From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Fri Jan 9 16:30:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7706128C172; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:30:40 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2FBB28C130; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:30:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tLQf3ItsYfNG; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC91C3A6767; Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:30:37 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=akH8GhjMpgI7uFDIuo0WxyyQEX7KCf/zZl3cX6OLwTubgPJqzfc+BaaDOI8YKmO3; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.165.5.216] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LLRk7-0005qQ-Ro; Fri, 09 Jan 2009 19:30:24 -0500 Message-ID: <001701c972bb$07177b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "Disman" , , "LTRU Working Group" References: <20090108203120.GC29175@isi.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:33:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8886924630f8852f173508c2e6a4479aa42046374945d92b3f8350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.165.5.216 Subject: [Ltru] Fwd: RFC Errata Update for Working Group Chairs X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Updated information on RFC errata .... Randy =========================================== From: RFC Editor Date: Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 12:31 PM Subject: RFC Errata Update for Working Group Chairs To: wgchairs@ietf.org Cc: RFC Editor WG chairs, We have made some updates to the RFC errata system and would like to inform you of the new features and explain how these features may impact your working group. 1) We'd like to bring your attention to the improved search for RFC errata on http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata.php. You can search by WG acronym and other information. Please contact your Area Director if you find errata reports that need correction. For example, the Type (Editorial/Technical) may be incorrect. Area Directors can log in to verify errata in RFCs produced by the IETF stream, so if you want to to recommend that a report be Verified/Rejected/Held, then please let the relevant AD know. (For the meanings of Status and Type for RFC errata, please see http://www.rfc-editor.org/status_type_desc.html.) 2) Previously, the initial report message was sent to the authors of the RFC and the relevant WG chairs and ADs when the RFC was a product of a WG. The IESG has suggested that the WG mailing list be CC'ed on these messages, and we have implemented this feature. For example, grow@ietf.org would now be CC'ed on the message below. The idea is to notify the WG of the new report and potentially initiate a discussion of the validity of the report among those who are familiar with the content. This will allow the verifier to update the erratum so that its Status and Notes capture the conclusion of any discussion. Please distribute this information to your working groups as you see fit, and let us know if you have any comments or concerns. Thank you. RFC Editor _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jan 14 11:54:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A09228C1F6; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:54:09 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229E028C1BB; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:54:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vNA57FL7lXge; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:54:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDD2B3A6A33; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:54:06 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=G7RZZdGRt0UKMTcPzZ57zchw5j0T6LHQDDxwbAuoIqg3wfv1vOJypFQmf8kZFiby; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.204.246] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LNBoF-0007dJ-Mr; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:53:52 -0500 Message-ID: <007d01c97682$424ae380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:56:56 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8886924630f8852f1733045f6fe2ee56ae74d8a155e025816f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.204.246 Cc: agentx@ietf.org, Disman Subject: [Ltru] Fw: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your review and comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - Forwarded or your information. If you'd like to respond or discuss, please do so on the ietf@ietf.org list. Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Russ Housley" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 8:00 AM > Subject: Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your review and comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem > > WG Chairs: > > Please make sure that your WG, and especially your document authors, > are aware of this situation. Please follow the discussion on the > IETF Discussion list, and keep the WG informed about the way forward > as it develops. > > Thanks, > Russ > > > >From: "Ed Juskevicius" > >To: "'IETF Discussion'" , , > > , , , > > > >Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:43:50 -0500 > >Cc: 'Trustees' > >Subject: [Trustees] ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your review and > > comments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem > > > >The purpose of this message is twofold: > > > >1) To summarize the issues that some members of our community > > have experienced since the publication of RFC 5378 in November 2008, > > and > >2) To invite community review and discussion on a potential work-around > > being considered by the IETF Trustees. > > > >Some I-D authors are having difficulty implementing RFC 5378. An > >example of the difficulty is as follows: > > > > - an author wants to include pre-5378 content in a new submission > > or contribution to the IETF, but > > - s/he is not certain that all of the author(s) of the earlier > > material have agreed to license it to the IETF Trust according > > to RFC 5378. > > > >If an I-D author includes pre-5378 material in a new document, then s/he > >must represent or warrant that all of the authors who created the > >pre-5378 material have granted rights for that material to the IETF Trust. > >If s/he cannot make this assertion, then s/he has a problem. > > > >This situation has halted the progression of some Internet-Drafts and > >interrupted the publication of some RFCs. The Trustees of the IETF Trust > >are investigating ways to implement a temporary work-around so that IETF > >work can continue to progress. A permanent solution to this "pre-5378 > >problem" may require an update to RFC 5378, for example new work by the > >community to create a 5378-bis document. > > > >The remainder of this message provides an outline of the temporary work- > >around being considered by the Trustees. > > > >RFC 5378 sections 1.j and 5.3.c provide the IETF Trust with the > >authority to develop legend text for authors to use in situations where > >they wish to limit the granting of rights to modify and prepare > >derivatives of the documents they submit. The Trustees used this > >authority in 2008 to develop and adopt the current "Legal Provisions > >Relating to IETF Documents" which are posted at: > >http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info/. > > > >The Trustees are now considering the creation of optional new legend text > >which could be used by authors experiencing the "pre-5378 problem". > > > >The new legend text, if implemented, would do the following: > > > > a. Provide Authors and Contributors with a way to identify (to the > > IETF Trust) that their contributions contain material from pre-5378 > > documents for which RFC 5378 rights to modify the material outside > > the IETF standards process may not have been granted, and > > > > b. Provide the IETF Trust and the community with a clear indication > > of every document containing pre-5378 content and having the > > "pre-5378 problem". > > > >So, how could the creation and use of some new legend text help people > >work-around the pre-5378 problem? > > > >The proposed answer is as follows: > > > > 1. Anyone having a contribution with the "pre-5378" problem should add > > new legend text to the contribution, to clearly flag that it includes > > pre-5378 material for which all of the rights needed under RFC 5378 > > may not have been granted, and > > > > 2. The IETF Trust will consider authors and contributors (with the > > pre-5378 problem) to have met their RFC 5378 obligations if the > > new legend text appears on their documents, and > > > > 3. Authors and contributors should only resort to adding the new > > legend text to their documents (per #1) if they cannot develop > > certainty that all of the author(s) of pre-5378 material in > > their documents have agreed to license the pre-5378 content to > > the IETF Trust according to RFC 5378. > > > >The proposed wording for the new legend text is now available for your > >review and comments in section 6.c.iii of a draft revision to the > >IETF Trust's "Legal Provisions Relating to IETF Documents" located at > >http://trustee.