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Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 16:02:23 +0200
From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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See below. This message includes proposed text towards the end of the
message.

Den 2009-04-30 22.53, skrev "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>:

> Although I agree with your sentiments, I think we can avoid some addition=
al
> working group bloodletting by being careful with our wording choices. I
> particularly note that RFC 2119 keywords, while have a normative weight t=
o
> them, are not the only way to be =B3normative=B2 in a spec. Thus, I propose t=
o
> take your suggestion:
> =20
> --
> The default canonical form SHOULD normally be used for canonicalization. =
The
> extended canonical form may be useful
> in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in
> matching or selection.
> --
> =20
> =8A but modified to read=8A
> =20
> --
> <t>Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. However, the
> 'extended' canonical form is useful
> in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in
> matching or selection (see <xref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).</t=
>
> --
> =20
> In incorporating your proposed changes, I noticed that there was no need =
for
> double- or triple-list embedding. I also note that, since we are describi=
ng a
> canonicalization process, using 2119 keywords isn=B9t necessary. We can jus=
t say
> =B3do X=B2.
> =20
> The resulting text reads as:
> =20
> --
> A language tag is in a canonical form when the tag is well-formed accordi=
ng
> the rules in <xref target=3D"syntax"/> and
> <xref target=3D"sources"/> and it has been canonicalized as follows:

I think the fact that there are two canonical forms should be made clear
from the outset, not just further down in the definition.

> =A0<list style=3D"numbers">
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
> =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0
> <t>Redundant or grandfathered tags that have a Preferred-Value mapping in=
 the
> IANA registry (see <xref target=3D"ianaformat"/>) are replaced with their m=
apped
> value.

That takes care of "redundant" and "grandfathered" (whole) tags, but not
subtag entries like "iw"-> "he", "in" -> "id", ... They are left to much
later. I don't see why. Logically they belong here.

Here the term "mapped value" is used, but I think "preferred value" is
clearer, and does not introduce another term.

> These items are either deprecated mappings created before the adoption
> of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" =
to
> "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or additions to this docu=
ment
> (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'h=
ak'
> when this document was adopted).

This is auxiliary text that is not needed for the definition of canonical
form(s).

> These mappings MUST be done before additional
> processing, since there can be additional changes to subtag values.

"additional processing"? Do you mean that they are to be performed as the
first step in canonicalisation, since the following steps may do additional
changes? I guess so, but the text does not say that. It seems to refer to
some other processing (that is "additional"). And if it refers to
canonicalisation, which I think it does, grandfathered and redundant tags
can't have more subtags applied to them, so for them the only following
changes to subtags must be within the preferred value tag, and then (as lon=
g
as Hant and Hans are not deprecated) it is only replacement of a primary
language tag with a macrolangauge-extlang combination (for the extended
canonical form) that may happen.

> These=20
> field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant tags is=
 an
> "extended language range" (<xref target=3D"RFC4647"></xref>) and might cons=
ist
> of more than one subtag.</t>

> <t>One of the following canonical forms has been applied:

That sentence is odd, a definition of canonical forms within the definition
of canonical form...

> <list style=3D"letters">
> =A0=20
> <t>In the 'default' canonical form, subtags of type 'extlang' are mapped =
to
> their Preferred-Value. The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs=
 is
> an "extended language range",

Mapping just the subtag will not do anything here (if we just consider the
strings, ignoring the primary langauge vs. extlang classification). One
needs to map the language tag prefix, up to and including the extlang subta=
g
in question, to the preferred value. Due to the restriction to at most one
level of extlang, it suffices to say that needs to map the
macrolangauge-extlang combination (as a prefix) to the preferred value.

> typically a primary language subtag (in all such
> cases, the primary language subtag is removed).

I don't think one need to say "typically", particularly not next to saying
"in all such cases", is a good formulation. And the primary language subtag
is of course not removed, all language tags have a primary language subtag,
but the macrolanguage-extlang combination, as a prefix, is replaced by
another primary language subtag (which **as a string** in all cases are
equal to the extlang subtag).

> For example, the subtag
> sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the tag "hak"
> (Hakka).</t>
> =20
> <t>In the 'extended' canonical form, primary language subtags with a
> 'Macrolanguage' field that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are

The sign language primary language subtags have no macrolanguage. Do you
mean to exclude those from getting "sgn-" prepended? I guess not.

> replaced by their macrolanguage-extlang combination. For example, the lan=
guage
> tag "hak" (Hakka) has a Macrolanguage of 'zh' (Chinese) and an existing
> 'extlang' registration. The tag would be replaced with that tag "zh-hak"
> (Chinese, Hakka).</t>
> =20
> </list></t>
> =20
> <t>Other subtags that have a Preferred-Value field in the IANA registry (=
see
> <xref target=3D"ianaformat"/>) have been replaced with their mapped value.

> Most=20
> of these are either Region subtags where the country name or designation =
has
> changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1.</t>

Auxiliary text that is not needed in the definition.

> <t>If more than one extension subtag sequence exists, the extension seque=
nces
> are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag (that i=
s,
> the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble').</t>

The extension subtags and the name "extended canonical form" could make a
reader believe that they are somehow related. I'd prefer to use the term
"extlang canonical form", since that form keeps/introduces extlangs (as
opposed to the default canonical form) and is unrelated to extensions.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
PROPOSED TEXT:

A language tag is in canonical form, either default canonical form or
extlang canonical form, when the tag is well-formed according to the
rules in <xref target=3D"syntax"/> and <xref target=3D"sources"/> and
canonicalising it does not change it.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Comment: maybe it would be clearer to have "well-formed" refer to just
the syntax (which is not dependent on current registry data), and have
"well-defined" for the additional requirement that the subtags are
(currently) registered.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Canonicalisation of a well-formed [or well-defined, see comment above]
language tag is defined by doing the following steps, in order, using data
from the current IANA language subtag registry (<xref
target=3D"ianaformat"/>).

1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII
   order by the singleton subtags. (At the time of publication of this
   document, there were no extension subtags registered.)

2. A redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field in
   the IANA registry is replaced with its preferred value.

3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in the IANA
   registry is replaced with its preferred value.

4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is replaced by the
   preferred value registered for the extlang.

5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form),
   a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag
   is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination, where the
   primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang.


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Comment: This would be a clear and simple step-by-step definition of the
canonical forms. After this definition you can put text about usage,
examples, and auxiliary explanatory text to your hearts content (those in
the original text are fine in general, just move such text to after the
definition).
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

        /kent k



From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Fri May  1 08:40:27 2009
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Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 17:41:42 +0200
From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C620E4D6.BC09%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Thread-Topic: zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
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> Detta meddelande Šr i MIME-format. PŒ grund av att din e-postlŠsare inte fšrstŒr
detta format, kommer hela eller delar av detta meddelande inte att vara lŠsbart.

--B_3324044506_104912014
Content-type: text/plain;
	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Regarding the example

zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile

that occurs in section 4.4.2, I find it less than ideal to use "x-wadegile",
now that "wadegile" is a registered variant subtag. At least some comment
regarding this would be in order, in case you don't want to change the
example.

        /kent k


--B_3324044506_104912014
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	charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Regarding the example<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"1"><FONT FACE=3D"Courier New"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-siz=
e:9pt'>zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN =
STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>that occurs in section 4.4.2, I find it less than ide=
al to use &quot;x-wadegile&quot;, now that &quot;wadegile&quot; is a registe=
red variant subtag. At least some comment regarding this would be in order, =
in case you don't want to change the example.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/kent k<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3324044506_104912014--



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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 08:45:49 -0700
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Fri May  1 09:57:10 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <C620E4D6.BC09%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FEF5A2D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

There is no prohibition on the stuff following the "x-" from
looking like something that has been registered, so I don't
see anything wrong with the example.  I'd even consider it
a feature.

As co-chair...

AUTH48 would *NOT* be an appropriate time to consider such a change.

We can do it now, if we think this is a technical problem that
will cause deployment or interoperability problems, or a serious
editorial problem that would lead to the specification being
misunderstood.  *If* others think this is important, I'll
enter it into the tracker and we can discuss it.

Randy

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Kent Karlsson" <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 8:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
>
> Last Call is over. Perhaps we can consider this as an errata for AUTH48 (he says, glancing to the co-chairs)
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent Karlsson
> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 8:42 AM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: [Ltru] zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
>
> Regarding the example
>
> zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
>
> that occurs in section 4.4.2, I find it less than ideal to use "x-wadegile", now that "wadegile" is a registered variant subtag.
At least some comment regarding this would be in order, in case you don't want to change the example.
>
>         /kent k
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>



From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Fri May  1 13:04:30 2009
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From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
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I would just propose to at a short note, along the lines of:

    "Note that 'wadegile' is now a registered variant subtag, and that
    should be used for designating the Wade-Giles romanisation rather
    than a private-use subtag."

Just to avoid having the example being read as a current recommendation of
some kind, w.r.t. Wade-Giles romanisation tagging.

I will not push for this if others think it is bad idea to edit that in now.

    /kent k


Den 2009-05-01 19.00, skrev "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:

> Hi -
> 
> As a technical contributor...
> 
> There is no prohibition on the stuff following the "x-" from
> looking like something that has been registered, so I don't
> see anything wrong with the example.  I'd even consider it
> a feature.
> 
> As co-chair...
> 
> AUTH48 would *NOT* be an appropriate time to consider such a change.
> 
> We can do it now, if we think this is a technical problem that
> will cause deployment or interoperability problems, or a serious
> editorial problem that would lead to the specification being
> misunderstood.  *If* others think this is important, I'll
> enter it into the tracker and we can discuss it.
> 
> Randy
> 
>> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
>> To: "Kent Karlsson" <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>; "LTRU Working Group"
>> <ltru@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 8:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
>> 
>> Last Call is over. Perhaps we can consider this as an errata for AUTH48 (he
>> says, glancing to the co-chairs)
>> 
>> Addison
>> 
>> Addison Phillips
>> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>> 
>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>> It is an architecture.
>> 
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Kent
>> Karlsson
>> Sent: Friday, May 01, 2009 8:42 AM
>> To: LTRU Working Group
>> Subject: [Ltru] zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
>> 
>> Regarding the example
>> 
>> zh-Latn-CN-variant1-a-extend1-x-wadegile
>> 
>> that occurs in section 4.4.2, I find it less than ideal to use "x-wadegile",
>> now that "wadegile" is a registered variant subtag.
> At least some comment regarding this would be in order, in case you don't want
> to change the example.
>> 
>>         /kent k
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Hi!
From: "Phillips=2C Addison" <addison at amazon.com>=20

=20

Date: Thu=2C 30 Apr 2009 09:13:11 -0700=20
>(as individual contributor)
=20
>> >    3.  In the 'default' canonical form=2C subtags of type 'extlang'
>> MUST
>> >    4.  In the 'extended' canonical form=2C primary language subtags
>> with a
=20
>> I propose the names "short" and "long" respectively.

> 'extended' seems like a more natural name for the latter form.* Yes >I ac=
knowledge that the name 'default' is prejudicial=2C in its way=2C but it wa=
s the previous intent of 'SHOULD' and it is the canonical form that the reg=
istry is optimized for. > If we don't want to say that it's the default=2C =
we could pick a name that is partial antonym for 'extended'=2C such as 'com=
pact'=2C 'regular'=2C or (hmm...) 'short'. 'abbreviated'?  'brief'?  But I =
have no problem with 'default'. Also=2C I like Mark's text=3B it's clear: 4=
.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

  Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes=2C
  language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
  form.

  There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
  canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred-Value.
  The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolanguage primary
  language subtag before eligible (extended) language subtags." And I think=
 I understand Addison's amendment (I'm just not up on the changes to the va=
lues that occur during processing--the length is changed?) & agree there ne=
eds to be an amendment: ""These mappings MUST be done before additional pro=
cessing=2C since there can be additional changes to subtag values."
  Best=2C--C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com> How about 'short' and 'ext=
ended'?
>If we don't say 'default' (or even if we do)=2C oughtn't we to have some t=
ext explaining when to use which?

>Addison

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<H1><FONT style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt" size=3D2>Hi!</FONT></H1>
From: "Phillips=2C Addison" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:addison@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">=
addison at amazon.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Date: Thu=2C 30 Apr 2009 09:13:11 -0700 <BR><PRE>&gt=3B(as individual contr=
ibutor)
=20
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    3.  In the 'default' canonical form=2C subtags of ty=
pe 'extlang'
&gt=3B&gt=3B MUST
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    4.  In the 'extended' canonical form=2C primary lang=
uage subtags
&gt=3B&gt=3B with a
=20
&gt=3B&gt=3B I propose the names "short" and "long" respectively.

&gt=3B 'extended' seems like a more natural name for the latter form.</PRE>=
<PRE>* Yes </PRE><PRE>&gt=3BI acknowledge that the name 'default' is prejud=
icial=2C in its way=2C but it was the previous intent of 'SHOULD' and it is=
 the canonical form that the registry is optimized for. </PRE><PRE>&gt=3B I=
f we don't want to say that it's the default=2C we could pick a name that i=
s partial antonym for 'extended'=2C such as 'compact'=2C 'regular'=2C or (h=
mm...) 'short'. </PRE><PRE>'abbreviated'?  'brief'?  But I have no problem =
with 'default'.</PRE><PRE>&nbsp=3B</PRE><PRE>Also=2C I like Mark's text=3B =
it's clear:</PRE><PRE>&nbsp=3B</PRE><PRE><DIV class=3Dim>4.5. &nbsp=3BCanon=
icalization of Language Tags<BR><BR></DIV>&nbsp=3B Since a particular langu=
age tag is sometimes used by many processes=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B language tags SH=
OULD always be created or generated in a canonical<BR>&nbsp=3B form.<BR><BR=
>&nbsp=3B There are two canonical forms for language tags. &nbsp=3BThe 'def=
ault'<BR>&nbsp=3B canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferre=
d-Value.<BR>&nbsp=3B The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolangua=
ge primary<BR>&nbsp=3B language subtag before eligible (extended) language =
subtags."<DIV>&nbsp=3B</DIV><DIV>And I think I understand Addison's amendme=
nt (I'm just not up on the changes to the values that occur during processi=
ng--the length is changed?) &amp=3B agree there needs to be an amendment:</=
DIV><DIV>&nbsp=3B</DIV><DIV>""These mappings MUST be done before additional=
 processing=2C since there can be additional changes to subtag values."<BR>=
</DIV><PRE>&nbsp=3B</PRE><PRE> Best=2C</PRE></PRE><PRE>--C. E. Whitehead</P=
RE><PRE><A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><=
/PRE><PRE>&gt=3B How about 'short' and 'extended'?
&gt=3BIf we don't say 'default' (or even if we do)=2C oughtn't we to have s=
ome text explaining when to use which?

&gt=3BAddison
</PRE></body>
</html>=

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Hi!

=20

I. =20
I still think Mark=92s text reads more clearly than other possible introduc=
tory text and that it is the text to start with in the introduction to cano=
nicalization . . . I can't do anything with:
"A language tag is in canonical form=2C either default canonical form or
extlang canonical form=2C when the tag is well-formed according to the
rules in <xref target=3D"syntax"/> and <xref target=3D"sources"/> and
canonicalising it does not change it"=20

Mark's text clearly introduces the two types of canonicalization=2C which y=
ou all seem to think you need to do.

)


=20

Mark=92s suggested introductory text:

=20

"4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

  Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes=2C
  language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
  form.

  There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
  canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred-Value.
  The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolanguage primary
  language subtag before eligible (extended) language subtags."

=20

=20

However=2C Kent points out that=2C

"Mapping just the subtag will not do anything here (if we just consider the
strings=2C ignoring the primary language vs. extlang classification). One
needs to map the language tag prefix=2C up to and including the extlang sub=
tag
in question=2C to the preferred value."=20

=20

So then=2C do we replace:=20

"each 'extlang' subtag"=20

with=20

"each subtag in the primary language-extension language combination" ???

=20

Also=2C I want to clarify the implication of Kent=92s suggested change to t=
he steps in canonicalization going to affect the use of the term "macrolang=
uage" in the above?(Kent's worried about sign language subtags that are ext=
ension language subtags but don't have a macrolanguage):

"5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form)=
=2C   a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' sub=
tag   is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination=2C wher=
e the

   primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang."

=20

Does the above mean that we need to say here:

"The =91extlang=92 canonical form includes the registered prefix for the ex=
tension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags"

???

(I noted that Kent did not like "extended canonical form" and acted accordi=
ngly.)

=20

These changes would result in:

=20

  "Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes=2C
  language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
  form.

  There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
  canonical form maps each each subtag in the primary language-extension la=
nguage combination to its Preferred-Value.
  The 'extended' canonical form includes the registered prefix for the exte=
nsion language before eligible (extlang) language subtags."

=20

II.

=20

I also find the following text useful:

<t>Normally=2C the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. However=2C the =
'extlang' canonical form  is useful

=20

in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in ma=
tching or selection (see <xref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).</t>

=20

III.

=20

My goof on Addison=92s text (below)=97as Kent pointed out=2C Addison means =
that: =93mapping a subtag to its preferred value should occur before any ad=
ditional steps in canonicalization=94

=20

>"These mappings MUST be done before additional processing=2C since there c=
an be additional changes to subtag values."=20

>form(s)."

=20

But then would not Kent's suggested step 2  (below) become step 1? but othe=
rwise everything follows mapping:

=20

>Canonicalisation of a well-formed [or well-defined=2C see comment above]

>language tag is defined by doing the following steps=2C in order=2C using =
data

>from the current IANA language subtag registry (<xref

>target=3D"ianaformat"/>).

=20

>1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII

>   order by the singleton subtags. (At the time of publication of this

>   document=2C there were no extension subtags registered.)

=20

>2. A redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field in

>   the IANA registry is replaced with its preferred value.

=20

> 3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in the IANA

>   registry is replaced with its preferred value.

=20

> 4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is replaced by the

>   preferred value registered for the extlang.

=20

> 5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form=
)=2C

>   a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subta=
g

>   is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination=2C where =
the

>   primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang.


(NOTE: Hope my suggestions make some sense.  Sorry if I'm not keeping up wi=
th the discussion on this (the postings online aren't quite up-to-date???)


--C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com

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Hi!<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I.&nbsp=3B <BR>I still think Mark=92s text reads more clearly than other po=
ssible introductory text and that it is the text to start with in the intro=
duction to canonicalization . . . I can't do anything with:<BR>"A language =
tag is in canonical form=2C either default canonical form or<BR>extlang can=
onical form=2C when the tag is well-formed according to the<BR>rules in &lt=
=3Bxref target=3D"syntax"/&gt=3B and &lt=3Bxref target=3D"sources"/&gt=3B a=
nd<BR>canonicalising it does not change it" <BR>
Mark's text clearly introduces the two types of canonicalization=2C which y=
ou all seem to think you need to do.<BR>
)<BR>
<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>
Mark=92s suggested introductory text:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
"4.5.&nbsp=3B Canonicalization of Language Tags<BR>
&nbsp=3B Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processe=
s=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a c=
anonical<BR>&nbsp=3B form.<BR>
&nbsp=3B There are two canonical forms for language tags.&nbsp=3B The 'defa=
ult'<BR>&nbsp=3B canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred=
-Value.<BR>&nbsp=3B The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolanguag=
e primary<BR>&nbsp=3B language subtag before eligible (extended) language s=
ubtags."<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
However=2C Kent points out that=2C<BR>
"Mapping just the subtag will not do anything here (if we just consider the=
<BR>strings=2C ignoring the primary language vs. extlang classification). O=
ne<BR>needs to map the language tag prefix=2C up to and including the extla=
ng subtag<BR>in question=2C to the preferred value." <BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
So then=2C do we replace: <BR>
"each 'extlang' subtag" <BR>
with <BR>
"each subtag in the primary language-extension language combination" ???<BR=
>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Also=2C&nbsp=3BI want to clarify the implication of Kent=92s suggested chan=
ge to the steps in canonicalization going to affect the use of the term "ma=
crolanguage" in the above?(Kent's worried about sign language subtags that =
are extension language subtags but don't have a macrolanguage):<BR>
"5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form)=
=2C&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B a primary language subtag that is also registered as an=
 'extlang' subtag&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B is replaced by the corresponding language=
-extlang combination=2C where the<BR>
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for =
the extlang."<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Does the above mean that we need to say here:<BR>
"The =91extlang=92 canonical form includes the registered prefix for the ex=
tension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags"<BR>
???<BR>
(I noted that Kent did not like "extended canonical form" and acted accordi=
ngly.)<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
These changes would result in:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B "Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many process=
es=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a =
canonical<BR>&nbsp=3B form.<BR>
&nbsp=3B There are two canonical forms for language tags.&nbsp=3B The 'defa=
ult'<BR>&nbsp=3B canonical form maps each each subtag in the primary langua=
ge-extension language combination to its Preferred-Value.<BR>&nbsp=3B The '=
extended' canonical form includes the registered prefix for the extension l=
anguage before eligible (extlang) language subtags."<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
II.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I also find the following text useful:<BR>
&lt=3Bt&gt=3BNormally=2C the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. Howev=
er=2C the 'extlang' canonical form&nbsp=3B is useful<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in ma=
tching or selection (see &lt=3Bxref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"&gt=3B&lt=
=3B/xref&gt=3B).&lt=3B/t&gt=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
III.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
My goof on Addison=92s text (below)=97as Kent pointed out=2C Addison means =
that: =93mapping a subtag to its preferred value should occur before any ad=
ditional steps in canonicalization=94<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B"These mappings MUST be done before additional processing=2C since th=
ere can be additional changes to subtag values."&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3Bform(s)."<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
But then would not Kent's suggested step 2&nbsp=3B (below) become step 1? b=
ut otherwise everything follows mapping:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3BCanonicalisation of a well-formed [or well-defined=2C see comment abo=
ve]<BR>
&gt=3Blanguage tag is defined by doing the following steps=2C in order=2C u=
sing data<BR>
&gt=3Bfrom the current IANA language subtag registry (&lt=3Bxref<BR>
&gt=3Btarget=3D"ianaformat"/&gt=3B).<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-insensitive A=
SCII<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B order by the singleton subtags. (At the time of publ=
ication of this<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B document=2C there were no extension subtags register=
ed.)<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B2. A redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field =
in<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the IANA registry is replaced with its preferred val=
ue.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B 3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in the IANA=
<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B registry is replaced with its preferred value.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B 4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is replaced by the<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B preferred value registered for the extlang.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B 5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical=
 form)=2C<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B a primary language subtag that is also registered as=
 an 'extlang' subtag<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang co=
mbination=2C where the<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B primary language subtag here is the Prefix registere=
d for the extlang.<BR>
<BR>(NOTE: Hope my suggestions make some sense.&nbsp=3B Sorry if I'm not ke=
eping up with the discussion on this&nbsp=3B(the postings online aren't qui=
te up-to-date???)<BR><BR>
--C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR></bod=
y>
</html>=

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From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
To: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>, <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Den 2009-05-02 16.28, skrev "CE Whitehead" <cewcathar@hotmail.com>:

> Hi!
> =20
> I. =20
> I still think Mark=B9s text reads more clearly than other possible introduc=
tory
> text and that it is the text to start with in the introduction to
> canonicalization . . . I can't do anything with:
> "A language tag is in canonical form, either default canonical form or
> extlang canonical form, when the tag is well-formed according to the
> rules in <xref target=3D"syntax"/> and <xref target=3D"sources"/> and
> canonicalising it does not change it"
> Mark's text clearly introduces the two types of canonicalization, which y=
ou
> all seem to think you need to do.
> )

Part of my suggestion was to *first* have the definition, then say somethin=
g
about recommended use.
> =20
> Mark=B9s suggested introductory text:
> =20
> "4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>   Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
>   language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
>   form.
>   There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
>   canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred-Value.
>   The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolanguage primary
>   language subtag before eligible (extended) language subtags."
> =20
> =20
> However, Kent points out that,
> "Mapping just the subtag will not do anything here (if we just consider t=
he
> strings, ignoring the primary language vs. extlang classification). One
> needs to map the language tag prefix, up to and including the extlang sub=
tag
> in question, to the preferred value."
> =20
> So then, do we replace:
> "each 'extlang' subtag"
> with=20
> "each subtag in the primary language-extension language combination" ???
> =20
> Also, I want to clarify the implication of Kent=B9s suggested change to the
> steps in canonicalization going to affect the use of the term "macrolangu=
age"
> in the above?(Kent's worried about sign language subtags that are extensi=
on
> language subtags but don't have a macrolanguage):
> "5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical for=
m),
> a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag =
  is
> replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination, where the
>    primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang.=
"
> =20
> Does the above mean that we need to say here:
> "The =8Cextlang=B9 canonical form includes the registered prefix for the exte=
nsion
> language before eligible (extlang) language subtags"
> ???
>=20
I think having step 5 saying that is sufficient, no need to duplicate that
statement.

> (I noted that Kent did not like "extended canonical form" and acted
> accordingly.)
> =20
> These changes would result in:
> =20
>   "Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
>   language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
>   form.
>   There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
>   canonical form maps each each subtag in the primary language-extension
> language combination to its Preferred-Value.
>   The 'extended' canonical form includes the registered prefix for the
> extension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags."
> =20
> II.
> =20
> I also find the following text useful:
> <t>Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. However, the
> 'extlang' canonical form  is useful
> =20
> in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in
> matching or selection (see <xref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).</t=
>
=20
Saying "macrolanguage" here is not exactly correct.  Otherwise text like
that can go after the definition of the normal forms.

> III.
> =20
> My goof on Addison=B9s text (below)=8Bas Kent pointed out, Addison means that=
:
> =B3mapping a subtag to its preferred value should occur before any addition=
al
> steps in canonicalization=B2
> =20
>> >"These mappings MUST be done before additional processing, since there =
can
>> be additional changes to subtag values."
>> >form(s)."
> =20
> But then would not Kent's suggested step 2  (below) become step 1? but
> otherwise everything follows mapping:
=20
The ordering does not matter for all steps. But I suggest having one order
that is correct (of course), makes some kind of logical grouping, and have
the optional part last. And then say "in order" without making a great fuss
using "MUST". Also: have the steps as clean as possible, moving all
examples, explanations, text on usage, to after the definition of the
canonical forms rather than bog down the steps in the (algorithmic)
definition with such text.

    /kent k


>> >Canonicalisation of a well-formed [or well-defined, see comment above]
>> >language tag is defined by doing the following steps, in order, using d=
ata
>> >from the current IANA language subtag registry (<xref
>> >target=3D"ianaformat"/>).
> =20
>> >1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-insensitive ASC=
II
>> >   order by the singleton subtags. (At the time of publication of this
>> >   document, there were no extension subtags registered.)
> =20
>> >2. A redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field in
>> >   the IANA registry is replaced with its preferred value.
> =20
>> > 3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in the IANA
>> >   registry is replaced with its preferred value.
> =20
>> > 4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is replaced by the
>> >   preferred value registered for the extlang.
> =20
>> > 5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical f=
orm),
>> >   a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' su=
btag
>> >   is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination, where=
 the
>> >   primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlan=
g.
>=20
> (NOTE: Hope my suggestions make some sense.  Sorry if I'm not keeping up =
with
> the discussion on this (the postings online aren't quite up-to-date???)
>=20
> --C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlan=
g mapping</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'><BR>
Den 2009-05-02 16.28, skrev &quot;CE Whitehead&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"cewcathar=
@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a>&gt;:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Ar=
ial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>Hi!<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
I. &nbsp;<BR>
I still think Mark&#8217;s text reads more clearly than other possible intr=
oductory text and that it is the text to start with in the introduction to c=
anonicalization . . . I can't do anything with:<BR>
&quot;A language tag is in canonical form, either default canonical form or=
<BR>
extlang canonical form, when the tag is well-formed according to the<BR>
rules in &lt;xref target=3D&quot;syntax&quot;/&gt; and &lt;xref target=3D&quot;=
sources&quot;/&gt; and<BR>
canonicalising it does not change it&quot; <BR>
Mark's text clearly introduces the two types of canonicalization, which you=
 all seem to think you need to do.<BR>
)<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helve=
tica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#800000">Part of my suggestion was to *first* have the definit=
ion, then say something about recommended use.<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana,=
 Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'> <BR>
Mark&#8217;s suggested introductory text:<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&quot;4.5. &nbsp;Canonicalization of Language Tags<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many proce=
sses,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canoni=
cal<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;form.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;There are two canonical forms for language tags. &nbsp;The 'def=
ault'<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred-Valu=
e.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolanguage primar=
y<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;language subtag before eligible (extended) language subtags.&qu=
ot;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
However, Kent points out that,<BR>
&quot;Mapping just the subtag will not do anything here (if we just conside=
r the<BR>
strings, ignoring the primary language vs. extlang classification). One<BR>
needs to map the language tag prefix, up to and including the extlang subta=
g<BR>
in question, to the preferred value.&quot; <BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
So then, do we replace: <BR>
&quot;each 'extlang' subtag&quot; <BR>
with <BR>
&quot;each subtag in the primary language-extension language combination&qu=
ot; ???<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Also, I want to clarify the implication of Kent&#8217;s suggested change to=
 the steps in canonicalization going to affect the use of the term &quot;mac=
rolanguage&quot; in the above?(Kent's worried about sign language subtags th=
at are extension language subtags but don't have a macrolanguage):<BR>
&quot;5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical =
form), &nbsp;&nbsp;a primary language subtag that is also registered as an '=
extlang' subtag &nbsp;&nbsp;is replaced by the corresponding language-extlan=
g combination, where the<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for=
 the extlang.&quot;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
Does the above mean that we need to say here:<BR>
&quot;The &#8216;extlang&#8217; canonical form includes the registered pref=
ix for the extension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags&quo=
t;<BR>
???<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helve=
tica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><FONT COLOR=3D"#800000">I think havi=
ng step 5 saying that is sufficient, no need to duplicate that statement.<BR=
>
</FONT><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvet=
ica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>(I noted that Kent did not like &qu=
ot;extended canonical form&quot; and acted accordingly.)<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
These changes would result in:<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&quot;Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many=
 processes,<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canoni=
cal<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;form.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;There are two canonical forms for language tags. &nbsp;The 'def=
ault'<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;canonical form maps each each subtag in the primary language-ex=
tension language combination to its Preferred-Value.<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The 'extended' canonical form includes the registered prefix fo=
r the extension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags.&quot;<B=
R>
&nbsp;<BR>
II.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
I also find the following text useful:<BR>
&lt;t&gt;Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. However, th=
e 'extlang' canonical form &nbsp;is useful<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in ma=
tching or selection (see &lt;xref target=3D&quot;choiceUsingExtlang&quot;&gt;&=
lt;/xref&gt;).&lt;/t&gt;<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helve=
tica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'> <BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#800000">Saying &quot;macrolanguage&quot; here is not exactly =
correct. &nbsp;Otherwise text like that can go after the definition of the n=
ormal forms.<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvet=
ica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>III.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
My goof on Addison&#8217;s text (below)&#8212;as Kent pointed out, Addison =
means that: &#8220;mapping a subtag to its preferred value should occur befo=
re any additional steps in canonicalization&#8221;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt;&quot;These mappings MUST be done before additional processing, since t=
here can be additional changes to subtag values.&quot; <BR>
&gt;form(s).&quot;<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
But then would not Kent's suggested step 2 &nbsp;(below) become step 1? but=
 otherwise everything follows mapping:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helve=
tica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'> <BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#800000">The ordering does not matter for all steps. But I sug=
gest having one order that is correct (of course), makes some kind of logica=
l grouping, and have the optional part last. And then say &quot;in order&quo=
t; without making a great fuss using &quot;MUST&quot;. Also: have the steps =
as clean as possible, moving all examples, explanations, text on usage, to a=
fter the definition of the canonical forms rather than bog down the steps in=
 the (algorithmic) definition with such text.<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/kent k<BR>
<BR>
</FONT><BR>
</SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvet=
ica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>&gt;Canonicalisation of a well-form=
ed [or well-defined, see comment above]<BR>
&gt;language tag is defined by doing the following steps, in order, using d=
ata<BR>
&gt;from the current IANA language subtag registry (&lt;xref<BR>
&gt;target=3D&quot;ianaformat&quot;/&gt;).<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt;1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-insensitive ASC=
II<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;order by the singleton subtags. (At the time of publicatio=
n of this<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;document, there were no extension subtags registered.)<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt;2. A redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field in=
<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;the IANA registry is replaced with its preferred value.<BR=
>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; 3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in the IANA<B=
R>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;registry is replaced with its preferred value.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; 4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is replaced by the<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;preferred value registered for the extlang.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; 5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical f=
orm),<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'e=
xtlang' subtag<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combinat=
ion, where the<BR>
&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for =
the extlang.<BR>
<BR>
(NOTE: Hope my suggestions make some sense. &nbsp;Sorry if I'm not keeping =
up with the discussion on this (the postings online aren't quite up-to-date?=
??)<BR>
<BR>
--C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<a href=3D"cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a><BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"></SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:=
10pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier">__________________________=
_____________________<BR>
Ltru mailing list<BR>
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<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru">https://www.ietf.org/m=
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Hi!




Date: Sat=2C 2 May 2009 17:24:21 +0200
From: kent.karlsson14@comhem.se



> Den 2009-05-02 16.28=2C skrev "CE Whitehead" <cewcathar@hotmail.com>:


. . .
  =20
>>I still think Mark=92s text reads more clearly than other possible introd=
uctory text and that it is the text to start with >>in the introduction to =
canonicalization . . . I can't do anything with:
>>"A language tag is in canonical form=2C either default canonical form or
>>extlang canonical form=2C when the tag is well-formed according to the
>>rules in <xref target=3D"syntax"/> and <xref target=3D"sources"/> and
>>canonicalising it does not change it"=20
>>Mark's text clearly introduces the two types of canonicalization=2C which=
 you all seem to think you need to do.
>>)


> Part of my suggestion was to *first* have the definition=2C then say some=
thing about recommended use.
Yes=2C I know.
Mark's text gives a definition I think when he explains the two forms.  We =
can reorder it a bit but I like it.




>> Mark=92s suggested introductory text:
=20
>>. "4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
 >> Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes=2C
 >>language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
 >> form.
  There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
  canonical form maps each 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred-Value.
  The 'extended' canonical form includes the macrolanguage primary
  language subtag before eligible (extended) language subtags."
=20
=20
However=2C Kent points out that=2C
"Mapping just the subtag will not do anything here (if we just consider the
strings=2C ignoring the primary language vs. extlang classification). One
needs to map the language tag prefix=2C up to and including the extlang sub=
tag
in question=2C to the preferred value."=20
=20
So then=2C do we replace:=20
"each 'extlang' subtag"=20
with=20
"each subtag in the primary language-extension language combination" ???
=20
Also=2C I want to clarify the implication of Kent=92s suggested change to t=
he steps in canonicalization going to affect the use of the term "macrolang=
uage" in the above?(Kent's worried about sign language subtags that are ext=
ension language subtags but don't have a macrolanguage):
"5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form)=
=2C   a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' sub=
tag   is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination=2C wher=
e the
   primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang."
=20
Does the above mean that we need to say here:
"The =91extlang=92 canonical form includes the registered prefix for the ex=
tension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags"
???

> I think having step 5 saying that is sufficient=2C no need to duplicate t=
hat statement.
Hmm  I was just trying to be consistent as far as vocabulary goes.



=20
These changes would result in:
=20
  "Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes=2C
  language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
  form.
  There are two canonical forms for language tags.  The 'default'
  canonical form maps each each subtag in the primary language-extension la=
nguage combination to its Preferred-Value.
  The 'extended' canonical form includes the registered prefix for the exte=
nsion language before eligible (extlang) language subtags."
=20
. . .
=20
I also find the following text useful:
<t>Normally=2C the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. However=2C the =
'extlang' canonical form  is useful
=20
in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in ma=
tching or selection (see <xref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).</t>



> Saying "macrolanguage" here is not exactly correct. =20
Sorry=2C my goof!
> Otherwise text like that can go after the definition of the normal forms.
That makes me happy.
. . .=20
=20
>>. . . as Kent pointed out=2C Addison means that: =93mapping a subtag to i=
ts preferred value should occur before any additional >>steps in canonicali=
zation=94
=20
>>"These mappings MUST be done before additional processing=2C since there =
can be additional changes to subtag values."=20
>>form(s)."
=20
>>But then would not Kent's suggested step 2  (below) become step 1? but ot=
herwise everything follows mapping:


> The ordering does not matter for all steps. But I suggest having one orde=
r that is correct (of course)=2C makes some kind of=20
> logical grouping=2C and have the optional part last. And then say "in ord=
er" without making a great fuss using "MUST". Also: have > the steps as cle=
an as possible=2C moving all examples=2C explanations=2C text on usage=2C t=
o after the definition of the canonical forms=20
> rather than bog down the steps in the (algorithmic) definition with such =
text.

    /kent k
O.k. maybe we could specify what the mapping to the preferred value should =
precede.  Grandfathered tags have to be mapped before other tags.  And=2C i=
n the case that the extlang canonical form is desired=2C the mapping has to=
 be done before the primary language subtag is replaced by the correspondin=
g language-extension-language combination.=20
=20
Best=2C
=20
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com


=20

>Canonicalisation of a well-formed [or well-defined=2C see comment above]
>language tag is defined by doing the following steps=2C in order=2C using =
data
>from the current IANA language subtag registry (<xref
>target=3D"ianaformat"/>).
=20
>1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII
>   order by the singleton subtags. (At the time of publication of this
>   document=2C there were no extension subtags registered.)
=20
>2. A redundant or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field in
>   the IANA registry is replaced with its preferred value.
=20
> 3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in the IANA
>   registry is replaced with its preferred value.
=20
> 4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is replaced by the
>   preferred value registered for the extlang.
=20
> 5. For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form=
)=2C
>   a primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subta=
g
>   is replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination=2C where =
the
>   primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang.








 =

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}
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{
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<BR>Hi!<BR>
<BR><BR><BR>Date: Sat=2C 2 May 2009 17:24:21 +0200<BR>From: kent.karlsson14=
@comhem.se<BR><BR><BR><FONT face=3D"Calibri=2C Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Aria=
l"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR>&gt=3B Den 2009-05-02 16.28=2C skrev=
 "CE Whitehead" &lt=3B<A href=3D"http://hotmail.com/">cewcathar@hotmail.com=
</A>&gt=3B:</SPAN></FONT><BR><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR><BR></SPAN=
><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D=
"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT face=3DCalibri>. . .</FONT><BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbs=
p=3B<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3BI still think Mark=92s text reads more clearly than oth=
er possible introductory text and that it is the text to start with &gt=3B&=
gt=3Bin the introduction to canonicalization . . . I can't do anything with=
:<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B"A language tag is in canonical form=2C either default can=
onical form or<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3Bextlang canonical form=2C when the tag is wel=
l-formed according to the<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3Brules in &lt=3Bxref target=3D"synt=
ax"/&gt=3B and &lt=3Bxref target=3D"sources"/&gt=3B and<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3Bcano=
nicalising it does not change it" <BR>&gt=3B&gt=3BMark's text clearly intro=
duces the two types of canonicalization=2C which you all seem to think you =
need to do.<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B)<BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FO=
NT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><=
BR><FONT color=3D#800000>&gt=3B Part of my suggestion was to *first* have t=
he definition=2C then say something about recommended use.</FONT><BR><FONT =
color=3D#1f497d>Yes=2C I know.</FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#800000><FONT color=
=3D#1f497d>Mark's text gives a definition I think when he explains the two =
forms.&nbsp=3B We can reorder it a bit but I like it.</FONT><BR><BR><BR></F=
ONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SP=
AN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B Mark=92s suggested introducto=
ry text:<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B. "4.5. &nbsp=3BCanonicalization of Lan=
guage Tags<BR>&nbsp=3B&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3BSince a particular language tag i=
s sometimes used by many processes=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B&gt=3B&gt=3Blanguage tags =
SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical<BR>&nbsp=3B&gt=3B&gt=
=3B&nbsp=3Bform.<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3BThere are two canonical forms for langu=
age tags. &nbsp=3BThe 'default'<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bcanonical form maps each=
 'extlang' subtag to its Preferred-Value.<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3BThe 'extended'=
 canonical form includes the macrolanguage primary<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Blangu=
age subtag before eligible (extended) language subtags."<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&nb=
sp=3B<BR>However=2C Kent points out that=2C<BR>"Mapping just the subtag wil=
l not do anything here (if we just consider the<BR>strings=2C ignoring the =
primary language vs. extlang classification). One<BR>needs to map the langu=
age tag prefix=2C up to and including the extlang subtag<BR>in question=2C =
to the preferred value." <BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>So then=2C do we replace: <BR>"eac=
h 'extlang' subtag" <BR>with <BR>"each subtag in the primary language-exten=
sion language combination" ???<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Also=2C I want to clarify the=
 implication of Kent=92s suggested change to the steps in canonicalization =
going to affect the use of the term "macrolanguage" in the above?(Kent's wo=
rried about sign language subtags that are extension language subtags but d=
on't have a macrolanguage):<BR>"5. For the extlang canonical form (but not =
for the default canonical form)=2C &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Ba primary language subta=
g that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bis replace=
d by the corresponding language-extlang combination=2C where the<BR>&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bprimary language subtag here is the Prefix registered fo=
r the extlang."<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Does the above mean that we need to say here=
:<BR>"The =91extlang=92 canonical form includes the registered prefix for t=
he extension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags"<BR>???<BR=
><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=
=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT color=3D#8000=
00>&gt=3B I think having step 5 saying that is sufficient=2C no need to dup=
licate that statement.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FON=
T color=3D#800000><FONT color=3D#1f497d>Hmm&nbsp=3B I was just trying to be=
 consistent as far as vocabulary goes.</FONT><BR></FONT><BR></SPAN></FONT><=
/FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SP=
AN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>These changes would result in:=
<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B"Since a particular language tag is sometim=
es used by many processes=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Blanguage tags SHOULD always=
 be created or generated in a canonical<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bform.<BR>&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3BThere are two canonical forms for language tags. &nbsp=3BThe 'de=
fault'<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bcanonical form maps each each subtag in the prima=
ry language-extension language combination to its Preferred-Value.<BR>&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3BThe 'extended' canonical form includes the registered prefix for=
 the extension language before eligible (extlang) language subtags."<BR>&nb=
sp=3B<BR>. . .<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>I also find the following text useful:<BR>&lt=
=3Bt&gt=3BNormally=2C the 'default' canonicalization is preferred. However=
=2C the 'extlang' canonical form &nbsp=3Bis useful<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>in enviro=
nments where the presence of the macrolanguage is beneficial in matching or=
 selection (see &lt=3Bxref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"&gt=3B&lt=3B/xref&g=
t=3B).&lt=3B/t&gt=3B<BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D=
2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10=
pt">
<P><BR><FONT color=3D#800000>&gt=3B Saying "macrolanguage" here is not exac=
tly correct.&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B</FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#1f497d>Sorry=2C my go=
of!</FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#800000>&gt=3B Otherwise text like that can go =
after the definition of the normal forms.<BR></FONT><FONT color=3D#1f497d>T=
hat makes me happy.</FONT><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3D2><FONT fac=
e=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">. . . <=
BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B. . . as Kent pointed out=2C Addison means that:=
 =93mapping a subtag to its preferred value should occur before any additio=
nal &gt=3B&gt=3Bsteps in canonicalization=94<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B"Th=
ese mappings MUST be done before additional processing=2C since there can b=
e additional changes to subtag values." <BR>&gt=3B&gt=3Bform(s)."<BR>&nbsp=
=3B<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3BBut then would not Kent's suggested step 2 &nbsp=3B(belo=
w) become step 1? but otherwise everything follows mapping:<BR></SPAN></FON=
T></FONT><BR><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><S=
PAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><FONT color=3D#800000>&gt=3B The ordering=
 does not matter for all steps. But I suggest having one order that is corr=
ect (of course)=2C makes some kind of </FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#800000>&gt=
=3B logical grouping=2C and have the optional part last. And then say "in o=
rder" without making a great fuss using "MUST". Also: have &gt=3B the steps=
 as clean as possible=2C moving all examples=2C explanations=2C text on usa=
ge=2C to after the definition of the canonical forms </FONT><BR><FONT color=
=3D#800000>&gt=3B rather than bog down the steps in the (algorithmic) defin=
ition with such text.<BR><BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B/kent k<BR></F=
ONT><FONT color=3D#1f497d>O.k. maybe we could specify what the mapping to t=
he preferred value should precede.&nbsp=3B Grandfathered tags have to be&nb=
sp=3Bmapped before other tags.&nbsp=3B And=2C in the case that&nbsp=3Bthe e=
xtlang canonical form is&nbsp=3Bdesired=2C&nbsp=3Bthe mapping has to be don=
e before the primary language subtag is replaced by the corresponding langu=
age-extension-language combination.&nbsp=3B</FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#1f497d=
></FONT>&nbsp=3B<BR><FONT color=3D#1f497d>Best=2C</FONT><BR><FONT color=3D#=
1f497d></FONT>&nbsp=3B<BR><FONT color=3D#1f497d>C. E. Whitehead</FONT><BR><=
FONT color=3D#1f497d><A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hot=
mail.com</A><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT><BR>
<FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT color=3D#1f497d></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT>&nbsp=3B=
<BR>
<FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Verdana=2C Helvetica=2C Arial"><SPAN style=3D"=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT color=3D#1f497d><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FON=
T color=3D#444444>&gt=3BCanonicalisation of a well-formed [or well-defined=
=2C see comment above]<BR>&gt=3Blanguage tag is defined by doing the follow=
ing steps=2C in order=2C using data<BR>&gt=3Bfrom the current IANA language=
 subtag registry (&lt=3Bxref<BR>&gt=3Btarget=3D"ianaformat"/&gt=3B).<BR>&nb=
sp=3B<BR>&gt=3B1. Extension sequences in the tag are ordered into case-inse=
nsitive ASCII<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Border by the singleton subtags. (At=
 the time of publication of this<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bdocument=2C ther=
e were no extension subtags registered.)<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B2. A redundan=
t or grandfathered tag that has a Preferred-Value field in<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3Bthe IANA registry is replaced with its preferred value.<BR>&nbsp=
=3B<BR>&gt=3B 3. A non-extlang subtag that has a Preferred-Value field in t=
he IANA<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bregistry is replaced with its preferred v=
alue.<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B 4. A tag prefix of the form language-extlang is=
 replaced by the<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bpreferred value registered for t=
he extlang.<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B 5. For the extlang canonical form (but no=
t for the default canonical form)=2C<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Ba primary la=
nguage subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag<BR>&gt=3B &nbs=
p=3B&nbsp=3Bis replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination=
=2C where the<BR>&gt=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3Bprimary language subtag here is the=
 Prefix registered for the extlang.</FONT><BR></SPAN><BR>
<BR></FONT><BR><BR><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT face=3D"Co=
nsolas=2C Courier New=2C Courier"><BR></FONT></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp=3B</BLOCKQ=
UOTE></body>
</html>=

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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*I started with Addison's formulation, and then tried to combine all the
suggestions that did not materially change the content; I also separated out
the examples and explanation into sub-bullets for to keep them from muddling
the main rules, but did not move them to a different point in the text just
to reduce the extent of the changes. I retained other cases of original text
or structure even where I felt Kent's to be somewhat better, also to reduce
changes.

I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what the
changes were. Please see:
*
http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization

Please let me know of any further suggestions.

Mark

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<font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=3D"2"><b><font size=3D"=
2"><span style=3D"font-weight: normal;">I started with Addison&#39;s
formulation, and then tried to combine all the suggestions that did not
materially change the content; I also separated out the examples and
explanation into sub-bullets for to keep them from muddling the main
rules, but did not move them to a different point in the text just to reduc=
e the extent of the changes. I retained other cases of original text or str=
ucture even where I felt Kent&#39;s to be somewhat better, also to reduce c=
hanges. <br>
<br>I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what th=
e changes were. Please see:<br></span></font></b></font><br><a href=3D"http=
://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization">http://si=
tes.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</a><br>
<br>Please let me know of any further suggestions.<br><br>Mark<br>

--001636e0b1594276910468f1d76d--

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From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
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So which is the intended extended canonical form for "swl", for instance?
According to my suggestion it would be "sgn-swl". But it is unclear
according to Mark's suggestion, as that case is not covered.

I still don't like the name "extended canonical form". How is it extended?
(It's not related to language tag extensions, though appear to be by name.)
"Extlang canonical form" is better, as this form uses the extlang feature.
 
    /kent k

Den 2009-05-02 20.10, skrev "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>:

> I started with Addison's formulation, and then tried to combine all the
> suggestions that did not materially change the content; I also separated out
> the examples and explanation into sub-bullets for to keep them from muddling
> the main rules, but did not move them to a different point in the text just to
> reduce the extent of the changes. I retained other cases of original text or
> structure even where I felt Kent's to be somewhat better, also to reduce
> changes. 
> 
> I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what the
> changes were. Please see:
> 
> http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization
> 
> Please let me know of any further suggestions.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlan=
g mapping</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'><BR>
So which is the intended extended canonical form for &quot;swl&quot;, for i=
nstance? According to my suggestion it would be &quot;sgn-swl&quot;. But it =
is unclear according to Mark's suggestion, as that case is not covered.<BR>
<BR>
I still don't like the name &quot;extended canonical form&quot;. How is it =
extended? (It's not related to language tag extensions, though appear to be =
by name.) &quot;Extlang canonical form&quot; is better, as this form uses th=
e extlang feature.<BR>
&nbsp;<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/kent k<BR>
<BR>
Den 2009-05-02 20.10, skrev &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mark@macchi=
ato.com">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;:<BR>
<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><=
B>I started with Addison's formulation, and then tried to combine all the su=
ggestions that did not materially change the content; I also separated out t=
he examples and explanation into sub-bullets for to keep them from muddling =
the main rules, but did not move them to a different point in the text just =
to reduce the extent of the changes. I retained other cases of original text=
 or structure even where I felt Kent's to be somewhat better, also to reduce=
 changes. <BR>
<BR>
I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what the ch=
anges were. Please see:<BR>
</B></FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
<a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalizati=
on">http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</a>=
<BR>
<BR>
Please let me know of any further suggestions.<BR>
<BR>
Mark<BR>
<BR>
<HR ALIGN=3DCENTER SIZE=3D"3" WIDTH=3D"95%"></FONT></SPAN><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FA=
CE=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>___________=
____________________________________<BR>
Ltru mailing list<BR>
<a href=3D"Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><BR>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/ltru</a><BR>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 13:31, Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>wrote:

>
> So which is the intended extended canonical form for "swl", for instance?
> According to my suggestion it would be "sgn-swl". But it is unclear
> according to Mark's suggestion, as that case is not covered.
>

Let's look at two examples, so that we can clarify the text. I marked the
only material difference between them below.

Type: language
Subtag: zh
Description: Chinese
Added: 2005-10-16
Scope: macrolanguage

Type: language
Subtag: sgn
Description: Sign languages
Added: 2005-10-16
Scope: collection

Type: extlang
Subtag: yue
Description: Yue Chinese
Added: 2029-09-09
Preferred-Value: yue
Prefix: zh
*Macrolanguage: zh* *// only material difference*

Type: extlang
Subtag: swl
Description: Swedish Sign Language
Added: 2029-09-09
Preferred-Value: swl
Prefix: sgn

We find that the primary language "yue" is also an extlang. Because it has a
Macrolanguage field 'zh', we change 'yue' to 'zh-yue'. In the second case,
the primary language "swl" is also an extlang, but it doesn't have a
Macrolanguage field, so it isn't replaced.

My language was:*

* In the 'extended' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary
language subtags that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are replaced
by their macrolanguage-extlang combinations.

This is the same as Addison's, although I added a qualifying note from your
text: "In the 'extended' canonical form, primary language subtags with a
'Macrolanguage' field that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are
replaced by their macrolanguage-extlang combination."
* *
While I think the language is ok, especially in light of the immediately
following example, I reworded to:

In the 'extended' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary
language subtags are replaced by macrolanguage-extlang combinations if they
are also 'extlang' subtags with a Macrolanguage field.

*I also fixed the example following this text.*

You had suggested:
For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form), a
primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag is
replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination, where the
primary language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang.

Your language doesn't correctly distinguish these two cases, which are only
different because of the Macrolanguage field in the extlang record, NOT
whether or not there is a Prefix (which both of them have). However, due to
your raising this issue, I think the text is now better.


> I still don't like the name "extended canonical form". How is it extended?
> (It's not related to language tag extensions, though appear to be by name.)
> "Extlang canonical form" is better, as this form uses the extlang feature.
>

I'm fine with "extlang canonical form", I agree that it is clearer. I'll go
ahead and make that change in my proposed copy, but I can revert if anyone
has a better suggestion.


