From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 1 17:00:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29463A6866; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:00:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id DC25D3A6866; Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:00:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20081102000001.DC25D3A6866@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2008 17:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Update to the Language Subtag Registry Author(s) : D. Ewell Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt Pages : 948 Date : 2008-11-1 This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of RFC 4646bis [RFC EDITOR NOTE: replace with actual RFC number], for use in forming tags for identifying languages. As an Internet-Draft, it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the Registry to be used by IANA in updating it. To prevent confusion, this material was removed before publication. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-11-1165034.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:39:53 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67293A6A44; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074A13A6781 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:39:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LYedP73Xcu8o for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E983A6A29 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:39:52 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=EupDKz8mDrK8xkEqbYdeL/WC651sED7M+VpdOXarZlK7bWLC9oQ1Zj67FW1a8guQ; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwYUu-00028D-SG for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 03:39:49 -0500 Message-ID: <103901c93cc6$96bb0580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:39:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4d11189d4d3e3aee63b4f6add5a5efd69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] 4646bis-18 2.2.4 (4)(e) obfuscation X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... I've done a close reading of http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt On Page 15, in section 2.2.4 item (4) (e) we have: E. UN numeric codes and ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 codes for countries or areas listed as eligible for registration in Section 4 of [RFC4645] but not presently registered MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the process described in Section 3.5. Once registered, these codes MAY be used to form language tags. The Referenced text reads: 4. Omitted Code Elements The following code elements from [UN_M.49] were not associated with [ISO3166-1] alpha-2 code elements. Consequently, they were not assigned as subtags in the initial Language Subtag Registry, but were valid candidates for registration as region subtags, using the process in [RFC4646]: 830 Channel Islands 831 Guernsey 832 Jersey 833 Isle of Man The last three became ineligible for registration in April, 2006, when the [ISO3166-1] code elements GG, JE, and IM were assigned as region subtags. So it seems all this reduces down to the single case of 830? Couldn't we come up with a less convoluted formulation? I don't consider this a serious objection that should prevent our handing the document over to the IESG, but I would hope that more straightforward text might surface before IETF last call is over. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:14:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555CB3A6882; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:14:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A4FC3A68F8 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:14:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zoCxu85PaoVa for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:14:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3963A63CB for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:14:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=gXg8AthEnHR2TV0Sn/VxpQVO7wJWsr5ZBgaLmJs3FvdJ9kX7tA//POZvS95qhGEM; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZ2s-0007rb-53 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:14:54 -0500 Message-ID: <189a01c93ccb$79088940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:14:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4176fe6cf6875555eb5bee8bed5d86cf2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a co-chair and technical contributor... As part of a close reading of -18 draft of RFC 4646bis... In section 2.2.5 (page 16/17): Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' fields. The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of subtags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. That is, each of the subtags in the prefix SHOULD appear, in order, before the variant. For example, the subtag 'nedis' has a Prefix of "sl", making it suitable for forming language tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis", but not suitable for use in a tag such as "zh-nedis" or "it-IT-nedis". And on page 26 nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is- nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is not. And in section 3.1.8 on page 32 The 'Prefix' field contains an "extended language range" (see: [RFC4647]) whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag: each of the subtags in one of the subtag's Prefix fields SHOULD appear before the variant in a valid tag. For example, the variant subtag '1996' has a 'Prefix' field of "de". This means that tags starting with the sequence "de-" are appropriate with this subtag, so "de-Latg-1996" and "de-CH-1996" are both acceptable, while the tag "fr-1996" is an inappropriate choice. Three concerns: (1) I am somewhat concerned that the language discouraging use of variants with preceding subtags other that those enumerated in the Prefix fields is somewhat stronger than the sense of WG discussions, where the sentiment was repeatedly expressed that Prefix values were not intended to be *absolutely* limiting, but merely very strong advice, as is already reflected by the SHOULD language. (I think the "pinyin" discussion on ietf-languages is also instructive here.) I think this concern could be addressed in with the following replacement text: replace "not suitable for use" in 2.2.5 with -> "not meaningful", replace "appropriate" with "meaningful" in the cited passage on page 26, and in 3.1.8 replace "is an inappropriate choice" with "does not make sense." Or something like that. (2) When we reference extended language range from 4647, do we really mean to include the ability to say "-*", and, if so, what do we mean by it? (3) If we discount the possibility of "-*", then the baroque formulation "each of the subtags in one of the subtag's Prefix fields SHOULD appear before the variant in a valid tag" could be reduced to the slightly simpler "a valid tag employing the variant SHOULD begin with a sequence of subtags from one of the subtag's Prefix fields." I don't think any of these is a show-stopper, or should delay hand-off to the IESG. They could reasonably be handled as low-priority IETF last call comments, IMO. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:22:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B6CB3A695F; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:22:18 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80803A68F8 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:22:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7uainVxrVU-u for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:22:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 220663A6852 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:22:17 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=gttkk39PgKPEMax9gLLfrDwPMcxWYXHWjVLIATKPfSTiYoSmLaUaPHm+WF+pj4Ba; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZ9g-0001EI-7Z for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:21:56 -0500 Message-ID: <1ccb01c93ccc$74d23d20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:21:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e48063975b0b82891fbcaaa79beb005aa8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... In section 2.2.7 For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag "es-419-x-ldml- collatio-traditio", which indicates Latin American Spanish with traditional order for sorted lists. The example isn't an appropriate example, as it is not a language tag, but rather locale data. I suggest removing the example, as well as the corresponding informative reference UTS35. This is not a show-stopper comment before handoff to the IESG, but I hope it would be considered as part of the IETF last call. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:30:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B883A6825; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:30:10 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF4F3A6825 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:30:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RfKN4Y4lzouk for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:30:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26B43A63D3 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:30:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=EmwZcyxwXhGNpsppoccetJnzogvYOADsC74/4XiiHhGCzL8vp3e7vcNHVYhHhJo3; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZHZ-0004de-4o for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:30:05 -0500 Message-ID: <23f901c93ccd$97358880$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:30:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4ba0e770fc43fbd95c2644f933b86c8cf350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Section 3.1.1 currently says: The registry is a [Unicode] text file, using the UTF-8 [RFC3629] character encoding, and consists of a series of records stored in the record-jar format (described in [record-jar]). Each record, in turn, consists of a series of fields that describe the various subtags and tags. If the reference [record-jar] is truly normative, this document shouldn't be re-specifying the syntax. But I suspect more properly we should replace "stored in" with "based on", and move the reference [record-jar] from "normative" to "informative". This is not a show-stopper comment, but something I would hope would get addressed before RFC publication time. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:33:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A923A68A7; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:33:23 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BC6C3A68A7 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PAUnkDDoqoLi for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C902C3A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:33:21 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=c+EFYbnkNEJi+ULXmigyAQn17XHseCfMofRTmHf/dtcit2/ZoslEPBJO6zBILXaR; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZKi-0000fJ-44 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:33:20 -0500 Message-ID: <23ff01c93cce$11109a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:33:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e46bef60a9edfe12843cece705ae2a8acb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... In section 3.1.2 on Page 24: Each record MUST contain at least one of each of the following fields: It seems that the first few (Type, and Subtag or Tag) should occur exactly once, right? This is not a showstopper, but I'm sure we'll hear about it from whoever our next reviewer is. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:36:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AEE63A6999; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:36:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D82C3A63D3 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:36:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.854 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.854 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.744, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9f-GcGvF1e90 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:36:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0289A3A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:36:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=b8OIM6Dzzwp/Dpw2JQgsAx5kPiEH3t7EmfUbI2nUW7MYXbrA/ykTr0urTDukiLLc; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZNJ-0007XN-AS for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:36:01 -0500 Message-ID: <240501c93cce$713fb5a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:36:10 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e46e929b813a6a249f948c8e5440f7495d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... page 25/26: * Prefix's field-body contains a "entended language range" (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming language tag. The end of the sentence is broken - suggest replacing "when forming language tag" with "when using it to form a language tag" This is incredibly minor. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:38:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7D23A6882; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:38:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7D13A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:38:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.73 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.73 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.620, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fiz3RP39HbLv for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:38:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E383A6852 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:38:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=EOJAPkppEr0Ut6m5OtsWxT3G0NGmZSKSS6BwsYyh7PByNiNh6LYF0nA7JVrOnRYn; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZPN-0004OJ-C8 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:38:09 -0500 Message-ID: <240b01c93cce$bd6df7c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:38:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4c6e4a881efc4daed9ecb4956cf1c3d9e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 page 26 "either" lacks "or" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... On Page 26: * Macrolanguage's field-body contains a primary language subtag defined by ISO 639 as the "macrolanguage" that encompasses this language subtag. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either "language". either... or what? Very minor, but should be fixed before publication. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:42:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF1E3A6882; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:42:36 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137C73A6882 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:42:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.642 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.642 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.532, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YGdKP2KnQz7t for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:42:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 666A43A6852 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:42:34 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ScPOV4WIsLKZbH5iw728L71hzkcQ+EX4d9xFBDilncyP9sMkRbz8kF0r/qKpwC1t; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZTc-0004go-If for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:42:32 -0500 Message-ID: <241101c93ccf$59e2c360$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:42:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e485afe0158b04c00abfc637b2079c1562350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 Latg? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... The example "de-Latg-1996" appears. Wouldn't "de-Latf-1996" be less bizarre? This is spectacularly minor... Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:45:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 599CF3A68F8; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5066C3A68F8 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:45:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.650, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lP9KiZV+XWMa for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:45:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956953A68A7 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:45:02 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=GgvqGMzDESGkvFyE+keZy24lW3noY/q+i33oqq+/Af2JXcyTDcVJFAt7y1SiYQ1Y; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZVy-0008K7-PA for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:44:59 -0500 Message-ID: <241b01c93ccf$b1643100$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:45:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4379daf2460420ab265999d314b80c4d7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.2 mailing list address X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... In section 3.2, it would be nice to spell out the complete mailing list address as ietf-languages@iana.org Very minor nit. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:46:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BE03A68A7; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:46:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5093A68A7 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:46:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.503 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.503 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.393, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aSFng8yLRMdm for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:46:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36DA73A6882 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:46:56 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=LQ1qnpLxBzR6X7l/yd/e9gC+9Xh/+gRVhIyBD23RDkIejZn72PXMMHMjhCODNFEq; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZXq-0006iX-Ci for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:46:54 -0500 Message-ID: <242101c93ccf$f61c0ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:47:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4c2bbcc57e1c4bd7331a004c8215dc5c1350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 fragment in 3.4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Sentence Fragment in section 3.4 12 C 1 "For example, any language with a macrolanguage of 'zh' or 'ar'." Finish the sentence. This is spectacularly minor, and can be fixed the next time the document is opened for some other reason. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:49:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF9FD3A6882; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:49:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6206D3A6882 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:49:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.391, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mp+En9OeB5d0 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:49:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CBB3A6825 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:49:53 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=XmZW8KCI4F6CPKslxrjcCDQXma5cS1CmhWRpK213juCuyox6aWF/Ol9PJHFvqJOs; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZai-0005Gc-3K for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:49:52 -0500 Message-ID: <242701c93cd0$602e9720$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:50:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e47e3828ca3a147e1e1d5a4e84fa496f56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 5.1 URL X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... Including the URL for archived forms seems a bit of over-specification. It should be enough to let IANA know they should make the information available; we shouldn't be spelling out their web site organization. This is rather minor, but I think we should have agreed on what we want to do before handing it over to IANA. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:52:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1093A695F; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:52:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B153A6882 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:52:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.314 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.314 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.574, BAYES_20=-0.74] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2AWz8aSzXK3B for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:52:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CEC3A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:52:19 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=iU4swWna0MI9ZZfiLg4K3YZgayACTAWQ6e4i0NSRznZF14Hbqky1o2o1uCatU+yW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZd3-0003JK-Pq for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:52:18 -0500 Message-ID: <242d01c93cd0$b6efc200$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:52:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4c4f590ee8abcf4563ba2727f7485498e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 CLDR example X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contribtor... Page 61 currently cites CLDR in an example, but gives no reference. Remove the example (my preference) or add the informational reference. Stupendously minor. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 01:56:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 034103A6999; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:56:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4C33A6999 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:56:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.403, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id USs5uRjCiwt5 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87EB63A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 01:56:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=grcFQAa+IUPd54R3nm/JYNtnfd7QwDR6Wbe6BW8aU3c3UFGYODsA0cQGbzEtAXLV; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZgp-0005Pe-RC for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:56:12 -0500 Message-ID: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:56:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4097bc0f508aae78f8c739034e90431f3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... In section 4.1 are a couple of cases where key word capitalization should be checked. 4.1 4 1 says: 1. Collections are interpreted inclusively, so the subtag 'gem' (Germanic langauges) could, but should not, be used with content that would be better tagged with "en" (English), "de" (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic). While 'gem' collects all of these (and other) languages, most implementations will not match 'gem' to the individual languages; thus using the subtag will not produce the desired result. "should not" -> "SHOULD NOT" 4.1 5 says * The 'und' (Undetermined) primary language subtag identifies linguistic content whose language is not determined. This subtag SHOULD NOT be used unless a language tag is required and language information is not available or cannot be determined. Omitting the language tag (where permitted) is preferred. The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols that require a language tag to be provided or where a primary language subtag is required (such as in "und-Latn"). The 'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language tags in certain situations. "MAY" -> "might" Minor, but I'm certain other reviewers will bumpt into this as well. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 02:11:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35AE128C101; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:11:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB79B3A692F for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:11:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j3jZws03QK6e for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:11:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B031428C0F3 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:11:21 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qYZ+sG+uyYcwr/NvGQXRjaUvE+v14r5wZrrqLvsn7XNIdumTWQEdjvZRQGRs33z1; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZvT-0002xd-Vr for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:11:20 -0500 Message-ID: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 03:11:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4156f440477d6380b16b50630cfdb79cb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... On page 46 we have: Registrations initiated due to the provisions of Section 3.3 or Section 3.4 SHALL NOT be rejected altogether (since they have to ultimately appear in the registry) and SHOULD be completed as quickly as possible. The review process allows list members to comment on the specific information in the form and the record it contains and thus help ensure that it is correct and consistent. The Language Subtag Reviewer MAY reject a specific version of the form, but MUST propose a suitable replacement, extending the review period as described above, until the form is in a format worthy of reviewer's approval and meets with rough consensus of the list. The phrase "SHALL NOT be rejected" really seems broken, since we have specific conditions under which registrations MUST be rejected. Propose deleting the first sentence. Likewise, the "MUST propose a suitable replacement" assumes such a thing is possible. Suggest replacing "MUST" with "SHOULD", and deleting everything from "until" to the end of the sentence. I think this is a fairly significant bug, but would like to hear what others think the intended meaning is. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 02:14:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BE4F3A6872; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:14:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2443A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:14:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.346, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m5vGumBhWxfl for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:14:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18CA23A63CB for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:14:48 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=nmhKfK6PwdrZvB7Z/MQjLxIHIrRf3TbPT+ktA5adQqm1OSQyUVhHbDahI8VelaNW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwZym-00061m-61 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:14:44 -0500 Message-ID: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 03:14:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4119f0c08d31ce5d10356996985a01334350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... In section 3.1.7 Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred in certain contexts. For example, both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java programming language, but "he" is converted on input to "iw", which is thus the canonical form in Java. This example of a programming environment idosyncracy isn't helpful. Suggest deleting it, as what is "preferred" isn't an application of the BCP. Very minor. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 02:47:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3043A695F; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:47:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBDC93A695F for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:46:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.322, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SSDeCB8rSnzG for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:46:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 920493A6844 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:46:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=GWsSCVhFRjasvPF2GueOTp+R7SyX86WbIJ3phoViKcs3I/32UApGKtBDtqJAKzzR; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.137.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwaTw-0002Po-LU for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 05:46:56 -0500 Message-ID: <2ed201c93cd8$580820e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 03:47:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e40cb0ab3fa3537f3a2709e0c8cadc2bf0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.137.100 Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 propageted subtag churn X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... We seem to lose sight of the spirit of section 3.4 13 13. Codes assigned by ISO 15924 and ISO 3166-1 that do not conflict with existing subtags of the associated type and whose meaning is not the same as an existing subtag of the same type are entered into the IANA registry as new records. in the example in section 3.1.7: 2. Subtags (with types other than language or extlang) taken from codes or values that have been withdrawn in favor of a new code. In particular, this applies to region subtags taken from ISO 3166-1, because sometimes a country will change its name or administration in such a way that warrants a new region code. In some cases, countries have reverted to an older name, which might already be encoded. For example, the subtag 'ZR' (Zaire) was replaced by the subtag 'CD' (Democratic Republic of the Congo) when that country's name was changed. and Section 3.4 14: 14. Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166-1 that are withdrawn by their respective maintenance or registration authority remain valid in language tags. A 'Deprecated' field containing the date of withdrawal MUST be added to the record. If a new record of the same type is added that represents a replacement value, then a 'Preferred-Value' field MAY also be added. The registration process MAY be used to add comments about the withdrawal of the code by the respective standard. For example: the region code 'TL' was assigned to the country 'Timor-Leste', replacing the code 'TP' (which was assigned to 'East Timor' when it was under administration by Portugal). The subtag 'TP' remains valid in language tags, but its record contains the a 'Preferred-Value' of 'TL' and its field 'Deprecated' contains the date the new code was assigned ('2004-07-06'). It is much better for the stability of language tags to *NOT* propagate such churn. Our philosophy at the outset was to use various specs as sources of codes, not to somehow mirror them as they evolved in ways potentially incompatible with useful language tagging practices. The current language permits the LSR to not propagate the changes, but one needs to squint really hard to see it - the text we have now makes it easier to do the wrong thing than the right. When ISO produces a new code that means exactly the same thing as something already in the registry, it seems to me that the correct thing to do is to create an entry for the *new* code with a status of "deprecated" and a preferred-value pointing to the *old* code. I wouldn't suggest going back and trying to fix the ones that are already messed up, but do think some guidance for the future would be helpful. (BTW, there is an editorial "the a" to be fixed in 3.4.14) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 07:23:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07D4E3A688B; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 07:23:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382563A688B for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 07:23:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.742, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JicLBIygKV38 for ; 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charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IHBhZ2UgMjUvMjY6Cj4gICAgICAqICBQcmVmaXgncyBmaWVsZC1ib2R5 IGNvbnRhaW5zIGEgImVudGVuZGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlIHJhbmdlIgo+ICAgICAgICAgKGJhc2ljYWxs eSwgYSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHN1YnRhZ3MsIHNlZSBbUkZDNDY0N10pIHdoaWNoCj4gICAgICAg ICBTSE9VTEQgYmUgdXNlZCB3aXRoIHRoaXMgc3VidGFnIHdoZW4gZm9ybWluZyBsYW5ndWFnZSB0 YWcuCj4KPiBUaGUgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBzZW50ZW5jZSBpcyBicm9rZW4gLSBzdWdnZXN0Cj4gcmVw bGFjaW5nICJ3aGVuIGZvcm1pbmcgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIiB3aXRoCj4gIndoZW4gdXNpbmcgaXQg dG8gZm9ybSBhIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZyIKPgo+IFRoaXMgaXMgaW5jcmVkaWJseSBtaW5vci4KCkV2 ZW4gbW9yZSBtaW5vciBpcyB0aGUgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb24gdGhhdCAiZW50ZW5kZWQiIGluIHRoZSBj aXRlZCBleGFtcGxlIApzaG91bGQgYmUgImV4dGVuZGVkLCIgdW5sZXNzLCBvZiBjb3Vyc2UsIHRo ZSB3b3JkIHdhcyBjaG9zZW4gCmVudGVudGlvbmFsbHkuCgpJJ20gcHJldHR5IHN1cmUgSSByZXBv cnRlZCB0aGlzIG9uZSBiZWZvcmUuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3Jh ZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpo dHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6 Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoK X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 08:17:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6454C3A68D1; 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02 Nov 2008 16:17:24 -0000 Message-ID: <1A3ABD71B3F34B54A001B0A6F6F129DC@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:17:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 propageted subtag churn X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEl0IGlzIG11Y2ggYmV0dGVyIGZvciB0aGUgc3RhYmlsaXR5IG9mIGxh bmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MgdG8gKk5PVCogCj4gcHJvcGFnYXRlIHN1Y2ggY2h1cm4uICBPdXIgcGhpbG9z b3BoeSBhdCB0aGUgb3V0c2V0IHdhcyB0byB1c2UgdmFyaW91cyAKPiBzcGVjcyBhcyBzb3VyY2Vz IG9mIGNvZGVzLCBub3QgdG8gc29tZWhvdyBtaXJyb3IgdGhlbSBhcyB0aGV5IGV2b2x2ZWQgCj4g aW4gd2F5cyBwb3RlbnRpYWxseSBpbmNvbXBhdGlibGUgd2l0aCB1c2VmdWwgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFn Z2luZyAKPiBwcmFjdGljZXMuICBUaGUgY3VycmVudCBsYW5ndWFnZSBwZXJtaXRzIHRoZSBMU1Ig dG8gbm90IHByb3BhZ2F0ZSB0aGUgCj4gY2hhbmdlcywgYnV0IG9uZSBuZWVkcyB0byBzcXVpbnQg cmVhbGx5IGhhcmQgdG8gc2VlIGl0IC0gdGhlIHRleHQgd2UgCj4gaGF2ZSBub3cgbWFrZXMgaXQg ZWFzaWVyIHRvIGRvIHRoZSB3cm9uZyB0aGluZyB0aGFuIHRoZSByaWdodC4KCkknbSBzdXJwcmlz ZWQgdG8gc2VlIHRoaXMgY29tZSB1cCBub3cuICBJdCBzZWVtcyB0byBtZSB3ZSBkaXNjdXNzZWQg aXQgCnF1aXRlIGEgYml0IGR1cmluZyBib3RoIExUUlUgSSBhbmQgTFRSVSBJSSwgaW5jbHVkaW5n IHRoZSBmYW1lZCAiRGF0ZSBBIiAKYW5kICJEYXRlIEIiIG1pbGVzdG9uZXMuCgpPbmUgb2YgdGhl IG1haW4gcmVhc29ucyBmb3Igc3RhcnRpbmcgdGhlIExUUlUgcHJvamVjdCA1IHllYXJzIGFnbyB3 YXMgdG8gCmluc3VsYXRlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ2dpbmcgZnJvbSBncmF0dWl0b3VzIGNodXJuIGlu IHRoZSBjb3JlIHN0YW5kYXJkcywgCmFuZCBpbiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIGZyb20gYmFkIGlkZWFzIGxp a2UgcmVkZWZpbmluZyBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzIGFmdGVyIDUgCnllYXJzLiAgKElTTyAzMTY2IGhh cyBmaXhlZCB0aGlzIG5vdywgYnV0IHRoYXQgd2FzIG5vdCB0aGUgY2FzZSBpbiAKMjAwMy4pICBU aGVuLCBhdCBzb21lIHBvaW50LCBpdCBiZWNhbWUgdmVyeSBpbXBvcnRhbnQgZm9yIHNvbWUgcGVv cGxlIHRvIApiZSBhYmxlIHRvCgooYSkgdHJhY2UgdGhlICJleGFjdCBtZWFuaW5nIiBvZiB0aGUg c3VidGFnIGJhY2sgdG8gdGhlIGNvcmUgc3RhbmRhcmRzLCAKZXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggbW9zdCBvZiB0 aGUgY29yZSBzdGFuZGFyZHMgZG9uJ3QgZGVmaW5lIHRoZSBleGFjdCBtZWFuaW5nIAplaXRoZXIs IGFuZAoKKGIpIHVzZSB0aGUgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgU3VidGFnIFJlZ2lzdHJ5IGFzIGEgY2VudHJhbCBj b2RlIGxpc3QgZm9yIHB1cnBvc2VzIApoYXZpbmcgbm90aGluZyB0byBkbyB3aXRoIGxhbmd1YWdl IHRhZ2dpbmcgKHdoaWNoIGlzIHdoeSB3ZSBoYXZlICJFVSIgCmFuZCBvdGhlciB1bmFzc2lnbmVk IElTTyAzMTY2IGNvZGUgZWxlbWVudHMpLgoKVGhvc2UgYWRkaXRpb25hbCByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMg Y2F1c2VkIHVzIHRvIGNvbXByb21pc2Ugb3VyIG9yaWdpbmFsIApwaGlsb3NvcGh5IHRvIHNvbWUg ZXh0ZW50LgoKPiBJIHdvdWxkbid0IHN1Z2dlc3QgZ29pbmcgYmFjayBhbmQgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGZp eCB0aGUgb25lcyB0aGF0IGFyZSAKPiBhbHJlYWR5IG1lc3NlZCB1cCwgYnV0IGRvIHRoaW5rIHNv bWUgZ3VpZGFuY2UgZm9yIHRoZSBmdXR1cmUgd291bGQgYmUgCj4gaGVscGZ1bC4KCidaUicgd2Fz IGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgaW4gZmF2b3Igb2YgJ0NEJyBkdWUgdG8gdGhlIERhdGUgQS9EYXRlIEIgcnVs ZXMsIAp3aGljaCBJIHRob3VnaHQgd2VyZSBjbGVhciBhbmQgd2VsbCB1bmRlcnN0b29kIGFuZCBk aWQgaW5zdWxhdGUgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgCnRhZ2dpbmcgZnJvbSB1bm5lY2Vzc2FyeSBjaHVybi4gIFdo YXQgaXMgbmV3IGlzIHRoZSBzdWdnZXN0aW9uIHRvIApyZS1hZG9wdCAnWlInIGFuZCBkZXByZWNh dGUgJ0NEJyBpbiBmYXZvciBvZiAnWlInIGluIGNhc2UgdGhlIERlbW9jcmF0aWMgClJlcHVibGlj IG9mIHRoZSBDb25nbyBnb2VzIGJhY2sgdG8gYmVpbmcgY2FsbGVkICJaYWlyZS4iICBUaGF0IGlz IGR1ZSB0byAKdGhlIGNvbXByb21pc2UuICBJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggUmFuZHkncyB2aWV3cG9pbnQs IGFuZCBkaWQgYXQgdGhlIHRpbWUgaXQgCndhcyBkaXNjdXNzZWQsIGJ1dCBkaWQgbm90IG1hbmFn ZSB0byBjb252aW5jZSB0aGUgcmVzdCBvZiB0aGUgV0cgYW5kIApoYXZlIG5vdCBlbGVjdGVkIHRv IGNvbnRpbnVlIGZpZ2h0aW5nIHRoaXMgbG9zaW5nIGNhdXNlLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAg VGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93 d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNo YXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRm LWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 09:12:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A00E3A6822; 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Received: from [69.3.144.48] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwgV5-0001rI-Es for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:12:31 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c93d0e$394c2da0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 10:12:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4e3d673f5c8c186862a8d4b89fb46bcc6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.144.48 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 8:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > page 25/26: > > * Prefix's field-body contains a "entended language range" > > (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which > > SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming language tag. > > > > The end of the sentence is broken - suggest > > replacing "when forming language tag" with > > "when using it to form a language tag" > > > > This is incredibly minor. > > Even more minor is the observation that "entended" in the cited example > should be "extended," unless, of course, the word was chosen > ententionally. ... And, BTW, "a" should be "an". I guess that comes from looking at things with my reading glasses on. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 09:22:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A653A67D0; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:22:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2963A680C for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:22:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1w6zB1IEqyLE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC5E3A67A7 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 09:22:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwgeN-0004im-VY; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 12:22:08 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 12:22:07 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081102172207.GB17068@mercury.ccil.org> References: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred in certain contexts. > For example, both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java programming > language, but "he" is converted on input to "iw", which is thus the > canonical form in Java. > > This example of a programming environment idosyncracy isn't helpful. I think it's quite helpful, showing a Real World context where one might continue to use a deprecated code indefinitely. -- "Well, I'm back." --Sam John Cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 11:07:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098533A6B06; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:07:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB5473A6B06 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:06:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CU5bt35BI3z0 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:06:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDB0F3A6B03 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:06:57 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,530,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73222743" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Nov 2008 19:06:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA2J6sot016195 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:06:55 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:06:54 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:06:51 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage Thread-Index: Ack8y3zjNrR6B5TKQvebvtMsDHe2OwAUTN9g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBF8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <189a01c93ccb$79088940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <189a01c93ccb$79088940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Editor hat OFF) > > Three concerns: > (1) I am somewhat concerned that the language discouraging > use of variants with preceding subtags other that those > enumerated in the Prefix fields is somewhat stronger > than the sense of WG discussions, where the sentiment > was repeatedly expressed that Prefix values were not > intended to be *absolutely* limiting, but merely very > strong advice, as is already reflected by the SHOULD > language. (I think the "pinyin" discussion on ietf-languages > is also instructive here.) > > I think this concern could be addressed in with > the following replacement text: replace "not suitable > for use" in 2.2.5 with -> "not meaningful", replace > "appropriate" with "meaningful" in the cited passage > on page 26, and in 3.1.8 replace "is an inappropriate > choice" with "does not make sense." Or something like that. That's a possible way to address it. I believe that the language was intended to be fairly strong advice. > > > (2) When we reference extended language range from 4647, do we > really mean to include the ability to say "-*", and, if so, > what do we mean by it? "something-*" doesn't have any meaning in an extended language range, or, rather, it doesn't affect the meaning. What we mean by extended language range is: if you have a 'Prefix' of "zh-CN" for a subtag "barbaz", that means tags such as "zh-Brai-CN-barbaz" and "zh-cmn-CN-barbaz" are included by the Prefix. Trailing or interstitial "*" wildcards don't mean anything. But I think your comment probably means the special range "*" (or any range beginning with "*"). We should probably prohibit those ranges: "*" means the same thing as omitting the prefix and the others run counter to existing practice. Although I do note that this would allow variants that modify script or region rather than strictly the primary language. > > (3) If we discount the possibility of "-*", then the baroque > formulation "each of the subtags in one of the subtag's > Prefix fields SHOULD appear before the variant in a valid > tag" could be reduced to the slightly simpler "a valid tag > employing the variant SHOULD begin with a sequence > of subtags from one of the subtag's Prefix fields." But it is NOT just "begin". The point of using extrange was that there can be interstitial subtags. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 11:19:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B2B3A6B3B; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:19:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4059A3A6B3A for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:19:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GlPFEGmWT2Q9 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F7483A6B23 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:19:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwiTP-0008TX-OV; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 14:18:55 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 14:18:55 -0500 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20081102191855.GE17068@mercury.ccil.org> References: <189a01c93ccb$79088940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBF8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBF8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > But I think your comment probably means the special range "*" (or any > range beginning with "*"). We should probably prohibit those ranges: "*" > means the same thing as omitting the prefix and the others run counter > to existing practice. Although I do note that this would allow variants > that modify script or region rather than strictly the primary language. Let's not go there; better to prohibit '*' in all Prefix: fields. -- But the next day there came no dawn, John Cowan and the Grey Company passed on into the cowan@ccil.org darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were http://www.ccil.org/~cowan lost to mortal sight; but the Dead followed them. --"The Passing of the Grey Company" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 11:32:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05CA3A6834; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:32:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB68C3A6834 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:32:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pUaHRvMtH2P9 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:32:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD3EB3A67E6 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:32:01 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,530,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73230276" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Nov 2008 19:31:20 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA2JVKdC018303 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:31:20 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:31:19 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:30:26 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:31:17 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage Thread-Index: Ack9H94CFkWWdJDeRAKPxrbzTlSd/wAAXzGg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBFF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <189a01c93ccb$79088940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBF8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20081102191855.GE17068@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081102191855.GE17068@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) I have opened a new editor's copy for draft-19. Addressing the below as well as Doug/Randy's comments about the typo in this section, I added a new bit of MUSTard to the section on Prefix as follows: -- Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a collection of subtags, see ) which SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is not. -- Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:19 AM > To: Phillips, Addison > Cc: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage > > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > But I think your comment probably means the special range "*" (or > any > > range beginning with "*"). We should probably prohibit those > ranges: "*" > > means the same thing as omitting the prefix and the others run > counter > > to existing practice. Although I do note that this would allow > variants > > that modify script or region rather than strictly the primary > language. > > Let's not go there; better to prohibit '*' in all Prefix: fields. > > -- > But the next day there came no dawn, John Cowan > and the Grey Company passed on into the cowan@ccil.org > darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > lost to mortal sight; but the Dead > followed them. --"The Passing of the Grey Company" _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 11:34:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134F83A6834; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:34:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC8CB3A6975 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:34:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ltbcqEWEdQGa for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:34:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D80C23A67E6 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:34:01 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,530,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73230725" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 02 Nov 2008 19:32:54 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA2JWpjS010777; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:32:52 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:32:51 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:31:58 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 11:32:49 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 Thread-Index: Ack8/vyhFjFZiEh7QcmG1YAjHRENxwAIq1RQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT04pDQoNCkRPTkUuIE5vdGUgdGhhdCBJIG1pc3NlZCBhZGRpbmcgdGhlIGFy dGljbGUgdG8gImZvcm1pbmcgXnRoZV4gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIiBpbiB0aGUgbGFzdCBtZXNzYWdl LiBOb3cgcmVhZHM6DQoNCi0tDQo8dD5QcmVmaXgncyBmaWVsZC1ib2R5IGNvbnRhaW5zIGEgImV4 dGVuZGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlIHJhbmdlIiAoYmFzaWNhbGx5LCBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gb2Ygc3VidGFn cywgc2VlIDx4cmVmIHRhcmdldD0iUkZDNDY0NyI+PC94cmVmPikgd2hpY2ggU0hPVUxEIGJlIHVz ZWQgd2l0aCB0aGlzIHN1YnRhZyB3aGVuIGZvcm1pbmcgdGhlIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZy4gVGhlIHN1 YnRhZ3MgaW4gdGhlIHByZWZpeCBNVVNUIGFwcGVhciBiZWZvcmUgdGhlIHN1YnRhZyBpbiBQcmVm aXgncyByZWNvcmQuIFRoZSBQcmVmaXggTVVTVCBOT1QgaW5jbHVkZSB0aGUgd2lsZGNhcmQgJyon LiBUaGlzIGZpZWxkIE1VU1QgYXBwZWFyIG9ubHkgaW4gcmVjb3JkcyB3aG9zZSAnVHlwZScgZmll bGQtYm9keSBpcyBlaXRoZXIgJ2V4dGxhbmcnIG9yICd2YXJpYW50Jy4gPHZzcGFjZSBibGFua0xp bmVzPSIxIi8+Rm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSB2YXJpYW50ICduZWRpcycgKE5hZGl6YSBkaWFsZWN0 KSBoYXMgYSAnUHJlZml4JyBvZiAic2wiIChTbG92ZW5pYW4pLCBtZWFuaW5nIHRoYXQgdGFncyBz dWNoIGFzICJzbC1uZWRpcyIgYW5kICJzbC1JVC1uZWRpcyIgYXJlIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlLCB3aGls ZSB0aGUgdGFnICJpcy1uZWRpcyIgKEljZWxhbmRpYywgTmFkaXphIGRpYWxlY3QpIGlzIG5vdC48 L3Q+DQotLQ0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBM YWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFu IGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206 IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24N Cj4gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERvdWcgRXdlbGwNCj4gU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBOb3ZlbWJlciAwMiwgMjAw OCA3OjIzIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1 XSByZmM0NjQ2YmlzLTE4IGJyb2tlbiBzZW50ZW5jZSBvbiBwYWdlcyAyNS0yNg0KPiANCj4gUmFu ZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90IGNv bT4NCj4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiA+IHBhZ2UgMjUvMjY6DQo+ID4gICAgICAqICBQcmVmaXgncyBm aWVsZC1ib2R5IGNvbnRhaW5zIGEgImVudGVuZGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlIHJhbmdlIg0KPiA+ICAgICAg ICAgKGJhc2ljYWxseSwgYSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHN1YnRhZ3MsIHNlZSBbUkZDNDY0N10pIHdo aWNoDQo+ID4gICAgICAgICBTSE9VTEQgYmUgdXNlZCB3aXRoIHRoaXMgc3VidGFnIHdoZW4gZm9y bWluZyBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWcuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGUgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBzZW50ZW5jZSBpcyBi cm9rZW4gLSBzdWdnZXN0DQo+ID4gcmVwbGFjaW5nICJ3aGVuIGZvcm1pbmcgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFn IiB3aXRoDQo+ID4gIndoZW4gdXNpbmcgaXQgdG8gZm9ybSBhIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZyINCj4gPg0K PiA+IFRoaXMgaXMgaW5jcmVkaWJseSBtaW5vci4NCj4gDQo+IEV2ZW4gbW9yZSBtaW5vciBpcyB0 aGUgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb24gdGhhdCAiZW50ZW5kZWQiIGluIHRoZSBjaXRlZA0KPiBleGFtcGxlDQo+ IHNob3VsZCBiZSAiZXh0ZW5kZWQsIiB1bmxlc3MsIG9mIGNvdXJzZSwgdGhlIHdvcmQgd2FzIGNo b3Nlbg0KPiBlbnRlbnRpb25hbGx5Lg0KPiANCj4gSSdtIHByZXR0eSBzdXJlIEkgcmVwb3J0ZWQg dGhpcyBvbmUgYmVmb3JlLg0KPiANCj4gLS0NCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENv bG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0DQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxp Yy5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIu aHRtbA0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxh bmd1YWdlcyAgy4YNCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYu b3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 15:50:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D7FF28C125; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:50:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0D7B28C125 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:50:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.67 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.67 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.930, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xIoKopWR5xxi for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:50:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030DA28C100 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:50:12 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=MJ4SfOEFS+T0lCMKgckz65uRrfFUJZF1andkoXuxcNP63IyoxJ8RdGfcWaodChU8; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.83.178] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwmhr-0002ZF-EF; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 18:50:08 -0500 Message-ID: <001201c93d45$c63a0a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "John Cowan" References: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081102172207.GB17068@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:50:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4a48dac8d4bfe7ffa94b80e1778fd7d50350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.83.178 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 10:22 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred in certain contexts. > > For example, both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java programming > > language, but "he" is converted on input to "iw", which is thus the > > canonical form in Java. > > > > This example of a programming environment idosyncracy isn't helpful. > > I think it's quite helpful, showing a Real World context where > one might continue to use a deprecated code indefinitely. But is it *really* a BCP 47 language tag, or merely a code used in the Java environment that happens to look like one? If these things aren't tru BCP 47 tags, we shouldnt be talking about them. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 15:53:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADFE83A6969; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:53:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46BF13A6969 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:53:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XUDq8RLpjHZI for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:53:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 828653A6920 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 15:53:28 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=VySplAgn37Hu2pC0X2qL8aChMTXWWqa7WK6RW7uSecfPZ51i6+a/CK+eB4q33vAG; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.83.178] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwml2-0000Wt-9S for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 18:53:24 -0500 Message-ID: <001f01c93d46$3ba8e7e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e47d2f4794f28cf15f031efe3fc7af996c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.83.178 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Doug Ewell" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:32 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 > > (editor hat ON) > > DONE. Note that I missed adding the article to "forming ^the^ language tag" in the last message. Now reads: > > -- > Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" ... As a technical contributor, I still think "a" should be "an" here. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:11:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533503A699F; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:11:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF1B3A67EE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:11:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q69NwM9UIOPa for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:11:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EDB3A6B11 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:11:24 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,531,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73305442" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:11:22 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30BLdc029547 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:11:22 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:11:21 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:11:18 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 Thread-Index: Ack9RjsSR9R23cVSQ3yOl0BT7oH4NwAAnMMQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC81@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC04@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001f01c93d46$3ba8e7e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001f01c93d46$3ba8e7e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Argh. Yes. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 3:54 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 > > Hi - > > > From: "Phillips, Addison" > > To: "Doug Ewell" ; "LTRU Working Group" > > > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 12:32 PM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 > > > > (editor hat ON) > > > > DONE. Note that I missed adding the article to "forming ^the^ > language tag" in the last message. Now reads: > > > > -- > > Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" > ... > > As a technical contributor, I still think "a" should be "an" here. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:16:27 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12C93A67FA; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:16:27 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C6CE3A67EE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:16:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.539 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.539 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1hiv0nz+sZis for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:16:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3C13A67FA for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:16:26 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,531,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73306303" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:16:24 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30GLL1014562; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:16:21 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:16:20 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:16:18 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.1 Thread-Index: Ack8zZ0QXb3bQveUSk+J6GsF/zIL9QAe0JDw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC83@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <23f901c93ccd$97358880$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <23f901c93ccd$97358880$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.1 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat OFF). I'm not sure that this text changed from 4646. (editor hat ON) I changed the text to read: -- The registry is a text file, using the UTF-8 character encoding, and consists of a series of records stored in a format based on "record-jar" (described in ). -- Note that Art of Unix Programming is not now a normative reference. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:30 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.1 > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > Section 3.1.1 currently says: > > The registry is a [Unicode] text file, using the UTF-8 [RFC3629] > character encoding, and consists of a series of records stored > in the > record-jar format (described in [record-jar]). Each record, in > turn, > consists of a series of fields that describe the various subtags > and > tags. > > If the reference [record-jar] is truly normative, this document > shouldn't > be re-specifying the syntax. But I suspect more properly we should > replace "stored in" with "based on", and move the reference > [record-jar] from "normative" to "informative". > > This is not a show-stopper comment, but something I would hope > would get addressed before RFC publication time. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:18:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3F783A67FA; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:18:44 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 052293A67FA for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:18:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6O2InxC1lq3J for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:18:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401453A67EE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,531,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="131450519" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:18:37 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30IZAN006157 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:18:36 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:18:35 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:17:42 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:18:33 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" Thread-Index: Ack8zhBUTyMO3dyXSde7DV2xgWmUOAAe3Wrg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC84@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <23ff01c93cce$11109a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <23ff01c93cce$11109a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat OFF) Why? It is a true statement. Perhaps it is not a complete statement to require at least one (and then later restrict some to exactly one). How would you address it? Should I make one block of exactly-ones and then include the one "at least one" case in a separate blocking following? Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:33 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > In section 3.1.2 on Page 24: > Each record MUST contain at least one of each of the following > fields: > > It seems that the first few (Type, and Subtag or Tag) should > occur exactly once, right? > > This is not a showstopper, but I'm sure we'll hear about it > from whoever our next reviewer is. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:31:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EB7E3A6A12; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8A403A63CB for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gz8GesjDCZme for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25EB3A6C05 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:20 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,531,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="131452419" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:31:18 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30VH4F008929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:31:18 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:17 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:30:24 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:15 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 page 26 "either" lacks "or" Thread-Index: Ack8zrtE1XXcYUVVSKWAOpMwo1kYnQAfLXGw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC8C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <240b01c93cce$bd6df7c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <240b01c93cce$bd6df7c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 page 26 "either" lacks "or" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) Missing the "or "extlang""... now corrected. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:38 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 page 26 "either" lacks "or" > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > On Page 26: > > * Macrolanguage's field-body contains a primary language > subtag > defined by ISO 639 as the "macrolanguage" that encompasses > this > language subtag. This field MUST appear only in records > whose > 'Type' field-body is either "language". > > either... or what? > > Very minor, but should be fixed before publication. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:31:58 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 734063A6834; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5432B3A6834 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yoY2cKR7GOLs for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435F33A6806 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:56 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,531,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73308586" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:31:54 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30Vr07029139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:31:54 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:53 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:31:51 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 Latg? Thread-Index: Ack8z1bo/Lfh0SGtRPOYr/gtb3jcuAAfDPTA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC8D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <241101c93ccf$59e2c360$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <241101c93ccf$59e2c360$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 Latg? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) DONE. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:43 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 Latg? > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > The example "de-Latg-1996" appears. > Wouldn't "de-Latf-1996" be less bizarre? > > This is spectacularly minor... > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:41:30 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A84D93A6B8B; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:41:30 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27EE3A6829 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:41:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.556 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.556 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NoSVvbMP7xC3 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9449D3A6B8B for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:40:50 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,532,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73309514" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:40:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30el0N013132; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:40:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:40:47 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:40:45 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.2 mailing list address Thread-Index: Ack8z6/UQj6z3PfOTzKLJ7LRYHsmqAAfRNOw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC96@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <241b01c93ccf$b1643100$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <241b01c93ccf$b1643100$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.2 mailing list address X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) DONE. I expanded most versions to be the complete address. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:45 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.2 mailing list address > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > In section 3.2, it would be nice to spell out the > complete mailing list address as ietf-languages@iana.org > > Very minor nit. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:44:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D67E73A6B63; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:44:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1EC3A6B63 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:44:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.562 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.562 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sSiql-xZPa1x for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:44:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52C13A6B5F for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:44:09 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,532,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="154131098" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:44:07 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30i6hA017136; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:44:06 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:44:06 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:43:13 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:44:04 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 fragment in 3.4 Thread-Index: Ack8z/M26OM8uk7ZTVik+dCDXgPiFwAfUlqA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC99@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <242101c93ccf$f61c0ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <242101c93ccf$f61c0ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 fragment in 3.4 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON). DONE. Para now reads: If a language has a macrolanguage mapping, and that macrolanguage has other encompassed languages that are assigned extended language subtags, then the new language SHOULD have an 'extlang' record assigned to it as well. For example, any language with a macrolanguage of 'zh' or 'ar' would be assigned an 'extlang' record. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:47 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 fragment in 3.4 > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > Sentence Fragment in section 3.4 12 C 1 > "For example, any language with a macrolanguage > of 'zh' or 'ar'." > > Finish the sentence. > > This is spectacularly minor, and can be fixed the > next time the document is opened for some other > reason. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:47:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 867CA3A6B73; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:47:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E733A6B82 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:47:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3CP5wH22dzVH for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:47:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A0833A6C08 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:45:42 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,532,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="131454346" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:45:40 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30jdw9015007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:45:40 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:45:39 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:45:37 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization Thread-Index: Ack80T7n+NJu4uMGSHCbNDe3VcKCaQAfCnKQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > preferred. The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols > that > require a language tag to be provided or where a primary > language subtag is required (such as in "und-Latn"). The > 'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language > tags in > certain situations. > > "MAY" -> "might" Clarification: do you mean both "MAY" items (above) or just the latter? Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 16:53:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69A003A6BE2; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:18 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8108B3A6A7C for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.566 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.566 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qfwt1st+taVb for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F95928C162 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:16 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,532,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73310823" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 00:53:12 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA30rA6C024071 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 3 Nov 2008 00:53:10 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:09 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 16:53:07 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" Thread-Index: Ack804G3Ma3sk1d6RYuUjO4fFBQwawAeh8GA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat OFF) > > The phrase "SHALL NOT be rejected" really seems broken, since we > have specific conditions under which registrations MUST be rejected. Actually, we don't. We have specific cases in which the reviewer might not accept a specific version of the proposed record. However, the I-D compels him/her to make the registration. That's the point. > Propose deleting the first sentence. Likewise, the "MUST propose > a suitable replacement" assumes such a thing is possible. Such a thing must be possible: this section covers cases which are all ISO changes required by the I-D. Technically unacceptable records are already dealt with. > Suggest > replacing "MUST" with "SHOULD", and deleting everything from > "until" to the end of the sentence. Actually, I would say that I don't care for the text that permits indefinite extensions, except to note that this is what the appeals process is for. > > I think this is a fairly significant bug, but would like to hear > what others think the intended meaning is. > Is there a case where a compulsory registration cannot be suitably formatted for inclusion? Is there a case in which the reviewer (or his/her "official proxy" and/or Doug) cannot provide a suitable substitute? I think that's really what you're asking here. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 18:40:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B2128C21E; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:40:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA32628C1F2 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:40:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r7tZkoeEHBT4 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:40:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0EE828C25E for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:40:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KwpMv-00009H-QY; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:40:41 -0500 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:40:41 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081103024041.GG17068@mercury.ccil.org> References: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081102172207.GB17068@mercury.ccil.org> <001201c93d45$c63a0a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001201c93d45$c63a0a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > But is it *really* a BCP 47 language tag, or merely a code used > in the Java environment that happens to look like one? Sure it is: it just happens for hysterical raisins to use a deprecated code for "Hebrew". -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country should be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its population. For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 18:57:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA0C3A6B13; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:57:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B418D3A6B13 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:57:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.289 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.289 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PGsouHVyHR3r for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:57:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF3933A6A32 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:57:53 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Wd5wlDZxCV4VjeNGF3zz2B3O4dihNU6RbLA4VsPqxCX0NpEqXmslj9a5+IH+32x7; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.80.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwpdV-0002cH-RC for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:57:50 -0500 Message-ID: <001101c93d5f$fd540820$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <23ff01c93cce$11109a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC84@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:58:02 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e454b32cacaad6bb8179dceebf662579e8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.80.185 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:18 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" > > (editor hat OFF) > > Why? It is a true statement. Perhaps it is not a complete statement > to require at least one (and then later restrict some to exactly one). > How would you address it? Should I make one block of exactly-ones > and then include the one "at least one" case in a separate blocking following? ... This seems very reasonable to me. As I said before, it's not a showstopper, but I'm sure other reviewers would have a similar reaction. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 18:59:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A333C28C227; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:59:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7C8C28C225 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:59:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.367 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.367 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.232, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DaZhQzUzqD-1 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:59:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE31F28C227 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:59:15 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=HZZA4YkHfdTkGA91Neq59FOjdegQIzOSjLRlJllwpm3f1VOPzBBfk5KYKTdNbh28; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.80.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwper-00075U-Tj for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 21:59:14 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01c93d60$2f7ac6e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDC9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 18:59:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e48515a8b8b69f686a6f9cadc9ced7504b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.80.185 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:45 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization > > > preferred. The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols > > that > > require a language tag to be provided or where a primary > > language subtag is required (such as in "und-Latn"). The > > 'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language > > tags in > > certain situations. > > > > "MAY" -> "might" > > Clarification: do you mean both "MAY" items (above) or just the latter? Both, since neither has normative force. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 19:11:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5DA3A67CC; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:11:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2AE73A67CC for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hk1XIvSNdidF for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 008663A63CB for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:11:53 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=IF1yAKL1QkIekxZByfgS70MrMkLzKdWvEaLcougL4P8xYR++vrSUIwUgL2HofqJx; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.25.126] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kwpr5-0000Yq-TG for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:11:52 -0500 Message-ID: <003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:12:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4f3ffc892896781f1723faf92cf1514ce350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.25.126 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 4:53 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" > > (editor hat OFF) > > > > The phrase "SHALL NOT be rejected" really seems broken, since we > > have specific conditions under which registrations MUST be rejected. > > Actually, we don't. We have specific cases in which the reviewer > might not accept a specific version of the proposed record. However, > the I-D compels him/her to make the registration. That's the point. But we do - duplicates (obvious or not-so-obvious) of existing registrations being one obvious case. > > Propose deleting the first sentence. Likewise, the "MUST propose > > a suitable replacement" assumes such a thing is possible. > > Such a thing must be possible: this section covers cases which are all > ISO changes required by the I-D. Technically unacceptable records are > already dealt with. I still think this is not quite right, since this skews the process in the direction of favoring what I called "subtag churn", rather than stability. If an ISO change (or any other change, for that matter) does not provide a way of identifying something that previously could not be identified (other than the numeric region codes) then, in my opinion, the LSR generally SHOULD NOT accept the request. But I guess Doug and I are the only ones that feel this way. > > Suggest > > replacing "MUST" with "SHOULD", and deleting everything from > > "until" to the end of the sentence. > > Actually, I would say that I don't care for the text that permits > indefinite extensions, except to note that this is what the appeals process is for. > > > > > I think this is a fairly significant bug, but would like to hear > > what others think the intended meaning is. > > > > Is there a case where a compulsory registration cannot be suitably > formatted for inclusion? Is there a case in which the reviewer > (or his/her "official proxy" and/or Doug) cannot provide a suitable > substitute? I think that's really what you're asking here. No, it's more that I have a problem with the whole concept of compulsory registration. We've seen enough cases where new codes assignments have worked against the goals of having a subtag registry, in particular that of providing a measure of insulation for language tagging applications from ISO code assignment churn. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 19:48:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 723E73A68E5; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:48:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090743A6894 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:48:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvu4f5pcK5lQ for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:48:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F6FA3A6872 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:48:01 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,532,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="131475961" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 03:47:53 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA33lqno029447; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 03:47:52 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:47:52 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:47:50 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" Thread-Index: Ack9Ye8pNFBaRrI1RzO9zBHwHZ5EAQAAyhYA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD07@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat OFF) > > > The phrase "SHALL NOT be rejected" really seems broken, since > we > > > have specific conditions under which registrations MUST be > rejected. > > > > Actually, we don't. We have specific cases in which the reviewer > > might not accept a specific version of the proposed record. > However, > > the I-D compels him/her to make the registration. That's the > point. > > But we do - duplicates (obvious or not-so-obvious) of existing > registrations being one obvious case. The text here is important, though. It says: -- Registrations initiated due to the provisions of Section 3.3 (Maintenance of the Registry) or Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries) SHALL NOT be rejected altogether (since they have to ultimately appear in the registry) and SHOULD be completed as quickly as possible. -- This includes all of the obvious and not-so-obvious cases. If a record is required, it will be entered into the registry. We do have rules to "second guess" ISO---in cases where we would encounter subtag churn, etc. But when there is no other conflict, we do register ISO changes. > > I still think this is not quite right, since this skews the process > in > the direction of favoring what I called "subtag churn", rather than > stability. If an ISO change (or any other change, for that matter) > does not provide a way of identifying something that previously > could > not be identified (other than the numeric region codes) then, in my > opinion, the LSR generally SHOULD NOT accept the request. But I > guess Doug and I are the only ones that feel this way. Well... not exactly. And it can never be "exactly". There are region codes or script codes that ISO bodies can register that have no practical use in language tags. Aside from stability provisions already provided for, we register them anyway. > > > > Is there a case where a compulsory registration cannot be > suitably > > formatted for inclusion? Is there a case in which the reviewer > > (or his/her "official proxy" and/or Doug) cannot provide a > suitable > > substitute? I think that's really what you're asking here. > > No, it's more that I have a problem with the whole concept of > compulsory > registration. We've seen enough cases where new codes assignments > have > worked against the goals of having a subtag registry, in particular > that > of providing a measure of insulation for language tagging > applications > from ISO code assignment churn. Yes, we have. And I think we've provided for such cases. Section 3.4, in particular, has fairly complex rules for when something is admitted (or not). But what we have not done---have never done, in fact---is second-guess ISO when their registrations are not in conflict with existing registrations. And we provide for the argument to be made that such a conflict exists. Absent a valid reason why not to register a subtag, though, we do mirror ISO as closely as allowed. This is intentional and by design. It would be a problem, I think, if we did not. Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 19:56:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7EA83A6836; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:56:16 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F30613A69C4 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:56:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.297 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.297 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.302, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uRp+bv-iCTDW for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:56:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D303B3A6943 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:55:52 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=j0w0CEwJrcSGg15uBg6H3cRlwWg0UOfYKwTOdt+Z17Flf4Xd/2Io1yk6AMjUU+Kn; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.136.85] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwqXc-0003h8-R6 for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 02 Nov 2008 22:55:49 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c93d68$15e21140$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD07@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 19:55:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4c8525dee9a3dd9ab32cc60cde6bca250350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.136.85 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 7:47 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" ... > Yes, we have. And I think we've provided for such cases. > Section 3.4, in particular, has fairly complex rules for > when something is admitted (or not). But what we have not > done---have never done, in fact---is second-guess ISO when > their registrations are not in conflict with existing > registrations. And we provide for the argument to be made > that such a conflict exists. Absent a valid reason why not > to register a subtag, though, we do mirror ISO as closely > as allowed. This is intentional and by design. It would > be a problem, I think, if we did not. ... I think our examples show that this isn't working as it should. For purposes of language tagging, the ZR/CD change in 3.1.7, the TL/TP change, and the hypothetically oscillating BU/MY are all cases where changes add no value whatsoever, and consequently, in my opinion, should not have propagated from ISO into the subtag registry. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 20:19:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2EE928C26D; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:19:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5669C28C150 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:19:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X1h4bLZkUlmu for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:19:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout07.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.233]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D4DCF3A67EE for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 20:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 27863 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2008 04:16:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout07-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.233) with ESMTP; 03 Nov 2008 04:16:17 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:16:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFdlbGwuLi4gbm90IGV4YWN0bHkuIEFuZCBpdCBjYW4gbmV2ZXIgYmUgImV4YWN0bHkiLiBUaGVy ZSBhcmUgcmVnaW9uIAo+IGNvZGVzIG9yIHNjcmlwdCBjb2RlcyB0aGF0IElTTyBib2RpZXMgY2Fu IHJlZ2lzdGVyIHRoYXQgaGF2ZSBubyAKPiBwcmFjdGljYWwgdXNlIGluIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3Mu IEFzaWRlIGZyb20gc3RhYmlsaXR5IHByb3Zpc2lvbnMgCj4gYWxyZWFkeSBwcm92aWRlZCBmb3Is IHdlIHJlZ2lzdGVyIHRoZW0gYW55d2F5LgoKJ0VVJyBzaG93cyB0aGF0IHdlIGFyZSBldmVuIHdp bGxpbmcgdG8gZG8gdGhpcyB3aGVuIElTTyBoYXMgKm5vdCogCmZvcm1hbGx5IHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQg dGhlIGNvZGUuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAg UkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5p ZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0 cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRy dUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 21:02:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA21C3A6866; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:02:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85DE3A6866 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hddAvOeeWoIl for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:02:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C073A683D for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:02:00 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,533,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="154163271" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 05:01:58 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA351t5F025970; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 05:01:57 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.4; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:01:55 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:01:02 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:01:53 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" Thread-Index: Ack9aCfx6waWXVlrRsuNAMISAUY65AAB87Lw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD4C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD07@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <000c01c93d68$15e21140$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000c01c93d68$15e21140$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > It would > > be a problem, I think, if we did not. > ... > > I think our examples show that this isn't working as it should. > For purposes of language tagging, the ZR/CD change in 3.1.7, > the TL/TP change, and the hypothetically oscillating BU/MY > are all cases where changes add no value whatsoever, and > consequently, in my opinion, should not have propagated from > ISO into the subtag registry. ZR/CD and TL/TP are not necessarily Bad Changes. And BU/MY is not necessarily a bad oscillation. The people involved certainly have feelings about what their country should be called and, while this has nothing to do with linguistic reality, it is not necessarily "wrong". Yes, purely political and/or administrative changes are a real problem. But getting the "right" choice is wrapped up in external considerations that we probably don't want to tangle with. I guess the question is: how would you suggest we react? Making the LSR make purely political decisions is rife with really ugly potential problems. If we force the LSR to track ISO (with some exceptions), we avoid having to decide if one country name or another is "best". This is not ideal, but it hasn't proved that distressing in practice. I won't claim this is perfect. I claim that this is what we've always done and for good reason too. Have you considered what would happen if competing claims were made about ISO registrations? Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 2 21:52:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64E973A6866; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:52:07 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6D73A6407 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:52:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.314 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.314 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OqjzQic0B+Oe for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:52:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EDDD3A6866 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:52:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=CLd7fWBvF9EXCRfwSQ38yeeQQK3Nkpx3QD6ibTUnpnuNX1IBzghJpdjTYeOx42Nn; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.136.85] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KwsM7-0008Cl-Fq for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 00:52:03 -0500 Message-ID: <002401c93d78$53e29d60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD07@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <000c01c93d68$15e21140$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD4C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Sun, 2 Nov 2008 21:52:15 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4fed554fa2802a42d016482b7376fe208350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.136.85 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As technical contributor... > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:01 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" ... > ZR/CD and TL/TP are not necessarily Bad Changes. > And BU/MY is not necessarily a bad oscillation. > The people involved certainly have feelings about > what their country should be called and, while > this has nothing to do with linguistic reality, > it is not necessarily "wrong". Yes, purely political > and/or administrative changes are a real problem. > But getting the "right" choice is wrapped up in > external considerations that we probably don't > want to tangle with. Agreed, though that leads me to the conclusion that it's preferable to stick with the originally assigned code, since we're not making any claims about what a country should be called, but rather are merely using a code originally allocated by ISO. > I guess the question is: how would you suggest we > react? Making the LSR make purely political decisions > is rife with really ugly potential problems. If we > force the LSR to track ISO (with some exceptions), > we avoid having to decide if one country name or > another is "best". This is not ideal, but it hasn't > proved that distressing in practice. We don't say anything about country name is "best", nor should we. My preference would be to always stick with the code originally assigned in the case of name changes. I have no problem with including the new name in an (updated) description. > I won't claim this is perfect. I claim that this is > what we've always done and for good reason too. > Have you considered what would happen if competing > claims were made about ISO registrations? My preference would be for stability to trump all else. The question of "competing" claims doesn't arise. As Co-chair... There doesn't seem to be any support for changing this text, so we should leave it as-is. However, I am concerned that we'll end up having to explain it again to whoever reviews it next. We can cross that bridge when we come to it, but it might be helpful to have a concise and persuasive explanation why "SHALL NOT be rejected" is necessary for the registry / protocol to function correctly, because that is ultimately the kind of justification we should be prepared to give for any MUST/SHALL language. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 06:27:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28283A6A4E; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:27:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0E713A6A17 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:27:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.507 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.507 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OLh6sy1M5x0R for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 22B263A68E8 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 06:27:01 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 30778 invoked from network); 3 Nov 2008 14:26:55 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 03 Nov 2008 14:26:55 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:26:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org IlBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIiA8YWRkaXNvbiBhdCBhbWF6b24gZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFpSL0NEIGFuZCBUTC9UUCBhcmUgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IEJhZCBDaGFuZ2VzLiBBbmQgQlUv TVkgaXMgbm90IAo+IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5IGEgYmFkIG9zY2lsbGF0aW9uLiBUaGUgcGVvcGxlIGlu dm9sdmVkIGNlcnRhaW5seSBoYXZlIAo+IGZlZWxpbmdzIGFib3V0IHdoYXQgdGhlaXIgY291bnRy eSBzaG91bGQgYmUgY2FsbGVkIGFuZCwgd2hpbGUgdGhpcyBoYXMgCj4gbm90aGluZyB0byBkbyB3 aXRoIGxpbmd1aXN0aWMgcmVhbGl0eSwgaXQgaXMgbm90IG5lY2Vzc2FyaWx5ICJ3cm9uZyIuIAo+ IFllcywgcHVyZWx5IHBvbGl0aWNhbCBhbmQvb3IgYWRtaW5pc3RyYXRpdmUgY2hhbmdlcyBhcmUg YSByZWFsIAo+IHByb2JsZW0uIEJ1dCBnZXR0aW5nIHRoZSAicmlnaHQiIGNob2ljZSBpcyB3cmFw cGVkIHVwIGluIGV4dGVybmFsIAo+IGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb25zIHRoYXQgd2UgcHJvYmFibHkgZG9u J3Qgd2FudCB0byB0YW5nbGUgd2l0aC4KCkkgZGlzYWdyZWUsIHRob3VnaCBJIGFncmVlIHdpdGgg Q28tQ2hhaXIgUmFuZHkncyBkZWNpc2lvbiBub3QgdG8gbWFrZSAKYW55IGNoYW5nZXMgYXQgdGhp cyBwb2ludCwgYnV0IHJhdGhlciB0byBwcmVwYXJlIG91cnNlbHZlcyB0byBkZWZlbmQgCnRoaXMg ZGVjaXNpb24gYXQgSUVURiBMQy4KClpSL0NEIGhhcHBlbmVkIGluIDE5OTcgYW5kIHdhcyBvdXQg b2Ygb3VyIGNvbnRyb2wuICBUaGVyZSB3YXMgYWxyZWFkeSAKdGhlIHBvc3NpYmlsaXR5IG9mIFJG QyAxNzY2LzMwNjYgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFncyBpbiBib3RoIC1aUiBhbmQgLUNELCBzbyAKdGhlcmUg d2FzIG5vIGRpZmZlcmVuY2UgaW4gImNodXJuIiB3aGV0aGVyIHdlIGNob3NlIFpSIG9yIENEIGFz IHRoZSAKY2Fub25pY2FsIHN1YnRhZy4gIFRML1RQIGhhcHBlbmVkIGluIDIwMDIsIGEgeWVhciBi ZWZvcmUgd2Ugc3RhcnRlZCB0aGlzIAplZmZvcnQsIHNvIHRoZSBzaXR1YXRpb24gaXMgc2ltaWxh ci4KCkNoYW5naW5nIHRoZSBjYW5vbmljYWwgZm9ybSBvZiBNTSAobm90IE1ZLCBNYWxheXNpYSkg dG8gQlUgd291bGQgYmUgCmRpZmZlcmVudCwgYmVjYXVzZSBCVSBoYXMgYmVlbiBvdXQgb2YgY29t bWlzc2lvbiBzaW5jZSAxOTg5LCBiZWZvcmUgRGF0ZSAKQSAocHVibGljYXRpb24gb2YgUkZDIDE3 NjYpLCBhbmQgdGhlcmUgaXMgbm8gbmVlZCB0byBhc3N1bWUgdGhhdCB2YWxpZCAKQkNQIDQ3IGxh bmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MgZXhpc3QgaW4gLUJVLiAgVGhpcyB3b3VsZCBpbmRlZWQgaW50cm9kdWNlIApj YW5vbmljYWwtZm9ybSBjaHVybiB3aGVyZSBub25lIGhhZCBleGlzdGVkIGJlZm9yZS4KClBlb3Bs ZSBkbyBoYXZlIGZlZWxpbmdzIGFib3V0IHdoYXQgdGhlaXIgY291bnRyeSBzaG91bGQgYmUgY2Fs bGVkLCBidXQgCnN1YnRhZ3MgaW4gdGhlIExTUiBhcmUgbm90IG1lYW50IHRvIHJlZmxlY3QgdGhp cyBwZXJmZWN0bHksIG5vdCBldmVuIHRvIAp0aGUgZXh0ZW50IHRoYXQgSVNPIDMxNjYgYXR0ZW1w dHMgdG8gcmVmbGVjdCBpdC4gIFRoZXkgYXJlIGp1c3QgY29kZXMuIApJZiB3ZSByZWFsbHkgYXJl IHRyeWluZyB0byBwcm9tb3RlIHN0YWJpbGl0eSwgaXQgZG9lc24ndCByZWFsbHkgbWF0dGVyIAp3 aGF0IHRoZSB0d28gbGV0dGVycyBhcmUsIGFzIGxvbmcgYXMgdGhleSB1bmlxdWVseSBpZGVudGlm eSB0aGUgcmVnaW9uIAoob25lIHJlYXNvbiBJJ3ZlIG5ldmVyIGJlZW4gc3dheWVkIGJ5IHRoZSBV Sy9HQiBkZWJhdGUpLiAgQWRkaW5nIG9yIApjaGFuZ2luZyBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBmaWVsZHMgaXMg YSBtdWNoIGJldHRlciB3YXkgdG8gY2FsbCBhIGNvdW50cnkgYnkgCnRoZSBuYW1lIGl0cyBjaXRp emVucyBwcmVmZXIuCgo+IEkgZ3Vlc3MgdGhlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGlzOiBob3cgd291bGQgeW91IHN1 Z2dlc3Qgd2UgcmVhY3Q/IE1ha2luZyB0aGUgCj4gTFNSIG1ha2UgcHVyZWx5IHBvbGl0aWNhbCBk ZWNpc2lvbnMgaXMgcmlmZSB3aXRoIHJlYWxseSB1Z2x5IHBvdGVudGlhbCAKPiBwcm9ibGVtcy4g SWYgd2UgZm9yY2UgdGhlIExTUiB0byB0cmFjayBJU08gKHdpdGggc29tZSBleGNlcHRpb25zKSwg d2UgCj4gYXZvaWQgaGF2aW5nIHRvIGRlY2lkZSBpZiBvbmUgY291bnRyeSBuYW1lIG9yIGFub3Ro ZXIgaXMgImJlc3QiLiBUaGlzIAo+IGlzIG5vdCBpZGVhbCwgYnV0IGl0IGhhc24ndCBwcm92ZWQg dGhhdCBkaXN0cmVzc2luZyBpbiBwcmFjdGljZS4KClRoZSBwb2xpdGljYWwgZGVjaXNpb24gaGVy ZSB3b3VsZCBiZSB0byBmb2xsb3cgSVNPIDMxNjYgZXZlcnkgdGltZSBpdCAKY2hhbmdlcyBhIDIt bGV0dGVyIGNvZGUgZWxlbWVudCB0byBtYXRjaCB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0IG5hbWUgcmVwb3J0ZWQgYnkg YSAKY291bnRyeSdzIG5ldyBhZG1pbmlzdHJhdGlvbi4gIFRoZSB0ZWNobmljYWxseSBzb3VuZCBk ZWNpc2lvbiwgZnJvbSB0aGUgCnBlcnNwZWN0aXZlIG9mIGEgc3RhYmxlIGNvZGluZyBzeXN0ZW0s IHdvdWxkIGJlIHRvIGtlZXAgdGhlIGNhbm9uaWNhbCAKY29kZSBlbGVtZW50IChzdWJ0YWcpIHRo ZSBzYW1lLCBhbmQgdXNlIERlc2NyaXB0aW9uIGZpZWxkcyB0byBrZWVwIHVwIAp3aXRoIGNoYW5n aW5nIG5hbWVzLgoKPiBJIHdvbid0IGNsYWltIHRoaXMgaXMgcGVyZmVjdC4gSSBjbGFpbSB0aGF0 IHRoaXMgaXMgd2hhdCB3ZSd2ZSBhbHdheXMgCj4gZG9uZSBhbmQgZm9yIGdvb2QgcmVhc29uIHRv by4gSGF2ZSB5b3UgY29uc2lkZXJlZCB3aGF0IHdvdWxkIGhhcHBlbiBpZiAKPiBjb21wZXRpbmcg Y2xhaW1zIHdlcmUgbWFkZSBhYm91dCBJU08gcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9ucz8KCkkgY2xhaW0gaXQgaXMg bm90IHdoYXQgd2Ugc2V0IG91dCB0byBkbyBiYWNrIGluIDIwMDMsIHdoZW4gYXZvaWRhbmNlIG9m IAp0aGUgQ1MgZGViYWNsZSB3YXMgYXQgdGhlIGNvcmUgb2Ygb3VyIGVmZm9ydHMuICBGb3IgbWFu eSBwZW9wbGUgdGhpcyB3YXMgCmEgZ3JlYXRlciBtb3RpdmF0aW9uIHRvIHJldmlzZSBSRkMgMzA2 NiB0aGFuIHRoZSBhZGRpdGlvbiBvZiBzY3JpcHQgCnN1YnRhZ3MuCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAq ICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKaHR0cDov L3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUt Y2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ll dGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhiAKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 07:58:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB9D93A6B48; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:58:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8F9E3A6B41 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:58:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.572 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.572 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.027, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lSzq09YF31vl for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:58:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC5D53A6B0B for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:58:52 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,536,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73548256" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Nov 2008 15:58:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA3Fwkq4011748; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 15:58:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:58:46 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 07:58:44 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" Thread-Index: Ack9wECw11dknf2kSm67Cgld7pbb1wACVOcQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDF25@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > Yes, purely political and/or administrative changes are a real > > problem. But getting the "right" choice is wrapped up in external > > considerations that we probably don't want to tangle with. > > I disagree, though I agree with Co-Chair Randy's decision not to > make > any changes at this point, but rather to prepare ourselves to > defend > this decision at IETF LC. I think you and Randy are not taking a holistic view here. Would you not agree that there are ISO decisions that "must" be entered into the registry? These would include new language assignments, new script assignments, assignments for new countries (where border changes have occurred, presumably), deprecations, and so on. These changes we describe---at great length and complexity---in Section 3.4, which is about 'stability'. If the stability rules are not right, then you should argue about that section. Instead you are arguing that the MUSTard in that section can still be avoided via the public review process. Please note that what you and Randy are arguing for is ALREADY REQUIRED. Section 3.4, Rule 15.D says: -- For ISO 3166-1 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is associated with the same UN M.49 code as another 'region' subtag, then the existing region subtag remains as the preferred value for that region and no new entry is created. A comment MAY be added to the existing region subtag indicating the relationship to the new ISO 3166-1 code. -- In my view, the "SHALL NOT be rejected" phrase protects the LSR from people who would argue (for example) that "MM" should become "BU" (for example). Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 12:33:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F32EE3A6B41; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:33:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE1263A6B41 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:33:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53A0nRmv8KDY for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:33:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA8028C2D8 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:31:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=rCbRBEGt0wQI+ZHM+xFbiiEGB9qxOyBSzDScwvhDQRZwveDfguOkD7GQFMyWVM65; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.28.12] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kx658-0008VI-11 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 03 Nov 2008 15:31:26 -0500 Message-ID: <007601c93df3$2deb1c60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDF25@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 12:31:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e40054e155cec12e79d439abe50a3b5a69350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.28.12 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Doug Ewell" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 7:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" ... > Would you not agree that there are ISO decisions that "must" be > entered into the registry? These would include new language > assignments, new script assignments, assignments for new > countries (where border changes have occurred, presumably), > deprecations, and so on. No. I could see treating them as SHOULD, but do not see why a MUST is necessary for the process or protocol to work, in the spirit of section 6 of RFC 2119. > These changes we describe---at great length and complexity--- > in Section 3.4, which is about 'stability'. If the stability rules are > not right, then you should argue about that section. Instead you > are arguing that the MUSTard in that section can still be avoided > via the public review process. Indeed, 14. Codes assigned by ISO 639, ISO 15924, or ISO 3166-1 that are withdrawn by their respective maintenance or registration authority remain valid in language tags. A 'Deprecated' field containing the date of withdrawal MUST be added to the record. If a new record of the same type is added that represents a replacement value, then a 'Preferred-Value' field MAY also be added. The registration process MAY be used to add comments about the withdrawal of the code by the respective standard. *permits* the right thing to be done, but only vaguely hints at it behind an "if" and some MAYs. > Please note that what you and Randy are arguing for is ALREADY > REQUIRED. Section 3.4, Rule 15.D says: > > -- > For ISO 3166-1 codes, if the newly assigned code's meaning is > associated with the same UN M.49 code as another 'region' subtag, > then the existing region subtag remains as the preferred value for that > region and no new entry is created. A comment MAY be added to the > existing region subtag indicating the relationship to the new ISO 3166-1 code. > -- I've pointed out this passage before, which is why I'm willing to go with "no change" for now. I just see the "SHALL NOT be rejected" as being in logical conflict with rules like this. > In my view, the "SHALL NOT be rejected" phrase protects the LSR > from people who would argue (for example) that "MM" should become > "BU" (for example). I don't see how this reading is possible. A phrase like "SHALL NOT be rejected" would trump any optional causes for possible rejection. As co-chair... But let's see what the IESG etc. make of it. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 21:00:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1671A3A6802; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:00:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63233A6802 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:00:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oFAnjdzhANPe for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:00:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3331E3A676A for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:00:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:00:10 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:00:10 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 20:59:59 -0800 Thread-Topic: Typo in name in draft 18 Thread-Index: Ack7ycvjT8ZZuwniTqy1jRttYzo32wCb/fpg Message-ID: References: <20081101023001.4B55C3A6937@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20081101023001.4B55C3A6937@core3.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] Typo in name in draft 18 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In paragraph 4 of Appendix A "Acknowledgements", Shawn's surname is spelled "Steel", whereas the correct spelling is "Steele". I'd like to see that corrected before the final version is published. Thanks Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 21:07:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551C53A677D; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:07:05 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 916773A677D for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:07:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EH7nNWSJGHhK for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:07:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4CB13A6359 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,541,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="73908420" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Nov 2008 05:06:52 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA456p9a024967 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Nov 2008 05:06:52 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:06:51 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 21:06:49 -0800 Thread-Topic: Typo in name in draft 18 Thread-Index: Ack7ycvjT8ZZuwniTqy1jRttYzo32wCb/fpgAABSdUA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151FF8187@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20081101023001.4B55C3A6937@core3.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Typo in name in draft 18 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi Peter, I have corrected the editor's copy. Thank you for pointing the error out. Thanks, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:00 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Typo in name in draft 18 > > In paragraph 4 of Appendix A "Acknowledgements", Shawn's surname is > spelled "Steel", whereas the correct spelling is "Steele". I'd like > to see that corrected before the final version is published. > > > > Thanks > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 3 22:04:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7E0F3A68A0; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EC63A6892 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id suHvf8QNhSHD for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE66D3A68A0 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:13 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.46]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:13 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 22:04:07 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" Thread-Index: Ack9eFBnFS7FpyQ/Q1e8wRNV7sPpqQAyf55Q Message-ID: References: <297b01c93cd3$5de49fc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDCA1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><003701c93d61$f32b6800$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD07@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <000c01c93d68$15e21140$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDD4C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <002401c93d78$53e29d60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <002401c93d78$53e29d60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >> it is not necessarily "wrong". Yes, purely political >> and/or administrative changes are a real problem. >> But getting the "right" choice is wrapped up in >> external considerations that we probably don't >> want to tangle with. > > Agreed, though that leads me to the conclusion that > it's preferable to stick with the originally assigned code, > since we're not making any claims about what a country > should be called, but rather are merely using a code > originally allocated by ISO. That's been my inclination in language coding: we are coding the concept of a language (or some range of language variation), not a particular expression used to refer to that concept. In the text for 639-3, we explicitly tried to steer people away from reading mnemonic value into the symbol used because it simply wasn't practical to be mnemonic with 7000+ coded entities, but an added benefit we saw was that it avoided (and is the only way to avoid) the politics of names. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 06:12:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19E9E3A6A20; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 06:12:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD51E3A6A27 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 06:12:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.859, BAYES_20=-0.74, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X3lSKMzgTPkE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 06:12:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.99]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BFE63A6A20 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 06:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 19350 invoked from network); 4 Nov 2008 14:12:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.99) with ESMTP; 04 Nov 2008 14:12:40 -0000 Message-ID: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 07:12:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ IFRoYXQncyBiZWVuIG15IGluY2xpbmF0aW9uIGluIGxhbmd1YWdlIGNvZGluZzogd2UgYXJlIGNv ZGluZyB0aGUgCj4gY29uY2VwdCBvZiBhIGxhbmd1YWdlIChvciBzb21lIHJhbmdlIG9mIGxhbmd1 YWdlIHZhcmlhdGlvbiksIG5vdCBhIAo+IHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgZXhwcmVzc2lvbiB1c2VkIHRvIHJl ZmVyIHRvIHRoYXQgY29uY2VwdC4KCkFuZCB5ZXMsIHRoaXMgZG9lcyBtZWFuIHdlIGFyZSB1c2lu ZyBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWdzIGluIGEgc29tZXdoYXQgCmRpZmZlcmVudCB3YXkgZnJvbSB0aGUg SVNPIDYzOSBjb2RlIGVsZW1lbnRzIGZyb20gd2hpY2ggdGhleSBhcmUgZGVyaXZlZCAKKHdoaWNo LCBhY2NvcmRpbmcgdG8gdGhlIHRpdGxlIG9mIHRoZSBzdGFuZGFyZCwgYXJlIGludGVuZGVkIHRv IApyZXByZXNlbnQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgbmFtZXMpLiAgQW5kIHllcywgd2UgYXJlIGF3YXJlIG9mIHRo aXMsIGFuZCAKY29tZm9ydGFibGUgd2l0aCBpdC4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9u LCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxs aWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0 bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFn ZXMgIMuGIAoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18K THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 09:37:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14D7E3A69C3; 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Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:33:45 -0800 From: Shawn Steele To: "Phillips, Addison" , Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 09:33:45 -0800 Thread-Topic: Typo in name in draft 18 Thread-Index: Ack7ycvjT8ZZuwniTqy1jRttYzo32wCb/fpgAABSdUAAGhrDAA== Message-ID: References: <20081101023001.4B55C3A6937@core3.amsl.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151FF8187@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151FF8187@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Typo in name in draft 18 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thanks :) -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Phillips, Addison Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:07 PM To: Peter Constable; ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Typo in name in draft 18 Hi Peter, I have corrected the editor's copy. Thank you for pointing the error out. Thanks, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Peter Constable > Sent: Monday, November 03, 2008 9:00 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Typo in name in draft 18 > > In paragraph 4 of Appendix A "Acknowledgements", Shawn's surname is > spelled "Steel", whereas the correct spelling is "Steele". I'd like > to see that corrected before the final version is published. > > > > Thanks > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 11:29:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065533A6C19; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 11:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92ED03A696F for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 11:29:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P4CWx-WT1v+8 for ; 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Tue, 04 Nov 2008 11:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 11:28:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041128o594aa90eu81447f6bbf771b79@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 11:28:27 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5cf3c1adf0709e6c Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0877226607==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0877226607== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_33329_22644285.1225826908115" ------=_Part_33329_22644285.1225826908115 Content-Type: text/plain; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0877226607==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 12:21:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CB753A69CE; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:21:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4A413A69A3 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:21:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xURijNxZhwzf for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:21:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC00D3A69CE for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:21:14 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=YGvhrhhpaoBiagr7VpM2Z2e0N5tsOxuE0UTIkETJ8xMhsD8hZvnMWeJnBon5IJnB; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.5.168] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KxSOm-00056V-CH for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:21:12 -0500 Message-ID: <005d01c93eba$eb5dc500$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20811041128o594aa90eu81447f6bbf771b79@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:21:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4af2e5a085be630aacab39457b913b4c7350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.5.168 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" > > As far as I'm concerned, we'd have better interoperability if we never > changed codes for just a name change. As a technical contributor, I strongly agree, and I think that was the point of Section 3.4 (15) (D) for region subtags, and would hope the rules for primary language codes would work out to have the same net effect, modulo the dates of the versions of the standards used as sources for the codes. ... > However, this would be a major departure from the current BCP47 at a late > date, without time to consider all the ramifications. So I agree with > Addison that this is really not an issue to be discussed at this point; it > should wait for a possible future revision. As co-chair: we're supposed to be checking that what we have before us (1) reflects the WGLC discussions (2) is self-consistent (3) makes technical sense Issues in (2) and (3) are sometimes at odds with WG consensus. When such things crop up, we as co-chairs need to make judgment call whether (1) the consistency / technical problem is in fact an editorial problem that can be corrected by fixing a typo, clarifying and explanation, or something like that (2) if there is a real technical problem with the direction taken by the WG, whether it is an acceptible trade-off to live with the problem in the interest of getting a workable solution published As a technical contributor, I think the "SHALL NOT be rejected" language is problematic from both the self-consistency and technical sense perspective, and that it could be substantially mitigated by editorial changes, but I also have a nagging concern that there is an underlying technical problem with regard to stability. However, as co-chair, I think that what we have is sufficiently workable that it's better to get this thing published than to spend more time on it. > That is a separate issue from how the text is structured; if there are > specific changes that can be made to the text that clarify it, without > making a substantive technical change, then I'm ok with such changes. As co-chair: My inclination is suggest we hand what we have to our AD for the IESG, queue up the nits we've accumulated in the last days as IETF last-call comments, and see whether anyone finds the motivation / inspiration to address this concern. I get the feeling that we to a large extent want the same things here, and that the problem is that the overarching philosophy is difficult to discern amongst the detailed rules. The slightly-more-prim-and-proper alternative is to incorporate the accumulated nits into a new I-D and submit *that* to the IESG. The downside is that I-D submissions don't re-open until November 17th. The choice before us now seems to be: (A) hand off what we have in the next day or so to our AD. Martin and I need to hear from people who can say they have *read* the drafts. A simple post to the wg mailing list would suffice. The risk is immediate push-back for the accumulated nits. (B) incorporate the nits into a new I-D, to be sumitted November 17th. Use the time between now and then to see whether we can find an editorial way to address the concerns. Shortly thereafter, hand it off to our AD. As I said above, I'm leaning toward (A), but am willing to listen to reason. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 12:53:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E7A23A6C14; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:53:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DD13A6C72 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:53:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iNrnAYpaNtEC for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:53:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E62F93A69A3 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:53:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so1282021ywj.49 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:53:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=4tInwweCCuhSUv00N8KphoZPrelqimpC3l2K+hE2334=; b=lRfWPjjE0zhxwCU78ckoiJfsZ6MBKGJSadBEizshlb/CjYc4F2DDl7I9YZO4ml98+N 0LKXeWancwb08bTpvyRrjC8gsNQhTkWVQSaymq3HgeL3/ty8jEsr5j4W7XFA6pT5daSm 2nun46mUOzT3teVszsU/Ma9tTysvTd1CwgtVs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=hkmBjQqz2If/kATAx00OcRhM/oEmpdQRIcDgUyItsCSSBCW2pePUZ08aXIH8rqmQ+i GElaC8RNZ8tWnPfLBuB0tWhivNtFKkkwWddf6+Ogxe3j0Wt5ygEhlfV5pN4DgaxL8Fsz dYjuy9RafFV+5Y0Z2JRJs0iJuaj7fNZv4h5G0= Received: by 10.142.162.9 with SMTP id k9mr12281wfe.211.1225831986891; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 12:53:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:53:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041253l2257e585qd4a6aa788fc723d5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:53:06 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <005d01c93eba$eb5dc500$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20811041128o594aa90eu81447f6bbf771b79@mail.gmail.com> <005d01c93eba$eb5dc500$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 3ec9aa0d6d16d926 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1618930495==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1618930495== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_34379_19405536.1225831986876" ------=_Part_34379_19405536.1225831986876 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I lean strongly towards A as well. My feeling is that, *as with any spec, *the longer we look at this document the more issues we will turn up. But we have to draw the line somewhere, and this version is vastly better than the previous one, and brings a great deal of functionality to the table that people are really waiting on. So we are better off (especially in view of the timing) to get this version out, and then (*after some suitable period of recuperation!!*) turning to the next version. Mark On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Doug Ewell" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:28 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" > > > > > As far as I'm concerned, we'd have better interoperability if we never > > changed codes for just a name change. > > As a technical contributor, I strongly agree, and I think that was > the point of Section 3.4 (15) (D) for region subtags, and would > hope the rules for primary language codes would work out to have > the same net effect, modulo the dates of the versions of the standards > used as sources for the codes. > > ... > > However, this would be a major departure from the current BCP47 at a late > > date, without time to consider all the ramifications. So I agree with > > Addison that this is really not an issue to be discussed at this point; > it > > should wait for a possible future revision. > > As co-chair: we're supposed to be checking that what we have before us > (1) reflects the WGLC discussions > (2) is self-consistent > (3) makes technical sense > > Issues in (2) and (3) are sometimes at odds with WG consensus. When such > things crop up, we as co-chairs need to make judgment call whether > (1) the consistency / technical problem is in fact an editorial > problem that can be corrected by fixing a typo, clarifying > and explanation, or something like that > (2) if there is a real technical problem with the direction taken by > the WG, whether it is an acceptible trade-off to live with the > problem in the interest of getting a workable solution published > > As a technical contributor, I think the "SHALL NOT be rejected" language > is problematic from both the self-consistency and technical sense > perspective, > and that it could be substantially mitigated by editorial changes, but > I also have a nagging concern that there is an underlying technical problem > with regard to stability. > > However, as co-chair, I think that what we have is sufficiently workable > that it's better to get this thing published than to spend more time > on it. > > > That is a separate issue from how the text is structured; if there are > > specific changes that can be made to the text that clarify it, without > > making a substantive technical change, then I'm ok with such changes. > > As co-chair: > > My inclination is suggest we hand what we have to our AD for the IESG, > queue up the nits we've accumulated in the last days as IETF last-call > comments, and see whether anyone finds the motivation / inspiration to > address > this concern. I get the feeling that we to a large extent want the > same things here, and that the problem is that the overarching philosophy > is difficult to discern amongst the detailed rules. > > The slightly-more-prim-and-proper alternative is to incorporate the > accumulated nits into a new I-D and submit *that* to the IESG. The > downside is that I-D submissions don't re-open until November 17th. > > The choice before us now seems to be: > (A) hand off what we have in the next day or so to our AD. Martin > and I need to hear from people who can say they have *read* > the drafts. A simple post to the wg mailing list would suffice. > The risk is immediate push-back for the accumulated nits. > (B) incorporate the nits into a new I-D, to be sumitted November 17th. > Use the time between now and then to see whether we can find > an editorial way to address the concerns. Shortly thereafter, > hand it off to our AD. > > As I said above, I'm leaning toward (A), but am willing to listen to > reason. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_34379_19405536.1225831986876 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I lean strongly towards A as well. My feeling is that, as with any spec, the longer we look at this document the more issues we will turn up. But we have to draw the line somewhere, and this version is vastly better than the previous one, and brings a great deal of functionality to the table that people are really waiting on.

