From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 1 10:43:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED98C28C0E2; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:43:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B60F3A6B39 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:43:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.112 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.112 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.097, BAYES_50=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, MANGLED_FROM=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_OBFU_SPLIT_HR2=0.183] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AxVG9JWysXpL for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s8.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s8.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 888303A682B for ; Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:43:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W5 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s8.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:43:40 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [70.88.11.82] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:43:40 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Dec 2008 18:43:40.0426 (UTC) FILETIME=[BA8D96A0:01C953E4] Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=FE?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0541037443==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0541037443== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_c40828fd-14c1-49ef-bc05-82d433db1fd0_" --_c40828fd-14c1-49ef-bc05-82d433db1fd0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! Regarding the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 notesū Section 2 Comments (I sent this as a whole; it is mostly editorial; I can however break it up into two or maybe three emails, one containing strictly editorial comments/corrections; and one containing requests for claridications. I've just put in all my comments for Section 2 below; I had none on Section 1; I will have a few on Section 4.6; not sure about comments on other sections as I've not had time to go over those carefully. Sorry for repeat of comments on section 2; I forgot about the private-use subtags 'Qaaa' - 'Qabx' that are reserved for script codes--in my editing of Section 2.2; so I fixed that & decided it best to send the whole corrections as a unit?? a Whether or not you take my edits, I do think you need to make one change: 2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example {COMMENT: please correct the spelling of "extention.".} > For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" Thanks. C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com * * * 2.1; Page 4; par 2. There are different types of subtag, each of which is distinguished by length, position in the tag, and content: each subtag's type can be recognized solely by these features. This makes it possible to extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if the specific subtag values are not recognized. Thus, a language tag processor need not have a list of valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of some version of the IANA Language Subtag Registry) in order to perform common searching and matching operations. The only exceptions to this ability to infer meaning from subtag structure are the grandfathered tags listed in the productions 'regular' and 'irregular' below. These tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. {COMMENTS: 1. The above paragraph is a bit awkward, hard to read} > There are several/different types of subtags. A subtag's length and position in the language tag, as well as its content, serves to distinguish its subtag type. Thus it is possible to extract from and assign to the subtag some semantic information, even when the subtag's specific value is not recognized. Because of this, a language tag processor need not have a list of all valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of the IANA Language Subtag Registry), in order to perform common searching and matching operations on the tag. Exceptions are the 'regular' and 'irregular' grandfathered tags, listed below. Semantic information cannot be extracted from the individual subtags that compose the grandfathered language tags because these tags are only interpretable only as wholes. The order of and length of subtags that make up the 'irregular' grandfathered tags may in fact vary from the rules governing order and length of subtags specified in this document (see below). It is ther efore possible, in an irregular grandfathered language tag, to have a variant subtag composed of fewer than four characters or a subtag denoting a region preceding one denoting a language, as in, for example, "sgn-BE-fr" (which denotes Belgian French sign language, the French language as used in Belgium). The grandfathered tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. * * * * * *2.1; page 4; par. 3 The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC5234] is: {COMMENTS: 1. It is confusing to have the whole list that follows with no real introduction; what about a short definition of the syntax first?} > The language tag (referred to below as langtag) in ABNF [FRC5234] is composed of one (1) language (or macrolanguage?) subtag, followed by--in order--zero or one extended language subtag, zero or one script subtag, zero or one region subtag, sero or more variant subtags, and zero or more singletons (single character prefixes) for extension language subtags, with each singleton followed by one or more extension language subtags.The language tag may be interrupted anywhere in the tag (including initial position) by private use subtags. These are introduced by the singleton x. The singleton x indicates that all content that follows is governed by private agreement only, and that its meaning and arrangement is not covered in this document (see section 2.2.7 and 4.6 below for more information on private use subtags). Rules governing the length of the various types of subtags are specified below and in Section 2.2. As noted above, grandfathered language tags are not governed by all of the above rules of syntax (for more on grandfathered tags, see 2.2.8, below). * * ** * * 2.1, pages 4-6 {COMMENTS: 1. My main comment on the section below is that I find it very distracting and bizarre to use the asterisk [*] to indicate a variable number of letters and numbers, for example 5*8 indicates 5 to 8 letters in a variant subtag beginning with a letter;I would prefer some other symbol-- 5 - 8; or 5-8 or 5to8?? Thanks.} Language-Tag = langtag ; normal language tags / privateuse ; private use tag / grandfathered ; grandfathered tags langtag = language ["-" script] ["-" region] *("-" variant) *("-" extension) ["-" privateuse] language = 2*3ALPHA ; shortest ISO 639 code ["-" extlang] ; sometimes followed by ; extended language subtags / 4ALPHA ; or reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; or registered language subtag Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 5] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 extlang = 3ALPHA ; selected ISO 639 codes *2("-" 3ALPHA) ; permanently reserved script = 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code region = 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166-1 code / 3DIGIT ; UN M.49 code variant = 5*8alphanum ; registered variants / (DIGIT 3alphanum) extension = singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum)) ; Single alphanumerics ; "x" reserved for private use singleton = %x41-57 ; a - w / %x59-5A ; y - z / %x61-77 ; A - W / %x79-7A ; Y - Z / DIGIT ; 0 - 9 privateuse = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) grandfathered = irregular ; non-redundant tags registered / regular ; during the RFC 3066 era irregular = "en-GB-oed" ; irregular tags do not match / "i-ami" ; the 'langtag' production and / "i-bnn" ; would not otherwise be / "i-default" ; considered 'well-formed' / "i-enochian" ; These tags are all valid, / "i-hak" ; but most are deprecated / "i-klingon" ; in favor of more modern / "i-lux" ; subtags or subtag / "i-mingo" ; combination / "i-navajo" / "i-pwn" / "i-tao" / "i-tay" / "i-tsu" / "sgn-BE-FR" / "sgn-BE-NL" / "sgn-CH-DE" Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 6] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 regular = "art-lojban" ; these tags match the 'langtag' / "cel-gaulish" ; production, but their subtags / "no-bok" ; are not extended language / "no-nyn" ; or variant subtags: their meaning / "zh-guoyu" ; is defined by their registration / "zh-hakka" ; and all of these are deprecated / "zh-min" ; in favor of a more modern / "zh-min-nan" ; subtag or sequence of subtags / "zh-xiang" alphanum = (ALPHA / DIGIT) ; letters and numbers Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF * * * * * * 2.1, p. 6, par 5 There is a subtlety in the ABNF production 'variant': {COMMENTS: 1. ??? Do you need this comment about 'subtlety'?; the information that follows this--see below--is sufficient!}> {NULL, nothing here needed.} * * * * * * a variant starting with a digit has a minimum length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have a minimum length of five characters. {COMMENT: 1. If you delete the sentence above, beginning, "There is a subtlety . . . ," then make the 'a' upper case.} > A variant starting with a digit . . . * * * * * * 2.2. Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation p. 8, par 3 Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length and content restrictions. These make identification of the subtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when parsing tags simpler. {COMMENTS: 1. last sentence is awkward and wordy; change.} > This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to either the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry, and simplifies exception handling associated with the parsing of language tags. * * * * * * 2.2 p. 8, par 5 {CLARIFICATION?? NEED CLARIFICATION of the first sentence in the paragraph below: What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right? } Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. These sequences are introduced by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows: > Sequences of private use (excepting those sequences reserved for language subtags--ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz', those reserved for script subtags--ranging from 'Qaaa' to 'Qabx', and those reserved for region subtags--including 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-XZ', and 'ZZ') and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. * * * * * * 2.2.1. Primary Language Subtag, p. 10, par 1, item 5 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example of what such a registration might include: one of the grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- Latn" valid. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. { COMMENT: 1. A transition--such as "However," "The above notwithstanding," etc, is needed to go the second paragraph in item 5 above.} > However, at he time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. * * * * * * 2.2.1, p. 11, par. 6 {COMMENT/CLARIFICATION?: What is the reference for "these" in the first sentence of the paragraph below? I do not think "these" is needed; that is I do not think you need to refer back to a prior mention of these problems. } To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.prin]: > To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice ( (as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.prin]: * * * "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO 639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1. This is to ensure consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2 code for that language is not available." * * * 2.2.2. Extended Language Subtags; p. 11, par 1 {COMMENT: I think the fourth sentence of this paragraph should say "REQUIRED" not "RECOMMENDED;" this is not the sameas capitalization rules, which are simply recommendations; I assume that a language tag without a primary language subtag will not be parsed properly.}Extended language subtags are used to identify certain specially- selected languages that, for various historical and compatibility reasons, are closely identified with or tagged using an existing primary language subtag. Extended language subtags are always used with their enclosing primary language subtag (indicated with a 'Prefix' field in the registry) when used to form the language tag. All languages that have an extended language subtag in the registry also have an identical primary language subtag record in the registry. This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming the language tag. The following rules apply to the extended language subtags: > This primary language subtag is REQUIRED. {END OF SENTENCE.} * * ** * *2.2.2. p. 11; par 1; item 4.{ CLARIFICATIO?? Item 4 is confusing to me' does this mean that while 3 extended language subtags are permitted in theory, only one is permitted in fact?Or does this mean that three extended language subtags are permitted in fact when they have the same language subtag for a prefix & that they must all share that one prefix.Does this ever happen? It would be nice to clarify this in the draft.} Although the ABNF production 'extlang' permits up to three extended language tags in the language tag, extended language subtags MUST NOT include another extended language subtag in their Prefix. That is, the second and third extended language subtag positions in a language tag are permanently reserved and tags that include subtags in that position are invalid.* * * * * *2.2.2; page 12; par 2. For example, the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') encompasses a number of languages. For compatibility reasons, each of these languages has both a primary and extended language subtag in the registry. A few selected examples of these include Gan Chinese ('gan'), Cantonese Chinese ('yue') and Mandarin Chinese ('cmn'). Each is encompassed by the macrolanguage 'zh' (Chinese). Therefore, they each have the prefix "zh" in their registry records. Thus Gan Chinese is represented with tags beginning "zh-gan" or "gan"; Cantonese with tags beginning either "yue" or "zh-yue"; and Mandarin Chinese with "zh-cmn" or "cmn". The language subtag 'zh' can still be used without an extended language subtag to label a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese, while the primary language subtag ('gan', 'yue', 'cmn') is preferred to using the extended language form ("zh-gan", "zh-yue", "zh-cmn"). {CLARIFICATION??: are there ever instances where zh-cmn might be preferable? For example, with written Chinese, targeting primarily a Mandarin-speaking audience?}* * * * * * 2.2.3. Script Subtag; page 12; par 1; item 4. 4. There MUST be at most one script subtag in a language tag, and the script subtag SHOULD be omitted when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag or when the primary or extended language subtag's record in the subtag registry includes a 'Suppress-Script' field listing the applicable script subtag. For example: "sr-Latn" represents Serbian written using the Latin script. { COMMENT: I want to add a second example here that would not be appropriate, so it will be clearer to readers--might even prefer to replace the first example. Or is the ex. getting too detailed?}INSERT > The tag, "uk-Latn" similarly represents Ukrainian written in the Latin script. The tag, "uk", on the other hand, indicates Ukrainian written in Cyrillic script. On the other hand, the tag, "uk-Cyrl", is not a well-formed tag as a suppress-script of Cyrillic is registered for Ukrainian, and so the script subtag should not be used; the tag "uk" is all that is needed in this case. * * * * * * 2.2.4. Region Subtag; page 12; par 1; item 2 2. Two-letter region subtags were defined according to the assignments found in [ISO3166-1] ("Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or using assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. In addition, the codes that are "exceptionally reserved" (as opposed to "assigned") in ISO 3166-1 were also defined in the registry, with the exception of 'UK', which is an exact synonym for the assigned code 'GB'. {COMMENT: First, elsewhere you use the present tense with "defined;" these subtags are still so defined, right? If so I think the present tense is best, as you use it elsewhere.Second, I inserted "in the registry" after defined; it seems more explicit;Third, in the clause that begins "or using assignments," "using" appears to be in parallel to the word "using" in the phrase, "using the list of alpha-2 . . ."--because of the repetition of "using;" at least it sounds this way to my ear; but it's actually parallel grammatically and semantically to the clause that begins "according to"--so I changed "using" to "according to" to emphasize this parallelism} > 2. Two-letter region subtags are defined in the registry according to assignments found in [ISO3166-1] ("Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or according to assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. * * * * * * 2.2.4; page 13; par 1; item 4C C. When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one country or area to another country or area and that code already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for that country or area MUST be registered in the registry as described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which it is defined (rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code).{COMMENT: the wording is a bit confusing; insert "to which the code has been reassigned;" change the order a bit so that "rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code" is next to the info. on the U.N. numeric code. } > When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one country or area to another country or area and that code already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for the country or area to which the code has been reassigned--and not the recycled ISO 3166-1 code--MUST be registered in the registry as described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which it is defined.* * * * * * 2.2.5. Variant Subtags; p. 15; par 1,; item 1 Variant subtags are used to indicate additional, well-recognized variations that define a language or its dialects that are not covered by other available subtags. The following rules apply to the variant subtags: 1. Variant subtags MUST follow any primary language, extended language, script, or region subtags, and MUST precede any extension or private use subtag sequences {COMMENTS: again, I think you only mean those private-use subtags preceded by the singleton x; you might insert at end the following} INSERT > (again, private use subtags does not include those reserved codes 'qaa'- . . .). * * * * * * 2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example 9. In the event that more than one extension appears in a single tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Section 4.5. For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" {COMMENT: please correct the spelling of "extention." This you have to do I think.} > For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" * * * * * * 2.2.9; page 20; par 4 Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 20] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 reference [RFC3066]. A wider array of tags was considered 'well- formed' under that document. Any tags that were valid for use under RFC 3066 are both 'well-formed' and 'valid' under this document's syntax; only invalid or illegal tags were well-formed by the early definition but no longer are. The language tag syntax under RFC 3066 was: obs-language-tag = primary-subtag *( "-" subtag ) primary-subtag = 1*8ALPHA subtag = 1*8(ALPHA / DIGIT) Figure 2: RFC 3066 Language Tag Syntax {CLARIFICATION?: I'm still not clear as to what tags were well-formed but no longer are; I personally do not see the need of this comment; I guess though that you mean that these tags used subtags that were not in the registry but were otherwise well-formed??? If that's what you mean it's not clear.} * * * Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com --_c40828fd-14c1-49ef-bc05-82d433db1fd0_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi!

Regarding the draft  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 notesū  Section 2 Comments (I sent this as a whole; it is mostly editorial; I can however break it up into two or maybe three emails, one containing strictly editorial comments/corrections; and one containing requests for claridications.

I've just put in all my comments for Section 2 below; I had none on Section 1; I will have a few on Section 4.6; not sure about comments on other sections as I've not had time to go over those carefully.

Sorry for repeat of comments on section 2; I forgot about the private-use subtags 'Qaaa' - 'Qabx' that are reserved for script codes--in my editing of Section 2.2; so I fixed that & decided it best to send the whole corrections as a unit?? a

Whether or not you take my edits, I do think you need to make one change:


2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example
     


  
{COMMENT:  please correct the spelling of "extention.".}

> For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and
   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid
   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"

Thanks.

C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com 


* * *
2.1; Page 4; par 2.
   There are different types of subtag, each of which is distinguished
   by length, position in the tag, and content: each subtag's type can
   be recognized solely by these features.  This makes it possible to
   extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if
   the specific subtag values are not recog
 nized.  Thus, a language tag
   processor need not have a list of valid tags or subtags (that is, a
   copy of some version of the IANA Language Subtag Registry) in order
   to perform common searching and matching operations.  The only
   exceptions to this ability to infer meaning from subtag structure are
   the grandfathered tags listed in the productions 'regular' and
   'irregular' below.  These tags were registered under [RFC3066] and
   are a fixed list that can never change.
 
{COMMENTS:
1.  The above paragraph is a bit awkward, hard to read}
>  There are several/different types of subtags.  A subtag's length and position in the language tag, as well as its content, serves to distinguish its subtag type.  Thus it is possible to extract f
 rom and assign to the subtag some semantic information, even when the subtag's specific value is not recognized. Because of this, a language tag processor need not have a list of all valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of the IANA Language Subtag Registry), in order to perform common searching and matching operations on the tag.  Exceptions are the 'regular' and 'irregular' grandfathered tags, listed below.  Semantic information cannot be extracted from the individual subtags that compose the grandfathered language tags because these tags are only interpretable only as wholes.  The order of and length of subtags that make up the 'irregular' grandfathered tags may in fact vary from the rules governing order and length of subtags specified in this document (see below).  It is therefore possible, in an irregular grandfathered language tag, to have a variant subtag composed of fewer than four characters or a subtag denoting a region preceding one denoting a language, as in, f
 or example, "sgn-BE-fr" (which denotes Belgian French sign language, the French language as used in Belgium).  The grandfathered tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. 
 
     
* * *
* * *
2.1; page 4; par. 3
The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC5234] is:
{COMMENTS:
1.  It is confusing to have the whole list that follows with no real introduction; what about a short definition of the syntax first?}
 
>  The language tag (referred to below as langtag) in ABNF [FRC5234] is composed of one (1) language (or macrolanguage?) subtag, followed by--in order--zero or one extended language subtag,
  zero or one script subtag, zero or one region subtag, sero or more variant subtags, and zero or more singletons (single character prefixes) for extension language subtags, with each singleton followed by one or more extension language subtags.
The language tag may be interrupted anywhere in the tag (including initial position) by private use subtags.  These are introduced by the singleton x.  The singleton x indicates that all content that follows is governed by private agreement only, and that its meaning and arrangement is not covered in this document (see section 2.2.7 and 4.6 below for more information on private use subtags).

Rules governing the length of the various types of subtags are specified below and in Section 2.2.
 
As noted above, grandfathered language tags are not governed by all of the above rules of syntax (for more on grandfathered tags, see 2.2.8, below).

* * *
* * *
2.1, pages 4-6
{COMMENTS:

1.  My main comment on the section below is that I find it very distracting and bizarre to use the asterisk [*] to indicate a variable number of letters and numbers, for example 5*8 indicates 5 to 8 letters in a variant subtag beginning with a letter;
I would prefer some other symbol-- 5 - 8; or 5-8 or 5to8??  Thanks.}
 Language-Tag  = langtag             ; normal language tags
               / privateuse          ; private use tag
               / grandfathered       ; grandfathered tags

 langtag       = language
                 ["-" script]
                 ["-" region]
                 *("-" variant)
                 *("-" extension)
                 ["-" privateuse]

 language      = 2*3ALPHA            ; shortest ISO 639 code
                 ["-" extlang]       ; sometimes followed
  by
                                     ;   extended language subtags
               / 4ALPHA              ; or reserved for future use
               / 5*8ALPHA            ; or registered language subtag




Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                  [Page 5]
 
Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008


 extlang       = 3ALPHA              ; selected ISO 639 codes
                 *2("-" 3ALPHA)      ; permanently reserved

 script        = 4ALPHA              ; ISO 15924 code

 region        = 2ALPHA              ; ISO 3166-1 code
               / 3DIGIT            
   ; UN M.49 code

 variant       = 5*8alphanum         ; registered variants
               / (DIGIT 3alphanum)

 extension     = singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum))

                                     ; Single alphanumerics
                                     ; "x" reserved for private use
 singleton     = %x41-57             ; a - w
               / %x59-5A             ; y - z
               / %x61-77             ; A - W
               / %x79-7A             ; Y - Z
               / DIGIT               ; 0 - 9


 privateuse    = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum))

 grandfathered = irregular           ; non-redundant tags registered
               / regular             ;   during the RFC 3066 era


 irregular     = "en-GB-oed"         ; irregular tags do not match
               / "i-ami"             ; the 'langtag' production and
               / "i-bnn"           
   ; would not otherwise be
               / "i-default"         ; considered 'well-formed'
               / "i-enochian"        ; These tags are all valid,
               / "i-hak"             ; but most are deprecated
               / "i-klingon"         ; in favor of more modern
               / "i-lux"             ; subtags or subtag
               / "i-mingo"           ; combination
               / "i-navajo"
               / "i-pwn"
               / "i-tao"
               / "i-tay"
               / "i-tsu"
               / "sgn-BE-FR"
               / "sgn-BE-NL"
               / "sgn-CH-DE"






Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                  [Page 6]
 
Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008


 regular       = "art-lojban"        ; these tags match the 'langtag'
               / "cel-gaulish"       ; production, but their subtags
               / "no-bok"            ; are not extended language
               / "no-nyn"            ; or variant subtags: their meaning
               / "zh-guoyu"          ; is defined by their registration
               / "zh-hakka"          ; and all of these are deprecated
               / "zh-min"            ; in favor of a more modern
               / "zh-min-nan"        ; subtag or sequence of subtags
               / "zh-xiang"

 alphanum      = (ALPHA / DIGIT)     ; letters and numbers

                        Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF
* * *
* * *
2.1, p. 6, par 5
The
 re is a subtlety in the ABNF
   production 'variant': 

{COMMENTS:
1.  ???  Do you need this comment about 'subtlety'?; the information that follows this--see below--is sufficient!}
> {NULL, nothing here needed.}
* * *
* * *
a variant starting with a digit has a minimum
   length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have a
   minimum length of five characters.

{COMMENT:
1.  If you delete the sentence above, beginning, "There is a subtlety . . . ," then make the 'a' upper case.}

> A variant starting with a digit . . . 


* * *

* * *



2.2.  Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation

 
p. 8, par 3


    Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length
   and content restrictions.  These make identification of the subtag's
   type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is
   unrecognized.  This allows tags to be parsed and processed without
   reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the
   IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when
   parsing tags simpler.

{COMMENTS:

1.  last sentence is awkward and wordy; change.}

> This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to either the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry, and simplifies exception handling associated with the parsing of language tags.

* * *
 

* * *
2.2 p. 8, par 5

{CLARIFICATION??
NEED CLARIFICATION of the first sentence in the paragraph below:

What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from '
 qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' 
These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right?
}
 
  Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end
   of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags
   defined elsewhere in this document.  These sequences are introduced
   by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows:

> Sequences of private use (excepting those sequences reserved for language subtags--ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz', those reserved for script subtags--ranging from 'Qaaa' to 'Qabx', and those reserved for region subtags--including 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-XZ', and 'ZZ') and extension subtags
MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document.

* * *



* * *


 
2.2.1.  Primary Language Subtag, p. 10, par 1, item 5




   5.  Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA
       registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5
       and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  An example
       of what such a registration might include: one of the
       grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian".  The subtag
       'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary
       language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this
       language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian-
       Latn" valid.

       At the time this document was created, t
 here were no examples of
       this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
       discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
       registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/
       RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered
       with IANA.

{ COMMENT:
1.  A transition--such as "However," "The above notwithstanding," etc, is needed to go the second paragraph in item 5 above.}

> However, at 
he time this document was created, there were no examples of
       this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
       discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
       registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/
       RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered
       with IANA.

* * *
 

* * *
2.2.1, p. 11, par. 6



{COMMENT/CLARIFICATION?:

What is the 
 reference for "these" in the first sentence of the paragraph below?
I do not think "these" is needed; that is I do not think you need to refer back to a prior mention of these problems.
}
   To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as
   experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as
   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this
   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee
   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in
   [iso639.prin]:

> To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice (
(as
   experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as
   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this
   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee
   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in
   [iso639.prin]:

* * *
      "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO
      639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1.  This is to ensure
      consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in
      Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2
      code for that language is not available."
 
* * * 

2.2.2.  Extended Language Subtags; p. 11, par 1
 
{COMMENT:  I think the fourth sentence of this paragraph should say "REQUIRED" not "RECOMMENDED;" this is not the same
as capitalization rules, which are simply recommendations; I assume that a language tag without a primary language subtag will not be parsed properly.}
Extended language subtags are used to identify certain specially-
   selected languages that, for various historical and compatibility
   reasons, are closely identified with or tagged using an existing
   primary language subtag.  Extended language subtags are always used
   with their enclosing primary language subtag (indicated with a
  
  'Prefix' field in the registry) when used to form the language tag.
   All languages that have an extended language subtag in the registry
   also have an identical primary language subtag record in the
   registry.  This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming
   the language tag.  The following rules apply to the extended language
   subtags:
> This primary language subtag is REQUIRED. 
 
{END OF SENTENCE.}
 
* * *
* * *
2.2.2. p. 11; par 1; item 4.
{ CLARIFICATIO??  Item 4 is confusing to me' does this mean that while 3 extended language subtags are permitted in theory, only one is permitted in fact?
Or does this mean that three extended language subtags are permitted in fact when they have the same language subtag for a prefix & that they must all share that one prefix.
Does this ever happen?   It would be nice to clarify this in the draft.}


 Although the ABNF production 'extlang' permits up to three
       extended language tags in the language tag, extended language
       subtags MUST NOT include another extended language subtag in
       their Prefix.  That is, the second and third extended language
       subtag positions in a language tag are permanently reserved and
       tags that include subtags in that position are inv
 alid.
* * *
* * *
2.2.2; page 12; par 2.



   For example, the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') encompasses a number of
   languages.  For compatibility reasons, each of these languages has
   both a primary and extended language subtag in the registry.  A few
   selected examples of these include Gan Chinese ('gan'), Cantonese
   Chinese ('yue') and Mandarin Chinese ('cmn').  Each is encompassed by
   the macrolanguage 'zh' (Chinese).  Therefore, they each have the
   prefix "zh" in their registry records.  Thus Gan Chinese is
   represented with tags beginning "zh-gan" or "gan"; Cantonese with
   tags beginning either "yue" or "zh-yue"; and Mandarin Chinese with
   "zh-cmn" or "cm
 n".  The language subtag 'zh' can still be used
   without an extended language subtag to label a resource as some
   unspecified variety of Chinese, while the primary language subtag
   ('gan', 'yue', 'cmn') is preferred to using the extended language
   form ("zh-gan", "zh-yue", "zh-cmn").
 
{CLARIFICATION??:  are there ever instances where zh-cmn might be preferable?  For example, with written Chinese, targeting primarily a Mandarin-speaking audience?}
* * *

* * *
2.2.3.  Script Subtag; page 12; par 1; item 4.


   4.  There MUST be at most one script subtag in a language tag, and
       the script subtag SHOULD be omitted when it adds no
       distinguishing value to the tag or when the primary or extended
       language subtag's record in the subt
 ag registry includes a
       'Suppress-Script' field listing the applicable script subtag.

   For example: "sr-Latn" represents Serbian written using the Latin
   script.  
{ COMMENT:  I want to add a second example here that would not be appropriate, so it will be clearer to readers--might even prefer to replace the first example.  Or is the ex. getting too detailed?}
INSERT > The tag, "uk-Latn" similarly represents Ukrainian written in the Latin script.  The tag, "uk", on the other hand, indicates Ukrainian written in Cyrillic script.  On the other hand, the tag, "uk-Cyrl", is not a well-formed tag as a suppress-script of Cyrillic is registered for Ukrainian, and so the script subtag should not be used; 
the tag "uk" is all that is needed in this case. 
* * * 
* * *



2.2.4. Region Subtag; page 12; par 1; item 2

   


   2.  Two-letter region subtags were defined according to the
       assignments found in [ISO3166-1] ("Codes for the representation
       of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country
       codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or using
       assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance
       agency or governing standardization bodies.  In addition, the
       codes that are "exceptionally reserved" (as opposed to
       "assigned") in ISO 3166-1 were also defined in the registry, with
       the exception of '
 UK', which is an exact synonym for the assigned
       code 'GB'.

{COMMENT:  
First,  elsewhere you use the present tense with "defined;" these subtags are still so defined, right?  If so I think the present tense is best, as you use it elsewhere.
Second,  I inserted "in the registry" after defined; it seems more explicit;
Third,  in the clause that begins "or using assignments," "using" appears to be in parallel to the word "using" in the phrase, "using the list of alpha-2 . . ."--because of the repetition of "using;" at least it sounds this way to my ear; but it's actually parallel grammatically and semantically to the clause that begins "according to"--so I changed "using" to "according to" to emphasize this parallelism
}

> 2.  Two-letter region subtags are defined in the registry according to assignments found in [ISO3166-1] ("Codes for the representation
       of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country
       codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or according to
       assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance
       agency or governing standardization bodies. 
* * *
 

 
* * *
  
2.2.4; page 13; par 1; item 4C
     C.  When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one
           country or area to another country or area and that code
           already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for
           that country or area MUST be registered in the registry as
           described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language
           tags that represent the country or region for which it is
           defined (rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code).
{COMMENT:  the wording is a bit confusing; insert "to which the code has been reassigned;" change the order a bit so that "rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code" is next to
the info. on the U.N. numeric code. }
 
> When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one
           country or area to another country or area and that code
           already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for
           the country or area to which the code has been reassigned--and not the recycled ISO 3166-1 code--MUST be registered in the registry as
           described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language
           tags that represent the country or region for which it is
           defined.
* * *

* * *


2.2.5.  Variant Subtags; p. 15; par 1,; item 1

   Variant subtags are used to indicate additional, well-recognized
   variations that define a language or its dialects that are not
   covered by other available subtags.  The following rules apply to the
   variant subtags:

   1.  Variant subtags MUST follow any primary language, extended
       language, script, or region subtags, and MUST precede any
       extension or private use subtag sequences 
{COMMENTS: again, I think you only mean those private-use subtags preceded by the singleton x; you might insert at end the following}
INSERT > (agai
 n, private use subtags does not include those reserved codes 'qaa'- . . .).

* * *
   
* * *
2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example
     




   9.  In the event that more than one extension appears in a single
       tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Section 4.5.

   For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and
   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid
   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"

{COMMENT:  please correct the spelling of "extention."  This you have to do I think.}

> 
   For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and
   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a val
 id
   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"

* * *





* * *
2.2.9; page 20; par 4 
Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                 [Page 20]
 
Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008


   reference [RFC3066].  A wider array of tags was considered 'well-
   formed' under that document.  Any tags that were valid for use under
   RFC 3066 are both 'well-formed' and 'valid' under this document's
   syntax; only invalid or illegal tags were well-formed by the early
   definition but no longer are.  The language tag syntax under RFC 3066
   was:

       obs-language-tag = primary-subtag *( "-" subtag )
       primary-subtag   = 1*8ALPHA
       subtag           = 1*8(ALPHA / DIGIT)

                  Figure 2: RFC 3066 Language Tag Syntax


{CLARIFICATION?:  I'm still not clear as to what tags were well-formed but no longer are; I personally do not see the need of this comment; I guess though that you mean that these
tags used subtags that were not in the registry but were otherwise well-formed???  If that's what you mean it's not clear.} 
* * *


Best,

C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

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Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=E2=80=8F?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1263323662==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1263323662== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC14EXSEA5Dantama_" --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC14EXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQpDQoNCkkgZmluZCB0aGUgY29tbWVudHMgSSBjYW4gcmVhZCB0byBiZSBlZGl0 b3JpYWwgaW4gbmF0dXJlIG9yIHdyb25nIGFsdG9nZXRoZXIuIEFsYXMsIG11Y2ggb2YgdGhlIGRv 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0DC383A69AA; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:17:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234543A68DB for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:17:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.005 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.005 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.593, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N66xKSaRjw4j for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:17:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93F53A69AA for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:17:56 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,706,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="169998048" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 05:17:52 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB35HnVE023604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:17:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:17:49 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Randy Presuhn Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:17:47 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 4.1 capitalization Thread-Index: Ack+x95LmxStxAPdTeaMnEZI2doWZwWPoXsg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC19@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <243301c93cd1$42789540$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20811041353t36387d4dv282e1df5d9833ea4@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: 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ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2911C3A68DB; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BB4F3A68DB for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zTJOeUYY55kb for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634263A67AC for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:32 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,706,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="148716262" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 05:20:21 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB35KKIL026979 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:20:21 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:16 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:14 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 propageted subtag churn Thread-Index: Ack82GMXCpgWwx1bRreyIqPX3A2MlwYLlS0g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC1D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <2ed201c93cd8$580820e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <2ed201c93cd8$580820e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 propageted subtag churn X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) I fixed this (I'm not ignoring the lengthy other comment Randy submitted. I'm just not responding to it in this message) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > (BTW, there is an editorial "the a" to be fixed in 3.4.14) > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 2 21:21:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC3D3A69E6; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:21:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C2E3A69E6 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:21:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JEa6XnfwXM31 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:21:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ED4D3A69D6 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:50 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,706,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="148716344" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 05:20:46 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB35Kk1J022761; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:20:46 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:46 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:20:45 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 Thread-Index: Ack809cQZenxPM8SS92Uib8VK4rO6gYMwHZg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC1E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <298101c93cd3$d94036c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) This was not incorporated per discussion elsewhere. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 2:15 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 section 3.1.7 > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > > In section 3.1.7 > Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred in certain > contexts. > For example, both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java > programming > language, but "he" is converted on input to "iw", which is thus > the > canonical form in Java. > > This example of a programming environment idosyncracy isn't helpful. > Suggest deleting it, as what is "preferred" isn't an application of > the BCP. > > Very minor. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 2 21:23:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 555FE3A69FE; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 529C23A69FE for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.297, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z-HU1q8ltUuL for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CBD63A69D6 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:09 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,706,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="93389373" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 05:23:04 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB35N3Wp002222 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:23:03 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:03 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:23:01 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 CLDR example Thread-Index: Ack80LNoC0KH49z+SQG7m3CMrvKg1wYNm6Qg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC21@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <242d01c93cd0$b6efc200$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <242d01c93cd0$b6efc200$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 CLDR example X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat) Since we already reference (informatively) UTS#35, I added a reference here. Yes, it is slightly gratuitous. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 1:52 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 CLDR example > > Hi - > > As a technical contribtor... > > Page 61 currently cites CLDR in an example, but > gives no reference. Remove the example (my > preference) or add the informational reference. > > Stupendously minor. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 2 21:24:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66FB83A6A00; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:24:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2788E3A684D for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:24:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.198, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b6DOUoQ6AqYO for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:24:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D9D3A6A00 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:24:11 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,706,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="170000110" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 05:24:07 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB35O66W003478 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 05:24:06 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:24:06 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:24:04 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 Thread-Index: Ack8/vyhFjFZiEh7QcmG1YAjHRENxwYCFkvA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAC23@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 broken sentence on pages 25-26 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KGVkaXRvciBoYXQpDQoNCkZpeGVkLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9u IEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVh dHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2Fn ZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNl c0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24NCj4gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERvdWcgRXdlbGwNCj4gU2VudDogU3VuZGF5LCBO b3ZlbWJlciAwMiwgMjAwOCA3OjIzIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4gU3Vi amVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSByZmM0NjQ2YmlzLTE4IGJyb2tlbiBzZW50ZW5jZSBvbiBwYWdlcyAy NS0yNg0KPiANCj4gUmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1p bmRzcHJpbmcgZG90IGNvbT4NCj4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiA+IHBhZ2UgMjUvMjY6DQo+ID4gICAg ICAqICBQcmVmaXgncyBmaWVsZC1ib2R5IGNvbnRhaW5zIGEgImVudGVuZGVkIGxhbmd1YWdlIHJh bmdlIg0KPiA+ICAgICAgICAgKGJhc2ljYWxseSwgYSBjb2xsZWN0aW9uIG9mIHN1YnRhZ3MsIHNl ZSBbUkZDNDY0N10pIHdoaWNoDQo+ID4gICAgICAgICBTSE9VTEQgYmUgdXNlZCB3aXRoIHRoaXMg c3VidGFnIHdoZW4gZm9ybWluZyBsYW5ndWFnZSB0YWcuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBUaGUgZW5kIG9mIHRo ZSBzZW50ZW5jZSBpcyBicm9rZW4gLSBzdWdnZXN0DQo+ID4gcmVwbGFjaW5nICJ3aGVuIGZvcm1p bmcgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFnIiB3aXRoDQo+ID4gIndoZW4gdXNpbmcgaXQgdG8gZm9ybSBhIGxhbmd1 YWdlIHRhZyINCj4gPg0KPiA+IFRoaXMgaXMgaW5jcmVkaWJseSBtaW5vci4NCj4gDQo+IEV2ZW4g bW9yZSBtaW5vciBpcyB0aGUgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb24gdGhhdCAiZW50ZW5kZWQiIGluIHRoZSBjaXRl ZA0KPiBleGFtcGxlDQo+IHNob3VsZCBiZSAiZXh0ZW5kZWQsIiB1bmxlc3MsIG9mIGNvdXJzZSwg dGhlIHdvcmQgd2FzIGNob3Nlbg0KPiBlbnRlbnRpb25hbGx5Lg0KPiANCj4gSSdtIHByZXR0eSBz dXJlIEkgcmVwb3J0ZWQgdGhpcyBvbmUgYmVmb3JlLg0KPiANCj4gLS0NCj4gRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAg KiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0DQo+IGh0 dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVy cy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbA0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YNCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcg bGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v bHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 2 21:30:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 633EB3A6A2F; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 240EC3A6A2F; Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:30:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:30:02 -0800 (PST) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt Pages : 87 Date : 2008-12-02 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-12-02212841.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 2 22:04:17 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FFD33A695B; 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Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:10:30 -0800 From: Addison Phillips To: Alfred =?roman8?q?H=CEnes?= Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 22:10:29 -0700 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.51 (KDE/4.0.4; ; ) References: <200811191555.QAA07331@TR-Sys.de> In-Reply-To: <200811191555.QAA07331@TR-Sys.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200812022110.30487.addison@inter-locale.com> X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 22:04:16 -0800 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 ABNF flaw X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="roman8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org RGVhciBIZXJyIEhvZW5lcywKClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBjb21tZW50LiBJJ20gc29ycnkg bm90IHRvIGhhdmUgcmVzcG9uZGVkIGVhcmxpZXI6IEkndmUgYmVlbiAKYXdheSBmb3IgdGhlIChs b2NhbCB0aGUgdG8gVVNBKSBob2xpZGF5LiBUaGUgY29tbWVudHMgaW4gZHJhZnQtMTggKGluZGVl ZCwgZm9yIAp0aGUgd2hvbGUgc2VyaWVzIG9mIGRyYWZ0cykgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIGZsYXdlZCBpbiB0 aGlzIHdheS4gSSBoYXZlIGNvcnJlY3RlZCAKdGhlbSBmb3IgZHJhZnQtMTkuIFRoYW5rcyBmb3Ig cG9pbnRpbmcgb3V0IHRoZSBlcnJvci4KCkJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywKCkFkZGlzb24KCk9uIFdlZG5l c2RheSAxOSBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDA4IDA3OjU1OjA1IHlvdSB3cm90ZToKPiBIZWxsbywKPiBzdGFy dGluZyB0byBzdHVkeSB0aGUgbGF0ZXN0IHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhlIDQ2NDZiaXMgZHJhZnQKPiBl ZGl0ZWQgYnkgeW91LCBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NmJpcy0xOCwgSSBmb3VuZCBhIHN0cmlr aW5nCj4gYW5kIGNvbmZ1c2luZyBmbGF3IGluIHRoZSBBQk5GIGNvbW1lbnRzIGluIHNlY3Rpb24g Mi4xLgo+Cj4gKE5vdGU6Cj4gIFRoaXMgc2VlbXMgc28gaW1wb3J0YW50IHRoYXQgSSBpbW1lZGlh dGVseSBzZW5kIHRoaXMgbWVzc2FnZS4KPiAgSSdsbCBzZW5kIG1vcmUgY29tbWVudHMgc2hvdWxk IEkgc3R1bWJsZSBvdmVyIG1vcmUgZmxhd3MuKQo+Cj4KPiBUaGUgZHJhZnQgc2F5cyBpbiBTZWN0 aW9uIDIuMToKPiAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICB2ICAgdgo+ Cj4gfHNpbmdsZXRvbiAgICAgPSAleDQxLTU3ICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgYSAtIHcKPiB8ICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAvICV4NTktNUEgICAgICAgICAgICAgOyB5IC0gego+IHwgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8g JXg2MS03NyAgICAgICAgICAgICA7IEEgLSBXCj4gfCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLyAleDc5LTdBICAg ICAgICAgICAgIDsgWSAtIFoKPgo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gRElHSVQgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICA7IDAgLSA5Cj4KPiBIb3dldmVyLCB0aGUgdXBwZXJjYXNlIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgYXJlIGluIHRo ZSBsb3dlciBwYXJ0IG9mCj4gdGhlIEFTQ0lJIGNvZGUsIGFuZCB0aGUgbG93ZXJjYXNlIGNoYXJh Y3RlcnMgaW4gdGhlIHVwZXIgcGFydC4KPiBUaGVyZWZvcmUsIHRoZSBkcmFmdCBzaG91bGQgc2F5 LCBzd2FwcGluZyBsb3dlcmNhc2UgYW5kCj4gdXBwZXJjYXNlIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgaW4gdGhlIEFC Rk4gY29tbWVudDoKPgo+ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIHYg ICB2Cj4KPiB8c2luZ2xldG9uICAgICA9ICV4NDEtNTcgICAgICAgICAgICAgOyBBIC0gVwo+IHwg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIC8gJXg1OS01QSAgICAgICAgICAgICA7IFkgLSBaCj4gfCAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgLyAleDYxLTc3ICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgYSAtIHcKPiB8ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAvICV4Nzkt N0EgICAgICAgICAgICAgOyB5IC0gego+Cj4gICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLyBESUdJVCAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgIDsgMCAtIDkKPgo+IEZ1cnRoZXJtb3JlLCBpdCBtaWdodCBiZSBjb25zaWRlcmVkIHVz ZWZ1bCB0byBsaXN0IHRoZQo+IDxESUdJVD4gYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmUgKmZpcnN0Kiwgc3VjaCB0aGF0 IHRoZSBwb3NzaWJsZQo+Cj4gdmFsdWVzIG9mIDxzaW5nbGV0b24+IGdldCBsaXN0ZWQgaW4gYXNj ZW5kaW5nIG9yZGVyOgo+IHxzaW5nbGV0b24gICAgID0gRElHSVQgICAgICAgICAgICAgICA7IDAg LSA5Cj4gfCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLyAleDQxLTU3ICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgQSAtIFcKPiB8ICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAvICV4NTktNUEgICAgICAgICAgICAgOyBZIC0gWgo+IHwgICAgICAgICAgICAg IC8gJXg2MS03NyAgICAgICAgICAgICA7IGEgLSB3Cj4gfCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLyAleDc5LTdB ICAgICAgICAgICAgIDsgeSAtIHoKPgo+IEtpbmQgcmVnYXJkcywKPiAgIEFsZnJlZCBIzm5lcy4K CgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 08:15:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDAE23A68C3; 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03 Dec 2008 16:15:35 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB3GFYiM028925 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:15:35 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:15:31 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:15:24 -0800 Thread-Topic: Draft-19 posted... Thread-Index: AclVYllJjNrVmam+TmqJrdpKqzznnA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BEDAF0D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-cr-hashedpuzzle: YhE= AI9i BOBW CEg8 CYhl DdA9 FDTZ FS6r F15e GYh+ IAxI IT87 J48U KKbx LyGS Lyvd; 1; bAB0AHIAdQBAAGkAZQB0AGYALgBvAHIAZwA=; Sosha1_v1; 7; {5CA9AC90-5514-4FF0-9484-6C5810A893F4}; YQBkAGQAaQBzAG8AbgBAAGEAbQBhAHoAbwBuAC4AYwBvAG0A; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:15:24 GMT; RAByAGEAZgB0AC0AMQA5ACAAcABvAHMAdABlAGQALgAuAC4A x-cr-puzzleid: {5CA9AC90-5514-4FF0-9484-6C5810A893F4} acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] Draft-19 posted... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I posted draft-19 officially last night. The various versions are also available on inter-locale now. WDiff: http://tinyurl.com/6ebjg5 HTML: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.html Text: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt XML : http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.xml Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 08:33:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A60D23A6B82; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE55A3A6B80 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:33:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.082 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.082 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.083, BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzzjML8Unc1T for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:33:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2E43A6B36 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:33:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=p2EiUo8fLpXNPQZ5BRqTJXRsIFFMiXg0HCgICsRKUFpxm1VeKtqjMgUkUmaQ0+oX; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.28.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L7ufK-0008Aq-Rv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 11:33:31 -0500 Message-ID: <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:33:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4a732c244c823bd8420aa33bec10d583c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.28.185 Subject: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... With http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-08.txt now available, we plan to hand these to our AD in the next few days for consideration by the IESG for publication as RFCs, replacing the current RFC 4645 and RFC 4646. If you spot a "show-stopper" technical problem in either of these, don't hesitate to post it to this list. For any other issues, I strongly suggest holding them for the IETF last call that will (I hope) soon follow. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 09:00:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7412A3A6B79; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:00:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7073A6B79 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:00:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.095 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.095 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_EXTNSN=2.3, MANGLED_PLEASE=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PoLwKusRqFDE for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:00:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s7.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s7.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.82]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDB73A6886 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:59:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W37 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s7.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 08:59:51 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:59:51 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2008 16:59:51.0912 (UTC) FILETIME=[8EE54680:01C95568] Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=FE=FE?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0086426488==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0086426488== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_0697cd14-c2f3-46c9-b79f-a59cac7108cc_" --_0697cd14-c2f3-46c9-b79f-a59cac7108cc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi. My comments are all editorial in fact; I do not think they are wrong; almost all were attempts to write the draft more clearly.As for the page numbers, I really do not have much time to read the draft online, so I pasted a copy of the text into notepad and printed it and somehow assumed the page numbers to be at the bottom of each page. So the page numbers are one page off (just add one to each). I also provided you with the section numbers and the paragraph number within each section. Most of my edits were requests for clarification; I shortened pagaraph 2 in section 2.1; I found a case where two clauses appeared to be in parallel because of word choice and were not. The white space is awful & I can't read it either; I'll try sending the comments again and also cc-ing you. As I said, whether or not you take my comments, you need to correct a misspelling of the word "extension" as "extention": 2.2.6; Page 18 (sorry I said p. 17); par 1; item 9; Example {COMMENT: ple ase correct the spelling of "extention.".}> For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"Best, C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com From: addison@amazon.comTo: cewcathar@hotmail.com; ltru@ietf.orgDate: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:15:08 -0800Subject: RE: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call commentsū (editor hat) I find the comments I can read to be editorial in nature or wrong altogether. Alas, much of the document below was rendered to whitespace by the mailer, so I can’t examine it. I have examined Page 18 (which I believe you mean below, as page numbers are at the BOTTOM of each page, not the top). Not being able to see your comment, I interpolate that you mean that the item probably could be more direct and I have made it clearer. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 --_0697cd14-c2f3-46c9-b79f-a59cac7108cc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi.