>
>
>     /kent k
>
> Den 2009-05-02 20.10, skrev "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>:
>
> *I started with Addison's formulation, and then tried to combine all the
> suggestions that did not materially change the content; I also separated out
> the examples and explanation into sub-bullets for to keep them from muddling
> the main rules, but did not move them to a different point in the text just
> to reduce the extent of the changes. I retained other cases of original text
> or structure even where I felt Kent's to be somewhat better, also to reduce
> changes.
>
> I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what the
> changes were. Please see:
> *
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization
>
> Please let me know of any further suggestions.
>
> Mark
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

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<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 13:31, Kent Karlsson =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se" target=
=3D"_blank">kent.karlsson14@comhem.se</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); m=
argin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">





<div>
<font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt;"><br>
So which is the intended extended canonical form for &quot;swl&quot;, for i=
nstance? According to my suggestion it would be &quot;sgn-swl&quot;. But it=
 is unclear according to Mark&#39;s suggestion, as that case is not covered=
.</span></font></div>
</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-s=
erif;" size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">Let&#39;s look at two examples, so that =
we can clarify the text. I marked the only material difference between them=
 below.<br>
<br></font></font><pre class=3D"newpage">Type: language<br>Subtag: zh<br>De=
scription: Chinese<br>Added: 2005-10-16<br>Scope: macrolanguage<br><br>Type=
: language<br>Subtag: sgn<br>Description: Sign languages<br>Added: 2005-10-=
16<br>
Scope: collection<br></pre><pre>Type: extlang<br>Subtag: yue<br>Description=
: Yue Chinese<br>Added: 2029-09-09<br>Preferred-Value: yue<br>Prefix: zh<br=
><b>Macrolanguage: zh</b> <b>// only material difference</b><br><br>Type: e=
xtlang<br>
Subtag: swl<br>Description: Swedish Sign Language<br>Added: 2029-09-09<br>P=
referred-Value: swl<br>Prefix: sgn<br></pre>We find that the primary langua=
ge &quot;yue&quot; is also an extlang. Because it has a Macrolanguage field=
 &#39;zh&#39;, we change &#39;yue&#39; to &#39;zh-yue&#39;. In the second c=
ase, the primary language &quot;swl&quot; is also an extlang, but it doesn&=
#39;t have a Macrolanguage field, so it isn&#39;t replaced.<br>
<br>My language was:<font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=3D"=
2"><b><br>
<br>
</b></font>
<div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-se=
rif;" size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">In the &#39;extended&#39; canonical form =
(but not the
&#39;default&#39; form), primary language subtags that are also registered =
as
&#39;extlang&#39; subtags are replaced by their macrolanguage-extlang
combinations.</font></font><br><br>This is the same as Addison&#39;s, altho=
ugh I added a qualifying note from your text: <span style=3D"font-size: 11p=
t; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">&quot;In the &#39;extended&#39; canonical form=
, primary language
subtags with a &#39;Macrolanguage&#39; field that are also registered as &#=
39;extlang&#39;
subtags are replaced by their macrolanguage-extlang combination.&quot;</spa=
n>
</div>
<font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=3D"2"><b><font size=3D"=
2">
</font></b></font><br><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=
=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">While I think the language is ok, especially in lig=
ht of the immediately following example, I reworded to:<br></font></font><b=
r>
<div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;"><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-se=
rif;" size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2">In the &#39;extended&#39; canonical form =
(but not the
&#39;default&#39; form), primary language subtags are replaced by macrolang=
uage-extlang
combinations if they are</font><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif=
;" size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2"> also &#39;extlang&#39; subtags with a Macro=
language field.<br><br><i>I also fixed the example following this text.</i>=
<br>
</font></font></font></div><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif;" s=
ize=3D"2"><font size=3D"2"><br>You had suggested: </font></font><br><div st=
yle=3D"margin-left: 40px;">For the extlang canonical form (but not for the =
default canonical form), a primary language subtag that is also registered =
as an &#39;extlang&#39; subtag is replaced by the corresponding language-ex=
tlang combination, where the primary language subtag here is the Prefix reg=
istered for the extlang.<br>
<br></div>Your language doesn&#39;t correctly distinguish these two cases, =
which are only different because of the Macrolanguage field in the extlang =
record, NOT whether or not there is a Prefix (which both of them have). How=
ever, due to your raising this issue, I think the text is now better.<br>
<br> </div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px soli=
d rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-=
size: 11pt;"><br>

I still don&#39;t like the name &quot;extended canonical form&quot;. How is=
 it extended? (It&#39;s not related to language tag extensions, though appe=
ar to be by name.) &quot;Extlang canonical form&quot; is better, as this fo=
rm uses the extlang feature.</span></font></div>
</blockquote><div><br>I&#39;m fine with &quot;extlang canonical form&quot;,=
 I agree that it is clearer. I&#39;ll go ahead and make that change in my p=
roposed copy, but I can revert if anyone has a better suggestion.<br>=C2=A0=
<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><font =
face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;=
"><br>


=C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0/kent k<br>
<br>
Den 2009-05-02 20.10, skrev &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"http://ma=
rk@macchiato.com" target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<br>
</span></font><blockquote><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;"><div><div></div>=
<div><font face=3D"Arial"><b>I started with Addison&#39;s formulation, and =
then tried to combine all the suggestions that did not materially change th=
e content; I also separated out the examples and explanation into sub-bulle=
ts for to keep them from muddling the main rules, but did not move them to =
a different point in the text just to reduce the extent of the changes. I r=
etained other cases of original text or structure even where I felt Kent&#3=
9;s to be somewhat better, also to reduce changes. <br>


<br>
I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what the ch=
anges were. Please see:<br>
</b></font></div></div><font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><d=
iv><div></div><div><br>
<a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicaliza=
tion" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru=
-canonicalization</a><br>
<br>
Please let me know of any further suggestions.<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
</div></div><hr align=3D"center" size=3D"3" width=3D"95%"></font></span><di=
v><font size=3D"2"><font face=3D"Consolas, Courier New, Courier"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________<br>

Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"http://Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</span></font></font></div></blockquote>
</div>


</blockquote></div><br>

--00504502c3d20173f30468f5b939--

From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Sat May  2 16:20:11 2009
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Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 01:21:21 +0200
From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
Message-ID: <C622A211.BCF2%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Mark Davis wrote:
============
> My language was:
> 
> In the 'extended' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary
> language subtags that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are replaced by
> their macrolanguage-extlang combinations.
> 
> This is the same as Addison's, although I added a qualifying note from your
> text: "In the 'extended' canonical form, primary language subtags with a
> 'Macrolanguage' field that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are
> replaced by their macrolanguage-extlang combination."
> 
> While I think the language is ok, especially in light of the immediately
> following example, I reworded to:
> 
> In the 'extended' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary
> language subtags are replaced by macrolanguage-extlang combinations if they
> are also 'extlang' subtags with a Macrolanguage field.
> 
> I also fixed the example following this text.
> 
> You had suggested:
> For the extlang canonical form (but not for the default canonical form), a
> primary language subtag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag is
> replaced by the corresponding language-extlang combination, where the primary
> language subtag here is the Prefix registered for the extlang.
> 
> Your language doesn't correctly distinguish these two cases, which are only
> different because of the Macrolanguage field in the extlang record, NOT
> whether or not there is a Prefix (which both of them have). However, due to
> your raising this issue, I think the text is now better.
===========


Well, that was the point. I think the extlang canonical form for the sign
languages should be "sgn-zzz" for zzz as one of the sign language code. We
made sign languages extlangs despite that sgn is a collection code and not a
macrolanguage code, just because the exlang proponents wanted "sgn" at the
beginning of sign language language tags, did we not?

    /kent k


--B_3324158482_109060583
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	charset="US-ASCII"
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlan=
g mapping</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'>Mark Davis wrote:<BR>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><=
SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>My language was:<BR>
</SPAN></FONT><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Arial"><B><BR>
</B>In the 'extended' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary =
language subtags that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are replaced =
by their macrolanguage-extlang combinations.<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
This is the same as Addison's, although I added a qualifying note from your=
 text: &quot;In the 'extended' canonical form, primary language subtags with=
 a 'Macrolanguage' field that are also registered as 'extlang' subtags are r=
eplaced by their macrolanguage-extlang combination.&quot; <BR>
<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">While I think the language is ok, especially in l=
ight of the immediately following example, I reworded to:<BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Arial">In the 'extended' canonical form (but not the 'de=
fault' form), primary language subtags are replaced by macrolanguage-extlang=
 combinations if they are also 'extlang' subtags with a Macrolanguage field.=
<BR>
<BR>
<I>I also fixed the example following this text.<BR>
</I><BR>
You had suggested: <BR>
</FONT><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">For the extlang cano=
nical form (but not for the default canonical form), a primary language subt=
ag that is also registered as an 'extlang' subtag is replaced by the corresp=
onding language-extlang combination, where the primary language subtag here =
is the Prefix registered for the extlang.<BR>
<BR>
Your language doesn't correctly distinguish these two cases, which are only=
 different because of the Macrolanguage field in the extlang record, NOT whe=
ther or not there is a Prefix (which both of them have). However, due to you=
r raising this issue, I think the text is now better.<BR>
</FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'><FONT FACE=3D"Calibri=
, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
<BR>
<FONT COLOR=3D"#000080"><BR>
Well, that was the point. I think the extlang canonical form for the sign l=
anguages should be &quot;sgn-zzz&quot; for zzz as one of the sign language c=
ode. We made sign languages extlangs despite that sgn is a collection code a=
nd not a macrolanguage code, just because the exlang proponents wanted &quot=
;sgn&quot; at the beginning of sign language language tags, did we not?<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/kent k<BR>
</FONT></FONT></SPAN>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3324158482_109060583--



From doug@ewellic.org  Sat May  2 18:22:39 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:

> Well, that was the point. I think the extlang canonical form for the 
> sign languages should be "sgn-zzz" for zzz as one of the sign language 
> code. We made sign languages extlangs despite that sgn is a collection 
> code and not a macrolanguage code, just because the exlang proponents 
> wanted "sgn" at the beginning of sign language language tags, did we 
> not?

Kent is correct.  The Scope field attached to a primary language subtag 
reflects the ISO 639-3 assignment for that code element.  It is not 
intended to indicate whether there is a primary/extlang association. 
That is the role of the Prefix field attached to the extlang.

The canonicalization rules for "swl" versus "sgn-swl" are supposed to be 
exactly the same as those for "yue" versus "zh-yue".  Section 4.1.2 
affirms this.  Any change in wording that treats these two examples 
differently, or assigns them different canonicalization rules on the 
basis that "zh" is defined as a macrolanguage in ISO 639-3 and "sgn" is 
not, is a TECHNICAL change, and should be ruled out of scope for this 
post-WGLC, post-IETF LC period.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sat May  2 21:03:46 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5extlang mapping
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Hi -

As Co-chair...

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 11:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5extlang mapping
...
> I correlated this with the original (v21) text to make it clear what the
> changes were. Please see:
> *
> http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization
...

Since this discussion is not particularly easy to follow, and in
the interest of keeping a historical record of the actual text
being considered by the working group, please post the current
proposed text to the mailing list, too.

Randy


From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com  Sun May  3 02:42:09 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 18:22, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote:

> Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:
>
>  Well, that was the point. I think the extlang canonical form for the sig=
n
>> languages should be "sgn-zzz" for zzz as one of the sign language code. =
We
>> made sign languages extlangs despite that sgn is a collection code and n=
ot a
>> macrolanguage code, just because the exlang proponents wanted "sgn" at t=
he
>> beginning of sign language language tags, did we not?
>>
>
> Kent is correct.  The Scope field attached to a primary language subtag
> reflects the ISO 639-3 assignment for that code element.


If you look at my example, I was *not* talking about the Scope field. I
carefully marked what I was talking about, which was the Macrolanguage fiel=
d
in the extlang record, NOT the Scope field in the primary language subtag
record.

*Macrolanguage: zh* *// only material difference*


 It is not intended to indicate whether there is a primary/extlang
> association. That is the role of the Prefix field attached to the extlang=
.
>
> The canonicalization rules for "swl" versus "sgn-swl" are supposed to be
> exactly the same as those for "yue" versus "zh-yue".  Section 4.1.2 affir=
ms
> this.


This was not trying to make any material change; I'd actually thought that
that we had not wanted to add 'sgn'. As I recall the discussion, while ther=
e
is some case to be made that falling back from yue to zh (with likely
content =3D cmn) may make sense, the fallback to an arbitrary other sign
language is probably completely bogus. 4.1.2 actually doesn't affirm that
one actively wants to add 'sgn' to, say, bqy.

And note that Addison used the same terminology "*macrolanguage-extlang"* -=
-
I had copied his language -- when the correct term would be "prefix-extlang=
"
according to your interpretation, since the prefix may not be a
macrolanguage. But if you both are convinced that we'd had a consensus to
add 'sgn', I have no interest in even looking back at old emails to verify.
I don't care either way about 'sgn'; I was just trying to supply explicit
language for how to deal with adding the macrolanguage. (You are rather
eager to assume a Conspiracy instead of a mistake.)

Because this is the first time the *addition* of primary language subtags
has really been clearly stated, it only now that we are seeing that people
could misinterpret the text, so I'm glad we are having this discussion.

My proposed text on
http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization has
been modified to be:

*4. In the 'extlang' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary
language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the
extlang's Prefix.**

   - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak'=
,
   which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese).
The 'extlang'
   canonical form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China)

*If you have any other suggestions for making this clearer, let me know.


>  Any change in wording that treats these two examples differently, or
> assigns them different canonicalization rules on the basis that "zh" is
> defined as a macrolanguage in ISO 639-3 and "sgn" is not, is a TECHNICAL
> change, and should be ruled out of scope for this post-WGLC, post-IETF LC
> period.


>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =CB=86
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, May 2, 2009 at 18:22, Doug Ewell <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:doug@ewellic.org">doug@ewellic.org</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-lef=
t: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1=
ex;">
<div class=3D"im">Kent Karlsson &lt;kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se&gt=
; wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Well, that was the point. I think the extlang canonical form for the sign l=
anguages should be &quot;sgn-zzz&quot; for zzz as one of the sign language =
code. We made sign languages extlangs despite that sgn is a collection code=
 and not a macrolanguage code, just because the exlang proponents wanted &q=
uot;sgn&quot; at the beginning of sign language language tags, did we not?<=
br>

</blockquote>
<br></div>
Kent is correct. =C2=A0The Scope field attached to a primary language subta=
g reflects the ISO 639-3 assignment for that code element. </blockquote><di=
v><br>If you look at my example, I was *not* talking about the Scope field.=
 I carefully marked what I was talking about, which was the Macrolanguage f=
ield in the extlang record, NOT the Scope field in the primary language sub=
tag record.<br>
<pre><b>Macrolanguage: zh</b> <b>// only material difference</b><br></pre><=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">=C2=A0It=
 is not intended to indicate whether there is a primary/extlang association=
. That is the role of the Prefix field attached to the extlang.<br>

<br>
The canonicalization rules for &quot;swl&quot; versus &quot;sgn-swl&quot; a=
re supposed to be exactly the same as those for &quot;yue&quot; versus &quo=
t;zh-yue&quot;. =C2=A0Section 4.1.2 affirms this.</blockquote><div><br>This=
 was not trying to make any material change; I&#39;d actually thought that =
that we had not wanted to add &#39;sgn&#39;. As I recall the discussion, wh=
ile there is some case to be made that falling back from yue to zh (with li=
kely content =3D cmn) may make sense, the fallback to an arbitrary other si=
gn language is probably completely bogus. 4.1.2 actually doesn&#39;t affirm=
 that one actively wants to add &#39;sgn&#39; to, say, bqy.<br>
<br>And note that Addison used the same terminology &quot;<font style=3D"fo=
nt-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=3D"2"><b><font size=3D"2">macrolanguage-=
extlang&quot;</font></b></font>
-- I had copied his language -- when the correct term
would be &quot;prefix-extlang&quot; according to your interpretation, since=
 the prefix may not be a macrolanguage. But if you both are convinced that =
we&#39;d had a consensus to add &#39;sgn&#39;, I have no interest in even l=
ooking back at old emails to verify. I don&#39;t care either way about &#39=
;sgn&#39;; I was just trying to supply explicit language for how to deal wi=
th adding the macrolanguage. (You are rather eager to assume a Conspiracy i=
nstead of a mistake.)<br>
<br>Because this is the first time the *addition* of primary language subta=
gs has really been clearly stated, it only now that we are seeing that peop=
le could misinterpret the text, so I&#39;m glad we are having this discussi=
on.<br>
<br>My proposed text on <a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/u=
nicode/ltru-canonicalization">http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicod=
e/ltru-canonicalization</a> has been modified to be:<br><br><font style=3D"=
font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=3D"2"><b>4. <font size=3D"2">In the &#=
39;extlang&#39; canonical form (but not the
&#39;default&#39; form), primary language subtags that are also </font><fon=
t size=3D"2">extlang subtags </font><font size=3D"2">are prepended with the=
 extlang&#39;s Prefix.</font></b></font><b><ul><li><font size=3D"2">For exa=
mple, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag &#39;ha=
k&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a</font><font si=
ze=3D"2"> Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese)</font><font size=3D"2">. The </font=
><font style=3D"font-family: arial,sans-serif;" size=3D"2"><font size=3D"2"=
>&#39;extlang&#39; canonical form</font></font><font size=3D"2"> would be &=
quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China)</font></li>
</ul></b>If you have any other suggestions for making this clearer, let me =
know.<br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left=
: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1e=
x;"> =C2=A0Any change in wording that treats these two examples differently=
, or assigns them different canonicalization rules on the basis that &quot;=
zh&quot; is defined as a macrolanguage in ISO 639-3 and &quot;sgn&quot; is =
not, is a TECHNICAL change, and should be ruled out of scope for this post-=
WGLC, post-IETF LC period.</blockquote>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"im"=
><br>
<br>
--<br>
Doug Ewell =C2=A0* =C2=A0Thornton, Colorado, USA =C2=A0* =C2=A0RFC 4645 =C2=
=A0* =C2=A0UTN #14<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ewellic.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ewellic.org=
</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html" target=3D"=
_blank">http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a> =
=C2=A0=CB=86 <br>
_______________________________________________<br></div><div><div></div><d=
iv class=3D"h5">
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd2de462452220468fede47--

From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May  3 08:51:52 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Mark Davis wrote:

> If you look at my example, I was *not* talking about the Scope field. 
> I carefully marked what I was talking about, which was the 
> Macrolanguage field in the extlang record, NOT the Scope field in the 
> primary language subtag record.
>
> Macrolanguage: zh // only material difference

You are right and I apologize for the confusion.  You did suggest using 
the Macrolanguage field on the encompassed language, not the Scope field 
of the encompassing language, to determine whether extlang 
canonicalization would be used.

However, these two fields are supposed to exist in perfect balance with 
one another: for every language subtag A with "Scope: macrolanguage", 
there exist one or more language subtags B1 through Bn with 
"Macrolanguage: A".  Both the Macrolanguage (3.1.10) and Scope (3.1.11) 
fields reflect ISO 639-3 usage.  And in fact, the Registry includes 
dozens of ISO 639-3 macrolanguage/encompassed language relationships 
that have no bearing on BCP 47 extlang usage:

Type: language
Subtag: bal
Description: Baluchi
Added: 2005-10-16
Scope: macrolanguage
...
Type: language
Subtag: bcc
Description: Southern Balochi
Added: 2029-09-09
Macrolanguage: bal

As I wrote earlier, the Prefix field attached to an extlang record is 
the field that is supposed to indicate whether a primary/extlang 
relationship exists.  Actually, I suppose the Preferred-Value carries 
this meaning at least as well, if not more so, since it contains the 
primary language subtag that is "supposed" to be used instead if the 
goal is to canonicalize away extlangs.

Note that the sign language extlangs do have both a Prefix ("sgn") and a 
Preferred-Value, while the Southern Balochi example above has neither. 
That is because sign languages were intended to participate in THE 
extlang behavior while the Baluchi languages were not.  There were not 
two different sets of rules for extlang behavior, one for "sgn" and 
another for the "Big Six" (Arabic, Konkani, etc.) described in 
draft-4645bis, Section 2.2.  The only difference was that we were 
applying the one set of rules to sign languages even though ISO 639-3 
recognizes no macro/encompassed relationship (and in fact doesn't even 
include the code element "sgn").

> This was not trying to make any material change; I'd actually thought 
> that that we had not wanted to add 'sgn'. As I recall the discussion, 
> while there is some case to be made that falling back from yue to zh 
> (with likely content = cmn) may make sense, the fallback to an 
> arbitrary other sign language is probably completely bogus. 4.1.2 
> actually doesn't affirm that one actively wants to add 'sgn' to, say, 
> bqy.

I think it is fair to say that attempting to fall back from one sign 
language to another is risky behavior.  The last paragraph of 4.1.2 
explains, I think adequately, why sign languages in "sgn" were included 
to be representable with either primary language subtags or extlangs. 
The combination of primary and extended language subtags denotes a 
relationship between the subtags; it is not only for Web browser 
fallback.

> And note that Addison used the same terminology 
> "macrolanguage-extlang" -- I had copied his language -- when the 
> correct term would be "prefix-extlang" according to your 
> interpretation, since the prefix may not be a macrolanguage.

That is correct.

> But if you both are convinced that we'd had a consensus to add 'sgn', 
> I have no interest in even looking back at old emails to verify. I 
> don't care either way about 'sgn'; I was just trying to supply 
> explicit language for how to deal with adding the macrolanguage.

Wording that clarifies might be helpful, but I agree with Randy that we 
are engaging in an awful lot of textual revision when the AD's original 
question was simply to clarify a SHOULD.  The more text we revise, the 
greater the chance of slipping away from the intent of the WG, whether 
deliberately or accidentally.

> (You are rather eager to assume a Conspiracy instead of a mistake.)

I am in this case.  We had a delicately brokered truce, and I don't want 
to see it touched on either side of the table.  (Notice that I haven't 
proposed any text to remove the SHOULD from the no-extlang form, even 
though I wanted that.)  I understand that your studies showed that 
search engines, such as Google, did not work with extlangs as well as 
anticipated.  There were other use cases for language tags besides Web 
searches, in which extlangs provided more benefit.

> Because this is the first time the *addition* of primary language 
> subtags has really been clearly stated, it only now that we are seeing 
> that people could misinterpret the text, so I'm glad we are having 
> this discussion.

That is a good point.

> My proposed text on 
> http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization 
> has been modified to be:
>
> 4. In the 'extlang' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), 
> primary language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended 
> with the extlang's Prefix.
> For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 
> 'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' 
> (Chinese). The 'extlang' canonical form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, 
> Hakka, China)
> If you have any other suggestions for making this clearer, let me 
> know.

I think that should be fine.  But we have revised so much text here that 
a full regression text of the section is probably necessary, which I 
find unfortunate at this stage.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com  Sun May  3 17:14:44 2009
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From: Mark Davis <mark.davis@icu-project.org>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e0adeb69e33904690b10fe
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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--001636e0adeb69e33904690b10fe
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

...
>
>
>
>  My proposed text on
>> http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization has
>> been modified to be:
>>
>> 4. In the 'extlang' canonical form (but not the 'default' form), primary
>> language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the
>> extlang's Prefix.
>> For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak',
>> which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). The
>> 'extlang' canonical form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China)
>> If you have any other suggestions for making this clearer, let me know.
>>
>
> I think that should be fine.  But we have revised so much text here that a
> full regression text of the section is probably necessary, which I find
> unfortunate at this stage.


I'm not sure what you mean by a "full regression text". Do you mean full
replacement of the text, or something different?

I'm not particularly pleased by this level of change either, but it has
become clear that the previous text was not actually coherent (usually a bad
thing in a spec ;-). We have striven to have no material impact, so if the
WG can look over the proposed text and assent to it, I'm hoping that we can
move on.

...

--001636e0adeb69e33904690b10fe
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

...<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
My proposed text on <a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/macchiato/unico=
de/ltru-canonicalization" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/ma=
cchiato/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</a> has been modified to be:<br>
<br>
4. In the &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form (but not the &#39;default&#39; f=
orm), primary language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended =
with the extlang&#39;s Prefix.<br>
For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag =
&#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a Prefix =
&#39;zh&#39; (Chinese). The &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form would be &quot=
;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China)<br>

If you have any other suggestions for making this clearer, let me know.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
I think that should be fine. =C2=A0But we have revised so much text here th=
at a full regression text of the section is probably necessary, which I fin=
d unfortunate at this stage.</blockquote><div><br>I&#39;m not sure what you=
 mean by a &quot;full regression text&quot;. Do you mean full replacement o=
f the text, or something different?<br>
<br>I&#39;m not particularly pleased by this level of change either, but it=
 has become clear that the previous text was not actually coherent (usually=
 a bad thing in a spec ;-). We have striven to have no material impact, so =
if the WG can look over the proposed text and assent to it, I&#39;m hoping =
that we can move on.<br>
<br>...<br></div></div><br>

--001636e0adeb69e33904690b10fe--

From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May  3 20:13:24 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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Mark Davis wrote:

> I'm not sure what you mean by a "full regression text". Do you mean 
> full replacement of the text, or something different?

Sorry, that was a typo for "full regression test."  What I meant was 
that we would have to go back through the entire section and check it 
all over again for accuracy, not just the parts we thought were changed, 
because the changes are so extensive.

> I'm not particularly pleased by this level of change either, but it 
> has become clear that the previous text was not actually coherent 
> (usually a bad thing in a spec ;-). We have striven to have no 
> material impact, so if the WG can look over the proposed text and 
> assent to it, I'm hoping that we can move on.

As long as there is no change in the meaning intended by the WG, and as 
long as the cycle of reading the text and finding new ways to improve it 
eventually comes to an end, I agree that this is a good thing.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From gerard.lang@insee.fr  Mon May  4 00:57:56 2009
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Dear All,

" registration authority for ISO 3166" does not exist" !
In fact, we are "ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency", also known as "ISO =
3166/MA".
Bien cordialement.
G=E9rard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
ltru-request@ietf.org
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 1 mai 2009 06:04
=C0 : ltru@ietf.org
Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42

If you have received this digest without all the individual message =
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in	4.5extlang
      mapping (Randy Presuhn)
   2. Issue summary (Randy Presuhn)
   3. Re: Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
      vs.UNM.49 (Randy Presuhn)
   4. Re: Issue summary (Phillips, Addison)
   5. Re: Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO	3166
      vs.UNM.49 (Phillips, Addison)
   6. Re: Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value (Randy Presuhn)
   7. Re: Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value (Phillips, Addison)
   8. Re: It MUST and SHALL be preserved (Randy Presuhn)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:31:12 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in
	4.5extlang mapping
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <01e301c9c9da$fcba6fa0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"utf-8"

Hi -

As co-chair...

I'm concerned about the amount of textual change proposed in resultion =
of this item.  Without prejudicing the merits of these changes, we =
should recall that the AD's comment merely asked for an explanation of =
the "SHOULD".  I'm reluctant to declare consensus on a change this =
extensive without hearing from more working group participants, =
particularly since this was such a hotly contested portion of the =
specification.

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:45 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Ltru] Issue summary
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <01f301c9c9dc$52371720$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"utf-8"

Hi -

As co-chair...

The list of open ltru issues is available at
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/report/1

In brief:
#31  change titles of ISO docs
#36  AD #3 - rules for UN M.49 codes
#40  AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49
#41  AD #8 - section 3.5 SHOULD vs MUST
#43  AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value
#45  AD #12 - reason for SHOULD in 4.5 (3) on extlang preferred value =
mappings

31 is open because I haven't seen confirmation that the edits are =
understood
36 is open waiting in case others would like to comment before closure =
40 has multiple proposals for text change
41 is open waiting in case there are proposals for additional =
clarification
43 has a proposal, but I'd like to hear from folks whether they think =
this
   constitutes a technical change, and whether it sufficiently addresses =
the
   AD comments
45 has an extensive proposal, but I'd like to hear from others in the WG
   since this touches on what were contentious issues

PLEASE respond to any of these on their respective threads!

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:44:24 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
	vs.UNM.49
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <020001c9c9dc$d4b6aee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"utf-8"

Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working=20
> Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:20 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166=20
> vs.UNM.49
...
> Here are the proposed texts:
...

I prefer "B".

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:41:46 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue summary
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID:
	<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FE34730@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

(as editor)

> 31 is open because I haven't seen confirmation that the edits are=20
> understood

I have requested that Doug send me his XML sources so that ours are =
identical. Since I used his private email address, I expect I may hear =
from him this evening or overnight.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:42:19 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO	3166
	vs.UNM.49
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID:
	<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FE34731@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

(as contributor)

I have no objection to B.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:44 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO
> 3166 vs.UNM.49
>=20
> Hi -
>=20
> As a technical contributor...
>=20
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
> Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:20 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO
> 3166 vs.UNM.49
> ...
> > Here are the proposed texts:
> ...
>=20
> I prefer "B".
>=20
> Randy
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:57:25 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <020b01c9c9de$a63fede0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:29 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
...
> Proposed resolution:
...
> <t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record.
> This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field=20
> whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record=20
> contains the approval date of the most recent change to the registry,=20
> making it possible to compare different versions of the registry.
>  The registry on the IANA website is
> the most current.   Versions with an older date than that one
> are not up-to-date.</t>
...

I think the real problem here is that this text (for section 3.1.2) is =
an imperfect re-cap of the detailed description in section 5.1.
Rathering than repeating or summarizing (with the risk of getting it =
wrong), might it be better to make a forward reference?=20
Proposed text:

<t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record.
This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field =
whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record contains =
a date (see 5.1) making it possible to easily recognize different =
versions of the registry.

I think this more directly addresses the AD comment.

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:02:38 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
	<ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID:
	<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FE34785@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"

(as contributor)

I agree with this proposed change.

(as editor)

I have inserted this version of the text.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf=20
> Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:57 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
>=20
> Hi -
>=20
> As a technical contributor...
>=20
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:29 PM
> > Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
> ...
> > Proposed resolution:
> ...
> > <t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date"
> record.
> > This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single
> field
> > whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record=20
> > contains the approval date of the most recent change to the
> registry,
> > making it possible to compare different versions of the registry.
> >  The registry on the IANA website is
> > the most current.   Versions with an older date than that one
> > are not up-to-date.</t>
> ...
>=20
> I think the real problem here is that this text (for section 3.1.2) is =

> an imperfect re-cap of the detailed description in section 5.1.
> Rathering than repeating or summarizing (with the risk of getting it=20
> wrong), might it be better to make a forward reference?
> Proposed text:
>=20
> <t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date"
> record.
> This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field=20
> whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record=20
> contains a date (see 5.1) making it possible to easily recognize=20
> different versions of the registry.
>=20
> I think this more directly addresses the AD comment.
>=20
> Randy
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:07:53 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] It MUST and SHALL be preserved
To: <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <003d01c9ca12$67a294a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Hi -

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:11 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] It MUST and SHALL be preserved
>
> Just to keep things simple, let's change all SHALLs to MUSTs.

As co chair: Let's not.  The two have exactly the same effect from and =
RFC 2119 point of view.  At this stage, we need to limit ourselves to =
addressing the AD review comments, stuff we agreed earlier to address =
(references), and show-stopper bugs that happen to pop up.

Randy (who is known to be somewhat humor-impaired, in case this was =
meant in jest.)



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


End of Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
************************************

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5 extlang mapping
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--000e0cd18264105a820469172f16
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Mark


On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 20:14, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> wrote:

> Mark Davis wrote:
>
>  I'm not sure what you mean by a "full regression text". Do you mean full
>> replacement of the text, or something different?
>>
>
> Sorry, that was a typo for "full regression test."  What I meant was that
> we would have to go back through the entire section and check it all over
> again for accuracy, not just the parts we thought were changed, because t=
he
> changes are so extensive.
>
>  I'm not particularly pleased by this level of change either, but it has
>> become clear that the previous text was not actually coherent (usually a=
 bad
>> thing in a spec ;-). We have striven to have no material impact, so if t=
he
>> WG can look over the proposed text and assent to it, I'm hoping that we =
can
>> move on.
>>
>
> As long as there is no change in the meaning intended by the WG, and as
> long as the cycle of reading the text and finding new ways to improve it
> eventually comes to an end, I agree that this is a good thing.


Good. By the way, those of in on this Nefarious Scheme do try to follow the
rules of http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html ;-)


>
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =CB=86
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--000e0cd18264105a820469172f16
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<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, May 3, 2009 at 20:14, Doug Ewell=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:doug@ewellic.org">doug@ewellic.org=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border=
-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">Mark Davis wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I&#39;m not sure what you mean by a &quot;full regression text&quot;. Do yo=
u mean full replacement of the text, or something different?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Sorry, that was a typo for &quot;full regression test.&quot; =C2=A0What I m=
eant was that we would have to go back through the entire section and check=
 it all over again for accuracy, not just the parts we thought were changed=
, because the changes are so extensive.<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I&#39;m not particularly pleased by this level of change either, but it has=
 become clear that the previous text was not actually coherent (usually a b=
ad thing in a spec ;-). We have striven to have no material impact, so if t=
he WG can look over the proposed text and assent to it, I&#39;m hoping that=
 we can move on.<br>

</blockquote>
<br></div>
As long as there is no change in the meaning intended by the WG, and as lon=
g as the cycle of reading the text and finding new ways to improve it event=
ually comes to an end, I agree that this is a good thing.</blockquote>
<div><br>Good. By the way, those of in on this Nefarious Scheme do try to f=
ollow the rules of <a href=3D"http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.ht=
ml">http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html</a> ;-)<br>=C2=A0<br></=
div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><=
div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
--<br>
Doug Ewell =C2=A0* =C2=A0Thornton, Colorado, USA =C2=A0* =C2=A0RFC 4645 =C2=
=A0* =C2=A0UTN #14<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ewellic.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ewellic.org=
</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html" target=3D"=
_blank">http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</a> =
=C2=A0=CB=86<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd18264105a820469172f16--

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon May  4 12:27:44 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49  RE: Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
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Hi -

As co-chair:

PLEASE include the issue number in your subject line, if this is
intended to be a comment on proposed text for resolving an
existing issue.

If this is supposed to be a new issue, I will declare it "too late" unless it
can be demonstrated to cause interoperability problems.

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Lang Gérard" <gerard.lang@insee.fr>
To: <ltru@ietf.org>
Cc: "Lang Gérard" <gerard.lang@insee.fr>
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:58 AM
Subject: [Ltru] Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE: Ltru Digest, Vol 50,Issue 42


Dear All,

" registration authority for ISO 3166" does not exist" !
In fact, we are "ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency", also known as "ISO 3166/MA".
Bien cordialement.
Gérard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de ltru-request@ietf.org
Envoyé : vendredi 1 mai 2009 06:04
À : ltru@ietf.org
Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in 4.5extlang
      mapping (Randy Presuhn)
   2. Issue summary (Randy Presuhn)
   3. Re: Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
      vs.UNM.49 (Randy Presuhn)
   4. Re: Issue summary (Phillips, Addison)
   5. Re: Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
      vs.UNM.49 (Phillips, Addison)
   6. Re: Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value (Randy Presuhn)
   7. Re: Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value (Phillips, Addison)
   8. Re: It MUST and SHALL be preserved (Randy Presuhn)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:31:12 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: AD Issue #12: reason for SHOULD in
4.5extlang mapping
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <01e301c9c9da$fcba6fa0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi -

As co-chair...

I'm concerned about the amount of textual change proposed in resultion of this item.  Without prejudicing the merits of these
changes, we should recall that the AD's comment merely asked for an explanation of the "SHOULD".  I'm reluctant to declare consensus
on a change this extensive without hearing from more working group participants, particularly since this was such a hotly contested
portion of the specification.

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:40:45 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Ltru] Issue summary
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <01f301c9c9dc$52371720$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi -

As co-chair...

The list of open ltru issues is available at
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/report/1

In brief:
#31  change titles of ISO docs
#36  AD #3 - rules for UN M.49 codes
#40  AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49
#41  AD #8 - section 3.5 SHOULD vs MUST
#43  AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value
#45  AD #12 - reason for SHOULD in 4.5 (3) on extlang preferred value mappings

31 is open because I haven't seen confirmation that the edits are understood
36 is open waiting in case others would like to comment before closure 40 has multiple proposals for text change
41 is open waiting in case there are proposals for additional clarification
43 has a proposal, but I'd like to hear from folks whether they think this
   constitutes a technical change, and whether it sufficiently addresses the
   AD comments
45 has an extensive proposal, but I'd like to hear from others in the WG
   since this touches on what were contentious issues

PLEASE respond to any of these on their respective threads!

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:44:24 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
vs.UNM.49
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <020001c9c9dc$d4b6aee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
> Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:20 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
> vs.UNM.49
...
> Here are the proposed texts:
...

I prefer "B".

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:41:46 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue summary
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
<ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID:
<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FE34730@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

(as editor)

> 31 is open because I haven't seen confirmation that the edits are
> understood

I have requested that Doug send me his XML sources so that ours are identical. Since I used his private email address, I expect I
may hear from him this evening or overnight.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:42:19 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166
vs.UNM.49
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
<ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID:
<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FE34731@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

(as contributor)

I have no objection to B.

Addison

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:44 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO
> 3166 vs.UNM.49
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
> Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:20 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO
> 3166 vs.UNM.49
> ...
> > Here are the proposed texts:
> ...
>
> I prefer "B".
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:57:25 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <020b01c9c9de$a63fede0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:29 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
...
> Proposed resolution:
...
> <t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record.
> This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field
> whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record
> contains the approval date of the most recent change to the registry,
> making it possible to compare different versions of the registry.
>  The registry on the IANA website is
> the most current.   Versions with an older date than that one
> are not up-to-date.</t>
...

I think the real problem here is that this text (for section 3.1.2) is an imperfect re-cap of the detailed description in section
5.1.
Rathering than repeating or summarizing (with the risk of getting it wrong), might it be better to make a forward reference?
Proposed text:

<t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record.
This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record
contains a date (see 5.1) making it possible to easily recognize different versions of the registry.

I think this more directly addresses the AD comment.

Randy



------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:02:38 -0700
From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group
<ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID:
<4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FE34785@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

(as contributor)

I agree with this proposed change.

(as editor)

I have inserted this version of the text.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:57 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:29 PM
> > Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
> ...
> > Proposed resolution:
> ...
> > <t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date"
> record.
> > This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single
> field
> > whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record
> > contains the approval date of the most recent change to the
> registry,
> > making it possible to compare different versions of the registry.
> >  The registry on the IANA website is
> > the most current.   Versions with an older date than that one
> > are not up-to-date.</t>
> ...
>
> I think the real problem here is that this text (for section 3.1.2) is
> an imperfect re-cap of the detailed description in section 5.1.
> Rathering than repeating or summarizing (with the risk of getting it
> wrong), might it be better to make a forward reference?
> Proposed text:
>
> <t>The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date"
> record.
> This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field
> whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record
> contains a date (see 5.1) making it possible to easily recognize
> different versions of the registry.
>
> I think this more directly addresses the AD comment.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:07:53 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] It MUST and SHALL be preserved
To: <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <003d01c9ca12$67a294a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi -

> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:11 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] It MUST and SHALL be preserved
>
> Just to keep things simple, let's change all SHALLs to MUSTs.

As co chair: Let's not.  The two have exactly the same effect from and RFC 2119 point of view.  At this stage, we need to limit
ourselves to addressing the AD review comments, stuff we agreed earlier to address (references), and show-stopper bugs that happen
to pop up.

Randy (who is known to be somewhat humor-impaired, in case this was meant in jest.)



------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


End of Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
************************************
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From cowan@ccil.org  Mon May  4 12:46:40 2009
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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References: <mailman.3667.1241150634.4936.ltru@ietf.org> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35CE8@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <001c01c9ccef$020805a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
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From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49  RE: Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> If this is supposed to be a new issue, I will declare it "too late"
> unless it can be demonstrated to cause interoperability problems.

The sentence in question is the 3rd sentence of bullet point 16 of
Section 3.4.  It says that registrants SHOULD do something which
technically is impossible, because the registration authority they
are asked to petition does not exist.  The error is easily patched by
s/registration authority/maintenance agency/ in 3.4-16, and leaving it
in would be an embarrassment.  Please reconsider.

-- 
What asininity could I have uttered     John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
that they applaud me thus?              http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
        --Phocion, Greek orator

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To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700
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To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:13:17 -0700
Thread-Topic: Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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dQ0K

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Tue May  5 11:26:54 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Alexey's Apps Area Activity Report for April 2009
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Hi -

A status update from our AD...

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "Apps Discuss" <discuss@ietf.org>; <alexey-melnikov-chairs@tools.ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:20 AM
> Subject: Alexey's Apps Area Activity Report for April 2009
...
> Active documents, waiting on other:
> - draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (BCP) - IETF LC ended, waiting for a new 
> revision addressing my comments raised in AD review (Note: still waiting 
> for some extra reviews from the Apps Review Team)
> - draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis (Informational): IETF LC ended, waiting for 
> update to draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis before sending both to IESG for review
...
> WG Status:
...
> LTRU - IETF LC for both outstanding documents have finished, waiting for 
> the WG to produce updated drafts
...

Randy


From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com  Tue May  5 12:23:11 2009
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--001636e1fa2c5b95de04692f3a02
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I don't think we want to have single quotes in the

'default' canonical form
'extlang' canonical form

These are names of forms, not subtags. Should be:

default canonical form
extlang canonical form


Mark


On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:07, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

> There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>   canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
>   'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>   required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>   However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>   where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>   considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
>

--001636e1fa2c5b95de04692f3a02
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I don&#39;t think we want to have single quotes in the<br><br>&#39;default&=
#39; canonical form<br>
 &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form<br><br>These are names of forms, not subt=
ags. Should be:<br><br> default canonical form<br>

 extlang canonical form<br>
<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:07, Phillips, =
Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div id=3D":2d9" class=3D"ii gt"> There are two canonical forms for languag=
e tags: the &#39;default&#39;<br>
 =C2=A0 canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the<br>
 =C2=A0 &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form contains extended language subtags=
 where<br>
 =C2=A0 required. =C2=A0Normally, the &#39;default&#39; canonicalization is=
 preferred.<br>
 =C2=A0 However, the &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form can be useful in envi=
ronments<br>
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To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e1fcb644d8ee04692fa297
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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--001636e1fcb644d8ee04692fa297
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ah, I get it. They are substituting for italic on first usage since we are
limited in RFCs to plaintext*. In that case, the whole name (the part that
you would italicize) would be in quotes, eg.

... the 'default canonical form' is ...

Mark

* And since it's ASCII, we can't even use
http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D[\u210E\U0001D434-\=
U0001D467]
;-)


On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:39, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

>  Okay. Note that I (continue to) use the single quotes the first time to
> introduce the names. I have eliminated the other uses of the quotes.
>
>
>
> I also note that my copy of the text read:
>
>
>
> --
>
> A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended,
>
> --
>
>
>
> =E2=80=A6 but should read:
>
>
>
> --
>
> A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extlang,
>
> --
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] =
*On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:25 PM
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>
>
>
> I don't think we want to have single quotes in the
>
> 'default' canonical form
> 'extlang' canonical form
>
> These are names of forms, not subtags. Should be:
>
> default canonical form
> extlang canonical form
>
>
> Mark
>
>  On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:07, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>   canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
>   'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>   required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>   However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>   where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>   considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

--001636e1fcb644d8ee04692fa297
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ah, I get it. They are substituting for italic on first usage since we are =
limited in RFCs to plaintext*. In that case, the whole name (the part that =
you would italicize) would be in quotes, eg.<br><br>... the &#39;default ca=
nonical form&#39; is ...<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br><br>* And since it&#39;s ASCII, we can&#39;t even=
 use  <a href=3D"http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D["=
>http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D[</a>\u210E\U0001D=
434-\U0001D467] ;-)<br>

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:39, Phillips, =
Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Okay. Note tha=
t I (continue to) use the single quotes the first
time to introduce the names. I have eliminated the other uses of the quotes=
.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I also note th=
at my copy of the text read:</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p><=
div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A language tag=
 is in a canonical form, either default or extended,</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span=
></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=E2=80=A6 but =
should read:</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A language tag=
 is in a canonical form, either default or
extlang,</span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillip=
s</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization A=
rchitect -- Lab126</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);"></span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationaliz=
ation is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an archit=
ecture.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

</div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-=
use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: =
medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 22=
3) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium=
; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt;">
<a href=3D"mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mark.edwar=
d.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<=
/span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">

<p>=C2=A0</p>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">I don&#39;t think we want to have
single quotes in the<br>
<br>
&#39;default&#39; canonical form<br>
&#39;extlang&#39; canonical form<br>
<br>
These are names of forms, not subtags. Should be:<br>
<br>
default canonical form<br>
extlang canonical form<br>
<br>
<br clear=3D"all">
Mark<br>
<br>
</p>

<div>

<p>On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:07, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ad=
dison@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>

<div>

<p>There are two canonical forms for language tags: the
&#39;default&#39;<br>
=C2=A0 canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the<br>
=C2=A0 &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form contains extended language subtags =
where<br>
=C2=A0 required. =C2=A0Normally, the &#39;default&#39; canonicalization is =
preferred.<br>
=C2=A0 However, the &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form can be useful in envir=
onments<br>
=C2=A0 where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is<br>
=C2=A0 considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)</=
p>

</div>

</div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--001636e1fcb644d8ee04692fa297--

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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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LOL

Mark


On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 14:09, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote:

>  I changed the embrace of the ASCII quotes. And lit another candle at the
> shrine of UTF-8.
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] =
*On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:54 PM
>
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>
>
>
> Ah, I get it. They are substituting for italic on first usage since we ar=
e
> limited in RFCs to plaintext*. In that case, the whole name (the part tha=
t
> you would italicize) would be in quotes, eg.
>
> ... the 'default canonical form' is ...
>
> Mark
>
> * And since it's ASCII, we can't even use
> http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D[<http://unicode.=
org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D%5b>\u210E\U0001D434-\U0001D467]
> ;-)
>
>  On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:39, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> Okay. Note that I (continue to) use the single quotes the first time to
> introduce the names. I have eliminated the other uses of the quotes.
>
>
>
> I also note that my copy of the text read:
>
>
>
> --
>
> A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended,
>
> --
>
>
>
> =E2=80=A6 but should read:
>
>
>
> --
>
> A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extlang,
>
> --
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] =
*On
> Behalf Of *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:25 PM
> *To:* Phillips, Addison
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>
>
>
> I don't think we want to have single quotes in the
>
> 'default' canonical form
> 'extlang' canonical form
>
> These are names of forms, not subtags. Should be:
>
> default canonical form
> extlang canonical form
>
>
> Mark
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:07, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>
> wrote:
>
> There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>   canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
>   'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>   required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>   However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>   where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>   considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

--001636e9132ddbc88a046930f9fa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

LOL<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 14:09, Phillips, =
Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison=
@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; =
padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I changed the =
embrace of the ASCII quotes. And lit another
candle at the shrine of UTF-8.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span>=
</p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillip=
s</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization A=
rchitect -- Lab126</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);"></span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationaliz=
ation is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an archit=
ecture.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

</div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-=
use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: =
medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 22=
3) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium=
; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt;">
<a href=3D"mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mark.edwar=
d.davis@gmail.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>] <b>On Behalf
Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:54 PM<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5=
"><br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<=
/div></div></span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">

<p>=C2=A0</p>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">Ah, I get it. They are
substituting for italic on first usage since we are limited in RFCs to
plaintext*. In that case, the whole name (the part that you would italicize=
)
would be in quotes, eg.<br>
<br>
... the &#39;default canonical form&#39; is ...<br>
<br clear=3D"all">
Mark<br>
<br>
* And since it&#39;s ASCII, we can&#39;t even use <a href=3D"http://unicode=
.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D%5b" target=3D"_blank">http://uni=
code.org/cldr/utility/list-unicodeset.jsp?a=3D[</a>\u210E\U0001D434-\U0001D=
467]
;-)<br>
<br>
</p>

<div>

<p>On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 12:39, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ad=
dison@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>

<div>

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Okay. Note tha=
t I (continue to)
use the single quotes the first time to introduce the names. I have elimina=
ted
the other uses of the quotes.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I also note th=
at my copy of the
text read:</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A language tag=
 is in a
canonical form, either default or extended,</span></p>

</div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=E2=80=A6 but =
should read:</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A language tag=
 is in a
canonical form, either default or extlang,</span></p>

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillip=
s</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization A=
rchitect --
Lab126</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationaliz=
ation is not a
feature.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an archit=
ecture.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

</div>

<div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-use-te=
xt-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: medium=
 medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-color: -moz-use-text-co=
lor; border-width: 1pt medium medium; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt;"> <a href=3D"mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">mark.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ma=
rk.edward.davis@gmail.com</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 05, 2009 12:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Phillips, Addison<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<=
/span></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">I don&#39;t think we want to have single =
quotes in
the<br>
<br>
&#39;default&#39; canonical form<br>
&#39;extlang&#39; canonical form<br>
<br>
These are names of forms, not subtags. Should be:<br>
<br>
default canonical form<br>
extlang canonical form<br>
<br>
<br clear=3D"all">
Mark</p>

<div>

<p>On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 11:07, Phillips, Addison &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ad=
dison@amazon.com" target=3D"_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;
wrote:</p>

<div>

<p>There are two canonical forms for language tags: the &#39;default&#39;<b=
r>
=C2=A0 canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the<br>
=C2=A0 &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form contains extended language subtags =
where<br>
=C2=A0 required. =C2=A0Normally, the &#39;default&#39; canonicalization is =
preferred.<br>
=C2=A0 However, the &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form can be useful in envir=
onments<br>
=C2=A0 where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is<br>
=C2=A0 considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)</=
p>

</div>

</div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a></p>

</div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--001636e9132ddbc88a046930f9fa--

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Tue May  5 23:53:29 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:07 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
...
>    There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>    canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
>    'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>    required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>    However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>    where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>    considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
...

The word "required" looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword "REQUIRED", which
is essentially a "MUST".  Reading the proposed text in that light, the
"default" form makes no sense.

I really really really really really dislike, loathe, and abhor the very idea
of having two "canonical" forms - it seems oxymoronic.  Yes, there are
two use cases, but that does not mean that both have to be called
"canonical", or that the one true canonical form (whichever that is)
needs to serve both purposes.

Randy



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--000e0cd33226b5cf4504693f6723
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The other formulation we could use goes back a bit more towards the v21 text
with a single canonical form, yet still have a clearly defined extlang form
for people who need it.  If you can use the web, it is a new third column on
http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization. The differences from
the last formulation (B) I sent out are:

*[Remove from B: "There are two canonical forms... ...considered beneficial
in matching or selection."]**[Replace **B: "4. **In the extlang canonical
form (but not...
...Step 3." by the following]***The canonical form has no extlang subtag.
There is an alternate 'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so
that primary language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended
with the extlang's Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the
presence of the macrolanguage subtag is considered beneficial in matching or
selection (see <xref target="choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).

   - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak',
   which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). The
   extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).


I could live with either formulation.