So we are better off (especially in view of the timing) to get this version out, and then (after some suitable period of recuperation!!) turning to the next version.

Mark


On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:21 PM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected"
>

> As far as I'm concerned, we'd have better interoperability if we never
> changed codes for just a name change.

As a technical contributor, I strongly agree, and I think that was
the point of Section 3.4 (15) (D) for region subtags, and would
hope the rules for primary language codes would work out to have
the same net effect, modulo the dates of the versions of the standards
used as sources for the codes.

...
> However, this would be a major departure from the current BCP47 at a late
> date, without time to consider all the ramifications. So I agree with
> Addison that this is really not an issue to be discussed at this point; it
> should wait for a possible future revision.

As co-chair: we're supposed to be checking that what we have before us
 (1) reflects the WGLC discussions
 (2) is self-consistent
 (3) makes technical sense

Issues in (2) and (3) are sometimes at odds with WG consensus.  When such
things crop up, we as co-chairs need to make judgment call whether
 (1) the consistency / technical problem is in fact an editorial
     problem that can be corrected by fixing a typo, clarifying
     and explanation, or something like that
 (2) if there is a real technical problem with the direction taken by
     the WG, whether it is an acceptible trade-off to live with the
     problem in the interest of getting a workable solution published

As a technical contributor, I think the "SHALL NOT be rejected" language
is problematic from both the self-consistency and technical sense perspective,
and that it could be substantially mitigated by editorial changes, but
I also have a nagging concern that there is an underlying technical problem
with regard to stability.

However, as co-chair, I think that what we have is sufficiently workable
that it's better to get this thing published than to spend more time
on it.

> That is a separate issue from how the text is structured; if there are
> specific changes that can be made to the text that clarify it, without
> making a substantive technical change, then I'm ok with such changes.

As co-chair:

My inclination is suggest we hand what we have to our AD for the IESG,
queue up the nits we've accumulated in the last days as IETF last-call
comments, and see whether anyone finds the motivation / inspiration to address
this concern.  I get the feeling that we to a large extent want the
same things here, and that the problem is that the overarching philosophy
is difficult to discern amongst the detailed rules.

The slightly-more-prim-and-proper alternative is to incorporate the
accumulated nits into a new I-D and submit *that* to the IESG.  The
downside is that I-D submissions don't re-open until November 17th.

The choice before us now seems to be:
 (A) hand off what we have in the next day or so to our AD.  Martin
     and I need to hear from people who can say they have *read*
     the drafts.  A simple post to the wg mailing list would suffice.
     The risk is immediate push-back for the accumulated nits.
 (B) incorporate the nits into a new I-D, to be sumitted November 17th.
     Use the time between now and then to see whether we can find
     an editorial way to address the concerns.  Shortly thereafter,
     hand it off to our AD.

As I said above, I'm leaning toward (A), but am willing to listen to
reason.

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_34379_19405536.1225831986876-- --===============1618930495== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1618930495==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 12:57:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6F6828C28F; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABD13A6C14 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:57:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.575 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.575 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ndaYakiW4w8y for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:57:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D31B3A69A3 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:57:43 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,545,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="155223559" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Nov 2008 20:57:26 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA4KvPd3029408 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 4 Nov 2008 20:57:26 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:57:25 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Randy Presuhn Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 12:57:24 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" Thread-Index: Ack+v1z7ezsjqdyyRJiiO0nnWv8/HgAAAlnA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151FF89B7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20811041128o594aa90eu81447f6bbf771b79@mail.gmail.com> <005d01c93eba$eb5dc500$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811041253l2257e585qd4a6aa788fc723d5@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20811041253l2257e585qd4a6aa788fc723d5@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0069652289==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 13:54:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D9B3A6C79; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:54:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8873A69D2 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:54:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VxQPwmurq0bK for ; 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Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:54:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:53:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041353t36387d4dv282e1df5d9833ea4@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:53:59 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5e5bed9a77418009 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1194803507==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1194803507== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35115_10105507.1225835640078" ------=_Part_35115_10105507.1225835640078 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 Mark On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:56 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > In section 4.1 are a couple of cases where key word capitalization > should be checked. > > 4.1 4 1 says: > 1. Collections are interpreted inclusively, so the subtag 'gem' > (Germanic langauges) could, but should not, be used with > content that would be better tagged with "en" (English), "de" > (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic). While 'gem' > collects all of these (and other) languages, most > implementations will not match 'gem' to the individual > languages; thus using the subtag will not produce the desired > result. > > "should not" -> "SHOULD NOT" > > 4.1 5 says > * The 'und' (Undetermined) primary language subtag identifies > linguistic content whose language is not determined. This > subtag SHOULD NOT be used unless a language tag is required > and language information is not available or cannot be > determined. Omitting the language tag (where permitted) is > preferred. The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols that > require a language tag to be provided or where a primary > language subtag is required (such as in "und-Latn"). The > 'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language tags in > certain situations. > > "MAY" -> "might" > > Minor, but I'm certain other reviewers will bumpt into this as well. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_35115_10105507.1225835640078 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1

Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:56 AM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

As a technical contributor...

In section 4.1 are a couple of cases where key word capitalization
should be checked.

4.1 4 1 says:
      1.  Collections are interpreted inclusively, so the subtag 'gem'
          (Germanic langauges) could, but should not, be used with
          content that would be better tagged with "en" (English), "de"
          (German), or "gsw" (Swiss German, Alemannic).  While 'gem'
          collects all of these (and other) languages, most
          implementations will not match 'gem' to the individual
          languages; thus using the subtag will not produce the desired
          result.

"should not" -> "SHOULD NOT"

4.1 5 says
      *  The 'und' (Undetermined) primary language subtag identifies
         linguistic content whose language is not determined.  This
         subtag SHOULD NOT be used unless a language tag is required
         and language information is not available or cannot be
         determined.  Omitting the language tag (where permitted) is
         preferred.  The 'und' subtag MAY be useful for protocols that
         require a language tag to be provided or where a primary
         language subtag is required (such as in "und-Latn").  The
         'und' subtag MAY also be useful when matching language tags in
         certain situations.

"MAY" -> "might"

Minor, but I'm certain other reviewers will bumpt into this as well.

Randy

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------=_Part_35115_10105507.1225835640078-- --===============1194803507== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1194803507==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 13:55:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342E93A69F9; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:55:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EEF73A69F9 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:55:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wRWPaB3fqeUS for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.173]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F0C3A69D2 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:55:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so3717766wfd.31 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:55:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=nVBVEnWFPelwIccLzUPzQJjs8YSPB5Tfrtmc7HTUBbY=; b=Nyu1LDg11FSBwdFY1JosrbfIE8xI8XnImXMbsSFC3wuM3RT2Q07LBVvni6kW7AwP4r ZtAh5ONDC+ILr1VhTFPN35j97GDD9DBvklGq4NX0tw7mBw4Nc7GWtkEGY0kKQL+oUyxj vVUNk4mRhEZ+lgJe9JBvc+E/2VdfiixIeRH4A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=pBw1+5d54T6HZAn7AZ9qsmPP5jLvJI7nnxzFEjsEEPs/wOUs9B+B5AAvPurUagy/6V 4n/XgsOMiCW/UjeTKwAPTJAozvjRMtkw8JV/1iXtngadENWrZzcf1vlmDtvZ5wPR1pIs 4UiK0i5N6hmh9beKE1mLqj9TjG/FU4mVjIzM0= Received: by 10.142.218.4 with SMTP id q4mr33672wfg.273.1225835709044; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:55:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:55:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041355x4c480719u7e9e773d3968725a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:55:08 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <23ff01c93cce$11109a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <23ff01c93cce$11109a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: a7683e5fcf594bcf Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.2 "at least one" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1266759894==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1266759894== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35127_27178566.1225835709031" ------=_Part_35127_27178566.1225835709031 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +0 (I don't care either way). Mark On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > In section 3.1.2 on Page 24: > Each record MUST contain at least one of each of the following > fields: > > It seems that the first few (Type, and Subtag or Tag) should > occur exactly once, right? > > This is not a showstopper, but I'm sure we'll hear about it > from whoever our next reviewer is. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_35127_27178566.1225835709031 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +0 (I don't care either way).

Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

As a technical contributor...

In section 3.1.2 on Page 24:
  Each record MUST contain at least one of each of the following
  fields:

It seems that the first few (Type, and Subtag or Tag) should
occur exactly once, right?

This is not a showstopper, but I'm sure we'll hear about it
from whoever our next reviewer is.

Randy


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------=_Part_35127_27178566.1225835709031-- --===============1266759894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1266759894==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 13:57:28 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5433A6CD2; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:28 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28AB53A6C79 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jSzTVCB6uUL0 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05ACD3A6CCF for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b6so368316ana.4 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:57:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=l9mo08oAKHw80LpGygpyI6zYrdrqwKSFEu+0WMfIgdk=; b=MTCesDKeQHE756IRGci105Gr5RGDLw9gxdB4oUhR8wtxGfSf0jYjPpjuJYV/1LAU1y 8SIswHyf+5jSkY5WM4ihV3xKqzkOUSZM1FkQQQGbl1KanJ7hb3rnrZ63L7LlFuLvCf77 7W1RJaFK6voeWO2nAsgetHzjX2FKPe3kfNrJM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=nvQ/hKaw8R7+8JyNVHT4ZNzDiWa7DuaLhGxzDKwkVDbdkj+u0pFmD0jQ0r+JEplguz P1uUlvRees1MCg69DitqNd+lTGCDRrOqB6/KKyco+MUZUlcE+DQAflgTJ4l4d/Djkntv XqIr62zcbhgCSp3sOCuLD77cea+m+Wbb6L15g= Received: by 10.143.31.11 with SMTP id i11mr30626wfj.328.1225835836985; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041357q60328626r2d8a5ea7725e292f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 13:57:16 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20081103024041.GG17068@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081102172207.GB17068@mercury.ccil.org> <001201c93d45$c63a0a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081103024041.GG17068@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 403e5cbe915c2657 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1098100292==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1098100292== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35139_8546737.1225835836984" ------=_Part_35139_8546737.1225835836984 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -1I agree with John. This is a useful example and should not be removed. Mark On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:40 PM, John Cowan wrote: > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > But is it *really* a BCP 47 language tag, or merely a code used > > in the Java environment that happens to look like one? > > Sure it is: it just happens for hysterical raisins to use a deprecated > code for "Hebrew". > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country > should > be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its > population. > For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the > regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six > shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such > putrid black treason. --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_35139_8546737.1225835836984 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline -1
I agree with John. This is a useful example and should not be removed.

Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 6:40 PM, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> But is it *really* a BCP 47 language tag, or merely a code used
> in the Java environment that happens to look like one?

Sure it is: it just happens for hysterical raisins to use a deprecated
code for "Hebrew".

--
John Cowan  cowan@ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan
And now here I was, in a country where a right to say how the country should
be governed was restricted to six persons in each thousand of its population.
For the nine hundred and ninety-four to express dissatisfaction with the
regnant system and propose to change it, would have made the whole six
shudder as one man, it would have been so disloyal, so dishonorable, such
putrid black treason.  --Mark Twain's Connecticut Yankee
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_35139_8546737.1225835836984-- --===============1098100292== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1098100292==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 15:09:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 884123A6C85; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:09:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A643A6CAA for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:09:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FuLCY6gkU6cl for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77B613A6767 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:09:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so3756654wfd.31 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:09:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=LpEa6WXdEHAqIaBD0UN1CaitD12IwIWLA7vTldLVq00=; b=Nk1RZzZb8Jn/bOBp1mYDCVQ0Fl38JX3mxnPqR4KWMuKwGNd0YmvzUJUQCzGJ4tNwdF 5slqH5KL/edaL8g5/STSYLnTNvU/cuRkD7CwnL9bxr4lwFsm/hw/WG0Hfp2BCtHB8JN6 0KU0GP72XzEqJrJAp6qBLtVISwzq4g3m4wCWs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=boyhLMYlPDASE8H59MMue1LpIhlLszGB3zZGMy2IwKfq9u49NOYyIV66ToMrTESBuQ hcSv/R2leNOOopUovQKMMiZR87/fzGHpOUBKjb04PXBZ1lU6PTKwhj7txiJB+NSfzHcp WJeNZehdxVNgHZ1VXg2yvIZyhN2TR4SspgAfo= Received: by 10.143.33.19 with SMTP id l19mr75181wfj.112.1225840152934; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:09:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041509o2e002812icf81db3a832f693c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:09:12 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBFF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <189a01c93ccb$79088940$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBF8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20081102191855.GE17068@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0151EDDBFF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 979d176a6e2ede98 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1625834355==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1625834355== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_36034_28966162.1225840152917" ------=_Part_36034_28966162.1225840152917 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I didn't find a draft-19 version at http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.html There are a number of textual problems with the proposed text: Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a collection of subtags, see ) which SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is not. Most of these were present before your latest suggestion: - The suggested text ("The subtags in the prefix MUST appear...") in the second line is not consistent with the SHOULD of the first line. That is, we can't say "The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record." if it is only a SHOULD that the prefix be used with the subtag at all! - The wording is also awkward, since it suggests that the subtags are appearing in order in the Prefix's *record* instead of in a language tag. - Also, the gloss "basically a collection of subtags" is a bit funny, since it is not a collection: I'd expect something like {abc, def, ghi} if that were the case. Since they are linked with "-", they are actually ordered. - The use of extended language range, surprisingly, does *not* eliminate syntactically invalid Prefixes! - And now that we are excluding the *, and with the fact that it doesn't help with the syntax, just the use of "extended language range" is now useless. - The wording also requires that *each* prefix SHOULD be used, instead of *at least one of* the Prefixes! My suggested revised text: Prefix's field-body contains a sequence of subtags separated by '-'. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant', and one of the following concatenations MUST be a well-formed language tag 1. prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body, or 2. "und-" + prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body For example, the Prefix "Latn-de" for the variant '1994' MUST NOT be registered, since neither "Latn-de-1994" nor "und-Latn-de-1994" are well-formed language tags. The prefix "Latn" could be registered for the variant '1994', since "und-Latn-1994" is well-formed. If a record contains any Prefix field, then any language tag containing the record's subtag SHOULD also contain the subtag(s) from at least one Prefix field. Where a language tag contains the prefix's subtag(s) and the record's subtag, those subtags SHOULD occur in that order in the language tag, although perhaps with intervening subtags. For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is not appropriate and SHOULD NOT be used. The variant '1994' has multiple prefix fields, where each prefix field has multiple subtags: "sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva",... A language tag containing '1994' SHOULD have all the subtags from at least one of these prefix fields, such as "sl-fonipa-rozaj-1994" or "sl-rozaj-biske- fonipa-1994" (the 'fonipa' subtag is added to show the use of optional intervening subtags). A language tag could contain subtags from multiple prefix fields, such as "sl-rozaj-biske-njiva-1994", although that should be avoided where the subtags are mutually exclusive. Mark On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (editor hat ON) > > I have opened a new editor's copy for draft-19. > > Addressing the below as well as Doug/Randy's comments about the typo in > this section, I added a new bit of MUSTard to the section on Prefix as > follows: > > -- > Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a > collection of subtags, see ) which SHOULD be > used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the prefix > MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT > include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose > 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. blankLines="1"/>For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a > 'Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and > "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza > dialect) is not. > -- > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 11:19 AM > > To: Phillips, Addison > > Cc: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage > > > > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > > > But I think your comment probably means the special range "*" (or > > any > > > range beginning with "*"). We should probably prohibit those > > ranges: "*" > > > means the same thing as omitting the prefix and the others run > > counter > > > to existing practice. Although I do note that this would allow > > variants > > > that modify script or region rather than strictly the primary > > language. > > > > Let's not go there; better to prohibit '*' in all Prefix: fields. > > > > -- > > But the next day there came no dawn, John Cowan > > and the Grey Company passed on into the cowan@ccil.org > > darkness of the Storm of Mordor and were > > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan > > lost to mortal sight; but the Dead > > followed them. --"The Passing of the Grey Company" > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_36034_28966162.1225840152917 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBkaWRuJiMzOTt0IGZpbmQgYSBkcmFmdC0xOSB2ZXJzaW9uIGF0Jm5ic3A7PGRpdj48YSBocmVm PSJodHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMt 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Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1PC9hPjxicj4KPC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+ PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj48L2Rpdj4K ------=_Part_36034_28966162.1225840152917-- --===============1625834355== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1625834355==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 15:11:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3B13A6C85; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:39 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 378AA3A69D4 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozQGJ0JJS4ZA for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D711B3A6CAA for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so3366142rvf.49 for ; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:11:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=r/rmNQ/2UX5nvMtzOBNtFQuOiEeb900jf5NoNo80kLw=; b=Dvdm/fW6Ccw30PG7l966RF+mm7pjvQwsUPH1TarJWdsiGOTRfMN04JXS+EiF2vDV5I zVk6+a7DlEsH+kOTf2ZmdO2xSbgNLee7jSNEyFTP+f3p3IVzCZfwJ2MSFwGEG/R3BQDk Ltj0Iaj2v763AgxJLdL6r1swbP4PfrvcQNTlE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=QcOzfQ8Vpq7IjQGvzVx9nfW81L/353VjFRnSFL1Q8Pjlqq5UP98yUd006iEyNYkvQr NBFw0wox3ljmxFnTMiuKAEkZhebhrrHuJAOWN4Rx5mC5ghKoSxmCqjI0cIcWYcEk22uQ SO79jZsPdj4CUkSClln4L6bta+9gBcbqXv2Js= Received: by 10.142.186.15 with SMTP id j15mr80746wff.44.1225840287668; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:11:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811041511v2a2d0ae4xa9d326c1c7443161@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 15:11:27 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <1ccb01c93ccc$74d23d20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1ccb01c93ccc$74d23d20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 694d026d04287368 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0142973565==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0142973565== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_36073_3405158.1225840287666" ------=_Part_36073_3405158.1225840287666 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That was discussed at great length earlier. We did want to use a concrete example. And the tag "es-419-x-ldml-collatio-traditio" IS a valid language tag, and is used as such. Mark On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:21 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > In section 2.2.7 > For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use > extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode > standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag "es-419-x-ldml- > collatio-traditio", which indicates Latin American Spanish with > traditional order for sorted lists. > > The example isn't an appropriate example, as it is not a language > tag, but rather locale data. I suggest removing the example, > as well as the corresponding informative reference UTS35. > > This is not a show-stopper comment before handoff to the IESG, > but I hope it would be considered as part of the IETF last call. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_36073_3405158.1225840287666 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline That was discussed at great length earlier. We did want to use a concrete example. And the tag  "es-419-x-ldml-collatio-traditio" IS a valid language tag, and is used as such.