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html. > > > >Please note that the above document also contains new text in section 5.c > >dealing with "License Limitations". > > > >If your review and feedback on this proposed work-around is positive, > >then the new text may be adopted by the Trustees in early February 2009, > >and then be published as an official revision to the Legal Provisions > >document. If so adopted, Internet-Drafts with pre-5378 material may > >advance within the Internet standards process and get published as RFCs > >where otherwise qualified to do so. Unless covered by sections 6.c.i or > >6.c.ii, authors of documents in which there is no pre-5378 > >material must provide a RFC 5378 license with no limitation on > >modifications outside the IETF standards process. > > > >The IETF Trust will not grant the right to modify or prepare derivative > >works of any specific RFC or other IETF Contribution outside the IETF > >standards process until RFC 5378 rights pertaining to that document have > >been obtained from all authors and after compliance by the IETF Trust > >with RFC 5377. The Trustees will establish one or more mechanisms by > >which authors of pre-5378 documents may grant RFC 5378 rights. > > > >The Trustees hereby invite your review, comments and suggestions on this > >proposed work-around to the "pre-5378 problem". The period for this review > >is 30 days. Microsoft WORD and PDF versions of the proposed revisions are > >attached to this message. Copies are also available on the IETF Trust > >website under the heading "DRAFT Policy and Procedures Being Developed" at: > >http://trustee.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html > > > >All feedback submitted before the end of February 7th will be considered by > >the Trustees. A decision on whether to move forward with this proposal will > >be made and communicated to you before the end of February 15th. > > > >Please give this your attention. > > > >Regards and Happy New Year ! > > > >Ed Juskevicius, on behalf of the IETF Trustees > >edj.etc@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jan 14 16:45:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7C1E3A6AA8; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F8683A6A93; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:45:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.05 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.05 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.549, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 88LaItV9IvSF; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:45:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9473A6963; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:45:20 -0800 (PST) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=OO6Zmh4ER7QZ4XVPLKSXrkSIaevqx7Bm4E8nfuUCDLXCQpN2xVE3/Tfmkvo8oeYc; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.43] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1LNGM5-0004XO-JH; Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:45:05 -0500 Message-ID: <005701c976aa$f19bb080$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <007d01c97682$424ae380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:48:11 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d8886924630f8852f1733c1ad1aef096d70b21be0e6f8bc5fe25350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.43 Cc: agentx@ietf.org, Disman Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your review andcomments on a proposed Work-Around to the Pre-5378 Problem X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Hi - In case you haven't been following the discussion, here's a helpful distillation by Marshall Eubanks: The WG Chairs have been asked to make their WG aware of this issue. This is a complicated subject, but the executive summary is that if you have an Internet-draft that quotes substantially from one or more older RFCs (ones with a publication date pre-November 11, 2008), and you did not write this earlier work yourself (or you wrote it while with another company), you need to be aware of the likely difficulty of obtaining RFC5378 clearances for your new work, and also to be aware that a work-around is on the way. The work-around should be in place to allow submissions to the San Francisco IETF well before the normal deadlines. Again, please direct any followup discussion to ietf@ietf.org Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Thu Jan 22 23:46:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03463A6A48; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:46:49 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386C53A6A48 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:46:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.128 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.128 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.121, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iEyjSydOZwQt for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5270C3A6820 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:46:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 685471C016C; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:41:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from relay2.nic.fr (relay2.nic.fr [192.134.4.163]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634EF1C0140; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:41:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577347B00C2; Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:41:27 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:41:27 +0100 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin Duerst Message-ID: <20090123074127.GA15349@nic.fr> References: <6.0.0.20.2.20081218104005.034c2558@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.20.2.20081218104005.034c2558@localhost> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Moving ahead X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:44:30AM +0900, Martin Duerst wrote a message of 26 lines which said: > I plan to hand over our drafts to the AD and the IESG around > December 26th. Was it done? I do not find it at _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From ltru-bounces@ietf.org Sat Jan 24 09:14:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru-archive@megatron.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-ltru-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3711428C308; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:14:04 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912FB28C308 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:14:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.340, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vR0hqn5eZvTp for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from blu0-omc3-s26.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s26.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.101]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A43328C153 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:14:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from BLU109-W17 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s26.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:13:44 -0800 Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [198.252.156.11] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:13:44 -0500 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jan 2009 17:13:44.0444 (UTC) FILETIME=[1C9A93C0:01C97E47] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Hand-off to AD X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1169449755==" Sender: ltru-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: ltru-bounces@ietf.org --===============1169449755== Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_65f0ef06-164c-486e-b844-7fb50a3575fd_" --_65f0ef06-164c-486e-b844-7fb50a3575fd_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi. I am wondering how much longer it will be before the ietf last call for RFC= 4646--will it be delayed because the draft's arrival at the IESG has been = delayed by RFC5378 clearances requirements? (It does have to go through an= ietf last call still=2C right?) =20 Thanks. (I don't mean to sound impatient=3B just curious) =20 --C. E. Whitehead =20 From: "Doug Ewell" =20 To: "LTRU Working Group" =20 Date: Wed=2C 3 Dec 2008 19:36:25 -0700=20 >>we plan to hand these to our AD in the next few days for consideration by= the IESG for publication as RFCs=2C replacing the current RFC 4645 and RFC= 4646. > I'm delighted to see this day finally come. >>If you spot a "show-stopper" technical problem in either of these=2C don'= t hesitate to post it to this list. For any other issues=2C I strongly sugg= est holding them for the IETF last call that will (I hope) soon follow.=20 > I have a few=2C very minor editorial fixes=2C which I am more than=20 > happy to hold onto until IETF Last Call. When is that going to be? Does a= nyone have any idea at this point? > Doug Ewell * Thornton=2C Colorado=2C USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 Best=2C C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com= --_65f0ef06-164c-486e-b844-7fb50a3575fd_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi.