Mark


On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 23:57, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:

> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:07 AM
> > Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> ...
> >    There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
> >    canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
> >    'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
> >    required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
> >    However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
> >    where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
> >    considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
> ...
>
> The word "required" looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword "REQUIRED", which
> is essentially a "MUST".  Reading the proposed text in that light, the
> "default" form makes no sense.
>
> I really really really really really dislike, loathe, and abhor the very
> idea
> of having two "canonical" forms - it seems oxymoronic.  Yes, there are
> two use cases, but that does not mean that both have to be called
> "canonical", or that the one true canonical form (whichever that is)
> needs to serve both purposes.
>
> Randy
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--000e0cd33226b5cf4504693f6723
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<font size=3D"2">The other formulation we could use goes back a bit more to=
wards the v21 text with a single canonical form, yet still have a clearly d=
efined extlang form for people who need it.=C2=A0 If you can use the web, i=
t is a new third column on <a href=3D"http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru=
-canonicalization">http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</=
a>. The differences from the last formulation (B) I sent out are:<br>
</font><table style=3D"border-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-width: 1px;=
 border-collapse: collapse;" border=3D"1" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr></tr=
><tr><td style=3D"width: 33%;"><br></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"width: 33%;">=
<i><font>[</font><font>Remove from B: &quot;There are two canonical forms..=
. </font><font>...considered beneficial in matching or selection.</font><fo=
nt>&quot;]</font></i></td>
</tr><tr><td style=3D"width: 33%;"><font><i>[Replace </i></font><i>B: &quot=
;4. </i><font><i>In the extlang canonical form (but not...<br>...Step 3.&qu=
ot; by the following]</i></font><font size=3D"2"><i></i></font></td></tr><t=
r>
<td style=3D"width: 33%;"><font size=3D"2">The canonical form has no extlan=
g subtag. There is an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39;
that </font><font size=3D"2">modifies the canonical form so that primary la=
nguage subtags that are also
extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang&#39;s Prefix. </font><font s=
ize=3D"2">This form
may be useful in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see &lt;xref
target=3D&quot;choiceUsingExtlang&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;).</font><font size=
=3D"2"><br>
<ul><li>For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary language
subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a =
Prefix &#39;zh&#39;
(Chinese). The extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka,
China).</li></ul>
</font><font size=3D"2"></font></td></tr></tbody></table><font size=3D"2"><=
br>I could live with either formulation.<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br><br><=
br></font>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><font size=3D"2">On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 23:57, R=
andy Presuhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspri=
ng.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></font><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 2=
04); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<font size=3D"2">Hi -<br><br>
As a technical contributor...<br><br>
&gt; From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amaz=
on.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org=
">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:07 AM<br>
&gt; Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<br>
...<br></font>


<div class=3D"im"><font size=3D"2">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are two canonica=
l forms for language tags: the &#39;default&#39;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0canonical form contains no extended language subtags, whi=
le the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0&#39;extlang&#39; canonical form contains extended langua=
ge subtags where<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0required. =C2=A0Normally, the &#39;default&#39; canonical=
ization is preferred.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, the &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form can be usef=
ul in environments<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0where the presence of the enclosing primary language subt=
ag is<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Secti=
on 4.1.2)<br></font>
</div><font size=3D"2">...<br><br>
The word &quot;required&quot; looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword &quot;R=
EQUIRED&quot;, which<br>
is essentially a &quot;MUST&quot;. =C2=A0Reading the proposed text in that =
light, the<br>
&quot;default&quot; form makes no sense.<br><br>
I really really really really really dislike, loathe, and abhor the very id=
ea<br>
of having two &quot;canonical&quot; forms - it seems oxymoronic. =C2=A0Yes,=
 there are<br>
two use cases, but that does not mean that both have to be called<br>
&quot;canonical&quot;, or that the one true canonical form (whichever that =
is)<br>
needs to serve both purposes.<br></font>


<font color=3D"#888888" size=3D"2"><br>
Randy<br>
</font><div><div class=3D"h5"><font size=3D"2"><br><br>
______________________________</font>
<font size=3D"2">_________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>=
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br></font>


</div></div></blockquote></div><font size=3D"2"><br></font>

--000e0cd33226b5cf4504693f6723--

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--001636e0ab15e46dfb046942c239
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Doug had a small fix, for the use of macrolanguage subtag. So

This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the
macrolanguage subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see
<xref target="choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).
=>
This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the Prefix
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see <xref
target="choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).

Also fixed on http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization

Mark


On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 07:42, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> wrote:

> The other formulation we could use goes back a bit more towards the v21
> text with a single canonical form, yet still have a clearly defined extlang
> form for people who need it.  If you can use the web, it is a new third
> column on http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization. The
> differences from the last formulation (B) I sent out are:
>
> *[Remove from B: "There are two canonical forms... ...considered
> beneficial in matching or selection."]* *[Replace **B: "4. **In the
> extlang canonical form (but not...
> ...Step 3." by the following]*** The canonical form has no extlang subtag.
> There is an alternate 'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so
> that primary language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended
> with the extlang's Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where
> the presence of the macrolanguage subtag is considered beneficial in
> matching or selection (see <xref target="choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).
>
>    - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag
>    'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese).
>    The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>
>
> I could live with either formulation.
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 23:57, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> As a technical contributor...
>>
>> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
>> > To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:07 AM
>> > Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>> ...
>> >    There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>> >    canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
>> >    'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>> >    required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>> >    However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>> >    where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>> >    considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
>> ...
>>
>> The word "required" looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword "REQUIRED",
>> which
>> is essentially a "MUST".  Reading the proposed text in that light, the
>> "default" form makes no sense.
>>
>> I really really really really really dislike, loathe, and abhor the very
>> idea
>> of having two "canonical" forms - it seems oxymoronic.  Yes, there are
>> two use cases, but that does not mean that both have to be called
>> "canonical", or that the one true canonical form (whichever that is)
>> needs to serve both purposes.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> ______________________________ _________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
>

--001636e0ab15e46dfb046942c239
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Doug had a small fix, for the use of macrolanguage subtag. So<br><br><font =
size=3D"2">This form
may be useful in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see &lt;xref
target=3D&quot;choiceUsingExtlang&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;).</font><font size=
=3D"2"><br>=3D&gt;<br></font><font size=3D"2">This form
may be useful in environments where the presence of the Prefix
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see &lt;xref
target=3D&quot;choiceUsingExtlang&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;).</font><font size=
=3D"2"><br><br>Also fixed on </font><font size=3D"2"><a href=3D"http://www.=
macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization" target=3D"_blank">http://www.m=
acchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</a></font><br>
<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 07:42, Mark Davis=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com">mark@macchiato=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<font size=3D"2">The other formulation we could use goes back a bit more to=
wards the v21 text with a single canonical form, yet still have a clearly d=
efined extlang form for people who need it.=C2=A0 If you can use the web, i=
t is a new third column on <a href=3D"http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru=
-canonicalization" target=3D"_blank">http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-=
canonicalization</a>. The differences from the last formulation (B) I sent =
out are:<br>

</font><table style=3D"border-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-width: 1px;=
 border-collapse: collapse;" border=3D"1" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr></tr=
><tr><td style=3D"width: 33%;"><br></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"width: 33%;">=
<i><font>[</font><font>Remove from B: &quot;There are two canonical forms..=
. </font><font>...considered beneficial in matching or selection.</font><fo=
nt>&quot;]</font></i></td>

</tr><tr><td style=3D"width: 33%;"><font><i>[Replace </i></font><i>B: &quot=
;4. </i><font><i>In the extlang canonical form (but not...<br>...Step 3.&qu=
ot; by the following]</i></font><font size=3D"2"><i></i></font></td></tr><t=
r>

<td style=3D"width: 33%;"><font size=3D"2">The canonical form has no extlan=
g subtag. There is an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39;
that </font><font size=3D"2">modifies the canonical form so that primary la=
nguage subtags that are also
extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang&#39;s Prefix. </font><font s=
ize=3D"2">This form
may be useful in environments where the presence of the macrolanguage
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see &lt;xref
target=3D&quot;choiceUsingExtlang&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;).</font><font size=
=3D"2"><br>
<ul><li>For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary language
subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a =
Prefix &#39;zh&#39;
(Chinese). The extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka,
China).</li></ul>
</font><font size=3D"2"></font></td></tr></tbody></table><font size=3D"2"><=
br>I could live with either formulation.<br><font color=3D"#888888"><br cle=
ar=3D"all">Mark<br><br><br></font></font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><font size=3D"2">On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 23:57, R=
andy Presuhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspri=
ng.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
</font><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rg=
b(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<font size=3D"2">Hi -<br><br>
As a technical contributor...<br><br>
&gt; From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amaz=
on.com" target=3D"_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 11:07 AM<br>
&gt; Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<br>
...<br></font>


<div><font size=3D"2">&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are two canonical forms for l=
anguage tags: the &#39;default&#39;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0canonical form contains no extended language subtags, whi=
le the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0&#39;extlang&#39; canonical form contains extended langua=
ge subtags where<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0required. =C2=A0Normally, the &#39;default&#39; canonical=
ization is preferred.<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0However, the &#39;extlang&#39; canonical form can be usef=
ul in environments<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0where the presence of the enclosing primary language subt=
ag is<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Secti=
on 4.1.2)<br></font>
</div><font size=3D"2">...<br><br>
The word &quot;required&quot; looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword &quot;R=
EQUIRED&quot;, which<br>
is essentially a &quot;MUST&quot;. =C2=A0Reading the proposed text in that =
light, the<br>
&quot;default&quot; form makes no sense.<br><br>
I really really really really really dislike, loathe, and abhor the very id=
ea<br>
of having two &quot;canonical&quot; forms - it seems oxymoronic. =C2=A0Yes,=
 there are<br>
two use cases, but that does not mean that both have to be called<br>
&quot;canonical&quot;, or that the one true canonical form (whichever that =
is)<br>
needs to serve both purposes.<br></font>


<font color=3D"#888888" size=3D"2"><br>
Randy<br>
</font><div><div><font size=3D"2"><br><br>
______________________________</font>
<font size=3D"2">_________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltr=
u@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br></font>


</div></div></blockquote></div><font size=3D"2"><br></font>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--001636e0ab15e46dfb046942c239--

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Mark Davis 2009-05-06 16.42:
> On Tue, May 5, 2009 at 23:57, Randy Presuhn wrote:

>>>    There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>>>    canonical form contains no extended language subtags, while the
>>>    'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>>>    required.  Normally, the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>>>    However, the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>>>    where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>>>    considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)

>> The word "required" looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword "REQUIRED", which
>> is essentially a "MUST".  Reading the proposed text in that light, the
>> "default" form makes no sense.
>>
>> I really really really really really dislike, loathe, and abhor the 
>> very idea of having two "canonical" forms - it seems oxymoronic. 
>> Yes, there are two use cases, but that does not mean that both have
>> to be called "canonical", or that the one true canonical form
>> (whichever that is) needs to serve both purposes.

> The other formulation we could use goes back a bit more towards the v21 text
> with a single canonical form, yet still have a clearly defined extlang form
> for people who need it. [...]

It seems better to just edit the text a little by dealing with 
'default': 'default' indicates that the "non-extlang" variant 
could need a name of its own that (just as "extlang") gives a hint 
about its nature - for example "plain" or "common". Whether this 
canonicalization also is the default one, can then be expressed 
independently of the name.

Additionally, the text could - in line with the title of the 
section - focus on process (canonicalization) rather than result 
(canonical form) - default type of canonicalization, rather than 
a (default) canonical form.

Thus Addison's two first paragraphs could then e.g. become:

<t>Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many 
processes, language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in 
a canonicalized form.</t>

<t>Canonicalization is either of type 'plain' or of type 
'extlang'. 'Plain canonicalization' leads to a language tag with 
no extended language subtags, while 'extlang canonicalization' 
leads to a language tag with extended language subtags. 'Plain 
canonicalization' is the default option. But 'extlang 
canonicalization' can be useful in environments where the presence 
of the enclosing primary language subtag is considered beneficial 
to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)</t>
-- 
leif halvard silli

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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=20

Hi=2C I have not had much time online to go through these updates=3B howeve=
r=2C I have a few comments about a few sections.  Following are comments ab=
out the introductory two paragraphs that seem to be causing so much 'hullab=
aloo'.

=20

I. 'Prefix subtag' seems a good fix for 'enclosing primary language subtag'=
.

=20

    From: Mark Davis <mark at macchiato.com>=20

>  Doug had a small fix=2C for the use of macrolanguage subtag. So

>  This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the macrol=
anguage subtag is considered beneficial in matching >  or selection (see <x=
ref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).
>  =3D>
> This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the Prefix =
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or=20

> selection (see <xref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).

=20

This seems a possible fix!

It's more readily understood!

=20

II.  I have no problems with saying that there are two canonical forms=3B a=
nd I have no problems with the word 'default' the way it's used (I did not =
see anyone completely getting around default in their suggested fixes yet a=
nyway=3B if you're going to have the word 'default'=2C then there's no need=
 to add additional words=3B just say 'default' straight out=2C no need to m=
eander your way to it).

However=2C I did agree with Randy that we must be careful about using key t=
erms.

=20

From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>=20
Date: Tue=2C 5 May 2009 23:57:31 -0700=20
> Hi -

> As a technical contributor...

>> From: "Phillips=2C Addison" <addison at amazon.com>
>> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru at ietf.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday=2C May 05=2C 2009 11:07 AM
>> Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
...
>>    There are two canonical forms for language tags: the 'default'
>>    canonical form contains no extended language subtags=2C while the
>>    'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where
>>    required.  Normally=2C the 'default' canonicalization is preferred.
>>    However=2C the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments
>>    where the presence of the enclosing primary language subtag is
>>    considered beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)
> ...

> The word "required" looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword "REQUIRED"=2C w=
hich
> is essentially a "MUST".  Reading the proposed text in that light=2C the
> "default" form makes no sense.

*
I agree with Randy's concern about using a keyword=3B thanks for catching t=
his!


> I really really really really really dislike=2C loathe=2C and abhor the v=
ery idea
> of having two "canonical" forms - it seems oxymoronic.  Yes=2C there are
> two use cases=2C but that does not mean that both have to be called
> "canonical"=2C or that the one true canonical form (whichever that is)
> needs to serve both purposes.

> Randy

* * *
 I think the text suggested by Leif Halvard Silli--trying to get around the=
 use of the word 'default' (which he ultimately has to use anyway) is a bit=
 wordy.
As I said above=2C I think you might as well come out and say default here.

=20

=20

Best=2C=20

=20

C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com

=20

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<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
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</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>
Hi=2C I have not had much time online to go through these updates=3B howeve=
r=2C I have a few comments about a few sections.&nbsp=3B Following are comm=
ents about the introductory two paragraphs that seem to be causing so much =
'hullabaloo'.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I. 'Prefix subtag' seems a good fix for 'enclosing primary language subtag'=
.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B From: Mark Davis &lt=3Bmark at macchiato.com&gt=3B=
 <BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B Doug had a small fix=2C for the use of macrolanguage subtag.=
 So<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B This form may be useful in environments where the presence o=
f the macrolanguage subtag is considered beneficial in matching &gt=3B&nbsp=
=3B or selection (see &lt=3Bxref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"&gt=3B&lt=3B/=
xref&gt=3B).<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B =3D&gt=3B<BR>&gt=3B This form may be useful =
in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is considered benef=
icial in matching or <BR>
&gt=3B selection (see &lt=3Bxref target=3D"choiceUsingExtlang"&gt=3B&lt=3B/=
xref&gt=3B).<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
This seems a possible fix!<BR>
It's more readily understood!<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
II.&nbsp=3B I have no problems with saying that there are two canonical for=
ms=3B and I have no problems with the word 'default' the way it's used (I d=
id not see anyone completely getting around default in their suggested fixe=
s yet anyway=3B if you're going to have the word 'default'=2C then there's =
no need to add additional words=3B just say 'default' straight out=2C no ne=
ed to meander your way to it).<BR>
However=2C I did agree with Randy that we must be careful about using key t=
erms.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
From: "Randy Presuhn" &lt=3Brandy_presuhn at mindspring.com&gt=3B <BR>Date:=
 Tue=2C 5 May 2009 23:57:31 -0700 <BR>&gt=3B Hi -<BR>
&gt=3B As a technical contributor...<BR>
&gt=3B&gt=3B From: "Phillips=2C Addison" &lt=3Baddison at amazon.com&gt=3B<=
BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B To: "LTRU Working Group" &lt=3Bltru at ietf.org&gt=3B<BR>&g=
t=3B&gt=3B Sent: Tuesday=2C May 05=2C 2009 11:07 AM<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B Subject=
: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available<BR>...<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B There are two canonical forms for language tags: t=
he 'default'<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B canonical form contain=
s no extended language subtags=2C while the<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B 'extlang' canonical form contains extended language subtags where<=
BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B required.&nbsp=3B Normally=2C the '=
default' canonicalization is preferred.<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbs=
p=3B However=2C the 'extlang' canonical form can be useful in environments<=
BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B where the presence of the enclosing=
 primary language subtag is<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B conside=
red beneficial to matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2)<BR>&gt=3B ...<B=
R>
&gt=3B The word "required" looks a lot like the RFC 2219 keyword "REQUIRED"=
=2C which<BR>&gt=3B is essentially a "MUST".&nbsp=3B Reading the proposed t=
ext in that light=2C the<BR>&gt=3B "default" form makes no sense.<BR>
*<BR>I agree with Randy's concern about using a keyword=3B thanks for catch=
ing this!<BR><BR>
&gt=3B I really really really really really dislike=2C loathe=2C and abhor =
the very idea<BR>&gt=3B of having two "canonical" forms - it seems oxymoron=
ic.&nbsp=3B Yes=2C there are<BR>&gt=3B two use cases=2C but that does not m=
ean that both have to be called<BR>&gt=3B "canonical"=2C or that the one tr=
ue canonical form (whichever that is)<BR>&gt=3B needs to serve both purpose=
s.<BR>
&gt=3B Randy<BR>
* * *<BR>&nbsp=3BI think the text suggested by Leif Halvard Silli--trying t=
o get around the use of the word 'default' (which he ultimately has to use =
anyway) is a bit wordy.<BR>As I said above=2C I think you might as well com=
e out and say default here.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Best=2C <BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR></body>
</html>=

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Hi!  I finally got a chance to comment a little on Addison's text=3B sorry =
I took so long!

=20

Sorry I cannot offer more comments yet=3B on avery quick glance=2C I think =
Mark's doing a good job with step 4 at:

http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization

=20

Best=2C

=20

C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com

=20

=20

=20

From: "Phillips=2C Addison" <addison at amazon.com>=20

Date: Tue=2C 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700=20

>   3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one.
>       For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language
>       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
>       the Preferred-Value.

* * *
This second sentence=2C

"For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language
       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
       the Preferred-Value."=20

is confusing!  I think this information would be clearer if it waited till =
the next section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also I'd prefer an exa=
mple rather than an explanation here as the various primary language subtag=
s here get me muddled (sorry)!
* * *

>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>          "extended language range" and almost always consists of a
>          single=2C primary language subtag.  For example=2C the subtag
>          sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the
>          tag "hak" (Hakka). =20

* * *
(You might add a note here however & I'd prefer an example=3B I think an ex=
ample would make this confusing text more clear.)
* * *
>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of
>          subtags consists of a subtag of the same type.  Most of these
>          non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
>          country name or designation has changed or are clerical
>          corrections to ISO 639-1.

>Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

=20

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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Hi!&nbsp=3B I finally got a chance to comment a little on Addison's text=3B=
 sorry I took so long!<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Sorry I cannot offer more comments yet=3B on avery quick glance=2C I think =
Mark's doing a good job with step 4 at:<BR>
<A href=3D"http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization">http://w=
ww.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</A><BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Best=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
From: "Phillips=2C Addison" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:addison@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">=
addison at amazon.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>
Date: Tue=2C 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700 <BR><!--X-Head-of-Message-End--><!--=
X-Head-Body-Sep-Begin-->
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B 3.&nbsp=3B Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-V=
alue=2C if there is one.<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B=
 For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language<BR>&gt=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtag is also replaced if t=
here is a primary language subtag in<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value.<BR>
* * *<BR>This second sentence=2C<BR>
"For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language<BR>&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtag is also replaced if there i=
s a primary language subtag in<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value." <BR>
is confusing!&nbsp=3B I think this information would be clearer if it waite=
d till the next section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also&nbsp=3BI'd=
 prefer an example rather than an explanation here as the various primary l=
anguage subtags here get me muddled (sorry)!<BR>* * *<BR>
&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B The field-=
body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nb=
sp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B "extended language ra=
nge" and almost always consists of a<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B single=2C primary language subt=
ag.&nbsp=3B For example=2C the subtag<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbs=
p=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C =
Hakka) would be replaced with the<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B tag "hak" (Hakka).&nbsp=3B <BR>
* * *<BR>(You might add a note here however &amp=3B I'd prefer an example=
=3B I&nbsp=3Bthink an example would make this confusing text more clear.)<B=
R>* * *<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B=
 The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of<BR>&gt=3B&nbs=
p=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtags consi=
sts of a subtag of the same type.&nbsp=3B Most of these<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B non-extlang =
subtags are either Region subtags where the<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B country name or designation has=
 changed or are clerical<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B corrections to ISO 639-1.<BR>
&gt=3BAddison Phillips<BR>Globalization Architect -- Lab126<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR></body>
</html>=

--_bb3b1803-1e08-4bac-86a5-e014b3f6b3b0_--

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--000e0cd2dda40d05f80469ab5f9a
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It appears to me that we have rough consensus on the text. I'd like to see
if we can move forward on this. That text (also in Column C of
http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization) is below.

===

Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created and processed in a canonical form.

A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended, when the
tag is well-formed according the rules in <xref target="syntax"/> and <xref
target="sources"/> and it has been canonicalized by applying each of the
following steps in order, using data from the IANA registry (see <xref
target="ianaformat"/>):

1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
singleton subtag.

   - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.

2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if
there is one.

   - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the adoption
   of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to
   "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or additions to this
   document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3
   code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
   - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant
   tags is an "extended language range" (<xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) and
   might consist of more than one subtag.

3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is
a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.

   - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
   language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
   example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced
   with the tag "hak" (Hakka).
   - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
   country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
   639-1.


The canonical form has no extlang subtag. There is an alternate 'extlang
form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language subtags that
are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's Prefix. This form
may be useful in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
considered beneficial in matching or selection (see <xref
target="choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).

   - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak',
   which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). The
   extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).

--000e0cd2dda40d05f80469ab5f9a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<font size=3D"2">It appears to me that we have rough consensus on the text.=
 I&#39;d like to see if we can move forward on this. That text (also in Col=
umn C of <a href=3D"http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization"=
 target=3D"_blank">http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</=
a>) is below. <br>
<br>=3D=3D=3D<br>
<br></font><table style=3D"border-color: rgb(136, 136, 136); border-width: =
1px; border-collapse: collapse;" border=3D"1" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr>=
</tr><tr><td><font size=3D"2">Since a particular language tag is sometimes =
used by
many processes, language tags SHOULD always be created and processed in
a canonical form.<br>
<br>
</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=3D"2">A language tag is in a canonical =
form, either default or
extended, when the tag is well-formed according the rules in &lt;xref
target=3D&quot;syntax&quot;/&gt; and &lt;xref target=3D&quot;sources&quot;/=
&gt; and it has been
canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in order, using
data from the </font><font size=3D"2">IANA registry (see &lt;xref target=3D=
&quot;ianaformat&quot;/&gt;)</font><font size=3D"2">:<br><br></font></td></=
tr><tr><td><font size=3D"2">1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-in=
sensitive ASCII
order by singleton subtag.</font>
<ul><li><font size=3D"2">That is, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39;
comes before &#39;-b-warble&#39;.</font></li></ul>
</td></tr><tr><td><font size=3D"2">2.=C2=A0</font><font size=3D"2">Redundan=
t or grandfathered tags are replaced by their </font><font size=3D"2">Prefe=
rred-Value, if there is one.<br>
</font>
<ul><li><font size=3D"2">These
items are either deprecated mappings created before the adoption of
this document (such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; =
or &quot;i-klingon&quot;
to &quot;tlh&quot;) or are the result of later registrations or additions t=
o this
document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in favor of the =
ISO
639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).</font></li><li><f=
ont size=3D"2">These
field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant tags
is an &quot;extended language range&quot; (&lt;xref
target=3D&quot;RFC4647&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;) and might consist of more th=
an one
subtag.</font></li></ul>
</td></tr><tr><td><font size=3D"2">3. Subtags are replaced by their </font>=
<font size=3D"2">Preferred-Value, if there is one.</font><font size=3D"2"> =
</font><font size=3D"2">For extlangs, the original primary language
subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the </font=
><font size=3D"2">Preferred-Value</font><font size=3D"2">.</font>
<ul><li><font size=3D"2">The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs=
 is
an &quot;extended language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary lang=
uage
subtag. For example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese,
Hakka) would be replaced with the tag &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka).</font></li><=
li><font size=3D"2">Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region
subtags where the country name or designation has changed or clerical
corrections to ISO 639-1.</font></li></ul>
</td></tr></tbody></table><font size=3D"2"><br></font><font size=3D"2">The =
canonical form has no extlang subtag. There is an alternate &#39;extlang fo=
rm&#39;
that </font><font size=3D"2">modifies the canonical form so that primary la=
nguage subtags that are also
extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang&#39;s Prefix. </font><font s=
ize=3D"2">This form
may be useful in environments where the presence of the Prefix
subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see &lt;xref
target=3D&quot;choiceUsingExtlang&quot;&gt;&lt;/xref&gt;).</font><font size=
=3D"2"><br><ul><li>For
example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag &#39=
;hak&#39;,
which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (C=
hinese). The
extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China).</li></=
ul>
</font>

--000e0cd2dda40d05f80469ab5f9a--

From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Tue May 12 00:13:03 2009
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Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 09:14:10 +0200
From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
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> Detta meddelande Šr i MIME-format. PŒ grund av att din e-postlŠsare inte fšrstŒr
detta format, kommer hela eller delar av detta meddelande inte att vara lŠsbart.

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A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended,
-->
A language tag is in 'canonical form', or in the alternative 'extlang form'
(see below), 

(since there is now only one "canonical form"; the extlang form is no longer
termed "canonical")

        /kent k


--B_3324964464_23856445
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt=
'><BR>
A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended, <BR>
--&gt;<BR>
A language tag is in 'canonical form', or in the alternative 'extlang form'=
 (see below), <BR>
<BR>
(since there is now only one &quot;canonical form&quot;; the extlang form i=
s no longer termed &quot;canonical&quot;)<BR>
<BR>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/kent k<BR>
</SPAN></FONT>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--B_3324964464_23856445--



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Whoops, missed that. Thanks,

Mark


On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 00:14, Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>wrote:

>
> A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended,
> -->
> A language tag is in 'canonical form', or in the alternative 'extlang form'
> (see below),
>
> (since there is now only one "canonical form"; the extlang form is no
> longer termed "canonical")
>
>         /kent k
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

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Whoops, missed that. Thanks,<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 00:14, Kent Karl=
sson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se">ken=
t.karlsson14@comhem.se</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt =
0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>
<font face=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt;"><div class=3D"im"><br>
A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended, <br></di=
v>
--&gt;<br>
A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;, or in the alternative &#39;e=
xtlang form&#39; (see below), <br>
<br>
(since there is now only one &quot;canonical form&quot;; the extlang form i=
s no longer termed &quot;canonical&quot;)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0/kent k<br>
</span></font>
</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--001636e1fa53b5e2e10469b78305--

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Tue May 12 13:21:37 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235233] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis (Update to the Language Subtag Registry) to Informational RFC
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Hi -

Forwarded for your information.

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Amanda Baber via RT" <drafts-lastcall@icann.org>
> Cc: <doug@ewellic.org>; <ltru-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; <iesg@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:02 PM
> Subject: [IANA #235233] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis (Update to the Language Subtag > Registry) to Informational RFC 
>
> IESG:
> 
> IANA has the following comments on draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt:
> 
> IANA understands that a single action is required upon publication.
> 
> IANA understands that the intent of this Internet Draft is to 
> replace the entire contents of the Language Subtag Registry at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry with 
> the appropriately marked contents of Section 3.
> 
> In addition, IANA understands that no changes are to be made to 
> the Registration Templates repository at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html 
> or to the Language Tag Extensions Registry at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tag-extensions-registry.
> 
> IANA understands that the replacement of the Language Subtag 
> Registry and its reference to RFC4646 is the only action required of 
> IANA upon publication. 
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Amanda Baber
> (on behalf of IANA)
> 
> 
> > The IESG has received a request from the Language Tag Registry Update
> > WG
> > (ltru) to consider the following document:
> > 
> > - 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry '
> >    <draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt> as an Informational RFC
> > 
> > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> > final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to
> > the
> > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-04-23. Exceptionally,
> > comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please
> > retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
> > 
> > The file can be obtained via
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt
> > 
> > 
> > IESG discussion can be tracked via
> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=15205&rfc_flag=0
> > 
> 
> 
> 


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Tue May 12 13:39:46 2009
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Hi -

Forwarded for your information.  Please
note that there are items requiring action.

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Amanda Baber via RT" <drafts-lastcall@icann.org>
> Cc: <addison@inter-locale.com>; <mark.davis@google.com>; <ltru-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; <iesg@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:27 PM
> Subject: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP 
>
> IESG:
> 
> IANA has reviewed draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21.txt and has the 
> following questions and comments:
> 
> NOTE: IANA would like to talk to the authors/ADs about other 
> options for announcing registry updates (as opposed to the 
> proposed "ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org" mailing list). 
> 
> IANA understands that, upon publication of this document, no 
> IMMEDIATE actions need to be completed. However, IANA has two 
> questions about the existing templates and extensions registries 
> currently published by IANA.
> 
> IANA understands that the current document provides a procedure 
> for inserting or replacing whole records in the Language Subtag 
> Registry located at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-subtag-registry.
> 
> IANA further understands that all future modifications to the 
> Language Subtag Registry will be done through the template 
> defined in section 3.5 (Figure 5). Review of the template will be 
> completed by an IESG-appointed Language Subtag Reviewer. When 
> IANA is asked to update this registry in the future, IANA 
> understands that it will be given preformatted content to insert in 
> the registry according to the instructions in section 3.3.
> 
> IANA further understands that any template submitted and 
> approved in this manner will be archived and made publicly 
> available at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/. IANA 
> understands that multiple registrations can pertain to the same 
> record in the registry.
> 
> Furthermore, IANA understands that, at a future date, the IESG may 
> request that new records be inserted into the Language Tag 
> Extensions Registry located at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tag-extensions-registry
> 
> If this happens the IESG will provide the record to be inserted in the exact
> format described in section 3.7.
> 
> IANA also notes that there may be occasional requests from the 
> maintaining authority for a specific extension to update the contact 
> information or URLs in the records located at 
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tag-extensions-
> registry.
> 
> If this happens, the requests will include the complete, updated 
> record. IANA understands that it is not responsible for validating 
> the information provided, only its format. IANA will make an effort 
> to ascertain that the request comes from the maintaining authority 
> named in the record present in the registry.
> 
> IANA has the following questions for the authors:
> 
> 1] What should be done with the existing registry of templates at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html?
> 
> 2] What should be done with the existing (but empty) Language Tag 
> Extension Registry at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tag-extensions-registry?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Amanda Baber
> (on behalf of IANA)
> 
> 
> > The IESG has received a request from the Language Tag Registry Update
> > WG
> > (ltru) to consider the following document:
> > 
> > - 'Tags for Identifying Languages '
> >    <draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21.txt> as a BCP
> > 
> > The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> > final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to
> > the
> > ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-04-27. Exceptionally,
> > comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please
> > retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
> > 
> > The file can be obtained via
> > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21.txt
> > 
> > 
> > IESG discussion can be tracked via
> >
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=15152&rfc_flag=0
> > 
> 
> 
> 


From cowan@ccil.org  Tue May 12 13:45:28 2009
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
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Randy Presuhn scripsit:

> Forwarded for your information.  Please
> note that there are items requiring action.

I believe these are the appropriate answers:

> > IANA has the following questions for the authors:
> > 
> > 1] What should be done with the existing registry of templates at
> > http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html?

Nothing.  It will grow as new subtags are registered.

> > 2] What should be done with the existing (but empty) Language Tag 
> > Extension Registry at
> > http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tag-extensions-registry?

Nothing.  It will grow if extensions are registered.

-- 
A rose by any other name                            John Cowan
may smell as sweet,                                 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
but if you called it an onion                       cowan@ccil.org
you'd get cooks very confused.          --RMS

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To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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From cewcathar@hotmail.com  Tue May 12 15:59:33 2009
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Sorry=2C I sent this previously with the signature above many of my comment=
s=3B once more here are comments on section 4.5=3B item # 3 (see http://www=
.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html) for the text=3B and

sorry I took so long to correct this=3B I have been away from the computer =
due to other obligations!)=3B

I don't know if it's too late to suggest these changes or not:

From: "Phillips=2C Addison" <addison at amazon.com>=20
Date: Tue=2C 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700=20
>   3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one.
>       For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language
>       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
>       the Preferred-Value.
* * *
This second sentence=2C
"For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language
       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
       the Preferred-Value."=20
is confusing!  I think this information would be clearer if it waited till =
the next section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also I'd prefer an exa=
mple rather than an explanation here as the various primary language subtag=
s here get me muddled (sorry)!
* * *
>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>          "extended language range" and almost always consists of a
>          single=2C primary language subtag.  For example=2C the subtag
>          sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the
>          tag "hak" (Hakka). =20
* * *
You might move your introductory comment about the "original primary langua=
ge subtag's" being replaced by its "Preferred-Value=2C if there is . . . " =
one.  However I'd prefer an example=3B I think an example would make this c=
onfusing text more clear.

=20

Best=2C

=20

C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com
* * *
>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of
>          subtags consists of a subtag of the same type.  Most of these
>          non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
>          country name or designation has changed or are clerical
>          corrections to ISO 639-1.
>Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126




--_97bd9c2f-918b-4a63-90c1-b4f1e5912f64_
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<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Sorry=2C I sent this previously with the signature above&nbsp=3Bmany of my&=
nbsp=3Bcomments=3B once more here are comments on section 4.5=3B item # 3 (=
see <A href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.h=
tml">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html</A>) f=
or the text=3B and<BR>
sorry I took so long to correct this=3B I have been away from the computer =
due to other obligations!)=3B<BR>
I don't know if it's too late to suggest these changes or not:<BR><BR>From:=
 "Phillips=2C Addison" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:addison%20at%20DOMAIN.HIDDEN=
" rel=3Dnofollow>addison at amazon.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>Date: Tue=2C 5 May 200=
9 11:07:16 -0700 <BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B 3.&nbsp=3B Subtags are replaced=
 by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one.<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nb=
sp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B For extended language subtags=2C the original primary=
 language<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtag =
is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value.<BR>* * *<BR>T=
his second sentence=2C<BR>"For extended language subtags=2C the original pr=
imary language<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtag i=
s also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value." <BR>is confusing!=
&nbsp=3B I think this information would be clearer if it waited till the ne=
xt section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also&nbsp=3BI'd prefer an ex=
ample rather than an explanation here as the various primary language subta=
gs here get me muddled (sorry)!<BR>* * *<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B The field-body of the Preferred-Value for=
 extlangs is an<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B "extended language range" and almost always consists=
 of a<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbs=
p=3B&nbsp=3B single=2C primary language subtag.&nbsp=3B For example=2C the =
subtag<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nb=
sp=3B&nbsp=3B sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with t=
he<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B tag "hak" (Hakka).&nbsp=3B <BR>* * *<BR>You might move your int=
roductory comment&nbsp=3Babout the "original primary language subtag's" bei=
ng replaced by its "Preferred-Value=2C if there is . . . " one.&nbsp=3B How=
ever I'd prefer an example=3B I&nbsp=3Bthink an example would make this con=
fusing text more clear.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Best=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR>* * *=
<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B The fi=
eld-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nb=
sp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtags consists of =
a subtag of the same type.&nbsp=3B Most of these<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B non-extlang subtags=
 are either Region subtags where the<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbs=
p=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B country name or designation has change=
d or are clerical<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B corrections to ISO 639-1.<BR>&gt=3BAddison Phillip=
s<BR>Globalization Architect -- Lab126<BR><BR><BR><BR></body>
</html>=

--_97bd9c2f-918b-4a63-90c1-b4f1e5912f64_--

From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com  Tue May 12 16:42:06 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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I believe your comments are on older text. Can you look at the newer text to
see whether you would have the same comments?

Mark


On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 16:01, CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Sorry, I sent this previously with the signature above many of
> my comments; once more here are comments on section 4.5; item # 3 (see
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html) for the
> text; and
> sorry I took so long to correct this; I have been away from the computer
> due to other obligations!);
> I don't know if it's too late to suggest these changes or not:
>
> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison at amazon.com<addison%20at%20DOMAIN.HIDDEN>>
>
> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700
> >   3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
> >       For extended language subtags, the original primary language
> >       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
> >       the Preferred-Value.
> * * *
> This second sentence,
> "For extended language subtags, the original primary language
>        subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
>        the Preferred-Value."
> is confusing!  I think this information would be clearer if it waited till
> the next section; that's my personal preference; also I'd prefer an example
> rather than an explanation here as the various primary language subtags here
> get me muddled (sorry)!
> * * *
> >       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
> >          "extended language range" and almost always consists of a
> >          single, primary language subtag.  For example, the subtag
> >          sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the
> >          tag "hak" (Hakka).
> * * *
> You might move your introductory comment about the "original primary
> language subtag's" being replaced by its "Preferred-Value, if there is . . .
> " one.  However I'd prefer an example; I think an example would make this
> confusing text more clear.
>
> Best,
>
> C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
> * * *
> >       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of
> >          subtags consists of a subtag of the same type.  Most of these
> >          non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
> >          country name or designation has changed or are clerical
> >          corrections to ISO 639-1.
> >Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

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I believe your comments are on older text. Can you look at the newer text t=
o see whether you would have the same comments?<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<b=
r>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 16:01, CE Whiteh=
ead <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcatha=
r@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex=
; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>
Sorry, I sent this previously with the signature above=C2=A0many of my=C2=
=A0comments; once more here are comments on section 4.5; item # 3 (see <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.h=
tml</a>) for the text; and<br>

sorry I took so long to correct this; I have been away from the computer du=
e to other obligations!);<br>
I don&#39;t know if it&#39;s too late to suggest these changes or not:<div =
class=3D"im"><br><br>From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:addison%20at%20DOMAIN.HIDDEN" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">addiso=
n at amazon.com</a>&gt; <br>
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700 <br></div><div class=3D"im">&gt;=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is =
one.<br></div>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For extended language sub=
tags, the original primary language<div class=3D"im">
<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtag is also replaced if the=
re is a primary language subtag in<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 the Preferred-Value.<br></div>* * *<br>This second sentence,<br>&quot;F=
or extended language subtags, the original primary language<div class=3D"im=
">
<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtag is also replaced if there i=
s a primary language subtag in<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the =
Preferred-Value.&quot; <br></div><div class=3D"im">is confusing!=C2=A0 I th=
ink this information would be clearer if it waited till the next section; t=
hat&#39;s my personal preference; also=C2=A0I&#39;d prefer an example rathe=
r than an explanation here as the various primary language subtags here get=
 me muddled (sorry)!<br>
* * *<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 The field-body of=
 the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;extended language range&quot; and almost =
always consists of a<br></div>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 single, primary language subtag.=C2=A0 For example, the sub=
tag<div class=3D"im">
<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sequence &qu=
ot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the<br>&gt;=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 tag &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka=
).=C2=A0 <br></div>* * *<br>You might move your introductory comment=C2=A0a=
bout the &quot;original primary language subtag&#39;s&quot; being replaced =
by its &quot;Preferred-Value, if there is . . . &quot; one.=C2=A0 However I=
&#39;d prefer an example; I=C2=A0think an example would make this confusing=
 text more clear.<div class=3D"im">
<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Best,<br>
=C2=A0<br>
C. E. Whitehead<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cewcathar@hotmai=
l.com</a><br></div><div class=3D"im">* * *<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other ty=
pes of<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtags con=
sists of a subtag of the same type.=C2=A0 Most of these<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the<br></div>=
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 country name or desig=
nation has changed or are clerical<div class=3D"im"><br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 corrections to ISO 639-1.<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt;Addison Phillips<br>Globalization Architect -- =
Lab126<br><br><br><br></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

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I think I have problems with the text at:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5=20

=20

Looked quite quickly!

--C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com


Date: Tue=2C 12 May 2009 16:43:35 -0700
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
From: mark@macchiato.com
To: cewcathar@hotmail.com
CC: ltru@ietf.org

I believe your comments are on older text. Can you look at the newer text t=
o see whether you would have the same comments?
Mark



On Tue=2C May 12=2C 2009 at 16:01=2C CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com> w=
rote:


Sorry=2C I sent this previously with the signature above many of my comment=
s=3B once more here are comments on section 4.5=3B item # 3 (see http://www=
.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html) for the text=3B and
sorry I took so long to correct this=3B I have been away from the computer =
due to other obligations!)=3B
I don't know if it's too late to suggest these changes or not:


From: "Phillips=2C Addison" <addison at amazon.com>=20
Date: Tue=2C 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700=20

>   3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one.
>       For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language

>       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
>       the Preferred-Value.
* * *
This second sentence=2C
"For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language

       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
       the Preferred-Value."=20

is confusing!  I think this information would be clearer if it waited till =
the next section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also I'd prefer an exa=
mple rather than an explanation here as the various primary language subtag=
s here get me muddled (sorry)!
* * *
>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>          "extended language range" and almost always consists of a
>          single=2C primary language subtag.  For example=2C the subtag

>          sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the
>          tag "hak" (Hakka). =20
* * *
You might move your introductory comment about the "original primary langua=
ge subtag's" being replaced by its "Preferred-Value=2C if there is . . . " =
one.  However I'd prefer an example=3B I think an example would make this c=
onfusing text more clear.

=20
Best=2C
=20
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

* * *
>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of
>          subtags consists of a subtag of the same type.  Most of these

>          non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
>          country name or designation has changed or are clerical

>          corrections to ISO 639-1.

>Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126




_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



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<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
I think I have&nbsp=3Bproblems with the text at:<BR><BR><A href=3D"http://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5">http://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5</A>&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Looked quite quickly!<BR>
--C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR>
<HR id=3DstopSpelling>
Date: Tue=2C 12 May 2009 16:43:35 -0700<BR>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: =
updated editor's copy available<BR>From: mark@macchiato.com<BR>To: cewcatha=
r@hotmail.com<BR>CC: ltru@ietf.org<BR><BR>I believe your comments are on ol=
der text. Can you look at the newer text to see whether you would have the =
same comments?<BR><BR clear=3Dall>Mark<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DEC_gmail_quote>On Tue=2C May 12=2C 2009 at 16:01=2C CE Whitehe=
ad <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar=
@hotmail.com</A>&gt=3B</SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3DEC_gmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex">
<DIV>Sorry=2C I sent this previously with the signature above&nbsp=3Bmany o=
f my&nbsp=3Bcomments=3B once more here are comments on section 4.5=3B item =
# 3 (see <A href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12=
587.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html</=
A>) for the text=3B and<BR>sorry I took so long to correct this=3B I have b=
een away from the computer due to other obligations!)=3B<BR>I don't know if=
 it's too late to suggest these changes or not:
<DIV class=3DEC_im><BR><BR>From: "Phillips=2C Addison" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mai=
lto:addison%20at%20DOMAIN.HIDDEN" rel=3Dnofollow>addison at amazon.com</A>&=
gt=3B <BR>Date: Tue=2C 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700 <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DEC_im>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B 3.&nbsp=3B Subtags are replaced b=
y their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one.<BR></DIV>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B For extended language subtags=2C the original p=
rimary language
<DIV class=3DEC_im><BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in<BR>&gt=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value.<BR=
></DIV>* * *<BR>This second sentence=2C<BR>"For extended language subtags=
=2C the original primary language
<DIV class=3DEC_im><BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B sub=
tag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in<BR>&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value." <BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DEC_im>is confusing!&nbsp=3B I think this information would be =
clearer if it waited till the next section=3B that's my personal preference=
=3B also&nbsp=3BI'd prefer an example rather than an explanation here as th=
e various primary language subtags here get me muddled (sorry)!<BR>* * *<BR=
>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B The field=
-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B "extended language r=
ange" and almost always consists of a<BR></DIV>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B single=2C primary langu=
age subtag.&nbsp=3B For example=2C the subtag
<DIV class=3DEC_im><BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be r=
eplaced with the<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B tag "hak" (Hakka).&nbsp=3B <BR></DIV>* * *<BR>You m=
ight move your introductory comment&nbsp=3Babout the "original primary lang=
uage subtag's" being replaced by its "Preferred-Value=2C if there is . . . =
" one.&nbsp=3B However I'd prefer an example=3B I&nbsp=3Bthink an example w=
ould make this confusing text more clear.
<DIV class=3DEC_im><BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Best=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>C. E. Whitehead<B=
R><A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR></D=
IV>
<DIV class=3DEC_im>* * *<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types=
 of<BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B subtags consists of a subtag of the same type.&nbsp=3B Most of these<BR=
></DIV>
<DIV class=3DEC_im>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where =
the<BR></DIV>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B &nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B country name or designation has changed or are clerical
<DIV class=3DEC_im><BR>&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B corrections to ISO 639-1.<BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DEC_im>&gt=3BAddison Phillips<BR>Globalization Architect -- Lab=
126<BR><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV><BR>________________________________________=
_______<BR>Ltru mailing list<BR><A href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.=
org</A><BR><A href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru">https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</A><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR></body>
</html>=

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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No, what I am referring to is my text sent:

fromMark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>toRandy Presuhn <
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>,
Martin Duerst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
ccLTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
dateMon, May 11, 2009 at 16:31subjectRe: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's
copy available
Mark


On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 16:50, CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com> wrote:

>  I think I have problems with the text at:
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5
>
> Looked quite quickly!
> --C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
> ------------------------------
> Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:43:35 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> From: mark@macchiato.com
> To: cewcathar@hotmail.com
> CC: ltru@ietf.org
>
>
> I believe your comments are on older text. Can you look at the newer text
> to see whether you would have the same comments?
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 16:01, CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Sorry, I sent this previously with the signature above many of my comments;
> once more here are comments on section 4.5; item # 3 (see
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html) for the
> text; and
> sorry I took so long to correct this; I have been away from the computer
> due to other obligations!);
> I don't know if it's too late to suggest these changes or not:
>
> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison at amazon.com<addison%20at%20DOMAIN.HIDDEN>>
>
> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700
> >   3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
> >       For extended language subtags, the original primary language
> >       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
> >       the Preferred-Value.
> * * *
> This second sentence,
> "For extended language subtags, the original primary language
>        subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
>        the Preferred-Value."
> is confusing!  I think this information would be clearer if it waited till
> the next section; that's my personal preference; also I'd prefer an example
> rather than an explanation here as the various primary language subtags here
> get me muddled (sorry)!
> * * *
> >       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
> >          "extended language range" and almost always consists of a
> >          single, primary language subtag.  For example, the subtag
> >          sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the
> >          tag "hak" (Hakka).
> * * *
> You might move your introductory comment about the "original primary
> language subtag's" being replaced by its "Preferred-Value, if there is . . .
> " one.  However I'd prefer an example; I think an example would make this
> confusing text more clear.
>
> Best,
>
> C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
> * * *
> >       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for all other types of
> >          subtags consists of a subtag of the same type.  Most of these
> >          non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
> >          country name or designation has changed or are clerical
> >          corrections to ISO 639-1.
> >Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>

--000e0cd2dec65226ff0469bfdc9e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No, what I am referring to is my text sent:<br><br><table class=3D"cf gJ" c=
ellpadding=3D"0"><tbody><tr class=3D"UszGxc"><td class=3D"gG"><span class=
=3D"gI">from</span></td><td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gL"><span class=3D"gI"><=
span class=3D"ik"><img class=3D"de" id=3D"upi" name=3D"upi" src=3D"images/c=
leardot.gif" height=3D"16" width=3D"16"></span><span class=3D"gD" style=3D"=
color: rgb(121, 6, 25);">Mark Davis</span> <span class=3D"go">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;</span></span></td=
>
</tr><tr><td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gG"><span class=3D"gI">to</span></td><t=
d colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gL"><span class=3D"gI"><span class=3D"ik"><img cla=
ss=3D"de" id=3D"upi" name=3D"upi" src=3D"images/cleardot.gif" height=3D"16"=
 width=3D"16"></span>Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;,<br>
<span class=3D"ik"><img class=3D"de" id=3D"upi" name=3D"upi" src=3D"images/=
cleardot.gif" height=3D"16" width=3D"16"></span>Martin Duerst &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;<br></span=
></td></tr><tr>
<td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gG"><span class=3D"gI">cc</span></td><td colspan=
=3D"2" class=3D"gL"><span class=3D"gI"><span class=3D"ik"><img class=3D"de"=
 id=3D"upi" name=3D"upi" src=3D"images/cleardot.gif" height=3D"16" width=3D=
"16"></span>LTRU Working Group &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br>
</span></td></tr><tr><td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gG"><span class=3D"gI">date=
</span></td><td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gL"><span class=3D"gI"><span class=
=3D"ik"><img src=3D"images/cleardot.gif" height=3D"16" width=3D"16"></span>=
Mon, May 11, 2009 at 16:31</span></td>
</tr><tr><td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gG"><span class=3D"gI">subject</span></=
td><td colspan=3D"2" class=3D"gL"><span class=3D"gI"><span class=3D"ik"><im=
g src=3D"images/cleardot.gif" height=3D"16" width=3D"16"></span>Re: [Ltru] =
Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available</span></td>
</tr></tbody></table><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 16:50, CE Whiteh=
ead <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcatha=
r@hotmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex=
; padding-left: 1ex;">




<div>
I think I have=C2=A0problems with the text at:<br><br><a href=3D"http://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5" target=3D"_blank">=
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5</a>=C2=A0=
<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Looked quite quickly!<br>
--C. E. Whitehead<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cewcathar@hotmai=
l.com</a><br><div class=3D"hm">
<hr>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:43:35 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: up=
dated editor&#39;s copy available<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato=
.com" target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a><br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:cew=
cathar@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a><br>
CC: <a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a></d=
iv><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br>I believe your comments are on=
 older text. Can you look at the newer text to see whether you would have t=
he same comments?<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br><br><br>
<div>On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 16:01, CE Whitehead <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cewcathar@hotmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>Sorry, I sent this previously with the signature above=C2=A0many of my=
=C2=A0comments; once more here are comments on section 4.5; item # 3 (see <=
a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg1258=
7.html</a>) for the text; and<br>
sorry I took so long to correct this; I have been away from the computer du=
e to other obligations!);<br>I don&#39;t know if it&#39;s too late to sugge=
st these changes or not:
<div><br><br>From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addi=
son%20at%20DOMAIN.HIDDEN" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">addison at ama=
zon.com</a>&gt; <br>Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 11:07:16 -0700 <br></div>
<div>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Valu=
e, if there is one.<br></div>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For extend=
ed language subtags, the original primary language
<div><br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtag is also replaced i=
f there is a primary language subtag in<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 the Preferred-Value.<br></div>* * *<br>This second sentence,<br>&=
quot;For extended language subtags, the original primary language
<div><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtag is also replaced if th=
ere is a primary language subtag in<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 the Preferred-Value.&quot; <br></div>
<div>is confusing!=C2=A0 I think this information would be clearer if it wa=
ited till the next section; that&#39;s my personal preference; also=C2=A0I&=
#39;d prefer an example rather than an explanation here as the various prim=
ary language subtags here get me muddled (sorry)!<br>
* * *<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 The field-body of=
 the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 &quot;extended language range&quot; and almost =
always consists of a<br></div>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 single, primary language subtag.=C2=A0 For example, the sub=
tag
<div><br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 sequenc=
e &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the<br>&gt;=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 tag &quot;hak&quot; (Ha=
kka).=C2=A0 <br></div>* * *<br>You might move your introductory comment=C2=
=A0about the &quot;original primary language subtag&#39;s&quot; being repla=
ced by its &quot;Preferred-Value, if there is . . . &quot; one.=C2=A0 Howev=
er I&#39;d prefer an example; I=C2=A0think an example would make this confu=
sing text more clear.
<div><br>=C2=A0<br>Best,<br>=C2=A0<br>C. E. Whitehead<br><a href=3D"mailto:=
cewcathar@hotmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a><br></div=
>
<div>* * *<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 The field-bo=
dy of the Preferred-Value for all other types of<br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 subtags consists of a subtag of the same typ=
e.=C2=A0 Most of these<br></div>
<div>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 non-extlang=
 subtags are either Region subtags where the<br></div>&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 country name or designation has changed o=
r are clerical
<div><br>&gt;=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 correct=
ions to ISO 639-1.<br></div>
<div>&gt;Addison Phillips<br>Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br><br><br><=
br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>Ltru =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@iet=
f.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br><br></blockquote></div><br>=
</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd2dec65226ff0469bfdc9e--

From doug@ewellic.org  Tue May 12 20:39:26 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:40:53 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
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John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

>>> 1] What should be done with the existing registry of templates at
>>> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html?
>
> Nothing.  It will grow as new subtags are registered.

There might be one issue related to this, though.  While the LTRU 
process drags on, the continuing efforts of standards bodies and 
individual requesters on ietf-languages may result in new and/or changed 
subtags in the existing Registry that don't appear in draft-4645bis. 
This has already happened as a result of the latest batch of ISO 15924 
script codes, including 'Zinh' and five others.

According to the co-chairs, we can't just "AUTH48" these into the new 
Registry; they need to be re-added, exceptionally, by ietf-languages and 
the Reviewer.  In the case of changes mandated by changes to core 
standards, the outcome will probably be the same, but in the case of 
individually requested variants, this could potentially result in the 
same debate being held twice, possibly with different results.