Mark


On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:21 AM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

As a technical contributor...

In section 2.2.7
  For example: The Unicode Consortium defines a set of private use
  extensions in LDML ([UTS35], Locale Data Markup Language, the Unicode
  standard for defining locale data) such as in the tag "es-419-x-ldml-
  collatio-traditio", which indicates Latin American Spanish with
  traditional order for sorted lists.

The example isn't an appropriate example, as it is not a language
tag, but rather locale data.  I suggest removing the example,
as well as the corresponding informative reference UTS35.

This is not a show-stopper comment before handoff to the IESG,
but I hope it would be considered as part of the IETF last call.

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_36073_3405158.1225840287666-- --===============0142973565== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0142973565==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 4 16:38:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE9563A683B; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:38:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0803D3A683B for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:38:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9PjdfelSNe8B for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512273A67E7 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:38:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=AMqDf31tTpZ0/4eKaNEw5zTQRy7345JlsPaCGwk3IuKbrxTbWwWV/tZ+kMSQqCjR; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KxWPu-0006ja-7R for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Nov 2008 19:38:38 -0500 Message-ID: <092801c93ede$e0738a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <1ccb01c93ccc$74d23d20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811041511v2a2d0ae4xa9d326c1c7443161@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2008 16:38:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4fbbee0da95b074d98df1f7a6656bd62b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.88 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > That was discussed at great length earlier. We did want to use a concrete > example. And the tag "es-419-x-ldml-collatio-traditio" IS a valid language > tag, and is used as such. As co-chair... In the discussion (issue MD 4 in February of 2008) Randy Presuhn and Peter Constable objected to the proposal. Mark Davis and Addison Phillips argued for it. My reading of the discussion was that there was indeed agreement to get rid of the old text (SIL example), but I don't see consensus to add the LDML example. As a technical contributor, I think we should be extremely wary of doing anything that might be perceived as encouraging the use of private-use subtags in the slightest, due to their dire consequences for interoperability. However, since I'm a party to the discussion, I'd like co-chair Martin to make the call. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 06:01:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9CD33A6883; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:01:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB3C3A6883 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:01:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.336 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.336 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.262, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0o5V-htYVo2Y for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8ACC43A67DB for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:01:36 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13652 invoked from network); 5 Nov 2008 14:00:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.181) with ESMTP; 05 Nov 2008 14:00:45 -0000 Message-ID: <82BA6331B95D4017B9000EE4CEB8AE00@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20811041128o594aa90eu81447f6bbf771b79@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 07:00:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TWFyayBEYXZpcyB3cm90ZToKCj4gQXMgZmFyIGFzIEknbSBjb25jZXJuZWQsIHdlJ2QgaGF2ZSBi ZXR0ZXIgaW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eSBpZiB3ZSBuZXZlciAKPiBjaGFuZ2VkIGNvZGVzIGZvciBq dXN0IGEgbmFtZSBjaGFuZ2UuIFRoYXQgaXMsIGluIGZhY3QsIHRoZSByZWFzb24gd2h5IAo+IHdl IG5vcm1hbGl6ZWQgdG8gJ2l3JyBpbiBKYXZhLgoKSSB0aGluayB0aGlzIHRha2VzIHRoZSBwcmlu Y2lwbGUgdG9vIGZhci4gICdpdycgd2FzIGRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgaW4gZmF2b3IgCm9mICdoZScgYWxt b3N0IDIwIHllYXJzIGFnbywgd2hlbiB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIElTTyA2MzkgaW4gY29tcHV0ZXIgCmFw cGxpY2F0aW9ucyB3YXMgbXVjaCBsZXNzIGNvbW1vbiB0aGFuIGFkLWhvYyBjb2Rpbmcgc3lzdGVt cywgYW5kIHdlbGwgCmJlZm9yZSBKYXZhIHdhcyBjcmVhdGVkLiAgVGhlIGdvYWwgaXMgdG8gYXZv aWQgY2h1cm4sIGFuZCBzdGFuZGFyZGl6aW5nIApvbiBhbiBhbHJlYWR5LWRlcHJlY2F0ZWQgY29k ZSBhdCB0aGUgdGltZSBtb3JlIG5ldyBkYXRhIGlzIGJlaW5nIGNyZWF0ZWQgCndpdGggdGhlIG5l dyBjb2RlIHRoYW4gZXhpc3RlZCB3aXRoIHRoZSBvbGQgY29kZSB3b3VsZCBwcm9iYWJseSBpbmNy ZWFzZSAKY2h1cm4uCgpPZiBjb3Vyc2UsIHRoYXQncyBhbGwgaW4gdGhlIHBhc3Qgbm93LCBidXQg SSBwcmVmZXIgdGhlICJEYXRlIEEvRGF0ZSBCIiAKYXBwcm9hY2ggd2UgdG9vayBpbiBMVFJVLgoK LS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAq ICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRt bC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcK aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 06:32:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A9B3A6A29; 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05 Nov 2008 14:32:28 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 07:32:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEFzIGEgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yLCBJIHRoaW5rIHdlIHNo b3VsZCBiZSBleHRyZW1lbHkgd2FyeSBvZiAKPiBkb2luZyBhbnl0aGluZyB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IGJl IHBlcmNlaXZlZCBhcyBlbmNvdXJhZ2luZyB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIAo+IHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1YnRh Z3MgaW4gdGhlIHNsaWdodGVzdCwgZHVlIHRvIHRoZWlyIGRpcmUgY29uc2VxdWVuY2VzIAo+IGZv ciBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LgoKSSBjYW4gdGhpbmsgb2Ygc29tZXRoaW5nIG11Y2ggd29yc2Ug Zm9yIGludGVyb3BlcmFiaWxpdHkgdGhhbiAKImVuY291cmFnaW5nIiBwcml2YXRlLXVzZSBzdWJ0 YWdzLiAgQnkgc3Ryb25nbHkgZGlzY291cmFnaW5nIHRoZW0gYW5kIAp0cnlpbmcgdG8gYXZvaWQg bWVudGlvbiBvZiB0aGVtLCB3ZSBsZWF2ZSB1c2VycyB0byBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IG9uIHRoZWlyIApv d24gaG93IHRvIHNvbHZlIHRoZWlyIChyZWFsIG9yIHBlcmNlaXZlZCkgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgdGFn Z2luZyBuZWVkcy4gCk1vcmUgb2Z0ZW4gdGhhbiBub3QsIHdpdGhvdXQgZ3VpZGFuY2UsIHRoZXkg d2lsbCBkbyB0aGlzIGJ5IGdyYWJiaW5nIAoidW51c2VkIiAyLSBhbmQgMy1sZXR0ZXIgY29kZXMg bm90IGZvdW5kIGluIHRoZSBJU08gbGlzdHMgb3IgUmVnaXN0cnksIAphbmQgZ2l2aW5nIHRoZWly IG93biBtZWFuaW5nIHRvIHRoZW0sIG9yIGV2ZW4gInJlcHVycG9zaW5nIiBjb2RlcyB0aGF0IAph cmUgYWxyZWFkeSBhc3NpZ25lZC4gIFRoaXMgaXMgbm90IGh5cG90aGV0aWNhbDsgaXQgd2FzIGRv bmUgaW4gSW50ZXJuZXQgCkV4cGxvcmVyIDYsIGFuZCB0aGUgcHJhY3RpY2UgY29udGludWVzIGlu IFdpa2ltZWRpYSAoImJhdC1zbWciKS4KCkEgdmFsaWQgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgdGFnIGlzIE1VQ0gg YmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gYW4gaW52YWxpZCBvbmUsIGFuZCBpZiB3ZSAKZGVueSB0aGUgdmFsaWQgb25l cywgdGhhdCBpcyB0aGUgYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmUgbWFueSBwZW9wbGUgd2lsbCBjaG9vc2UuCgotLQpE b3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVU TiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNo YXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhiAKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0 cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 06:36:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43AB93A6A29; 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s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Owb7VRoQ/uvndIaOb8WJMNKkv+gw1XfJLiYftcbvUU8=; b=OAWNobnKGogHXNcXpzNo20xTIYeI0Kudgj1qEX426njYfuLe7l3s1lWfFGAPvtCMVC 9Edrt8Wxoi0s6rRm8ozZUA+oXv6w75PrQ7uKatEwTOofMS5ZABXwH6fg/9yfQZlEWDVz kem2659wiY+zqGLPGZK9/2x3QkGl6WeIaDgek= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=SgMy4zY6itGPF6SY5VzHrHwQg7vyZ0OOxu4zp7IyokLi5yEmHs3mhQctkd+zCyVE7u hCAqrMvoW6dwVT+c76f3pcwXSArd/iR8EzVgiGkTVfWcDtTwi708HQvFeRXD3bVaVMKi gbr9gV0wHBX7+H5BGDHC3TvlL/uIZcWi5SEKA= Received: by 10.143.44.17 with SMTP id w17mr476185wfj.242.1225895804746; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 06:36:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:36:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811050636y703c7848yf835c5afe8556949@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:36:44 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <82BA6331B95D4017B9000EE4CEB8AE00@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <40B91C875C1B430A8E8D021BD7DAB44D@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20811041128o594aa90eu81447f6bbf771b79@mail.gmail.com> <82BA6331B95D4017B9000EE4CEB8AE00@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b589b6ec88fa83a6 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "SHALL NOT be rejected" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2087943739==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 06:38:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E9D23A68B3; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:38:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11F593A68BD for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b8SWRI2pzeIc for ; 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Wed, 05 Nov 2008 06:38:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:38:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 06:38:04 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 73f6240641317b02 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1389889438==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1389889438== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5306_14922477.1225895884491" ------=_Part_5306_14922477.1225895884491 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSBhZ3JlZS4gVGhlcmUgaXMgY2xlYXJseSBhIHBsYWNlIGZvciBwcml2YXRlIHVzZSBjb2Rlcywg YW5kIHdlIHdhbnQgdG8KcHJvdmlkZSBleGFtcGxlcyBvZiAnZ29vZCcgdXNhZ2UuCk1hcmsKCgpP biBXZWQsIE5vdiA1LCAyMDA4IGF0IDY6MzIgQU0sIERvdWcgRXdlbGwgPGRvdWdAZXdlbGxpYy5v cmc+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiBSYW5keSBQcmVzdWhuIDxyYW5keSB1bmRlcnNjb3JlIHByZXN1aG4gYXQg bWluZHNwcmluZyBkb3QgY29tPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+ICBBcyBhIHRlY2huaWNhbCBjb250cmlidXRv ciwgSSB0aGluayB3ZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgZXh0cmVtZWx5IHdhcnkgb2YgZG9pbmcKPj4gYW55dGhp bmcgdGhhdCBtaWdodCBiZSBwZXJjZWl2ZWQgYXMgZW5jb3VyYWdpbmcgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBwcml2 YXRlLXVzZQo+PiBzdWJ0YWdzIGluIHRoZSBzbGlnaHRlc3QsIGR1ZSB0byB0aGVpciBkaXJlIGNv bnNlcXVlbmNlcyBmb3IKPj4gaW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eS4KPj4KPgo+IEkgY2FuIHRoaW5rIG9m IHNvbWV0aGluZyBtdWNoIHdvcnNlIGZvciBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5IHRoYW4gImVuY291cmFn aW5nIgo+IHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1YnRhZ3MuICBCeSBzdHJvbmdseSBkaXNjb3VyYWdpbmcgdGhl bSBhbmQgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIGF2b2lkCj4gbWVudGlvbiBvZiB0aGVtLCB3ZSBsZWF2ZSB1c2VycyB0 byBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IG9uIHRoZWlyIG93biBob3cgdG8gc29sdmUKPiB0aGVpciAocmVhbCBvciBw ZXJjZWl2ZWQpIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHRhZ2dpbmcgbmVlZHMuIE1vcmUgb2Z0ZW4gdGhhbiBub3Qs Cj4gd2l0aG91dCBndWlkYW5jZSwgdGhleSB3aWxsIGRvIHRoaXMgYnkgZ3JhYmJpbmcgInVudXNl ZCIgMi0gYW5kIDMtbGV0dGVyCj4gY29kZXMgbm90IGZvdW5kIGluIHRoZSBJU08gbGlzdHMgb3Ig UmVnaXN0cnksIGFuZCBnaXZpbmcgdGhlaXIgb3duIG1lYW5pbmcKPiB0byB0aGVtLCBvciBldmVu ICJyZXB1cnBvc2luZyIgY29kZXMgdGhhdCBhcmUgYWxyZWFkeSBhc3NpZ25lZC4gIFRoaXMgaXMg bm90Cj4gaHlwb3RoZXRpY2FsOyBpdCB3YXMgZG9uZSBpbiBJbnRlcm5ldCBFeHBsb3JlciA2LCBh bmQgdGhlIHByYWN0aWNlIGNvbnRpbnVlcwo+IGluIFdpa2ltZWRpYSAoImJhdC1zbWciKS4KPgo+ IEEgdmFsaWQgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgdGFnIGlzIE1VQ0ggYmV0dGVyIHRoYW4gYW4gaW52YWxpZCBv bmUsIGFuZCBpZiB3ZSBkZW55Cj4gdGhlIHZhbGlkIG9uZXMsIHRoYXQgaXMgdGhlIGFsdGVybmF0 aXZlIG1hbnkgcGVvcGxlIHdpbGwgY2hvb3NlLgo+Cj4gLS0KPiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9y bnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQKPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNo YXJ0ZXIuaHRtbAo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2ll dGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cj4K ------=_Part_5306_14922477.1225895884491 Content-Type: text/html; 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charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1389889438==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 08:11:16 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48B23A6A22; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:11:16 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A42283A6A22 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:11:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qolR8W-hG+6V for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:11:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FF33A69F1 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:11:14 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,551,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="132809522" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2008 16:11:08 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA5GB8EV009531 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:11:09 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:11:08 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 08:11:06 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 Thread-Index: Ack+3uPpKI3ZQtXyRmOWiBu4J0RPaQAKnOsA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0152101C08@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1ccb01c93ccc$74d23d20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811041511v2a2d0ae4xa9d326c1c7443161@mail.gmail.com> <092801c93ede$e0738a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <092801c93ede$e0738a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The alternative is to use a completely contrived example. I have no objection to doing so, except that contrived examples are must less useful than real ones. The SIL example we replaced is now completely obsolete (this document replaced the need for it). Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 4:39 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > > > That was discussed at great length earlier. We did want to use a > concrete > > example. And the tag "es-419-x-ldml-collatio-traditio" IS a > valid language > > tag, and is used as such. > > As co-chair... > > In the discussion (issue MD 4 in February of 2008) Randy Presuhn > and Peter > Constable objected to the proposal. Mark Davis and Addison > Phillips > argued for it. My reading of the discussion was that there was > indeed > agreement to get rid of the old text (SIL example), but I don't see > consensus to add the LDML example. As a technical contributor, I > think > we should be extremely wary of doing anything that might be > perceived as > encouraging the use of private-use subtags in the slightest, due to > their dire > consequences for interoperability. However, since I'm a party to > the > discussion, I'd like co-chair Martin to make the call. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 09:50:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69273A6B2D; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:50:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD89E3A6B2D for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:50:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i1Y0neQL+8ij for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 335B83A6825 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:50:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=jpuZvDfaWoOmodGKMzVxXFdVywZAseJdI9dagY64+KZbbM04z70m40oFvU8aPjGA; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.85.163] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KxmWM-0007KA-7x for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 12:50:22 -0500 Message-ID: <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:50:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e49c781b895b91f5a2c6444b321f0f63ea350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.85.163 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:38 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > I agree. There is clearly a place for private use codes, and we want to > provide examples of 'good' usage. ... As a technical contributor... An example of "good" usage would be fine, but this is not one of them. When published in a specification like that, they are almost certain to show up on the wire and to "leak" into environments which are not party to the private use agreement. This use case is a prime example of what should have been handled using an extension registry. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 10:06:20 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B073A68C1; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:06:20 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3671E3A68C1 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:06:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AIQvl1LvqnrK for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37F513A684F for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:06:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so71606yxg.49 for ; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 10:05:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Dc2waoSzEUM+0m+2rqbCgQiTikStv8snnkZuIjE+9X0=; b=W6O0A9PJT2+n04/WNkW3va82Jd8/R3Ifpiitkpzrncs3TYmF2VWnCJvqDPvNEh2Jv4 wlk9AwmNrV8EtQDoISujNWYk1IvzvO+t7wbVr2/Ih7kUqh1MzMohpe9dBz6Uo4oFZkCM X/DJeIUIIaH1gYXc1ic9MZaVj3dUTlQVNmmqY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=RI838ftTKhJv/hAu4QOb5kYjl1tRxS8kqd+m/OT7iPB74TyFVn9/KgKMkO/lAS3sS2 inRl4JVfn7NhP46Itj+LrDQnT9W/Gntgpdeo6Pmqos7F7OFbTStcdYpN+KCV/ZVwlCkN iibDUcJNPosJHetDTG2X/3kIFTxql1FZ0J3zw= Received: by 10.143.5.21 with SMTP id h21mr579754wfi.175.1225908300211; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 10:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:05:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 10:05:00 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5e4b1a5f96f3cb58 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1573248536==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1573248536== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_9176_6176353.1225908300202" ------=_Part_9176_6176353.1225908300202 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think that's orthogonal. Any case that could be handled via extension is a perfectly good example of what can be done with private use codes *until* such an extension would be accepted. Mark On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Doug Ewell" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:38 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > > > > I agree. There is clearly a place for private use codes, and we want to > > provide examples of 'good' usage. > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > An example of "good" usage would be fine, but this is not one of them. > When published in a specification like that, they are almost certain > to show up on the wire and to "leak" into environments which are not > party to the private use agreement. This use case is a prime example > of what should have been handled using an extension registry. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_9176_6176353.1225908300202 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I think that's orthogonal. Any case that could be handled via extension is a perfectly good example of what can be done with private use codes *until* such an extension would be accepted.
 
Mark


On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 9:50 AM, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7
>

> I agree. There is clearly a place for private use codes, and we want to
> provide examples of 'good' usage.
...

As a technical contributor...

An example of "good" usage would be fine, but this is not one of them.
When published in a specification like that, they are almost certain
to show up on the wire and to "leak" into environments which are not
party to the private use agreement.  This use case is a prime example
of what should have been handled using an extension registry.