I am wondering how much longer it will be before the ietf last call for= RFC 4646--will it be delayed because the draft's arrival at the IESG has b= een delayed by RFC5378 clearances requirements? =3B (It does have to go= through an ietf last call still=2C right?)
 =3B
Thanks. =3B (I don't mean to sound impatient=3B just curious)
 =3B
--C. E. Whitehead

 =3B

From: "Doug Ewell" <=3Bdoug at ewellic.org>=3B
To: "LTRU Working Group" <=3Bltru at ietf.org>=3B
Date: Wed=2C 3 Dec 2008 19:36:25 -0700 =3B
>=3B>=3Bwe plan to hand these to our AD in the next few da= ys for consideration by the IESG for publication as RFCs=2C replac= ing the current RFC 4645 and RFC 4646. 
>=3B I'm delighted to see this day finally come.

>=3B>=3BIf you spot a "show-stopper" technical problem in either of=
 these=2C don't hesitate to post it to this list. For any other is=
sues=2C I strongly suggest holding them for the IETF last call tha=
t will (I hope) soon follow. 

>=3B I have a few=2C very minor editorial fixes=2C which I am more th=
an 

>=3B happy to hold onto until IETF Last Call. 
When is that going to be? Does any=
one have any idea at this point?
>=3B Doug Ewell  *  Thornton=2C Colorado=2C USA  *  RFC 4645  *  U=
TN #14

 =3B
<=
FONT face=3DArial>Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

=

--_65f0ef06-164c-486e-b844-7fb50a3575fd_--

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_______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sun Jan 25 01:40:03 2009
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Subject: [Ltru] Fwd: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your comments on revisedproposed legend text to work-around the Pre-5378 Problem
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[FYI, just to show everybody that this issue that is blocking us
moving to last call is hopefully moving towards a resolution soon.]

>From: "Ed Juskevicius" 

>Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: The IETF Trustees invite your comments on 
>revisedproposed legend text to work-around the Pre-5378 Problem
>Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:29:33 -0500

>List-Id: IETF-Discussion 

>This message is in follow-up to the IETF Trustees' request for community
>review (announced on January 6, 2009) on some new legend text intended to
>help authors work around the "pre-5378 problem".  
>
>Please recall that some I-D authors have experienced difficulty implementing
>RFC5378 since it was published on November 10, 2008.  An example of the
>difficulty is summarized below:
>  - an author wants to include pre-5378 content in a new submission
>    or contribution to the IETF, but
>  - the author is not able to assert that every author of the pre-5378
>    content has agreed (or would agree) to license the earlier material
>    for use outside of the IETF Standards Process
>
>As a result of the above situation, many authors have reported they can not
>submit or progress new contributions, because the legend text authorized by
>the Trustees in November 2008 had no provisions for dealing with this
>"pre-5378" problem. 
>
>The Trustees met with legal counsel on January 22nd to discuss the comments
>and suggestions which you have provided since January 6th.  We have received
>many excellent suggestions for ways to clarify and improve the draft legend
>text, and we are grateful for this.  
>
>Based on the feedback received to date, the Trustees are now proposing a few
>changes to the draft legend text. 
>
>The 'old' legend text (as posted for community review on 2009-01-06) was:
>
>> 6. Text To Be Included in IETF Documents
>> c. Derivative Works and Publication Limitations
>> iii.  If a Contribution includes Pre-5378 Material and the Contributor
>> does not wish to allow modifications of such Pre-5378 Material to be
>> made outside the IETF Standards Process:
>>
>> This document contains material from IETF Documents or IETF Contributions
>> published before November 10, 2008 and, to the Contributor's knowledge,
>> the person(s) controlling the copyright in such material have not granted
>> the IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside
>> the IETF Standards Process.  Without obtaining an adequate license from
>> the person(s) controlling the copyright, this document may not be modified
>> outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it may not be
>> created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format it for
>> publication as an RFC and to translate it into languages other than
>> English.
>
>The updated proposed legend text based on the discussion to date is as
>follows: 
>
>This document may contain material from IETF Documents or IETF Contributions
>published or made publicly available before November 10, 2008. The person(s)
>controlling the copyright in some of this material may not have granted the
>IETF Trust the right to allow modifications of such material outside the
>IETF Standards Process. Without obtaining an adequate license from the
>person(s) controlling the copyright in such materials, this document may not
>be modified outside the IETF Standards Process, and derivative works of it
>may not be created outside the IETF Standards Process, except to format it
>for publication as an RFC and to translate it into languages other than
>English.
>
>The Trustees invite your comments on the updated proposed legend text. We
>believe the updated text incorporates the feedback we have received to date,
>and we hope it clarifies the proposed legend.
>
>The Trustees will meet again in early February to decide on whether to
>revise the Trust License Policy based on the ongoing community discussion.
>If so decided, a revision to the Trust's "Legal Provisions Relating to IETF
>Documents" policy will be published.  Please refer to the attached PDF file
>for an example of how the Legal Provisions document might look if today's
>update to proposed legend text is adopted. A softcopy is available on the
>IETF Trust website under the heading "DRAFT Policy and Procedures Being
>Developed" at:
>http://trustee.ietf.org/policyandprocedures.html 
>
>If you have any comments on the updated proposed legend text, please post
>them before the end of February 7th.  The Trustees need to decide on whether
>to adopt the proposed legend text, and then communicate our decision to you
>on or before February 15th.
>
>Please give this your attention.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ed Juskevicius, on behalf of the IETF Trustees
>edj.etc@gmail.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Ietf mailing list
>Ietf@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     
--=====================_1674762515==_
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Wed Jan 28 03:48:14 2009
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 20:46:38 +0900
To: "LTRU Working Group" 
From: Martin Duerst 
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Subject: [Ltru] Fwd: IAB Response to an Appeal from J-F C. Morfin dd 29 September 2008
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FYI (for your information).      Regards,   Martin.

>From: IAB Chair 
>To: jefsey@jefsey.com, ietf-announce@ietf.org
>Subject: IAB Response to an Appeal from J-F C. Morfin dd 29 September 2008 
>Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:54:11 -0800 (PST)
>List-Id: "IETF announcement list. No discussions." 