 
My comments are all editorial in fact; I do not think they are wrong; almost all were attempts to write the draft more clearly.
As for the page numbers, I really do not have much time to read the draft online, so I pasted a copy of the text into notepad and printed it and somehow assumed the page numbers to be at the bottom of each page.  So the page numbers are one page off (just add one to each).  I also provided you with the section numbers and the paragraph number within each section.
 
Most of my edits were requests for clarification; I shortened pagaraph 2 in section 2.1; I found a case where two clauses appeared to be in parallel because of word choice and were not.
 
The white space is awful & I can't read it either; I'll try sending the comments again and also cc-ing you.
 
As I said, whether or not you take my comments, you  need to correct a misspelling of the word "ext ension" as "extention":



 
2.2.6; Page 18 (sorry I said p. 17); par 1; item 9; Example
     


  
{COMMENT:  please correct the spelling of "extention.".}

> For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and
   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid
   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"

Best,
 
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 

From: addison@amazon.com
To: cewcathar@hotmail.com; ltru@ietf.org
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 21:15:08 -0800
Subject: RE: [Ltru] 13th-hour WG Last Call commentsū


(editor hat)

 

I find the comments I can read to be editorial in nature or wrong altogether. Alas, much of the document below was rendered to whitespace by the mailer, so I can’t examine it.  I have examined Page 18 (which I believe you mean below, as page numbers are at the BOTTOM of each page, not the top). Not being able to see your comment, I interpolate that you mean that the item probably could be more direct and I have made it clearer.

 

Addison

 

Addison Phillips

Globalization Architect -- Lab126

--_0697cd14-c2f3-46c9-b79f-a59cac7108cc_-- --===============0086426488== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0086426488==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 09:25:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 705E63A6B37; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:25:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCBEA3A6844 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:25:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cE8VnsLIc4GZ for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:24:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f11.google.com (mail-qy0-f11.google.com [209.85.221.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94863A67ED for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:24:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so4340227qyk.13 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:24:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=HIi/vZatCvz+0nnfeg1boR6HBXYxJzAfxFoUjopKtLE=; b=bloip2N5Lpt4B8QpLg16t+UizVInTa71CVPg3vgaA0jHboK1DQLJe9skixpneKYV2L QY6+oY4T09f2sGiMofrYwVndO4GlI+2shaB/V55WcVJ+KDxRTI8UeIIknBV/cfMo7aPi ulBWW0hHkgpb2KdA47+mCQk6nkZjGg5Uze5vY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=FMEEBP28klgNu06U+r9GPNasNBe39HG/FDgpAFovUiHuzrk2bHixsdzxk0bYf3Hw00 zJByetLxfjCdNGOKpw13Z/XipJ/aJ2uIn5aZ7QPgjgTr+gqDu/9zFEakppxlymu7KIqq e3lqRvDwVcVmbEEvkDKAtROA1xG6PL4Fy0l5E= Received: by 10.143.39.16 with SMTP id r16mr5483046wfj.172.1228325092957; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 09:24:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:24:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:24:52 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" , "Addison Phillips" , "Martin Duerst" In-Reply-To: <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: dc17910dddd93e45 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0160167455==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0160167455== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31619_6534603.1228325092940" ------=_Part_31619_6534603.1228325092940 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Unfortunately, there was a major omission in draft #19. See my email of Nov 4 on the topic "[Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage" responding to Addison's proposed text. Since there was no objection raised to my suggested text, I'd assumed that it was going to be used. I suspect this was just an oversight, but the technical issues are real. Here is a repeat of my message. I didn't find a draft-19 version at http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.html There are a number of textual problems with the proposed text: Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a collection of subtags, see ) which SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a ' Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is not. Most of these were present before your latest suggestion: - The suggested text ("The subtags in the prefix MUST appear...") in the second line is not consistent with the SHOULD of the first line. That is, we can't say "The subtags in the prefixMUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record." if it is only a SHOULD that the prefix be used with the subtag at all! - The wording is also awkward, since it suggests that the subtags are appearing in order in the Prefix's *record* instead of in a language tag. - Also, the gloss "basically a collection of subtags" is a bit funny, since it is not a collection: I'd expect something like {abc, def, ghi} if that were the case. Since they are linked with "-", they are actually ordered. - The use of extended language range, surprisingly, does *not* eliminate syntactically invalid Prefixes! - And now that we are excluding the *, and with the fact that it doesn't help with the syntax, just the use of "extended language range" is now useless. - The wording also requires that *each* prefix SHOULD be used, instead of *at least one of* the Prefixes! My suggested revised text: Prefix's field-body contains a sequence of subtags separated by '-'. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant', and one of the following concatenations MUST be a well-formed language tag 1. prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body, or 2. "und-" + prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body For example, the Prefix "Latn-de" for the variant '1994' MUST NOT be registered, since neither "Latn-de-1994" nor "und-Latn-de-1994" are well-formed language tags. The prefix"Latn" could be registered for the variant '1994', since "und-Latn-1994" is well-formed. If a record contains any Prefix field, then any language tag containing the record's subtag SHOULD also contain the subtag(s) from at least one Prefix field. Where a language tag contains the prefix's subtag(s) and the record's subtag, those subtags SHOULD occur in that order in the language tag, although perhaps with intervening subtags. For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is not appropriate and SHOULD NOT be used. The variant '1994' has multiple prefix fields, where each prefix field has multiple subtags: "sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva",... A language tag containing '1994' SHOULD have all the subtags from at least one of these prefix fields, such as "sl-fonipa-rozaj-1994" or "sl-rozaj-biske- fonipa-1994" (the 'fonipa' subtag is added to show the use of optional intervening subtags). A language tag could contain subtags from multiple prefix fields, such as "sl-rozaj-biske-njiva-1994", although that should be avoided where the subtags are mutually exclusive. Mark On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 08:33, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As co-chair... > > With http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19.txt > and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-08.txt > now available, we plan to hand these to our AD in the next few days > for consideration by the IESG for publication as RFCs, replacing > the current RFC 4645 and RFC 4646. > > If you spot a "show-stopper" technical problem in either of these, > don't hesitate to post it to this list. For any other issues, I strongly > suggest holding them for the IETF last call that will (I hope) soon > follow. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_31619_6534603.1228325092940 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline PGRpdj48c3BhbiBjbGFzcz0iQXBwbGUtc3R5bGUtc3BhbiIgc3R5bGU9ImZvbnQtZmFtaWx5OiAm IzM5O1RpbWVzIE5ldyBSb21hbiYjMzk7OyBmb250LXNpemU6IDE2cHg7ICI+VW5mb3J0dW5hdGVs eSwgdGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgbWFqb3Igb21pc3Npb24gaW4gZHJhZnQgIzE5LiBTZWUgbXkgZW1haWwg b2YgTm92IDQgb24gdGhlIHRvcGljICZxdW90O1tMdHJ1XSByZmM0NjQ2YmlzLTE4ICZxdW90O25v dCBzdWl0YWJsZSZxdW90OyBwcmVmaXgmbmJzcDt1c2FnZSZxdW90OyByZXNwb25kaW5nIHRvIEFk ZGlzb24mIzM5O3MgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGV4dC4gU2luY2UgdGhlcmUgd2FzIG5vIG9iamVjdGlvbiBy YWlzZWQgdG8gbXkgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHRleHQsIEkmIzM5O2QgYXNzdW1lZCB0aGF0IGl0IHdhcyBn 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Received: from BLU109-W40 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s21.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:52:44 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:52:44 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Dec 2008 17:52:44.0488 (UTC) FILETIME=[F1E5F480:01C9556F] Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=FE=FE?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1941083330==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1941083330== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_0e701e4f-6ad4-4e98-b3d7-c8ccaf3b644c_" --_0e701e4f-6ad4-4e98-b3d7-c8ccaf3b644c_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi! Here again my comments on the draft http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 notesū. I think I got most of the whitespace out by reformatting this email as text and then formatting it again??? (Not sure; we'll see.) Each comment I've begun with and ended with 3 asterisks (* * *). Whether or not you take my edits, I do think you need to make one change:2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example (In my previous email I said this was on page 18 but it is on page 17 after all; sorry!) {COMMENT: please correct the spelling of "extention" in the paragraph below to "extension"} For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" Another important comment: SECTION 2.2.2. Extended Language Subtags; page 11; par 1; 2nd to last sentence {COMMENT: I think the fourth sentence of this paragraph should say "REQUIRED" not "RECOMMENDED" as I assume that a language tag without a primary language subtag will not be parsed properly}: This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming the language tag. REPLACE WITH > This primary language subtag is REQUIRED. Finally, I still have a request for clarification: What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right? All my comments on section 2 are below; I'm now working on section 3 (I would love a hard--printed that is--copy of the rest of this to go through too; the draft has gotten big and expensive to print!) Best,C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com * * *Section 2.1; Page 4; par 2. There are different types of subtag, each of which is distinguished by length, position in the tag, and content: each subtag's type can be recognized solely by these features. This makes it possible to extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if the specific subtag values are not recognized. Thus, a language tag processor need not have a list of valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of some version of the IANA Language Subtag Registry) in order to perform common searching and matching operations. The only exceptions to this ability to infer meaning from subtag structure are the grandfathered tags listed in the productions 'regular' and 'irregular' below. These tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. {COMMENTS: The above paragraph is a bit awkward, hard to read} REPLACE WITH > There are several/different types of subtags. A subtag's length and position in the language tag, as well as its content, serves to distinguish its subtag type. Thus it is possible to extract from and assign to the subtag some semantic information, even when the subtag's specific value is not recognized. Because of this, a language tag processor need not have a list of all valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of the IANA Language Subtag Registry), in order to perform common searching and matching operations on the tag. Exceptions are the 'regular' and 'irregular' grandfathered tags, listed below. Semantic information cannot be extracted from the individual subtags that compose the grandfathered language tags because these tags are only interpretable only as wholes. The order of and length of subtags that make up the 'irregular' grandfathered tags may in fact vary from the rules governing order and length of subtags specified in this document (see below) . It is therefore possible, in an irregular grandfathered language tag, to have a variant subtag composed of fewer than four characters or a subtag denoting a region preceding one denoting a language, as in, for example, "sgn-BE-fr" (which denotes Belgian French sign language, the French language as used in Belgium). The grandfathered tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change. * * ** * *Section 2.1; page 4; par. 3 The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC5234] is: . . . {COMMENTS:It is confusing to have the whole list that follows--that is, figure 1--with no real introduction; what about a short definition of the syntax first?} REPLACE WITH > The language tag (referred to below as langtag) in ABNF [FRC5234] is composed of one (1) language (or macrolanguage?) subtag, followed by--in order--zero or one extended language subtag, zero or one script subtag, zero or one region subtag, sero or more variant subtags, and zero or more singletons (single character prefixes) for extension language subtags, with each singleton followed by one or more extension language subtags.The language tag may be interrupted anywhere in the tag (including initial position) by private use subtags. These are introduced by the singleton x. The singleton x indicates that all content that follows is governed by private agreement only, and that its meaning and arrangement is not covered in this document (see section 2.2.7 and 4.6 below for more information on private us e subtags).Rules governing the length of the various types of subtags are specified below and in Section 2.2. As noted above, grandfathered language tags are not governed by all of the above rules of syntax (for more on grandfathered tags, see 2.2.8, below).* * ** * * Section 2.1, pages 4-6 {COMMENTS: My main comment on the section below is that I find it very distracting and bizarre to use the asterisk [*] to indicate a variable number of letters and numbers, for example 5*8 indicates 5 to 8 letters in a variant subtag beginning with a letter;I would prefer some other symbol-- 5 - 8; or 5-8 or 5to8?? Thanks.} Language-Tag = langtag ; normal language tags / privateuse ; private use tag / grandfathered ; grandfathered tags langtag = language ["-" script] ["-" region] *("-" variant) *("-" extension) ["-" privateuse] language = 2*3ALPHA ; shortest ISO 639 code ["-" extlang] ; sometimes followed by ; extended language subtags / 4ALPHA ; or reserved for future use / 5*8ALPHA ; or registered language subtagPhillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 5] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 extlang = 3ALPHA ; selected ISO 639 codes *2("-" 3ALPHA) ; permanently reserved script = 4ALPHA ; ISO 15924 code re gion = 2ALPHA ; ISO 3166-1 code / 3DIGIT ; UN M.49 code variant = 5*8alphanum ; registered variants / (DIGIT 3alphanum) extension = singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum)) ; Single alphanumerics ; "x" reserved for private use singleton = %x41-57 ; a - w / %x59-5A ; y - z / %x61-77 ; A - W / %x79-7A ; Y - Z / DIGIT ; 0 - 9 privateuse = "x" 1*("-" (1*8alphanum)) grandfathered = irregular ; non-redundant tags registered / regular ; during the RFC 3066 era irregular = "en-GB-oed" ; irregular tags do not match / "i-ami" ; the 'langtag' production and / "i-bnn" ; would not otherwise be / "i-default" ; considered 'well-formed' / "i-enochian" ; These tags are all valid, / "i-hak" ; but most are deprecated / "i-klingon" ; in favor of more modern / "i-lux" ; subtags or subtag / "i-mingo" ; combination / "i-navajo" / "i-pwn" / "i-tao" / "i-tay" / "i-tsu" / "sgn-BE-FR" / "sgn-BE-NL" / "sgn-CH-DE" Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 6]Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 regular = "art-lojban" ; these tags match the 'langtag' / "cel-gaulish" ; production, but their subtags / "no-bok" ; are not extended language / "no-nyn" ; or variant subtags: their meaning / "zh-guoyu" ; is defined by their registration / "zh-hakka" ; and all of these are deprecated / "zh-min" ; in favor of a more modern / "zh-min-nan" ; subtag or sequence of subtags / "zh-xiang" alphanum = (ALPHA / DIGIT) ; letters and numbers Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF * * ** * * Section 2.1; page 6, par 5There is a subtlety in the ABNF production 'variant': {COMMENTS: ??? Do you need this comment about 'subtlety'?; the information that follows this--see below--is sufficient!} REPLACE WITH > {NULL, nothing here needed.} * * * * * *a variant starting with a digit has a minimum length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have a minimum length of five characters. {COMMENT: If you delete the sentence above, beginning, "There is a subtlety . . . ," then make the 'a' upper case.} REPLACE WITH > A variant starting with a digit . . . * * * * * *Section 2.2. Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation; page 8, par 3 Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length and content restrictions. These make identification of the subtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when parsing tags simpler. {COMMENTS: last sentence is awkward and wordy; change.} REPLACE WITH > This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to either the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry, and simplifies exception handling associated with the parsing of language tags. * * * * * * Section 2.2; page 8; par 5 {CLARIFICATION??NEED CLARIFICATION of the first sentence in the paragraph below:What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right?} Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. These sequences are introduced by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows: REPLACE WITH > Sequences of private use (excepting those sequences reserved for language subtags--ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz', those reserved for script subtags--ranging from 'Qaaa' to 'Qabx', and those reserved for region subtags--including 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-XZ', and 'ZZ') and extension subtagsMUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. * * * * * * Section 2.2.1. Primary Language Subtag, p. 9, par 1, item 5 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example of what such a registration might include: one of the grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- Latn" valid. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. { COMMENT:A transition--such as "However," "The above notwithstanding," etc, is needed to go the second paragraph in item 5 above.} REPLACE WITH > However, at the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered with IANA. * * * * * * 2.2.1; p. 11; par. 6 {COMMENT/CLARIFICATION?:What is the reference for "these" in the first sentence of the paragraph below?I do not think "these" is needed; that is I do not think you need to refer back to a prior mention of these problems.} To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.prin]:> To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice ((as experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in [iso639.prin]: "A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO 639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1. This is to ensure consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2 code for that language is not available." REPLACE WITH > To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice . . . * * * * * * SECTION 2.2.2. Extended Language Subtags; page 11; par 1 {COMMENT: I think the fourth sentence of this paragraph should say "REQUIRED" not "RECOMMENDED;" this is not the sameas capitalization rules, which are simply recommendations; I assume that a language tag without a primary language subtag will not be parsed properly.} Extended language subtags are used to identify certain specially- selected languages that, for various historical and compatibility reasons, are closely identified with or tagged using an existing primary language subtag. Extended language subtags are always used with their enclosing primary language subtag (indicated with a 'Prefix' field in the registry) when used to form the language tag. All languages that have an extended language subtag in the registry also have an identical primary language subtag record in the registry. This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming the language tag. The following rules apply to the extended language subtags: REPLACE WITH > This primary language subtag is REQUIRED. {END OF SENTENCE.} * * ** * *2.2.2. p. 11; par 1; item 4. { CLARIFICATION?? Item 4 is confusing to me' does this mean that while 3 extended language subtags are permitted in theory, only one is permitted in fact?Or does this mean that three extended language subtags are permitted in fact when they have the same language subtag for a prefix & that they must all share that one prefix.Does this ever happen? It would be nice to clarify this in the draft.} Although the ABNF production 'extlang' permits up to three extended language tags in the language tag, extended language subtags MUST NOT include another extended language subtag in their Prefix. That is, the second and third extended language subtag positions in a language tag are permanently reserved and tags that include subtags in that position are invalid.* * ** * *2.2.2; page 12; par 2. For example, the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') encompasses a number of languages. For compatibility reasons, each of these languages has both a primary and extended language subtag in the registry. A few selected examples of these include Gan Chinese ('gan'), Cantonese Chinese ('yue') and Mandarin Chinese ('cmn'). Each is encompassed by the macrolanguage 'zh' (Chinese). Therefore, they each have the prefix "zh" in their registry records. Thus Gan Chinese is represented with tags beginning "zh-gan" or "gan"; Cantonese with tags beginning either "yue" or "zh-yue"; and Mandarin Chinese with "zh-cmn" or "cmn". The language subtag 'zh' can still be used without an extended language subtag to label a resource as some unspecified variety of Chinese, while the primary language subtag ('gan', 'yue', 'cmn') is preferred to using the extended language form ("zh-gan", "zh-yue", "zh-cmn").{CLARIFICATION??: are there ever instances where zh-cmn might be pref erable? For example, with written Chinese, targeting primarily a Mandarin-speaking audience?}* * * * * *2.2.3. Script Subtag; page 12; par 1; item 4. 4. There MUST be at most one script subtag in a language tag, and the script subtag SHOULD be omitted when it adds no distinguishing value to the tag or when the primary or extended language subtag's record in the subtag registry includes a 'Suppress-Script' field listing the applicable script subtag. For example: "sr-Latn" represents Serbian written using the Latin script. { COMMENT: I want to add a second example here that would not be appropriate, so it will be clearer to readers--might even prefer to replace the first example. Or is the ex. getting too detailed?} INSERT > The tag, "uk-Latn" similarly represents Ukrainian written in the Latin script. The tag, "uk", on the other hand, indicates Ukrainian written in Cyrillic script. On the other hand, the tag, "uk-Cyrl", is not a well-formed tag as a suppress-script of Cyrillic is registered for Ukrainian, and so the script subtag should not be used; the tag "uk" is all that is needed in this case. * * * * * *2.2.4. Region Subtag; page 13; par 1; item 2 2. Two-letter region subtags were defined according to the assignments found in {ISO3155-1] ("Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or using assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. In addition, the codes that are "exceptionally reserved" (as opposed to "assigned") in ISO 3166-1 were also defined in the registry, with the exception of 'UK', which is an exact synonym for the assigned code 'GB'. {COMMENT: First, elsewhere you use the present tense with "defined;" these subtags are still so defined, right? If so I think the present tense is best, as you use it elsewhere.Second, I inserted "in the registry" after defined; it seems more explicit;Third, in the clause that begins "or using assignments," "using" appears to be in parallel to the word "using" in the phrase, "using the list of alpha-2 . . ."--because of the repetition of "using;" at least it sounds this way to my ear; but it's actually parallel grammatically and semantically to the clause that begins "according to"--so I changed "using" to "according to" to emphasize this parallelism} REPLACE WITH > 2. Two-letter region subtags are defined in the registry according to assignments found in [ISO3166-1] ("Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or according to assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance agency or governing standardization bodies. * * ** * *2.2.4; page 14; par 1; item 4C C. When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one country or area to another country or area and that code already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for that country or area MUST be registered in the registry as described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which it is defined (rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code). {COMMENT: the wording is a bit confusing; insert "to which the code has been reassigned;" change the order a bit so that "rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code" is next tothe info. on the U.N. numeric code. } REPLACE WITH > When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one country or area to another country or area and that code already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for the country or area to which the code has been reassigned--and not the recycled ISO 3166-1 code--MUST be registered in the registry as described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language tags that represent the country or region for which it is defined.* * * * * *Section 2.2.5 Variant Subtags; p. 15; par 1,; item 1 Variant subtags are used to indicate additional, well-recognized variations that define a language or its dialects that are not covered by other available subtags. The following rules apply to the variant subtags: 1. Variant subtags MUST follow any primary language, extended language, script, or region subtags, and MUST precede any extension or private use subtag sequences {COMMENTS: again, I think you only mean those private-use subtags preceded by the singleton x; you might insert at end the following} INSERT > (again, private use subtags does not include those reserved codes 'qaa'- . . .). * * * * * *2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example 9. In the event that more than one extension appears in a single tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Secton 4.5. For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" {COMMENT: please correct the spelling of "extention." This you have to do I think.} REPLACE WITH/CORRECT> For example, if an extension were defined for the singleton 'r' and it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private" * * ** * * 2.2.9; page 20; par 4 Phillips & Davis Expires May 4, 2009 [Page 20] Internet-Draft language-tags October 2008 Older specifications or language tag implementations sometimes reference [RFC3066]. A wider array of tags was considered 'well- formed' under that document. Any tags that were valid for use under RFC 3066 are both 'well-formed' and 'valid' under this document's syntax; only invalid or illegal tags were well-formed by the early definition but no longer are. The language tag syntax under RFC 3066 was: obs-language-tag = primary-subtag *( "-" subtag ) primary-subtag = 1*8ALPHA subtag = 1*8(ALPHA / DIGIT) Figure 2: RFC 3066 Language Tag Syntax {CLARIFICATION?: I'm still not clear as to what tags were well-formed but no longer are; I personally do not see the need of this comment; I guess though that you mean that thesetags used subtags that were not in the registry but were otherwise well-formed??? If that's what you mean it's not clear.} * * * Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com --_0e701e4f-6ad4-4e98-b3d7-c8ccaf3b644c_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi!

Here again my comments on the draft  http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 notesū.
 
I think I got most of the whitespace out by reformatting this email as text and then formatting it again??? (Not sure; we'll see.)
 
Each comment I've begun with and ended with 3 asterisks (* * *).
 
 
Whether or not you take my edits, I do think you need to make one change:


2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example
(In my previous email I said this was on page 18 but it is on page 17 after all; sorry!)      
 
{COMMENT:  please correct the spelling of "extention" in the paragraph below to "extension"}
 
For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"

Another important comment:
 
SECTION 2.2.2. Extended Language Subtags; page 11; par 1; 2nd to last sentence

{COMMENT:  I think the fourth sentence of this paragraph should say "REQUIRED" not "RECOMMENDED"  as I assume that a language tag without a primary language subtag will not be parsed properly}:

This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming   the language tag. 

REPLACE WITH > This primary language subtag is REQUIRED.

 
Finally, I still have a request for clarification:
 
What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right? 
 
All my comments on section 2 are below; I'm now working on section 3 (I would love a hard--printed that is--copy of the rest of this to go through too; the draft has gotten big and expensive to print!)

Best,


C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 
* * *
Section 2.1; Page 4; par 2.  
 
There are different types of subtag, each of which is distinguished  by length, position in the tag, and content: each subtag's type can   be recognized solely by these features.  This makes it possible to   extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags, even if   the specific subtag values are not recognized.  Thus, a language tag   processor need not have a list of valid tags or subtags (that is, a   copy of some version of the IANA Language Subtag Registry) in order   to perform common searching and matching operations.  The only   exceptions to this ability to infer meaning from subtag structure are   the grandfathered tags listed in the productions 'regular' and   'irregular' below.  These tags were registered under [RFC3066] and   are a fixed list that can never change.
 
{COMMENTS:  The above paragraph is a bit awkward, hard to read}

REPLACE WITH >  There are several/different types of subtags.  A subtag's length and position in the language tag, as well as its content, serves to distinguish its subtag type.  Thus it is possible to extract from and assign to the subtag some semantic information, even when the subtag's specific value is not recognized. Because of this, a language tag processor need not have a list of all valid tags or subtags (that is, a copy of the IANA Language Subtag Registry), in order to perform common searching and matching operations on the tag.  Exceptions are the 'regular' and 'irregular' grandfathered tags, listed below.  Semantic information cannot be extracted from the individual subtags that compose the grandfathered language tags because these tags are only interpretable only as wholes.  The order of and length of subtags that make up the 'irregular' grandfathered tags may in fact vary from the rules governing order and length of subtags speci fied in this document (see below).  It is therefore possible, in an irregular grandfathered language tag, to have a variant subtag composed of fewer than four characters or a subtag denoting a region preceding one denoting a language, as in, for example, "sgn-BE-fr" (which denotes Belgian French sign language, the French language as used in Belgium).  The grandfathered tags were registered under [RFC3066] and are a fixed list that can never change.
 
    
* * *
* * *
Section 2.1; page 4; par. 3
The syntax of the language tag in ABNF [RFC5234] is:
. . .
{COMMENTS:It is confusing to have the whole list that follows--that is, figure 1--with no real introduction; what about a short definition of the syntax first?}
 
REPLACE WITH >  The language tag (referred to below as langtag) in ABNF [FRC5234] is composed of one (1) language (or macrolanguage?) subtag, followed by--in order--zero or one extended language subtag, zero or one script subtag, zero or one region subtag, sero or more variant subtags, and zero or more singletons (single character prefixes) for extension language subtags, with each singleton followed by one or more extension language subtags.
The language tag may be interrupted anywhere in the tag (including initial position) by private use subtags.  These are introduced by the singleton x.  The singleton x indicates that all content that follows is governed by private agreement only, and that its meaning and arrangement is not covered in this document (see section 2.2.7 and 4.6 below for more information on private use subtags).Rules governing the length of the various types of subtags are specified below and in Section 2.2. As noted above, grandfathered language tags are not governed by all of the above rules of syntax (for more on grandfathered tags, see 2.2.8, below).
* * *
* * *
Section 2.1, pages 4-6

{COMMENTS:
My main comment on the section below is that I find it very distracting and bizarre to use the asterisk [*] to indicate a variable number of letters and numbers, for example 5*8 indicates 5 to 8 letters in a variant subtag beginning with a letter;
I would prefer some other symbol-- 5 - 8; or 5-8 or 5to8??  Thanks.}

 Language-Tag  = langtag             ; normal language tags               / privateuse          ; private use tag               / grandfathered       ; grandfathered tags langtag       = language                 ["-" script]                 ["-" region]                 *("-" variant)                 *("-" extension)      &n bsp;          ["-" privateuse] language      = 2*3ALPHA            ; shortest ISO 639 code                 ["-" extlang]       ; sometimes followed by                                     ;   extended language subtags               / 4ALPHA              ; or reserved for future use               / 5*8ALPHA          ;   ; or registered language subtagPhillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                  [Page 5]
 Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008 extlang       = 3ALPHA              ; selected ISO 639 codes                 *2("-" 3ALPHA)      ; permanently reserved script        = 4ALPHA              ; ISO 15924 code region  &nbs p;     = 2ALPHA              ; ISO 3166-1 code               / 3DIGIT              ; UN M.49 code variant       = 5*8alphanum         ; registered variants               / (DIGIT 3alphanum) extension     = singleton 1*("-" (2*8alphanum))                                     ; Single alphanumerics                      & nbsp;              ; "x" reserved for private use singleton     = %x41-57             ; a - w               / %x59-5A             ; y - z               / %x61-77             ; A - W               / %x79-7A             ; Y - Z               / DIGIT               ; 0 - 9 privateuse    = "x" 1*("-" (1 *8alphanum)) grandfathered = irregular           ; non-redundant tags registered               / regular             ;   during the RFC 3066 era irregular     = "en-GB-oed"         ; irregular tags do not match               / "i-ami"             ; the 'langtag' production and               / "i-bnn"             ; would not otherwise be               / "i-default"       & nbsp; ; considered 'well-formed'               / "i-enochian"        ; These tags are all valid,               / "i-hak"             ; but most are deprecated               / "i-klingon"         ; in favor of more modern               / "i-lux"             ; subtags or subtag               / "i-mingo"           ; combination           &n bsp;   / "i-navajo"               / "i-pwn"               / "i-tao"               / "i-tay"               / "i-tsu"               / "sgn-BE-FR"               / "sgn-BE-NL"               / "sgn-CH-DE"
Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                  [Page 6]Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008 regular       = "art-lojban"        ; these tags match the 'langtag'               / "cel-gaulish"       ; production, but their subtags               / "no-bok"            ; are not extended language          & nbsp;    / "no-nyn"            ; or variant subtags: their meaning               / "zh-guoyu"          ; is defined by their registration               / "zh-hakka"          ; and all of these are deprecated               / "zh-min"            ; in favor of a more modern               / "zh-min-nan"        ; subtag or sequence of subtags               / "zh-xiang" alphanum  &n bsp;   = (ALPHA / DIGIT)     ; letters and numbers                        Figure 1: Language Tag ABNF
* * *
* * *
Section 2.1; page 6, par 5
There is a subtlety in the ABNF production 'variant':

{COMMENTS: ???  Do you need this comment about 'subtlety'?; the information that follows this--see below--is sufficient!}

 
REPLACE WITH > {NULL, nothing here needed.}
* * *
* * *
a variant starting with a digit has a minimum   length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have a   minimum length of five characters.
 
{COMMENT:
If you delete the sentence above, beginning, "There is a subtlety . . . ," then make the 'a' upper case.}
 
REPLACE WITH > A variant starting with a digit . . .
* * *
* * *
Section 2.2.  Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation; page 8, par 3   Language tags are designed so that each subtag type has unique length   and content restrictions.  These make identification of the subtag's   type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is   unrecognized.  This allows tags to be parsed and processed without   reference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the   IANA registry and makes the associated exception handling when  parsing tags simpler.
 
{COMMENTS: last sentence is awkward and wordy; change.}
 
REPLACE WITH > This allows tags to be parsed and processed without reference to either the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA registry, and simplifies exception handling associated with the parsing of language tags.
* * *
* * *
Section 2.2; page 8; par 5
 
{CLARIFICATION??NEED CLARIFICATION of the first sentence in the paragraph below:What about the reserved sequences for private language subtags ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz,' and the reserved sequences for private region subtags including 'AA,' 'QM'-'QZ,' 'XA-XZ,' and 'ZZ?' These do not follow the singleton x and so occur in their normal position in the language tag, right?}  
 
Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end   of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags   defined elsewhere in this document.  These sequences are introduced   by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows:
 
 
REPLACE WITH > Sequences of private use (excepting those sequences reserved for language subtags--ranging from 'qaa' to 'qtz', those reserved for script subtags--ranging from 'Qaaa' to 'Qabx', and those reserved for region subtags--including 'AA', 'QM'-'QZ', 'XA'-XZ', and 'ZZ') and extension subtagsMUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document.
* * *
* * *
Section 2.2.1. Primary Language Subtag, p. 9, par 1, item 5  
 
5.  Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA       registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5       and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag.  An example       of what such a registration might include: one of the       grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian".  The subtag       'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary       language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this       language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian-       Latn" valid.       At the time this document was created, there were no examples of       this kind of subtag and futur e registrations of this type are       discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for       registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/       RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered       with IANA.
 
{ COMMENT:A transition--such as "However," "The above notwithstanding," etc, is needed to go the second paragraph in item 5 above.}
 
REPLACE WITH > However, at the time this document was created, there were no examples of       this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are       discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for       registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/       RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized before they are registered       with IANA.
* * *
* * *
2.2.1; p. 11; par. 6
 
{COMMENT/CLARIFICATION?:What is the reference for "these" in the first sentence of the paragraph below?I do not think "these" is needed; that is I do not think you need to refer back to a prior mention of these problems.}  
 
To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as  experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in   [iso639.prin]:> To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice ((as   experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in   [iso639.prin]:
    
"A language code already in ISO 639-2 at the point of freezing ISO      639-1 shall not later be added to ISO 639-1.  This is to ensure      consistency in usage over time, since users are directed in      Internet applications to employ the alpha-3 code when an alpha-2      code for that language is not available."
 
REPLACE WITH >  To avoid problems with versioning and subtag choice . . .

* * * 
* * *
SECTION 2.2.2. Extended Language Subtags; page 11; par 1

{COMMENT:  I think the fourth sentence of this paragraph should say "REQUIRED" not "RECOMMENDED;" this is not the same
as capitalization rules, which are simply recommendations; I assume that a language tag without a primary language subtag will not be parsed properly.}

Extended language subtags are used to identify certain specially-   selected languages that, for various historical and compatibility   reasons, are closely identified with or tagged using an existing   primary language subtag.  Extended language subtags are always used   with their enclosing primary language subtag (indicated with a   'Prefix' field in the registry) when used to form the language tag.   All languages that have an extended language subtag in the registry   also have an identical primary language subtag record in the   registry.  This primary language subtag is RECOMMENDED for forming   the language tag.  The following rules apply to the extended language   subtags:

REPLACE WITH > This primary language subtag is REQUIRED.
 
{END OF SENTENCE.}
 
* * *
* * *
2.2.2. p. 11; par 1; item 4.

{ CLARIFICATION??  Item 4 is confusing to me' does this mean that while 3 extended language subtags are permitted in theory, only one is permitted in fact?
Or does this mean that three extended language subtags are permitted in fact when they have the same language subtag for a prefix & that they must all share that one prefix.
Does this ever happen?   It would be nice to clarify this in the draft.}

Although the ABNF production 'extlang' permits up to three       extended language tags in the language tag, extended language       subtags MUST NOT include another extended language subtag in       their Prefix.  That is, the second and third extended language       subtag positions in a language tag are permanently reserved and       tags that include subtags in that position are invalid.
* * *
* * *
2.2.2; page 12; par 2.
  
For example, the macrolanguage Chinese ('zh') encompasses a number of   languages.  For compatibility reasons, each of these languages has   both a primary and extended language subtag in the registry.  A few   selected examples of these include Gan Chinese ('gan'), Cantonese   Chinese ('yue') and Mandarin Chinese ('cmn').  Each is encompassed by   the macrolanguage 'zh' (Chinese).  Therefore, they each have the   prefix "zh" in their registry records.  Thus Gan Chinese is   represented with tags beginning "zh-gan" or "gan"; Cantonese with   tags beginning either "yue" or "zh-yue"; and Mandarin Chinese with   "zh-cmn" or "cmn".  The language subtag 'zh' can still be used   without an extended language subtag to label a resource as some   unspecified variety of Chinese, while the primary language subtag   ('gan', 'yue', 'cmn') is preferred to using the extended language   form ("zh-gan", "zh-yue", "zh-cmn").
{CLARIFICATION??:  are there ever instances where zh-cmn might be preferable?  For example, with written Chinese, targeting primarily a Mandarin-speaking audience?}
* * *
* * *
2.2.3.  Script Subtag; page 12; par 1; item 4.  
 