Given all this, I don't know whether the registration forms for such 
re-registered subtags might need to be posted on the IANA site a second 
time.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ



From addison@amazon.com  Tue May 12 23:07:21 2009
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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:08:42 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
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From doug@ewellic.org  Wed May 13 05:54:49 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis(Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
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"Phillips, Addison" <addison at amazon dot com> wrote:

> Well, we're not done yet. Write a rule in 4645bis to cover these so 
> that there is no silly work to do by the LSR. It should be pretty 
> straight forward:

Draft-4645bis is done, at least in theory.  It's waiting for an external 
party -- that'd be draft-4646bis -- before being progressed to the IESG. 
I don't know if we want to reopen it at this stage, particularly since 
13th-hour LC comments are coming in now for the document that is still 
open.  But I will make a change if the co-chairs and AD are OK with it. 
I don't like silly work either, and I'm not keen on hearing the Reviewer 
complain about this.

> Registrations completed under RFC 4646 after this document was frozen 
> but before the registry was updated MUST be incorporated by IANA in 
> the order in which they were received (as determined by their 
> File-Date record) into the new registry as part of the update process. 
> Registrations after date yyyy-mm-dd are the ones to be scrutinized by 
> IANA.

If we were to add something, I'd be OK with this particular wording, 
except that "frozen" worries me a little -- I don't think that's defined 
anywhere, and obviously if we make a change now, that "unfreezes" the 
document, so it won't help with the registrations made a month or two 
('Zinh' and company).

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 07:32:38 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis(Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Wed May 13 10:52:26 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: [IANA #235907] Last Call:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
>
> Well, we're not done yet. Write a rule in 4645bis to cover these
> so that there is no silly work to do by the LSR. It should be pretty straight forward:
> 
> ---
> Registrations completed under RFC 4646 after this document was frozen
> but before the registry was updated MUST be incorporated by IANA in the
> order in which they were received (as determined by their File-Date record)
> into the new registry as part of the update process. Registrations after
> date yyyy-mm-dd are the ones to be scrutinized by IANA.
> ---

As co-chair:

NO WAY.  Re-opening the document to make this kind of change after
IETF last call is not something I would be willing to even consider.
The amount of work and delay caused by doing it would be far greater
than the amount of "extra" work for all those registrations that
have been inundating ietf-languages@iana.org.  Bad tradeoff.

Randy


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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: <drafts-lastcall@icann.org>
References: <RT-Ticket-235907@icann.org> <20090413122553.EAF1028C0FC@core3.amsl.com> <rt-3.8.3pre1-28340-1242160061-436.235907-7-0@icann.org>
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Cc: iesg@ietf.org, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, mark.davis@google.com, addison@inter-locale.com, ltru-chairs@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ltru] [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP
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Hi -

> From: "Amanda Baber via RT" <drafts-lastcall@icann.org>
> Cc: <addison@inter-locale.com>; <mark.davis@google.com>; <ltru-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; <iesg@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:27 PM
> Subject: [IANA #235907] Last Call: draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis (Tags for Identifying Languages) to BCP 
...
> 1] What should be done with the existing registry of templates at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html?

Nothing.  It will continue to grow as new subtags are registered.

> 2] What should be done with the existing (but empty) Language Tag 
> Extension Registry at
> http://www.iana.org/assignments/language-tag-extensions-registry?

Nothing.  It will grow if extensions are registered.

Please let us know if any additional clarifications are needed.

Randy Presuhn
ltru co-chair


From cewcathar@hotmail.com  Thu May 14 15:06:20 2009
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From: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Hi=2C Mark=2C as far as I know I went to the most updated versions of item =
3=2C section 4.5 available online as of the 12th.

=20

I went to your URL (http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization)=
 and also responded to the May 11th email message you cited=3B=20

however=2C in my email back to you on the 12th=2C=20

oops=3B I did goof there=3B=20

I wrote that message as the library computer I was using was closing--

and=2C what I meant to say was that I do not have problems with the text in=
 item 3 of section 4.5 of the draft at ltru (which does not have your updat=
es yet)=3B see:

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5

=20

=20

"  3.  Subtags of type 'extlang' SHOULD be mapped to their Preferred-
       Value.  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
       "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary
       language subtag.  For example=2C the subtag sequence"zh-hak"
       (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the tag "hak" (Hakka)."


=20

I have no problems with the above text because I do not get the confusing i=
nformation about "the original primary language subtag".

=20

The text I do have problems with is the text in your email message of

05/11 (at:

=20

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html) and also a=
vailable at your URL

( columns B and C=2C at the link:  http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-ca=
nonicalization ).

=20

My suggestion was to move the second sentence of item 3=2C

=20

"For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language
       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
       the Preferred-Value."=20

=20

to the first bullet below it (have this sentence close the first bullet).

=20

Also I think an example is needed since you have so many uses of the word "=
primary language subtag" here and this is confusing I think!  (You have the=
 extlang subtag being replaced by a primary language subtag and you also ha=
ve "the original primary language subtag" in the tag/subtag which might nee=
d to be replaced as well=3B I think an example would make it clearer what h=
appens when there is a "preferred value" for the original language subtag. =
 That's all I was saying :

=20

=20

> This second sentence=2C
> "For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language
       subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in
       the Preferred-Value."=20
> is confusing!  I think this information would be clearer if it waited til=
l the next section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also I'd=20

> prefer an example rather than an explanation here as the various primary =
language subtags here get me muddled (sorry)!
* * *
>>       *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>>          "extended language range" and almost always consists of a
>>          single=2C primary language subtag.  For example=2C the subtag
>>          sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the
>>          tag "hak" (Hakka). =20
* * *
> You might move your introductory comment about the "original primary lang=
uage subtag's" being replaced by its "Preferred-

> Value=2C if there is . . . " one.  However I'd prefer an example=3B I thi=
nk an example would make this confusing text more clear.
=20
> Best=2C
=20


> C. E. Whitehead


=20

From: Mark Davis <mark at macchiato.com>=20

Date: Tue=2C 12 May 2009 16:57:42 -0700
=20

> No=2C what I am referring to is my text sent:















. . .

=20


> date

Mon=2C May 11=2C 2009 at 16:31


> subject

Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available





> Mark


>> On Tue=2C May 12=2C 2009 at 16:50=2C CE Whitehead <cewcathar at hotmail.=
com> wrote:
>> I think I have problems with the text at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5=20
=20
I meant to say I have no problems with this text=2C although it is not quit=
e as complete as the updated text!



>> Looked quite quickly!
Obviously!
=20
Best=2C=20
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
>> --C. E. Whitehead
>> cewcathar at hotmail.com

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.hmmessage P
{
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padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<BR>Hi=2C Mark=2C as far as I know I went to the most updated versions of i=
tem 3=2C section 4.5 available online as of the 12th.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I went to your URL (<A href=3D"http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canoni=
calization">http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization</A>)&nbs=
p=3Band also responded to&nbsp=3Bthe May 11th email message you cited=3B&nb=
sp=3B<BR>
however=2C&nbsp=3Bin my email back to you on the 12th=2C <BR>
oops=3B I did goof there=3B <BR>
I wrote that message as the library computer I was using was closing--<BR>
and=2C what I meant to say was&nbsp=3Bthat I do not have problems with the =
text in item 3 of section 4.5 of the draft at ltru (which does not have you=
r updates yet)=3B see:<BR>
<A href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.=
5">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5</A><BR=
>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
"&nbsp=3B 3.&nbsp=3B Subtags of type 'extlang' SHOULD be mapped to their Pr=
eferred-<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Value.&nbsp=3B=
 The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B "extended language range" and typically=
 maps to a primary<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B lang=
uage subtag.&nbsp=3B For example=2C the subtag sequence"zh-hak"<BR>&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replac=
ed with the tag "hak" (Hakka)."<BR><BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I have no problems with the above text because I do not get the confusing i=
nformation about "the original primary language subtag".<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
The text I do have problems with is the text in your email message of<BR>
05/11 (at:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
<A href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html"=
>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12587.html</A>) and a=
lso available at your URL<BR>
( columns B and C=2C at the link:&nbsp=3B <A href=3D"http://www.macchiato.c=
om/unicode/ltru-canonicalization">http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-can=
onicalization</A>&nbsp=3B).<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
My suggestion was to&nbsp=3Bmove the second sentence of item 3=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
"For extended language subtags=2C the original primary language<BR>&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B subtag is also replaced if there i=
s a primary language subtag in<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value." <BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
to the first bullet below it (have this sentence close the first bullet).<B=
R>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Also I think an example is needed since you have so many uses of the word "=
primary language subtag" here&nbsp=3Band this is confusing I think!&nbsp=3B=
 (You have the extlang subtag being replaced by a primary language subtag a=
nd you also have "the original primary language subtag" in the tag/subtag w=
hich might need to be replaced as well=3B I think an example would make it =
clearer what happens when there is a "preferred value" for the original lan=
guage subtag.&nbsp=3B That's all I was saying :<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&gt=3B This second sentence=2C<BR>&gt=3B "For extended language subtags=2C =
the original primary language<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in<BR>=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the Preferred-Value." <BR>=
&gt=3B is confusing!&nbsp=3B I think this information would be clearer if i=
t waited till the next section=3B that's my personal preference=3B also&nbs=
p=3BI'd <BR>
&gt=3B prefer an example rather than an explanation here as the various pri=
mary language subtags here get me muddled (sorry)!<BR>* * *<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B=
&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B *&nbsp=3B The field-body o=
f the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nb=
sp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B "extended language ra=
nge" and almost always consists of a<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B single=2C primary langu=
age subtag.&nbsp=3B For example=2C the subtag<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B sequence "zh-ha=
k" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nb=
sp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B tag "hak" (Ha=
kka).&nbsp=3B <BR>* * *<BR>&gt=3B You might move your introductory comment&=
nbsp=3Babout the "original primary language subtag's" being replaced by its=
 "Preferred-<BR>
&gt=3B Value=2C if there is . . . " one.&nbsp=3B However I'd prefer an exam=
ple=3B I&nbsp=3Bthink an example would make this confusing text more clear.=
<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>&gt=3B Best=2C<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR><BR>
&gt=3B C. E. Whitehead<BR><BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in"><FONT color=3D#00=
0000><FONT size=3D3><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">From: Mark Davis &lt=3B<=
/FONT></FONT></FONT><A href=3D"mailto:mark@DOMAIN.HIDDEN"><FONT face=3D"Tim=
es New Roman" size=3D3>mark at macchiato.com</FONT></A><FONT size=3D3><FONT=
 color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">&gt=3B </FONT></FONT></FONT=
></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in"><FONT size=3D3><F=
ONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"></FONT></FONT></FONT></P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in"><FONT size=3D3><F=
ONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">Date: Tue=2C 12 May 2009=
 16:57:42 -0700</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.25in"><FONT size=3D3><F=
ONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">&nbsp=3B</FONT></FONT></=
FONT></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt=3B TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3></FO=
NT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT co=
lor=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">&gt=3B No=2C what I am referri=
ng to is my text sent:</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>

<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
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t">
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi></SPAN></FONT>=
</FONT></FONT><BR></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
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t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT fac=
e=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgd><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: #790619"></SPA=
N></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi></SPAN></FONT>=
</FONT></FONT></P></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
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t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi>. . .</SPAN></=
FONT></FONT></FONT></P></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp=3B</P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi>&gt=3B date</S=
PAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi>Mon=2C May 11=
=2C 2009 at 16:31</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi>&gt=3B subject=
</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B PADDING-RIGHT: 0in=3B BORDER-TOP: #ec=
e9d8=3B PADDING-LEFT: 0in=3B PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in=3B BORDER-LEFT: #ece9d8=3B=
 PADDING-TOP: 0in=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparen=
t" colSpan=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D3><FONT col=
or=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN class=3Dgi>Re: [Ltru] Tic=
ket #45: updated editor's copy available</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P></T=
D></TR>
<TR height=3D0>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-LEFT: #=
ece9d8=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=3D=
31><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3></FONT></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-LEFT: #=
ece9d8=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=3D=
127><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3></FONT></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-LEFT: #=
ece9d8=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=3D=
331><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3></FONT></TD>
<TD style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-TOP: #ece9d8=3B BORDER-LEFT: #=
ece9d8=3B BORDER-BOTTOM: #ece9d8=3B BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" width=3D=
11><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3></FONT></TD></TR=
></TBODY></TABLE></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt"><BR clear=3Dall><FONT s=
ize=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">&gt=3B Mark<BR=
><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>&gt=3B&gt=3B On Tue=2C May 12=2C 2009 at 16=
:50=2C CE Whitehead &lt=3B</FONT><A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar%20at%20hotmail=
.com"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>cewcathar at hotmail.com</FON=
T></A><FONT size=3D3><FONT color=3D#000000><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">&=
gt=3B wrote:</FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3D"Times New =
Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>&gt=3B&gt=3B I think I have&nbsp=3Bproblems=
 with the text at:</FONT><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 siz=
e=3D3><BR></FONT>&gt=3B&gt=3B <A href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-i=
etf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5"><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>ht=
tp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-4.5</FONT></A><=
FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>&nbsp=3B<BR>&nbsp=3B=
</FONT></P><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>
<FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3D#000000 size=3D3>I meant to say I ha=
ve no problems with this text=2C although it is not quite as complete as th=
e updated text!<BR>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><BR></FONT><BR>&gt=3B&gt=
=3B Looked quite quickly!</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Obviously!</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">&nbsp=3B</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Best=2C </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">C. E. Whitehead</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><A href=3D"mailto:cewcat=
har@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B --C. E. Whitehea=
d<BR></FONT>&gt=3B&gt=3B <A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar%20at%20hotmail.com"><F=
ONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>cewcathar at hotmail.com</FONT></A></=
P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt=3B TEXT-ALIGN: center" =
align=3Dcenter><EM></EM></DIV></body>
</html>=

--_9b5d8d32-f529-4f23-baf5-54245b755af0_--

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Thu May 14 19:43:56 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #36: AD Issue #3: rules for UN M.49 codes
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Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:56 AM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Ticket #36: AD Issue #3: rules for UN M.49 codes
...
> (as editor)
> 
> I have reverted the text in 2.2.4 and changed SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT in section 3.4.
...

Since there's been no further discussion of this issue, I've
marked it "closed" in the issue tracker.

Randy


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs. UNM.49
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Hi -

> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #40: AD Issue #7: section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs. UN M.49
> ...
> > Incorporating both changes:
> > 
> >    16.  UN M.49 has codes for both countries and areas (such as '276'
> >         for Germany) and geographical regions and sub-regions (such as
> >         '150' for Europe).  UN M.49 country or area codes for which
> >         there is no corresponding ISO 3166-1 code SHOULD NOT be
> >         registered, except as a surrogate for an ISO 3166-1 code that is
> >         blocked from registration by an existing subtag.
> > 
> >         If such a code
> >         becomes necessary, then the
> > Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL petition the registration authority for ISO
> >         3166-1
> > to assign a code to the
> >         region.  If the petition for a code assignment by ISO 3166-1 is
> >         refused or not acted on in a timely manner, the
> > Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL use the
> > registration
> >         process described in Section 3.5
> > <http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-3.5>
> >         to register
> >         the corresponding UN M.49 code.  This way, UN M.49 codes remain
> >         available as the value of last resort in cases where ISO 3166-1
> >         reassigns a deprecated value in the registry.

Seeing no further discussion, and apparent rough consensus around
this text, I've marked this issue "closed" in the tracker.

Randy


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Thu May 14 19:55:07 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #43: AD Issue #10: File-Date value
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Hi -

Seeing no further discussion, I've marked this issue "closed"
with the resolution to change text in section 3.1.2) to read:

The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record.
This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field
whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record
contains a date (see 5.1) making it possible to easily recognize
different versions of the registry.

Randy


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #41: AD Issue #8: section 3.5 SHOULD vs. MUST
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Hi -

> From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #41: AD Issue #8: section 3.5 SHOULD vs. MUST
...
> Having re-read that thread, and these more recent postings, I'm
> declaring rough consensus for "no change".
> 
> HOWEVER, I'm leaving open the possibility of adding a clarification
> that the passage in question  is talking about the original request
> submitted for review, and not the (potentially) resulting request
> forwarded to IANA.  If you believe such an addition would be
> helpful, please make your proposals *now*.

Having seen no further discussion, I've marked this issue "closed"
with a resolution of "no change".

Randy


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Thu May 14 20:04:00 2009
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Hi -

Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)

Randy


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Thu May 14 20:10:26 2009
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Hi -

It's time to wrap this one up.  Editors, please post to
the mailing list your current understanding of the new
text to resolve this item.  (I see there have been some
minor adjustments discussed along the way.)  Everyone:
is this text something you can live with?

Perfection is antithetical to completion.

Randy


From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Fri May 15 03:20:36 2009
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Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
originally raised, is still there:

[ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, =B3ISO 639-2:1998.
Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code,
first edition,=B2 1998.

The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO references.
I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do so
regularly here.

(not that this is a big deal)

    /kent k


Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:

> Hi -
>=20
> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>=20
> Randy
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



From cewcathar@hotmail.com  Sat May 16 09:36:14 2009
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Hi!

From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>=20

To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru at ietf.org>=20

Date: Thu=2C 14 May 2009 20:15:17 -0700=20

> It's time to wrap this one up.  Editors=2C please post to
> the mailing list your current understanding of the new
> text to resolve this item.  (I see there have been some
> minor adjustments discussed along the way.)  Everyone:
> is this text something you can live with?
The original text in Addison's draft 21 is o.k.=3B it is not as complete as=
 Mark's!

=20

Mark's is complete but a little confusing.

=20

Leaving it as Addison has it is o.k. here.

=20

Alternately=2C you can modify Mark's replacement text slightly.

=20

Either way.  I prefer the 2nd but it's no big deal.
> Perfection is antithetical to completion.

> Randy


* * *

Addison's text for 4.5=2C item 3
   3.  Subtags of type 'extlang' SHOULD be mapped to their Preferred-
       Value.  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
       "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary
       language subtag.  For example=2C the subtag sequence "zh-hak"
       (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the tag "hak" (Hakka).

=20

* * *

Mark's replacement text with my amendments (except I have not come up with =
an example and I think the text in brackets should be deleted):
3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one.=20


* The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended langua=
ge range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example=2C t=
he subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the t=
ag "hak" (Hakka).
{ MOVED FROM ABOVE TO HERE AND MODIFIED SLIGHTLY--EXAMPLE ALSO NEEDED--OR C=
AN BE REPLACED BY EXAMPLE=3B CONFUSING TExT IS BRACKETED:  "The original pr=
imary language subtag for the extlang is also replaced [if there is a prima=
ry language subtag in the Preferred-Value]."=20
* Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the count=
ry name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1.

=20

--C. E=2C Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com=20


--_f416b977-9e91-44b6-ac5b-1905f61fd760_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Hi!<BR>
From: "Randy Presuhn" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">=
randy_presuhn at mindspring.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>
To: "LTRU Working Group" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:ltru@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">ltru a=
t ietf.org</A>&gt=3B <BR>
Date: Thu=2C 14 May 2009 20:15:17 -0700 <BR>
&gt=3B It's time to wrap this one up.&nbsp=3B Editors=2C please post to<BR>=
&gt=3B the mailing list your current understanding of the new<BR>&gt=3B tex=
t to resolve this item.&nbsp=3B (I see there have been some<BR>&gt=3B minor=
 adjustments discussed along the way.)&nbsp=3B Everyone:<BR>&gt=3B is this =
text something you can live with?<BR>The original text in Addison's draft 2=
1 is o.k.=3B it is not as complete as Mark's!<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Mark's is complete but a little confusing.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Leaving it as Addison has it is o.k. here.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Alternately=2C you can modify Mark's replacement text slightly.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Either way.&nbsp=3B I prefer the 2nd but it's no big deal.<BR>&gt=3B Perfec=
tion is antithetical to completion.<BR><BR>&gt=3B Randy<BR><BR>
* * *<BR>
Addison's text for 4.5=2C item&nbsp=3B3<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B 3.&nbsp=3B Subt=
ags of type 'extlang' SHOULD be mapped to their Preferred-<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Value.&nbsp=3B The field-body of the Pr=
eferred-Value for extlangs is an<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary<BR>&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B language subtag.&nbsp=3B For=
 example=2C the subtag sequence "zh-hak"<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with the tag "hak"=
 (Hakka).<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
* * *<BR>
Mark's replacement text with my amendments (except I have not come up with =
an example and I think the text in brackets should be deleted):<BR>3. Subta=
gs are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one. <BR>
<BR>* The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended la=
nguage range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example=
=2C the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) would be replaced with =
the tag "hak" (Hakka).<BR>{ MOVED FROM ABOVE TO HERE AND MODIFIED SLIGHTLY-=
-EXAMPLE ALSO NEEDED--OR CAN BE REPLACED BY EXAMPLE=3B CONFUSING TExT IS BR=
ACKETED:&nbsp=3B "The original primary language subtag for the extlang is a=
lso replaced [if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value]=
." <BR>* Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where th=
e country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 63=
9-1.<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
--C. E=2C Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A> <BR><BR>=
</body>
</html>=

--_f416b977-9e91-44b6-ac5b-1905f61fd760_--

From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 17 10:08:27 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com> wrote:

> Everyone: is this text something you can live with?

CE Whitehead <cewcathar at hotmail dot com> replied:

> The original text in Addison's draft 21 is o.k.; it is not as complete 
> as Mark's!
>
> Mark's is complete but a little confusing.
>
> Leaving it as Addison has it is o.k. here.
>
> Alternately, you can modify Mark's replacement text slightly.
>
> Either way.  I prefer the 2nd but it's no big deal.

I read this as "The existing text is not perfect, but I can live with 
it."

That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP trying 
to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should do as Randy 
has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless there is some 
piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading to the point of 
being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

Enough already.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From cowan@ccil.org  Sun May 17 13:02:14 2009
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Subject: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
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Doug Ewell scripsit:

> That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP
> trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should
> do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless
> there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading
> to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

+1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY
intolerable.

-- 
Man has no body distinct from his soul,              John Cowan
for that called body is a portion of the soul        cowan@ccil.org
discerned by the five senses,                        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake

From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 17 14:35:29 2009
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John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

> ... if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166 Registration 
> Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

That should be a quick, easy, and non-controversial correction to make.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 17 19:56:14 2009
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Subject: [Ltru] Re-opening issue #40  (was: ABSOLUTELY intolerable)
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Hi -

As co-chair:
I promised I'd declare this "too late" unless it could be proven
to cause interoperability problems.  But since this is apparently
so critical to interoperability that you've been reduced to shouting,
we'll treat this is a request to re-open issue #40.

So, issue #40 is reopened.

I'd REALLY appreciate it if folks would include issue numbers
on their subject lines.  I've got other stuff to do, so I'll leave it
to the document shepherd to decide when to declare consensus
on this and close the issue.

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:03 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
>
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
> 
> > That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP
> > trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should
> > do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless
> > there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading
> > to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.
> 
> +1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
> Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY
> intolerable.
> 
> -- 
> Man has no body distinct from his soul,              John Cowan
> for that called body is a portion of the soul        cowan@ccil.org
> discerned by the five senses,                        http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Mon May 18 02:16:25 2009
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(as document shepherd)

John, can you say exactly what changes to what document are necessary in 
your view, and which issue this relates to, or point to a mail where 
that has been done?

[Everybody, please make sure issue numbers don't get lost in mail 
threads, or get added back in when getting back to a specific issue.]

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/18 5:03, John Cowan wrote:
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
>> That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP
>> trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should
>> do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless
>> there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading
>> to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.
>
> +1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
> Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY
> intolerable.
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: [Ltru] Issue 40: Re: Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE: Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
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[co-chair and shepherd hat on]

Okay, as Randy has reopened issue 40, and I have found the relevant mail 
with the change proposal, I herewith declare that there is consensus for 
the fix below (I haven't seen anybody opposing to this factual fix), and 
instruct the editors to edit their text accordingly.

Regards,    Martin.

P.S.: Randy, can I ask you to update 
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/40? You seem to be 
particularly at ease with that tool, whereas I have repeatedly not been 
able to get my head around it. To my defense, I can prove that I have 
successfully submitted and updated bugs in Bugzilla and Redmine, but the 
tool used at the IETF, or the way it's used at the IETF (or maybe it's 
just me), somehow always escapes my grip (at the moment, all IETF sites 
are very slow (excusable, it's still Sunday for them), and it's 
impossible for me to log into the tracking system.

On 2009/05/05 4:48, John Cowan wrote:
> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
>
>> If this is supposed to be a new issue, I will declare it "too late"
>> unless it can be demonstrated to cause interoperability problems.
>
> The sentence in question is the 3rd sentence of bullet point 16 of
> Section 3.4.  It says that registrants SHOULD do something which
> technically is impossible, because the registration authority they
> are asked to petition does not exist.  The error is easily patched by
> s/registration authority/maintenance agency/ in 3.4-16, and leaving it
> in would be an embarrassment.  Please reconsider.
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section 2.2.9
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For the record, as a technical contributor, I agree with others that the 
sentence in question should be removed (as it already has been).

I also don't understand Addison when he writes
"Therefore, it is useful to have some documentation explaining why this 
ABNF is better."
We didn't delete the reason, the mention of the errors in the previous
ABNF is still there.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/04/29 13:42, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> The AD points out:
>
> --
> AD review issue #4 - for details see
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12399.html
>
> 4). In Section 2.2.9:
>
>      Note well: although the 'Language-Tag' production appearing in this
>      document is functionally equivalent to the one in [RFC4646], it has
>      been changed to prevent certain errors in well-formedness arising
>      from the old 'grandfathered' production. This version of the ABNF is
>      RECOMMENDED as a replacement for the older version.
>
> (nit) I suggest deleting the last sentence, as it doesn't provide any
> useful information to a reader (as the WG wants
> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21bis.txt to replace RFC 4646, it is clear that
> the WG believes that the new ABNF is better). Also I don't think it uses
> RFC 2119 keyword properly.
> --
>
> I think this is not necessary. We have had, as a user community, a long-standing problem with stale references to BCP 47. We want to help ensure that implementers and standardizers use the right ABNF. It is well-known that many implementers rely excessively or even exclusively on the ABNF to determine "what is right". Therefore, it is useful to have some documentation explaining why this ABNF is better.
>
> Proposed resolution: no change
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
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Hello Kent,

[co-chair/shepherd head on]

Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for how you 
think what currently is:

   [ISO639-2]
               International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
               2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of languages
               -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.

should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
> originally raised, is still there:
>
> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, ³ISO 639-2:1998.
> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code,
> first edition,² 1998.
>
> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO references.
> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do so
> regularly here.
>
> (not that this is a big deal)
>
>      /kent k
>
>
> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Mon May 18 03:46:16 2009
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Quoting directly from 4645bis (version 10), where this reference is ok
(I would have put the start quote a little later, in general for the ISO
references, but now that does not matter):

   [ISO639-2]
              International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
              2:1998.  Codes for the representation of names of
              languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code", October 1998.


        /kent k


Den 2009-05-18 12.21, skrev "Martin J. D=FCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>:

> Hello Kent,
>=20
> [co-chair/shepherd head on]
>=20
> Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for how you
> think what currently is:
>=20
>    [ISO639-2]
>                International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
>                2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of languages
>                -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.
>=20
> should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.
>=20
> Regards,   Martin.
>=20
> On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
>> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
>> originally raised, is still there:
>>=20
>> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, =B3ISO 639-2:19=
98.
>> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 co=
de,
>> first edition,=B2 1998.
>>=20
>> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO references.
>> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do so
>> regularly here.
>>=20
>> (not that this is a big deal)
>>=20
>>      /kent k
>>=20
>>=20
>> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com=
>:
>>=20
>>> Hi -
>>>=20
>>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
>>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>>>=20
>>> Randy
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>=20



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[shepherd hat on]

It appears that this is the last full version of the proposed text.
Mark nodded at
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12589.html
to a small fix from Kent at
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12588.html

Is that a correct summary of the current state? There is some 
back-and-forth between Mark and CE Whitehead after that, but it's not 
clear what the result of that is.

When searching through 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21, I found the word 
"canonical" all over the place. I would suggest that some people do a 
careful read of these places, checking whether they fit together with 
the new text. In particular, if there is text elsewhere in the document 
that assumes that canonicalization may be without or with extlangs, then 
we would have to revise the text proposal below.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/12 8:31, Mark Davis wrote:
> It appears to me that we have rough consensus on the text. I'd like to see
> if we can move forward on this. That text (also in Column C of
> http://www.macchiato.com/unicode/ltru-canonicalization) is below.
>
> ===
>
> Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
> language tags SHOULD always be created and processed in a canonical form.
>
> A language tag is in a canonical form, either default or extended, when the
> tag is well-formed according the rules in<xref target="syntax"/>  and<xref
> target="sources"/>  and it has been canonicalized by applying each of the
> following steps in order, using data from the IANA registry (see<xref
> target="ianaformat"/>):
>
> 1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
> singleton subtag.
>
>     - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.
>
> 2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if
> there is one.
>
>     - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the adoption
>     of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to
>     "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or additions to this
>     document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3
>     code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>     - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant
>     tags is an "extended language range" (<xref target="RFC4647"></xref>) and
>     might consist of more than one subtag.
>
> 3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
> extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is
> a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>
>     - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
>     language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
>     example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced
>     with the tag "hak" (Hakka).
>     - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
>     country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
>     639-1.
>
>
> The canonical form has no extlang subtag. There is an alternate 'extlang
> form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language subtags that
> are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's Prefix. This form
> may be useful in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
> considered beneficial in matching or selection (see<xref
> target="choiceUsingExtlang"></xref>).
>
>     - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak',
>     which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). The
>     extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Hello Addison, Mark,

Alex, our AD, has indicated to the chairs that he would appreciate being 
able to review our progress so far even if we have not yet been able to 
address all the issues he raised.

I would therefore like to instruct you to submit version 22 of your 
draft at your earliest convenience, including the resolution I posted on 
issue 40, and, if possible without delays, also a proposed solution for 
issue 31 (either from Kent or making your own proposal).

This would leave us only with issue 45 (and possibly 31), and would 
allow Alex to check the rest, which allows for some parallelization of 
our work.

Regards,   Martin.
-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Dear All,

Concerning the point in question, may i suggest to replace the words =
"the registyration authority for ISI 3166-1" by the words "the ISO 3166 =
Maintenance Agency (ISO 3166/MA)" ?
Bien cordialement.
G=E9rard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de =
ltru-request@ietf.org
Envoy=E9 : lundi 18 mai 2009 12:46
=C0 : ltru@ietf.org
Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 51, Issue 22

If you have received this digest without all the individual message =
attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list =
subscription.  To do so, go to=20

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get =
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than =
"Re: Contents of Ltru digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. ABSOLUTELY intolerable (John Cowan)
   2. Re: ABSOLUTELY intolerable (Doug Ewell)
   3. Re-opening issue #40  (was: ABSOLUTELY intolerable)
      (Randy Presuhn)
   4. Re: ABSOLUTELY intolerable (Martin J. D?rst)
   5. Issue 40: Re: Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE: Ltru
      Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42 (Martin J. D?rst)
   6. Re: Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section
      2.2.9 (Martin J. D?rst)
   7. Re: can't find a reference for ticket #31 (Martin J. D?rst)
   8. Re: can't find a reference for ticket #31 (Kent Karlsson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:03:47 -0400
From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Subject: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <20090517200347.GA27512@mercury.ccil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

Doug Ewell scripsit:

> That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP=20
> trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should do =

> as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless there =

> is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading to the=20
> point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

+1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY =
intolerable.

--=20
Man has no body distinct from his soul,              John Cowan
for that called body is a portion of the soul        cowan@ccil.org
discerned by the five senses,                        =
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:36:54 -0600
From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <3462F84856E446BEAB6352EE5D9930F4@DGBP7M81>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"utf-8";
	reply-type=3Doriginal

John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

> ... if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166 Registration=20
> Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

That should be a quick, easy, and non-controversial correction to make.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14 =
http://www.ewellic.org =
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ?



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 20:00:29 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Ltru] Re-opening issue #40  (was: ABSOLUTELY intolerable)
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <009e01c9d764$ce1d54e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Hi -

As co-chair:
I promised I'd declare this "too late" unless it could be proven to =
cause interoperability problems.  But since this is apparently so =
critical to interoperability that you've been reduced to shouting, we'll =
treat this is a request to re-open issue #40.

So, issue #40 is reopened.

I'd REALLY appreciate it if folks would include issue numbers on their =
subject lines.  I've got other stuff to do, so I'll leave it to the =
document shepherd to decide when to declare consensus on this and close =
the issue.

Randy

----- Original Message -----=20
> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:03 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
>
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>=20
> > That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP=20
> > trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should=20
> > do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless=20
> > there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading =

> > to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.
>=20
> +1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
> Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY=20
> intolerable.
>=20
> --=20
> Man has no body distinct from his soul,              John Cowan
> for that called body is a portion of the soul        cowan@ccil.org
> discerned by the five senses,                        =
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
> the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake=20
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:17:24 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Message-ID: <4A1127A4.4010104@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

(as document shepherd)

John, can you say exactly what changes to what document are necessary in =
your view, and which issue this relates to, or point to a mail where =
that has been done?

[Everybody, please make sure issue numbers don't get lost in mail =
threads, or get added back in when getting back to a specific issue.]

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/18 5:03, John Cowan wrote:
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
>> That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP=20
>> trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should=20
>> do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless=20
>> there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading=20
>> to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.
>
> +1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
> Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY=20
> intolerable.
>

--
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:46:00 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: [Ltru] Issue 40: Re: Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE:
	Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <4A112E58.1060700@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

[co-chair and shepherd hat on]

Okay, as Randy has reopened issue 40, and I have found the relevant mail =

with the change proposal, I herewith declare that there is consensus for =

the fix below (I haven't seen anybody opposing to this factual fix), and =

instruct the editors to edit their text accordingly.

Regards,    Martin.

P.S.: Randy, can I ask you to update=20
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/40? You seem to be=20
particularly at ease with that tool, whereas I have repeatedly not been=20
able to get my head around it. To my defense, I can prove that I have=20
successfully submitted and updated bugs in Bugzilla and Redmine, but the =

tool used at the IETF, or the way it's used at the IETF (or maybe it's=20
just me), somehow always escapes my grip (at the moment, all IETF sites=20
are very slow (excusable, it's still Sunday for them), and it's=20
impossible for me to log into the tracking system.

On 2009/05/05 4:48, John Cowan wrote:
> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
>
>> If this is supposed to be a new issue, I will declare it "too late"
>> unless it can be demonstrated to cause interoperability problems.
>
> The sentence in question is the 3rd sentence of bullet point 16 of
> Section 3.4.  It says that registrants SHOULD do something which
> technically is impossible, because the registration authority they
> are asked to petition does not exist.  The error is easily patched by
> s/registration authority/maintenance agency/ in 3.4-16, and leaving it
> in would be an embarrassment.  Please reconsider.
>

--=20
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:53:49 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in
	Section 2.2.9
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <4A11302D.7080705@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

For the record, as a technical contributor, I agree with others that the =

sentence in question should be removed (as it already has been).

I also don't understand Addison when he writes
"Therefore, it is useful to have some documentation explaining why this=20
ABNF is better."
We didn't delete the reason, the mention of the errors in the previous
ABNF is still there.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/04/29 13:42, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> The AD points out:
>
> --
> AD review issue #4 - for details see
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12399.html
>
> 4). In Section 2.2.9:
>
>      Note well: although the 'Language-Tag' production appearing in =
this
>      document is functionally equivalent to the one in [RFC4646], it =
has
>      been changed to prevent certain errors in well-formedness arising
>      from the old 'grandfathered' production. This version of the ABNF =
is
>      RECOMMENDED as a replacement for the older version.
>
> (nit) I suggest deleting the last sentence, as it doesn't provide any
> useful information to a reader (as the WG wants
> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21bis.txt to replace RFC 4646, it is clear =
that
> the WG believes that the new ABNF is better). Also I don't think it =
uses
> RFC 2119 keyword properly.
> --
>
> I think this is not necessary. We have had, as a user community, a =
long-standing problem with stale references to BCP 47. We want to help =
ensure that implementers and standardizers use the right ABNF. It is =
well-known that many implementers rely excessively or even exclusively =
on the ABNF to determine "what is right". Therefore, it is useful to =
have some documentation explaining why this ABNF is better.
>
> Proposed resolution: no change
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--=20
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:21:12 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <4A113698.501@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Hello Kent,

[co-chair/shepherd head on]

Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for how you =

think what currently is:

   [ISO639-2]
               International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
               2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of =
languages
               -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.

should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
> originally raised, is still there:
>
> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, ?ISO =
639-2:1998.
> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 =
code,
> first edition,? 1998.
>
> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO =
references.
> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do =
so
> regularly here.
>
> (not that this is a big deal)
>
>      /kent k
>
>
> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy =
Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--=20
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:47:16 +0200
From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
To: "Martin J. D?rst " <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C6370954.C82A%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=3D"ISO-8859-1"

Quoting directly from 4645bis (version 10), where this reference is ok
(I would have put the start quote a little later, in general for the ISO
references, but now that does not matter):

   [ISO639-2]
              International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
              2:1998.  Codes for the representation of names of
              languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code", October 1998.


        /kent k


Den 2009-05-18 12.21, skrev "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>:

> Hello Kent,
>=20
> [co-chair/shepherd head on]
>=20
> Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for how =
you
> think what currently is:
>=20
>    [ISO639-2]
>                International Organization for Standardization, "ISO =
639-
>                2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of =
languages
>                -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.
>=20
> should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.
>=20
> Regards,   Martin.
>=20
> On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
>> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
>> originally raised, is still there:
>>=20
>> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, ?ISO =
639-2:1998.
>> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 =
code,
>> first edition,? 1998.
>>=20
>> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO =
references.
>> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do =
so
>> regularly here.
>>=20
>> (not that this is a big deal)
>>=20
>>      /kent k
>>=20
>>=20
>> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy =
Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:
>>=20
>>> Hi -
>>>=20
>>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
>>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>>>=20
>>> Randy
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>=20




------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


End of Ltru Digest, Vol 51, Issue 22
************************************

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Den 2009-05-18 13.07, skrev "Martin J. D=FCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>:

> When searching through
> 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21, I found the word
> 
"canonical" all over the place. I would suggest that some people do a
> 
careful read of these places, checking whether they fit together with 
the
> new text. In particular, if there is text elsewhere in the document 
that
> assumes that canonicalization may be without or with extlangs, then 
we would
> have to revise the text proposal below.

Ok, below is my walkthrough for instances of "canonical" in 4646bis-21.
I did not find any issue of the nature you suggest, but I found one that
should be an easy fix ("canonical" -> "preferred"), and one that may be
more major, but has an unclear fix, and I don't want to raise an issue.
There is also a possible omission in the definition of canonical form
w.r.t. extention subtags.

        /kent k


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   In order to avoid instability in the canonical form of tags, if a
   two-character code is added to ISO 639-1 for a language for which a
   three-character code was already included in either ISO 639-2 or ISO
   639-3, the two-character code MUST NOT be registered.  See
   Section 3.4.

----------------------------

This seems to be excessive, since we don't require absolute stability
of canonical forms. It also seems unnecessary, since apparently (see next
entry just below) ISO has 'promised' not to add any more two-letter
language codes.

Anyway, this text is not problematic w.r.t. the current edits
re. canonical form definition.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   To avoid these problems with versioning and subtag choice (as
   experienced during the transition between RFC 1766 and RFC 3066), as
   well as to ensure the canonical nature of subtags defined by this
   document, the ISO 639 Registration Authority Joint Advisory Committee
   (ISO 639/RA-JAC) has included the following statement in
   [iso639.prin]:

    ...

----------------------------

See previous entry (just above).

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   9.  In the event that more than one extension appears in a single
       tag, the tag SHOULD be canonicalized as described in Section 4.5,
       by ordering the various extension sequences into case-insensitive
       ASCII order.

----------------------------

This is about Extension Subtags (not to be confused with Extended
Language Subtags; I still find this naming needlessly confusing),
and there is no change to canonicalisation w.rt. that in section 4.5.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

      *  Preferred-Value's field body contains a canonical mapping from
         this record's value to a modern equivalent that is preferred in
         its place.  Depending on the value of the 'Type' field, this
         value can take different forms:

----------------------------

I see no problem with this text.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   The field 'Preferred-Value' contains a mapping between the record in
   which it appears and another tag or subtag (depending on the record's
   'Type').  The value in this field is used for canonicalization (see
   Section 4.5).  In cases where the subtag or tag also has a
   'Deprecated' field, then the 'Preferred-Value' is RECOMMENDED as the
   best choice to represent the value of this record when selecting a
   language tag.

----------------------------

I see no problem with this text.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   4.  Extended language subtags always have a mapping to their
       identical primary language subtag.  For example, the extended
       language subtag 'yue' (Cantonese) can be used to form the tag
       "zh-yue".  It has a Preferred-Value mapping to the primary
       language subtag 'yue', meaning that a tag such as
       "zh-yue-Hant-HK" can be canonicalized to "yue-Hant-HK".

----------------------------

This refers to what is the latest (and single) version of "canonical",
so no problem with this text.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred in certain contexts.
   For example, both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java programming
   language, but "he" is converted on input to "iw", which is thus the
   canonical form in Java.

----------------------------

This is a Java specific problem, not one with LTRU. Still, it would be
better to say "preferred" instead of "canonical" in this paragraph.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   o  The specification MUST specify a canonical representation.

----------------------------

This is a requirement on registrations of "Extension subtags".
One that is somehow NOT taken advantage of in the current definition
of canonicalisation. Forgotten point in the def. of canonicalisation?

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   Extension authors are strongly cautioned that many (including most
   well-formed) processors will be unaware of any special relationships
   or meaning inherent in the order of extension subtags.  Extension
   authors SHOULD avoid subtag relationships or canonicalization
   mechanisms that interfere with matching or with length restrictions
   that sometimes exist in common protocols where the extension is used.
   In particular, applications MAY truncate the subtags in doing
   matching or in fitting into limited lengths, so it is RECOMMENDED
   that the most significant information be in the most significant
   (left-most) subtags and that the specification gracefully handle
   truncated subtags.

----------------------------

I did not know that we classified *processors* (of any kind) as being
well-formed or not...

This text seems to refer to some other canonicalisation mechanisms
than that in section 4.5. And the current def. of canonicalisation
requires sorting the extention subtags. Maybe this refers to
canonicalisation *within* an extension subtag.

I think this text is problematical (in any case, quite regardless of
the changes to section 4.5), but I don't want to raise an issue on
this now.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

   In some cases, the encompassed languages had tags registered for them
   during the RFC 3066 era.  Those grandfathered tags not already
   deprecated or rendered redundant were deprecated in the registry upon
   adoption of this document.  As grandfathered values, they remain
   valid for use and some content or applications might use them.  As
   with other grandfathered tags, since implementations might not be
   able to associate the grandfathered tags with the encompassed
   language subtag equivalents that are recommended by this document,
   implementations are encouraged to canonicalize tags for comparison
   purposes.  Some examples of this include the tags "zh-hakka" (Hakka)
   and "zh-guoyu" (Mandarin or Standard Chinese).

----------------------------

I see no problem with this text.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

----------------------------

Heading for the section on canonicalisation, a section which naturally has
many instances of the word "canonical" (and inflections of that), which I
don't list here.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





From doug@ewellic.org  Mon May 18 05:53:02 2009
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(Subject line changed since this is no longer about #45)

Kent Karlsson <kent dot karlsson14 at comhem dot se> wrote:

>   Extension authors are strongly cautioned that many (including most
>   well-formed) processors will be unaware of any special relationships
>   or meaning inherent in the order of extension subtags...
>
> I did not know that we classified *processors* (of any kind) as being
> well-formed or not...

I am sure this is shorthand for "processors that check whether a tag is 
well-formed."  It seems like a harmless rhetorical jump to me.  In 
theory it could be changed to "many processors, including most that 
check tags for well-formedness, will be unaware" but I don't think it 
should be necessary to fine-tune the text to this extent.

As an aside, I believe the current text consistently uses "extended 
language subtag" or "extlang" to refer to one concept, and "extension" 
or "extension subtag" to refer to the other, so despite the potential 
for confusion mentioned by Karl, I don't think there is any actual 
ambiguity here that should affect interoperability.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Well-formed processors (was: Re: Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available)
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I wrote:

> so despite the potential for confusion mentioned by Karl,

Should be "Kent."  Sorry.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Hi=2C I am in agreement with Kent on the use of "canonical" in the paragrap=
h below--it should read preferred to avoid confusion. =20

3.1.7=3B Item 4=3B par 3   "Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred i=
n certain contexts.   For example=2C both "iw" and "he" can be used in the =
Java programming   language=2C but "he" is converted on input to "iw"=2C wh=
ich is thus the   canonical form in Java."From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsso=
n14 at comhem.se>=20
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru at ietf.org>=20
Date: Mon=2C 18 May 2009 14:03:54 +0200=20
> This is a Java specific problem=2C not one with LTRU. Still=2C it would b=
e> better to say "preferred" instead of "canonical" in this paragraph.I agr=
ee with Kent here. Best=2C C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com=

--_8060c774-09c3-4c2e-b7e9-e01672bc6c08_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
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<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Hi=2C I am in agreement with Kent on the use of "canonical" in the paragrap=
h below--it should read preferred to avoid confusion.&nbsp=3B <BR>
<H1><PRE><FONT size=3D2>3.1.7=3B Item 4=3B par 3</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT siz=
e=3D2><SPAN>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B "</SPAN>Occasionally the deprecated code is pr=
eferred in certain contexts.</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN>&nbsp=3B=
&nbsp=3B </SPAN>For example=2C both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java p=
rogramming</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B </SPAN>la=
nguage=2C but "he" is converted on input to "iw"=2C which is thus the</FONT=
></PRE><PRE><FONT size=3D2><SPAN>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B </SPAN>canonical form in =
Java."</FONT></PRE></H1><EM>From</EM>: Kent Karlsson &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailt=
o:kent.karlsson14@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">kent.karlsson14 at comhem.se</A>&gt=3B <BR=
><EM>Cc</EM>: LTRU Working Group &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:ltru@DOMAIN.HIDDEN=
">ltru at ietf.org</A>&gt=3B <BR><EM>Date</EM>: Mon=2C 18 May 2009 14:03:54=
 +0200 <BR><PRE><FONT color=3D#000000>&gt=3B This is a Java specific proble=
m=2C not one with LTRU. Still=2C it would be</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT color=
=3D#000000>&gt=3B better to say "preferred" instead of "canonical" in this =
paragraph.</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT color=3D#000000>I agree with Kent here.</=
FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp=3B</PRE><PRE><FONT color=
=3D#000000>Best=2C</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT color=3D#000000></FONT>&nbsp=3B</=
PRE><PRE><FONT color=3D#000000>C. E. Whitehead</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT color=
=3D#000000><A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</=
A></FONT></PRE></body>
</html>=

--_8060c774-09c3-4c2e-b7e9-e01672bc6c08_--

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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section 2.2.9
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section 2.2.9
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To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>, =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon May 18 10:13:41 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 40: Re:  Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49
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Hi -

> From: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> To: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:46 AM
> Subject: Issue 40: Re: [Ltru] Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE: Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
...
> P.S.: Randy, can I ask you to update
> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/40?
...

Ok, I've updated the resolution and closed the report
with what I *think* is the result of this piecemeal discussion:

16. UN M.49 has codes for both countries and areas (such as '276'
for Germany) and geographical regions and sub-regions (such as
'150' for Europe). UN M.49 country or area codes for which
there is no corresponding ISO 3166-1 code SHOULD NOT be
registered, except as a surrogate for an ISO 3166-1 code that is
blocked from registration by an existing subtag.

If such a code
becomes necessary, then the
Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL petition the ISO 3166 Maintenance Agency (ISO 3166/MA) to assign a code to the
region. If the petition for a code assignment by ISO 3166-1 is
refused or not acted on in a timely manner, the
Language Subtag Reviewer SHALL use the
registration
process described in Section 3.5
<http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21#section-3.5>
to register
the corresponding UN M.49 code. This way, UN M.49 codes remain
available as the value of last resort in cases where ISO 3166-1
reassigns a deprecated value in the registry.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon May 18 10:17:38 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Hi -

> From: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> To: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>; "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:07 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
...
> [shepherd hat on]
>
> It appears that this is the last full version of the proposed text.
> Mark nodded at
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12589.html
> to a small fix from Kent at
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12588.html
>
> Is that a correct summary of the current state? There is some
> back-and-forth between Mark and CE Whitehead after that, but it's not
> clear what the result of that is.

I *think* so.  I'd *REALLY* like to see a post of whatever the current
proposed text is.

> When searching through
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21, I found the word
> "canonical" all over the place. I would suggest that some people do a
> careful read of these places, checking whether they fit together with
> the new text. In particular, if there is text elsewhere in the document
> that assumes that canonicalization may be without or with extlangs, then
> we would have to revise the text proposal below.

A big THANK YOU to Kent for his post on that topic!

Randy



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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:08:13 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Re-opening issue #40  (was: ABSOLUTELY intolerable)
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon May 18 12:21:30 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section 2.2.9
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Hi -

The resolution is recorded in the tracker
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/37
Delete the sentence reading "This version of the
ABNF is RECOMMENDED as a replacement for the older version."

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 7:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section 2.2.9
>
> (as editor)
>
> Uh.......
>
> Am I supposed to delete the sentence or not? I can't tell if my proposed resolution was accepted or not.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Martin J. Dürst" [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:54 AM
> > To: Phillips, Addison
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence
> > in Section 2.2.9
> >
> > For the record, as a technical contributor, I agree with others
> > that the
> > sentence in question should be removed (as it already has been).
> >
> > I also don't understand Addison when he writes
> > "Therefore, it is useful to have some documentation explaining why
> > this
> > ABNF is better."
> > We didn't delete the reason, the mention of the errors in the
> > previous
> > ABNF is still there.
> >
> > Regards,    Martin.
> >
> > On 2009/04/29 13:42, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> > > The AD points out:
> > >
> > > --
> > > AD review issue #4 - for details see
> > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12399.html
> > >
> > > 4). In Section 2.2.9:
> > >
> > >      Note well: although the 'Language-Tag' production appearing
> > in this
> > >      document is functionally equivalent to the one in [RFC4646],
> > it has
> > >      been changed to prevent certain errors in well-formedness
> > arising
> > >      from the old 'grandfathered' production. This version of the
> > ABNF is
> > >      RECOMMENDED as a replacement for the older version.
> > >
> > > (nit) I suggest deleting the last sentence, as it doesn't provide
> > any
> > > useful information to a reader (as the WG wants
> > > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21bis.txt to replace RFC 4646, it is
> > clear that
> > > the WG believes that the new ABNF is better). Also I don't think
> > it uses
> > > RFC 2119 keyword properly.
> > > --
> > >
> > > I think this is not necessary. We have had, as a user community,
> > a long-standing problem with stale references to BCP 47. We want to
> > help ensure that implementers and standardizers use the right ABNF.
> > It is well-known that many implementers rely excessively or even
> > exclusively on the ABNF to determine "what is right". Therefore, it
> > is useful to have some documentation explaining why this ABNF is
> > better.
> > >
> > > Proposed resolution: no change
> > >
> > > Addison Phillips
> > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126
> > >
> > > Internationalization is not a feature.
> > > It is an architecture.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> > --
> > #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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From addison@amazon.com  Mon May 18 12:23:24 2009
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:24:40 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section	2.2.9
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section	2.2.9
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon May 18 12:24:38 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <4A113698.501@it.aoyama.ac.jp><C6370954.C82A%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0606C9C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
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Hi -

Ok, I've closed #31 with the resolution of "make form of
references consistent with those in 4645bis."

Randy

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Kent Karlsson" <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>; "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 7:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
>
> I got a copy of the references in 4645bis from Doug and the references in both documents are now identical.
>
> If Doug's copy is acceptable (as it apparently is), we should be okay now.
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Kent Karlsson
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 3:47 AM
> > To: Martin J. Dürst
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
> >
> > Quoting directly from 4645bis (version 10), where this reference is
> > ok
> > (I would have put the start quote a little later, in general for
> > the ISO
> > references, but now that does not matter):
> >
> >    [ISO639-2]
> >               International Organization for Standardization, "ISO
> > 639-
> >               2:1998.  Codes for the representation of names of
> >               languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code", October 1998.
> >
> >
> >         /kent k
> >
> >
> > Den 2009-05-18 12.21, skrev "Martin J. Dürst"
> > <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>:
> >
> > > Hello Kent,
> > >
> > > [co-chair/shepherd head on]
> > >
> > > Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for
> > how you
> > > think what currently is:
> > >
> > >    [ISO639-2]
> > >                International Organization for Standardization,
> > "ISO 639-
> > >                2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of
> > languages
> > >                -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.
> > >
> > > should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.
> > >
> > > Regards,   Martin.
> > >
> > > On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> > >> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the
> > issue
> > >> originally raised, is still there:
> > >>
> > >> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, ³ISO
> > 639-2:1998.
> > >> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2:
> > Alpha-3 code,
> > >> first edition,² 1998.
> > >>
> > >> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO
> > references.
> > >> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both
> > drafts do so
> > >> regularly here.
> > >>
> > >> (not that this is a big deal)
> > >>
> > >>      /kent k
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy
> > Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi -
> > >>>
> > >>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
> > >>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
> > >>>
> > >>> Randy
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Ltru mailing list
> > >>> Ltru@ietf.org
> > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Ltru mailing list
> > >> Ltru@ietf.org
> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Mon May 18 13:14:45 2009
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version 21 versus version 22-ed:
21:   Example: Although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma)
21:   maintains its validity, the language tag "en-BU" is not canonical
21:   because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar).

22:   Example: Although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma)
22:   maintains its validity, the language tag "en-BU" is not in a
22:   canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to
22:   'MM' (Myanmar).

Since there is now only one form that is named "canonical":
"a canonical form" -> "canonical form" (so the -21 text was better).

I don't think we have any "canonical mappings", they are called
"Preferred-Value mappings".

    /kent k



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--001636e909a375e654046a3655b8
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Addison's text in
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html was drawn
from mine, with the one change covered by Kent. And that text looks pretty
good.

There is one difference: I didn't have #4 as a numbered item. Making that
paragraph a step 4, muddies the distinction in the definitions of the two
entities. I think that #4 should not be numbered. Removing the number makes
it much clearer
(a) that the canonical form is defined by well-formedness + Steps 1, 2, and
3 alone, and
(b) exactly how the alternative form is generated from the canonical form
(what was step 4).

That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's text o=
f
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

A. A language tag is in 'canonical form' (or in the alternative 'extlang
form', see below), when...
=3D>
A language tag is in 'canonical form' when...

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

B. "De"number #4. That it, it becomes a regular paragraph after #3. The
change would be:

4. The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form...

   - ...
   - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
   previous step.

=3D> (no #4, outdented)

The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form ...

   - ...
   - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
   previous step.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:22, Randy Presuhn
<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:

> Hi -
>
> > From: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> > To: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>; "Alexey Melnikov" <
> alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group=
"
> <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:07 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> ...
> > [shepherd hat on]
> >
> > It appears that this is the last full version of the proposed text.
> > Mark nodded at
> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12589.html
> > to a small fix from Kent at
> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12588.html
> >
> > Is that a correct summary of the current state? There is some
> > back-and-forth between Mark and CE Whitehead after that, but it's not
> > clear what the result of that is.
>
> I *think* so.  I'd *REALLY* like to see a post of whatever the current
> proposed text is.
>
> > When searching through
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21, I found the word
> > "canonical" all over the place. I would suggest that some people do a
> > careful read of these places, checking whether they fit together with
> > the new text. In particular, if there is text elsewhere in the document
> > that assumes that canonicalization may be without or with extlangs, the=
n
> > we would have to revise the text proposal below.
>
> A big THANK YOU to Kent for his post on that topic!
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--001636e909a375e654046a3655b8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Addison&#39;s text in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-=
ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-464=
6bis-22-ed.html</a> was drawn from mine, with the one change covered by Ken=
t. And that text looks pretty good.<br>
<br>There is one difference: I didn&#39;t have #4 as a numbered item. Makin=
g that paragraph a step 4, muddies the distinction in the definitions of th=
e two entities. I think that #4 should not be numbered. Removing the number=
 makes it much clearer <br>
(a) that the canonical form is defined by well-formedness + Steps 1, 2, and=
 3 alone, and <br>(b) exactly how the alternative form is generated from th=
e canonical form (what was step 4).<br><br>That would be done by the follow=
ing two textual changes in Addison&#39;s text of <a href=3D"http://www.inte=
r-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html">http://www.inter-locale=
.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html</a><br>
<br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br>A. A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;=
 (or in the alternative &#39;extlang form&#39;, see below), when...<br>=3D&=
gt;<br>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39; when...<br><br>=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D<br><br>B. &quot;De&quot;number #4. That it, it becomes a regular =
paragraph after #3. The change would be:<br>
<br><div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;">4. The canonical form contains no &#3=
9;extlang&#39; subtags. There is an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that m=
odifies the canonical form...</div><ul style=3D"margin-left: 40px;" class=
=3D"text">
<li>...</li><li>Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed b=
y the previous step.
</li></ul>=3D&gt; (no #4, outdented)<br><br>The canonical form contains no =
&#39;extlang&#39; subtags. There is an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; tha=
t modifies the canonical form ...<br><ul class=3D"text"><li>...</li><li>Not=
e that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the previous step=
.
</li></ul>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 10:22, Randy Pre=
suhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">=
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0p=
t 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi -<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Martin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it=
.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com">m=
ark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;; &quot;Alexey Melnikov&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:alexey.melnikov@isode.com">alexey.melnikov@isode.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;; &quot;LTRU Working Group&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:07 AM<br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<br=
>
...<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; [shepherd hat on]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It appears that this is the last full version of the proposed text.<br=
>
&gt; Mark nodded at<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12589.=
html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/m=
sg12589.html</a><br>
&gt; to a small fix from Kent at<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12588.=
html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/m=
sg12588.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is that a correct summary of the current state? There is some<br>
&gt; back-and-forth between Mark and CE Whitehead after that, but it&#39;s =
not<br>
&gt; clear what the result of that is.<br>
<br>
</div>I *think* so. =C2=A0I&#39;d *REALLY* like to see a post of whatever t=
he current<br>
proposed text is.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; When searching through<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21</a>, I =
found the word<br>
&gt; &quot;canonical&quot; all over the place. I would suggest that some pe=
ople do a<br>
&gt; careful read of these places, checking whether they fit together with<=
br>
&gt; the new text. In particular, if there is text elsewhere in the documen=
t<br>
&gt; that assumes that canonicalization may be without or with extlangs, th=
en<br>
&gt; we would have to revise the text proposal below.<br>
<br>
</div>A big THANK YOU to Kent for his post on that topic!<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Hi -

Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
...
> That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's text of
...

I'm still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed
to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas
and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs.  Until that is done, I can't agree to
support the changes because I really still don't know what they are.

Randy


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I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison's text of
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html , which is
the latest working copy of the text.

Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn
<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:

> Hi -
>
> Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> ...
> > That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's text
> of
> ...
>
> I'm still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed
> to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas
> and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs.  Until that is done, I can't agree to
> support the changes because I really still don't know what they are.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison&#39;s text of  <a href=3D=
"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.ht=
ml</a> , which is the latest working copy of the text.<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Pre=
suhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">=
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0p=
t 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi -<br>
<br>
Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com"=
>mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org=
">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s=
 copy available<br>
...<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; That would be done by the following two textua=
l changes in Addison&#39;s text of<br>
</div>...<br>
<br>
I&#39;m still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed<b=
r>
to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas<br>
and wouldn&#39;t-it-be-nice-ifs. =C2=A0Until that is done, I can&#39;t agre=
e to<br>
support the changes because I really still don&#39;t know what they are.<br=
>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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Here is the complete amended text, copied from
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html with the
two suggested changes.

4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.

A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed accordin=
g
the rules in Section 2.1
(Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
syntax>and
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-e=
d.html#sources>and
it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
IANA Language Subtag
Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html=
#ianaformat>
):

   1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
   singleton subtag.
      - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.
   2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=
,
   if there is one.
      - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the
      adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or
      "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations
or additions
      to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in
favor of the ISO
      639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
      - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
      redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips,
      A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D Septemb=
er
2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RF=
C4647>)
      and might consist of more than one subtag.
   3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
   extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there=
 is
   a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
      - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
      language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
      example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be repla=
ced
      with the tag "hak" (Hakka).
      - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
      country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to IS=
O
      639-1.

The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language
subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's
Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the
Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see
Section 4.1.2 (Using Extended Language
Subtags)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
choiceUsingExtlang>).


   - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak'=
,
   which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). The
   extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
   - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
   previous step.


Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> wrote:

> I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison's text of
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html , which
> is the latest working copy of the text.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.co=
m
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...
>>
>> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
>> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
>> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>> ...
>> > That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's
>> text of
>> ...
>>
>> I'm still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed
>> to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas
>> and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs.  Until that is done, I can't agree to
>> support the changes because I really still don't know what they are.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
>

--000e0cd17ea82ee634046a36b48a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here is the complete amended text, copied from <a href=3D"http://www.inter-=
locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html">http://www.inter-locale.c=
om/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html</a> with the two suggested changes=
.<br>
<br><h3>4.5.=C2=A0
Canonicalization of Language Tags</h3>

<p>Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
form.
</p>
<p>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;, when the tag is well-form=
ed according the
rules in <a class=3D"info" href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-iet=
f-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax">Section=C2=A02.1<span> (</span><span clas=
s=3D"info">Syntax</span><span>)</span></a> and <a class=3D"info" href=3D"ht=
tp://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources">Se=
ction=C2=A02.2<span> (</span><span class=3D"info">Language Subtag Sources a=
nd Interpretation</span><span>)</span></a> and it has been canonicalized by=
 applying each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA re=
gistry (see <a class=3D"info" href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-=
ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat">Section=C2=A03.1<span> (</span><sp=
an class=3D"info">Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</span><span>)=
</span></a>):</p>

<ol class=3D"text"><li>Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitiv=
e ASCII order by singleton subtag.
<ul class=3D"text"><li>That is, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39; com=
es before &#39;-b-warble&#39;.
</li></ul>
</li><li>Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Va=
lue, if there is one.
<ul class=3D"text"><li>These items are either deprecated mappings created b=
efore the
adoption of this document (such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &qu=
ot;nn&quot; or
&quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;) or are the result of later regist=
rations or
additions to this document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecate=
d in
favor of the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).
</li><li>These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redu=
ndant tags is an &quot;extended language range&quot; (<a class=3D"info" hre=
f=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4=
647">[RFC4647]<span> (</span><span class=3D"info">Phillips, A. and M. Davis=
, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D September=C2=A02006.</span><=
span>)</span></a>) and might consist of more than one subtag.
</li></ul>
</li><li>Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. Fo=
r
extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if
there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
<ul class=3D"text"><li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs i=
s an &quot;extended
language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) would be
replaced with the tag &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka).
</li><li>Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where th=
e
country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
639-1.
</li></ul>
</li></ol>The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. There i=
s an
alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that modifies the canonical form so that
primary language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended
with the extlang&#39;s Prefix. This form may be useful in environments
where the presence of the Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in
matching or selection (see <a class=3D"info" href=3D"http://www.inter-local=
e.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choiceUsingExtlang">Section=C2=
=A04.1.2<span> (</span><span class=3D"info">Using Extended Language Subtags=
</span><span>)</span></a>).

<ul class=3D"text"><li>For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has p=
rimary language subtag
&#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a Prefix =
&#39;zh&#39;
(Chinese). The extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka,
China).
</li><li>Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the p=
revious step.
</li></ul>
<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davi=
s <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com">mark@macchiat=
o.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"b=
order-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left: 1ex;">
I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison&#39;s text of  <a href=3D=
"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.ht=
ml</a> , which is the latest working copy of the text.<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">
<br clear=3D"all">Mark</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Pre=
suhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com" =
target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204=
, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

Hi -<br>
<br>
Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM<br>
<div>&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy availab=
le<br>
...<br>
</div><div>&gt; That would be done by the following two textual changes in =
Addison&#39;s text of<br>
</div>...<br>
<br>
I&#39;m still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed<b=
r>
to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas<br>
and wouldn&#39;t-it-be-nice-ifs. =C2=A0Until that is done, I can&#39;t agre=
e to<br>
support the changes because I really still don&#39;t know what they are.<br=
>
<div><div></div><div><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd17ea82ee634046a36b48a--

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Mon May 18 14:48:40 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA019FFF2456@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <008b01c9ce17$edc12e80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20905060742w204630b9u4fa19300a2724487@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20905061142n688f60a5kd90c3891cd7167d2@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20905111631n347bfc1eyeacab51f1c40c215@mail.gmail.com> <4A114157.5010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <005001c9d7dd$381033e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20905181418g25f0f7bdr7fa8462d64edb0f4@mail.gmail.com> <004801c9d801$27c5a140$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20905181442y28aedc39nd3ee13695250a0f8@mail.gmail.com> <30b660a20905181444k7fb19723w1ffa597e8d9fc8b9@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi -

Thank you Mark, for getting a complete proposal onto the mailing list.
Everyone: The time for discussion is drawing to a close.
Can you live with this text?

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available


Here is the complete amended text, copied from
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html with the
two suggested changes.

4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.

A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed according
the rules in Section 2.1
(Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax>and
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources>and
it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
IANA Language Subtag
Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat>
):

   1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
   singleton subtag.
      - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.
   2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value,
   if there is one.
      - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the
      adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or
      "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations
or additions
      to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in
favor of the ISO
      639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
      - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
      redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips,
      A. and M. Davis, “Matching of Language Tags,� September
2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4647>)
      and might consist of more than one subtag.
   3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
   extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is
   a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
      - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
      language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
      example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced
      with the tag "hak" (Hakka).
      - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
      country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
      639-1.

The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language
subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's
Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the
Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see
Section 4.1.2 (Using Extended Language
Subtags)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choiceUsingExtlang>).


   - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 'hak',
   which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). The
   extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
   - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
   previous step.


Mark



From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Mon May 18 14:56:58 2009
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Den 2009-05-18 23.53, skrev "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:

> Hi -

Thank you Mark, for getting a complete proposal onto the mailing
> list.
Everyone: The time for discussion is drawing to a close.
Can you live
> with this text?

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Davis"

> language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.

Again, there is now only one canonical form, so
"a canonical form" -> "canonical form"

(Though I may guess that there are still those that would prefer
generating/creating tags in extlang form. Not me though.)

    /kent k



From addison@amazon.com  Mon May 18 15:26:15 2009
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To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:27:34 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:37:31 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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From: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Looks like you got them from the followup message. Thanks,

Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 15:27, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote=
:

>  I don=E2=80=99t see the changes. Can you break them out?
>
>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf O=
f
> *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2009 2:45 PM
> *To:* Randy Presuhn
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>
>
>
> Here is the complete amended text, copied from
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html with th=
e
> two suggested changes.
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>
> Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
> language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.
>
> A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed
> according the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/I=
D/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax>and Section 2.2
> (Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/=
ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources>and it has been canonicalized=
 by applying each of the following steps in
> order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
> IANA Language Subtag Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-=
ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat>
> ):
>
>    1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order b=
y
>    singleton subtag.
>
>
>     - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.
>
>
>    1. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their
>    Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>
>
>     - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the
>       adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" =
or
>       "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations or a=
dditions
>       to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor o=
f the ISO
>       639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>       - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>       redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips=
,
>       A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D Septe=
mber 2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.ht=
ml#RFC4647>)
>       and might consist of more than one subtag.
>
>
>    1. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
>    extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if the=
re is
>    a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>
>
>     - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
>       language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. Fo=
r
>       example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be rep=
laced
>       with the tag "hak" (Hakka).
>       - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where
>       the country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections=
 to ISO
>       639-1.
>
> The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
> 'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language
> subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's
> Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the
> Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Sect=
ion 4.1.2
> (Using Extended Language Subtags)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ie=
tf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choiceUsingExtlang>).
>
>
>    - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag
>    'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chine=
se).
>    The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>    - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
>    previous step.
>
>
> Mark
>
>  On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> wrote:
>
> I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison's text of
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html , which
> is the latest working copy of the text.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>  On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn <
> randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
> Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM
>
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> ...
>
> > That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's te=
xt
> of
>
> ...
>
> I'm still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed
> to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas
> and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs.  Until that is done, I can't agree to
> support the changes because I really still don't know what they are.
>
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

--000e0cd17e78a29e7b046a377755
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Looks like you got them from the followup message. Thanks,<br><br clear=3D"=
all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 15:27, Phillips,=
 Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addiso=
n@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I don=E2=80=99=
t see the changes. Can you break them out?</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span>=
</p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillip=
s</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization A=
rchitect -- Lab126</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);"></span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationaliz=
ation is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an archit=
ecture.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

</div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-=
use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: =
medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 22=
3) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium=
; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ltru-bounces@iet=
f.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 18, 2009 2:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Randy Presuhn<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<=
/div></div></span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">

<p>=C2=A0</p>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">Here is the complete amended
text, copied from <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru=
-4646bis-22-ed.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft=
-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html</a>
with the two suggested changes.</p>

<h3>4.5.=C2=A0 Canonicalization of Language Tags</h3>

<p>Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form. </=
p>

<p>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;, when the tag is well-form=
ed according
the rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646=
bis-22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1
(<span>Syntax</span>)</a> and <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/dra=
ft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.2
(<span>Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation</span>)</a> and it
has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in order, us=
ing
data from the IANA registry (see <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/=
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=
=A03.1
(<span>Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</span>)</a>):</p>

<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
 <li>Extension sequences are ordered into
     case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. </li>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>That is, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39;
      comes before &#39;-b-warble&#39;. </li>
 </ul>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
 <li>Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by
     their Preferred-Value, if there is one. </li>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>These items are either deprecated mappings
      created before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of
      &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to
      &quot;tlh&quot;) or are the result of later registrations or addition=
s to
      this document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in fa=
vor
      of the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted). =
</li>
  <li>These field-body of the Preferred-Value for
      grandfathered and redundant tags is an &quot;extended language
      range&quot; (<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltr=
u-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4647" target=3D"_blank">[RFC4647]
      (<span>Phillips, A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=
=E2=80=9D
      September=C2=A02006.</span>)</a>) and might consist of more than one
      subtag. </li>
 </ul>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
 <li>Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if
     there is one. For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is al=
so
     replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.=
 </li>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for
      extlangs is an &quot;extended language range&quot; and typically maps=
 to
      a primary language subtag. For example, the subtag sequence
      &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced with the tag
      &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka). </li>
  <li>Most of the non-extlang subtags are either
      Region subtags where the country name or designation has changed or
      clerical corrections to ISO 639-1. </li>
 </ul>
</ol>

<p>The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. There is
an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that modifies the canonical form so tha=
t primary
language subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extla=
ng&#39;s
Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the
Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see <a hre=
f=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choi=
ceUsingExtlang" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A04.1.2
(<span>Using Extended Language Subtags</span>)</a>). </p>

<ul type=3D"disc">
 <li>For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China)
     has primary language subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;e=
xtlang&#39; record
     with a Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese). The extlang form would be
     &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China). </li>
 <li>Note that this step can restore a subtag that was
     removed by the previous step. </li>
</ul>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br clear=3D"all">
Mark<br>
<br>
</p>

<div>

<p>On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@mac=
chiato.com" target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>

<p>I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison&#39;s text of <a href=
=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.=
html</a>
, which is the latest working copy of the text.<br>
<span style=3D"color: rgb(136, 136, 136);"><br clear=3D"all">
Mark</span></p>

<div>

<div>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>
<br>
</p>

<div>

<p>On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy=
_presuhn@mindspring.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>=
&gt;
wrote:</p>

<p>Hi -<br>
<br>
Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM</p>

<div>

<p>&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy
available<br>
...</p>

</div>

<div>

<p>&gt; That would be done by the following two textual changes
in Addison&#39;s text of</p>

</div>

<p>...<br>
<br>
I&#39;m still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed<b=
r>
to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas<br>
and wouldn&#39;t-it-be-nice-ifs. =C2=A0Until that is done, I can&#39;t agre=
e to<br>
support the changes because I really still don&#39;t know what they are.</p=
>

<div>

<div>

<p><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd17e78a29e7b046a377755--

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To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:40:11 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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[as a technical contributor] +1.   Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/18 23:11, CE Whitehead wrote:
> Hi, I am in agreement with Kent on the use of "canonical" in the paragraph below--it should read preferred to avoid confusion.
>
> 3.1.7; Item 4; par 3   "Occasionally the deprecated code is preferred in certain contexts.   For example, both "iw" and "he" can be used in the Java programming   language, but "he" is converted on input to "iw", which is thus the   canonical form in Java."From: Kent Karlsson<kent.karlsson14 at comhem.se>
> Cc: LTRU Working Group<ltru at ietf.org>
> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:03:54 +0200
>> This is a Java specific problem, not one with LTRU. Still, it would be>  better to say "preferred" instead of "canonical" in this paragraph.I agree with Kent here. Best, C. E. Whiteheadcewcathar@hotmail.com
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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[as a technical contributor]

Here are my comments. In general, I agree with the wording, except where 
indicated below, and modulo the way cross-references are displayed).

On 2009/05/19 6:44, Mark Davis wrote:
> Here is the complete amended text, copied from
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html with the
> two suggested changes.
>
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>
> Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
> language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.
>
> A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed according
> the rules in Section 2.1
> (Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax>and
> Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
> Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources>and
> it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in
> order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
> IANA Language Subtag
> Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat>
> ):

Editorial: I'd prefer to avoid double parentheses. Just change to "(see 
Section 3.1, Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry):"


>     1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
>     singleton subtag.
>        - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.

Please replace "That is" by "for example". "That is" is usually used, 
and is used in the rest of our draft, to give equivalent explanations, 
not examples.

>     2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value,
>     if there is one.
>        - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the
>        adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or
>        "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations
> or additions
>        to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in
> favor of the ISO
>        639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).

I'd prefer to replace "These items" with "Redundant or grandfathered 
tags". But even then, these are not deprecated mappings. So something 
here needs fixing.

>        - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>        redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips,
>        A. and M. Davis, “Matching of Language Tags,� September
> 2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4647>)
>        and might consist of more than one subtag.

"These field-body" doesn't make sense at all to me. Please fix.

>     3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
>     extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is
>     a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>        - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
>        language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
>        example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be replaced
>        with the tag "hak" (Hakka).

I suggest replacing "would" by "is".

>        - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
>        country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
>        639-1.
>
> The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
> 'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language
> subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's
> Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the
> Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see
> Section 4.1.2 (Using Extended Language
> Subtags)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choiceUsingExtlang>).

It seems the text here defines 'extlang form' just in passing, it's not 
even clear whether this is a definition or not. I'd strongly prefer a 
slightly different wording, e.g.:

 >>>>
The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang subtags. This form 
MAY be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is 
considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2 (Using 
Extended Language Subtags).

A language tag is in 'extlang form' if it has been processed by the 
following procedure, or any alternative procedure that leads to the same 
result.

      1. The language tag is brought into canonical form.

      2. If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that
      is also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with
      the extlang's Prefix.

      - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag 
'hak',
      which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' 
(Chinese). The
      extlang form is "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
      - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
      previous step.
 >>>>

Regards,   Martin.

>
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davis<mark@macchiato.com>  wrote:
>
>> I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison's text of
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html , which
>> is the latest working copy of the text.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi -
>>>
>>> Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...
>>>
>>>> From: "Mark Davis"<mark@macchiato.com>
>>>> To: "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>>>> Cc: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>>> ...
>>>> That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's
>>> text of
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I'm still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed
>>> to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas
>>> and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs.  Until that is done, I can't agree to
>>> support the changes because I really still don't know what they are.
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 18:18, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.=
jp>wrote:

> [as a technical contributor]
>
> Here are my comments. In general, I agree with the wording, except where
> indicated below, and modulo the way cross-references are displayed).
>
> On 2009/05/19 6:44, Mark Davis wrote:
>
>> Here is the complete amended text, copied from
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html with
>> the
>> two suggested changes.
>>
>> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>>
>> Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
>> language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.
>>
>> A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed
>> according
>> the rules in Section 2.1
>> (Syntax)<
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax
>> >and
>> Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
>> Interpretation)<
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#source=
s
>> >and
>> it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in
>> order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
>> IANA Language Subtag
>> Registry)<
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianafo=
rmat
>> >
>> ):
>>
>
> Editorial: I'd prefer to avoid double parentheses. Just change to "(see
> Section 3.1, Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry):"


fine by me

>
>
>
>     1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order =
by
>>    singleton subtag.
>>       - That is, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble=
'.
>>
>
> Please replace "That is" by "for example". "That is" is usually used, and
> is used in the rest of our draft, to give equivalent explanations, not
> examples.


fine by me

>
>
>     2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their
>> Preferred-Value,
>>    if there is one.
>>       - These items are either deprecated mappings created before the
>>       adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn"
>> or
>>       "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are the result of later registrations
>> or additions
>>       to this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in
>> favor of the ISO
>>       639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>>
>
> I'd prefer to replace "These items" with "Redundant or grandfathered tags=
".
> But even then, these are not deprecated mappings. So something here needs
> fixing.


I suggest:

These items are either deprecated mappings created...
=3D>
The mappings to Preferred-Value are mappings of deprecated or redundant
tags, some of which predate this document such as the mapping of "no-nyn" t=
o
"nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh", and some of which are the result of additions
in this document, such as the mapping of "zh-hakka" to the ISO 639-3 code
'hak'.

>
>
>        - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>>       redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillip=
s,
>>       A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D Sept=
ember
>> 2006.)<
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC464=
7
>> >)
>>       and might consist of more than one subtag.
>>
>
> "These field-body" doesn't make sense at all to me. Please fix.


should be "The" instead of "These"


>
>
>     3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. Fo=
r
>>    extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if
>> there is
>>    a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>>       - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extend=
ed
>>       language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. F=
or
>>       example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) would be
>> replaced
>>       with the tag "hak" (Hakka).
>>
>
> I suggest replacing "would" by "is".


fine by me.


>
>
>        - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where
>> the
>>       country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to
>> ISO
>>       639-1.
>>
>> The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
>> 'extlang form' that modifies the canonical form so that primary language
>> subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang's
>> Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of th=
e
>> Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see
>> Section 4.1.2 (Using Extended Language
>> Subtags)<
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choice=
UsingExtlang
>> >).
>>
>
> It seems the text here defines 'extlang form' just in passing, it's not
> even clear whether this is a definition or not. I'd strongly prefer a
> slightly different wording, e.g.:
>
> >>>>
> The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
> 'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang subtags. This form MA=
Y
> be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
> considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2 (Using
> Extended Language Subtags).


I'm happy with this direction, so that we are more formal about the
definition, but have some wording fixes.

>
>
> A language tag is in 'extlang form' if it has been processed by the
> following procedure, or any alternative procedure that leads to the same
> result.

=3D>
A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed according
the rules in Section 2.1
(Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
syntax>and
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-e=
d.html#sources>and
it has been processed by applying each of the following two steps in
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
IANA Language Subtag
Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html=
#ianaformat>):


>
>
>     1. The language tag is brought into canonical form.

=3D> The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as describe=
d
above.

>
>
>     2. If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that
>     is also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with
>     the extlang's Prefix.
>
>     - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag
> 'hak',
>     which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Chinese). T=
he
>     extlang form is "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>     - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed by the
>     previous step.
>
=3D> Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag that was
removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).


>
> >>>>
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
>
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davis<mark@macchiato.com>  wrote:
>>
>>  I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison's text of
>>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html ,
>>> which
>>> is the latest working copy of the text.
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn<
>>> randy_presuhn@mindspring.com
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi -
>>>>
>>>> Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...
>>>>
>>>>  From: "Mark Davis"<mark@macchiato.com>
>>>>> To: "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>>>>> Cc: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison's
>>>>>
>>>> text of
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> I'm still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed
>>>> to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas
>>>> and wouldn't-it-be-nice-ifs.  Until that is done, I can't agree to
>>>> support the changes because I really still don't know what they are.
>>>>
>>>> Randy
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Ltru mailing list
>>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>
> --
> #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>

--000e0cd2dda4063416046a39f9c1
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 18:18, &quot;Mar=
tin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot; <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.a=
oyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); mar=
gin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
[as a technical contributor]<br>
<br>
Here are my comments. In general, I agree with the wording, except where in=
dicated below, and modulo the way cross-references are displayed).<div clas=
s=3D"im"><br>
<br>
On 2009/05/19 6:44, Mark Davis wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=
=3D"im">
Here is the complete amended text, copied from<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis=
-22-ed.html</a> with the<br>
two suggested changes.<br>
<br>
4.5. =C2=A0Canonicalization of Language Tags<br>
<br>
Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,<br>
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.<br=
>
<br>
A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;, when the tag is well-formed =
according<br>
the rules in Section 2.1<br></div>
(Syntax)&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646b=
is-22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draf=
t-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax</a>&gt;and<div class=3D"im"><br>
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and<br></div>
Interpretation)&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltr=
u-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com=
/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources</a>&gt;and<div class=3D"im">=
<br>

it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in<br>
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the<br=
>
IANA Language Subtag<br></div>
Registry)&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646=
bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID=
/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat</a>&gt;<br>
):<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Editorial: I&#39;d prefer to avoid double parentheses. Just change to &quot=
;(see Section 3.1, Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry):&quot;</blo=
ckquote><div><br>fine by me <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCI=
I order by<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0singleton subtag.<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - That is, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39; co=
mes before &#39;-b-warble&#39;.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
Please replace &quot;That is&quot; by &quot;for example&quot;. &quot;That i=
s&quot; is usually used, and is used in the rest of our draft, to give equi=
valent explanations, not examples.</blockquote><div><br>fine by me <br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Pref=
erred-Value,<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0if there is one.<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - These items are either deprecated mappings created =
before the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 adoption of this document (such as the mapping of &qu=
ot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; or<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;) or are the =
result of later registrations<br>
or additions<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to this document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; w=
as deprecated in<br>
favor of the ISO<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopt=
ed).<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
I&#39;d prefer to replace &quot;These items&quot; with &quot;Redundant or g=
randfathered tags&quot;. But even then, these are not deprecated mappings. =
So something here needs fixing.</blockquote><div><br>I suggest:<br><br>
These items are either deprecated mappings created...<br>=3D&gt;<br>The map=
pings to Preferred-Value are mappings of deprecated or redundant tags, some=
 of which predate this document such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; t=
o &quot;nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;, and some of w=
hich are the result of additions in this document, such as the mapping of &=
quot;zh-hakka&quot; to the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39;.</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - These field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfa=
thered and<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 redundant tags is an &quot;extended language range&qu=
ot; ([RFC4647] (Phillips,<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=
=E2=80=9D September<br></div>
2006.)&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis=
-22-ed.html#RFC4647" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft=
-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4647</a>&gt;)<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and might consist of more than one subtag.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
&quot;These field-body&quot; doesn&#39;t make sense at all to me. Please fi=
x.</blockquote><div><br>should be &quot;The&quot; instead of &quot;These&qu=
ot; <br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l=
eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:=
 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A03. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is=
 one. For<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replac=
ed if there is<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs =
is an &quot;extended<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary =
language subtag. For<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chin=
ese, Hakka) would be replaced<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with the tag &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka).<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
I suggest replacing &quot;would&quot; by &quot;is&quot;.</blockquote><div><=
br>fine by me.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region s=
ubtags where the<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 country name or designation has changed or clerical c=
orrections to ISO<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 639-1.<br>
<br>
The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. There is an alter=
nate<br>
&#39;extlang form&#39; that modifies the canonical form so that primary lan=
guage<br>
subtags that are also extlang subtags are prepended with the extlang&#39;s<=
br>
Prefix. This form may be useful in environments where the presence of the<b=
r>
Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or selection (see<br>
Section 4.1.2 (Using Extended Language<br></div>
Subtags)&lt;<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646b=
is-22-ed.html#choiceUsingExtlang" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale=
.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#choiceUsingExtlang</a>&gt;).<br>

</blockquote>
<br>
It seems the text here defines &#39;extlang form&#39; just in passing, it&#=
39;s not even clear whether this is a definition or not. I&#39;d strongly p=
refer a slightly different wording, e.g.:<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. There is an alter=
nate<br></div>
&#39;extlang form&#39; that maintains or reinstates extlang subtags. This f=
orm MAY be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is =
considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2 (Using Ex=
tended Language Subtags).</blockquote>
<div><br>I&#39;m happy with this direction, so that we are more formal abou=
t the definition, but have some wording fixes. <br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin=
: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
A language tag is in &#39;extlang form&#39; if it has been processed by the=
 following procedure, or any alternative procedure that leads to the same r=
esult.</blockquote><div>=3D&gt;<br>A language tag is in &#39;extlang form&#=
39;, when the tag is well-formed according the
rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-=
22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1<span> (</span><span>S=
yntax</span><span>)</span></a> and <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/I=
D/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=
=A02.2<span> (</span><span>Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation</span=
><span>)</span></a> and it has been processed by applying each of the follo=
wing two steps in order, using data from the IANA registry (see <a href=3D"=
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaforma=
t" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A03.1<span> (</span><span>Format of the IAN=
A Language Subtag Registry</span><span>)</span></a>): <br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb=
(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. The language tag is brought into canonical form.</blockqu=
ote><div>=3D&gt; The language tag is first transformed into canonical form,=
 as described above.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"bo=
rder-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag=
 that<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 is also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepende=
d with<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the extlang&#39;s Prefix.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary=
 language subtag &#39;hak&#39;,<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a Prefix =
&#39;zh&#39; (Chinese). The<br></div>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 extlang form is &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China=
).<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Note that this step can restore a subtag that was removed =
by the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 previous step.</div></blockquote><div>=3D&gt; Note that Step=
 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag that was removed by Step 1 (c=
anonicalizing).<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
<br></div>
Regards, =C2=A0 Martin.<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><=
div class=3D"h5">
<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:42, Mark Davis&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchia=
to.com" target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt; =C2=A0wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
I did that. I referred very explicitly to Addison&#39;s text of<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.htm=
l" target=3D"_blank">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis=
-22-ed.html</a> , which<br>
is the latest working copy of the text.<br>
<br>
Mark<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 14:39, Randy Presuhn&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_pre=
suhn@mindspring.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
wrote:<br>
Hi -<br>
<br>
Both as co-chair and as a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;<br>
To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring=
.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 2:18 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<br>
</blockquote>
...<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
That would be done by the following two textual changes in Addison&#39;s<br=
>
</blockquote>
text of<br>
...<br>
<br>
I&#39;m still waiting for someone to post the *exact* text being proposed<b=
r>
to this mailing list, rather than yet another bunch of little deltas<br>
and wouldn&#39;t-it-be-nice-ifs. =C2=A0Until that is done, I can&#39;t agre=
e to<br>
support the changes because I really still don&#39;t know what they are.<br=
>
<br>
Randy<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br></div></div>
------------------------------------------------------------------------<di=
v class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></blockquote>
<br><div class=3D"im">
-- <br>
#-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br></div>
#-# <a href=3D"http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">http://www.=
sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> =C2=A0 mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.=
jp" target=3D"_blank">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd2dda4063416046a39f9c1--

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Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 6:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
...

Though the number of comments on #45 is disconcerting, there seems to
be the potential for rapid progress and closure here.  To that end,
I suggest that revised proposed text, incorporating the suggestions
on which there seems to be agreement, be posted to the WG mailing
list for the archives.

Randy



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--000e0cd32f98d21efe046a3ba46e
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Ok. Here is complete revised text, taking Martin's comments into account
(modified slightly according to my comments).

=3D=3D=3D=3D
4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.

A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed accordin=
g
the rules in Section 2.1
(Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
syntax>and
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-e=
d.html#sources>and
it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1, Format of the
IANA Language Subtag
Registry<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
ianaformat>
):

   1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
   singleton subtag.
      - For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
      '-b-warble'.
   2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=
,
   if there is one.
   - The mappings to Preferred-Value are mappings of deprecated or redundan=
t
      tags, some of which predate this document such as the mapping of
"no-nyn" to
      "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh", and some of which are the result
of additions
      in this document, such as the mapping of "zh-hakka" to the ISO 639-3 =
code
      'hak'.
      - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
      redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips,
      A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D Septemb=
er
2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RF=
C4647>)
      and might consist of more than one subtag.
   3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
   extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there=
 is
   a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
      - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
      language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
      example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) is
replaced with the
      tag "hak" (Hakka).
      - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
      country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to IS=
O
      639-1.

The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang subtags. This form MAY
be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2 (Using
Extended Language Subtags).

A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed according
the rules in Section 2.1
(Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
syntax>and
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-e=
d.html#sources>and
it has been processed by applying each of the following two steps in
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1, Format of the
IANA Language Subtag
Registry<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#=
ianaformat>):


   1. The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as
   described above.
   2. If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that is als=
o
   an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with the extlang's
   Prefix.
      - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag
      'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh'
(Chinese).
      The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
      - Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag that wa=
s
      removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).

Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 19:36, Randy Presuhn
<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:

> Hi -
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
> > To: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group=
"
> <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 6:38 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> ...
>
> Though the number of comments on #45 is disconcerting, there seems to
> be the potential for rapid progress and closure here.  To that end,
> I suggest that revised proposed text, incorporating the suggestions
> on which there seems to be agreement, be posted to the WG mailing
> list for the archives.
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--000e0cd32f98d21efe046a3ba46e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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Ok. Here is complete revised text, taking Martin&#39;s comments into accoun=
t (modified slightly according to my comments).<br><br>=3D=3D=3D=3D<br><h3>=
4.5.=C2=A0
Canonicalization of Language Tags</h3>

<p>Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical
form.
</p>
<p>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;, when the tag is well-form=
ed according the
rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-=
22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1<span> (</span><span>S=
yntax</span><span>)</span></a> and <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/I=
D/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=
=A02.2<span> (</span><span>Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation</span=
><span>)</span></a> and it has been canonicalized by applying each of the f=
ollowing steps in order, using data from the IANA registry (see <a href=3D"=
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaforma=
t" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A03.1<span>, </span><span>Format of the IAN=
A Language Subtag Registry</span><span></span></a>):</p>


<ol><div class=3D"im"><li>Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensi=
tive ASCII order by singleton subtag.
<ul><li>For example, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39; comes before &=
#39;-b-warble&#39;.
</li></ul>
</li></div><li><div class=3D"im">Redundant or grandfathered tags are replac=
ed by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
</div><ul><div class=3D"im"><li>The mappings to Preferred-Value are mapping=
s of deprecated or
redundant tags, some of which predate this document such as the mapping
of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;t=
lh&quot;, and some of which are the
result of additions in this document, such as the mapping of &quot;zh-hakka=
&quot;
to the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39;.<br></li></div><li>The field-body of th=
e Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant tags is an &quot;extended=
 language range&quot; (<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf=
-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4647" target=3D"_blank">[RFC4647]<span> (</span=
><span>Phillips, A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=
=9D September=C2=A02006.</span><span>)</span></a>) and might consist of mor=
e than one subtag.
</li></ul>
</li><div class=3D"im"><li>Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, i=
f there is one. For
extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if
there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
<ul><li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an &quot;exte=
nded
language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) is
replaced with the tag &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka).
</li><li>Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where th=
e
country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
639-1.
</li></ul>
</li></div></ol>The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. T=
here is an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that maintains or reinstates ex=
tlang subtags. This form
MAY be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2
(Using Extended Language Subtags).<br><br>A language tag is in &#39;extlang=
 form&#39;, when the tag is well-formed according the
rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-=
22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1<span> (</span><span>S=
yntax</span><span>)</span></a> and <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/I=
D/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=
=A02.2<span> (</span><span>Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation</span=
><span>)</span></a> and it has been processed by applying each of the follo=
wing two steps in order, using data from the IANA registry (see <a href=3D"=
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaforma=
t" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A03.1<span>, </span><span>Format of the IAN=
A Language Subtag Registry</span><span></span></a>): <br>
<ol><li>The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as descr=
ibed above.</li><li>If the language tag starts with a primary language subt=
ag that is also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with =
the extlang&#39;s Prefix.</li>
<ul><li>For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary=C2=A0lan=
guage subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record w=
ith a Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese). The extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak=
-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China).</li>
<li>Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag that was re=
moved by Step 1 (canonicalizing).</li></ul></ol>Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 19:36, Randy Pre=
suhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">=
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0p=
t 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi -<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com"=
>mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;<br>
</div>&gt; To: &quot;Martin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:duers=
t@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;; &quot;LTRU Working Group&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 6:38 PM<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor&#39;s=
 copy available<br>
...<br>
<br>
</div>Though the number of comments on #45 is disconcerting, there seems to=
<br>
be the potential for rapid progress and closure here. =C2=A0To that end,<br=
>
I suggest that revised proposed text, incorporating the suggestions<br>
on which there seems to be agreement, be posted to the WG mailing<br>
list for the archives.<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd32f98d21efe046a3ba46e--

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To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
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As long as we are committed to continuing to wordsmith this text...

Mark Davis <mark at macchiato dot com> wrote:

> A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed 
> according the rules in Section 2.1

Should be "according to."  And I still don't understand the purpose of 
the comma before "when."

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


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To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:50:29 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Hello everybody,

On 2009/05/19 13:31, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> Martin wrote:

>> It seems the text here defines 'extlang form' just in passing, it's
>> not even clear whether this is a definition or not. I'd strongly prefer
>> a slightly different wording, e.g.:
>
> I agree with your position, but wasn't the idea that the 'extlang form' wasn't "the" canonical form?

I'm fine if it's not the canonical form. But I think we either define it 
clearly, or not (and I'd definitely prefer the former). In the text I 
commented on, it was just mentioned, leaving the reader wondering where 
this was actually defined anywhere.

Regards,  Martin.

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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[with shepherd hat on]

Addison and Mark, please publish -22 at your earliest convenience.
I share Randy's assessment that we might be very close to closure on
#45, but then again we might not be. Don't wait with publishing just
because we might be done tomorrow (integers are cheap).

[as a technical contributor (or should I say textual contributor?)]

Some nits below.

On 2009/05/19 13:50, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> Ur, uh… let me post it from the actual editor’s copy please. I did some additional editing as part of incorporating all these changes. Also, it is useful to see the entire section.
>
> Here is what I have, after my edits, the email thread with Martin, Doug’s note, and the below:
>
> --
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>
>     Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes,
>     language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical
>     form.
>
>     A language tag is in 'canonical form' (or in the alternative 'extlang
>     form', see below), when the tag is well-formed according the rules in

according the -> according to the

, when -> when

(all due to Doug)

>     Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been canonicalized by applying
>     each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA
>     registry (see Section 3.1):
>
>     1.  Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order
>         by singleton subtag.
>
>         *  For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
>            '-b-warble'.
>
>     2.  Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-
>         Value, if there is one.
>
>         *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>            redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647]) and
>            might consist of more than one subtag.
>
>         *  Many of these Preferred-Value mappings are either deprecated tags
>            created before the adoption of this document (such as the
>            mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are
>            the result of later registrations or additions to this
>            document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of
>            the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>
>     3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>         For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also
>         replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-
>         Value.
>
>         *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>            "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary
>            language subtag.  For example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak"
>            (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'hak' (Hakka).
>
>         *  Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags
>            where the country name or designation has changed or clerical
>            corrections to ISO 639-1.
>
>     The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags.  There is an
>     alternate 'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang
>     subtags.  This form can be useful in environments where the presence
>     of the Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or
>     selection (see Section 4.1.2).
>
>     A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed
>     according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been

according the -> according to the

>     processed by applying each of the following two steps in order, using
>     data from the IANA registry:
>
>     1.  The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as
>         described above.
>
>     2.  If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that is
>         also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with
>         the extlang's Prefix.
>
>         *   For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language

has primary language -> has a primary language

>             subtag 'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a
>             Prefix 'zh' (Chinese).  The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN"
>             (Chinese, Hakka, China).

would be -> is

>         *   Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag
>             that was removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).
>
>     Example: The language tag "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-x-xyz" is in a
>     canonical form, while "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed and

in a canonical form -> in canonical form

>     potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the
>     publication of this document) but not in a canonical form (the
>     extensions are not in alphabetical order).
>
>     Example: Although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma)
>     maintains its validity, the language tag "en-BU" is not in a
>     canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to
>     'MM' (Myanmar).

in a canonical form -> in canonical form

>     Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the
>     use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing
>     subtags (and as described in Section 2.1).  All comparisons MUST be
>     performed in a case-insensitive manner.
>
>     When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY
>     regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is
>     OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry (see
>     Section 2.1.1).
>
>     If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY reorder
>     the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consistent
>     presentation.  Reordering of the variants SHOULD follow the
>     recommendations for variant ordering in Section 4.1.
>
>     If the field 'Deprecated' appears in a registry record without an
>     accompanying 'Preferred-Value' field, then that tag or subtag is
>     deprecated without a replacement.  These values are canonical when
>     they appear in a language tag.  However, tags that include these
>     values SHOULD NOT be selected by users or generated by
>     implementations.
>
>     An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the
>     various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate
>     canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags.  Extensions MAY
>     define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted.  For
>     example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical
>     order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a-
>     aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa".  Another extension might
>     define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic
>     meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from "en-b-
>     aaa-bbb-ccc").  However, extension specifications SHOULD be designed
>     so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in
>     Section 3.7.
>
> --
>
> I’d also be in favor of losing the two “Example� paragraphs as redundant
 > (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules).
 > They detract from the overall flow, are confusing, and are
 > already covered by other examples in this final text.

Would be fine by me either way. [as a technical contributor]
With the fixes as given above. [as a textual contributor]

Better not start another discussion, the examples above don't hurt, or 
do they. Let's converge quickly [shepherd hat on]

Regards,   Martin.


#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Other than the items below, works for me.

Mark


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 21:50, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote=
:

>  Ur, uh=E2=80=A6 let me post it from the actual editor=E2=80=99s copy ple=
ase. I did some
> additional editing as part of incorporating all these changes. Also, it i=
s
> useful to see the entire section.
>
>
>
> Here is what I have, after my edits, the email thread with Martin, Doug=
=E2=80=99s
> note, and the below:
>
>
>
> --
>
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>
>
>
>    Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes,
>
>    language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical
>
>    form.
>
>
>
>    A language tag is in 'canonical form' (or in the alternative 'extlang
>
>    form', see below), when the tag is well-formed according the rules in
>
Remove the parenthetical, since Steps 1-3 *don't* define the extlang form;
the extlang form is defined separately. I've been trying for a while to get
you to fix this ;-)

according =3D> according to

>    Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been canonicalized by applying
>
>    each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA
>
>    registry (see Section 3.1):
>
>
>
>    1.  Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order
>
>        by singleton subtag.
>
>
>
>        *  For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
>
>           '-b-warble'.
>
>
>
>    2.  Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-
>
>        Value, if there is one.
>
>
>
>        *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>
>           redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647]) and
>
>           might consist of more than one subtag.
>
>
>
>        *  Many of these Preferred-Value mappings are either deprecatedtag=
s
>
A mapping isn't a tag. You could add "for" after "either" to fix that.

Grammatically you need to structure this sentence as one of the following. =
I
don't care which.

... mappings either are ... or are ...

or

... mappings are either ... or ...

>           created before the adoption of this document (such as the
>
>           mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are
>
>           the result of later registrations or additions to this
>
>           document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of
>
>           the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>
>
>
>    3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>
>        For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also
>
>        replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-
>
>        Value.
>
>
>
>        *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>
>           "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary
>
>           language subtag.  For example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak"
>
>           (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'hak' (Hakka).
>
>
>
>        *  Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags
>
>           where the country name or designation has changed or clerical
>
>           corrections to ISO 639-1.
>
>
>
>    The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags.  There is an
>
>    alternate 'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang
>
>    subtags.  This form can be useful in environments where the presence
>
>    of the Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or
>
>    selection (see Section 4.1.2).
>
>
>
>    A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed
>
>    according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been
>
>    processed by applying each of the following two steps in order, using
>
>    data from the IANA registry:
>
>
>
>    1.  The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as
>
>        described above.
>
>
>
>    2.  If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that is
>
>        also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with
>
>        the extlang's Prefix.
>
>
>
>        *   For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language
>
>            subtag 'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a
>
>            Prefix 'zh' (Chinese).  The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN"
>
>            (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>
>
>
>        *   Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag
>
>            that was removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).
>
>
>
>    Example: The language tag "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-x-xyz" is in a
>
>    canonical form, while "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed and
>
>    potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the
>
>    publication of this document) but not in a canonical form (the
>
>    extensions are not in alphabetical order).
>
>
>
>    Example: Although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma)
>
>    maintains its validity, the language tag "en-BU" is not in a
>
>    canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to
>
>    'MM' (Myanmar).
>
>
>
>    Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the
>
>    use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing
>
>    subtags (and as described in Section 2.1).  All comparisons MUST be
>
>    performed in a case-insensitive manner.
>
>
>
>    When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY
>
>    regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is
>
>    OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry (see
>
>    Section 2.1.1).
>
>
>
>    If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY reorder
>
>    the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consistent
>
>    presentation.  Reordering of the variants SHOULD follow the
>
>    recommendations for variant ordering in Section 4.1.
>
>
>
>    If the field 'Deprecated' appears in a registry record without an
>
>    accompanying 'Preferred-Value' field, then that tag or subtag is
>
>    deprecated without a replacement.  These values are canonical when
>
>    they appear in a language tag.  However, tags that include these
>
>    values SHOULD NOT be selected by users or generated by
>
>    implementations.
>
>
>
>    An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the
>
>    various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate
>
>    canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags.  Extensions MAY
>
>    define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted.  For
>
>    example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical
>
>    order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a-
>
>    aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa".  Another extension might
>
>    define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic
>
>    meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from "en-b-
>
>    aaa-bbb-ccc").  However, extension specifications SHOULD be designed
>
>    so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in
>
>    Section 3.7.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D =
paragraphs as redundant
> (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules). They detract fro=
m
> the overall flow, are confusing, and are already covered by other example=
s
> in this final text.
>

The examples do cover cases not otherwise covered. To help with the flow,
how about as a list?

Examples:
    1. ...
    2. ...

>
>
> Addison
>
>
>
> Addison Phillips
>
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
>
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
>
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
> *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf O=
f
> *Mark Davis
> *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2009 8:38 PM
> *To:* Randy Presuhn
> *Cc:* LTRU Working Group
> *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
>
>
>
> Ok. Here is complete revised text, taking Martin's comments into account
> (modified slightly according to my comments).
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>
> Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes,
> language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form.
>
> A language tag is in 'canonical form', when the tag is well-formed
> according the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/I=
D/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax>and Section 2.2
> (Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/=
ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources>and it has been canonicalized=
 by applying each of the following steps in
> order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1, Format of the
> IANA Language Subtag Registry<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-l=
tru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat>
> ):
>
>    1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order b=
y
>    singleton subtag.
>
>
>     - For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
>       '-b-warble'.
>
>
>    1. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their
>    Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>
>
>     - The mappings to Preferred-Value are mappings of deprecated or
>       redundant tags, some of which predate this document such as the map=
ping of
>       "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh", and some of which are the=
 result
>       of additions in this document, such as the mapping of "zh-hakka" to=
 the ISO
>       639-3 code 'hak'.
>
>
>     - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>       redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips=
,
>       A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D Septe=
mber 2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.ht=
ml#RFC4647>)
>       and might consist of more than one subtag.
>
>
>    1. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
>    extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if the=
re is
>    a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>
>
>     - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
>       language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. Fo=
r
>       example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced =
with the
>       tag "hak" (Hakka).
>       - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where
>       the country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections=
 to ISO
>       639-1.
>
>  The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags. There is an alternate
> 'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang subtags. This form MA=
Y
> be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
> considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2 (Using
> Extended Language Subtags).
>
> A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed accordin=
g
> the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ie=
tf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#syntax>and Section 2.2
> (Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/=
ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#sources>and it has been processed by =
applying each of the following two steps in
> order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1, Format of the
> IANA Language Subtag Registry<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-l=
tru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat>):
>
>
>    1. The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as
>    described above.
>    2. If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that is
>    also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with the
>    extlang's Prefix.
>
>
>     - For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language subtag
>       'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a Prefix 'zh' (Ch=
inese).
>       The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN" (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>       - Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag that
>       was removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).
>
> Mark
>
>  On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 19:36, Randy Presuhn <
> randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
>
> > From: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com>
>
> > To: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group=
"
> <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 6:38 PM
>
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
> ...
>
> Though the number of comments on #45 is disconcerting, there seems to
> be the potential for rapid progress and closure here.  To that end,
> I suggest that revised proposed text, incorporating the suggestions
> on which there seems to be agreement, be posted to the WG mailing
> list for the archives.
>
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
>

--000e0cd2dda4f87c1b046a3e90a9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Other than the items below, works for me.<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 21:50, Phillips,=
 Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addiso=
n@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">









<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">

<div>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Ur, uh=E2=80=
=A6 let me post it from the actual editor=E2=80=99s copy please. I
did some additional editing as part of incorporating all these changes. Als=
o,
it is useful to see the entire section.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Here is what I=
 have, after my edits, the email thread with Martin,
Doug=E2=80=99s note, and the below:</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p><=
div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">4=
.5.=C2=A0
Canonicalization of Language Tags</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes,</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
form.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39; (or in the alternative &#39;e=
xtlang</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
form&#39;, see below), when the tag is well-formed according the rules in</=
span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Remove the parenthetical, since Step=
s 1-3 *don&#39;t* define the extlang form; the extlang form is defined sepa=
rately. I&#39;ve been trying for a while to get you to fix this ;-)<br>
<br>according =3D&gt; according to<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-U=
S"><div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;"><=
/span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been canonicalized by applying</span=
></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
registry (see Section 3.1):</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
1.=C2=A0 Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order<=
/span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
by singleton subtag.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
*=C2=A0 For example, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39; comes before</=
span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
&#39;-b-warble&#39;.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
2.=C2=A0 Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-</=
span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
Value, if there is one.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
*=C2=A0 The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
redundant tags is an &quot;extended language range&quot; ([RFC4647]) and</s=
pan></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
might consist of more than one subtag.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
*=C2=A0 Many of these Preferred-Value mappings </span><span style=3D"font-s=
ize: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">are </span><span style=3D=
"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">either deprecate</=
span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;"=
>d</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">
tags</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>A mapping isn&#39;t a tag. You=
 could add &quot;for&quot; after &quot;either&quot; to fix that.<br><br>Gra=
mmatically you need to structure this sentence as one of the following. I d=
on&#39;t care which.<br>
<br><div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;">... mappings either are ... or are ..=
.<br></div><br>or<br><br><div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;">... mappings are=
 either ... or ...<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;"></span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
created before the adoption of this document (such as the</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to
&quot;tlh&quot;) or are</span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
the result of later registrations or additions to this</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in favor of</spa=
n></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).</span></p=
>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
3.=C2=A0 Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.</s=
pan></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
Value.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
*=C2=A0 The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
&quot;extended language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
language subtag.=C2=A0 For example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot;<=
/span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
(Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the subtag &#39;hak&#39; (Hakka).</span><=
/p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
*=C2=A0 Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags</span></p=
>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
where the country name or designation has changed or clerical</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
corrections to ISO 639-1.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags.=C2=A0 There is an=
</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that maintains or reinstates extlang</span=
></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
subtags.=C2=A0 This form can be useful in environments where the presence</=
span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
of the Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
selection (see Section 4.1.2).</span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
A language tag is in &#39;extlang form&#39;, when the tag is well-formed</s=
pan></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been</span></=
p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
processed by applying each of the following two steps in order, using</span=
></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
data from the IANA registry:</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
1.=C2=A0 The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as</spa=
n></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
described above.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
2.=C2=A0 If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that is<=
/span></p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
the extlang&#39;s Prefix.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;=
;">* </span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&=
quot;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0For example,
&quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka, China) has primary language</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in turn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a<=
/span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese).=C2=A0 The extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak=
-CN&quot;</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
(Chinese, Hakka, China).</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
</span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;=
;">* </span><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&=
quot;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0Note that Step 2
(prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
that was removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

</div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quo=
t;;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
Example: The language tag &quot;en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-x-xyz&quot; is in a</spa=
n></p><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
canonical form, while &quot;en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz&quot; is well-formed a=
nd</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
potentially valid (extensions &#39;a&#39; and &#39;b&#39; are not defined a=
s of the</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
publication of this document) but not in a canonical form (the</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
extensions are not in alphabetical order).</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Example: Although the tag &quot;en-BU&quot; (English as used in Burma)</spa=
n></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
maintains its validity, the language tag &quot;en-BU&quot; is not in a</spa=
n></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
canonical form because the &#39;BU&#39; subtag has a canonical mapping to</=
span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
&#39;MM&#39; (Myanmar).</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
subtags (and as described in Section 2.1).=C2=A0 All comparisons MUST be</s=
pan></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
performed in a case-insensitive manner.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 When
performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry (see</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Section 2.1.1).</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY reorder</span=
></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consistent</span></=
p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
presentation.=C2=A0 Reordering of the variants SHOULD follow the</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
recommendations for variant ordering in Section 4.1.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
If the field &#39;Deprecated&#39; appears in a registry record without an</=
span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
accompanying &#39;Preferred-Value&#39; field, then that tag or subtag is</s=
pan></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
deprecated without a replacement.=C2=A0 These values are canonical when</sp=
an></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
they appear in a language tag.=C2=A0 However, tags that include these</span=
></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
values SHOULD NOT be selected by users or generated by</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
implementations.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the</span></p=
>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate</span></p=
>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
canonicalization scheme for the extension&#39;s subtags.=C2=A0 Extensions M=
AY</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
define how the order of the extension&#39;s subtags are interpreted.=C2=A0 =
For</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical</span>=
</p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, &quot;en-a-</s=
pan></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
aaa-bbb-ccc&quot; instead of &quot;en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa&quot;.=C2=A0 Another ex=
tension
might</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
meaning (so that &quot;en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa&quot; has a different value from
&quot;en-b-</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
aaa-bbb-ccc&quot;).=C2=A0 However, extension specifications SHOULD be desig=
ned</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0
Section 3.7.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">--</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

</div></div><p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I=
=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D par=
agraphs as
redundant (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules). They det=
ract
from the overall flow, are confusing, and are already covered by other exam=
ples
in this final text.</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br>The example=
s do cover cases not otherwise covered. To help with the flow, how about as=
 a list?<br><br>Examples:<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. ...<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. ... <=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid =
rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison</span>=
</p><div class=3D"im">

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Addison Phillip=
s</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Globalization A=
rchitect -- Lab126</span><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);"></span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Internationaliz=
ation is not a feature.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is an archit=
ecture.</span></p>

<p><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">=C2=A0</span><=
/p>

</div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-color: -moz-=
use-text-color -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color blue; border-width: =
medium medium medium 1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;">

<div>

<div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 22=
3) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; border-width: 1pt medium medium=
; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">

<p><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-=
size: 10pt;">
<a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ltru-bounces@iet=
f.org</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark
Davis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 18, 2009 8:38 PM<div class=3D"im"><br>
<b>To:</b> Randy Presuhn<br>
<b>Cc:</b> LTRU Working Group<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Ticket #=
45: updated editor&#39;s copy available</div></div></span></p>

</div>

</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">

<p>=C2=A0</p>

<p>Ok. Here is complete revised text, taking Martin&#39;s comments
into account (modified slightly according to my comments).<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D</p>

<h3>4.5.=C2=A0 Canonicalization of Language Tags</h3>

<p>Since a particular language tag is sometimes used by many processes, lan=
guage
tags SHOULD always be created or generated in a canonical form. </p>

<p>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39;, when the tag is well-form=
ed according
the rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646=
bis-22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1 (Syntax)</a> and =
<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.htm=
l#sources" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.2 (Language Subtag Sources and =
Interpretation)</a>
and it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in or=
der,
using data from the IANA registry (see <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.c=
om/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat" target=3D"_blank">Sect=
ion=C2=A03.1, Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</a>):</p>

<div>

<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
 <li>Extension sequences are ordered into
     case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag. </li>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>For example, the subtag sequence
      &#39;-a-babble&#39; comes before &#39;-b-warble&#39;. </li>
 </ul>
</ol>

</div>

<div>

<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
 <li>Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by
     their Preferred-Value, if there is one. </li>
</ol>

</div>

<div>

<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>The mappings to Preferred-Value are
      mappings of deprecated or redundant tags, some of which predate this
      document such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; =
or
      &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;, and some of which are the
      result of additions in this document, such as the mapping of
      &quot;zh-hakka&quot; to the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39;.</li>
 </ul>
</ol>

</div>

<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for
      grandfathered and redundant tags is an &quot;extended language
      range&quot; (<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltr=
u-4646bis-22-ed.html#RFC4647" target=3D"_blank">[RFC4647] (Phillips, A. and=
 M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of
      Language Tags,=E2=80=9D September=C2=A02006.)</a>) and might consist =
of more than
      one subtag. </li>
 </ul>
</ol>

<div>

<ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
 <li>Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if
     there is one. For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is al=
so
     replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.=
 </li>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"3" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for
      extlangs is an &quot;extended language range&quot; and typically maps=
 to
      a primary language subtag. For example, the subtag sequence
      &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the tag
      &quot;hak&quot; (Hakka). </li>
  <li>Most of the non-extlang subtags are either
      Region subtags where the country name or designation has changed or
      clerical corrections to ISO 639-1. </li>
 </ul>
</ol>

</div>

<p>The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. There is
an alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that maintains or reinstates extlang su=
btags. This
form MAY be used in environments where the presence of the Prefix subtag is
considered beneficial in matching or selection (see Section 4.1.2 (Using
Extended Language Subtags).<br>
<br>
A language tag is in &#39;extlang form&#39;, when the tag is well-formed ac=
cording the
rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-=
22-ed.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1 (Syntax)</a> and <a h=
ref=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#so=
urces" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.2 (Language Subtag Sources and Inte=
rpretation)</a>
and it has been processed by applying each of the following two steps in or=
der,
using data from the IANA registry (see <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.c=
om/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22-ed.html#ianaformat" target=3D"_blank">Sect=
ion=C2=A03.1, Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</a>):
</p>

<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
 <li>The language tag is first transformed into
     canonical form, as described above.</li>
 <li>If the language tag starts with a primary
     language subtag that is also an extlang subtag, then the language tag =
is
     prepended with the extlang&#39;s Prefix.</li>
</ol>

<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
 <ul type=3D"circle">
  <li>For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka,
      China) has primary=C2=A0language subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in turn =
has an
      &#39;extlang&#39; record with a Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese). The ex=
tlang form would be
      &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot; (Chinese, Hakka, China).</li>
  <li>Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can
      restore a subtag that was removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).</li>
 </ul>
</ol>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">Mark<br>
<br>
</p>

<div>

<p>On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 19:36, Randy Presuhn &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy=
_presuhn@mindspring.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>=
&gt;
wrote:</p>

<p>Hi -</p>

<div>

<p><br>
&gt; From: &quot;Mark Davis&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">mark@macchiato.com</a>&gt;</p>

</div>

<p>&gt; To: &quot;Martin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@i=
t.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com" target=3D"_blank">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;;
&quot;LTRU Working Group&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 6:38 PM</p>

<div>

<p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt;">&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket
#45: updated editor&#39;s copy available<br>
...</p>

</div>

<p>Though the number of comments on #45 is disconcerting, there
seems to<br>
be the potential for rapid progress and closure here. =C2=A0To that end,<br=
>
I suggest that revised proposed text, incorporating the suggestions<br>
on which there seems to be agreement, be posted to the WG mailing<br>
list for the archives.</p>

<div>

<div>

<p><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a></p>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p>=C2=A0</p>

</div></div></div>

</div>

</div>


</blockquote></div><br>

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Mark


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 00:00, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.=
jp>wrote:

> [with shepherd hat on]
>
> Addison and Mark, please publish -22 at your earliest convenience.
> I share Randy's assessment that we might be very close to closure on
> #45, but then again we might not be. Don't wait with publishing just
> because we might be done tomorrow (integers are cheap).
>
> [as a technical contributor (or should I say textual contributor?)]
>
> Some nits below.
>
> On 2009/05/19 13:50, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>
>> Ur, uh=E2=80=A6 let me post it from the actual editor=E2=80=99s copy ple=
ase. I did some
>> additional editing as part of incorporating all these changes. Also, it =
is
>> useful to see the entire section.
>>
>> Here is what I have, after my edits, the email thread with Martin, Doug=
=E2=80=99s
>> note, and the below:
>>
>> --
>> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>>
>>    Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes,
>>    language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical
>>    form.
>>
>>    A language tag is in 'canonical form' (or in the alternative 'extlang
>>    form', see below), when the tag is well-formed according the rules in
>>
>
> according the -> according to the
>
> , when -> when
>
> (all due to Doug)


Agreed.


>
>
>     Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been canonicalized by applying
>>    each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA
>>    registry (see Section 3.1):
>>
>>    1.  Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order
>>        by singleton subtag.
>>
>>        *  For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
>>           '-b-warble'.
>>
>>    2.  Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-
>>        Value, if there is one.
>>
>>        *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
>>           redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647]) and
>>           might consist of more than one subtag.
>>
>>        *  Many of these Preferred-Value mappings are either deprecated
>> tags
>>           created before the adoption of this document (such as the
>>           mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh") or are
>>           the result of later registrations or additions to this
>>           document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of
>>           the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>>
>>    3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>>        For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also
>>        replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-
>>        Value.
>>
>>        *  The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an
>>           "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary
>>           language subtag.  For example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak"
>>           (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'hak' (Hakka).
>>
>>        *  Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags
>>           where the country name or designation has changed or clerical
>>           corrections to ISO 639-1.
>>
>>    The canonical form contains no 'extlang' subtags.  There is an
>>    alternate 'extlang form' that maintains or reinstates extlang
>>    subtags.  This form can be useful in environments where the presence
>>    of the Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or
>>    selection (see Section 4.1.2).
>>
>>    A language tag is in 'extlang form', when the tag is well-formed
>>    according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been
>>
>
> according the -> according to the
>

Agreed.


>
>
>     processed by applying each of the following two steps in order, using
>>    data from the IANA registry:
>>
>>    1.  The language tag is first transformed into canonical form, as
>>        described above.
>>
>>    2.  If the language tag starts with a primary language subtag that is
>>        also an extlang subtag, then the language tag is prepended with
>>        the extlang's Prefix.
>>
>>        *   For example, "hak-CN" (Hakka, China) has primary language
>>
>
> has primary language -> has a primary language


Agreed.


>
>
>             subtag 'hak', which in turn has an 'extlang' record with a
>>            Prefix 'zh' (Chinese).  The extlang form would be "zh-hak-CN"
>>            (Chinese, Hakka, China).
>>
>
> would be -> is


Agreed


>
>
>         *   Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix) can restore a subtag
>>            that was removed by Step 1 (canonicalizing).
>>
>>    Example: The language tag "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-x-xyz" is in a
>>    canonical form, while "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed and
>>
>
> in a canonical form -> in canonical form


Agreed.


>
>
>     potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the
>>    publication of this document) but not in a canonical form (the
>>    extensions are not in alphabetical order).
>>
>>    Example: Although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma)
>>    maintains its validity, the language tag "en-BU" is not in a
>>    canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to
>>    'MM' (Myanmar).
>>
>
> in a canonical form -> in canonical form


Agreed


>
>
>     Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything about the
>>    use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparing
>>    subtags (and as described in Section 2.1).  All comparisons MUST be
>>    performed in a case-insensitive manner.
>>
>>    When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors MAY
>>    regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is
>>    OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry (see
>>    Section 2.1.1).
>>
>>    If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY reorder
>>    the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consistent
>>    presentation.  Reordering of the variants SHOULD follow the
>>    recommendations for variant ordering in Section 4.1.
>>
>>    If the field 'Deprecated' appears in a registry record without an
>>    accompanying 'Preferred-Value' field, then that tag or subtag is
>>    deprecated without a replacement.  These values are canonical when
>>    they appear in a language tag.  However, tags that include these
>>    values SHOULD NOT be selected by users or generated by
>>    implementations.
>>
>>    An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between the
>>    various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alternate
>>    canonicalization scheme for the extension's subtags.  Extensions MAY
>>    define how the order of the extension's subtags are interpreted.  For
>>    example, an extension could define that its subtags are in canonical
>>    order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, "en-a-
>>    aaa-bbb-ccc" instead of "en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa".  Another extension might
>>    define that the order of the subtags influences their semantic
>>    meaning (so that "en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa" has a different value from "en-b-
>>    aaa-bbb-ccc").  However, extension specifications SHOULD be designed
>>    so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described in
>>    Section 3.7.
>>
>> --
>>
>> I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D=
 paragraphs as redundant
>>
> > (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules).
> > They detract from the overall flow, are confusing, and are
> > already covered by other examples in this final text.
>
> Would be fine by me either way. [as a technical contributor]
> With the fixes as given above. [as a textual contributor]
>
> Better not start another discussion, the examples above don't hurt, or do
> they. Let's converge quickly [shepherd hat on]
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
>
> #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--000e0cd3298281efc0046a3e952d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 00:00, &quot;Mar=
tin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot; <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.a=
oyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); mar=
gin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
[with shepherd hat on]<br>
<br>
Addison and Mark, please publish -22 at your earliest convenience.<br>
I share Randy&#39;s assessment that we might be very close to closure on<br=
>
#45, but then again we might not be. Don&#39;t wait with publishing just<br=
>
because we might be done tomorrow (integers are cheap).<br>
<br>
[as a technical contributor (or should I say textual contributor?)]<br>
<br>
Some nits below.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
On 2009/05/19 13:50, Phillips, Addison wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Ur, uh=E2=80=A6 let me post it from the actual editor=E2=80=99s copy please=
. I did some additional editing as part of incorporating all these changes.=
 Also, it is useful to see the entire section.<br>
<br>
Here is what I have, after my edits, the email thread with Martin, Doug=E2=
=80=99s note, and the below:<br>
<br>
--<br>
4.5. =C2=A0Canonicalization of Language Tags<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes=
,<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canoni=
cal<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0form.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39; (or in the alte=
rnative &#39;extlang<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0form&#39;, see below), when the tag is well-formed according =
the rules in<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
according the -&gt; according to the<br>
<br>
, when -&gt; when<br>
<br>
(all due to Doug)</blockquote><div><br>Agreed.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204)=
; margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has been canonicalized by =
applying<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0each of the following steps in order, using data from the IAN=
A<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0registry (see Section 3.1):<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. =C2=A0Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitiv=
e ASCII order<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by singleton subtag.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0For example, the subtag sequence &#39;-=
a-babble&#39; comes before<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &#39;-b-warble&#39;.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. =C2=A0Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by thei=
r Preferred-<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Value, if there is one.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0The field-body of the Preferred-Value f=
or grandfathered and<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 redundant tags is an &quot;extended lan=
guage range&quot; ([RFC4647]) and<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 might consist of more than one subtag.<=
br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Many of these Preferred-Value mappings =
are either deprecated tags<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 created before the adoption of this doc=
ument (such as the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;=
nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;) or are<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the result of later registrations or ad=
ditions to this<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&q=
uot; was deprecated in favor of<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when t=
his document was adopted).<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A03. =C2=A0Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if th=
ere is one.<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For extlangs, the original primary language sub=
tag is also<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0replaced if there is a primary language subtag =
in the Preferred-<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Value.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0The field-body of the Preferred-Value f=
or extlangs is an<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;extended language range&quot; and=
 typically maps to a primary<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 language subtag. =C2=A0For example, the=
 subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot;<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the s=
ubtag &#39;hak&#39; (Hakka).<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Most of the non-extlang subtags are eit=
her Region subtags<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 where the country name or designation h=
as changed or clerical<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 corrections to ISO 639-1.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The canonical form contains no &#39;extlang&#39; subtags. =C2=
=A0There is an<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0alternate &#39;extlang form&#39; that maintains or reinstates=
 extlang<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subtags. =C2=A0This form can be useful in environments where =
the presence<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of the Prefix subtag is considered beneficial in matching or<=
br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0selection (see Section 4.1.2).<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A language tag is in &#39;extlang form&#39;, when the tag is =
well-formed<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0according the rules in Section 2.1 and Section 2.2 and it has=
 been<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div></div>
according the -&gt; according to the<div class=3D"im"></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br>Agreed.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; p=
adding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processed by applying each of the following two steps in orde=
r, using<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0data from the IANA registry:<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. =C2=A0The language tag is first transformed into canonical=
 form, as<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0described above.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. =C2=A0If the language tag starts with a primary language s=
ubtag that is<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0also an extlang subtag, then the language tag i=
s prepended with<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the extlang&#39;s Prefix.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0 For example, &quot;hak-CN&quot; (Hakka=
, China) has primary language<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
has primary language -&gt; has a primary language</blockquote><div><br>Agre=
ed.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-le=
ft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: =
1ex;">
<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subtag &#39;hak&#39;, which in tu=
rn has an &#39;extlang&#39; record with a<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Prefix &#39;zh&#39; (Chinese). =
=C2=A0The extlang form would be &quot;zh-hak-CN&quot;<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Chinese, Hakka, China).<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
would be -&gt; is</blockquote><div><br>Agreed<br>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);=
 margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0 Note that Step 2 (prepending a prefix)=
 can restore a subtag<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that was removed by Step 1 (canon=
icalizing).<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: The language tag &quot;en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-x-xyz&quot=
; is in a<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0canonical form, while &quot;en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz&quot; is=
 well-formed and<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
in a canonical form -&gt; in canonical form</blockquote><div><br>Agreed.<br=
>=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1p=
x solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">=
<div class=3D"im">
<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0potentially valid (extensions &#39;a&#39; and &#39;b&#39; are=
 not defined as of the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0publication of this document) but not in a canonical form (th=
e<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extensions are not in alphabetical order).<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Example: Although the tag &quot;en-BU&quot; (English as used =
in Burma)<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0maintains its validity, the language tag &quot;en-BU&quot; is=
 not in a<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0canonical form because the &#39;BU&#39; subtag has a canonica=
l mapping to<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&#39;MM&#39; (Myanmar).<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
in a canonical form -&gt; in canonical form</blockquote><div><br>Agreed<br>=
=C2=A0<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px=
 solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><=
div>
<div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Canonicalization of language tags does not imply anything abo=
ut the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0use of upper or lowercase letters when processing or comparin=
g<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0subtags (and as described in Section 2.1). =C2=A0All comparis=
ons MUST be<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0performed in a case-insensitive manner.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0When performing canonicalization of language tags, processors=
 MAY<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0regularize the case of the subtags (that is, this process is<=
br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0OPTIONAL), following the case used in the registry (see<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 2.1.1).<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If more than one variant appears within a tag, processors MAY=
 reorder<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the variants to obtain better matching behavior or more consi=
stent<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0presentation. =C2=A0Reordering of the variants SHOULD follow =
the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0recommendations for variant ordering in Section 4.1.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If the field &#39;Deprecated&#39; appears in a registry recor=
d without an<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accompanying &#39;Preferred-Value&#39; field, then that tag o=
r subtag is<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deprecated without a replacement. =C2=A0These values are cano=
nical when<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they appear in a language tag. =C2=A0However, tags that inclu=
de these<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0values SHOULD NOT be selected by users or generated by<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0implementations.<br>
<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0An extension MUST define any relationships that exist between=
 the<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0various subtags in the extension and thus MAY define an alter=
nate<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0canonicalization scheme for the extension&#39;s subtags. =C2=
=A0Extensions MAY<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0define how the order of the extension&#39;s subtags are inter=
preted. =C2=A0For<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example, an extension could define that its subtags are in ca=
nonical<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0order when the subtags are placed into ASCII order: that is, =
&quot;en-a-<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0aaa-bbb-ccc&quot; instead of &quot;en-a-ccc-bbb-aaa&quot;. =
=C2=A0Another extension might<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0define that the order of the subtags influences their semanti=
c<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meaning (so that &quot;en-b-ccc-bbb-aaa&quot; has a different=
 value from &quot;en-b-<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0aaa-bbb-ccc&quot;). =C2=A0However, extension specifications S=
HOULD be designed<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so that they are tolerant of the typical processes described =
in<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Section 3.7.<br>
<br>
--<br>
<br>
I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D pa=
ragraphs as redundant<br>
</blockquote>
&gt; (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules).<br>
&gt; They detract from the overall flow, are confusing, and are<br>
&gt; already covered by other examples in this final text.<br>
<br></div></div>
Would be fine by me either way. [as a technical contributor]<br>
With the fixes as given above. [as a textual contributor]<br>
<br>
Better not start another discussion, the examples above don&#39;t hurt, or =
do they. Let&#39;s converge quickly [shepherd hat on]<br>
<br>
Regards, =C2=A0 Martin.<div class=3D"im"><br>
<br>
<br>
#-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br></div>
#-# <a href=3D"http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">http://www.=
sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> =C2=A0 mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.=
jp" target=3D"_blank">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><div><div></div><div class=
=3D"h5"><br>

_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--000e0cd3298281efc0046a3e952d--

From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Tue May 19 00:59:41 2009
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Editors, please produce draft-22
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On 2009/05/18 23:56, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> Do you mean officially submit draft-22?

Yes, that's what I mean.    Regards,   Martin.

> I will have it ready this morning (Pacific time) and will post it on the editor page (on inter-locale.com). I will also submit it when I receive clarification.
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Martin J. Dürst" [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]
>> Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:14 AM
>> To: Phillips, Addison; Mark Davis
>> Cc: LTRU Working Group; Alexey Melnikov
>> Subject: Editors, please produce draft-22
>>
>> Hello Addison, Mark,
>>
>> Alex, our AD, has indicated to the chairs that he would appreciate
>> being
>> able to review our progress so far even if we have not yet been
>> able to
>> address all the issues he raised.
>>
>> I would therefore like to instruct you to submit version 22 of your
>> draft at your earliest convenience, including the resolution I
>> posted on
>> issue 40, and, if possible without delays, also a proposed solution
>> for
>> issue 31 (either from Kent or making your own proposal).
>>
>> This would leave us only with issue 45 (and possibly 31), and would
>> allow Alex to check the rest, which allows for some parallelization
>> of
>> our work.
>>
>> Regards,   Martin.
>> --
>> #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
>> #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:27:56 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:09:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: draft-22 submitted...
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Tags for Identifying Languages
	Author(s)       : A. Phillips, M. Davis
	Filename        : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.txt
	Pages           : 89
	Date            : 2009-05-19

This document describes the structure, content, construction, and
semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to
indicate the language used in an information object.  It also
describes how to register values for use in language tags and the
creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange.

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Very good.

Now that I see the result, I think you are right about moving the examples.
I'd suggest the following locations (yellow for those who can see it), and =
a
slight shortening.

4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags

Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes, language tag=
s
SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical form.

A language tag is in 'canonical form' when the tag is well-formed according
to the rules in Section 2.1
(Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#syn=
tax>and
Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and
Interpretation)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.h=
tml#sources>and
it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in
order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
IANA Language Subtag
Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#ia=
naformat>
):

   1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by
   singleton subtag.
      - For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
      '-b-warble'.
      - For example, the language tag "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is
      well-formed and potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are
not defined as
      of the publication of this document) but not in a canonical form
because the
      extensions are not in alphabetical order; the canonical form would be
      "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-X-xyz".
       2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their
   Preferred-Value, if there is one.
      - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and
      redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips,
      A. and M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D Septemb=
er
2006.)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#RFC46=
47>)
      and might consist of more than one subtag.
      - Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from
      deprecated tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were
created before the
      adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or
      "i-klingon" to "tlh"). Others are the result of later registrations o=
r
      additions to the registry as permitted or required by this document (=
for
      example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3
code 'hak' when
      this document was adopted).
   3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For
   extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there=
 is
   a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
      - For example, although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is
      valid, it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a
canonical
      mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar).
      - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended
      language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
      example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) is
replaced with the
      subtag 'hak' (Hakka).
      - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the
      country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to IS=
O
      639-1.




Mark


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:27, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote=
:

>    A language tag is in 'canonical form' (or in the alternative 'extlang
>    form', see below), when the tag is well-formed according the rules in
> Remove the parenthetical, since Steps 1-3 *don't* define the extlang form=
;
> the extlang form is defined separately. I've been trying for a while to g=
et
> you to fix this ;-)
>
> AP> DONE
>
>
> according =3D> according to
>
> AP> DONE in response to Martin's note.
>
>
>        *  Many of these Preferred-Value mappings are either deprecated ta=
gs
> A mapping isn't a tag. You could add "for" after "either" to fix that.
>
> Grammatically you need to structure this sentence as one of the following=
.
> I don't care which.
> ... mappings either are ... or are ...
>
> or
> ... mappings are either ... or ...
>
> AP> Good points both. I did a more extensive edit to fix this. In the new
> document, it isn't "many" but rather "all" of the redundant/grandfathered
> mappings that fit the two categories provided: there are no other kinds o=
f
> P-V values! To convey all this I put:
>
> --
> Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated
> tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adoptio=
n
> of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" =
to
> "tlh"). Others are the result of later registrations or additions to the
> registry as permitted or required by this document (for example, "zh-hakk=
a"
> was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document wa=
s
> adopted).
> --
>
>
> --
>
> I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D =
paragraphs as redundant
> (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules). They detract fro=
m
> the overall flow, are confusing, and are already covered by other example=
s
> in this final text.
>
> The examples do cover cases not otherwise covered.
>
> AP> The first one illustrates extension ordering. The second one
> illustrates preferred-value mapping. These are covered by the text now in=
 a
> way that wasn't as apparent before. But I digress, since I already said I
> wasn't going to muck with them anymore.
>
> Addison
>

--001636e0aedb56c88e046a4771f9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Very good.<br><br>Now that I see the result, I think you are right about mo=
ving the examples. I&#39;d suggest the following locations (yellow for thos=
e who can see it), and a slight shortening.<br><br><h3>4.5.=C2=A0
Canonicalization of Language Tags</h3>

<p>Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical form.
</p>
<p>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39; when the tag is well-forme=
d according to the rules in <a class=3D"info" href=3D"http://www.inter-loca=
le.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#syntax">Section=C2=A02.1<span> (<=
/span><span class=3D"info">Syntax</span><span>)</span></a> and <a class=3D"=
info" href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.htm=
l#sources">Section=C2=A02.2<span> (</span><span class=3D"info">Language Sub=
tag Sources and Interpretation</span><span>)</span></a> and it has been can=
onicalized by applying each of the following steps in order, using data fro=
m the IANA registry (see <a class=3D"info" href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.=
com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#ianaformat">Section=C2=A03.1<span> (=
</span><span class=3D"info">Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</sp=
an><span>)</span></a>):</p>

<ol class=3D"text"><li>Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitiv=
e ASCII order by singleton subtag.
<ul class=3D"text"><li>For example, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-babble&#39;=
 comes before &#39;-b-warble&#39;.</li><li style=3D"background-color: rgb(2=
55, 255, 153);">For example, the language tag &quot;en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xy=
z&quot; is well-formed and potentially valid
(extensions &#39;a&#39; and &#39;b&#39; are not defined as of the publicati=
on of this
document) but not in a canonical form because the extensions are not in
alphabetical order; the canonical form would be &quot;en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-X-=
xyz&quot;.<br> </li></ul>
</li><li>Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Va=
lue, if there is one.
<ul class=3D"text"><li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathe=
red and redundant tags is an &quot;extended language range&quot; (<a class=
=3D"info" href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22=
.html#RFC4647">[RFC4647]<span> (</span><span class=3D"info">Phillips, A. an=
d M. Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D September=C2=A0200=
6.</span><span>)</span></a>) and might consist of more than one subtag.
</li><li> Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from
deprecated tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created
before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&q=
uot;
to &quot;nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;). Others are =
the result of later
registrations or additions to the registry as permitted or required by
this document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in favor of=
 the
ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).
</li></ul>
</li><li>Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. Fo=
r
extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if
there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
<ul class=3D"text"><li style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">For =
example, although the tag &quot;en-BU&quot; (English as used in Burma) is v=
alid, it is
not in canonical form because the &#39;BU&#39; subtag has a canonical mappi=
ng to &#39;MM&#39; (Myanmar).</li><li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value=
 for extlangs is an &quot;extended
language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) is replace=
d with
the subtag &#39;hak&#39; (Hakka).</li><li>Most of the non-extlang subtags a=
re either Region subtags where the
country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
639-1.
</li></ul>
</li></ol><br><br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:27, Phillips,=
 Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addiso=
n@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">
<div class=3D"im">=C2=A0=C2=A0 A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39=
; (or in the alternative &#39;extlang<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 form&#39;, see below), when the tag is well-formed according t=
he rules in<br>
Remove the parenthetical, since Steps 1-3 *don&#39;t* define the extlang fo=
rm; the extlang form is defined separately. I&#39;ve been trying for a whil=
e to get you to fix this ;-)<br>
<br>
</div>AP&gt; DONE<br>
<br>
<br>
according =3D&gt; according to<br>
<br>
AP&gt; DONE in response to Martin&#39;s note.<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
=C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Many of these Preferred-Value =
mappings are either deprecated tags<br>
A mapping isn&#39;t a tag. You could add &quot;for&quot; after &quot;either=
&quot; to fix that.<br>
<br>
Grammatically you need to structure this sentence as one of the following. =
I don&#39;t care which.<br>
... mappings either are ... or are ...<br>
<br>
or<br>
... mappings are either ... or ...<br>
<br>
</div>AP&gt; Good points both. I did a more extensive edit to fix this. In =
the new document, it isn&#39;t &quot;many&quot; but rather &quot;all&quot; =
of the redundant/grandfathered mappings that fit the two categories provide=
d: there are no other kinds of P-V values! To convey all this I put:<br>

<br>
--<br>
Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated tag=
s to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adoption of =
this document (such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; =
or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;). Others are the result of late=
r registrations or additions to the registry as permitted or required by th=
is document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in favor of t=
he ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).<br>

--<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
=C2=A0<br>
--<br>
=C2=A0<br>
I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D pa=
ragraphs as redundant (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rule=
s). They detract from the overall flow, are confusing, and are already cove=
red by other examples in this final text.<br>

<br>
The examples do cover cases not otherwise covered.<br>
<br>
</div>AP&gt; The first one illustrates extension ordering. The second one i=
llustrates preferred-value mapping. These are covered by the text now in a =
way that wasn&#39;t as apparent before. But I digress, since I already said=
 I wasn&#39;t going to muck with them anymore.<br>

<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Addison<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>

--001636e0aedb56c88e046a4771f9--

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I should quickly add that I'm also ok with leaving the examples where they
are in http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html, just
in the interests of timeliness.

Mark


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:43, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> wrote:

> Very good.
>
> Now that I see the result, I think you are right about moving the example=
s.
> I'd suggest the following locations (yellow for those who can see it), an=
d a
> slight shortening.
>
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags
>
> Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes, language
> tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical form.
>
> A language tag is in 'canonical form' when the tag is well-formed accordi=
ng
> to the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft=
-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#syntax>and
> Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation)<http://www.inter=
-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#sources>and it has been cano=
nicalized by applying each of the following steps in
> order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the
> IANA Language Subtag Registry)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-=
ltru-4646bis-22.html#ianaformat>
> ):
>
>    1. Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order b=
y
>    singleton subtag.
>    - For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before
>       '-b-warble'.
>       - For example, the language tag "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is
>       well-formed and potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not d=
efined as
>       of the publication of this document) but not in a canonical form be=
cause the
>       extensions are not in alphabetical order; the canonical form would =
be
>       "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-X-xyz".
>        2. Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their
>    Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>    - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundan=
t
>       tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips, A. and M=
.
>       Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D September 2006.=
)<http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#RFC4647>)
>       and might consist of more than one subtag.
>       - Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from
>       deprecated tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created b=
efore the
>       adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" =
or
>       "i-klingon" to "tlh"). Others are the result of later registrations=
 or
>       additions to the registry as permitted or required by this document=
 (for
>       example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code '=
hak' when
>       this document was adopted).
>       3. Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>    For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if=
 there
>    is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>    - For example, although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is
>       valid, it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a ca=
nonical
>       mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar).
>       - The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extende=
d
>       language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. Fo=
r
>       example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced =
with the
>       subtag 'hak' (Hakka).
>       - Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where
>       the country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections=
 to ISO
>       639-1.
>
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:27, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>wrot=
e:
>
>>    A language tag is in 'canonical form' (or in the alternative 'extlang
>>    form', see below), when the tag is well-formed according the rules in
>> Remove the parenthetical, since Steps 1-3 *don't* define the extlang for=
m;
>> the extlang form is defined separately. I've been trying for a while to =
get
>> you to fix this ;-)
>>
>> AP> DONE
>>
>>
>> according =3D> according to
>>
>> AP> DONE in response to Martin's note.
>>
>>
>>        *  Many of these Preferred-Value mappings are either deprecated
>> tags
>> A mapping isn't a tag. You could add "for" after "either" to fix that.
>>
>> Grammatically you need to structure this sentence as one of the followin=
g.
>> I don't care which.
>> ... mappings either are ... or are ...
>>
>> or
>> ... mappings are either ... or ...
>>
>> AP> Good points both. I did a more extensive edit to fix this. In the ne=
w
>> document, it isn't "many" but rather "all" of the redundant/grandfathere=
d
>> mappings that fit the two categories provided: there are no other kinds =
of
>> P-V values! To convey all this I put:
>>
>> --
>> Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated
>> tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adopti=
on
>> of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon"=
 to
>> "tlh"). Others are the result of later registrations or additions to the
>> registry as permitted or required by this document (for example, "zh-hak=
ka"
>> was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document w=
as
>> adopted).
>> --
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D=
 paragraphs as redundant
>> (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rules). They detract fr=
om
>> the overall flow, are confusing, and are already covered by other exampl=
es
>> in this final text.
>>
>> The examples do cover cases not otherwise covered.
>>
>> AP> The first one illustrates extension ordering. The second one
>> illustrates preferred-value mapping. These are covered by the text now i=
n a
>> way that wasn't as apparent before. But I digress, since I already said =
I
>> wasn't going to muck with them anymore.
>>
>> Addison
>>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I should quickly add that I&#39;m also ok with leaving the examples where t=
hey are in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bi=
s-22.html">http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html</=
a>, just in the interests of timeliness.<br>
<br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:43, Mark Davi=
s <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mark@macchiato.com">mark@macchiat=
o.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"b=
order-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; paddin=
g-left: 1ex;">
Very good.<br><br>Now that I see the result, I think you are right about mo=
ving the examples. I&#39;d suggest the following locations (yellow for thos=
e who can see it), and a slight shortening.<div class=3D"im"><br><br><h3>
4.5.=C2=A0
Canonicalization of Language Tags</h3>

<p>Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes,
language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical form.
</p>
</div><p>A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39; when the tag is well=
-formed according to the rules in <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID=
/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#syntax" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A02.1=
<span> (</span><span>Syntax</span><span>)</span></a> and <a href=3D"http://=
www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#sources" target=3D"=
_blank">Section=C2=A02.2<span> (</span><span>Language Subtag Sources and In=
terpretation</span><span>)</span></a> and it has been canonicalized by appl=
ying each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA registr=
y (see <a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22=
.html#ianaformat" target=3D"_blank">Section=C2=A03.1<span> (</span><span>Fo=
rmat of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</span><span>)</span></a>):</p>


<ol><li><div class=3D"im">Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensi=
tive ASCII order by singleton subtag.
</div><ul><div class=3D"im"><li>For example, the subtag sequence &#39;-a-ba=
bble&#39; comes before &#39;-b-warble&#39;.</li></div><li style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">For example, the language tag &quot;en-b-ccc=
-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz&quot; is well-formed and potentially valid
(extensions &#39;a&#39; and &#39;b&#39; are not defined as of the publicati=
on of this
document) but not in a canonical form because the extensions are not in
alphabetical order; the canonical form would be &quot;en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-X-=
xyz&quot;.<br> </li></ul>
</li><li><div class=3D"im">Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by =
their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
</div><ul><div class=3D"im"><li>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for g=
randfathered and redundant tags is an &quot;extended language range&quot; (=
<a href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#R=
FC4647" target=3D"_blank">[RFC4647]<span> (</span><span>Phillips, A. and M.=
 Davis, =E2=80=9CMatching of Language Tags,=E2=80=9D September=C2=A02006.</=
span><span>)</span></a>) and might consist of more than one subtag.
</li></div><div class=3D"im"><li> Preferred-Value fields in the registry pr=
ovide mappings from
deprecated tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created
before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&q=
uot;
to &quot;nn&quot; or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;). Others are =
the result of later
registrations or additions to the registry as permitted or required by
this document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in favor of=
 the
ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).
</li></div></ul>
</li><li><div class=3D"im">Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, i=
f there is one. For
extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if
there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
</div><ul><li style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 153);">For example, =
although the tag &quot;en-BU&quot; (English as used in Burma) is valid, it =
is
not in canonical form because the &#39;BU&#39; subtag has a canonical mappi=
ng to &#39;MM&#39; (Myanmar).</li><div class=3D"im"><li>The field-body of t=
he Preferred-Value for extlangs is an &quot;extended
language range&quot; and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For
example, the subtag sequence &quot;zh-hak&quot; (Chinese, Hakka) is replace=
d with
the subtag &#39;hak&#39; (Hakka).</li><li>Most of the non-extlang subtags a=
re either Region subtags where the
country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO
639-1.
</li></div></ul>
</li></ol><br><br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><=
br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:27, Phillips,=
 Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com" target=
=3D"_blank">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin=
: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">

<div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 A language tag is in &#39;canonical form&#39; (or in the =
alternative &#39;extlang<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 form&#39;, see below), when the tag is well-formed according t=
he rules in<br>
Remove the parenthetical, since Steps 1-3 *don&#39;t* define the extlang fo=
rm; the extlang form is defined separately. I&#39;ve been trying for a whil=
e to get you to fix this ;-)<br>
<br>
</div>AP&gt; DONE<br>
<br>
<br>
according =3D&gt; according to<br>
<br>
AP&gt; DONE in response to Martin&#39;s note.<br>
<div><br>
=C2=A0<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 *=C2=A0 Many of these Preferred-Value =
mappings are either deprecated tags<br>
A mapping isn&#39;t a tag. You could add &quot;for&quot; after &quot;either=
&quot; to fix that.<br>
<br>
Grammatically you need to structure this sentence as one of the following. =
I don&#39;t care which.<br>
... mappings either are ... or are ...<br>
<br>
or<br>
... mappings are either ... or ...<br>
<br>
</div>AP&gt; Good points both. I did a more extensive edit to fix this. In =
the new document, it isn&#39;t &quot;many&quot; but rather &quot;all&quot; =
of the redundant/grandfathered mappings that fit the two categories provide=
d: there are no other kinds of P-V values! To convey all this I put:<br>


<br>
--<br>
Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated tag=
s to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adoption of =
this document (such as the mapping of &quot;no-nyn&quot; to &quot;nn&quot; =
or &quot;i-klingon&quot; to &quot;tlh&quot;). Others are the result of late=
r registrations or additions to the registry as permitted or required by th=
is document (for example, &quot;zh-hakka&quot; was deprecated in favor of t=
he ISO 639-3 code &#39;hak&#39; when this document was adopted).<br>


--<br>
<div><br>
=C2=A0<br>
--<br>
=C2=A0<br>
I=E2=80=99d also be in favor of losing the two =E2=80=9CExample=E2=80=9D pa=
ragraphs as redundant (or incorporating them into the canonicalization rule=
s). They detract from the overall flow, are confusing, and are already cove=
red by other examples in this final text.<br>


<br>
The examples do cover cases not otherwise covered.<br>
<br>
</div>AP&gt; The first one illustrates extension ordering. The second one i=
llustrates preferred-value mapping. These are covered by the text now in a =
way that wasn&#39;t as apparent before. But I digress, since I already said=
 I wasn&#39;t going to muck with them anymore.<br>


<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Addison<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--001636e90c9db69848046a477a42--

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+1


-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lan=
g G=E9rard
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 4:54 AM
To: ltru@ietf.org
Cc: Lang G=E9rard
Subject: [Ltru] Draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22//Issue#40//Section 3.4-point 16

Dear All,

Concerning the point in question, may i suggest to replace the words "the r=
egistyration authority for ISI 3166-1" by the words "the ISO 3166 Maintenan=
ce Agency (ISO 3166/MA)" ?
Bien cordialement.
G=E9rard LANG

-----Message d'origine-----
De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de ltr=
u-request@ietf.org
Envoy=E9 : lundi 18 mai 2009 12:46
=C0 : ltru@ietf.org
Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 51, Issue 22

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Today's Topics:

   1. ABSOLUTELY intolerable (John Cowan)
   2. Re: ABSOLUTELY intolerable (Doug Ewell)
   3. Re-opening issue #40  (was: ABSOLUTELY intolerable)
      (Randy Presuhn)
   4. Re: ABSOLUTELY intolerable (Martin J. D?rst)
   5. Issue 40: Re: Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE: Ltru
      Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42 (Martin J. D?rst)
   6. Re: Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in Section
      2.2.9 (Martin J. D?rst)
   7. Re: can't find a reference for ticket #31 (Martin J. D?rst)
   8. Re: can't find a reference for ticket #31 (Kent Karlsson)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:03:47 -0400
From: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Subject: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <20090517200347.GA27512@mercury.ccil.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii

Doug Ewell scripsit:

> That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP
> trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should do
> as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless there
> is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading to the
> point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

+1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY intole=
rable.

--
Man has no body distinct from his soul,              John Cowan
for that called body is a portion of the soul        cowan@ccil.org
discerned by the five senses,                        http://www.ccil.org/~c=
owan
the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:36:54 -0600
From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <3462F84856E446BEAB6352EE5D9930F4@DGBP7M81>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=3Dflowed; charset=3D"utf-8";
        reply-type=3Doriginal

John Cowan <cowan at ccil dot org> wrote:

> ... if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166 Registration
> Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY intolerable.

That should be a quick, easy, and non-controversial correction to make.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14 http://www.=
ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ?



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 20:00:29 -0700
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
Subject: [Ltru] Re-opening issue #40  (was: ABSOLUTELY intolerable)
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <009e01c9d764$ce1d54e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=3D"iso-8859-1"

Hi -

As co-chair:
I promised I'd declare this "too late" unless it could be proven to cause i=
nteroperability problems.  But since this is apparently so critical to inte=
roperability that you've been reduced to shouting, we'll treat this is a re=
quest to re-open issue #40.

So, issue #40 is reopened.

I'd REALLY appreciate it if folks would include issue numbers on their subj=
ect lines.  I've got other stuff to do, so I'll leave it to the document sh=
epherd to decide when to declare consensus on this and close the issue.

Randy

----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Cowan" <cowan@ccil.org>
> To: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:03 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
>
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
> > That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP
> > trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should
> > do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless
> > there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading
> > to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.
>
> +1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
> Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY
> intolerable.
>
> --
> Man has no body distinct from his soul,              John Cowan
> for that called body is a portion of the soul        cowan@ccil.org
> discerned by the five senses,                        http://www.ccil.org/=
~cowan
> the chief inlets of the soul in this age.  --William Blake
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:17:24 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] ABSOLUTELY intolerable
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Message-ID: <4A1127A4.4010104@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

(as document shepherd)

John, can you say exactly what changes to what document are necessary in yo=
ur view, and which issue this relates to, or point to a mail where that has=
 been done?

[Everybody, please make sure issue numbers don't get lost in mail threads, =
or get added back in when getting back to a specific issue.]

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/18 5:03, John Cowan wrote:
> Doug Ewell scripsit:
>
>> That means we should STOP micro-dinking the text and should STOP
>> trying to dream up ways to make it even more perfect, and we should
>> do as Randy has been trying to tell us: wrap this project up unless
>> there is some piece of text that is wrong or ambiguous or misleading
>> to the point of being ABSOLUTELY intolerable.
>
> +1 in this case, but if the reference to the non-existent ISO 3166
> Registration Authority is still in place, I consider that ABSOLUTELY
> intolerable.
>

--
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:46:00 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: [Ltru] Issue 40: Re: Section 3.4-16 on ISO 3166 vs UN M49 RE:
        Ltru Digest, Vol 50, Issue 42
To: John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <4A112E58.1060700@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

[co-chair and shepherd hat on]

Okay, as Randy has reopened issue 40, and I have found the relevant mail
with the change proposal, I herewith declare that there is consensus for
the fix below (I haven't seen anybody opposing to this factual fix), and
instruct the editors to edit their text accordingly.

Regards,    Martin.

P.S.: Randy, can I ask you to update
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/40? You seem to be
particularly at ease with that tool, whereas I have repeatedly not been
able to get my head around it. To my defense, I can prove that I have
successfully submitted and updated bugs in Bugzilla and Redmine, but the
tool used at the IETF, or the way it's used at the IETF (or maybe it's
just me), somehow always escapes my grip (at the moment, all IETF sites
are very slow (excusable, it's still Sunday for them), and it's
impossible for me to log into the tracking system.

On 2009/05/05 4:48, John Cowan wrote:
> Randy Presuhn scripsit:
>
>> If this is supposed to be a new issue, I will declare it "too late"
>> unless it can be demonstrated to cause interoperability problems.
>
> The sentence in question is the 3rd sentence of bullet point 16 of
> Section 3.4.  It says that registrants SHOULD do something which
> technically is impossible, because the registration authority they
> are asked to petition does not exist.  The error is easily patched by
> s/registration authority/maintenance agency/ in 3.4-16, and leaving it
> in would be an embarrassment.  Please reconsider.
>

--
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:53:49 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #37: AD Issue #4: delete last sentence in
        Section 2.2.9
To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <4A11302D.7080705@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

For the record, as a technical contributor, I agree with others that the
sentence in question should be removed (as it already has been).

I also don't understand Addison when he writes
"Therefore, it is useful to have some documentation explaining why this
ABNF is better."
We didn't delete the reason, the mention of the errors in the previous
ABNF is still there.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/04/29 13:42, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> The AD points out:
>
> --
> AD review issue #4 - for details see
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg12399.html
>
> 4). In Section 2.2.9:
>
>      Note well: although the 'Language-Tag' production appearing in this
>      document is functionally equivalent to the one in [RFC4646], it has
>      been changed to prevent certain errors in well-formedness arising
>      from the old 'grandfathered' production. This version of the ABNF is
>      RECOMMENDED as a replacement for the older version.
>
> (nit) I suggest deleting the last sentence, as it doesn't provide any
> useful information to a reader (as the WG wants
> draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-21bis.txt to replace RFC 4646, it is clear that
> the WG believes that the new ABNF is better). Also I don't think it uses
> RFC 2119 keyword properly.
> --
>
> I think this is not necessary. We have had, as a user community, a long-s=
tanding problem with stale references to BCP 47. We want to help ensure tha=
t implementers and standardizers use the right ABNF. It is well-known that =
many implementers rely excessively or even exclusively on the ABNF to deter=
mine "what is right". Therefore, it is useful to have some documentation ex=
plaining why this ABNF is better.
>
> Proposed resolution: no change
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:21:12 +0900
From: "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
To: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <4A113698.501@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed

Hello Kent,

[co-chair/shepherd head on]

Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for how you
think what currently is:

   [ISO639-2]
               International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
               2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of languages
               -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.

should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
> originally raised, is still there:
>
> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, ?ISO 639-2:199=
8.
> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 cod=
e,
> first edition,? 1998.
>
> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO references.
> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do so
> regularly here.
>
> (not that this is a big deal)
>
>      /kent k
>
>
> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>=
:
>
>> Hi -
>>
>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--
#-# Martin J. D?rst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp


------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:47:16 +0200
From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] can't find a reference for ticket #31
To: "Martin J. D?rst " <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <C6370954.C82A%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=3D"ISO-8859-1"

Quoting directly from 4645bis (version 10), where this reference is ok
(I would have put the start quote a little later, in general for the ISO
references, but now that does not matter):

   [ISO639-2]
              International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
              2:1998.  Codes for the representation of names of
              languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code", October 1998.


        /kent k


Den 2009-05-18 12.21, skrev "Martin J. D?rst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>:

> Hello Kent,
>
> [co-chair/shepherd head on]
>
> Can you please make a definite and positive textual proposal for how you
> think what currently is:
>
>    [ISO639-2]
>                International Organization for Standardization, "ISO 639-
>                2:1998. Codes for the representation of names of languages
>                -- Part 2: Alpha-3 code, first edition", 1998.
>
> should look? I hope this will allow us to close this issue soon.
>
> Regards,   Martin.
>
> On 2009/05/15 19:21, Kent Karlsson wrote:
>> Well, the "first edition" as part of the title, which was the issue
>> originally raised, is still there:
>>
>> [ISO639-2] International Organization for Standardization, ?ISO 639-2:19=
98.
>> Codes for the representation of names of languages -- Part 2: Alpha-3 co=
de,
>> first edition,? 1998.
>>
>> The edition number isn't mentioned at all for the other ISO references.
>> I think it is redundant to mention the year twice, but both drafts do so
>> regularly here.
>>
>> (not that this is a big deal)
>>
>>      /kent k
>>
>>
>> Den 2009-05-15 05.08, skrev "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com=
>:
>>
>>> Hi -
>>>
>>> Before I close this ticket - is everyone happy with the
>>> revised text? (ISO document titles in 4646bis)
>>>
>>> Randy
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ltru mailing list
>>> Ltru@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ltru mailing list
>> Ltru@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>>




------------------------------

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


End of Ltru Digest, Vol 51, Issue 22
************************************
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From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Tue May 19 18:51:23 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-22 submitted...
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[with co-chair and shepherd hat on]

Thanks, great!

Everybody, please check this draft and report any cases that you might 
find where you think the WG consensus on how to address the last round 
of issues has not been implemented correctly.

(an official version of the draft can e.g. be found at
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22)

Please also take section 4.5 of this document as the current base 
version for issue #45. Please comment on whether you think this version 
is okay, or what further changes you think are necessary.

[As a technical contributor] I note one issue:

"which is thus the canonical form in Java." should be
"which is thus the preferred form in Java."

I am fine with the current version of section 4.5 in -22.

[as a co-chair] There hasn't been consensus declared on the issue above,
but I count three people agreeing to the change, and nobody against it,
so it seems pretty clear how consensus will go unless we hear from 
people who are against the change.

(Randy, I leave it to you whether you want to make that a separate issue 
or whether to lump it with issue #45.)

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/20 0:09, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> Per Martin's instructions, I have submitted draft-22.
>
> Inter-locale is now up-to-date also:
>
>     http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html
>     http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.txt
>     http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.xml
>
> Diff links on the site are also working.
>
> Addison (for the editors)
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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=20
Hi. Since Mark is still arguing about this draft=2C I guess it's o.k. to in=
sert my two cents again.
From: Mark Davis <mark at macchiato.com>=20
Date: Tue=2C 19 May 2009 10:45:40 -0700=20
> I should quickly add that I'm also ok with leaving the examples where the=
y are in=20
> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html=2C just in=
 the interests of timeliness.
> Mark

I like Mark's suggested change for 4.5 item 3
--
but would like one more change (although there seems to be no reason to pus=
h for either change at this point): the one I suggested=2C the moving of th=
e second sentence=2C first paragraph:
{=20
"For extlangs=2C the original primary language subtag is also
       replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-
=20
Phillips & Davis        Expires November 19=2C 2009              [Page 67]

Internet-Draft                language-tags                     May 2009

       Value."
=20
}
to the end of what's currently the first (Addison's text) bullet but is the=
 second bullet in Mark's suggested text:
=20
Also Mark's new bullet at the top is a nice=2C an example:

{'For example=2C although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is val=
id=2C it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical m=
apping to 'MM' (Myanmar).'}=3B=20

but I'm not sure it needs to be bulleted at all--this text just goes with t=
he introductory sentence=2C maybe=2C at the top of item 3=2C not in a bulle=
t
=20
Thanks.
=20
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
=20



"3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one. For =
extlangs=2C the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there =
is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.=20

For example=2C although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid=
=2C it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical map=
ping to 'MM' (Myanmar).

The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended language=
 range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example=2C the=
 subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'h=
ak' (Hakka).  { For extlangs=2C the original primary language subtag is als=
o replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.}=20
Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the country=
 name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1." =20

> On Tue=2C May 19=2C 2009 at 10:43=2C Mark Davis <mark at macchiato.com> w=
rote:
>>

Very good.

 Now that I see the result=2C I think you are right about moving the exampl=
es. I'd suggest the following locations (yellow for those who can see it)=
=2C and a slight shortening.=20



4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags Since a particular language tag can=
 be used by many processes=2C language tags SHOULD always be created or gen=
erated in canonical form.=20
A language tag is in 'canonical form' when the tag is well-formed according=
 to the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax) and Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sour=
ces and Interpretation) and it has been canonicalized by applying each of t=
he following steps in order=2C using data from the IANA registry (see Secti=
on 3.1 (Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry)):



Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by single=
ton subtag.=20


For example=2C the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.
For example=2C the language tag "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed a=
nd potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the publ=
ication of this document) but not in a canonical form because the extension=
s are not in alphabetical order=3B the canonical form would be "en-a-aaa-b-=
ccc-bbb-X-xyz".


Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if=
 there is one.=20


The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant tags =
is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips=2C A. and M. Davis=2C =
=93Matching of Language Tags=2C=94 September 2006.)) and might consist of m=
ore than one subtag.=20

Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated tag=
s to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adoption of =
this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "t=
lh"). Others are the result of later registrations or additions to the regi=
stry as permitted or required by this document (for example=2C "zh-hakka" w=
as deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document was a=
dopted).=20

Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there is one. For extla=
ngs=2C the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is a =
primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.=20

For example=2C although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid=
=2C it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical map=
ping to 'MM' (Myanmar).=20

The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended language=
 range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example=2C the=
 subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'h=
ak' (Hakka).=20
Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the country=
 name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1. =

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<html>
<head>
<style>
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{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
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</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<BR>
<H1>&nbsp=3B</H1>
Hi.&nbsp=3BSince Mark is still arguing about this draft=2C I guess it's o.k=
. to insert my two cents again.<BR>From: Mark Davis &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto=
:mark@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">mark at macchiato.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>Date: Tue=2C 19 Ma=
y 2009 10:45:40 -0700 <BR>&gt=3B I should quickly add that I'm also ok with=
 leaving the examples where they are in <BR>&gt=3B <A href=3D"http://www.in=
ter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html" rel=3Dnofollow><FONT col=
or=3D#810081>http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html=
</FONT></A>=2C just in the interests of timeliness.<BR><BR clear=3Dall>&gt=
=3B Mark<BR><BR>I like&nbsp=3BMark's suggested&nbsp=3Bchange&nbsp=3Bfor&nbs=
p=3B4.5 item 3<BR>--<BR>but would like one more change (although there seem=
s to be no reason to push&nbsp=3Bfor either change&nbsp=3Bat this point): t=
he one I suggested=2C the moving of the second sentence=2C first paragraph:=
<BR>{&nbsp=3B<BR>"For extlangs=2C the original primary language subtag is a=
lso<BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B replaced if there i=
s a primary language subtag in the Preferred-<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Phillips &amp=
=3B Davis&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Expires N=
ovember 19=2C 2009&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&=
nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B [Page 67]<BR><BR>Internet-D=
raft&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B language-tags&nbsp=3B&n=
bsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B=
 May 2009<BR><BR>&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Value."<B=
R>&nbsp=3B<BR>}<BR>to the end of what's currently the first (Addison's text=
) bullet but is the second bullet in Mark's suggested text:<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>=
Also Mark's new bullet at the top is a nice=2C an example:<BR>
{'For example=2C although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is val=
id=2C it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical m=
apping to 'MM' (Myanmar).'}=3B <BR>
but I'm not sure it needs to be bulleted at all--this text just goes with t=
he introductory sentence=2C maybe=2C at the top of item 3=2C not in a bulle=
t<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>Thanks.<BR>&nbsp=3B<BR>C. E. Whitehead<BR><A href=3D"mailt=
o:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A><BR>&nbsp=3B<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dim>"3.&nbsp=3B Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=
=2C if there is one. For extlangs=2C the original primary language subtag i=
s also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Valu=
e. </DIV>
<UL>
<LI style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255=2C255=2C153)">For example=2C althoug=
h the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid=2C it is not in canon=
ical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar)=
.</LI></UL>
<UL>
<LI>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended lang=
uage range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example=2C=
 the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) is replaced with the subta=
g 'hak' (Hakka).&nbsp=3B { For extlangs=2C the original primary language su=
btag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferre=
d-Value.}=20
<LI>Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the cou=
ntry name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1."=
 </LI></UL>&nbsp=3B<BR>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>&gt=3B On Tue=2C May 19=2C 2009 at 10:43=2C Mark D=
avis <SPAN dir=3Dltr>&lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:mark%20at%20macchiato.com" rel=
=3Dnofollow>mark at macchiato.com</A>&gt=3B</SPAN> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>&gt=3B&gt=3B<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex=3B MARGIN: 0pt 0=
pt 0pt 0.8ex=3B BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204=2C204=2C204) 1px solid">Very good.<BR>=
<BR>&nbsp=3BNow that I see the result=2C I think you are right about moving=
 the examples. I'd suggest the following locations (yellow for those who ca=
n see it)=2C and a slight shortening.=20
<DIV class=3Dim><BR><BR>
<H3>4.5.&nbsp=3B Canonicalization of Language Tags Since a particular langu=
age tag can be used by many processes=2C language tags SHOULD always be cre=
ated or generated in canonical form. <BR>A language tag is in 'canonical fo=
rm' when the tag is well-formed according to the rules in <A href=3D"http:/=
/www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#syntax" rel=3Dnofo=
llow>Section&nbsp=3B2.1<SPAN> (</SPAN><SPAN>Syntax</SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN></A>=
 and <A href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.h=
tml#sources" rel=3Dnofollow>Section&nbsp=3B2.2<SPAN> (</SPAN><SPAN>Language=
 Subtag Sources and Interpretation</SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN></A> and it has been=
 canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in order=2C using da=
ta from the IANA registry (see <A href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/dr=
aft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#ianaformat" rel=3Dnofollow>Section&nbsp=3B3.1=
<SPAN> (</SPAN><SPAN>Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry</SPAN><SPA=
N>)</SPAN></A>):<BR>
<OL>
<LI>
<DIV class=3Dim>Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII=
 order by singleton subtag. </DIV>
<UL>
<DIV class=3Dim>
<LI>For example=2C the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'=
.</LI></DIV>
<LI style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255=2C255=2C153)">For example=2C the lan=
guage tag "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed and potentially valid (=
extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the publication of this docume=
nt) but not in a canonical form because the extensions are not in alphabeti=
cal order=3B the canonical form would be "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-X-xyz".<BR></L=
I></UL>
<LI>
<DIV class=3Dim>Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Prefe=
rred-Value=2C if there is one. </DIV>
<UL>
<DIV class=3Dim>
<LI>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant t=
ags is an "extended language range" (<A href=3D"http://www.inter-locale.com=
/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html#RFC4647" rel=3Dnofollow>[RFC4647]<SPAN>=
 (</SPAN><SPAN>Phillips=2C A. and M. Davis=2C =93Matching of Language Tags=
=2C=94 September&nbsp=3B2006.</SPAN><SPAN>)</SPAN></A>) and might consist o=
f more than one subtag. </LI></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dim>
<LI>Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated=
 tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adoption=
 of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" t=
o "tlh"). Others are the result of later registrations or additions to the =
registry as permitted or required by this document (for example=2C "zh-hakk=
a" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document w=
as adopted). </LI></DIV></UL>
<LI>
<DIV class=3Dim>Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value=2C if there i=
s one. For extlangs=2C the original primary language subtag is also replace=
d if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value. </DIV>
<UL>
<LI style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255=2C255=2C153)">For example=2C althoug=
h the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid=2C it is not in canon=
ical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar)=
.=20
<DIV class=3Dim></DIV>
<LI>The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended lang=
uage range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example=2C=
 the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese=2C Hakka) is replaced with the subta=
g 'hak' (Hakka).=20
<LI>Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the cou=
ntry name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1. =
</LI></UL></LI></OL></H3></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></body>
</html>=

--_6eb6925e-e70a-4d8e-b45a-b8a65cee9471_--

From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Wed May 20 10:38:15 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A073A145@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A136248.8050005@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:43:09 -0700
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-22 submitted...
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Hi -

> From: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] draft-22 submitted...
...
> [As a technical contributor] I note one issue:
>
> "which is thus the canonical form in Java." should be
> "which is thus the preferred form in Java."
>
> I am fine with the current version of section 4.5 in -22.
>
> [as a co-chair] There hasn't been consensus declared on the issue above,
> but I count three people agreeing to the change, and nobody against it,
> so it seems pretty clear how consensus will go unless we hear from
> people who are against the change.
>
> (Randy, I leave it to you whether you want to make that a separate issue
> or whether to lump it with issue #45.)

Let's lump it in with #45.  (Though I recall long ago arguing for the
deletion of the example altogether, I don't want to re-open that discussion.)

Randy



From alexey.melnikov@isode.com  Sun May 24 05:22:18 2009
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Subject: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
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This is the first batch. I received a fairly long list of comments and 
still deciding what to do with the rest.

1). In Section 3.5:

>    The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be joined by sending
>    a request to <ietf-languages-request@iana.org>.  The list can be
>    hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request of IESG.

It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA 
managing the registry.
The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system or have to 
be routed through IANA systems.
If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing 
list to a third party, then perhaps
the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain, e.g. 
ietf-languages@languages.iana.org.
I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

2). In Section 3.1.1:

>    Each field can be considered a single, logical line of characters.
>    Each field contains a 'field-name' and a 'field-body'.  These are
>    separated by a 'field-separator'.  The field-separator is a COLON
>    character (%x3A) plus any surrounding whitespace.  Each field is
>    terminated by the newline sequence CRLF.  The text in each field MUST
>    be in Unicode Normalization Form C (NFC).

You should consider referencing RFC 5198 here.

3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG 
should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be 
updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.

4). In Section 2.2.4:

>        E.  For historical reasons, the UN numeric code 830 (Channel
>            Islands), which was not registered at the time this document
>            was adopted and had, at that time, no corresponding ISO
>            3166-1 code, MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the

Why is this a MAY?
I.e., should this be registered or not?

>            process described in Section 3.5, provided no ISO 3166-1 code
>            with that exact meaning has been previously registered.

5).  The citation of RFC 2860 in the first paragraph of Section 2.2 is 
improper. 2860 does not define IANA (which is considered a well-known 
abbreviation by the RFC Editor) or any of its properties that are 
relevant to this specific set of registries. So this reference is both 
improper and unnecessary.

6). In Section 2.2.3:

>    2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
>        to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of
>        scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the
>        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
>        bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjunction
>        with this language.  Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be
>        considered for registration.

The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it has misplaced 
punctuation.

7). In Section 3.7:

>    Failure to maintain this record, maintain the corresponding registry,
>    or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document MAY
>    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF
>    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain
>    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.

It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply to 
IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as specified 
in RFC 2860.


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 08:45:45 2009
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Alexey Melnikov <alexey dot melnikov at isode dot com> quoted the Apps 
Review Team:

> 1). In Section 3.5:
> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA 
> managing the registry. The lists either have to be managed by IANA on 
> an IANA system or have to be routed through IANA systems. If there is 
> a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing list to a 
> third party, then perhaps the mailing list should be in a separate 
> subdomain, e.g. ietf-languages at languages.iana.org.
> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

The list is *already* hosted at alvestrand.no and listed, like many 
others, at https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg/ as an IETF Non-WG 
Mailing List.  This passage merely confirms what is already the case, 
for the benefit of those who might be confused by this arrangement or 
who might feel it compromises the legitimacy of the list.

> 3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG 
> should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be 
> updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.

IANA informed the WG that it was switching its registries to XML 
*internally* for maintenance purposes, and that its intent was not to 
require the revision of all existing protocols that did not already use 
XML.  There are already tools and processes that use the Language Subtag 
Registry in its existing format.  The WG argued at great length about 
this and decided not to make this breaking change.

> 4). In Section 2.2.4:
> Why is this a MAY?
> I.e., should this be registered or not?

It may be registered if someone requests it through the normal, uh, 
channels.  (As a technical contributor, I think doing so would be a 
mistake.)  It is almost certainly not an RFC 2119 MAY, but just a 
statement that something is possible.

> 5). The citation of RFC 2860 in the first paragraph of Section 2.2 is 
> improper. 2860 does not define IANA (which is considered a well-known 
> abbreviation by the RFC Editor) or any of its properties that are 
> relevant to this specific set of registries. So this reference is both 
> improper and unnecessary.

Someone probably suggested this reference as a way of expanding the 
abbreviation.  It's been there since RFC 3066.

> 7). In Section 3.7:
> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply 
> to IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as 
> specified in RFC 2860.

It applies to the maintaining authority defined in the RFC that 
establishes the extension.  This is described unambiguously, though 
perhaps not with maximum clarity, in Section 3.7.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 24 14:05:42 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 1). In Section 3.5:
>
> >    The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be joined by sending
> >    a request to <ietf-languages-request@iana.org>.  The list can be
> >    hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request of IESG.
>
> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA
> managing the registry.
> The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system or have to
> be routed through IANA systems.
> If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing
> list to a third party, then perhaps
> the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain, e.g.
> ietf-languages@languages.iana.org.
> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.
...

As co-chair:

I've entered this into the tracker as ltru issue #48.

For sanity's sake,  PLEASE include the issue number in your postings
on this topic, and PLEASE do not comment on multiple issues in a single
message.  Mixing issues in a thread only slows things down.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 24 14:09:27 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 2). In Section 3.1.1:
>
> >    Each field can be considered a single, logical line of characters.
> >    Each field contains a 'field-name' and a 'field-body'.  These are
> >    separated by a 'field-separator'.  The field-separator is a COLON
> >    character (%x3A) plus any surrounding whitespace.  Each field is
> >    terminated by the newline sequence CRLF.  The text in each field MUST
> >    be in Unicode Normalization Form C (NFC).
>
> You should consider referencing RFC 5198 here.
...

As co-chair...

I've entered this into the tracker as issue #49.

Please include this issue number in your subject line in any postings
on this topic, and PLEASE do not post on multiple issues in one message.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 24 14:13:06 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG
> should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be
> updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.
...

As co-chair:  I've entered this into the tracked as issue #50.
PLEASE include this number in the subject line of any
messages commenting on this issue.  Please do not
comment on multiple issues in a single message.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 24 14:16:56 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 4). In Section 2.2.4:
>
> >        E.  For historical reasons, the UN numeric code 830 (Channel
> >            Islands), which was not registered at the time this document
> >            was adopted and had, at that time, no corresponding ISO
> >            3166-1 code, MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the
>
> Why is this a MAY?
> I.e., should this be registered or not?
>
> >            process described in Section 3.5, provided no ISO 3166-1 code
> >            with that exact meaning has been previously registered.
...

As co-chair:

This has been entered into the track as issue #51.  Please include the
issue number in the subject line of any posts on this topic.  Please
limited each thread to a single topic.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 24 14:20:34 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 5).  The citation of RFC 2860 in the first paragraph of Section 2.2 is
> improper. 2860 does not define IANA (which is considered a well-known
> abbreviation by the RFC Editor) or any of its properties that are
> relevant to this specific set of registries. So this reference is both
> improper and unnecessary.
...

As co-chair...

This has been entered into the tracker as issue #52.
We give these issues numbers for a reason.

Randy



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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 6). In Section 2.2.3:
>
> >    2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
> >        to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of
> >        scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the
> >        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
> >        bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjunction
> >        with this language.  Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be
> >        considered for registration.
>
> The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it has misplaced
> punctuation.
...

As co-chair: entered into the tracker as #53.  Please use this number
in your subject line when commenting on this issue.

Randy



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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 7). In Section 3.7:
>
> >    Failure to maintain this record, maintain the corresponding registry,
> >    or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document MAY
> >    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF
> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain
> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.
>
> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply to
> IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as specified
> in RFC 2860.
...

As co-chair:  entered into the tracker as issue #54.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Sun May 24 14:30:00 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
>
> This is the first batch. I received a fairly long list of comments and
> still deciding what to do with the rest.
...

As co-chair...

These have been entered into the issues tracker at
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/report/1

Followup discussion will take place in single-issue threads (please!)
in order to make it easier to determine consensus on what to
do about each of these.

Randy



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Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> 1). In Section 3.5:
>
> >    The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be joined by sending
> >    a request to <ietf-languages-request@iana.org>.  The list can be
> >    hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request of IESG.
>
> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA
> managing the registry.

What interaction would be needed?  ietf-languages@iana.org has
been operated by a thrid party for many years without issue.

> The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system or have to
> be routed through IANA systems.

This is simply not true.

> If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing
> list to a third party, then perhaps
> the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain, e.g.
> ietf-languages@languages.iana.org.

Why?

> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

I disagree.  The text in question describes an arrangement that
has worked well for a long time.

Randy


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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 2). In Section 3.1.1:
>
> >    Each field can be considered a single, logical line of characters.
> >    Each field contains a 'field-name' and a 'field-body'.  These are
> >    separated by a 'field-separator'.  The field-separator is a COLON
> >    character (%x3A) plus any surrounding whitespace.  Each field is
> >    terminated by the newline sequence CRLF.  The text in each field MUST
> >    be in Unicode Normalization Form C (NFC).
>
> You should consider referencing RFC 5198 here.
...

As a technical contributor...

RFC 5198 imposes additional constraints.  These may be harmless, but
I'm reluctant to endorse technical change this late in the process.  Perhaps
those who contributed to the development of RFC 5198 would care to
comment?

Randy



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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG
> should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be
> updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.
...

As co-chair:

The working group considered and extensively discussed this alternative
in the summer of 2006, reaching a peak in September 2006 when IANA
announced its intent to use XML.  There was no clear consensus for change.
It had previously been discussed during the work on RFC 4646, and in that
case, too, failed to gain a critical mass of support.

Since this would be a significant change to the specification and would
directly impact tools which process the registry, I'd only be willing to
entertain such a change if there were overwhelming support from the WG.

As a technical contributor:

As I've said before, I think XML makes sense.  However, I do not think the
extra delay required to change the specification would be worthwhile, and
consequently would only go along with such a change if there were strong
support from the implementation community.

Randy



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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 4). In Section 2.2.4:
>
> >        E.  For historical reasons, the UN numeric code 830 (Channel
> >            Islands), which was not registered at the time this document
> >            was adopted and had, at that time, no corresponding ISO
> >            3166-1 code, MAY be entered into the IANA registry via the
>
> Why is this a MAY?
> I.e., should this be registered or not?
>
> >            process described in Section 3.5, provided no ISO 3166-1 code
> >            with that exact meaning has been previously registered.
...

As a technical contributor:

"MAY" is the correct word.  There is no requirement that this code be
registered or precluded from registration.  If/when someone
gets around to asking that it be registered, then the section 3.5
process would apply.

Randy



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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 5).  The citation of RFC 2860 in the first paragraph of Section 2.2 is
> improper. 2860 does not define IANA (which is considered a well-known
> abbreviation by the RFC Editor) or any of its properties that are
> relevant to this specific set of registries. So this reference is both
> improper and unnecessary.
...

As a technical contributor...

Whole-heartedly agree.  The reference should be deleted.

Randy



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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 6). In Section 2.2.3:
>
> >    2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
> >        to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of
> >        scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the
> >        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
> >        bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjunction
> >        with this language.  Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be
> >        considered for registration.
>
> The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it has misplaced
> punctuation.
...

As a technical contributor:  Yes.

First: either
s/": alpha-4 script codes,/: alpha-4 script codes,"/
or, better still,
s/]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts": alpha-4 script codes//

Secondly,
s/bodies, denoting the/ bodies.  A script subtag denotes a/

Propose replacement text, with additional edits, would be:
   2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and are defined according
        to [ISO15924] or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924
        registration authority or governing standardization bodies.
       A script subtag denotes a script or writing system used in
       conjunction with a language.  Only codes assigned by ISO
      15924 will be considered for registration.

Randy



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Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
...
> 7). In Section 3.7:
>
> >    Failure to maintain this record, maintain the corresponding registry,
> >    or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document MAY
> >    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF
> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain
> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.
>
> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply to
> IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as specified
> in RFC 2860.
...

As a technical contributor:

This text pertains to a "maintaining authority" for a registry referenced from
the IANA-maintained "extensions registry".  The "this record" refers to
information maintained by that outside "maintaining authority" in the
previous paragraph.

I think the comment could potentially be germane in the hypothetical case
where one of these "maintaining authorities" somehow ended up being
IANA itself.

Randy



From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 15:53:18 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1)
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Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com> wrote:

> For sanity's sake,  PLEASE include the issue number in your postings 
> on this topic, and PLEASE do not comment on multiple issues in a 
> single message.  Mixing issues in a thread only slows things down.

Very well.

> 1). In Section 3.5:
> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA
> managing the registry. The lists either have to be managed by IANA on
> an IANA system or have to be routed through IANA systems. If there is
> a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing list to a
> third party, then perhaps the mailing list should be in a separate
> subdomain, e.g. ietf-languages at languages.iana.org.
> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

The list is *already* hosted at alvestrand.no and listed, like many
others, at https://datatracker.ietf.org/list/nonwg/ as an IETF Non-WG
Mailing List.  This passage merely confirms what is already the case,
for the benefit of those who might be confused by this arrangement or
who might feel it compromises the legitimacy of the list.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 15:54:18 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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> 3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG
> should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be
> updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.

IANA informed the WG that it was switching its registries to XML
*internally* for maintenance purposes, and that its intent was not to
require the revision of all existing protocols that did not already use
XML.  There are already tools and processes that use the Language Subtag
Registry in its existing format.  The WG argued at great length about
this and decided not to make this breaking change.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 15:55:14 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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> 4). In Section 2.2.4:
> Why is this a MAY?
> I.e., should this be registered or not?

It may be registered if someone requests it through the normal, uh,
channels.  (As a technical contributor, I think doing so would be a
mistake.)  It is almost certainly not an RFC 2119 MAY, but just a
statement that something is possible.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 15:56:16 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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> 5). The citation of RFC 2860 in the first paragraph of Section 2.2 is
> improper. 2860 does not define IANA (which is considered a well-known
> abbreviation by the RFC Editor) or any of its properties that are
> relevant to this specific set of registries. So this reference is both
> improper and unnecessary.

Someone probably suggested this reference as a way of expanding the
abbreviation.  It's been there since RFC 3066.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 15:57:12 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintainers of additional registries (Apps #7)
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> 7). In Section 3.7:
> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply
> to IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as
> specified in RFC 2860.

It applies to the maintaining authority defined in the RFC that
establishes the extension.  This is described unambiguously, though
perhaps not with maximum clarity, in Section 3.7.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ 


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 16:23:56 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2)
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Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com> wrote:

> RFC 5198 imposes additional constraints.  These may be harmless, but 
> I'm reluctant to endorse technical change this late in the process. 
> Perhaps those who contributed to the development of RFC 5198 would 
> care to comment?

RFC 5198 actually allows certain things which we do not allow in the 
Registry--NFC is only a SHOULD in 5198 but a MUST in draft-4646bis, and 
5198 allows the bizarre CR NUL sequence which is forbidden in the 
Registry.  So referencing 5198 would still require us to list the 
additional constraints *we* impose.

Section 3.1.1 of the draft already has plenty of external references. 
The only reason to add a reference to 5198 would be to further increase 
the number of cross-references between RFCs, or to effect a technical 
change for some unspecified reason.  I oppose this change.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
(listed in Acknowledgments section of 5198)
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 16:46:18 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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Randy Presuhn <randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com> wrote:

> As I've said before, I think XML makes sense.  However, I do not think 
> the extra delay required to change the specification would be 
> worthwhile, and consequently would only go along with such a change if 
> there were strong support from the implementation community.

XML does make sense, if you're designing a format from scratch.  As it 
turned out, we agreed on the record-jar-like format during the RFC 4646 
process, sometime in 2004, for reasons that would not be appropriate to 
exhume and second-guess 5 years later.

Since there are people already using the existing format, this change 
would result not only in extra delay in the specification process but 
also a breaking change for implementers.  As Randy, said, the WG 
discussed this extensively; there were at least two and possibly three 
separate waves of discussion.  There has to be a point where we accept 
the WG's decision and move on.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Sun May 24 18:23:51 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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In addition to what Randy and Doug have said, as a technical contributor:

- There are several XML formats for the registry developed by (former) 
members of the WG. If IANA wanted to use one of these for internal use, 
or as an alternate format, this would cut down their development time. 
I'm also sure that IANA would get some advice from the WG (or the 
post-WG mailing list) if they ask.

- The language subtag registry, especially after the update currently 
being worked on, is probably one of the bigger if not the biggest 
registry that IANA is handling. Also, it has been designed for automatic 
download and processing. Both for internal work and for publication and 
automatic download and processing, it may be prudent for IANA to start 
XML with smaller registries. Even if IANA has the necessary bandwidth, 
some of the people interested in downloading, e.g. from small language 
communities, may not have high bandwidth access.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/25 7:55, Doug Ewell wrote:
>> 3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG
>> should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be
>> updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.
>
> IANA informed the WG that it was switching its registries to XML
> *internally* for maintenance purposes, and that its intent was not to
> require the revision of all existing protocols that did not already use
> XML. There are already tools and processes that use the Language Subtag
> Registry in its existing format. The WG argued at great length about
> this and decided not to make this breaking change.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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[as a technical contributor]

As a statement that something with regards to the registry is possible, 
it seems very appropriate to me that this is a MAY, in the RFC 2119 sense.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/25 7:56, Doug Ewell wrote:
>> 4). In Section 2.2.4:
>> Why is this a MAY?
>> I.e., should this be registered or not?
>
> It may be registered if someone requests it through the normal, uh,
> channels. (As a technical contributor, I think doing so would be a
> mistake.) It is almost certainly not an RFC 2119 MAY, but just a
> statement that something is possible.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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Yes, it has been there since a long time. But I personally agree with 
the commenter that it should be removed if IANA is considered a 
well-known abbreviation (and I certainly consider IANA a well-known 
abbreviation in the context of the IETF, which includes this WGs work).

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/25 7:57, Doug Ewell wrote:
>> 5). The citation of RFC 2860 in the first paragraph of Section 2.2 is
>> improper. 2860 does not define IANA (which is considered a well-known
>> abbreviation by the RFC Editor) or any of its properties that are
>> relevant to this specific set of registries. So this reference is both
>> improper and unnecessary.
>
> Someone probably suggested this reference as a way of expanding the
> abbreviation. It's been there since RFC 3066.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Sun May 24 18:51:30 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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Also as co-chair:

It may also help to look at our charter for this point. The charter, at
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html, says:

The working group will clarify text where necessary. It may also
make adjustments to the registration process and the form of the
registry if this is deemed appropriate based on ongoing registration
and operational experience. These adjustments and clarifications
are not expected to delay the progress of the work.

First, please note the word "adjustments" for "the form of the 
registry". It may be possible to see a change to XML as an "adjustment", 
but it would be a rather big one. Second, please note the words "based 
on ongoing registration and operational experience". I have not heard 
about any registration or operational experience that would suggest that 
we need to switch to XML. Even if we were at the start of our WG work 
(rather than close to the end), these two points would cast strong 
doubts on whether an change to XML would even be within our charter.

Third, please note the words "are not expected to delay the progress of 
the work". It is unclear whether a transition to XML, in the event it 
would it have been appropriate under the above circumstances, could have 
been done without delaying the WG work. However, it is very clear that 
if the WG were instructed to change to an XML format at this point in 
time, this would significantly delay our work, which would be against 
our charter.

Overall, I think it's a great idea that IANA is working towards using 
XML. For many registries which are currently maintained just in an 
ad-hoc, ill-defined format, this could potentially be a great 
improvement. However, it would be strange if the IETF took a willingness 
of IANA to move to XML as an order to IETF WGs to change their formats 
to XML. This would reflect extremely badly on the autonomy of the IETF 
and its ability to make decisions in the best technical interest of the 
relevant communities.

Regards,    Martin.


On 2009/05/25 7:06, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: "Alexey Melnikov"<alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
>> To: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
> ...
>> 3). Registry format: IANA is switching its registries to XML. The WG
>> should consider switching the format. Alternatively 4646bis should be
>> updated to specify reasons for keeping the existing format.
> ...
>
> As co-chair:
>
> The working group considered and extensively discussed this alternative
> in the summer of 2006, reaching a peak in September 2006 when IANA
> announced its intent to use XML.  There was no clear consensus for change.
> It had previously been discussed during the work on RFC 4646, and in that
> case, too, failed to gain a critical mass of support.
>
> Since this would be a significant change to the specification and would
> directly impact tools which process the registry, I'd only be willing to
> entertain such a change if there were overwhelming support from the WG.
>
> As a technical contributor:
>
> As I've said before, I think XML makes sense.  However, I do not think the
> extra delay required to change the specification would be worthwhile, and
> consequently would only go along with such a change if there were strong
> support from the implementation community.
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 19:01:16 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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Martin J. Dürst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> wrote:

>>> 4). In Section 2.2.4:
>>> Why is this a MAY?
>>> I.e., should this be registered or not?
>>
>> It may be registered if someone requests it through the normal, uh, 
>> channels. (As a technical contributor, I think doing so would be a 
>> mistake.) It is almost certainly not an RFC 2119 MAY, but just a 
>> statement that something is possible.
>
> As a statement that something with regards to the registry is 
> possible, it seems very appropriate to me that this is a MAY, in the 
> RFC 2119 sense.

I'm not seeing it, but I'll believe you if you say so:

5. MAY   This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is
   truly optional.  One vendor may choose to include the item because a
   particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that
   it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item.
   An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be
   prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does
   include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the
   same vein an implementation which does include a particular option
   MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which
   does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the
   option provides.)

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From doug@ewellic.org  Sun May 24 21:24:57 2009
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From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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Martin J. Dürst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> quoted the WG 
Charter:

> The working group will clarify text where necessary. It may also make 
> adjustments to the registration process and the form of the registry 
> if this is deemed appropriate based on ongoing registration and 
> operational experience. These adjustments and clarifications are not 
> expected to delay the progress of the work.

In fact, IIRC this very general wording was inserted into the charter to 
allow the possibility of changing from "record-jar-like format with hex 
NCRs" to "record-jar-like format in UTF-8," which is what we did.  It 
could conceivably have allowed for changing the Registry to XML or any 
other suitable format, but as Martin noted, that's more of an overhaul 
than an adjustment.

> For many registries which are currently maintained just in an ad-hoc, 
> ill-defined format, this could potentially be a great improvement.

The registry used in the RFC 1766/3066 era leaps instantly to mind.

> However, it would be strange if the IETF took a willingness of IANA to 
> move to XML as an order to IETF WGs to change their formats to XML. 
> This would reflect extremely badly on the autonomy of the IETF and its 
> ability to make decisions in the best technical interest of the 
> relevant communities.

+1

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


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Subject: [Ltru] [Fwd: Fwd: Last Call: draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management (Guidelines for Considering Operations and Management of New	Protocols and Protocol Extensions) to BCP]
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[Forwarded as requested. I hope that doesn't affect us anymore.]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Fwd: Last Call: draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management 
(Guidelines for Considering Operations and Management of New	Protocols 
and Protocol Extensions) to BCP
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:52:38 -0600
From: Cullen Jennings <fluffy@cisco.com>
To: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>
References: <20090519133936.DC6B63A6AC0@core3.amsl.com>


Hi All,

I'm not sure many people are aware of this BCP for adding a new
Manageability Considerations Sections to drafts but I suspect it will
impact nearly all of our new protocol work so you might want to make
folks in your WG aware of it. It has some good pointers about things
to think about. It's in LC so now would be a good time for people to
read it.

Cullen



Begin forwarded message:

> From: The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
> Date: May 19, 2009 7:39:36 AM MDT (CA)
> To: IETF-Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org
> Subject: Last Call: draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management
> (Guidelines for Considering Operations and Management of New
> Protocols and Protocol Extensions) to BCP
> Reply-To: ietf@ietf.org
>
> The IESG has received a request from the Operations and Management
> Area
> Working Group WG (opsawg) to consider the following document:
>
> - 'Guidelines for Considering Operations and Management of New
> Protocols
>   and Protocol Extensions '
>   <draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management-07.txt> as a BCP
>
> The IESG plans to make a decision in the next few weeks, and solicits
> final comments on this action.  Please send substantive comments to
> the
> ietf@ietf.org mailing lists by 2009-06-02. Exceptionally,
> comments may be sent to iesg@ietf.org instead. In either case, please
> retain the beginning of the Subject line to allow automated sorting.
>
> The file can be obtained via
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-opsawg-operations-and-management-07.txt
>
>
> IESG discussion can be tracked via
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/public/pidtracker.cgi?command=view_id&dTag=16452&rfc_flag=0
>
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce



-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From cewcathar@hotmail.com  Tue May 26 08:36:54 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1)
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Hi=2C I joined the list in 2006 as a complete outsider and it works well as=
 far as I can see=3B there are occasionally minor issues but so far no one'=
s request for a subtag has been forgotten and decisions can be appealed to =
ietf!
=20

(I'm sorry we don't have a bit more diversity on the list's more 'permanent=
' membership=2C but it's up to individuals to subscribe to the list=2C not =
to ietf-languages to recruit them=2C and in general it seems that the compu=
ting is dominated still by white males.  We do have several women permanent=
ly on the list)

=20

Best=2C

=20

C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com=20

From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>=20

Date: Sun=2C 24 May 2009 14:45:23 -0700=20
> Hi -

> As a technical contributor...

>> 1). In Section 3.5:
>>
>> >    The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be joined by sendin=
g
>> >    a request to <ietf-languages-request at iana.org>.  The list can be
>> >    hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request of IESG.
>>
>> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA
>> managing the registry.

> What interaction would be needed?  ietf-languages at iana.org has
> been operated by a thrid party for many years without issue.

> > The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system or have t=
o
> > be routed through IANA systems.

> This is simply not true.

>> If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing
>> list to a third party=2C then perhaps
>> the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain=2C e.g.
>> ietf-languages at languages.iana.org.

Why?

> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

I disagree.  The text in question describes an arrangement that
has worked well for a long time.

Randy



--_95f9bea8-a1a9-4cd4-adf0-8dd6ffd1112e_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
<BR>
<H1><FONT size=3D2>Hi=2C I joined the list in 2006 as a complete outsider a=
nd it works well as far as I can see=3B there are occasionally minor issues=
 but so far no one's request for a subtag has been forgotten and decisions =
can be appealed to ietf!</FONT></H1>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
(I'm sorry we don't have a bit more diversity on the list's more 'permanent=
' membership=2C but it's up to individuals to subscribe to the list=2C not =
to ietf-languages to recruit them=2C and&nbsp=3Bin general it&nbsp=3Bseems =
that the computing is dominated still by white males.&nbsp=3B We do have se=
veral women permanently on the list)<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Best=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A> <BR>
From: "Randy Presuhn" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">=
randy_presuhn at mindspring.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>
Date: Sun=2C 24 May 2009 14:45:23 -0700 <BR><PRE>&gt=3B Hi -

&gt=3B As a technical contributor...

&gt=3B&gt=3B 1). In Section 3.5:
&gt=3B&gt=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be j=
oined by sending
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    a request to &lt=3Bietf-languages-request at iana.or=
g&gt=3B.  The list can be
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request =
of IESG.
&gt=3B&gt=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact wi=
th IANA
&gt=3B&gt=3B managing the registry.

&gt=3B What interaction would be needed?  ietf-languages at iana.org has
&gt=3B been operated by a thrid party for many years without issue.

&gt=3B &gt=3B The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system=
 or have to
&gt=3B &gt=3B be routed through IANA systems.

&gt=3B This is simply not true.

&gt=3B&gt=3B If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this m=
ailing
&gt=3B&gt=3B list to a third party=2C then perhaps
&gt=3B&gt=3B the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain=2C e.g.
&gt=3B&gt=3B ietf-languages at languages.iana.org.

Why?

&gt=3B I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

I disagree.  The text in question describes an arrangement that
has worked well for a long time.

Randy
<BR><BR></PRE></body>
</html>=

--_95f9bea8-a1a9-4cd4-adf0-8dd6ffd1112e_--

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To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:39:39 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:41:24 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Tue May 26 17:13:58 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
>
> > As a technical contributor...
> > 
> > Whole-heartedly agree.  The reference should be deleted.
> > 
> > Randy
> 
> I agree, although I note it is something that we (in this or
> previous incarnations as a WG) have never modified: we inherited it from RFC 3066.

Both as co-chair and as contributor..

There *have* been previous requests to get rid of it.
I find "we inherited it" rather unconvincing for a bit of
text that adds no value whatsoever to the document.

Randy



From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Tue May 26 17:20:06 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:39 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
...
> I would suggest, in place of Randy's proposal, the following replacement text:
> 
> --
>        Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
>        to [ISO15924] ("Codes for the representation of the names of
>        scripts: alpha-4 script codes"), or subsequently assigned by the
>        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
>        bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used in conjunction
>        with this language.
> --

As a technical contributor...

(1) I don't find the parenthetic material helpful.
(2) I have a problem with "denote *the* script".  "denote *a* script"
    would be fine with me.
(3) I assume your omission of "Only codes assigned by ISO
    15924 will be considered for registration." was unintentional,
    since dropping that sentence would seem to be a technical change
    from the I-D that was last-called.

Randy


From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com  Tue May 26 17:48:03 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Addison is right about *the* script. In a language tag such as "az-Latn" the
script subtag *is* denoting the script for the language. But I agree that
the language is a bit awkward. You're right about the omission later.

My suggestion:

Script subtags consist of four letters and are defined according to
[ISO15924] "Codes for the representation of the names of scripts: alpha-4
script codes". They are either defined directly in [ISO15924], or
subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing
standardization bodies. The presence of a script subtag in a language tag
indicates associated content being in a writing system corresponding to that
script. Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for
registration.

Mark


On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 17:25, Randy Presuhn
<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>wrote:

> Hi -
>
> > From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> > To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group"
> <ltru@ietf.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:39 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
> ...
> > I would suggest, in place of Randy's proposal, the following replacement
> text:
> >
> > --
> >        Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
> >        to [ISO15924] ("Codes for the representation of the names of
> >        scripts: alpha-4 script codes"), or subsequently assigned by the
> >        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
> >        bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used in
> conjunction
> >        with this language.
> > --
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
> (1) I don't find the parenthetic material helpful.
> (2) I have a problem with "denote *the* script".  "denote *a* script"
>    would be fine with me.
> (3) I assume your omission of "Only codes assigned by ISO
>    15924 will be considered for registration." was unintentional,
>    since dropping that sentence would seem to be a technical change
>    from the I-D that was last-called.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--001636c92ea89eea5f046ada3619
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Addison is right about *the* script. In a language tag such as &quot;az-Lat=
n&quot; the script subtag *is* denoting the script for the language. But I =
agree that the language is a bit awkward. You&#39;re right about the omissi=
on later.<br>
<br>My suggestion:<br><br><div style=3D"margin-left: 40px;" class=3D"im"> S=
cript subtags consist of four letters and are defined according to [ISO1592=
4] &quot;Codes for the representation of the names of scripts: alpha-4 scri=
pt codes&quot;. They are either defined directly in [ISO15924], or subseque=
ntly assigned by the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standard=
ization bodies. The presence of a script subtag in a language tag indicates=
 associated content being in a writing system corresponding to that script.=
 Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for registration.<br>
</div><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 17:25, Randy Pre=
suhn <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">=
randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0p=
t 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Hi -<br>
<br>
&gt; From: &quot;Phillips, Addison&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amaz=
on.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; To: &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mind=
spring.com">randy_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;; &quot;LTRU Working Group&=
quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:39 PM<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)<br>
...<br>
<div class=3D"im">&gt; I would suggest, in place of Randy&#39;s proposal, t=
he following replacement text:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Script subtags consist of four letters and =
were defined according<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to [ISO15924] (&quot;Codes for the represen=
tation of the names of<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0scripts: alpha-4 script codes&quot;), or su=
bsequently assigned by the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ISO 15924 registration authority or governi=
ng standardization<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bodies. Script subtags denote the script or=
 writing system used in conjunction<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0with this language.<br>
&gt; --<br>
<br>
</div>As a technical contributor...<br>
<br>
(1) I don&#39;t find the parenthetic material helpful.<br>
(2) I have a problem with &quot;denote *the* script&quot;. =C2=A0&quot;deno=
te *a* script&quot;<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would be fine with me.<br>
(3) I assume your omission of &quot;Only codes assigned by ISO<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A015924 will be considered for registration.&quot; was unintent=
ional,<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0since dropping that sentence would seem to be a technical cha=
nge<br>
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from the I-D that was last-called.<br>
<div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Randy<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

--001636c92ea89eea5f046ada3619--

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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 18:06:00 -0700
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From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se  Wed May 27 01:09:58 2009
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From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Den 2009-05-27 02.25, skrev "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:

> Hi -
> 
>> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
>> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group"
>> <ltru@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:39 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
> ...
>> I would suggest, in place of Randy's proposal, the following replacement
>> text:
>> 
>> --
>>        Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
>>        to [ISO15924] ("Codes for the representation of the names of
>>        scripts: alpha-4 script codes"), or subsequently assigned by the
>>        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
>>        bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used in
>> conjunction
>>        with this language.
>> --
> 
> As a technical contributor...
> 
> (1) I don't find the parenthetic material helpful.

If the title is kept here (in parentheses), the title should be the
actual title of that standard:

Information and documentation -- Codes for the representation of names of
scripts

See 
http://www.iso.org/iso/search.htm?qt=15924&searchSubmit=Search&sort=rel&type
=simple&published=on.

The references section has it right.

    /kent k



From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Wed May 27 02:07:56 2009
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Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:50:17 +0900
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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On 2009/05/27 10:06, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> Well then somebody ;-) decide that the consensus

[chair hat on]

On the comments received recently (issues 48-54), I plan to evaluate 
consensus in the next few days. However, I'd appreciate if there were 
more people contributing to the technical discussion or expressing their 
preferences (please do so on each issue separately!).


>is to remove it and let's be done with it. But at this particular point in the document's development (after after last call), I tend to be allergic to changes, especially ones that a) have never hurt in the past and b) apparently don't hurt anything.

I agree, except that these comments come from our AD (or via our AD, 
which is essentially the same).

[chair hat off]
We may as well agree with this one, which is harmless, so that the 
commenter feels s/he achieved something :-).

Regards,   Martin.

> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:19 PM
>> To: LTRU Working Group
>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps
>> #5)
>>
>> Hi -
>>
>>> From: "Phillips, Addison"<addison@amazon.com>
>>> To: "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working
>> Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:41 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps
>> #5)
>>>> As a technical contributor...
>>>>
>>>> Whole-heartedly agree.  The reference should be deleted.
>>>>
>>>> Randy
>>> I agree, although I note it is something that we (in this or
>>> previous incarnations as a WG) have never modified: we inherited
>> it from RFC 3066.
>>
>> Both as co-chair and as contributor..
>>
>> There *have* been previous requests to get rid of it.
>> I find "we inherited it" rather unconvincing for a bit of
>> text that adds no value whatsoever to the document.
>>
>> Randy


-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From doug@ewellic.org  Wed May 27 06:09:24 2009
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Subject: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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Martin asked for more people's input on deleting the reference to RFC 
2860.  Here's mine:

I don't personally care whether it's in or out.  I DO care that this 
extremely minor point is helping to hold both drafts hostage while we 
continue to argue and wring our hands over it.  People are waiting for 
the ISO 639-3-based subtags.  I favor the resolution that will get this 
document out the door with the least additional delay.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From doug@ewellic.org  Wed May 27 06:50:18 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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Since Martin asked for additional feedback:

I am OK with whatever decision is made here.  I accept that my 
understanding of RFC 2119 "MAY" MAY be flawed and incomplete.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From doug@ewellic.org  Wed May 27 06:51:53 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Since Martin asked for additional feedback:

The extra inclusion of the title of the ISO standard after its reference 
(here and elsewhere) seems pointless to me; I don't tend to see that 
sort of redundancy when referring to other RFCs.  But I don't think this 
is worth delaying the drafts for another few weeks or months, so I am OK 
with any decision either to remove this text or leave it in.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ


From addison@amazon.com  Wed May 27 07:06:17 2009
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From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 07:05:29 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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From cewcathar@hotmail.com  Wed May 27 09:36:36 2009
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Cc: alexey.melnikov@isode.com
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintainers of additional registries (Apps #7)
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Hi=2C

=20

I agree that it is not clear to whom the text in 3.7 (paragraph 5) refers=
=3B it gave me a few problems on the first few reads (because it is IANA wh=
o is maintaining the registry of allocated single-character subtags that is=
 mentioned right above this paragraph while the maintaining authority who r=
equests registration of a single-character subtag develops/maintains an rfc=
/specification stating what is canonical=2C etc.=2C but I realized from pre=
vious text that it must be the maintaining authority!

=20

Nevertheless=2C a revision stating this explicitly would be nice:

=20

>> >    Failure on the part of the registering authority to maintain the rf=
c described above=2C

{COMMENT: and what about the record-jar format registry listing all single-=
character subtags allocated that is maintained by IANA=2C right???}
>> >    or failure to meet other conditions imposed by this section of this=
 document MAY
>> >    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IET=
F
>> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to mainta=
in
>> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.

=20

=20

I still don't like the passive "may be appealed to . . . "

=20

I'm thinking that in this case "petition" is the word=3B someone petitions =
the IESG when someone fails to do this=3B I'm not sure why it's called an a=
ppeal=3B thus:

=20

>> >    If the registering authority fails to maintain the rfc described ab=
ove=2C=20

{COMMENT: and what about the record-jar format registry listing all single-=
character subtags allocated that is maintained by IANA=2C right???}
>> >    or fails to meet other conditions imposed by this section of this d=
ocument=2C a petition MAY
>> >    be made to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF
>> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to mainta=
in
>> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.

=20

=20

 (however I probably am not that informed=3B appeal may be the term you nee=
d if it's what the IESG calls this petition) . . .

=20

=20

=20

Best=2C

=20

C. E. Whitehead

cewcathar@hotmail.com=20





=20
From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>=20

Date: Sun=2C 24 May 2009 15:33:50 -0700=20
Hi -

>> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov at isode.com>
>> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru at ietf.org>
>> Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>=3B "Randy Presuhn" <=
randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>
>> Sent: Sunday=2C May 24=2C 2009 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team re=
view
...
>> 7). In Section 3.7:
>>
>> >    Failure to maintain this record=2C maintain the corresponding regis=
try=2C
>> >    or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document M=
AY
>> >    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IET=
F
>> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to mainta=
in
>> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.
>>
>> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply to
>> IANA=2C then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as specifie=
d
>> in RFC 2860.
> ...

> As a technical contributor:

> This text pertains to a "maintaining authority" for a registry referenced=
 from
> the IANA-maintained "extensions registry".  The "this record" refers to
> information maintained by that outside "maintaining authority" in the
> previous paragraph.

I think the comment could potentially be germane in the hypothetical case
where one of these "maintaining authorities" somehow ended up being
IANA itself.

Randy

--_14bb5d8c-9dab-4b26-b804-4aeeb7e6548e_
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<html>
<head>
<style>
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px=3B
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt=3B
font-family:Verdana
}
</style>
</head>
<body class=3D'hmmessage'>
Hi=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I agree that it is not clear to whom the text in 3.7 (paragraph 5)&nbsp=3Br=
efers=3B it gave me a few problems on the first few reads (because it is IA=
NA who is maintaining the registry of allocated single-character subtags th=
at is mentioned right above this paragraph&nbsp=3Bwhile the maintaining aut=
hority who requests registration of a single-character subtag develops/main=
tains an rfc/specification stating what is canonical=2C etc.=2C but I reali=
zed from previous text that it must be the maintaining authority!<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Nevertheless=2C a revision stating this explicitly would be nice:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
<EM>&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B Failure on the part of the =
registering authority&nbsp=3Bto maintain the rfc described above=2C</EM><BR=
>
<EM>{COMMENT: and what about the record-jar format registry listing all sin=
gle-character subtags allocated that is maintained by IANA=2C right???}<BR>=
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B or failure to meet other condit=
ions imposed by this section of this document MAY<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nb=
sp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rule=
s as other IETF<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B decisions (s=
ee [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B &=
gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the extension being withdrawn or reassigned b=
y the IESG.</EM><BR>
<EM></EM>&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I still don't like the passive "may be appealed to . . . "<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
I'm thinking that in this case "petition" is the&nbsp=3Bword=3B someone pet=
itions the IESG when someone fails to do this=3B I'm not sure why it's call=
ed an appeal=3B thus:<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
<EM>&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B If the registering authorit=
y fails to maintain the rfc described above=2C </EM><BR>
<EM>{COMMENT: and what about the record-jar format registry listing all sin=
gle-character subtags allocated that is maintained by IANA=2C right???}<BR>=
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B or fails to meet other conditio=
ns imposed by this section of this document=2C a petition&nbsp=3BMAY<BR>&gt=
=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B be made&nbsp=3Bto the IESG [RFC202=
8] under the same rules as other IETF<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=
=3B&nbsp=3B decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to ma=
intain<BR>&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B&nbsp=3B the extension being w=
ithdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.</EM><BR>
<EM></EM>&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B(however I probably am not that informed=3B appeal may be the term =
you need if it's what the IESG calls this petition) . . .<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
Best=2C<BR>
&nbsp=3B<BR>
C. E. Whitehead<BR>
<A href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</A> <BR>
<BR><BR><BR><I>
<H1></I><EM></EM>&nbsp=3B</H1><EM></EM>
From: "Randy Presuhn" &lt=3B<A href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@DOMAIN.HIDDEN">=
randy_presuhn at mindspring.com</A>&gt=3B <BR>
Date: Sun=2C 24 May 2009 15:33:50 -0700 <BR><PRE><EM>Hi -

&gt=3B&gt=3B From: "Alexey Melnikov" &lt=3Balexey.melnikov at isode.com&gt=
=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B To: "LTRU Working Group" &lt=3Bltru at ietf.org&gt=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" &lt=3Bduerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp&gt=3B=
=3B "Randy Presuhn" &lt=3Brandy_presuhn at mindspring.com&gt=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B Sent: Sunday=2C May 24=2C 2009 5:23 AM
&gt=3B&gt=3B Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Revi=
ew Team review
...
&gt=3B&gt=3B 7). In Section 3.7:
&gt=3B&gt=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    Failure to maintain this record=2C maintain the corr=
esponding registry=2C
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    or meet other conditions imposed by this section of =
this document MAY
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rul=
es as other IETF
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the auth=
ority to maintain
&gt=3B&gt=3B &gt=3B    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the I=
ESG.
&gt=3B&gt=3B
&gt=3B&gt=3B It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to=
 apply to
&gt=3B&gt=3B IANA=2C then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA a=
s specified
&gt=3B&gt=3B in RFC 2860.
&gt=3B ...

&gt=3B As a technical contributor:

&gt=3B This text pertains to a "maintaining authority" for a registry refer=
enced from
&gt=3B the IANA-maintained "extensions registry".  The "this record" refers=
 to
&gt=3B information maintained by that outside "maintaining authority" in th=
e
&gt=3B previous paragraph.

I think the comment could potentially be germane in the hypothetical case
where one of these "maintaining authorities" somehow ended up being
IANA itself.

Randy
</EM></PRE></body>
</html>=

--_14bb5d8c-9dab-4b26-b804-4aeeb7e6548e_--

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Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:39:56 +0100
From: Marion Gunn <mgunn@egt.ie>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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That is simply a question a question of fixing bad and/or unclear 
English. The straight way to fix this is to refer in the first instance 
to the Standard by its ISO number AND title (without the clumsy use of 
parenthesis) and in the second instance (a line or two further down) by 
its number only (the reference being to its RA). BTW, I'd expect 
Registration Authority to be in title case, but that is less important 
than fixing bad English style.

Hope this helps,
mg

-- 

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *



Scríobh Kent Karlsson:

>
> Den 2009-05-27 02.25, skrev "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>:
>
>   
>> Hi -
>>
>>     
>>> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
>>> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group"
>>> <ltru@ietf.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:39 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
>>>       
>> ...
>>     
>>> I would suggest, in place of Randy's proposal, the following replacement
>>> text:
>>>
>>> --
>>>        Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
>>>        to [ISO15924] ("Codes for the representation of the names of
>>>        scripts: alpha-4 script codes"), or subsequently assigned by the
>>>        ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
>>>        bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used in
>>> conjunction
>>>        with this language.
>>> --
>>>       
>> As a technical contributor...
>>
>> (1) I don't find the parenthetic material helpful.
>>     
>
> If the title is kept here (in parentheses), the title should be the
> actual title of that standard:
>
> Information and documentation -- Codes for the representation of names of
> scripts
>
> See 
> http://www.iso.org/iso/search.htm?qt=15924&searchSubmit=Search&sort=rel&type
> =simple&published=on.
>
> The references section has it right.
>
>     /kent k
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>   



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  <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
That is simply a question a question of fixing bad and/or unclear
English. The straight way to fix this is to refer in the first instance
to the Standard by its ISO number AND title (without the clumsy use of
parenthesis) and in the second instance (a line or two further down) by
its number only (the reference being to its RA). BTW, I'd expect
Registration Authority to be in title case, but that is less important
than fixing bad English style.<br>
<br>
Hope this helps,<br>
mg<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">-- <br>
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<div class="Section1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"
 lang="EN-GB">Marion
Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"
 lang="EN-GB">27
P&aacute;irc an Fh&eacute;ithlinn, Baile an<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"
 lang="EN-GB">Bh&oacute;thair,
An Charraig Dhubh,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"
 lang="EN-GB">Co.
&Aacute;tha Cliath, &Eacute;ire/Ireland<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: blue;"
 lang="EN-GB">*
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:mgunn@egt.ie">mgunn@egt.ie</a> * <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eamonn@egt.ie">eamonn@egt.ie</a> *<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Scr&iacute;obh Kent Karlsson:
</p>
<blockquote cite="mid:C642C237.CE85%25kent.karlsson14@comhem.se"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">

Den 2009-05-27 02.25, skrev "Randy Presuhn" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">&lt;randy_presuhn@mindspring.com&gt;</a>:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Hi -

    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">From: "Phillips, Addison" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:addison@amazon.com">&lt;addison@amazon.com&gt;</a>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">&lt;randy_presuhn@mindspring.com&gt;</a>; "LTRU Working Group"
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ltru@ietf.org">&lt;ltru@ietf.org&gt;</a>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:39 PM
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">...
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">I would suggest, in place of Randy's proposal, the following replacement
text:

--
       Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
       to [ISO15924] ("Codes for the representation of the names of
       scripts: alpha-4 script codes"), or subsequently assigned by the
       ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
       bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used in
conjunction
       with this language.
--
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">As a technical contributor...

(1) I don't find the parenthetic material helpful.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
If the title is kept here (in parentheses), the title should be the
actual title of that standard:

Information and documentation -- Codes for the representation of names of
scripts

See 
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.iso.org/iso/search.htm?qt=15924&searchSubmit=Search&sort=rel&type">http://www.iso.org/iso/search.htm?qt=15924&amp;searchSubmit=Search&amp;sort=rel&amp;type</a>
=simple&amp;published=on.

The references section has it right.

    /kent k


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a>

  </pre>
</blockquote>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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:sighs: as well, with co-author hat on.

I really think we are polishing far to much at this point. The document is
long and involved, and we can certainly find lots of instances where wordin=
g
could be improved; and could probably keep doing so for months and months o=
n
end.

What we should focus on now are just cases where the wording is sufficientl=
y
bad as to cause a real problem.

Mark


On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 07:05, Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote=
:

> :: sighs ::
>
> (as individual contributor)
>
> It is useful to look at Section 2.2 when deciding what to do here. Please
> note that the comment is really about the run-on construction of the
> sentence, not the inclusion or omission of the title. I agree that we sho=
uld
> fix the sentence's construction.
>
> In proposing replacement text, I put on my editor hat and observed that
> each of the other subtag sections uses a similar formulation for the text=
. I
> say "similar" because actually the format varies somewhat. However, in al=
l
> cases, the title is given for the ISO standard. Thus my proposal includes
> one, as it would be surprising to omit just the one title.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:52 AM
> > To: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
> >
> > Since Martin asked for additional feedback:
> >
> > The extra inclusion of the title of the ISO standard after its
> > reference
> > (here and elsewhere) seems pointless to me; I don't tend to see
> > that
> > sort of redundancy when referring to other RFCs.  But I don't think
> > this
> > is worth delaying the drafts for another few weeks or months, so I
> > am OK
> > with any decision either to remove this text or leave it in.
> >
> > --
> > Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> > http://www.ewellic.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  =CB=86
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

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:sighs: as well, with co-author hat on.<br><br>I really think we are polish=
ing far to much at this point. The document is long and involved, and we ca=
n certainly find lots of instances where wording could be improved; and cou=
ld probably keep doing so for months and months on end.<br>
<br>What we should focus on now are just cases where the wording is suffici=
ently bad as to cause a real problem.<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 07:05, Phillips,=
 Addison <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addiso=
n@amazon.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;=
 padding-left: 1ex;">
:: sighs ::<br>
<br>
(as individual contributor)<br>
<br>
It is useful to look at Section 2.2 when deciding what to do here. Please n=
ote that the comment is really about the run-on construction of the sentenc=
e, not the inclusion or omission of the title. I agree that we should fix t=
he sentence&#39;s construction.<br>

<br>
In proposing replacement text, I put on my editor hat and observed that eac=
h of the other subtag sections uses a similar formulation for the text. I s=
ay &quot;similar&quot; because actually the format varies somewhat. However=
, in all cases, the title is given for the ISO standard. Thus my proposal i=
ncludes one, as it would be surprising to omit just the one title.<br>

<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Addison<br>
</font><div class=3D"im"><br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] On<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; Behalf Of Doug Ewell<br>
&gt; Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:52 AM<br>
&gt; To: LTRU Working Group<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: =
Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Since Martin asked for additional feedback:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The extra inclusion of the title of the ISO standard after its<br>
&gt; reference<br>
&gt; (here and elsewhere) seems pointless to me; I don&#39;t tend to see<br=
>
&gt; that<br>
&gt; sort of redundancy when referring to other RFCs. =C2=A0But I don&#39;t=
 think<br>
&gt; this<br>
&gt; is worth delaying the drafts for another few weeks or months, so I<br>
&gt; am OK<br>
&gt; with any decision either to remove this text or leave it in.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Doug Ewell =C2=A0* =C2=A0Thornton, Colorado, USA =C2=A0* =C2=A0RFC 464=
5 =C2=A0* =C2=A0UTN #14<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ewellic.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ewelli=
c.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages</=
a> =C2=A0=CB=86<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Ltru mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Wed May 27 11:22:02 2009
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Hi -

As someone who's been doing IETF stuff for a long long time,
rather than as co-chair or as a technical contributor...

At this stage of the process, the fastest way to resolve
review comments is to look carefully at the proposed resolution.
If it's something you could live with, just say "ok" and
make no further comment.  If the reviewer doesn't make
a specific proposal, propose minimal-change text that
*directly* addresses the thrust of the comment.

The next-quickest path is to say "no, we already considered
this alternative and rejected it."

Word-smithing the proposal will slow things down, and should
only be done if there's significant problems with the
proposal (ambiguities or lack of clarity).

If you want to bring things to a grinding halt, drag
in peripheral issues not directly raised by the review
comment.

Ironically, total silence also slows things down.

Don't forget that after we're finished with it, the RFC
editor gets a chance to fix English usage, punctuation,
etc.

Randy


From petercon@microsoft.com  Wed May 27 16:31:22 2009
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:32:30 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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From petercon@microsoft.com  Wed May 27 16:40:45 2009
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>, "ltru@ietf.org" <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:42:20 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintainers of additional registries (Apps #7)
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--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B064B907CNAEXMSGC117re_
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It is sufficiently clear that the antecedents are found in the preceding pa=
ragraph and that this text is directed toward "The maintaining authority of=
 the extension". The wording "appeal" vs. "petition" may have room for impr=
ovement but is certainly good enough.

IMO, no text in this section needs to be changed. This is purely editorial,=
 and IMO the issue should be resolved by the editors at their discretion.


Peter

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of CE =
Whitehead
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:37 AM
To: ltru@ietf.org
Cc: alexey.melnikov@isode.com
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintainers of a=
dditional registries (Apps #7)

Hi,

I agree that it is not clear to whom the text in 3.7 (paragraph 5) refers; =
it gave me a few problems on the first few reads (because it is IANA who is=
 maintaining the registry of allocated single-character subtags that is men=
tioned right above this paragraph while the maintaining authority who reque=
sts registration of a single-character subtag develops/maintains an rfc/spe=
cification stating what is canonical, etc., but I realized from previous te=
xt that it must be the maintaining authority!

Nevertheless, a revision stating this explicitly would be nice:

>> >    Failure on the part of the registering authority to maintain the rf=
c described above,
{COMMENT: and what about the record-jar format registry listing all single-=
character subtags allocated that is maintained by IANA, right???}
>> >    or failure to meet other conditions imposed by this section of this=
 document MAY
>> >    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IET=
F
>> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to mainta=
in
>> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.


I still don't like the passive "may be appealed to . . . "

I'm thinking that in this case "petition" is the word; someone petitions th=
e IESG when someone fails to do this; I'm not sure why it's called an appea=
l; thus:

>> >    If the registering authority fails to maintain the rfc described ab=
ove,
{COMMENT: and what about the record-jar format registry listing all single-=
character subtags allocated that is maintained by IANA, right???}
>> >    or fails to meet other conditions imposed by this section of this d=
ocument, a petition MAY
>> >    be made to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF
>> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to mainta=
in
>> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.


 (however I probably am not that informed; appeal may be the term you need =
if it's what the IESG calls this petition) . . .



Best,

C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com<mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com>



From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn at mindspring.com<mailto:randy_presuhn=
@DOMAIN.HIDDEN>>
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:33:50 -0700

Hi -



>> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov at isode.com>

>> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru at ietf.org>

>> Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" <duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <ra=
ndy_presuhn at mindspring.com>

>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM

>> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team re=
view

...

>> 7). In Section 3.7:

>>

>> >    Failure to maintain this record, maintain the corresponding registr=
y,

>> >    or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document M=
AY

>> >    be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IET=
F

>> >    decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to mainta=
in

>> >    the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.

>>

>> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply to

>> IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as specified

>> in RFC 2860.

> ...



> As a technical contributor:



> This text pertains to a "maintaining authority" for a registry referenced=
 from

> the IANA-maintained "extensions registry".  The "this record" refers to

> information maintained by that outside "maintaining authority" in the

> previous paragraph.



I think the comment could potentially be germane in the hypothetical case

where one of these "maintaining authorities" somehow ended up being

IANA itself.



Randy

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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It is sufficiently clear that the antecedents are found in t=
he
preceding paragraph and that this text is directed toward &#8220;The
maintaining authority of the extension&#8221;. The wording &#8220;appeal&#8=
221;
vs. &#8220;petition&#8221; may have room for improvement but is certainly g=
ood
enough.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>IMO, no text in this section needs to be changed. This is pu=
rely
editorial, and IMO the issue should be resolved by the editors at their dis=
cretion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>CE
Whitehead<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> ltru@ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> alexey.melnikov@isode.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintaine=
rs
of additional registries (Apps #7)<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Hi,<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I agree that it is not clear to whom the text in 3.7 (paragraph 5)&nbsp;ref=
ers;
it gave me a few problems on the first few reads (because it is IANA who is
maintaining the registry of allocated single-character subtags that is
mentioned right above this paragraph&nbsp;while the maintaining authority w=
ho
requests registration of a single-character subtag develops/maintains an
rfc/specification stating what is canonical, etc., but I realized from prev=
ious
text that it must be the maintaining authority!<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Nevertheless, a revision stating this explicitly would be nice:<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Failure on the part of the registering authority&nbs=
p;to
maintain the rfc described above,</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>{COMMENT: and what a=
bout
the record-jar format registry listing all single-character subtags allocat=
ed that
is maintained by IANA, right???}</span></em><i><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or failure to meet other conditions imposed by this
section of this document MAY</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rul=
es
as other IETF</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the
authority to maintain</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the I=
ESG.</span></em></i><br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I still don't like the passive &quot;may be appealed to . . . &quot;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
I'm thinking that in this case &quot;petition&quot; is the&nbsp;word; someo=
ne
petitions the IESG when someone fails to do this; I'm not sure why it's cal=
led
an appeal; thus:<br>
&nbsp;<br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; If the registering authority fails to maintain the r=
fc
described above, </span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>{COMMENT: and what a=
bout
the record-jar format registry listing all single-character subtags allocat=
ed
that is maintained by IANA, right???}</span></em><i><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; or fails to meet other conditions imposed by this
section of this document, a petition&nbsp;MAY</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; be made&nbsp;to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same ru=
les
as other IETF</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the auth=
ority
to maintain</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&gt;&gt;
&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the I=
ESG.</span></em></i><br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;(however I probably am not that informed; appeal may be the term you =
need
if it's what the IESG calls this petition) . . .<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
&nbsp;<br>
Best,<br>
&nbsp;<br>
C. E. Whitehead<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a> <br>
<br>
<br>
<i><o:p></o:p></i></span></p>

<h1><span style=3D'font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></h1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",=
"sans-serif"'>From:
&quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@DOMAIN.HIDDEN=
">randy_presuhn
at mindspring.com</a>&gt; <br>
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:33:50 -0700 <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<pre><em><span style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Hi -<o:p></o:p></span></=
em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></pre><pre=
><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; From: &quot;Alexey Melnikov&qu=
ot; &lt;alexey.melnikov at isode.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><=
em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; To: &quot;LTRU Working Group&q=
uot; &lt;ltru at ietf.org&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; Cc: &quot;Martin J. D=FCrst&qu=
ot; &lt;duerst at it.aoyama.ac.jp&gt;; &quot;Randy Presuhn&quot; &lt;randy_=
presuhn at mindspring.com&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:2=
3 AM<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; Subject: Additional issues wit=
h 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre>=
<pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>...<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><e=
m><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; 7). In Section 3.7:<o:p></o:p>=
</span></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></=
pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; &gt;=A0=A0=A0 Failure to maint=
ain this record, maintain the corresponding registry,<o:p></o:p></span></em=
></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; &gt;=A0=A0=A0 or meet other co=
nditions imposed by this section of this document MAY<o:p></o:p></span></em=
></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; &gt;=A0=A0=A0 be appealed to t=
he IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF<o:p></o:p></span></em>=
</pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; &gt;=A0=A0=A0 decisions (see [=
RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain<o:p></o:p></span></em=
></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; &gt;=A0=A0=A0 the extension be=
ing withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><=
em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></=
pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; It is not clear to whom this p=
rocedure applies. If it meant to apply to<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre>=
<em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; IANA, then it seems to contrad=
ict IETF agreement with IANA as specified<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre>=
<em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;&gt; in RFC 2860.<o:p></o:p></span>=
</em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt; ...<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><p=
re><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></pre><pre=
><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt; As a technical contributor:<o:p></=
o:p></span></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></pre><pre=
><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt; This text pertains to a &quot;main=
taining authority&quot; for a registry referenced from<o:p></o:p></span></e=
m></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt; the IANA-maintained &quot;extensio=
ns registry&quot;.=A0 The &quot;this record&quot; refers to<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt; information maintained by that out=
side &quot;maintaining authority&quot; in the<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><=
pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt; previous paragraph.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></em></pre><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></pre><pre=
><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>I think the comment could potentially b=
e germane in the hypothetical case<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><em><sp=
an
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>where one of these &quot;maintaining au=
thorities&quot; somehow ended up being<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre><pre><em=
><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>IANA itself.<o:p></o:p></span></em></pr=
e><pre><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></em></pre><pre=
><em><span
style=3D'font-family:"Courier New"'>Randy<o:p></o:p></span></em></pre></div=
>

</body>

</html>

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B064B907CNAEXMSGC117re_--

From petercon@microsoft.com  Wed May 27 16:42:23 2009
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:44:04 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...
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In the interest of moving faster, we should choose *not* to discuss purely =
editorial issues and leave them to the editors to resolve at their discreti=
on.


Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:27 AM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...

Hi -

As someone who's been doing IETF stuff for a long long time,
rather than as co-chair or as a technical contributor...

At this stage of the process, the fastest way to resolve
review comments is to look carefully at the proposed resolution.
If it's something you could live with, just say "ok" and
make no further comment.  If the reviewer doesn't make
a specific proposal, propose minimal-change text that
*directly* addresses the thrust of the comment.

The next-quickest path is to say "no, we already considered
this alternative and rejected it."

Word-smithing the proposal will slow things down, and should
only be done if there's significant problems with the
proposal (ambiguities or lack of clarity).

If you want to bring things to a grinding halt, drag
in peripheral issues not directly raised by the review
comment.

Ironically, total silence also slows things down.

Don't forget that after we're finished with it, the RFC
editor gets a chance to fix English usage, punctuation,
etc.

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:55:32 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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From petercon@microsoft.com  Wed May 27 16:57:47 2009
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:59:27 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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My input: let's get rid of it=20

Let's also not spend time discussing historical side topics of no consequen=
ce when there's agreement to delete it.



Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:19 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)

Hi -

> From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" =
<ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:41 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
>
> > As a technical contributor...
> >=20
> > Whole-heartedly agree.  The reference should be deleted.
> >=20
> > Randy
>=20
> I agree, although I note it is something that we (in this or
> previous incarnations as a WG) have never modified: we inherited it from =
RFC 3066.

Both as co-chair and as contributor..

There *have* been previous requests to get rid of it.
I find "we inherited it" rather unconvincing for a bit of
text that adds no value whatsoever to the document.

Randy


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:01:41 -0700
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+1

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:45 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Cc: Alexey Melnikov
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1)

Hi -

As a technical contributor...

> 1). In Section 3.5:
>
> >    The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be joined by sending
> >    a request to <ietf-languages-request@iana.org>.  The list can be
> >    hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request of IESG.
>
> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA
> managing the registry.

What interaction would be needed?  ietf-languages@iana.org has
been operated by a thrid party for many years without issue.

> The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system or have to
> be routed through IANA systems.

This is simply not true.

> If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing
> list to a third party, then perhaps
> the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain, e.g.
> ietf-languages@languages.iana.org.

Why?

> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.

I disagree.  The text in question describes an arrangement that
has worked well for a long time.

Randy

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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Hi -

> From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:44 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...
>
> In the interest of moving faster, we should choose *not* to discuss
> purely editorial issues and leave them to the editors to resolve at their discretion.

That's fine during earlier stages, but that approach generally
doesn't fly at this stage of the process in groups with a history
like ours.

We really need to keep the AD and (in this case) the
apps area reviewer in the loop and address the feedback
we've received from them.  Carte blanche to the editors
is not something I'm willing to consider, given the the history
of the text and this WG.   No one should be surprised by
the text that shows up in the RFCs.

Randy


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From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn

> In the interest of moving faster, we should choose *not* to discuss
> purely editorial issues and leave them to the editors to resolve at their=
 discretion.

> That's fine during earlier stages, but that approach generally
> doesn't fly at this stage of the process in groups with a history
> like ours.

It is precisely because of the stage that we're at that we should simply le=
t *editorial* changes be handled by the editors and not as issues that requ=
ire consensus decisions from a committee of editors.


> We really need to keep the AD and (in this case) the
> apps area reviewer in the loop and address the feedback
> we've received from them.

Fair enough. Reporting on the resolution is one thing. Using a committee co=
nsensus process to resolve the disposition of those issues is quite another=
.


> Carte blanche to the editors
> is not something I'm willing to consider

I didn't mean to suggest that. Let the editors _be_ editors, make editorial=
 changes and then they can report to us what changes they make. If they ste=
p over the bounds of editorial content, we'll surely catch them.

We just do not have to bog every single decision down in a committee, conse=
nsus decision. Some issues just aren't worth it. It is far more important t=
o bring this project to closure.



Peter

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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 17:57:55 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2)
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To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:03:53 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Wed May 27 19:56:47 2009
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From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...
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Hi Peter -

As co-chair...

If you object to the way the co-chairs have chosen to conduct the
process, you are free to appeal our decisions to the responsible AD.

Randy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...


From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn

> In the interest of moving faster, we should choose *not* to discuss
> purely editorial issues and leave them to the editors to resolve at their discretion.

> That's fine during earlier stages, but that approach generally
> doesn't fly at this stage of the process in groups with a history
> like ours.

It is precisely because of the stage that we're at that we should simply let *editorial* changes be handled by the editors and not
as issues that require consensus decisions from a committee of editors.


> We really need to keep the AD and (in this case) the
> apps area reviewer in the loop and address the feedback
> we've received from them.

Fair enough. Reporting on the resolution is one thing. Using a committee consensus process to resolve the disposition of those
issues is quite another.


> Carte blanche to the editors
> is not something I'm willing to consider

I didn't mean to suggest that. Let the editors _be_ editors, make editorial changes and then they can report to us what changes they
make. If they step over the bounds of editorial content, we'll surely catch them.

We just do not have to bog every single decision down in a committee, consensus decision. Some issues just aren't worth it. It is
far more important to bring this project to closure.



Peter



From petercon@microsoft.com  Wed May 27 21:22:32 2009
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 21:24:11 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...
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I am not objecting to how the co-chairs are conducting the process. You ask=
ed that we move faster, and commented on the best way to do that at this po=
int. I simply took what you suggested a step further.=20

I will suggest that, IMO, the co-chairs could be a bit more directive if po=
intless discussions start up, particularly when there is nothing technical =
at stake. That's not an objection but a suggestion to get us to closure mor=
e quickly. If people start discussing whether a certain bit of inconsequent=
ial text was inherited from an earlier version or whether passive voice is =
the most appropriate way to express something, step in and politely suggest=
 that that those considerations will not have any practical positive impact=
 on use of this spec but that each additional day we delay completion has r=
eal, negative impact.=20

There are eight active items in the issue tracker, one of which has been op=
en for over six weeks. Is there anything standing in the way from having al=
l of these closed within the next five days?


Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:01 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...

Hi Peter -

As co-chair...

If you object to the way the co-chairs have chosen to conduct the
process, you are free to appeal our decisions to the responsible AD.

Randy

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <l=
tru@ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 5:49 PM
Subject: RE: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...


From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn

> In the interest of moving faster, we should choose *not* to discuss
> purely editorial issues and leave them to the editors to resolve at their=
 discretion.

> That's fine during earlier stages, but that approach generally
> doesn't fly at this stage of the process in groups with a history
> like ours.

It is precisely because of the stage that we're at that we should simply le=
t *editorial* changes be handled by the editors and not
as issues that require consensus decisions from a committee of editors.


> We really need to keep the AD and (in this case) the
> apps area reviewer in the loop and address the feedback
> we've received from them.

Fair enough. Reporting on the resolution is one thing. Using a committee co=
nsensus process to resolve the disposition of those
issues is quite another.


> Carte blanche to the editors
> is not something I'm willing to consider

I didn't mean to suggest that. Let the editors _be_ editors, make editorial=
 changes and then they can report to us what changes they
make. If they step over the bounds of editorial content, we'll surely catch=
 them.

We just do not have to bog every single decision down in a committee, conse=
nsus decision. Some issues just aren't worth it. It is
far more important to bring this project to closure.



Peter


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com  Wed May 27 21:56:48 2009
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Hi -

> From: "Peter Constable" <petercon@microsoft.com>
> To: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:24 PM
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...
...
> There are eight active items in the issue tracker, one of which has
> been open for over six weeks. Is there anything standing in the way
> from having all of these closed within the next five days?
...

As a technical contributor I've already commented on all of the issues.
In many cases I've made specific proposals for resolving/rejecting
the comments or indicated that I could live with the proposal supplied
by the reviewer.  So I've done my part as a technical contributor.

If we could simply have declared consensus on those proposals,
we'd already be done.  But that obviously was not to be.

I'll be off-line (attending a meeting I'm actually interested in) until late
Sunday, so do not expect any further contributions from me during this
time.  Martin will be making the consensus calls and wrapping things
up as document shepherd, as he's already indicated, when and how
he sees fit.

Randy


From bortzmeyer@nic.fr  Thu May 28 06:17:10 2009
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Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:18:44 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer@nic.fr>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: [Ltru] Can a WG member update <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/> ?	(Was: Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2)
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On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 02:14:30PM -0700,
 Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote 
 a message of 34 lines which said:

> I've entered this into the tracker as issue #49.
> 
> Please include this issue number in your subject line in any postings
> on this topic, and PLEASE do not post on multiple issues in one message.

By the way, is it possible for an ordinary WG member to update
<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/>? I thought so and I tried to add
URLs to the previous discussions about #49 (such as
<http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg11980.html>)
but, after a long time, I get a blank page and no error message and
the ticket is not updated.

From bortzmeyer@nic.fr  Thu May 28 06:25:09 2009
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 06:03:53PM -0700,
 Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> wrote 
 a message of 58 lines which said:

> - XML was considered and there was no consensus to change.

In the interest of archive fans, the discussion was in
<http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg09734.html>

It seems that the last set of "issues" were raised by someone who did
not take the time to check the archives...


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From petercon@microsoft.com  Thu May 28 14:39:24 2009
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From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 14:41:05 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] In the interest of moving faster...
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From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran=
dy Presuhn

> Martin will be making the consensus calls and wrapping things
> up as document shepherd, as he's already indicated, when and how
> he sees fit.

Then, Martin, I will encourage you to wrap things up quickly.



Peter


From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Fri May 29 01:58:38 2009
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From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can a WG member update <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/> ?	(Was: Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2)
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I guess Randy should be able to answer this question, but he's away.
I haven't been able to get a grip on this tracker myself, so for me, the 
question is more "can anybody except Randy handle this" rather than "can 
ordinary WG members update issues". But that may simply be a bilateral 
problem between me and this tracker.

Regards,    Martin.

On 2009/05/28 22:18, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Sun, May 24, 2009 at 02:14:30PM -0700,
>   Randy Presuhn<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>  wrote
>   a message of 34 lines which said:
>
>> I've entered this into the tracker as issue #49.
>>
>> Please include this issue number in your subject line in any postings
>> on this topic, and PLEASE do not post on multiple issues in one message.
>
> By the way, is it possible for an ordinary WG member to update
> <http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/>? I thought so and I tried to add
> URLs to the previous discussions about #49 (such as
> <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg11980.html>)
> but, after a long time, I get a blank page and no error message and
> the ticket is not updated.
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp  Fri May 29 02:21:16 2009
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Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1)
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[co-chair hat on]

I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in 
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, as the current arrangements for mailing lists 
including a third party are working well.

Regards,   Martin.

P.S.: Randy, as before, can you please close the issues in the tracker 
when you get back from your trip? Thanks a lot.

On 2009/05/28 9:01, Peter Constable wrote:
> +1
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:45 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Alexey Melnikov
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1)
>
> Hi -
>
> As a technical contributor...
>
>> 1). In Section 3.5:
>>
>>>     The ietf-languages list is an open list and can be joined by sending
>>>     a request to<ietf-languages-request@iana.org>.  The list can be
>>>     hosted by IANA or by any third party at the request of IESG.
>> It is not clear how the "third party" option would interact with IANA
>> managing the registry.
>
> What interaction would be needed?  ietf-languages@iana.org has
> been operated by a thrid party for many years without issue.
>
>> The lists either have to be managed by IANA on an IANA system or have to
>> be routed through IANA systems.
>
> This is simply not true.
>
>> If there is a desire to be able to delegate handling of this mailing
>> list to a third party, then perhaps
>> the mailing list should be in a separate subdomain, e.g.
>> ietf-languages@languages.iana.org.
>
> Why?
>
>> I think this needs to be discussed further with IANA.
>
> I disagree.  The text in question describes an arrangement that
> has worked well for a long time.
>
> Randy
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2)
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[co-chair hat on]

I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in 
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis for this issue, as argued for by various 
contributors in this thread.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/28 9:57, Peter Constable wrote:
> I agree with Doug's points and do not see that a reference to 5198 would add specific benefits.
>
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:25 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2)
>
> Randy Presuhn<randy underscore presuhn at mindspring dot com>  wrote:
>
>> RFC 5198 imposes additional constraints.  These may be harmless, but
>> I'm reluctant to endorse technical change this late in the process.
>> Perhaps those who contributed to the development of RFC 5198 would
>> care to comment?
>
> RFC 5198 actually allows certain things which we do not allow in the
> Registry--NFC is only a SHOULD in 5198 but a MUST in draft-4646bis, and
> 5198 allows the bizarre CR NUL sequence which is forbidden in the
> Registry.  So referencing 5198 would still require us to list the
> additional constraints *we* impose.
>
> Section 3.1.1 of the draft already has plenty of external references.
> The only reason to add a reference to 5198 would be to further increase
> the number of cross-references between RFCs, or to effect a technical
> change for some unspecified reason.  I oppose this change.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> (listed in Acknowledgments section of 5198)
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3)
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[co-chair hat on]

I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in 
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis for this issue. The WG has discussed this issue 
already, and a wide variety of reasons has been given for why a change 
to an XML-based format at this point would be a bad idea.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/28 22:21, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
> On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 06:03:53PM -0700,
>   Peter Constable<petercon@microsoft.com>  wrote
>   a message of 58 lines which said:
>
>> - XML was considered and there was no consensus to change.
>
> In the interest of archive fans, the discussion was in
> <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg09734.html>
>
> It seems that the last set of "issues" were raised by someone who did
> not take the time to check the archives...
>
> _______________________________________________
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-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
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[co-chair hat on]

I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in 
draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis for this issue. The MAY appropriately reflects 
the fact that this registration is possible (as long as the conditions 
continue to hold), but it is not made currently because nobody currently 
sees a need for it.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/28 8:55, Peter Constable wrote:
> I am also OK with whatever decision the editors wish to make.
>
>
> If it may be of help to them, I offer some comments, but I do NOT wish to see these discussed further -- the editors can do whatever they wish with these comments, including ignoring them.
>
>
> The problem with this text is that the overall paragraph is poorly worded. "For historical reasons... [X] MAY [be done]." (Why would it be done for historical reasons?) I'd reword as follows.
>
> <suggested text>
> For historical reasons, the UN numeric code 830 (Channel Islands) was not registered at the time this document was adopted and, at that time, had no corresponding ISO 3166-1 code. If in the future a registration request is submitted for numeric code 830 via the process described in Section 3.5, it MAY be entered into the IANA registry provided no ISO 3166-1 code with that exact meaning has been previously registered.
> </suggested text>
>
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 6:50 AM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4)
>
> Since Martin asked for additional feedback:
>
> I am OK with whatever decision is made here.  I accept that my
> understanding of RFC 2119 "MAY" MAY be flawed and incomplete.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
> http://www.ewellic.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
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[co-chair hat on]

I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to remove the reference to 
RFC 2860. Editors, please remove this reference from the draft, and 
treat IANA as a well-known abbreviation.

Regards,   Martin.

On 2009/05/28 8:59, Peter Constable wrote:
> My input: let's get rid of it
>
> Let's also not spend time discussing historical side topics of no consequence when there's agreement to delete it.
>
>
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 5:19 PM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
>
> Hi -
>
>> From: "Phillips, Addison"<addison@amazon.com>
>> To: "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>; "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 4:41 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5)
>>
>>> As a technical contributor...
>>>
>>> Whole-heartedly agree.  The reference should be deleted.
>>>
>>> Randy
>> I agree, although I note it is something that we (in this or
>> previous incarnations as a WG) have never modified: we inherited it from RFC 3066.
>
> Both as co-chair and as contributor..
>
> There *have* been previous requests to get rid of it.
> I find "we inherited it" rather unconvincing for a bit of
> text that adds no value whatsoever to the document.
>
> Randy
>
>
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#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintainers of additional registries (Apps #7)
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On 2009/05/25 7:33, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: "Alexey Melnikov"<alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
>> To: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
> ...
>> 7). In Section 3.7:
>>
>>>     Failure to maintain this record, maintain the corresponding registry,
>>>     or meet other conditions imposed by this section of this document MAY
>>>     be appealed to the IESG [RFC2028] under the same rules as other IETF
>>>     decisions (see [RFC2026]) and MAY result in the authority to maintain
>>>     the extension being withdrawn or reassigned by the IESG.
>> It is not clear to whom this procedure applies. If it meant to apply to
>> IANA, then it seems to contradict IETF agreement with IANA as specified
>> in RFC 2860.
> ...
>
> As a technical contributor:
>
> This text pertains to a "maintaining authority" for a registry referenced from
> the IANA-maintained "extensions registry".  The "this record" refers to
> information maintained by that outside "maintaining authority" in the
> previous paragraph.

[as a technical contributor]

I concur with Randy and others that it is clear enough that this is an 
outside maintaining agency.

> I think the comment could potentially be germane in the hypothetical case
> where one of these "maintaining authorities" somehow ended up being
> IANA itself.

Very, very potentially, yes. But even then, if IANA weren't able to keep 
a record of it's own address, or otherwise keep a registry, the IETF 
would potentially have much bigger problems than a language tag 
extension. (there are quite a few registries that are in a bit of a 
mess, but when that's the case, it's a problem on the IETF side, not on 
the IANA side).
In the highly unlikely case that an appeal against IANA would reach the 
IESG, I expect the IESG to be clever enough to work out how to apply (or 
NOT) the relevant provisions to IANA, and if that doesn't help, I expect 
Subsection 4.2 of RFC 2860 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2860#page-3) 
to kick in and solve the problem.



[co-chair hat on]

I conclude that there is consensus in the WG that no fix to this text is 
necessary.

Regards,   Martin.


-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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[co-chair hat on] This one was a bit more complicated :-(.

I think we have consensus for the following version of point 2 of 
Section 2.2.3.

   2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
       to [ISO15924] ("Information and documentation -- Codes for the
       representation of names of scripts"), or subsequently assigned by
       the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
       bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used
       in conjunction with this language. Only codes assigned by ISO
       15924 will be considered for registration.

This is mostly Addison's version, with the last sentence of the 
paragraph added back in, and with the title fixed as pointed out by Kent.

I hope this should address the concern of the commenter, and will be 
acceptable to everybody on the WG.

Regards,    Martin.


On 2009/05/25 7:23, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: "Alexey Melnikov"<alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
>> To: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review
> ...
>> 6). In Section 2.2.3:
>>
>>>     2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
>>>         to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of
>>>         scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the
>>>         ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
>>>         bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjunction
>>>         with this language.  Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be
>>>         considered for registration.
>> The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it has misplaced
>> punctuation.
> ...
>
> As a technical contributor:  Yes.
>
> First: either
> s/": alpha-4 script codes,/: alpha-4 script codes,"/
> or, better still,
> s/]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts": alpha-4 script codes//
>
> Secondly,
> s/bodies, denoting the/ bodies.  A script subtag denotes a/
>
> Propose replacement text, with additional edits, would be:
>     2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and are defined according
>          to [ISO15924] or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924
>          registration authority or governing standardization bodies.
>         A script subtag denotes a script or writing system used in
>         conjunction with a language.  Only codes assigned by ISO
>        15924 will be considered for registration.
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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[co-chair hat on]

This is the last comment on issue #45 
(http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/45) that I have found.

Although further suggestions for minor "improvements" have been made, 
nobody has expressed strong disagreement for the current text on this 
issue in draft-22 
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22#section-4.5).

I therefore conclude that the text in draft-22 represents WG consensus 
on this issue.

With this, I think I have declared consensus on all the open issues, and 
these issues all can be closed. Two of them, if I count correctly, 
require editorial action. I would like to ask the editors to prepare an 
updated copy, ready for submission at my instruction.

Regards,    Martin.



On 2009/05/21 0:40, CE Whitehead wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi. Since Mark is still arguing about this draft, I guess it's o.k. to insert my two cents again.
> From: Mark Davis<mark at macchiato.com>
> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 10:45:40 -0700
>> I should quickly add that I'm also ok with leaving the examples where they are in
>> http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22.html, just in the interests of timeliness.
>> Mark
>
> I like Mark's suggested change for 4.5 item 3
> --
> but would like one more change (although there seems to be no reason to push for either change at this point): the one I suggested, the moving of the second sentence, first paragraph:
> {
> "For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also
>         replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-
>
> Phillips&  Davis        Expires November 19, 2009              [Page 67]
>
> Internet-Draft                language-tags                     May 2009
>
>         Value."
>
> }
> to the end of what's currently the first (Addison's text) bullet but is the second bullet in Mark's suggested text:
>
> Also Mark's new bullet at the top is a nice, an example:
>
> {'For example, although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid, it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar).'};
>
> but I'm not sure it needs to be bulleted at all--this text just goes with the introductory sentence, maybe, at the top of item 3, not in a bullet
>
> Thanks.
>
> C. E. Whitehead
> cewcathar@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
> "3.  Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>
> For example, although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid, it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar).
>
> The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'hak' (Hakka).  { For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.}
> Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1."
>
>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 10:43, Mark Davis<mark at macchiato.com>  wrote:
>
> Very good.
>
>   Now that I see the result, I think you are right about moving the examples. I'd suggest the following locations (yellow for those who can see it), and a slight shortening.
>
>
>
> 4.5.  Canonicalization of Language Tags Since a particular language tag can be used by many processes, language tags SHOULD always be created or generated in canonical form.
> A language tag is in 'canonical form' when the tag is well-formed according to the rules in Section 2.1 (Syntax) and Section 2.2 (Language Subtag Sources and Interpretation) and it has been canonicalized by applying each of the following steps in order, using data from the IANA registry (see Section 3.1 (Format of the IANA Language Subtag Registry)):
>
>
>
> Extension sequences are ordered into case-insensitive ASCII order by singleton subtag.
>
>
> For example, the subtag sequence '-a-babble' comes before '-b-warble'.
> For example, the language tag "en-b-ccc-bbb-a-aaa-X-xyz" is well-formed and potentially valid (extensions 'a' and 'b' are not defined as of the publication of this document) but not in a canonical form because the extensions are not in alphabetical order; the canonical form would be "en-a-aaa-b-ccc-bbb-X-xyz".
>
>
> Redundant or grandfathered tags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one.
>
>
> The field-body of the Preferred-Value for grandfathered and redundant tags is an "extended language range" ([RFC4647] (Phillips, A. and M. Davis, “Matching of Language Tags,” September 2006.)) and might consist of more than one subtag.
>
> Preferred-Value fields in the registry provide mappings from deprecated tags to modern equivalents. Many of these were created before the adoption of this document (such as the mapping of "no-nyn" to "nn" or "i-klingon" to "tlh"). Others are the result of later registrations or additions to the registry as permitted or required by this document (for example, "zh-hakka" was deprecated in favor of the ISO 639-3 code 'hak' when this document was adopted).
>
> Subtags are replaced by their Preferred-Value, if there is one. For extlangs, the original primary language subtag is also replaced if there is a primary language subtag in the Preferred-Value.
>
> For example, although the tag "en-BU" (English as used in Burma) is valid, it is not in canonical form because the 'BU' subtag has a canonical mapping to 'MM' (Myanmar).
>
> The field-body of the Preferred-Value for extlangs is an "extended language range" and typically maps to a primary language subtag. For example, the subtag sequence "zh-hak" (Chinese, Hakka) is replaced with the subtag 'hak' (Hakka).
> Most of the non-extlang subtags are either Region subtags where the country name or designation has changed or clerical corrections to ISO 639-1.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

-- 
#-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

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+1

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma=
rtin J. D=FCrst"
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:28 AM
To: Randy Presuhn
Cc: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)

[co-chair hat on] This one was a bit more complicated :-(.

I think we have consensus for the following version of point 2 of=20
Section 2.2.3.

   2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
       to [ISO15924] ("Information and documentation -- Codes for the
       representation of names of scripts"), or subsequently assigned by
       the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
       bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system used
       in conjunction with this language. Only codes assigned by ISO
       15924 will be considered for registration.

This is mostly Addison's version, with the last sentence of the=20
paragraph added back in, and with the title fixed as pointed out by Kent.

I hope this should address the concern of the commenter, and will be=20
acceptable to everybody on the WG.

Regards,    Martin.


On 2009/05/25 7:23, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: "Alexey Melnikov"<alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
>> To: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
>> Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn"<randy_p=
resuhn@mindspring.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team re=
view
> ...
>> 6). In Section 2.2.3:
>>
>>>     2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined accordi=
ng
>>>         to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the names of
>>>         scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently assigned by the
>>>         ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
>>>         bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in conjuncti=
on
>>>         with this language.  Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be
>>>         considered for registration.
>> The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it has misplaced
>> punctuation.
> ...
>
> As a technical contributor:  Yes.
>
> First: either
> s/": alpha-4 script codes,/: alpha-4 script codes,"/
> or, better still,
> s/]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts": alpha-4 scri=
pt codes//
>
> Secondly,
> s/bodies, denoting the/ bodies.  A script subtag denotes a/
>
> Propose replacement text, with additional edits, would be:
>     2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and are defined according
>          to [ISO15924] or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924
>          registration authority or governing standardization bodies.
>         A script subtag denotes a script or writing system used in
>         conjunction with a language.  Only codes assigned by ISO
>        15924 will be considered for registration.
>
> Randy
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--=20
#-# Martin J. D=FCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


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To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>
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Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:36:15 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:38:35 -0700
Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available
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To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>
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Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
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+1

Mark


2009/5/29 Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com>

> (editor hat on)
>
> I have placed this text, with the following changes.
>
> 1. This sentence has problems with count agreement:
>
> > Script subtags denote the script or writing system
> > used in conjunction with this language.
>
> I note that the first paragraph of this section, introducing the bullet
> list in which this item appears, already says what script subtags are. It
> reads:
>
> --
> <t>Script subtags are used to indicate the script or writing system
> variations that distinguish the written forms of a language or its dialec=
ts.
> The following rules apply to the script subtags:</t>
> --
>
> Therefore I removed this sentence.
>
> 2. I added the phrase "the assignments found in" to make the first senten=
ce
> consistent with other "ISO-assignments" sentences.
>
> The paragraph now reads:
>
> --
> <t>Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according
> to the assignments found in <xref target=3D"ISO15924"></xref> ("Informati=
on
> and documentation -- Codes for the
> representation of names of scripts"), or subsequently assigned by
> the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
> bodies. Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for
> registration.</t>
> --
>
> Note: I also checked that our other references to ISO15924 used the corre=
ct
> title, which they do.
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"
> > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:28 AM
> > To: Randy Presuhn
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)
> >
> > [co-chair hat on] This one was a bit more complicated :-(.
> >
> > I think we have consensus for the following version of point 2 of
> > Section 2.2.3.
> >
> >    2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined
> > according
> >        to [ISO15924] ("Information and documentation -- Codes for
> > the
> >        representation of names of scripts"), or subsequently
> > assigned by
> >        the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing
> > standardization
> >        bodies. Script subtags denote the script or writing system
> > used
> >        in conjunction with this language. Only codes assigned by
> > ISO
> >        15924 will be considered for registration.
> >
> > This is mostly Addison's version, with the last sentence of the
> > paragraph added back in, and with the title fixed as pointed out by
> > Kent.
> >
> > I hope this should address the concern of the commenter, and will
> > be
> > acceptable to everybody on the WG.
> >
> > Regards,    Martin.
> >
> >
> > On 2009/05/25 7:23, Randy Presuhn wrote:
> > > Hi -
> > >
> > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov"<alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> > >> To: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org>
> > >> Cc: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy
> > Presuhn"<randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>
> > >> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM
> > >> Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review
> > Team review
> > > ...
> > >> 6). In Section 2.2.3:
> > >>
> > >>>     2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined
> > according
> > >>>         to [ISO15924]--"Codes for the representation of the
> > names of
> > >>>         scripts": alpha-4 script codes, or subsequently
> > assigned by the
> > >>>         ISO 15924 registration authority or governing
> > standardization
> > >>>         bodies, denoting the script or writing system used in
> > conjunction
> > >>>         with this language.  Only codes assigned by ISO 15924
> > will be
> > >>>         considered for registration.
> > >> The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it has
> > misplaced
> > >> punctuation.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > As a technical contributor:  Yes.
> > >
> > > First: either
> > > s/": alpha-4 script codes,/: alpha-4 script codes,"/
> > > or, better still,
> > > s/]--"Codes for the representation of the names of scripts":
> > alpha-4 script codes//
> > >
> > > Secondly,
> > > s/bodies, denoting the/ bodies.  A script subtag denotes a/
> > >
> > > Propose replacement text, with additional edits, would be:
> > >     2.  Script subtags consist of four letters and are defined
> > according
> > >          to [ISO15924] or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924
> > >          registration authority or governing standardization
> > bodies.
> > >         A script subtag denotes a script or writing system used
> > in
> > >         conjunction with a language.  Only codes assigned by ISO
> > >        15924 will be considered for registration.
> > >
> > > Randy
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> > --
> > #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp   mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>

--00504502cb58ab7d4f046b0f302d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+1<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2009/5/29 Phillips, Addison <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:addison@amazon.com">addison@amazon.com</a>&gt;<=
/span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
(editor hat on)<br>
<br>
I have placed this text, with the following changes.<br>
<br>
1. This sentence has problems with count agreement:<br>
<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; Script subtags denote the script or writing system<br>
&gt; used in conjunction with this language.<br>
<br>
</div>I note that the first paragraph of this section, introducing the bull=
et list in which this item appears, already says what script subtags are. I=
t reads:<br>
<br>
--<br>
&lt;t&gt;Script subtags are used to indicate the script or writing system v=
ariations that distinguish the written forms of a language or its dialects.=
 The following rules apply to the script subtags:&lt;/t&gt;<br>
--<br>
<br>
Therefore I removed this sentence.<br>
<br>
2. I added the phrase &quot;the assignments found in&quot; to make the firs=
t sentence consistent with other &quot;ISO-assignments&quot; sentences.<br>
<br>
The paragraph now reads:<br>
<br>
--<br>
&lt;t&gt;Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according<=
br>
to the assignments found in &lt;xref target=3D&quot;ISO15924&quot;&gt;&lt;/=
xref&gt; (&quot;Information and documentation -- Codes for the<br>
<div class=3D"im">representation of names of scripts&quot;), or subsequentl=
y assigned by<br>
the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization<br>
</div>bodies. Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for regis=
tration.&lt;/t&gt;<br>
<font color=3D"#888888">--<br>
<br>
Note: I also checked that our other references to ISO15924 used the correct=
 title, which they do.<br>
</font><div class=3D"im"><br>
Addison<br>
<br>
Addison Phillips<br>
Globalization Architect -- Lab126<br>
<br>
Internationalization is not a feature.<br>
It is an architecture.<br>
<br>
<br>
</div><div class=3D"im">&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</=
a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org">ltru-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] On<br>
&gt; Behalf Of &quot;Martin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot;<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:28 AM<br>
&gt; To: Randy Presuhn<br>
&gt; Cc: LTRU Working Group<br>
</div><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">&gt; Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 53: =
Section 2.2.3 (2) is murky (Apps #6)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; [co-chair hat on] This one was a bit more complicated :-(.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think we have consensus for the following version of point 2 of<br>
&gt; Section 2.2.3.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A02. =C2=A0Script subtags consist of four letters and were =
defined<br>
&gt; according<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to [ISO15924] (&quot;Information and docume=
ntation -- Codes for<br>
&gt; the<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0representation of names of scripts&quot;), =
or subsequently<br>
&gt; assigned by<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the ISO 15924 registration authority or gov=
erning<br>
&gt; standardization<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bodies. Script subtags denote the script or=
 writing system<br>
&gt; used<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in conjunction with this language. Only cod=
es assigned by<br>
&gt; ISO<br>
&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A015924 will be considered for registration.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is mostly Addison&#39;s version, with the last sentence of the<br=
>
&gt; paragraph added back in, and with the title fixed as pointed out by<br=
>
&gt; Kent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I hope this should address the concern of the commenter, and will<br>
&gt; be<br>
&gt; acceptable to everybody on the WG.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 2009/05/25 7:23, Randy Presuhn wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; Hi -<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; From: &quot;Alexey Melnikov&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexey=
.melnikov@isode.com">alexey.melnikov@isode.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; To: &quot;LTRU Working Group&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ltru@=
ietf.org">ltru@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Cc: &quot;Martin J. D=C3=BCrst&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:due=
rst@it.aoyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt;; &quot;Randy<br>
&gt; Presuhn&quot;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:randy_presuhn@mindspring.com">randy=
_presuhn@mindspring.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 5:23 AM<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Subject: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Rev=
iew<br>
&gt; Team review<br>
&gt; &gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 6). In Section 2.2.3:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. =C2=A0Script subtags consist of four let=
ters and were defined<br>
&gt; according<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to [ISO15924]--&quot;Codes fo=
r the representation of the<br>
&gt; names of<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scripts&quot;: alpha-4 script=
 codes, or subsequently<br>
&gt; assigned by the<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ISO 15924 registration author=
ity or governing<br>
&gt; standardization<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bodies, denoting the script o=
r writing system used in<br>
&gt; conjunction<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with this language. =C2=A0Onl=
y codes assigned by ISO 15924<br>
&gt; will be<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 considered for registration.<=
br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; The first sentence is hard to understand. It looks like it ha=
s<br>
&gt; misplaced<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; punctuation.<br>
&gt; &gt; ...<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; As a technical contributor: =C2=A0Yes.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; First: either<br>
&gt; &gt; s/&quot;: alpha-4 script codes,/: alpha-4 script codes,&quot;/<br=
>
&gt; &gt; or, better still,<br>
&gt; &gt; s/]--&quot;Codes for the representation of the names of scripts&q=
uot;:<br>
&gt; alpha-4 script codes//<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Secondly,<br>
&gt; &gt; s/bodies, denoting the/ bodies. =C2=A0A script subtag denotes a/<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Propose replacement text, with additional edits, would be:<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. =C2=A0Script subtags consist of four letters and=
 are defined<br>
&gt; according<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to [ISO15924] or subsequently a=
ssigned by the ISO 15924<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0registration authority or gover=
ning standardization<br>
&gt; bodies.<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 A script subtag denotes a script or w=
riting system used<br>
&gt; in<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 conjunction with a language. =C2=A0On=
ly codes assigned by ISO<br>
&gt; &gt; =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A015924 will be considered for registrat=
ion.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Randy<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; &gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru</a><br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br>
&gt; #-# <a href=3D"http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> =C2=A0 mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.aoyam=
a.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; Ltru mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Ltru@ietf.org">Ltru@ietf.org</a><br>
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