>IAB Response to an Appeal from J-F C. Morfin.
>
>On 29 November 2008 the IAB received an appeal from J-F C. Morfin,
>related to an earlier appeal from Mr Morfin to the IESG that the IESG
>rejected on 29 September 2008.
>
>Mr Morfin's appeal includes significant background material, as well as
>details of the original appeal to the IESG.  In the section "Matter of the
>appeal", Mr Morfin appears to accept the IESG's decision in this specific
>case, and raises a number of points related to it.
>
>The IAB understands the relevant points to be these:
>
>1. The IETF should be watching out for the good of the Internet, and when
>something comes up in that regard -- particularly related to
>interoperability -- it should supersede the charter of a Working Group or
>a decision of a WG chair or an Area Director.
>
>2. Challenges to Working Group deliverables on interoperability grounds
>should never be considered off topic.
>
>3. Some documents should have a "Precaution Considerations" section that
>discusses what precautions have been taken to "preserve present and future
>interoperabilities as well as users' requests".
>
>There does not appear to be anything in the IESG's response to Mr
>Morfin's original appeal that Mr Morfin is directly contesting.  Further,
>the IAB, in reviewing that appeal, finds the IESG's response to be
>correct.  Therefore, the IAB's direct response to this appeal is to
>support the IESG's earlier decision.
>
>Beyond that, the IAB considered Mr Morfin's points:
>
>The IAB considered Mr Morfin's allegation that IETF participants are
>unconcerned with the needs of end users, and found this allegation to be
>baseless and without merit.  To the contrary, the needs of Internet users
>are very important to the IETF, to ensure the relevance of its output, and
>that importance is reflected in IETF processes and practice.  The role of
>the IETF is to provide a venue for individuals working on networking
>hardware or software (whether commercial or free) to get together and
>agree on how those networking devices should interoperate to everyone's
>mutual benefit.  That benefit would not be well served by ignoring the
>needs of users, and producing output that no one wants.
>
>The IAB considered Mr Morfin's allegation that IETF participants are
>insufficiently concerned with interoperability problems that may result
>from their work, and found this allegation to be baseless and without
>merit.  Challenges to the quality and interoperability prospects of
>Working Group deliverables are taken seriously and are generally
>considered to be in scope when they are first raised.  Once decisions are
>made -- usually by rough consensus -- raising the same issues repeatedly
>is not accepted.  This is correct: the Working Group must make progress in
>its work, rather than spend its time revisiting old issues when there's
>nothing new added.  In fact, in the case that prompted this appeal, Mr
>Morfin agrees that the upholding of the Working Group chair's decision was
>proper.
>
>The IAB considered Mr Morfin's allegation that IETF participants are
>unconcerned with supporting multilingual text and the needs of
>non-English-speaking network users around the world, and found this
>allegation to be baseless and without merit.  IETF participants are
>actively working in areas related to multilingual text, enabling more
>multilingual use of the Internet.  As to multilingual participation in the
>IETF: any organization doing the sort of work that the IETF does must have
>a lingua franca in which to work.  Most engineering and scientific
>organizations use English as that language, and it seems best for the IETF
>to do so as well.  It is our judgment that IETF participants generally do
>make a strong effort to understand those whose written or spoken English
>skills are imperfect.  Being a worldwide organization, the IETF welcomes
>engineering contributions from individuals everywhere, both from native
>English speakers and from those for whom English is not the first
>language.
>
>The IAB considered Mr Morfin's allegation that end users are "banned"
>from IETF participation, and found this allegation to be baseless and
>without merit.  The IETF is open to anyone who has access to email and
>makes the effort to participate and contribute, and the IETF welcomes and
>actively encourages participation from any individual who wishes to
>contribute in good faith.
>
>The IAB notes that making a worthwhile contribution does take effort. 
>Showing up unprepared and espousing uninformed opinions takes little
>effort, but such behavior rarely amounts to a useful contribution. 
>Similarly, repeatedly raising the same issues or pursuing a specific
>agenda that differs from that of the Working Group disrupts progress.  To
>safeguard against such disruptive behavior, the IETF has procedures,
>outlined in RFC 3683, for banning a disruptive individual from posting to
>Working Group mailing lists, but this is uncommon, and has only happened
>twice since RFC 3683 was published in March 2004.
>
>
>For the IAB,
>
>--Olaf Kolkman,
>  IAB Chair.
>_______________________________________________
>IETF-Announce mailing list
>IETF-Announce@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce


#-#-#  Martin J. Du"rst, Assoc. Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-#-#  http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp       mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp     

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

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Subject: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:17:11 +0100
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From: Gerard Meijssen 
To: LTRU Working Group 
Subject: [Ltru]  Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Hoi,
I have always sadly wondered why the names of languages as spelled in those
languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of that
language. The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. A languag=
e
like Swedish is sverige in Swedish. This list goes on.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Doug Ewell 

In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their code
> list: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes proposed
> throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a couple of
> additional changes.
>
> All of these changes affect the proposed Registry contents in
> draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example, Section 2=
.2
> says that sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on the bas=
is
> that the name includes the words "Sign Language."  However, with the Janu=
ary
> 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language called "International
> Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), which means this rule in
> draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.
>
> One change that I think needs to be presented to the WG involves lowercas=
e
> language names.  In previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the language code 'f=
ss'
> had the following name:
>
>   Finnish-Swedish Sign Language
>
> In the January 20 revision, this name was changed slightly and two
> translations were added, as follows:
>
>   Finland-Swedish Sign Language
>   Finlandssvenskt Teckenspr=C3=A5k
>   Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli
>
> As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages group try to avoid adding
> translated language names to the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  The
> Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary of language names i=
n
> various languages.  But when these translations are provided as official
> names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include them.
>
> So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and lowercase=
d
> the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally suggested (see
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):
>
>   Finland-Swedish Sign Language
>   finlandssvenskt teckenspr=C3=A5k
>   suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli
>
> The only Description field for a language name in the current LSR that
> begins with a lowercase letter is "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name for
> Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without straying off-topic and getting into the
> sort of flame war that usually accompanies discussions about Klingon, thi=
s
> lowercased spelling is generally accepted as the "correct" spelling
> according to the Latin-script orthography for Klingon.
>
> However, I question whether this situation applies to the Finnish and
> Swedish translations above.  With the single exception above, Description
> fields for language subtags normally start with a capital letter.  Note t=
hat
> ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other sign languages, such as
> "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spell their additional names w=
ith
> an initial capital:
>
> Lengua de se=C3=B1as catalana
> Llengua de Signes Catalana
>
> I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry
> generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subta=
gs
> be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin
> with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is considered necessar=
y
> to spell the name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol").  This is
> consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description
> fields to be "edited or modified" from the ISO rendering.
>
> Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it wil=
l
> be added to the next draft-4645bis.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =CB=86
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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Hoi,
I have always sadly wondered why the nam=
es of languages as spelled in those languages is allowed to be incorrect ac=
cording to the rules of that language. The only reason that I know is the &=
quot;history" of a list. A language like Swedish is sverige in Swedish=
. This list goes on.


Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>



In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their code l=
ist: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes proposed thr=
oughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a couple of addi=
tional changes.





All of these changes affect the proposed Registry contents in draft-4645bis=
, and some affect the prose as well.  For example, Section 2.2 says th=
at sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on the basis that t=
he name includes the words "Sign Language."  However, with t=
he January 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language called "I=
nternational Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), whic=
h means this rule in draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.





One change that I think needs to be presented to the WG involves lowercase =
language names.  In previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the language code=
 'fss' had the following name:



   Finnish-Swedish Sign Language



In the January 20 revision, this name was changed slightly and two translat=
ions were added, as follows:



   Finland-Swedish Sign Language

   Finlandssvenskt Teckenspr=C3=A5k

   Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli



As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages group try to avoid adding tran=
slated language names to the IANA Language Subtag Registry.  The Regis=
try is not primarily intended to be a dictionary of language names in vario=
us languages.  But when these translations are provided as official na=
mes by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include them.