4.  There MUST be at most one script subtag in a language tag, and       the script subtag SHOULD be omitted when it adds no       distinguishing value to the tag or when the primary or extended       language subtag's record in the subtag registry includes a       'Suppress-Script' field listing the applicable script subtag.   For example: "sr-Latn" represents Serbian written using the Latin   script. 

{ COMMENT:  I want to add a second example here that would not be appropriate, so it will be clearer to readers--might even prefer to replace the first example.  Or is the ex. getting too detailed?}

INSERT > The tag, "uk-Latn" similarly represents Ukrainian written in the Latin script.  The tag, "uk", on the other hand, indicates Ukrainian written in Cyrillic script.  On the other hand, the tag, "uk-Cyrl", is not a well-formed tag as a suppress-script of Cyrillic is registered for Ukrainian, and so the script subtag should not be used;
the tag "uk" is all that is needed in this case.
* * *
* * *
2.2.4. Region Subtag; page 13; par 1; item 2     
 
2.  Two-letter region subtags were defined according to the       assignments found in {ISO3155-1] ("Codes for the representation       of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country       codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or using       assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance       agency or governing standardization bodies.  In addition, the       codes that are "exceptionally reserved" (as opposed to       "assigned") in ISO 3166-1 were also defined in the registry, with       the exception of 'UK', which is an exact synonym for the assigned       code 'GB'.
 
{COMMENT: 
First,  elsewhere you use the present tense with "defined;" these subtags are still so defined, right?  If so I think the present tense is best, as you use it elsewhere.
Second,  I inserted "in the registry" after defined; it seems more explicit;
Third,  in the clause that begins "or using assignments," "using" appears to be in parallel to the word "using" in the phrase, "using the list of alpha-2 . . ."--because of the repetition of "using;" at least it sounds this way to my ear; but it's actually parallel grammatically and semantically to the clause that begins "according to"--so I changed "using" to "according to" to emphasize this parallelism
}
 
REPLACE WITH > 2.  Two-letter region subtags are defined in the registry according to assignments found in [ISO3166-1] ("Codes for the representation       of names of countries and their subdivisions -- Part 1: Country       codes") using the list of alpha-2 country codes, or according to       assignments subsequently made by the ISO 3166-1 maintenance       agency or governing standardization bodies.
* * *
* * *
2.2.4; page 14; par 1; item 4C

C.  When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one           country or area to another country or area and that code           already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for           that country or area MUST be registered in the registry as           described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language           tags that represent the country or region for which it is           defined (rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code).

{COMMENT:  the wording is a bit confusing; insert "to which the code has been reassigned;" change the order a bit so that "rather than the recycled ISO 3166-1 code" is next tothe info. on the U.N. numeric code. }

REPLACE WITH > When ISO 3166-1 reassigns a code formerly used for one           country or area to another country or area and that code           already is present in the registry, the UN numeric code for           the country or area to which the code has been reassigned--and not the recycled ISO 3166-1 code--MUST be registered in the registry as           described in Section 3.4 and MUST be used to form language           tags that represent the country or region for which it is           defined.
* * *
* * *
Section 2.2.5 Variant Subtags; p. 15; par 1,; item 1  
Variant subtags are used to indicate additional, well-recognized   variations that define a language or its dialects that are not   covered by other available subtags.  The following rules apply to the   variant subtags:   1.  Variant subtags MUST follow any primary language, extended       language, script, or region subtags, and MUST precede any       extension or private use subtag sequences
 
{COMMENTS: again, I think you only mean those private-use subtags preceded by the singleton x; you might insert at end the following}
 
INSERT > (again, private use subtags does not include those reserved codes 'qaa'- . . .).
* * *  
* * *
2.2.6; Page 17; par 1; item 9; Example       
9.  In the event that more than one extension appears in a single       tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Secton 4.5.    For example, if an extention were defined for the singleton 'r' and   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"
{COMMENT:  please correct the spelling of "extention."  This you have to do I think.}
REPLACE WITH/CORRECT>    For example, if an extension were defined for the singleton 'r' and   it defined the subtags shown, then the following tag would be a valid   example: "en-Latn-GB-boont-r-extended-sequence-x-private"
* * *
* * *
2.2.9; page 20; par 4 Phillips & Davis           Expires May 4, 2009                 [Page 20]
 Internet-Draft                language-tags                 October 2008   Older specifications or language tag implementations sometimes reference [RFC3066].  A wider array of tags was considered 'well-   formed' under that document.  Any tags that were valid for use under   RFC 3066 are both 'well-formed' and 'valid' under this document's   syntax; only invalid or illegal tags were well-formed by the early   definition but no longer are.  The language tag syntax under RFC 3066   was:     &n bsp; obs-language-tag = primary-subtag *( "-" subtag )       primary-subtag   = 1*8ALPHA       subtag           = 1*8(ALPHA / DIGIT)                  Figure 2: RFC 3066 Language Tag Syntax
{CLARIFICATION?:  I'm still not clear as to what tags were well-formed but no longer are; I personally do not see the need of this comment; I guess though that you mean that thesetags used subtags that were not in the registry but were otherwise well-formed???  If that's what you mean it's not clear.}
* * *
Best,
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 
--_0e701e4f-6ad4-4e98-b3d7-c8ccaf3b644c_-- --===============1941083330== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1941083330==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 10:04:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59D5D3A683F; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:04:23 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C636E3A68D3 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:04:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.371, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5pbd746y4vAK for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:04:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB91E3A683F for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:04:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=SXF/iKpqdqqBES+GKqzILh0maF662GvYqKh/xIkpWVnhTkX5VS8r103r7xrJkyEO; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.28.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L7w5A-00051h-6g for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:04:16 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c95571$bcb650a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:05:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e49a80de0e4bbe0629505f68703afcf613350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.28.185 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "Addison Phillips" ; "Martin Duerst" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD > > Unfortunately, there was a major omission in draft #19. See my email of Nov > 4 on the topic "[Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage" responding > to Addison's proposed text. Since there was no objection raised to my > suggested text, I'd assumed that it was going to be used. I suspect this was > just an oversight, but the technical issues are real. Here is a repeat of my > message. As co-chair: Arrrgghhh. Ok, let's get this issue resolved *quickly*, then decide whether a new draft is needed. As a technical contributor... ... > There are a number of textual problems with the proposed text: > > Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a > collection of subtags, see ) which SHOULD be > used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the prefix > MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT > include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose > 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. blankLines="1"/>For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a ' > Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and > "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza > dialect) is not. > > Most of these were present before your latest suggestion: > > - The suggested text ("The subtags in the prefix MUST appear...") in the > second line is not consistent with the SHOULD of the first line. That is, we > can't say "The subtags in the prefixMUST appear before the subtag in > Prefix's record." if it is only a SHOULD that the prefix be used with the > subtag at all! Agreed. > - The wording is also awkward, since it suggests that the subtags are > appearing in order in the Prefix's *record* instead of in a language tag. Agreed. > - Also, the gloss "basically a collection of subtags" is a bit funny, > since it is not a collection: I'd expect something like {abc, def, ghi} if > that were the case. Since they are linked with "-", they are actually > ordered. Agreed. > - The use of extended language range, surprisingly, does *not* eliminate > syntactically invalid Prefixes! Yup. > - And now that we are excluding the *, and with the fact that it doesn't > help with the syntax, just the use of "extended language range" is now > useless. Agreed. > - The wording also requires that *each* prefix SHOULD be used, instead of > *at least one of* the Prefixes! Ewww. > My suggested revised text: > > Prefix's field-body contains a sequence of subtags separated by '-'. This > field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either > 'extlang' or 'variant', and one of the following concatenations MUST be a one = "at least one" or "exactly one"? > well-formed language tag > > > 1. prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body, or > 2. "und-" + prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body So far, so good. > For example, the Prefix "Latn-de" for the variant '1994' MUST NOT be > registered, since neither "Latn-de-1994" nor "und-Latn-de-1994" are > well-formed language tags. The prefix"Latn" could be registered for the > variant '1994', since "und-Latn-1994" is well-formed. I'd omit the example, since it doesn't seem particularly helpful, and there's potentially no end to examples of what *NOT* to do. > If a record contains any Prefix field, then any language tag containing the would read better if the first "any" were an "a" > record's subtag SHOULD also contain the subtag(s) from at least one > Prefix field. > Where a language tag contains the prefix's subtag(s) and the record's > subtag, those subtags SHOULD occur in that order in the language tag, > although perhaps with intervening subtags. > > For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl" > (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are > appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is > not appropriate and SHOULD NOT be used. I'd drop the negative example. If we must keep it, I'd replace "not appropriate" with "not meaningful". > The variant '1994' has multiple prefix fields, where each prefix field has > multiple subtags: "sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva",... A > language tag containing '1994' SHOULD have all the subtags from at least one > of these prefix fields, such as "sl-fonipa-rozaj-1994" or "sl-rozaj-biske- > fonipa-1994" (the 'fonipa' subtag is added to show the use of optional > intervening subtags). A language tag could contain subtags from multiple > prefix fields, such as "sl-rozaj-biske-njiva-1994", although that should be > avoided where the subtags are mutually exclusive. (Aside: these examples show why it really would have been much better to have been able to treat IPA as a script!) Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 10:17:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B0D3A6802; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27C13A67E2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.851 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.851 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.127, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_51=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_54=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_71=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5Nk8z6J7eUIC for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com (rn-out-0910.google.com [64.233.170.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39603A67E4 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id j77so3083303rne.18 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 10:17:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=XPpXfj0eDgU037BcBw/HoLSDdeLqssrDdBpFLwwg1Eg=; b=L/j6a1KpzpV3UWjM1jN2ZevyHX32w/QvN+oiSWm3fMS7wbtiIhlXOTefGfyqxMiKdm 6kyRP4Yo8XNv2bho2xU1pLDwvd8wNUVJXkdPTGr1YDhxmnl9UnMFFpstv1bik5ZsG+IY Helbh6vjAHdQTB95tX1r2JWOIRAHtCM6vQg8w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=DGCImaF8Ax9b53qNuvCKpmMwzxGzg+2tl3HzLfSimVRYmULepoxZHBlyUlCy2mt4kk JIyZMlp3++b7qlvJBRwOFM6zGdEapgJti4x+29QtNPzPfUUk1RUDlliR2XzQhS4XoTc4 g8sdQEzXKv55KuvCsVO2vEf3J8zjqOfxFIaGg= Received: by 10.142.50.15 with SMTP id x15mr5490879wfx.229.1228328230312; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 10:17:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812031017y3efc9df9jaa5f89e9c9065a80@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:17:10 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "LTRU Working Group" In-Reply-To: <30b660a20812031016n51a820aepe9136266998e15f8@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20812031016n51a820aepe9136266998e15f8@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 180666be2d463885 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=E2=80=8F?= =?utf-8?b?4oCP?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1307910967==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1307910967== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_32420_28273722.1228328230288" ------=_Part_32420_28273722.1228328230288 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline SSB0b29rIGEgbG9vayB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZXNlLiBPdmVyYWxsLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZXJlIGlzIG9u ZSBuZWNlc3NhcnkgY2hhbmdlCih0aGUgc3BlbGxpbmcgY29ycmVjdGlvbiBmb3IgImV4dGVudGlv biIpLiBUaGUgb3RoZXJzIHdlcmUgZWl0aGVyCnVubmVjZXNzYXJ5IChhdCB0aGlzIHBvaW50KSBv ciBpbmNvcnJlY3QuCk1hcmsKCgoyMDA4LzEyLzMgQ0UgV2hpdGVoZWFkIDxjZXdjYXRoYXJAaG90 bWFpbC5jb20+Cgo+Cj4gSGkhCj4KPiBIZXJlIGFnYWluIG15IGNvbW1lbnRzIG9uIHRoZSBkcmFm 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Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=E2=80=8F?= =?utf-8?b?4oCP?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SGkgLQoKPiBGcm9tOiAiTWFyayBEYXZpcyIgPG1hcmtAbWFjY2hpYXRvLmNvbT4KPiBUbzogIkxU UlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cCIgPGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmc+Cj4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBEZWNl bWJlciAwMywgMjAwOCAxMDoxNyBBTQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbTHRydV0gMTN0aC1ob3VyIFdH IExhc3QgQ2FsbCBjb21tZW50c+KAj+KAjwo+Cj4gSSB0b29rIGEgbG9vayB0aHJvdWdoIHRoZXNl LiBPdmVyYWxsLCBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZXJlIGlzIG9uZSBuZWNlc3NhcnkgY2hhbmdlCj4gKHRoZSBz cGVsbGluZyBjb3JyZWN0aW9uIGZvciAiZXh0ZW50aW9uIikuIFRoZSBvdGhlcnMgd2VyZSBlaXRo ZXIKPiB1bm5lY2Vzc2FyeSAoYXQgdGhpcyBwb2ludCkgb3IgaW5jb3JyZWN0LgouLi4KCkJvdGgg 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<30b660a20812031028v3e80316eo333d7d768983c82b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:28:34 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <000c01c95571$bcb650a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <000c01c95571$bcb650a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: aeec754ccef55b80 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1816473014==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1816473014== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_32601_18731255.1228328914082" ------=_Part_32601_18731255.1228328914082 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Mark On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:05, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; "Addison Phillips" < > addison@amazon.com>; "Martin Duerst" > > > Cc: > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:24 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD > > > > Unfortunately, there was a major omission in draft #19. See my email of > Nov > > 4 on the topic "[Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage" > responding > > to Addison's proposed text. Since there was no objection raised to my > > suggested text, I'd assumed that it was going to be used. I suspect this > was > > just an oversight, but the technical issues are real. Here is a repeat of > my > > message. > > As co-chair: > > Arrrgghhh. Ok, let's get this issue resolved *quickly*, then decide > whether a new draft is needed. > > As a technical contributor... > > ... > > There are a number of textual problems with the proposed text: > > > > Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a > > collection of subtags, see ) which SHOULD > be > > used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the > prefix > > MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT > > include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose > > 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > blankLines="1"/>For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a ' > > Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and > > "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, > Nadiza > > dialect) is not. > > > > Most of these were present before your latest suggestion: > > > > - The suggested text ("The subtags in the prefix MUST appear...") in > the > > second line is not consistent with the SHOULD of the first line. That > is, we > > can't say "The subtags in the prefixMUST appear before the subtag in > > Prefix's record." if it is only a SHOULD that the prefix be used with > the > > subtag at all! > > Agreed. > > > - The wording is also awkward, since it suggests that the subtags are > > appearing in order in the Prefix's *record* instead of in a language > tag. > > Agreed. > > > - Also, the gloss "basically a collection of subtags" is a bit funny, > > since it is not a collection: I'd expect something like {abc, def, > ghi} if > > that were the case. Since they are linked with "-", they are actually > > ordered. > > Agreed. > > > - The use of extended language range, surprisingly, does *not* > eliminate > > syntactically invalid Prefixes! > > Yup. > > > - And now that we are excluding the *, and with the fact that it > doesn't > > help with the syntax, just the use of "extended language range" is now > > useless. > > Agreed. > > > - The wording also requires that *each* prefix SHOULD be used, instead > of > > *at least one of* the Prefixes! > > Ewww. > > > My suggested revised text: > > > > Prefix's field-body contains a sequence of subtags separated by '-'. This > > field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either > > 'extlang' or 'variant', and one of the following concatenations MUST be a > > one = "at least one" or "exactly one"? "at least one" is better, thanks. > > > > well-formed language tag > > > > > > 1. prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body, or > > 2. "und-" + prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body > > So far, so good. > > > For example, the Prefix "Latn-de" for the variant '1994' MUST NOT be > > registered, since neither "Latn-de-1994" nor "und-Latn-de-1994" are > > well-formed language tags. The prefix"Latn" could be registered for the > > variant '1994', since "und-Latn-1994" is well-formed. > > I'd omit the example, since it doesn't seem particularly helpful, and > there's potentially no end to examples of what *NOT* to do. I disagree. There is also potentially no end of examples of what TO do either; that doesn't disqualify us from adding examples ;-) More seriously, negative examples are quite useful for understanding, especially when we are discussing a constraint. > > > > If a record contains any Prefix field, then any language tag containing > the > > would read better if the first "any" were an "a" either way is fine with me. > > > > record's subtag SHOULD also contain the subtag(s) from at least one > > Prefix field. > > Where a language tag contains the prefix's subtag(s) and the record's > > subtag, those subtags SHOULD occur in that order in the language tag, > > although perhaps with intervening subtags. > > > > For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl" > > (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are > > appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is > > not appropriate and SHOULD NOT be used. > > I'd drop the negative example. If we must keep it, I'd replace "not > appropriate" > with "not meaningful". I'd disagree. We use "appropriate" all over the place for this kind of case. "Meaningful" is too open-ended. > > > The variant '1994' has multiple prefix fields, where each prefix field > has > > multiple subtags: "sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva",... A > > language tag containing '1994' SHOULD have all the subtags from at least > one > > of these prefix fields, such as "sl-fonipa-rozaj-1994" or > "sl-rozaj-biske- > > fonipa-1994" (the 'fonipa' subtag is added to show the use of optional > > intervening subtags). A language tag could contain subtags from multiple > > prefix fields, such as "sl-rozaj-biske-njiva-1994", although that should > be > > avoided where the subtags are mutually exclusive. > > (Aside: these examples show why it really would have been much better to > have been able to treat IPA as a script!) (Also aside: Oh, yes! Unfortunately, the script folks are a bit too ivory-tower for that. And unfortunately, we didn't anticipate that when we did 4646, or we would have provided for syntax to allow registration of script subtags, using one of the currently impossible tags (like 4 characters with at least one digit and at least one letter).) > > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_32601_18731255.1228328914082 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline
Mark


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:05, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "Addison Phillips" <addison@amazon.com>; "Martin Duerst"
<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Cc: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 9:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD
>
> Unfortunately, there was a major omission in draft #19. See my email of Nov
> 4 on the topic "[Ltru] rfc4646bis-18 "not suitable" prefix usage" responding
> to Addison's proposed text. Since there was no objection raised to my
> suggested text, I'd assumed that it was going to be used. I suspect this was
> just an oversight, but the technical issues are real. Here is a repeat of my
> message.

As co-chair:

Arrrgghhh.  Ok, let's get this issue resolved *quickly*, then decide
whether a new draft is needed.

As a technical contributor...

...
> There are a number of textual problems with the proposed text:
>
> <t>Prefix's field-body contains a "extended language range" (basically, a
> collection of subtags, see <xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) which SHOULD be
> used with this subtag when forming language tag. The subtags in the prefix
> MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT
> include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose
> 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. <vspace
> blankLines="1"/>For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a '
> Prefix' of "sl" (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and
> "sl-IT-nedis" are appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza
> dialect) is not.</t>
>
> Most of these were present before your latest suggestion:
>
>    - The suggested text ("The subtags in the prefix MUST appear...") in the
>    second line is not consistent with the SHOULD of the first line. That is, we
>    can't say "The subtags in the prefixMUST appear before the subtag in
>    Prefix's record." if it is only a SHOULD that the prefix be used with the
>    subtag at all!

Agreed.

>    - The wording is also awkward, since it suggests that the subtags are
>    appearing in order in the Prefix's *record* instead of in a language tag.

Agreed.

>    - Also, the gloss "basically a collection of subtags" is a bit funny,
>    since it is not a collection: I'd expect something like {abc, def, ghi} if
>    that were the case. Since they are linked with "-", they are actually
>    ordered.

Agreed.

>    - The use of extended language range, surprisingly, does *not* eliminate
>    syntactically invalid Prefixes!

Yup.

>    - And now that we are excluding the *, and with the fact that it doesn't
>    help with the syntax, just the use of "extended language range" is now
>    useless.

Agreed.

>    - The wording also requires that *each* prefix SHOULD be used, instead of
>    *at least one of* the Prefixes!

Ewww.

 > My suggested revised text:
>
> Prefix's field-body contains a sequence of subtags separated by '-'. This
> field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either
> 'extlang' or 'variant', and one of the following concatenations MUST be a

one = "at least one" or "exactly one"?

"at least one" is better, thanks. 


> well-formed language tag
>
>
>    1. prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body, or
>       2. "und-" + prefix_field_body + "-" + subtag_field_body

So far, so good.

> For example, the Prefix "Latn-de" for the variant '1994' MUST NOT be
> registered, since neither "Latn-de-1994" nor  "und-Latn-de-1994" are
> well-formed language tags. The prefix"Latn" could be registered for the
> variant '1994', since "und-Latn-1994" is well-formed.

I'd omit the example, since it doesn't seem particularly helpful, and
there's potentially no end to examples of what *NOT* to do.

I disagree. There is also potentially no end of examples of what TO do either; that doesn't disqualify us from adding examples ;-)

More seriously, negative examples are quite useful for understanding, especially when we are discussing a constraint.
 


> If a record contains any Prefix field, then any language tag containing the

would read better if the first "any" were an "a"

either way is fine with me. 


> record's subtag SHOULD also contain the subtag(s) from at least one
> Prefix field.
> Where a language tag contains the prefix's subtag(s) and the record's
> subtag, those subtags SHOULD occur in that order in the language tag,
> although perhaps with intervening subtags.
>
> For example, the variant 'nedis' (Nadiza dialect) has a 'Prefix' of "sl"
> (Slovenian), meaning that tags such as "sl-nedis" and "sl-IT-nedis" are
> appropriate, while the tag "is-nedis" (Icelandic, Nadiza dialect) is
> not appropriate and SHOULD NOT be used.

I'd drop the negative example.  If we must keep it, I'd replace "not appropriate"
with "not meaningful".

I'd disagree. We use "appropriate" all over the place for this kind of case. "Meaningful" is too open-ended.



> The variant '1994' has multiple prefix fields, where each prefix field has
> multiple subtags: "sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva",... A
> language tag containing '1994' SHOULD have all the subtags from at least one
> of these prefix fields, such as "sl-fonipa-rozaj-1994" or "sl-rozaj-biske-
> fonipa-1994" (the 'fonipa' subtag is added to show the use of optional
> intervening subtags). A language tag could contain subtags from multiple
> prefix fields, such as "sl-rozaj-biske-njiva-1994", although that should be
> avoided where the subtags are mutually exclusive.

(Aside: these examples show why it really would have been much better to
have been able to treat IPA as a script!)

(Also aside: Oh, yes! Unfortunately, the script folks are a bit too ivory-tower for that. And unfortunately, we didn't anticipate that when we did 4646, or we would have provided for syntax to allow registration of script subtags, using one of the currently impossible tags (like 4 characters with at least one digit and at least one letter).)
 


Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_32601_18731255.1228328914082-- --===============1816473014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1816473014==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 10:33:08 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FBD13A68AB; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D9D3A67EC for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:33:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.751 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.751 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--===============0030857466== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0030857466==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 10:36:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC283A68B4; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:36:25 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7BE0B3A68B4 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:36:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.254 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.254 tagged_above=-999 required=5 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ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:36:17 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:36:16 -0800 Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0x0cnVdIDEzdGgtaG91ciBXRyBMYXN0IENhbGwgY29tbWVudHPigI/igI8=?= Thread-Index: AclVdKAa4aXdpHtyRUmWrm3d6PW5/QAAU7eA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA6DC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20812031016n51a820aepe9136266998e15f8@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20812031017y3efc9df9jaa5f89e9c9065a80@mail.gmail.com> <005801c95574$ac59bfa0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <005801c95574$ac59bfa0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=E2=80=8F?= =?utf-8?b?4oCP?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBhbSBwcmVwYXJpbmcgYSBkZXRhaWxlZCByZXNwb25zZSwgaW5kaWNhdGluZyB3aGV0aGVyIGVk aXRvciBoYXQgd2FzIG9uIG9yIG9mZiBmb3IgZWFjaCBpdGVtLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlz b24gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5h dGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0K DQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGll dGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbg0KPiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUmFu ZHkgUHJlc3Vobg0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDAzLCAyMDA4IDEwOjI3IEFN DQo+IFRvOiBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSAxM3RoLWhv dXIgV0cgTGFzdCBDYWxsIGNvbW1lbnRz4oCP4oCPDQo+IA0KPiBIaSAtDQo+IA0KPiA+IEZyb206 ICJNYXJrIERhdmlzIiA8bWFya0BtYWNjaGlhdG8uY29tPg0KPiA+IFRvOiAiTFRSVSBXb3JraW5n 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d2lsbCBmYXJlIGJldHRlciBpbiBJRVRGIGxhc3QNCj4gY2FsbCBvciB3aGVuIGl0IGlzIHB1Ymxp c2hlZC4NCj4gDQo+IFJhbmR5DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9y Zw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCl9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1 Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 10:46:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E5F3A67EC; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:46:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 019B33A67E2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 10:46:56 -0800 (PST) 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cmRzIHRvIGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ2dpbmcuDQoNCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 11:26:23 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 193803A6958; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:26:23 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F14528C0DF for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:26:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.462 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.462 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.136, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from 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"Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Randy Presuhn , Martin Duerst Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 11:26:11 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD Thread-Index: AclVbBC2QSwlip34TKumBLAagtVKnQADFv+A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA933@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2102332793==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org 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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2102332793==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 12:37:50 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DA2528C113; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:37:50 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A50D228C113 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:37:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.726 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.726 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mkOAPeXwLHh2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAF223A69EC for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:37:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so3923790wfd.31 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:37:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Sfx1fFdn+fBOVP79jm3jySxUV0s4PUcd7c4FK4lLW1A=; b=d8ferbOKx6Jzcc8gW/7nc7G9fBSbC6WHcL1veeQ9QiXqA/AAm5dCm4YIDm54guhn4F KI/+gsbKhHi6Q2vKlBZjvgaEUwNIgqo7D3FaYju8V/I/Yi2QdHAR2pU+SN5TSd86zKPM tepT+JmuR5vprrmGCt7Y310k79IaH0T+7hxhU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; 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fbd01458aea9abb3 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0949734133==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0949734133== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_34861_32291046.1228336661947" ------=_Part_34861_32291046.1228336661947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Y29tbWVudHMgYmVsb3cKTWFyawoKCk9uIFdlZCwgRGVjIDMsIDIwMDggYXQgMTE6MjYsIFBoaWxs aXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIDxhZGRpc29uQGFtYXpvbi5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKPiAgSSBnZW5lcmFsbHkg YWdyZWUgd2l0aCB0aGUgb2JzZXJ2YXRpb25zIGhlcmUsIGJ1dCBub3Qgd2l0aCB0aGUgcHJvcG9z ZWQKPiB3b3JkaW5nLiBJIHNlcmlvdXNseSBkaXNhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIGFsbG93aW5nIHRoZSAndW5k 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with ESMTP id 0FAF83A69CC; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:43:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B504128C186 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:43:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u8sNHfTWoj5R for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:42:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F0123A6820 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:42:50 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,710,1220227200"; d="scan'208,217";a="170597165" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 20:42:43 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB3KggRM025553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:42:43 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.311.4; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:42:42 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:41:40 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:42:40 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD Thread-Index: AclVhwE///grVeX9QH22s4sIP2y4twAAA7iw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAAA8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: 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:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ENIeAauod9dAQz2Is4yStSF+48YVxpDJL9Gv7pdT3YY=; b=ujeZKRoOaH77NVrYv53Q+n26X3u1mlrJgAQBrSqITmHPaerzpbwIZZ6p/GF6Zfb118 RXNVr1oRYsRrdXf9zOBy48pvNj+8TZITNiUlsccFaU1MGMAv5yZoo22QpRmOYVWsfbJe oivfvlYNYi+jGaOAhdnhF/QZiECAYx5WvM26s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=mgRdH4DfDg1DsP2tyZ+JlkC6svZ3a3aYjJqOdx3tNwuOMydzFK8NMcvZafPuB2I1tl iOxMUAJeex7P0oDO4S42atjNKrEblqLP9d0nyhAacS8f2a8oIwrc//Ev9qW91sgqdYob n81nKCJQ4obdj23/JnvzaJ6IP9JjQrXSpEpI8= Received: by 10.142.153.7 with SMTP id a7mr5529555wfe.326.1228337462223; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 12:51:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:51:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812031251h17dedef1y4d26cecbd2553646@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 12:51:02 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "CE Whitehead" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30b660a20812031016n51a820aepe9136266998e15f8@mail.gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: db37a9d3403da919 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=E2=80=8F?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=8F--Off-list?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1670841022==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1670841022== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35204_15329342.1228337462219" ------=_Part_35204_15329342.1228337462219 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Taking the liberty of forwarding this to LTRU (I'd mistakenly sent my message twice (once without LTRU), and I'm assuming you'd want this to be to that list). Mark 2008/12/3 CE Whitehead > > Thanks for taking the time to read/respond to my comments. > > The spelling change is certainly the most necessary. It's not a > showstopper agreed. > > I somehow still think that the primary language subtag is required in an > extension; the only time the primarly language subtag can be omitted to my > knowledge is when a private use subtag follows the singleton x at the > beginning of the tag. (I'm sorry; your response to my comment confused me > more; I still think "required" is right; I may be wrong, however). > *A* primary language subtag *IS* required. And there is plenty of other text making that absolutely clear. The sentence you are talking about says "*This* primary language subtag is recommended...". Not "*A* primary ...". That is because in the context of that particular paragraph *the subtag that was mentioned in the immediately preceding sentence* is the one that is recommended. > I agree that notations such as 5*8 can be left as they are--although those > notations trouble me and I so think they might trouble readers not familiar > with standard ietf syntax. > > Somehow it was not clear to me from the draft that the reserved sequences > for private language subtags are all registered; I think you could say this > somewhere in the draft clearly, as early as possible; I'll try to think of > where when I'm using a free computer again > If anyone actually uses the specification, they know that all and only those subtags that are in the registry are usable, and those subtags *are* in the registry. However, I wouldn't object to a statement that emphasizes that for private use subtags. > As for the rest of my changes, I think they make things clearer but are not > necessary. > I agree that some of the language you propose would be an improvement, but there are some definite mistakes as well, or cases where your suggestions are, I think, more confusing than the original. So given the late date, I'd just suggest leaving them alone. If Addison is up for incorporating them, I'm ok with that. But it means that we all have to look very carefully at any changes to make sure that there are no regressions, and I don't think any of these issues are important enough for that. Others may disagree. Mark ------=_Part_35204_15329342.1228337462219 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Taking the liberty of forwarding this to LTRU (I'd mistakenly sent my message twice (once without LTRU), and I'm assuming you'd want this to be to that list).

Mark


2008/12/3 CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>

Thanks for taking the time to read/respond to my comments.
 
The spelling change is certainly the most necessary.  It's not a showstopper agreed.
 
I somehow still think that the primary language subtag is required in an extension; the only time the primarly language subtag can be omitted to my knowledge is when a private use subtag follows the singleton x at the beginning of the tag.  (I'm sorry; your response to my comment confused me more; I still think "required" is right; I may be wrong, however).

*A* primary language subtag *IS* required. And there is plenty of other text making that absolutely clear.

The sentence you are talking about says "*This* primary language subtag is recommended...". Not "*A* primary ...". That is because in the context of that particular paragraph *the subtag that was mentioned in the immediately preceding sentence* is the one that is recommended.

 
I agree that notations such as 5*8 can be left as they are--although those notations trouble me and I so think they might trouble readers not familiar with standard ietf syntax.
 
Somehow it was not clear to me from the draft that the reserved sequences for private language subtags are all registered; I think you could say this somewhere in the draft clearly, as early as possible; I'll try to think of where when I'm using a free computer again

If anyone actually uses the specification, they know that all and only those subtags that are in the registry are usable, and those subtags *are* in the registry. However, I wouldn't object to a statement that emphasizes that for private use subtags.
 
As for the rest of my changes, I think they make things clearer but are not necessary.

I agree that some of the language you propose would be an improvement, but there are some definite mistakes as well, or cases where your suggestions are, I think, more confusing than the original.

So given the late date, I'd just suggest leaving them alone. If Addison is up for incorporating them, I'm ok with that. But it means that we all have to look very carefully at any changes to make sure that there are no regressions, and I don't think any of these issues are important enough for that. Others may disagree.

Mark
------=_Part_35204_15329342.1228337462219-- --===============1670841022== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1670841022==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:10:22 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237BD3A6999; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:10:22 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B923A6999 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:10:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.294 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.294 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.305, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EDf3UdeO4F9N for ; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > If there are any strenuous objections to Addison's proposed resolutions, > on this thread, please speak up NOW. [I sent a copy of this to Addison directly due to flakiness at ccil.org.] Now that my attention has been brought to it, I have to agree that there is the potential for user confusion between private-use subtag such as (such as x-foobar) and subtags of other types reserved for private use such as 'Qaaa'. Consistently using the phrases "private-use subtags" and "subtags reserved for private use" everywhere (almost but not quite true: 2.2.9 says "designated for private use") and explaining what the difference is would IMO go a long way to subduing this confusion. Here's proposed additional text for 2.2.7: Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, subtags reserved for private use are syntactically language, script, or region subtags, not private-use subtags. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which his theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral purpose in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory may have important survival value. --Ian Johnston _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:20:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9C7E3A6820; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:20:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B4D83A6820 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:20:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qWAF9i3Unl0m for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:20:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E523A6A3F for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:20:35 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,710,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="93978481" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 21:20:30 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB3LKRw2026399 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:20:29 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.311.4; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:20:18 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:19:16 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:20:16 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] FW: 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclVjFNjiGs3qrmCQt+q49HLs9dcMQAAHp0A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAB8D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] FW: FW: 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I'm forwarding the note below on behalf of John Cowan. (editor hat ON) I have added the proposed text to my draft-20 copy. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [] Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:16 PM To: Phillips, Addison Subject: Re: [Ltru] FW: 13th-hour WG Last Call comments [ccil.org just went down as I was writing this; please forward to LTRU] Now that my attention has been brought to it, I have to agree that there is the potential for user confusion between private-use subtag such as (such as x-foobar) and subtags of other types reserved for private use such as 'Qaaa'. Consistently using the phrases "private-use subtags" and "subtags reserved for private use" everywhere (almost but not quite true: 2.2.9 says "designated for private use") and explaining what the difference is would IMO go a long way to subduing this confusion. Here's proposed additional text for 2.2.7: Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, subtags reserved for private use are syntactically language, script, or region subtags, not private-use subtags. -- GMail doesn't have rotating .sigs, but you can see mine at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/signatures _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:21:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC21228C118; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:21:39 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 886FB3A67ED for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:21:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.35 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.35 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.826, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dT8GI+eqExU1 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.242]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 678A93A6A63 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:21:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b6so1615030ana.4 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:21:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=XyPSjyglDLCV+9GRMyDpdbWorh586A1xyY0OTBkDF5U=; b=hixgKPLbZtAQhvZGCtHqar499Z8ll0Qy3IpYmMZ9jJXHzu6tBbF1WwUAjTd73hKA7s 2R3wD7a9acatfSXRwXUpVS/phQxQVrSJZyQfP7AIDwwBKyMCuIfNczrauxOxjTUkrIYB 8zIIzH2Gf02jhpsS4/RsMoMKwy12/nm0PEJZM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=A7sjPG+Z5ex7wK7LtKv4soJkDpXfj/ExWjsPh2NvhKp3qu6iEA0EObb6jSm1pdoqI9 lS+3YGlolJwHEUNA6UXrRVITyHrFzcmXOttz1xrj1Oph88dRXJ7ppReG7bh+5KwnCnf0 N1wBuE3/OAZ3ToCfs11aQ05e7qo4jSCRsIs4U= Received: by 10.142.139.14 with SMTP id m14mr5559442wfd.100.1228339286438; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:21:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:21:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812031321g60591e41rcba6d0b8f6c77af3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:21:26 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "John Cowan" In-Reply-To: <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001301c95588$a1a925a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: b96de56dc134bbf4 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=C3=A2=3F?= =?utf-8?q?=3F?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1266077100==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1266077100== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_35765_18102515.1228339286441" ------=_Part_35765_18102515.1228339286441 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1 Mark On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 13:19, John Cowan wrote: > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > > If there are any strenuous objections to Addison's proposed resolutions, > > on this thread, please speak up NOW. > > [I sent a copy of this to Addison directly due to flakiness at ccil.org.] > > Now that my attention has been brought to it, I have to agree that there > is the potential for user confusion between private-use subtag such as > (such as x-foobar) and subtags of other types reserved for private use > such as 'Qaaa'. > > Consistently using the phrases "private-use subtags" and "subtags > reserved for private use" everywhere (almost but not quite true: 2.2.9 > says "designated for private use") and explaining what the difference > is would IMO go a long way to subduing this confusion. Here's proposed > additional text for 2.2.7: > > Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers > to as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as > 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by > the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, > subtags reserved for private use are syntactically language, script, > or region subtags, not private-use subtags. > > -- > John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > [T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin. > Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which his > theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral purpose > in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory may > have important survival value. --Ian Johnston > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_35765_18102515.1228339286441 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline +1

Mark


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 13:19, John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> If there are any strenuous objections to Addison's proposed resolutions,
> on this thread, please speak up NOW.

[I sent a copy of this to Addison directly due to flakiness at ccil.org.]

Now that my attention has been brought to it, I have to agree that there
is the potential for user confusion between private-use subtag such as
(such as x-foobar) and subtags of other types reserved for private use
such as 'Qaaa'.

Consistently using the phrases "private-use subtags" and "subtags
reserved for private use" everywhere (almost but not quite true: 2.2.9
says "designated for private use") and explaining what the difference
is would IMO go a long way to subduing this confusion.  Here's proposed
additional text for 2.2.7:

Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers
to as "subtags reserved for private use".  These are subtags such as
'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by
the underlying ISO standards.  Although their purpose is very similar,
subtags reserved for private use are syntactically language, script,
or region subtags, not private-use subtags.