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_9176_6176353.1225908300202-- --===============1573248536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1573248536==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 11:06:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A94C13A6A28; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:06:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B0403A6A25 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:06:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.444 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.444 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.155, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WzO1+Z-fWk2W for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55D333A67F7 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:06:44 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Yx9P73qUDdgc0uNuwFFx+gkUW5dMWD/a7h5ccB93pVGrfknsIvnp/Od3OUGpjpKX; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.85.163] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kxnhf-0007bl-1T for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:06:07 -0500 Message-ID: <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:06:25 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e45a94eb0662116ec3c1ca13de44d594ef350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.85.163 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:05 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > I think that's orthogonal. Any case that could be handled via extension is a > perfectly good example of what can be done with private use codes *until* > such an extension would be accepted. As a technical contributor... No, that's just not so. RFC 4646 says: "Private use subtags are NOT RECOMMENDED where alternatives exist or for general interchange." "They SHOULD NOT be used where alternatives exist and SHOULD NOT be used in content or protocols intended for general use." "Private use subtags are simply useless for information exchange without prior arrangement." So, if the LDML example is intended for use in "general interchange" or in "content or protocols intended for general use", then I see it as a clearly inapproriate application of private use subtags. An *appropriate* use might be within a personnel database which cannot be published due to privacy regulations, or as an internal markup (not stored in persistent files) used by a word processor. As soon as these things leak out, the possibility of collisions arises. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 11:21:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 696AE3A6842; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:21:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE7D3A6842 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:21:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qOUvT5KK2buN for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860423A67F7 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:21:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kxnw3-0002oM-Pw; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:20:59 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 14:20:59 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081105192059.GA522@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:05 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > > > I think that's orthogonal. Any case that could be handled via extension is a > > perfectly good example of what can be done with private use codes *until* > > such an extension would be accepted. > > As a technical contributor... > > RFC 4646 says: > "Private use subtags are NOT RECOMMENDED where alternatives exist > or for general interchange." > "They SHOULD NOT be used where alternatives exist and SHOULD NOT > be used in content or protocols intended for general use." > "Private use subtags are simply useless for information exchange > without prior arrangement." I think this is a case where a user would want to override a SHOULD NOT. As RFC 2119 says: This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed before implementing any behavior described with this label. There does exist a valid reason in the particular circumstances of the CLDR, namely the lack of an extension registry for collations, and the fact that there's no serious prospect of getting one in future. What is more, there does exist prior arrangement in this case: this tag is used as a unique label for one member of a large collection. It is not being used to label an arbitrary document fed into a document-consuming service from who-knows-where. -- Where the wombat has walked, John Cowan it will inevitably walk again. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 11:33:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE2A28C166; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:33:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C8EA28C155 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:33:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.466 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.466 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d-UEoVaFpD7o for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:33:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 294AB3A6A9F for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:33:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qftq9PVyEOlyY5DAfN6PIrcJUbhfzsoybWMXII+dAy4U4ORp2v3HT/MYq7SnlLJK; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.85.163] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Kxo7b-0007Pu-5c for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:32:55 -0500 Message-ID: <003e01c93f7d$59124040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081105192059.GA522@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 11:33:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e40448a7c78d042195ed49f12b0972cdec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.85.163 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:20 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > Hi - > > > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > > To: "Randy Presuhn" > > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:05 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 > > > > > > I think that's orthogonal. Any case that could be handled via extension is a > > > perfectly good example of what can be done with private use codes *until* > > > such an extension would be accepted. > > > > As a technical contributor... > > > > > RFC 4646 says: > > "Private use subtags are NOT RECOMMENDED where alternatives exist > > or for general interchange." > > "They SHOULD NOT be used where alternatives exist and SHOULD NOT > > be used in content or protocols intended for general use." > > "Private use subtags are simply useless for information exchange > > without prior arrangement." > > I think this is a case where a user would want to override a SHOULD NOT. > As RFC 2119 says: > > This phrase, or the phrase "NOT RECOMMENDED" mean that > there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances when the > particular behavior is acceptable or even useful, but the full > implications should be understood and the case carefully weighed > before implementing any behavior described with this label. > > There does exist a valid reason in the particular circumstances of the > CLDR, namely the lack of an extension registry for collations, and the > fact that there's no serious prospect of getting one in future. That's circular reasoning. The correct (IMO) course of action would have been for the CLDR people to define an extension registry for this purpose. > What is more, there does exist prior arrangement in this case: this tag > is used as a unique label for one member of a large collection. > It is not being used to label an arbitrary document fed into a > document-consuming service from who-knows-where. If these things are guaranteed to never show up on the wire or in general use protocols like HTTP, or leak into contexts where language tags would be expected, I won't worry about them. But I'm not yet persuaded that there are sufficient safeguards to prevent leakage. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 12:12:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 410B73A693E; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:12:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEEF63A67F8 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:12:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A6uKVX4g-Coq for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A4283A693E for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:12:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kxoic-0008E0-7g; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 15:11:10 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 15:11:10 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081105201110.GC522@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081105192059.GA522@mercury.ccil.org> <003e01c93f7d$59124040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <003e01c93f7d$59124040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > There does exist a valid reason in the particular circumstances of the > > CLDR, namely the lack of an extension registry for collations, and the > > fact that there's no serious prospect of getting one in future. > > That's circular reasoning. The correct (IMO) course of action would have > been for the CLDR people to define an extension registry for this purpose. Which would have taken them just how long, especially in the teeth of proven anti-extension obstructionists such as John Cowan? -- I don't know half of you half as well John Cowan as I should like, and I like less than half cowan@ccil.org of you half as well as you deserve. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Bilbo _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 12:49:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E013A6AFA; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:49:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A78613A6864 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:49:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8HyM91RJjli0 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:49:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E7D3A6A72 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:49:40 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,552,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="132946931" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Nov 2008 20:49:12 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mA5Kn9DT018896 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 5 Nov 2008 20:49:09 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:49:09 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 12:49:08 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 Thread-Index: Ack/gtZSR94RfuxTRaG9czNu8WO9GAAA+3Ww Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0152101FAC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081105192059.GA522@mercury.ccil.org> <003e01c93f7d$59124040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081105201110.GC522@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081105201110.GC522@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGVyaGFwcyB3ZSBzaG91bGQganVzdCBjcmVhdGUgYSBoeXBvdGhldGljYWwsIHRoZW4uIFRoZSBj dXJyZW50IHRleHQgc2F5czoNCg0KLS0NCkZvciBleGFtcGxlOiBUaGUgVW5pY29kZSBDb25zb3J0 aXVtIGRlZmluZXMgYSBzZXQgb2YgcHJpdmF0ZSB1c2UgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucyBpbiBMRE1MIChbVVRT MzVdIChEYXZpcywgTS4sIOKAnFVuaWNvZGUgVGVjaG5pY2FsIFN0YW5kYXJkICMzNTogTG9jYWxl IERhdGEgTWFya3VwIExhbmd1YWdlIChMRE1MKSzigJ0gRGVjZW1iZXIgMjAwNy4pLCBMb2NhbGUg RGF0YSBNYXJrdXAgTGFuZ3VhZ2UsIHRoZSBVbmljb2RlIHN0YW5kYXJkIGZvciBkZWZpbmluZyBs b2NhbGUgZGF0YSkgc3VjaCBhcyBpbiB0aGUgdGFnICJlcy00MTkteC1sZG1sLWNvbGxhdGlvLXRy YWRpdGlvIiwgd2hpY2ggaW5kaWNhdGVzIExhdGluIEFtZXJpY2FuIFNwYW5pc2ggd2l0aCB0cmFk aXRpb25hbCBvcmRlciBmb3Igc29ydGVkIGxpc3RzLg0KLS0NCg0KV2UgY291bGQgcmVwbGFjZSBp dCB3aXRoIHNvbWV0aGluZyBsaWtlOg0KDQotLQ0KRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHN1cHBvc2UgYSBncm91 cCBvZiBzY2hvbGFycyBhcmUgc3R1ZHlpbmcgYSBncm91cCBvZiB0ZXh0cyBpbiBtZWRpZXZhbCBH cmVlay4gVGhleSBtaWdodCBhZ3JlZSB0byB1c2UgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2Ugc3VidGFncyB0byBpZGVu dGlmeSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc3R5bGVzIG9mIHdyaXRpbmcgaW4gdGhlIHRleHRzLiBGb3IgZXhhbXBs ZSwgdGhleSBtaWdodCB1c2UgJ2VsLXgta29pbmUnIGZvciBkb2N1bWVudHMgaW4gdGhlICJjb21t b24iIHN0eWxlIHdoaWxlIHVzaW5nICdlbC14LWF0dGljJyBmb3Igb3RoZXIgZG9jdW1lbnRzIHRo YXQgbWltaWMgdGhlIEF0dGljIHN0eWxlLiBUaGVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSByZWNv Z25pemVkIGJ5IG91dHNpZGVyIHByb2Nlc3NlcyBvciBzeXN0ZW1zLCBidXQgbWlnaHQgYmUgdXNl ZnVsIGluIGNhdGVnb3JpemluZyB2YXJpb3VzIHRleHRzIGZvciBzdHVkeSBieSBvdGhlcnMgaW4g dGhlIGdyb3VwLg0KLS0NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0 aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEg ZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3Nh Z2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5j ZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uDQo+IEJlaGFsZiBPZiBKb2huIENvd2FuDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2Rh eSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMDUsIDIwMDggMTI6MTEgUE0NCj4gVG86IFJhbmR5IFByZXN1aG4NCj4gQ2M6 IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIHJmYzQ2NDZiaXMtMTgg ZXhhbXBsZSBpbiAyLjIuNw0KPiANCj4gUmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiBzY3JpcHNpdDoNCj4gDQo+ID4g PiBUaGVyZSBkb2VzIGV4aXN0IGEgdmFsaWQgcmVhc29uIGluIHRoZSBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIGNpcmN1 bXN0YW5jZXMNCj4gb2YgdGhlDQo+ID4gPiBDTERSLCBuYW1lbHkgdGhlIGxhY2sgb2YgYW4gZXh0 ZW5zaW9uIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGZvciBjb2xsYXRpb25zLA0KPiBhbmQgdGhlDQo+ID4gPiBmYWN0IHRo YXQgdGhlcmUncyBubyBzZXJpb3VzIHByb3NwZWN0IG9mIGdldHRpbmcgb25lIGluIGZ1dHVyZS4N Cj4gPg0KPiA+IFRoYXQncyBjaXJjdWxhciByZWFzb25pbmcuICBUaGUgY29ycmVjdCAoSU1PKSBj b3Vyc2Ugb2YgYWN0aW9uDQo+IHdvdWxkIGhhdmUNCj4gPiBiZWVuIGZvciB0aGUgQ0xEUiBwZW9w bGUgdG8gZGVmaW5lIGFuIGV4dGVuc2lvbiByZWdpc3RyeSBmb3IgdGhpcw0KPiBwdXJwb3NlLg0K PiANCj4gV2hpY2ggd291bGQgaGF2ZSB0YWtlbiB0aGVtIGp1c3QgaG93IGxvbmcsIGVzcGVjaWFs bHkgaW4gdGhlIHRlZXRoDQo+IG9mDQo+IHByb3ZlbiBhbnRpLWV4dGVuc2lvbiBvYnN0cnVjdGlv bmlzdHMgc3VjaCBhcyBKb2huIENvd2FuPw0KPiANCj4gLS0NCj4gSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGhhbGYg b2YgeW91IGhhbGYgYXMgd2VsbCAgICAgICAgICAgSm9obiBDb3dhbg0KPiBhcyBJIHNob3VsZCBs aWtlLCBhbmQgSSBsaWtlIGxlc3MgdGhhbiBoYWxmICAgICBjb3dhbkBjY2lsLm9yZw0KPiBvZiB5 b3UgaGFsZiBhcyB3ZWxsIGFzIHlvdSBkZXNlcnZlLg0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNjaWwub3JnL35j b3dhbg0KPiAgICAgICAgIC0tQmlsYm8NCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0K PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCl9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0 cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 13:04:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBF4C3A6AC3; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:04:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F9B28C152 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:04:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d27QWiqcUgkK for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:04:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 855C43A6AF1 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:04:45 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=I3fiu+u9TD4Q7yXb0SmNe0UQ43mcqf3yljKo6MxwC/qJCdQUEUW3JMHysvyTztaL; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SGkgLQoKPiBGcm9tOiAiUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24iIDxhZGRpc29uQGFtYXpvbi5jb20+Cj4g VG86ICJKb2huIENvd2FuIiA8Y293YW5AY2NpbC5vcmc+OyAiUmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiIgPHJhbmR5 X3ByZXN1aG5AbWluZHNwcmluZy5jb20+Cj4gQ2M6ICJMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAiIDxsdHJ1 QGlldGYub3JnPgo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMDUsIDIwMDggMTI6NDkgUE0K PiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogW0x0cnVdIHJmYzQ2NDZiaXMtMTggZXhhbXBsZSBpbiAyLjIuNwo+Cj4g UGVyaGFwcyB3ZSBzaG91bGQganVzdCBjcmVhdGUgYSBoeXBvdGhldGljYWwsIHRoZW4uIFRoZSBj dXJyZW50IHRleHQgc2F5czoKPgo+IC0tCj4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGU6IFRoZSBVbmljb2RlIENvbnNv cnRpdW0gZGVmaW5lcyBhIHNldCBvZiBwcml2YXRlIHVzZSBleHRlbnNpb25zIGluIExETUwgKFtV VFMzNV0gKERhdmlzLCBNLiwg4oCcVW5pY29kZSBUZWNobmljYWwKU3RhbmRhcmQgIzM1OiBMb2Nh bGUgRGF0YSBNYXJrdXAgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgKExETUwpLOKAnSBEZWNlbWJlciAyMDA3LiksIExvY2Fs ZSBEYXRhIE1hcmt1cCBMYW5ndWFnZSwgdGhlIFVuaWNvZGUgc3RhbmRhcmQgZm9yIGRlZmluaW5n CmxvY2FsZSBkYXRhKSBzdWNoIGFzIGluIHRoZSB0YWcgImVzLTQxOS14LWxkbWwtY29sbGF0aW8t dHJhZGl0aW8iLCB3aGljaCBpbmRpY2F0ZXMgTGF0aW4gQW1lcmljYW4gU3BhbmlzaCB3aXRoIHRy YWRpdGlvbmFsIG9yZGVyIGZvcgpzb3J0ZWQgbGlzdHMuCj4gLS0KPgo+IFdlIGNvdWxkIHJlcGxh Y2UgaXQgd2l0aCBzb21ldGhpbmcgbGlrZToKPgo+IC0tCj4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHN1cHBvc2Ug YSBncm91cCBvZiBzY2hvbGFycyBhcmUgc3R1ZHlpbmcgYSBncm91cCBvZiB0ZXh0cyBpbiBtZWRp ZXZhbCBHcmVlay4gVGhleSBtaWdodCBhZ3JlZSB0byB1c2UgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UKc3VidGFncyB0 byBpZGVudGlmeSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgc3R5bGVzIG9mIHdyaXRpbmcgaW4gdGhlIHRleHRzLiBGb3Ig ZXhhbXBsZSwgdGhleSBtaWdodCB1c2UgJ2VsLXgta29pbmUnIGZvciBkb2N1bWVudHMgaW4gdGhl ICJjb21tb24iCnN0eWxlIHdoaWxlIHVzaW5nICdlbC14LWF0dGljJyBmb3Igb3RoZXIgZG9jdW1l bnRzIHRoYXQgbWltaWMgdGhlIEF0dGljIHN0eWxlLiBUaGVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBi ZSByZWNvZ25pemVkIGJ5IG91dHNpZGVyCnByb2Nlc3NlcyBvciBzeXN0ZW1zLCBidXQgbWlnaHQg YmUgdXNlZnVsIGluIGNhdGVnb3JpemluZyB2YXJpb3VzIHRleHRzIGZvciBzdHVkeSBieSBvdGhl cnMgaW4gdGhlIGdyb3VwLgo+IC0tCgpBcyBhIHRlY2huaWNhbCBjb250cmlidXRvciwgSSBsaWtl IHRoaXMgcHJvcG9zYWwgdmVyeSBtdWNoLgpJdCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgbXkgY29uY2VybnMgbmljZWx5 LgoKQXMgY28tY2hhaXIsICppZiogdGhlIFdHIGRlY2lkZXMgdGhhdCBzb21ldGhpbmcgc2hvdWxk IGJlCmRvbmUgaGVyZSwgd2UnbGwgcHJvYmFibHkgZW5kIHVwIGhhbmRsaW5nIGl0IGluIHRoZSBz YW1lIHdheQphcyBhbiBJRVRGIGxhc3QgY2FsbCBjb21tZW50LCBzaW5jZSB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBp LWQgaXMgd2hhdCBJCmJlbGlldmUgd2UnbGwgYmUgaGFuZGluZyBvZmYgdG8gb3VyIEFELgoKUmFu ZHkKCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 13:07:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70CA3A6820; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:07:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9540D28B797 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:07:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yHIB2nM2-wCZ for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D4B3A6A8B for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 13:07:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kxpam-0005at-9x; Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:07:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 16:07:08 -0500 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20081105210708.GD522@mercury.ccil.org> References: <30b660a20811050638g777ea708ha9d8f49dbacf2b7a@mail.gmail.com> <002701c93f6f$03f0c400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811051005q416b747dx400f51b30eb61d71@mail.gmail.com> <001d01c93f79$9a6e91a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081105192059.GA522@mercury.ccil.org> <003e01c93f7d$59124040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081105201110.GC522@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0152101FAC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA0152101FAC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Phillips, Addison scripsit: > For example, suppose a group of scholars are studying a group of texts > in medieval Greek. They might agree to use private-use subtags to > identify different styles of writing in the texts. For example, they > might use 'el-x-koine' for documents in the "common" style while using > 'el-x-attic' for other documents that mimic the Attic style. These > subtags would not be recognized by outsider processes or systems, but > might be useful in categorizing various texts for study by others in > the group. +1 -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless. For living or dark undead, I will smite you if you touch him. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 19:48:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB20B3A68F9; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:48:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A00BF3A68F9 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:48:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.219, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qaIyYTYMhrXG for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9083A3A67FA for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 19:48:56 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 12758 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2008 03:48:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.95) with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2008 03:48:51 -0000 Message-ID: <292E041B10904FE89AC59760230CD973@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 20:48:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IFJGQyA0NjQ2IHNheXM6Cj4gICAgIlByaXZhdGUgdXNlIHN1YnRhZ3Mg YXJlIE5PVCBSRUNPTU1FTkRFRCB3aGVyZSBhbHRlcm5hdGl2ZXMgZXhpc3QKPiAgICAgb3IgZm9y IGdlbmVyYWwgaW50ZXJjaGFuZ2UuIgo+ICAgICJUaGV5IFNIT1VMRCBOT1QgYmUgdXNlZCB3aGVy ZSBhbHRlcm5hdGl2ZXMgZXhpc3QgYW5kIFNIT1VMRCBOT1QKPiAgICAgYmUgdXNlZCBpbiBjb250 ZW50IG9yIHByb3RvY29scyBpbnRlbmRlZCBmb3IgZ2VuZXJhbCB1c2UuIgo+ICAgICJQcml2YXRl IHVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzIGFyZSBzaW1wbHkgdXNlbGVzcyBmb3IgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gZXhjaGFuZ2UK PiAgICAgd2l0aG91dCBwcmlvciBhcnJhbmdlbWVudC4iCgpJIHNhaWQgYXQgdGhlIHRpbWUgd2Ug YWRkZWQgYWxsIHRoaXMgc2Nhcnkgd29yZGluZywgYW5kIHN0aWxsIGJlbGlldmUsIAp0aGF0IHRo ZSBhY3R1YWwgZGFtYWdlIHRoYXQgd291bGQgcmVzdWx0IGZyb20gcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgKFBVKSB0 YWdzIGFuZCAKc3VidGFncyBsZWFraW5nIG91dHNpZGUgdGhlIHByaXZhdGUtYWdyZWVtZW50IHNw YWNlIGlzIG92ZXJzdGF0ZWQuICBPdXIgCmV4cGVyaWVuY2UsIHN1Y2ggYXMgaXQgaXMsIHdpdGgg UFUgIngtbXVtYmxlIiB0YWdzIHNpbmNlIFJGQyAxNzY2IGFuZCAKdGFncyB3aXRoIFBVICIteC1t dW1ibGUiIHN1YnRhZ3Mgc2luY2UgUkZDIDQ2NDYgc2ltcGx5IGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2hvdyAKd2lkZXNw cmVhZCBldmlkZW5jZSBvZiBhIGJyZWFrZG93biBpbiBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5IGNhdXNlZCBi eSBhYnVzZSAKb2YgdGhlIFBVIG1lY2hhbmlzbS4KCkFkaGVyZW5jZSB0byB0aGUgcHJpdmF0ZS1h Z3JlZW1lbnQgcHJpbmNpcGxlIHNob3VsZCBiZSB0aGUgCnJlc3BvbnNpYmlsaXR5IG9mIHRoZSB0 YWcgY29uc3VtZXIgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyB0aGUgdGFnIHByb2R1Y2VyLiAgSWYgYSAKdGFnIGNvbnN1 bWVyIGVuY291bnRlcnMgYSB0YWcgbGlrZSAiaWQteC1hcGFwdW4iIGFuZCB3YXNuJ3QgZXhwZWN0 aW5nIAp0aGF0IHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgUFUgc3VidGFnLCBpdCBzaG91bGQganVzdCB0aHJvdyB0aGUg c3VidGFnIGF3YXkgYW5kIAppbnRlcnByZXQgImlkIi4gIElmIGl0IGVuY291bnRlcnMgYSBQVSB3 aG9sZSB0YWcgbGlrZSAieC1rYXJrb2xpIiwgaXQgCnNob3VsZCB0aHJvdyB0aGUgd2hvbGUgdGhp bmcgYXdheSBhbmQgdHJlYXQgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgYXMgdW50YWdnZWQuCgpUaGUgc3RhbmRhcmQg d29yc3QtdXNlLWNhc2UgaXMgaWYgSSBhbSBwYXJ0eSB0byBhIHByaXZhdGUgYWdyZWVtZW50IHRo YXQgCiJ4LWZub3JkIiBtZWFucyBvbmUgdGhpbmcsIGFuZCB5b3UgYXJlIHBhcnR5IHRvIGEgKmRp ZmZlcmVudCogcHJpdmF0ZSAKYWdyZWVtZW50IHRoYXQgIngtZm5vcmQiIG1lYW5zIHNvbWV0aGlu ZyBlbHNlLCBhbmQgSSBwdXQgbXkgIngtZm5vcmQiIApjb250ZW50IG91dCBvbiB0aGUgbmV0IGFu ZCB5b3UgcGljayBpdCB1cC4gIFN1cmUgZW5vdWdoLCB3ZSBoYXZlIGFuIApicmVha2Rvd24gaW4g aW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eS4gIEJ1dCBoYXZlIHdlIHNlZW4gYW55IGV2aWRlbmNlIHRoYXQgdGhp cyAKc29ydCBvZiB0aGluZyBpcyBoYXBwZW5pbmcgYW5kIGNhdXNpbmcgcHJvYmxlbXMgaW4gdGhl IHJlYWwgd29ybGQ/ICBNb3N0IApsaWtlbHksIGlmIHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgdXNpbmcgUFUgdGFncyBh bmQgc3VidGFncywgdGhleSdyZSBwcm9iYWJseSBlaXRoZXIgCnNvIG9ic2N1cmUgdGhhdCB0aGUg cHJvYmFiaWxpdHkgb2YgY29sbGlzaW9ucyBpcyBtaW51c2N1bGUsIG9yIHNvIApvYnZpb3VzIHRo YXQgYW55IGNvbGxpc2lvbnMgYXJlIG1vc3RseSBoYXJtbGVzcy4gIEFueW9uZSB3YW50IHRvIGd1 ZXNzIAp3aGF0IGNvbnRlbnQgdGFnZ2VkICJlbi14LXBpZ2xhdGluIiB3b3VsZCBsb29rIGxpa2U/ ICBXaG8gd291bGQgdXNlIHRoaXMgClBVIHN1YnRhZyB0byBtZWFuIGFueXRoaW5nIGVsc2U/CgpJ J20gbm90IGFyZ3VpbmcgdGhhdCBldmVyeW9uZSBzaG91bGQgdGhyb3cgdGhlaXIgUFUgdGFncyBp bnRvIGEgYmlnIAptZWx0aW5nIHBvdCBhbmQgd2Ugc3RhcnQgcGxheWluZyAidGFnIHJvdWxldHRl IiB0cnlpbmcgdG8gZ3Vlc3Mgd2hhdCAKZWFjaCBvdGhlcidzIHRhZ3MgbWVhbi4gIEJ1dCBhbGwg dGhlc2UgQXJtYWdlZGRvbiBzY2VuYXJpb3MgYXJlIApvdmVyYmxvd24gSU1ITywgY29tcGFyZWQg dG8gdGhlIHZlcnkgcmVhbCAoYW5kIHByb3ZlbikgZGFuZ2VyIG9mIHBlb3BsZSAKaWdub3Jpbmcg dGhlIHNwZWMgYWx0b2dldGhlciBhbmQganVzdCBpbnZlbnRpbmcgdGhlaXIgb3duIHRhZ3MuIApX aWtpbWVkaWEgdXNlcyAidG9raXBvbmEiIGZvciBUb2tpIFBvbmEuICBXb3VsZG4ndCBpdCBiZSBi ZXR0ZXIgaWYgdGhleSAKdXNlZCAieC10b2tpcG9uYSIsIGV2ZW4gaW4gdGhlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2Yg YSBmb3JtYWwgcHJpdmF0ZSBhZ3JlZW1lbnQ/IApSZWFsaXN0aWNhbGx5IC0tIG5vdCB0aGVvcmV0 aWNhbGx5IC0tIHdvdWxkIHRoaXMgdGFnIHJlYWxseSBiZSAic2ltcGx5IAp1c2VsZXNzIj8KCi0t CkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAg VVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwu Y2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 22:02:05 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2903A6889; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:02:05 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C403A6889 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:02:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9hRRZfOlUYUH for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7963A6842 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:02:03 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=cyYloSWb1l+O5DSu+MvmKn8qBp5x2A6M+LcFtujMbaJPOeBit0piKgX2rnV7SPXG; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.6.169] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KxxwO-0002vw-VE for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:02:01 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c93fd5$3af3a600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <292E041B10904FE89AC59760230CD973@DGBP7M81> Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:02:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4304683c5252c5ae54cd7257dd4c615a8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.6.169 Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18 example in2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 7:48 PM > Subject: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18 example in2.2.7) > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > > > RFC 4646 says: > > "Private use subtags are NOT RECOMMENDED where alternatives exist > > or for general interchange." > > "They SHOULD NOT be used where alternatives exist and SHOULD NOT > > be used in content or protocols intended for general use." > > "Private use subtags are simply useless for information exchange > > without prior arrangement." > > I said at the time we added all this scary wording, and still believe, > that the actual damage that would result from private-use (PU) tags and > subtags leaking outside the private-agreement space is overstated. Our > experience, such as it is, with PU "x-mumble" tags since RFC 1766 and > tags with PU "-x-mumble" subtags since RFC 4646 simply doesn't show > widespread evidence of a breakdown in interoperability caused by abuse > of the PU mechanism. > > Adherence to the private-agreement principle should be the > responsibility of the tag consumer as well as the tag producer. If a > tag consumer encounters a tag like "id-x-apapun" and wasn't expecting > that particular PU subtag, it should just throw the subtag away and > interpret "id". If it encounters a PU whole tag like "x-karkoli", it > should throw the whole thing away and treat the content as untagged. > > The standard worst-use-case is if I am party to a private agreement that > "x-fnord" means one thing, and you are party to a *different* private > agreement that "x-fnord" means something else, and I put my "x-fnord" > content out on the net and you pick it up. Sure enough, we have an > breakdown in interoperability. But have we seen any evidence that this > sort of thing is happening and causing problems in the real world? Most > likely, if people are using PU tags and subtags, they're probably either > so obscure that the probability of collisions is minuscule, or so > obvious that any collisions are mostly harmless. Anyone want to guess > what content tagged "en-x-piglatin" would look like? Who would use this > PU subtag to mean anything else? > > I'm not arguing that everyone should throw their PU tags into a big > melting pot and we start playing "tag roulette" trying to guess what > each other's tags mean. But all these Armageddon scenarios are > overblown IMHO, compared to the very real (and proven) danger of people > ignoring the spec altogether and just inventing their own tags. > Wikimedia uses "tokipona" for Toki Pona. Wouldn't it be better if they > used "x-tokipona", even in the absence of a formal private agreement? > Realistically -- not theoretically -- would this tag really be "simply > useless"? ... As co-chair - if you really want to re-open section 4.6 of http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt please send text. But if we start down this path, then I really think we should not pass it to the IESG, but rather take it back into the working group until we can find agreement on this issue, and do another WG last call. I don't want to go there, but if we can't resolve something as fundamental as 4.6, we have no business trying to pass this off as a BCP. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Nov 5 22:15:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F29503A6824; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD683A6784 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:15:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id niuWFjRPGRZ0 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C4F3A6824 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 2008 22:14:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Kxy8t-0001zG-Cq; Thu, 06 Nov 2008 01:14:55 -0500 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 01:14:55 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081106061455.GA423@mercury.ccil.org> References: <292E041B10904FE89AC59760230CD973@DGBP7M81> <000601c93fd5$3af3a600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000601c93fd5$3af3a600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18 example in2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > Wikimedia uses "tokipona" for Toki Pona. Wouldn't it be better if they > > used "x-tokipona", even in the absence of a formal private agreement? > > Realistically -- not theoretically -- would this tag really be "simply > > useless"? > ... > > As co-chair - if you really want to re-open section 4.6 of > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt > please send text. I definitely don't want to go there, so the scary language can stand. People will ignore it anyhow. I meant to say earlier that expecting CLDR to become the registration authority for an extension registry of collations is not reasonable: it's outside their remit. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge], has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between. --A.E. Housman _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 6 06:10:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFCBE3A68C1; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:10:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6603A682A for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:10:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.202, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o70eRz50zXyy for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DAF843A6A2B for ; Thu, 6 Nov 2008 06:10:44 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16649 invoked from network); 6 Nov 2008 14:10:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 06 Nov 2008 14:10:05 -0000 Message-ID: <3DBD490012FF449BA2ED261F3C30CEB4@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 07:10:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEFzIGNvLWNoYWlyIC0gaWYgeW91IHJlYWxseSB3YW50IHRvIHJlLW9w ZW4gc2VjdGlvbiA0LjYgb2YKPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9k cmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NmJpcy0xOC50eHQKPiBwbGVhc2Ugc2VuZCB0ZXh0LgoKSSBkbyBu b3QgcHJvcG9zZSBhbnkgY2hhbmdlcyB0byB0ZXh0LiAgKEkgYWxtb3N0IHNhaWQgc28gaW4gbXkg cHJldmlvdXMgCnBvc3QsIGJ1dCB0aG91Z2h0IGl0IHdhcyBldmlkZW50LikgIEkgd2FzIHJlc3Bv bmRpbmcgaW5kaXJlY3RseSB0byBZT1VSIApsYXRlIGNvbW1lbnQgdG8gY2hhbmdlIHRoZSAieC1j b2xsYXRpby10cmFkaXRpbyIgZXhhbXBsZSwgYW5kIGRpcmVjdGx5IAp0byB5b3VyIHJlbWFyayB0 aGF0ICJ3ZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgZXh0cmVtZWx5IHdhcnkgb2YgZG9pbmcgYW55dGhpbmcgdGhhdCAK bWlnaHQgYmUgcGVyY2VpdmVkIGFzIGVuY291cmFnaW5nIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2YgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2Ug c3VidGFncyBpbiB0aGUgCnNsaWdodGVzdCwgZHVlIHRvIHRoZWlyIGRpcmUgY29uc2VxdWVuY2Vz IGZvciBpbnRlcm9wZXJhYmlsaXR5LiIKClRoZSBXRyBoYXMgc29tZSBtZW1iZXJzIHdobyBhZ3Jl ZSB3aXRoIHlvdXIgYXNzZXNzbWVudCBvZiBwcml2YXRlLXVzZSwgCmFuZCBzb21lIHdobyBhZ3Jl ZSB3aXRoIG1pbmUuICBBcyBsb25nIGFzIHdlIGRvbid0IGNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIHRvdWdoZW4gCnVw IHRoZSB3b3JkaW5nLCB0byB0aGUgcG9pbnQgd2hlcmUgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgaXMgInN0cm9uZ2x5 IGRpc2NvdXJhZ2VkIiAKb3IgZGVwcmVjYXRlZCBvciBzaW1pbGFyLCB0aGVuIEkgY2FuIGxpdmUg d2l0aCB0aGUgY3VycmVudCB0ZXh0LiAKT3RoZXJ3aXNlIEkgd291bGQgaGF2ZSBwcm9wb3NlZCBz b21ldGhpbmcgZGlmZmVyZW50IGxvbmcgYmVmb3JlIHRoZSAxMnRoIApob3VyIHdoaWNoIHdlIGFy ZSBub3cgaW4uCgo+IEJ1dCBpZiB3ZSBzdGFydCBkb3duIHRoaXMgcGF0aCwgdGhlbiBJIHJlYWxs eQo+IHRoaW5rIHdlIHNob3VsZCBub3QgcGFzcyBpdCB0byB0aGUgSUVTRywgYnV0IHJhdGhlciB0 YWtlIGl0IGJhY2sgaW50bwo+IHRoZSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIHVudGlsIHdlIGNhbiBmaW5kIGFn cmVlbWVudCBvbiB0aGlzIGlzc3VlLCBhbmQgZG8KPiBhbm90aGVyIFdHIGxhc3QgY2FsbC4gIEkg ZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCB0byBnbyB0aGVyZSwgYnV0IGlmIHdlIGNhbid0Cj4gcmVzb2x2ZSBzb21ldGhp bmcgYXMgZnVuZGFtZW50YWwgYXMgNC42LCB3ZSBoYXZlIG5vIGJ1c2luZXNzIHRyeWluZyB0bwo+ IHBhc3MgdGhpcyBvZmYgYXMgYSBCQ1AuCgpBbGwgb2YgdXMgYXJlIGVxdWFsbHkgd2l0aGluIG91 ciByaWdodHMgdG8gbWFrZSBjb21tZW50cy4KCi0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBD b2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMu b3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwK aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMg IMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 9 18:44:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EFA83A681A; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:44:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449CF3A681A for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:44:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.717 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WrpnnfXTukZV for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:44:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69D53A6803 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 18:44:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id mAA2iUGt004495 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:44:34 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0833_7fc762ec_aed1_11dd_82e7_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:44:30 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:36829) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:36:52 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081110111553.0a7b16f0@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:18:46 +0900 To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <20081106061455.GA423@mercury.ccil.org> References: <292E041B10904FE89AC59760230CD973@DGBP7M81> <000601c93fd5$3af3a600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081106061455.GA423@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18example in2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 15:14 08/11/06, John Cowan wrote: >Randy Presuhn scripsit: > >> > Wikimedia uses "tokipona" for Toki Pona. Wouldn't it be better if they >> > used "x-tokipona", even in the absence of a formal private agreement? >> > Realistically -- not theoretically -- would this tag really be "simply >> > useless"? >> ... >> >> As co-chair - if you really want to re-open section 4.6 of >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt >> please send text. > >I definitely don't want to go there, so the scary language can stand. >People will ignore it anyhow. Good. I think Doug has a point, in that in practice private use tags haven't hurt interoperability too much. But I guess this is because enough people understand private use (sub)tags are a bad idea. And that may be (in part) because we use the (scary) language we do. So I agree that we should leave the language as it is. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Nov 10 06:28:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097A53A6A2F; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:28:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139A33A6A1E for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:28:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.004 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.004 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.018, BAYES_50=0.001, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d4huWX4AsdLT for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E3EB3A6A2F for ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:28:32 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 16730 invoked from network); 10 Nov 2008 14:28:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 10 Nov 2008 14:28:26 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:28:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18 example in 2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Received: from [69.3.144.92] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1KzcFA-0002OQ-LQ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:16:13 -0500 Message-ID: <005001c94368$de46a000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 11:16:42 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4bde7ba77f07817d217846ef6c2cc0b56350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.144.92 Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18example in 2.2.7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 6:28 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] In defense of private-use (was: Re: rfc4646bis-18example in 2.2.7) > > Martin Duerst wrote: > > > Good. I think Doug has a point, in that in practice private use > > tags haven't hurt interoperability too much. But I guess this is > > because enough people understand private use (sub)tags are a bad > > idea. And that may be (in part) because we use the (scary) language > > we do. So I agree that we should leave the language as it is. > > Good. Again, I did not propose changing any text; I was arguing against > Randy's suggestion to change text that has been in the draft for half a > year. As a technical contributor... I have not suggested that we change the normative language regarding private use subtags. The suggestion was to remove an example on the grounds that that example didn't meet the criteria set forth for use of private use tags. Though that point is disputed, Addison Phillips suggested a replacement example, to which both John Cowan and I favorably responded. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Nov 11 15:44:59 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D21EE3A698D; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:44:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B5FE3A698D for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:44:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UNMAxtWpeqKp for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:44:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378B3A67B4 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:44:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=aonJyrAWMS50vhQRRBYAv93UuWxT5fe82IlfJtMfp0YtGVk4xN2p1LYGGo+wvltN; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:x-mimeole:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.6.138] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L02uh-0003Th-VW for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:44:52 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c94457$931a7d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:45:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e49383e9174dd9fa20e7953c0b2d503d82350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.6.138 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Announcement: New Boilerplate Text Required for all new Submissionsto IETF X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Forwarded for your information. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Juskevicius" To: "IETF Discussion" ; ; ; ; ; "RFC Editor" ; Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2008 3:03 PM Subject: Announcement: New Boilerplate Text Required for all new Submissionsto IETF Greetings. This message is to draw your attention to the significance of the publication of RFC5377 and RFC5378 earlier today. * RFC5377 is Advice to the Trustees of the IETF Trust on Rights to Be Granted in IETF Documents * RFC5378 is Rights Contributors Provide to the IETF Trust Note that RFC5378 is also BCP0078. RFC5378 is an update to RFC2026, and RFC5378 obsoletes both RFC3978 and RFC4748. Coincident with the above, the IETF Trustees have posted a new policy document with guidance to the community on: * Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents at http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info/ Taken as a set, the documents listed above specify changes that are now required in all new submissions into the IETF. Henrik Levkowetz has updated the idnit tool and AMS have updated the Internet-Draft submission tool to reflect the new requirements. An update to the xml2rfc has been requested. Please review the "Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents" and RFC5378 to discover the new boilerplate text that is now required. Please also take action to update the tools you use for creating your documents. New submissions using either the old or the new boilerplate text will be accepted starting today, until 01h00 UTC on December 16th, 2008. After this cutoff date, all new submissions will be required to use ONLY the new boilerplate text. All submissions using old boilerplate text after the cutoff date will be rejected. Regards and FYI. Ed Juskevicius IETF Trust Chair edj@nortel.com p.s. - Don't be surprised if you see periodic reminders about this as we approach December 16th. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 16 17:26:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD77D3A67FF; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:26:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D1C3A67A1 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:26:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O6g2dqpg81a1 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout10.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.238]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 779233A676A for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 17:26:31 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26610 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2008 01:26:28 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.238) with ESMTP; 17 Nov 2008 01:26:28 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:26:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org TGFzdCB3ZWVrIEkgcmVjZWl2ZWQgdGhyZWUgZWRpdG9yaWFsIGNvbW1lbnRzIGFib3V0IGRyYWZ0 LTQ2NDViaXMtMDcgCmZyb20gc29tZW9uZSB3aG9tIEkgaGF2ZSBub3Qgc2VlbiBwYXJ0aWNpcGF0 ZSBpbiB0aGUgV0cgYmVmb3JlLiAgUGVyaGFwcyAKaGUgd2FzIGp1c3QgYSB0b3VyaXN0IHBlcnVz aW5nIHRoZSBsaXN0IG9mIGN1cnJlbnQgSS1EcyBhbmQgdGhpcyBvbmUgCmNhdWdodCBoaXMgZXll LgoKSW4gYW55IGNhc2UsIHRoZSBjb21tZW50cyBzZWVtZWQgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBlbm91Z2ggKGFs dGhvdWdoIEkgZGlzYWdyZWVkIAp3aXRoIG9uZSkgYW5kLCBmb3Igb25jZSwgd2VyZSBiYXNlZCBv biByZWFkaW5nIHRoZSBwcm9zZSBpbnN0ZWFkIG9mIGp1c3QgCnJ1bm5pbmcgdGhlIHByb3Bvc2Vk IFJlZ2lzdHJ5IHRocm91Z2ggYSB0b29sIG9mIHNvbWUga2luZC4gIFRoZXkgY2FuIGJlIApzdW1t YXJpemVkIGFzIGZvbGxvd3M6CgoxLiAgQ2hhbmdlIHRoZSBxdW90YXRpb25hbCBzdHlsZSB0byBi ZSBjb25zaXN0ZW50bHkgIkJyaXRpc2gtc3R5bGUiIApyYXRoZXIgdGhhbiAiQW1lcmljYW4tc3R5 bGUiLCB3aXRoIHBlcmlvZHMgYW5kIGNvbW1hcyBvdXRzaWRlIHRoZSAKcXVvdGF0aW9uIG1hcmtz IHdoZW4gdGhleSBhcmUgbm90IHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIHF1b3RlLCBhcyBpbGx1c3RyYXRlZCBpbiAK dGhpcyBzZW50ZW5jZS4gIEFwcGFyZW50bHkgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGlzIGluY29uc2lzdGVudCBpbiB0 aGlzIHJlZ2FyZCBhdCAKcHJlc2VudC4gIEkgYWdyZWVkIHdpdGggdGhpcyBzdWdnZXN0aW9uLgoK Mi4gIENoYW5nZSB0aGUgcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRhZ3MgZm9yIElTTyA2MzktMyBkYXRhIGZpbGVzIGxp a2UgCiJbaXNvLTYzOS0zXzIwMDgxMDIzXSIgdG8gc29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UgIltJU082MzktM18y MDA4MTAyM10iIGZvciAKY29uc2lzdGVuY3kgd2l0aCB0aGUgc3R5bGUgdXNlZCBmb3IgdGhlIHRh Z3MgZm9yIHRoZSBhY3R1YWwgc3RhbmRhcmRzIAoobGlrZSAiW0lTTzYzOS0zXSIpLiAgSSBkaXNh Z3JlZWQgYmVjYXVzZSBJIGZlbHQgdGhpcyBwYXJ0aWN1bGFyIHR5cGUgb2YgCmNvbnNpc3RlbmN5 IHdhcyBsZXNzIGltcG9ydGFudCB0aGFuIGtlZXBpbmcgdGhlIGFjdHVhbCwgdW5tb2RpZmllZCBm aWxlIApuYW1lcyBhcyB0aGUgdGFncy4KCjMuICBGaXggdGhlIHJhdGhlciBicm9rZW4gcmVmZXJl bmNlIHRleHQgZm9yICJbVU5fTS40OV0iLiAgSSBhZ3JlZWQgdGhhdCAKb25lIG9mIHRoZSB0d28g cmVmZXJlbmNlcyB0byAiU3RhbmRhcmQgQ291bnRyeSBvciBBcmVhIENvZGVzIGZvciAKU3RhdGlz dGljYWwgVXNlIiBzaG91bGQgYmUgcmVtb3ZlZC4KCkFzIHlvdSBjYW4gc2VlLCBub25lIG9mIHRo ZXNlIGNoYW5nZXMgaXMgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGluIG5hdHVyZS4KClNpbmNlIHRoaXMgV0cgaXMgb25j ZSBhZ2FpbiBnb2luZyB0aHJvdWdoIGEgcGVyaW9kIG9mIGluYWN0aXZpdHksIGRvZXMgCml0IG1h a2Ugc2Vuc2UgdG8gZGlzY3VzcyB0aGVzZSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgY2hhbmdlcyB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIFdH IGFuZC9vciAKc3RhcnQgYSBuZXcgZHJhZnQtNDY0NWJpcy0wOCB0aGF0IGluY29ycG9yYXRlcyBz b21lIG9yIGFsbCBvZiB0aGVtPwoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRv LCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0 cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8v d3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5m by9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 16 18:05:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA533A676A; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:05:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134E23A676A for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:05:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYFneaU6FEtG for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 162C03A6358 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:05:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Hk8RlS+oVCHNZIedNF5O7V5jPA0YVEGb5WJwF4hg0gQZ6OrABfecBfkhpcEYIuGg; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:x-mimeole:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.38.104] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L1tUG-0001lw-Db for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:05:12 -0500 Message-ID: <003b01c94859$08dd9b80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 18:05:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e46daa939b82a9e8d0342c427ff2c9df19350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.38.104 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As Co-chair... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:26 PM > Subject: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments > > Last week I received three editorial comments about draft-4645bis-07 > from someone whom I have not seen participate in the WG before. Perhaps > he was just a tourist perusing the list of current I-Ds and this one > caught his eye. > > In any case, the comments seemed reasonable enough (although I disagreed > with one) and, for once, were based on reading the prose instead of just > running the proposed Registry through a tool of some kind. They can be > summarized as follows: > > 1. Change the quotational style to be consistently "British-style" > rather than "American-style", with periods and commas outside the > quotation marks when they are not part of the quote, as illustrated in > this sentence. Apparently the draft is inconsistent in this regard at > present. I agreed with this suggestion. IETF documents aren't consistent in this regard. Note that the required internet-draft boilerplate contains "American-style" quotes. I don't know whether fiddling with those would cause the id-nits processing to barf. Though consistency is nice, I wouldn't worry too much about this, and am happy leaving it to whatever makes both the editor and in-nits happy. > 2. Change the reference tags for ISO 639-3 data files like > "[iso-639-3_20081023]" to something like "[ISO639-3_20081023]" for > consistency with the style used for the tags for the actual standards > (like "[ISO639-3]"). I disagreed because I felt this particular type of > consistency was less important than keeping the actual, unmodified file > names as the tags. Agreed. I've wrestled with the xml2rfc to get tags more to my liking, and concluded it wasn't worth the battle. > 3. Fix the rather broken reference text for "[UN_M.49]". I agreed that > one of the two references to "Standard Country or Area Codes for > Statistical Use" should be removed. Yup. > As you can see, none of these changes is technical in nature. > > Since this WG is once again going through a period of inactivity, does > it make sense to discuss these suggested changes within the WG and/or > start a new draft-4645bis-08 that incorporates some or all of them? I've been waiting for a response from co-chair Martin - I assume he's overly busy. Since the i-d submission window re-opens tomorrow, let's submit the latest and greatest text of *BOTH* drafts, so there will be no outstanding issues when we hand it off to the IESG. Also, it would be really really useful to have a "show of hands" from the folks who have read recent versions of either or both drafts. You can reply to the list, or to me and Martin directly. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 16 19:49:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F2A3A6862; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:49:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4E9428C0F7 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:49:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zfJC7hlH0f-t for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:49:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98C83A681C for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:49:39 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,616,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="140102808" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 17 Nov 2008 03:49:39 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mAH3nb1t000441 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 03:49:37 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:49:36 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:49:34 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclIWPDFTxU9jqAvQPeXlRwQ0iOuZQADlk1w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01526F6645@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <003b01c94859$08dd9b80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <003b01c94859$08dd9b80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The 4646bis co-editors will submit a new draft-19 based on collected comments (including those below) sometime tomorrow. Most likely quoting styles and ISO references will remain as they are. We will fix the M.49 references. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 6:06 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments > > Hi - > > As Co-chair... > > > From: "Doug Ewell" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:26 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments > > > > Last week I received three editorial comments about draft- > 4645bis-07 > > from someone whom I have not seen participate in the WG before. > Perhaps > > he was just a tourist perusing the list of current I-Ds and this > one > > caught his eye. > > > > In any case, the comments seemed reasonable enough (although I > disagreed > > with one) and, for once, were based on reading the prose instead > of just > > running the proposed Registry through a tool of some kind. They > can be > > summarized as follows: > > > > 1. Change the quotational style to be consistently "British- > style" > > rather than "American-style", with periods and commas outside the > > quotation marks when they are not part of the quote, as > illustrated in > > this sentence. Apparently the draft is inconsistent in this > regard at > > present. I agreed with this suggestion. > > IETF documents aren't consistent in this regard. Note that the > required > internet-draft boilerplate contains "American-style" quotes. I > don't know > whether fiddling with those would cause the id-nits processing to > barf. > Though consistency is nice, I wouldn't worry too much about this, > and > am happy leaving it to whatever makes both the editor and in-nits > happy. > > > 2. Change the reference tags for ISO 639-3 data files like > > "[iso-639-3_20081023]" to something like "[ISO639-3_20081023]" > for > > consistency with the style used for the tags for the actual > standards > > (like "[ISO639-3]"). I disagreed because I felt this particular > type of > > consistency was less important than keeping the actual, > unmodified file > > names as the tags. > > Agreed. I've wrestled with the xml2rfc to get tags more to my > liking, > and concluded it wasn't worth the battle. > > > 3. Fix the rather broken reference text for "[UN_M.49]". I > agreed that > > one of the two references to "Standard Country or Area Codes for > > Statistical Use" should be removed. > > Yup. > > > As you can see, none of these changes is technical in nature. > > > > Since this WG is once again going through a period of inactivity, > does > > it make sense to discuss these suggested changes within the WG > and/or > > start a new draft-4645bis-08 that incorporates some or all of > them? > > I've been waiting for a response from co-chair Martin - I assume > he's > overly busy. Since the i-d submission window re-opens tomorrow, > let's submit the latest and greatest text of *BOTH* drafts, so > there will be no outstanding issues when we hand it off to the > IESG. > > Also, it would be really really useful to have a "show of hands" > from the folks who have read recent versions of either or both > drafts. You can reply to the list, or to me and Martin directly. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 16 19:51:29 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CF1A3A683F; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:51:29 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18C453A6862 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:51:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.81 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IV0uSrzSaqKH for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40EEE3A681C for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 19:51:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse1 [133.2.253.16]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id mAH3pOVa000637 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:51:24 +0900 (JST) Received: from (133.2.206.133) by scmse1.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp via smtp id 0796_00ec7c8e_b45b_11dd_966c_0014221fa3c9; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:51:24 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:51263) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:43:41 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081117124130.0a90f148@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 12:44:24 +0900 To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <003b01c94859$08dd9b80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <003b01c94859$08dd9b80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org At 11:05 08/11/17, Randy Presuhn wrote: >Hi - > >As Co-chair... [me too] >> From: "Doug Ewell" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:26 PM >> Subject: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments >> >> Last week I received three editorial comments about draft-4645bis-07 >> from someone whom I have not seen participate in the WG before. Perhaps >> he was just a tourist perusing the list of current I-Ds and this one >> caught his eye. >> >> In any case, the comments seemed reasonable enough (although I disagreed >> with one) and, for once, were based on reading the prose instead of just >> running the proposed Registry through a tool of some kind. They can be >> summarized as follows: >> >> 1. Change the quotational style to be consistently "British-style" >> rather than "American-style", with periods and commas outside the >> quotation marks when they are not part of the quote, as illustrated in >> this sentence. Apparently the draft is inconsistent in this regard at >> present. I agreed with this suggestion. > >IETF documents aren't consistent in this regard. Note that the required >internet-draft boilerplate contains "American-style" quotes. I don't know >whether fiddling with those would cause the id-nits processing to barf. >Though consistency is nice, I wouldn't worry too much about this, and >am happy leaving it to whatever makes both the editor and in-nits happy. > >> 2. Change the reference tags for ISO 639-3 data files like >> "[iso-639-3_20081023]" to something like "[ISO639-3_20081023]" for >> consistency with the style used for the tags for the actual standards >> (like "[ISO639-3]"). I disagreed because I felt this particular type of >> consistency was less important than keeping the actual, unmodified file >> names as the tags. > >Agreed. I've wrestled with the xml2rfc to get tags more to my liking, >and concluded it wasn't worth the battle. > >> 3. Fix the rather broken reference text for "[UN_M.49]". I agreed that >> one of the two references to "Standard Country or Area Codes for >> Statistical Use" should be removed. > >Yup. I agree with Randy on the above points. >> As you can see, none of these changes is technical in nature. >> >> Since this WG is once again going through a period of inactivity, does >> it make sense to discuss these suggested changes within the WG and/or >> start a new draft-4645bis-08 that incorporates some or all of them? > >I've been waiting for a response from co-chair Martin - I assume he's >overly busy. Yes indeed. > Since the i-d submission window re-opens tomorrow, >let's submit the latest and greatest text of *BOTH* drafts, so >there will be no outstanding issues when we hand it off to the >IESG. This is what I wanted to propose, too. I know the IESG doesn't like it if there are outstanding issues. The first thing you hear is: "submit another draft, then we will look at it". So Doug, Addison, Mark, please coordinate on this the way you did for the last round. Thanks! >Also, it would be really really useful to have a "show of hands" >from the folks who have read recent versions of either or both >drafts. You can reply to the list, or to me and Martin directly. Yes indeed. Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 16 21:34:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04C573A6A28; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:34:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247773A6A28 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 2008 21:33:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.385 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.385 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.201, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFKuwKfiq05h for ; 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17 Nov 2008 15:43:07 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mAHFh5ud021028 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:43:06 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:43:05 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 07:43:04 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclIdhroYIga5YXOR0CS9cjxH3Ol9AAVC1wQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01526F692C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > The 4646bis co-editors will submit a new draft-19 based on > collected > > comments (including those below) sometime tomorrow. > > I guess that means to coordinate things, I should be submitting > draft-4645bis-08, with a reference to draft-4646bis-19, dated > November 2008. Yes. > > I would appreciate it if, in return, draft-4646bis-19 would update > its > reference to [registry-update] to call it by its correct name, and > give > it a date of November 2008, not September 2006. I will replace the reference ID with [draft-4645bis]. > > > Most likely quoting styles and ISO references will remain as they > are. > > We will fix the M.49 references. > > The form I plan to use in draft-4645bis is: > > [UN_M.49] Statistics Division, United Nations, "Standard Country > or > Area Codes for Statistical Use", Revision 4 (United > Nations publication, Sales No. 98.XVII.9), June 1999. Great minds and all that. I made that change in draft-19 last night. Actually, I set the XML to be: Standard Country or Area Codes for Statistical Use Statistics Division, United Nations Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 21 10:23:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C202B3A67D9; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:23:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D951D3A68CC for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:23:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ApNrCSO+NSxq for ; 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b=Zgg1FJvRMh8PCxd7zdGWbsOObXKZ1HMiLqK+bx0f6A57cdUbTJyo455ppcBZlERGZW v0vK4B+Rt8UEtAIUr+2VMshLUI5jGUmRxK9kqeWFcqto3XdM6/5eCSCZJ/UWS/O8MJak iN0xJXxOVcmnIsEV8AXAVz296QaZ4pt3dBLJU= Received: by 10.142.173.14 with SMTP id v14mr411809wfe.53.1227291795957; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:23:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:23:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811211023y5cd881b5lea1464d94c7c3e84@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:23:15 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 24f147b1c20fdfa6 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RG91ZywgSSBjb3VsZG4ndCBmaW5kIHlvdXIgZHJhZnQgdXNpbmcgaHR0cDovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnL2h0bWwvCgpNYXJrCgoKCk9uIFN1biwgTm92IDE2LCAyMDA4IGF0IDIxOjMzLCBEb3VnIEV3 ZWxsIDxkb3VnQGV3ZWxsaWMub3JnPiB3cm90ZToKPiAiUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24iIDxhZGRp c29uIGF0IGFtYXpvbiBkb3QgY29tPiB3cm90ZToKPgo+PiBUaGUgNDY0NmJpcyBjby1lZGl0b3Jz IHdpbGwgc3VibWl0IGEgbmV3IGRyYWZ0LTE5IGJhc2VkIG9uIGNvbGxlY3RlZAo+PiBjb21tZW50 cyAoaW5jbHVkaW5nIHRob3NlIGJlbG93KSBzb21ldGltZSB0b21vcnJvdy4KPgo+IEkgZ3Vlc3Mg dGhhdCBtZWFucyB0byBjb29yZGluYXRlIHRoaW5ncywgSSBzaG91bGQgYmUgc3VibWl0dGluZwo+ IGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDViaXMtMDgsIHdpdGggYSByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gZHJhZnQtNDY0NmJpcy0xOSwg ZGF0ZWQgTm92ZW1iZXIgMjAwOC4KPgo+IEkgd291bGQgYXBwcmVjaWF0ZSBpdCBpZiwgaW4gcmV0 dXJuLCBkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzLTE5IHdvdWxkIHVwZGF0ZSBpdHMKPiByZWZlcmVuY2UgdG8gW3Jl Z2lzdHJ5LXVwZGF0ZV0gdG8gY2FsbCBpdCBieSBpdHMgY29ycmVjdCBuYW1lLCBhbmQgZ2l2ZSBp dCBhCj4gZGF0ZSBvZiBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDA4LCBub3QgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDIwMDYuCj4KPiBJbiBh ZGRpdGlvbiB0byB0aGUgY2hhbmdlcyBhbHJlYWR5IG1lbnRpb25lZCwgdGhpcyB2ZXJzaW9uIHdp bGwgaW5jbHVkZSB0aGUKPiBJU08gNjM5LWJhc2VkIHVwZGF0ZXMgdG8gc3VidGFncyAncm8nIGFu ZCAnbW8nIGN1cnJlbnRseSBpbiBhIHdhaXRpbmcgcGVyaW9kCj4gb24gaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMu Cj4KPj4gTW9zdCBsaWtlbHkgcXVvdGluZyBzdHlsZXMgYW5kIElTTyByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHdpbGwg cmVtYWluIGFzIHRoZXkgYXJlLiBXZQo+PiB3aWxsIGZpeCB0aGUgTS40OSByZWZlcmVuY2VzLgo+ Cj4gVGhlIGZvcm0gSSBwbGFuIHRvIHVzZSBpbiBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzIGlzOgo+Cj4gW1VOX00u NDldICBTdGF0aXN0aWNzIERpdmlzaW9uLCBVbml0ZWQgTmF0aW9ucywgIlN0YW5kYXJkIENvdW50 cnkgb3IKPiAgICAgICAgICBBcmVhIENvZGVzIGZvciBTdGF0aXN0aWNhbCBVc2UiLCBSZXZpc2lv biA0IChVbml0ZWQKPiAgICAgICAgICBOYXRpb25zIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uLCBTYWxlcyBOby4gOTgu WFZJSS45KSwgSnVuZSAxOTk5Lgo+Cj4gSG9wZWZ1bGx5IHRoaXMgd2lsbCBiZSB0aGUgZm9ybSB1 c2VkIGluIGRyYWZ0LTQ2NDZiaXMgYXMgd2VsbC4gIEkgc2VlIG5vCj4gcmVhc29uIGZvciB1cyB0 byBkaWZmZXIgb24gdGhpcy4KPgo+IC0tCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9y YWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9y Zwo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwK PiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdl cyAgy4YKPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwo+ IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3Jn L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo+Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 21 10:25:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94E13A68E7; 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h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=1hK3dB3U5KhsiCekqLfGE+gosQER5aoZ90cRSRMwqs8=; b=U1+eccqH7UVREFQHpkjT8gHxNE+f0FH/zU8UC4vn82FPV2n20hATDKkyP55rNvHQLZ X0VfLBCKS97AokcqvBkrG7JH4HgwTZmhbWqZYQd5Tgalm8+YfsriWKtTlc8gd1/ueBaQ l8dj2zjk0tF8K0Qcx3wsPsUKXBSLcAuMH4Uus= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=QKtL7GIjbl0bB4iwPDP4wLqgkDT8pW+29gQ+xQ3PHyWCLLQ89gTBlU/bsHUgIo2Ueu npiKfdPlabi6Lqwi/EwYBL4E+Vw+vP0ksbe71pMXpCPJGMP5zx2DQiEoVCg5nZgGji5r 2mEQy8a2J4W3a13az2eRbyUOKRIC/8toXV9Do= Received: by 10.142.71.16 with SMTP id t16mr392818wfa.273.1227291895972; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:24:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:24:55 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811211024o73a600e6h2536e178d1b83815@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:24:55 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <30b660a20811211023y5cd881b5lea1464d94c7c3e84@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <30b660a20811211023y5cd881b5lea1464d94c7c3e84@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b8dfde1a8268b204 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; 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Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:10:23 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:10:13 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclMDMerlmPNXbJmnkOL5RSNSCj+GA== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L3bOZ-0005Xb-7h. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1L3bOZ-0005Xb-7h be3d21834b1ac85afd452b892917ed4b Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Some more very late comments (not that I want to delay matters): 1) The "language" entries are grouped by "two-letter codes" and "three-letter codes", which I don't find very helpful. I would find it better to group by "Scope" instead. 2) We have the entry: Type: language Subtag: son Description: Songhai languages Added: 2005-10-16 Suppress-Script: Latn Scope: collection To me, at least, it seems inappropriate to have a "Suppress-Script" for a collection code, even if the script given is used for all languages covered by the collection code. IIUC Zarma is a Songhai language, but there is no Suppress-Script noted for that language: Type: language Subtag: dje Description: Zarma Added: 2029-09-09 The other similar case is the entry: Type: language Subtag: cpe Description: English-based creoles and pidgins Added: 2005-10-16 Suppress-Script: Latn Scope: collection Again, I find it inappropriate to have a "Suppress-Script" for a collection code. I'm not sure why "son" and "cpe" ever got a "Suppress-Script". /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 21 20:23:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A8E3A69FB; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:23:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00953A69FB for ; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:23:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KrTd39q9jLUM for ; 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Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:01:17 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 12:01:06 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclMkZ3ogW5dHjLHgUai/c+cELcKmQ== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L3qEm-0007gq-6E. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L3qEm-0007gq-6E 8c93d73c0cf4bd072c001207d4e04f7f Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-11-22 05.23, skrev "Doug Ewell" : > Kent Karlsson wrote: > Type: language > > Subtag: son > Description: Songhai languages > > Added: 2005-10-16 > Suppress-Script: Latn > Scope: collection > To > me, at least, it seems inappropriate to have a "Suppress-Script" > for a > collection code, even if the script given is used for all > languages > covered by the collection code. IIUC Zarma is a Songhai > language, but > there is no Suppress-Script noted for that language: > Type: language > > Subtag: dje > Description: Zarma > Added: 2029-09-09 Once again, we pay > the price for having agreed on Suppress-Script as a > compromise. Suppress-Script is an informative field (like Scope), meant to > encourage tag producers to omit script subtags deemed on a one-by-one basis > to be unnecessary, and to provide a hint to tag consumers trying to match a > tag that has a script with one that does not. There are lots and lots of > inconsistencies in the way Suppress-Scripts have been doled out, and there > always will be, because there will never be agreement about how to implement > it. That may be. But the two I mentioned stand out as particularly inappropriate. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 22 09:19:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6A93A69C0; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:19:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889FA3A69C0 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost 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h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=bTkqlett3jw8DtyJy2hq0TUZ1wPzAZd7O5T1HEnmeyrvC3x5orL7nKDApyXdZGfuL0 yzySHcKc2o31pZ890kngwbN0LJ/2uPqNCD+HeJ9aj6tkEBhgm4/LfW34ZxWPZs1sZ4ly VYi+0Zew2lGeZ3WYBmtosBLAT0GuD7tSLgbFs= Received: by 10.142.240.9 with SMTP id n9mr836128wfh.217.1227374351381; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:19:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811220919w36943845i649fd1002f1f790a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 09:19:11 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8518a2c7ac52d894 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBhZ3JlZS4gSSBkb24ndCBzZWUgYW55IHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgbmVlZCB0byBkbyBlaXRoZXIgb2Yg dGhlc2UuCgpBcyBmYXIgYXMgdGhlIG9yZGVyaW5nLCBhbnlvbmUgY2FuIHB1bGwgZG93biB0aGUg ZGF0YSBmaWxlIGFuZCByZW9yZGVyCnRvIHRoZWlyIGhlYXJ0J3MgY29udGVudC4KQW5kIEkgYWdy ZWUgd2l0aCB5b3Ugb24gU3VwcHJlc3MtU2NyaXB0LgoKTWFyawoKCgpPbiBGcmksIE5vdiAyMSwg MjAwOCBhdCAyMDoyMywgRG91ZyBFd2VsbCA8ZG91Z0Bld2VsbGljLm9yZz4gd3JvdGU6Cj4gS2Vu dCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90ZToK Pgo+PiAxKSBUaGUgImxhbmd1YWdlIiBlbnRyaWVzIGFyZSBncm91cGVkIGJ5ICJ0d28tbGV0dGVy IGNvZGVzIiBhbmQKPj4gICJ0aHJlZS1sZXR0ZXIgY29kZXMiLCB3aGljaCBJIGRvbid0IGZpbmQg dmVyeSBoZWxwZnVsLiBJIHdvdWxkCj4+ICBmaW5kIGl0IGJldHRlciB0byBncm91cCBieSAiU2Nv cGUiIGluc3RlYWQuCj4KPiBZb3UgbWVhbiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBzZWUgYWxsIHRoZSBsYW5ndWFn 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NAo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNo YXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCj4KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4gTHRydUBpZXRm Lm9yZwo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo+Cl9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9s dHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 22 10:54:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C7A93A6A9E; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:54:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2193A6978 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:54:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YClu5I3KTwy1 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:54:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AB293A6A9E for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 20686 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2008 18:54:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth12.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.35) with ESMTP; 22 Nov 2008 18:54:31 -0000 Message-ID: <076224713E9A4D3482A8CBAA86566AD1@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 11:54:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Cc: Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4+IFN1cHByZXNzLVNjcmlwdCBpcyBhbiBpbmZvcm1hdGl2ZSBmaWVsZCAobGlrZSBTY29w ZSksIG1lYW50IHRvIAo+PiBlbmNvdXJhZ2UgdGFnIHByb2R1Y2VycyB0byBvbWl0IHNjcmlwdCBz dWJ0YWdzIGRlZW1lZCBvbiBhIG9uZS1ieS1vbmUgCj4+IGJhc2lzIHRvIGJlIHVubmVjZXNzYXJ5 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dG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3Vh Z2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18K THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 22 10:59:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7BC3A698F; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:59:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D91D3A698F for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:59:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DymJZ+ysi3Mq for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D47B3A6978 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 10:59:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:32970 helo=[192.168.1.4]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L3xh3-0005C0-85; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:58:57 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:58:56 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclM1F6PAhlaB2eZUEq+Z51+hnyk7Q== In-Reply-To: <076224713E9A4D3482A8CBAA86566AD1@DGBP7M81> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L3xh3-0005C0-85. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1L3xh3-0005C0-85 ca7110f276dac613559f8ec3691a4dd0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-11-22 19.54, skrev "Doug Ewell" : > Kent Karlsson wrote: > = >>> Suppress-Script is an informative field (like Scope), meant to >>> encourage tag producers to omit script subtags deemed on a one-by-one >>> basis to be unnecessary, and to provide a hint to tag consumers >>> trying to match a tag that has a script with one that does not. >>> There are lots and lots of inconsistencies in the way >>> Suppress-Scripts have been doled out, and there always will be, >>> because there will never be agreement about how to implement it. >> = >> That may be. But the two I mentioned stand out as particularly >> inappropriate. > = > Just to make sure I understand correctly, your proposal is to remove the > Suppress-Script fields from 'cpe' and 'son', not to add one to 'dje', > correct? Correct. /kent k > This will also need to go to ietf-languages, of course. > = > -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://www.ewellic.org > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =96 > = _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 22 16:10:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D3F3A68BA; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:10:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65E7A3A6938 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:10:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q7z8lhFW9kuL for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2B1A3A68BA for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:10:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33435 helo=[192.168.1.4]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L42Yn-0003vP-3z; Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:10:45 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:10:34 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclM1F6PAhlaB2eZUEq+Z51+hnyk7QAK4jje In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L42Yn-0003vP-3z. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L42Yn-0003vP-3z 0e9939db4f46248c032555ae2d2ada26 Cc: "ISO639-3@sil.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org What is the supposed difference between hab I L hab Hanoi Sign Language and hos I L hos Ho Chi Minh City Sign Language ? (The city names are just two different names for the same city.) /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 22 16:35:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E867C3A6938; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:35:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 300883A6859 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:35:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y9qikg4sjXbS for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:35:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4263A6AF9 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:35:50 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=sl7AkSgw/5gF5uGyv0N+wB/tIxBQK1V+FjTuu/4+7lAyJGoEHrmeaSawgj/PH8Ah; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.164.80.68] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L42x2-0000Bz-15; Sat, 22 Nov 2008 19:35:48 -0500 Message-ID: <001301c94d03$91edef20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2008 16:36:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e47db5966d35b0deffe19728a9069fc2d2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.164.80.68 Cc: ISO639-3@sil.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Kent Karlsson" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:10 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments > > What is the supposed difference between > hab I L hab Hanoi Sign Language > and > hos I L hos Ho Chi Minh City Sign Language > ? (The city names are just two different names for the same city.) No, they're not. Ho Chi Minh City (covering the area formerly known as Sai Gon as well as Cho Lon) is in southern Viet Nam. Ha Noi (the nation's capitol) is in the north. The spoken language is noticeably different (far more so than, for example, differences between major regional dialects of English, IMO), and there are cultural differences as well, so a difference in sign languages wouldn't surprise me. Randy. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 23 01:31:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34813A69AB; Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17A443A69AB for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:31:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k0vHcQxhHVEB for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:31:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342223A6877 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 2008 01:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:32844 helo=[192.168.1.4]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L4BJ4-0001Lq-5f; Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:31:13 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:31:02 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclNTjNJfXLQ0YfqlUmArk71CF3KTQ== In-Reply-To: <001301c94d03$91edef20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L4BJ4-0001Lq-5f. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L4BJ4-0001Lq-5f c8ce87fcc5c8d5d9790c094dd980644e Cc: ISO639-3@sil.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Oops. Sorry. /k Den 2008-11-23 01.36, skrev "Randy Presuhn" : > Hi - > >> From: "Kent Karlsson" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: >> Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2008 4:10 PM >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call comments >> >> What is the supposed difference between >> hab I L hab Hanoi Sign Language >> and >> hos I L hos Ho Chi Minh City Sign Language >> ? (The city names are just two different names for the same city.) > > No, they're not. Ho Chi Minh City (covering the area formerly known > as Sai Gon as well as Cho Lon) is in southern Viet Nam. Ha Noi > (the nation's capitol) is in the north. The spoken language is noticeably > different (far more so than, for example, differences between major > regional dialects of English, IMO), and there are cultural differences as > well, > so a difference in sign languages wouldn't surprise me. > > Randy. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 27 11:06:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951363A69E5; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:06:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6ECF3A6A0B for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:54:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uEBMbEG-1rVe for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1b.orange.fr (smtp1b.orange.fr [193.252.23.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DC2D3A69E5 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 10:54:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1b01.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 78651700007D; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:54:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf1b07 (wwinf1b07 [10.232.19.50]) by mwinf1b01.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 63B60700006B; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:54:41 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20081127185441408.63B60700006B@mwinf1b01.orange.fr From: verdy_p To: Doug Ewell Message-ID: <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> In-Reply-To: <435BDA23067F4DC0B10F8CD53EE62EEF@DGBP7M81> References: <22656012.33602.1227726579595.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b04> <435BDA23067F4DC0B10F8CD53EE62EEF@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [79.82.50.184] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~| X-WUM-CC: |~||~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 19:54:41 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:06:18 -0800 Cc: CLDR Users , LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: verdy_p List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org "Doug Ewell" wrote: > Warning: this is completely OT for the Unicode list. Future discussion > should be on the LTRU list (ltru@ietf.org) or CLDR list > (cldr-users@unicode.org) as appropriate. You have just replied to the Unicode list yourself (despite I was replaying to you using a CC to the CLDR list...) > "verdy underscore p" wrote: > > > If only we could have some access to ISO 639-5 data (for managing the > > language families instead of using the historic and bdly designed > > language collections of ISO 639-1 (code [bi] only) and ISO 639-2... > > I wish the ISO 639-5 Registration Authority, which is the same as that > for ISO 639-2 (Library of Congress), would set up an official 639-5 Web > site. It has been a long time coming. Well, still waiting (sorry, my interest for the subject is mostly personal, although I could have use of it professionnally, but I can't pay myself for getting a copy of the published paper; it's too expensive for me). > I don't agree with characterizing 639-1 and 639-2 as "badly designed." > They were designed for different purposes. Apparently not. Your description just indicates that 639-5 is effectively continuing the 639-2 (and 639-1 for bihari) model, and does not create what was expected (a comprehensive hierarchy similar to the Ethnologue); in addition, the 639-5 is now incompatible with 639-2 and 639-1, making it mostly unusable within the RFC 4645/4646 bis framework). For me, this means that 639-5 is already a dead standard before its publication, unless the 639-2 and 639-1 collections are completely removed, due to the changes that occured in 639-5. > > Also I'm still waiting to see how ISO 639-5 can be integrated with the > > RFC 4545bis and RFC 4646bis rules. > > This is clearly laid out in the two LTRU drafts: > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt > http://www.ewellic.org/rfc4645bis.html There's absolutely no integration. Or more exactly, it does not create the encoding framework that would allow the efective creation of a comprehensive hierarchy of language families. It just says that they are just added as possible subtags, usable as prefixes, but immediately, the included list of tags make these combinations of a collection subtag plus a language subtag accepted as non prefered aliases for the prefered tag consisting in the language tag only (this is fine for me, as it effectively initiates the organization as a hierarchy; however, the list is not complete enough to organize the 639-3 list of macrolanguages and individual languages) Also I don't understand the need to create a prefix subtag for the special language scopes of 639-3 (except as a categorization in a more compelte hierarchy). Well, this is not critical and does not affect my own projects with them. > In brief, 639-5 code elements are simply added as more language subtags > that represent language collections, just like existing subtags such as > 'alg'. This is very straightforward. If you say so... For me, this absolutely does not change what was already in use, or attempted, without 639-5. The 639-5 part solves absolutely no additional problem, but just creates more confusion (due to its incompatibilities with 639-1/2). I would have really hoped that those unstable collections of 639-1/2 were deprecated (grandfathered with no indication of a prefered new code, due to the ambiguities, just like what has been done for "cel-gaulish" in RFC 4645bis), and that new codes were assigned to the codes that were changed to be inclusive and built according to serious definitions (e.g., the exclusive [ine] collection of 639-2 would have been grandfathered, and a new code added in 639-5 for the inclusive Indo-european family). > You can check out the proposed replacement Language Subtag Registry, > embedded in draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt, to see how this works. > I don't see how one can be pro-639-5 and anti-639-2. 639-2 includes a > modest number of collection codes among its repertoire. 639-5 comprises > a more comprehensive list of collections, but for some reason omits two > of the collections included in 639-2 (Bihari and Himachali), and > incorrectly lists 'car' as a collection called "Carib languages" when > other parts of 639 had already classified this as an individual > language, "Galibi Carib." You forget that I had hoped for 639-5 to be made interoperable with 639-1/2 and so with the RFC 4645/4646 framework. For me it has completely failed to this, and I can predict that the integration of 639-5 in RFC 4645/4646 will fail. > Except for these few inconsistencies, 639-2 is simply a subset of "639-3 > plus 639-5." You can't simultaneously "integrate ISO 639-5" and "drop > ISO 639-2 collections." Yes you can ! In fact you can't integrate both 639-2 and 639-5 simultaneously (in RFC 4645/4646bis), unless the RFC 4645/4646bis paper is updated (once again) to resolve the conflicts and inconsistencies that the early, semi-confidential and constly publication of 639-5 has created ! Thanks, 639-5 is not published freely, so it is still mostly ignored by everyone. But I hope that 639-5 will be rapidly corrected to solve what I consider as severe bugs (or lack of analysis and decisions about its policies, stability and compatibility with the rest of the 639 standard). (and I can understand now why The Ethnologue has chosen to NOT use or display the 639-5 "collection" codes for its language families !) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 27 11:20:41 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA75C3A6A1F; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:20:41 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E503A6A1F for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:20:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D5LnFn42Uuqk for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:20:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D700A3A69E5 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:20:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WvxGmssJO1vtNRc+JZ4uBkd5Lb0QGQh9rQ91VoxA6zlDrK+IHqqqsR9H6tdgYVhH; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.223] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L5mPj-0001Dd-Pr for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 14:20:36 -0500 Message-ID: <001401c950c5$60a3d9a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <22656012.33602.1227726579595.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b04><435BDA23067F4DC0B10F8CD53EE62EEF@DGBP7M81> <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:21:40 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e472db69bf85754ab5d771648f062f8dc6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.223 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "verdy_p" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "CLDR Users" ; "LTRU list" > Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 10:54 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) ... > > > Also I'm still waiting to see how ISO 639-5 can be integrated with the > > > RFC 4545bis and RFC 4646bis rules. > > > > This is clearly laid out in the two LTRU drafts: > > > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18.txt > > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-07.txt > > http://www.ewellic.org/rfc4645bis.html > > There's absolutely no integration. Or more exactly, it does not create the encoding framework that would allow the > efective creation of a comprehensive hierarchy of language families. As co-chair: That's outside the scope of the ltru working group charter. As a technical contributor: Anyone who's seriously worked in linguistics will recognize that creating a "heirarchy of language families" would be open to endless debate. The discussion of how to handle Erzgebirgisch on the ietf-languages@iana.org list shows how difficult this can be even for what one might think would be an easy case. I'm very glad it's out of our scope. ... > I would have really hoped that those unstable collections of 639-1/2 were deprecated (grandfathered with no > indication of a prefered new code, due to the ambiguities, just like what has been done for "cel-gaulish" in RFC > 4645bis), and that new codes were assigned to the codes that were changed to be inclusive and built according to > serious definitions (e.g., the exclusive [ine] collection of 639-2 would have been grandfathered, and a new code > added in 639-5 for the inclusive Indo-european family). ... As co-chair: Generating substantial updates to 639-5 would have gone well beyond the scope of the ltru working group. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 27 11:47:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8F1C3A693F; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADB83A6916 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.683 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.683 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oTFpVsQfE33z for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CB643A677D for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 11:47:00 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18282 invoked from network); 27 Nov 2008 19:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 27 Nov 2008 19:46:56 -0000 Message-ID: <740601AC75DE49D7829609FBFC25D2C5@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <22656012.33602.1227726579595.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b04> <435BDA23067F4DC0B10F8CD53EE62EEF@DGBP7M81> <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:46:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: 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b3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwK aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMg IMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1 IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Nov 27 12:06:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30333A693F; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:06:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677C13A693F for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:06:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O1IgcCWtLYzb for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4783A68E5 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 12:06:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:32794 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L5n87-00009N-9c; Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:06:28 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2008 21:06:21 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: verdy_p Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclQy52iI4AfmhLZfEauTV+LLetQMQ== In-Reply-To: <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L5n87-00009N-9c. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1L5n87-00009N-9c 0dd46d4d5ed457315735401689f81f14 Cc: LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-11-27 19.54, skrev "verdy_p" : > Apparently not. Your description just indicates that 639-5 is effectively > continuing the 639-2 (and 639-1 for > bihari) model, and does not create what was expected (a comprehensive > hierarchy similar to the Ethnologue); in I'm not sure exactly who expected that (beside yourself). > addition, the 639-5 is now incompatible with 639-2 and 639-1, making it mostly -2 apparently keeps the "(other)" interpretation, while -5 does not. LTRU has adopted the -5 interpretation (inclusive), otherwise the collection codes would stand for nothing. > unusable within the RFC 4645/4646 The use of collection codes in language tags is dubious, like saying "it's language group so-and-so, but information about individual language is not available". [...] > There's absolutely no integration. Or more exactly, it does not create the > encoding framework that would allow the > efective creation of a comprehensive hierarchy of language families. As Randy said, out of scope for LTRU. > It just says that they are just added as possible subtags, usable as prefixes, > but immediately, the included list > of tags make these combinations of a collection subtag plus a language subtag This is for some of the so-called macrolanguage codes. While macrolanguage codes are (informally) like collection codes, they are "special" collections (in a particular way), and they are not formally collection codes. > accepted as non prefered aliases for > the prefered tag consisting in the language tag only (this is fine for me, as > it effectively initiates the > organization as a hierarchy; however, the list is not complete enough to > organize the 639-3 list of macrolanguages > and individual languages) ISO 639-3 has a mapping of macrolanguage codes to individual languages. Some of which was picked up by LTRU, as part of a rather hard-to-achieve compromise. > Also I don't understand the need to create a prefix subtag for the special > language scopes of 639-3 (except as a > categorization in a more compelte hierarchy). Well, this is not critical and LTRU group compromise. There is/was no intention to develop a more complete hierarchy in the LTRU work (which should be close to being finished). It was out of scope (and as Randy said, appropriately so). /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 09:38:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A4173A6848; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:38:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C80153A6848 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:38:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 06oKgAzLaZDO for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B2D63A67AB for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:34129 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L67Hw-0002Du-8n; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:38:03 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 18:37:49 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: verdy_p , Doug Ewell Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclRgAgUt0oQ92s1a0i8XrgFzlHpSA== In-Reply-To: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L67Hw-0002Du-8n. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1L67Hw-0002Du-8n e750d8270b76b59056ddde92d020761d Cc: CLDR Users , LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-11-28 17.29, skrev "verdy_p" : > there ARE combinations of a collection code and a > language code, they are listed ONLY for the collection code [sgn] (Sign > languages), within the proposed registry as Yes, sgn was included in that LTRU compromise. Still not sure why it was. > full "Tag:" elements, rather than just "Subtag-Type:" elements. No, it goes via the "Type: extlang" and "Prefix: sgn" mechanisms. > And I was NOT speaking about the case of macrolanguages (that are already > correctly handled in ISO 639-3, and well > integrated in RFC 4645bis, except a few diferences that should be corrected to > match what ISO 639-3 indicates, but No, the compromise does not handle all macrolanguages the same. Only some were selected as extlang prefixes. > anyway, the RFC 4647 alerady contains the statements needed to avoid or > correct these small discrepencies). [...] > I remain convinced that the unexpected change of scope for most collections of > ISO 639-1/2 (where their exclusive > scope was also very fuzzy, undetermined across versions of ISO 639-1/2 that > constantly reduced their scope) when > converted to ISO 639-5 is a defect. And that for the future, a comprehensive > list containing only inclusive > families coded distinctly from the old exclusive codes would have been better: I have no involvement in ISO 639, except for the occasional (external) comment. But let me hold up my finger in the air to feel the wind... Hmm, that change isn't going to happen... > It would have allowed then, later, to "Deprecate:" the old exclusive > collection "Tag:"'s or "Subtag:"'s, but > WITHOUT defining for them a "Preferred-Value:" because they would not be > equivalent in scope. See above and my previous email on the topic. > Consider for example the case of "Tag: zh-Hant" in RFC 4645bis, which is now > "Deprecated:" with a date given, but No, it's not. It's "Type: redundant", which means that it is now covered by the generative mechanism of RFC 4646 (and RFC 4646bis), but was once registered as a full tag (pre-RFC4646). [...] > And so, I would have kept the tag [ine] ("Other Indo-European languages") > exclusive (as it is today), but just > marked it as "Deprecated:" for use in RFC 4645-4647 applications, and asked to > the ISO 639-5 working group to > allocate a separate inclusive code for "Indo-European (family)". With this > scheme, we would have kept a full > compatibility with ISO 639-1/2, and no need to choose arbitrarily (and > inconsistently) between ISO 639-1/2 and ISO > 639-5 interpretation of the SAME language codes. The use of collection codes for language tagging remains dubious, IMO. > Under this scheme, there would have been less problems in the CLDR collections > (that were updated inconsistently > just in the middle of the last edit session during last spring, at a time > where ISO 639-5 was even still not > released at all, and too late for getting enough votes and apply the changes > consistently in the localized names). > Because of this incompatiblity between ISO 639-1/2 and ISO 639-5, now the > current release of CLDR is completely > inconsistent for the names of language collections ! CLDR issue, not LTRU. [...] > If it's now too late to ask for a separate code allocation in ISO 639-5 for > inclusive families, the other solution > would be that could be done now is to rename also the ISO 639-1/2 families, to > match with the inclusive > interpretation of ISO 639-5 (but get prepared to receive flaming messages for > those existing systems compliant to > ISO 639-1/2 that still wanted an exclusive interpretation, but that the ISO > 639 working group would suddenly make > non-compliant: they will have to convert the generic exclusive codes into > precise ISO 639-3 individual language > codes, something that may be quite costly, too long to perform for them, > impossible to do automatically and > requiring lots of human hours of work for relabelling their contents and > databases). And I doubt that the ISO 639 > technical comity will accept such changes (ISO 639-1/2 should remain frozen > and stable, as it is now). ISO 639 issue, not LTRU. > Philippe. > ---- > NB : For your information I have just built yesterday (temporarily: if it's > not acceptable there, I can remove it) > a easily navigatable and sortable version of the proposed registry that is > part of RFC 4645bis Draft 07 on > , on a site that (Well, note that RFC 4645 had no macrolanguage concept, nor covered the new codes in ISO 639-3. RFC 4645bis is what you should refer to.) /kent k > currently needs a comprehensive list of > language families to allow searches of words across "similar" languages, and > an easy way to search for language > synonyms (or dialect names) localized in other languages than just English. > I've correctly stated that this version > is a draft with a publication date and the validity date, and a direct > reference to the draft text currently > published by the IETF. > > > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 09:47:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376653A682B; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:47:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 421393A676A for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:29:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.784 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.784 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.465, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vJPytpgPIcLQ for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:29:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1b.orange.fr (smtp1b.orange.fr [193.252.23.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD81B3A67A7 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 08:29:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1b01.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 38B7D7000079; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:29:11 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf1b05 (wwinf1b05 [10.232.19.32]) by mwinf1b01.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 22DBF700008D; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:29:11 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20081128162911142.22DBF700008D@mwinf1b01.orange.fr From: verdy_p To: Kent Karlsson , Doug Ewell Message-ID: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> In-Reply-To: References: <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [79.82.50.184] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~||~| X-WUM-CC: |~||~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 17:29:11 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 09:47:30 -0800 Cc: CLDR Users , LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: verdy_p List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org "Kent Karlsson" wrote: > > It just says that they are just added as possible subtags, usable as prefixes, > > but immediately, the included list > > of tags make these combinations of a collection subtag plus a language subtag > > This is for some of the so-called macrolanguage codes. While macrolanguage > codes are (informally) like collection codes, they are "special" collections > (in a particular way), and they are not formally collection codes. I must have read the current RFC4645bis draft better than you: there ARE combinations of a collection code and a language code, they are listed ONLY for the collection code [sgn] (Sign languages), within the proposed registry as full "Tag:" elements, rather than just "Subtag-Type:" elements. And I was NOT speaking about the case of macrolanguages (that are already correctly handled in ISO 639-3, and well integrated in RFC 4645bis, except a few diferences that should be corrected to match what ISO 639-3 indicates, but anyway, the RFC 4647 alerady contains the statements needed to avoid or correct these small discrepencies). Note: my message was not supposed to be out-of-topic: I posted it to the LTRU list under indication given by Doug Ewell, the signing author of the drafts for RFC 4645bis and 4646bis (initially it was a post on the Unicode list (than Doug Ewell suggested me to forward it to the Unicode CLDR list as well), and this explains the "[OT]" label that remained, and the title of this thread (related to the "CDLR Survey Tool" and its list speaking about its current use of RFC 4645-4647 series). I remain convinced that the unexpected change of scope for most collections of ISO 639-1/2 (where their exclusive scope was also very fuzzy, undetermined across versions of ISO 639-1/2 that constantly reduced their scope) when converted to ISO 639-5 is a defect. And that for the future, a comprehensive list containing only inclusive families coded distinctly from the old exclusive codes would have been better: It would have allowed then, later, to "Deprecate:" the old exclusive collection "Tag:"'s or "Subtag:"'s, but WITHOUT defining for them a "Preferred-Value:" because they would not be equivalent in scope. Consider for example the case of "Tag: zh-Hant" in RFC 4645bis, which is now "Deprecated:" with a date given, but also has NO "Preferred-Value:" field defined exactly because the conversion to other preferred tags is ambiguous (instead the "Comments:" field may reference the possible candidate "Tag:" values. This concerns of course a macrolanguage, but I don't see why the same (good for me) rationale should not be kept for collections as well. And so, I would have kept the tag [ine] ("Other Indo-European languages") exclusive (as it is today), but just marked it as "Deprecated:" for use in RFC 4645-4647 applications, and asked to the ISO 639-5 working group to allocate a separate inclusive code for "Indo-European (family)". With this scheme, we would have kept a full compatibility with ISO 639-1/2, and no need to choose arbitrarily (and inconsistently) between ISO 639-1/2 and ISO 639-5 interpretation of the SAME language codes. Under this scheme, there would have been less problems in the CLDR collections (that were updated inconsistently just in the middle of the last edit session during last spring, at a time where ISO 639-5 was even still not released at all, and too late for getting enough votes and apply the changes consistently in the localized names). Because of this incompatiblity between ISO 639-1/2 and ISO 639-5, now the current release of CLDR is completely inconsistent for the names of language collections ! And I fear that other systems that used the ISO 639-1/2 collection codes have the same problems now, unless they have completely deprecated themselves all the old exclusive interpretation (and names suggested by ISO 639-1/2) of language families. If it's now too late to ask for a separate code allocation in ISO 639-5 for inclusive families, the other solution would be that could be done now is to rename also the ISO 639-1/2 families, to match with the inclusive interpretation of ISO 639-5 (but get prepared to receive flaming messages for those existing systems compliant to ISO 639-1/2 that still wanted an exclusive interpretation, but that the ISO 639 working group would suddenly make non-compliant: they will have to convert the generic exclusive codes into precise ISO 639-3 individual language codes, something that may be quite costly, too long to perform for them, impossible to do automatically and requiring lots of human hours of work for relabelling their contents and databases). And I doubt that the ISO 639 technical comity will accept such changes (ISO 639-1/2 should remain frozen and stable, as it is now). Philippe. ---- NB : For your information I have just built yesterday (temporarily: if it's not acceptable there, I can remove it) a easily navigatable and sortable version of the proposed registry that is part of RFC 4645bis Draft 07 on , on a site that currently needs a comprehensive list of language families to allow searches of words across "similar" languages, and an easy way to search for language synonyms (or dialect names) localized in other languages than just English. I've correctly stated that this version is a draft with a publication date and the validity date, and a direct reference to the draft text currently published by the IETF. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 10:39:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0852F3A690F; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:39:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890223A690F for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:39:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3d8hN5ZKLyOs for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C79453A67A7 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=KjVtVy2SM6P73QOzjWC0kyX4lObG/cIprYBTU2N2T3YMA0dKbnFT1uBj98NFRznd; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.150] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L68FT-0005L7-L1 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 13:39:27 -0500 Message-ID: <001801c95188$ce312860$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU list" References: <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:40:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e49b8e879f6a8a57258ecc968efeafff87350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.150 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair - I find very little in this thread germane to the ltru working group. If you have *specific* technical objections to the current drafts (which have completed WG last call - we're just waiting for the updates to appear so we can hand them off to the IESG) then please provide replacement text which would address those issues. Unless those issue are "show stoppers" (so far it sounds like they are not) we will probably not take any action on them. Of course, you would be free to submit them as IETF last call comments when we reach that stage. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 11:03:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93F883A683D; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:03:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871E23A6939 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:53:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.939 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.939 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.310, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 77A2YlNBNPo8 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1b.orange.fr (smtp1b.orange.fr [193.252.23.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4743A690F for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 10:53:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1b03.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 4669070000EA; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:53:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf1b12 (wwinf1b12 [10.232.19.55]) by mwinf1b03.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id 3A8E270000B1; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:53:38 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20081128185338239.3A8E270000B1@mwinf1b03.orange.fr From: verdy_p To: Kent Karlsson , Doug Ewell Message-ID: <6683159.56974.1227898418200.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b12> In-Reply-To: References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [79.82.50.184] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~||~| X-WUM-CC: |~||~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:53:38 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:03:02 -0800 Cc: CLDR Users , LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: verdy_p List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org "Kent Karlsson" > > NB : For your information I have just built yesterday (temporarily: if it's > > not acceptable there, I can remove it) > > a easily navigatable and sortable version of the proposed registry that is > > part of RFC 4645bis Draft 07 on > > , on a site that > > (Well, note that RFC 4645 had no macrolanguage concept, nor covered the new > codes in ISO 639-3. RFC 4645bis is what you should refer to.) That's what I'm refering to throughout these pages (however I did not give it the article title name "RFC 4645bis", thinking that this is not the definitive name for this draft RFC revision) that indicate "bis" explicitly (well I should correct the link that MediaWiki autogenerates in the middle of the name "RFC 4645bis", leaving "bis" separated in the rendered page, by disabling this automatically generated link that still points to the wrong version.) > > currently needs a comprehensive list of > > language families to allow searches of words across "similar" languages, and > > an easy way to search for language > > synonyms (or dialect names) localized in other languages than just English. > > I've correctly stated that this version > > is a draft with a publication date and the validity date, and a direct > > reference to the draft text currently > > published by the IETF. My purpose is just to make the registry more easily searchable and readable (I've not attepted to translate the "Description" fields, and not even the "Comments" field, I've just translated to French the headers, only because it is on the French Wiktionary), there are other pages for this that are better tuned for information in French, including documenting and linking languages names in Fernch with their definitions and alternative orthographies for which references could be found) : they are just there to point to some URL that can be stable. It's a presentation that could also be helpful for your HTML version of the draft. For now the "bis" version is not fully released, so I don't think the page name should adopt the "bis" name, unless it has been said that this will be the final name. If the name changes, I don't want to redirect it again. Will the "bis" be kept after release, or won't that be the same RFC number (pointing directly to the revized text), or another RFC number ? Philippe. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 11:10:36 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C06E3A67C1; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:10:36 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6EAC3A67A4 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:10:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IWhZRkopYWZG for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B6D4D3A68FD for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 11:10:34 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 5460 invoked from network); 28 Nov 2008 19:10:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.44) with ESMTP; 28 Nov 2008 19:10:30 -0000 Message-ID: <8EDDC6D8DE84428BB09C1675E695C40C@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "verdy_p" , "Kent Karlsson" References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> <6683159.56974.1227898418200.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b12> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:10:28 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Cc: CLDR Users , LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SnVzdCBhIHF1aWNrIGNvbW1lbnQgb24gb25lIHBvaW50OyBJJ2xsIGhhdmUgdG8gc3BlbmQgc29t ZSB0aW1lIHJlYWRpbmcgCnRocm91Z2ggYWxsIHRoZSBvdGhlcnMuCgoidmVyZHkgdW5kZXJzY29y ZSBwIiA8dmVyZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwIGF0IHdhbmFkb28gZG90IGZyPiB3cm90ZToKCj4gRm9y IG5vdyB0aGUgImJpcyIgdmVyc2lvbiBpcyBub3QgZnVsbHkgcmVsZWFzZWQsIHNvIEkgZG9uJ3Qg dGhpbmsgdGhlIAo+IHBhZ2UgbmFtZSBzaG91bGQgYWRvcHQgdGhlICJiaXMiIG5hbWUsIHVubGVz cyBpdCBoYXMgYmVlbiBzYWlkIHRoYXQgCj4gdGhpcyB3aWxsIGJlIHRoZSBmaW5hbCBuYW1lLiBJ ZiB0aGUgbmFtZSBjaGFuZ2VzLCBJIGRvbid0IHdhbnQgdG8gCj4gcmVkaXJlY3QgaXQgYWdhaW4u Cj4KPiBXaWxsIHRoZSAiYmlzIiBiZSBrZXB0IGFmdGVyIHJlbGVhc2UsIG9yIHdvbid0IHRoYXQg YmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgUkZDIAo+IG51bWJlciAocG9pbnRpbmcgZGlyZWN0bHkgdG8gdGhlIHJldml6 ZWQgdGV4dCksIG9yIGFub3RoZXIgUkZDIG51bWJlciAKPiA/CgpSRkNzIGFyZSBuZXZlciAidXBk YXRlZCIgd2l0aCB0aGUgc2FtZSBudW1iZXI7IHRoZXkgYXJlIHN1cGVyc2VkZWQgb3IgCnJlcGxh Y2VkIGJ5IGEgbmV3IFJGQyB3aXRoIGEgZGlmZmVyZW50IG51bWJlci4gIFRoZSBpcyB1bmxpa2Ug SVNPIGFuZCAKb3RoZXIgc3RhbmRhcmRzLCB3aGljaCBub3JtYWxseSBrZWVwIHRoZSBzYW1lIG51 bWJlciB0aHJvdWdoIHJldmlzaW9ucy4KCiJSRkMgNDY0NWJpcyIgbWVhbnMgcm91Z2hseSAidGhl IEludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0IHRoYXQgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgdG8gCnN1cGVyc2VkZSBvciByZXBsYWNl IFJGQyA0NjQ1YmlzLiIgIElmIGFuZCB3aGVuIGl0IGlzIGFwcHJvdmVkIGFzIGFuIApSRkMsIGl0 IHdpbGwgYmUgYXNzaWduZWQgYSBuZXcgbnVtYmVyLCBrbm93biBvbmx5IHRvIHRoZSBSRkMgRWRp dG9yIAp1bnRpbCB0aGUgbW9tZW50IG9mIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uLgoKU28gYW55IHBhZ2UgdGhhdCBk ZXNjcmliZXMgUkZDIDQ2NDViaXMsIG9yIHJlZm9ybWF0cyBpdHMgY29udGVudCBpbiBhIApkaWZm ZXJlbnQgd2F5LCBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIGxhYmVsZWQgIlJGQyA0NjQ1LiIgIEFzIHlvdSB3aWxs IHNlZSBieSAKcmVhZGluZyBSRkMgNDY0NSwgdGhhdCBpcyBhIGNvbXBsZXRlbHkgZGlmZmVyZW50 IGRvY3VtZW50LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICog IFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEu aWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVz dHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0 cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 12:08:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C9E3A6991; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:08:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79FA23A6991 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 12:08:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: 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Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEkgZmluZCB2ZXJ5IGxpdHRsZSBpbiB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCBnZXJtYW5l IHRvIHRoZSBsdHJ1IHdvcmtpbmcgZ3JvdXAuCgpUaGF0J3MgcmlnaHQsIHdlIG5lZWQgdG8gbGVh dmUgdGhlIGxpc3Qgb3BlbiBmb3IgYWxsIHRoZSBvbi10b3BpYyAKZGlzY3Vzc2lvbnMgdGhhdCBo YXZlIGJlZW4gZ29pbmcgb24gbGF0ZWx5PwoKUGhpbGlwcGUgYXNzZXJ0ZWQgc29tZSB0aGluZ3Mg 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ESMTP id C02087000097; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:31:19 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf1b02 (wwinf1b02 [10.232.19.29]) by mwinf1b02.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id A77BF7000094; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:31:19 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20081128213119686.A77BF7000094@mwinf1b02.orange.fr From: verdy_p To: Kent Karlsson , Doug Ewell Message-ID: <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> In-Reply-To: References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [79.82.50.184] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~||~| X-WUM-CC: |~||~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:31:19 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:38:05 -0800 Cc: CLDR Users , LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: verdy_p List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org PiBEZSA6ICJLZW50IEthcmxzc29uIiA8a2VudC5rYXJsc3NvbjE0QGNvbWhlbS5zZT4KPiBBIDog InZlcmR5X3AiIDx2ZXJkeV9wQHdhbmFkb28uZnI+LCAiRG91ZyBFd2VsbCIgPGRvdWdAZXdlbGxp Yy5vcmc+Cj4gQ29waWUgw6AgOiAiTFRSVSBsaXN0IiA8bHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZz4sICJDTERSIFVz ZXJzIiA8Y2xkci11c2Vyc0B1bmljb2RlLm9yZz4KPiBPYmpldCA6IFJlOiBbTHRydV0gW0NMRFJd IFJlOiBTdXBwb3J0IG9mIElTTyA2MzkgKHdhczogU3VydmV5IFRvb2wgcHJlLWFscGhhKQo+IAo+ IAo+IAo+IERlbiAyMDA4LTExLTI4IDE3LjI5LCBza3JldiAidmVyZHlfcCIgPHZlcmR5X3BAd2Fu YWRvby5mcj46Cj4gCj4gPiB0aGVyZSBBUkUgY29tYmluYXRpb25zIG9mIGEgY29sbGVjdGlvbiBj b2RlIGFuZCBhCj4gPiBsYW5ndWFnZSBjb2RlLCB0aGV5IGFyZSBsaXN0ZWQgT05MWSBmb3IgdGhl IGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZSBbc2duXSAoU2lnbgo+ID4gbGFuZ3VhZ2VzKSwgd2l0aGluIHRoZSBw cm9wb3NlZCByZWdpc3RyeSBhcwo+IAo+IFllcywgc2duIHdhcyBpbmNsdWRlZCBpbiB0aGF0IExU 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ZmZlcmVkLCBhbmQgdGhhdCBJU08gNjM5LTYgZm9yIGRpYWxlY3RhbC9vcnRob2dyYXBoaWMgdmFy aWV0aWVzIHdpbGwgCm5vdCBhZGRyZXNzIGF0IGFsbCkuCgpQaGlsaXBwZS4KCgpfX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApM dHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 19:42:45 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AAA128C18B; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:42:45 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA4F28C18B for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:42:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eIunlC7pt0kl for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:42:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B855F28C18A for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:42:43 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=jnQeDJHnlOjm3YmPeTsASseXKgjbkWaKhmiTwGeSw5I3UlsC05WvRMMS6vgPvH8n; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.146.93] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L6Gj8-0002aU-DA for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:42:38 -0500 Message-ID: <005e01c951d4$b1cba640$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:43:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e46ab52841872769736a417068bf413c0a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.146.93 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: RFC 4645bis: making 'pes' and 'prs' extlangs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - A comment from elsewhere on the current drafts, forwarded without comment. Randy > From: "Michael Everson" > To: "ietflang IETF Languages Discussion" > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 5:54 PM > Subject: Fwd: RFC 4645bis: making 'pes' and 'prs' extlangs > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Roozbeh Pournader > > Date: 29 November 2008 01:04:39 GMT > > To: Mark Davis , markdavis@google.com, Addison > > Phillips , addison@inter-locale.com, Doug Ewell > > > > Cc: Michael Everson > > Subject: RFC 4645bis: making 'pes' and 'prs' extlangs > > > > Hi all, > > > > I could finally get to checking RFC 4645bis and RFC 4646bis. I was > > wondering what it would take to make "pes", and "prs" (defined in ISO > > 639-3 to be for "Western Farsi" and "Eastern Farsi/Dari") to become > > extended languages subtags of "fa" (Persian). > > > > This is of course for historical reasons too, since Dari has been > > tagged > > using "fa" or "fa-AF" all these years. (In CLDR and Computer Locale > > Requirements for Afghanistan [http://www.evertype.com/standards/af/]). > > > > Best, > > Roozbeh > > > > > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com > > _______________________________________________ > Ietf-languages mailing list > Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Nov 28 20:05:12 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 740773A6AC3; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0180228C172 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:05:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dRD7QzYKF1lL for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:05:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37333A6778 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:05:09 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=QVXJI1kIrHTd25Y8CrL/xDGCWzsPqI9bJkoNfVA3hJPCycT0OEcKgD81VPGSe2M4; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.146.93] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L6H4q-0006h0-Aq for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Nov 2008 23:05:04 -0500 Message-ID: <006901c951d7$d412f340$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU list" References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 20:06:16 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e46d6fdb447156e5bdd006620d54e92049350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.146.93 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... > From: "verdy_p" > To: "Kent Karlsson" ; "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "CLDR Users" ; "LTRU list" > Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) ... > And I've NEVER said that language collections codes should be part of locale tags. My need for a comprehensive > hierarchy is for something else: organizing long lists of languages (and their many synonyms, including those in > other languages than just English used in BCP 47). This is outside the ltru WG's scope. > The need for a language hierarchy (by families) is to simplify the search, detect name collisions in the synonyms > or between their various localizations (and this is something that the CLDR project will need to address, because > it contains many translated lists of language names), and the prefered name in a localiztion my collide with the > prefered name in another language (or dialect) translation. This is outside the ltru WG's scope. > On French Wiktionary for example, the problem was detected and has caused lots of confusion, by having list of > translations for some terms to become useless. And some of the chosen names (in French) were proven to be > ambiguous, despite they were not in ISO 639 or in BCP 47. This is outside the ltru WG's scope. > The other problem is that languages could not be found, and several codes were allocated, most often the wrong ones > or creating collisions with other language codes. This had to be fixed manually, but other things will be difficult > to correct (for example words said to be in "Apache" or "Berber", that are collections and not macrolanguages, do > not explicitly indicate the effective individual languages or even the macrolanguage in which they are written). This is outside the ltru WG's scope. If there is a need to request a new language code, collection code, macrolanguage code, etc., please take the matter to the appropriate registration authority. > When you want to fix this, the resolution is much logner than the initial creation, because it requires lenghty > verifications and disambiguating work. I think that the same problem occurs in every major library that wants to > maintain a coherent index of their collected books and publications, or with companies providing translation > services and trying to manage many large translation lists or repositories between various languages: This is not our problem. > Resolving conflicts and ambiguities is really a difficult work that could have been avoided by allowing the correct > and precise language to be selected at the first time, by the person that better knows that language (but not > necessarily its associated standard code), or that could forget or ignore that some language names they know are > perfect homonyms (and then ambiguous). This is not our problem. This is an application design issue. > Finally the various persons knowing the same language (or a dialectal/orthographic variety of that same language) > do not call it the with the same name, for cultural or political reasons (Moldavian vs. Romanian is a perfect > example, Alsatian vs. Alemanic vs. German Swiss is another example), and the need to display synonyms in addition > to the "preferred" name becomes more important. This is why multiple descriptions are permitted. If you have need of a specific addition, the ietf-language@iana.org list is the correct place to pursue the issue, not here. > For those working with Chinese (a macrolanguage encompassing many distinct individual oral languages), this is even > more important to know what text really means in an individual language and how words are effectively used and > understood (when the written and encoded orthography is not sufficient to allow the distinction); the problem with > Chinese is that many of the individual languages are known with conflicting "synonyms" (and not the same in all > languages): > > Even if it makes no difference for encoding those texts, originately encoded with synograms, it makes a huge > difference when converting such text to exhibit the phonology (including for the romanization purpose), or when > trying to select translations, or when trying to perform full text searches with consistant results. Please give a specific example of the problem that concerns you here. Several contributors on this list work with Chinese and are intimately familiar with the issues there. > A precise and correct identification of languages is then necessary, both for the readers/users of those texts, and > for their creators (but this task is too difficult to do within a very huge list of 7000 "prefered" language names > plus all their known synonyms). A comprehensive hierarchy can help narrow the search and help users become aware of > possible conflicts or ambiguities without forcing them to read thousands of names. It also really helps to select > which name to choose as the preferred one (for display in a list) to avoid future conflicts in a given translation > of such list of language names. As a technical contributor: Non-linguists are generally quite unaware of language classification hierarchies, or will look in the wrong place because their idea of the heirarchy is different from a linguist's. Two specific examples: some speakers of English think it is a Romance language based the large number of borrowings from those languages; some speakers of Vietnamese think their language is Sino-Tibetan due to the large number of borrowings from Chinese. Both are wrong. As co-chair: this issue it outside the scope of the ltru working group. > Hmmm... I'm not sure now which about which of the CLDR or LTRU list is appropriate to discuss such things, so I'll > still post this message to both lists. All of the above is related to localization in software interfaces (but > neither the BCP47, nor the CLDR repository provides a way to manage language families correctly, and both contain > just the strict minimum support needed for macrolanguages, ISO 639-3 providing more meaningful information for > them, and only The Ethnologue provides the data needed for collections but without any proposed encoding, something > that I had hoped that ISO 639-5 would have offered, and that ISO 639-6 for dialectal/orthographic varieties will > not address at all). ... As far as I can see, these concerns are outside the scope of the ltru working group. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 29 12:19:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79EBB3A690E; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:19:17 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F80A3A67B5 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:19:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xSGniBuzsaEU for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:19:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.109]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB0113A690E for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W4 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:19:10 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.88.11.82] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:19:10 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Nov 2008 20:19:10.0387 (UTC) FILETIME=[BD0CC030:01C9525F] Subject: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?_Re=3A__13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments?= =?windows-1256?q?=FE__=28through_2=2E2=2E1=3B_I_have_additional_comments_?= =?windows-1256?q?on_section_2=2C_and_on_section_4=2E6=3B_that=27s_it_so_f?= =?windows-1256?b?YXIp?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0681679411==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0681679411== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_19b45af5-6d7f-4ca6-b6e5-b9af17aff605_" --_19b45af5-6d7f-4ca6-b6e5-b9af17aff605_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! Following are my comments to date on: Draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 notesþ Section 2 Comments (will break ithis up into three emails as well, one containing strictly editorial comments, one containing strictly comments on the content (which I have little of), one containing strictly requests for clarifications.) Is it too late now to get in these very very late mostly editorial comments? (I did want to comment earlier but have not had all that much computer time; I could rent at the copy center but am sort of broke; sorry). Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com 2.1, Page 4, par 2. * * * There are different types of subtag, each of which is distinguished by length, position in the tag, and content: each subtag's type can be recognized solely by these features. This makes it possible to extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if the specific subtag values are not recognized. Thus, a language tag processor need not have a list of valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of some version of the IANA Language Subtag Registry) in order to perform common searching and matching operations. The only exceptions to this ability to infer meaning from subtag structure are the grandfathered tags listed in the productions 'regular' and 'irregular' below. These tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. {COMMENTS: 1. The above paragraph is a bit awkward, hard to read} > There are several/different types of subtags. A subtag's length and position in the language tag, as well as its content, serves to distinguish its subtag type. Thus it is possible to extract from and assign to the subtag some semantic information, even when the subtag's specific value is not recognized. Because of this, a language tag processor need not have a list of all valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of the IANA Language Subtag Registry), in order to perform common searching and matching operations on the tag. Exceptions are the 'regular' and 'irregular' grandfathered tags, listed below. Semantic information cannot be extracted from the individual subtags that compose the grandfathered language tags because these tags are only interpretable only as wholes. The order of and length of subtags that make up the 'irregular' grandfathered tags may in fact vary from the rules governing order and length of subtags specified in this document (see below). It is ther efore possible, in an irregular grandfathered language tag, to have a variant subtag composed of fewer than four characters or a subtag denoting a region preceding one denoting a language, as in, for example, "sgn-BE-fr" (which denotes Belgian French sign language, the French language as used in Belgium). The grandfathered tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. * * * * * *2.1, page 4, par. 3 The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC5234] is: {COMMENTS: 1. It is confusing to have the whole list that follows with no real introduction; what about a short definition of the syntax first?} > The language tag (referred to below as langtag) in ABNF [FRC5234] is composed of one (1) language (or macrolanguage?) subtag, followed by--in order--zero or one extended language subtag, zero or one script subtag, zero or one region subtag, sero or more variant subtags, and zero or more singletons (single character prefixes) for extension language subtags, with each singleton followed by one or more extension language subtags.The language tag may be interrupted anywhere in the tag (including initial position) by private use subtags. These are introduced by the singleton x. The singleton x indicates that all content that follows is governed by private agreement only, and that its meaning and arrangement is not covered in this document (see section 2.2.7 and 4.6 below for more information on private use subtags). Rules governing the length of the various types of subtags are specified below and in Section 2.2. As noted above, grandfathered language tags are not governed by all of the above rules of syntax (for more on grandfathered tags, see 2.2.8, below). * * ** * * 2.1, pages 4-6 {COMMENTS: 1. My main comment on the section below is that I find it very distracting and bizarre to use the asterisk [*] to indicate a variable number of letters and numbers, for example 5*8 indicates 5 to 8 letters in a variant subtag beginning with a letter;I would prefer some other symbol-- 5 - 8; or 5-8 or 5to8?? Thanks.} Language-Tag = langtag ; normal language tags / privateuse ; private use tag / grandfathered ; grandfathered tags langtag = language ["-" script] ["-" region] *("-" variant) *("-" extension) ["-" privateuse] language = 2*3ALPHA ; shortest ISO 639 code ["-" extlang] ; sometimes followed by ; extended language subtags / 4ALPHA ; or reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; or registered language subtag Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 5] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 extlang = 3ALPHA ; selected ISO 639 codes *2("-" 3ALPHA) ; permanently reserved script = 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code region = 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166-1 code / 3DIGIT ; UN M.49 code variant = 5*8alphanum ; registered variants / (DIGIT 3alphanum) extension = singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum)) ; Single alphanumerics ; "x" reserved for private use singleton = %x41-57 ; a - w / %x59-5A ; y - z / %x61-77 ; A - W / %x79-7A ; Y - Z / DIGIT ; 0 - 9 privateuse = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) grandfathered = irregular ; non-redundant tags registered / regular ; during the RFC 3066 era irregular = "en-GB-oed" ; irregular tags do not match / "i-ami" ; the 'langtag' production and / "i-bnn" ; would not otherwise be / "i-default" ; considered 'well-formed' / "i-enochian" ; These tags are all valid, / "i-hak" ; but most are deprecated / "i-klingon" ; in favor of more modern / "i-lux" ; subtags or subtag / "i-mingo" ; combination / "i-navajo" / "i-pwn" / "i-tao" / "i-tay" / "i-tsu" / "sgn-BE-FR" / "sgn-BE-NL" / "sgn-CH-DE" Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 6] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 regular = "art-lojban" ; these tags match the 'langtag' / "cel-gaulish" ; production, but their subtags / "no-bok" ; are not extended language / "no-nyn" ; or variant subtags: their meaning / "zh-guoyu" ; is defined by their registration / "zh-hakka" ; and all of these are deprecated / "zh-min" ; in favor of a more modern / "zh-min-nan" ; subtag or sequence of subtags / "zh-xiang" alphanum = (ALPHA / DIGIT) ; letters and numbers Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF * * * 2.1, p. 6, par 5 There is a subtlety in the ABNF production 'variant': {COMMENTS: 1. ??? Do you need this comment about 'subtlety'?; the information that follows this--see below--is sufficient!}> {NULL, nothing here needed.} * * * * * * a variant starting with a digit has a minimum length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have a minimum length of five characters. {COMMENT: 1. If you delete the sentence above, beginning, "There is a subtlety . . . ," then make the 'a' upper case.} > A variant starting with a digit . . . * * * * * * 2.2. Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation p. 8, par 3 Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length and content restrictions. These make identification of the subtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when parsing tags simpler. {COMMENTS: 1. last sentence is awkward and wordy; change.} > This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to either the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry, and simplifies exception handling associated with the parsing of language tags. * * * * * * 2.2 p. 8, par 5 {CLARIFICATION?? NEED CLARIFICATION of the first sentence in the paragraph below: What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right? } Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. These sequences are introduced by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows: > Sequences of private use (not including those reserved sequences for language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz' and reserved sequences for region subtags including 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-XZ', and 'ZZ') and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. * * * * * * 2.2.1. Primary Language Subtag, p. 10, par 1, item 5 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example of what such a registration might include: one of the grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- Latn" valid. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. { COMMENT: 1. A transition--such as "However," "The above notwithstanding," etc, is needed to go the second paragraph in item 5 above.} > However, at he time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. * * * * * * 2.2.1, p. 11, par. 6 {COMMENT/CLARIFICATION?: What is the reference for "these" in the first sentence of the paragraph below? I do not think "these" is needed; that is I do not think you need to refer back to a prior mention of these problems. } To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.prin]: > To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice ( (as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.prin]: * * * "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO 639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1. This is to ensure consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2 code for that language is not available." * * * End of comments through section 2.2.1 * * * --CEW --_19b45af5-6d7f-4ca6-b6e5-b9af17aff605_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi!