So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and lowercased =
the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally suggested (see <=
a href=3D"http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf" target=3D"_bla=
nk">http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):





   Finland-Swedish Sign Language

   finlandssvenskt teckenspr=C3=A5k

   suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli



The only Description field for a language name in the current LSR that begi=
ns with a lowercase letter is "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name =
for Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without straying off-topic and ge=
tting into the sort of flame war that usually accompanies discussions about=
 Klingon, this lowercased spelling is generally accepted as the "corre=
ct" spelling according to the Latin-script orthography for Klingon.




However, I question whether this situation applies to the Finnish and Swedi=
sh translations above.  With the single exception above, Description f=
ields for language subtags normally start with a capital letter.  Note=
 that ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other sign languages, such=
 as "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spell their additi=
onal names with an initial capital:





Lengua de se=C3=B1as catalana

Llengua de Signes Catalana



I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry generally=
, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subtags be modif=
ied from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin with a cap=
ital letter, unless the lowercase letter is considered necessary to spell t=
he name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol").  This is con=
sistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description fields =
to be "edited or modified" from the ISO rendering.





Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it will =
be added to the next draft-4645bis.



--

Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645 &nb=
sp;*  UTN #14

http://www.ewellic.org=


http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html

http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages &n=
bsp;=CB=86



_______________________________________________

Ltru mailing list

Ltru@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru








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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 30 02:11:39 2009
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Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:11:06 +0100
From: Kent Karlsson 
To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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(for some reason all of the original message text has been turned into a
single paragraph; I'm not going to reedit back the newlines)

I would suggest leaving this alone for 4645bis. I have objected to adding
these translations to 639-3, as 639-3 normally does not provide any
translations. (And I pointed out the inappropriateness of applying the
American English bad habit of "titlecasing" to names in other languages. It
is inappropriate for English as well.) It may also happen that these
translations may disappear in a later revision of 639-3 registry content.

    /kent k


Den 2009-01-30 07.08, skrev "Doug Ewell" :

> In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their =

code
> list: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes =

proposed
> throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a =

couple of
> additional changes.

All of these changes affect the proposed Registry
> contents in =

draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example,
> Section =

2.2 says that sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on
> =

the basis that the name includes the words "Sign Language."  However, =

with
> the January 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language =

called
> "International Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), which =

means this
> rule in draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.

One change that I think
> needs to be presented to the WG involves =

lowercase language names.  In
> previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the =

language code 'fss' had the following
> name:

    Finnish-Swedish Sign Language

In the January 20 revision, this
> name was changed slightly and two =

translations were added, as follows:


> Finland-Swedish Sign Language
    Finlandssvenskt Teckenspr=E5k

> Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli

As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages
> group try to avoid adding =

translated language names to the IANA Language
> Subtag Registry.  The =

Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary
> of language names =

in various languages.  But when these translations are
> provided as =

official names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include
> them.

So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and
> =

lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally
> =

suggested (see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):


> Finland-Swedish Sign Language
    finlandssvenskt teckenspr=E5k

> suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

The only Description field for a language
> name in the current LSR that =

begins with a lowercase letter is
> "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name for =

Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without
> straying off-topic and getting into the =

sort of flame war that usually
> accompanies discussions about Klingon, =

this lowercased spelling is generally
> accepted as the "correct" spelling =

according to the Latin-script orthography
> for Klingon.

However, I question whether this situation applies to the
> Finnish and =

Swedish translations above.  With the single exception above,
> =

Description fields for language subtags normally start with a capital
> =

letter.  Note that ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other sign
> =

languages, such as "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spell =

their
> additional names with an initial capital:

Lengua de se=F1as catalana
Llengua de
> Signes Catalana

I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag
> Registry =

generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language
> =

subtags be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure =

they
> begin with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is =

considered
> necessary to spell the name correctly (as it is in =

"tlhIngan-Hol").  This is
> consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, =

which allows Description fields
> to be "edited or modified" from the ISO =

rendering.

Unless someone objects
> on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it =

will be added to the next
> draft-4645bis.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN
> #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm
> l
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> =96

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing
> list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



_______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 30 02:27:10 2009
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From: Kent Karlsson 
To: Gerard Meijssen , LTRU Working Group 
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru]  Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Well, "sverige" would mean "sweden"; "Swedish" is called "svenska".

   While we are nitpicking
    /kent k

Den 2009-01-30 08.17, skrev "Gerard Meijssen" :

> Hoi,
> I have always sadly wondered why the names of languages as spelled in those
> languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of that language.
> The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. A language like
> Swedish is sverige in Swedish. This list goes on.
> Thanks,
>       Gerard


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Re: [Ltru]  Lowercase language names and the Registry




Well, "sverige" would mean "sweden"; "Swedish"=
; is called "svenska".



   While we are nitpicking

    /kent k



Den 2009-01-30 08.17, skrev "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:




<=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>Hoi,

I have always sadly wondered why the names of languages as spelled in those=
 languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of that languag=
e. The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. A langu=
age like Swedish is sverige in Swedish. This list goes on.

Thanks,

      Gerard





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From: Gerard Meijssen 
To: Kent Karlsson 
Cc: LTRU Working Group 
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Hoi,
You are completely right... It shows that I do not know Swedish :) The
sentiment is however the same.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Kent Karlsson 

>
> Well, "sverige" would mean "sweden"; "Swedish" is called "svenska".
>
>    While we are nitpicking
>     /kent k
>
> Den 2009-01-30 08.17, skrev "Gerard Meijssen" :
>
> Hoi,
> I have always sadly wondered why the names of languages as spelled in those
> languages is allowed to be incorrect according to the rules of that
> language. The only reason that I know is the "history" of a list. A language
> like Swedish is sverige in Swedish. This list goes on.
> Thanks,
>       Gerard
>
>

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Hoi,
You are completely right... It shows that I do not know Swedish :) =
The sentiment is however the same.
Thanks,
    &n=
bsp; Gerard

2009/1/30 Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson=
14@comhem.se>













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From: Gerard Meijssen 
To: Kent Karlsson 
Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell 
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Hoi,
The CLDR does include the original names of languages. There is also room
for the translations in all other languages. Consequently it seems
appropriate to me to refer to the CLDR for translations of languages.
Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Kent Karlsson 