--
John Cowan    http://ccil.org/~cowan    cowan@ccil.org
[T]here is a Darwinian explanation for the refusal to accept Darwin.
Given the very pessimistic conclusions about moral purpose to which his
theory drives us, and given the importance of a sense of moral purpose
in helping us cope with life, a refusal to believe Darwin's theory may
have important survival value. --Ian Johnston
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_35765_18102515.1228339286441-- --===============1266077100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1266077100==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:28:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C636728C189; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:28:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E22728C189 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:28:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.172 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.172 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.127, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AUWjtsUgxh1L for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FB228C180 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:28:40 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=GOPr7xFR9siiJMbfvdgMyOku+d9rC+sU6i0uYJJzT11WhB0W2I4vKQJQkFEad68U; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.28.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L7zGs-0007cO-AQ for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:28:34 -0500 Message-ID: <000c01c9558e$49e60c60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001301c95588$a1a925a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:29:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e423318cf1bf9539ba98e4ecb6c1a57342350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.28.185 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?iso-8859-1?q?FW=3A__13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=E2?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=3F=3F?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "John Cowan" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:19 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] FW: 13th-hour WG Last Call comments=E2?? ... > Now that my attention has been brought to it, I have to agree that there > is the potential for user confusion between private-use subtag such as > (such as x-foobar) and subtags of other types reserved for private use > such as 'Qaaa'. > > Consistently using the phrases "private-use subtags" and "subtags > reserved for private use" everywhere (almost but not quite true: 2.2.9 > says "designated for private use") and explaining what the difference > is would IMO go a long way to subduing this confusion. Here's proposed > additional text for 2.2.7: > > Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers > to as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as > 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by > the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, > subtags reserved for private use are syntactically language, script, > or region subtags, not private-use subtags. As a technical contributor... This proposed addition seems reasonable and helpful. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:33:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D2F28C1AD; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:33:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E66C228C1AD for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:33:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.268 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.268 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.121, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G8eZemtllMZT for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:33:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E7928C174 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:33:03 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,710,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="93988886" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Dec 2008 21:32:59 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB3LWw63028879 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:32:59 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:32:58 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:32:57 -0800 Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0x0cnVdCUZXOiAgMTN0aC1ob3VyIFdHIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBjb21tZW50c8Oi?= =?utf-8?B?Pz8=?= Thread-Index: AclVjhyKwHssfkktRXu8EgWS5yNnJAAAGYMQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDABDC@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001301c95588$a1a925a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> <000c01c9558e$49e60c60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000c01c9558e$49e60c60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A__13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments=C3=A2=3F?= =?utf-8?q?=3F?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT04pDQoNCkluIGluY29ycG9yYXRpbmcgSm9obidzIHN1Z2dlc3RlZCB0ZXh0 LCBJIG1hZGUgYSBjaGFuZ2UgKHRvIGFkZCB0aGUgcG9pbnQgSSBtYWRlIGVhcmxpZXIgYWJvdXQg dGhlaXIgcHJlc2VuY2UgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5KS4gVGhlIHRleHQgbm93IHJlYWRzOg0KDQot LQ0KPHQgaGFuZ1RleHQ9Ik5vdGU6Ij5Qcml2YXRlLXVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzIHNob3VsZCBub3QgYmUg Y29uZnVzZWQgd2l0aCB3aGF0IHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgcmVmZXJzDQp0byBhcyAic3VidGFncyBy ZXNlcnZlZCBmb3IgcHJpdmF0ZSB1c2UiLiAgVGhlc2UgYXJlIHN1YnRhZ3Mgc3VjaCBhcw0KJ3Fh YScsICdRYWFhJywgb3IgJ0FBJyB0aGF0IGFyZSBkZXNpZ25hdGVkIGFzIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIGNv ZGVzIGJ5DQp0aGUgdW5kZXJseWluZyBJU08gc3RhbmRhcmRzLiAgQWx0aG91Z2ggdGhlaXIgcHVy cG9zZSBpcyB2ZXJ5IHNpbWlsYXIsDQpzdWJ0YWdzIHJlc2VydmVkIGZvciBwcml2YXRlIHVzZSBh cmUgZWFjaCByZXByZXNlbnRlZCBieSBhIHJlY29yZCBvZiB0aGUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgDQp0eXBl IGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBhbmQsIHRodXMsIGFyZSBzeW50YWN0aWNhbGx5ICJsYW5ndWFnZSIs ICJzY3JpcHQiLCBvciAicmVnaW9uIiANCnN1YnRhZ3MsIHJhdGhlciB0aGFuICJwcml2YXRlLXVz ZSIgc3VidGFncy48L3Q+DQotLQ0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFy Y2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVy ZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0t LS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZ10gT24NCj4gQmVoYWxmIE9mIFJhbmR5IFByZXN1aG4NCj4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5 LCBEZWNlbWJlciAwMywgMjAwOCAxOjMwIFBNDQo+IFRvOiBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4g U3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBGVzogMTN0aC1ob3VyIFdHIExhc3QgQ2FsbCBjb21tZW50c8Oi Pz8NCj4gDQo+IEhpIC0NCj4gDQo+ID4gRnJvbTogIkpvaG4gQ293YW4iIDxjb3dhbkBjY2lsLm9y Zz4NCj4gPiBUbzogIlJhbmR5IFByZXN1aG4iIDxyYW5keV9wcmVzdWhuQG1pbmRzcHJpbmcuY29t Pg0KPiA+IENjOiAiTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwIiA8bHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4gPiBTZW50 OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDAzLCAyMDA4IDE6MTkgUE0NCj4gPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTog W0x0cnVdIEZXOiAxM3RoLWhvdXIgV0cgTGFzdCBDYWxsIGNvbW1lbnRzw6I/Pw0KPiAuLi4NCj4g PiBOb3cgdGhhdCBteSBhdHRlbnRpb24gaGFzIGJlZW4gYnJvdWdodCB0byBpdCwgSSBoYXZlIHRv IGFncmVlDQo+IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUNCj4gPiBpcyB0aGUgcG90ZW50aWFsIGZvciB1c2VyIGNvbmZ1 c2lvbiBiZXR3ZWVuIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1YnRhZw0KPiBzdWNoIGFzDQo+ID4gKHN1Y2ggYXMg eC1mb29iYXIpIGFuZCBzdWJ0YWdzIG9mIG90aGVyIHR5cGVzIHJlc2VydmVkIGZvcg0KPiBwcml2 YXRlIHVzZQ0KPiA+IHN1Y2ggYXMgJ1FhYWEnLg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gQ29uc2lzdGVudGx5IHVzaW5n IHRoZSBwaHJhc2VzICJwcml2YXRlLXVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzIiBhbmQgInN1YnRhZ3MNCj4gPiByZXNl cnZlZCBmb3IgcHJpdmF0ZSB1c2UiIGV2ZXJ5d2hlcmUgKGFsbW9zdCBidXQgbm90IHF1aXRlIHRy dWU6DQo+IDIuMi45DQo+ID4gc2F5cyAiZGVzaWduYXRlZCBmb3IgcHJpdmF0ZSB1c2UiKSBhbmQg ZXhwbGFpbmluZyB3aGF0IHRoZQ0KPiBkaWZmZXJlbmNlDQo+ID4gaXMgd291bGQgSU1PIGdvIGEg bG9uZyB3YXkgdG8gc3ViZHVpbmcgdGhpcyBjb25mdXNpb24uICBIZXJlJ3MNCj4gcHJvcG9zZWQN Cj4gPiBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIHRleHQgZm9yIDIuMi43Og0KPiA+DQo+ID4gUHJpdmF0ZS11c2Ugc3Vi dGFncyBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIGNvbmZ1c2VkIHdpdGggd2hhdCB0aGlzDQo+IGRvY3VtZW50IHJl ZmVycw0KPiA+IHRvIGFzICJzdWJ0YWdzIHJlc2VydmVkIGZvciBwcml2YXRlIHVzZSIuICBUaGVz ZSBhcmUgc3VidGFncyBzdWNoDQo+IGFzDQo+ID4gJ3FhYScsICdRYWFhJywgb3IgJ0FBJyB0aGF0 IGFyZSBkZXNpZ25hdGVkIGFzIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIGNvZGVzDQo+IGJ5DQo+ID4gdGhlIHVuZGVy bHlpbmcgSVNPIHN0YW5kYXJkcy4gIEFsdGhvdWdoIHRoZWlyIHB1cnBvc2UgaXMgdmVyeQ0KPiBz aW1pbGFyLA0KPiA+IHN1YnRhZ3MgcmVzZXJ2ZWQgZm9yIHByaXZhdGUgdXNlIGFyZSBzeW50YWN0 aWNhbGx5IGxhbmd1YWdlLA0KPiBzY3JpcHQsDQo+ID4gb3IgcmVnaW9uIHN1YnRhZ3MsIG5vdCBw cml2YXRlLXVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzLg0KPiANCj4gQXMgYSB0ZWNobmljYWwgY29udHJpYnV0b3IuLi4N Cj4gVGhpcyBwcm9wb3NlZCBhZGRpdGlvbiBzZWVtcyByZWFzb25hYmxlIGFuZCBoZWxwZnVsLg0K PiANCj4gUmFuZHkNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBp ZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:55:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB673A69A9; 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d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=7zsz1L8Y1HM+ufeVmeVKaXSblX98gGvYO1eg8LTHoOk=; b=xgdMKUgoK3ZKQkMlMIxMaARJ5QxfES70iE40X0XHB2kZaTk6SPzIwhAnYoOgiRwFvr 9yDXpYu5LOOPV/56oMK5vanYW11BjP8y2VxL6UE4BI6SMPk5uyzyUKsUzitR8QyWlhuX IWw8az9u5CWk2ESSyRZhGHo7faVFWlfyZekoE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=xImzhhS7yumKdb+C3Kzd6QJgce55vM3h8vQgPTqqwU56g4MOk1WB27tYLyOMO49/WP lC7VVVzUR3QJhdJaOADKToAMXpgX5bHkYX0Ro0nGZfJ4TS8RZcFt46mmWCevqjTjLFr4 eesL+e3a1tRRUDSzbSK6FpI2rbU3CJG5qkLCM= Received: by 10.142.14.18 with SMTP id 18mr5562090wfn.215.1228341301292; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:55:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:55:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812031355m2a31b6b1w37ed2fef6d58619d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:55:01 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA933@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812031237u12c2d717of80ce4afde56c176@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAAA8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: c2c7f1be5afd0517 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1348679829==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1348679829== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_36351_9342335.1228341301270" ------=_Part_36351_9342335.1228341301270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I disagree with the procedural point. The prefix field used "extended language range" since July 31, 2007. See: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-07#section-3.1.7 So from July 31, 2007 (#17) up until December 2, 2008 (#19), it was possible to indicate that, say, a variant X should be used with a script tag of 'Latn' or 'Grek' and not others (without having to enumerate all the language subtags that could go with those scripts), or that X should only be used with another variant Y, or that X should only be used with the region 'CH'. Randy suggested changing that in his note of Nov 2. To which Addison supplied suggested text. I objected to that on Nov 4, and supplied suggested text that would retain that ability (without using the extended language tag syntax, which I agree that nobody particularly wants). Nobody further objected to my recommendation. So procedurally, I think it is a bit misleading to characterize this as requiring the full burden of proof on my side, since #19 has a technical change that disallowed a feature that was available for 1 1/2 years in the draft, and a technical change that was made unexpectedly, at the very last moment. So before we'd go further, I'd like to see what harm it causes to allow: Prefix: Latn or Prefix: US etc. That being said, if there are good reasons why this would be a bad idea, I could certainly live with the #19 text, but I'd like to hear why it is a bad idea (or that it required inordinate changes to the text), and not just close it out on what I think are faulty procedural grounds. Mark On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 13:11, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Phillips, Addison" > > To: "Mark Davis" > > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "Martin Duerst" < > duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:42 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD > ... > > We have *always* required full prefixes. If you want something to > > "fall out" or to allow specifying a prefix that doesn't include > > a primary language subtag, we should really use an extended language > > range (because "*-Latn" matches what you want). But we've never > > allowed this sort of generic prefix--- and the text still doesn't > > allow it (elsewhere). > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > I admit to being surprised by the idea of wanting to permit *-Latn > as a prefix. That was one of the reasons why I questioned the > reference to "extended language range". Whether we permit such things > will clearly have cause ripples, and we should be really really > sure that it's worth the cost / risk. While I *can* imagine use cases, > they seem really contrived and leave me unconvinced that we should do > so, particularly at this late juncture. > > As co-chair... > > If we have indeed "required full prefixes" then the burden > of proof at this juncture is on those who would like something else. > Options: > > (1) provide evidence that we have not "required full prefixes" (optional) > (2) provide technical arguments that permitting prefixes that don't > go to the beginning of the tag would provide substantial benefits > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_36351_9342335.1228341301270 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I disagree with the procedural point. The prefix field used "extended language range" since July 31, 2007. See:

So from July 31, 2007 (#17) up until December 2, 2008 (#19), it was possible to indicate that, say, a variant X should be used with a script tag of 'Latn' or 'Grek' and not others (without having to enumerate all the language subtags that could go with those scripts), or that X should only be used with another variant Y, or that X should only be used with the region 'CH'.

Randy suggested changing that in his note of Nov 2. To which Addison supplied suggested text. I objected to that on Nov 4, and supplied suggested text that would retain that ability (without using the extended language tag syntax, which I agree that nobody particularly wants). Nobody further objected to my recommendation.

So procedurally, I think it is a bit misleading to characterize this as requiring the full burden of proof on my side, since #19 has a technical change that disallowed a feature that was available for 1 1/2 years in the draft, and a technical change that was made unexpectedly, at the very last moment.

So before we'd go further, I'd like to see what harm it causes to allow:

Prefix: Latn

or

Prefix: US

etc.

That being said, if there are good reasons why this would be a bad idea, I could certainly live with the #19 text, but I'd like to hear why it is a bad idea (or that it required inordinate changes to the text), and not just close it out on what I think are faulty procedural grounds.

Mark


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 13:11, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD
...
> We have *always* required full prefixes. If you want something to
> "fall out" or to allow specifying a prefix that doesn't include
> a primary language subtag, we should really use an extended language
> range (because "*-Latn" matches what you want). But we've never
> allowed this sort of generic prefix--- and the text still doesn't
> allow it (elsewhere).
...

As a technical contributor...

I admit to being surprised by the idea of wanting to permit *-Latn
as a prefix.  That was one of the reasons why I questioned the
reference to "extended language range".  Whether we permit such things
will clearly have cause ripples, and we should be really really
sure that it's worth the cost / risk.  While I *can* imagine use cases,
they seem really contrived and leave me unconvinced that we should do
so, particularly at this late juncture.

As co-chair...

If we have indeed "required full prefixes" then the burden
of proof at this juncture is on those who would like something else.
Options:

  (1) provide evidence that we have not "required full prefixes" (optional)
  (2) provide technical arguments that permitting prefixes that don't
      go to the beginning of the tag would provide substantial benefits

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_36351_9342335.1228341301270-- --===============1348679829== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1348679829==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 13:57:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE28E3A69CC; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:57:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2705F3A69CC for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:57:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.146 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.146 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.622, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0CcY0bjLBFL1 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.172]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AEC3A69A9 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:57:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 27so3952843wfd.31 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 13:56:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=1Of19JOf3+oegC9h8SlhlP4xPHxoqN7XWQMmciJLI6w=; b=SLyEf6auU0lIud/zRSfuzvn5ZHgmzYXNI3Vm4bM2JF4+LYZpeJmUbval7bxid9g41B 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dj48L2Rpdj48L2Jsb2NrcXVvdGU+PC9kaXY+PGJyPjwvZGl2Pgo= ------=_Part_36390_6932515.1228341416289-- --===============1679726734== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1679726734==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 14:47:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D6E3A69CC; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:47:03 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8963A67DA for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:47:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.373 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.373 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.226, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hJXhGAEfSUFF for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F143A69CC for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 14:47:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1L80Ui-00020s-Ja; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:46:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:46:56 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081203224656.GB28778@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA933@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812031237u12c2d717of80ce4afde56c176@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAAA8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > As co-chair... > > If we have indeed "required full prefixes" then the burden > of proof at this juncture is on those who would like something else. > Options: > > (1) provide evidence that we have not "required full prefixes" (optional) I believe that Mark has answered this. > (2) provide technical arguments that permitting prefixes that don't > go to the beginning of the tag would provide substantial benefits An obvious use case would be in creating variants that make sense with one or more scripts independent of language. For example, "euboean" might be created as a variant subtag for Greek script, and that independent of whether the variant was being used to represent Greek or Etruscan. Similarly, the variant subtag "petrine" might represent the modern variety of Cyrillic (established by Peter the Great), which is applicable to many languages. These could also be handled by script variants in ISO 15924, admittedly, but not all of them are likely to get past the 15924/RA. -- When I'm stuck in something boring John Cowan where reading would be impossible or (who loves Asimov too) rude, I often set up math problems for cowan@ccil.org myself and solve them as a way to pass http://www.ccil.org/~cowan the time. --John Jenkins _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 16:17:34 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7920E3A6BDF; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:34 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 036C528C1B8 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.393, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RLvfUlg4SKjN for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32C653A6BDF for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.46.185) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.291.1; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:27 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.185]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:27 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: LTRU Working Group , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:17:26 -0800 Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W0x0cnVdIEZXOiAxM3RoLWhvdXIgV0cJTGFzdCBDYWxsIGNvbW1lbnRz77+9?= =?utf-8?B?Pz8=?= Thread-Index: AclVjNNlVp5MnCVESCeghInRWVLx0AAGM6EA Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001301c95588$a1a925a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?FW=3A_13th-hour_WG=09Last_Call_comments=EF=BF=BD?= =?utf-8?b?Pz8=?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sm9obidzIHByb3Bvc2VkIHdvcmRpbmcgc2VlbXMgT0sgdG8gbWUuDQoNClBldGVyDQoNCi0tLS0t T3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0 bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBKb2huIENvd2FuDQpTZW50OiBX ZWRuZXNkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDAzLCAyMDA4IDE6MTkgUE0NClRvOiBSYW5keSBQcmVzdWhuDQpD YzogTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIEZXOiAxM3RoLWhvdXIg V0cgTGFzdCBDYWxsIGNvbW1lbnRz77+9Pz8NCg0KUmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiBzY3JpcHNpdDoNCg0K PiBJZiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgYW55IHN0cmVudW91cyBvYmplY3Rpb25zIHRvIEFkZGlzb24ncyBwcm9w b3NlZCByZXNvbHV0aW9ucywNCj4gb24gdGhpcyB0aHJlYWQsIHBsZWFzZSBzcGVhayB1cCBOT1cu DQoNCltJIHNlbnQgYSBjb3B5IG9mIHRoaXMgdG8gQWRkaXNvbiBkaXJlY3RseSBkdWUgdG8gZmxh a2luZXNzIGF0IGNjaWwub3JnLl0NCg0KTm93IHRoYXQgbXkgYXR0ZW50aW9uIGhhcyBiZWVuIGJy b3VnaHQgdG8gaXQsIEkgaGF2ZSB0byBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHRoZXJlDQppcyB0aGUgcG90ZW50aWFs IGZvciB1c2VyIGNvbmZ1c2lvbiBiZXR3ZWVuIHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1YnRhZyBzdWNoIGFzDQoo c3VjaCBhcyB4LWZvb2JhcikgYW5kIHN1YnRhZ3Mgb2Ygb3RoZXIgdHlwZXMgcmVzZXJ2ZWQgZm9y IHByaXZhdGUgdXNlDQpzdWNoIGFzICdRYWFhJy4NCg0KQ29uc2lzdGVudGx5IHVzaW5nIHRoZSBw aHJhc2VzICJwcml2YXRlLXVzZSBzdWJ0YWdzIiBhbmQgInN1YnRhZ3MNCnJlc2VydmVkIGZvciBw cml2YXRlIHVzZSIgZXZlcnl3aGVyZSAoYWxtb3N0IGJ1dCBub3QgcXVpdGUgdHJ1ZTogMi4yLjkN CnNheXMgImRlc2lnbmF0ZWQgZm9yIHByaXZhdGUgdXNlIikgYW5kIGV4cGxhaW5pbmcgd2hhdCB0 aGUgZGlmZmVyZW5jZQ0KaXMgd291bGQgSU1PIGdvIGEgbG9uZyB3YXkgdG8gc3ViZHVpbmcgdGhp cyBjb25mdXNpb24uICBIZXJlJ3MgcHJvcG9zZWQNCmFkZGl0aW9uYWwgdGV4dCBmb3IgMi4yLjc6 DQoNClByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1YnRhZ3Mgc2hvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBjb25mdXNlZCB3aXRoIHdoYXQg dGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCByZWZlcnMNCnRvIGFzICJzdWJ0YWdzIHJlc2VydmVkIGZvciBwcml2YXRl IHVzZSIuICBUaGVzZSBhcmUgc3VidGFncyBzdWNoIGFzDQoncWFhJywgJ1FhYWEnLCBvciAnQUEn IHRoYXQgYXJlIGRlc2lnbmF0ZWQgYXMgcHJpdmF0ZS11c2UgY29kZXMgYnkNCnRoZSB1bmRlcmx5 aW5nIElTTyBzdGFuZGFyZHMuICBBbHRob3VnaCB0aGVpciBwdXJwb3NlIGlzIHZlcnkgc2ltaWxh ciwNCnN1YnRhZ3MgcmVzZXJ2ZWQgZm9yIHByaXZhdGUgdXNlIGFyZSBzeW50YWN0aWNhbGx5IGxh bmd1YWdlLCBzY3JpcHQsDQpvciByZWdpb24gc3VidGFncywgbm90IHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIHN1YnRh Z3MuDQoNCi0tDQpKb2huIENvd2FuICAgIGh0dHA6Ly9jY2lsLm9yZy9+Y293YW4gICAgY293YW5A Y2NpbC5vcmcNCltUXWhlcmUgaXMgYSBEYXJ3aW5pYW4gZXhwbGFuYXRpb24gZm9yIHRoZSByZWZ1 c2FsIHRvIGFjY2VwdCBEYXJ3aW4uDQpHaXZlbiB0aGUgdmVyeSBwZXNzaW1pc3RpYyBjb25jbHVz aW9ucyBhYm91dCBtb3JhbCBwdXJwb3NlIHRvIHdoaWNoIGhpcw0KdGhlb3J5IGRyaXZlcyB1cywg YW5kIGdpdmVuIHRoZSBpbXBvcnRhbmNlIG9mIGEgc2Vuc2Ugb2YgbW9yYWwgcHVycG9zZQ0KaW4g aGVscGluZyB1cyBjb3BlIHdpdGggbGlmZSwgYSByZWZ1c2FsIHRvIGJlbGlldmUgRGFyd2luJ3Mg dGhlb3J5IG1heQ0KaGF2ZSBpbXBvcnRhbnQgc3Vydml2YWwgdmFsdWUuIC0tSWFuIEpvaG5zdG9u DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTHRydSBt YWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 16:23:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C44BA3A6BE7; 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Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:22:30 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk1-exhub-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.46.186]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:22:30 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:22:28 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) Thread-Index: AclVi458ZsEGY60FT3S/NLU2jOHm+QAGkjmQ Message-ID: References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA933@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812031237u12c2d717of80ce4afde56c176@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAAA8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhlIHVzZSBjYXNlcyBhcmVuJ3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgYWxsIHRoYXQgY29udHJpdmVkOiBzb21l dGhpbmcgbGlrZSAiKi1MYXRuIiBpcyBwcmVjaXNlbHkgdGhlIGtpbmQgb2YgcHJlZml4IHRoYXQg d291bGQgYmUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgZm9yIGEgdmFyaWFudCBzdWJ0YWcgc3VjaCBhcyAiZm9uaXBh IiB0aGF0IHJlcHJlc2VudHMgd3JpdGluZy1zeXN0ZW0gdmFyaWF0aW9uIGFzIG9wcG9zZWQgdG8g YSBsaW5ndWlzdGljIHZhcmlhdGlvbi4gQnV0IEkgdGhpbmsgdGhpcyB3YXMgZGlzY3Vzc2VkIHNv bWUgbW9udGhzIGFnbyBhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGVyZSB3YXMgbm90IGEgY29uc2Vuc3VzIHRvIGludHJv ZHVjZSB0aGF0IGNoYW5nZSBhdCB0aGlzIHBvaW50LiAoSSB0aGluayBJIHN1cHBvcnRlZCBpdCwg YnV0IGF0IHRoaXMgdGltZSBJIHRoaW5rIHNoaXBwaW5nIGlzIGEgaGlnaGVyIHByaW9yaXR5LikN Cg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KDQoNCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGx0cnUt Ym91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxm IE9mIFJhbmR5IFByZXN1aG4NClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgRGVjZW1iZXIgMDMsIDIwMDggMTox MiBQTQ0KVG86IGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNClN1YmplY3Q6IFtMdHJ1XSByZXF1aXJpbmcgZnVsbCBw cmVmaXhlcyAoV2FzOiBSZTogSGFuZC1vZmYgdG8gQUQpDQoNCkhpIC0NCg0KPiBGcm9tOiAiUGhp bGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24iIDxhZGRpc29uQGFtYXpvbi5jb20+DQo+IFRvOiAiTWFyayBEYXZpcyIg PG1hcmtAbWFjY2hpYXRvLmNvbT4NCj4gQ2M6ICJSYW5keSBQcmVzdWhuIiA8cmFuZHlfcHJlc3Vo bkBtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT47ICJNYXJ0aW4gRHVlcnN0IiA8ZHVlcnN0QGl0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5q cD47IDxsdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnPg0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDAzLCAyMDA4 IDEyOjQyIFBNDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJFOiBbTHRydV0gSGFuZC1vZmYgdG8gQUQNCi4uLg0KPiBX ZSBoYXZlICphbHdheXMqIHJlcXVpcmVkIGZ1bGwgcHJlZml4ZXMuIElmIHlvdSB3YW50IHNvbWV0 aGluZyB0bw0KPiDigJxmYWxsIG91dOKAnSBvciB0byBhbGxvdyBzcGVjaWZ5aW5nIGEgcHJlZml4 IHRoYXQgZG9lc27igJl0IGluY2x1ZGUNCj4gYSBwcmltYXJ5IGxhbmd1YWdlIHN1YnRhZywgd2Ug c2hvdWxkIHJlYWxseSB1c2UgYW4gZXh0ZW5kZWQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UNCj4gcmFuZ2UgKGJlY2F1c2Ug 4oCcKi1MYXRu4oCdIG1hdGNoZXMgd2hhdCB5b3Ugd2FudCkuIEJ1dCB3ZeKAmXZlIG5ldmVyDQo+ IGFsbG93ZWQgdGhpcyBzb3J0IG9mIGdlbmVyaWMgcHJlZml4LS0tIGFuZCB0aGUgdGV4dCBzdGls bCBkb2VzbuKAmXQNCj4gYWxsb3cgaXQgKGVsc2V3aGVyZSkuDQouLi4NCg0KQXMgYSB0ZWNobmlj YWwgY29udHJpYnV0b3IuLi4NCg0KSSBhZG1pdCB0byBiZWluZyBzdXJwcmlzZWQgYnkgdGhlIGlk ZWEgb2Ygd2FudGluZyB0byBwZXJtaXQgKi1MYXRuDQphcyBhIHByZWZpeC4gIFRoYXQgd2FzIG9u ZSBvZiB0aGUgcmVhc29ucyB3aHkgSSBxdWVzdGlvbmVkIHRoZQ0KcmVmZXJlbmNlIHRvICJleHRl bmRlZCBsYW5ndWFnZSByYW5nZSIuICBXaGV0aGVyIHdlIHBlcm1pdCBzdWNoIHRoaW5ncw0Kd2ls bCBjbGVhcmx5IGhhdmUgY2F1c2UgcmlwcGxlcywgYW5kIHdlIHNob3VsZCBiZSByZWFsbHkgcmVh bGx5DQpzdXJlIHRoYXQgaXQncyB3b3J0aCB0aGUgY29zdCAvIHJpc2suICBXaGlsZSBJICpjYW4q IGltYWdpbmUgdXNlIGNhc2VzLA0KdGhleSBzZWVtIHJlYWxseSBjb250cml2ZWQgYW5kIGxlYXZl IG1lIHVuY29udmluY2VkIHRoYXQgd2Ugc2hvdWxkIGRvDQpzbywgcGFydGljdWxhcmx5IGF0IHRo aXMgbGF0ZSBqdW5jdHVyZS4NCg0KQXMgY28tY2hhaXIuLi4NCg0KSWYgd2UgaGF2ZSBpbmRlZWQg InJlcXVpcmVkIGZ1bGwgcHJlZml4ZXMiIHRoZW4gdGhlIGJ1cmRlbg0Kb2YgcHJvb2YgYXQgdGhp cyBqdW5jdHVyZSBpcyBvbiB0aG9zZSB3aG8gd291bGQgbGlrZSBzb21ldGhpbmcgZWxzZS4NCk9w dGlvbnM6DQoNCiAgICgxKSBwcm92aWRlIGV2aWRlbmNlIHRoYXQgd2UgaGF2ZSBub3QgInJlcXVp cmVkIGZ1bGwgcHJlZml4ZXMiIChvcHRpb25hbCkNCiAgICgyKSBwcm92aWRlIHRlY2huaWNhbCBh cmd1bWVudHMgdGhhdCBwZXJtaXR0aW5nIHByZWZpeGVzIHRoYXQgZG9uJ3QNCiAgICAgICBnbyB0 byB0aGUgYmVnaW5uaW5nIG9mIHRoZSB0YWcgd291bGQgcHJvdmlkZSBzdWJzdGFudGlhbCBiZW5l Zml0cw0KDQpSYW5keQ0KDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 16:53:03 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAED23A67AD; 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d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Nc6qh2K8etnzQEgeAZ3OL5+PX9S08kqecqRuI1Si6gU=; b=OoRTK7vB1Ew1k3KJ5N3vWveHp2DXmzIEUrV6IzRrp0cSoPu6//o6+USLCf8WmybNVU TaIfznKqtJ+vs3JymMrliYASwzKxmBmLhxnvysJByWp+gH1YuDuaFofJITFPsqaCJzXu 1CQAWbXBLT3FEYIp6LVjPJ0H+4KiOMWCu/HBI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=a+yF5PYBGotBl7OvwNJHv/H6EsfUPLPs3dB4pJus6Efz+6WDbd9HFo9yPZH/uW1kMH 8pyjL4ENITyEUjApJ+W07au1l3dXjy6iD2Gnh9fCjJu8im2bXSK7sBHk1GS+pa0S6fHO kuv9fkH1/VEtdYWsTuCfSFoh5xXZUzwwHtVGk= Received: by 10.100.125.12 with SMTP id x12mr8170552anc.4.1228351976639; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 16:52:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:52:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812031652s7dc082feqcb0f211da0ad92f3@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 16:52:56 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Peter Constable" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA933@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812031237u12c2d717of80ce4afde56c176@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAAA8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 55301eea9b93bccd Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0139134516==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0139134516== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_11541_30191166.1228351976641" ------=_Part_11541_30191166.1228351976641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, *no* change would be the text in http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18#section-3.1.8 Is that what you are suggesting? Mark On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 16:22, Peter Constable wrote: > The use cases aren't necessarily all that contrived: something like > "*-Latn" is precisely the kind of prefix that would be appropriate for a > variant subtag such as "fonipa" that represents writing-system variation as > opposed to a linguistic variation. But I think this was discussed some > months ago and that there was not a consensus to introduce that change at > this point. (I think I supported it, but at this time I think shipping is a > higher priority.) > > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:12 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) > > Hi - > > > From: "Phillips, Addison" > > To: "Mark Davis" > > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "Martin Duerst" < > duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:42 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD > ... > > We have *always* required full prefixes. If you want something to > > "fall out" or to allow specifying a prefix that doesn't include > > a primary language subtag, we should really use an extended language > > range (because "*-Latn" matches what you want). But we've never > > allowed this sort of generic prefix--- and the text still doesn't > > allow it (elsewhere). > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > I admit to being surprised by the idea of wanting to permit *-Latn > as a prefix. That was one of the reasons why I questioned the > reference to "extended language range". Whether we permit such things > will clearly have cause ripples, and we should be really really > sure that it's worth the cost / risk. While I *can* imagine use cases, > they seem really contrived and leave me unconvinced that we should do > so, particularly at this late juncture. > > As co-chair... > > If we have indeed "required full prefixes" then the burden > of proof at this juncture is on those who would like something else. > Options: > > (1) provide evidence that we have not "required full prefixes" (optional) > (2) provide technical arguments that permitting prefixes that don't > go to the beginning of the tag would provide substantial benefits > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_11541_30191166.1228351976641 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Well, *no* change would be the text in 


Is that what you are suggesting?

Mark


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 16:22, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote:
The use cases aren't necessarily all that contrived: something like "*-Latn" is precisely the kind of prefix that would be appropriate for a variant subtag such as "fonipa" that represents writing-system variation as opposed to a linguistic variation. But I think this was discussed some months ago and that there was not a consensus to introduce that change at this point. (I think I supported it, but at this time I think shipping is a higher priority.)


Peter



-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:12 PM
To: ltru@ietf.org
Subject: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD)

Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "Martin Duerst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 12:42 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD
...
> We have *always* required full prefixes. If you want something to
> "fall out" or to allow specifying a prefix that doesn't include
> a primary language subtag, we should really use an extended language
> range (because "*-Latn" matches what you want). But we've never
> allowed this sort of generic prefix--- and the text still doesn't
> allow it (elsewhere).
...

As a technical contributor...

I admit to being surprised by the idea of wanting to permit *-Latn
as a prefix.  That was one of the reasons why I questioned the
reference to "extended language range".  Whether we permit such things
will clearly have cause ripples, and we should be really really
sure that it's worth the cost / risk.  While I *can* imagine use cases,
they seem really contrived and leave me unconvinced that we should do
so, particularly at this late juncture.

As co-chair...

If we have indeed "required full prefixes" then the burden
of proof at this juncture is on those who would like something else.
Options:

  (1) provide evidence that we have not "required full prefixes" (optional)
  (2) provide technical arguments that permitting prefixes that don't
      go to the beginning of the tag would provide substantial benefits

Randy


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------=_Part_11541_30191166.1228351976641-- --===============0139134516== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0139134516==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 17:16:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E46E93A67D7; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:16:10 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03C6C3A67D7 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:16:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.267, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3A11DGMfM0kp for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:16:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D423A67AD for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:16:08 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=hlFj72ENOND7gTJfTGyb6LWt/JmQJEeK5G54leI58gKsA5hPTTaJcaoXLYxxdQr7; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.28.185] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L82p2-00014K-L0 for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:16:04 -0500 Message-ID: <005d01c955ae$0e721dc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA933@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812031237u12c2d717of80ce4afde56c176@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAAA8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812031355m2a31b6b1w37ed2fef6d58619d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:17:17 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4eb7102e03ab3b8b8428cd2338d347e1a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.28.185 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 1:55 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) > > I disagree with the procedural point. The > prefix field used "extended language range" since July 31, 2007. See: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-07#section-3.1.7 > > So from July 31, 2007 (#17) up until December 2, 2008 > (#19), it was possible to indicate that, say, a variant X should be used > with a script tag of 'Latn' or 'Grek' and not others (without having to > enumerate all the language subtags that could go with those scripts), or > that X should only be used with another variant Y, or that X should only be > used with the region 'CH'. > > Randy suggested changing that in his note of Nov 2. To which Addison supplied > suggested text. I objected to that on Nov 4, and supplied suggested text > that would retain that ability (without using the extended language tag > syntax, which I agree that nobody particularly wants). Nobody further > objected to my recommendation. > > So procedurally, I think it is a bit misleading to characterize this as > requiring the full burden of proof on my side, since #19 has a technical > change that disallowed a feature that was available for 1 1/2 years in the > draft, and a technical change that was made unexpectedly, at the very last > moment. As co-chair, I overrule the procedural objection. I searched the archive, and as far as I can determine, the introduction of "extended language range" in http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg07943.html included no discussion of the implications of wildcarding. The discussion appears to be entirely of ensuring that subtags appear in the correct order, and that the introduction of intervening subtags not be disallowed. If there was any discussion that might be interpreted as a WG consensus to support non-initial prefixes, I missed it and would appreciate a pointer. Since I have commented on this issue as a technical contributor, you may appeal to co-chair Martin; I'd accept whatever his decision might be. > So before we'd go further, I'd like to see what harm it causes to allow: > > Prefix: Latn > > or > > Prefix: US > > etc. > > That being said, if there are good reasons why this would be a bad idea, I > could certainly live with the #19 text, but I'd like to hear why it is a bad > idea (or that it required inordinate changes to the text), and not just > close it out on what I think are faulty procedural grounds. I'd just like to see closure one way or the other. As far as I've been able to determine, support for things like "Prefix: US" was an unintended consequence of using "extended language range" to address the subtag ordering requirement. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 17:20:47 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1032B3A681F; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:20:47 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70893A681F for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:20:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.677 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.677 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.022, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rf8ckm7hYNR5 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s9.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s9.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.84]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7FAD3A677D for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:20:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W1 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s9.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:20:36 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 20:20:36 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAB5F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <30b660a20812031016n51a820aepe9136266998e15f8@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20812031251h17dedef1y4d26cecbd2553646@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDAB5F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Dec 2008 01:20:36.0591 (UTC) FILETIME=[82EB77F0:01C955AE] Subject: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?_RE=3A__13th-hour_WG_Last_Call_comments?= =?windows-1256?q?=FE=FE--Off-list?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0153754091==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0153754091== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_89474d8d-88b9-4ea0-ae1f-e153cde5c67b_" --_89474d8d-88b9-4ea0-ae1f-e153cde5c67b_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi!I do like John Cowan's note for section 2.7 which Addison has revised slightly. However section 2.7 seems a bit late in the draft & I wish this clarification could come earlier (of course John's right: 2.7 is the section that deals with private use subtags). Alternatively, would it be possible to put this comment where I originally had it, section 2.2; page 8; par 5? Section 2.2; page 8; par 5 Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags defined elsewhere in this document. These sequences are introduced by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows: INSERT HANG NOTE (for the phrase, "private use") > Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refersto as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes bythe underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar,subtags reserved for private use are each represented by a record of the appropriate type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", or "region" subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags. > From: addison@amazon.com> To: mark@macchiato.com; cewcathar@hotmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:14:38 -0800> > Thanks, Mark, for forwarding.> > Responses follow.> > Addison> > ===> >> Somehow it was not clear to me from the draft that the reserved sequences for private language subtags are all registered; I think you could say this somewhere in the draft clearly, as early as possible; I'll try to think of where when I'm using a free computer again> > If anyone actually uses the specification, they know that all and only those subtags that are in the registry are usable, and those subtags *are* in the registry. However, I wouldn't object to a statement that emphasizes that for private use subtags.> > AP> (editor hat OFF) I wouldn't object to such a statement, but more tinkering isn't necessarily going to improve the document much. There are statements that say these things already. Putting more of them in just invites people to not see them in additional places :-).> > So given the late date, I'd just suggest leaving them alone. If Addison is up for incorporating them, I'm ok with that. But it means that we all have to look very carefully at any changes to make sure that there are no regressions, and I don't think any of these issues are important enough for that. Others may disagree.> > AP> (editor hat OFF) +1 to Mark's comment. I'm not against incorporating comments, but will only do so in a very selective manner. Editorial comments are mostly beyond the pale now, since, in many cases, the text that is here is not "my text" or "Mark's text" but rather "negotiated text" agreed to on this list by many people. You or I might not have written it exactly that way, but collectively it is somehow what we agreed to.Agreed. Sorry that I waited till this late date to respond to the draft.C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com (My apologies if I sent my original reply directly to Mark Davis and not to the entire list; Mark inadvertently did not click t he [reply all] button when he first sent the reply, and I replied back directly to him, thinking that my comments would not be used and so that this discussion was all off-list, and I changed the subject heading of the email slightly. Sorry.) --_89474d8d-88b9-4ea0-ae1f-e153cde5c67b_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hi!

I do like John Cowan's note for section 2.7 which Addison has revised slightly.  However section 2.7 seems a bit late in the draft & I wish this clarification could come earlier (of course John's right: 2.7 is the section that deals with private use subtags).
 
Alternatively, would it be possible to put this comment where I originally had it, section 2.2; page 8; par 5?
 
Section 2.2; page 8; par 5
 
Sequences of private use and extension subtags MUST occur at the end   of the sequence of subtags and MUST NOT be interspersed with subtags   defined elsewhere in this document.  These sequences are introduced   by single-character subtags, which are reserved as follows:
 
 
INSERT HANG NOTE (for the phrase, "private use") >
<t hangText="Note:">Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers
to as "subtags reserved for private use".  These are subtags such as
'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by
the underlying ISO standards.  Although their purpose is very similar,
subtags reserved for private use are each represented by a record of the appropriate
type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", or "region"
subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags.</t>

 

> From: addison@amazon.com
> To: mark@macchiato.com; cewcathar@hotmail.com

> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 13:14:38 -0800
>
> Thanks, Mark, for forwarding.
>
> Responses follow.
>
> Addison
>
> ===
>
>> Somehow it was not clear to me from the draft that the reserved sequences for private language subtags are all registered; I think you could say this somewhere in the draft clearly, as early as possible; I'll try to think of where when I'm using a free computer again
>
> If anyone actually uses the specification, they know that all and only those subtags that are in the registry are usable, and those subtags *are* in the registry. However, I wouldn't object to a statement that emphasizes that for private use subtags.
>
> AP> (editor hat OFF) I wouldn't object to such a statement, but more tinkering isn't necessarily going to improve the document much. There are statements that say these things already. Putting more of them in just invites people to not see them in additional places :-).
>  
> So given the late date, I'd just suggest leaving them alone. If Addison is up for incorporating them, I'm ok with that. But it means that we all have to look very carefully at any changes to make sure that there are no regressions, and I don't think any of these issues are important enough for that. Others may disagree.
>
> AP> (editor hat OFF) +1 to Mark's comment. I'm not against incorporating comments, but will only do so in a very selective manner. Editorial comments are mostly beyond the pale now, since, in many cases, the text that is here is not "my text" or "Mark's text" but rather "negotiated text" agreed to on this list by many people. You or I might not have written it exactly that way, but collectively it is somehow what we agreed to.
Agreed. Sorry that I waited till this late date to respond to the draft.




C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 
(My apologies if I sent my original reply directly to Mark Davis and not to the entire list; Mark inadvertently did not click the [reply all] button when he first sent the reply, and I replied back directly to him, thinking that my comments would not be used and so that this discussion was all off-list, and I changed the subject heading of the email slightly.  Sorry.)