Following are my comments to date on:
Draft  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 notesþ  Section 2 Comments (will break ithis up into three emails as well, one containing strictly editorial comments, one containing strictly comments on the content (which I have little of), one containing strictly requests for clarifications.)

Is it too late now to get in these very very late mostly editorial comments?  (I did want to comment earlier but have not had all that much computer time; I could rent at the copy center but am sort of broke; sorry).

Best,


C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com 

2.1, Page 4, par 2.
* * *
   There are different types of subtag, each of which is distinguished
   by length, position in the tag, and content: each subtag's type can
   be recognized solely by these features.  This makes it possible to
   extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if
   the specific subtag values are not recognized.  Thus, a language tag
   processor need not have a list of valid tags or subtags (that is, a
   copy of some version of the IANA Language Subtag Registry) in order
   to perform common searching and matching operations.  The only
   exceptions to this ability to infer meaning from subtag structure are
   the grandfathered tags listed in the productions 'regular' and
   'irregular' below.  These tags were registered under [RFC3066] and
   are a fixed list that can never change.
 
{COMMENTS:
1.  The above paragraph is a bit awkward, hard to read}
>  There are several/different types of subtags.  A subtag's length and position in the language tag, as well as its content, serves to distinguish its subtag type.  Thus it is possible to extract from and assign to the subtag some semantic information, even when the subtag's specific value is not recognized. Because of this, a language tag processor need not have a list of all valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of the IANA Language Subtag Registry), in order to perform common searching and matching operations on the tag.  Exceptions are the 'regular' and 'irregular' grandfathered tags, listed below.  Semantic information cannot be extracted from the indiv
 idual subtags that compose the grandfathered language tags because these tags are only interpretable only as wholes.  The order of and length of subtags that make up the 'irregular' grandfathered tags may in fact vary from the rules governing order and length of subtags specified in this document (see below).  It is therefore possible, in an irregular grandfathered language tag, to have a variant subtag composed of fewer than four characters or a subtag denoting a region preceding one denoting a language, as in, for example, "sgn-BE-fr" (which denotes Belgian French sign language, the French language as used in Belgium).  The grandfathered tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. 
 
     
* * *
* * *
2.1, page 4, par. 3
The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC5234] is:
{COMMENTS:
1.  It is confusing to have the whole list that follows with no real introduction; what about a short definition of the syntax first?}
 
>  The language tag (referred to below as langtag) in ABNF [FRC5234] is composed of one (1) language (or macrolanguage?) subtag, followed by--in order--zero or one extended language subtag, zero or one script subtag, zero or one region subtag, sero or more variant subtags, and zero or more singletons (single character prefixes) for extension language subtags, with each singleton followed by one or more extension language subtags.
The language tag may be interrupted anywhere in the tag (including initial position) by private use subtags.  These are introduced by the singleton x.  The singleton x indicates that all content that follows is governed 
 by private agreement only, and that its meaning and arrangement is not covered in this document (see section 2.2.7 and 4.6 below for more information on private use subtags).

Rules governing the length of the various types of subtags are specified below and in Section 2.2.
 
As noted above, grandfathered language tags are not governed by all of the above rules of syntax (for more on grandfathered tags, see 2.2.8, below).