> (for some reason all of the original message text has been turned into a
> single paragraph; I'm not going to reedit back the newlines)
>
> I would suggest leaving this alone for 4645bis. I have objected to adding
> these translations to 639-3, as 639-3 normally does not provide any
> translations. (And I pointed out the inappropriateness of applying the
> American English bad habit of "titlecasing" to names in other languages. =
It
> is inappropriate for English as well.) It may also happen that these
> translations may disappear in a later revision of 639-3 registry content.
>
>    /kent k
>
>
> Den 2009-01-30 07.08, skrev "Doug Ewell" :
>
> > In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their
> code
> > list: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes
> proposed
> > throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a
> couple of
> > additional changes.
>
> All of these changes affect the proposed Registry
> > contents in
> draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example,
> > Section
> 2.2 says that sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on
> >
> the basis that the name includes the words "Sign Language."  However,
> with
> > the January 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language
> called
> > "International Sign" (not "International Sign Language"), which
> means this
> > rule in draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.
>
> One change that I think
> > needs to be presented to the WG involves
> lowercase language names.  In
> > previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the
> language code 'fss' had the following
> > name:
>
>    Finnish-Swedish Sign Language
>
> In the January 20 revision, this
> > name was changed slightly and two
> translations were added, as follows:
>
>
> > Finland-Swedish Sign Language
>    Finlandssvenskt Teckenspr=C3=A5k
>
> > Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli
>
> As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages
> > group try to avoid adding
> translated language names to the IANA Language
> > Subtag Registry.  The
> Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary
> > of language names
> in various languages.  But when these translations are
> > provided as
> official names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include
> > them.
>
> So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and
> >
> lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally
> >
> suggested (see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):
>
>
> > Finland-Swedish Sign Language
>    finlandssvenskt teckenspr=C3=A5k
>
> > suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli
>
> The only Description field for a language
> > name in the current LSR that
> begins with a lowercase letter is
> > "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name for
> Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without
> > straying off-topic and getting into the
> sort of flame war that usually
> > accompanies discussions about Klingon,
> this lowercased spelling is generally
> > accepted as the "correct" spelling
> according to the Latin-script orthography
> > for Klingon.
>
> However, I question whether this situation applies to the
> > Finnish and
> Swedish translations above.  With the single exception above,
> >
> Description fields for language subtags normally start with a capital
> >
> letter.  Note that ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other sign
> >
> languages, such as "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spell
> their
> > additional names with an initial capital:
>
> Lengua de se=C3=B1as catalana
> Llengua de
> > Signes Catalana
>
> I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag
> > Registry
> generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language
> >
> subtags be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure
> they
> > begin with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is
> considered
> > necessary to spell the name correctly (as it is in
> "tlhIngan-Hol").  This is
> > consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5,
> which allows Description fields
> > to be "edited or modified" from the ISO
> rendering.
>
> Unless someone objects
> > on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it
> will be added to the next
> > draft-4645bis.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN
> > #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm
> > l
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> > =E2=80=93
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing
> > list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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Hoi,
The CLDR does include the original names of languages. There is als=
o room for the translations in all other languages. Consequently it seems a=
ppropriate to me to refer to the CLDR for translations of languages.

Thanks,
      Gerard

2009/1/30 Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>

(for some reason all of the original message text has been turned into a
single paragraph; I'm not going to reedit back the newlines)



I would suggest leaving this alone for 4645bis. I have objected to adding
these translations to 639-3, as 639-3 normally does not provide any

translations. (And I pointed out the inappropriateness of applying the

American English bad habit of "titlecasing" to names in other lan=
guages. It

is inappropriate for English as well.) It may also happen that these

translations may disappear in a later revision of 639-3 registry content.


    /kent k





Den 2009-01-30 07.08, skrev "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>:




> In the past few days, ISO 639-3/RA has released two updates to their
code

> list: a major update on January 20 comprising dozens of changes

proposed

> throughout 2008, and a much smaller update on January 26 with a

couple of

> additional changes.



All of these changes affect the proposed Registry

> contents in

draft-4645bis, and some affect the prose as well.  For example,

> Section

2.2 says that sign languages are identified and made into extlangs on

>

the basis that the name includes the words "Sign Language."  =
;However,

with

> the January 20 changes, ISO 639-3/RA approved a sign language

called

> "International Sign" (not "International Sign Language&=
quot;), which

means this

> rule in draft-4645bis needs to be modified slightly.



One change that I think

> needs to be presented to the WG involves

lowercase language names.  In

> previous revisions of ISO 639-3, the

language code 'fss' had the following

> name:



    Finnish-Swedish Sign Language



In the January 20 revision, this

> name was changed slightly and two

translations were added, as follows:





> Finland-Swedish Sign Language

    Finlandssvenskt Teckenspr=C3=A5k



> Suomenruotsalainen Viittomakieli



As a general rule, we and the ietf-languages

> group try to avoid adding

translated language names to the IANA Language

> Subtag Registry.  The

Registry is not primarily intended to be a dictionary

> of language names

in various languages.  But when these translations are

> provided as

official names by the ISO standard, we go ahead and include

> them.



So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and

>

lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally

>

suggested (see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):=






> Finland-Swedish Sign Language

    finlandssvenskt teckenspr=C3=A5k



> suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli



The only Description field for a language

> name in the current LSR that

begins with a lowercase letter is

> "tlhIngan-Hol", an additional name for

Klingon (subtag 'tlh').  Without

> straying off-topic and getting into the

sort of flame war that usually

> accompanies discussions about Klingon,

this lowercased spelling is generally

> accepted as the "correct" spelling

according to the Latin-script orthography

> for Klingon.



However, I question whether this situation applies to the

> Finnish and

Swedish translations above.  With the single exception above,

>

Description fields for language subtags normally start with a capital

>

letter.  Note that ISO 639-3 already has translated names for other si=
gn

>

languages, such as "Catalan Sign Language," and has chosen to spe=
ll

their

> additional names with an initial capital:



Lengua de se=C3=B1as catalana

Llengua de

> Signes Catalana



I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag

> Registry

generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language

>

subtags be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure

they

> begin with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is

considered

> necessary to spell the name correctly (as it is in

"tlhIngan-Hol").  This is

> consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5,

which allows Description fields

> to be "edited or modified" from the ISO

rendering.



Unless someone objects

> on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it

will be added to the next

> draft-4645bis.



--

Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645 &nb=
sp;*  UTN

> #14

http://www.ewellic.org=


http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm

> l

http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> =E2=80=93



_______________________________________________

Ltru mailing

> list

Ltru@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru







_______________________________________________

Ltru mailing list

Ltru@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru





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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Doug Ewell 2009-01-30 07.08:

> So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and =

> lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally =

> suggested (see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):
> =

>    Finland-Swedish Sign Language
>    finlandssvenskt teckenspr=E5k
>    suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

    [...]

> I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry =

> generally, we introduce a rule that Description fields for language =

> subtags be modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure =

> they begin with a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is =

> considered necessary to spell the name correctly (as it is in =

> "tlhIngan-Hol").  This is consistent with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, =

> which allows Description fields to be "edited or modified" from the ISO =

> rendering.
> =

> Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it =

> will be added to the next draft-4645bis.

In my view it is defendable to let language names begin with =

upper-case letter even in Scandinavian languages, as long as the =

names appears in a list -aka "menu" - as opposed to in a comma =

separated line of words. Hence, I'm ok with it.
-- =

leif halvard silli
_______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 30 09:54:42 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Hi.  I think Leif and Doug get my vote here. In a list I'd feel comfortable=
 'title-casing' the first word in French (a language in which language name=
s are also normally 'lower-cased').But I'm not a native speaker.   (NOTE:  =
I found different conventions regarding titles online:http://www.google.com=
/search?hl=3Den&q=3Dhistoire+du+francais&btnG=3DSearch http://www.google.co=
m/search?hl=3Den&q=3Dfrancais&btnG=3DSearch [these are not lists however=2C=
 just titles].when a French title appears on a book in the U.S. market=2C e=
very word on the book may be title-cased:http://shopping.msn.com/prices/all=
ons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd/itemid25043275/?itemtext=3Ditemn=
ame:allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd Wikipedia has two convent=
ions for lists in French it seems?:http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_la=
ngues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tiquehttp://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_lan=
gues_officiellesin one the first word=2C whether the language name or a def=
inite article preceding the name=2C is 'upper cased'=3B in the other list t=
he names are almost all 'lower cased') Thanks. --C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@h=
otmail.com  =20
 From: Leif Halvard Silli  To: Doug Ewell  Doug Ewell 2009-01-30 07.08:
So far so good=2C but then the January 26 revision came along and lowercase=
d the Finnish and Swedish names=2C as the requestor originally suggested (s=
ee http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):    Finland-Swedish S=
ign Language
   finlandssvenskt teckenspr=E5k
   suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli
   [...]


I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry generally=
=2C we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subtags be mod=
ified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin with a c=
apital letter=2C unless the lowercase letter is considered necessary to spe=
ll the name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol"). This is consistent with=
 draft-4646bis=2C Section 3.1.5=2C which allows Description fields to be "e=
dited or modified" from the ISO rendering. Unless someone objects on-list t=
o this rather pedantic suggestion=2C it will be added to the next draft-464=
5bis. In my view it is defendable to let language names begin with upper-ca=
se letter even in Scandinavian languages=2C as long as the names appears in=
 a list -aka "menu" - as opposed to in a comma separated line of words. Hen=
ce=2C I'm ok with it. --
leif halvard silli

--_3ca36b5a-f3ed-453a-8e0f-51ba883f4771_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable







Hi. =3B I think Leif and Doug get my vote here.<=
/FONT>
 =3B
=
In a list I'd feel comfortable 'title-casing' the first =
word in French (a language in which language names are also normally 'lower=
-cased').
But I'm=
 not a native speaker.  
 =3B
(NOTE:  I found different conventions regarding titles online:
htt=
p://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&=3Bq=3Dhistoire+du+francais&=3BbtnG=
=3DSearch 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&a=
mp=3Bq=3Dfrancais&=3BbtnG=3DSearch [these =
are not lists however=2C just titles].
when a French title appears on a book in the U.S. mar=
ket=2C every word on the book may be title-cased:
http://shopping.msn.c=
om/prices/allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd/itemid25043275/?ite=
mtext=3Ditemname:allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd&n=
bsp=3B
Wikipedia has two=
 conventions for lists in French it seems?:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de=
_langues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tique
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/=
Liste_des_langues_officielles
in one the first word=2C whether the language name or a de=
finite article preceding the name=2C is 'upper cased'=3B in the other list =
the names are almost all 'lower cased')
 =3B
Thanks.
 =3B
--=
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com 
 =3B

 =3B


 =3B
From: Leif Halvard Silli <=3Blhs at malform.no>=3B 
To: Doug Ewell <=3Bdoug at ewellic.org>=3B 
Doug Ewell=
 2009-01-30 07.08:


So far so good=2C but then the January 26 revision c=
ame along and lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names=2C as the r=
equestor originally suggested (see http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/c=
r_files/2008-028.pdf): 
   Finland-Swedi=
sh Sign Language
   finlandssvenskt teckenspr=E5k
   suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

   [...]




I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Su=
btag Registry generally=2C we introduce a rule that Description fi=
elds for language subtags be modified from the ISO-provided name i=
f necessary to ensure they begin with a capital letter=2C unless t=
he lowercase letter is considered necessary to spell the name corr=
ectly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol"). This is consistent with draft-=
4646bis=2C Section 3.1.5=2C which allows Description fields to be =
"edited or modified" from the ISO rendering. 
Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic=
 suggestion=2C it will be added to the next draft-4645bis. 
In my view it is defendable=
 to let language names begin with upper-case letter even in Scandi=
navian languages=2C as long as the names appears in a list -aka "m=
enu" - as opposed to in a comma separated line of words. Hence=2C =
I'm ok with it. 
--
leif halvard silli


=

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_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--===============0832860701==--

From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 30 10:07:06 2009
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Message-ID: <41a006820901301006p2988f383lddd7c5fa37ad6798@mail.gmail.com>
From: Gerard Meijssen 
To: CE Whitehead 
Cc: ltru@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Hoi,
If the list is ony to be used as a list with a local application, I agree.
When people want to use lists like this or the CLDR language list, they
depend on the information to be right. It is not and people do.
Thanks,
       Gerard

2009/1/30 CE Whitehead 

>
> Hi.  I think Leif and Doug get my vote here.
>
>
> In a list I'd feel comfortable 'title-casing' the first word in French (a=
 language in which language names are also normally 'lower-cased').
>
> But I'm not a native speaker.
>
>
>
> (NOTE:  I found different conventions regarding titles online:
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3Dhistoire+du+francais&btnG=3DSear=
ch
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3Dfrancais&btnG=3DSearch [these ar=
e not lists however, just titles].
>
> when a French title appears on a book in the U.S. market, every word on t=
he book may be title-cased:
>
> http://shopping.msn.com/prices/allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-with-audio=
-cd/itemid25043275/?itemtext=3Ditemname:allons-y-le-francais-par-etapes-wit=
h-audio-cd
>
> Wikipedia has two conventions for lists in French it seems?:
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_de_langues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tique
>
> http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_langues_officielles
>
> in one the first word, whether the language name or a definite article pr=
eceding the name, is 'upper cased'; in the other list the names are almost =
all 'lower cased')
>
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> --C. E. Whitehead
>
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>  From: Leif Halvard Silli >
> To: Doug Ewell >
>
> Doug Ewell 2009-01-30 07.08:
>
> So far so good, but then the January 26 revision came along and lowercase=
d
> the Finnish and Swedish names, as the requestor originally suggested (see
> http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf):
>
>    Finland-Swedish Sign Language
>    finlandssvenskt teckenspr=C3=A5k
>    suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli
>
>    [...]
>
>
> I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Language Subtag Registry general=
ly,
> we introduce a rule that Description fields for language subtags be
> modified from the ISO-provided name if necessary to ensure they begin wit=
h
> a capital letter, unless the lowercase letter is considered necessary to
> spell the name correctly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol"). This is consistent
> with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description fields to be
> "edited or modified" from the ISO rendering.
>
> Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion, it wil=
l
> be added to the next draft-4645bis.
>
> In my view it is defendable to let language names begin with upper-case
> letter even in Scandinavian languages, as long as the names appears in a
> list -aka "menu" - as opposed to in a comma separated line of words.
> Hence, I'm ok with it.
>
> --
> leif halvard silli
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

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Hoi,
If the list is ony to be used as a list with a local application, I=
 agree. When people want to use lists like this or the CLDR language list, =
they depend on the information to be right. It is not and people do.

Thanks,
       Gerard

2009/1/30 CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>








Hi.  I think Leif and Doug get my vote here.<=
/font>
 
In a list I'd feel comfortable 'title-casing&=
#39; the first word in French (a language in which language names are also =
normally 'lower-cased').


But I'm not a native s=
peaker.  
 
(NOTE:  I f=
ound different conventions regarding titles online:


http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3Dhistoire+du+franc=
ais&btnG=3DSearch 


http://www.google.com/search?hl=3Den&q=3Dfrancais&btnG=3DSearch [these are not lists however, just titles].


when a French title appear=
s on a book in the U.S. market, every word on the book may be title-cased:<=
/font>
http://shopping.msn.com/prices/allons-y-le-francai=
s-par-etapes-with-audio-cd/itemid25043275/?itemtext=3Ditemname:allons-y-le-=
francais-par-etapes-with-audio-cd 


Wikipedia has two conventi=
ons for lists in French it seems?:
=
http://fr.wikipedia.org/w=
iki/Liste_de_langues_par_ordre_alphab%C3%A9tique


http://fr.wi=
kipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_langues_officielles
in one the first word, whether the language name or a =
definite article preceding the name, is 'upper cased'; in the other=
 list the names are almost all 'lower cased')
 
Thanks.
 
--C. E. Whitehead


cewcathar@hotmail.com 
 

 


 
From: Leif Halvard Silli <lhs at malform.no> 
To: Doug Ewell <doug at ewellic.org> 


Doug Ewell 2009-01-30 07.08:

So far so good, but then the January 26 revisi=
on came along and lowercased the Finnish and Swedish names, as the=
 requestor originally suggested (see http://=
www.sil.org/iso639-3/cr_files/2008-028.pdf): 
   Finland-Swedish Sign Language
   finlandssvenskt teckenspr=C3=A5k
   suomenruotsalainen viittomakieli

   [...]




I propose that for draft-4645bis and the Langu=
age Subtag Registry generally, we introduce a rule that Descriptio=
n fields for language subtags be modified from the ISO-provided na=
me if necessary to ensure they begin with a capital letter, unless=
 the lowercase letter is considered necessary to spell the name co=
rrectly (as it is in "tlhIngan-Hol"). This is consistent=
 with draft-4646bis, Section 3.1.5, which allows Description field=
s to be "edited or modified" from the ISO rendering. 
Unless someone objects on-list to this rather pedantic suggestion=
, it will be added to the next draft-4645bis. 
In my view it is defendable to let lang=
uage names begin with upper-case letter even in Scandinavian langu=
ages, as long as the names appears in a list -aka "menu"=
 - as opposed to in a comma separated line of words. Hence, I'=
m ok with it. 
--
leif halvard silli



_______________________________________________

Ltru mailing list

Ltru@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru





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_______________________________________________
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From: "Phillips, Addison" 
To: Gerard Meijssen , CE Whitehead 
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:14:47 -0800
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Lowercase language names and the Registry
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_______________________________________________
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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Fri Jan 30 11:00:04 2009
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From: "Phillips, Addison" 
To: Martin Duerst , Randy Presuhn 
Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:59:41 -0800
Thread-Topic: Editor's copy of draft-4646bis updated...
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All,

I have just posted a draft-21 editor's copy on Inter-Locale. This has NOT been submitted to the IETF yet, per the co-chair's instructions. This version incorporates a few errata but not yet the reference to the Awfully New IPR RFC.

   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21.html
   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21.txt
   http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21.xml

Regards (for the editors)

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


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From ltru-bounces@ietf.org  Sat Jan 31 11:26:44 2009
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I would prefer to modify the record for subtag YU by removing
the P-V of CS.
Both for the formal reason you give, but also for the reasons that
Yugoslavia most of the time was larger than Serbia and Montenegro (and
Serbia and Montenegro used the name Yugoslavia only initially). Furthermore,
as we all(?) know, CS used to refer to Czechoslovakia. All of this speaks
for leaving YU deprecated without a P-V.

    /kent k


Den 2009-01-31 19.56, skrev "Doug Ewell" :

> Apologies in advance if this has been discussed already.

Region subtag YU
> ("Yugoslavia") is currently deprecated with a =

Preferred-Value of CS ("Serbia
> and Montenegro").  CS, in turn, has been =

deprecated since 2006-10-05 with no
> Preferred-Value, but with a comment =

to "see" (i.e. use) RS for Serbia or ME
> for Montenegro.

At some point during the LTRU 2.0 effort, we agreed to "snap
> the =

Preferred-Value pointers," so to speak, so that if subtag Alpha is
> =

deprecated with a P-V of subtag Beta, and Beta is deprecated with a P-V =

of
> Gamma, we would change the P-V for Alpha to point directly to Gamma, =

so the
> user wouldn't have to follow a chain of P-Vs.

In draft-4645bis, should we
> modify the record for subtag YU by removing =

the P-V of CS, since CS is itself
> deprecated with no P-V?

(Sorry for the alphabet soup.  You may need to read
> this post again.)

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *
> UTN =

> #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm
> l
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
> =96

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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> In draft-4645bis, should we modify the record for subtag YU by removing 
> the P-V of CS, since CS is itself deprecated with no P-V?

+1 for removing CS.

I'd propose adding a comment something like "See BA, HR, ME, MK, RS, or SI."

-- 
John Cowan    cowan@ccil.org    http://ccil.org/~cowan
This great college [Trinity], of this ancient university [Cambridge],
has seen some strange sights. It has seen Wordsworth drunk and Porson
sober. And here am I, a better poet than Porson, and a better scholar
than Wordsworth, somewhere betwixt and between.  --A.E. Housman
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