--_89474d8d-88b9-4ea0-ae1f-e153cde5c67b_-- --===============0153754091== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0153754091==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 18:36:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764283A6862; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:36:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 331303A6862 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:36:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.455, BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Vyahd6En0sQ4 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5FE313A6407 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 18:36:39 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 26302 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2008 02:36:34 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.44) with ESMTP; 04 Dec 2008 02:36:29 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:36:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IFdpdGggCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9pbnRlcm5ldC1kcmFm dHMvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMtMTkudHh0IGFuZCAKPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NWJpcy0wOC50eHQgbm93IAo+ IGF2YWlsYWJsZSwgd2UgcGxhbiB0byBoYW5kIHRoZXNlIHRvIG91ciBBRCBpbiB0aGUgbmV4dCBm ZXcgZGF5cyBmb3IgCj4gY29uc2lkZXJhdGlvbiBieSB0aGUgSUVTRyBmb3IgcHVibGljYXRpb24g YXMgUkZDcywgcmVwbGFjaW5nIHRoZSAKPiBjdXJyZW50IFJGQyA0NjQ1IGFuZCBSRkMgNDY0Ni4K CkknbSBkZWxpZ2h0ZWQgdG8gc2VlIHRoaXMgZGF5IGZpbmFsbHkgY29tZS4KCj4gSWYgeW91IHNw 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<002901c9558b$b77ff040$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812031652s7dc082feqcb0f211da0ad92f3@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20812031652s7dc082feqcb0f211da0ad92f3@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes (Was: Re: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0632111625==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0632111625== Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579566D67247E0NAEXMSGC117re_" --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB83579566D67247E0NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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X-Spam-Score: -1.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.594, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zdab1B-jLGyY for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AC0F63A689A for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 21:24:20 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 24764 invoked from network); 4 Dec 2008 05:24:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.183) with ESMTP; 04 Dec 2008 05:24:15 -0000 Message-ID: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:24:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SSBhbSBzaW1wbHkgYW1hemVkIHRoYXQgYXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSBvZiB0aGUgZ2FtZSwgd2UgYXJl IHN0aWxsIApjb25zaWRlcmluZyB0ZWNobmljYWwgY2hhbmdlcyB0byB3aGF0IGlzIGFuZCBpcyBu b3QgYWxsb3dlZCBpbiB0aGUgClJlZ2lzdHJ5LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24s IENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxp Yy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRt bApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdl cyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0 cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 3 22:39:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8349C3A67E2; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:39:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFAE3A67E2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:39:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.259 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.259 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.283, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Em0lwDDK+jwk for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com (rv-out-0506.google.com [209.85.198.239]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78B3D3A677D for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:39:50 -0800 (PST) Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id b25so3734770rvf.49 for ; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:39:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=Yr9oY9QQs+J+JdCYIjr2PeDFrNz/lNrSDotEGzNe8KA=; b=a//2w0zn84KktWz2DFxciG5vBHEGD0JagfBRTWsnH0NdTLv1fn9E2PaYdwcJJuuD9U xGLPdPYHTEU0Ld1iUe3gC3QS4yQK/NAAVFNRWE0T+Tu74UFZdPddSim5S3QmaRLxb/v7 JZwzR5D+oSVtQJN38319umLIciIMxEoje/sJ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=tAkbbdiQI0N7GuY8zvaHXI5Ky3tOpA8/0+yvH1fZJjnKGX7H8gSHN25TxTFcaetGHk qKyYi/eNUWNuvQd9iC4EHj7zitjV+9atfvohnvhgqSgeJG+dZIFINzS1UZ+cvpgVPysE lraRH2pVjpapiuWH9Ant7gfBxe/60W8kjnsxY= Received: by 10.143.3.7 with SMTP id f7mr5760982wfi.92.1228372785739; Wed, 03 Dec 2008 22:39:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:39:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 22:39:45 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Doug Ewell" In-Reply-To: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8c2baa3e80b47c63 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list 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ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2FF83A67E2; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:04:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F3483A67E2 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:04:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJC-JLaAOBpY for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:04:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44F633A67B6 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:04:55 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=I7yQNPZjOhvlCuU72VIOJamUgmWdWY8KW5UvamKlKtJacbF2uTkgupXujh+j8lf3; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.204.56] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L88GO-0005ep-Oj for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:04:41 -0500 Message-ID: <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 23:05:09 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e41564e07020d84833ed0eecc78d702a04350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.204.56 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:39 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > The problem is that we changed something two days ago that had been stable > for 1 1/2 years. So "no technical change" would be to revert to the #18 > text. > So we have a bit of a problem. I don't think anyone is wedded to extension > syntax, but I think we do have to have at least some discussion about why we > should forbid a capability that we've had as part of the draft for 1 1/2 > years. As a technical contributor... I agree that there doesn't seem to be anyone arguing specifically for the extension syntax. I think the question is whether we actually *intended* there to be the "non-initial prefix" capability that resulted as a side-effect (as I see it) of the use of that syntax to accomplish subtag ordering. That this capability seems to have only fairly recently been "discovered" calls into question whether there was actually a WG consensus for it. I don't think anything terrible results whether we do it one way or the other. I considered at some length whether it would be helpful with something like -fonipa for indicating "schools" of transcription and so on. My experience is that transcriptions always end up being "tuned" to a particular language, so I'm skeptical of whether non-initial prefixes would really be useful. But I haven't thought of anything terrible that would happen if we allowed them. > But I'm happy for Martin to rule on this one. As am I. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 07:52:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283F13A6AA3; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:52:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A13933A6989 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:52:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.483 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.483 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LstM5fK5YroY for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:52:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 874EA3A6AA3 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:52:10 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,715,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="171230123" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Dec 2008 15:52:03 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB4Fq23Z017333; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 15:52:02 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:52:02 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 07:52:01 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes Thread-Index: AclV3p1JkvZsc+DPSjSRl0OYb8G4MAAR28ag Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Since I proposed the use of "extended language range" in the first place: - It was NOT intended to allow non-initial prefix registrations. My intention was to simplify the description of both the field's value and the process of matching it to the recommended tag. Basically, I had an insight that what we were describing was a form of extended filtering. - I don't think it was the working group's intention to allow non-initial ranges. This can been seen in the fact that we added text banning the wildcard when someone (Randy, I think) pointed out that the text didn't actually ban wildcards. It is interesting to find that the text, aside from the ban on wildcards, doesn't ban the use of ranges to modify other subtags. If we only remove the ban on '*', we get variants that modify script, region, or generic variants. However, we *did* ban the wildcard in draft #18, so if we revert as Mark suggests, we don't get what he's asking for. The proposed text I sent along yesterday is clearly better, so I would support its inclusion in place of draft #18. If a consensus exists to allow non-initial prefix capabilities, we should also revisit text about generic variants and ensure that the whole is still sensible. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:05 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > To: "Doug Ewell" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > > > The problem is that we changed something two days ago that had > been stable > > for 1 1/2 years. So "no technical change" would be to revert to > the #18 > > text. > > So we have a bit of a problem. I don't think anyone is wedded to > extension > > syntax, but I think we do have to have at least some discussion > about why we > > should forbid a capability that we've had as part of the draft > for 1 1/2 > > years. > > As a technical contributor... > > I agree that there doesn't seem to be anyone arguing specifically > for > the extension syntax. I think the question is whether we actually > *intended* there to be the "non-initial prefix" capability that > resulted as a side-effect (as I see it) of the use of that syntax > to accomplish subtag ordering. That this capability seems to have > only fairly recently been "discovered" calls into question whether > there was actually a WG consensus for it. I don't think anything > terrible results whether we do it one way or the other. > > I considered at some length whether it would be helpful with > something > like -fonipa for indicating "schools" of transcription and so on. > My experience is that transcriptions always end up being "tuned" to > a particular language, so I'm skeptical of whether non-initial > prefixes > would really be useful. But I haven't thought of anything terrible > that would happen if we allowed them. > > > But I'm happy for Martin to rule on this one. > > As am I. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 11:00:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C05A3A6A0C; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:00:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF1503A69FD for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:00:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.857 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.857 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.258, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NJrODUlE46su for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:00:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9903A3A67B2 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:00:51 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,715,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="149847851" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Dec 2008 19:00:40 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB4J0dxZ006051 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Dec 2008 19:00:40 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:00:30 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Phillips, Addison" , Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:00:28 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes Thread-Index: AclV3p1JkvZsc+DPSjSRl0OYb8G4MAAR28agAAbi2OA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A2EDF@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I have posted an "editor's copy" draft-20 on Inter-Locale. Diff links are available. I corrected a problem with the generation of draft-19, vis: I didn't generate the TOC because the tool changed the format of the directive. The changes in this document include: 1. Generation of the TOC 2. Addition of John Cowan's suggested text regarding private-use subtags vs. private use subtag sequences (with my modifications). 3. Correction of the typo on 'extension'. 4. A rewrite of the description of the 'Prefix' field on page 25 as previously discussed on this list. 5. A rewrite of Section 3.1.8 (Prefix Field). The rewrite itself has been discussed on this list, but this specific text has not been previously posted. 6. References now appear sorted (same cause as TOC generation) Links follow: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.xml http://tinyurl.com/5t2nhb (side-by-side diff) http://tinyurl.com/5zmsmo (hwdiff, that is, a full diff) Is there anything missing from this version? Any comments on the specific texts that were changed? Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:52 AM > To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > Since I proposed the use of "extended language range" in the first > place: > > - It was NOT intended to allow non-initial prefix registrations. My > intention was to simplify the description of both the field's value > and the process of matching it to the recommended tag. Basically, I > had an insight that what we were describing was a form of extended > filtering. > > - I don't think it was the working group's intention to allow non- > initial ranges. This can been seen in the fact that we added text > banning the wildcard when someone (Randy, I think) pointed out that > the text didn't actually ban wildcards. > > It is interesting to find that the text, aside from the ban on > wildcards, doesn't ban the use of ranges to modify other subtags. > If we only remove the ban on '*', we get variants that modify > script, region, or generic variants. However, we *did* ban the > wildcard in draft #18, so if we revert as Mark suggests, we don't > get what he's asking for. The proposed text I sent along yesterday > is clearly better, so I would support its inclusion in place of > draft #18. If a consensus exists to allow non-initial prefix > capabilities, we should also revisit text about generic variants > and ensure that the whole is still sensible. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:05 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > > > Hi - > > > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > > To: "Doug Ewell" > > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:39 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > > > > > The problem is that we changed something two days ago that had > > been stable > > > for 1 1/2 years. So "no technical change" would be to revert to > > the #18 > > > text. > > > So we have a bit of a problem. I don't think anyone is wedded > to > > extension > > > syntax, but I think we do have to have at least some discussion > > about why we > > > should forbid a capability that we've had as part of the draft > > for 1 1/2 > > > years. > > > > As a technical contributor... > > > > I agree that there doesn't seem to be anyone arguing specifically > > for > > the extension syntax. I think the question is whether we > actually > > *intended* there to be the "non-initial prefix" capability that > > resulted as a side-effect (as I see it) of the use of that syntax > > to accomplish subtag ordering. That this capability seems to have > > only fairly recently been "discovered" calls into question > whether > > there was actually a WG consensus for it. I don't think anything > > terrible results whether we do it one way or the other. > > > > I considered at some length whether it would be helpful with > > something > > like -fonipa for indicating "schools" of transcription and so on. > > My experience is that transcriptions always end up being "tuned" > to > > a particular language, so I'm skeptical of whether non-initial > > prefixes > > would really be useful. But I haven't thought of anything > terrible > > that would happen if we allowed them. > > > > > But I'm happy for Martin to rule on this one. > > > > As am I. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 11:36:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37FD03A6876; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7598E3A6876 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:36:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqdX1fUC+sgh for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from qw-out-2122.google.com (qw-out-2122.google.com [74.125.92.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028373A682B for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:36:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by qw-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id 3so1167356qwe.31 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 11:36:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=QJWmSY4B2wuYJ1PNy56A74qz1yrl7KgKsfMb6BeZffA=; b=uQptHTMojp+XMY1cLhDDsL/BjZ3npF1xhZJwEw5ha5c4EF1Fqgkm7DYLMwyePDNpze B8hg02tvUxs8IIrwzjL81zj8C+kS/Gu6ESIai8dgqOUraWVl0LlcYrLH4KTwGKFEXG76 yLXBuiqfc8ukGy0TDQHpk6DT6bRFni30+lPdc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references:x-google-sender-auth; b=qiDozcIWz8mU/Cakr44Xkj/JuMYn4Unm9qCT9xIlGE//wV+m/cMpjAx19Dw62ikcSy tNiTcQvrpcLsRyH0rZFKL1HZLpv8+G9jsh989boot6Wdz1IhXkHPCI4oOE+G1MGw9Im4 dGY2CXFmGG9Q/6m4e8fiYd6AFj/UESyNZXZdw= Received: by 10.143.9.9 with SMTP id m9mr6046084wfi.41.1228419366403; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 11:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:36:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812041136q1cb1b736r1d78f77141fb7d05@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:36:06 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0eaab14532c246a0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I don't find anything in #18 about removing wildcards. http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 Unless I am missing something, the first time a change occurred was in #19, on Dec 2. > The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. That was not in #18. So wildcards were allowed, and one could indicate just a script up until Dec 2. And note that even in #19, Section 2.2.5 says "The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of subtags", not a language tag. So I think "we added text" is an inaccurate representation of a change that first went in Dec 2, with text that didn't represent the last message on the thread of Nov 2-4. And whether or not your intent was to allow "partial" language tag prefixes, that's what the text had for a long time. Note: I think part of the confusion is that we mention Prefix in several places in the document, and we were probably talking about different places, because we sort-of define Prefix in 3 (!) places. I will suggest a change that allows us to leave Prefix as a language tag (a complete one). It also cleans up the text so that there is a single place where we define the Prefix field, and other instances are clearly just glosses. I retained the text that you had about using the extended filtering, with one small change. That change maintains the ability to indicate that the primary subtag is not material to the matching process for a Prefix, by using "und" to stand for any language subtag in that case. That way a prefix of "und-Latn" for tag X means that "en-Latn-X", "fr-Latn-X", etc are valid. So it maintains the ability that was in up until Dec 2, but in a much cleaner fashion, in that we can still now speak of a Prefix as a valid language tag. So here's what I'm proposing. ============================ http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-2.2.5 The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of subtags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. That is, each of the subtags in the prefix SHOULD appear, in order, before the variant. => The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant, according to [Section 3.1.8]. ========= http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.2 Prefix's field-body contains an "extended language range" (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming the language tag. The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. => The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as appropriate) in forming a language tag, according to [Section 3.1.8]. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. ========= http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.8 The 'Prefix' field contains an "extended language range" (see: [RFC4647]) whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag: each of the subtags in one of the subtag's Prefix fields SHOULD appear before the variant in a valid tag. => Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag. When a subtag's record includes one or more Prefix fields, then any language tag containing that subtag SHOULD match at least one of the Prefixes. That matching is according to the "Extended Filtering" algorithm (see ), whereby in the matching: * The Prefix behaves as if it had the subtag itself appended at the end. * "und" in the Prefix matches any primary language subtag. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. ============================ [Discussion] This puts the guts of the definition in exactly one place, with glosses elsewhere. You'd proposed: Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag whose subtags SHOULD be used when forming a language tag with this record's subtag. That is, a language tag that includes a subtag whose record includes one or more Prefix fields SHOULD match at least one of the Prefixes using the "Extended Filtering" algorithm (see ). Further, each of the subtags in the Prefix SHOULD appear before the subtag itself. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant' I retained the Extended Filter language (I liked that). But there are a number of referent problems still in this text. The first sentence still requires that *each* prefix be a prefix of the language tag. The second sentence is pretty convoluted. The third sentence also is a requirement on *each* prefix. And this text was really in the wrong place, since the formal, complete definition should be in 3.1.8. So I tried the above formulation to clear up these problems. Note that the first * is the one that has the Prefix fields (for the prefix that matches!) come first. Mark Mark On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 07:52, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > Since I proposed the use of "extended language range" in the first place: > > - It was NOT intended to allow non-initial prefix registrations. My intention was to simplify the description of both the field's value and the process of matching it to the recommended tag. Basically, I had an insight that what we were describing was a form of extended filtering. > > - I don't think it was the working group's intention to allow non-initial ranges. This can been seen in the fact that we added text banning the wildcard when someone (Randy, I think) pointed out that the text didn't actually ban wildcards. > > > > It is interesting to find that the text, aside from the ban on wildcards, doesn't ban the use of ranges to modify other subtags. If we only remove the ban on '*', we get variants that modify script, region, or generic variants. However, we *did* ban the wildcard in draft #18, so if we revert as Mark suggests, we don't get what he's asking for. The proposed text I sent along yesterday is clearly better, so I would support its inclusion in place of draft #18. If a consensus exists to allow non-initial prefix capabilities, we should also revisit text about generic variants and ensure that the whole is still sensible. > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:05 PM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > > > Hi - > > > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > > To: "Doug Ewell" > > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:39 PM > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes > > > > > > The problem is that we changed something two days ago that had > > been stable > > > for 1 1/2 years. So "no technical change" would be to revert to > > the #18 > > > text. > > > So we have a bit of a problem. I don't think anyone is wedded to > > extension > > > syntax, but I think we do have to have at least some discussion > > about why we > > > should forbid a capability that we've had as part of the draft > > for 1 1/2 > > > years. > > > > As a technical contributor... > > > > I agree that there doesn't seem to be anyone arguing specifically > > for > > the extension syntax. I think the question is whether we actually > > *intended* there to be the "non-initial prefix" capability that > > resulted as a side-effect (as I see it) of the use of that syntax > > to accomplish subtag ordering. That this capability seems to have > > only fairly recently been "discovered" calls into question whether > > there was actually a WG consensus for it. I don't think anything > > terrible results whether we do it one way or the other. > > > > I considered at some length whether it would be helpful with > > something > > like -fonipa for indicating "schools" of transcription and so on. > > My experience is that transcriptions always end up being "tuned" to > > a particular language, so I'm skeptical of whether non-initial > > prefixes > > would really be useful. But I haven't thought of anything terrible > > that would happen if we allowed them. > > > > > But I'm happy for Martin to rule on this one. > > > > As am I. > > > > Randy > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 11:42:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C61A3A6B23; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:42:43 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B824F3A6B23 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:42:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n+nk-ucspIpn for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956663A68F6 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 11:42:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33061 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8K5o-0006uE-98; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:42:33 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:42:17 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] FW: 13th-hour WG Last Call comments Thread-Index: AclWSGnVj5Ysfd5a5UyyZkU58Ahvgg== In-Reply-To: <20081203211909.GA28778@mercury.ccil.org> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8K5o-0006uE-98. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1L8K5o-0006uE-98 b685171ca444133ff64c25e5de0d9b95 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] FW: 13th-hour WG Last Call comments X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-12-03 22.19, skrev "John Cowan" : > Randy Presuhn scripsit: > >> If there are any strenuous objections to Addison's proposed resolutions, >> on this thread, please speak up NOW. > > [I sent a copy of this to Addison directly due to flakiness at ccil.org.] > > Now that my attention has been brought to it, I have to agree that there > is the potential for user confusion between private-use subtag such as > (such as x-foobar) and subtags of other types reserved for private use "x-foobar" is not a private-use subtag. Indeed, it is not a subtag. However, the "foobar" is a subtag, and by virtue of the "x" subtag before it (which I assume to be the first "x" subtag in the tag, otherwise the "x" itself would be a private-use subtag), the "foobar" is a private-use subtag. Den 2008-12-03 22.32, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : > (editor hat ON) > > In incorporating John's suggested text, I made a change (to add the point I > made earlier about their presence in the registry). The text now reads: > > -- > Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this > document refers > to as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as Even though "These" normally refer to the latest referent, I'd prefer being extra clear here and say "The latter" instead of just "These" since the preceding sentence introduces two possible referents. > 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by > the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, > subtags reserved for private use are each represented by a record of the > appropriate > type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", or > "region" subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags. I agree that this is helpful, but I don't like that the terms are as similar as they are (now that the issue has been pointed out). But I guess it is too late to change now, and I have no great new alternative term to suggest. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 13:07:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC5B3A6A64; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:07:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9153A6A64 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:07:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.793 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.793 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.193, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q-G8SFirJmRn for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:07:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277243A68A5 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:07:02 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,716,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="149948343" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 04 Dec 2008 21:06:57 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB4L6rR7013806 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:06:54 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:06:53 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:06:52 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes Thread-Index: AclWR5fp4hcwancJR2ma0lEwFCbuSgAA7b3A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A312B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812041136q1cb1b736r1d78f77141fb7d05@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20812041136q1cb1b736r1d78f77141fb7d05@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > I don't find anything in #18 about removing wildcards. > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 > > Unless I am missing something, the first time a change occurred was > in #19, on Dec 2. Hmm... you're right. We just didn't publish draft-19 for awhile and the memory does falter. We discussed this on the list some time ago. IIRC, Randy pointed out that draft-18 (must have been) didn't prohibit the use of wildcards, even though that was (as noted) the intention. > > That was not in #18. So wildcards were allowed, and one could > indicate just a script up until Dec 2. It was added in draft-07, so wildcards were not allowed previously (the 4646-era text says "language tag"). The text doesn't indicate whether wildcards are banned or not elsewhere, so I guess they were permitted up until draft-19. The question is whether that was intentional or an oversight. And, if an oversight, whether there is anything to be gained from restoring the extended language range (including wildcards). I think there is some merit for doing so, but am a little leery of it (as a form of quondam generic variant). > > Note: I think part of the confusion is that we mention Prefix in > several places in the document, and we were probably talking about > different places, because we sort-of define Prefix in 3 (!) places. Yes. And this is fairly redundant stuff too. See proto-draft-20 for a stab at cutting back on the crossover. > > That change maintains the ability to indicate that the primary > subtag > is not material to the matching process for a Prefix, by using > "und" > to stand for any language subtag in that case. That way a prefix of > "und-Latn" for tag X means that "en-Latn-X", "fr-Latn-X", etc are > valid. So it maintains the ability that was in up until Dec 2, but I really don't like the 'und' thing. It would be much better to just do extended language range and extended filtering and permit the wildcard in that case. We have instructions for implementation and everything. Then it would just be up to ietf-languages@ and the LSR as to whether this feature gets used and, if so, how. Using the wildcard calls attention to the fact that the Prefix matches any primary language subtag. Perhaps a better question would be: if we go down that route, should we then REQUIRE a prefix for all variants? '*', after all, is a valid extended language range. The generic variant ickiness we have now looks problematic by comparison. > > So here's what I'm proposing. We have versions that crossed over in email. Some notes follow on how I incorporated your suggestions: > > > ============================ > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-2.2.5 > > The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of > subtags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. That is, > each of the subtags in the prefix SHOULD appear, in order, before > the > variant. > > => > > The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose > subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant, according > to > [Section 3.1.8]. Good to include the link, but even better to remove repetitive examples, etc. I propose: Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' () fields. Each 'Prefix' indicates a suitable sequence of subtags (with other subtags, as appropriate) for forming a language tag when using the variant. > > ========= > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.2 > > Prefix's field-body contains an "extended language range" > (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which > SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming the language tag. > The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in > Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body > is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > => > > The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose > subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > appropriate) in forming a language tag, according to [Section > 3.1.8]. > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body > is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. This is good. I modified my draft-20 to match thusly: Prefix Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag whose subtags are RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's subtag. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. The forward reference isn't necessary, I think, since we don't use it for the other field types. > > > ========= > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.8 > Here's my proposed draft-20 text, revised to include your proposal:
The field 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose subtags are RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's subtag, perhaps with other subtags. That is, when including a subtag in a language tag, the tag SHOULD match at least one of its Prefix fields using the "Extended Filtering" algorithm (see ) and each of the subtags in the Prefix SHOULD appear before the subtag itself. The 'Prefix' field MUST appear exactly once in a record of type 'extlang' and MAY appear multiple times (or not at all) in records of type 'variant'. Additional fields of this type MAY be added to a 'variant' record via the registration process, provided the 'variant' record already has at least one 'Prefix' field. Each 'Prefix' field indicates a particular sequence of subtags that form a meaningful tag with this subtag. For example, the extended language subtag 'cmn' (Mandarin Chinese) only makes sense with its prefix 'zh' (Chinese). Similarly, 'rozaj' (Resian, a dialect of Slovenian) would be appropriate when used with its prefix 'sl' (Slovenian), while tags such as "is-1994" are not appropriate (and probably not meaningful). Although the prefix for 'rozaj' is "sl", other subtags might appear between them. For example, the tag "sl-IT-rozaj" (Slovenian, Italy, Resian) matches the Prefix "sl". The 'Prefix' also indicates when variant subtags make sense when used together (many that otherwise share a 'Prefix' are mutually exclusive) and what the relative ordering of variants is supposed to be. For example, the variant '1994' (Standardized Resian orthography) has several 'Prefix' fields in the registry ("sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva", "sl-rozaj-osojs", and "sl-rozaj-solba"). This not only indicates that '1994' is appropriate to use with each of these five Resian variant subtags ('rozaj', 'biske', 'njiva', 'osojs', and 'solba') but also that it SHOULD appear following any of these variants in a tag. Thus, the language tag ought to take the form "sl-rozaj-biske-1994" rather than "sl-1994-rozaj-biske" or "sl-rozaj-1994-biske". Once registered, fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any record. The field-body for this type of field MAY be modified, but only if the modification broadens the meaning of the subtag. That is, the field-body can be replaced only by a prefix of itself. For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, such as when two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid.
_______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 13:33:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089C43A6AFE; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:33:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088503A6B16 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:33:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mtT2698jCJ59 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:33:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98AF3A6AFE for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33051 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8Loi-00084A-99; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:33:01 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:32:56 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Mark Davis , "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes Thread-Index: AclWV978x6CdL9nKnkOJPvifK8gOPQ== In-Reply-To: <30b660a20812041136q1cb1b736r1d78f77141fb7d05@mail.gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8Loi-00084A-99. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1L8Loi-00084A-99 a5ac33e13d534b38b019d4a5c93fc5d5 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-12-04 20.36, skrev "Mark Davis" : > So here's what I'm proposing. > > > ============================ > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-2.2.5 > > The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of > subtags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. That is, > each of the subtags in the prefix SHOULD appear, in order, before the > variant. > > => > > The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose > subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant, according to > [Section 3.1.8]. > > ========= > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.2 > > Prefix's field-body contains an "extended language range" > (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which > SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming the language tag. > The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in > Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body > is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > => > > The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose > subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > appropriate) in forming a language tag, according to [Section 3.1.8]. > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body > is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. For extlang this is a bit too general. The body of a Prefix field for an extlang record must be exactly a primary language tag (and there must be exactly one Prefix field for an extlang record) and there can be no subtags between the prefix and the extlang. The generality above is for "variant" records only. > ========= > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.8 > > The 'Prefix' field contains an "extended language range" (see: > [RFC4647]) whose subtags are appropriate to use with this subtag: > each of the subtags in one of the subtag's Prefix fields SHOULD > appear before the variant in a valid tag. > > => > > Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag. When a subtag's > record includes one or more Prefix fields, then any language tag > containing that subtag SHOULD match at least one of the Prefixes. That > matching is according to the "Extended Filtering" algorithm (see target="RFC4647">), whereby in the matching: > * The Prefix behaves as if it had the subtag itself appended at the end. > * "und" in the Prefix matches any primary language subtag. I'm not sure why "und" would be used in place for what elsewhere (in LTRU documents) is denoted by "*". (I'm not having an opinion (yet) as to whether this functionality should be included or not, just an opinion about using "und" as a standin for "*" syntactically, but I do think this new syntax (whether via "und" or "*") is a bit late in the making). > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is > either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > > ============================ /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 4 14:20:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91E933A6A64; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:20:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4A03A6A37 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A+-9nkgc+yio for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:20:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4783A690F for ; Thu, 4 Dec 2008 14:20:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:32781 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8MYt-0007Qm-5N; Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:20:43 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:20:35 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Phillips, Addison" , Mark Davis Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes Thread-Index: AclWR5fp4hcwancJR2ma0lEwFCbuSgAA7b3AAATODtE= In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A312B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8MYt-0007Qm-5N. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L8MYt-0007Qm-5N 03d0e51917b04f0429beefab867ca13f Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-12-04 22.06, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : > The 'Prefix' field MUST appear exactly once in a record of type 'extlang' ...and is then a simpler case (as I mentioned in my previous email)... ... > Once registered, fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any > record. The field-body for this type of field MAY be modified, but only if the > modification broadens the meaning of the subtag. That is, the field-body can > be replaced only by a prefix of itself. For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" > (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) > but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). >From "variant" records one could in principle remove all Prefix fields (that's a widening), also if modifying Prefix fields so that they coincide or overlap may be cause for removing Prefix fields. E.g. Prefix: nnn-Latn Prefix: nnn-Cyrl modifying the first one to "Prefix: nnn" would be cause for removing the "Prefix: nnn-Cyrl" field. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 10:10:52 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7138C28C1ED; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:10:52 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9DC128C1ED for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:10:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKljkVWktG2b for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:10:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEABD28C1C7 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:10:49 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,722,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="172248706" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Dec 2008 18:10:44 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB5IAfYg003552 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:10:43 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.311.2; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:10:41 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:09:33 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 10:10:34 -0800 Thread-Topic: editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXBMRAuy+yPkOwQd2n1B60CXRggQ== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A3A7C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org All, The latest version of the editor's copy is now posted on inter-locale. Any comments? Co-chairs: should and if so when should I prepare to submit this draft? Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 12:53:25 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64CC23A698F; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:53:25 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2933A698F for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:53:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HL0aCRGcHU8G for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FDC3A6904 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 12:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33013 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8hfo-00049a-3E; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 21:53:16 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 21:53:14 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXBMRAuy+yPkOwQd2n1B60CXRggQAFrldb In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A3A7C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8hfo-00049a-3E. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L8hfo-00049a-3E a25e46e83e9b1e67efe47ccd9ba21ee4 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org See below for suggested changes to recently edited portions. /kent k ================================= -------------------------------- Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' (Section 3.1.8) fields. Each 'Prefix' indicates a suitable sequence of subtags (with other subtags, as appropriate) for forming a language tag using when the variant. ==> Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' fields (Section 3.1.8). Each 'Prefix' indicates a suitable sequence of subtags for forming (with other subtags, as appropriate) a language tag when using the variant. (Minor moving around to make it read better.) -------------------------------- Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". These are subtags such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, subtags reserved for private use are each represented by a record of the appropriate type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", or "region" subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags. ==> Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this document refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". The latter are subtags such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private-use codes by the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, subtags reserved for private use are represented by a record of the appropriate type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", or "region" subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags. ("These" => "The latter" for clarity; "each" => "" since they haven't got a record each, instead they have range records (which I don't like...).) -------------------------------- Once registered, fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any record. The field-body for this type of field MAY be modified, but only if the modification broadens the meaning of the subtag. That is, the field-body can be replaced only by a prefix of itself. For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru- Latn" (Russian, Latin script). ==> If there is no 'Prefix' field in a record, no 'Prefix' field may later be registered for the record. Otherwise, only changes to the set of 'Prefix' fields for a record that widen the recommended prefixes are permitted (including removing all 'Prefix' fields in a record). For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). (Correct the description of what is permissible to do with 'Prefix' fields by the registration (modification) process.) -------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 13:23:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88AB63A6950; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321C23A6912 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.501 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.501 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.098, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FXQV1RZ3AjiZ for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2B23A6778 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:23:04 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,722,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="95761876" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Dec 2008 21:22:57 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB5LMrlC016250 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:22:54 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:22:54 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:22:53 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXBMRAuy+yPkOwQd2n1B60CXRggQAFrldbAABMlbA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C17961B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A3A7C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > Each 'Prefix' indicates > a suitable sequence of subtags for forming (with other subtags, > as > appropriate) a language tag when using the variant. > > (Minor moving around to make it read better.) DONE. > ==> > Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this > document > refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". The latter are > subtags > such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private- > use > codes by the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is > very similar, subtags reserved for private use are represented > by a record of the appropriate type in the registry and, thus, > are > syntactically "language", "script", or "region" subtags, rather > than > "private-use" subtags. > > ("These" => "The latter" for clarity; "each" => "" since they > haven't got > a record each, instead they have range records (which I don't > like...).) Note that we got rid of ranges, I believe. These are good suggestions. However: I notice a problem now in the first sentence (we avoid 2119 keywords except as 2119 keywords). Resulting paragraph is: Do not confuse private-use subtags with what this document refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". The latter are subtags such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as codes for private use by one of the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, subtags reserved for private use are represented by records of the appropriate type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", or "region" subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags. > ==> > If there is no 'Prefix' field in a record, no 'Prefix' field may > later be registered for the record. Otherwise, only changes to > the > set of 'Prefix' fields for a record that widen the recommended > prefixes are permitted (including removing all 'Prefix' fields > in a > record). For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin > script) > could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the > Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). > > (Correct the description of what is permissible to do with 'Prefix' > fields by the registration (modification) process.) > -------------------------------- > This is a good change, but should use normative language. I made it read: If a record includes no 'Prefix' field, a 'Prefix' field MUST NOT be added to the record at a later date. Otherwise, changes (additions, deletions, or modifications) to the set of 'Prefix' fields MAY be registered, as long as they strictly widen the range of language tags that are recommended. For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script) or the Prefix "be-Latn-BY" (Belarusian, Latin script, Belarus), since these latter either change or narrow the range of suggested tags. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 13:40:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD5143A67B5; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:40:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58FA23A67B5 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:40:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.69 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.69 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ihLwtzZnQMLB for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8293A6403 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:40:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:32881 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8iPT-0007A4-4V; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:40:27 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2008 22:40:24 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXBMRAuy+yPkOwQd2n1B60CXRggQAFrldbAABMlbAAAVkftw== In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C17961B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8iPT-0007A4-4V. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L8iPT-0007A4-4V 2ca1a27a5bdc538639ba79e933f73a10 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-12-05 22.22, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : >> ==> >> Private-use subtags should not be confused with what this >> document >> refers to as "subtags reserved for private use". The latter are >> subtags >> such as 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as private- >> use >> codes by the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is >> very similar, subtags reserved for private use are represented >> by a record of the appropriate type in the registry and, thus, >> are >> syntactically "language", "script", or "region" subtags, rather >> than >> "private-use" subtags. >> >> ("These" => "The latter" for clarity; "each" => "" since they >> haven't got >> a record each, instead they have range records (which I don't >> like...).) > > Note that we got rid of ranges, I believe. They are still in lstreg-4646bis-draft-07.txt (and are still described in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt). > These are good suggestions. However: I notice a problem now in the first > sentence (we avoid 2119 keywords except as 2119 keywords). Resulting paragraph > is: > > Do not confuse private-use subtags with what this document > refers > to as "subtags reserved for private use". The latter are subtags such as > 'qaa', 'Qaaa', or 'AA' that are designated as codes for private use by one of > the underlying ISO standards. Although their purpose is very similar, > subtags reserved for private use are represented by records of the appropriate > type in the registry and, thus, are syntactically "language", "script", > or "region" subtags, rather than "private-use" subtags. Seems ok. >> ==> >> If there is no 'Prefix' field in a record, no 'Prefix' field may >> later be registered for the record. Otherwise, only changes to >> the >> set of 'Prefix' fields for a record that widen the recommended >> prefixes are permitted (including removing all 'Prefix' fields >> in a >> record). For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin >> script) >> could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the >> Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). >> >> (Correct the description of what is permissible to do with 'Prefix' >> fields by the registration (modification) process.) >> -------------------------------- >> > > This is a good change, but should use normative language. I made it read: > > If a record includes no 'Prefix' field, a 'Prefix' field MUST NOT be added > to the record at a later date. Otherwise, changes (additions, deletions, or > modifications) to the set of 'Prefix' fields MAY be registered, as long as > they strictly widen the range of language tags that are recommended. For > example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by > the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin > script) or the Prefix "be-Latn-BY" (Belarusian, Latin script, Belarus), since > these latter either change or narrow the range of suggested tags. Seems ok. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 14:47:56 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87223A6A05; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:47:56 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339C83A6A05 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:47:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CyWYyKRDAbSg for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:47:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616B83A6403 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:47:54 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Xb9grPWvxQiwBj4550REgkw+Cqqlv5UpsgHvS/da27y07onOpsX2OABqdcFau2qm; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.206.23] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L8jSf-0005gF-Ip for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 17:47:49 -0500 Message-ID: <009d01c9572b$b3386e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 14:49:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e45a844c1bcb9de9a61d6c36a9c2c172d4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.206.23 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... > From: "Kent Karlsson" > To: "Phillips, Addison" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:53 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... > > See below for suggested changes to recently edited portions. > > /kent k ... > Once registered, fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any > record. The field-body for this type of field MAY be modified, but > only if the modification broadens the meaning of the subtag. That > is, the field-body can be replaced only by a prefix of itself. For > example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be > replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru- > Latn" (Russian, Latin script). > ==> > If there is no 'Prefix' field in a record, no 'Prefix' field may > later be registered for the record. Otherwise, only changes to the > set of 'Prefix' fields for a record that widen the recommended > prefixes are permitted (including removing all 'Prefix' fields in a > record). For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) > could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the > Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). > > (Correct the description of what is permissible to do with 'Prefix' > fields by the registration (modification) process.) ... This appears to be a substantial technical change. There had better be a darned good reason for this proposal. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 15:13:21 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47E323A6A05; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:13:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0065D3A6A05 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:13:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MHwz3d0cOATG for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:13:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F38973A69AB for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:13:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1L8jrF-0002z6-9j; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 18:13:13 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:13:13 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081205231313.GC3472@mercury.ccil.org> References: <009d01c9572b$b3386e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <009d01c9572b$b3386e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > If there is no 'Prefix' field in a record, no 'Prefix' field may > > later be registered for the record. Otherwise, only changes to the > > set of 'Prefix' fields for a record that widen the recommended > > prefixes are permitted (including removing all 'Prefix' fields in a > > record). For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) > > could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the > > Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). > > > > This appears to be a substantial technical change. There had better > be a darned good reason for this proposal. It's not substantial. It results from the fact that listing no prefixes is semantically equivalent to declaring every possible prefix. So if some record contains "Prefix: zh; Prefix: ja", meaning that it is usable with Chinese and Japanese, and both Prefix: lines are removed, the scope is thereby widened to Chinese, Japanese, and every other language. -- It was impossible to inveigle John Cowan Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel http://www.ccil.org/~cowan Into offering the slightest apology For his Phenomenology. --W. H. Auden, from "People" (1953) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 15:27:35 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80BFA3A6BD3; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:27:35 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98ECA3A6BD3 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:27:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WHM0CCECaRmV for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:27:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0E643A6836 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:27:33 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,723,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="172498389" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 05 Dec 2008 23:27:28 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB5NRN5a015745 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 5 Dec 2008 23:27:24 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:27:22 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 15:27:21 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXLxM+uauUffbsQbi9Y33u0puvEwAAVj7w Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C179820@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <009d01c9572b$b3386e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081205231313.GC3472@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20081205231313.GC3472@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > > > > This appears to be a substantial technical change. There had > better > > be a darned good reason for this proposal. > > It's not substantial. It results from the fact that listing no > prefixes > is semantically equivalent to declaring every possible prefix. So > if > some record contains "Prefix: zh; Prefix: ja", meaning that it is > usable > with Chinese and Japanese, and both Prefix: lines are removed, the > scope > is thereby widened to Chinese, Japanese, and every other language. > It may be substantial. There is/was an existing prohibition on registering a prefix for a prefix-free variant. What is a possibly substantial change is that we allow prefixes to be removed provided the overall set of recommended language tags remains a superset of the original. With the previous wording, if you had this record: Subtag: foobar Prefix: xx-Latn Prefix: xx-Cyrl You could "widen" it by modifying one of the ranges or adding another, but you MUST NOT remove an entry. So either of these would be acceptable: Subtag: foobar Prefix: xx Prefix: xx-Cyrl -- Subtag: foobar Prefix: xx-Latn Prefix: xx-Cyrl Prefix: xx But the following record (now permitted) was NOT permitted: Subtag: foobar Prefix: xx This in spite of the fact that it is syntactically equivalent. Probably this change should prohibit removing the last prefix (the ultimate widening)?? Addison _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 16:38:57 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC1973A692E; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:38:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9043A6986 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:38:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.231 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.231 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.255, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B+AFkTLnuWKW for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:38:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.243]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 101AF3A67DB for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:38:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b6so161384ana.4 for ; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:38:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=ZBGIMaUN2JN/n1xguP4H2PKlSrLDJwa0HYUi+ocw69k=; b=Mj2eAFqEnX66fq+E92CnDaiB44nOYPRBFy9xp+advvHCOD4FTMQ7YI6abaef5jQOp1 ncUHPtkbsvF5+dwHnvzpgWxSdRP9mFGoaASGeaL5a84t3HKcy/s9tPe0Sr1207yd5v+L Vu6/gsR27aXdd+Hs6ESKhugUj9d6dAdirS3EI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=rgS7E7cz/+0f317OyxdQuDUsVT5gM2T2UX/3HifnC/NswGEcwo2RzAJ+oQHPgf1Jo6 sZ+A1hjJIzcCOhSnLAFyHddiZI2DbrU1eq5eMNmcIFhHNQNZL2hRku2VM16EFYEz62xA 6JELLw5TBBJMRBUzhWKxIlURPA+9MOkaxyTZM= Received: by 10.142.162.9 with SMTP id k9mr243255wfe.282.1228523929056; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:38:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:38:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812051638wb4e4fb8gfa346b6987a7e7bb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:38:48 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C179820@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <009d01c9572b$b3386e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081205231313.GC3472@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C179820@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 57cf632731d32b2e Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0013979080==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0013979080== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_31882_33403016.1228523929058" ------=_Part_31882_33403016.1228523929058 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't consider it a material change, since the semantics is preserved. That is, the deletion of a Prefix that imposes no constaint is not semantic change - it makes no change in the requirements or recommendations of the specification. And once you have: Subtag: foobar Prefix: xx-Latn Prefix: xx-Cyrl Prefix: xx you can freely remove the first two, since they are completely subsumed by the last condition. So that is completely equivalent to: Subtag: foobar Prefix: xx Mark On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 15:27, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > > > > This appears to be a substantial technical change. There had > > better > > > be a darned good reason for this proposal. > > > > It's not substantial. It results from the fact that listing no > > prefixes > > is semantically equivalent to declaring every possible prefix. So > > if > > some record contains "Prefix: zh; Prefix: ja", meaning that it is > > usable > > with Chinese and Japanese, and both Prefix: lines are removed, the > > scope > > is thereby widened to Chinese, Japanese, and every other language. > > > > It may be substantial. > > There is/was an existing prohibition on registering a prefix for a > prefix-free variant. > > What is a possibly substantial change is that we allow prefixes to be > removed provided the overall set of recommended language tags remains a > superset of the original. > > With the previous wording, if you had this record: > > Subtag: foobar > Prefix: xx-Latn > Prefix: xx-Cyrl > > You could "widen" it by modifying one of the ranges or adding another, but > you MUST NOT remove an entry. So either of these would be acceptable: > > Subtag: foobar > Prefix: xx > Prefix: xx-Cyrl > > -- > > Subtag: foobar > Prefix: xx-Latn > Prefix: xx-Cyrl > Prefix: xx > > But the following record (now permitted) was NOT permitted: > > Subtag: foobar > Prefix: xx > > This in spite of the fact that it is syntactically equivalent. > > Probably this change should prohibit removing the last prefix (the ultimate > widening)?? > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_31882_33403016.1228523929058 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I don't consider it a material change, since the semantics is preserved. That is, the deletion of a Prefix that imposes no constaint is not semantic change - it makes no change in the requirements or recommendations of the specification. And once you have:

Subtag: foobar
Prefix: xx-Latn
Prefix: xx-Cyrl
Prefix: xx

you can freely remove the first two, since they are completely subsumed by the last condition. So that is completely equivalent to:

Subtag: foobar
Prefix: xx




Mark


On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 15:27, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

> >
> > This appears to be a substantial technical change.  There had
> better
> > be a darned good reason for this proposal.
>
> It's not substantial.  It results from the fact that listing no
> prefixes
> is semantically equivalent to declaring every possible prefix.  So
> if
> some record contains "Prefix: zh; Prefix: ja", meaning that it is
> usable
> with Chinese and Japanese, and both Prefix: lines are removed, the
> scope
> is thereby widened to Chinese, Japanese, and every other language.
>

It may be substantial.