* * *
* * *
2.1, pages 4-6
{COMMENTS:

1.  My main comment on the section below is that I find it very distracting and bizarre to use the asterisk [*] to indicate a variable number of letters and numbers, for example 5*8 indicates 5 to 8 letters in a variant subtag beginning with a letter;
I would prefer some other symbol-- 5 - 8; or 5-8 or 5to8??  Thanks.}
 Language-Tag  = langtag           
   ; normal language tags
               / privateuse          ; private use tag
               / grandfathered       ; grandfathered tags

 langtag       = language
                 ["-" script]
                 ["-" region]
                 *("-" variant)
                 *("-" extension)
                 ["-" privateuse]

 language      = 2*3ALPHA            ; shortest ISO 639 code
                 ["-" extlang]       ; sometimes followed by
                                     ;   extended language subtags
               / 4ALPHA              ; or reserved for future use
               / 5*8ALPHA            ; or registered language subtag




Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                  [Page 5]

Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008


 extlang       = 3ALPHA              ; selected ISO 639 codes
                 *2("-" 3ALPHA)      ; permanently reserved

 script        = 4ALPHA              ; ISO 15924 code

 region        = 2ALPHA              ; ISO 3166-1 code
               / 3DIGIT              ; UN M.49 code

 variant       = 5*8alphanum         ; registered variants
               / (DIGIT 3alphanum)

 extension     = singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum))

                                     ; Single alphanumerics
                                     ; "x" reserved for private use
 singleton     = %x41-57             ; a - w
               / %x59-5A             ; y - z
               / %x61-77             ; A - W
               / %x79-7A             ; Y - Z
              
  / DIGIT               ; 0 - 9


 privateuse    = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum))

 grandfathered = irregular           ; non-redundant tags registered
               / regular             ;   during the RFC 3066 era


 irregular     = "en-GB-oed"         ; irregular tags do not match
               / "i-ami"             ; the 'langtag' production and
               / "i-bnn"             ; would not otherwise be
               / "i-default"         ; considered 'well-formed'
               / "i-enochian"        ; These tags are all valid,
               / "i-hak"             ; but most are deprecated
               / "i-klingon"         ; in favor of more modern
               / "i-lux"             ; subtags or subtag
               / "i-mingo"           ; combination
               / "i-navajo"
               / "i-pwn"
               / "i-tao"
               / "i-tay"               / "i-tsu"
               / "sgn-BE-FR"
               / "sgn-BE-NL"
               / "sgn-CH-DE"






Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                  [Page 6]

Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008


 regular       = "art-lojban"        ; these tags match the 'langtag'
               / "cel-gaulish"       ; production, but their subtags
               / "no-bok"            ; are not extended language
               / "no-nyn"            ; or variant subtags: their meaning
               / "zh-guoyu"          ; is defined by their registration
               / "zh-
 hakka"          ; and all of these are deprecated
               / "zh-min"            ; in favor of a more modern
               / "zh-min-nan"        ; subtag or sequence of subtags
               / "zh-xiang"

 alphanum      = (ALPHA / DIGIT)     ; letters and numbers

                        Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF

* * *
2.1, p. 6, par 5
There is a subtlety in the ABNF
   production 'variant': 

{COMMENTS:
1.  ???  Do you need this comment about 'subtlety'?; the information that follows this--see below--is sufficient!}
> {NULL, nothing here needed.}
* * *
* * *
a variant starting with a digit has a minimum
   length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have a
   minimum length of five characters.

{COMMENT:
1.  If you delete the sentence above, b
 eginning, "There is a subtlety . . . ," then make the 'a' upper case.}

> A variant starting with a digit . . . 


* * *

* * *



2.2.  Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation

 
p. 8, par 3

   Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length
   and content restrictions.  These make identification of the subtag's
   type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is
   unrecognized.  This allows tags to be parsed and processed without
   reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the
   IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when
   parsing tags simpler.

{COMMENTS:

1.  last sentence is awkward and wordy; change.}

> This allows tags to 
 be parsed and processed without reference to either the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry, and simplifies exception handling associated with the parsing of language tags.

* * *
 

* * *
2.2 p. 8, par 5

{CLARIFICATION??
NEED CLARIFICATION of the first sentence in the paragraph below:

What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' 
These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right?
}
 
  Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end
   of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags
   defined elsewhere in this document.  These sequences are introduced
   by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows:

> Sequences of private use (not 
 including those reserved sequences for language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz' and reserved sequences for region subtags including 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-XZ', and 'ZZ') and extension subtags
MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document.

* * *



* * *


2.2.1.  Primary Language Subtag, p. 10, par 1, item 5




   5.  Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA
       registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5
       and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  An example
       of what such a registration might include: one of the
       gr
 andfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian".  The subtag
       'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary
       language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this
       language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian-
       Latn" valid.

       At the time this document was created, there were no examples of
       this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
       discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
       registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/
       RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered
       with IANA.

{ COMMENT:
1.  A transition--such as "However," "The above notwithstanding," etc, is needed to go the second paragraph in item 5 above.}

> However, at 
he time this document was created, there were no examples of
       this kind of subtag and future registrations of thi
 s type are
       discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
       registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/
       RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered
       with IANA.

* * *
 

* * *
2.2.1, p. 11, par. 6



{COMMENT/CLARIFICATION?:

What is the reference for "these" in the first sentence of the paragraph below?
I do not think "these" is needed; that is I do not think you need to refer back to a prior mention of these problems.
}
   To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as
   experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as
   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this
   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee
   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the follow
 ing statement in
   [iso639.prin]:

> To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice (
(as
   experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as
   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this
   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee
   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in
   [iso639.prin]:

* * *
      "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO
      639-1 shall n
 ot later be added to ISO 639-1.  This is to ensure
      consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in
      Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2
      code for that language is not available."


* * * End of comments through section 2.2.1 * * *

--CEW
--_19b45af5-6d7f-4ca6-b6e5-b9af17aff605_-- --===============0681679411== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0681679411==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 29 14:30:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CBF3A6B1E; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:26 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB55A3A6B1E for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 40ZlcEsg1+Xs for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA79C3A6A15 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:20 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:20 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU list Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:30:20 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclQy52iI4AfmhLZfEauTV+LLetQMQBpeTkA Message-ID: References: <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent Karlsson > -2 apparently keeps the "(other)" interpretation, while -5 does not. LTRU > has adopted the -5 interpretation (inclusive), otherwise the collection > codes would stand for nothing. The JAC is discussing changes to -2 that would make -2 and -5 consistent, with all collections inclusive, and allowing for conforming applications to recognize only subsets and to treat some collections as exclusive (i.e., the "(other)" interpretation) in that application context. > The use of collection codes in language tags is dubious, like saying > "it's language group so-and-so, but information about individual language is > not available". I'm of the same general opinion. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 29 14:33:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 825163A6A03; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:24 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F1603A6A03 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YUsnu6UnSTZj for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A6E3A69EA for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.24.67) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:18 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.24.67]) with mapi; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:18 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:33:17 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclRlSWu263IFMKARdKWot4yt0T0UAA3QCfw Message-ID: References: <37286503D01B4601BF2508ED6A84DDBE@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <37286503D01B4601BF2508ED6A84DDBE@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hmmm... I'm not sure I like the idea of including informing the masses (or even individuals) as one of the purposes of this WG list -- it doesn't exactly move us forward in completing items in the charter, does it? Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 12:09 PM [snip] I thought that it would be more productive to point him to this mailing list, where these knowledge gaps could be filled in. IMHO this serves the interests of the LTRU project better than leaving interested parties in the dark while making sure the list stays free of traffic. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 29 14:44:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D13443A6A03; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A743A6A03 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YXwEpZnTCzCu for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C113A69CB for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.188) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:41 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.188]) with mapi; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:41 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU list , CLDR Users Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:44:40 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclRd/YbLzrsq1ewSauyySw8hEgRDAA+qAxQ Message-ID: References: <33137264.132670.1227812081369.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b07> <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> In-Reply-To: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org As I've explained in the past on this list and various other loci, the exclusive nature of some collections in 639-2 has all along been a problem because of the dynamic nature of the standard: not only are the denotations fuzzy, they are unstable. Broadening the scope of those existing collections does not introduce any compatibility issues with existing applications, given that conforming applications can continue to treat certain collections as exclusive in that given application context if desired, and it eliminates the general problem of instability. CLDR and other applications of ISO 639 may experience a one-time change in the name data published with ISO 639, but it is known that ISO 639 can and not infrequently does make name changes, and that applications must allow for that. So, this is not an exceptional problem. Also, adding new categories to replace the existing ones is incredibly destabilizing, with compatibility impact on all applications. Thus, I strongly disagree with Philippe. Peter From: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of verdy_p [snip] I remain convinced that the unexpected change of scope for most collections of ISO 639-1/2 (where their exclusive scope was also very fuzzy, undetermined across versions of ISO 639-1/2 that constantly reduced their scope) when converted to ISO 639-5 is a defect. And that for the future, a comprehensive list containing only inclusive families coded distinctly from the old exclusive codes would have been better: ... Under this scheme, there would have been less problems in the CLDR collections (that were updated inconsistently just in the middle of the last edit session during last spring, at a time where ISO 639-5 was even still not released at all, and too late for getting enough votes and apply the changes consistently in the localized names). Because of this incompatiblity between ISO 639-1/2 and ISO 639-5, now the current release of CLDR is completely inconsistent for the names of language collections ! _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 29 15:17:55 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 340CA3A6C12; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:55 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA5E33A6A39 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b6aPaXuO78Gs for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D4383A69E0 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:42 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:42 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU list , CLDR Users Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 15:17:42 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclRoY5IaKSzqlIZTsqmKr1I+U1UbQA1ZQuQ Message-ID: References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> In-Reply-To: <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org [mailto:cldr-users-bounce@unicode.org] On Behalf Of verdy_p Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 1:31 PM The need for a language hierarchy (by families) is to simplify the search... An informal suggestion: while Ethnologue is not formally part of ISO 639, it is maintained so as to stay consistent with ISO 639, and ISO 639-3 makes use of Ethnologue as a source to clarify the denotation of its encoded categories. Since the Ethnologue site provides a comprehensive language-family classification, one could search on the Ethnologue site to find particular languages, and then follow the links provided to get to the corresponding ISO 639-3 entry. For example, starting at the Ethnologue language-family index (http://www.ethnologue.com/family_index.asp), you can follow the link for the Iroquoian family to get the complete hierarchy of Iroquoian languages, then select the link for (say) Mohawk to get the entry for that language, and then from there follow the link to get to the entry on the ISO 639-3 site for "moh". Caveat: as with any hierarchical language classification, the classification used by Ethnologue is one of several possible analyses (Ethnologue primarily follows the _International Encyclopaedia of Linguistics_), and not all experts would necessarily posit the same hierarchy, though most linguists would likely be somewhat familiar with that analysis and find it reasonably workable for searching by language-family hierarchy. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Nov 29 19:02:19 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D891E3A6967; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A30C3A68C5 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:02:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.972, BAYES_20=-0.74, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uY9GBE1SFnsv for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 725963A67F0 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 2008 19:02:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24467 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2008 03:02:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout05-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.221) with ESMTP; 30 Nov 2008 03:02:04 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:02:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UGV0ZXIgQ29uc3RhYmxlIDxwZXRlcmNvbiBhdCBtaWNyb3NvZnQgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+ PiBUaGUgdXNlIG9mIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZXMgaW4gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFncyBpcyBkdWJpb3Vz LCBsaWtlIHNheWluZyAKPj4gIml0J3MgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgZ3JvdXAgc28tYW5kLXNvLCBidXQgaW5m b3JtYXRpb24gYWJvdXQgaW5kaXZpZHVhbCAKPj4gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgaXMgbm90IGF2YWlsYWJsZSIu Cj4KPiBJJ20gb2YgdGhlIHNhbWUgZ2VuZXJhbCBvcGluaW9uLgoKU28gYW0gSSwgd2hlbiB3ZSBh cmUgdGFsa2luZyBhYm91dCB0aGUgInRyYWRpdGlvbmFsIiB1c2VzIG9mIGxhbmd1YWdlIAp0YWdz LCB2aXouIHRhZ2dpbmcgV2ViIHBhZ2VzIGFuZCBlLW1haWxzLCBvciBzcGVjaWZ5aW5nIGRlc2ly ZWQgbWF0Y2hlcyAKaW4gV2ViIHNlYXJjaCBlbmdpbmVzLgoKQnV0IHRoZXJlIG1heSBiZSBvdGhl ciBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgb2YgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFncyB3aGljaCB3ZSBoYXZlbid0IAp5ZXQgdGhv dWdodCBvZiwgaW4gd2hpY2ggdGhlIHNlbmRlciBjb3VsZCBzYXksICJUaGlzIGNvbnRlbnQgaXMg aW4gc29tZSAKQXVzdHJvLUFzaWF0aWMgbGFuZ3VhZ2UsIGJ1dCBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgd2hpY2gg b25lIiBhbmQgdGhlIHJlY2VpdmVyIAptYXkgYmUgYWJsZSB0byBtYWtlIHNvbWUgdXNlIG9mIHRo YXQga25vd2xlZGdlLiAgSSB0aGluayBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBhIAptaXN0YWtlIGZvciB1cyB0byBh c3N1bWUgdGhhdCBubyBzdWNoIGFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIGV4aXN0cyBvciB3aWxsIGV4aXN0LiAKSW5k ZWVkLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgaG9wZSB0aGF0IEJDUCA0NyBpcyBzbyB3b25kZXJmdWwgYW5kIHNvIHdl bGwgZGVzaWduZWQgCnRoYXQgcGVvcGxlIGZpbmQgbmV3IHVzZXMgZm9yIGl0LgoKQ29sbGVjdGlv biBjb2RlcyBoYXZlIG5vdCBjYXVzZWQgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgdHJvdWJsZSBpbiB0aGUgcGFzdC4g IFRoZXJlIApoYXMgYmVlbiBubyBncmVhdCBlcGlkZW1pYyBvZiBwZW9wbGUgdGFnZ2luZyBjb250 ZW50IGFzICJHZXJtYW5pYyAKKG90aGVyKSIgd2hlbiB0aGV5IHNob3VsZCBoYXZlIGNob3NlbiBh IHN1YnRhZyBmb3IgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBHZXJtYW5pYyAKbGFuZ3VhZ2UgaW5zdGVhZCwgYW5kIEkg ZG9uJ3QgaW1hZ2luZSB0aGUgY2hhbmdlIGluIHNjb3BlIGZyb20gZXhjbHVzaXZlIAp0byBpbmNs dXNpdmUgd2lsbCBicmluZyBvbiBzdWNoIGFuIGVwaWRlbWljLiAgQXMgd2l0aCBwcml2YXRlLXVz ZSAKc3VidGFncywgSSdkIGJlIG9wcG9zZWQgdG8gbWFraW5nIGFueSBjaGFuZ2UgdGhhdCB3b3Vs ZCBmdXJ0aGVyIApkaXNjb3VyYWdlIHRoZXNlLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24s IENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxp Yy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRt bApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdl cyAgy4YgCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpM dHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 30 17:29:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2872428C198; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:29:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6805F3A684E for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 03:22:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.063 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.063 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3vlY5djE9j6 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 03:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp1b.orange.fr (smtp1b.orange.fr [193.252.23.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ACA63A6407 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 03:22:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from me-wanadoo.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mwinf1b02.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id E5F66700008A; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:22:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from wwinf1b09 (wwinf1b09 [10.232.19.52]) by mwinf1b02.orange.fr (SMTP Server) with ESMTP id D60E67000085; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:22:18 +0100 (CET) X-ME-UUID: 20081130112218876.D60E67000085@mwinf1b02.orange.fr From: verdy_p To: Peter Constable , LTRU list , CLDR Users Message-ID: <1278190.111635.1228044138842.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b09> In-Reply-To: References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: [79.82.50.184] X-Wum-Nature: EMAIL-NATURE X-WUM-FROM: |~| X-WUM-TO: |~||~||~| X-WUM-REPLYTO: |~| Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:22:18 +0100 (CET) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 17:29:12 -0800 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: verdy_p List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org "Peter Constable" > The need for a language hierarchy (by families) is to simplify the search... > > An informal suggestion: while Ethnologue is not formally part of ISO 639, it is maintained so as to stay consistent with ISO 639, and ISO 639-3 makes use of Ethnologue as a source to clarify the denotation of its encoded categories. Since the Ethnologue site provides a comprehensive language-family classification, one could search on the Ethnologue site to find particular languages, and then follow the links provided to get to the corresponding ISO 639-3 entry. That's exactly the kind of reason why we need such classification ALSO in other languages than English. But without a reliable codification of families, of their hierarchy (at least a minimal classification in the most important groups, possibly excluding finely tuned intermediate subdivisions), and more importantly of the membership of isolated languages and macrolanguages that are direct children of those families, building such hierarchy and making it usable is illusory. Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages, and the fact that families are hierarchized as well, creates a hole that must be filled between families and languages (this will close the mess that was introduced in ISO 639-1/2 when exclusive (and unstable) family names were given (with various and non interoperable results about which languages get included or not in a search of results by family names). Believe it, searching for terms within a complete language family rather than precise language name or even just macrolanguage, is not an unbelievable situation. Linguists are performing such things very often, notably when looking for etymologia; translators are also looking for translated terms that were chosen in other related languages; terminologists and advertizers or "brand builders" want to look for terms in families to check if a new chosen term for a given language may be misinterpreted by less qualified translators or readers of another language. Yes it's true that encoded texts should never be tagged and indexed directly by a family language code. But family codes are as essential as language codes for full-text searches. In addition, it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any collective code from a list containing ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect the fact that this is effectively a collection of distinct languages (so, no more label that just displays "Apache" or "Bihari"). That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made, and I do think that this is an error (on the opposite, I support the decision of dropping the "(Other)" word). If a short name is needed (without any plural mark and without the "languages" word that generally comes with the language adjective), it should be encoded as a separate variant in CLDR: this short name should be used only when displaying filtered lists that contain only collections. Note that isolated short language names are generally nouns, but if they are used as a complement to an expression containing "language(s)", then they are adjectives and may be written differently (sometimes not even with the same words despite that, in general, the adjectives are simple derivation still needing some changes for marking the plural, feminine or genitive cases, depending on the language used to name the referenced language). Note also that some English names/descriptions used by ISO 639 and in the RFC 4645bis draft or in the IANA database for BCP 47 may contain some non capitalizable letters, but ISO 639 is always wrong about these letters when it uses ASCII punctuation like "!" and math symbols like "/", "//" or "=/" or ASCII apostrophe instead of true Latin clicks or dropping the apostrophe letters in a way that makes the language name ambiguous or unreadable; note also that The Ethnologue lists, for some of them but not all of them, some synonymes using capitalizable letters only): The ISO 639 documents say that they are themselves normally encoded with UTF-8 (possible using numeric character entities for the plain-text version), meaning that these documents should support Unicode characters and should not use any ASCII substitutes... This is also true for the HTML version displayed online on the ISO 639/RA sites (including on SIL.org), and the language names that were finally used in the English locale of the CLDR! _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 30 20:17:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D3FC3A6832; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1370E3A6832 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y9Zblryg4Gag for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF923A67D9 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:39 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:14 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:17:07 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclSmBG4VMW0nUe8Shq8+F4q5vJOewA00d9g Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell >>> The use of collection codes in language tags is dubious, like saying >>> "it's language group so-and-so, but information about individual >>> language is not available". >> >> I'm of the same general opinion. > > So am I, when we are talking about the "traditional" uses of language > tags, viz. tagging Web pages and e-mails, or specifying desired matches > in Web search engines. > > But there may be other applications of language tags... Which is why I included the "general" qualifier in my comment. I didn't mean to re-open this issue: we debated this a long time ago, and the consensus taken was to continue to include collective language categories in the registry. There's no reason to re-visit that. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 30 20:48:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B170D3A67EE; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76B953A67EE for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WvfTfngcDNgE for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090CD3A67B6 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.186) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:41 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:40 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: verdy_p , LTRU list Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 20:48:32 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) Thread-Index: AclS3e1Ego/NEgrPSzmG4REJ1yH3VgAjc+Eg Message-ID: References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> <1278190.111635.1228044138842.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b09> In-Reply-To: <1278190.111635.1228044138842.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b09> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages, > and the fact that families are hierarchized as well, creates a hole > that must be filled between families and languages... If you mean that there is action needed on the part of the ISO 639 RAs or JAC, then that is out of scope for this WG and should be taken up elsewhere (with those bodies). If you mean that something needs to be changed in the language-subtag registry, or in 4646bis, then I don't see any such need: ISO 639-3 provides very comprehensive coverage of languages, and there is not a lot of likelihood that users would need to tag content for some language not covered by 639-3 but potentially (perhaps not clearly) covered by one or more collective categories in 639-5. Also, the use case for collective categories in language tagging is, I think, not that great. > it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any collective > code from a list containing ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect > the fact that this is effectively a collection of distinct languages If you mean that it must be clear when a subtag in the Language Subtag Registry represents a collection, then I completely agree. > That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made... That is an issue for the CLDR TC to consider and is out of scope for the LTRU WG. Btw, can we please *not* cross-post items between LTRU and CLDR Users. (I've moved CLDR Users to bcc to that end.) CLDR Users is an informal discussion list for users of CLDR, while LTRU is a technical working group: IMO there cannot possibly be a discussion that would be appropriate for both lists. > but ISO 639 is always wrong about these letters when it uses > ASCII punctuation... Please address concerns regarding ISO 639 to the relevant RA. Peter -----Original Message----- From: verdy_p [mailto:verdy_p@wanadoo.fr] Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:22 AM To: Peter Constable; LTRU list; CLDR Users Subject: RE: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) "Peter Constable" > The need for a language hierarchy (by families) is to simplify the search... > > An informal suggestion: while Ethnologue is not formally part of ISO 639, it is maintained so as to stay consistent with ISO 639, and ISO 639-3 makes use of Ethnologue as a source to clarify the denotation of its encoded categories. Since the Ethnologue site provides a comprehensive language-family classification, one could search on the Ethnologue site to find particular languages, and then follow the links provided to get to the corresponding ISO 639-3 entry. That's exactly the kind of reason why we need such classification ALSO in other languages than English. But without a reliable codification of families, of their hierarchy (at least a minimal classification in the most important groups, possibly excluding finely tuned intermediate subdivisions), and more importantly of the membership of isolated languages and macrolanguages that are direct children of those families, building such hierarchy and making it usable is illusory. Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages, and the fact that families are hierarchized as well, creates a hole that must be filled between families and languages (this will close the mess that was introduced in ISO 639-1/2 when exclusive (and unstable) family names were given (with various and non interoperable results about which languages get included or not in a search of results by family names). Believe it, searching for terms within a complete language family rather than precise language name or even just macrolanguage, is not an unbelievable situation. Linguists are performing such things very often, notably when looking for etymologia; translators are also looking for translated terms that were chosen in other related languages; terminologists and advertizers or "brand builders" want to look for terms in families to check if a new chosen term for a given language may be misinterpreted by less qualified translators or readers of another language. Yes it's true that encoded texts should never be tagged and indexed directly by a family language code. But family codes are as essential as language codes for full-text searches. In addition, it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any collective code from a list containing ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect the fact that this is effectively a collection of distinct languages (so, no more label that just displays "Apache" or "Bihari"). That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made, and I do think that this is an error (on the opposite, I support the decision of dropping the "(Other)" word). If a short name is needed (without any plural mark and without the "languages" word that generally comes with the language adjective), it should be encoded as a separate variant in CLDR: this short name should be used only when displaying filtered lists that contain only collections. Note that isolated short language names are generally nouns, but if they are used as a complement to an expression containing "language(s)", then they are adjectives and may be written differently (sometimes not even with the same words despite that, in general, the adjectives are simple derivation still needing some changes for marking the plural, feminine or genitive cases, depending on the language used to name the referenced language). Note also that some English names/descriptions used by ISO 639 and in the RFC 4645bis draft or in the IANA database for BCP 47 may contain some non capitalizable letters, but ISO 639 is always wrong about these letters when it uses ASCII punctuation like "!" and math symbols like "/", "//" or "=/" or ASCII apostrophe instead of true Latin clicks or dropping the apostrophe letters in a way that makes the language name ambiguous or unreadable; note also that The Ethnologue lists, for some of them but not all of them, some synonymes using capitalizable letters only): The ISO 639 documents say that they are themselves normally encoded with UTF-8 (possible using numeric character entities for the plain-text version), meaning that these documents should support Unicode characters and should not use any ASCII substitutes... This is also true for the HTML version displayed online on the ISO 639/RA sites (including on SIL.org), and the language names that were finally used in the English locale of the CLDR! _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Nov 30 21:08:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F123A67EE; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:08:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E14253A67B6 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:08:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.459 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.459 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.720, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YtRjbTpxWtay for ; 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c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=RV0VNfx1dZUtGa5nUmr1Zm01wAqjKhCxec9HF4vLYCI=; b=buA/sGURtXkFWKx8X3wzXWqhgrnDErjnuil9OIUQMgZFyOmhF9BqibCovONxieLrsZ fnqmcLAK/Wp2QMVXcBq4XM8ccxiX34Ka5plKKtVi3fbXkghr7SauNtFMyPnxpDP4Vh8M DAy76vvArFN8ckLOyg9Sf48pMEQYFw8p7iAFc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=BkuDHPUwQM5zAAvRDwnQR4S19PwkXmMDI5e8/wtSKKSQFwHNPAv/bvNt+NI9uoNfa2 yliqW3aHWTgaAaNJhit5VZO3OXU9H68aT7MPn4Z/cuKiVGIKjkrjALLS+WMpFcmZTalg DAoBEkKbxaum5Gq5JI7G2hgRK8i3XImuQxMkM= Received: by 10.143.16.9 with SMTP id t9mr4372290wfi.329.1228111827879; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:10:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:10:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20811302210k539bbaf0l28e369871ffc47c5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:10:27 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: verdy_p In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <26167938.151195.1227889751081.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b05> <9408639.170683.1227907879651.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b02> <1278190.111635.1228044138842.JavaMail.www@wwinf1b09> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 18f44fa04e5a7cef Cc: LTRU list Subject: Re: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0268339218==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0268339218== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_79048_21289269.1228111827878" ------=_Part_79048_21289269.1228111827878 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Peter, on all counts. In particular, it muddies the waters when you cross-post, because it becomes completely unclear what you are asking for, why, and from whom. Mark On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 20:48, Peter Constable wrote: > > Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages, > > and the fact that families are hierarchized as well, creates a hole > > that must be filled between families and languages... > > If you mean that there is action needed on the part of the ISO 639 RAs or > JAC, then that is out of scope for this WG and should be taken up elsewhere > (with those bodies). > > If you mean that something needs to be changed in the language-subtag > registry, or in 4646bis, then I don't see any such need: ISO 639-3 provides > very comprehensive coverage of languages, and there is not a lot of > likelihood that users would need to tag content for some language not > covered by 639-3 but potentially (perhaps not clearly) covered by one or > more collective categories in 639-5. Also, the use case for collective > categories in language tagging is, I think, not that great. > > > > it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any collective > > code from a list containing ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect > > the fact that this is effectively a collection of distinct languages > > If you mean that it must be clear when a subtag in the Language Subtag > Registry represents a collection, then I completely agree. > > > > That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made... > > That is an issue for the CLDR TC to consider and is out of scope for the > LTRU WG. > > Btw, can we please *not* cross-post items between LTRU and CLDR Users. > (I've moved CLDR Users to bcc to that end.) CLDR Users is an informal > discussion list for users of CLDR, while LTRU is a technical working group: > IMO there cannot possibly be a discussion that would be appropriate for both > lists. > > > > but ISO 639 is always wrong about these letters when it uses > > ASCII punctuation... > > Please address concerns regarding ISO 639 to the relevant RA. > > > Peter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: verdy_p [mailto:verdy_p@wanadoo.fr] > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:22 AM > To: Peter Constable; LTRU list; CLDR Users > Subject: RE: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool > pre-alpha) > > "Peter Constable" > > The need for a language hierarchy (by families) is to simplify the > search... > > > > An informal suggestion: while Ethnologue is not formally part of ISO 639, > it is maintained so as to stay > consistent with ISO 639, and ISO 639-3 makes use of Ethnologue as a source > to clarify the denotation of its encoded > categories. Since the Ethnologue site provides a comprehensive > language-family classification, one could search on > the Ethnologue site to find particular languages, and then follow the links > provided to get to the corresponding > ISO 639-3 entry. > > That's exactly the kind of reason why we need such classification ALSO in > other languages than English. But without > a reliable codification of families, of their hierarchy (at least a minimal > classification in the most important > groups, possibly excluding finely tuned intermediate subdivisions), and > more importantly of the membership of > isolated languages and macrolanguages that are direct children of those > families, building such hierarchy and > making it usable is illusory. > > Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages, and > the fact that families are hierarchized > as well, creates a hole that must be filled between families and languages > (this will close the mess that was > introduced in ISO 639-1/2 when exclusive (and unstable) family names were > given (with various and non interoperable > results about which languages get included or not in a search of results by > family names). > > Believe it, searching for terms within a complete language family rather > than precise language name or even just > macrolanguage, is not an unbelievable situation. Linguists are performing > such things very often, notably when > looking for etymologia; translators are also looking for translated terms > that were chosen in other related > languages; terminologists and advertizers or "brand builders" want to look > for terms in families to check if a new > chosen term for a given language may be misinterpreted by less qualified > translators or readers of another > language. > > Yes it's true that encoded texts should never be tagged and indexed > directly by a family language code. But family > codes are as essential as language codes for full-text searches. > > In addition, it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any > collective code from a list containing > ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect the fact that this is > effectively a collection of distinct languages > (so, no more label that just displays "Apache" or "Bihari"). > > That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made, and I do think that > this is an error (on the opposite, I > support the decision of dropping the "(Other)" word). If a short name is > needed (without any plural mark and > without the "languages" word that generally comes with the language > adjective), it should be encoded as a separate > variant in CLDR: this short name should be used only when displaying > filtered lists that contain only collections. > > Note that isolated short language names are generally nouns, but if they > are used as a complement to an expression > containing "language(s)", then they are adjectives and may be written > differently (sometimes not even with the same > words despite that, in general, the adjectives are simple derivation still > needing some changes for marking the > plural, feminine or genitive cases, depending on the language used to name > the referenced language). > > Note also that some English names/descriptions used by ISO 639 and in the > RFC 4645bis draft or in the IANA database > for BCP 47 may contain some non capitalizable letters, but ISO 639 is > always wrong about these letters when it uses > ASCII punctuation like "!" and math symbols like "/", "//" or "=/" or ASCII > apostrophe instead of true Latin clicks > or dropping the apostrophe letters in a way that makes the language name > ambiguous or unreadable; note also that > The Ethnologue lists, for some of them but not all of them, some synonymes > using capitalizable letters only): > > The ISO 639 documents say that they are themselves normally encoded with > UTF-8 (possible using numeric character > entities for the plain-text version), meaning that these documents should > support Unicode characters and should not > use any ASCII substitutes... This is also true for the HTML version > displayed online on the ISO 639/RA sites > (including on SIL.org), and the language names that were finally used in > the English locale of the CLDR! > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_79048_21289269.1228111827878 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree with Peter, on all counts. 

In particular, it muddies the waters when you cross-post, because it becomes completely unclear what you are asking for, why, and from whom.

Mark


On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 20:48, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages,
> and the fact that families are hierarchized as well, creates a hole
> that must be filled between families and languages...

If you mean that there is action needed on the part of the ISO 639 RAs or JAC, then that is out of scope for this WG and should be taken up elsewhere (with those bodies).

If you mean that something needs to be changed in the language-subtag registry, or in 4646bis, then I don't see any such need: ISO 639-3 provides very comprehensive coverage of languages, and there is not a lot of likelihood that users would need to tag content for some language not covered by 639-3 but potentially (perhaps not clearly) covered by one or more collective categories in 639-5. Also, the use case for collective categories in language tagging is, I think, not that great.


> it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any collective
> code from a list containing ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect
> the fact that this is effectively a collection of distinct languages

If you mean that it must be clear when a subtag in the Language Subtag Registry represents a collection, then I completely agree.


> That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made...

That is an issue for the CLDR TC to consider and is out of scope for the LTRU WG.

Btw, can we please *not* cross-post items between LTRU and CLDR Users. (I've moved CLDR Users to bcc to that end.) CLDR Users is an informal discussion list for users of CLDR, while LTRU is a technical working group: IMO there cannot possibly be a discussion that would be appropriate for both lists.


> but ISO 639 is always wrong about these letters when it uses
> ASCII punctuation...

Please address concerns regarding ISO 639 to the relevant RA.


Peter


-----Original Message-----
From: verdy_p [mailto:verdy_p@wanadoo.fr]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 3:22 AM
To: Peter Constable; LTRU list; CLDR Users
Subject: RE: [Ltru] [CLDR] Re: Support of ISO 639 (was: Survey Tool pre-alpha)

"Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> The need for a language hierarchy (by families) is to simplify the search...
>
> An informal suggestion: while Ethnologue is not formally part of ISO 639, it is maintained so as to stay
consistent with ISO 639, and ISO 639-3 makes use of Ethnologue as a source to clarify the denotation of its encoded
categories. Since the Ethnologue site provides a comprehensive language-family classification, one could search on
the Ethnologue site to find particular languages, and then follow the links provided to get to the corresponding
ISO 639-3 entry.

That's exactly the kind of reason why we need such classification ALSO in other languages than English. But without
a reliable codification of families, of their hierarchy (at least a minimal classification in the most important
groups, possibly excluding finely tuned intermediate subdivisions), and more importantly of the membership of
isolated languages and macrolanguages that are direct children of those families, building such hierarchy and
making it usable is illusory.

Anyway, the fact that families ARE encoded in addition with languages, and the fact that families are hierarchized
as well, creates a hole that must be filled between families and languages (this will close the mess that was
introduced in ISO 639-1/2 when exclusive (and unstable) family names were given (with various and non interoperable
results about which languages get included or not in a search of results by family names).

Believe it, searching for terms within a complete language family rather than precise language name or even just
macrolanguage, is not an unbelievable situation. Linguists are performing such things very often, notably when
looking for etymologia; translators are also looking for translated terms that were chosen in other related
languages; terminologists and advertizers or "brand builders" want to look for terms in families to check if a new
chosen term for a given language may be misinterpreted by less qualified translators or readers of another
language.

Yes it's true that encoded texts should never be tagged and indexed directly by a family language code. But family
codes are as essential as language codes for full-text searches.

In addition, it is ESSENTIAL that the labels displayed when selecting any collective code from a list containing
ISO 639 codes of various scopes MUST reflect the fact that this is effectively a collection of distinct languages
(so, no more label that just displays "Apache" or "Bihari").

That's exactly the reverse decision that CLDR made, and I do think that this is an error (on the opposite, I
support the decision of dropping the "(Other)" word). If a short name is needed (without any plural mark and
without the "languages" word that generally comes with the language adjective), it should be encoded as a separate
variant in CLDR: this short name should be used only when displaying filtered lists that contain only collections.

Note that isolated short language names are generally nouns, but if they are used as a complement to an expression
containing "language(s)", then they are adjectives and may be written differently (sometimes not even with the same
words despite that, in general, the adjectives are simple derivation still needing some changes for marking the
plural, feminine or genitive cases, depending on the language used to name the referenced language).

Note also that some English names/descriptions used by ISO 639 and in the RFC 4645bis draft or in the IANA database
for BCP 47 may contain some non capitalizable letters, but ISO 639 is always wrong about these letters when it uses
ASCII punctuation like "!" and math symbols like "/", "//" or "=/" or ASCII apostrophe instead of true Latin clicks
or dropping the apostrophe letters in a way that makes the language name ambiguous or unreadable; note also that
The Ethnologue lists, for some of them but not all of them, some synonymes using capitalizable letters only):

The ISO 639 documents say that they are themselves normally encoded with UTF-8 (possible using numeric character
entities for the plain-text version), meaning that these documents should support Unicode characters and should not
use any ASCII substitutes... This is also true for the HTML version displayed online on the ISO 639/RA sites
(including on SIL.org), and the language names that were finally used in the English locale of the CLDR!



_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_79048_21289269.1228111827878-- --===============0268339218== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0268339218==--