There is/was an existing prohibition on registering a prefix for a prefix-free variant.

What is a possibly substantial change is that we allow prefixes to be removed provided the overall set of recommended language tags remains a superset of the original.

With the previous wording, if you had this record:

Subtag: foobar
Prefix: xx-Latn
Prefix: xx-Cyrl

You could "widen" it by modifying one of the ranges or adding another, but you MUST NOT remove an entry. So either of these would be acceptable:

Subtag: foobar
Prefix: xx
Prefix: xx-Cyrl

--

Subtag: foobar
Prefix: xx-Latn
Prefix: xx-Cyrl
Prefix: xx

But the following record (now permitted) was NOT permitted:

Subtag: foobar
Prefix: xx

This in spite of the fact that it is syntactically equivalent.

Probably this change should prohibit removing the last prefix (the ultimate widening)??

Addison
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_31882_33403016.1228523929058-- --===============0013979080== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0013979080==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 17:11:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43EA33A692E; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9DAA3A692E for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:11:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.745, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z0u2jvg8ukQK for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:11:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 086DE3A6403 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:11:51 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qGnndS8a2AP0HxFZRM1W/U1tl51qMmrY9FMJq0q+8/9i8G6ZqhCG7F78mic2vUg7; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.38.37] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1L8lhz-0003h5-0Y for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 05 Dec 2008 20:11:47 -0500 Message-ID: <00b501c9573f$cf53c6a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <009d01c9572b$b3386e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20081205231313.GC3472@mercury.ccil.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C179820@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812051638wb4e4fb8gfa346b6987a7e7bb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 17:13:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e42c67c7ce56c535b9d8a98a3ce488ad54350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.38.37 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Mark Davis" > To: "Phillips, Addison" > Cc: "John Cowan" ; "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... > > I don't consider it a material change, since the semantics is preserved. > That is, the deletion of a Prefix that imposes no constaint is not semantic > change - it makes no change in the requirements or recommendations of the > specification. And once you have: > Subtag: foobar > Prefix: xx-Latn > Prefix: xx-Cyrl > Prefix: xx > > you can freely remove the first two, since they are completely subsumed by > the last condition. So that is completely equivalent to: > > Subtag: foobar > Prefix: xx ... As co-chair: Kent Karlsson's proposal would remove "Once registered, fields of type Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any record" and would add to the list of permitted changes "removing all 'Prefix' fields in a record". Regardless of whether the semantics are the same, this changes whether certain specific change requests would or would not be permitted. For example, any request to remove all Prefixes would be rejected under the original text (note the "MUST NOT"), but would be permitted under Kent's proposal. Consequently, I believe we must handle this proposal as a technical change. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 5 19:27:42 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BACB3A68E1; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:27:42 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1B33A68E1 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:27:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.818, BAYES_40=-0.185, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xxcZfIyJ+gCO for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout10.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.238]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A7A3E3A6811 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:27:40 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 18450 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2008 03:27:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout10-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.238) with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2008 03:27:34 -0000 Message-ID: <7535ED16FE9A4737BF4F6F2B9A283197@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:27:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; 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06 Dec 2008 03:37:31 -0000 Message-ID: <95444289D7034D1996027481C2EFF8DF@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 20:37:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... 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Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E5183A6990; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:35:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BB3E3A6996 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.682 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.682 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGN+TiElSOtc for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AB6F3A68F1 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:34:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:34353 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8uUt-0003QV-5o; Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:34:51 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:34:32 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXjjmXRAvyU4wjHEajUdfaJ7e5Og== In-Reply-To: <147983316E1B4EDB84E5A79295AA2935@DGBP7M81> Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8uUt-0003QV-5o. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L8uUt-0003QV-5o cccaff52183ebfe3e3daa663455daaf1 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-12-06 05.18, skrev "Doug Ewell" : > The empty set of prefixes { } doesn't really fit the notational model, > but the premise is the same: it represents the set of all possible > prefixes, unconstrained, which is undeniably a superset of all other sets. Indeed, there is no way to express "the empty set of prefixes" in the registry. Not having any "Prefix" fields in a record means the universal set of prefixes. (Or would be equivalent to "Prefix: *", but that syntax is not permitted. > Because of this, any set of > prefixes could be replaced by the empty set -- that is, any variant with one > or more prefixes could have its scope widened by removing all of the > prefixes. This "ultimate widening" should ABSOLUTELY be allowed, and may not > be undone or otherwise further modified. Whatever rules are drawn up to > restrict the changing and deleting of prefixes should take this model into > account, and should not focus on preserving the individual prefixes. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 6 02:38:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ABBC3A69A2; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:38:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B1893A69A2 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:38:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.676 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.676 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1AQqptdQF11i for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A17163A692A for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 02:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33053 helo=[192.168.1.3]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.68) (envelope-from ) id 1L8uY2-0006Vm-5u; Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:38:07 +0100 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.14.0.081024 Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 11:38:06 +0100 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... Thread-Index: AclXjjmXRAvyU4wjHEajUdfaJ7e5OgAAH+NO In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1L8uY2-0006Vm-5u. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1L8uY2-0006Vm-5u b2f71b0d25cbaf501fccf06d03c9fdbf Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Den 2008-12-06 05.18, skrev "Doug Ewell" : > The empty set of prefixes { } doesn't really fit the notational model, > but the premise is the same: it represents the set of all possible > prefixes, unconstrained, which is undeniably a superset of all other sets. Indeed, there is no way to express "the empty set of prefixes" in the registry. Not having any "Prefix" fields in a record means the universal set of prefixes. (Or would be equivalent to "Prefix: *", but that syntax is now not permitted.) > Because of this, any set of > prefixes could be replaced by the empty set -- that is, any variant with one > or more prefixes could have its scope widened by removing all of the > prefixes. This "ultimate widening" should ABSOLUTELY be allowed, and may not > be undone or otherwise further modified. Whatever rules are drawn up to > restrict the changing and deleting of prefixes should take this model into > account, and should not focus on preserving the individual prefixes. Which indeed was the goal of my proposed change. If we allow "widening" in principle for prefixes, there should be no irrelevant restrictions on how that widening is expressed as a list of Prefix fields in a record. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 6 10:19:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E42A3A69FA; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:19:18 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C4F3A6965 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:19:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.881 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.881 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.817, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_63=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41X0GVqu1-Hg for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s20.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s20.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 831363A69FA for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:19:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W13 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s20.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:19:10 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 13:19:10 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Dec 2008 18:19:10.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[22841CA0:01C957CF] Subject: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?_Re=3A__editor=27s_copy_of_draft-20_updat?= =?windows-1256?b?ZWQuLi7+?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2110379481==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============2110379481== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_977f563d-0db9-48e6-8db9-e80788f33ec7_" --_977f563d-0db9-48e6-8db9-e80788f33ec7_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi, I agree that (1), should we remove all fields of type prefix once they have been added to a record, that this would constitute a substantial change in the draft (and not just a change in the wording);and that (2), in any case, subtags like 'und' and 'mul' are real language subtags and must not be used in place of a wildcard. I am not sure I wholly oppose the use of a wild card in a subtag as we now have variant subtags (fonipa, fonupa) registered without prefixes. A wildcard would allow us to narrow the range of prefixes for such subtags a bit. However, I am not the one to say whether such a change is allowed at this point.. If it is, or even if it is not, is there some way to specify a limitation on the various prefixes that might be appropriate with a variant subtag--one without any prefixes registered, or one with only a wildcard as the registered prefix; I'm using "fonupa" an an example; I do not know if it is the best example either:The ietf reference for that alphabet was/is:http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2419.pdf It's a subtag that's really only used with Uralic and some other 'Altaic' languages. How would one place restrictions on it or other similar subtags (or is this something that the subtag user must know? If the latter, why are we placing so many restrictions or are we only placing restrictions on syntax?). Or is it too late to discuss this at this point? (I too recall this being discussed before. I'll try to find the URL sometime. I think it was when we were duscussing registering a suppress-script for subtags other than primary language subtags--at ietf-languages.) C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com --_977f563d-0db9-48e6-8db9-e80788f33ec7_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi,  I agree that (1), should we remove all fields of type prefix once they have been added to a record, that this would constitute a substantial change in the draft (and not just a change in the wording);
and that (2), in any case, subtags like 'und' and 'mul' are real language subtags and must not be used in place of a wildcard.
 
I am not sure I wholly oppose the use of a wild card in a subtag  as we now have variant subtags (fonipa, fonupa) registered without prefixes. A wildcard would allow us to narrow the range of prefixes for such subtags a bit.   
 
However, I am not the one to say whether such a change is allowed at this point..  If it is, or even if it is not, is there some way to specify a limitation on the various prefixes that might be appropriate with a variant subtag--one without any prefixes registered, or one with only a wildcard as the registered prefix; I'm using "fonupa" an an example; I do not know if it is the best example either:
The ietf reference for that alphabet was/is:
http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n2419.pdf
 
It's a subtag that's really only used with Uralic and some other 'Altaic' languages.
 
How would one place restrictions on it or other similar subtags (or is this something that the subtag user must know?  If the latter, why are we placing so many restrictions or are we only placing restrictions on syntax?).
 
Or is it too late to discuss this at this point?
 
(I too recall this being discussed before.  I'll try to find the URL sometime.  I think it was when we were duscussing registering a suppress-script for subtags other than primary language subtags--at ietf-languages.)
 
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 



--_977f563d-0db9-48e6-8db9-e80788f33ec7_-- --===============2110379481== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============2110379481==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 6 10:41:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03013A695F; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:41:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7413A695F for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:41:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.392, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ek8qYuM3s6KG for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BB743A68C8 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 2008 10:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 11102 invoked from network); 6 Dec 2008 18:41:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.47) with ESMTP; 06 Dec 2008 18:41:03 -0000 Message-ID: <22BA8C06C4E54560B3CBC1585D146626@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 11:41:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Cc: Kent Karlsson Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org S2VudCBLYXJsc3NvbiA8a2VudCBkb3Qga2FybHNzb24xNCBhdCBjb21oZW0gZG90IHNlPiB3cm90 ZToKCj4+IFRoZSBlbXB0eSBzZXQgb2YgcHJlZml4ZXMgeyB9IGRvZXNuJ3QgcmVhbGx5IGZpdCB0 aGUgbm90YXRpb25hbCAKPj4gbW9kZWwsIGJ1dCB0aGUgcHJlbWlzZSBpcyB0aGUgc2FtZTogaXQg cmVwcmVzZW50cyB0aGUgc2V0IG9mIGFsbCAKPj4gcG9zc2libGUgcHJlZml4ZXMsIHVuY29uc3Ry YWluZWQsIHdoaWNoIGlzIHVuZGVuaWFibHkgYSBzdXBlcnNldCBvZiAKPj4gYWxsIG90aGVyIHNl dHMuCj4KPiBJbmRlZWQsIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHdheSB0byBleHByZXNzICJ0aGUgZW1wdHkgc2V0 IG9mIHByZWZpeGVzIiBpbiB0aGUgCj4gcmVnaXN0cnkuIE5vdCBoYXZpbmcgYW55ICJQcmVmaXgi IGZpZWxkcyBpbiBhIHJlY29yZCBtZWFucyB0aGUgCj4gdW5pdmVyc2FsIHNldCBvZiBwcmVmaXhl cy4gKE9yIHdvdWxkIGJlIGVxdWl2YWxlbnQgdG8gIlByZWZpeDogKiIsIGJ1dCAKPiB0aGF0IHN5 bnRheCBpcyBub3QgcGVybWl0dGVkLgoKSSB0cmllZCB0byBzYXkgdGhhdCwgYnV0IGRpZG4ndCB3 b3JkIGl0IHZlcnkgd2VsbC4gIFRoZSBzZXQgb2YgCipleHByZXNzZWQqIHByZWZpeGVzIGluIHRo ZSBSZWdpc3RyeSBpcyBhIHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uLCBidXQgbm90IApuZWNlc3NhcmlseSAxLXRv LTEsIG9mIHRoZSBzZXQgb2YgKmFsbG93YWJsZSogcHJlZml4ZXMgaW4gbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFncy4K CkFzIGFuIGV4YW1wbGUsIGlldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQgdGhlIHZhcmlhbnRzICcx OTAxJyBhbmQgJzE5OTYnIAppbiBhbiBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIGJyaW5nIHRoZSByZWdpc3RlcmVkIHRh Z3MgImRlLTE5MDEiIGFuZCBjb21wYW55IGludG8gCnRoZSB3b3JsZCBvZiByZWd1bGFyIHRhZ3Ms IGNvbnN0cnVjdGVkIGZyb20gc3VidGFncy4gIE9yaWdpbmFsbHksIHVuZGVyIApSRkMgMzA2Niwg dGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZyB0YWdzIGhhZCBiZWVuIHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQ6CgpkZS0xOTAxCmRlLUFULTE5 MDEKZGUtQ0gtMTkwMQpkZS1ERS0xOTAxCmRlLTE5OTYKZGUtQVQtMTk5NgpkZS1DSC0xOTk2CmRl LURFLTE5OTYKCk5vdGljZSBob3cgaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgZGlkIG5vdCByZWdpc3RlciB0aGUg dmFyaWFudHMgJzE5MDEnIGFuZCAKJzE5OTYnIGVhY2ggd2l0aCBwcmVmaXhlcyBvZiAiZGUiLCAi ZGUtQVQiLCAiZGUtQ0giLCBhbmQgImRlLURFIi4gCkluc3RlYWQsIGl0IHdhcyAoY29ycmVjdGx5 KSBmZWx0IHRoYXQgdGhlIHNpbmdsZSBwcmVmaXggImRlIiB3b3VsZCBjb3ZlciAKdGhlIG90aGVy IHBvc3NpYmlsaXRpZXMgKGFuZCBwb3RlbnRpYWxseSBtb3JlKS4KClNpbWlsYXJseSwgdGhlIHNp bmdsZSBwcmVmaXggInh4IiB3b3VsZCBjb3ZlciB0aGUgdHdvIHByZWZpeGVzICJ4eC1MYXRuIiAK YW5kICJ4eC1DeXJsIiwgYW5kIG1vcmUuICBBZGRpbmcgb25lIGV4cHJlc3NlZCBwcmVmaXggYW5k IGRlbGV0aW5nIHR3bywgCmEgbmV0IHJlZHVjdGlvbiBvZiBvbmUgKmV4cHJlc3NlZCogcHJlZml4 IGluIHRoZSBSZWdpc3RyeSwgd291bGQgCnN1YnN0YW50aWFsbHkgaW5jcmVhc2UgdGhlIG51bWJl ciBvZiAqYWxsb3dhYmxlKiBwcmVmaXhlcyBmb3IgdGhpcyAKdmFyaWFudCBpbiB0YWdzLiAgVGhh dCdzIHdoeSBJIGRvbid0IGFncmVlIHdpdGggcmVxdWlyaW5nIHRoZSBuZXcgc2V0IHRvIApiZSB7 eHgtTGF0biwgeHgtQ3lybCwgeHh9LgoKVGhlIGV4dHJlbWUgZXhhbXBsZSBvZiB0aGlzIGlzIHRo YXQgdGhlIGVtcHR5IHNldCBvZiBleHByZXNzZWQgcHJlZml4ZXMgCmNvcnJlc3BvbmRzIHRvIHRo ZSB1bml2ZXJzYWwgc2V0IG9mIGFsbG93YWJsZSBwcmVmaXhlcy4gICdmb25pcGEnIGhhcyBubyAK ZXhwcmVzc2VkIHByZWZpeGVzOyB0aGVyZWZvcmUgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIHRoZSBzeW50YXgsIGl0 IGNhbiB2YWxpZGx5IGJlIAp1c2VkIGluIGEgdGFnIHdpdGggYW55IHByZWZpeC4gIChTaWRlIG5v dGU6IEknbSBhd2FyZSB0aGF0IGl0IG1ha2VzIG5vIApzZW5zZSB0byB1c2UgJ2ZvbmlwYScgd2l0 aCwgc2F5LCAiemgtSGFuaSIuICBJdCBpcyBub3QgbXkgaW50ZW50IGhlcmUgdG8gCmFyZ3VlIGlu IGZhdm9yIG9mIGFkZGluZyBsb2dpYyB0byB0aGUgc3ludGF4IHRvIHN1cHBvcnQgbm9uLWluaXRp YWwgCnByZWZpeGVzLCB0byBwcmV2ZW50IHBlb3BsZSBmcm9tIGVuZ2FnaW5nIGluIHRoaXMgc29y dCBvZiB1bndpc2UgCnRhZ2dpbmcsIGVzcGVjaWFsbHkgbm90IGF0IHRoaXMgbGF0ZSBkYXRlLikK Ck9uIHRoZSBvdGhlciBoYW5kLCBhcyBLZW50IGltcGxpZWQsIHRoZXJlIGlzIG5vIHdheSB0byBl eHByZXNzICJ0aGUgCmVtcHR5IHNldCBvZiAqYWxsb3dhYmxlKiBwcmVmaXhlcyIgaW4gdGhlIFJl Z2lzdHJ5LiAgVGhlcmUgd291bGQgYmUgbm8gCnB1cnBvc2UgZm9yIHN1Y2ggYW4gZXhwcmVzc2lv biwgc2luY2UgaXQgd291bGQgY2xlYXJseSBtYWtlIG5vIHNlbnNlIHRvIApyZWdpc3RlciBhIHZh cmlhbnQgdGhhdCBjb3VsZCBub3QgYmUgdXNlZCB3aXRoIGFueSBwcmVmaXguCgotLQpEb3VnIEV3 ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQK aHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNoYXJ0ZXJz L2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 6 11:22:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A72F73A6925; 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06 Dec 2008 19:22:09 -0000 Message-ID: <0327D5A257134D3D818205A6DAFC975B@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 12:22:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] =?utf-8?q?editor=27s_copy_of_draft-20_updated=2E=2E=2E?= =?utf-8?b?4oCP?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Q0UgV2hpdGVoZWFkIDxjZXdjYXRoYXIgYXQgaG90bWFpbCBkb3QgY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4gSSBh bSBub3Qgc3VyZSBJIHdob2xseSBvcHBvc2UgdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBhIHdpbGQgY2FyZCBpbiBhIHN1 YnRhZyAgYXMgCj4gd2Ugbm93IGhhdmUgdmFyaWFudCBzdWJ0YWdzIChmb25pcGEsIGZvbnVwYSkg cmVnaXN0ZXJlZCB3aXRob3V0IAo+IHByZWZpeGVzLiBBIHdpbGRjYXJkIHdvdWxkIGFsbG93IHVz IHRvIG5hcnJvdyB0aGUgcmFuZ2Ugb2YgcHJlZml4ZXMgCj4gZm9yIHN1Y2ggc3VidGFncyBhIGJp dC4KClRoYXQncyBzb21ldGhpbmcgd2UgYWx3YXlzIHNhaWQgd2Ugd291bGQgbmV2ZXIsIG5ldmVy IGRvLgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0 NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5v cmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQu bm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YgCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Dec 6 23:11:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80AEC3A68C6; 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charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SGkgLQoKQm90aCBhcyBjby1jaGFpciBhbmQgYXMgYSB0ZWNobmljYWwgY29udHJpYnV0b3IuLi4K Cj4gRnJvbTogIkNFIFdoaXRlaGVhZCIgPGNld2NhdGhhckBob3RtYWlsLmNvbT4KPiBUbzogPGx0 cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmc+Cj4gU2VudDogU2F0dXJkYXksIERlY2VtYmVyIDA2LCAyMDA4IDEwOjE5IEFN Cj4gU3ViamVjdDogW0x0cnVdIFJlOiBlZGl0b3IncyBjb3B5IG9mIGRyYWZ0LTIwIHVwZGF0ZWQu Li7+Ci4uLgo+IEl0J3MgYSBzdWJ0YWcgdGhhdCdzIHJlYWxseSBvbmx5IHVzZWQgd2l0aCBVcmFs aWMgYW5kIHNvbWUgb3RoZXIgJ0FsdGFpYycgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzLgo+IEhvdyB3b3VsZCBvbmUgcGxh Y2UgcmVzdHJpY3Rpb25zIG9uIGl0IG9yIG90aGVyIHNpbWlsYXIgc3VidGFncwoKV2UgcHJvdmlk ZSBubyBtYWNoaW5lLXByb2Nlc3NhYmxlIHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uIGZvciBzdWNoIGNvbnN0cmFp bnRzLgpIb3dldmVyLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBwbGVudHkgb2YgdGV4dCBhYm91dCB0aGUgc2VtYW50aWMg bGltaXRhdGlvbnMgb24gdGhlCmFwcGxpY2FiaWxpdHkgb2YgdmFyaWFudCBzdWJ0YWdzLgoKPiAo b3IgaXMgdGhpcyBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCB0aGUgc3VidGFnIHVzZXIgbXVzdCBrbm93PwoKeWVz Cgo+ICBJZiB0aGUgbGF0dGVyLCB3aHkgYXJlIHdlIHBsYWNpbmcgc28gbWFueSByZXN0cmljdGlv bnMgb3IgYXJlIHdlIG9ubHkKPiBwbGFjaW5nIHJlc3RyaWN0aW9ucyBvbiBzeW50YXg/KS4KCldl J3JlIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgdGhlIHN5bnRheCBvZiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnksIGFuZCBwZXJtaXNz aWJsZSBjaGFuZ2VzCnRvIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGNvbnRlbnRzLiAgVGhpcyBhY3R1YWxseSBoYXMgbm8g YmVhcmluZyBvbiB3aGF0IGNvbnN0aXR1dGVzIGEKd2VsbC1mb3JtZWQgb3IgdmFsaWQgbGFuZ3Vh Z2UgdGFnLiAgUHJlZml4IHZhbHVlcyBhcmUgb25seSBhZHZpc29yeSwKc3ViamVjdCB0byB0aGUg b3ZlcnJpZGluZyAidGFnIHdpc2VseSIgZXRob3MuCgo+IE9yIGlzIGl0IHRvbyBsYXRlIHRvIGRp c2N1c3MgdGhpcyBhdCB0aGlzIHBvaW50PwoKSSB0aGluayBpdCdzIHJlYWxseSB0b28gbGF0ZSB0 byByZXZpc2l0IHRoZSBwaGlsb3NvcGh5LgoKQXMgZmFyIGFzIEkgY2FuIHJlY2FsbCwgbm8gaW5z dGFuY2VzIHdoZXJlIHRoaXMgYXBwcm9hY2ggd291bGQgY2F1c2UgYW55CnByb2JsZW1zIGhhdmUg YmVlbiBtZW50aW9uZWQgb24gdGhlIGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0LgpVbmxlc3Mg eW91IGNhbiBpZGVudGlmeSBhIHNlcmlvdXNseSBicm9rZW4gY2FzZSBub3QgY292ZXJlZCBieSBl eGlzdGluZwpsYW5ndWFnZSBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnRzLCBJIHRoaW5rIGl0J3MgYmV0dGVyIGZvciB1 cyBhcyBhIFdHIHRvIHNheSAiZ29vZCBlbm91Z2giCmFuZCByZXF1ZXN0IHRoYXQgdGhlIHVwZGF0 ZXMgYmUgY29uc2lkZXJlZCBmb3IgQkNQLgoKUmFuZHkKCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sun Dec 7 21:26:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5DD3A68BA; Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:26:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4790F3A6A27 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:25:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.243 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.243 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.515, BAYES_20=-0.74, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vlLGqnNKmsWo for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F4983A68BA for ; Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 25640 invoked from network); 8 Dec 2008 05:25:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth23.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.47) with ESMTP; 08 Dec 2008 05:25:50 -0000 Message-ID: <5DA138F9D24D4177A3ABC3E29DDA03B8@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:25:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] editor's copy of draft-20 updated... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org SW4gZGVzY3JpYmluZyB0aGUgbW9kZWwgSSBmZWVsIHdlIHNob3VsZCBmb2xsb3cgZm9yIGFzc2ln bm1lbnQgb2YgCnByZWZpeGVzIHRvIHZhcmlhbnQgc3VidGFncywgSSB3cm90ZToKCj4gU2ltaWxh cmx5LCB0aGUgc2luZ2xlIHByZWZpeCAieHgiIHdvdWxkIGNvdmVyIHRoZSB0d28gcHJlZml4ZXMg Cj4gInh4LUxhdG4iIGFuZCAieHgtQ3lybCIsIGFuZCBtb3JlLiAgQWRkaW5nIG9uZSBleHByZXNz ZWQgcHJlZml4IGFuZCAKPiBkZWxldGluZyB0d28sIGEgbmV0IHJlZHVjdGlvbiBvZiBvbmUgKmV4 cHJlc3NlZCogcHJlZml4IGluIHRoZSAKPiBSZWdpc3RyeSwgd291bGQgc3Vic3RhbnRpYWxseSBp bmNyZWFzZSB0aGUgbnVtYmVyIG9mICphbGxvd2FibGUqIAo+IHByZWZpeGVzIGZvciB0aGlzIHZh cmlhbnQgaW4gdGFncy4gIFRoYXQncyB3aHkgSSBkb24ndCBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIAo+IHJlcXVpcmlu ZyB0aGUgbmV3IHNldCB0byBiZSB7eHgtTGF0biwgeHgtQ3lybCwgeHh9LgoKQWx0aG91Z2ggdGhp cyBtb2RlbCB3b3JrcyBmb3IgcHJlZml4ZXMgdGhhdCBpbmNsdWRlIHNjcmlwdCBhbmQvb3IgcmVn aW9uIApzdWJ0YWdzLCBpdCBkb2Vzbid0IHdvcmsgcXVpdGUgdGhlIHNhbWUgZm9yIHByZWZpeGVz IHRoYXQgaW5jbHVkZSBvdGhlciAKdmFyaWFudHMuCgpUaGlzIGlzIGJlY2F1c2Ugd2UgcmVjb2du aXplIHRoYXQgc29tZSB2YXJpYW50cyBjYW4gbG9naWNhbGx5IGJlIHVzZWQgCnRvZ2V0aGVyLCBs aWtlICdyb3phaicgYW5kICdiaXNrZScsIHdoaWxlIG90aGVycyBjYW4ndCwgbGlrZSAnMTkwMScg YW5kIAonMTk5NicuICBXZSBoYXZlIGRlY2lkZWQgdGhhdCB3aGVuIHR3byBwcmVmaXhlcyBjYW4g bG9naWNhbGx5IGJlIHVzZWQgCnRvZ2V0aGVyLCB3ZSBkZWZpbmUgYW4gb3JkZXJpbmcsIGFuZCB0 aGUgUmVnaXN0cnkgZW50cnkgZm9yIHRoZSBzZWNvbmQgCnZhcmlhbnQgY29udGFpbnMgYSBwcmVm aXggd2l0aCB0aGUgZmlyc3QgdmFyaWFudDoKClR5cGU6IHZhcmlhbnQKU3VidGFnOiBuaml2YQou Li4KUHJlZml4OiBzbC1yb3phagoKVGhlbiBhIHVzYWdlIGxpa2UgInNsLXJvemFqLW5qaXZhIiBp cyBjb25zaWRlcmVkIGFwcHJvcHJpYXRlLCB3aGlsZSAKInNsLW5qaXZhIiB3b3VsZCBiZSBjb25z aWRlcmVkIGFzIGluYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgYXMgImphLW5qaXZhIi4KClNvIHdoaWxlIGl0IGlzIHN0 aWxsIHRydWUgdGhhdCB7eHh9IHdvdWxkIHN1YnN1bWUge3h4LUxhdG59LCBhbmQge3l5fSAKd291 bGQgc3Vic3VtZSB7eXktS0V9LCBpdCBpcyBub3QgdHJ1ZSB0aGF0IHt6en0gd291bGQgc3Vic3Vt ZSAKe3p6LXZhcmlhbnQxfS4gIFRodXMsIHdoZW4gd2lkZW5pbmcgdGhlIHNldCBvZiBhbGxvd2Fi bGUgcHJlZml4ZXMgdGhhdCAKaW52b2x2ZSB2YXJpYW50cywgYWxsIG9mIHRoZSBwcmVmaXhlcyBz aG91bGQgY29udGludWUgdG8gYmUgc3BlY2lmaWVkLCAKYW5kIHt6ei12YXJpYW50MSwgenp9IGNv dWxkIG5vdCBiZSBhYmJyZXZpYXRlZCB0byB7enp9LgoKVGhlIGFic2VuY2Ugb2YgYW55IFByZWZp eCBmaWVsZHMgc3RpbGwgbWVhbnMgImFsbCBwcmVmaXhlcyBhcmUgCmFsbG93YWJsZSwiIGV2ZW4g dGhvc2UgcHJlZml4ZXMgdGhhdCBjb250YWluIG90aGVyIHZhcmlhbnRzLiAgQW5kIG9mIApjb3Vy c2UsIGFsbCBvZiB0aGlzIHN0aWxsIGFwcGxpZXMgb25seSB0byBwcmVmaXhlcyBmb3IgdmFyaWFu dCBzdWJ0YWdzLiAKUHJlZml4ZXMgZm9yIGV4dGxhbmcgc3VidGFncyBjb250aW51ZSB0byBiZSB2 ZXJ5IHN0cmFpZ2h0Zm9yd2FyZDogdGhlcmUgCm11c3QgYmUgZXhhY3RseSBvbmUsIGFuZCBpdCBt dXN0IGNvbnNpc3Qgb2YgYSBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWcgYW5kIApub3RoaW5nIGVsc2UuCgotLQpE b3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVU TiAjMTQKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9yZwpodHRwOi8vd3d3MS5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sLmNo YXJ0ZXJzL2x0cnUtY2hhcnRlci5odG1sCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhgoKX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 8 20:17:46 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538D53A67DD; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:17:46 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 603873A67DD for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:17:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.754 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.754 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.155, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ka9zeB2gl9dw for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 475BF3A63EB for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:17:44 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,739,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="152809350" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Dec 2008 04:17:39 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB94HdJt018976 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 04:17:39 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:17:38 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:17:36 -0800 Thread-Topic: updated editors copy (seeking consensus) Thread-Index: AclZtREXRg+3P+BrTzKZz0KEK8O3+A== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C2A4CE9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] updated editors copy (seeking consensus) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat firmly ON) I have posted the latest editor's copy of draft-20 to Inter-Locale. I have also generated a static diff file (to spare my poor server). Files: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.html http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.xml Static diff: http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/rfcdiff.pyht.htm Regards, Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 8 20:24:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C29A3A696A; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:24:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF3C33A68FD for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:24:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.717 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.717 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.207, BAYES_40=-0.185, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIJfhVV6MFA8 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9988C3A696A for ; Mon, 8 Dec 2008 20:24:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse2 [133.2.253.17]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id mB94O2oc024134 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:24:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse2.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 5db2_3520bce0_c5a9_11dd_aec1_0019b9e2b3d9; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:24:02 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:54701) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 13:16:08 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081209132104.08247f98@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:23:01 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] minor nit on draft-20 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The end of this paragraph doesn't make sense to me: Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' (Section 3.1.8) fields. Each 'Prefix' indicates a suitable sequence of subtags for forming (with other subtags, as appropriate) a language tag using when the variant. I guess it should have been "when using the variant". Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 10:21:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E90E3A6930; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:21:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1063A6930 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:21:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.079 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.079 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.934, BAYES_50=0.001, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qRloZiRePNlP for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:21:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C6D3A6917 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:21:01 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=TmG3mauNOATkYYeozlRPKtXsnGsfyHnNypfXWEiyi+uvoVoQ3UOvoKA6AHqCUANs; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.147] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LA7Ca-0004no-9p for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:20:56 -0500 Message-ID: <004101c95a2b$196f7c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:22:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e42fee6ff3b2a529f1647d99cc5266ff11350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.147 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair: Does the removal of "car" from 639-5 affect the text in http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-08.txt? To wit: As a result of discussions with officials from the [ISO639-2] and [ISO639-3] registration agencies, it was determined that the existing language subtag 'car' would retain its existing Description, "Galibi Carib", and would continue to be identified as an individual language (i.e. no Scope value), even though the code element was also present in [ISO639-5] as a collection code with the name "Carib languages". As technical contributor: I think the use of the past tense "was also present" makes change unnecessary. Randy >From the ietf-languages@iana.org list: ----------------------------------------------------- From: "H=E5vard Hjulstad" To: "ISO 639 Joint Advisory Committee" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:36 AM Subject: ISO 639-5 item - car ISO 639 RAs-JAC has decided to remove the item "car" from the ISO 639-5 cod= e table (retaining the entry unchanged in ISO 639-2). ISO 639-5 had the item car Carib languages caribes, langues G car This item has now been deleted from the ISO 639-5 code table. ISO 639-2 has (since 2006-11-22) the item car Galibi Carib karib; galibi; carib This item remains unchanged. Best regards, H=E5vard Hjulstad -------------------- H=E5vard Hjulstad Standard Norge / Standards Norway Postboks 242, NO-1326 Lysaker bes=F8ksadresse / visiting address: Strandveien 18 tel: (+47) 67838600 | faks / fax: (+47) 67838601 direkte tel / direct tel: (+47) 67838645 hhj@standard.no http://www.standard.no/ -------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- _______________________________________________ Ietf-languages mailing list Ietf-languages@alvestrand.no http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 10:28:18 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A7153A6917; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:28:18 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14BFD3A6917 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:28:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.283, BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YKD0FP2fsIah for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:28:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2798E3A6810 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:28:16 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ihABAF3siiVpVPivTk7vmBAv3fxY4s/gg4ecMp7cAOEjKOwCmNxEejNS+GKKAlTA; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.147] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LA7JQ-0002Lh-Dd for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 13:28:00 -0500 Message-ID: <004601c95a2c$0829fc80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C2A4CE9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:28:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e41cf58b7994441eef43df04541e8cc468350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.147 Subject: Re: [Ltru] updated editors copy (seeking consensus) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 8:17 PM > Subject: [Ltru] updated editors copy (seeking consensus) ... > Static diff: > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/rfcdiff.pyht.htm ... Thanks. Looks good to me, taking into account the typo Martin spotted. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 10:43:32 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA3C53A6B42; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:43:32 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 259EE3A6AA5 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:43:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.124, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NoS7UaxaT+FG for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:43:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 023983A6810 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:43:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so48170yxg.49 for ; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:43:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=OWHz4gQmNVoTR68RIXTKa14Vo61khitMwtkZ+dlOLws=; b=Jyz5Bg6t2IuUYWirkfD1DRgjSBmzPUUaMkiR38m8Jpb2HAnLpnOMRd8ev+VygH3kvL kKJcXp4EVzrzr3WGnDPSsMN46WDN9pyxuZvSjkyH6gMmNMiu8ClUPLOLhOKX4ekiIGjk CvqejxJGIE2gSIRKbHrOmDI5Ye+GgDmeaE1uE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=sfxG56VkocjPOxoSKfDJxSoCF/tuHJruuXCj0+p3DdNIRhPnXvZjWI8EHT3ZuAeX2/ KKXO8UgPumLsk7th2y0xP4cvPICP0k+D7WbMDxW6LCghGU/AQqtWGhJOv8ddyzkU/ikj ubIVrv2ZBgWdQGjD7R7htOM5IMj6XZtW3EsnM= Received: by 10.100.227.6 with SMTP id z6mr404261ang.120.1228848204274; Tue, 09 Dec 2008 10:43:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.194.15 with HTTP; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:43:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812091043n848576tab0b0e0a3653e4dd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 10:43:24 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Phillips, Addison" In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A312B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <94FEA90F6B214F37BE0B96DB919F9845@DGBP7M81> <30b660a20812032239ub29a872w5b76c9d2f4361b51@mail.gmail.com> <001c01c955de$b4d30a00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDB41D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812041136q1cb1b736r1d78f77141fb7d05@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C0A312B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8b2f193da162c484 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] requiring full prefixes X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1770773163==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1770773163== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_74232_12078437.1228848204259" ------=_Part_74232_12078437.1228848204259 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Just to confirm, I'm not insisting on allowing "partial" language tags (or using "und"), given the timing. My concern was that we might need this in the future, but any subtag that would need it would just have to added with prefixes, perhaps with a comment about intended usage. I think the suggested language is not quite right yet, but will send a separate note. Mark On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 13:06, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > I don't find anything in #18 about removing wildcards. > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18 > > > > Unless I am missing something, the first time a change occurred was > > in #19, on Dec 2. > > Hmm... you're right. We just didn't publish draft-19 for awhile and the > memory does falter. We discussed this on the list some time ago. IIRC, Randy > pointed out that draft-18 (must have been) didn't prohibit the use of > wildcards, even though that was (as noted) the intention. > > > > > That was not in #18. So wildcards were allowed, and one could > > indicate just a script up until Dec 2. > > It was added in draft-07, so wildcards were not allowed previously (the > 4646-era text says "language tag"). The text doesn't indicate whether > wildcards are banned or not elsewhere, so I guess they were permitted up > until draft-19. The question is whether that was intentional or an > oversight. And, if an oversight, whether there is anything to be gained from > restoring the extended language range (including wildcards). I think there > is some merit for doing so, but am a little leery of it (as a form of > quondam generic variant). > > > > > Note: I think part of the confusion is that we mention Prefix in > > several places in the document, and we were probably talking about > > different places, because we sort-of define Prefix in 3 (!) places. > > Yes. And this is fairly redundant stuff too. See proto-draft-20 for a stab > at cutting back on the crossover. > > > > > That change maintains the ability to indicate that the primary > > subtag > > is not material to the matching process for a Prefix, by using > > "und" > > to stand for any language subtag in that case. That way a prefix of > > "und-Latn" for tag X means that "en-Latn-X", "fr-Latn-X", etc are > > valid. So it maintains the ability that was in up until Dec 2, but > > I really don't like the 'und' thing. It would be much better to just do > extended language range and extended filtering and permit the wildcard in > that case. We have instructions for implementation and everything. Then it > would just be up to ietf-languages@ and the LSR as to whether this feature > gets used and, if so, how. Using the wildcard calls attention to the fact > that the Prefix matches any primary language subtag. > > Perhaps a better question would be: if we go down that route, should we > then REQUIRE a prefix for all variants? '*', after all, is a valid extended > language range. The generic variant ickiness we have now looks problematic > by comparison. > > > > > > So here's what I'm proposing. > > We have versions that crossed over in email. Some notes follow on how I > incorporated your suggestions: > > > > > > > ============================ > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-2.2.5 > > > > The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of > > subtags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > > appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. That is, > > each of the subtags in the prefix SHOULD appear, in order, before > > the > > variant. > > > > => > > > > The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose > > subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > > appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant, according > > to > > [Section 3.1.8]. > > Good to include the link, but even better to remove repetitive examples, > etc. I propose: > > Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry > MAY include one or more 'Prefix' () > fields. Each 'Prefix' indicates a suitable sequence of subtags (with other > subtags, as appropriate) for forming a language tag when using the > variant. > > > > > ========= > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.2 > > > > Prefix's field-body contains an "extended language range" > > (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which > > SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming the language tag. > > The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in > > Prefix's record. The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'. > > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body > > is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > > > => > > > > The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose > > subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as > > appropriate) in forming a language tag, according to [Section > > 3.1.8]. > > This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body > > is either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > This is good. I modified my draft-20 to match thusly: > > Prefix > > Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag whose subtags are > RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's subtag. This > field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either > 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > > > The forward reference isn't necessary, I think, since we don't use it for > the other field types. > > > > > > > > ========= > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.8 > > > > Here's my proposed draft-20 text, revised to include your proposal: > >
> > The field 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose subtags are > RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's subtag, perhaps > with other subtags. That is, when including a subtag in a language tag, the > tag SHOULD match at least one of its Prefix fields using the "Extended > Filtering" algorithm (see ) and each of the > subtags in the Prefix SHOULD appear before the subtag itself. > > The 'Prefix' field MUST appear exactly once in a record of type > 'extlang' and MAY appear multiple times (or not at all) in records of type > 'variant'. Additional fields of this type MAY be added to a 'variant' record > via the registration process, provided the 'variant' record already has at > least one 'Prefix' field. > > > Each 'Prefix' field indicates a particular sequence of subtags that form > a meaningful tag with this subtag. For example, the extended language subtag > 'cmn' (Mandarin Chinese) only makes sense with its prefix 'zh' (Chinese). > Similarly, 'rozaj' (Resian, a dialect of Slovenian) would be appropriate > when used with its prefix 'sl' (Slovenian), while tags such as "is-1994" are > not appropriate (and probably not meaningful). Although the prefix for > 'rozaj' is "sl", other subtags might appear between them. For example, the > tag "sl-IT-rozaj" (Slovenian, Italy, Resian) matches the Prefix "sl". > > The 'Prefix' also indicates when variant subtags make sense when used > together (many that otherwise share a 'Prefix' are mutually exclusive) and > what the relative ordering of variants is supposed to be. For example, the > variant '1994' (Standardized Resian orthography) has several 'Prefix' fields > in the registry ("sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva", > "sl-rozaj-osojs", and "sl-rozaj-solba"). This not only indicates that '1994' > is appropriate to use with each of these five Resian variant subtags > ('rozaj', 'biske', 'njiva', 'osojs', and 'solba') but also that it SHOULD > appear following any of these variants in a tag. Thus, the language tag > ought to take the form "sl-rozaj-biske-1994" rather than > "sl-1994-rozaj-biske" or "sl-rozaj-1994-biske". > > Once registered, fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any > record. The field-body for this type of field MAY be modified, but only if > the modification broadens the meaning of the subtag. That is, the field-body > can be replaced only by a prefix of itself. For example, the Prefix > "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" > (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script). > > The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' > already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when no > valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, such as when > two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the other subtag. For > example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". > Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that > would require a tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would > not be valid. > >
> ------=_Part_74232_12078437.1228848204259 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Just to confirm, I'm not insisting on allowing "partial" language tags (or using "und"), given the timing. My concern was that we might need this in the future, but any subtag that would need it would just have to added with prefixes, perhaps with a comment about intended usage.

I think the suggested language is not quite right yet, but will send a separate note.

Mark


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 13:06, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:
>
> I don't find anything in #18 about removing wildcards.
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-18
>
> Unless I am missing something, the first time a change occurred was
> in #19, on Dec 2.

Hmm... you're right. We just didn't publish draft-19 for awhile and the memory does falter. We discussed this on the list some time ago. IIRC, Randy pointed out that draft-18 (must have been) didn't prohibit the use of wildcards, even though that was (as noted) the intention.

>
> That was not in #18. So wildcards were allowed, and one could
> indicate just a script up until Dec 2.

It was added in draft-07, so wildcards were not allowed previously (the 4646-era text says "language tag"). The text doesn't indicate whether wildcards are banned or not elsewhere, so I guess they were permitted up until draft-19. The question is whether that was intentional or an oversight. And, if an oversight, whether there is anything to be gained from restoring the extended language range (including wildcards). I think there is some merit for doing so, but am a little leery of it (as a form of quondam generic variant).

>
>    Note: I think part of the confusion is that we mention Prefix in
> several places in the document, and we were probably talking about
> different places, because we sort-of define Prefix in 3 (!) places.

Yes. And this is fairly redundant stuff too. See proto-draft-20 for a stab at cutting back on the crossover.

>
> That change maintains the ability to indicate that the primary
> subtag
> is not material to the matching process for a Prefix, by using
> "und"
> to stand for any language subtag in that case. That way a prefix of
> "und-Latn" for tag X means that "en-Latn-X", "fr-Latn-X", etc are
> valid. So it maintains the ability that was in up until Dec 2, but

I really don't like the 'und' thing. It would be much better to just do extended language range and extended filtering and permit the wildcard in that case. We have instructions for implementation and everything. Then it would just be up to ietf-languages@ and the LSR as to whether this feature gets used and, if so, how. Using the wildcard calls attention to the fact that the Prefix matches any primary language subtag.

Perhaps a better question would be: if we go down that route, should we then REQUIRE a prefix for all variants? '*', after all, is a valid extended language range. The generic variant ickiness we have now looks problematic by comparison.


>
> So here's what I'm proposing.

We have versions that crossed over in email. Some notes follow on how I incorporated your suggestions:

>
>
> ============================
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-2.2.5
>
> The 'Prefix' indicates a sequence of
> subtags that would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as
> appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant. That is,
> each of the subtags in the prefix SHOULD appear, in order, before
> the
> variant.
>
> =>
>
> The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose
> subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as
> appropriate) in forming a language tag with the variant, according
> to
> [Section 3.1.8].

Good to include the link, but even better to remove repetitive examples, etc. I propose:

<t hangText="Note: ">Variant subtag records in the language subtag registry MAY include one or more 'Prefix' (<xref target="prefixfield"></xref>) fields. Each 'Prefix' indicates a suitable sequence of subtags (with other subtags, as appropriate) for forming a language tag when using the variant.</t>

>
> =========
>
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.2
>
> Prefix's field-body contains an "extended language range"
> (basically, a collection of subtags, see [RFC4647]) which
> SHOULD be used with this subtag when forming the language tag.
> The subtags in the prefix MUST appear before the subtag in
> Prefix's record.  The Prefix MUST NOT include the wildcard '*'.
> This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body
> is either 'extlang' or 'variant'.
>
> =>
>
> The 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose
> subtags would make a suitable prefix (with other subtags, as
> appropriate) in forming a language tag, according to [Section
> 3.1.8].
> This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body
> is either 'extlang' or 'variant'.

This is good. I modified my draft-20 to match thusly:

<t>Prefix<list>

<t>Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag whose subtags are RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's subtag. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is either 'extlang' or 'variant'.</t>
</list>
</t>

The forward reference isn't necessary, I think, since we don't use it for the other field types.


>
>
> =========
>
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-19#section-3.1.8
>

Here's my proposed draft-20 text, revised to include your proposal:

<section anchor="prefixfield" title="Prefix Field">

<t>The field 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose subtags are RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's subtag, perhaps with other subtags. That is, when including a subtag in a language tag, the tag SHOULD match at least one of its Prefix fields using the "Extended Filtering" algorithm (see <xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) and each of the subtags in the Prefix SHOULD appear before the subtag itself. </t>

<t>The 'Prefix' field MUST appear exactly once in a record of type 'extlang' and MAY appear multiple times (or not at all) in records of type 'variant'. Additional fields of this type MAY be added to a 'variant' record via the registration process, provided the 'variant' record already has at least one 'Prefix' field.
</t>

<t>Each 'Prefix' field indicates a particular sequence of subtags that form a meaningful tag with this subtag. For example, the extended language subtag 'cmn' (Mandarin Chinese) only makes sense with its prefix 'zh' (Chinese). Similarly, 'rozaj' (Resian, a dialect of Slovenian) would be appropriate when used with its prefix 'sl' (Slovenian), while tags such as "is-1994" are not appropriate (and probably not meaningful). Although the prefix for 'rozaj' is "sl", other subtags might appear between them. For example, the tag "sl-IT-rozaj" (Slovenian, Italy, Resian) matches the Prefix "sl".</t>

<t>The 'Prefix' also indicates when variant subtags make sense when used together (many that otherwise share a 'Prefix' are mutually exclusive) and what the relative ordering of variants is supposed to be. For example, the variant '1994' (Standardized Resian orthography) has several 'Prefix' fields in the registry ("sl-rozaj", "sl-rozaj-biske", "sl-rozaj-njiva", "sl-rozaj-osojs", and "sl-rozaj-solba"). This not only indicates that '1994' is appropriate to use with each of these five Resian variant subtags ('rozaj', 'biske', 'njiva', 'osojs', and 'solba') but also that it SHOULD appear following any of these variants in a tag. Thus, the language tag ought to take the form "sl-rozaj-biske-1994" rather than "sl-1994-rozaj-biske" or "sl-rozaj-1994-biske".</t>

<t>Once registered, fields of type 'Prefix' MUST NOT be removed from any record. The field-body for this type of field MAY be modified, but only if the modification broadens the meaning of the subtag. That is, the field-body can be replaced only by a prefix of itself. For example, the Prefix "be-Latn" (Belarusian, Latin script) could be replaced by the Prefix "be" (Belarusian) but not by the Prefix "ru-Latn" (Russian, Latin script).</t>

<t>The field-body of the 'Prefix' field MUST NOT conflict with any 'Prefix' already registered for a given record. Such a conflict would occur when no valid tag could be constructed that would contain the prefix, such as when two subtags each have a 'Prefix' that contains the other subtag. For example, suppose that the subtag 'avariant' has the prefix "es-bvariant". Then the subtag 'bvariant' cannot given the prefix 'avariant', for that would require a tag of the form "es-avariant-bvariant-avariant", which would not be valid.</t>

</section>

------=_Part_74232_12078437.1228848204259-- --===============1770773163== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1770773163==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 12:06:11 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4240D28C0F6; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:06:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651133A6980 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:06:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.085, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5+Qm8O00vWLH for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:06:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDA7A3A695F for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:06:08 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,743,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="98734609" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Dec 2008 20:06:00 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB9K5wOo023081 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:06:00 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:05:57 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:05:56 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Prefix field (was: Hand-off to AD) Thread-Index: AclaNUUCN0o5mY00QtGPkvW5BWcWuAAAM+NgAADM4mA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C354A9A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA60E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20081209115545.08225ff8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C2A4C9B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001801c959af$daff8ee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C2A4CE4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812091104t573a534fn23098bea47381fcc@mail.gmail.com> <001401c95a35$78a1b580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Prefix field (was: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org The following response didn't go on-list because it replied to a message off-list (which I think might not have been intentional). However, since it means a change in draft-20, I'm posting it here. Draft-20 has been updated as noted in my response. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: Phillips, Addison > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 11:52 AM > To: 'Randy Presuhn'; Mark Davis > Cc: Martin Duerst > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Prefix field (was: Hand-off to AD) > > (editor hat ON) > > I made the appearance sentence read: > > -- > This field MAY appear in records whose 'Type' field-body is either > 'extlang' or 'variant' (it MUST NOT appear in any other record > type). > -- > > (editor hat OFF) > > I disagree with Mark's proposed edit. It isn't consistent with the > other blocks around it. However, his point about the plurality of > the field is well taken. I propose this edit: > > Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag that is > RECOMMENDED as one possible prefix to this record's subtag. This > field MAY appear in records whose 'Type' field-body is either > 'extlang' or 'variant' (it MUST NOT appear in any other record > type). > > Elsewhere we deal with the specifics of the Prefix field. To > resolve the editing I propose this edit of the first paragraph: > > The field 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag that is > RECOMMENDED as one possible prefix to this record's subtag, perhaps > with other subtags. That is, when including an extended language or > a variant subtag that has at least one 'Prefix' in a language tag, > the resulting tag SHOULD match at least one of the subtag's > 'Prefix' fields using the "Extended Filtering" algorithm (see target="RFC4647">) and each of the subtags in the 'Prefix' > SHOULD appear before the subtag itself. > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Randy Presuhn [mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 11:37 AM > > To: Mark Davis; Phillips, Addison > > Cc: Martin Duerst > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD > > > > Hi - > > > > > From: "Mark Davis" > > > To: "Phillips, Addison" > > > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "Martin > > Duerst" > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 11:04 AM > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD > > > > > > > > This message is just about fixing the text for Prefix, making > no > > subtantive > > > change. The text still isn't quite right. The wording implies > > that every > > > prefix's subtags are recommended, when it is actually just at > > least one. And > > > the last condition is slightly vague, with unclear referents. > > Recommended > > > wording below. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis- > > 20.html#recordformat > > > > > > Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag whose subtags > > are > > > RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's > subtag. > > This > > > field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' field-body is > > either > > > 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > > > > > => > > > > > > Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag. If there are > > any Prefix > > > fields, then it is RECOMMENDED that any language tag containing > > this > > > record's subtag also contain all the subtags from at least one > > Prefix field, > > > in order. This field MUST appear only in records whose 'Type' > > field-body is > > > either 'extlang' or 'variant'. > > > > I don't think the proposed text is that much of an improvement, > but > > I don't object to it. However, now that my attention is drawn to > > it, > > I *do* have a problem with both the original and the proposed > text. > > There is a scope / quantifier problem in the last sentence. The > > "MUST" > > should be a "MAY", since the field is optional. (If we looked > > closely, > > we'd probably find others of the form "x MUST y only in records > of > > type z" > > where what is actually intended is "x MAY y in records of type z, > > and > > x MUST NOT y in records not of type z.) > > > > > http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis- > > 20.html#prefixfield > > > > > > The field 'Prefix' contains a valid language tag whose subtags > > are > > > RECOMMENDED for use together as a prefix for this record's > subtag, > > perhaps > > > with other subtags. That is, when including a subtag in a > > language tag, the > > > tag SHOULD match at least one of its 'Prefix' fields using the > > "Extended > > > Filtering" algorithm (see [RFC4647] (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, > > "Matching of > > > Language Tags," September > > > 2006.) > 20.html#RFC4647>) > > > and each of the subtags in the 'Prefix' SHOULD appear before > the > > subtag > > > itself. > > > > > > => > > > > > > Prefix's field-body contains a valid language tag. If there are > > any Prefix > > > fields, then it is RECOMMENDED that any language tag containing > > this > > > record's subtag also contain all the subtags from at least one > > Prefix field, > > > in order. That is, when including a subtag in a language tag, > > the tag > > > SHOULD match at least one of its 'Prefix' fields using the > > "Extended > > > Filtering" algorithm (see [RFC4647] (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, > > "Matching of > > > Language Tags," September > > > 2006.) > 20.html#RFC4647>). > > > Moreover, in the language tag each of the subtags in the > matched > > 'Prefix' > > > SHOULD appear before this record's subtag. > > > > I don't think the proposed text is that much of an improvement, > but > > I don't object to it. However, the final "this record's subtag" > > made > > me do a double take, because it sounded like it was describing a > > constraint > > on the formatting of the record, rather than the use of the > subtag > > described > > by the record. > > > > Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 12:07:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 731073A6996; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:07:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA403A6996 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:07:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.129, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CTx2MQf53Ovo for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC9D43A6980 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:07:48 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,743,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="153312952" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Dec 2008 20:07:43 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mB9K7hRX007806 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:07:43 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:07:42 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:07:41 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Prefix field (was: Hand-off to AD) Thread-Index: AclaNUUCN0o5mY00QtGPkvW5BWcWuAAAM+NgAADM4mAAAB3nsA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C354AA4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <20081203053002.240EC3A6A2F@core3.amsl.com> <007101c95565$0113c320$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20812030924s67a8be9h948d172efe8f6405@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017BFDA60E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <6.0.0.20.2.20081209115545.08225ff8@localhost> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C2A4C9B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001801c959af$daff8ee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C2A4CE4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20812091104t573a534fn23098bea47381fcc@mail.gmail.com> <001401c95a35$78a1b580$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C354A9A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C354A9A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Prefix field (was: Hand-off to AD) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) Static diff file is now up to date on my site also. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 20:23:06 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E12F3A68D3; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:23:06 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9623A68D3 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:23:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.159 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.159 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.420, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Iito1JtX9JI6 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:23:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpout06.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 18B323A6820 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 20:23:03 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 9796 invoked from network); 10 Dec 2008 04:22:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpout06-04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.227) with ESMTP; 10 Dec 2008 04:22:54 -0000 Message-ID: <69FBD76F2C89447B81218E73EEB63C7B@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:22:52 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IERvZXMgdGhlIHJlbW92YWwgb2YgImNhciIgZnJvbSA2MzktNSBhZmZl Y3QgdGhlIHRleHQgaW4KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL2ludGVybmV0LWRyYWZ0cy9kcmFm dC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NWJpcy0wOC50eHQ/Cj4gVG8gd2l0Ogo+Cj4gICBBcyBhIHJlc3VsdCBv ZiBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucyB3aXRoIG9mZmljaWFscyBmcm9tIHRoZSBbSVNPNjM5LTJdIGFuZAo+ICAg W0lTTzYzOS0zXSByZWdpc3RyYXRpb24gYWdlbmNpZXMsIGl0IHdhcyBkZXRlcm1pbmVkIHRoYXQg dGhlCj4gICBleGlzdGluZyBsYW5ndWFnZSBzdWJ0YWcgJ2Nhcicgd291bGQgcmV0YWluIGl0cyBl eGlzdGluZwo+ICAgRGVzY3JpcHRpb24sICJHYWxpYmkgQ2FyaWIiLCBhbmQgd291bGQgY29udGlu dWUgdG8gYmUgaWRlbnRpZmllZCBhcwo+ICAgYW4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbCBsYW5ndWFnZSAoaS5lLiBu byBTY29wZSB2YWx1ZSksIGV2ZW4gdGhvdWdoIHRoZSBjb2RlCj4gICBlbGVtZW50IHdhcyBhbHNv IHByZXNlbnQgaW4gW0lTTzYzOS01XSBhcyBhIGNvbGxlY3Rpb24gY29kZSB3aXRoIHRoZQo+ICAg bmFtZSAiQ2FyaWIgbGFuZ3VhZ2VzIi4KCkkgaGFkIHBsYW5uZWQgdG8gcmVtb3ZlIHRoYXQgcGFy YWdyYXBoIGlmIGFuZCB3aGVuIHN1Y2ggYW4gYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50IAp3YXMgbWFkZS4gIEl0J3Mg YW4gdWdseSB3YXJ0IG9uIHRoZSBwcm9jZXNzIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBieSBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLgoK Tm90ZSB0aGF0IHRoaXMgY2hhbmdlIHdpbGwgZ28gaW50byBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzLTA5LCB3aGlj aCBJIHdpbGwgcG9zdCAKYXMgYW4gImVkaXRvcidzIGNvcHkiIG9uIG15IHNpdGUsIGJ1dCB3aWxs IG5vdCBzdWJtaXQgZXhjZXB0IGJ5IHJlcXVlc3QgCm9mIHRoZSBjaGFpcnMsIElFVEYsIElFU0cs IG9yIHRoZSBSRkMgRWRpdG9yLCBhbmQgbm90IGluIGFueSBhdHRlbXB0IHRvIAoiY29vcmRpbmF0 ZSIgd2l0aCBkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzLCBkdWUgdG8gcmVjZW50IGZhaWx1cmVzIG9mIHRoYXQgZWZm b3J0LgoKPiBBcyB0ZWNobmljYWwgY29udHJpYnV0b3I6Cj4KPiBJIHRoaW5rIHRoZSB1c2Ugb2Yg dGhlIHBhc3QgdGVuc2UgIndhcyBhbHNvIHByZXNlbnQiIG1ha2VzIGNoYW5nZQo+IHVubmVjZXNz YXJ5LgoKSSBhZ3JlZSwgYnV0IHJlbW92aW5nIHRoZSBwYXNzYWdlIGlzIGhhcm1sZXNzIHRvby4K Ci0tCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAg KiAgVVROICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3Jn Cmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 9 21:22:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B696D3A6820; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:22:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C333A6820 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:21:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EC1yyOhxaKI5 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:21:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 051013A67F4 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:21:58 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WtObMY+DJFbUzm21ED3AEeve41F6ibYLI5yusGDPLH2BC2l9/+ixpSqe3lm/Ese6; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.206.99] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LAHWC-0005Vl-9b for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:21:52 -0500 Message-ID: <004301c95a87$6e3f5960$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <69FBD76F2C89447B81218E73EEB63C7B@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:23:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e473e8b707b87a92b2e2e576645dae8098350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.206.99 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car ... > I had planned to remove that paragraph if and when such an announcement > was made. It's an ugly wart on the process described by draft-4645bis. > > Note that this change will go into draft-4645bis-09, which I will post > as an "editor's copy" on my site, but will not submit except by request > of the chairs, IETF, IESG, or the RFC Editor, and not in any attempt to > "coordinate" with draft-4646bis, due to recent failures of that effort. > > > As technical contributor: > > > > I think the use of the past tense "was also present" makes change > > unnecessary. > > I agree, but removing the passage is harmless too. ... Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor... I'd prefer to just leave the text as-is. Yes, it ends up being a historical footnote. However, it could be a helpful footnote if someone goes at it with an out-of-date copy of the 639-5 list. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 10 13:57:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 574C53A68B8; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:38 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A213A68B8 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FnFpAayxyEOs for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937F33A68AD for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:35 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,749,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="176353305" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Dec 2008 21:57:29 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBALvQOR007808 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:57:28 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.311.4; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:26 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:56:23 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:57:25 -0800 Thread-Topic: draft 20: final nits before submission Thread-Index: AclbEklQH4/jodJoRYyQI4lU3QHITQ== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C43B587@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft 20: final nits before submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat ON) I am preparing draft-20 for submission. A few editorial changes are occurring as a result: 1. I have spell-checked the document and fixed a few repeated words and typos. 2. I have run idnits. As a result, the reference to RFC 2434 is being replaced by its successor RFC 5226 and the term "IETF Consensus" replaced with the term "IETF Review" in Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry). 3. Note to AD and Co-chairs. I am generating with xml2rfc (the online version). I have thus not updated the boilerplate to RFC 4748. 4. ABNF parsed clean. I'm now headed for a meeting. I will send a note when I have posted the draft intended for submission. Tonight (i.e. 20:00 Pacific Standard Time) I will submit the draft. So: this is the last of the last calls on draft-20. Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 10 16:00:33 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DC1D28C205; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:00:33 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636243A6C13 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:00:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDfQZnuzRFHt for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C723A699D for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,749,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="154155000" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Dec 2008 00:00:19 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBB00J0Z025398 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 00:00:19 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:00:19 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:00:18 -0800 Thread-Topic: draft-20 online... Thread-Index: AclbI3PEJb6r7KWmSd6eWXzItdGiZw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C43B74F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-20 online... X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Some time ago I posted draft-20 that I propose to submit to inter-locale.com. I have not updated the static diff, so hurt my server and use the realtime link. Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 10 20:35:00 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EB493A6879; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:35:00 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D8B3A6879 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:34:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hcXWSIpkkKY9 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:34:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CD553A6878 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.33,750,1220227200"; d="scan'208";a="176635898" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Dec 2008 04:34:49 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBB4YiBI006093 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 04:34:49 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:34:44 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:34:44 -0800 Thread-Topic: draft-20: submitted. Thread-Index: AclbScpnnbn8OPLgRlW61UW0uGdLhw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C43B99E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-20: submitted. X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Draft-20 is now submitted. IDnits, ABNF parser, speller all clean. I will update inter-locale in the morning to reflect submission status. Co-chairs: over to you. Addison (for the editors) Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 10 20:45:04 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EAB428C1D0; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:45:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id DECBE28C1AD; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:45:01 -0800 (PST) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20081211044501.DECBE28C1AD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 20:45:01 -0800 (PST) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt Pages : 89 Date : 2008-12-10 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2008-12-10203248.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --NextPart-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 10 21:46:38 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABB83A6C29; 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11 Dec 2008 05:46:25 -0000 Message-ID: <068F14ED650047509A707F01A90BA96A@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 22:46:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEknZCBwcmVmZXIgdG8ganVzdCBsZWF2ZSB0aGUgdGV4dCBhcy1pcy4g IFllcywgaXQgZW5kcwo+IHVwIGJlaW5nIGEgaGlzdG9yaWNhbCBmb290bm90ZS4gIEhvd2V2ZXIs IGl0IGNvdWxkIGJlIGEKPiBoZWxwZnVsIGZvb3Rub3RlIGlmIHNvbWVvbmUgZ29lcyBhdCBpdCB3 aXRoIGFuIG91dC1vZi1kYXRlCj4gY29weSBvZiB0aGUgNjM5LTUgbGlzdC4KCklmIHlvdSBzYXkg c28uCgpBY3R1YWxseSwgSSBkb24ndCBrbm93IGhvdyBtYW55IHBlb3BsZSBhcmUgbGlrZWx5IHRv IGhhdmUgYW4gb3V0LW9mLWRhdGUgCmNvcHkgb2YgdGhlIDYzOS01IGxpc3QsIG9yIGEgY3VycmVu dCBjb3B5IGZvciB0aGF0IG1hdHRlci4gIEl0J3Mgb2YgCnJhdGhlciBsaW1pdGVkIHB1YmxpYyBp bnRlcmVzdCBhbmQgaXMgbm90IGZyZWVseSBhdmFpbGFibGUsIGFuZCBldmVuIAp0aG91Z2ggSSBr bm93ICJmcmVlbHkgYXZhaWxhYmxlIiBpcyBub3Qgb25lIG9mIHRoaXMgV0cncyBjcml0ZXJpYSwg dGhlIApJU08gcHJpY2Ugb2YgMTA1IFN3aXNzIEZyYW5jcyAoODUgVVMgZG9sbGFycyBvciA2NSBl dXJvcykgaXMgbGlrZWx5IHRvIAprZWVwIGF3YXkgbW9zdCBjYXN1YWwgcmVhZGVycy4KCi0tCkRv dWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVRO ICMxNApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hh cnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwKaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4v bGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdApMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnCmh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQo= From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 10 23:24:43 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20EAB3A69D2; 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Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:24:35 -0800 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:24:35 -0800 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:24:31 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car Thread-Index: AclbU9e8Z23nn6JRTQuIa81U4mwM+QADZHVw Message-ID: References: <068F14ED650047509A707F01A90BA96A@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <068F14ED650047509A707F01A90BA96A@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] ISO 639-5 item - car X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org VGhlIDYzOS01IGRhdGEgdGFibGUgd2lsbCBiZSBtYWRlIGZyZWVseSBhdmFpbGFibGUsIGJ1dCB0 aGUgd2FydHMgYXJlIGJlaW5nIGNsZWFuZWQgdXAgZmlyc3QuDQoNCg0KUGV0ZXINCg0KDQotLS0t LU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWls dG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRG91ZyBFd2VsbA0KU2VudDog V2VkbmVzZGF5LCBEZWNlbWJlciAxMCwgMjAwOCA5OjQ2IFBNDQpUbzogTFRSVSBXb3JraW5nIEdy b3VwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIElTTyA2MzktNSBpdGVtIC0gY2FyDQoNClJhbmR5IFBy ZXN1aG4gPHJhbmR5IHVuZGVyc2NvcmUgcHJlc3VobiBhdCBtaW5kc3ByaW5nIGRvdCBjb20+IHdy b3RlOg0KDQo+IEknZCBwcmVmZXIgdG8ganVzdCBsZWF2ZSB0aGUgdGV4dCBhcy1pcy4gIFllcywg aXQgZW5kcw0KPiB1cCBiZWluZyBhIGhpc3RvcmljYWwgZm9vdG5vdGUuICBIb3dldmVyLCBpdCBj b3VsZCBiZSBhDQo+IGhlbHBmdWwgZm9vdG5vdGUgaWYgc29tZW9uZSBnb2VzIGF0IGl0IHdpdGgg YW4gb3V0LW9mLWRhdGUNCj4gY29weSBvZiB0aGUgNjM5LTUgbGlzdC4NCg0KSWYgeW91IHNheSBz by4NCg0KQWN0dWFsbHksIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBob3cgbWFueSBwZW9wbGUgYXJlIGxpa2VseSB0 byBoYXZlIGFuIG91dC1vZi1kYXRlDQpjb3B5IG9mIHRoZSA2MzktNSBsaXN0LCBvciBhIGN1cnJl bnQgY29weSBmb3IgdGhhdCBtYXR0ZXIuICBJdCdzIG9mDQpyYXRoZXIgbGltaXRlZCBwdWJsaWMg aW50ZXJlc3QgYW5kIGlzIG5vdCBmcmVlbHkgYXZhaWxhYmxlLCBhbmQgZXZlbg0KdGhvdWdoIEkg a25vdyAiZnJlZWx5IGF2YWlsYWJsZSIgaXMgbm90IG9uZSBvZiB0aGlzIFdHJ3MgY3JpdGVyaWEs IHRoZQ0KSVNPIHByaWNlIG9mIDEwNSBTd2lzcyBGcmFuY3MgKDg1IFVTIGRvbGxhcnMgb3IgNjUg ZXVyb3MpIGlzIGxpa2VseSB0bw0Ka2VlcCBhd2F5IG1vc3QgY2FzdWFsIHJlYWRlcnMuDQoNCi0t DQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29sb3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICog IFVUTiAjMTQNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0 bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2VzICDLhg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCkx0cnVAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0KX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxp c3QKTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZwpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0 cnUK From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 11 10:56:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF3D28C152; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:56:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0CB3A69A0 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:56:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.467 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.467 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.131, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9jjEq6Ugj8cZ for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:55:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s37.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s37.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.112]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02CE628C0E2 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W1 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s37.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 11 Dec 2008 10:55:53 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:55:52 -0500 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Dec 2008 18:55:53.0189 (UTC) FILETIME=[1771D950:01C95BC2] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Request for clarification (Was: requiring full prefixes) (I made a minor correction to my previous post) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0013673297==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0013673297== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d0a088e7-7307-4218-92a6-1f837c4e44ce_" --_d0a088e7-7307-4218-92a6-1f837c4e44ce_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. I am a bit confused=3B does Mark mean to say that--at some date in the= future--we may or 'SHOULD' reconsider allowing 'partial' language tags? I= f so=2C I too think it a good idea to keep this option open for the future-= -although I agree now that reconsidering 'partial' language tags for this d= raft would be too much of a change at this point. (And in any case I comple= tely disagree with 'und' 's acting as a wildcard in the prefix for another = subtag=2C since 'und' is a subtag itself--and if 'und' were part of the pre= fix=2C my opinion is that people would use 'und'--rather than any of a numb= er of language subtags--as the prefix for the variant in question=3B that i= s 'und' would not be seen as a wildcard. )Alas=2C however=2C after reviewin= g both the current draft and previous discussions=2C I'm just more confused= about the rules for prefixes. --CEWFrom: "Mark Davis" Date: Tue=2C 9 Dec 2008 10:43:24 -0800 > Just to confirm=2C I'm not ins= isting on allowing "partial" language tags (or using "und")=2C given the > = timing. My concern was that we might need this in the future=2C but any sub= tag that would need > it would just have to added with prefixes=2C perhaps = with a comment about intended usage.We did discusss "partial" prefixes prev= iously. (See the ietf-discussion about "zh-Latn-pinyin":http://www.alvestra= nd.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2008-July/007816.html =20 'Peter Constable petercon at microsoft.comThu Jul 31 07:56:58 CEST 2008' ' >I'm inclined to think it a mistake for "fonipa" not to require "Latn".' = )As I said above=2C I am quite confused about 'partial prefixes' now after = reviewing this discussion. My questions: (1). Is it possible to register a= subtag like 'Latn' as a prefix for a variant--without specifying language = codes (I thought a whole prefix had to be registered & that's my understand= ing from one of the recent versions of the draft I've read too). (2). Had '= Latn' been registered as a prefix for 'fonipa=2C' would it's prefix have th= us been:*-Latn(3). Finally=2C the current draft=2C section 3.4=2C paragrap= h 2=2C item 7 specifies that "The field 'Prefix' . . . SHOULD be included i= n the initial registration of any records of type 'variant'" -- which mean= s=2C I guess=2C that prefixes are recommended for but not required for vari= ants. So should we have registered a prefix of 'Latn' for 'fonipa'? Can any= one clarify this? Thanks. --C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com = --_d0a088e7-7307-4218-92a6-1f837c4e44ce_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi.
 =3B
I am a bit confused=3B does Mark mean to say that--at s= ome date in the future--we may or =3B'SHOULD' =3Breconsider allowin= g 'partial' language tags? =3B If so=2C =3BI =3Btoo think it a = good idea to keep this option open for the future--although =3BI agree&= nbsp=3Bnow that reconsidering 'partial' language tags =3Bfor this draft= would be too much of a change at this point.
 =3B
(And in any ca= se I completely =3Bdisagree with 'und' 's =3Bacting as a wildcard i= n the prefix for another subtag=2C since 'und' is a subtag itself--and = =3Bif 'und' were part of the prefix=2C my opinion is that people would = =3Buse 'und'--rather than any of a number of language subtags--as the prefi= x for the variant in question=3B that is 'und' would not be seen as a wildc= ard. =3B)

Alas=2C however=2C =3Bafter =3Breviewing both&= nbsp=3Bthe current =3Bdraft and previous discussions=2C I'm just = =3Bmore confused about the rules for prefixes.
 =3B
--CEW
= From: "Mark Davis" <=3Bmark at macchiato.com>=3B
Date: Tue=2C 9 Dec 2008 10:43:24 -0800
&nbs= p=3B


>=3B Just to confirm=2C I'm not insisting on a= llowing "partial" language tags (or using "und")=2C given the >=3B = =3Btiming. My concern was that we might need this in the future=2C but any = subtag that would need >=3B =3Bit would just have to added with prefi= xes=2C perhaps with a comment about intended usage.

We did discusss = "partial" prefixes previously. =3B
(See the ietf-discussion about "z= h-Latn-pinyin":
http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languag= es/2008-July/007816.html
 =3B
'Peter Constable petercon at microsoft.com
Thu Jul 31 07:56:58 CEST 2008= '

' >=3BI'm inclined to think it a mistake for "fonipa" not to require = "Latn".' )

As I said above=2C I =3Bam quite confused about 'part= ial prefixes' now after reviewing this discussion.
 =3B
My questi= ons: =3B
 =3B
(1). =3BIs it possible to register =3Ba= subtag like 'Latn' as a prefix for a variant--without specifying language = codes (I thought a whole prefix had to =3Bbe registered &=3B that's = my understanding from =3Bone of the recent =3Bversions of the draft= I've read too).
 =3B
(2). =3BHad =3B'Latn' been register= ed as a prefix for =3B'fonipa=2C' would it's prefix have thus been:
= *-Latn

(3). =3B Finally=2C the current draft=2C section 3.4=2C p= aragraph 2=2C item 7 specifies that "The field 'Prefix' . . . SHOULD be inc= luded in the initial registration of any records of type 'variant'" =3B= --
 =3B
which means=2C I guess=2C that prefixes are recommended = for but not required for variants.
 =3B
So should we have registe= red a prefix of 'Latn' for 'fonipa'?
 =3B
Can anyone clarify this= ?
 =3B
Thanks.
 =3B
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

 =3B


 =3B


= --_d0a088e7-7307-4218-92a6-1f837c4e44ce_-- --===============0013673297== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0013673297==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 11 20:01:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7497F3A69F4; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C214B3A694A for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.246, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Y1jrt1ejcLL for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFE033A6774 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:01:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=lIUVKbLI37egfkmDSI+yqB8444WBex3anlnoP0aFz44J0g2+TQhipCC8fiXzzVsY; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.28.157] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LAzDV-0005PF-HE for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Dec 2008 23:01:29 -0500 Message-ID: <002801c95c0e$8a76aa60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:03:06 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4aee86ae33b89080f9aa1cec736d3ab4e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.28.157 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Request for clarification (Was: requiring full prefixes) (I made a minor correction to my previous post) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "CE Whitehead" > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:55 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Request for clarification (Was: requiring full prefixes) (I made a minor correction to my previous post) ... > does Mark mean to say that--at some date in the future-- > we may or 'SHOULD' reconsider allowing 'partial' language tags? Not speaking for Mark, but as a co-chair... Our intention is to wrap up this WG as soon as the current batch of RFCs is published. ... > Alas, however, after reviewing both the current draft > and previous discussions, I'm just more confused about > the rules for prefixes. ... I believe we have a rough consensus on how prefixes are supposed to work, and the text in the draft reflects that consensus. We'll be handing the draft to our AD real soon now, so if you still have a problem with it, I suggest you take up the issue during IETF last call. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 15 06:07:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524D73A69D3; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CA443A69D3 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:07:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.026 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.026 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.573, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aG2Tnc3QxmYQ for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 88CDC3A679C for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:07:38 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 13392 invoked from network); 15 Dec 2008 14:07:31 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.95) with ESMTP; 15 Dec 2008 14:07:29 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20081211224832.C04F33A69BD@core3.amsl.com><87zlj1zn0n.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org><87fxktxn7f.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <20081212195050.233A83A6B15@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:07:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73 Plenary X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UnVzcyBIb3VzbGV5IDxob3VzbGV5IGF0IHZpZ2lsc2VjIGRvdCBjb20+IHJlc3BvbmRlZCB0byBT aW1vbiBKb3NlZnNzb24gCm9uIHRoZSBtYWluIElFVEYgbGlzdDoKCj4+IEFzIGZhciBhcyBJIHVu ZGVyc3RhbmQsIEkgY2FuIG5vIGxvbmdlciB0YWtlIFJGQyA0Mzk4LCBmaXggc29tZSBtaW5vciAK Pj4gcHJvYmxlbSwgYW5kIHJlLXN1Ym1pdCBpdCBhcyBhIFJGQyA0Mzk4YmlzLiAgRXZlbiB0aG91 Z2ggSSB3YXMgZWRpdG9yIAo+PiBvZiBSRkMgNDM5OC4gIFRoZSByZWFzb24gaXMgdGhhdCBzb21l IG1hdGVyaWFsIGluIHRoYXQgZG9jdW1lbnQgd2FzIAo+PiB3cml0dGVuIGJ5IG90aGVycy4gIEF0 IGxlYXN0LCBJIGNhbm5vdCBkbyB0aGlzLCB3aXRob3V0IGdldHRpbmcgCj4+IHBlcm1pc3Npb24g ZnJvbSB0aGUgb3RoZXIgcGVvcGxlIHdobyB3cm90ZSB0aGUgaW5pdGlhbCBkb2N1bWVudC4gIEkg Cj4+IHdpc2ggdGhpcyBpcyBtaXN0YWtlbiBhbmQgdGhhdCBzb21lb25lIGNhbiBleHBsYWluIGhv dyB0byByZWNvbmNpbGUgCj4+IHRoaXMgZXhhbXBsZSB3aXRoIHdoYXQgUnVzcyB3cm90ZS4KPgo+ IENvcnJlY3QuICBSRkMgNTM3OCBpbXBvc2VzIHRoaXMgYnVyZGVuIG9uIHRoZSBjb250cmlidXRv ci4gIEFsbCBvZiB0aGUgCj4gcmlnaHRzIG5lZWRlZCB0byBtYWtlIHVwZGF0ZXMgdG8gdGhlIGRv Y3VtZW50IHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgSUVURiAKPiBTdGFuZGFyZHMgUHJvY2VzcyBhcmUgY2xlYXJseSBh bHJlYWR5IGF2YWlsYWJsZSwgYnV0IHRoZSBjb250cmlidXRvciAKPiBpcyByZXF1aXJlZCB0byBv YnRhaW4gdGhlIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgcmlnaHRzIHRoYXQgYXJlIHJlcXVpcmVkIGJ5IFJGQyAKPiA1 Mzc4LgoKR2l2ZW4gdGhhdCBkcmFmdC00NjQ2YmlzIGNvbnRhaW5zIHNpZ25pZmljYW50IHRleHQg ZnJvbSBSRkMgNDY0NiwgYW5kIApldmVuIGEgYml0IG9mIHRleHQgZnJvbSBSRkMgMTc2NiBhbmQg MzA2NiAod3JpdHRlbiBieSBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCAKYXV0aG9yKSwgSSB3b3VsZCBsaWtlIHRoZSBj by1jaGFpcnMgdG8gZXZhbHVhdGUgdGhlIGVmZmVjdCBvZiB0aGUgbmV3IApJRVRGIElQUiBwb2xp Y3kgb24gZHJhZnQtNDY0NmJpcywgaW4gY29vcmRpbmF0aW9uIHdpdGggdGhlIEFEIGlmIApuZWNl c3NhcnkuICBBcyBhIGdyb3VwLCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgYmUgcHJlcGFyZWQgdG8gYW5zd2VyIGFueSBJ UFIgCnF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhYm91dCB0aGlzIGRyYWZ0IHRoYXQgYXJpc2UgZHVyaW5nIElFVEYgTGFz dCBDYWxsLgoKQmVjYXVzZSBkcmFmdC00NjQ1YmlzIGNvbnRhaW5zIGFsbCBuZXcgdGV4dCwgbm9u ZSBjYXJyaWVkIG92ZXIgZnJvbSBSRkMgCjQ2NDUgb3IgYW55IG90aGVyIFJGQywgSSBiZWxpZXZl IGl0IGhhcyBubyBpc3N1ZXMgb2YgdGhpcyBzb3J0LgoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50 b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdl bGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIu aHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQubm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1 YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Ckx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 15 10:08:13 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB72F3A6804; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:08:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B480E3A6804 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:08:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.942, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S6zlAUp1MvMP for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:08:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.63]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC58C3A67F7 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:08:11 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Ele7/yR2RZ3rxTBQ8hZCTxDt1jUfqSsx/exvlyLYXCuzHMUWzCjIx5F1ewJTT6pt; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.29] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-junco.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LCHrM-0008Rh-M2 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 13:08:00 -0500 Message-ID: <003601c95ee0$52c07680$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20081211224832.C04F33A69BD@core3.amsl.com><87zlj1zn0n.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org><87fxktxn7f.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org><20081212195050.233A83A6B15@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:09:49 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4742687060bf6eee0cc055b285e141ad9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.29 Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary ... > Given that draft-4646bis contains significant text from RFC 4646, and > even a bit of text from RFC 1766 and 3066 (written by a different > author), I would like the co-chairs to evaluate the effect of the new > IETF IPR policy on draft-4646bis, in coordination with the AD if > necessary. As a group, we should be prepared to answer any IPR > questions about this draft that arise during IETF Last Call. > > Because draft-4645bis contains all new text, none carried over from RFC > 4645 or any other RFC, I believe it has no issues of this sort. ... The simplest course of (in)action would be to simply defer all further work on these documents until the IETF sorts out the apparent (unintended) consequences of RFC 5378. However, I believe the contributions resulting in both works-in-progress are adequately covered by section 5.1 of RFC 5378, and the effectively equivalent language of the "NOTE WELL" statements in effect over the entire lifetime of this working group. I'm not aware of any language in the current documents that might have come from 1766 or 3066 that was not also present in RFC 4646, so for our purposes I think we only need consider whether 4646 and 4647 permit derivative works. Both of those works *do* contain appropriate notices, and were developed by this WG in good faith. I'm not a lawyer, but, based on my reading of RFC 5378 as a co-chair I'm reasonably sure that we do not need to take any special action. If there *is* a problem that I've missed, I think the IESG can deal with it (or toss it back to the WG) when we hand them the drafts. So, unless someone has identified a specific problem with a specific bit of text in either of the drafts, I suggest we procede without introducing further delay. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 15 10:21:48 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972C13A69AD; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 836B43A69AD for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.876 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.876 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dkvuXGtElIoy for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from yx-out-2324.google.com (yx-out-2324.google.com [74.125.44.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D51E3A67F7 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by yx-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 8so1130114yxg.49 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender :to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references :x-google-sender-auth; bh=oa9GBBqzvuChpPM5cE+F8FDZIWthaA3MdDgeLSm5ESk=; b=tsV8vTvLClb3RkVLbWcahnWleaYMGERSBd5B68Ax6r1gVuQvFdx9viFPjE2i4EHZO1 vwuaNoRYTOT59HVMPXwc28bH6RKx0yjUCoO7AhGGkxh0lDCT8S+DbO3uLghrqpJI5fNe nvh/P7JRNlHgjuFOpT60npK771SYiCrX/Y434= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:cc:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=Sk8WB9Xp+fwvfwK+gB6b3M+MIljR17yq+dZtXzXatU3+8zePD2/xiv984QcCJ0yo/Q FAP1o67Qd97ZZnbP9BWaNw+NClUvkM6LnZIdv0YjHICaQFc/qFaN5NvdWbcE7lwUtnP9 Fx+66qyr88HutIHIIvYPoE2WbESyewGtcoPqY= Received: by 10.142.240.9 with SMTP id n9mr2909712wfh.1.1229365298190; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:38 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.233.11 with HTTP; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <30b660a20812151021o67c10e9dq9d459f05350e01b5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:21:38 -0800 From: "Mark Davis" To: "Randy Presuhn" In-Reply-To: <003601c95ee0$52c07680$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20081211224832.C04F33A69BD@core3.amsl.com> <87zlj1zn0n.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <87fxktxn7f.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <20081212195050.233A83A6B15@core3.amsl.com> <003601c95ee0$52c07680$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5bcbd326c9631060 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0228835372==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============0228835372== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_42474_869138.1229365298193" ------=_Part_42474_869138.1229365298193 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree. Mark On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:09, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As co-chair... > > > From: "Doug Ewell" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:07 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF > 73Plenary > ... > > Given that draft-4646bis contains significant text from RFC 4646, and > > even a bit of text from RFC 1766 and 3066 (written by a different > > author), I would like the co-chairs to evaluate the effect of the new > > IETF IPR policy on draft-4646bis, in coordination with the AD if > > necessary. As a group, we should be prepared to answer any IPR > > questions about this draft that arise during IETF Last Call. > > > > Because draft-4645bis contains all new text, none carried over from RFC > > 4645 or any other RFC, I believe it has no issues of this sort. > ... > > The simplest course of (in)action would be to simply defer all further > work on these documents until the IETF sorts out the apparent (unintended) > consequences of RFC 5378. > > However, I believe the contributions resulting in both works-in-progress > are adequately covered by section 5.1 of RFC 5378, and the effectively > equivalent language of the "NOTE WELL" statements in effect over the entire > lifetime of this working group. I'm not aware of any language in the > current documents that might have come from 1766 or 3066 that was not also > present in RFC 4646, so for our purposes I think we only need consider > whether 4646 and 4647 permit derivative works. Both of those works > *do* contain appropriate notices, and were developed by this WG in > good faith. > > I'm not a lawyer, but, based on my reading of RFC 5378 as a co-chair > I'm reasonably sure that we do not need to take any special action. > If there *is* a problem that I've missed, I think the IESG can deal > with it (or toss it back to the WG) when we hand them the drafts. > > So, unless someone has identified a specific problem with a specific > bit of text in either of the drafts, I suggest we procede without > introducing further delay. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > ------=_Part_42474_869138.1229365298193 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline I agree.

Mark


On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 10:09, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

As co-chair...

> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary
...
> Given that draft-4646bis contains significant text from RFC 4646, and
> even a bit of text from RFC 1766 and 3066 (written by a different
> author), I would like the co-chairs to evaluate the effect of the new
> IETF IPR policy on draft-4646bis, in coordination with the AD if
> necessary.  As a group, we should be prepared to answer any IPR
> questions about this draft that arise during IETF Last Call.
>
> Because draft-4645bis contains all new text, none carried over from RFC
> 4645 or any other RFC, I believe it has no issues of this sort.
...

The simplest course of (in)action would be to simply defer all further
work on these documents until the IETF sorts out the apparent (unintended)
consequences of RFC 5378.

However, I believe the contributions resulting in both works-in-progress
are adequately covered by section 5.1 of RFC 5378, and the effectively
equivalent language of the "NOTE WELL" statements in effect over the entire
lifetime of this working group.  I'm not aware of any language in the
current documents that might have come from 1766 or 3066 that was not also
present in RFC 4646, so for our purposes I think we only need consider
whether 4646 and 4647 permit derivative works.  Both of those works
*do* contain appropriate notices, and were developed by this WG in
good faith.

I'm not a lawyer, but, based on my reading of RFC 5378 as a co-chair
I'm reasonably sure that we do not need to take any special action.
If there *is* a problem that I've missed, I think the IESG can deal
with it (or toss it back to the WG) when we hand them the drafts.

So, unless someone has identified a specific problem with a specific
bit of text in either of the drafts, I suggest we procede without
introducing further delay.

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------=_Part_42474_869138.1229365298193-- --===============0228835372== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============0228835372==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 15 19:20:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 107B128C0E5; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:20:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2CC28C0E5 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:19:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.405, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x2gGR8ABIpb4 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:19:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.194]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E2728C0E3 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:19:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw1.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id mBG39ROp021526 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:09:47 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 574c_ef998794_cb1e_11dd_b301_001d0969ab06; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:09:22 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:58708) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:01:24 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081216120026.082bc430@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:01:46 +0900 To: "Randy Presuhn" , "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst In-Reply-To: <003601c95ee0$52c07680$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <20081211224832.C04F33A69BD@core3.amsl.com> <87zlj1zn0n.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <87fxktxn7f.fsf@mocca.josefsson.org> <20081212195050.233A83A6B15@core3.amsl.com> <003601c95ee0$52c07680$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org In addition to this, RFC 1766 and 3066, authored by Harald, are covered by his signing a general licence with the IETF Trust (see http://trustee.ietf.org/authorlic.html). Regards, Martin. At 03:09 08/12/16, Randy Presuhn wrote: >Hi - > >As co-chair... > >> From: "Doug Ewell" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 6:07 AM >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary >... >> Given that draft-4646bis contains significant text from RFC 4646, and >> even a bit of text from RFC 1766 and 3066 (written by a different >> author), I would like the co-chairs to evaluate the effect of the new >> IETF IPR policy on draft-4646bis, in coordination with the AD if >> necessary. As a group, we should be prepared to answer any IPR >> questions about this draft that arise during IETF Last Call. >> >> Because draft-4645bis contains all new text, none carried over from RFC >> 4645 or any other RFC, I believe it has no issues of this sort. >... > >The simplest course of (in)action would be to simply defer all further >work on these documents until the IETF sorts out the apparent (unintended) >consequences of RFC 5378. > >However, I believe the contributions resulting in both works-in-progress >are adequately covered by section 5.1 of RFC 5378, and the effectively >equivalent language of the "NOTE WELL" statements in effect over the entire >lifetime of this working group. I'm not aware of any language in the >current documents that might have come from 1766 or 3066 that was not also >present in RFC 4646, so for our purposes I think we only need consider >whether 4646 and 4647 permit derivative works. Both of those works >*do* contain appropriate notices, and were developed by this WG in >good faith. > >I'm not a lawyer, but, based on my reading of RFC 5378 as a co-chair >I'm reasonably sure that we do not need to take any special action. >If there *is* a problem that I've missed, I think the IESG can deal >with it (or toss it back to the WG) when we hand them the drafts. > >So, unless someone has identified a specific problem with a specific >bit of text in either of the drafts, I suggest we procede without >introducing further delay. > >Randy > >_______________________________________________ >Ltru mailing list >Ltru@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 15 20:53:24 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 047713A6986; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:53:24 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B273A6986 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:53:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.054 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.054 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.544, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GP340rWT+5FE for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A3BD83A6967 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 2008 20:53:14 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 28289 invoked from network); 16 Dec 2008 04:53:07 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.177.232.210) by smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.31) with ESMTP; 16 Dec 2008 04:53:06 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:53:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] IPR Questions Raised by Sam Hartman at the IETF 73Plenary X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1pbmRzcHJpbmcgZG90 IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+IEknbSBub3QgYSBsYXd5ZXIsIGJ1dCwgYmFzZWQgb24gbXkgcmVhZGlu ZyBvZiBSRkMgNTM3OCBhcyBhIGNvLWNoYWlyIAo+IEknbSByZWFzb25hYmx5IHN1cmUgdGhhdCB3 ZSBkbyBub3QgbmVlZCB0byB0YWtlIGFueSBzcGVjaWFsIGFjdGlvbi4gSWYgCj4gdGhlcmUgKmlz KiBhIHByb2JsZW0gdGhhdCBJJ3ZlIG1pc3NlZCwgSSB0aGluayB0aGUgSUVTRyBjYW4gZGVhbCB3 aXRoIAo+IGl0IChvciB0b3NzIGl0IGJhY2sgdG8gdGhlIFdHKSB3aGVuIHdlIGhhbmQgdGhlbSB0 aGUgZHJhZnRzLgoKRXhjZWxsZW50LiAgVGhhbmsgeW91LgoKPiBTbywgdW5sZXNzIHNvbWVvbmUg aGFzIGlkZW50aWZpZWQgYSBzcGVjaWZpYyBwcm9ibGVtIHdpdGggYSBzcGVjaWZpYyAKPiBiaXQg b2YgdGV4dCBpbiBlaXRoZXIgb2YgdGhlIGRyYWZ0cywgSSBzdWdnZXN0IHdlIHByb2NlZGUgd2l0 aG91dCAKPiBpbnRyb2R1Y2luZyBmdXJ0aGVyIGRlbGF5LgoKQXQgbm8gdGltZSBkaWQgSSBwcm9w b3NlIGludHJvZHVjaW5nIGFueSBmdXJ0aGVyIGRlbGF5LiAgSSB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIAp0aG91Z2h0 IGJlaW5nIGFibGUgdG8gYWR2aXNlIGF1dGhvcnMgb24gdGhpcyBzb3J0IG9mIHRoaW5nIHdvdWxk IGJlIGEgCm5vcm1hbCByZXNwb25zaWJpbGl0eSBvZiBhIFdHIGNoYWlyLgoKQnV0IHNpbmNlIHlv dSBtZW50aW9uIGRlbGF5OiAgTm93IHRoYXQgQWRkaXNvbiBoYXMgc3VibWl0dGVkIApkcmFmdC00 NjQ2YmlzLTIwLCBhYm91dCA1IGRheXMgYWdvLCB3aGF0IGV4YWN0bHkgYXJlIHdlIHdhaXRpbmcg Zm9yPwoKLS0KRG91ZyBFd2VsbCAgKiAgVGhvcm50b24sIENvbG9yYWRvLCBVU0EgICogIFJGQyA0 NjQ1ICAqICBVVE4gIzE0Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5vcmcKaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5v cmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbApodHRwOi8vd3d3LmFsdmVzdHJhbmQu bm8vbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9pZXRmLWxhbmd1YWdlcyAgy4YKCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Ckx0cnVAaWV0 Zi5vcmcKaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1Cg== From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 08:02:01 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724443A67E9; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:02:01 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E5B53A67AC for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:02:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.644 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.644 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.395, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u-qH6VDdql81 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:01:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3003:2::4:11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F7C53A67E9 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:01:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id E29481C0109; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:01:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA3C1C00EF; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:01:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA4707B0068; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:01:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:01:50 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20081216160150.GA23154@nic.fr> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C43B587@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C43B587@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft 20: final nits before submission X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 01:57:25PM -0800, Phillips, Addison wrote a message of 27 lines which said: > 2. I have run idnits. As a result, the reference to RFC 2434 is > being replaced by its successor RFC 5226 and the term "IETF > Consensus" replaced with the term "IETF Review" in Section 3.7 > (Extensions and the Extensions Registry). Wow, this was reported a long time ago: Subject: Re: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 08:05:51 -0400 Message-ID: <20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> * 3.7 says "Single-character subtags are assigned by IANA using the "IETF Consensus" policy defined by [RFC2434]". The actual reference is now RFC 5226 which dropped the propaganda term "IETF Consensus" in favor of "IETF Review". I believe that it is time to finish with 4646bis, everyone is tired and cannot keep up with all the mail on the list :-) _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 08:04:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 067C33A6A87; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:04:39 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2B743A67AC for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.335, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gipQ48XRaodJ for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3003:2::4:11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7643A695B for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 90C701C0150 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:04:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2CA1C00EF for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:04:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 805E17B00AB for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:04:29 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:04:29 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost> <20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux lenny/sid X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Subject: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 08:05:51AM -0400, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote a message of 77 lines which said: > * 3.1.1 says "Each field is terminated by the newline sequence CRLF. > The text in each field MUST be in Unicode Normalization Form C > (NFC)." We could simplify the definition of the file format by just > asking "The text must be in the form defined by [RFC 5198], section > 2." Otherwise, we would need to add normative references to Unicode > documents and to RFC 3629. Apparently, this editorial change was not incorporated (I just checked -20). Was it lost in the tide of work or is there a disagreement? _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 08:40:14 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 160EF3A696F; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:40:14 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3282C3A696F for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:40:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.097, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RTRtQSpPZHRx for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:40:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FFD53A695B for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:40:08 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,231,1228089600"; d="scan'208";a="158959713" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Dec 2008 16:39:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBGGdsZ6018140; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:39:54 GMT Received: from ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com (10.248.180.20) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (10.248.163.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.311.4; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:39:54 -0800 Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-pub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.180.20]) with mapi; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:38:50 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:39:53 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt Thread-Index: Aclfl/38eo9S/COuT1er1N4KBMEGLAABCaeQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C616D21@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost> <20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org I didn't see this comment previously. I wouldn't oppose referencing RFC 5198, but I think I would have incorporated it with different wording because I think that mentioning form NFC explicitly makes clear what the requirement is. I will track this item for any future draft-21, should it be necessary. Although your proposal would modify the references (thus, without qualification, it's a substantive change), I think that, practically speaking, it's an "editorial" change. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:04 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 08:05:51AM -0400, > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote > a message of 77 lines which said: > > > * 3.1.1 says "Each field is terminated by the newline sequence > CRLF. > > The text in each field MUST be in Unicode Normalization Form C > > (NFC)." We could simplify the definition of the file format by > just > > asking "The text must be in the form defined by [RFC 5198], > section > > 2." Otherwise, we would need to add normative references to > Unicode > > documents and to RFC 3629. > > Apparently, this editorial change was not incorporated (I just > checked > -20). Was it lost in the tide of work or is there a disagreement? > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 10:52:09 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4990A3A6A91; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:52:09 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10103A6A91 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:52:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.528 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.528 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rYzwVRxr+7aD for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:52:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D44F53A6A8F for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:52:04 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,231,1228089600"; d="scan'208";a="105651491" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Dec 2008 18:51:55 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBGIps4L030786 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 18:51:54 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:51:54 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 10:51:51 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt Thread-Index: Aclfl/38eo9S/COuT1er1N4KBMEGLAAFw89g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F936B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost> <20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org It seems that I overlooked three messages on my "todo" tracking list. Two of them were items pointed out by Stephane this morning. At least idnits caught the one. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Stephane Bortzmeyer > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 8:04 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC (Was: WG Last Call for > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-17.txt > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 08:05:51AM -0400, > Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote > a message of 77 lines which said: > > > * 3.1.1 says "Each field is terminated by the newline sequence > CRLF. > > The text in each field MUST be in Unicode Normalization Form C > > (NFC)." We could simplify the definition of the file format by > just > > asking "The text must be in the form defined by [RFC 5198], > section > > 2." Otherwise, we would need to add normative references to > Unicode > > documents and to RFC 3629. > > Apparently, this editorial change was not incorporated (I just > checked > -20). Was it lost in the tide of work or is there a disagreement? > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 11:51:07 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 964EA3A6852; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:51:07 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29AE3A6AB6 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:51:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.121, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TAgpf9sl1DMG for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:51:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C668D3A6800 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:51:05 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=RkKZoIIsQkwWQ64FzkhIBwqTbGvl4a+dgtyEEbHrl8X64KIM8zk4TvgMZ1bLjJvM; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LCfwW-0008FW-BA for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:50:56 -0500 Message-ID: <00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost><20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org><20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F936B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:52:45 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e42dd5a3b12bf0352ccf5a78d8dca9e279350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.88 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - As co-chair... Editors: Please make the repair and submit the updated I-D ASAP. All: If we submit paperwork to the IESG saying that there are known open issues with an I-D we're recommending for consideration for publication, they'll typically bounce it right back to us. This might cause some to consider whether deferring further comment until IETF last call would make things go more quickly. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 12:25:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE3328C186; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:25:26 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 074B228C188 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.685 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.685 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IUCEMBkwXlsz for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:25:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D867228C184 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:25:12 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,232,1228089600"; d="scan'208";a="159171385" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Dec 2008 20:24:59 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBGKOwgr005635 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:24:58 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:24:57 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:24:55 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC Thread-Index: Aclft6GWEcD25RNwQTWrESbX7RGyfwAA25fw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F9512@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost><20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org><20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F936B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org (editor hat OFF) Alright... let me rephrase this: I oppose making this change. We already have references to Unicode in place. Referencing RFC 5198 is a pointless digression. Moreover, the normalization form requirement in that RFC is merely a recommendation (SHOULD) whereas our document makes it a requirement (MUST). I think referencing Net-Unicode here is, at best, a pointless editorial change and I oppose it as a pointless dereferencing of the actual standard(s). (editor hat ON) No other pending edits exist that impact the text. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 11:53 AM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC > > Hi - > > As co-chair... > > Editors: Please make the repair and submit the updated I-D ASAP. > > All: If we submit paperwork to the IESG saying that there are known > open issues with an I-D we're recommending for consideration > for publication, they'll typically bounce it right back to us. > This might > cause some to consider whether deferring further comment until > IETF last call would make things go more quickly. > > Randy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 12:53:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7E5A3A6868; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:53:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B473A6868 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:53:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.758 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.758 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.841, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eFzwCMJUBwnD for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:53:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1FA3A6856 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:53:29 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ekYG27O/xb4eFvrVh6UFtqu+CzfSkJBosKKAlY0y7E3QWXbNzRHAVfQactA3h2eZ; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LCguu-00007i-J5 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:53:20 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c95fc0$979bcee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost><20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org><20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F936B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F9512@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 12:55:12 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e43a1231eed97dcb7e98473be4bc462435350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.88 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:24 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC ... > I oppose making this change. We already have references > to Unicode in place. Referencing RFC 5198 is a pointless > digression. Moreover, the normalization form requirement > in that RFC is merely a recommendation (SHOULD) whereas > our document makes it a requirement (MUST). I think > referencing Net-Unicode here is, at best, a pointless > editorial change and I oppose it as a pointless > dereferencing of the actual standard(s). ... While, as a technical contributor I really don't care much about this issue here, I also think the existing "MUST" is overkill. But I don't want to re-open that. As co-chair: We do have a normative requirement for NFC spelled out in in the text. The context of section 3.1.1 in the draft leads the reader to assume that NFC would be defined in [Unicode], since that's the nearest preceding reference, and the term is introduced with the word "Unicode". If that document provides a specification of normalization form C, we're done. If that document does not do so, then we need to add a reference here that does. The question is whether "Unicode Standard Annex #15: Unicode Normalization Forms" is or is not part of [Unicode]. If it is, we're done. If it isn't, we need to add the reference. As I see it, referencing RFC 5198 would only make sense as an indirect reference to "Unicode Standard Annex #15: Unicode Normalization Forms". This working group has not gone through the process of figuring how, for example, RFC 5198 section 2's rules would fit in with the registry format we define. This is *not* the time for that exercise, and so I'd really prefer to exlude that option from the discussion, in the interest of finishing this thing. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 13:06:39 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 175D63A69A9; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:39 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3700528C16C for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 41KTrUFShirj for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B4663A686B for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:37 -0800 (PST) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.36,232,1228089600"; d="scan'208";a="182605314" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Dec 2008 21:06:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id mBGL6Qxj027264 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:06:26 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.29]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:26 -0800 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:06:24 -0800 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC Thread-Index: AclfwFhKB4tB/lJbQnaQa/wmQd7nywAAa9XQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F95A6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost><20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org><20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F936B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F9512@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001701c95fc0$979bcee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001701c95fc0$979bcee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org UAX#15 is a part of the Unicode Standard (that's what it means to be an Annex) and it's published in the Unicode book proper. Addison Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:55 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC > > Hi - > > > From: "Phillips, Addison" > > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:24 PM > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC > ... > > I oppose making this change. We already have references > > to Unicode in place. Referencing RFC 5198 is a pointless > > digression. Moreover, the normalization form requirement > > in that RFC is merely a recommendation (SHOULD) whereas > > our document makes it a requirement (MUST). I think > > referencing Net-Unicode here is, at best, a pointless > > editorial change and I oppose it as a pointless > > dereferencing of the actual standard(s). > ... > > While, as a technical contributor I really don't care much about > this issue here, I also think the existing "MUST" is overkill. > But I don't want to re-open that. > > > As co-chair: > > We do have a normative requirement for NFC spelled out in > in the text. The context of section 3.1.1 in the draft > leads the reader to assume that NFC would be defined > in [Unicode], since that's the nearest preceding reference, > and the term is introduced with the word "Unicode". > > If that document provides a specification of > normalization form C, we're done. If that document does > not do so, then we need to add a reference here that does. > > The question is whether "Unicode Standard Annex #15: > Unicode Normalization Forms" is or is not part of > [Unicode]. If it is, we're done. If it isn't, we > need to add the reference. > > As I see it, referencing RFC 5198 would only make sense > as an indirect reference to "Unicode Standard Annex #15: > Unicode Normalization Forms". This working group has not > gone through the process of figuring how, for example, > RFC 5198 section 2's rules would fit in with the registry > format we define. This is *not* the time for that > exercise, and so I'd really prefer to exlude that option > from the discussion, in the interest of finishing this thing. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 13:09:02 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407EF3A69A9; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:02 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840BE28C189 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ozEZaqYlBckb for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65A0028C16C for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LCh9w-0006Vi-RH; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:08:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:08:52 -0500 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20081216210852.GC32169@mercury.ccil.org> References: <00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F9512@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001701c95fc0$979bcee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001701c95fc0$979bcee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Randy Presuhn scripsit: > The question is whether "Unicode Standard Annex #15: > Unicode Normalization Forms" is or is not part of > [Unicode]. If it is, we're done. If it isn't, we > need to add the reference. Every Unicode Standard Annex is part of Unicode. See http://www.unicode.org/reports/about-reports.html , which says: A Unicode Standard Annex (UAX) forms an integral part of the Unicode Standard, but is published online as a separate document. The Unicode Standard may require conformance to normative content in a Unicode Standard Annex, if so specified in the Conformance chapter of that version of the Unicode Standard. The version number of a UAX document corresponds to the version of the Unicode Standard of which it forms a part. So conformance to Unicode includes conformance to UAX 15. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Please leave your values Check your assumptions. In fact, at the front desk. check your assumptions at the door. --sign in Paris hotel --Cordelia Vorkosigan _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Tue Dec 16 13:09:51 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561F628C16C; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:51 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246FA28C16C for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.701, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aEsk5YWecKYY for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6913A686B for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:09:49 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ihustKxm1HVpiFaNTtuQ09zTjGvtWmZ+U++faFkrfVFWDiRcNNLan2bzocZLoF/k; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.88] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LChAi-0006Qg-70 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:09:40 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c95fc2$dd22a860$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <6.0.0.20.2.20080920155501.05d2bed8@localhost><20080924120551.GA13415@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org><20081216160429.GA23583@nic.fr><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F936B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><00bb01c95fb7$de2e4d00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F9512@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <001701c95fc0$979bcee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA017C6F95A6@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:11:26 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e499c02ab9a49d59c107cae5f581bee377350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.88 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Randy Presuhn" ; > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 1:06 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Standard for Unicode NFC > > UAX#15 is a part of the Unicode Standard (that's what it > means to be an Annex) and it's published in the Unicode book proper. ... That's good enough for me. It was unclear, since it has been referenced separately elsewhere. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 17 17:45:26 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9153A3A694E; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:45:26 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4873A694D for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:45:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.442 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.442 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.668, BAYES_50=0.001, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aoLCnyc+tZKY for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:45:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF6D3A68D7 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:45:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.253.23]) by scmailgw2.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id mBI1jEQv021363 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:45:15 +0900 (JST) Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse3.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0ccc_83de8cb0_cca5_11dd_a493_001d0969ab06; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:45:14 +0900 Received: from Tanzawa.it.aoyama.ac.jp ([133.2.210.1]:44843) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:37:17 +0900 Message-Id: <6.0.0.20.2.20081218104005.034c2558@localhost> X-Sender: duerst@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6J Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:44:30 +0900 To: "LTRU Working Group" From: Martin Duerst Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] Moving ahead X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Dear LTRU WG, I plan to hand over our drafts to the AD and the IESG around December 26th. If you have any really really important and urgent issue that you think needs to be fixed before that, please say so on the list *before* December 25th. If you happen to find something that is minor or editorial, please, please keep it to yourself until asked for explicitly at a later date. In other words, I sincerely hope that this is the LAST WG last call on these two documents :-). Regards, Martin. #-#-# Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 17 19:56:10 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 712843A695F; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:56:10 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35043A695F for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:56:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.369 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.369 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.230, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NPeAfvzBAFZm for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:56:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAFC73A695C for ; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:56:07 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=JvuJ2Je5VNgz853WsrOXMgvb7IS2cUj0dpe2bZQbq98qr2EVXzREHDMV5rm2M2kx; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.131] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LD9zU-0002dl-2Z for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:56:00 -0500 Message-ID: <00ad01c960c4$cf6180e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:57:55 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e40dbf64472dd6c882789aabd8cd0c9002350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.131 Subject: [Ltru] RFC 5378 license forms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - RFC 5378 says: a. "Contribution": any submission to the IETF intended by the Contributor for publication as all or part of an Internet-Draft or RFC (except for RFC Editor Contributions described in Section 4 below) and any statement made within the context of an IETF activity. Such statements include oral statements in IETF sessions as well as written and electronic communications, made at any time or place, that are addressed to: o the IETF plenary session, o any IETF working group or portion thereof, o any Birds of a Feather (BOF) session, o the IESG, or any member thereof on behalf of the IESG, o the IAB, or any member thereof on behalf of the IAB, o any IETF mailing list, including the IETF list itself, any working group or design team list, or any other list functioning under IETF auspices, o the RFC Editor or the Internet-Drafts function (except for RFC Editor Contributions, as described in Section 4 below). Statements made outside of an IETF session, mailing list, or other function, that are clearly not intended to be input to an IETF activity, group, or function are not IETF Contributions in the context of this document. b. "Contributor": an individual submitting a Contribution. If you have been by this definition a contributor to the work of the ltru WG, please print, fill out, and sign the form http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/Contributor_Non-Exclusive_License_RFC5378.pdf If your employment agreement(s) in effect during this time transferred your copyrights to your employer, please have them fill it out, too. When I find out where the signed forms should be sent, I'll forward that information. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Dec 17 20:07:15 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E35E3A6B39; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:07:15 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303833A68AB; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:07:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.386 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.386 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.799, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cNNOTnuK4j8n; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:07:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 476BC3A67DB; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:07:13 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Ouhmamxs/nhAOvQbTWURvxIMyf3kQKdxXcDPSbCY0U5n+avNnJwuA/jwxdRyOgdW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.131] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LDAAD-0004BZ-Nx; Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:07:05 -0500 Message-ID: <00bd01c960c6$5c12d920$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: , "Disman" , "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:09:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4ed438c4e80bb9ba337cc6cc5fbf5e456350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.131 Subject: Re: [Ltru] RFC 5378 license forms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Signed http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/Contributor_Non-Exclusive_License_RFC5378.pdf forms should go to IETF Trust 1775 Wiehle Ave Reston, VA 201905108 c/o IETF Administrative Director Facsimile: 703.326.9881 Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Dec 18 11:04:54 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 159CB28C148; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:04:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EBA28C148 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:04:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.479 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.479 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.819, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19umjCAZ4X9G for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:04:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s14.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s14.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.89]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEF728C16A for ; Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:04:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W3 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s14.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:04:40 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:04:39 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Dec 2008 19:04:40.0454 (UTC) FILETIME=[7A9C5A60:01C96143] Subject: [Ltru] =?windows-1256?q?_Re=3A__Request_for_clarification_=28Was?= =?windows-1256?q?=3A_requiring_full_prefixes=29_=28I_made_a_minor_correct?= =?windows-1256?q?ion_to_my_previous_post=29=FE?= X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1821457233==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1821457233== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_f279400a-5099-404f-9c7a-6251f6555514_" --_f279400a-5099-404f-9c7a-6251f6555514_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi. I don't think I have any changes that cannot wait till last call unless anyone thinks a question about the use of a deprecated subtag as an example is more than a minor nit/editorial question (I'm not sure it is). Thanks. --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com From: "Randy Presuhn" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:03:06 -0800 > Hi -> We'll be handing the draft to our AD real soon now,> so if you still have a problem with it, I suggest you take up the> issue during IETF last call.> Randy From: Martin Duerst Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:44:30 +0900 > If you have any really really important and> urgent issue that you think needs to be fixed before that,> please say so on the list *before* December 25th.> If you happen to find something that is minor or editorial,> please, please keep it to yourself until asked for explicitly> at a later date. Thanks, Randy, probably all the changes I have can wait till the ietf last call. However I am not 100% sure whether a question about examples citing the subtags 'mo' and 'ro' (as languages) is minor or not; I think it is as both these subtags are are still in the registry, albeit one is deprecated.(So, if you see anything urgent below that should be addressed sooner, feel free to do so; otherwise I'll assume then that the following issues --from the draft at: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txtcan be saved for the ietf 'last call' or for draft 21??:* In section 4.1, paragraph 6, item 4, example 1should not "Alsatian" be included in the list of names for "gsw" ??* Also section 4.1.1, last paragraph, last sentence--the example giving Romanian and Moldavian as languages that do not share a macrolanguage--should not another example [such as 'pes' and 'prs'] be chosen? [At least 'pes' and 'prs' are still tagged separately and do not share a macrolanguage as of this date]: "For example, Romanian ('ro') and Moldavian ('mo') do not share a macrolanguage, but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage." {COMMENT: I prefer the following EXAMPLE instead of the above:} > For example, Western Farsi ('pes') and Dari ('prs') do not share a macrolanguage, but are far more closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') , which do share a macrolanguage." [ However, as I noted, 'mo' is still in the language subtag registry except that its preferred value is now 'ro' ; so maybe this second change is not needed; and the first change I proposed is really a 'minor nit';sorry I did not notice these sooner The draft http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt has ballooned a bit since last spring & costs a bit to print . . .] ) --C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com --_f279400a-5099-404f-9c7a-6251f6555514_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1256" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi.
 
I don't think I have any changes that cannot wait till last call unless anyone thinks a question about  the use of a deprecated subtag as an example is more than a minor nit/editorial question (I'm not sure it is).
 
Thanks.
 
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:03:06 -0800
 
> Hi -

> We'll be handing the draft to our AD real soon now,
> so if you still have a problem with it, I suggest you take up the
> issue during IETF last call.
> Randy
 
From: Martin Duerst <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:44:30 +0900

> If you have any really really important and
> urgent issue that you think needs to be fixed before that,
> please say so on the list *before* December 25th.

> If you happen to find something that is minor or editorial,
> please, please keep it to yourself until asked for explicitly
> at a later date.

Thanks, Randy, probably all the changes I have can wait till the ietf last call.  
 
However I am not 100% sure whether a question about examples citing the subtags 'mo' and 'ro' (as languages) is minor or not; I think it is as both these subtags are are still in the registry, albeit one is deprecated.

(So, if you see anything urgent below that should be addressed sooner, feel free to do so; otherwise I'll assume then that the following issues --from the draft at:
 
 http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt
can be saved for the ietf 'last call' or for draft 21??:

* In section 4.1, paragraph 6, item 4, example 1
should not "Alsatian"  be included in the list of names for "gsw" ??
* Also section 4.1.1, last paragraph, last sentence--the example giving Romanian and Moldavian as languages that do not share a macrolanguage--should not another example [such as 'pes' and 'prs'] be chosen?  [At least 'pes' and 'pr s' are still tagged separately and do not share a macrolanguage as of this date]:
   "For example, Romanian ('ro') and
   Moldavian ('mo') do not share a macrolanguage, but are far more
   closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') ,
   which do share a macrolanguage."

{COMMENT:  I prefer the following EXAMPLE instead of the above:} 
> For example, Western Farsi ('pes') and
   Dari ('prs') do not share a macrolanguage, but are far more
   closely related to each other than Cantonese ('yue') and Wu ('wuu') ,
   which do share a macrolanguage."
 
[ However, as I noted, 'mo' is still in the language subtag registry except that its preferred value is now 'ro' ;  so maybe this second change is not needed; and the first change I proposed is really a 'minor nit';
sorry I did not notice these sooner  The draft http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-20.txt
 has ballooned a bit since last spring & costs a bit to print . . .] )
 
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com



--_f279400a-5099-404f-9c7a-6251f6555514_-- --===============1821457233== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --===============1821457233==-- From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 19 08:57:31 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3CB3A6A26; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:57:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61673A6A26 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.296 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.296 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.303, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wNfUke+Or9Gx for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134E23A695B for ; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:57:30 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=hLs/IXjTK1gHx9vOyI6/PHkVmYOe3BwBLca/ajP8JZO6aRnOaS8e4SL3CyQJxE9E; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [69.3.26.197] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LDifC-0000Sg-2m for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:57:22 -0500 Message-ID: <004001c961fb$23a262a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <00ad01c960c4$cf6180e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:59:20 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4b3ad20ba492f9a648cf71316a9d8ecbe350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 69.3.26.197 Subject: Re: [Ltru] RFC 5378 license forms X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - For those who have been spared the rather, um, extensive discussion of RFC 5378 on the ietf@ietf.org list... There are some updates (bug fixes) planned for http://trustee.ietf.org/docs/Contributor_Non-Exclusive_License_RFC5378.pdf so I suggest deferring signing it for a few days. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Dec 19 16:27:49 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A4E3A6A9A; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:27:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FEB3A6948; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:27:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.047 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.047 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.063, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YAPEBHDzcQzr; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9DC3A677E; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:27:47 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ZzzjbrRjI6qFYI4ha6obi/lF3G+AMZke16HTItO2DP6B2oEQYN4KxYr5S30xwHk+; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.204] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LDpgx-00005O-4T; Fri, 19 Dec 2008 19:27:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000601c9623a$0bfc9e60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" , "Disman" , Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 16:29:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88858bc2ddbf51b90e4741c7c3c8ee7d21b705d78c7f81acc54350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.204 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: RFC 5378 Contributor License Form X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Forwarded from ietf@ietf.org . Randy > From: "Ray Pelletier" > To: "IETF Discussion" > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 10:35 AM > Subject: RFC 5378 Contributor License Form > > All > > The trustees are aware of the problems with respect to the RFC 5378 > implementation and possible consequences with respect to the license. > Pending a further analysis, and possible modification to the license, > we have taken the current license off-line. > > You may also expect a proposal for a temporary workaround to the > problems identified by the implementation of RFC 5378. That proposal > is currently reviewed by the trust and will be posted as an Internet > Draft soon. > > Ray Pelletier > IAD/Trustee _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Mon Dec 22 23:54:40 2008 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1FBE3A6AC5; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:54:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908C33A6AC8 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:54:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.601, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1CrwtYe2WNER for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:54:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40613A689F for ; Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:54:38 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=dKjkpLDshfbXdzgCbSV5zrr/TrIDGnQTDyuLWFWKDMjxS7UqPsNcJqQyRf0Hkjee; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.34.193] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LF261-000398-UH for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 23 Dec 2008 02:54:30 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01c964d3$f6b67700$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:56:28 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8886924630f8852f173947769ac4c2a6d959329daf98f873307350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.34.193 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: 74th IETF - Working Groups/BOF Scheduling X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - > From: "IETF Secretariat" > To: "Working Group Chairs" > Cc: ; > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 6:49 PM > Subject: 74th IETF - Working Groups/BOF Scheduling > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > 74th IETF San Francisco, CA, USA > Meeting Dates: March 22-27, 2009 > Host: Juniper > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF meetings start Monday morning and run through Friday mid-afternoon > (15:15). > > We are accepting scheduling requests for all Working Groups and BOFs > starting. The milestones and deadlines for scheduling-related activities > are as follows: > > NOTE: cutoff dates are subject to change. > > January 19, Monday - Cutoff date for requests to schedule Working Group > meetings and for preliminary BOF proposals to ADs at 17:00 PST (01:00 > Tuesday, January 20 UTC/GMT). ... There are currently no plans for the ltru WG to meet at the 74th IETF. If you think there are good reasons for us to request a meeting slot there, please post them to this mailing list for discussion. Randy ltru co-chair _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru