From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 22:45:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0266E3A6AF5 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:45:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FKIJ-wsR-v+u for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4485F3A69C6 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:45:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=tJxxxMBypQeguHNJwzf5KFOTuWVfq4rLVnM6pXnGgurzv7ZFcBtfFhhayqZn2pPD; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBMoj-0006Q2-F8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:45:45 -0400 Message-ID: <002501c9e345$5c709360$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <0717FC7F73404B4A9118B16CF0C9ED83@DGBP7M81> <20090528132117.GA10353@nic.fr> <4A1FAA26.8050301@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:45:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69685e95c12943b257777821e975fd017af0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:45:46 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 2:25 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #50: Change registry format to XML (Apps #3) > > [co-chair hat on] > > I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis for this issue. The WG has discussed this issue > already, and a wide variety of reasons has been given for why a change > to an XML-based format at this point would be a bad idea. ... Ok, I've recorded the closure of this issue in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/50#comment:1 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 22:51:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC5C3A6ADC for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:51:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.299 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.299 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g0s6VJPZbeia for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573C73A69C6 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:51:01 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=o6vCCBpeyz+7/pIBf501MONdMx3SLsjhMOIWzfNU3oEo+xCJqhLu/L71ZXE0hNGW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBMtp-0006Gc-Rm for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:51:02 -0400 Message-ID: <003201c9e346$19139760$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <004001c9dcb8$f1daa0a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A1FA937.2090301@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:50:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968893eb6e7f07ca775654770cca464b9ec350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:51:02 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" ; "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 2:21 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #48 Hosting of mailing list (Apps #1) > > [co-chair hat on] > > I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, as the current arrangements for mailing lists > including a third party are working well. > > Regards, Martin. > > P.S.: Randy, as before, can you please close the issues in the tracker > when you get back from your trip? Thanks a lot. Done. Closed ticket is available at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/48 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 22:56:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3DBA3A6C5D for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JkVO3Hga5pWb for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F11F03A69A0 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:56:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=cSD4mRHgwGtdyKTyZ+MTxM2QVtcitfOAsncrSn3yYDyg5F+jkUF0dIorQoAt9AQ6; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBMz1-0004X9-Ew for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:56:23 -0400 Message-ID: <003d01c9e346$d886d260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <000901c9dcb4$a1550f20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20090528131844.GB13191@nic.fr> <4A1FA3EC.3070807@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:56:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968936835ed15b4df1bc689ab17d63be754350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can a WG member update ? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:56:23 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Stephane Bortzmeyer" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 1:59 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Can a WG member update ? (Was: Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2) > > I guess Randy should be able to answer this question, but he's away. > I haven't been able to get a grip on this tracker myself, so for me, the > question is more "can anybody except Randy handle this" rather than "can > ordinary WG members update issues". But that may simply be a bilateral > problem between me and this tracker. You can, but only if you can log in (using the hard-to-see "login" link near the upper right corner of the trouble ticket pages) and if your account has been granted persmission to add/modify entries. I think only Martin and I are supposed to have been given those permissions for the ltru database. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 22:59:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445813A69A0 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:59:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tgT1Msw71Zpa for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 839F43A6820 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:59:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=FzMQnAOoo/aeduxjfoNPz66Tc3a50wFe4Qq+kGnqtgOnX77KMeCaLcBXMFGFsZX3; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBN2C-0005wa-TS for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:59:41 -0400 Message-ID: <004401c9e347$4e1741e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A1FA996.9060308@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:59:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696860337bc6f1c5bfc16052fd5ccbd8668e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 05:59:41 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" ; "Doug Ewell" > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 2:23 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #49: Add reference to RFC 5198 (Apps #2) > > [co-chair hat on] > > I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis for this issue, as argued for by various > contributors in this thread. Ok, http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/49 is now closed with a "won't fix" status. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 23:02:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68053A6C19 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:02:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KG7EwG+7wHq9 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2995F3A6820 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:02:25 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=trxWRP46R+8Gv+fvXwAMPHNC4HswSo9H1Hn0JAZvs1oTmgM4MXMqU3OHMQIR5m6P; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBN4r-0005KY-Ix for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:02:25 -0400 Message-ID: <004b01c9e347$b02d1ee0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <953447EA37024919B8A0422C0E26284F@DGBP7M81> <4A1FAADD.4000902@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:02:18 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696830e0ed3165ade5afe01a1d7bee89a1fb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:02:26 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" ; "Doug Ewell" > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 2:29 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #51: MAY in 2.2.4 (E) on Channel Islands (Apps #4) > > [co-chair hat on] > > I conclude that there is consensus in the WG to not change anything in > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis for this issue. The MAY appropriately reflects > the fact that this registration is possible (as long as the conditions > continue to hold), but it is not made currently because nobody currently > sees a need for it. Ok, I've marked the issue "closed" with a "won't fix" status in http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/51 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 23:05:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7599C3A6857 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:05:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qhxo0PI8uH6v for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD47728C10F for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:05:09 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=sOAczWdnfQEc4l8oCjcNaxd/xwsgx01Tll9Wq0LaGo6O3b3b7E4cKZODREjojuYo; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBN7W-0003Jb-A9 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:05:10 -0400 Message-ID: <005401c9e348$121fe380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <031b01c9dcbd$2ee41900$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0ADBED7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><001001c9de60$bb94fd20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer><4A1FABA0.1030605@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0CBD96D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:05:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69688b656534bfb992b1cc00a70394898da3350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:05:27 -0000 Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "PeterConstable" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #52: Delete reference to RFC 2860 (Apps #5) > > (editor hat on) > > I have opened a new editor's copy (draft-23) and removed all reference to RFC 2860 in that document. ... I've updated the ticket as "fixed" http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/52 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 23:11:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 511ED3A6876 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:11:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.217, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Inu7cWmG8ITj for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97B853A679F for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:11:12 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=e58oiASzUP0wEkw5cGOmJ5Zp+a7Oxab3l2FlUMNM9eMaBiu24UXf9OqjHz1qtM8e; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBNDN-0001TA-6n for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:11:13 -0400 Message-ID: <005f01c9e348$e9c63000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <032701c9dcbf$b6b74c60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A1FB2D3.7070505@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0CBD972@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:11:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968ca05914aef05285437c5dd842bbeb4c0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #54: section 3.7 requirements on maintainers of additional registries (Apps #7) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:11:13 -0000 Hi - In accordance with the preceding discussion on this thread, I've closed this ticket with a "won't fix" status, and included extracts of Martin's wrap-up in the ticket. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/54 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 23:20:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7688C3A6B9F for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:20:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.413 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.413 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id US5u+WEmBsD8 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972543A69DD for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:20:38 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=sqvPmmcns3h4NE/3V9ne/TCROXVWHtRKFGqT75bpiSw964B0uts4VxNjfKp2Jjia; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBNMV-0000Z9-3B for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:20:39 -0400 Message-ID: <007e01c9e34a$3a411a80$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:20:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69685305b6a6fdc995b83f42762631816899350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:20:39 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "CE Whitehead" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:42 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available > > [co-chair hat on] > > This is the last comment on issue #45 > (http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/45) that I have found. > > Although further suggestions for minor "improvements" have been made, > nobody has expressed strong disagreement for the current text on this > issue in draft-22 > (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22#section-4.5). > > I therefore conclude that the text in draft-22 represents WG consensus > on this issue. ... Ok, I've marked it "closed" in the tracker, and included the resolution text in the ticket. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/45 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 1 23:27:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8A03A6DA2 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:27:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.163, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pgT3YWiHKwu4 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465093A6D97 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:27:49 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=HFMCa/dbjOnsSJtV9N+fJJe1QypOcFmudRaxeN/2Mgk23Q2P+0EpLAPbnAVRe6+X; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.100] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBNTR-00078k-Oj for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 02:27:49 -0400 Message-ID: <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:27:41 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69681961be33ea44bb46a874f47be62779db350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.100 Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 06:27:50 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "CE Whitehead" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:42 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available ... > With this, I think I have declared consensus on all the open issues, and > these issues all can be closed. Two of them, if I count correctly, > require editorial action. I would like to ask the editors to prepare an > updated copy, ready for submission at my instruction. ... There was a flurry of commentary after you announced consensus on #53. The editors seem to have gone with a different text, so I have left this one open until I get some clarification. Randy From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 3 11:39:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B9B3A6778 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtU2nqRgbdyt for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424F83A6986 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:38:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:38:40 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:38:40 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:38:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? Thread-Index: AcnjS0ZdEkRcd1WAQduyk2YFz1XXRQBLyT+w Message-ID: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:39:02 -0000 Addison or others: is there a response to Randy's question? Can we get some= traction to close on this? Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:28 PM To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? Hi - > From: "Martin J. D=FCrst" > To: "CE Whitehead" > Cc: > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:42 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available ... > With this, I think I have declared consensus on all the open issues, and > these issues all can be closed. Two of them, if I count correctly, > require editorial action. I would like to ask the editors to prepare an > updated copy, ready for submission at my instruction. ... There was a flurry of commentary after you announced consensus on #53. The editors seem to have gone with a different text, so I have left this one open until I get some clarification. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 3 11:53:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2843D28C1A2 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:53:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Uyl8hxVGRHb for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E6328C1AC for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:53:04 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,299,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="228262968" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 03 Jun 2009 18:52:59 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n53Iqp6f020069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:52:51 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:52:51 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:52:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? Thread-Index: AcnjS0ZdEkRcd1WAQduyk2YFz1XXRQBLyT+wAABpuJA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0F9795C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:53:05 -0000 SSdtIHdhaXRpbmcgZm9yIE1hcnRpbiB0byBzYXkgc29tZXRoaW5nL2FueXRoaW5nLiBJJ3ZlIHBv c3RlZCBhbiBlZGl0b3IncyBjb3B5LCBhcyByZXF1ZXN0ZWQuIEkgdGhpbmsgIzUzIGlzIHJlc29s dmVkLCBhcyBteSBlZGl0cyB3ZXJlIG1pbm9yIGFuZCB3ZXJlIG1hZGUgb24gdGhpcyBsaXN0IGFu ZCBub2JvZHkgaGFzIHNhaWQgImJvbyIgYWJvdXQgdGhlbS4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0KDQpBZGRpc29u IFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRp b25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0K DQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IFBldGVyIENvbnN0YWJsZSBb bWFpbHRvOnBldGVyY29uQG1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb21dDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSnVuZSAw MywgMjAwOSAxMTozOSBBTQ0KPiBUbzogUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb247IGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcN Cj4gU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IFtMdHJ1XSBUaWNrZXQgIzUzIHJlc29sdXRpb24/DQo+IA0KPiBBZGRp c29uIG9yIG90aGVyczogaXMgdGhlcmUgYSByZXNwb25zZSB0byBSYW5keSdzIHF1ZXN0aW9uPyBD YW4gd2UNCj4gZ2V0IHNvbWUgdHJhY3Rpb24gdG8gY2xvc2Ugb24gdGhpcz8NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBQ ZXRlcg0KPiANCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbg0KPiBCZWhhbGYg T2YgUmFuZHkgUHJlc3Vobg0KPiBTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEp1bmUgMDEsIDIwMDkgMTE6MjggUE0N Cj4gVG86IGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogW0x0cnVdIFRpY2tldCAjNTMgcmVzb2x1 dGlvbj8NCj4gDQo+IEhpIC0NCj4gDQo+ID4gRnJvbTogIk1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3QiIDxkdWVy c3RAaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwPg0KPiA+IFRvOiAiQ0UgV2hpdGVoZWFkIiA8Y2V3Y2F0aGFyQGhv dG1haWwuY29tPg0KPiA+IENjOiA8bHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZz4NCj4gPiBTZW50OiBGcmlkYXksIE1h eSAyOSwgMjAwOSAzOjQyIEFNDQo+ID4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBUaWNrZXQgIzQ1OiB1 cGRhdGVkIGVkaXRvcidzIGNvcHkgYXZhaWxhYmxlDQo+IC4uLg0KPiA+IFdpdGggdGhpcywgSSB0 aGluayBJIGhhdmUgZGVjbGFyZWQgY29uc2Vuc3VzIG9uIGFsbCB0aGUgb3Blbg0KPiBpc3N1ZXMs IGFuZA0KPiA+IHRoZXNlIGlzc3VlcyBhbGwgY2FuIGJlIGNsb3NlZC4gVHdvIG9mIHRoZW0sIGlm IEkgY291bnQgY29ycmVjdGx5LA0KPiA+IHJlcXVpcmUgZWRpdG9yaWFsIGFjdGlvbi4gSSB3b3Vs ZCBsaWtlIHRvIGFzayB0aGUgZWRpdG9ycyB0bw0KPiBwcmVwYXJlIGFuDQo+ID4gdXBkYXRlZCBj b3B5LCByZWFkeSBmb3Igc3VibWlzc2lvbiBhdCBteSBpbnN0cnVjdGlvbi4NCj4gLi4uDQo+IA0K PiBUaGVyZSB3YXMgYSBmbHVycnkgb2YgY29tbWVudGFyeSBhZnRlciB5b3UgYW5ub3VuY2VkIGNv bnNlbnN1cyBvbg0KPiAjNTMuDQo+IFRoZSBlZGl0b3JzIHNlZW0gdG8gaGF2ZSBnb25lIHdpdGgg YSBkaWZmZXJlbnQgdGV4dCwgc28gSSBoYXZlIGxlZnQNCj4gdGhpcw0KPiBvbmUgb3BlbiB1bnRp bCBJIGdldCBzb21lIGNsYXJpZmljYXRpb24uDQo+IA0KPiBSYW5keQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IF9fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGlu ZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQoNCg== From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:57:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9786428C14C for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:57:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dvZA4jePjU+v for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-px0-f187.google.com (mail-px0-f187.google.com [209.85.216.187]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6FA3A6DD7 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pxi17 with SMTP id 17so204476pxi.29 for ; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:57:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=feX3z5qKiBtdoMC50xOxBNrI1BibWtGVG4lCu4R9gmU=; b=q1RXrdtTlf+8mqYg2B7jcMD5xlWRh05maxKxHcjEVarW2RZWKgTkK0fHt+MCCSfipj tDau08Jt1yVOg9cA5oJj3gdmzZS+Egt1ECAvnqaXG6MscMYHgpFJbOEhZyeqqG3zPUn2 QuBn0b2bsJGNKjyl9m2JKbtHyPKfnmk15ROsE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=Cs+STDHafUcee8YLRaiQBAEXtsd2qNE/4c1dGicAbbOaWkx3wNVAkzDF0tIn5YXCle 4dyvb1Dm7Kuz88pCBrZTGoPwzFczVA6JG83qjcOuxmp20R7NmXPpukqLJJWYOnmDtWzG QqH36JiNtrxn+q6yp8Ax0jGrYxoccaqlEbpGo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.238.20 with SMTP id l20mr510576wfh.169.1244055462982; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:57:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:57:42 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: af508ca64ddc531f Message-ID: <30b660a20906031157h2ff19636va725ae95bf2af166@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: Peter Constable Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd17e78f3b6a6046b763bc3 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:57:59 -0000 --000e0cd17e78f3b6a6046b763bc3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The last text I see from Addison was: Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according to the assignments found in ("Information and documentation -- Codes for the representation of names of scripts"), or subsequently assigned by the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization bodies. Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for registration. I agreed to it, and nobody on that thread objected to it. So I think Randy/Martin should call for consensus on this. Mark On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:38, Peter Constable wrote= : > Addison or others: is there a response to Randy's question? Can we get so= me > traction to close on this? > > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:28 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? > > Hi - > > > From: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" > > To: "CE Whitehead" > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:42 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available > ... > > With this, I think I have declared consensus on all the open issues, an= d > > these issues all can be closed. Two of them, if I count correctly, > > require editorial action. I would like to ask the editors to prepare an > > updated copy, ready for submission at my instruction. > ... > > There was a flurry of commentary after you announced consensus on #53. > The editors seem to have gone with a different text, so I have left this > one open until I get some clarification. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --000e0cd17e78f3b6a6046b763bc3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The last text I see from Addison was:

<t>Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according<= br> to the assignments found in <xref target=3D"ISO15924"></= xref> ("Information and documentation -- Codes for the representati= on of names of scripts"), or subsequently assigned by
the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization
bodies. Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for regis= tration.</t>

I agreed to it, and nobody on that thread objecte= d to it. So I think Randy/Martin should call for consensus on this.

Mark


On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:38, Peter Cons= table <peter= con@microsoft.com> wrote:
Addison or others: is there a response to Randy's question? Can we get = some traction to close on this?


Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:28 PM
To: ltru@ietf.org
Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution?

Hi -

> From: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
> To: "CE Whitehead" <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
> Cc: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available ...
> With this, I think I have declared consensus on all the open issues, a= nd
> these issues all can be closed. Two of them, if I count correctly,
> require editorial action. I would like to ask the editors to prepare a= n
> updated copy, ready for submission at my instruction.
...

There was a flurry of commentary after you announced consensus on #53.
The editors seem to have gone with a different text, so I have left this one open until I get some clarification.

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--000e0cd17e78f3b6a6046b763bc3-- From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 3 12:11:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46F2528C192 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:11:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9FXl4m09wrhb for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7EF93A6DBD for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:11:35 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:11:35 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:11:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? Thread-Index: AcnkfUVIgw+OkQK4TOiBHrE4fMrjmgAAdHRQ Message-ID: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906031157h2ff19636va725ae95bf2af166@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906031157h2ff19636va725ae95bf2af166@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06AC6DB2NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? 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YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUiIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnU8L2E+PG86cD48L286cD48L3A+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8 L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05vcm1hbD48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwv cD4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjwvYm9keT4NCg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06AC6DB2NAEXMSGC117re_-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 3 14:57:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B0B3A6FB4 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sUGc4p2tARff for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A4D3A6EE5 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:57:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=K/CU67jEK5cqmyahxEo6vH7etn2Ed4IA6seTZOMq61Nd8QHzfkypr+DxkCsQVBKD; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.206.119] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MBySr-0002bx-0Y for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 17:57:41 -0400 Message-ID: <005101c9e496$556b6a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp><008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0F9795C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:57:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968d59f0d43d10ae20216990fb560c102e4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.206.119 Subject: [Ltru] Why so quiet? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:57:40 -0000 Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Peter Constable" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? > > I'm waiting for Martin to say something/anything. > I've posted an editor's copy, as requested. > I think #53 is resolved, as my edits were minor and were > made on this list and nobody has said "boo" about them. ... Martin, our AD, and I are dealing with a massive set of Apps Area review comments. In the interest of progress, we're trying to pare it down to essential issues that have not already been addressed by the WG. There are a *lot* of comments, and, unfortunately, not structured in a way that facilitates quick dispatch. We're doing our best as our own commitments permit. Randy From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 3 18:03:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9EE63A689F for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:03:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jaTTK2qod1As for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D8F3A67D2 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:03:16 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:03:16 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:03:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Why so quiet? Thread-Index: Acnklm0TNt+LrDZyQWaDNB9yGHPKOgAGce0g Message-ID: References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp><008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A0F9795C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <005101c9e496$556b6a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <005101c9e496$556b6a20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Why so quiet? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:03:15 -0000 Thanks for working on it. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 2:58 PM To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] Why so quiet? Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Peter Constable" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:52 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? > > I'm waiting for Martin to say something/anything. > I've posted an editor's copy, as requested. > I think #53 is resolved, as my edits were minor and were > made on this list and nobody has said "boo" about them. ... Martin, our AD, and I are dealing with a massive set of Apps Area review comments. In the interest of progress, we're trying to pare it down to essential issues that have not already been addressed by the WG. There are a *lot* of comments, and, unfortunately, not structured in a way that facilitates quick dispatch. We're doing our best as our own commitments permit. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 3 20:10:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D525B3A6D7A for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:10:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rhFTJRU3c0uK for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.218]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C8B03A68F0 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 20:10:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9226 invoked from network); 4 Jun 2009 03:10:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.218) with ESMTP; 04 Jun 2009 03:10:05 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:10:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Why so quiet? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 03:10:11 -0000 Randy Presuhn wrote: > Martin, our AD, and I are dealing with a massive set of > Apps Area review comments. In the interest of progress, > we're trying to pare it down to essential issues that have > not already been addressed by the WG. There are a *lot* > of comments, and, unfortunately, not structured in a way > that facilitates quick dispatch. We're doing our best as > our own commitments permit. That was what I was afraid of, when Alexey came back on May 24 saying he had "a fairly long list of comments" from the review team. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Sat Jun 6 13:15:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE6D3A6A36 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:15:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xV5wjuJ3xb7 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1263A67B6 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.157.133] (92.40.157.133.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.157.133]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:15:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:14:57 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: LTRU Working Group References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:15:51 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > This is the first batch. I received a fairly long list of comments and > still deciding what to do with the rest. Sorry for the delay. This is the second batch. There would also be a third (and the last) batch, with about 6 issues. 8). Section 1 currently says: This document replaces [RFC4646], which replaced [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. RFC 4646 used to say: This document, in combination with [RFC4647], replaces [RFC3066], which replaced [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. I think it would be more correct for 4646bis to say: This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. 10). In Section 2.2 > o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by > hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- > Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in > single quotes ('Hant'). > > o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which > are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an > [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script > subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this > document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized". Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. 12). In Section 2.2.1: > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > of what such a registration might include: one of the > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- > Latn" valid. > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > registration with ISO 639, I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the Language Subtag Expert. > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, such as IETF LC. 13). In Section 3.5: > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable > and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts > to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry > itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions > in Section 3.4. Suggested replacement for the paragraph: The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are permitted with adequate justification. However, addition of translations or transliterations are not considered sufficient justification for corrections or updates. Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Sat Jun 6 15:16:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 044253A6880 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fu+7yiBwAMYD for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:16:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F473A67B5 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33315 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MD4Bg-0006B6-7T; Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:16:30 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:16:23 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review Thread-Index: Acnm9GzjTjdZuuWO4kiMn8eSoNhp1Q== In-Reply-To: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MD4Bg-0006B6-7T. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MD4Bg-0006B6-7T 7b48d9e9ec9b7ca419ce6abfc7290307 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:16:34 -0000 Den 2009-06-06 22.14, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > 8). Section 1 currently says: > > This document replaces [RFC4646], which replaced [RFC3066] and its > predecessor [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see > Section 8. > > RFC 4646 used to say: > > This document, in combination with [RFC4647], replaces [RFC3066], > which replaced [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, > see Section 8. > > I think it would be more correct for 4646bis to say: > > This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination > with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. > For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. That would be a very minor point. The important point is that 4646bis becomes BCP 47 (together with RFC 4647). I suggest no change to that paragraph. > 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete > because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that > describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid > elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the > reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF > comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" > production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and > "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are > found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. I think the table of contents does sufficiently good job of that. In addition, not all of "irregular"&"regular" have a preferred-values. I suggest no change. > 10). In Section 2.2 > >> o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by >> hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- >> Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in >> single quotes ('Hant'). >> >> o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which >> are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an >> [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script >> subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this >> document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). > > These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate > categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". > Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? "Code" is what these items are called in the respective source standards. They are not "subtags" in the source standards. I suggest no change. > 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the > subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is > unrecognized". > > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. Perhaps. But anyone finding that text would also be able to figure it out from the current text. And it would also cause more delay in adopting the document. I suggest no change. > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > >> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA >> registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 >> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example >> of what such a registration might include: one of the >> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary >> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- >> Latn" valid. >> >> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >> registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. I think the current wording is sufficient. It makes no practical difference to change to a "MUST". I suggest no change. >> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >> before they are registered with IANA. > > This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, > such as IETF LC. What is a big deal? Why would an IETF LC be appropriate for this? I suggest no change. > 13). In Section 3.5: > >> While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable >> and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts >> to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry >> itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions >> in Section 3.4. > > Suggested replacement for the paragraph: > > The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be > stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are > permitted with adequate justification. However, addition > of translations or transliterations are not considered > sufficient justification for corrections or updates. > > Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is > trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. "MAY" (and the other magic words) are used in this way all over the place in this document. There is no protocol specified (though protocols may *use* language tags as specified in the document). All the "MAY"s and "MUST"s in 4646bis apply to the registry maintenance process and to what can and cannot be done to the data items in the registry. That includes this "MAY". That paragraph could be wordsmithed differently (takes time...), but the "Description" fields still "MAY be changed" (by the regular maintenance process). I suggest no change. /kent k From doug@ewellic.org Sat Jun 6 20:43:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACD213A6A53 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:43:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.714 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.714 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.300, BAYES_50=0.001, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h74XuOegjbeU for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 90FCF3A67F3 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19573 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2009 03:43:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.44) with ESMTP; 07 Jun 2009 03:43:20 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:43:15 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review, X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 03:43:18 -0000 I'll wait until Randy assigns separate ticket numbers for these, and then address them separately, because I know I'll get flamed if I lump them into a single e-mail as Alexey and Kent have done. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Sun Jun 7 01:51:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CCD3A6953 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 01:51:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I1Q0B0MCN5AH for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 01:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46A3D3A67A4 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 01:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.45.9] (92.40.45.9.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.45.9]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:51:03 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2B7F55.6030409@isode.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 09:50:29 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Kent Karlsson References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 08:51:06 -0000 Kent Karlsson wrote: >Den 2009-06-06 22.14, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > > [...] >>10). In Section 2.2 >> >> >>> o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by >>> hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- >>> Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in >>> single quotes ('Hant'). >>> >>> o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which >>> are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an >>> [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script >>> subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this >>> document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). >>> >>> >>These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate >>categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". >>Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? >> >> >"Code" is what these items are called in the respective source standards. >They are not "subtags" in the source standards. > >I suggest no change. > > Ok with me. >>11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the >>subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is >>unrecognized". >> >>Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from >>ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A >>compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. >> >> >Perhaps. But anyone finding that text would also be able to figure it out >from the current text. > Are you sure? >And it would also cause more delay in adopting the document. > > Lack of such table might cause delay in adopting this document by protocol developers. >I suggest no change. > > >>12). In Section 2.2.1: >> >> >>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA >>> registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 >>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example >>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary >>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- >>> Latn" valid. >>> >>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>> registration with ISO 639, >>> >>> >>I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to >>register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be >>known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the >>Language Subtag Expert. >> >> >I think the current wording is sufficient. It makes no practical difference >to change to a "MUST". > > If the document uses RECOMMENDED, where it is using MUST for other similar cases, then it needs to explain why there might be an exception here. Just change this to MUST and be done with this issue. >I suggest no change. > > >>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >>> before they are registered with IANA. >>> >>> >>This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, >>such as IETF LC. >> >> >What is a big deal? Why would an IETF LC be appropriate for this? > > To alert IAB and other interested parties about the situation. >I suggest no change. > > From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Sun Jun 7 03:17:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B813A6BC6 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 03:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kBRB5Qb+BXqU for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 03:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A18063A6BC3 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 03:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.185.195] (92.40.185.195.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.185.195]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:17:35 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2B9398.3060707@isode.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:16:56 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: LTRU Working Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Followup on AD review of 4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 10:17:34 -0000 The issues 34-39, 42, 44, 46-47 were addressed satisfactory. # 40: The new text is better, but it doesn't specify any dealine (as other cases do). If the WG and Expert Reviewers think that this is Ok, then it is Ok with me. # 41: I would prefer the text to be clearer about who is doing what and why, but the issue was discussed, so the resolution is Ok with me. # 43: This was not resolved in a satisfactory manner. I will post a separate message on this trying to explain my issues in more details. # 45: I haven't checked changes to this one yet. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Sun Jun 7 04:17:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FB943A68EF for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 04:17:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mAmdibYfsPsq for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 04:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E543A67FB for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 04:17:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.185.195] (92.40.185.195.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.185.195]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:17:12 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2BA18A.7060808@isode.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 12:16:26 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: LTRU Working Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:17:10 -0000 Section 3.1.2 in -22 says: > The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record. > This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field > whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record > contains a date (see Section 5.1) making it possible to easily > recognize different versions of the registry. While this is an improvement, this didn't actually fully addressed my initial issue (see below). Section 5.1 in -22 says: > Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File- > Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the > most recent modification date in the [RFC3339] "full-date" format: > included in any request to insert or modify records will be a new > File-Date record indicating the acceptance date of the record. This > record is to be placed first in the registry, replacing the existing > File-Date record. In the event that the File-Date record present in > the registry has a later date than the record being inserted or > modified, then the latest (most recent) record will be preserved. > IANA should attempt to process multiple registration requests in > order according to the File-Date in the form, since one registration > could otherwise cause a more recent change to be overwritten. I think the document needs to be much clearer on how File-Date is to be used by various parties - IANA, Expert Reviewer, applications using the registry. If section 3.1.2 is stating a requirement ("any changes (or a group of changes on the same date) must be detectable by examining the File-Date value in the registry"), then section 5.1 doesn't address this requirement. And I think it is indeed a very good requirement that must be addressed. My problem is the following sentence in section 5.1: In the event that the File-Date record present in the registry has a later date than the record being inserted or modified, then the latest (most recent) record will be preserved. This instruction makes some changes undetectable. For example if a registration request was accepted by the Expert Reviewer, but was missed by IANA for some reason, then once a newer registration forces update to registry's File-Date, then an application that checks the registry's File-Date has no way of detecting that a previously missed change was applied by IANA. This makes File-Date useless as far as I can see. I can see a couple of ways of making this clearer: 1). Fix the process so that application of accepted changes with File-Date < registry's File-Date forces registry's File-Date to be updated (for example to the current date). This is my preferred resolution to this. 2). Document how File-Date can and can't be used. In particular document that it can't be used for detecting missed changes. I really dislike that solution, but I mention it anyway. There might be other ways of addressing this that I've missed. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Sun Jun 7 06:26:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913D83A6C0A for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M-0RhWLV+4sH for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 06:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 544E83A6B8A for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 06:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:37887 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MDIOX-0003LV-3x; Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:26:43 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:26:37 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value Thread-Index: Acnnc5VedIb3T/UtxkWS3HnpE3W38Q== In-Reply-To: <4A2BA18A.7060808@isode.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MDIOX-0003LV-3x. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1MDIOX-0003LV-3x 822f2d8a11796dc2955d0dd72c8d214e Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 13:26:44 -0000 Den 2009-06-07 13.16, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > I can see a couple of ways of making this clearer: > > 1). Fix the process so that application of accepted changes with > File-Date < registry's File-Date forces registry's File-Date to be > updated (for example to the current date). This is my preferred > resolution to this. > > 2). Document how File-Date can and can't be used. In particular document > that it can't be used for detecting missed changes. I really dislike > that solution, but I mention it anyway. > > There might be other ways of addressing this that I've missed. Or, require that IANA changes the submitted File-Date to the date IANA processes the given batch of changes actually applying them to the registry and publishes the result, and also require that IANA processes at most one batch of LSR changes per day (which I think you intended to include as a requirement in order to achieve what you want, but did not state). This way would be easy and not require a test of "given File-Date < registry's File-Date" which may easily be missed to be tested. Nor would it be very restrictive, given that batches of LSR changes do not occur very often. In the rare event that two (or more) batches come in on the same day, they could either be merged into one batch (likely to have happened already before they get to IANA) or they could be strung out one per day. /kent k From doug@ewellic.org Sun Jun 7 08:48:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932173A6CAC for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:48:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.358 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.358 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.356, BAYES_50=0.001, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lrplqgYIJpAp for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1559C3A6CA2 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 08:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32330 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2009 15:48:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth16.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.22) with ESMTP; 07 Jun 2009 15:48:41 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:48:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #40: AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:48:39 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > # 40: The new text is better, but it doesn't specify any dealine (as > other cases do). If the WG and Expert Reviewers think that this is Ok, > then it is Ok with me. I think this is expected to be such a rare and extraordinary situation, and we have so little experience (i.e. none) petitioning ISO 3166/RA in this way, that the vagueness seems justified and harmless. Any number of days we specify is likely to be as arbitrary as any other. Remember that the new ISO 3166-1 rule about not reusing code elements for 50 years should greatly reduce or eliminate the stated scenario of "an ISO 3166-1 code that is blocked from registration by an existing subtag." This is a corner-of-the-corner case, and as one of the Designated Experts likely to be caught in the middle of the whole scenario should it ever occur, I don't see a problem here. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Sun Jun 7 09:07:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C48B3A6CDF for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:07:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YSPevo0O-3hG for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 612973A6B3A for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.185.195] (92.40.185.195.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.185.195]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 17:07:12 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2BE573.7040606@isode.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:06:11 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Kent Karlsson References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:07:10 -0000 Kent Karlsson wrote: >Den 2009-06-07 13.16, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > > > >>I can see a couple of ways of making this clearer: >> >>1). Fix the process so that application of accepted changes with >>File-Date < registry's File-Date forces registry's File-Date to be >>updated (for example to the current date). This is my preferred >>resolution to this. >> >>2). Document how File-Date can and can't be used. In particular document >>that it can't be used for detecting missed changes. I really dislike >>that solution, but I mention it anyway. >> >>There might be other ways of addressing this that I've missed. >> >> >Or, require that IANA changes the submitted File-Date to the date >IANA processes the given batch of changes actually applying them to the >registry and publishes the result, and also require that IANA processes at >most one batch of LSR changes per day (which I think you intended to include >as a requirement in order to achieve what you want, but did not state). > >This way would be easy and not require a test of "given File-Date < >registry's File-Date" which may easily be missed to be tested. Nor would it >be very restrictive, given that batches of LSR changes do not occur very >often. > > Indeed, this works as well. >In the rare event that two (or more) batches come in on the same day, >they could either be merged into one batch (likely to have happened already >before they get to IANA) or they could be strung out one per day. > > Right. From doug@ewellic.org Sun Jun 7 09:13:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36F463A6CED for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:13:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.061 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.061 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.537, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCXrugbWpkUi for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout09-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.14]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 427F63A6B3A for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9604 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2009 16:13:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpout09.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.14) with ESMTP; 07 Jun 2009 16:13:41 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 10:13:40 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:13:39 -0000 Sorry, there is no ticket for this yet, but at least this e-mail deals with only one issue. Alexey Melnikov wrote: >>>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >>>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>>> registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ >>>> RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >>>> before they are registered with IANA. >>> >>> This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider >>> review, such as IETF LC. >> >> What is a big deal? Why would an IETF LC be appropriate for this? > > To alert IAB and other interested parties about the situation. Huh? Someone wants to register a language subtag for (say) Loxian and submits a proposal form to ietf-languages. The Language Subtag Reviewer, or designee, submits a proposal to ISO 639/RA-JAC. That body consults with Linguist List, and after due process decides not to assign a code element. The original requester makes a convincing case to ietf-languages that the subtag is justified. The Reviewer and group "closely scrutinize" the request and decide to assign the subtag. Why would this matter deserve special attention by the Internet Architecture Board? Who are the "other interested parties" who need to review this? The tag "i-enochian" was registered in 2002. If done under 4646 or 4646bis, it would have been the primary language subtag "enochian" instead. As I recall, neither the IAB nor "other interested parties" were specially alerted. What problems did this cause? -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From cewcathar@hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 14:13:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3CB33A6774 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GsuftRfXbBd9 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s22.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s22.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.97]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F9D928C0FB for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W39 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s22.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:53 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d4b05110-455a-485a-89b7-74056968a917_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.63.66] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 17:13:53 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2009 21:13:53.0491 (UTC) FILETIME=[DC6B2A30:01C9E7B4] Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:13:50 -0000 --_d4b05110-455a-485a-89b7-74056968a917_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=2C I felt the need to comment on par 3 of 2.2=2C "identification of subt= ag's type"=2C so am following Doug's example in creating a new heading. =20 From: Alexey Melnikov =20 Date: Sat=2C 06 Jun 2009 21:14:57 +0100 =20 I.=20 > 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the > subtag's type [is] possible=2C even if the content of the subtag itself i= s > unrecognized". >=20 > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. Would a cross-reference be enough? (A quick parenthetical list of section n= umbers)?? =20 I note that this issue is dealt with also in Section 2.1=2C paragraph 2 of = the draft at: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22 and http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.html#syntax : =20 "There are different types of subtag=2C each of which is distinguished by length=2C position in the tag=2C and content: each subtag's type can be recognized solely by these features. This makes it possible to extract and assign some semantic information to the subtags=2C even if the specific subtag values are not recognized." =20 2.1 then provides a list of possible subtag types indicating the order/synt= ax of each (par 3). Thus a cross-reference to 2.1 may be the only cross-re= ference needed: =20 "(see 2.1 above)" =20 (Also=2C I know I've asked this question before=2C but why is a variant sub= tag beginning with a digit listed as consisting of exactly one digit plus 3= alphanumerica characters in the list mentioned above?? (par 3): "variant =3D 5*8alphanum =3B registered variants / (DIGIT 3alphanum)"=2C=20 =20 and then just a paragraph down [par 5? or 4?] a variant beginning with a d= igit is described as having a length of 4-8 characters: "There is a subtlety in the ABNF production 'variant': a variant starting with a digit has a minimum length of four characters=2C while those starting with a letter have a minimum length of five characters." ??) =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com --_d4b05110-455a-485a-89b7-74056968a917_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=2C I felt the need to comment on par 3 of 2.2=2C "identification of subt= ag's type"=2C so am following Doug's example in creating a new heading.
 =3B

From: Alexey Melnikov <=3Balexey.melnikov at isode.com>=3B
Date: Sat=2C 06 Jun 2009 2= 1:14:57 +0100
 =3B
I. =3B
>=3B 11). Paragraph 3 of Secti= on 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the
>=3B subtag's type [is] = possible=2C even if the content of the subtag itself is
>=3B unrecogni= zed".
>=3B
>=3B Without a table summarizing the rules a reader n= eeds to infer them from
>=3B ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by readi= ng the rest of the document. A
>=3B compact text or table summarizing = the rules would improve the document.

Would a cross-reference be eno= ugh? =3B(A quick parenthetical list of section numbers)??
 =3B
I note that this issue is dealt with also in Section 2.1=2C paragraph 2 of = the draft at:
http://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-22
and
http://www.inter-locale.com/ID/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.html#synta= x
:
 =3B
"There are different types of subtag=2C each of which is distinguished
&= nbsp=3B =3B by length=2C position in the tag=2C and content: each subta= g's type can
 =3B =3B be recognized solely by these features.&nb= sp=3B This makes it possible to
 =3B =3B extract and assign some= semantic information to the subtags=2C even if
 =3B =3B the spe= cific subtag values are not recognized."
 =3B
2.1 then provides a list =3Bof possible subtag types indicating the ord= er/syntax of each (par 3). =3B Thus a cross-reference to 2.1 may be the= only cross-reference needed:
 =3B
"(see 2.1 above)"
 =3B
(Also=2C I know I've asked =3Bthis question before=2C but why is a vari= ant subtag beginning with a digit =3Blisted as consisting of =3Bexa= ctly one digit plus 3 alphanumerica =3Bcharacters in the list mentioned= above?? (par 3):
"variant =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3D 5*8alphanum&nb= sp=3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B registere= d variants
 =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B = =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B =3B / (DIGIT 3alphanum)"=2C=
 =3B
and then just a paragraph down [par 5? =3B or 4?] =3Ba variant begi= nning with a digit is =3Bdescribed as having a length of =3B4-8 cha= racters:
"There is a subtlety in the ABNF
 =3B =3B production 'variant': = a variant starting with a digit has a minimum
 =3B =3B length of= four characters=2C while those starting with a letter have a
 =3B&n= bsp=3B minimum length of five characters." =3B ??)
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
= --_d4b05110-455a-485a-89b7-74056968a917_-- From doug@ewellic.org Sun Jun 7 14:13:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8D03A6774 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.147, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id idlXTsBEuhzl for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.95]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BCB2028C106 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4186 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2009 21:14:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth04.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.95) with ESMTP; 07 Jun 2009 21:13:58 -0000 Message-ID: <86E865FA33C94B0195EC47954F0D93D0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:13:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:13:56 -0000 Can someone give an example scenario with example dates, to help me understand what the problem is? Remember that: 1. It isn't expected to be possible to tell, just by looking at a given version of the Registry, whether IANA has processed all of the changes submitted to them. 2. Modifications to existing records do not cause an update to the Added date, so the passage in 5.1 about a new File-Date record having "a later date than the record being inserted or modified" often does apply. 3. As stated previously, Michael and I usually batch the requests together before submitting them to IANA, even if they were originally submitted a few days apart or their review periods ended on different days for some reason. It would be very unusual for us to send IANA a few requests on Monday, a few more on Tuesday, and so on. 4. IANA usually tends to ignore the File-Date records attached to the replacement records anyway, and instead applies the date on which they process the changes and release the new Registry. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Sun Jun 7 14:27:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E73C03A6BEF for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WrkufCVDOLxw for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D090D3A6B06 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33772 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MDPta-00050g-7T; Sun, 07 Jun 2009 23:27:16 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 23:27:10 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value Thread-Index: AcnntrcsQcXJ/7+sdUeOycsz8CHwWw== In-Reply-To: <86E865FA33C94B0195EC47954F0D93D0@DGBP7M81> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MDPta-00050g-7T. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MDPta-00050g-7T 44e05e9753d7d2f353d40ca7782a289a Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:27:20 -0000 > Can someone give an example scenario with example dates, to help me > understand what the problem is? > > Remember that: > > 1. It isn't expected to be possible to tell, just by looking at a given > version of the Registry, whether IANA has processed all of the changes > submitted to them. > > 2. Modifications to existing records do not cause an update to the > Added date, so the passage in 5.1 about a new File-Date record having "a > later date than the record being inserted or modified" often does apply. > > 3. As stated previously, Michael and I usually batch the requests > together before submitting them to IANA, even if they were originally > submitted a few days apart or their review periods ended on different > days for some reason. It would be very unusual for us to send IANA a > few requests on Monday, a few more on Tuesday, and so on. > > 4. IANA usually tends to ignore the File-Date records attached to the > replacement records anyway, and instead applies the date on which they > process the changes and release the new Registry. I don't think there is any actual problem in current practice, just that the formal handling is not calling for this actual handling and leaves a hole open for the possible problem of not being formally "guaranteed" to be able to use the file-date alone to determine if a local copy is up-to-date or not. Plugging that hole seem to not change actual current practice, just to reinforce it. /kent k From doug@ewellic.org Sun Jun 7 14:41:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D9FB3A68AD for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.474 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.124, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mtjJabppnQxe for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A439A3A6AB3 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7886 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2009 21:41:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 07 Jun 2009 21:41:19 -0000 Message-ID: <71AE548E402D423DB2E6EC81CAFF9641@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:41:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:41:22 -0000 Kent Karlsson wrote: > I don't think there is any actual problem in current practice, just > that the formal handling is not calling for this actual handling and > leaves a hole open for the possible problem of not being formally > "guaranteed" to be able to use the file-date alone to determine if a > local copy is up-to-date or not. Plugging that hole seem to not change > actual current practice, just to reinforce it. You should always be able to use the File-Date to determine whether a local copy is up to date. A later revision of the Registry will always have an later File-Date than an earlier version, unless (a) somebody makes a mistake or (b) IANA generates two revisions in a single day. Both (a) and (b) are possible, but about equally unlikely. I'm glad our efforts to work out the big problems have been so successful that we have to resort to hypothetical cases like this to find flaws in the process. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Sun Jun 7 14:47:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A292F3A6BEF for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:47:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.656 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.930, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sv5kzsvi7gD4 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DFC183A68AD for ; Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3516 invoked from network); 7 Jun 2009 21:47:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth21.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.38) with ESMTP; 07 Jun 2009 21:47:13 -0000 Message-ID: <11ABD8C463BD4FE9A2681913CE28BB2D@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 15:47:12 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 21:47:10 -0000 CE Whitehead wrote: > (Also, I know I've asked this question before, but why is a variant > subtag beginning with a digit listed as consisting of exactly one > digit plus 3 alphanumerica characters in the list mentioned above?? > (par 3): > "variant = 5*8alphanum ; registered variants > / (DIGIT 3alphanum)", > > and then just a paragraph down [par 5? or 4?] a variant beginning > with a digit is described as having a length of 4-8 characters: > "There is a subtlety in the ABNF > production 'variant': a variant starting with a digit has a minimum > length of four characters, while those starting with a letter have > a minimum length of five characters." ??) The production 5*8alphanum already covers subtags of 5 to 8 characters that begin with a digit, does it not? -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 11:26:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1D23A67F8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:26:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H5M8-ykHFxgk for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4A6F3A6E02 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:26:48 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:26:47 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Alexey Melnikov , Kent Karlsson Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:26:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value Thread-Index: Acnniit24ApMtNRnR+2rZ4qj1X1QjwA3HxkA Message-ID: References: <4A2BE573.7040606@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2BE573.7040606@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:26:44 -0000 Sounds good to me. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ale= xey Melnikov Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 9:06 AM To: Kent Karlsson Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date val= ue Kent Karlsson wrote: >Den 2009-06-07 13.16, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > > =20 > >>I can see a couple of ways of making this clearer: >> >>1). Fix the process so that application of accepted changes with >>File-Date < registry's File-Date forces registry's File-Date to be >>updated (for example to the current date). This is my preferred >>resolution to this. >> >>2). Document how File-Date can and can't be used. In particular document >>that it can't be used for detecting missed changes. I really dislike >>that solution, but I mention it anyway. >> >>There might be other ways of addressing this that I've missed. >> =20 >> >Or, require that IANA changes the submitted File-Date to the date >IANA processes the given batch of changes actually applying them to the >registry and publishes the result, and also require that IANA processes at >most one batch of LSR changes per day (which I think you intended to inclu= de >as a requirement in order to achieve what you want, but did not state). > >This way would be easy and not require a test of "given File-Date < >registry's File-Date" which may easily be missed to be tested. Nor would i= t >be very restrictive, given that batches of LSR changes do not occur very >often. > =20 > Indeed, this works as well. >In the rare event that two (or more) batches come in on the same day, >they could either be merged into one batch (likely to have happened alread= y >before they get to IANA) or they could be strung out one per day. > =20 > Right. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 11:47:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799603A6D01 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:47:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.855 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.855 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.745, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzRbAmtDjLWp for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E200A3A6B5F for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:47:15 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ItvrKr23qMIE9g1Zt0ZMc3JEvtEAm2/IusuoetbssAOFHLq/oiXb4IRNS9USVhSM; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.206.127] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDjsP-0001AV-0a; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:47:21 -0400 Message-ID: <00b001c9e869$9121eea0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A2BA18A.7060808@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:47:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69687b94a6197113c539140116f8bb2f0a37350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.206.127 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:47:17 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 4:16 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value > > Section 3.1.2 in -22 says: > > > The first record in the registry is always the "File-Date" record. > > This record occurs only once in the file and contains a single field > > whose field-name is "File-Date". The field-body of this record > > contains a date (see Section 5.1) making it possible to easily > > recognize different versions of the registry. > > While this is an improvement, this didn't actually fully addressed my > initial issue (see below). ... Issue is now re-opened in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/43 Randy From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 12:19:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D84828C0E9 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uY7UVYrsSDFw for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 506A73A69D8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.62) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:55 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.62]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:55 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Kent Karlsson , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:53 -0700 Thread-Topic: On "code" in ISO standards Thread-Index: Acnm9GzjTjdZuuWO4kiMn8eSoNhp1QBc83bw Message-ID: References: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:19:55 -0000 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ken= t Karlsson > "Code" is what these items are called in the respective source standards. I'll start off by saying I'm have no qualms with the use of "code" in 4646b= is at present.=20 That said, Kent's claim is not generally true. While it's clear that there = is common usage of "code" to refer to individual coding identifiers, in ISO= coding standards "code" is usually formally defined as the complete coding= system. The use of plural in the title of ISO 639 does was not a reflectio= n of there being multiple identifiers / coded entities, but that there is m= ore than one scheme. (The authors of 639-2 were a little bit imprecise in d= efining terms, so at times it may seem like "code" is used to mean an indiv= idual ID. Unfortunately, ISO 15924 used 639-2 as a model and went the wrong= way, becoming the exception to the norm.) For instance, here are definitions from various standards (I find the wordi= ng from 2382-4 makes this clearest): ISO 639: 1988 language code: A set of symbols used to designate languages. ISO 639-2:1998 code: data representation in different forms according to a pre-established= set of rules language code: combination of characters used to represent a language or la= nguages ISO 2382-4:1999 code / coding scheme: a collection of rules that maps the elements of a fir= st set onto the elements of a second set code value / code element / code (deprecated in this sense): the result of = applying a code to an element of a coded set ISO 3166-3:1999 (same definitions as ISO 3166-1:1997) code: data transformation or data representation in different forms accordi= ng to pre-established rules [Adapted from ISO 5127-1:1983, 1.1.4-06] code element: result of applying a code to an element in a set of elements = to be coded country code: listing of country names with their representations by code e= lements ISO 639-1:2002 code: data transformed or represented in different forms according to a pre= -established set of rules code element: individual entry in a code ISO 639-3:2007 code: data transformed or represented in different forms according to a pre= -established set of rules code element: individual entry in a code table ISO 3166-1:2005 code: set of data transformed or represented in different forms according t= o a pre-established set of rules [ISO 5127:2001, 1.1.4-07] code element: the result of applying a code to an element of a coded set [I= SO/IEC 2382-4:1999, 04.02.04] NOTE 2 In this part of ISO 3166 a code elemen= t represents a country name. country code: listing of country names with their representations by code e= lements Peter From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 12:29:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 908123A6DA0 for ; 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Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:29:21 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:29:20 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , Kent Karlsson , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:29:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: On "code" in ISO standards Thread-Index: Acnm9GzjTjdZuuWO4kiMn8eSoNhp1QBc83bwAAGENqA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDDA0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:29:43 -0000 PiANCj4gPiAiQ29kZSIgaXMgd2hhdCB0aGVzZSBpdGVtcyBhcmUgY2FsbGVkIGluIHRoZSByZXNw ZWN0aXZlIHNvdXJjZQ0KPiBzdGFuZGFyZHMuDQo+IA0KPiBJJ2xsIHN0YXJ0IG9mZiBieSBzYXlp bmcgSSdtIGhhdmUgbm8gcXVhbG1zIHdpdGggdGhlIHVzZSBvZiAiY29kZSINCj4gaW4gNDY0NmJp cyBhdCBwcmVzZW50Lg0KDQpJJ2xsIHBvaW50IG91dCB0aGF0IHdlIGRlZmluZSB0aGUgd29yZCAn Y29kZScgaW4gNDY0NmJpcyAoYW5kIDQ2NDYsIGZvciB0aGF0IG1hdHRlcikgc3RyaWN0bHkgYXMg aW50ZXJuYWwgdGVybWlub2xvZ3kuIFdlIGRpZCBzbyB0byBkaXN0aW5ndWlzaCBpdGVtcyBmcm9t IHRoZSB1bmRlcmx5aW5nIHN0YW5kYXJkcyBmcm9tIGl0ZW1zIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBpbiB0 aGUgbWFueSBwbGFjZXMgaW4gdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IHdoZXJlICdjb2RlcycgZnJvbSBhIHN0YW5k YXJkIGFyZSBkaXNjdXNzZWQgaW4gcmVsYXRpb24gdG8gJ3N1YnRhZ3MnIGluIHRoZSByZWdpc3Ry eS4gSXQncyBhbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgZGlzdGluY3Rpb24gYW5kIG9uZSB0aGF0IHNob3VsZCBiZSBw cmVzZXJ2ZWQuIEluIGZhY3QsIEknbSBzbGlnaHRseSBpbmNyZWR1bG91cyBhYm91dCB0aGUgY29t bWVudC4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0K From cowan@ccil.org Mon Jun 8 12:35:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6378C28C186 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:35:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FbGY1cIAy9SY for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6051D28C192 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MDkcz-00081o-DU; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:35:29 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:35:29 -0400 To: Peter Constable Message-ID: <20090608193529.GD20171@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:35:26 -0000 Peter Constable scripsit: > I'll start off by saying I'm have no qualms with the use of "code" > in 4646bis at present. [details snipped] During the WG discussion of 4646, I proposed changing "code" to "code element" for conformity with ISO 639 and ISO 3166; however, that proposal failed to gain consensus. -- Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker cowan@ccil.org saying "No information items inside". http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Eve Maler From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 13:04:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E2E3A6A1E for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PnZAC0oNKbg3 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2A73A682A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.62) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:17 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.62]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:17 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:13 -0700 Thread-Topic: On "code" in ISO standards Thread-Index: Acnm9GzjTjdZuuWO4kiMn8eSoNhp1QBc83bwAAGENqAAAWHtoA== Message-ID: References: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDDA0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDDA0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:04:13 -0000 V2l0aCBteSBjb21tZW50PyANCg0KSSB3YXMgbWVyZWx5IGNvbW1lbnRpbmcgb24gS2VudCdzIHN1 Z2dlc3Rpb24gdGhhdCBvdXIgdXNlIGlzIGRlcml2ZWQgZnJvbSBJU08gc3RhbmRhcmRzLiBZb3Vy IGNsYXJpZmljYXRpb24gbWFrZXMgaXQgY2xlYXIgdGhhdCBvdXIgdXNlIHdhcyBkZWZpbml0ZWx5 IG5vdCBkZXJpdmVkIGZyb20gSVNPIHN0YW5kYXJkcywgYW5kIHNvIGlzIG5vdCBpbmNvbXBhdGli bGUgd2l0aCBteSBjb21tZW50Lg0KDQoNClBldGVyDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0t LS0tDQpGcm9tOiBQaGlsbGlwcywgQWRkaXNvbiBbbWFpbHRvOmFkZGlzb25AYW1hem9uLmNvbV0g DQpTZW50OiBNb25kYXksIEp1bmUgMDgsIDIwMDkgMTI6MjkgUE0NClRvOiBQZXRlciBDb25zdGFi bGU7IEtlbnQgS2FybHNzb247IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KU3ViamVjdDogUkU6IE9uICJj b2RlIiBpbiBJU08gc3RhbmRhcmRzDQoNCj4gSW4gZmFjdCwgSSdtIHNsaWdodGx5IGluY3JlZHVs b3VzIGFib3V0IHRoZSBjb21tZW50Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQo= From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 13:05:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B20313A6B95 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rC4aiDiGdawr for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A64843A6A21 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:22 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,326,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="278986605" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jun 2009 20:05:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n58K5PoO005926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:05:27 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:12 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: On "code" in ISO standards Thread-Index: Acnm9GzjTjdZuuWO4kiMn8eSoNhp1QBc83bwAAGENqAAAWHtoAAAIpSg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDE37@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDDA0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:05:23 -0000 PiBXaXRoIG15IGNvbW1lbnQ/DQoNCk5vLCB3aXRoIHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbCBjb21tZW50Lg0KDQpB ZGRpc29uDQo= From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Jun 8 13:20:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDAD73A6D65 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.206 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.206 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.226, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5aQ6b2ET8hrY for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157953A6CCF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.12.235] (92.40.12.235.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.12.235]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:20:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2D7273.5040705@isode.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:20:03 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Doug Ewell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #40: AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:20:49 -0000 > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> # 40: The new text is better, but it doesn't specify any dealine >> (as other cases do). If the WG and Expert Reviewers think that >> this is Ok, then it is Ok with me. > > I think this is expected to be such a rare and extraordinary > situation, and we have so little experience (i.e. none) petitioning > ISO 3166/RA in this way, that the vagueness seems justified and > harmless. Any number of days we specify is likely to be as arbitrary > as any other. Right. What I had in mind is that the default action is going to be done after the period expires, but not before. > Remember that the new ISO 3166-1 rule about not reusing code elements > for 50 years should greatly reduce or eliminate the stated scenario of > "an ISO 3166-1 code that is blocked from registration by an existing > subtag." > > This is a corner-of-the-corner case, and as one of the Designated > Experts likely to be caught in the middle of the whole scenario should > it ever occur, I don't see a problem here. This is not a big deal, I am Ok leaving the current text as is. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Jun 8 13:31:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905AE3A6D97 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:31:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.194 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.194 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.214, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JAmp+qpICQFV for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 788943A6BFC for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.12.235] (92.40.12.235.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.12.235]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:31:12 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2D74EA.5070903@isode.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:30:34 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Doug Ewell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:31:09 -0000 >Sorry, there is no ticket for this yet, but at least this e-mail >deals with only one issue. > >Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >>>>>At the time this document was created, there were no >>>>>examples of this kind of subtag and future >>>>>registrations of this type are discouraged: primary >>>>>languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for registration >>>>>with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ >>>>>RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language >>>>>Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA. >>>>> >>>>This might be a big deal, so this might actually require >>>>wider review, such as IETF LC. >>> >>>What is a big deal? Why would an IETF LC be appropriate for this? >> >>To alert IAB and other interested parties about the situation. > >Huh? > >Someone wants to register a language subtag for (say) Loxian and >submits a proposal form to ietf-languages. The Language >Subtag Reviewer, or designee, submits a proposal to ISO >639/RA-JAC. That body consults with Linguist List, and after >due process decides not to assign a code element. The >original requester makes a convincing case to ietf-languages >that the subtag is justified. The Reviewer and group "closely >scrutinize" the request and decide to assign the subtag. > > >Why would this matter deserve special attention by the Internet Architecture >Board? Who are the "other interested parties" who need to review >this? >The tag "i-enochian" was registered in 2002. If done under >4646 or 4646bis, it would have been the primary language >subtag "enochian" instead. As I recall, neither the IAB nor >"other interested parties" were specially alerted. What >problems did this cause? Doug, this suggestion wasn't because of my mistrust to Language Tag Reviewers, or anything like this. I am just relaying the sentiment expressed by the Apps Team reviewer. After thinking more about this, I think suggesting that interested parties should subscribe to the mailing list where reviews take place and closing this part of the issue as "no change" would be just fine. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Jun 8 13:52:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6493A6D26 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.184 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.184 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.204, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X9I+miTEwR4V for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A643A6C1A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.12.235] (92.40.12.235.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.12.235]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:52:19 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2D79D7.90903@isode.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:51:35 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: LTRU Working Group References: <4A2BA18A.7060808@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2BA18A.7060808@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:52:19 -0000 Doug Ewell wrote: > Can someone give an example scenario with example dates, to help me > understand what the problem is? A registrations request is sent on date T1 and approved by you on date T2. You send a message to IANA saying that it was approved, the message is eaten by IANA's antispam engine (or whatever). Another request approved on date T3 (T3 > T2) is integrated to the registry, IANA updates the registry date to be T3. Then later on the first request is discovered to be lost and resend. If IANA is to act according to the procedure as described in 4646bis right now, IANA will not change the registry date, because T2 < T3 (== the registry date) > Remember that: > > > 1. It isn't expected to be possible to tell, just by looking at a > given version of the Registry, > whether IANA has processed all of the changes submitted to them. This is fine. Note, that this observation is not stated anywhere in the document. > 2. Modifications to existing records do not cause an update to the > Added date, Right. > so the passage > in 5.1 about a new File-Date record having "a later date than the > record being inserted or modified" > often does apply. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. This probably means that this sentence is already ambiguous. > 3. As stated previously, Michael and I usually batch the requests > together before submitting > them to IANA, even if they were originally submitted a few days apart > or their review periods > ended on different days for some reason. It would be very unusual for > us to send IANA a few > requests on Monday, a few more on Tuesday, and so on. I don't see a problem with that. > 4. IANA usually tends to ignore the File-Date records attached to the > replacement records anyway, > and instead applies the date on which they process the changes and > release the new Registry. I agree that this is what IANA should do. In fact as per recent discussion I think IANA MUST always do that. But IANA is violating the procedure described in 4646bis as written. So I am basically asking to align the document with the current procedure Michael/you and IANA are already using. ================ In another message Doug Ewell wrote: > Kent Karlsson wrote: > >>I don't think there is any actual problem in current practice, just >>that the formal handling is not calling for this actual handling >>and leaves a hole open for the possible problem of not being >>formally "guaranteed" to be able to use the file-date alone >>to determine if a local copy is up-to-date or not. >>Plugging that hole seem to not change actual current practice, >>just to reinforce it. > > You should always be able to use the File-Date to determine whether a > local copy is up to date. > A later revision of the Registry will always have an later File-Date > than an earlier version, > unless (a) somebody makes a mistake or (b) IANA generates two > revisions in a single day. > Both (a) and (b) are possible, but about equally unlikely. I agree that (a) is unlikely. Even if (b) is possible, I think it is Ok stating this explicitly in the document. > I'm glad our efforts to work out the big problems have been so > successful that we have to resort > to hypothetical cases like this to find flaws in the process. From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 13:57:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 827423A6AC4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g9YHTUgZkSvb for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE0A83A69E2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.47) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:10 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.47]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:09 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Alexey Melnikov , Doug Ewell Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) Thread-Index: AcnoeDK5boWHBjP9TxmAojtXsq4/lgAA0BJw Message-ID: References: <4A2D74EA.5070903@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2D74EA.5070903@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:57:05 -0000 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ale= xey Melnikov > After thinking more about this, I think suggesting that interested=20 > parties should subscribe to the mailing list where reviews take place=20 > and closing this part of the issue as "no change" would be just fine. I was waiting for Randy to open a ticket before commenting: the process in = this regard is essentially unchanged since RFC 1766, and there's not been a= ny problem so far. So, no change sounds OK with me. Peter From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Jun 8 14:23:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ADF93A682D for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:23:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.174 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.174 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.194, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M3eYhWaObp9g for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E5343A67F6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.12.235] (92.40.12.235.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.12.235]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:23:09 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2D810B.7010106@isode.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:22:19 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: CE Whitehead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:23:06 -0000 > Hi, I felt the need to comment on par 3 of 2.2, "identification of > subtag's type", so am following Doug's example in creating a new heading. > > From: Alexey Melnikov > Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:14:57 +0100 > > I. > > 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the > > subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is > > unrecognized". > > > > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. > > Would a cross-reference be enough? (A quick parenthetical list of > section numbers)?? Yes! From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Jun 8 14:24:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB0E3A6CF6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:24:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.165 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.165 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.815, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b+DBYiVnxptn for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0E73A69DD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.12.235] (92.40.12.235.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.12.235]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:24:33 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2D8168.7030804@isode.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:23:52 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: CE Whitehead MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:24:30 -0000 > (Also, I know I've asked this question before, but why is a variant > subtag beginning with a digit listed as consisting of exactly one > digit plus 3 alphanumerica characters in the list mentioned above?? > (par 3): > "variant = 5*8alphanum ; registered variants > / (DIGIT 3alphanum)", > > and then just a paragraph down [par 5? or 4?] a variant beginning > with a digit is described as having a length of 4-8 characters: > "There is a subtlety in the ABNF > production 'variant': a variant starting with a digit has a minimum > length of four characters, While this is true, I think deleting the word "minimum" here would fix the problem. > while those starting with a letter have a > minimum length of five characters." ??) > From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 14:28:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49A373A6B5F for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:28:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -107.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hd2Uuq1TMCnG for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55CA33A682D for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,326,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="279038868" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jun 2009 21:28:47 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n58LSk17015821 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:28:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:28:46 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Alexey Melnikov , CE Whitehead Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:28:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) Thread-Index: Acnof5I3b6a3AjV7Rvm61THJJC08VAAABstQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDFBD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2D8168.7030804@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2D8168.7030804@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:28:43 -0000 PiA+DQo+ID4gYW5kIHRoZW4ganVzdCBhIHBhcmFncmFwaCBkb3duIFtwYXIgNT8gIG9yIDQ/XSBh IHZhcmlhbnQNCj4gYmVnaW5uaW5nDQo+ID4gd2l0aCBhIGRpZ2l0IGlzIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBhcyBo YXZpbmcgYSBsZW5ndGggb2YgNC04IGNoYXJhY3RlcnM6DQo+ID4gIlRoZXJlIGlzIGEgc3VidGxl dHkgaW4gdGhlIEFCTkYNCj4gPiAgICBwcm9kdWN0aW9uICd2YXJpYW50JzogYSB2YXJpYW50IHN0 YXJ0aW5nIHdpdGggYSBkaWdpdCBoYXMgYQ0KPiBtaW5pbXVtDQo+ID4gICAgbGVuZ3RoIG9mIGZv dXIgY2hhcmFjdGVycywNCj4gDQo+IFdoaWxlIHRoaXMgaXMgdHJ1ZSwgSSB0aGluayBkZWxldGlu ZyB0aGUgd29yZCAibWluaW11bSIgaGVyZSB3b3VsZA0KPiBmaXgNCj4gdGhlIHByb2JsZW0uDQo+ IA0KDQpOby4gSXQgd291bGQgYmUgd3JvbmcuIA0KDQpBIHJlcXVlc3RlZCB2YXJpYW50IHN1YnRh ZyBzdGFydGluZyB3aXRoIGEgZGlnaXQgbWF5IGJlIHVwIHRvIGVpZ2h0IGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgKGxl dHRlcnMgb3IgZGlnaXRzKSBsb25nLiBUaGV5IGNhbiBiZSBhcyBzaG9ydCBhcyBmb3VyIGNoYXJh Y3RlcnMuIEEgcmVxdWVzdCBmb3IgYSBzdWJ0YWcgc3RhcnRpbmcgd2l0aCBhIGxldHRlciBtdXN0 IGJlIGF0IGxlYXN0IGZpdmUgaW4gbGVuZ3RoLiBSZW1vdmluZyB0aGUgd29yZCAibWluaW11bSIg d291bGQgbWFrZSBpdCBtZWFuIHRoYXQgYSB2YXJpYW50IHN0YXJ0aW5nIHdpdGggYSBkaWdpdCBj b3VsZCBvbmx5IGJlIGZvdXIgY2hhcmFjdGVycyBsb25nLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQo= From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Mon Jun 8 15:10:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9B043A6B58 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.220, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hOYdJ5mYo0Dr for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE78A3A67C1 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.12.235] (92.40.12.235.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.12.235]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:10:29 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:09:48 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: LTRU Working Group References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:10:27 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> This is the first batch. I received a fairly long list of comments >> and still deciding what to do with the rest. > > Sorry for the delay. This is the second batch. There would also be a > third (and the last) batch, with about 6 issues. Actually the last batch is down to 1 issue, but it is more serious. 14). Language Tag validity verification requires applications to keep up-to-date copies of the Language Tag registry. Such applications might be designed to automatically fetch new versions of the registry. This has three problems: I). IANA is generally not happy about applications automatically downloading registries, unless data is located in DNS. This is primarily to scaling concerns. II). There is also the issue of when application should be fetching the updated registry. I.e. what is the mechanism(s) for determining when to fetch. III). The registry format is not designed for figuring out the minimal list of changes between any 2 versions. For example there is no way of only fetching changes since a given File-Date value. BTW, are people aware of implementations that try to download Language Tag registry automatically? While I don't expect this issue to be fully fixed at such a late stage, it needs to be discussed in the document. Some thoughts about what can be said on the topic: Regarding I): application should be advised against frequent polling of the registry. For example: The registries specified in this document are not suitable for applications that require real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. It might be nice to have the File-Date value available as a separate short piece of data (a separate web page on IANA's website, a thing in DNS, etc. But even with existing registry format it might be possible to minimize load on IANA's website by describing how HTTP/1.1 features can be used to only download necessary information, such as downloading the beginning of the registry which contains the File-Date field. Regarding II): I think this needs some advice on which operations need and which don't need fetching of the registry. Also this might mention that any application keeping a copy of the registry needs to preserve the File-Date value in some form. Regarding III): I think it is Ok for now to explicitly acknowledge that this is an issue. It might also be worth discussing how the registry format facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 15:54:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6A23A69D4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.932 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.932 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PCj7d1EH2OP6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 154BB3A69AD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:54:23 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,326,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="196805843" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Jun 2009 22:54:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n58MsKna020172 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:54:20 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:41 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:53:39 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review Thread-Index: AcnohgR7UnStbOavRDSDoLbTIyjGUgAAU3kQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:54:24 -0000 SSB0aGluayB0aGlzIGlzIGEgcG90ZW50aWFsbHkgc2VyaW91cyBwcm9ibGVtLCBhbHRob3VnaCB3 ZSBkaWQgYWRkcmVzcyBpdCBkdXJpbmcgZG9jdW1lbnQgZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQgKG9mIFJGQyA0NjQ2 KS4gU29tZSBvZiB0aGUgY2hhbmdlcyBpbiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50IGhhdmUgd2F0ZXJlZCBkb3du IHRoZSB3YXkgd2UgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGl0IGluIHRoYXQgZG9jdW1lbnQuIFRoZXJlIGlzIGFsc28g YSBnZW5lcmFsIHJlY29nbml0aW9uIHRoYXQgbWVjaGFuaWNhbGx5IHJldHJpZXZpbmcgdGhlIHJl 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d29ydGggZGlzY3Vzc2luZyBob3cgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IGZvcm1hdA0KPiBmYWNpbGl0YXRlcyAi ZGlmZmluZyIgMiB2ZXJzaW9ucyBvZiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkuDQoNCkl0J3MgcG9zc2libGUsIGFs dGhvdWdoIG9uY2UgeW91J3ZlIHBhcnNlZCB0aGUgbmV3IHJlZ2lzdHJ5LCB0aGUgZGlmZiBkb2Vz bid0IG1hdHRlciBzbyBtdWNoLiBOb3RlIHRoYXQgc3RhYmlsaXR5IHJ1bGVzIGdlbmVyYWxseSBw cmV2ZW50IGJyZWFraW5nIGNoYW5nZXMuDQoNCkFkZGlzb24NCg== From cowan@ccil.org Mon Jun 8 16:12:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50C6D28C15A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qY+RenZv2MaV for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6984128C133 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MDo1U-0006tU-7b; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:13:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:13:00 -0400 To: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: <20090608231300.GF20171@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:12:56 -0000 Alexey Melnikov scripsit: > While I don't expect this issue [of excessive downloads] to be fully > fixed at such a late stage, "Late stage" is right. This registry has been available for download since November 2005, the approval date of RFC 4646 (then known as 3066bis). The issue was raised then and resolved; why should it be reraised now? It's true that the 4646bis registry will be much larger than the 4646 one, but available bandwidth has increased too. If IANA is concerned about abuse of their resources, let them set up authorized mirrors, or impose controls on download, or do something else administrative. -- John Cowan http://ccil.org/~cowan Micropayment advocates mistakenly believe that efficient allocation of resources is the purpose of markets. Efficiency is a byproduct of market systems, not their goal. The reasons markets work are not because users have embraced efficiency but because markets are the best place to allow users to maximize their preferences, and very often their preferences are not for conservation of cheap resources. --Clay Shirkey From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 18:40:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 027563A6823 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:40:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.144, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7jIrlUhPTPD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 462C63A6A07 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:40:30 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=WAcLVi5lZ0iaF8zsy6o1400WhYYB9pE7fJ1HVAA96c86zujFZ9jDTJ1vZwyPMDbz; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqKJ-0005lK-MJ for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:40:35 -0400 Message-ID: <000601c9e8a3$4caba380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:40:40 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69687bb92deef1b0e5680da0783adbe23d63350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:40:31 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 8). Section 1 currently says: > > This document replaces [RFC4646], which replaced [RFC3066] and its > predecessor [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see > Section 8. > > RFC 4646 used to say: > > This document, in combination with [RFC4647], replaces [RFC3066], > which replaced [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, > see Section 8. > > I think it would be more correct for 4646bis to say: > > This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination > with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. > For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. This is now in the tracker as issue #55. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/55 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 18:43:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8422B3A6C08 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:43:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.130, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t2IdsiQ-7Wdb for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59273A6A07 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:43:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=BU4oonE5GJAv8eT4PUM3annpBsxJZrSTh6vN/QbUQDK3lJyTyWRpLq0eTun5l7Gl; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqNU-00067x-I6 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:43:54 -0400 Message-ID: <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:44:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69684fe3d6a57ed3e57afe202e1b527dc2a0350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:43:55 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete > because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that > describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid > elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the > reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF > comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" > production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and > "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are > found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. ... This is now in the tracker as issue #56. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/56 Randy From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 18:43:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30D8F3A6DEA for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:43:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.051 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.051 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.059, BAYES_05=-1.11] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lTaxEQri2SVU for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AE34B3A6DD7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31740 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 01:43:59 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth22.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.44) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 01:43:58 -0000 Message-ID: <1B30099E669F4CE8B6F3B239CD343456@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A2D74EA.5070903@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:43:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:43:59 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Doug, this suggestion wasn't because of my mistrust to Language Tag > Reviewers, or anything like this. I am just relaying the sentiment > expressed by the Apps Team reviewer. I understand that. My "Huh's" and "Why's" were not directed at you, but at the reviewer behind the curtain who asked the question. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 18:47:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BA0D28C176 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:47:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.481 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.481 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.118, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rG-sGMq7YGqX for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB4153A6AB0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:47:31 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=VFzK5xafyWVNgAy1BsR3MH0I/ABpR05Ifxnmn+qFGk1KDO0cKIqsdG1n2ylydKa8; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqR7-0003zX-5i for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:47:37 -0400 Message-ID: <001001c9e8a4$4992ae40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:47:45 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696884b4059fdb32e8133514346c836e4545350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:47:32 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 10). In Section 2.2 > > > o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by > > hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- > > Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in > > single quotes ('Hant'). > > > > o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which > > are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an > > [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script > > subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this > > document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). > > These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate > categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". > Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? ... This is now filed as ticket #57. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/57 Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 18:50:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6884A28C176 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:50:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.491 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.491 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.108, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QhewT+EIMfuW for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:50:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A524328C191 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:50:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=PbdvPxKdbprgw7okCbwuVggcrmPpyfCjsCHm22V+ydxBj9Sfeuu4fMcyrOrevWfb; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqUF-0001zv-5J for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:50:51 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:50:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69686c700207d3e1036864d4d7c00bf9ae9b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtag type (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:50:46 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the > subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is > unrecognized". > > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. ... Added as issue #58. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/58 Randy From cowan@ccil.org Mon Jun 8 18:54:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153AA3A6923 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:54:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36lCUU8nJzeV for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 424C73A687A for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:54:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqXV-0006Lo-7F; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:54:13 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:54:13 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20090609015413.GA21239@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000601c9e8a3$4caba380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000601c9e8a3$4caba380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:54:09 -0000 Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination > > with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. > > For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. This change is excessively finicky, but we may as well do it. -- BALIN FUNDINUL UZBAD KHAZADDUMU cowan@ccil.org BALIN SON OF FUNDIN LORD OF KHAZAD-DUM http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From cowan@ccil.org Mon Jun 8 18:55:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D423A6AC7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6+bafqAhRVPf for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FA483A6923 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqYv-0006Wv-Br; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:55:41 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:55:41 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20090609015541.GB21239@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:55:37 -0000 Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete > > because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that > > describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid > > elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the > > reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF > > comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" > > production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and > > "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are > > found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. > ... This complaint should have been raised at RFC 4646 last call, and some parts of it, arguably, at RFC 1766 last call. It is very-late-stage extra work and the WG should reject it. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to [Sam], a grey-clad moving hill. Fear and wonder, maybe, enlarged him in the hobbit's eyes, but the Mumak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live still in latter days are but memories of his girth and his majesty. --"Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 18:55:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2ED28C193 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:55:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.873 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.134, BAYES_20=-0.74, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HFJ9KwbYAlTs for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 693123A6AFD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 32283 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 01:55:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 01:55:46 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:55:45 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:55:43 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > During the WG discussion of 4646, I proposed changing "code" to "code > element" for conformity with ISO 639 and ISO 3166; however, that > proposal failed to gain consensus. I don't remember what my opinion was at the time, if any, but I would support such a proposal today. (Which is not the same as saying, "Let's reopen the document and change 2,000 occurrences of a term.") It's a shame we don't have the convenient French terms "code" and "codet" at our disposal. "Code element," while correct, sounds stilted and awkward. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 18:56:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9271B28C176 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HMqvPACByJmH for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B60BD3A6923 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:34 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=KoTDwg1c9vQb++aSI4xVIhYnJvI1mXFg4HDpEXPBLwttTexI66CCB/j4RuTfXMsh; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqZs-00034E-3B for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:56:40 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69688928f78d2af8e1f397c512b94c5b0b4d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:56:35 -0000 Hi - Note well that there are two very distinct issues in Apps #12. This thread is the first of the two. PLEASE do not confuse them in your followups! > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review .... > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- > > Latn" valid. > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. ... This is filed as issue #59 in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/59 Randy From cowan@ccil.org Mon Jun 8 18:56:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F0A28C19B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g5jd7GsZWsDp for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D7C28C196 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqZu-0006bf-DF; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:56:42 -0400 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:56:42 -0400 To: Randy Presuhn Message-ID: <20090609015642.GC21239@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtag type (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:56:38 -0000 Randy Presuhn scripsit: > > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. The intention of RFCs, especially a complex one like this, is not to make the document "accessible" to those who cannot be bothered to read it. This is extra unnecessary work, and the WG should refuse it. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan I must confess that I have very little notion of what [s. 4 of the British Trade Marks Act, 1938] is intended to convey, and particularly the sentence of 253 words, as I make them, which constitutes sub-section 1. I doubt if the entire statute book could be successfully searched for a sentence of equal length which is of more fuliginous obscurity. --MacKinnon LJ, 1940 From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 19:00:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD843A6AFD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:00:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.093, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7wTWHvM5ywdG for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 221F53A6AAA for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:00:25 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Qvoh+zkcZUIvoxH3fk7sPQd0emnZ/UN0NI+cuECMgJUeTPrz+OUPkEqZ8UQNp8YW; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqda-00030x-C6 for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:00:30 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:00:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696804275938cc4ea7c6c7e05e7662c88d48350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:00:29 -0000 Hi - Please note that this is the second half of apps review comment #12. Please do not confuse it with the first half of that same comment. > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- > > Latn" valid. > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, > such as IETF LC. ... This is issue #60 in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/60 Randy From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 19:02:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0DD28C194 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.787 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.787 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.811, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xROaRAC8lyvP for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 088673A6AFD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 25665 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 02:02:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 02:02:53 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:02:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:02:56 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > A registrations request is sent on date T1 and approved by you on date > T2. You send a message to IANA saying that it was approved, the > message is eaten by IANA's antispam engine (or whatever). Another > request approved on date T3 (T3 > T2) is integrated to the registry, > IANA updates the registry date to be T3. > Then later on the first request is discovered to be lost and resend. > If IANA is to act according to the procedure as described in 4646bis > right now, IANA will not change the registry date, because T2 < T3 (== > the registry date) I understand now. What IANA would actually do in this case is apply a File-Date of T4 (= "later on") and all would be well. But this isn't what the draft says they would do. >> so the passage in 5.1 about a new File-Date record having "a later >> date than the record being inserted or modified" often does apply. > > I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. This probably > means that this sentence is already ambiguous. You're right. The passage says that in your example above, IANA would apply T3 (again) instead of T2. Both would be wrong. >> 4. IANA usually tends to ignore the File-Date records attached to the >> replacement records anyway, and instead applies the date on which >> they process the changes and release the new Registry. > > I agree that this is what IANA should do. In fact as per recent > discussion I think IANA MUST always do that. But IANA is violating the > procedure described in 4646bis as written. > > So I am basically asking to align the document with the current > procedure Michael/you and IANA are already using. I understand and agree. > In another message Doug Ewell wrote: > >> You should always be able to use the File-Date to determine whether a >> local copy is up to date. A later revision of the Registry will >> always have an later File-Date than an earlier version, unless (a) >> somebody makes a mistake or (b) IANA generates two revisions in a >> single day. Both (a) and (b) are possible, but about equally >> unlikely. > > I agree that (a) is unlikely. Even if (b) is possible, I think it is > Ok stating this explicitly in the document. Something like "IANA MUST process only one batch per day, to avoid File-Date ambiguity problems"? -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 19:03:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D2CA3A6DF5 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.512 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.512 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YrrkBoxjfQIG for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 486F23A6AFD for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:03:10 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=fyGq7WsMBnWNrAs2Ej21l0xwEXmmOvZaSmSHswgFJ2Stkzxz7pwabWxF1x21VOYH; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDqgF-0000nJ-5h for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:03:15 -0400 Message-ID: <002401c9e8a6$78aba5e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:03:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696831c2b7b57003fdc998f71002eba18b65350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata (Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:03:11 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 13). In Section 3.5: > > > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable > > and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts > > to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry > > itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions > > in Section 3.4. > > Suggested replacement for the paragraph: > > The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be > stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are > permitted with adequate justification. However, addition > of translations or transliterations are not considered > sufficient justification for corrections or updates. > > Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is > trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. This is filed as report #61 in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/61 Randy From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 19:10:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3AE63A68A2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.868 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.868 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.730, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LEhMQ1IdktWz for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C89F03A6BE8 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 693 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 02:10:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.181) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 02:10:38 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:10:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:10:33 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > BTW, are people aware of implementations that try to download Language > Tag registry automatically? I've written one as an experiment. I don't think anyone will ever write, say, a Web browser that hits the Registry every time a page is loaded, or even on program startup. The performance penalty on the app would be substantial. Only a dedicated language tag validation tool would even conceivably have the need to do such a thing, and there will never be many of those. > Regarding I): application should be advised against frequent polling > of the registry. For example: I thought we said that already. > It might also be worth discussing how the registry format facilitates > "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. I don't understand why anyone would want to do that, except of course for someone reviewing our work right now. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 19:18:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E47F3A6C32 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:18:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.663, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eKforkcFIXwm for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 86E063A68A2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:18:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13831 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 02:18:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth14.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.39) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 02:18:11 -0000 Message-ID: <2601494A510E400ABD0B381CF67AA982@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:18:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:18:07 -0000 John Cowan wrote: > This change is excessively finicky, but we may as well do it. +1 -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 19:19:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EB63A68A2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:19:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.99 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.608, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iKS2tXNy63BG for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 842873A6866 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 316 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 02:19:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.31) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 02:19:57 -0000 Message-ID: <1F6BE0F04C9143BAB68EADEAAF950CB4@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:19:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:19:53 -0000 "Phillips, Addison" replied to Alexey: >>> "There is a subtlety in the ABNF production 'variant': a variant >>> starting with a digit has a minimum length of four characters, >> >> While this is true, I think deleting the word "minimum" here would >> fix the problem. > > No. It would be wrong. > > A requested variant subtag starting with a digit may be up to eight > characters (letters or digits) long. They can be as short as four > characters. A request for a subtag starting with a letter must be at > least five in length. Removing the word "minimum" would make it mean > that a variant starting with a digit could only be four characters > long. We already have three registered variants (1606nict, 1694acad, 1959acad) which demonstrate that 4 characters is only the minimum. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 19:41:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CD63A67E7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:41:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.518 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.518 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.081, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r1Mv-afMkTPG for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6694B3A63CB for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:41:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=QGFNb1AViSuq2fdSJojvs+PJ1XdHhycO2xkr1BoNqp35tnXofkLIa8PmgvpcZqck; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDrH8-0004gQ-PN for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:41:23 -0400 Message-ID: <007101c9e8ab$cc04fb60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000601c9e8a3$4caba380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:41:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696897148235f011adfcc34c6195b6804521350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:41:18 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 8). Section 1 currently says: > > This document replaces [RFC4646], which replaced [RFC3066] and its > predecessor [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see > Section 8. > > RFC 4646 used to say: > > This document, in combination with [RFC4647], replaces [RFC3066], > which replaced [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, > see Section 8. > > I think it would be more correct for 4646bis to say: > > This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination > with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. > For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. As a technical contributor, I have no objection to this proposed change. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 19:50:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7DF03A67F6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.223 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.223 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.224, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X6JyEJrAqeua for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E8463A67AF for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:50:13 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Gz2vWNmdVW7IrqijM5gCbyjpu1VYn+8zJBcHPJOV1tNLqEAU6X2a4Q2e4fAAYXYX; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDrPm-0005cU-RK for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:50:19 -0400 Message-ID: <007801c9e8ad$0bbd2060$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <002401c9e8a6$78aba5e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:50:26 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968d69e39669a82b75aa345fb74f19ce807350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:50:14 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 13). In Section 3.5: > > > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable > > and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts > > to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry > > itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions > > in Section 3.4. > > Suggested replacement for the paragraph: > > The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be > stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are > permitted with adequate justification. However, addition > of translations or transliterations are not considered > sufficient justification for corrections or updates. > > Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is > trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. As a technical contributor... While I recognized that the proposed text is well-meant, I cannot support it. It introduces a technical change to what the WG had agreed. It changes advice ("probably frowned upon") into a prohibition ("are not considered sufficient"). Furthermore, I would argue that the use of MAY is in this case correct - it's used to describe an optional activity, and those taking part in or relying on this procedure must account for both the possibility that the action can occur, and the possibility that it might not occur. Consequently, I do not agree with making the proposed change. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 20:00:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C0F63A6864 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:00:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CgQtgkpvIMmj for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAE693A63CB for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:00:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=b1UYklFrOCfMJecXXb6ye4QTrCIOE71pweBxiUa6S376FNk3FeGd+V+j47oeg6aP; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDrZd-0005di-6m for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:00:29 -0400 Message-ID: <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:00:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968db56630a047cc5f9180ae7456a9fd42d350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:00:24 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete > because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that > describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid > elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the > reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF > comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" > production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and > "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are > found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. As a technical contributor... I think adding this additional material to the ABNF would muddy the distinctions spelled out in 2.2.9. Also, all the relevant elaborations are in the next (i.e. 2.2.*) sub-section, so it's not as though the reader is left in suspense for any great length of time. Consequently, I do not think that it would be helpful to make this change. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 20:21:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ED353A6965 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.515 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.515 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t-01a6fhtnmg for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51F113A68F9 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=qqEGh/NsqY9my36cQzcibIYrdMOnYp71my9Nqn+BMxQvLe9TpIj4O/ZhJfyXldeB; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDru8-00088O-Nh for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:21:40 -0400 Message-ID: <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001001c9e8a4$4992ae40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:21:48 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69682a2585187bfb2ffaa391afd871c9745a350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:21:36 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 10). In Section 2.2 > > > o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by > > hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- > > Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in > > single quotes ('Hant'). > > > > o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which > > are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an > > [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script > > subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this > > document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). > > These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate > categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". > Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? ... As a technical contributor... Yes. The claim that "code" is a subset of "subtag" is in my opinion incorrect. The various "source" standards we use define a whole bunch of strings, which they sometimes refer to as "codes" and sometimes as "code elements". For sanity, and with no loss of clarity, we refer to those individual strings as "codes." The Language Subtag Registry contains information corresponding to specific subtags. The strings used to encode them happen to be the same as the strings used for some codes in those source standards. Maintaining the distinction is important, particularly in cases where the source standard (e.g., through re-assignment) can potentially diverge from the registry's usage of a particular string. Consequently, I think the document should be left as it is in this regard. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 20:28:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 078A33A69EA for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:28:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8t9hLGDqkugv for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E4E33A682E for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:28:03 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=g3PgJyfdqUpzpdL1bRhc59V0znWsrxweYoPnXOpserDebr6W16w+0y5XgG8p/fdV; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDs0P-0003vB-1q for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:28:09 -0400 Message-ID: <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:28:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696874cc7e42a5238498ec257b00756e77e9350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:28:09 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the > subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is > unrecognized". > > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. As a technical contributor... My first preference would be to make no change here, out of concern that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors. If we MUST make a change, rather that adding more text or a table, my preference would be to simply delete "These make identification of the subtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. " The rest of the paragraph still says what needs to be said. Randy From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 20:44:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68F6C3A69E6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:44:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tYMi3wpv9oR2 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0103A69B9 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:44:24 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,328,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="196938797" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 03:44:29 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n593iSPC022926 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:44:29 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:44:28 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:44:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) Thread-Index: AcnoslTfsawcnI+2RH6oy6RvchtzWwAAggAA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC910@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:44:25 -0000 PiANCj4gTXkgZmlyc3QgcHJlZmVyZW5jZSB3b3VsZCBiZSB0byBtYWtlIG5vIGNoYW5nZSBoZXJl LCBvdXQgb2YgY29uY2Vybg0KPiB0aGF0IGxhc3QtbWludXRlIGNoYW5nZXMgbGlrZSB0aGlzIHRl bmQgdG8gaW50cm9kdWNlIGVycm9ycy4NCg0KKzENCg0KPiANCj4gSWYgd2UgTVVTVCBtYWtlIGEg Y2hhbmdlLCByYXRoZXIgdGhhdCBhZGRpbmcgbW9yZSB0ZXh0IG9yIGEgdGFibGUsDQo+IG15IHBy ZWZlcmVuY2Ugd291bGQgYmUgdG8gc2ltcGx5IGRlbGV0ZSAiVGhlc2UgbWFrZSBpZGVudGlmaWNh dGlvbg0KPiBvZiB0aGUgc3VidGFnJ3MNCj4gdHlwZSBwb3NzaWJsZSwgZXZlbiBpZiB0aGUgY29u dGVudCBvZiB0aGUgc3VidGFnIGl0c2VsZiBpcw0KPiB1bnJlY29nbml6ZWQuICIgIFRoZSByZXN0 DQo+IG9mIHRoZSBwYXJhZ3JhcGggc3RpbGwgc2F5cyB3aGF0IG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlIHNhaWQuDQo+ IA0KDQorMQ0KDQpBbHRob3VnaCwgaG9uZXN0bHksIEkgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBzZW50ZW5jZSBpcyB1 c2VmdWwuDQoNCkFkZGlzb24NCg== From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 20:45:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6980F3A6A07 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:45:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8VzOrP7tL2LM for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:45:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 756F83A69E6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:45:46 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=KvXzJ7Ya58IcW/2FyR88k8ulpJZhMFhy/x/OMi77NlGfQ+jSPgFKjFCgdcEQcj6c; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDsHX-0007LF-Sh for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:45:52 -0400 Message-ID: <00e501c9e8b4$ce7c9c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:46:00 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968406a5aea2e6209b87b6233c2cde80d6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primarysubtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:45:47 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- > > Latn" valid. > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, > such as IETF LC. ... As a technical contributor... Requests for new primary language subtags are, particularly if 4645bis is approved, likely to be very infrequent and rather specialized. If the corresponding request for a new language code were rejected by the ISO 639 folk, then the odds are very good that we'd be talking about a particularly fuzzy case of language vs. variety, a particularly dead language or some other case that will revolve around (1) specialized needs of those who want to be able to tag material in this language and (2) some linguistic argumentation about whether this can reasonably be considered to be a variety of something already registered. In either case, I'm *highly* sceptical that much taking it to an IETF last call would be enlightening or useful. The people who care about such things are either already on the ietf-languages@iana.org list, or will be recruited to that list by the party seeking the registration. To cite a past example, I cannot imagine how having an IETF last call on Enochian would have been helpful to anyone. Consequently, I am strongly opposed to making this change. Randy From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon Jun 8 20:47:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558513A6AB0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:47:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.976 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.976 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CiSI9uuhdlxL for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:47:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f181.google.com (mail-pz0-f181.google.com [209.85.222.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4CC3A69E6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk11 with SMTP id 11so739564pzk.29 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:47:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=3vlXguPF8StRttEMwDK6vq7qYx2nwhIGOA0BkCqS0AY=; b=k+kMdQMslbK56KQCe8LFQjrwjXnXUKsDEEfVqYGAnLTShnBVtpQweRQrrN7vhx47M2 d6/dnIq7Lz013o1qZyVMjNLGb1AVSnKW7aD6BpTkbEkMprhL1xBPSgldVxpEaBTqvTDP fbQuo2ESSo4EtcWbgdGF4PJLFa/xdyGUlOjUc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=JnuHbmg93cIK2h2xgT6Qbr2mzk2HjfkX4p1X5wdPwP9ubhzI4Oy2uq5XkVHBlaVCIU Qhn0hXv88Ajgu9m3JQ/MNgawJQOh2vRkyFpnJpoBR+6XvwXCmb+Qb+7Nf9Mbksa3vkeZ Mf4kC+46Amu1xZKi7LZm2SVZg8Iab++BnoSOU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.165.9 with SMTP id s9mr2978126wfo.54.1244519236272; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:47:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC910@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC910@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:47:15 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5052520dba1e3251 Message-ID: <30b660a20906082047l414bece2w524fd7c63897c9ca@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e0a826fe83e8046be23691 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:47:16 -0000 --001636e0a826fe83e8046be23691 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree; I'd rather retain useful sentences... Mark On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 20:44, Phillips, Addison wrote: > > > > My first preference would be to make no change here, out of concern > > that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors. > > +1 > > > > > If we MUST make a change, rather that adding more text or a table, > > my preference would be to simply delete "These make identification > > of the subtag's > > type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is > > unrecognized. " The rest > > of the paragraph still says what needs to be said. > > > > +1 > > Although, honestly, I think that sentence is useful. > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --001636e0a826fe83e8046be23691 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree; I'd rather retain useful sentences...

Mar= k


On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 20:44, Phillips, = Addison <addison= @amazon.com> wrote:
>
> My first preference would be to make no change here, out of concern > that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors.

+1

>
> If we MUST make a change, rather that adding more text or a table,
> my preference would be to simply delete "These make identificatio= n
> of the subtag's
> type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is
> unrecognized. " =C2=A0The rest
> of the paragraph still says what needs to be said.
>

+1

Although, honestly, I think that sentence is useful.

Addison
__________________________________= _____________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--001636e0a826fe83e8046be23691-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 8 20:48:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687B83A69E6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:48:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.526 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.526 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.073, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8D1giC3fxDWR for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A353A6802 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:48:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=H78kc5Xh2JTyM7A5V4yVYbczr06xcsuUAdDTJ6YXQ6PJ1+j7AppiQvDwK5xbo1DM; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.189.190] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDsKI-0004wR-Sl for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:48:43 -0400 Message-ID: <00ec01c9e8b5$349870e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:48:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69683c1eb185352e56f7514abe2895c9fd9c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.189.190 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST languagein 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:48:38 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review .... > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- > > Latn" valid. > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. ... As a technical contributor, I can agree with this proposal, as long as the case of non-response or negative response is covered. Randy From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Jun 8 20:49:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 811563A687B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CKrRrGs2RsPC for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E9553A6802 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n593ndQ3017140 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:49:39 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6513_8ea58258_54a8_11de_9f23_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:49:39 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:57784) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:47:52 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2DDBC4.5060403@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:49:24 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000601c9e8a3$4caba380$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <007101c9e8ab$cc04fb60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <007101c9e8ab$cc04fb60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:49:45 -0000 +1 On 2009/06/09 11:41, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 8). Section 1 currently says: >> >> This document replaces [RFC4646], which replaced [RFC3066] and its >> predecessor [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, see >> Section 8. >> >> RFC 4646 used to say: >> >> This document, in combination with [RFC4647], replaces [RFC3066], >> which replaced [RFC1766]. For a list of changes in this document, >> see Section 8. >> >> I think it would be more correct for 4646bis to say: >> >> This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination >> with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. >> For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. > > As a technical contributor, I have no objection to this proposed change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 20:50:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA723A6A7B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:50:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0uWD8j5XB0JH for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 355B13A6802 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:50:22 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,328,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="230465074" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 03:50:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n593oQsP006742 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:50:26 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:50:01 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:49:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) Thread-Index: AcnornxtSBOTjaTyShWoBpVHvmdqLgABkUpg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC914@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:50:22 -0000 PiBBcyBhIHRlY2huaWNhbCBjb250cmlidXRvci4uLg0KPiANCj4gSSB0aGluayBhZGRpbmcgdGhp cyBhZGRpdGlvbmFsIG1hdGVyaWFsIHRvIHRoZSBBQk5GIHdvdWxkIG11ZGR5DQo+IHRoZSBkaXN0 aW5jdGlvbnMgc3BlbGxlZCBvdXQgaW4gMi4yLjkuICBBbHNvLCBhbGwgdGhlIHJlbGV2YW50DQo+ IGVsYWJvcmF0aW9ucw0KPiBhcmUgaW4gdGhlIG5leHQgKGkuZS4gMi4yLiopIHN1Yi1zZWN0aW9u LCBzbyBpdCdzIG5vdCBhcyB0aG91Z2ggdGhlDQo+IHJlYWRlciBpcyBsZWZ0IGluIHN1c3BlbnNl IGZvciBhbnkgZ3JlYXQgbGVuZ3RoIG9mIHRpbWUuDQo+IENvbnNlcXVlbnRseSwNCj4gSSBkbyBu b3QgdGhpbmsgdGhhdCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBoZWxwZnVsIHRvIG1ha2UgdGhpcyBjaGFuZ2UuDQo+ IA0KDQpJIGFncmVlLiBBcyBub3RlZCBwcmV2aW91c2x5LCBJIHRoaW5rIGl0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGNv dW50ZXJwcm9kdWN0aXZlIHRvIG1ha2UgdGhlIHJlcXVlc3RlZCBjaGFuZ2VzLiBUaGVyZSBpcyB1 dGlsaXR5IGluIHRoZSBBQk5GIGFsb25lIChzZWUgd2VsbC1mb3JtZWQgaW4gU2VjdGlvbiAyLjIu OSkuIFRoZSAicmVsZXZhbnQgZWxhYm9yYXRpb25zIiBoYXZlIG5vdGhpbmcgdG8gZG8gd2l0aCBs YW5ndWFnZSB0YWcgc3ludGF4OiB0aGV5IGFyZSBzdHJpY3RseSBvbiB3aGF0IGl0ZW1zIGFwcGVh ciBpbiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgYW5kIGFzIHJlY29tbWVuZGF0aW9ucyB0byB1c2VycyBhcyB0byB3 aGVuIGNlcnRhaW4gc3VidGFncyBoYXZlIHV0aWxpdHkgdG9nZXRoZXIuIFRoZXkgZG9uJ3QgY2hh bmdlIHRoZSBzdHJ1Y3R1cmUgb2YgdGFncyBub3IgdGhlICpwb3RlbnRpYWwqIHJhbmdlIG9mIGVh Y2ggc3VidGFnIHR5cGUuDQoNCkFkZGlzb24NCg== From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Jun 8 20:52:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E91E3A69E6 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kiTUliviOmjL for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D9C3A687B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n593q2Il019003 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:52:06 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 470e_e3c57e50_54a8_11de_891f_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:52:02 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:57785) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:50:15 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2DDC54.1010400@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:51:48 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:52:02 -0000 Co-chairs hat off: The average reader of an IETF document knows that the syntax isn't everything. The document has subsections for each of the relevant constructs, which are easy to find from the TOC. So I concur that there is no need to change this. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 12:00, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete >> because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that >> describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid >> elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the >> reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF >> comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" >> production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and >> "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are >> found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. > > As a technical contributor... > > I think adding this additional material to the ABNF would muddy > the distinctions spelled out in 2.2.9. Also, all the relevant elaborations > are in the next (i.e. 2.2.*) sub-section, so it's not as though the > reader is left in suspense for any great length of time. Consequently, > I do not think that it would be helpful to make this change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 20:52:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11C043A687B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AODOUr3CRUla for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 009DE3A6AB0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,328,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="279223047" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 03:52:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n593qQZ8006746 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:52:27 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:26 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan , Randy Presuhn Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:52:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) Thread-Index: AcnopWcVgsYijEgTSuyZbkssAXlRmQAEBr7A Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC916@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <20090609015541.GB21239@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20090609015541.GB21239@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:52:25 -0000 PiBUaGlzIGNvbXBsYWludCBzaG91bGQgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHJhaXNlZCBhdCBSRkMgNDY0NiBsYXN0 IGNhbGwsIGFuZA0KPiBzb21lDQo+IHBhcnRzIG9mIGl0LCBhcmd1YWJseSwgYXQgUkZDIDE3NjYg bGFzdCBjYWxsLiAgSXQgaXMgdmVyeS1sYXRlLQ0KPiBzdGFnZQ0KPiBleHRyYSB3b3JrIGFuZCB0 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10024) with ESMTP id Xjgc-s2XtUBP for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB5A3A6768 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:53:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,328,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="230465545" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 03:53:38 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n593raml032686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:53:37 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:53:36 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:53:34 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards Thread-Index: AcnopXAFv0IbCo3xSO+yiMEnmAdbRwAEFKdw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC918@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 03:53:36 -0000 SSByZWNhbGwgdGhhdCBJIG9wcG9zZWQgaXQgc3RyaWN0bHkgYmVjYXVzZSBpdCB3YXMgc3RpbHRl ZCBhbmQgYXdrd2FyZCBzb3VuZGluZy4gSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIEpvaG4gdGhhdCBpdCBpcyB0ZWNo bmljYWxseSBtb3JlIGNvcnJlY3QuIEJ1dCBpdCBpc24ndCBub3cgbm9yIHdhcyBpdCBuZWNlc3Nh 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ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 205DC3A6923 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:00:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.766 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.766 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.167, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMUVedRJKEVc for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE7283A687B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:00:42 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,328,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="196943952" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 04:00:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5940lJR008955 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:00:48 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:00:46 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:00:45 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) Thread-Index: Acnophe+PjugHPOZRN+mbCRmrOXbpAAEBNew Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC922@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:00:44 -0000 SUVURiBMQyB3b3VsZCBiZSBpbmFwcHJvcHJpYXRlIGFzIGFuIG91dGNvbWUgZm9yIGEgbGFuZ3Vh Z2UgcmVnaXN0cmF0aW9uIHJlcXVlc3QuIFRoZXJlIGFscmVhZHkgZXhpc3RzIHRoZSBhcHBlYWxz IHByb2Nlc3MsIHdoaWNoIGhhcyBuZXZlciBiZWVuIGFjdHVhbGx5IHVzZWQgKHRocmVhdGVuZWQs IHllcywgYnV0IG5ldmVyIHVzZWQpLiBUaGUgcHJvY2VzcyBzZWVtcyB0byB3b3JrLiBFbGFib3Jh dGluZyBpdCBzZWVtcyB1bm5lY2Vzc2FyeS4NCg0KSXQgaXMgYWxzbyB0aGUgY2FzZSB0aGF0IGEg bGFuZ3VhZ2UgcmVqZWN0ZWQgYnkgSVNPIDYzOVJBIGFuZCBieSB0aGUgZXhwZXJ0IHN1YnRhZyBy 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bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From doug@ewellic.org Mon Jun 8 21:02:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A8B3A6923 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:02:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.484, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GTi8Z7x6QiKZ for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:02:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.37]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EC52E3A6768 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1388 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 04:02:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth13.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.37) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 04:02:57 -0000 Message-ID: <21E79A49AD7A4D9189A011661BE4E423@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:02:55 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:02:53 -0000 Randy Presuhn wrote: >> This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination >> with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. >> For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. > > As a technical contributor, I have no objection to this proposed > change. I agree, especially since the proposed replacement text is already in front of us and there should be no need to waste time debating it or wordsmithing it further. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From addison@amazon.com Mon Jun 8 21:12:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF0E3A6A7B for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:12:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BiqMc+CkcDHb for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 524133A6923 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,329,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="279229276" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 04:12:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n594CoaO026367 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:12:50 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:12:50 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:12:49 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST languagein 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnotTG54ynnIrW+QCKy3WQDfBxdxAAAmCQg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC92E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00ec01c9e8b5$349870e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00ec01c9e8b5$349870e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST languagein 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:12:47 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tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PZEtp9yWExu0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 795443A67D7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:57:56 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=sm0t1ks6lBYpJccxNawpwmjiH/XankYwKiYfWwVMw1U616UBrPWdSKoTFedIvmG4; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.136.116] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MDtPN-0007TC-UU for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:58:02 -0400 Message-ID: <013001c9e8be$e294c280$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:58:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968bd218ec4efb5223ce9114204c1214e8c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.136.116 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 04:57:57 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review ... > 14). Language Tag validity verification requires applications to keep > up-to-date copies of the Language Tag registry. Such applications might > be designed to automatically fetch new versions of the registry. This > has three problems: > I). IANA is generally not happy about applications automatically > downloading registries, unless data is located in DNS. This is primarily > to scaling concerns. > II). There is also the issue of when application should be fetching the > updated registry. I.e. what is the mechanism(s) for determining when to > fetch. > III). The registry format is not designed for figuring out the minimal > list of changes between any 2 versions. For example there is no way of > only fetching changes since a given File-Date value. > > > BTW, are people aware of implementations that try to download Language > Tag registry automatically? > > > While I don't expect this issue to be fully fixed at such a late stage, > it needs to be discussed in the document. Some thoughts about what can > be said on the topic: > > Regarding I): application should be advised against frequent polling of > the registry. For example: > > The registries specified in this document are not > suitable for applications that require real-time access > to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. > > It might be nice to have the File-Date value available as a separate > short piece of data (a separate web page on IANA's website, a thing in > DNS, etc. > But even with existing registry format it might be possible to minimize > load on IANA's website by describing how HTTP/1.1 features can be used > to only download necessary information, such as downloading the > beginning of the registry which contains the File-Date field. > > Regarding II): I think this needs some advice on which operations need > and which don't need fetching of the registry. > > Also this might mention that any application keeping a copy of the > registry needs to preserve the File-Date value in some form. > > Regarding III): I think it is Ok for now to explicitly acknowledge that > this is an issue. > > It might also be worth discussing how the registry format facilitates > "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. This has been entered into the tracker as #62. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/62 Randy From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 22:50:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2CD3A6B92 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:50:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.143, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HT9T1uJjzazP for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F0AF3A67D7 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:50:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:50:10 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:50:09 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:48:56 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) Thread-Index: AcnotzIhjpQxMh/dRqGm/t1ZmxMAxQADrwUw Message-ID: References: <21E79A49AD7A4D9189A011661BE4E423@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <21E79A49AD7A4D9189A011661BE4E423@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 05:50:05 -0000 KzENCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERvdWcgRXdl bGwNClNlbnQ6IE1vbmRheSwgSnVuZSAwOCwgMjAwOSA5OjAzIFBNDQpUbzogTFRSVSBXb3JraW5n IEdyb3VwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdICM1NTogU2VjdGlvbiAxIHJvbGUvaGlzdG9yeSAo QXBwcyAjOCkNCg0KUmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobiA8cmFuZHkgdW5kZXJzY29yZSBwcmVzdWhuIGF0IG1p bmRzcHJpbmcgZG90IGNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCj4+IFRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgcmVwbGFjZXMgW1JG QzQ2NDZdLiBUaGlzIGRvY3VtZW50LCBpbiBjb21iaW5hdGlvbg0KPj4gd2l0aCBbUkZDNDY0N10g cmVwbGFjZXMgW1JGQzMwNjZdIGFuZCBpdHMgcHJlZGVjZXNzb3IgW1JGQzE3NjZdLg0KPj4gRm9y IGEgbGlzdCBvZiBjaGFuZ2VzIGluIHRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQsIHNlZSBTZWN0aW9uIDguDQo+DQo+ IEFzIGEgdGVjaG5pY2FsIGNvbnRyaWJ1dG9yLCBJIGhhdmUgbm8gb2JqZWN0aW9uIHRvIHRoaXMg cHJvcG9zZWQgDQo+IGNoYW5nZS4NCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSwgZXNwZWNpYWxseSBzaW5jZSB0aGUgcHJv cG9zZWQgcmVwbGFjZW1lbnQgdGV4dCBpcyBhbHJlYWR5IGluIA0KZnJvbnQgb2YgdXMgYW5kIHRo ZXJlIHNob3VsZCBiZSBubyBuZWVkIHRvIHdhc3RlIHRpbWUgZGViYXRpbmcgaXQgb3IgDQp3b3Jk c21pdGhpbmcgaXQgZnVydGhlci4NCg0KLS0NCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBDb2xv cmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGljLm9y Zw0KaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRtbA0K aHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMg IMuGDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpM dHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFp bG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Jun 8 23:11:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 281D03A6CD0 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:11:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zptEtrzld4bT for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 083913A6C4E for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n596BiFl001207 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:11:44 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 76df_6853a3aa_54bc_11de_8070_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:11:44 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:47330) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:09:58 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2DFD12.6020400@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:11:30 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:11:55 -0000 co-chair hat off: My strong preference is also to not make any changes here. I also have a strong preference for leaving the sentence in question in, as otherwise somebody might be missing this feature of language tags completely, which would be a pity. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 12:28, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the >> subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is >> unrecognized". >> >> Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from >> ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A >> compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. > > As a technical contributor... > > My first preference would be to make no change here, out of concern > that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors. > > If we MUST make a change, rather that adding more text or a table, > my preference would be to simply delete "These make identification of the subtag's > type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. " The rest > of the paragraph still says what needs to be said. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Jun 8 23:17:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588723A6C4E for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tHFTLWwxPCNQ for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B39A3A6B81 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n596H8F9009050 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:17:08 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 20c2_2915d748_54bd_11de_9568_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:17:08 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:34233) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:15:21 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2DFE55.1080201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:16:53 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable References: <21E79A49AD7A4D9189A011661BE4E423@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:17:04 -0000 co-chair and shepherd hats on: I have seen 5 people in favor of adopting the new text, and nobody against. I think that's a very clear expression of preferences. I herewith would like to ask the editors to adopt the new text, and Randy to close this issue in the tracker. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 14:48, Peter Constable wrote: > +1 > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:03 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) > > Randy Presuhn wrote: > >>> This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination >>> with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. >>> For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. >> As a technical contributor, I have no objection to this proposed >> change. > > I agree, especially since the proposed replacement text is already in > front of us and there should be no need to waste time debating it or > wordsmithing it further. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://www.ewellic.org > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Jun 8 23:24:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F463A6B81 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ZX66t+24Bp4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7F823A68E4 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n596OGF9019974 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:24:18 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6342_2835e6aa_54be_11de_ac21_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:24:16 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:53751) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:22:30 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0002.9080105@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:24:02 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00e501c9e8b4$ce7c9c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00e501c9e8b4$ce7c9c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primarysubtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:24:14 -0000 co-chair hat off: I fully agree with Randy. Bothering the IETF list with a last call on a single entry in a registry, for what will be a very marginal case, is going to upset more than it's going to help. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 12:46, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 12). In Section 2.2.1: >> >>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA >>> registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 >>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example >>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary >>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- >>> Latn" valid. >>> >>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>> registration with ISO 639, >> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to >> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be >> known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the >> Language Subtag Expert. >> >>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >>> before they are registered with IANA. >> This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, >> such as IETF LC. > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > Requests for new primary language subtags are, particularly if > 4645bis is approved, likely to be very infrequent and rather > specialized. If the corresponding request for a new language > code were rejected by the ISO 639 folk, then the odds are very good > that we'd be talking about a particularly fuzzy case of language vs. > variety, a particularly dead language or some other case that > will revolve around (1) specialized needs of those who want to > be able to tag material in this language and (2) some linguistic > argumentation about whether this can reasonably be considered > to be a variety of something already registered. In either case, > I'm *highly* sceptical that much taking it to an IETF last call would > be enlightening or useful. The people who care about such > things are either already on the ietf-languages@iana.org list, > or will be recruited to that list by the party seeking the > registration. To cite a past example, I cannot imagine how > having an IETF last call on Enochian would have been > helpful to anyone. > > Consequently, I am strongly opposed to making this change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Mon Jun 8 23:28:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E4028C154 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:28:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ieSk5ztQzJEY for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48D93A6B81 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n596Sjv9023957 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:28:45 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0292_c87ff830_54be_11de_bd02_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:28:45 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:57966) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:26:58 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E010E.3050801@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:28:30 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov References: <4A2D7273.5040705@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2D7273.5040705@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org, Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #40: AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:28:42 -0000 Okay. Given our AD is fine with these explanations, we'll leave issue 40 closed. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 5:20, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> >>> # 40: The new text is better, but it doesn't specify any dealine >>> (as other cases do). If the WG and Expert Reviewers think that >>> this is Ok, then it is Ok with me. >> >> I think this is expected to be such a rare and extraordinary >> situation, and we have so little experience (i.e. none) petitioning >> ISO 3166/RA in this way, that the vagueness seems justified and >> harmless. Any number of days we specify is likely to be as arbitrary >> as any other. > > Right. > > What I had in mind is that the default action is going to be done after > the period expires, but not before. > >> Remember that the new ISO 3166-1 rule about not reusing code elements >> for 50 years should greatly reduce or eliminate the stated scenario of >> "an ISO 3166-1 code that is blocked from registration by an existing >> subtag." >> >> This is a corner-of-the-corner case, and as one of the Designated >> Experts likely to be caught in the middle of the whole scenario should >> it ever occur, I don't see a problem here. > > This is not a big deal, I am Ok leaving the current text as is. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 23:45:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E05D3A6D65 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.724 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.724 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3h6wunV1g+bE for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 737F13A69ED for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:45:15 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:45:15 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:45:14 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) Thread-Index: Acnosngqr2pF6zreRqunw/86+9ecpgAFMe4A Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:45:10 -0000 I agree on preferring no change: in addition to the reasons Randy gives, I = note that this statement comes in the introduction to a detailed discussion= on all of the various types of subtags, and that discussion, with referenc= e to the ABNF, will allow the reader to understand how this statement is tr= ue. If a change _must_ be made, I would not delete the sentence that Randy sugg= ests: that sentence makes an observation in relation to an important design= goal for 3066bis: that the syntax allow parsers to clearly recognize subta= gs of different types without reference to the registry. Rather, I would ma= ke a change replacing the third paragraph with the following (or something = along these lines: The syntax of language tags has been designed to allow the type of informat= ion conveyed by each subtag to be recognizable even if the specific meaning= of the subtags is not known. Apart from grandfathered tags (a limited enum= eration), singletons, and private-use and extension subtags (which can be r= ecognized by the preceding singletons), all subtags are of one of five type= s: primary language subtags, extended language subtags, script subtags, reg= ion subtags, or variant subtags. The syntax of language tags assigns distin= ct positions or length restrictions to each type of subtag. For example, a = 4ALPHA subtag that is not the first subtag, does not follow a singleton and= is not part of grandfathered subtag must always be a script subtag. (The subsections that follow describe the various types of subtag. See thes= e sections and also the ABNF in Section 2.1 for precise syntactic details t= hat allow each type of subtag to be recognizable.) This feature of the syntax allow tags to be parsed and processed without re= ference to the latest version of the underlying standards or the IANA regis= try and makes the associated exception handling when parsing tags simpler. Note: this issue is editorial in nature, not technical. I would be open to = no change or any other suggested revision that is limited to changes of an = editorial-only nature. Again, my first choice is for no change at this time= . Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:28 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subta= gtype (Apps #11) Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team= review ... > 11). Paragraph 3 of Section 2.2 asserts that "...identification of the > subtag's type [is] possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is > unrecognized". > > Without a table summarizing the rules a reader needs to infer them from > ABNF in Section 2.1 and possibly by reading the rest of the document. A > compact text or table summarizing the rules would improve the document. As a technical contributor... My first preference would be to make no change here, out of concern that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors. If we MUST make a change, rather that adding more text or a table, my preference would be to simply delete "These make identification of the s= ubtag's type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is unrecognized. " = The rest of the paragraph still says what needs to be said. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From petercon@microsoft.com Mon Jun 8 23:53:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A543A6909 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:53:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.111, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZErDNZEuTkj for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAF7C3A68EC for ; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:51:59 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:51:59 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 23:51:58 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) Thread-Index: AcnosYZuFL6oWjNJQr+0OC8VTJCznAAHOUZw Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001001c9e8a4$4992ae40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:53:20 -0000 Alexey already replied to Kent that he was OK with no change for this issue= : -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ale= xey Melnikov Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:50 AM To: Kent Karlsson [snip] >>I suggest no change. >> =20 >Ok with me. I concur with no change on this. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:22 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team= review ... > 10). In Section 2.2 > > > o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by > > hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh= - > > Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in > > single quotes ('Hant'). > > > > o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which > > are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an > > [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script > > subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this > > document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). > > These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate > categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". > Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? ... As a technical contributor... Yes. The claim that "code" is a subset of "subtag" is in my opinion incorrect. The various "source" standards we use define a whole bunch of strings, which they sometimes refer to as "codes" and sometimes as "code elements". For sanity, and with no loss of clarity, we refer to those individual strin= gs as "codes." The Language Subtag Registry contains information correspondin= g to specific subtags. The strings used to encode them happen to be the same as the strings used for some codes in those source standards. Maintaining the distinction is important, particularly in cases where the source standard (e.g., through re-assignment) can potentially diverge from the registry's usage of a particular string. Consequently, I think the document should be left as it is in this regard. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 00:03:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBE4D28C17E for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:03:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcfDVeqtc3YP for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC49728C17D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.40) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:03:23 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.40]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:03:23 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:03:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) Thread-Index: AcnorpJCGpvkVMKZRaeHAMCUF5l+cwAIOGjQ Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:03:18 -0000 I also prefer to see no change.=20 If some change _must_ be made, I would make it a minimalist change, such as= adding the following single line right after figure 1: "Details regarding the various elements that make up language tags, includi= ng valid sources for subtags, are discussed in Section 2.2." Again, my first choice is to leave things as they are. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:01 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough= (Apps #9) Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team= review ... > 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete > because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that > describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid > elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the > reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF > comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" > production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and > "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are > found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag= . As a technical contributor... I think adding this additional material to the ABNF would muddy the distinctions spelled out in 2.2.9. Also, all the relevant elaborations are in the next (i.e. 2.2.*) sub-section, so it's not as though the reader is left in suspense for any great length of time. Consequently, I do not think that it would be helpful to make this change. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 00:04:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FD423A698D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.247 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.247 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.037, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id flRAKN+1DzLn for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031443A683F for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5974KW6013492 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:04:20 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 01df_c1572f1a_54c3_11de_b845_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:04:20 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:54584) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:02:34 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0966.2010404@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:04:06 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:04:27 -0000 Hello Doug, others, co-chair hat off: On 2009/06/09 11:02, Doug Ewell wrote: > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> A registrations request is sent on date T1 and approved by you on date >> T2. You send a message to IANA saying that it was approved, the >> message is eaten by IANA's antispam engine (or whatever). Another >> request approved on date T3 (T3 > T2) is integrated to the registry, >> IANA updates the registry date to be T3. >> Then later on the first request is discovered to be lost and resend. >> If IANA is to act according to the procedure as described in 4646bis >> right now, IANA will not change the registry date, because T2 < T3 (== >> the registry date) > > I understand now. What IANA would actually do in this case is apply a > File-Date of T4 (= "later on") and all would be well. But this isn't > what the draft says they would do. > >>> so the passage in 5.1 about a new File-Date record having "a later >>> date than the record being inserted or modified" often does apply. >> >> I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. This probably >> means that this sentence is already ambiguous. > > You're right. The passage says that in your example above, IANA would > apply T3 (again) instead of T2. Both would be wrong. > >>> 4. IANA usually tends to ignore the File-Date records attached to the >>> replacement records anyway, and instead applies the date on which >>> they process the changes and release the new Registry. >> >> I agree that this is what IANA should do. In fact as per recent >> discussion I think IANA MUST always do that. But IANA is violating the >> procedure described in 4646bis as written. >> >> So I am basically asking to align the document with the current >> procedure Michael/you and IANA are already using. > > I understand and agree. > >> In another message Doug Ewell wrote: >> >>> You should always be able to use the File-Date to determine whether a >>> local copy is up to date. A later revision of the Registry will >>> always have an later File-Date than an earlier version, unless (a) >>> somebody makes a mistake or (b) IANA generates two revisions in a >>> single day. Both (a) and (b) are possible, but about equally unlikely. >> >> I agree that (a) is unlikely. Even if (b) is possible, I think it is >> Ok stating this explicitly in the document. > > Something like "IANA MUST process only one batch per day, to avoid > File-Date ambiguity problems"? I think this goes into the right direction, but "File-Date ambiguity problems" will raise questions with our readers. What about: >>>> To make sure that updates to the registry, and different versions of the registry, can be distinguished by only checking their File-Date, IANA will publish at most one new version of the registry per day, and will make sure that the File-Dates in subsequent publications of the registry are strictly in temporal order. >>>> Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From gerard.lang@insee.fr Tue Jun 9 00:04:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEA783A6CFB for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NLogSFzEZgEQ for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hermes2.insee.fr (hermes2.insee.fr [194.254.38.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FDB3A683F for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by hermes2.insee.fr (Insee Mail server) with ESMTP id 85FF03BA270 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:04:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4D4794035 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:04:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X-wsIoZYPTI6 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:04:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D784794024 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:04:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.51]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:04:38 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:04:38 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35D73@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Code/code element/codetRE: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 7 thread-index: AcnoewqKK+xyTMfkQ52CWTKDxLJ/RgAVDOqQ References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Jun 2009 07:04:38.0455 (UTC) FILETIME=[8DAD3470:01C9E8D0] Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: [Ltru] Code/code element/codetRE: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 7 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:04:37 -0000 1-Please note that only "ISO 3166/MA" exists, not "ISO 3166/RA".=20 2-I confirm that ISO 3166 (and also ISO 639) make a firm distinction = between a code (that is a codification scheme) and a code element (that = is a value given by the code scheme for a given entry). 3-What would be the drama to forge "codet" (that is the french word for = "code element") as a new english word to replace "code element" ? G=E9rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = ltru-request@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : lundi 8 juin 2009 22:52 =C0 : ltru@ietf.org Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 7 If you have received this digest without all the individual message = attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list = subscription. To do so, go to=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get = MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option globally = for all the list digests you receive at this point. Send Ltru mailing list submissions to ltru@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ltru-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at ltru-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than = "Re: Contents of Ltru digest..." Today's Topics: 1. On "code" in ISO standards (Peter Constable) 2. Re: On "code" in ISO standards (Phillips, Addison) 3. Re: On "code" in ISO standards (John Cowan) 4. Re: On "code" in ISO standards (Peter Constable) 5. Re: On "code" in ISO standards (Phillips, Addison) 6. Re: Issue #40: AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49 (Alexey Melnikov) 7. Re: Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) (Alexey Melnikov) 8. Re: Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value (Alexey Melnikov) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:19:53 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards To: Kent Karlsson , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: = =09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Kent Karlsson > "Code" is what these items are called in the respective source = standards. I'll start off by saying I'm have no qualms with the use of "code" in = 4646bis at present.=20 That said, Kent's claim is not generally true. While it's clear that = there is common usage of "code" to refer to individual coding = identifiers, in ISO coding standards "code" is usually formally defined = as the complete coding system. The use of plural in the title of ISO 639 = does was not a reflection of there being multiple identifiers / coded = entities, but that there is more than one scheme. (The authors of 639-2 = were a little bit imprecise in defining terms, so at times it may seem = like "code" is used to mean an individual ID. Unfortunately, ISO 15924 = used 639-2 as a model and went the wrong way, becoming the exception to = the norm.) For instance, here are definitions from various standards (I find the = wording from 2382-4 makes this clearest): ISO 639: 1988 language code: A set of symbols used to designate languages. ISO 639-2:1998 code: data representation in different forms according to a = pre-established set of rules language code: combination of characters = used to represent a language or languages ISO 2382-4:1999 code / coding scheme: a collection of rules that maps the elements of a = first set onto the elements of a second set code value / code element / = code (deprecated in this sense): the result of applying a code to an = element of a coded set ISO 3166-3:1999 (same definitions as ISO 3166-1:1997) code: data transformation or data representation in different forms = according to pre-established rules [Adapted from ISO 5127-1:1983, = 1.1.4-06] code element: result of applying a code to an element in a set = of elements to be coded country code: listing of country names with = their representations by code elements ISO 639-1:2002 code: data transformed or represented in different forms according to a = pre-established set of rules code element: individual entry in a code ISO 639-3:2007 code: data transformed or represented in different forms according to a = pre-established set of rules code element: individual entry in a code = table ISO 3166-1:2005 code: set of data transformed or represented in different forms = according to a pre-established set of rules [ISO 5127:2001, 1.1.4-07] = code element: the result of applying a code to an element of a coded set = [ISO/IEC 2382-4:1999, 04.02.04] NOTE 2 In this part of ISO 3166 a code = element represents a country name. country code: listing of country names with their representations by = code elements Peter ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 12:29:23 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards To: Peter Constable , Kent Karlsson , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDDA0@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >=20 > > "Code" is what these items are called in the respective source > standards. >=20 > I'll start off by saying I'm have no qualms with the use of "code" > in 4646bis at present. I'll point out that we define the word 'code' in 4646bis (and 4646, for = that matter) strictly as internal terminology. We did so to distinguish = items from the underlying standards from items in the registry in the = many places in the document where 'codes' from a standard are discussed = in relation to 'subtags' in the registry. It's an important distinction = and one that should be preserved. In fact, I'm slightly incredulous = about the comment. Addison ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:35:29 -0400 From: John Cowan Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards To: Peter Constable Cc: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <20090608193529.GD20171@mercury.ccil.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii Peter Constable scripsit: > I'll start off by saying I'm have no qualms with the use of "code" > in 4646bis at present. [details snipped] During the WG discussion of 4646, I proposed changing "code" to "code = element" for conformity with ISO 639 and ISO 3166; however, that = proposal failed to gain consensus. --=20 Even a refrigerator can conform to the XML John Cowan Infoset, as long as it has a door sticker cowan@ccil.org saying "No information items inside". = http://www.ccil.org/~cowan --Eve Maler ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:04:13 -0700 From: Peter Constable Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards To: "Phillips, Addison" , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: = =09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" With my comment?=20 I was merely commenting on Kent's suggestion that our use is derived = from ISO standards. Your clarification makes it clear that our use was = definitely not derived from ISO standards, and so is not incompatible = with my comment. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:29 PM To: Peter Constable; Kent Karlsson; LTRU Working Group Subject: RE: On "code" in ISO standards > In fact, I'm slightly incredulous about the comment. Addison ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:05:08 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" Subject: Re: [Ltru] On "code" in ISO standards To: Peter Constable , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDE37@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > With my comment? No, with the original comment. Addison ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:20:03 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #40: AD #7 - section 3.4 on ISO 3166 vs UN M.49 To: Doug Ewell Cc: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <4A2D7273.5040705@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> # 40: The new text is better, but it doesn't specify any dealine (as=20 >> other cases do). If the WG and Expert Reviewers think that this is=20 >> Ok, then it is Ok with me. > > I think this is expected to be such a rare and extraordinary=20 > situation, and we have so little experience (i.e. none) petitioning=20 > ISO 3166/RA in this way, that the vagueness seems justified and=20 > harmless. Any number of days we specify is likely to be as arbitrary=20 > as any other. Right. What I had in mind is that the default action is going to be done after = the period expires, but not before. > Remember that the new ISO 3166-1 rule about not reusing code elements=20 > for 50 years should greatly reduce or eliminate the stated scenario of = > "an ISO 3166-1 code that is blocked from registration by an existing=20 > subtag." > > This is a corner-of-the-corner case, and as one of the Designated=20 > Experts likely to be caught in the middle of the whole scenario should = > it ever occur, I don't see a problem here. This is not a big deal, I am Ok leaving the current text as is. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:30:34 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Registering a primary language subtag (was: Additional issues with 4646bis...) To: Doug Ewell Cc: ltru@ietf.org Message-ID: <4A2D74EA.5070903@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed >Sorry, there is no ticket for this yet, but at least this e-mail deals=20 >with only one issue. > >Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >>>>>At the time this document was created, there were no examples of=20 >>>>>this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are=20 >>>>>discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for=20 >>>>>registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/=20 >>>>>RA-JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer=20 >>>>>before they are registered with IANA. >>>>> >>>>This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider=20 >>>>review, such as IETF LC. >>> >>>What is a big deal? Why would an IETF LC be appropriate for this? >> >>To alert IAB and other interested parties about the situation. > =20 >Huh? > >Someone wants to register a language subtag for (say) Loxian and=20 >submits a proposal form to ietf-languages. The Language Subtag=20 >Reviewer, or designee, submits a proposal to ISO 639/RA-JAC. That body=20 >consults with Linguist List, and after due process decides not to=20 >assign a code element. The original requester makes a convincing case=20 >to ietf-languages that the subtag is justified. The Reviewer and group=20 >"closely scrutinize" the request and decide to assign the subtag. > > >Why would this matter deserve special attention by the Internet=20 >Architecture Board? Who are the "other interested parties" who need to=20 >review this? >The tag "i-enochian" was registered in 2002. If done under >4646 or 4646bis, it would have been the primary language subtag=20 >"enochian" instead. As I recall, neither the IAB nor "other interested=20 >parties" were specially alerted. What problems did this cause? Doug, this suggestion wasn't because of my mistrust to Language Tag = Reviewers, or anything like this. I am just relaying the sentiment = expressed by the Apps Team reviewer. After thinking more about this, I think suggesting that interested = parties should subscribe to the mailing list where reviews take place = and closing this part of the issue as "no change" would be just fine. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 21:51:35 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: <4A2D79D7.90903@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii; format=3Dflowed Doug Ewell wrote: > Can someone give an example scenario with example dates, to help me=20 > understand what the problem is? A registrations request is sent on date T1 and approved by you on date = T2. You send a message to IANA saying that it was approved, the message = is eaten by IANA's antispam engine (or whatever). Another request = approved on date T3 (T3 > T2) is integrated to the registry, IANA = updates the registry date to be T3. Then later on the first request is discovered to be lost and resend. If = IANA is to act according to the procedure as described in 4646bis right = now, IANA will not change the registry date, because T2 < T3 (=3D=3D the = registry date) > Remember that: > > > 1. It isn't expected to be possible to tell, just by looking at a=20 > given version of the Registry, whether IANA has processed all of the=20 > changes submitted to them. This is fine. Note, that this observation is not stated anywhere in the document. > 2. Modifications to existing records do not cause an update to the=20 > Added date, Right. > so the passage > in 5.1 about a new File-Date record having "a later date than the=20 > record being inserted or modified" > often does apply. I don't understand how you came to this conclusion. This probably means = that this sentence is already ambiguous. > 3. As stated previously, Michael and I usually batch the requests=20 > together before submitting them to IANA, even if they were originally=20 > submitted a few days apart or their review periods ended on different=20 > days for some reason. It would be very unusual for us to send IANA a=20 > few requests on Monday, a few more on Tuesday, and so on. I don't see a problem with that. > 4. IANA usually tends to ignore the File-Date records attached to the=20 > replacement records anyway, and instead applies the date on which they = > process the changes and release the new Registry. I agree that this is what IANA should do. In fact as per recent = discussion I think IANA MUST always do that. But IANA is violating the procedure described in 4646bis as written. So I am basically asking to align the document with the current = procedure Michael/you and IANA are already using. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D In another message Doug Ewell wrote: > Kent Karlsson wrote: > >>I don't think there is any actual problem in current practice, just=20 >>that the formal handling is not calling for this actual handling and=20 >>leaves a hole open for the possible problem of not being formally=20 >>"guaranteed" to be able to use the file-date alone to determine if a=20 >>local copy is up-to-date or not. >>Plugging that hole seem to not change actual current practice, just to = >>reinforce it. > > You should always be able to use the File-Date to determine whether a=20 > local copy is up to date. > A later revision of the Registry will always have an later File-Date=20 > than an earlier version, unless (a) somebody makes a mistake or (b)=20 > IANA generates two revisions in a single day. > Both (a) and (b) are possible, but about equally unlikely. I agree that (a) is unlikely. Even if (b) is possible, I think it is Ok = stating this explicitly in the document. > I'm glad our efforts to work out the big problems have been so=20 > successful that we have to resort to hypothetical cases like this to=20 > find flaws in the process. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru End of Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 7 *********************************** From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 00:07:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 383E23A6CD9 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:07:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.267, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wx8+WEiXf5CC for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 046E63A698D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5977DIu017848 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:07:13 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 1795_2882aa34_54c4_11de_91e4_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:07:13 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:45530) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:05:27 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0A13.40300@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:06:59 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable References: <21E79A49AD7A4D9189A011661BE4E423@DGBP7M81> <4A2DFE55.1080201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2DFE55.1080201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:07:10 -0000 Just to be complete with the record, I have found that Kent was against using the new text. However, I don't think this changes the current consensus resolution (Kent, if you think differently, please say so). Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 15:16, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > co-chair and shepherd hats on: > > I have seen 5 people in favor of adopting the new text, and nobody > against. I think that's a very clear expression of preferences. > > I herewith would like to ask the editors to adopt the new text, and > Randy to close this issue in the tracker. > > Regards, Martin. > > On 2009/06/09 14:48, Peter Constable wrote: >> +1 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >> Of Doug Ewell >> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:03 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) >> >> Randy Presuhn wrote: >> >>>> This document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination >>>> with [RFC4647] replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. >>>> For a list of changes in this document, see Section 8. >>> As a technical contributor, I have no objection to this proposed >>> change. >> >> I agree, especially since the proposed replacement text is already in >> front of us and there should be no need to waste time debating it or >> wordsmithing it further. >> >> -- >> Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 >> http://www.ewellic.org >> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html >> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 00:11:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BD83A69ED for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:11:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.27 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.27 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HL2fr2xEmBrm for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DEC3A698D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n597BCTG024196 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:11:12 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 39fc_b715229a_54c4_11de_ad5f_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:11:12 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:53315) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:09:26 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0B02.1090201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:10:58 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC910@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC910@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:11:09 -0000 co-chair and shepherd hat on: I have found six people who are against changing anything here. Three of them also were okay with removing the sentence. I think we have consensus for not changing anything. Randy, can you close this issue? Thanks, Martin. On 2009/06/09 12:44, Phillips, Addison wrote: >> My first preference would be to make no change here, out of concern >> that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors. > > +1 > >> If we MUST make a change, rather that adding more text or a table, >> my preference would be to simply delete "These make identification >> of the subtag's >> type possible, even if the content of the subtag itself is >> unrecognized. " The rest >> of the paragraph still says what needs to be said. >> > > +1 > > Although, honestly, I think that sentence is useful. > > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 00:15:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EA913A6909 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:15:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1S4JE4SkWMBI for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321693A683F for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n597FXmk030349 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:15:33 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 57d8_521337fa_54c5_11de_8585_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:15:32 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:55025) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:13:46 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0C06.7040709@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:15:18 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00ec01c9e8b5$349870e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC92E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC92E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST languagein 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:15:29 -0000 co-chair hat off. I would strongly prefer to leave it as is. From Randy's and Addison's messages, it seems that we need to go into wordsmithing details if we start to change something, and from the explanations, it doesn't seem worth the effort. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 13:12, Phillips, Addison wrote: > I would prefer that we not replace a recommendation with normative "MUST". If we must make a change, it should favor informative language. The registration process exists to be used. Advising requesters that ISO 639RA is a more suitable target, at least initially, is fine, but should not pose a restriction on the registration process in cases where a rejection is difficult to obtain. > > I would propose instead: > > -- > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registration of this type are > discouraged: primary languages ought to be registered with > ISO 639. Requests which have not been submitted to or which > have been rejected by ISO 639/RA-JAC will be closely > scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are > registered with IANA. > -- > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:49 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with >> MUST languagein 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) >> >> Hi - >> >>> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >>> To: "LTRU Working Group" >>> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> >>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps >> Review Team review >> .... >>> 12). In Section 2.2.1: >>> >>>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in >> the IANA >>>> registry were defined via the registration process in >> Section 3.5 >>>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An >> example >>>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The >> subtag >>>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a >> primary >>>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register >> this >>>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and >> "enochian- >>>> Latn" valid. >>>> >>>> At the time this document was created, there were no >> examples of >>>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this >> type are >>>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED >> for >>>> registration with ISO 639, >>> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an >> attempt to >>> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might >> be >>> known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to >> the >>> Language Subtag Expert. >>> >>>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag >> Reviewer >>>> before they are registered with IANA. >> ... >> >> As a technical contributor, I can agree with this proposal, as long >> as the case >> of non-response or negative response is covered. >> >> Randy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 00:17:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A97D3A6A7B for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:17:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.54 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.54 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.241, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mlzGEwezUo-w for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43A7A3A698D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.47) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:17:54 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.47]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:17:54 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Randy Presuhn Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:17:53 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primarysubtag case (Apps #12-b) Thread-Index: AcnoywixK/vPHVcPR3mMNx79Kv6NYQABk/8w Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00e501c9e8b4$ce7c9c00$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A2E0002.9080105@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2E0002.9080105@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primarysubtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:17:50 -0000 +1 Even if the text doesn't force this, de facto practice on the IETF-language= s list will drive process that way (and that doesn't conflict with any proc= edural requirements stipulated in this doc). Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma= rtin J. D=FCrst" Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:24 PM To: Randy Presuhn Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary= subtag case (Apps #12-b) co-chair hat off: I fully agree with Randy. Bothering the IETF list with a last call on a=20 single entry in a registry, for what will be a very marginal case, is=20 going to upset more than it's going to help. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 12:46, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Tea= m review > ... >> 12). In Section 2.2.1: >> >>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA >>> registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3= .5 >>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example >>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primar= y >>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochia= n- >>> Latn" valid. >>> >>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples o= f >>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>> registration with ISO 639, >> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to >> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be >> known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the >> Language Subtag Expert. >> >>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >>> before they are registered with IANA. >> This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, >> such as IETF LC. > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > Requests for new primary language subtags are, particularly if > 4645bis is approved, likely to be very infrequent and rather > specialized. If the corresponding request for a new language > code were rejected by the ISO 639 folk, then the odds are very good > that we'd be talking about a particularly fuzzy case of language vs. > variety, a particularly dead language or some other case that > will revolve around (1) specialized needs of those who want to > be able to tag material in this language and (2) some linguistic > argumentation about whether this can reasonably be considered > to be a variety of something already registered. In either case, > I'm *highly* sceptical that much taking it to an IETF last call would > be enlightening or useful. The people who care about such > things are either already on the ietf-languages@iana.org list, > or will be recruited to that list by the party seeking the > registration. To cite a past example, I cannot imagine how > having an IETF last call on Enochian would have been > helpful to anyone. > > Consequently, I am strongly opposed to making this change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --=20 #-# Martin J. D=FCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 00:21:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7498E3A6AB5 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.250, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0-K6suPuDuT for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B8A73A6A35 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n597L4UP007130 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:21:04 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 1248_175bfe70_54c6_11de_96ce_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:21:03 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:33010) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:19:17 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0D51.7050408@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:20:49 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <002401c9e8a6$78aba5e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <007801c9e8ad$0bbd2060$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <007801c9e8ad$0bbd2060$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:21:00 -0000 co-chair hat off: I'm fully with Randy on this. There is no need for a change. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 11:50, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 13). In Section 3.5: >> >>> While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable >>> and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts >>> to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry >>> itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >>> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions >>> in Section 3.4. >> Suggested replacement for the paragraph: >> >> The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be >> stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are >> permitted with adequate justification. However, addition >> of translations or transliterations are not considered >> sufficient justification for corrections or updates. >> >> Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is >> trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. > > As a technical contributor... > While I recognized that the proposed text is well-meant, I cannot support > it. It introduces a technical change to what the WG had agreed. It > changes advice ("probably frowned upon") into a prohibition ("are not > considered sufficient"). > > Furthermore, I would argue that the use of MAY is in this case correct - > it's used to describe an optional activity, and those taking part in or > relying on this procedure must account for both the possibility that > the action can occur, and the possibility that it might not occur. > > Consequently, I do not agree with making the proposed change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 00:21:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 663E73A698D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.52 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.52 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.221, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d34l6Tvdyy2Z for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57AEF3A6A35 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:49 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:49 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:21:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST languagein 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acno0ksQj6o4Lfx3SmeHYcQqYEsa2QAAKZBQ Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00ec01c9e8b5$349870e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC92E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E0C06.7040709@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2E0C06.7040709@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US 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score=0.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.069, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Mo158B77qC4 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73DF53A6BBF for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n597NOdY009779 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:23:24 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 265a_6ae2f01c_54c6_11de_b344_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:23:24 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:33011) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:21:37 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E0DDD.7030800@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:23:09 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001001c9e8a4$4992ae40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 07:23:20 -0000 co-chair hat off: I concur with Randy. There is a subtle but important distinction between 'code' and 'subtag', even if it can be seen as a distinction of role for the same string in many cases. Changing this to different terminology would also involve a lot of work all over the document to make sure we change things in exactly the right instances. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 12:21, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 10). In Section 2.2 >> >>> o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by >>> hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- >>> Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in >>> single quotes ('Hant'). >>> >>> o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which >>> are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an >>> [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script >>> subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this >>> document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). >> These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate >> categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". >> Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > Yes. > > The claim that "code" is a subset of "subtag" is in my opinion incorrect. > The various "source" standards we use define a whole bunch of strings, > which they sometimes refer to as "codes" and sometimes as "code elements". > For sanity, and with no loss of clarity, we refer to those individual strings > as "codes." The Language Subtag Registry contains information corresponding > to specific subtags. The strings used to encode them happen to be the > same as the strings used for some codes in those source standards. > Maintaining the distinction is important, particularly in cases where the > source standard (e.g., through re-assignment) can potentially diverge from > the registry's usage of a particular string. > > Consequently, I think the document should be left as it is in this regard. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Tue Jun 9 01:31:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DDF228C197 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_75=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yLpagreF0N5c for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29AD28C198 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:34227 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MDwk6-0007k9-66; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:31:41 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:31:26 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Martin J. =?ISO-8859-1?B?RPxyc3Q=?=" , Peter Constable Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) Thread-Index: Acno3K2dTTwU6MVOjUyflqKfNTH4iQ== In-Reply-To: <4A2E0A13.40300@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MDwk6-0007k9-66. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1MDwk6-0007k9-66 b3317ebf393d4b9e6b99bcc2f554fc8d Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:31:43 -0000 Just that I thought that the original comment was (as someone else called it) "excessively finicky". I don't oppose the change. /kent k Den 2009-06-09 09.06, skrev "Martin J. D=FCrst" : > Just to be complete with the record, I have found that Kent was against using > the new text. However, I don't think this changes the current consensus > resolution (Kent, if you think differently, please say so). Regards, > Martin. On 2009/06/09 15:16, Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > co-chair and shepherd > hats on: > > I have seen 5 people in favor of adopting the new text, and > nobody > against. I think that's a very clear expression of preferences. > > I > herewith would like to ask the editors to adopt the new text, and > Randy to > close this issue in the tracker. > > Regards, Martin. > > On 2009/06/09 14:48, > Peter Constable wrote: >> +1 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: > ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >> Of Doug > Ewell >> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:03 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) >> >> Randy > Presuhn wrote: >> >>>> This > document replaces [RFC4646]. This document, in combination >>>> with [RFC4647] > replaces [RFC3066] and its predecessor [RFC1766]. >>>> For a list of changes > in this document, see Section 8. >>> As a technical contributor, I have no > objection to this proposed >>> change. >> >> I agree, especially since the > proposed replacement text is already in >> front of us and there should be no > need to waste time debating it or >> wordsmithing it further. >> >> -- >> Doug > Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 >> > http://www.ewellic.org >> > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html >> > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =96 >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> > Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> > Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin > J. D=FCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# > http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp > mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 01:35:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761AC28C189 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:35:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YggrSVMK1HYB for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:35:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1CC928C188 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:35:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n598ZKOs017253 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:35:20 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 215b_776c12dc_54d0_11de_8cbe_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:35:20 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:52014) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:33:33 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:35:05 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:35:27 -0000 Hello Addison, others, On 2009/06/09 7:53, Phillips, Addison wrote: > I think this is a potentially serious problem, although we did address it during document development (of RFC 4646). Some of the changes in this document have watered down the way we addressed it in that document. There is also a general recognition that mechanically retrieving the registry is a Bad Thing. > >> 14). Language Tag validity verification requires applications to >> keep up-to-date copies of the Language Tag registry. > > Actually, this is false. The validity text is careful to say "as of the particular registry date" when referring to validity. There is an expectation that most implementation will use a specific registry version. I think the problem here is with "there is an expectation". Of course we expect people to understand things our way, and to be reasonable. Yet still that's not always the case. An example story can be found at http://www.w3.org/blog/systeam/2008/02/08/w3c_s_excessive_dtd_traffic. Also, I know that W3C staff at one point was contacted by staff from the Unicode consortium about a similar issue. >> Such applications might be designed to automatically fetch new versions of the registry. >> This has three problems: >> I). IANA is generally not happy about applications automatically >> downloading registries, unless data is located in DNS. This is >> primarily to scaling concerns. > > Obviously this would be a concern. In fact, Section 6 (Security Considerations) says: > > -- > Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks. > -- > > This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an oversight. I actually thought it said both. Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently last paragraph in section 6: >>>> Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag Extensions Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks. >>>> >> II). There is also the issue of when application should be fetching >> the >> updated registry. I.e. what is the mechanism(s) for determining >> when to fetch. > > Usually: when you make a new or updated version of your software. Infrequent polling of the registry itself would also not be harmful. Neither would monitoring the list of registration forms (which IANA archives separately). > > However, there is also a specific mechanism in Section 5.1 for knowing when a change is made: > > -- > Developers who are dependent upon the language subtag registry sometimes would like to be informed of changes in the registry so that they can update their implementations. When any change is made to the language subtag registry, IANA will send an announcement message to "ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org" (a self-subscribing list that only IANA can post to). > -- I think this is well and good for the scenarios you are used to, similar to shrink-wrapped software. But somebody may think that they want to be more up-to-date, and build in some automatic updating mechanism into their software. >> III). The registry format is not designed for figuring out the >> minimal >> list of changes between any 2 versions. For example there is no way >> of only fetching changes since a given File-Date value. > > No, there isn't. The records do not contain a "last modified" date. Is this necessarily important? When I update one of my implementations, I just reparse the latest registry. Stability rules exist to protect my doing it this way. Since the records are not in any particular order, there isn't necessarily utility to using diff to reconstruct changes either. > >> >> BTW, are people aware of implementations that try to download >> Language Tag registry automatically? > > Yes, see above. > >> >> While I don't expect this issue to be fully fixed at such a late >> stage, >> it needs to be discussed in the document. Some thoughts about what >> can be said on the topic: >> >> Regarding I): application should be advised against frequent >> polling of the registry. For example: >> >> The registries specified in this document are not >> suitable for applications that require real-time access >> to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. > > There are some notes already in place. It was considered during document development (of 4646). There is no evidence, btw, that implementations do rely on active access and, with the size expansion envisioned with this document, it seems less likely that an implementer would want to create such a linkage. I agree that there is no evidence that a language tag implementation currently does frequent downloads. But there is evidence for other cases of frequent downloads, where the frequency of changes is way smaller or non-existent. I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as follows: >>>> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents changes only occasionally. Changes are announced to ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org. Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full registry. >>>> >> It might be nice to have the File-Date value available as a >> separate >> short piece of data (a separate web page on IANA's website, a thing >> in >> DNS, etc. >> But even with existing registry format it might be possible to >> minimize >> load on IANA's website by describing how HTTP/1.1 features can be >> used >> to only download necessary information, such as downloading the >> beginning of the registry which contains the File-Date field. > > One can subscribed to ietf-languages-announcements@. Also one can look at the list of registrations (http://www.iana.org/assignments/lang-subtags-templates/index.html). > > >> Regarding II): I think this needs some advice on which operations >> need and which don't need fetching of the registry. > > *No* operations depend on fetching the registry at runtime. Only validation and canonicalization depend on a copy of the registry being available. Wording the I-D is always in terms of "as of a particular registry date". > >> Also this might mention that any application keeping a copy of the >> registry needs to preserve the File-Date value in some form. > > It is actually already a requirement of being a validating processor. Section 2.2.9 says: > > -- > An implementation that claims to be validating MUST: > // ... > # Specify the particular registry date for which the implementation performs validation of subtags. > -- > > That is the File-Date. Note that the expectation (but not requirement) is that validating implementations are tied to a registry version, not obtaining it mechanically. > >> Regarding III): I think it is Ok for now to explicitly acknowledge >> that this is an issue. >> >> It might also be worth discussing how the registry format >> facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. > > It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registry, the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules generally prevent breaking changes. I think what Alex means is that the diff would significantly reduce the amount of data that needs to be downloaded to update the registry to a new version. Overall, I agree that we have discussed this issue before, but I also understand that Alex is concerned, probably not only by himself, but also about the fact that his fellow IESG members might easily bring up this issue as a "discuss". So I think it's better to have it clearly documented in the security section. Regards, Martin. > Addison > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 01:39:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BEB28C182 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:39:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.27 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.27 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.060, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q8HfYgD-C2iE for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 535723A6870 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n598dQ6j020361 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:39:26 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 2843_0a162884_54d1_11de_b24d_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:39:26 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:40133) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:37:39 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E1FAF.7020209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:39:11 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001001c9e8a4$4992ae40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:39:22 -0000 co-chair and shepherd hat on: On 2009/06/09 15:51, Peter Constable wrote: > Alexey already replied to Kent that he was OK with no change for this issue: Thanks for reminding me, I somehow missed that. I also noted consensus moving that way, so I'd like to ask Randy to close this issue with no change. Regards, Martin. > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alexey Melnikov > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:50 AM > To: Kent Karlsson > > [snip] > >>> I suggest no change. >>> >> Ok with me. > > > I concur with no change on this. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:22 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) > > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 10). In Section 2.2 >> >>> o "Subtag" refers to a specific section of a tag, delimited by >>> hyphen, such as the subtags 'zh', 'Hant', and 'CN' in the tag "zh- >>> Hant-CN". Examples of subtags in this document are enclosed in >>> single quotes ('Hant'). >>> >>> o "Code" refers to values defined in external standards (and which >>> are used as subtags in this document). For example, 'Hant' is an >>> [ISO15924] script code that was used to define the 'Hant' script >>> subtag for use in a language tag. Examples of codes in this >>> document are enclosed in single quotes ('en', 'Hant'). >> These definitions make it sound that "code" and "subtag" are separate >> categories. But "code" is a subset of "subtag". >> Is there a need to have both "codes" and "subtags" in this document? > ... > > As a technical contributor... > > Yes. > > The claim that "code" is a subset of "subtag" is in my opinion incorrect. > The various "source" standards we use define a whole bunch of strings, > which they sometimes refer to as "codes" and sometimes as "code elements". > For sanity, and with no loss of clarity, we refer to those individual strings > as "codes." The Language Subtag Registry contains information corresponding > to specific subtags. The strings used to encode them happen to be the > same as the strings used for some codes in those source standards. > Maintaining the distinction is important, particularly in cases where the > source standard (e.g., through re-assignment) can potentially diverge from > the registry's usage of a particular string. > > Consequently, I think the document should be left as it is in this regard. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 01:41:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F2063A6CB0 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:41:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.266 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.266 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EzAtBnPO3wy5 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DE0E3A6E15 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n598fprv019901 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:41:51 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 2b45_606cdb7e_54d1_11de_99b0_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:41:51 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:40134) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:40:04 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E2040.6040403@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:41:36 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:41:47 -0000 co-chair and shepherd hat on: I have counted 6 people against some changes on this issue, and nobody really for, so I think we have consensus. Randy, can you please close this issue appropriately? Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 16:03, Peter Constable wrote: > I also prefer to see no change. > > If some change _must_ be made, I would make it a minimalist change, such as adding the following single line right after figure 1: > > "Details regarding the various elements that make up language tags, including valid sources for subtags, are discussed in Section 2.2." > > Again, my first choice is to leave things as they are. > > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:01 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) > > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 9). Several elements of the syntax in Section 2.1 are not complete >> because there are extensive discussions elsewhere in the document that >> describe the actual, and considerably restrictive, rules for valid >> elements. The relevant productions would be much more useful to the >> reader if they cross-referenced the defining sections (e.g. in ABNF >> comments). Specific and important examples are that the "extlang" >> production should point to Section 2.2.2 and the "irregular" and >> "regular" ones should explicitly indicate that the preferred forms are >> found in the registry in the "Preferred-value" entry for the relevant tag. > > As a technical contributor... > > I think adding this additional material to the ABNF would muddy > the distinctions spelled out in 2.2.9. Also, all the relevant elaborations > are in the next (i.e. 2.2.*) sub-section, so it's not as though the > reader is left in suspense for any great length of time. Consequently, > I do not think that it would be helpful to make this change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Tue Jun 9 02:52:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E90D3A67F2 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 02:52:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.639 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.639 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.736, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6BpQ31HFh3Wq for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 02:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5005B3A67AE for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 02:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33162 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MDxzr-0006U4-96; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:52:02 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:51:49 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Martin J. =?ISO-8859-1?B?RPxyc3Q=?=" , Doug Ewell Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value Thread-Index: Acno5+hYL8GZpwS3wUK58ZIvA2GaVA== In-Reply-To: <4A2E0966.2010404@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MDxzr-0006U4-96. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MDxzr-0006U4-96 1242f3504171a6fd172adc6b3ea4e713 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:52:31 -0000 Den 2009-06-09 09.04, skrev "Martin J. D=FCrst" : > > Something like "IANA MUST process only one batch per day, to avoid > > File-Date ambiguity problems"? >=20 > I think this goes into the right direction, but "File-Date ambiguity > problems" will raise questions with our readers. >=20 > What about: >=20 > >>>> > To make sure that updates to the registry, and different versions of the > registry, can be distinguished by only checking their File-Date, IANA > will publish at most one new version of the registry per day, and will > make sure that the File-Dates in subsequent publications of the registry > are strictly in temporal order. > >>>> Then we would have a somewhat complicated rule for handling File-Date (as in the current draft, which is already not followed) and *then* say "by the way, that does not really work, we need to add this extra complication too"= . As I mentioned before, I'd like something much more straightforward, and indeed what seems to be the actual case already. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DOLD TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the most recent modification date in the [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., Ed. and C. Newman, "Date and Time on the Internet: Timestamps," July 2002.) "full-date" format: included in any request to insert or modify records will be a new File-Date record indicating the acceptance date of the record. This record is to be placed first in the registry, replacing the existing File-Date record. In the even= t that the File-Date record present in the registry has a later date than the record being inserted or modified, then the latest (most recent) record wil= l be preserved. IANA should attempt to process multiple registration requests in order according to the File-Date in the form, since one registration could otherwise cause a more recent change to be overwritten. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND OLD TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPROPOSED TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the most recent modification date. The date format SHALL be the "full-date" format of [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. Newman, "Date and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", July 2002). The date SHALL be the date that version of the registry was first published by IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of the registry published in a day. A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to insert or modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records in the request= . =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND PROPOSED TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It appears that this is already current practice. /kent k From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 03:04:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D6A03A6AFC for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:04:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.263 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.263 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Knvd81CKNGme for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341073A68A6 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 03:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n59A3uoT022067 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:03:56 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 39c3_d811b8f6_54dc_11de_a6ef_001d096c566a; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:03:56 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:45182) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:02:09 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:03:41 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kent Karlsson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:04:08 -0000 Hello Kent, Many thanks for providing actual new text. I'm fine with that, except for a little nit below. On 2009/06/09 18:51, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Den 2009-06-09 09.04, skrev "Martin J. Dürst": > As I mentioned before, I'd like something much more straightforward, > and indeed what seems to be the actual case already. > ======PROPOSED TEXT================= > > Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File-Date' > record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the most recent > modification date. The date format SHALL be the "full-date" format of > [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. Newman, "Date and Time on the Internet: > Timestamps", July 2002). The date SHALL be the date that version of the > registry was first published by IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of > the registry published in a day. > > A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to insert or > modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records in the request. > > ======END PROPOSED TEXT============= > > It appears that this is already current practice. "the date that version" is a bit difficult to read, and may lead to misunderstandings. I propose to make this "the date on which that version". The new text would be: ======PROPOSED TEXT================= Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect the most recent modification date. The date format SHALL be the "full-date" format of [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. Newman, "Date and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", July 2002). The date SHALL be the date on which that version of the registry was first published by IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of the registry published in a day. A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to insert or modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records in the request. ======END PROPOSED TEXT============= Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 04:17:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEBFF3A6A6F for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:17:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TmlxA-jeI9dv for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B6D33A67A3 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 04:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n59BHekG007542 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:17:43 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3b06_254df03a_54e7_11de_91ba_001d096c5782; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:17:40 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:58116) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:15:54 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2E44C5.9090809@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:17:25 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: [Ltru] Schedule for this week X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:17:50 -0000 Dear LTRU WG participants, Our AD has indicated that he would highly prefer to get a new draft by Friday morning, UK time. I think it is possible for us to finish off all the issues we currently have, but only if everybody is very careful to comment in the right thread, to propose full new text, and so on. In the last few days, everybody has been doing a great job at this, so I'm quite optimistic! Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From doug@ewellic.org Tue Jun 9 06:04:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29CD53A6A16 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:04:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.149 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.149 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.450, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qwYlHvAIKv7b for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 284873A68A4 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 22256 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 13:04:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.87) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 13:04:23 -0000 Message-ID: <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:04:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:04:19 -0000 I think Kent's proposed text, together with Martin's slight edit, is excellent. It reflects current IANA practice, which works well and is really better than what 4646 says, and it provides a justification for the File-Date records in the replacement records even though IANA doesn't use them verbatim. Let's go with it. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ > ======PROPOSED TEXT================= > > Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the > 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect > the most recent modification date. The date format SHALL be the > "full-date" format of [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. Newman, "Date > and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", July 2002). The date SHALL be > the date on which that version of the registry was first published by > IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of the registry published in > a day. > > A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to insert > or modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records in the > request. > > ======END PROPOSED TEXT============= From doug@ewellic.org Tue Jun 9 06:08:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7CA3A6CCA for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:08:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.178 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.178 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.420, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tUDAbGrENZan for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BD5D3A67B4 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9302 invoked from network); 9 Jun 2009 13:08:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.85) with ESMTP; 09 Jun 2009 13:08:48 -0000 Message-ID: <1DEF760F8B9D4E16AEA5B9C79DE0F2F9@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:08:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Code/code element/codet X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:08:44 -0000 Lang Gérard wrote: > 3-What would be the drama to forge "codet" (that is the french word > for "code element") as a new english word to replace "code element" ? I think making up our own terminology at this point would be about the worst thing we could do. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 06:52:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5AAA3A69F2 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:52:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.653 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.653 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.054, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DJ1Sckjk5YFb for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D8A3A6996 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:52:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:52:37 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:52:37 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:52:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) Thread-Index: AcnopjGALKZicIBFRyOBLj2Gfyqt5wAYyK+A Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:52:32 -0000 IETF LC is not needed. We already have an adequate proposal, review and app= eal process. I recommend no change. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:01 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary sub= tag case (Apps #12-b) Hi - Please note that this is the second half of apps review comment #12. Please do not confuse it with the first half of that same comment. > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team= review ... > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.= 5 > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian= - > > Latn" valid. > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, > such as IETF LC. ... This is issue #60 in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/60 Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 06:54:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE60F3A6996 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4lgDUZAdbom7 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13F8B3A687D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:44 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:44 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:54:42 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnopiPp0Tb6lhcjQ+Kamlu4oCaQqwAY5+nw Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:54:39 -0000 I've commented on this already: I don't see a need for any change. -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:57 PM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language = in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Hi - Note well that there are two very distinct issues in Apps #12. This thread is the first of the two. PLEASE do not confuse them in your followups! > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team= review .... > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.= 5 > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian= - > > Latn" valid. > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert. > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. ... This is filed as issue #59 in the tracker. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/59 Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 06:59:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16283A687D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.646 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.646 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hR58j4iPIaWr for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F40193A6819 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.40) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:59:32 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c106.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.40]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:59:32 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:59:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value Thread-Index: AcnpAuQOOPNlQDx8TaO8XU2VdYKRXwAB5mwg Message-ID: References: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 13:59:28 -0000 KzENCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERvdWcgRXdl bGwNClNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIEp1bmUgMDksIDIwMDkgNjowNCBBTQ0KVG86IExUUlUgV29ya2lu ZyBHcm91cA0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBJc3N1ZSAjNDM6IEFEICMxMCAtIHNlY3Rpb24g NS4xIHZzIDMuMiBvbiBGaWxlLURhdGUgdmFsdWUNCg0KSSB0aGluayBLZW50J3MgcHJvcG9zZWQg dGV4dCwgdG9nZXRoZXIgd2l0aCBNYXJ0aW4ncyBzbGlnaHQgZWRpdCwgaXMgDQpleGNlbGxlbnQu ICBJdCByZWZsZWN0cyBjdXJyZW50IElBTkEgcHJhY3RpY2UsIHdoaWNoIHdvcmtzIHdlbGwgYW5k IGlzIA0KcmVhbGx5IGJldHRlciB0aGFuIHdoYXQgNDY0NiBzYXlzLCBhbmQgaXQgcHJvdmlkZXMg YSBqdXN0aWZpY2F0aW9uIGZvciANCnRoZSBGaWxlLURhdGUgcmVjb3JkcyBpbiB0aGUgcmVwbGFj ZW1lbnQgcmVjb3JkcyBldmVuIHRob3VnaCBJQU5BIA0KZG9lc24ndCB1c2UgdGhlbSB2ZXJiYXRp bS4gIExldCdzIGdvIHdpdGggaXQuDQoNCi0tDQpEb3VnIEV3ZWxsICAqICBUaG9ybnRvbiwgQ29s b3JhZG8sIFVTQSAgKiAgUkZDIDQ2NDUgICogIFVUTiAjMTQNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuZXdlbGxpYy5v cmcNCmh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1jaGFydGVyLmh0bWwN Cmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuYWx2ZXN0cmFuZC5uby9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2lldGYtbGFuZ3VhZ2Vz ICDLhg0KDQoNCj4gPT09PT09UFJPUE9TRUQgVEVYVD09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09DQo+DQo+IFdo ZW5ldmVyIGFuIGVudHJ5IGlzIGNyZWF0ZWQgb3IgbW9kaWZpZWQgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5LCB0 aGUNCj4gJ0ZpbGUtRGF0ZScgcmVjb3JkIGF0IHRoZSBzdGFydCBvZiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgaXMg dXBkYXRlZCB0byByZWZsZWN0DQo+IHRoZSBtb3N0IHJlY2VudCBtb2RpZmljYXRpb24gZGF0ZS4g VGhlIGRhdGUgZm9ybWF0IFNIQUxMIGJlIHRoZQ0KPiAiZnVsbC1kYXRlIiBmb3JtYXQgb2YgW1JG QzMzMzldIChLbHluZSwgRy4sIGVkLiBhbmQgQy4gTmV3bWFuLCAiRGF0ZQ0KPiBhbmQgVGltZSBv biB0aGUgSW50ZXJuZXQ6IFRpbWVzdGFtcHMiLCBKdWx5IDIwMDIpLiBUaGUgZGF0ZSBTSEFMTCBi ZQ0KPiB0aGUgZGF0ZSBvbiB3aGljaCB0aGF0IHZlcnNpb24gb2YgdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IHdhcyBm aXJzdCBwdWJsaXNoZWQgYnkNCj4gSUFOQS4gVGhlcmUgU0hBTEwgYmUgYXQgbW9zdCBvbmUgdmVy c2lvbiBvZiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgcHVibGlzaGVkIGluDQo+IGEgZGF5Lg0KPg0KPiBBIEZpbGUt RGF0ZSByZWNvcmQgaXMgYWxzbyBpbmNsdWRlZCBpbiBlYWNoIHJlcXVlc3QgdG8gSUFOQSB0byBp bnNlcnQNCj4gb3IgbW9kaWZ5IHJlY29yZHMgaW5kaWNhdGluZyB0aGUgYWNjZXB0YW5jZSBkYXRl IG9mIHRoZSByZWNvcmRzIGluIHRoZQ0KPiByZXF1ZXN0Lg0KPg0KPiA9PT09PT1FTkQgUFJPUE9T RUQgVEVYVD09PT09PT09PT09PT0NCg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== From addison@amazon.com Tue Jun 9 07:45:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4C573A684B for ; 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Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:44:52 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:44:52 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:44:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value Thread-Index: AcnpAuQOOPNlQDx8TaO8XU2VdYKRXwAB5mwgAAGOw6A= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECBDE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:45:09 -0000 KzENCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0gTGFiMTI2 DQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBhcmNo aXRlY3R1cmUuDQoNCg0KPiAtLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBsdHJ1 LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uDQo+IEJl aGFsZiBPZiBQZXRlciBDb25zdGFibGUNCj4gU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgSnVuZSAwOSwgMjAwOSA3 OjAwIEFNDQo+IFRvOiBEb3VnIEV3ZWxsOyBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4gU3ViamVjdDog UmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBJc3N1ZSAjNDM6IEFEICMxMCAtIHNlY3Rpb24gNS4xIHZzIDMuMiBvbiBGaWxl LQ0KPiBEYXRlIHZhbHVlDQo+IA0KPiArMQ0KPiANCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0t LS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGll dGYub3JnXSBPbg0KPiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgRG91ZyBFd2VsbA0KPiBTZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBKdW5l IDA5LCAyMDA5IDY6MDQgQU0NCj4gVG86IExUUlUgV29ya2luZyBHcm91cA0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBS ZTogW0x0cnVdIElzc3VlICM0MzogQUQgIzEwIC0gc2VjdGlvbiA1LjEgdnMgMy4yIG9uIEZpbGUt DQo+IERhdGUgdmFsdWUNCj4gDQo+IEkgdGhpbmsgS2VudCdzIHByb3Bvc2VkIHRleHQsIHRvZ2V0 aGVyIHdpdGggTWFydGluJ3Mgc2xpZ2h0IGVkaXQsDQo+IGlzDQo+IGV4Y2VsbGVudC4gIEl0IHJl ZmxlY3RzIGN1cnJlbnQgSUFOQSBwcmFjdGljZSwgd2hpY2ggd29ya3Mgd2VsbCBhbmQNCj4gaXMN Cj4gcmVhbGx5IGJldHRlciB0aGFuIHdoYXQgNDY0NiBzYXlzLCBhbmQgaXQgcHJvdmlkZXMgYSBq dXN0aWZpY2F0aW9uDQo+IGZvcg0KPiB0aGUgRmlsZS1EYXRlIHJlY29yZHMgaW4gdGhlIHJlcGxh Y2VtZW50IHJlY29yZHMgZXZlbiB0aG91Z2ggSUFOQQ0KPiBkb2Vzbid0IHVzZSB0aGVtIHZlcmJh dGltLiAgTGV0J3MgZ28gd2l0aCBpdC4NCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+IERvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3Ju dG9uLCBDb2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNA0KPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3 LmV3ZWxsaWMub3JnDQo+IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cxLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwuY2hhcnRlcnMvbHRydS1j aGFydGVyLmh0bWwNCj4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8v aWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFnZXMgIMuGDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gPiA9PT09PT1QUk9QT1NFRCBURVhUPT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT0NCj4gPg0KPiA+IFdoZW5ldmVyIGFuIGVudHJ5IGlzIGNyZWF0ZWQgb3IgbW9k aWZpZWQgaW4gdGhlIHJlZ2lzdHJ5LCB0aGUNCj4gPiAnRmlsZS1EYXRlJyByZWNvcmQgYXQgdGhl IHN0YXJ0IG9mIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBpcyB1cGRhdGVkIHRvDQo+IHJlZmxlY3QNCj4gPiB0aGUg bW9zdCByZWNlbnQgbW9kaWZpY2F0aW9uIGRhdGUuIFRoZSBkYXRlIGZvcm1hdCBTSEFMTCBiZSB0 aGUNCj4gPiAiZnVsbC1kYXRlIiBmb3JtYXQgb2YgW1JGQzMzMzldIChLbHluZSwgRy4sIGVkLiBh bmQgQy4gTmV3bWFuLA0KPiAiRGF0ZQ0KPiA+IGFuZCBUaW1lIG9uIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldDogVGlt ZXN0YW1wcyIsIEp1bHkgMjAwMikuIFRoZSBkYXRlIFNIQUxMDQo+IGJlDQo+ID4gdGhlIGRhdGUg b24gd2hpY2ggdGhhdCB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSB3YXMgZmlyc3QNCj4gcHVibGlz aGVkIGJ5DQo+ID4gSUFOQS4gVGhlcmUgU0hBTEwgYmUgYXQgbW9zdCBvbmUgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0 aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkNCj4gcHVibGlzaGVkIGluDQo+ID4gYSBkYXkuDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBBIEZpbGUt RGF0ZSByZWNvcmQgaXMgYWxzbyBpbmNsdWRlZCBpbiBlYWNoIHJlcXVlc3QgdG8gSUFOQSB0bw0K PiBpbnNlcnQNCj4gPiBvciBtb2RpZnkgcmVjb3JkcyBpbmRpY2F0aW5nIHRoZSBhY2NlcHRhbmNl IGRhdGUgb2YgdGhlIHJlY29yZHMNCj4gaW4gdGhlDQo+ID4gcmVxdWVzdC4NCj4gPg0KPiA+ID09 PT09PUVORCBQUk9QT1NFRCBURVhUPT09PT09PT09PT09PQ0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4g THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0 cnUNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4g THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 08:35:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 214A43A6E49 for ; 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c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=sXpUx7lpiWPZ6UP4LcXFZS9sQ6FH0qWmnbErcs/M/nSOVF7pmVSVMtF4Q5LmvLcbNs NGf/BYhmE2GzykhDX+FxN9krmyq19PYYrTgERr2ClV117IViKEMePVXxaNen+u5LTFC2 6t5jw+jdbsAYlDZK+LUMCGX4BTNFj8mgXONdY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.194.1 with SMTP id r1mr89584wff.122.1244561735979; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:35:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECBDE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECBDE@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:35:35 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: a6661e51e3fa35e1 Message-ID: <30b660a20906090835p179cb614n83fa2ddb4d737eab@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd14ed82c9292046bec1cba Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:35:33 -0000 --000e0cd14ed82c9292046bec1cba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Mark On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 07:44, Phillips, Addison wrote: > +1 > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Peter Constable > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 7:00 AM > > To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File- > > Date value > > > > +1 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Doug Ewell > > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:04 AM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File- > > Date value > > > > I think Kent's proposed text, together with Martin's slight edit, > > is > > excellent. It reflects current IANA practice, which works well and > > is > > really better than what 4646 says, and it provides a justification > > for > > the File-Date records in the replacement records even though IANA > > doesn't use them verbatim. Let's go with it. > > > > -- > > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > > http://www.ewellic.org > > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =CB=86 > > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPROPOSED TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the > > > 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to > > reflect > > > the most recent modification date. The date format SHALL be the > > > "full-date" format of [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. Newman, > > "Date > > > and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", July 2002). The date SHALL > > be > > > the date on which that version of the registry was first > > published by > > > IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of the registry > > published in > > > a day. > > > > > > A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to > > insert > > > or modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records > > in the > > > request. > > > > > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND PROPOSED TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --000e0cd14ed82c9292046bec1cba Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1

Mark


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 07:44, Phillips, = Addison <addison= @amazon.com> wrote:
+1

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Peter Constable
> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 7:00 AM
> To: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File- > Date value
>
> +1
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Doug Ewell
> Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:04 AM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File- > Date value
>
> I think Kent's proposed text, together with Martin's slight ed= it,
> is
> excellent. =C2=A0It reflects current IANA practice, which works well a= nd
> is
> really better than what 4646 says, and it provides a justification
> for
> the File-Date records in the replacement records even though IANA
> doesn't use them verbatim. =C2=A0Let's go with it.
>
> --
> Doug Ewell =C2=A0* =C2=A0Thornton, Colorado, USA =C2=A0* =C2=A0RFC 464= 5 =C2=A0* =C2=A0UTN #14
> http://www.ewelli= c.org
> http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =C2=A0=CB=86
>
>
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DPROPOSED TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >
> > Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the
> > 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is update= d to
> reflect
> > the most recent modification date. The date format SHALL be the > > "full-date" format of [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. = Newman,
> "Date
> > and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", July 2002). The date = SHALL
> be
> > the date on which that version of the registry was first
> published by
> > IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of the registry
> published in
> > a day.
> >
> > A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to > insert
> > or modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records > in the
> > request.
> >
> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DEND PROPOSED TEXT=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
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ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--000e0cd14ed82c9292046bec1cba-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 08:35:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 646B028C163 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:35:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.476 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.476 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFWVSSmPFjx3 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:35:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-px0-f176.google.com (mail-px0-f176.google.com [209.85.216.176]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 014703A68D8 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-px0-f176.google.com with SMTP id 6so62946pxi.29 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:35:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=N78YTADNMJUfkI8pa/KGUr+s7Bs8WrHGGLIvQ4asZGc=; b=NF7ooGtCQ6c6PXgBJM3K9X2DNWI0udJU3BWgtS4mdSIGnMqtRUCPnLrBN+m5GgA7KS z7sxlsHQCiOCPz/WVfypxFnixz4LQkX0WLw8lKfvEGOEMNLKGNP+rhilv/g9HcTZ3CRK GgxtS5N5T7xNRvF+B65G/9DuSrnu1w5GyPAtI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=JzSfAY3W2qhG1WD1Yzdzi7Nb0zpc8wdbnUTdvKVA/iHsz5TS4z+QkFcrmDxj26GbSJ 8VLyxwGRCCoWmM97bRctZIqK5ToshznJPNSzV822PL2QS2/1u7KH4ED8wCFZaZicPHCR rsXfTZCdaamLwLy7PLAjKjHFD/2jB5ytNi6tY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.114.15 with SMTP id m15mr90103wfc.58.1244561754216; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:35:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 08:35:53 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 06a1ae4ca5b3d25a Message-ID: <30b660a20906090835m55b6da87xc34f8aee346ead3d@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: Peter Constable Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502c91f42d7f3046bec1d9a Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:35:49 -0000 --00504502c91f42d7f3046bec1d9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Mark On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 06:54, Peter Constable wrote= : > I've commented on this already: I don't see a need for any change. > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:57 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST languag= e > in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > > Hi - > > Note well that there are two very distinct issues in Apps #12. > This thread is the first of the two. PLEASE do not confuse > them in your followups! > > > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Cc: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" ; "Randy Presuhn" < > randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> > > Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM > > Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Te= am > review > .... > > 12). In Section 2.2.1: > > > > > 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IAN= A > > > registry were defined via the registration process in Section > 3.5 > > > and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An exampl= e > > > of what such a registration might include: one of the > > > grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag > > > 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a prima= ry > > > language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this > > > language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and > "enochian- > > > Latn" valid. > > > > > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples = of > > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > > registration with ISO 639, > > > > I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to > > register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > > Language Subtag Expert. > > > > > and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewe= r > > > before they are registered with IANA. > ... > > This is filed as issue #59 in the tracker. > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/59 > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --00504502c91f42d7f3046bec1d9a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1
Mark


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 06:54, Peter Cons= table <peter= con@microsoft.com> wrote:
I've commented on this already: I don't see a need for any change.<= br>

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:57 PM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace = RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

Hi -

Note well that there are two very distinct issues in Apps #12.
This thread is the first of the two. =C2=A0PLEASE do not confuse
them in your followups!

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; "Randy Presuhn" <= randy_presuhn@mindspring.co= m>
> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM
> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review T= eam review
....
> 12). In Section 2.2.1:
>
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A05. =C2=A0Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters i= n length in the IANA
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0registry were defined via the registra= tion process in Section 3.5
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and MAY be used to form the primary la= nguage subtag. An example
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of what such a registration might incl= ude: one of the
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0grandfathered IANA registrations is &q= uot;i-enochian". =C2=A0The subtag
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0'enochian' could be registered= in the IANA registry as a primary
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language subtag (assuming that ISO 639= does not register this
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0language first), making tags such as &= quot;enochian-AQ" and "enochian-
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Latn" valid.
> >
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0At the time this document was created,= there were no examples of
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this kind of subtag and future registr= ations of this type are
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discouraged: primary languages are str= ongly RECOMMENDED for
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0registration with ISO 639,
>
> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt t= o
> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be > known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the > Language Subtag Expert.
>
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JAC will be closely scrutinized by the= Language Subtag Reviewer
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0before they are registered with IANA.<= br> ...

This is filed as issue #59 in the tracker.
http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/59

Randy


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Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--00504502c91f42d7f3046bec1d9a-- From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 09:20:04 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E9893A6B41 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:20:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.493 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.493 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.194, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QZbkRhE5OMIM for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E823A6784 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:20:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:20:09 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:20:08 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:20:08 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) Thread-Index: Acno3VEC6FRsbEEfRcCsKfUioVuqQgAP/vQg Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:20:04 -0000 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma= rtin J. D=FCrst" >> Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see=20 >> Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be=20 >> available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically=20 >> depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service=20 >> attacks. >> -- >> >> This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an=20 >> oversight. I actually thought it said both. > > Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently=20 > last paragraph in section 6: > > >>>> > Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag Extensions=20 > Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT=20 > mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent=20 > denial-of-service attacks. > >>>> That text looks OK to me. > I agree that there is no evidence that a language tag implementation=20 > currently does frequent downloads. But there is evidence for other cases= =20 > of frequent downloads, where the frequency of changes is way smaller or=20 > non-existent. > > I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as follows: > > >>>> > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent=20 > or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents.=20 > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others,=20 > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular=20 > registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents changes=20 > only occasionally. Changes are announced to=20 > ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org. Changes, or the absence thereof,=20 > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record at the=20 > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for=20 > downloading, without having to download the full registry. > >>>> That also looks OK to me. >>> It might also be worth discussing how the registry format >>> facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. >> >> It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registry,=20 >> the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules=20 >> generally prevent breaking changes. > I think what Alex means is that the diff would significantly reduce the=20 > amount of data that needs to be downloaded to update the registry to a=20 > new version. But if we're directing implementations not to do real-time automated downlo= ads, then it seems that the amount of data shouldn't be that much of an iss= ue. > Overall, I agree that we have discussed this issue before, but I also=20 > understand that Alex is concerned, probably not only by himself, but=20 > also about the fact that his fellow IESG members might easily bring up=20 > this issue as a "discuss". So I think it's better to have it clearly=20 > documented in the security section. That seems reasonable, and I think the text you suggested covers the key is= sues. Peter From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Tue Jun 9 09:26:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24C63A6921 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:26:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.376 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.376 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7iGUreM2SPOJ for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7CE53A67D7 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 29so40222wff.31 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=iBk/aoDf14DOKlZAsJFOlenZUid8RRylp1UuJDpdOFo=; b=YPl43KF63/wX0Cg956l0i5xQTutQSGuWnxTvjrFqQwCIu74Xwces733SlfHyDTuzdw CZWHW+5BzFtmx6TcdVnUmUWkDcXhsNyg2fN7ZfDEXjpegvJsqHCudY4Zk4BEkDdt5yXV /8CCbDJY+crPzGhRV+zW74o4PnUfE8UvxV4Fs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=Nl9IGBf48cJ+xVK3Hn91vBMjkZAml6+GZ+X54Yj9a6l1colLLVsvVvr12TR7VYU1ls ODxk2wT++fu4lBti0ms/FH6Kt+Mgy94iVqHo+tQf+LJqjlveEYk6BUYt4tWEmtB5w3kr eZZpC/gaaGyXyGiCy6N5RX6Y/tJXMYSFJymNU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.144.9 with SMTP id r9mr105250wfd.162.1244564822076; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:27:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:27:02 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 143067ceaa9d3df8 Message-ID: <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: Peter Constable Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2de441eae68046becd4bd Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:26:59 -0000 --000e0cd2de441eae68046becd4bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Peter. Mark On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 09:20, Peter Constable wrote= : > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" > > >> Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see > >> Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be > >> available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically > >> depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service > >> attacks. > >> -- > >> > >> This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an > >> oversight. I actually thought it said both. > > > > Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently > > last paragraph in section 6: > > > > >>>> > > Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag Extensions > > Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT > > mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent > > denial-of-service attacks. > > >>>> > > That text looks OK to me. > > > > > I agree that there is no evidence that a language tag implementation > > currently does frequent downloads. But there is evidence for other case= s > > of frequent downloads, where the frequency of changes is way smaller or > > non-existent. > > > > I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as follows: > > > > >>>> > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent > > or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. > > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, > > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular > > registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents changes > > only occasionally. Changes are announced to > > ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org. Changes, or the absence thereof, > > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record at the > > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for > > downloading, without having to download the full registry. > > >>>> > > That also looks OK to me. > > > >>> It might also be worth discussing how the registry format > >>> facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. > >> > >> It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registry, > >> the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules > >> generally prevent breaking changes. > > > I think what Alex means is that the diff would significantly reduce the > > amount of data that needs to be downloaded to update the registry to a > > new version. > > But if we're directing implementations not to do real-time automated > downloads, then it seems that the amount of data shouldn't be that much o= f > an issue. > > > > Overall, I agree that we have discussed this issue before, but I also > > understand that Alex is concerned, probably not only by himself, but > > also about the fact that his fellow IESG members might easily bring up > > this issue as a "discuss". So I think it's better to have it clearly > > documented in the security section. > > That seems reasonable, and I think the text you suggested covers the key > issues. > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --000e0cd2de441eae68046becd4bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Peter.

Mark


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 09:20, Peter Cons= table <peter= con@microsoft.com> wrote:
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"

>> Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see<= br> >> Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be
>> available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanical= ly
>> depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service=
>> attacks.
>> --
>>
>> This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an<= br> >> oversight. I actually thought it said both.
>
> Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently > last paragraph in section 6:
>
> >>>>
> Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag Extensions<= br> > Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT
> mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent
> denial-of-service attacks.
> >>>>

That text looks OK to me.



> I agree that there is no evidence that a language tag implementation > currently does frequent downloads. But there is evidence for other cas= es
> of frequent downloads, where the frequency of changes is way smaller o= r
> non-existent.
>
> I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as follows:<= br> >
> >>>>
> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequen= t
> or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particula= r
> registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents changes<= br> > only occasionally. Changes are announced to
> ietf-language= s-announcements@iana.org. Changes, or the absence thereof,
> can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record at the<= br> > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for > downloading, without having to download the full registry.
> >>>>

That also looks OK to me.


>>> It might also be worth discussing how the registry format
>>> facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. >>
>> It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registr= y,
>> the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules
>> generally prevent breaking changes.

> I think what Alex means is that the diff would significantly reduce th= e
> amount of data that needs to be downloaded to update the registry to a=
> new version.

But if we're directing implementations not to do real-time automa= ted downloads, then it seems that the amount of data shouldn't be that = much of an issue.


> Overall, I agree that we have discussed this issue before, but I also<= br> > understand that Alex is concerned, probably not only by himself, but > also about the fact that his fellow IESG members might easily bring up=
> this issue as a "discuss". So I think it's better to hav= e it clearly
> documented in the security section.

That seems reasonable, and I think the text you suggested covers the = key issues.



Peter

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--000e0cd2de441eae68046becd4bd-- From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 9 09:35:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25E43A6B84 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:35:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.181 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.181 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.482, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D9Jdhx0LQg-6 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB0A3A69F9 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.62) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:35:38 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.62]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:35:32 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Randy Presuhn Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:35:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acno0vDFDQa0LvspTGKTQqTyxEeQfwAS4AAw Message-ID: References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <002401c9e8a6$78aba5e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <007801c9e8ad$0bbd2060$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A2E0D51.7050408@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2E0D51.7050408@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:35:33 -0000 I also don't think a change is necessary. I agree with Randy: this use of MAY is indicating an optional activity that= must be anticipated by implementations. I think the wording could be bette= r; e.g. something along this line: "The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata correction= s or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the communi= ty, but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in th= e registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejecte= d outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in S= ection 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since modificat= ions are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable." A change to the text I've given here would be editorial, not technical, in = nature. I don't consider it necessary or highly important, but would be ope= n to that change should the editors be so inclined. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma= rtin J. D=FCrst" Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:21 AM To: Randy Presuhn Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errat= a(Apps #13) co-chair hat off: I'm fully with Randy on this. There is no need for a=20 change. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 11:50, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. D=FCrst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Tea= m review > ... >> 13). In Section 3.5: >> >>> While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable >>> and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempt= s >>> to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registr= y >>> itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >>> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provision= s >>> in Section 3.4. >> Suggested replacement for the paragraph: >> >> The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be >> stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are >> permitted with adequate justification. However, addition >> of translations or transliterations are not considered >> sufficient justification for corrections or updates. >> >> Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is >> trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. > > As a technical contributor... > While I recognized that the proposed text is well-meant, I cannot support > it. It introduces a technical change to what the WG had agreed. It > changes advice ("probably frowned upon") into a prohibition ("are not > considered sufficient"). > > Furthermore, I would argue that the use of MAY is in this case correct - > it's used to describe an optional activity, and those taking part in or > relying on this procedure must account for both the possibility that > the action can occur, and the possibility that it might not occur. > > Consequently, I do not agree with making the proposed change. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --=20 #-# Martin J. D=FCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From addison@amazon.com Tue Jun 9 09:51:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E8B3A67E1 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ID4FG8GP+XBl for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CD03A68FD for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,333,1241395200"; d="scan'208,217";a="230729159" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 09 Jun 2009 16:51:38 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n59Gpbb7012007 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:51:37 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:51:36 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Peter Constable Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:51:35 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) Thread-Index: AcnpHy2+I0ydv6QRRVGAMR59URXjcwAAWq1Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECDA4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECDA4EXSEA5Dantama_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey, Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org 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cmVmPSJtYWlsdG86THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZyI+THRydUBpZXRmLm9yZzwvYT48YnI+DQo8YSBocmVm PSJodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUiIHRhcmdldD0iX2Js YW5rIj5odHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnU8L2E+PG86cD48 L286cD48L3A+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjxwIGNsYXNzPU1zb05v cm1hbD48bzpwPiZuYnNwOzwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2JvZHk+ DQoNCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECDA4EXSEA5Dantama_-- From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Tue Jun 9 09:54:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 528183A67E1 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:54:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.039 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.039 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DLA-5w0guwRx for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 890163A67D7 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:54:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:32963 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ME4aX-0001U9-3s for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:54:19 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:54:14 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acno0vDFDQa0LvspTGKTQqTyxEeQfwAS4AAwAAEel6Y= In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1ME4aX-0001U9-3s. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1ME4aX-0001U9-3s 7ba2458d781ad93d3e8e9c1368806e62 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:54:26 -0000 I agree. /kent k Den 2009-06-09 18.35, skrev "Peter Constable" : > I also don't think a change is necessary. > > I agree with Randy: this use of MAY is indicating an optional activity that > must be anticipated by implementations. I think the wording could be better; > e.g. something along this line: > > "The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections > or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community, > but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in > Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since > modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be > stable." > > > A change to the text I've given here would be editorial, not technical, in > nature. I don't consider it necessary or highly important, but would be open > to that change should the editors be so inclined. > > > > Peter From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 9 12:21:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B221328C1B5 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WonQJXgopi8e for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09EEB3A6A7B for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=nQqvAfuTKGjVg5X5X1aWAvlLYjZFENuc0LDRtfe2uqCvrmNFVbafYg5ed5Lx8/rl; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.221] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ME6ss-0008Fa-LJ for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:21:22 -0400 Message-ID: <004001c9e937$7f7f6be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001501c9e8a4$bd226bc0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00d001c9e8b2$54f90b40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86EC910@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E0B02.1090201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:21:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69689df1bdda15aa8c369a25cc7ae01a319e350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.221 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:21:17 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Phillips, Addison" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 12:10 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) > > co-chair and shepherd hat on: > > I have found six people who are against changing anything here. > Three of them also were okay with removing the sentence. > > I think we have consensus for not changing anything. Randy, can you > close this issue? ... Done. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 9 12:24:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B5F3A6DC5 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:24:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FPZUJ1GGza26 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8BA13A6DAD for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:24:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=CbQpOIDJ2pl844E9Uo42pQ/oAuOFhv+J4bm7ppZkL2NaJ0JKZKujmec3iWVwk1BR; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.221] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ME6w8-00020J-4s for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:24:44 -0400 Message-ID: <004d01c9e937$f83d2680$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001001c9e8a4$4992ae40$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <00c901c9e8b1$6d6a2ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A2E1FAF.7020209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:24:54 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696897206136c5fc06caf9e563706a988893350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.221 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:24:38 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:39 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #57: Code / Subtag distinction (Apps #10) > > co-chair and shepherd hat on: > > On 2009/06/09 15:51, Peter Constable wrote: > > Alexey already replied to Kent that he was OK with no change for this issue: > > Thanks for reminding me, I somehow missed that. I also noted consensus > moving that way, so I'd like to ask Randy to close this issue with no > change. Done. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 9 12:27:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27B028C1CA for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:27:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NUlIRQrWpTbV for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.66]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07BBF28C1C7 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:27:07 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=PCOeCpy4ADceX0Gvy8z28T5Hpchr4sRSq1Klfi07p+O/lp5s5BQIRiJrquRdmAOp; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.221] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-spurfowl.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ME6yW-0006Ee-V8 for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:27:13 -0400 Message-ID: <005201c9e938$5115e6c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <000b01c9e8a3$c39b06c0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <008301c9e8ae$7796e0e0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A2E2040.6040403@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:27:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696827f8548c2376e671e3c124bcc59746ee350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.221 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:27:07 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: "Randy Presuhn" ; "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 1:41 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #56: Section 2.1 syntax is not restrictive enough (Apps #9) > > co-chair and shepherd hat on: > > I have counted 6 people against some changes on this issue, and nobody > really for, so I think we have consensus. Randy, can you please close > this issue appropriately? ... Done. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 9 12:30:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D90FA3A6E1C for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:30:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ToNYGTQkZlwi for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF3C3A6E07 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:30:22 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ed+a+/k3pDfcFddyVNUlbPBLUw+kW8ex+u7n/sRzvWtxSrLBdaN6n1ByyG6QNpF8; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.221] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ME71g-0001M6-6a for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:30:28 -0400 Message-ID: <005f01c9e938$c5709560$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <21E79A49AD7A4D9189A011661BE4E423@DGBP7M81> <4A2DFE55.1080201@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:30:38 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968880d3bde0e90f91fffa683b282cff658350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.221 Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:30:23 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" ; "Doug Ewell" > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:16 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] #55: Section 1 role/history (Apps #8) > > co-chair and shepherd hats on: > > I have seen 5 people in favor of adopting the new text, and nobody > against. I think that's a very clear expression of preferences. > > I herewith would like to ask the editors to adopt the new text, and > Randy to close this issue in the tracker. Issue closed in tracker. Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 9 13:12:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF87B3A6847 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GFU3EQEPCToE for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 427E73A6841 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Ixz9NOEcOmUaTy56MNguQzZLEQpLoNOn9Y4dLDRGN5XGFeTpGNZs98bAahPixvSE; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [64.105.35.221] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1ME7g3-0006Tt-3i for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:12:11 -0400 Message-ID: <00de01c9e93e$99599980$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <1DEF760F8B9D4E16AEA5B9C79DE0F2F9@DGBP7M81> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:12:21 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968d76311c86975a5029b4132b480864f0c350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.35.221 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Code/code element/codet X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:12:06 -0000 Hi - Hats off... > From: "Doug Ewell" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:08 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Code/code element/codet > > Lang Gérard wrote: > > > 3-What would be the drama to forge "codet" (that is the french word > > for "code element") as a new english word to replace "code element" ? > > I think making up our own terminology at this point would be about the > worst thing we could do. Agreed. Particularly since "codet" *will* be pronounced in English the same as "codette", which, at least in my dialect, would in turn be reduced to "cadet". Indeed, that's what my spelling checker already suggests doing. Let's not go there. Randy From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 18:11:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D9B3A694D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:11:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.257 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.257 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.047, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CANEt9e+FMLE for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1725E3A6927 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5A1BKju000698 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:11:20 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 2cb1_9b29d8a4_555b_11de_b733_001d096c566a; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:11:20 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:44550) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:09:32 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F0827.1000809@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:11:03 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:11:28 -0000 [hats on] I have counted 6 people in favor of the new text, and nobody against. Editors, please replace the old text (see Kent's earlier mail in this thread) with the text below. Randy, please close this issue. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 22:04, Doug Ewell wrote: > I think Kent's proposed text, together with Martin's slight edit, is > excellent. It reflects current IANA practice, which works well and is > really better than what 4646 says, and it provides a justification for > the File-Date records in the replacement records even though IANA > doesn't use them verbatim. Let's go with it. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://www.ewellic.org > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ > > >> ======PROPOSED TEXT================= >> >> Whenever an entry is created or modified in the registry, the >> 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry is updated to reflect >> the most recent modification date. The date format SHALL be the >> "full-date" format of [RFC3339] (Klyne, G., ed. and C. Newman, "Date >> and Time on the Internet: Timestamps", July 2002). The date SHALL be >> the date on which that version of the registry was first published by >> IANA. There SHALL be at most one version of the registry published in >> a day. >> >> A File-Date record is also included in each request to IANA to insert >> or modify records indicating the acceptance date of the records in the >> request. >> >> ======END PROPOSED TEXT============= > > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 18:30:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33793A6B8D for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:30:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.255 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.255 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eiPC1tP1+Am4 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E1203A6945 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5A1UAag014801 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:30:10 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3b0d_3d184f9a_555e_11de_9390_001d096c5782; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:30:10 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:58836) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:28:23 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F0C92.7070002@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:29:54 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECDA4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECDA4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group , Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:30:10 -0000 [hats on] I have counted five people (this includes Randy, who commented on the general agreement with the need of doing something here in private) in favor of adding the two text pieces below, and nobody against. I would like to ask the editors to integrate these texts into the newest version of their draft, and Randy to close this issue. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/10 1:51, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (as contributor) > > +1. > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 9:27 AM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; Phillips, Addison; Alexey Melnikov; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential (was: Re: AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) > > I agree with Peter. > > Mark > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 09:20, Peter Constable> wrote: > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Martin J. Dürst" > >>> Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see >>> Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be >>> available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically >>> depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service >>> attacks. >>> -- >>> >>> This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an >>> oversight. I actually thought it said both. >> Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently >> last paragraph in section 6: >> >> Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag Extensions >> Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT >> mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent >> denial-of-service attacks. > That text looks OK to me. > > > >> I agree that there is no evidence that a language tag implementation >> currently does frequent downloads. But there is evidence for other cases >> of frequent downloads, where the frequency of changes is way smaller or >> non-existent. >> >> I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as follows: >> >> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent >> or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. >> Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, >> being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular >> registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents changes >> only occasionally. Changes are announced to >> ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org. Changes, or the absence thereof, >> can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record at the >> start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for >> downloading, without having to download the full registry. > That also looks OK to me. > > >>>> It might also be worth discussing how the registry format >>>> facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. >>> It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registry, >>> the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules >>> generally prevent breaking changes. > >> I think what Alex means is that the diff would significantly reduce the >> amount of data that needs to be downloaded to update the registry to a >> new version. > But if we're directing implementations not to do real-time automated downloads, then it seems that the amount of data shouldn't be that much of an issue. > > >> Overall, I agree that we have discussed this issue before, but I also >> understand that Alex is concerned, probably not only by himself, but >> also about the fact that his fellow IESG members might easily bring up >> this issue as a "discuss". So I think it's better to have it clearly >> documented in the security section. > That seems reasonable, and I think the text you suggested covers the key issues. > > > > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 9 18:36:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEED13A6830 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:36:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.043, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1t7uWofqvbyf for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD8C73A6452 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5A1aLn1019723 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:36:21 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 5313_1a510c76_555f_11de_9da4_001d096c566a; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:36:21 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:42059) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:34:34 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F0E05.6090606@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:36:05 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001f01c9e8a6$166c9600$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:36:18 -0000 [hats on] I have seen four people who don't think we need a change on this, and nobody saying anything in favor of changing. I'm interpreting this as consensus to not make any changes. Randy, please close this issue accordingly. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/09 22:52, Peter Constable wrote: > IETF LC is not needed. We already have an adequate proposal, review and appeal process. > > I recommend no change. > > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:01 PM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) > > Hi - > > Please note that this is the second half of apps review comment #12. > Please do not confuse it with the first half of that same comment. > >> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >> To: "LTRU Working Group" >> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn" >> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review > ... >> 12). In Section 2.2.1: >> >>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA >>> registry were defined via the registration process in Section 3.5 >>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example >>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary >>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochian- >>> Latn" valid. >>> >>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>> registration with ISO 639, >> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to >> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be >> known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the >> Language Subtag Expert. >> >>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >>> before they are registered with IANA. >> This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, >> such as IETF LC. > ... > > This is issue #60 in the tracker. > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/60 > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From doug@ewellic.org Tue Jun 9 18:38:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAAA428C0D0 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:38:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.222 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.222 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.636, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bQvcm6lmxsYG for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EF63D3A6A39 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 6159 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2009 01:38:32 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2009 01:38:31 -0000 Message-ID: <6565FDB49CE44B3EACDF87620A9183D7@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:38:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Code/code element/codet X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:38:26 -0000 Lang Gérard wrote: > 1-Please note that only "ISO 3166/MA" exists, not "ISO 3166/RA". Thank you for correcting my typo. I think the co-chairs have indicated their desire to keep the discussion focused on the drafts, so as long as these typos or brain bubbles are only appearing in e-mail messages and not in one of the drafts, we might decide just to correct them mentally and move on, just as we do when someone writes "ISO 693" or "RFC 3166" and we all know what they mean. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 9 18:46:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D6528C0F1 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id np+Jl6CpsB3a for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A312C3A6C1B for ; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:46:37 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=apcBjuOxH1SJy4HlGl+MJ3hfjRV+2VKgEdF1tt9iahD8c2MlNBIxVmQCXyGIA+vt; h=Message-ID:Date:From:Reply-To:To:Subject:Mime-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Mailer:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [209.86.224.24] (helo=mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MECtn-0003e1-Uu for ltru@ietf.org; Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:46:43 -0400 Received: from 99.128.225.14 by webmail.earthlink.net with HTTP; Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:46:43 -0400 Message-ID: <2420922.1244598403953.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:46:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Randy Presuhn To: ltru@ietf.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: EarthLink Zoo Mail 1.0 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69682e60748088d5a4757f25a2546b067463350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 209.86.224.24 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary subtag case (Apps #12-b) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: Randy Presuhn List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:46:38 -0000 Hi - Done. Randy -----Original Message----- >From: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" >Sent: Jun 9, 2009 6:36 PM >To: Peter Constable >Cc: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5)=09prim= ary subtag case (Apps #12-b) > >[hats on] > >I have seen four people who don't think we need a change on this, and=20 >nobody saying anything in favor of changing. > >I'm interpreting this as consensus to not make any changes. >Randy, please close this issue accordingly. > >Regards, Martin. > > >On 2009/06/09 22:52, Peter Constable wrote: >> IETF LC is not needed. We already have an adequate proposal, review and = appeal process. >> >> I recommend no change. >> >> >> Peter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Randy Presuhn >> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 7:01 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: [Ltru] Issue #60: Require IETF Last Call for 2.2.1 (5) primary = subtag case (Apps #12-b) >> >> Hi - >> >> Please note that this is the second half of apps review comment #12. >> Please do not confuse it with the first half of that same comment. >> >>> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >>> To: "LTRU Working Group" >>> Cc: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"; "Randy Presuhn" >>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Te= am review >> ... >>> 12). In Section 2.2.1: >>> >>>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IAN= A >>>> registry were defined via the registration process in Section = 3.5 >>>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An exampl= e >>>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >>>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a prima= ry >>>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >>>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and "enochi= an- >>>> Latn" valid. >>>> >>>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples = of >>>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>>> registration with ISO 639, >>> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to >>> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be >>> known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the >>> Language Subtag Expert. >>> >>>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewe= r >>>> before they are registered with IANA. >>> This might be a big deal, so this might actually require wider review, >>> such as IETF LC. >> ... >> >> This is issue #60 in the tracker. >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/60 >> >> Randy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > >--=20 >#-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University >#-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From bortzmeyer@nic.fr Wed Jun 10 02:27:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC9CC3A6DD8 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:27:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VfcJjvs5-9Z6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74C0A3A693E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 72EB11C0133; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:23:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3771C0110; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:23:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B96CA1D815; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:23:00 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:23:00 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20090610092300.GA23238@nic.fr> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.1 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62, AD issue #14 (Very remote risk of DoS) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:27:56 -0000 On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 03:53:39PM -0700, Phillips, Addison wrote a message of 116 lines which said: > However, there is also a specific mechanism in Section 5.1 for knowing when a change is made: > > -- > Developers who are dependent upon the language subtag registry > sometimes would like to be informed of changes in the registry so > that they can update their implementations. When any change is made > to the language subtag registry, IANA will send an announcement > message to "ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org" (a > self-subscribing list that only IANA can post to). There is also a RFC 4287 feed at . It could be improved if necessary. > > It might be nice to have the File-Date value available as a > > separate short piece of data (a separate web page on IANA's > > website, a thing in DNS, etc. But even with existing registry > > format it might be possible to minimize load on IANA's website by > > describing how HTTP/1.1 features can be used to only download > > necessary information, such as downloading the beginning of the > > registry which contains the File-Date field. The proper HTTP 1.1 way is to use a conditional GET. RFC 2616, section 14.25. The IANA HTTP server supports it fine. Here is how it is used by the program behind : if [ -e ${LTR_LOCAL} ]; then ltr_date=`head -n 1 ${LTR_LOCAL} | cut -d" " -f2` # Allow time to elapse. The date of the file at IANA is often the day after # the date written in the LSR. Heuristically, we add one day and a few hours. current_date=`date +"%Y%m%d %H:%M:%S" --date="${ltr_date} +1 day +4 hour"` else # Trick to force a downloading current_date="19700101" fi curl --silent --output ${LTR_LOCAL}.TMP \ --compressed \ --referer ${MYURL} \ --proxy "" \ --time-cond "${current_date}" \ --header "From: ${MAINTAINER}" \ ${LTR_URL} ... From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 02:51:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A916028C0D0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sq2GSpjAcHi9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721C83A6E29 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5A9pdRN024390 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:51:39 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 4586_4b54a02c_55a4_11de_8a6a_001d096c566a; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:51:39 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:59155) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:49:51 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F8219.5060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:51:21 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephane Bortzmeyer References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090610092300.GA23238@nic.fr> In-Reply-To: <20090610092300.GA23238@nic.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62, AD issue #14 (Very remote risk of DoS) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:51:45 -0000 [hats on] Hello Stephane, I'm assuming that you are sending the contribution below for documentation purposes. Just in case you think we need to reopen issue 62, you would have to say that explicitly. Everybody, at this stage, if you make information-only comments, please say so explicitly. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/10 18:23, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 03:53:39PM -0700, > Phillips, Addison wrote > a message of 116 lines which said: > >> However, there is also a specific mechanism in Section 5.1 for knowing when a change is made: >> >> -- >> Developers who are dependent upon the language subtag registry >> sometimes would like to be informed of changes in the registry so >> that they can update their implementations. When any change is made >> to the language subtag registry, IANA will send an announcement >> message to "ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org" (a >> self-subscribing list that only IANA can post to). > > There is also a RFC 4287 feed at > . It could be improved if > necessary. > >>> It might be nice to have the File-Date value available as a >>> separate short piece of data (a separate web page on IANA's >>> website, a thing in DNS, etc. But even with existing registry >>> format it might be possible to minimize load on IANA's website by >>> describing how HTTP/1.1 features can be used to only download >>> necessary information, such as downloading the beginning of the >>> registry which contains the File-Date field. > > The proper HTTP 1.1 way is to use a conditional GET. RFC 2616, section > 14.25. The IANA HTTP server supports it fine. Here is how it is used > by the program behind: > > if [ -e ${LTR_LOCAL} ]; then > ltr_date=`head -n 1 ${LTR_LOCAL} | cut -d" " -f2` > # Allow time to elapse. The date of the file at IANA is often the day after > # the date written in the LSR. Heuristically, we add one day and a few hours. > current_date=`date +"%Y%m%d %H:%M:%S" --date="${ltr_date} +1 day +4 hour"` > else > # Trick to force a downloading > current_date="19700101" > fi > curl --silent --output ${LTR_LOCAL}.TMP \ > --compressed \ > --referer ${MYURL} \ > --proxy "" \ > --time-cond "${current_date}" \ > --header "From: ${MAINTAINER}" \ > ${LTR_URL} ... > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 03:02:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B5428C0ED for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:02:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.261, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pVbif1oQUCoe for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D81A43A6D77 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5AA2J3G032673 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:02:19 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 5792_c8f5ed50_55a5_11de_937c_001d096c566a; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:02:19 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:60989) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:00:31 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:01:54 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kent Karlsson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:02:15 -0000 [hats on] I currently have Kent, Randy, Peter, and myself down as against changes on this issue. There are also some eventuality proposals for new text, but these are currently not relevant. Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't already done so. If you have expressed your opinion, but I haven't considered it, please also say so. Unless somebody expresses a preference (and reason) for making a change, I'll declare consensus on this issue tomorrow my morning. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/10 1:54, Kent Karlsson wrote: > I agree. > > /kent k > > Den 2009-06-09 18.35, skrev "Peter Constable": > >> I also don't think a change is necessary. >> >> I agree with Randy: this use of MAY is indicating an optional activity that >> must be anticipated by implementations. I think the wording could be better; >> e.g. something along this line: >> >> "The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections >> or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community, >> but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the >> registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in >> Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since >> modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be >> stable." >> >> >> A change to the text I've given here would be editorial, not technical, in >> nature. I don't consider it necessary or highly important, but would be open >> to that change should the editors be so inclined. >> >> >> >> Peter > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 03:02:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 627C128C125 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tzzzqfbgxvdJ for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445533A6DD8 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5AA2Jlc022810 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:02:19 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0582_c8fbee26_55a5_11de_9b5b_001d096c5782; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:02:19 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:60988) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:00:31 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F8490.5090903@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:01:52 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906090835m55b6da87xc34f8aee346ead3d@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906090835m55b6da87xc34f8aee346ead3d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:02:15 -0000 [hats on] I currently have Kent, Peter, Mark, and myself down as against changes on this issue. Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't already done so. If you have expressed your opinion, but I haven't considered it, please also say so. Unless somebody expresses a preference (and reason) for making a change, I'll declare consensus on this issue tomorrow my morning. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/10 0:35, Mark Davis wrote: > +1 > Mark > > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 06:54, Peter Constablewrote: > >> I've commented on this already: I don't see a need for any change. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Randy Presuhn >> Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 6:57 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language >> in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) >> >> Hi - >> >> Note well that there are two very distinct issues in Apps #12. >> This thread is the first of the two. PLEASE do not confuse >> them in your followups! >> >>> From: "Alexey Melnikov" >>> To: "LTRU Working Group" >>> Cc: "Martin J. Dürst"; "Randy Presuhn"< >> randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 1:14 PM >>> Subject: Re: Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team >> review >> .... >>> 12). In Section 2.2.1: >>> >>>> 5. Any language subtags of 5 to 8 characters in length in the IANA >>>> registry were defined via the registration process in Section >> 3.5 >>>> and MAY be used to form the primary language subtag. An example >>>> of what such a registration might include: one of the >>>> grandfathered IANA registrations is "i-enochian". The subtag >>>> 'enochian' could be registered in the IANA registry as a primary >>>> language subtag (assuming that ISO 639 does not register this >>>> language first), making tags such as "enochian-AQ" and >> "enochian- >>>> Latn" valid. >>>> >>>> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >>>> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are >>>> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for >>>> registration with ISO 639, >>> I suggest that the RECOMMENDED is changed to a MUST, i.e. an attempt to >>> register it with ISO 639 must be made. Even if the outcome might be >>> known, arguments given by ISO 639 might provide useful input to the >>> Language Subtag Expert. >>> >>>> and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- >>>> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer >>>> before they are registered with IANA. >> ... >> >> This is filed as issue #59 in the tracker. >> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/59 >> >> Randy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 03:19:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85223A6B99 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:19:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.258 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.258 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.048, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zRl8D2vdfMQe for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B57343A68FE for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5AAJALA004762 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:19:10 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 7a0f_23a2db3a_55a8_11de_aac6_001d096c566a; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:19:10 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:34636) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:17:23 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:18:53 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:19:11 -0000 [hats on] [Randy: I have assigned this the next number (63). Can you please put this into the tracker accordingly. Thanks.] Alex has promised not to send us any issues anymore, but in discussion with him, I have found out that there is one more that I think he would really like to be handled, and so I'm trying to help him by sending this to the WG myself. The commenter in the Application Area review commented that we should use the U+00xx notation for identifying characters outside of ABNF. The reasons given are that the notation from the ABNF isn't intended for use outside the ABNF, and that it doesn't follow RFC 5137/BCP 137. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 03:35:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B645C3A6E49 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.412 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.412 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.113, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zW4dIBRG0bo7 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97FD23A6E32 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:35:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:35:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:35:17 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:35:47 -0000 Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > [hats on] > > [Randy: I have assigned this the next number (63). Can you please put=20 > this into the tracker accordingly. Thanks.] > > Alex has promised not to send us any issues anymore, but in discussion=20 > with him, I have found out that there is one more that I think he=20 > would really like to be handled, and so I'm trying to help him by=20 > sending this to the WG myself. > > The commenter in the Application Area review commented that we should=20 > use the U+00xx notation for identifying characters outside of ABNF.=20 > The reasons given are that the notation from the ABNF isn't intended=20 > for use outside the ABNF, and that it doesn't follow RFC 5137/BCP 137. I think the latter argument (BCP 137) is more important, besides this=20 would make 4646bis more consistent with other RFCs recently published. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 03:37:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B263A69FF for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:37:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.256 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.256 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZV7Vc26brgyb for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B42628C121 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5AAbgkU019648 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:37:42 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 4d1d_ba4be8d6_55aa_11de_8702_001d096c5782; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:37:42 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:49949) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:35:55 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F8CE5.10007@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:37:25 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:37:50 -0000 [hats on: sorry I forgot to complete the subject] [hats off, technical commenter only] I think this is easy to fix, and can only affect our chances at moving through the next steps positively. I have looked at how to implement this issue, and have come up with the following proposal for changes: In section 2.1, change last line of first paragraph from other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", ABNF [RFC5234] %x2D). to other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D). In section 3.1.1, change the fourth line of the second paragraph from character (%x3A) plus any surrounding whitespace. Each field is to character (U+003A) plus any surrounding whitespace. Each field is Also, change the second line of the third paragraph from lines containing only the sequence "%%" (%x25.25). to lines containing only the sequence "%%" (U+0025 U+0025). Also, change the first line of the second-to-last paragraph from The sequence '..' (%x2E.2E) in a field-body denotes a range of to The sequence '..' (U+002E U+002E) in a field-body denotes a range of Move [Unicode] from informative references to normative references. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/10 19:18, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > [hats on] > > [Randy: I have assigned this the next number (63). Can you please put > this into the tracker accordingly. Thanks.] > > Alex has promised not to send us any issues anymore, but in discussion > with him, I have found out that there is one more that I think he would > really like to be handled, and so I'm trying to help him by sending this > to the WG myself. > > The commenter in the Application Area review commented that we should > use the U+00xx notation for identifying characters outside of ABNF. The > reasons given are that the notation from the ABNF isn't intended for use > outside the ABNF, and that it doesn't follow RFC 5137/BCP 137. > > Regards, Martin. > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 03:45:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BAF23A6BB8 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:45:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.744, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k4X3OeWYl+l3 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F18233A6B0F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5AAjf21025827 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:41 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 5ce1_d7ce3188_55ab_11de_b963_001d096c5782; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:41 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:38205) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:43:54 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F8EC4.6060700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:24 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906031157h2ff19636va725ae95bf2af166@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:45:42 -0000 [technical contributor] I have looked at this text, too, and I think it looks fine. [co-chair/shepherd] I count Mark, Addison, Peter, and me agreeing on the actual text, and others agreeing with the fact that the issue warrants a fix. In addition, as pointed out, quite some time has passed since the version given here has been proposed, and no improvements or disagreement has been since. I therefore declare that we have consensus on this change. Editors, please make sure you have this text as below. Randy, please close this issue with the text below as the resolution. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/04 4:11, Peter Constable wrote: > It looks OK to me. > > From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 11:58 AM > To: Peter Constable > Cc: Phillips, Addison; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? > > The last text I see from Addison was: > > Script subtags consist of four letters and were defined according > to the assignments found in ("Information and documentation -- Codes for the representation of names of scripts"), or subsequently assigned by > the ISO 15924 registration authority or governing standardization > bodies. Only codes assigned by ISO 15924 will be considered for registration. > > I agreed to it, and nobody on that thread objected to it. So I think Randy/Martin should call for consensus on this. > > Mark > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:38, Peter Constable> wrote: > Addison or others: is there a response to Randy's question? Can we get some traction to close on this? > > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 11:28 PM > To: ltru@ietf.org > Subject: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? > > Hi - > >> From: "Martin J. Dürst"> >> To: "CE Whitehead"> >> Cc:> >> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 3:42 AM >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #45: updated editor's copy available > ... >> With this, I think I have declared consensus on all the open issues, and >> these issues all can be closed. Two of them, if I count correctly, >> require editorial action. I would like to ask the editors to prepare an >> updated copy, ready for submission at my instruction. > ... > > There was a flurry of commentary after you announced consensus on #53. > The editors seem to have gone with a different text, so I have left this > one open until I get some clarification. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 03:47:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280C23A6E54 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.228 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.228 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.018, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H1EqWISSoNat for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D5323A6B0F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 03:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5AAlvAF004745 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:47:57 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 60c5_28fe7d92_55ac_11de_ba89_001d096c5782; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:47:57 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:38206) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:46:10 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:47:40 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:47:53 -0000 [technical contributor] On 2009/06/10 19:35, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Martin J. Dürst wrote: > >> [hats on] >> The commenter in the Application Area review commented that we should >> use the U+00xx notation for identifying characters outside of ABNF. >> The reasons given are that the notation from the ABNF isn't intended >> for use outside the ABNF, and that it doesn't follow RFC 5137/BCP 137. > > I think the latter argument (BCP 137) is more important, besides this > would make 4646bis more consistent with other RFCs recently published. And more consistent with practice at other standards organizations, such as (of course) the Unicode Consortium and W3C. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Wed Jun 10 04:09:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA8283A6E4E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:09:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.183 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.183 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qNosZMNt6ilO for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F3A3A68B6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33258 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MELgt-0006Ck-7Y; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:10:01 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:09:50 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Martin J. =?ISO-8859-1?B?RPxyc3Q=?=" , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: Acnpu/jaQfBHOSeZhUSUP+TaD01inw== In-Reply-To: <4A2F8CE5.10007@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MELgt-0006Ck-7Y. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MELgt-0006Ck-7Y d20f8cf502333e0899a1e8db6e846ec3 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:09:59 -0000 Den 2009-06-10 12.37, skrev "Martin J. D=FCrst" : > lines containing only the sequence "%%" (U+0025 U+0025). ... > The sequence '..' (U+002E U+002E) in a field-body denotes a range of Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting character sequences. So: lines containing only the sequence "%%" (). ... The sequence '..' () in a field-body denotes a range of > other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D). Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This is just as valid for other editions of TUS. And does the reference have to be placed so awkwardly? I don't think issue 63 needs lead to any changes in the text, but of course I'm not opposed to the suggested changes (with fixes as above). /kent k From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 04:26:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C923A3A6972 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cP89SpMlBnxC for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADAD23A6833 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:26:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5ABQX1q008600 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:33 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 15b1_8d634b0a_55b1_11de_9e4e_001d096c566a; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:33 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:48795) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:24:46 +0900 Message-ID: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:26:16 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kent Karlsson References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:26:39 -0000 [technical contributor] On 2009/06/10 20:09, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Den 2009-06-10 12.37, skrev "Martin J. Dürst": > >> lines containing only the sequence "%%" (U+0025 U+0025). > ... >> The sequence '..' (U+002E U+002E) in a field-body denotes a range of > > Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting > character sequences. So: > > lines containing only the sequence "%%" (). > ... > The sequence '..' () in a field-body denotes a range of > >> other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D). I'm fine with adding the comma. I don't think the IETF uses '<' and '>', so I'd prefer to leave them out. > Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This > is just as valid for other editions of TUS. Fine with me to leave that out. > And does the reference have to > be placed so awkwardly? No. I just left it where it was before. We didn't get a request to move the place of the reference. But I would be fine with ("-", U+002D [Unicode]) or so, if that looks better to you. > I don't think issue 63 needs lead to any changes in the text, but of course > I'm not opposed to the suggested changes (with fixes as above). [chair/shepherd hat on]: If I won't be able to detect a clear preference in the WG for or against this change, I plan to put consensus on the side of change for this specific issue given the circumstances. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From bortzmeyer@nic.fr Wed Jun 10 05:17:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F97A3A6833 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:17:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.099 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZIv+bpV173yU for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (mx2.nic.fr [192.134.4.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3AF3A6804 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx2.nic.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with SMTP id 035BB1C0151; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:12:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from relay1.nic.fr (relay1.nic.fr [192.134.4.162]) by mx2.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id F307D1C0147; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:12:41 +0200 (CEST) Received: from bortzmeyer.nic.fr (batilda.nic.fr [192.134.4.69]) by relay1.nic.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6CE1A1D815; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:12:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:12:41 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: Martin =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=2E_D=FCrst?= Message-ID: <20090610121241.GA14140@nic.fr> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090610092300.GA23238@nic.fr> <4A2F8219.5060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4A2F8219.5060503@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Operating-System: Debian GNU/Linux 5.0.1 X-Kernel: Linux 2.6.26-1-686 i686 Organization: NIC France X-URL: http://www.nic.fr/ User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62, AD issue #14 (Very remote risk of DoS) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:17:37 -0000 On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:51:21PM +0900, Martin J. Dürst wrote a message of 71 lines which said: > I'm assuming that you are sending the contribution below for > documentation purposes. Correct. > Just in case you think we need to reopen issue 62, you would have to > say that explicitly. No, no, for me, this so-called DoS risk is a non-issue, so I'm happy if #62 stays closed. From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 05:21:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43E8128C0E5 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:21:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.892 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.892 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.106, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FzVytH7-dESd for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7363628C0EC for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10379 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2009 12:21:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2009 12:21:32 -0000 Message-ID: <3696307E3A434AB6AA9836A073179002@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:21:30 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:21:32 -0000 Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Please express your preference For the record, I have no opinion on this matter, since my understanding of the capitalized RFC 2119 keyword "MAY" does not agree with other WG members. I thought it referred only to that which processes were permitted, but not required, to do, but it turns out that it is also acceptable for stating simple possibility as well. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 05:24:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EF73A6804 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:24:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rUaotpPUAA+u for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.36]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 61AA03A67FB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20547 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2009 12:25:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth20.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.36) with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2009 12:25:00 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:24:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:24:54 -0000 Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST, because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From mgunn@egt.ie Wed Jun 10 05:35:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92D4C3A6833 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:35:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pn6FJFmJfTzW for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D84FF3A6804 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10916 messnum 13114049 invoked from network[86.42.148.78/86-42-148-78-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 10 Jun 2009 12:35:42 -0000 Received: from 86-42-148-78-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.148.78) by mail05.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 10916) with SMTP; 10 Jun 2009 12:35:42 -0000 Message-ID: <4A2FA76F.5040106@egt.ie> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:30:39 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell , 'LTRU Working Group' , Martin Duerst References: <3696307E3A434AB6AA9836A073179002@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <3696307E3A434AB6AA9836A073179002@DGBP7M81> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030502030502060708020502" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:35:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030502030502060708020502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That MAY use is a fuzziness specific to English, Doug - all languages have their own features, so readers of this doc will be well aware of the uses of MAY, etc. Might I suggest, at this stage, that, since the rate of LTRU msgs coming in during the time allocated for this work made it impossible for anyone otherwise gainfully employed to read and comment on all issues, big and small. You may rest assured that experts reading this group's final document will make allowance for the fact that most who contributed to its compilation have never studied English, or any other language, to any depth, so their principal responsibilites were (a) to consult those who have and (b) not to add any more to the number of errors already contained in the documents referenced internally in said document. Please let it go now, as the best that could be done with the brief and the team available, without causing further delay up the line, where it is awaited. Sincerely, mg -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. Ãtha Cliath, Éire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * Scríobh Doug Ewell: > Martin J. Dürst wrote: > >> Please express your preference > > For the record, I have no opinion on this matter, since my > understanding of the capitalized RFC 2119 keyword "MAY" does not agree > with other WG members. I thought it referred only to that which > processes were permitted, but not required, to do, but it turns out > that it is also acceptable for stating simple possibility as well. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://www.ewellic.org > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --------------030502030502060708020502 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit That MAY use is a fuzziness specific to English, Doug - all languages have their own features, so readers of this doc will be well aware of the uses of MAY, etc. Might I suggest, at this stage, that, since the rate of LTRU msgs coming in during the time allocated for this work made it impossible for anyone otherwise gainfully employed to read and comment on all issues, big and small. You may rest assured that experts reading this group's final document will make allowance for the fact that most who contributed to its compilation have never studied English, or any other language, to any depth, so their principal responsibilites were (a) to consult those who have and (b) not to add any more to the number of errors already contained in the documents referenced internally in said document. Please let it go now, as the best that could be done with the brief and the team available, without causing further delay up the line, where it is awaited.

Sincerely,
mg


--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Ãtha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

Scríobh Doug Ewell:

Martin J. Dürst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> wrote:

Please express your preference

For the record, I have no opinion on this matter, since my understanding of the capitalized RFC 2119 keyword "MAY" does not agree with other WG members.  I thought it referred only to that which processes were permitted, but not required, to do, but it turns out that it is also acceptable for stating simple possibility as well.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages  ˆ

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--------------030502030502060708020502-- From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 05:45:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 422333A6ADA for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:45:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.918 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.918 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_14=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5vDHO-o95yvY for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.31]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 631193A6E74 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 828 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2009 12:45:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth18.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.31) with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2009 12:45:05 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:45:01 -0000 I have no objection to the general concept of using Unicode notation for character references. Martin J. Dürst replied to Kent: >> Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This >> is just as valid for other editions of TUS. > > Fine with me to leave that out. I agree rather strongly with leaving out the page numbers, unless we plan to add page numbers or chapter-and-verse references to all our other citations. >> And does the reference have to be placed so awkwardly? > > No. I just left it where it was before. We didn't get a request to > move the place of the reference. But I would be fine with ("-", U+002D > [Unicode]) or so, if that looks better to you. I'd prefer to add a blanket explanation on or before the first usage of Unicode notation, maybe even as early as the Introduction (next to the RFC 2119 boilerplate), since it will be needed as early as the first paragraph of Section 2.1. How about something like: "Character references in the form U+xxxx represent characters from the [Unicode] repertoire." Then let the embedded reference to [Unicode] lead the reader toward the formal definition. (Please feel very free to improve upon this wording; I know it's not the best.) Note also that the draft already uses U+ notation in Section 2.1.1, with no special citation. The blanket explanation would also cover that usage. I concur with Kent that Unicode does use < > to enclose a sequence of U+ characters, and I find this syntax easy to read and understand, but I wouldn't insist on it if IETF has some reason not to use it. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Wed Jun 10 05:47:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F03428C182 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:47:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.050, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q6sizuLgLpea for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACCBC3A6ADA for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:34365 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MENDK-0005Bw-72; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:47:36 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:47:27 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnpyZvltqCZNnKn30S0iDwIn0/eJg== In-Reply-To: <3696307E3A434AB6AA9836A073179002@DGBP7M81> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MENDK-0005Bw-72. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MENDK-0005Bw-72 8ce5ade65910507688f0637737c3c5a7 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:47:52 -0000 The process of maintaining the registry is permitted, but not required, to change Description fields. I agree that the current text could be formulated better. Peter suggested redrafted text. /kent k Den 2009-06-10 14.21, skrev "Doug Ewell" : > Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please > express your preference For the record, I have no opinion on this matter, > since my understanding of the capitalized RFC 2119 keyword "MAY" does not > agree with other WG members. I thought it referred only to that which > processes were permitted, but not required, to do, but it turns out that it > is also acceptable for stating simple possibility as well. -- Doug Ewell * > Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN > #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm > l http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > =96 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing > list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 05:55:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F08963A6B8B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:55:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xHMH+IjDQKIm for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.30]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 481B63A65A6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20269 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2009 12:55:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth19.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.30) with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2009 12:55:22 -0000 Message-ID: <38222B41FDC44E7A98C4E320B0B98280@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:55:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:55:22 -0000 Kent Karlsson wrote: > The process of maintaining the registry is permitted, but not > required, to change Description fields. I agree that the > current text could be formulated better. Peter suggested > redrafted text. Fine. I do not object. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Wed Jun 10 06:17:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4693A6CDA for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xg0LXsrKNOC for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABE03A6E76 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009469517.msg for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:36:34 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:36:34 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from Vickynew ([213.208.115.6]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:17:21 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:11:00 +0100 Message-ID: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcnpxodUY6n61jEcTPC8xGgLIeEUDQABHFYA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:36:35 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:18:35 -0000 Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and = it is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: ---=20 In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST = supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode = the entity and that the request has been rejected. --- I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the = ISO 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be deprecated. Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. = Never leave room for doubt unless you need to. That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not = hold up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Doug Ewell Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't = > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,=20 because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester=20 to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor = any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =88 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 06:45:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7F8B3A6841 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.156, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mXPqGz3fXw3l for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A9B73A6BEA for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:10 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:10 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Alexey Melnikov , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:45:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Thread-Index: Acnpt0KhkzwtKLBUS8uAd1TvT5dVAAAGfH7g Message-ID: References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:45:09 -0000 RnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3Jn XSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgQWxleGV5IE1lbG5pa292DQpNYXJ0aW4gSi4gRMO8cnN0IHdyb3RlOg0K DQo+IFRoZSBjb21tZW50ZXIgaW4gdGhlIEFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIEFyZWEgcmV2aWV3IGNvbW1lbnRl ZCB0aGF0IHdlIHNob3VsZCANCj4gdXNlIHRoZSBVKzAweHggbm90YXRpb24gZm9yIGlkZW50aWZ5 aW5nIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMgb3V0c2lkZSBvZiBBQk5GLiANCg0KV2hlcmUgYXJlIHdlIHRhbGtpbmcg YWJvdXQ/IFdoYXQgcGFydGljdWxhciBjaGFuZ2VzIGFyZSBuZWVkZWQ/DQoNCjIuMS4xIGhhcyBy ZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRvIHNwZWNpZmljIGNoYXJhY3RlcnMsIGFuZCBpdCBpcyB1c2luZyB0aGF0IG5v dGF0aW9uIGFscmVhZHkuIElzIGRpZmZlcmVudCBub3RhdGlvbiB1c2VkIGVsc2V3aGVyZT8NCg0K DQoNClBldGVyDQo= From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 06:47:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8CAD3A6BC3 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:47:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.446 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.446 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.147, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vbqmaHacW0N6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B8E83A6E7E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:47:29 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:47:29 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Peter Constable , Alexey Melnikov , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:47:29 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Thread-Index: Acnpt0KhkzwtKLBUS8uAd1TvT5dVAAAGfH7gAAAwcUA= Message-ID: References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:47:24 -0000 U29ycnksIEkganVzdCBzYXcgbGF0ZXIgbWFpbCB0aGF0IGdpdmVzIHRoZSBzcGVjaWZpY3MuDQoN Ci0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcg W21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBQZXRlciBDb25zdGFi bGUNClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSnVuZSAxMCwgMjAwOSA2OjQ1IEFNDQpUbzogQWxleGV5IE1l bG5pa292OyAiTWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdCINCkNjOiBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANClN1Ympl Y3Q6IFJlOiBbTHRydV0gSXNzdWUgNjM6DQoNCkZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBb bWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEFsZXhleSBNZWxuaWtv dg0KTWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdCB3cm90ZToNCg0KPiBUaGUgY29tbWVudGVyIGluIHRoZSBBcHBs aWNhdGlvbiBBcmVhIHJldmlldyBjb21tZW50ZWQgdGhhdCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgDQo+IHVzZSB0aGUg VSswMHh4IG5vdGF0aW9uIGZvciBpZGVudGlmeWluZyBjaGFyYWN0ZXJzIG91dHNpZGUgb2YgQUJO Ri4gDQoNCldoZXJlIGFyZSB3ZSB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0PyBXaGF0IHBhcnRpY3VsYXIgY2hhbmdl cyBhcmUgbmVlZGVkPw0KDQoyLjEuMSBoYXMgcmVmZXJlbmNlcyB0byBzcGVjaWZpYyBjaGFyYWN0 ZXJzLCBhbmQgaXQgaXMgdXNpbmcgdGhhdCBub3RhdGlvbiBhbHJlYWR5LiBJcyBkaWZmZXJlbnQg bm90YXRpb24gdXNlZCBlbHNld2hlcmU/DQoNCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQpMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 06:50:36 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B0B43A6B74 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.589 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.589 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.010, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5FZ+lq7b3kB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 500913A69A9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.62) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:50:37 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.62]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:50:37 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , 'Doug Ewell' , 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:50:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnpxodUY6n61jEcTPC8xGgLIeEUDQABHFYAAAHPH8A= Message-ID: References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> In-Reply-To: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:50:36 -0000 Would that language get interpreted as saying IETF-languages can't even dis= cuss the details of a request until that has been done? What problem is being fixed here? (I don't know that we have an existing pr= oblem.) Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Deb= bie Garside Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:11 AM To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlangua= ge in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and it is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: ---=20 In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode the entity and that the request has been rejected. --- I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the IS= O 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be deprecated. Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. Never leave room for doubt unless you need to. That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not hold up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dou= g Ewell Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't=20 > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,=20 because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester=20 to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor=20 any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ^ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53 =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53 =20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 06:58:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2C03A6BC3 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1A+cfQbMLXT for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-px0-f176.google.com (mail-px0-f176.google.com [209.85.216.176]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0608C3A6A91 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pxi6 with SMTP id 6so803772pxi.29 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=GngW6L1c/pBE2gb/68n+SYn1jPWMZV0ZkVT4gzf+UxM=; b=iH8Ud+ZSBnkMMev8UScc6XneRt2hLCLEdRTbrZqVhvLYgtvcn+EAhlrhN7FBCWXdW3 +0apwM/Flw9eJOgG6kuVx3PNjDIWovoHIix3wwSctrzfvGbYIrMHNCLzKvQsPOb+Bnhi oQ9pIEAy36OQy9uyNz/AdWw7A17xTo+hiZrZM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=iiWdPQEmLp29GFb9dFV0lvDbyneQs8GlN9lyKE1/PTumS1Eiyz9j8FVeuFqARikAm6 AzEXN+vgWu5hdZhvax5LdZXl6c/Aewf36Un6A6SV3IeWyN3I5SXSpAzmQGINOxSVEJlE PWU3pyyP/A2XDjG0BVhVCK4wAqi5hkBC0Cq+Y= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.143.6.19 with SMTP id j19mr511576wfi.338.1244642301745; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:21 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dbb705bc90e1309c Message-ID: <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00504502c7a7449b99046bfede0c Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:58:19 -0000 --00504502c7a7449b99046bfede0c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I could live with no change, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with som= e changes. The advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make it much clearer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process works; and it does accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the current language is good enough, and people are tired of this kind of tuning. My suggested changes are below. > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA= - > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are discouraged: - Before a primary language subtag request could be accepted, the requester MUST supply evidence that a request for a language code was ma= de to the ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days previously, and that the request wa= s not accepted. - The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC. Changes were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove dependency on particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a reasonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with ISO or IETF that just hang). Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside wr= ote: > Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and = it > is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: > > --- > > In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for > registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST supp= ly > evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode t= he > entity and that the request has been rejected. > > --- > > I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to > register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the > ISO > 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be > deprecated. > > Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. Neve= r > leave room for doubt unless you need to. > > That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not hol= d > up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. > > Kind regards > > Debbie > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Doug > Ewell > Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with > MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > > Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't > > already done so. > > I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST, > because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester > to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor > any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. > > -- > Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 > http://www.ewellic.org > http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html > http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =CB=86 > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: > 30/04/2009 > 17:53 > > > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: > 30/04/2009 > 17:53 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --00504502c7a7449b99046bfede0c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I could live with no change, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with= some changes. The advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make i= t much clearer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process wor= ks; and it does accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that = the current language is good enough, and people are tired of this kind of t= uning.

My suggested changes are below.

<old>
> > =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 At the time this document was created, there were no ex= amples of
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this kind of subtag and future registr= ations of this type are
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discouraged: primary languages are str= ongly RECOMMENDED for
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0registration with ISO 639, and proposa= ls rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0JAC will be closely scrutinized by the= Language Subtag Reviewer
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0before they are registered with IANA.<= br>
</old>
<new style=3D"broken into separate sentences= for review">

At the time = this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag. F= uture registrations of this type are discouraged:
  • Before a primary language s= ubtag request could be accepted, the requester MUST supply evidence that a = request for a language code was made to the ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days p= reviously, and that the request was not accepted.
  • The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rejected= by ISO 639/ MA-JAC.
</new>

Changes were in gra= mmar (simplify and make more direct), remove dependency on particular agent= s, and to account for the JAC not responding within a reasonable period (no= problem currently, but we've all seen cases with ISO or IETF that just= hang).


Mark


On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Ga= rside <de= bbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote:
Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and it=
is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text:

---

In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for
registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST supply=
evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode the=
entity and that the request has been rejected.

---

I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. =C2=A0We really do not want t= o
register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the IS= O
639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be
deprecated.

Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. =C2=A0N= ever
leave room for doubt unless you need to.

That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not hold<= br> up this document for a lengthy discussion on this.

Kind regards

Debbie

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Doug
Ewell
Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: repl= ace RECOMMENDED language with
MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> wrote:
> Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven&#= 39;t
> already done so.

I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,
because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester=
to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor any way to enforce such a requirement anyway.

--
Doug Ewell =C2=A0* =C2=A0Thornton, Colorado, USA =C2=A0* =C2=A0RFC 4645 =C2= =A0* =C2=A0UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org=
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages = =C2=A0=CB=86

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9
17:53


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9
17:53




_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--00504502c7a7449b99046bfede0c-- From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 06:58:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951BC3A6BF0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.225 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.225 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.373, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jDhR8nl+mtYN for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.84]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD6E53A6A91 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 1112 invoked from network); 10 Jun 2009 13:58:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.84) with ESMTP; 10 Jun 2009 13:58:52 -0000 Message-ID: <30203B6EA0174F8B934A6603830C5FE8@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:53:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:58:46 -0000 Debbie Garside wrote: > --- > > In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for > registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST > supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC > to encode the entity and that the request has been rejected. > > --- I guess the evidence would be in the form of an e-mail trail. > I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want > to register primary language subtags and then find that after the > event the ISO 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours > would have to be deprecated. This is a good point. But I can imagine JAC turning down a request at first, when presented by an individual with a few Web references (who proceeds to persuade the Reviewer to register it), and then subsequently approving a later request for the same entity when presented by a national standards body citing more "serious" references. That would cause ietf-languages to have to deprecate the primary language subtag anyway. There is already considerable churn in ISO 639-3, certainly more than we've seen with the other parts (although perhaps commensurate with the difference in scope). I wouldn't fight hard against making this change, I just didn't see it as necessary. I do feel, as others do, that it is highly unlikely that ietf-languages and the Reviewer will ever approve a non-639 primary language subtag, either one that has not been presented to 639 or one that has been rejected. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Wed Jun 10 07:12:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD6CF28C166 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nxzZnxmIHfd0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B62F28C168 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009469869.msg for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:31:10 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:31:10 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from Vickynew ([213.208.115.6]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:11:51 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Mark Davis'" References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:03:13 +0100 Message-ID: <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_1D0B_01C9E9DC.93F3B8B0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acnp09bt7JM6S6/lSEePQIRffBccHAAAIFWA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:31:10 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:12:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_1D0B_01C9E9DC.93F3B8B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That=92s excellent! Adding in the 180 days part will also help with the re-organization of the ISO 639 JAC and ISO 639 registration/change = request processes that is currently on-going. I am putting together proposals = that will hopefully see the time element of the registration/change request process reduced to less than 6 months =96 at the moment there is no time limit. This wording will support the need for a more streamlined ISO = 639 process. =20 One final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words = =93or its successor=94 after =93ISO 639 JAC=94. =20 Kind regards =20 Debbie=20 =20 _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: 10 June 2009 14:58 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) =20 I could live with no change, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with = some changes. The advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make it much clearer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process works; = and it does accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the = current language is good enough, and people are tired of this kind of tuning. My suggested changes are below. > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples = of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ = RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag = Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this = kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are discouraged: * Before a primary language subtag request could be accepted, the requester MUST supply evidence that a request for a language code was = made to the ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days previously, and that the request = was not accepted. * The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC. Changes were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove = dependency on particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a reasonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with = ISO or IETF that just hang). Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside wrote: Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and = it is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: --- In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST = supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode = the entity and that the request has been rejected. --- I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the = ISO 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be deprecated. Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. = Never leave room for doubt unless you need to. That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not = hold up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org"ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:HYPERLINK "mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org"ltru-bounces@ietf.org] = On Behalf Of Doug Ewell Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST, because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 HYPERLINK "http://www.ewellic.org" \nhttp://www.ewellic.org HYPERLINK "http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html" \nhttp://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html HYPERLINK "http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages" \nhttp://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =88 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list HYPERLINK "mailto:Ltru@ietf.org"Ltru@ietf.org HYPERLINK "https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" \nhttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list HYPERLINK "mailto:Ltru@ietf.org"Ltru@ietf.org HYPERLINK "https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru" \nhttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_1D0B_01C9E9DC.93F3B8B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That’s excellent!=A0 Adding = in the 180 days part will also help with the re-organization of the ISO 639 JAC and ISO 639 registration/change request processes that is currently on-going.=A0 I = am putting together proposals that will hopefully see the time element of the = registration/change request process reduced to less than 6 months – at the moment = there is no time limit.=A0 This wording will support the need for a more streamlined ISO = 639 process.

 

One final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words “or its successor” = after “ISO 639 JAC”.

 

Kind = regards

 

Debbie =

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 10 June 2009 = 14:58
To: = debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU = Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue = #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps = #12a)

 

I could live = with no change, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with some changes. The = advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make it much clearer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process works; and it does = accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the current language is good = enough, and people are tired of this kind of tuning.

My suggested changes are below.

<old>
> >        At the time this document was = created, there were no examples of
> >        this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
> >        discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
> >        registration with ISO 639, and = proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> >        JAC will be closely scrutinized by = the Language Subtag Reviewer
> >        before they are registered with = IANA.

</old>
<new style=3D"broken into separate sentences for = review">

At the time this document was created, there were no examples of = this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are = discouraged:

  • Before a primary language subtag request = could be accepted, the requester MUST supply evidence that a request for a = language code was made to the ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days previously, and = that the request was not accepted.
  • The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST = closely scrutinize any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ = MA-JAC.

</new>

Changes were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove = dependency on particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a reasonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with = ISO or IETF that just hang).


Mark

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk&g= t; wrote:

Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a = MUST and it
is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text:

---

In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for
registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST = supply
evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode = the
entity and that the request has been rejected.

---

I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first.  We really do not = want to
register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the = ISO
639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to = be
deprecated.

Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. =  Never
leave room for doubt unless you need to.

That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not = hold
up this document for a lengthy discussion on this.

Kind regards

Debbie


-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of Doug
Ewell
Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25
To: LTRU Working Group

Subject: Re: = [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with
MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

Martin J. D=FCrst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> = wrote:

> Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you = haven't
> already done so.

I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,
because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the = requester
to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, = nor
any way to enforce such a requirement anyway.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-language= s  ˆ

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009
17:53


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009
17:53





_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53

------=_NextPart_000_1D0B_01C9E9DC.93F3B8B0-- From prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Wed Jun 10 07:24:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8883A6B0B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:24:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.576 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.576 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id utHDGpZGo8Gs for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D63B3A688B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009469940.msg for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:43:44 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:43:44 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from Vickynew ([213.208.115.6]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:24:26 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Peter Constable'" , "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:15:31 +0100 Message-ID: <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: AcnpxodUY6n61jEcTPC8xGgLIeEUDQABHFYAAAHPH8AAAJs9sA== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:43:45 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:24:31 -0000 Peter wrote: >> Would that language get interpreted as saying IETF-languages can't = even discuss the details of a request until that has been done? I don't see any reason why a requester could not notify the list that a change request has been made and I also see no reason why IETF-languages could not discuss such a request. =20 In fact, given the new processes that we are hoping to introduce within = ISO it would be an excellent forum for the ISO management and verification = teams to reference. ISO needs input from the relevant communities in order to support the decision making process - linguistic/stakeholder/industry. =20 >>What problem is being fixed here? (I don't know that we have an = existing problem.) It is a matter of clarity. If we do not state that a requester MUST = first apply to the ISO 639 JAC there will always be the awkward cuss who comes along and causes a huge rumpus - we have had our fair share of these and sometimes it is better to dot the i's and cross the t's. It could save = us a lot of time in the future. Kind regards Debbie=20 Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 6:11 AM To: 'Doug Ewell'; 'LTRU Working Group' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and = it is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: ---=20 In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST = supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode = the entity and that the request has been rejected. --- I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the = ISO 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be deprecated. Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. = Never leave room for doubt unless you need to. That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not = hold up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Doug Ewell Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't = > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,=20 because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester=20 to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor = any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ^ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 From prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Wed Jun 10 07:31:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF77328C166 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:31:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6H6TrAF6Afpp for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 966F03A694E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009469992.msg for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:40 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:40 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from Vickynew ([213.208.115.6]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:31:23 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30203B6EA0174F8B934A6603830C5FE8@DGBP7M81> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:22:07 +0100 Message-ID: <1d1901c9e9d6$d5911ca0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acnp09bt2Ob6y+C9RJOqVjZlU/b9oAAAtl7g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 In-Reply-To: <30203B6EA0174F8B934A6603830C5FE8@DGBP7M81> X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:40 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:31:26 -0000 Doug wrote: >>I guess the evidence would be in the form of an e-mail trail. All change requests are publicized by the RA's in question (I believe). Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: Doug Ewell [mailto:doug@ewellic.org]=20 Sent: 10 June 2009 14:53 To: LTRU Working Group Cc: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Debbie Garside wrote: > ---=20 > > In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for=20 > registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST=20 > supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC=20 > to encode the entity and that the request has been rejected. > > --- I guess the evidence would be in the form of an e-mail trail. > I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want=20 > to register primary language subtags and then find that after the=20 > event the ISO 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours=20 > would have to be deprecated. This is a good point. But I can imagine JAC turning down a request at=20 first, when presented by an individual with a few Web references (who=20 proceeds to persuade the Reviewer to register it), and then subsequently = approving a later request for the same entity when presented by a=20 national standards body citing more "serious" references. That would=20 cause ietf-languages to have to deprecate the primary language subtag=20 anyway. There is already considerable churn in ISO 639-3, certainly=20 more than we've seen with the other parts (although perhaps commensurate = with the difference in scope). I wouldn't fight hard against making this change, I just didn't see it=20 as necessary. I do feel, as others do, that it is highly unlikely that ietf-languages=20 and the Reviewer will ever approve a non-639 primary language subtag,=20 either one that has not been presented to 639 or one that has been=20 rejected. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =88 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 10 08:12:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8390A28C138 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.574 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.574 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.275, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oPx2XQBzxv-8 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 592693A6C5A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,341,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="197828302" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:12:14 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4103.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.24]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFCCS5007699 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:14 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:03 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Alexey Melnikov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:10:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Thread-Index: AcnpuO8qcH1ntJIqTBSkrnEj4sGtdQAJAimw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:09 -0000 SSBzdXBwb3J0IHJlcGxhY2luZyBBQk5GIG5vdGF0aW9ucyBhcyBkb2N1bWVudGVkIGJ5IE1hcnRp biBpbiBhIHByZXZpb3VzIGVtYWlsIG9uIHRoaXMgdGhyZWFkIHdpdGggVSsgbm90YXRpb24uIEhv d2V2ZXIgSSBub3RlIHRoYXQgdGhlIEFCTkYgZm9yIHJlY29yZC1qYXIgaW4gU2VjdGlvbiAzLjEu MSBjb250YWlucyByZWZlcmVuY2VzIHRvIFVuaWNvZGUgY29kZSBwb2ludHMgaW4gdGhpcyBwcm9k 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bml2ZXJzaXR5DQo+ICMtIyBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnN3Lml0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcCAgIG1haWx0bzpk dWVyc3RAaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 10 08:12:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54AAA28C138 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.243 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.243 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.544, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mA8i7RznZPx3 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8963A6E6F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:09 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,341,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="197828314" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:12:15 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFCBn2030069 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:13 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:02 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnpso8evHiOnhFgTWuaCh4U6nn/6QAKa+dA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:10 -0000 SSBvcHBvc2UgdGhlIGNoYW5nZSBiZWNhdXNlIEkgY29uc2lkZXIgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnQgYSBtaXNy 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aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 10 08:12:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C295728C1DF for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sIRQSg9+Ispv for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF40E28C1BE for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,341,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="231159784" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:12:16 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFC30K030649 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:03 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:03 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Mark Davis Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:12:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnpspRC6uL0GfGJSqaLfHd7NG+YoAAKdlbg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <001a01c9e8a5$8d16cf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906090835m55b6da87xc34f8aee346ead3d@mail.gmail.com> <4A2F8490.5090903@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2F8490.5090903@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:22 -0000 SSBhbHNvIG9wcG9zZSBtYWtpbmcgdGhlIGNoYW5nZS4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xv YmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0gTGFiMTI2DQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlz 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08:15:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4AE3A6E6F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9zqi2NVD9fpz for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8C93A6C5A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:15:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MEPWS-0008OC-GV; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:15:28 -0400 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:15:28 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20090610151528.GI21239@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:15:27 -0000 Phillips, Addison scripsit: > I support replacing ABNF notations as documented by Martin in a previous > email on this thread with U+ notation. However I note that the ABNF > for record-jar in Section 3.1.1 contains references to Unicode code > points in this production: > > CHARS = (%x21-10FFFF) ; Unicode code points > > I want to know if we can keep this, or, failing that, what we're > supposed to change it to. Note that I got this particular production > from draft-iri (that would be your draft, Martin :-) ). That's needed for our (slight abuse of) ABNF; we don't change it. It's the stray references to characters in text that are being proposed for change. -- A poetical purist named Cowan [that's me: cowan@ccil.org] Once put the rest of us dowan. [on xml-dev] "Your verse would be sweeter http://www.ccil.org/~cowan If it only had metre And rhymes that didn't force me to frowan." [overpacked line!] --Michael Kay From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 08:17:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85CC128C20B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:17:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.439 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.439 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.140, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6x2NWTI5xVwQ for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE7A28C1FD for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:16:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:17:05 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:17:05 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:17:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: Acnpvm/Gh+BSUYOfS0Kej7owWkj0XAAHUUmQ Message-ID: References: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:17:00 -0000 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma= rtin J. D=FCrst" >> Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting >> character sequences. So: >> >> lines containing only the sequence "%%" (). >> ... >> The sequence '..' () in a field-body denotes a rang= e of >> >>> other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D)= . > I'm fine with adding the comma. I don't think the IETF uses '<' and '>',= =20 > so I'd prefer to leave them out. I'm OK with the comma; I agree that this is IETF, not Unicode, so we should= adopt IETF conventions. >> Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This >> is just as valid for other editions of TUS. > Fine with me to leave that out. I also would leave out the page number.=20 >> And does the reference have to >> be placed so awkwardly? I also wonder why have the reference to Unicode here--we wouldn't include i= t with every reference to an individual character, but at the same time the= re's nothing about a reference here that indicates the same reference appli= es in every other mention of specific characters. Rather, I think it would = make more sense to give a reference to Unicode at the end of the introducti= on: Specific characters that are mentioned in this document are to be interpret= ed as characters in the Unicode coded character set ([Unicode]). Character = references within ABNF will follow conventions for ABNF given in [RFC 5234]= . Character references outside ABNF will use a literal quotation and includ= e the Unicode code position, as recommended in RFC 5137. For example, "-" U= +002D. In other respects, I'm OK with the changes Martin suggested. Peter From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 10 08:21:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB0528C204 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.638 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.638 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.041, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rXmuTXiEDkNF for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0722428C1FD for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:21:31 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,342,1241395200"; d="scan'208,217";a="280160593" Received: from smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.17]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:21:37 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-4103.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFLU8q028513 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:21:30 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:21:30 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , "'Mark Davis'" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:21:28 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acnp09bt7JM6S6/lSEePQIRffBccHAAAIFWAAAKIHBA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> 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Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:22:40 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: John Cowan Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:22:37 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Thread-Index: Acnp3kw3dWyaCUHTRwOYVSJ8pGVZZAAAOZkw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090610151528.GI21239@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20090610151528.GI21239@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey, Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:22:40 -0000 SSBrbm93IHRoYXQncyB3aGF0IE1hcnRpbiBpcyBwcm9wb3NpbmcsIGJ1dCBJIHdhbnRlZCB0byBi ZSBzdXJlIHdlIGRpZG4ndCBvdmVybG9vayB0aGlzIGNhc2UuDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMN Ckdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlv biBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1P cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogSm9obiBDb3dhbiBbbWFpbHRvOmNvd2FuQGNj aWwub3JnXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEp1bmUgMTAsIDIwMDkgODoxNSBBTQ0KPiBUbzog UGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24NCj4gQ2M6ICJNYXJ0aW4gSi4gRMO8cnN0IjsgQWxleGV5IE1lbG5p a292OyBMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtMdHJ1XSBJc3N1ZSA2MzoN Cj4gDQo+IFBoaWxsaXBzLCBBZGRpc29uIHNjcmlwc2l0Og0KPiANCj4gPiBJIHN1cHBvcnQgcmVw bGFjaW5nIEFCTkYgbm90YXRpb25zIGFzIGRvY3VtZW50ZWQgYnkgTWFydGluIGluIGENCj4gcHJl dmlvdXMNCj4gPiBlbWFpbCBvbiB0aGlzIHRocmVhZCB3aXRoIFUrIG5vdGF0aW9uLiBIb3dldmVy 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c3dlZXRlciAgICAgICAgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5jY2lsLm9yZy9+Y293YW4NCj4gICAgIElmIGl0IG9u bHkgaGFkIG1ldHJlDQo+IEFuZCByaHltZXMgdGhhdCBkaWRuJ3QgZm9yY2UgbWUgdG8gZnJvd2Fu LiIgICAgIFtvdmVycGFja2VkIGxpbmUhXQ0KPiAtLU1pY2hhZWwgS2F5DQo= From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 08:23:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2FF3A68D9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:23:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.583 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.583 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AuWKx2fkLPRK for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639E53A6B5B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:23:51 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:23:47 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , 'Mark Davis' Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:23:47 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acnp09bt7JM6S6/lSEePQIRffBccHAAAIFWAAAKwwnA= Message-ID: References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> In-Reply-To: <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED1NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:23:51 -0000 --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED1NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "...at least 180 days previously..." Does that mean if a request was made to the JAC ten years ago and rejected = then it can proceed in IETF-languages? Or did you, rather, mean that the re= quest should have gone to the JAC _within the past 180 days_? Btw, I'm worried that we're going to rat-hole on getting the wording right = to fix a problem that, AFAICT, doesn't exist. Peter From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Deb= bie Garside Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:03 AM To: 'Mark Davis' Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlangua= ge in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) That's excellent! Adding in the 180 days part will also help with the re-o= rganization of the ISO 639 JAC and ISO 639 registration/change request proc= esses that is currently on-going. I am putting together proposals that wil= l hopefully see the time element of the registration/change request process= reduced to less than 6 months - at the moment there is no time limit. Thi= s wording will support the need for a more streamlined ISO 639 process. One final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words "or it= s successor" after "ISO 639 JAC". Kind regards Debbie ________________________________ From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On B= ehalf Of Mark Davis Sent: 10 June 2009 14:58 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlangua= ge in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) I could live with no change, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with som= e changes. The advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make it much c= learer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process works; and = it does accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the current = language is good enough, and people are tired of this kind of tuning. My suggested changes are below. > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA= - > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind = of subtag. Future registrations of this type are discouraged: * Before a primary language subtag request could be accepted, the reques= ter MUST supply evidence that a request for a language code was made to the= ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days previously, and that the request was not acc= epted. * The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rej= ected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC. Changes were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove dependency = on particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a re= asonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with ISO or= IETF that just hang). Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside > wrote: Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and it is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: --- In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode the entity and that the request has been rejected. --- I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the IS= O 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be deprecated. Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. Never leave room for doubt unless you need to. That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not hold up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-boun= ces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Doug Ewell Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST, because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ^ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53 --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED1NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

“…at least 180 days previously…”

 

Does that mean if a request was made to the JAC ten years ag= o and rejected then it can proceed in IETF-languages? Or did you, rather, mea= n that the request should have gone to the JAC _within the past 180 days_?

 

 

Btw, I’m worried that we’re going to rat-hole on= getting the wording right to fix a problem that, AFAICT, doesn’t exist.

 

 

Peter

 

From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of De= bbie Garside
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:03 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

 

That’s excellent!  Adding in the 180 days part will = also help with the re-organization of the ISO 639 JAC and ISO 639 registration/change request processes that is currently on-going.  I am putting together proposals that will hopefully see the time element of the registration/chan= ge request process reduced to less than 6 months – at the moment there i= s no time limit.  This wording will support the need for a more streamlined ISO = 639 process.

 

One final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words “or its successor” after “ISO 639 JAC”.<= /o:p>

 

Kind regards

 

Debbie

 

From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Beha= lf Of Mark Davis
Sent: 10 June 2009 14:58
To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

 

I could live with no ch= ange, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with some changes. The advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make it much clearer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process works; and it does accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the current language is good eno= ugh, and people are tired of this kind of tuning.

My suggested changes are below.

<old>
> >        At the time this document was created, there were no examples of
> >        this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
> >        discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
> >        registration with ISO 639, and proposa= ls rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> >        JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
> >        before they are registered with IANA.<= br>
</old>
<new style=3D"broken into separate sentences for review">

At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are discouraged:

  • Before a primary language subtag request coul= d be accepted, the requester MUST supply evidence that a request for a lang= uage code was made to the ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days previously, and tha= t the request was not accepted.
  • The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC.

</new>

Changes were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove dependency = on particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a reasonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with ISO = or IETF that just hang).


Mark

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk> wrote:

Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better = to have a MUST and it
is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text:

---

In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for
registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST supply=
evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode the=
entity and that the request has been rejected.

---

I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first.  We really do not want t= o
register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the IS= O
639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be
deprecated.

Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change.  N= ever
leave room for doubt unless you need to.

That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not hold<= br> up this document for a lengthy discussion on this.

Kind regards

Debbie


-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf = Of Doug
Ewell
Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25
To: LTRU Working Group

Subject: Re: [Ltru] Iss= ue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with
MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

Martin J. D=FCrst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot jp> wrote:

> Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't=
> already done so.

I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,
because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester
to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor any way to enforce such a requirement anyway.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, Colorado, USA  *  RFC 4645 &nb= sp;*  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org=
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html
http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages<= /a>  ˆ

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9
17:53


Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9
17:53





_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

 

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.=
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53

 

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.=
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/200= 9 17:53

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED1NAEXMSGC117re_-- From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 08:25:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B517D3A6B12 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:25:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.584 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.584 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.015, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kINY5-zU-MFe for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2A8E3A694E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:25:55 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:25:54 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , 'Doug Ewell' , 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:25:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnpxodUY6n61jEcTPC8xGgLIeEUDQABHFYAAAHPH8AAAJs9sAACuL0g Message-ID: References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> In-Reply-To: <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:25:50 -0000 From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]=20 >>What problem is being fixed here? (I don't know that we have an existing problem.) > It is a matter of clarity. If we do not state that a requester MUST firs= t > apply to the ISO 639 JAC there will always be the awkward cuss who comes > along and causes a huge rumpus - we have had our fair share of these and > sometimes it is better to dot the i's and cross the t's. It could save u= s a > lot of time in the future. You say, "we have had our fair share of these", but in over ten years parti= cipating in IETF-languages I don't recall any serious problems having arise= n of the type we're discussing. Peter From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 08:27:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A58A728C1C0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:27:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.435, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s83F-NFbcJBM for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9139628C1BB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:27:15 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:27:15 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:27:15 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnpso8evHiOnhFgTWuaCh4U6nn/6QAKa+dAAADmi8A= Message-ID: References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:27:09 -0000 SW4gdGhhdCBjYXNlLCBtaWdodCBpdCBtYWtlIHNlbnNlIHRvIGNvbnNpZGVyIHRoZSBjaGFuZ2Ug SSBzdWdnZXN0ZWQ/DQoNClBldGVyDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9t OiBsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgW21haWx0bzpsdHJ1LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9u IEJlaGFsZiBPZiBQaGlsbGlwcywgQWRkaXNvbg0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBKdW5lIDEwLCAy MDA5IDg6MTIgQU0NClRvOiAiTWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdCI7IEtlbnQgS2FybHNzb24NCkNjOiBM VFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXANClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbTHRydV0gSXNzdWUgIzYxOiBQcm9ibGVt IHdpdGggTUFZIGluIDMuNSBvbiBEZXNjcmlwdGlvbiBlcnJhdGEoQXBwcyAjMTMpDQoNCkkgb3Bw 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMdHJ1QGlldGYu b3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0KX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCkx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQpMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZv L2x0cnUNCg== From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 08:28:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C1C73A6BF9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:28:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.567 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.567 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.032, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YjhsC7ozTqcp for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 391DB28C1BB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:28:47 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:28:47 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: John Cowan , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:28:46 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Thread-Index: Acnp3lihWeiVF3f+SgWGv2diZ/k62gAAa3Xg Message-ID: References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090610151528.GI21239@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20090610151528.GI21239@mercury.ccil.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:28:47 -0000 I agree: we don't change references in ABNF but, rather, keep those consist= ent with conventions given in RFC 5234. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joh= n Cowan Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:15 AM To: Phillips, Addison Cc: Alexey Melnikov; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Phillips, Addison scripsit: > I support replacing ABNF notations as documented by Martin in a previous > email on this thread with U+ notation. However I note that the ABNF > for record-jar in Section 3.1.1 contains references to Unicode code > points in this production: >=20 > CHARS =3D (%x21-10FFFF) ; Unicode code points >=20 > I want to know if we can keep this, or, failing that, what we're > supposed to change it to. Note that I got this particular production > from draft-iri (that would be your draft, Martin :-) ). That's needed for our (slight abuse of) ABNF; we don't change it. It's the= stray references to characters in text that are being proposed for change. --=20 A poetical purist named Cowan [that's me: cowan@ccil.org] Once put the rest of us dowan. [on xml-dev] "Your verse would be sweeter http://www.ccil.org/~cowan If it only had metre And rhymes that didn't force me to frowan." [overpacked line!] --Michae= l Kay _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 08:31:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71A143A6B12 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:31:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.418 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.418 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.119, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SMPGYlsEGSG5 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailb.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 834503A6BF9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.24.67) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:31:36 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.24.67]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:31:36 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Peter Constable , =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:31:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: Acnpvm/Gh+BSUYOfS0Kej7owWkj0XAAHUUmQAAEsrgA= Message-ID: References: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:31:31 -0000 Addendum: It seems to me that our reference to Unicode should be normative = rather than informative. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pet= er Constable Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:17 AM To: "Martin J. D=FCrst"; Kent Karlsson Cc: Alexey Melnikov; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma= rtin J. D=FCrst" >> Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting >> character sequences. So: >> >> lines containing only the sequence "%%" (). >> ... >> The sequence '..' () in a field-body denotes a rang= e of >> >>> other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D)= . > I'm fine with adding the comma. I don't think the IETF uses '<' and '>',= =20 > so I'd prefer to leave them out. I'm OK with the comma; I agree that this is IETF, not Unicode, so we should= adopt IETF conventions. >> Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This >> is just as valid for other editions of TUS. > Fine with me to leave that out. I also would leave out the page number.=20 >> And does the reference have to >> be placed so awkwardly? I also wonder why have the reference to Unicode here--we wouldn't include i= t with every reference to an individual character, but at the same time the= re's nothing about a reference here that indicates the same reference appli= es in every other mention of specific characters. Rather, I think it would = make more sense to give a reference to Unicode at the end of the introducti= on: Specific characters that are mentioned in this document are to be interpret= ed as characters in the Unicode coded character set ([Unicode]). Character = references within ABNF will follow conventions for ABNF given in [RFC 5234]= . Character references outside ABNF will use a literal quotation and includ= e the Unicode code position, as recommended in RFC 5137. For example, "-" U= +002D. In other respects, I'm OK with the changes Martin suggested. Peter _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 10 08:36:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E11328C1B0 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:36:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.033, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2i0CaX0CvnV4 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25EC63A6B12 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,342,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="197840400" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:36:32 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFaVs3027770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:36:32 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:36:31 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , "'Doug Ewell'" , "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:36:29 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnpxodUY6n61jEcTPC8xGgLIeEUDQABHFYAAAHPH8AAAJs9sAACuL0gAAAUvoA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890570F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:36:27 -0000 PiANCj4gPj5XaGF0IHByb2JsZW0gaXMgYmVpbmcgZml4ZWQgaGVyZT8gKEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyB0 aGF0IHdlIGhhdmUgYW4NCj4gZXhpc3RpbmcNCj4gcHJvYmxlbS4pDQo+IA0KPiA+IEl0IGlzIGEg bWF0dGVyIG9mIGNsYXJpdHkuICBJZiB3ZSBkbyBub3Qgc3RhdGUgdGhhdCBhIHJlcXVlc3Rlcg0K 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From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 10 08:37:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C8F028C210 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:37:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.424 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.424 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.125, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7FWWAJoDbkmr for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50A8928C20F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:37:30 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,342,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="231170969" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:37:36 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFbTrw006082 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:37:35 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:37:28 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:37:26 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: Acnpvm/Gh+BSUYOfS0Kej7owWkj0XAAHUUmQAAEsrgAAADhSEA== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8905712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:37:31 -0000 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQpIE5vdGVkLCBhc3N1bWluZyBjaGFpciBkZXRlcm1pbmF0aW9uIHRoYXQgdGhp cyBjaGFuZ2Ugc2hvdWxkIGdvIGluLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9u IEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVh dHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2Fn ZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNl 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X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 779B128C209 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:38:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.106 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.106 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.407, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CxcChC+kG3of for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF403A6B12 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:38:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,342,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="231171534" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 10 Jun 2009 15:38:53 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5AFcqmI022998 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:38:53 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:38:52 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Peter Constable , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:38:51 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnpso8evHiOnhFgTWuaCh4U6nn/6QAKa+dAAADmi8AAAGTS8A== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:38:48 -0000 WWVzLiBJJ20gYWdyZWVhYmxlIHRvIHRoYXQgY2hhbmdlLg0KDQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpH bG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24g aXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3Jp Z2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IFBldGVyIENvbnN0YWJsZSBbbWFpbHRvOnBldGVy Y29uQG1pY3Jvc29mdC5jb21dDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSnVuZSAxMCwgMjAwOSA4OjI3 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Yy5qcCAgIG1haWx0bzpkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwDQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K PiA+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL2x0cnUNCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18NCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5p ZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== From prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Wed Jun 10 09:18:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC82D28C210 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:18:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JjvzsudRWZc4 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E2DF28C211 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009470542.msg for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:37:58 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:37:58 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1412558fed=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:18:41 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Phillips, Addison'" , "'Mark Davis'" References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew><30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:18:22 +0100 Message-ID: <05aa01c9e9e7$13b6e400$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05AB_01C9E9EF.757B4C00" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 thread-index: Acnp09bt7JM6S6/lSEePQIRffBccHAAAIFWAAAKIHBAAAfjAgA== X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:38:00 +0100 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' , 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:18:47 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_05AB_01C9E9EF.757B4C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Addison wrote: =20 >> In Debbie=92s proposal: =20 >>=95 The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize = any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC. =20 >>I laughed at this one. The LSR must closely scrutinize any proposal, = one would hope. =20 This was not my proposal, but I think the intention was to say that proposals rejected by the JAC would have the reasons for rejection = closely scrutinised by the Language Subtag Reviewer. =20 I don't want this to become a show stopper. I think if we could word something during the course of the next 12 hours that gains consensus = then we make the change otherwise I think we can all live with the text as = is. =20 Kind regards =20 Debbie _____ =20 From: Phillips, Addison [mailto:addison@amazon.com]=20 Sent: 10 June 2009 16:21 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Mark Davis' Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language = withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) I oppose making these changes, not because Debbie=92s text wouldn=92t = make things clearer, but rather because the point of this paragraph was = precisely that it did NOT forbid attempts to register primary language subtags. = Each such request would be judged on its own merits. But the WG wanted to = give clear-enough guidance that it was unlikely that such a registration = attempt would succeed. =20 In Debbie=92s proposal: =20 =95 The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC. =20 I laughed at this one. The LSR must closely scrutinize any proposal, one would hope. =20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 =20 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. =20 From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Debbie Garside Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:03 AM To: 'Mark Davis' Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; 'Doug Ewell' Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) =20 That=92s excellent! Adding in the 180 days part will also help with the re-organization of the ISO 639 JAC and ISO 639 registration/change = request processes that is currently on-going. I am putting together proposals = that will hopefully see the time element of the registration/change request process reduced to less than 6 months =96 at the moment there is no time limit. This wording will support the need for a more streamlined ISO = 639 process. =20 One final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words = =93or its successor=94 after =93ISO 639 JAC=94. =20 Kind regards =20 Debbie=20 =20 _____ =20 From: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = On Behalf Of Mark Davis Sent: 10 June 2009 14:58 To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) =20 I could live with no change, but Debbie's change would also be ok, with = some changes. The advantage of Debbie's approach is that we can make it much clearer who has the responsibility for what, and how the process works; = and it does accommodate Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the = current language is good enough, and people are tired of this kind of tuning. My suggested changes are below. > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples = of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ = RA- > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag = Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this = kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are discouraged: * Before a primary language subtag request could be accepted, the requester MUST supply evidence that a request for a language code was = made to the ISO 639 JAC at least 180 days previously, and that the request = was not accepted.=20 * The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC.=20 Changes were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove = dependency on particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a reasonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with = ISO or IETF that just hang). Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside = wrote: Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and = it is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: --- In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for registration within the Language Subtag Registry, the requester MUST = supply evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC to encode = the entity and that the request has been rejected. --- I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC first. We really do not want to register primary language subtags and then find that after the event the = ISO 639 JAC allocate their own subtag - which means ours would have to be deprecated. Thus I agree with Alexey and think it advisable to make the change. = Never leave room for doubt unless you need to. That said, I think we all know what we are about here and I would not = hold up this document for a lengthy discussion on this. Kind regards Debbie -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = Doug Ewell Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25 To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Please express your preference (and the reasons for it) if you haven't > already done so. I agree that there is no need to change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST, because I don't see any particular advantage to requiring the requester to go to ISO 639 first instead of strongly encouraging her to do so, nor any way to enforce such a requirement anyway. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages =88 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 =20 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: = 30/04/2009 17:53 ------=_NextPart_000_05AB_01C9E9EF.757B4C00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Addison wrote:
 

>> In Debbie=92s=20 proposal:

 

>>=95    &nbs= p;       =20 The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals = rejected by=20 ISO 639/ MA-JAC.

 

>>I laughed at this one. The LSR = must=20 closely scrutinize any proposal, one would hope.

 

This was not my proposal, but I think the = intention was=20 to say that proposals rejected by the JAC would have the reasons for=20 rejection closely scrutinised by the Language Subtag=20 Reviewer.

 

I don't want this to become a show = stopper.  I=20 think if we could word something during the course of the next 12 hours = that=20 gains consensus then we make the change otherwise I think we can all = live with=20 the text as is.

 

Kind regards

 

Debbie


From: Phillips, Addison=20 [mailto:addison@amazon.com]
Sent: 10 June 2009 = 16:21
To:=20 debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk; 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working = Group';=20 'Doug Ewell'
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace = RECOMMENDED=20 language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

I=20 oppose making these changes, not because Debbie=92s text wouldn=92t = make things=20 clearer, but rather because the point of this paragraph was precisely = that it=20 did NOT forbid attempts to register primary language subtags. Each = such=20 request would be judged on its own merits. But the WG wanted to give=20 clear-enough guidance that it was unlikely that such a registration = attempt=20 would succeed.

 

In=20 Debbie=92s proposal:

 

=95       &nbs= p;    =20 The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals = rejected by=20 ISO 639/ MA-JAC.

 

I=20 laughed at this one. The LSR must closely scrutinize any proposal, one = would=20 hope.

 

Addison=20 Phillips

Globalization=20 Architect -- Lab126

 

Internationalization=20 is not a feature.

It=20 is an architecture.

 

From:=20 ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=20 Debbie Garside
Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 7:03=20 AM
To: 'Mark Davis'
Cc: 'LTRU Working Group'; = 'Doug=20 Ewell'
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED = language=20 with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps = #12a)

 

That=92s=20 excellent!  Adding in the 180 days part will also help with the=20 re-organization of the ISO 639 JAC and ISO 639 registration/change = request=20 processes that is currently on-going.  I am putting together = proposals=20 that will hopefully see the time element of the registration/change = request=20 process reduced to less than 6 months =96 at the moment there is no = time=20 limit.  This wording will support the need for a more streamlined = ISO 639=20 process.

 

One=20 final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words =93or = its=20 successor=94 after =93ISO 639 JAC=94.

 

Kind=20 regards

 

Debbie=20

 

From:=20 mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On = Behalf=20 Of Mark Davis
Sent: 10 June 2009 14:58
To:=20 debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk
Cc: Doug Ewell; LTRU Working=20 Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED = language=20 with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

 

I could live with = no change,=20 but Debbie's change would also be ok, with some changes. The advantage = of=20 Debbie's approach is that we can make it much clearer who has the=20 responsibility for what, and how the process works; and it does = accommodate=20 Alexey's request. The disadvantage is that the current language is = good=20 enough, and people are tired of this kind of tuning.

My = suggested=20 changes are below.

<old>
> >     =   =20 At the time this document was created, there were no examples = of
> >=20        this kind of subtag and future = registrations of=20 this type are
> >        discouraged: = primary=20 languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
> >     =  =20  registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/=20 RA-
> >        JAC will be closely = scrutinized by=20 the Language Subtag Reviewer
> >       =  before=20 they are registered with IANA.

</old>
<new = style=3D"broken=20 into separate sentences for review">

At the time this document was created, there were = no=20 examples of this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are = discouraged:

  • Before=20 a primary language subtag request could be accepted, the requester = MUST=20 supply evidence that a request for a language code was made to the = ISO 639=20 JAC at least 180 days previously, and that the request was not=20 accepted.=20
  • The=20 Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals = rejected by=20 ISO 639/ MA-JAC.

</new>

Changes=20 were in grammar (simplify and make more direct), remove dependency on=20 particular agents, and to account for the JAC not responding within a=20 reasonable period (no problem currently, but we've all seen cases with = ISO or=20 IETF that just hang).


Mark

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 06:11, Debbie Garside = <debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk&g= t;=20 wrote:

Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be = better to=20 have a MUST and it
is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed=20 text:

---

In order for a primary language subtag request = to be=20 considered for
registration within the Language Subtag Registry, = the=20 requester MUST supply
evidence that they have previously applied to = the ISO=20 639 JAC to encode the
entity and that the request has been=20 rejected.

---

I do see the need to go to ISO 639 JAC = first.=20  We really do not want to
register primary language subtags = and then=20 find that after the event the ISO
639 JAC allocate their own subtag = - which=20 means ours would have to be
deprecated.

Thus I agree with = Alexey and=20 think it advisable to make the change.  Never
leave room for = doubt=20 unless you need to.

That said, I think we all know what we are = about=20 here and I would not hold
up this document for a lengthy discussion = on=20 this.

Kind regards

Debbie


-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org = [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On = Behalf Of=20 Doug
Ewell
Sent: 10 June 2009 13:25
To: LTRU Working=20 Group

Subject: Re: [Ltru] = Issue #59:=20 replace RECOMMENDED language with
MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps=20 #12a)

Martin J. D=FCrst <duerst at it dot aoyama dot ac dot = jp>=20 wrote:

> Please express your preference (and the reasons for = it) if=20 you haven't
> already done so.

I agree that there is no = need to=20 change this RECOMMENDED to a MUST,
because I don't see any = particular=20 advantage to requiring the requester
to go to ISO 639 first instead = of=20 strongly encouraging her to do so, nor
any way to enforce such a=20 requirement anyway.

--
Doug Ewell  *  Thornton, = Colorado,=20 USA  *  RFC 4645  *  UTN #14
http://www.ewellic.org
http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html<= BR>http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages<= /A>=20 =  =88

_______________________________________________
Ltru = mailing=20 list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru=

Internal Virus Database is = out-of-date.
Checked by=20 AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.12.11/2089 - Release = Date:=20 30/04/2009
17:53


Internal Virus Database is=20 out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database:=20 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/2009
17:53





_______________________________________= ________
Ltru=20 mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru=

 

Internal Virus Database is=20 out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database:=20 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/2009 17:53

 

Internal Virus Database is=20 out-of-date.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database:=20 270.12.11/2089 - Release Date: 30/04/2009=20 17:53

------=_NextPart_000_05AB_01C9E9EF.757B4C00-- From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 09:27:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D395428C211 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:27:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.039, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUQC6eLn2mie for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC69A3A68A7 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:27:13 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2FDEA7.3010405@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:26:15 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A2F8C65.8030009@isode.com> <4A2F8F4C.3040200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:27:08 -0000 Phillips, Addison wrote: >I support replacing ABNF notations as documented by Martin in a previous email on this thread with U+ notation. However I note that the ABNF for record-jar in Section 3.1.1 contains references to Unicode code points in this production: > > CHARS = (%x21-10FFFF) ; Unicode code points > >I want to know if we can keep this, or, failing that, what we're supposed to change it to. Note that I got this particular production from draft-iri (that would be your draft, Martin :-) ). > > Keep ABNF as is. From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 09:34:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB893A6BDD for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:34:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.962 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.962 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.586, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ICFFsh32PZwJ for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.174]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B77F3A6E8D for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 29so340415wff.31 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:35:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=OPqeZJp+8FPHBo93O4inxTAK6kbSnD0Oup7zOLCKF40=; b=v0F9EK4egn/yKJm07h42i/yI1DOS1Bbeo/U8r5U4qiDgJBcvYs7NZgaPJOybUKn2T4 DL5I2DFeg3DEr0dBmYzVzbok8ScPMZNcLwn2pdXsXdrvM3gboPA4ii28mJs8tEsCt5Qw 01s2JGLdOmy7FHmrAj/tC0m8rEzuG+4ctEywM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=oT45dFeR8bmYyxc3p1WUDfW6oZm6U8a/wsbqus6zh4lCPyBGSYanzuRzsqQRdHnrQE jKxDjjPuyvs8gvt57bgU9IKkNvJPTJY9KIg9/++fPhmjbA/LKCltobQlIp8gvk3dpnmf 3jVougxIqsvXhgMJzuQiIEos2kGI5jSOBZAG4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.70.11 with SMTP id s11mr642221wfa.42.1244651703379; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:35:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:35:03 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: c5389efeaffd5fd4 Message-ID: <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e90729a62727046c010e6e Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:35:00 -0000 --001636e90729a62727046c010e6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the mark= , since it is still talking about "the community", which is not defined and has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is doing what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for comparison. Mark: The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of intent, and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry. OLD > > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable > > and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts > > to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry > > itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions > > in Section 3.4. > Alexey: > Suggested replacement for the paragraph: > > The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be > stable. Corrections (possibly as errata) and updates are > permitted with adequate justification. However, addition > of translations or transliterations are not considered > sufficient justification for corrections or updates. Peter: The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community= , but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable. Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:38, Phillips, Addison wrote= : > Yes. I'm agreeable to that change. > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:27 AM > > To: Phillips, Addison; "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"; Kent Karlsson > > Cc: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on > > Description errata(Apps #13) > > > > In that case, might it make sense to consider the change I > > suggested? > > > > Peter > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:12 AM > > To: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"; Kent Karlsson > > Cc: LTRU Working Group > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on > > Description errata(Apps #13) > > > > I oppose the change because I consider the comment a misreading. > > Perhaps the sentence should be split into several separate > > sentences in order to separate normative from informative. However, > > the MAY keyword is there specifically to allow errata corrections > > (a problem that was raised during the development of this document). > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > > Behalf Of "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:02 AM > > > To: Kent Karlsson > > > Cc: LTRU Working Group > > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on > > > Description errata(Apps #13) > > > > > > [hats on] > > > > > > I currently have Kent, Randy, Peter, and myself down as against > > > changes > > > on this issue. There are also some eventuality proposals for new > > > text, > > > but these are currently not relevant. Please express your > > > preference > > > (and the reasons for it) if you haven't already done so. If you > > > have > > > expressed your opinion, but I haven't considered it, please also > > > say so. > > > > > > Unless somebody expresses a preference (and reason) for making a > > > change, > > > I'll declare consensus on this issue tomorrow my morning. > > > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > > > > > > On 2009/06/10 1:54, Kent Karlsson wrote: > > > > I agree. > > > > > > > > /kent k > > > > > > > > Den 2009-06-09 18.35, skrev "Peter > > > Constable": > > > > > > > >> I also don't think a change is necessary. > > > >> > > > >> I agree with Randy: this use of MAY is indicating an optional > > > activity that > > > >> must be anticipated by implementations. I think the wording > > > could be better; > > > >> e.g. something along this line: > > > >> > > > >> "The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for > > errata > > > corrections > > > >> or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by > > > the community, > > > >> but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of > > > entries in the > > > >> registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community > > > or rejected > > > >> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the > > > provisions in > > > >> Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, > > > since > > > >> modifications are possible, the Description field is not > > > guaranteed to be > > > >> stable." > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> A change to the text I've given here would be editorial, not > > > technical, in > > > >> nature. I don't consider it necessary or highly important, but > > > would be open > > > >> to that change should the editors be so inclined. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Ltru mailing list > > > > Ltru@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > > > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Ltru mailing list > > > Ltru@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --001636e90729a62727046c010e6e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the = mark, since it is still talking about "the community", which is n= ot defined and has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense = of who is doing what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formu= lations for comparison.

Mark:

The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of intent, and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry.

OLD
> > =C2=A0 = =C2=A0While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be = stable
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time t= o time, attempts
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0to provide translations or transcriptions of entries= in the registry
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0itself will probably be frowned upon by the communit= y or rejected
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0outright, as changes of this nature have an impact o= n the provisions
> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0in Section 3.4.
>

Alexey:

> Suggested replacement for the paragraph:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed = to be
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable. =C2=A0Corrections (possibly as errata) and update= s are
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0permitted with adequate justification. =C2=A0 However, ad= dition
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0of translations or transliterations are not considered > =C2=A0 =C2=A0sufficient justification for corrections or updates.
<= br>Peter:

The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for e= rrata corrections or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community, but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable.

= Mark


On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:38, Phillips,= Addison <addiso= n@amazon.com> wrote:
Yes. I'm agreeable to that change.

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:27 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison; "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"; Kent Karlsson=
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #61:= Problem with MAY in 3.5 on
> Description errata(Apps #13)
>
> In that case, might it make sense to consider the change I
> suggested?
>
> Peter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Phillips, Addison
> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:12 AM
> To: "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"; Kent Karlsson
> Cc: LTRU Working Group
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on
> Description errata(Apps #13)
>
> I oppose the change because I consider the comment a misreading.
> Perhaps the sentence should be split into several separate
> sentences in order to separate normative from informative. However, > the MAY keyword is there specifically to allow errata corrections
> (a problem that was raised during the development of this document). >
> Addison Phillips
> Globalization Architect -- Lab126
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.= org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.= org] On
> > Behalf Of "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:02 AM
> > To: Kent Karlsson
> > Cc: LTRU Working Group
> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on
> > Description errata(Apps #13)
> >
> > [hats on]
> >
> > I currently have Kent, Randy, Peter, and myself down as against > > changes
> > on this issue. There are also some eventuality proposals for new<= br> > > text,
> > but these are currently not relevant. Please express your
> > preference
> > (and the reasons for it) if you haven't already done so. If y= ou
> > have
> > expressed your opinion, but I haven't considered it, please a= lso
> > say so.
> >
> > Unless somebody expresses a preference (and reason) for making a<= br> > > change,
> > I'll declare consensus on this issue tomorrow my morning.
> >
> > Regards, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.
> >
> >
> > On 2009/06/10 1:54, Kent Karlsson wrote:
> > > I agree.
> > >
> > > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/kent k
> > >
> > > Den 2009-06-09 18.35, skrev "Peter
> > Constable"<pete= rcon@microsoft.com>:
> > >
> > >> I also don't think a change is necessary.
> > >>
> > >> I agree with Randy: this use of MAY is indicating an opt= ional
> > activity that
> > >> must be anticipated by implementations. I think the word= ing
> > could be better;
> > >> e.g. something along this line:
> > >>
> > >> "The Description field MAY be modified. Modificatio= ns for
> errata
> > corrections
> > >> or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptab= le by
> > the community,
> > >> but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions o= f
> > entries in the
> > >> registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the com= munity
> > or rejected
> > >> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on th= e
> > provisions in
> > >> Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note t= hat,
> > since
> > >> modifications are possible, the Description field is not=
> > guaranteed to be
> > >> stable."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> A change to the text I've given here would be editor= ial, not
> > technical, in
> > >> nature. I don't consider it necessary or highly impo= rtant, but
> > would be open
> > >> to that change should the editors be so inclined.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Peter
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Ltru mailing list
> > > Ltru@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> > >
> >
> > --
> > #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> > #-# h= ttp://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp =C2=A0 mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ltru mailing list
> > Ltru@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--001636e90729a62727046c010e6e-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 10 09:48:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26993A688B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.532 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.532 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.067, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G6flvEa0+yRG for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1422F28C238 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Byv7OmTUCzToosXoZR3iF9uJDws9TLRT9n9/CvOD/48i1W1tn3ywa/ggICnAD+sY; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.136] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MEQz1-0006Ak-JY for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:49:03 -0400 Message-ID: <003b01c9e9eb$642e1da0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A2E337D.4060202@it.aoyama.ac.jp><80FF3041110D4B69934418AD3418823E@DGBP7M81> <4A2F0827.1000809@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:49:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696819f6501ee33c46f543afa0630c191549350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.136 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:48:57 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Doug Ewell" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:11 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #43: AD #10 - section 5.1 vs 3.2 on File-Date value > > [hats on] > > I have counted 6 people in favor of the new text, and nobody against. > Editors, please replace the old text (see Kent's earlier mail in this > thread) with the text below. > > Randy, please close this issue. Done. Randy From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed Jun 10 09:54:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63D3628C22A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.189 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.189 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.212, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NgcrGLVrc3XD for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pz0-f191.google.com (mail-pz0-f191.google.com [209.85.222.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F6A28C221 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pzk29 with SMTP id 29so106073pzk.29 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=8cfklKb69ET+nlxmquBiHcZahD3sTire1QCaflbQ0SM=; b=DuneUwlZrbjNgtZXomjEJ+9O/mVpPGXYcVx+FwPkjhWPIm6VLlqJCxyjQ6H9PPanz2 4/v/8bbudOfUhclI3jbknBGQpjT5JBlMsAlVGgnec7uxQ1VlyJ3FQEU5mlFqagfNtvnq sHLJ8UvaOCF4H5KHVylHbgjJPINKHxycXdqHI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=H4GVsrI9MY6oV8ePp+E7vTl9auZfv4ap4Ru6D5eqqU9EHY8jC0VBt+Q79OfP0gd3nI TlM5lrsdt6R4Ntmd6hLKFzeQaemOcF0AghCREvQUpAPejIGIkbiQXzjoc/nOUxb7KmlW M1kcELk3kzymQ+SyMZoTqOsWwOThYawboya0w= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.14.18 with SMTP id 18mr603962wfn.35.1244652862327; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:54:22 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8d6def651d038962 Message-ID: <30b660a20906100954u5af1ce2fw2fb7ac6aeef0a291@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: Peter Constable Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1776aba4b10046c0153c3 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:54:18 -0000 --000e0cd1776aba4b10046c0153c3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh, ask Mike Ksar about trying to get a response from the IETF charset registry! But as I said, because the likelyhood of the text being invoked is so low, I'm ok with the current language, as imprecise as it is. Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:25, Peter Constable wrote: > From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk] > > >>What problem is being fixed here? (I don't know that we have an existing > problem.) > > > It is a matter of clarity. If we do not state that a requester MUST > first > > apply to the ISO 639 JAC there will always be the awkward cuss who comes > > along and causes a huge rumpus - we have had our fair share of these and > > sometimes it is better to dot the i's and cross the t's. It could save > us a > > lot of time in the future. > > You say, "we have had our fair share of these", but in over ten years > participating in IETF-languages I don't recall any serious problems having > arisen of the type we're discussing. > > > > Peter > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --000e0cd1776aba4b10046c0153c3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, ask Mike Ksar about trying to get a response from the IETF charset regi= stry!

But as I said, because the likelyhood of the text being invoke= d is so low, I'm ok with the current language, as imprecise as it is.
Mark


On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:25, Peter Con= stable <pete= rcon@microsoft.com> wrote:
From: Debbie Garside [mailto:d= ebbie@ictmarketing.co.uk]

>>What problem is being fixed here? (I don't know that we have an= existing
problem.)

> It is a matter of clarity. =C2=A0If we do not state that a requester M= UST first
> apply to the ISO 639 JAC there will always be the awkward cuss who com= es
> along and causes a huge rumpus - we have had our fair share of these a= nd
> sometimes it is better to dot the i's and cross the t's. =C2= =A0It could save us a
> lot of time in the future.

You say, "we have had our fair share of these", but in over= ten years participating in IETF-languages I don't recall any serious p= roblems having arisen of the type we're discussing.



Peter
__________________________________= _____________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--000e0cd1776aba4b10046c0153c3-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 10 09:57:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0DBB28C23E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:57:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.535 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.535 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Waic3OhLhN2a for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 080B428C239 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:57:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=QCH+CK206lsfaVJy+erWPmNUxmUvlnhe7D9lcH9mv4Z6Fvt+47y+/7wctqUT9clw; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.136] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MER7f-0005e3-ND for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:57:59 -0400 Message-ID: <008a01c9e9ec$a3831400$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com><4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A86ECDA4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2F0C92.7070002@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:58:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968ed55f01f87fa35ef54fc92dab77b28cb350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.136 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:57:53 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Phillips, Addison" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" ; "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:29 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential > > [hats on] > > I have counted five people (this includes Randy, who commented on the > general agreement with the need of doing something here in private) in > favor of adding the two text pieces below, and nobody against. > > I would like to ask the editors to integrate these texts into the newest > version of their draft, and Randy to close this issue. Done. Randy From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 10:06:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD58B3A6BE1 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.564 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.564 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.035, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lBDfK3oQK0Ww for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E17DB3A6B86 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.48) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:31 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.48]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:31 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , "debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk" , 'Doug Ewell' , 'LTRU Working Group' Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:31 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnpxodUY6n61jEcTPC8xGgLIeEUDQABHFYAAAHPH8AAAJs9sAACuL0gAAAUvoAAA1DjMA== Message-ID: References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890570F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890570F@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:06:25 -0000 V2UgaGF2ZSBleGFtcGxlcyBvZiB0YWdzIHRoYXQgZ290IHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQuIEJ1dCBhcyB5b3Ug c2F5LCB0aGF0IHdhcyBiZWZvcmUgNDY0NiwgYW5kIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgdGhlcmUgaGF2ZSBi ZWVuIGNhc2VzIGluIHdoaWNoIHNvbWVvbmUgd2FzIGFkdmlzZWQgdG8gc3RhcnQgd2l0aCB0aGUg SkFDIGFuZCBjcmVhdGVkIGRpZmZpY3VsdGllcyBieSByZWZ1c2luZyB0byBkbyBzby4NCg0KDQpQ ZXRlcg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlz b24gW21haWx0bzphZGRpc29uQGFtYXpvbi5jb21dIA0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBKdW5lIDEw LCAyMDA5IDg6MzYgQU0NClRvOiBQZXRlciBDb25zdGFibGU7IGRlYmJpZUBpY3RtYXJrZXRpbmcu 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(core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3YV3n39rbGOT for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (maila.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A88428C24E for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:58 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:55 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , Kent Karlsson Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:06:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: Acnpvm/Gh+BSUYOfS0Kej7owWkj0XAAHUUmQAAEsrgAAADhSEAADI/FQ Message-ID: References: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8905712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8905712@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:06:57 -0000 QWdyZWVkLg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFk ZGlzb24gW21haWx0bzphZGRpc29uQGFtYXpvbi5jb21dIA0KU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBKdW5l IDEwLCAyMDA5IDg6MzcgQU0NClRvOiBQZXRlciBDb25zdGFibGU7ICJNYXJ0aW4gSi4gRMO8cnN0 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J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bOitFJKQ22bI for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 478A128C239 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:09:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:09:23 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:09:22 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:09:22 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnp6Xw9o/0e6n1wT5aGrVlEEawnowABLDRQ Message-ID: References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92FADNAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:09:18 -0000 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X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.552 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.552 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GL3JY3gjnIJf for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D3128C157 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:15:12 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:15:10 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:15:09 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acnp7DyAV1D6EtPGQGmYUfC1C3OGzAAAhafQ Message-ID: References: <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30b660a20906100954u5af1ce2fw2fb7ac6aeef0a291@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906100954u5af1ce2fw2fb7ac6aeef0a291@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92FC1NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Doug Ewell Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX188YnI+DQpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdDxicj4N CjxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzpMdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnIj5MdHJ1QGlldGYub3JnPC9hPjxicj4NCjxh IGhyZWY9Imh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydSIgdGFyZ2V0 PSJfYmxhbmsiPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydTwvYT48 bzpwPjwvbzpwPjwvcD4NCg0KPC9kaXY+DQoNCjwvZGl2Pg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPHAgY2xhc3M9 TXNvTm9ybWFsPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KDQo8 L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92FC1NAEXMSGC117re_-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 10 11:06:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DF393A67FB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:06:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.537 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.537 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.062, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T0teikWblYAq for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F5503A67EB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:06:06 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=Iv610WxSWGFnmQF6ZTMHoFiNjT3ckWit44o92sldkr2sFf0dR8fkqe+4r9X+AdPx; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.136] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MESBg-0003rI-If for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:06:12 -0400 Message-ID: <003401c9e9f6$2af69700$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A2F888D.2010507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:06:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69684b42e9a93e965f8b9abd12c2b9ee7373350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.136 Subject: [Ltru] Issue #63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:06:07 -0000 Hi - It's in the tracker at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/ticket/63 Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:18 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Issue 63: > > [hats on] > > [Randy: I have assigned this the next number (63). Can you please put > this into the tracker accordingly. Thanks.] > > Alex has promised not to send us any issues anymore, but in discussion > with him, I have found out that there is one more that I think he would > really like to be handled, and so I'm trying to help him by sending this > to the WG myself. > > The commenter in the Application Area review commented that we should > use the U+00xx notation for identifying characters outside of ABNF. The > reasons given are that the notation from the ABNF isn't intended for use > outside the ABNF, and that it doesn't follow RFC 5137/BCP 137. > > Regards, Martin. > > -- > #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 11:11:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E34A3A6BEA for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:11:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.553 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.553 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.046, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0o+1zVN3FI+1 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A8393A683A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:11:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:11:46 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:10:45 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Peter Constable References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:11:41 -0000 Mark Davis wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 09:20, Peter Constable > wrote: > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org ] On > Behalf Of "Martin J. D=FCrst" > > >> Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see > >> Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be > >> available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > mechanically > >> depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service > >> attacks. > >> -- > >> > >> This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an > >> oversight. I actually thought it said both. > > > > Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently > > last paragraph in section 6: > > > > >>>> > > Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag > Extensions > > Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT > > mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent > > denial-of-service attacks. > > >>>> > > That text looks OK to me. > Yes. > > I agree that there is no evidence that a language tag implementation > > currently does frequent downloads. But there is evidence for > other cases > > of frequent downloads, where the frequency of changes is way > smaller or > > non-existent. > > > > I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as > follows: > > > > >>>> > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > frequent > > or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. > > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, > > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > particular > > registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents > changes > > only occasionally. Changes are announced to > > ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org > . > I hope you are not suggesting that every implementation that wants to=20 automatically download the registry should subscribe to this mailing=20 list ;-). > >Changes, or the absence thereof, > > > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record > at the > > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for > > downloading, without having to download the full registry. > > >>>> > This looks good in general. I would have expanded on how to do this in=20 HTTP, considering that the registry is exported over HTTP, but the=20 current text is good enough. > That also looks OK to me. > > > >>> It might also be worth discussing how the registry format > >>> facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. > >> > >> It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registry, > >> the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules > >> generally prevent breaking changes. > > > I think what Alex means is that the diff would significantly > reduce the > > amount of data that needs to be downloaded to update the > registry to a > > new version. > Yes. > But if we're directing implementations not to do real-time > automated downloads, then it seems that the amount of data > shouldn't be that much of an issue. > > > > Overall, I agree that we have discussed this issue before, but I > also > > understand that Alex is concerned, probably not only by himself, but > > also about the fact that his fellow IESG members might easily > bring up > > this issue as a "discuss". So I think it's better to have it clearly > > documented in the security section. > > That seems reasonable, and I think the text you suggested covers > the key issues. > From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 11:20:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4373A680F for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LeJXcDcygo4m for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5E623A688B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:20:30 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2FF932.8020308@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:19:30 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:20:31 -0000 Phillips, Addison wrote: >I think this is a potentially serious problem, although we did address it during document development (of RFC 4646). Some of the changes in this document have watered down the way we addressed it in that document. There is also a general recognition that mechanically retrieving the registry is a Bad Thing. > >>14). Language Tag validity verification requires applications to >>keep up-to-date copies of the Language Tag registry. >> >> >Actually, this is false. The validity text is careful to say "as of the particular registry date" when referring to validity. There is an expectation that most implementation will use a specific registry version. > Right. >>Such applications might be designed to automatically fetch new versions of the registry. >>This has three problems: >>I). IANA is generally not happy about applications automatically >>downloading registries, unless data is located in DNS. This is >>primarily to scaling concerns. >> >> >Obviously this would be a concern. In fact, Section 6 (Security Considerations) says: > >-- >Although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7 (Extensions and the Extensions Registry)) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent denial-of-service attacks. >-- > >This should also address the IANA registry. I think that's an oversight. I actually thought it said both. > > Agree. >>II). There is also the issue of when application should be fetching >>the >>updated registry. I.e. what is the mechanism(s) for determining >>when to fetch. >> >> >Usually: when you make a new or updated version of your software. Infrequent polling of the registry itself would also not be harmful. Neither would monitoring the list of registration forms (which IANA archives separately). > >However, there is also a specific mechanism in Section 5.1 for knowing when a change is made: > >-- >Developers who are dependent upon the language subtag registry sometimes would like to be informed of changes in the registry so that they can update their implementations. > The key word here is "developers", not "implementations" >When any change is made to the language subtag registry, IANA will send an announcement message to "ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org" (a self-subscribing list that only IANA can post to). >-- > > >>III). The registry format is not designed for figuring out the >>minimal >>list of changes between any 2 versions. For example there is no way >>of only fetching changes since a given File-Date value. >> >> >No, there isn't. The records do not contain a "last modified" date. Is this necessarily important? When I update one of my implementations, I just reparse the latest registry. > Updating a table which is a part of an implementation is not a concern, as it is done only once per implementation version. >Stability rules exist to protect my doing it this way. Since the records are not in any particular order, there isn't necessarily utility to using diff to reconstruct changes either. > > I was thinking that the registry showing templates () could be updated to show dates when each entry was approved. I think this would enable incremental updates. [snip] >>Regarding III): I think it is Ok for now to explicitly acknowledge >>that this is an issue. >> >>It might also be worth discussing how the registry format >>facilitates "diffing" 2 versions of the registry. >> >> >It's possible, although once you've parsed the new registry, the diff doesn't matter so much. Note that stability rules generally prevent breaking changes. > > See above. As a side note - diff like format would work nicely, as according to update rules, existing records can't move in the file. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 11:22:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5480F3A683A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.857 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.857 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.654, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8p25AYGdzgE6 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 237AF3A67FB for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:22:51 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2FF9BE.6050607@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:21:50 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Peter Constable References: <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:22:47 -0000 Peter Constable wrote: >Addendum: It seems to me that our reference to Unicode should be normative = rather than informative. > =20 > This is sensible. >Peter > >-----Original Message----- >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pet= er Constable >Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:17 AM >To: "Martin J. D=FCrst"; Kent Karlsson >Cc: Alexey Melnikov; LTRU Working Group >Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text > >From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Ma= rtin J. D=FCrst" > =20 > >>>Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting >>>character sequences. So: >>> >>> lines containing only the sequence "%%" (). >>>... >>> The sequence '..' () in a field-body denotes a range= of >>> =20 >>> >>>> other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D). >>>> =20 >>>> >>I'm fine with adding the comma. I don't think the IETF uses '<' and '>',= =20 >>so I'd prefer to leave them out. >> =20 >> >I'm OK with the comma; I agree that this is IETF, not Unicode, so we should= adopt IETF conventions. > =20 > >>>Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This >>>is just as valid for other editions of TUS. >>> =20 >>> >>Fine with me to leave that out. >> =20 >> >I also would leave out the page number. > =20 > >>>And does the reference have to >>>be placed so awkwardly? >>> =20 >>> > >I also wonder why have the reference to Unicode here--we wouldn't include i= t with every reference to an individual character, but at the same time ther= e's nothing about a reference here that indicates the same reference applies= in every other mention of specific characters. Rather, I think it would mak= e more sense to give a reference to Unicode at the end of the introduction: > > >Specific characters that are mentioned in this document are to be interpret= ed as characters in the Unicode coded character set ([Unicode]). Character r= eferences within ABNF will follow conventions for ABNF given in [RFC 5234]. = Character references outside ABNF will use a literal quotation and include t= he Unicode code position, as recommended in RFC 5137. For example, "-" U+002= D. > > =20 > Sure. >In other respects, I'm OK with the changes Martin suggested. > =20 > From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 11:26:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600A53A688D for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:26:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uhEc8K7X2QY1 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E15263A688B for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:26:39 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2FFAA2.3050800@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:25:38 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: John Cowan References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <20090608231300.GF20171@mercury.ccil.org> In-Reply-To: <20090608231300.GF20171@mercury.ccil.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:26:35 -0000 John Cowan wrote: >Alexey Melnikov scripsit: > > >>While I don't expect this issue [of excessive downloads] to be fully >>fixed at such a late stage, >> >"Late stage" is right. This registry has been available for download >since November 2005, the approval date of RFC 4646 (then known as >3066bis). The issue was raised then and resolved; why should it >be reraised now? It's true that the 4646bis registry will be much >larger than the 4646 one, but available bandwidth has increased too. >If IANA is concerned about abuse of their resources, let them set up >authorized mirrors, or impose controls on download, or do something >else administrative. > IANA might also go to IAB and ask for more money to handle LTRU registry. IAB might not be impressed by that. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Wed Jun 10 11:41:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DE53A6C4C for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:41:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.343 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.343 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.256, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RFg5r6xZteXX for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911923A6A7A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:34107 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MESjS-00086R-3b; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:41:08 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:40:59 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review Thread-Index: Acnp+v88KGPPDNY5T0aS4uNVs+hZYA== In-Reply-To: <4A2FF932.8020308@isode.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MESjS-00086R-3b. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1MESjS-00086R-3b 58d5cb2aaeda85b301bfb78b44e6411b Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:41:05 -0000 Den 2009-06-10 20.19, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > I was thinking that the registry showing templates > () > could be updated to show dates when each entry was approved. I think > this would enable incremental updates. Looking trough a few of the individual entries, they all seem to be dated, both at the beginning and end (updated/created). But I guess you mean the table in the index.html file (which is not a registry, just a table, the format of which is not specified in 4646bis). /kent k From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Wed Jun 10 11:45:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A65E3A683A for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.544 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.544 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.055, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t75YplEKpKLf for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E7943A681D for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:45:53 +0100 Message-ID: <4A2FFF23.1080904@isode.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:44:51 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Kent Karlsson References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:45:49 -0000 Kent Karlsson wrote: >Den 2009-06-10 20.19, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > > >>I was thinking that the registry showing templates >>() >>could be updated to show dates when each entry was approved. I think >>this would enable incremental updates. >> >> >Looking trough a few of the individual entries, they all seem to be dated, >both at the beginning and end (updated/created). But I guess you mean the >table in the index.html file > Yes, so that all dates are in 1 place. >(which is not a registry, just a table, the format of which is not specified in 4646bis). > > I know, but it might be a good idea if it is specified. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Wed Jun 10 11:49:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6B463A6824 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.371 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.371 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xmpxaOn3Pkdx for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 707963A688D for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33127 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MESrU-0007Ex-61; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:49:26 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:49:24 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Alexey Melnikov Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review Thread-Index: Acnp/Cw9EG0sllRafUGXq/71SIXkRA== In-Reply-To: <4A2FFF23.1080904@isode.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MESrU-0007Ex-61. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1MESrU-0007Ex-61 efa76afa9acc91c3a267fcc0976e627e Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:49:29 -0000 Den 2009-06-10 20.44, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : >> (which is not a registry, just a table, the format of which is not specified >> in 4646bis). >> >> > I know, but it might be a good idea if it is specified. Not at this stage of 4646bis development. /kent k From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 12:10:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C1793A69A1 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.554 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.554 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.045, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeQnkzuKOtY4 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mailc.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6FD63A68C3 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.18.53) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:41 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.18.53]) with mapi; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:41 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Kent Karlsson , Alexey Melnikov Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review Thread-Index: Acnp/Cw9EG0sllRafUGXq/71SIXkRAAAqGpg Message-ID: References: <4A2FFF23.1080904@isode.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:10:35 -0000 This is also my concern: it's late in the cycle and we need to drive to rel= ease. We shouldn't add new features unless there is really a gap that leave= s our target scenarios broken, and I don't see that in this case. It feels = like suggestions for providing registry diffs or displaying an index in a r= evised format should be possible candidates for a new charter. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ken= t Karlsson Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:49 AM To: Alexey Melnikov Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] AD issue #14 (DoS potential) Additional issues with 464= 6bis raised by an Apps Review Team review Den 2009-06-10 20.44, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : >> (which is not a registry, just a table, the format of which is not speci= fied >> in 4646bis). >> =20 >>=20 > I know, but it might be a good idea if it is specified. Not at this stage of 4646bis development. /kent k _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 10 12:36:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB94A3A6B22 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:36:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.542 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.542 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NmJzUyQev892 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0EB3A6A03 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:36:45 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=IRsa0iPBkQK9eH/Foad5Z3GmsLokfxNanWCpgG5fSKoYwTmKBfKcHEJZJdV8GNsp; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.37.136] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1METbP-0004Ye-Sv for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:36:52 -0400 Message-ID: <010501c9ea02$d51dbd60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A1FBC14.4030406@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <008301c9e34b$3bbd8be0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906031157h2ff19636va725ae95bf2af166@mail.gmail.com> <4A2F8EC4.6060700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:37:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968cbd40d0153431955c56a336f7da57a5b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.37.136 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:36:46 -0000 Hi - > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Peter Constable" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 3:45 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ticket #53 resolution? ... > [co-chair/shepherd] > > I count Mark, Addison, Peter, and me agreeing on the actual text, and > others agreeing with the fact that the issue warrants a fix. In > addition, as pointed out, quite some time has passed since the version > given here has been proposed, and no improvements or disagreement has > been since. I therefore declare that we have consensus on this change. > > Editors, please make sure you have this text as below. > > Randy, please close this issue with the text below as the resolution. ... Done. Randy From cewcathar@hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 15:18:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E623A6CA9 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:18:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSUA6L5saXDC for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc2-s28.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc2-s28.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.111.103]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E1183A6C45 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:18:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W5 ([65.55.111.72]) by blu0-omc2-s28.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:18:14 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_97cb16d5-396b-41eb-92b7-6ebb102942ef_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.63.66] From: CE Whitehead To: , Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:18:14 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4A2D85A1.1040409@isode.com> References: <4A2D8168.7030804@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDFBD@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2D8333.4070100@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCDFE7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2D85A1.1040409@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2009 22:18:14.0208 (UTC) FILETIME=[58D31400:01C9EA19] Cc: doug@ewellic.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:18:08 -0000 --_97cb16d5-396b-41eb-92b7-6ebb102942ef_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! =20 Yes=2C I saw that the draft sated that variants were 5*8 and also saw the p= aragraph below the table which is very clear: =20 "All subtags have a maximum length of eight characters and whitespace is no= t permitted in a language tag. There is a subtlety in the ABNF production '= variant': a variant starting with a digit has a minimum length of four char= acters=2C while those starting with a letter have a minimum length of five = characters." =20 All that is fine=2C but I expected something in the table like: =20 "(DIGIT 3*7 alphanum) =20 I did not think the table was that clear=2C but perhaps things are o.k. as = they are with the info about the variant just above . . . ??? whatever peo= ple like me who have learned to scan a lot in their old age think . . . =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com =20 (My apologies for taking so long to reply to your replies=3B have not been = able to get to a computer for several days=3B sorry that I just sent an ema= il out and took off . . . unfortunately I have to get to a library to pick = up email and reply =20 I still feel the table is confusing to people who just glance at the table = and then go on=2C but I will let that rest.) =20 > Date: Mon=2C 8 Jun 2009 22:41:53 +0100 > From: alexey.melnikov@isode.com > To: addison@amazon.com > CC: cewcathar@hotmail.com > Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2=2C "identification of subtag's type" (wa= s Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) >=20 > Phillips=2C Addison wrote: >=20 > >No. The ABNF has a subtlety in it :-).=20 > > > >Here is the production in question: > > > >variant =3D 5*8alphanum =3B registered variants > > / (DIGIT 3alphanum) > > > >This means that any subtag (digit or alpha starting) is permitted with l= ength 5-8 and digit-starting ones can have a length of four. > >=20 > > > Ah=2C I've missed that alphanum includes digits :-). > Never mind then. >=20 --_97cb16d5-396b-41eb-92b7-6ebb102942ef_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi!
 =3B
Yes=2C I saw that =3Bthe draft sated that variants were 5*8 and also sa= w the paragraph below the table which is very clear:
 =3B
"All subtags have a maximum length of eight characters and whitespace is no= t permitted in a language tag. There is a subtlety in the ABNF production '= variant': a variant starting with a digit has a minimum length of four char= acters=2C while those starting with a letter have a minimum length of five = characters."
 =3B
All that is fine=2C but I expected something in the table =3Blike:
 =3B
"(DIGIT 3*7 alphanum)
 =3B
I did not think the table was that clear=2C but perhaps things are o.k. as = they are with the info about the variant just =3Babove =3B. . . ???=  =3B whatever people like me who have learned to scan a lot in their ol= d age think . . .
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 =3B
(My apologies for taking =3Bso long to reply to your replies=3B have no= t been able to get to a computer for several days=3B sorry that I just sent= an email out and took off . . . unfortunately I have to get to a library t= o pick up email and reply
 =3B
I still =3Bfeel the table is confusing to people who just glance at the= table and then go on=2C but I will let that rest.)


 =3B
= >=3B Date: Mon=2C 8 Jun 2009 22:41:53 +0100
>=3B From: alexey.melnik= ov@isode.com
>=3B To: addison@amazon.com
>=3B CC: cewcathar@hotma= il.com
>=3B Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2=2C "identification of sub= tag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Te= am review)
>=3B
>=3B Phillips=2C Addison wrote:
>=3B
&g= t=3B >=3BNo. The ABNF has a subtlety in it :-).
>=3B >=3B
>= =3B >=3BHere is the production in question:
>=3B >=3B
>=3B &g= t=3Bvariant =3D 5*8alphanum =3B registered variants
>=3B >=3B / (DIG= IT 3alphanum)
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3BThis means that any subtag (= digit or alpha starting) is permitted with length 5-8 and digit-starting on= es can have a length of four.
>=3B >=3B
>=3B >=3B
>=3B = Ah=2C I've missed that alphanum includes digits :-).
>=3B Never mind t= hen.
>=3B
= --_97cb16d5-396b-41eb-92b7-6ebb102942ef_-- From cewcathar@hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 15:29:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B20B3A68AD for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QISOHYadTqWV for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s25.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s25.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.100]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF6A3A6880 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W22 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s25.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:29:24 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_46f4362f-3d6e-4a6e-9ce9-eadedf52f5c5_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.63.66] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:29:24 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Jun 2009 22:29:24.0756 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8809540:01C9EA1A] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #58: Add a summary of rules for recognizing subtagtype (Apps #11) (was RE: par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" ) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:29:19 -0000 --_46f4362f-3d6e-4a6e-9ce9-eadedf52f5c5_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I agree that the sentence in 2.2 is useful though repetitive (a little re= petition here is fine though)=3B and suggested a simple cross-reference whi= ch would follow the sentence: =20 "(see 2.1=2C above)" =20 or maybe: =20 "(see 2.1=2C above=2C for a table outlining the syntax of language tags and= subtags)" rather than a complete remaking of the table in 2.1. =20 I do not see the need to delete anything or add any tables. =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com=20 From: Mark Davis =20 Date: Mon=2C 8 Jun 2009 20:47:15 -0700 > I agree=3B I'd rather retain useful sentences... > Mark > On Mon=2C Jun 8=2C 2009 at 20:44=2C Phillips=2C Addison wrote: > > My first preference would be to make no change here=2C out of concern > that last-minute changes like this tend to introduce errors. +1 > > If we MUST make a change=2C rather that adding more text or a table=2C > my preference would be to simply delete "These make identification > of the subtag's > type possible=2C even if the content of the subtag itself is > unrecognized. " The rest > of the paragraph still says what needs to be said. > +1 Although=2C honestly=2C I think that sentence is useful. Addison --_46f4362f-3d6e-4a6e-9ce9-eadedf52f5c5_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi

 =3BI =3Bagree that =3Bthe s= entence in 2.2 is useful though =3B repetitive (a little repetition her= e is fine though)=3B and suggested a simple cross-reference =3Bwhich&nb= sp=3Bwould follow the sentence:

 =3B

"(see =3B2.1=2C above)"

 =3B
or maybe:
 =3B
"(see 2.1=2C above=2C for a table outlining the synta= x of language tags and subtags)"

rather than a complete remaking of the t= able in 2.1.

 =3B
I do not see the need to delete anything or add any t= ables.
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
= From: Mark Davis <=3Bmark at macchi= ato.com>=3B
 =3B
Date: Mon=2C 8 Jun 2009 20:47:15 -0700
>=3B I agree=3B I'd rather = retain useful sentences...

>=3B Mark
>=3B On Mon=2C Jun 8=2C 2009 at 20:44=2C Phi= llips=2C Addison <=3Baddison at amazon.com>=3B wrote:
>=3B
>=3B My first preference would be to make n= o change here=2C out of concern
>=3B that last-minute changes like thi= s tend to introduce errors.

+1

>=3B
>=3B If we MUST make a change=2C rather= that adding more text or a table=2C
>=3B my preference would be to si= mply delete "These make identification
>=3B of the subtag's
>=3B = type possible=2C even if the content of the subtag itself is
>=3B unre= cognized. "  =3BThe rest
>=3B of the paragraph still says what nee= ds to be said.
>=3B

+1

 =3BAlthough= =2C honestly=2C I think that sentence is useful.

Addison

= --_46f4362f-3d6e-4a6e-9ce9-eadedf52f5c5_-- From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Wed Jun 10 16:21:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B59B73A6C89 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:21:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.696 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.696 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.506, BAYES_00=-2.599, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Zk64OJOVpYWt for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99B2F3A6A36 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33606 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MEX6y-0000vG-7Z; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:21:42 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:21:34 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: CE Whitehead , , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) Thread-Index: AcnqIjGt6MGX/mcEeEuxVb1CL6yT7g== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3327528100_2650396" X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MEX6y-0000vG-7Z. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MEX6y-0000vG-7Z 6e8d566c5e7b82b378bf72dc433d6ce4 Cc: doug@ewellic.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 23:21:48 -0000 > Detta meddelande Šr i MIME-format. PŒ grund av att din e-postlŠsare inte fšrstŒr detta format, kommer hela eller delar av detta meddelande inte att vara lŠsbart. --B_3327528100_2650396 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Den 2009-06-11 00.18, skrev "CE Whitehead" : Re. ABNF for variant subtags: >> > All that is fine, but I expected something in the table like: >> > >> > "(DIGIT 3*7 alphanum) The (DIGIT 3alphanum) part of your suggestion is (obviously) covered by the (DIGIT 3alphanum) part in ABNF. The (DIGIT 4*7alphanum) part of your suggestion is covered by 5*8alphanum in the ABNF. The 5*8alphanum also covers variants that start with a letter. Replacing (DIGIT 3alphanum) by (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) would just introduce needless ambiguity in the grammar. /kent k --B_3327528100_2650396 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type"= (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review)</= TITLE> </HEAD> <BODY> <FONT FACE=3D"Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt= '><BR> Den 2009-06-11 00.18, skrev "CE Whitehead" <<a href=3D"cewcathar= @hotmail.com">cewcathar@hotmail.com</a>>:<BR> <BR> <FONT COLOR=3D"#008080">Re. ABNF for variant subtags:<BR> </FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvetica, Arial">= <SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><BR> </SPAN></FONT></FONT><BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helvet= ica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'>> All that is fine, but I expect= ed something in the table like:<BR> >  <BR> > "(DIGIT 3*7 alphanum)<BR> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT SIZE=3D"2"><FONT FACE=3D"Verdana, Helve= tica, Arial"><SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:10pt'><BR> <FONT COLOR=3D"#008080">The (DIGIT 3alphanum) part of your suggestion is (obv= iously) covered by<BR> the (DIGIT 3alphanum) part in ABNF. The (DIGIT 4*7alphanum) part of your<BR= > suggestion is covered by   5*8alphanum   in the ABNF. T= he 5*8alphanum also<BR> covers variants that start with a letter. Replacing </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#00= 7F7F">(DIGIT 3alphanum) by<BR> (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) would just introduce needless ambiguity in the grammar.= <BR> </FONT><FONT COLOR=3D"#008080"><BR>     /kent k<BR> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </BODY> </HTML> --B_3327528100_2650396-- From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 18:20:36 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D3033A6906 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:20:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.227 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Twnucv94FCzC for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A9063A67DD for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5B1KUtn030408 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3071_0d738354_5626_11de_8935_001d096c5782; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:20:30 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:33234) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S1148A91> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:18:42 +0900 Message-ID: <4A305BCB.7080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:20:11 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92865@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:20:36 -0000 Hello Alex, [hats off, on a closed issue] On 2009/06/11 3:10, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Mark Davis wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 09:20, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com >> <mailto:petercon@microsoft.com>> wrote: >> >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org> On >> Behalf Of "Martin J. Dürst" >> > Okay. Here is proposed text for insertion just before the currently >> > last paragraph in section 6: >> > >> > >>>> >> > Although the Language Subtag Registry and the Language Tag >> Extensions >> > Registry are available over the Internet, applications SHOULD NOT >> > mechanically depend on it being always accessible, to prevent >> > denial-of-service attacks. >> > >>>> >> >> That text looks OK to me. >> > Yes. Great. >> > I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as >> follows: >> > >> > >>>> >> > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for >> frequent >> > or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. >> > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, >> > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a >> particular >> > registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents >> changes >> > only occasionally. Changes are announced to >> > ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org >> <mailto:ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. >> > I hope you are not suggesting that every implementation that wants to > automatically download the registry should subscribe to this mailing > list ;-). No. Every implementer, yes. But not all the copies of an implementation out in the field. And there are three reasons why it wouldn't be that bad even if implementers tried to do that: First, while it's rather easy during an install process to fetch some data, e.g. over HTTP (assuming you're online), setting up an implementation to receive emails would require quite a bit of effort. Essentially, you have to create a new, dedicated email address on a foreign system. Second, even if the number of subscribers grew quite a bit, sending out the emails would be way less bandwidth for IANA than being polled constantly (e.g. whenever an application processed a language tag). Third, IANA is the active side. If need be, they could do anything they wanted, from temporarily stopping to accept new subscriptions to pressuring the creators of certain products (much more effective if they are the active party), and so on. The above arguments are not given to suggest email notifications to deployed implementations are a good idea, quite to the contrary. If an implementer really decided they need something like this, they should subscribe to IANA once, and create their own notification system, which could also include creating and distributing diffs for the updates rather than resending or refetching the whole registry. As it would be their bandwidth, it would also be their motivation to optimize. >> >Changes, or the absence thereof, >> >> > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record >> at the >> > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for >> > downloading, without having to download the full registry. >> > >>>> >> > This looks good in general. I would have expanded on how to do this in > HTTP, considering that the registry is exported over HTTP, but the > current text is good enough. Thanks. I seem to remember discussing this a couple years or so ago. I think there were some good arguments against it, as IANA may want to use other protocols in the future. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 18:46:51 2009 Return-Path: <doug@ewellic.org> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B103A68EE for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:46:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.357, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wxJuDwxbCUFm for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.88]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BD023A68AF for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10120 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2009 01:46:57 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-08.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.88) with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2009 01:46:56 -0000 Message-ID: <F31F7C32C5E44ED5AA2440D7ED83AFF8@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> References: <C6560C9E.DA42%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:46:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:46:51 -0000 Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review)(information only; no proposals in this post) Kent Karlsson wrote: > ... Replacing (DIGIT 3alphanum) by (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) would just > introduce needless ambiguity in the grammar. s/ambiguity/redundancy/ That said, Kent's response was spot-on. Everything that needs to be covered in the existing production is covered. If it were really desirable to remove the subtlety/cleverness in the ABNF, and **I DO NOT PROPOSE CHANGING ANYTHING HERE**, the solution CE was thinking of might have looked like this: variant = ALPHA 4*7alphanum ; registered variants / (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 18:53:18 2009 Return-Path: <doug@ewellic.org> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA433A6B4E for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.256 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.256 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.342, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eNw-EbxQWgkr for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 625263A69B2 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15797 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2009 01:53:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.83) with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2009 01:53:23 -0000 Message-ID: <7052FA174FAA4201A76FC498F59F0980@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> References: <mailman.9042.1244628136.4936.ltru@ietf.org> <B14B26768DE5410CB934AE2E079FFE1C@DGBP7M81> <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:53:22 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:53:18 -0000 Debbie Garside wrote: > One final thought, to cover all eventualities we could add the words > “or its successor†after “ISO 639 JACâ€. When I read this, I thought of how much effort and text we have already devoted to trying to cover all eventualities. Even if there are concrete plans to overhaul the ISO 639 administration, I think it would take a creative mind to read "ISO 639 JAC" in the RFC as not applying to a successor body. But if the rest of Debbie's proposal (or someone else's) is approved, these three additional words probably wouldn't hurt. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 18:55:23 2009 Return-Path: <doug@ewellic.org> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD19B3A6ACE for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:55:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.27 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.27 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.328, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zThrRSchRjC5 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E11C3A69B2 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16912 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2009 01:55:30 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.87) with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2009 01:55:29 -0000 Message-ID: <9FAF6106A3EC4CEAA055128ED01685F0@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> References: <mailman.9042.1244628136.4936.ltru@ietf.org><B14B26768DE5410CB934AE2E079FFE1C@DGBP7M81><1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew><30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:55:27 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:55:23 -0000 Phillips, Addison wrote: > • The Language Subtag Reviewer MUST closely scrutinize any proposals > rejected by ISO 639/ MA-JAC. > > I laughed at this one. The LSR must closely scrutinize any proposal, > one would hope. Not only that, it's a redundancy. "Scrutinize" means to look at something closely. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 19:09:31 2009 Return-Path: <doug@ewellic.org> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 084A73A6999 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:09:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.283 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.283 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.315, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TwNUSBzbofK7 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.84]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 056BB3A6953 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11573 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2009 02:09:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.84) with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2009 02:09:36 -0000 Message-ID: <A5CBDDDDB013489B8DB27992674C9C2E@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> References: <mailman.9166.1244652858.4936.ltru@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:09:34 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata (Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:09:31 -0000 Mark Davis <mark at macchiato dot com> suggested: > The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to > be stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the > negative impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA > Registry Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD > accept only modifications for errata corrections or required > clarifications of intent, and SHOULD NOT accept translations or > transcriptions of entries in the registry. If it is not already clear, it should be made clear that this last bit about translations or transcriptions applies only to modifications originating from individual requests, not from the core standards bodies, which have been known to provide translations in their entries. For example, ISO 639-3 has given us: Catalan Sign Language Lengua de señas catalana Llengua de Signes Catalana and as a matter of policy, all three of these names have been included in draft-4645bis. If this is already clear, then of course nothing needs to be done. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 19:35:02 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 902E83A6999 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:35:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YyBESl9PfyvZ for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF333A6C51 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5B2Yq2J020416 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:34:52 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 712c_7118afc4_5630_11de_a571_001d096c566a; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:34:52 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:44974) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S1148B45> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:33:04 +0900 Message-ID: <4A306D39.90309@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:34:33 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> References: <mailman.9042.1244628136.4936.ltru@ietf.org> <B14B26768DE5410CB934AE2E079FFE1C@DGBP7M81> <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92E76@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <1d1501c9e9d5$e9b30820$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED5@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <30b660a20906100954u5af1ce2fw2fb7ac6aeef0a291@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906100954u5af1ce2fw2fb7ac6aeef0a291@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org>, Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> Subject: [Ltru] [OT] Re: Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:35:02 -0000 On 2009/06/11 1:54, Mark Davis wrote: > Oh, ask Mike Ksar about trying to get a response from the IETF charset > registry! I think that was years and years ago. Also, as far as I remember, he didn't understand very well how the process worked. Anyway, I think it's irrelevant for the current discussion. Regards, Martin. [now, but not then, an expert reviewer for charsets] > But as I said, because the likelyhood of the text being invoked is so low, > I'm ok with the current language, as imprecise as it is. > > Mark > > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 08:25, Peter Constable<petercon@microsoft.com>wrote: > >> From: Debbie Garside [mailto:debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk] >> >>>> What problem is being fixed here? (I don't know that we have an existing >> problem.) >> >>> It is a matter of clarity. If we do not state that a requester MUST >> first >>> apply to the ISO 639 JAC there will always be the awkward cuss who comes >>> along and causes a huge rumpus - we have had our fair share of these and >>> sometimes it is better to dot the i's and cross the t's. It could save >> us a >>> lot of time in the future. >> You say, "we have had our fair share of these", but in over ten years >> participating in IETF-languages I don't recall any serious problems having >> arisen of the type we're discussing. >> >> >> >> Peter >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 19:48:06 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B68E13A6859 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:48:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.016, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYvkT1rfiioK for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49FED3A6822 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 19:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5B2mBmB029879 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:48:11 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 348e_4d5dbb86_5632_11de_8b2e_001d096c5782; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:48:11 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:57654) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S1148B5E> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:46:23 +0900 Message-ID: <4A307058.3030100@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:47:52 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> References: <mailman.9042.1244628136.4936.ltru@ietf.org> <B14B26768DE5410CB934AE2E079FFE1C@DGBP7M81> <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>, 'Doug Ewell' <doug@ewellic.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:48:06 -0000 [hats on] On 2009/06/11 0:21, Phillips, Addison wrote: > I oppose making these changes, not because Debbie’s text wouldn’t make things clearer, but rather because the point of this paragraph was precisely that it did NOT forbid attempts to register primary language subtags. Each such request would be judged on its own merits. But the WG wanted to give clear-enough guidance that it was unlikely that such a registration attempt would succeed. It also seems to be my recollection that we didn't want to forbid attempts to register primary language subtags, but wanted to make clear that the chances of a direct registration would be extremely small. The way I judge the current consensus is that we have a rough consensus against any changes on this issue, despite some recent textual proposals. I will close this issue in this way tomorrow unless we get additional input and evidence. I instruct the editors to produce the next version of the draft without changes unless they hear from me otherwise. Please note that 1) This issue did not come from Alex (our AD), but from a third-party reviewer. Alex, as far as I understand, wants to make sure that we discuss it and either reconfirm what we have done or adopt some changes along the lines proposed. 2) Introducing new features (such as a timespan,...) shouldn't be done at this stage unless absolutely necessary. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 10 20:21:42 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DB13A6973 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:21:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.525 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.525 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.285, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MTzQRqIW8zcl for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF243A684C for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5B3LV28003250 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:21:31 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 66fe_f5bb8958_5636_11de_9316_001d096c5782; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:21:31 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:59098) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S1148BCD> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:19:43 +0900 Message-ID: <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:21:12 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:21:42 -0000 [hats on] I declare consensus on the fact that we do not want to remove the MAY, but are considering the clarification of the text. Please help converging on a version of the text that is clearer than the original, but doesn't change its meaning. [Randy, this doesn't close this issue yet] Please say whether you are okay with the new text proposed at the end of this mail. On 2009/06/11 1:35, Mark Davis wrote: > Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the mark, > since it is still talking about "the community", which is not defined and > has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is doing > what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for > comparison. > > Mark: > > The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be > stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative > impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry > Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only > modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of intent, > and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry. This text introduces two new shoulds where we only had a MAY, unrelated to the comment. This is clearly inappropriate at this stage of the process. > OLD >>> While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable >>> and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts >>> to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry >>> itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >>> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions >>> in Section 3.4. > Peter: > > The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections > or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community, > but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in > Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since > modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be > stable. I agree with Mark that 'community' isn't well defined. But it was in our original text, so we can leave it in. However, Peter's text doubles it. I propose removing the first one. I also re-added the quotes to 'Description', split a sentence, removed " or clarifications of intent" (well intended, but not in the original text), and changed the 'might' to 'are' ("errata might be acceptable" sounds as if some errata are not acceptable, which I would have difficulties understanding). The new text I'm proposing is: NEW text: The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.4. Note that, since modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable. Please say whether you are okay with the new text or want some additional changes. If you propose additional changes, please include your full new text after motivating the changes. If you propose changes, please try to stay as close as possible to the text and intent of the original text. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 10 21:16:55 2009 Return-Path: <doug@ewellic.org> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B3D03A68C4 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:16:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.988 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.988 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.002, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lvXFKSoNM8he for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout08.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout08-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.119]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D3C943A6858 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2934 invoked from network); 11 Jun 2009 04:17:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpout08.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.119) with ESMTP; 11 Jun 2009 04:17:01 -0000 Message-ID: <BDD0BE736856480589AD7CC923D4EF1D@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:16:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:16:55 -0000 I am OK with Martin's proposed text. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 10 21:54:54 2009 Return-Path: <petercon@microsoft.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E603A6D40 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; 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Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:54:55 -0700 From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:54:55 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqS34aOrCNfSX4Q7q93REzWgtWWgABUJpQ Message-ID: <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D6112D@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <BDD0BE736856480589AD7CC923D4EF1D@DGBP7M81> In-Reply-To: <BDD0BE736856480589AD7CC923D4EF1D@DGBP7M81> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:54:54 -0000 KzENCg0KLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IGx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRm Lm9yZyBbbWFpbHRvOmx0cnUtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIERvdWcgRXdl bGwNClNlbnQ6IFdlZG5lc2RheSwgSnVuZSAxMCwgMjAwOSA5OjE3IFBNDQpUbzogTFRSVSBXb3Jr aW5nIEdyb3VwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIElzc3VlICM2MTogUHJvYmxlbSB3aXRoIE1B WSBpbiAzLjUgb24gRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZXJyYXRhKEFwcHMgIzEzKQ0KDQpJIGFtIE9LIHdpdGgg TWFydGluJ3MgcHJvcG9zZWQgdGV4dC4NCg0KLS0NCkRvdWcgRXdlbGwgICogIFRob3JudG9uLCBD b2xvcmFkbywgVVNBICAqICBSRkMgNDY0NSAgKiAgVVROICMxNA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5ld2VsbGlj Lm9yZw0KaHR0cDovL3d3dzEuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC5jaGFydGVycy9sdHJ1LWNoYXJ0ZXIuaHRt bA0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHZlc3RyYW5kLm5vL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaWV0Zi1sYW5ndWFn ZXMgIMuGDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f DQpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 11 00:18:07 2009 Return-Path: <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5143A6A41 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; 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Received: from [64.105.136.221] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>) id 1MEeY9-0008ML-DE for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:18:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> To: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 00:16:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968047c1c017d3d566a1ad3d8891bf1fba5350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 64.105.136.221 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:18:07 -0000 Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Martin J. Dürst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> > To: "Mark Davis" <mark@macchiato.com> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org> > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) ... > NEW text: > The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata > corrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. > However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries > in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or > rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the > provisions in Section 3.4. Note that, since modifications are possible, > the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable. ... I do not see how this text is an improvement over the existing text. Furthermore, since the reviewer's comment was only about the use of "MAY", and since there have been no claims that any real or potential operational or implementation problems would result from the existing text, I see no reason to make a change here. Randy From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Thu Jun 11 01:46:01 2009 Return-Path: <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F05DE3A6C25 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:46:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.14 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.14 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.141, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hfGT6tfFiavP for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3C9E3A6989 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33488 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>) id 1MEfue-000672-8G; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:35 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:29 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Message-ID: <C65690C9.DA85%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqcPjoQTNrFwLbL0CEyob+/1ntJA== In-Reply-To: <BDD0BE736856480589AD7CC923D4EF1D@DGBP7M81> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MEfue-000672-8G. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MEfue-000672-8G 8bddb1bc5df835a43c50e943802a5df4 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:46:02 -0000 +1 Den 2009-06-11 06.16, skrev "Doug Ewell" <doug@ewellic.org>: > I am OK with Martin's proposed text. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, > USA * RFC 4645 * UTN > #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.htm > l http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages > =96 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing > list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 11 02:53:50 2009 Return-Path: <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2083A6D54 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:53:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.395 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.395 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.096, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BD54FUZWwFym for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A274E3A6D61 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 02:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <SjDUJgAh5ECF@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:53:47 +0100 Message-ID: <4A30D407.4050703@isode.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:53:11 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92865@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> <4A305BCB.7080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A305BCB.7080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 09:53:50 -0000 Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Hello Alex, > > [hats off, on a closed issue] > > On 2009/06/11 3:10, Alexey Melnikov wrote: [...] >>> > I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as >>> follows: >>> > >>> > >>>> >>> > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for >>> frequent >>> > or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. >>> > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, >>> > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a >>> particular >>> > registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents >>> changes >>> > only occasionally. Changes are announced to >>> > ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org >>> <mailto:ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. >> >> I hope you are not suggesting that every implementation that wants to >> automatically download the registry should subscribe to this mailing >> list ;-). > > No. Every implementer, yes. But not all the copies of an=20 > implementation out in the field. And there are three reasons why it=20 > wouldn't be that bad even if implementers tried to do that: > > First, while it's rather easy during an install process to fetch some=20 > data, e.g. over HTTP (assuming you're online), setting up an=20 > implementation to receive emails would require quite a bit of effort.=20 > Essentially, you have to create a new, dedicated email address on a=20 > foreign system. > > Second, even if the number of subscribers grew quite a bit, sending=20 > out the emails would be way less bandwidth for IANA than being polled=20 > constantly (e.g. whenever an application processed a language tag). > > Third, IANA is the active side. If need be, they could do anything=20 > they wanted, from temporarily stopping to accept new subscriptions to=20 > pressuring the creators of certain products (much more effective if=20 > they are the active party), and so on. Right. > The above arguments are not given to suggest email notifications to=20 > deployed implementations are a good idea, quite to the contrary. If an=20 > implementer really decided they need something like this, they should=20 > subscribe to IANA once, and create their own notification system,=20 > which could also include creating and distributing diffs for the=20 > updates rather than resending or refetching the whole registry. As it=20 > would be their bandwidth, it would also be their motivation to optimize. I think a reworded version of your last 2 sentences should be in the=20 document. This is indeed the message I would like to convey to a reader=20 of the document. >>> >Changes, or the absence thereof, >>> >>> > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record >>> at the >>> > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for >>> > downloading, without having to download the full registry. >>> > >>>> >> >> This looks good in general. I would have expanded on how to do this in >> HTTP, considering that the registry is exported over HTTP, but the >> current text is good enough. > > Thanks. > > I seem to remember discussing this a couple years or so ago. I think=20 > there were some good arguments against it, as IANA may want to use=20 > other protocols in the future. 4646bis is targeted for BCP and Best Current Practices change over time. [Speaking as a contributor:] I would much prefer if the document=20 encourages good protocol practices. It is not reasonable to assume that=20 every reader would know the best way of doing the task, there are=20 multiple examples of this being not true for other protocols. The advice can start with "At the time of publication of this document=20 IANA is exporting the Language Tag registry over HTTP, ..." From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Jun 11 04:36:58 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A0C33A681C for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:36:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.276, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id enxuVNMDhrsH for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04CE3A6DF4 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5BBalDs004349 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:36:48 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3620_25ea5e3e_567c_11de_aaec_001d096c566a; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:36:47 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:42057) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S1149605> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:34:59 +0900 Message-ID: <4A30EC3B.3080806@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:36:27 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:36:58 -0000 [co-chair hat on] Hello Randy, (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, and you probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already declared that we have consensus that we should improve the wording (without changing the substance), because we think that the comment was based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, so that we can reopen discussion on that part. If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring consensus on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the remaining parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and subissues) currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly as possible. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/11 16:16, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > >> From: "Martin J. Dürst"<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> >> To: "Mark Davis"<mark@macchiato.com> >> Cc: "LTRU Working Group"<ltru@ietf.org> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:21 PM >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) > ... >> NEW text: >> The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata >> corrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. >> However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries >> in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or >> rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the >> provisions in Section 3.4. Note that, since modifications are possible, >> the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable. > ... > > I do not see how this text is an improvement over the existing text. > Furthermore, since the reviewer's comment was only about the use > of "MAY", and since there have been no claims that any real or > potential operational or implementation problems would result from > the existing text, I see no reason to make a change here. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Jun 11 04:58:40 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA8953A69EF for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pUI8Yxaiz6dH for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63D73A6C47 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 04:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5BBwjHW009962 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:58:45 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3bc5_3760c7f4_567f_11de_85ad_001d096c5782; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:58:45 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:37175) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S11496B2> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:56:57 +0900 Message-ID: <4A30F161.9050606@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:58:25 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92865@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> <4A305BCB.7080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A30D407.4050703@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A30D407.4050703@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:58:41 -0000 Hello Alex, On 2009/06/11 18:53, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Martin J. Dürst wrote: > >> Hello Alex, >> >> [hats off, on a closed issue] or so I thought :-( >> On 2009/06/11 3:10, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > [...] > >>>> > I therefore suggest to continue the text I proposed above as >>>> follows: >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for >>>> frequent >>>> > or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. >>>> > Most applications do not need registry data at all. For the others, >>>> > being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a >>>> particular >>>> > registry date will be sufficient. Also, the registry contents >>>> changes >>>> > only occasionally. Changes are announced to >>>> > ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org >>>> <mailto:ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. >>> >>> I hope you are not suggesting that every implementation that wants to >>> automatically download the registry should subscribe to this mailing >>> list ;-). >> >> No. Every implementer, yes. But not all the copies of an >> implementation out in the field. And there are three reasons why it >> wouldn't be that bad even if implementers tried to do that: >> >> First, while it's rather easy during an install process to fetch some >> data, e.g. over HTTP (assuming you're online), setting up an >> implementation to receive emails would require quite a bit of effort. >> Essentially, you have to create a new, dedicated email address on a >> foreign system. >> >> Second, even if the number of subscribers grew quite a bit, sending >> out the emails would be way less bandwidth for IANA than being polled >> constantly (e.g. whenever an application processed a language tag). >> >> Third, IANA is the active side. If need be, they could do anything >> they wanted, from temporarily stopping to accept new subscriptions to >> pressuring the creators of certain products (much more effective if >> they are the active party), and so on. > > Right. > >> The above arguments are not given to suggest email notifications to >> deployed implementations are a good idea, quite to the contrary. If an >> implementer really decided they need something like this, they should >> subscribe to IANA once, and create their own notification system, >> which could also include creating and distributing diffs for the >> updates rather than resending or refetching the whole registry. As it >> would be their bandwidth, it would also be their motivation to optimize. > > I think a reworded version of your last 2 sentences should be in the > document. This is indeed the message I would like to convey to a reader > of the document. By 'last two sentences', I assume you mean: Also, the registry contents changes only occasionally. Changes are announced to ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org <mailto:ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. Okay, here's some textual proposal: This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, not directly from IANA. >>>> >Changes, or the absence thereof, >>>> >>>> > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record >>>> at the >>>> > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for >>>> > downloading, without having to download the full registry. >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> This looks good in general. I would have expanded on how to do this in >>> HTTP, considering that the registry is exported over HTTP, but the >>> current text is good enough. >> >> Thanks. >> >> I seem to remember discussing this a couple years or so ago. I think >> there were some good arguments against it, as IANA may want to use >> other protocols in the future. > > 4646bis is targeted for BCP and Best Current Practices change over time. > > [Speaking as a contributor:] I would much prefer if the document > encourages good protocol practices. It is not reasonable to assume that > every reader would know the best way of doing the task, there are > multiple examples of this being not true for other protocols. > The advice can start with "At the time of publication of this document > IANA is exporting the Language Tag registry over HTTP, ..." Okay, here is a textual proposal: At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. This would mean that we have to add RFC 2616 to the references. [hats on] Because time is running out, I propose to publish -23 without the above additional texts. I leave it to Alex to tell us exactly what to do or otherwise to decide how to handle this to be able to move the draft forward in a timely manner. [hats off] I'm somewhat concerned that we start to put more and more stuff into the security section, where it might not necessarily belong, and that we are on a slippery slope to add more and more stuff. While I think that these operational issues are important, our document is a BCP on Language Tags, not on how to (or not to) download the Language Subtag Registry. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Jun 11 05:02:56 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CBA3A6C47 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.241 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.241 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.031, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9nSGSTbB23RB for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:02:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48823A6C2B for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5BC31bC024590 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:03:01 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6251_d00a68c0_567f_11de_9ab1_001d096c566a; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:03:01 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:37176) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S11496D3> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:01:13 +0900 Message-ID: <4A30F261.2030705@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:02:41 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> References: <C655611E.D9BB%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92EC6@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92EE3@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4A2FF9BE.6050607@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A2FF9BE.6050607@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:02:57 -0000 On 2009/06/11 3:21, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Peter Constable wrote: > >> Addendum: It seems to me that our reference to Unicode should be >> normative rather than informative. >> >> > This is sensible. I intended this to be part of my original textual proposal. Apparently this got lost somewhere (probably between my head and my keyboard :-). Regards, Martin. >> Peter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >> Of Peter Constable >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 8:17 AM >> To: "Martin J. Dürst"; Kent Karlsson >> Cc: Alexey Melnikov; LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text >> >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf >> Of "Martin J. Dürst" >> >> >>>> Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting >>>> character sequences. So: >>>> >>>> lines containing only the sequence "%%" (<U+0025, U+0025>). >>>> ... >>>> The sequence '..' (<U+002E, U+002E>) in a field-body denotes a range of >>>> >>>>> other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D). >>>>> >>> I'm fine with adding the comma. I don't think the IETF uses '<' and >>> '>', so I'd prefer to leave them out. >>> >> I'm OK with the comma; I agree that this is IETF, not Unicode, so we >> should adopt IETF conventions. >> >> >>>> Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This >>>> is just as valid for other editions of TUS. >>>> >>> Fine with me to leave that out. >>> >> I also would leave out the page number. >> >> >>>> And does the reference have to >>>> be placed so awkwardly? >>>> >> >> I also wonder why have the reference to Unicode here--we wouldn't >> include it with every reference to an individual character, but at the >> same time there's nothing about a reference here that indicates the >> same reference applies in every other mention of specific characters. >> Rather, I think it would make more sense to give a reference to >> Unicode at the end of the introduction: >> >> <suggested text> >> Specific characters that are mentioned in this document are to be >> interpreted as characters in the Unicode coded character set >> ([Unicode]). Character references within ABNF will follow conventions >> for ABNF given in [RFC 5234]. Character references outside ABNF will >> use a literal quotation and include the Unicode code position, as >> recommended in RFC 5137. For example, "-" U+002D. >> </suggested text> >> >> > Sure. > >> In other respects, I'm OK with the changes Martin suggested. >> >> > > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 11 05:04:26 2009 Return-Path: <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 810833A6B32 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:04:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.071, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bw4xipNauxYE for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:04:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B82713A6DA2 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <SjDyywAh5CkV@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:04:27 +0100 Message-ID: <4A30F2AC.8080203@isode.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:03:56 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92865@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> <4A305BCB.7080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A30D407.4050703@isode.com> <4A30F161.9050606@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A30F161.9050606@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:04:26 -0000 Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Hello Alex, > > On 2009/06/11 18:53, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: >> >>> Hello Alex, >>> >>> [hats off, on a closed issue] >> > or so I thought :-( > >>> On 2009/06/11 3:10, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> [...] >>> The above arguments are not given to suggest email notifications to >>> deployed implementations are a good idea, quite to the contrary. If an >>> implementer really decided they need something like this, they should >>> subscribe to IANA once, and create their own notification system, >>> which could also include creating and distributing diffs for the >>> updates rather than resending or refetching the whole registry. As it >>> would be their bandwidth, it would also be their motivation to=20 >>> optimize. >> >> I think a reworded version of your last 2 sentences should be in the >> document. This is indeed the message I would like to convey to a reader >> of the document. > > By 'last two sentences', I assume you mean: > > Also, the registry contents changes only occasionally. Changes are=20 > announced to ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org=20 > <mailto:ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. No, I meant: If an implementer really decided they need something like this, they should subscribe to IANA once, and create their own notification system, which could also include creating and distributing diffs for the updates rather than resending or refetching the whole registry. As it would be their bandwidth, it would also be their motivation to optimize. > Okay, here's some textual proposal: > > This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and=20 > individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software=20 > updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic=20 > software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language=20 > Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised=20 > to distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their=20 > own infrastructure, not directly from IANA. I like this and I think it covers what I was referring to. >>>>> >Changes, or the absence thereof, >>>>> >>>>> > can also easily be detected by looking at the File-Date record >>>>> at the >>>>> > start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used=20 >>>>> for >>>>> > downloading, without having to download the full registry. >>>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> This looks good in general. I would have expanded on how to do this in >>>> HTTP, considering that the registry is exported over HTTP, but the >>>> current text is good enough. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> I seem to remember discussing this a couple years or so ago. I think >>> there were some good arguments against it, as IANA may want to use >>> other protocols in the future. >> >> 4646bis is targeted for BCP and Best Current Practices change over time. >> >> [Speaking as a contributor:] I would much prefer if the document >> encourages good protocol practices. It is not reasonable to assume that >> every reader would know the best way of doing the task, there are >> multiple examples of this being not true for other protocols. >> The advice can start with "At the time of publication of this document >> IANA is exporting the Language Tag registry over HTTP, ..." > > Okay, here is a textual proposal: > > At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the=20 > Language Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to=20 > update a local copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is=20 > to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. > > This would mean that we have to add RFC 2616 to the references. This looks fine to me. > [hats on] > Because time is running out, I propose to publish -23 without the=20 > above additional texts. I leave it to Alex to tell us exactly what to=20 > do or otherwise to decide how to handle this to be able to move the=20 > draft forward in a timely manner. I can always add an RFC Editor note. So yes, publishing 23 without this=20 text is fine. > [hats off] > I'm somewhat concerned that we start to put more and more stuff into=20 > the security section, where it might not necessarily belong, and that=20 > we are on a slippery slope to add more and more stuff. While I think=20 > that these operational issues are important, our document is a BCP on=20 > Language Tags, not on how to (or not to) download the Language Subtag=20 > Registry. Hats off: A separate section might be better. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Jun 11 05:18:57 2009 Return-Path: <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4C13A6B68 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:18:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.24 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.24 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R9MBIhNY8wYm for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37A673A67AC for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5BCIpFb024814 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:18:51 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 6014_06238746_5682_11de_ab63_001d096c5782; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:18:51 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:59142) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id <S114972D> for <ltru@ietf.org> from <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:17:03 +0900 Message-ID: <4A30F617.4080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:18:31 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> References: <C655611E.D9BB%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92EC6@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92EC6@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:18:57 -0000 [hats on] (mostly for Addison, so that he knows what to do) On 2009/06/11 0:17, Peter Constable wrote: > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of "Martin J. Dürst" > >>> Nit-pick: Unicode (and ISO/IEC 10646) uses tuple syntax when denoting >>> character sequences. So: >>> >>> lines containing only the sequence "%%" (<U+0025, U+0025>). >>> ... >>> The sequence '..' (<U+002E, U+002E>) in a field-body denotes a range of >>> >>>> other subtags in a tag by a hyphen ("-", [Unicode, p. 1077] U+002D). > >> I'm fine with adding the comma. I don't think the IETF uses '<' and'>', >> so I'd prefer to leave them out. > > I'm OK with the comma; I agree that this is IETF, not Unicode, so we should adopt IETF conventions. There are no IETF conventions. But I also haven't found the <...> thingy in Appendix A, Notational Conventions, of Unicode 5. So let's leave it out. >>> Still nit-picking: I'm not too keen on including a page number. This >>> is just as valid for other editions of TUS. > >> Fine with me to leave that out. > > I also would leave out the page number. Okay, let's leave it out. >>> And does the reference have to >>> be placed so awkwardly? > > I also wonder why have the reference to Unicode here--we wouldn't include it with every reference to an individual character, but at the same time there's nothing about a reference here that indicates the same reference applies in every other mention of specific characters. Rather, I think it would make more sense to give a reference to Unicode at the end of the introduction: > > <suggested text> > Specific characters that are mentioned in this document are to be interpreted as characters in the Unicode coded character set ([Unicode]). Character references within ABNF will follow conventions for ABNF given in [RFC 5234]. Character references outside ABNF will use a literal quotation and include the Unicode code position, as recommended in RFC 5137. For example, "-" U+002D. > </suggested text> If we haven't fixed that until now, I assume we can live with it. Also, as it turns out, RFC 5137 does not contain the U+ notation, so it would be wrong to cite that. I have tried to find out exactly what the original request was, but the only thing I can find is that we should replace %x.... with U+.... Regards, Martin. > In other respects, I'm OK with the changes Martin suggested. > > > Peter > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 11 05:41:55 2009 Return-Path: <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D589D3A6E07 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:41:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id K3Yh78riPAfH for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DDA3A696D for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.178] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id <SjD7mAAh5Hbh@rufus.isode.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:42:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4A30FB75.4010802@isode.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:41:25 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Doug Ewell <doug@ewellic.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:41:55 -0000 >Kent Karlsson wrote: > > > ... Replacing (DIGIT 3alphanum) by (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) would just > introduce needless ambiguity in the grammar. > >s/ambiguity/redundancy/ > > > > That said, Kent's response was spot-on. Everything that needs to be > covered in the existing production is covered. If it were really > desirable to remove the subtlety/cleverness in the ABNF, and **I DO > NOT PROPOSE CHANGING ANYTHING HERE**, the solution CE was thinking of > might have looked like this: > >variant = ALPHA 4*7alphanum ; registered variants > / (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) > > With my individual contributor hat on: IMHO, I think this variant is more readable. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Thu Jun 11 05:54:32 2009 Return-Path: <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD07A3A696D for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:54:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uamDn8rHKDNB for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97813A6821 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:34495 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>) id 1MEjne-0007fp-8m; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:54:36 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:54:22 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> To: "Martin J. =?ISO-8859-1?B?RPxyc3Q=?=" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> Message-ID: <C656CB1E.DAA4%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: Acnqk72r3zAoI0vRhUOSr9ZSilTOvA== In-Reply-To: <4A30F617.4080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MEjne-0007fp-8m. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MEjne-0007fp-8m add959da656508bf125a069b96f5736b Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:54:32 -0000 Den 2009-06-11 14.18, skrev "Martin J. D=FCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>: > There are no IETF conventions. But I also haven't found the <...> thingy > in Appendix A, Notational Conventions, of Unicode 5. So let's leave it ou= t. Page 1078 (http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/appA.pdf). Clause 6.6 (page 9) of ISO/IEC 10464:2003. /kent k From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 11 06:56:01 2009 Return-Path: <mark.edward.davis@gmail.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F613A6A4A for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.076 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bGZbeTqvOq4R for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from yw-out-2324.google.com (yw-out-2324.google.com [74.125.46.28]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B0833A6A4F for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:56:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yw-out-2324.google.com with SMTP id 3so726764ywj.49 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:56:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=k46dxnU5//V3syOkv7tFnV9QeE4k/GfTfluFnl2OF2U=; b=KjDkwGxudacoTsE6f+4UD0/lL0EH0d9FXB4nb509tayzuz4gJr0BhURrQz5xjKViAe b2cLTiZ3jo4EF1Zf4HOnhEcIX5vhO9xVRnp013IlciRw8Kt9aLamycJ270Cqru9GvK2T bWYqsrJFif4jykg5YoqhEt7Oq3qs4w+GOC0k4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=RZ9POAEa0Hn7ujQIMT9WwrIFxyv35e8O7WbpSqaFzE9LMIk3gUqfBFO6O1IFVTuIKL 6KfxhvGikEQ8Wcg9ocMESFPSpg7lQXq+wDAFAaAN0m13YGWj1qz9tFL/26nSbqWm1368 XDNvL5Sz9A6X+HVKPY/pC+XYTpKqIVrB5cAn4= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.231.15 with SMTP id d15mr2932616anh.77.1244728564477; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:56:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:56:04 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 630b5c548e4c33b9 Message-ID: <30b660a20906110656u16bc3065tc6298f968195ed75@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com> To: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016368e1e76ed6e77046c12f3a1 Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:56:01 -0000 --0016368e1e76ed6e77046c12f3a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think yours is any improvement on the old text, so if that is the only choice, I vote to leave as is. Mark On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 20:21, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.= jp>wrote: > [hats on] > > I declare consensus on the fact that we do not want to remove the MAY, > but are considering the clarification of the text. Please help converging > on a version of the text that is clearer than the original, but doesn't > change its meaning. > > [Randy, this doesn't close this issue yet] > > Please say whether you are okay with the new text proposed at the end of > this mail. > > On 2009/06/11 1:35, Mark Davis wrote: > >> Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the >> mark, >> since it is still talking about "the community", which is not defined an= d >> has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is >> doing >> what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for >> comparison. >> >> Mark: >> >> The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be >> stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative >> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry >> Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only >> modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of inten= t, >> and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the >> registry. >> > > This text introduces two new shoulds where we only had a MAY, unrelated t= o > the comment. This is clearly inappropriate at this stage of the process. > > OLD >> >>> While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable >>>> and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempt= s >>>> to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registr= y >>>> itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >>>> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provision= s >>>> in Section 3.4. >>>> >>> > Peter: >> >> The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata >> corrections >> or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the >> community, >> but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the >> registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or reject= ed >> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in >> Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since >> modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to b= e >> stable. >> > > I agree with Mark that 'community' isn't well defined. But it was in our > original text, so we can leave it in. However, Peter's text doubles it. I > propose removing the first one. I also re-added the quotes to 'Descriptio= n', > split a sentence, removed " or clarifications of intent" (well intended, = but > not in the original text), and changed the 'might' to 'are' ("errata migh= t > be acceptable" sounds as if some errata are not acceptable, which I would > have difficulties understanding). The new text I'm proposing is: > > > NEW text: > The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata > corrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. Howeve= r, > attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejecte= d > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in > Section 3.4. Note that, since modifications are possible, the Description > field is not guaranteed to be stable. > > Please say whether you are okay with the new text or want some additional > changes. If you propose additional changes, please include your full new > text after motivating the changes. If you propose changes, please try to > stay as close as possible to the text and intent of the original text. > > > Regards, Martin. > > -- > #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > --0016368e1e76ed6e77046c12f3a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think yours is any improvement on the old text, so if that is t= he only choice, I vote to leave as is.<br><br clear=3D"all">Mark<br> <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 20:21, "Mar= tin J. D=C3=BCrst" <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.a= oyama.ac.jp">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); mar= gin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> [hats on]<br> <br> I declare consensus on the fact that we do not want to remove the MAY,<br> but are considering the clarification of the text. Please help converging o= n a version of the text that is clearer than the original, but doesn't = change its meaning.<br> <br> [Randy, this doesn't close this issue yet]<br> <br> Please say whether you are okay with the new text proposed at the end of th= is mail.<div class=3D"im"><br> <br> On 2009/06/11 1:35, Mark Davis wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the = mark,<br> since it is still talking about "the community", which is not def= ined and<br> has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is doing= <br> what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for<br> comparison.<br> <br> Mark:<br> <br> The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be<br> stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative<br> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry<br> Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only<br> modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of intent,<= br> and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the<br> registry.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> This text introduces two new shoulds where we only had a MAY, unrelated to = the comment. This is clearly inappropriate at this stage of the process.<di= v class=3D"im"><br> <br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> OLD<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, = 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin= : 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> =C2=A0 =C2=A0While the 'Description' field itself is not guarantee= d to be stable<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, a= ttempts<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the r= egistry<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or reje= cted<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the pro= visions<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0in Section 3.4.<br> </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote> <br> </div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-l= eft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:= 1ex;"> Peter:<br> <br> The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections= <br> or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community= ,<br> but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the<br= > registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected<= br> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in<br> Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since<br> modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be<b= r> stable.<br> </blockquote> <br></div> I agree with Mark that 'community' isn't well defined. But it w= as in our original text, so we can leave it in. However, Peter's text d= oubles it. I propose removing the first one. I also re-added the quotes to = 'Description', split a sentence, removed " or clarifications o= f intent" (well intended, but not in the original text), and changed t= he 'might' to 'are' ("errata might be acceptable"= sounds as if some errata are not acceptable, which I would have difficulti= es understanding). The new text I'm proposing is:<br> <br> <br> NEW text:<br> The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata c= orrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. However, = attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the regist= ry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outrig= ht, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3= .4. Note that, since modifications are possible, the Description field is n= ot guaranteed to be stable.<br> <br> Please say whether you are okay with the new text or want some additional c= hanges. If you propose additional changes, please include your full new tex= t after motivating the changes. If you propose changes, please try to stay = as close as possible to the text and intent of the original text.<br> <br> <br> Regards, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.<br><font color=3D"#888888"> <br> -- <br></font><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"> #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University<br> #-# <a href=3D"http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">http://www.= sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp</a> =C2=A0 mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.= jp" target=3D"_blank">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a><br> </div></div></blockquote></div><br> --0016368e1e76ed6e77046c12f3a1-- From petercon@microsoft.com Thu Jun 11 07:01:57 2009 Return-Path: <petercon@microsoft.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F3513A6907 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:01:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.247 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.247 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lyLkoiEgc+Hb for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 650233A690F for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:02:03 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:02:03 -0700 From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> To: Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:02:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqZNdZK3HJ4bxPRbm+3wgOPFpk7AAOByGg Message-ID: <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611E4@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:01:57 -0000 VGhlIHJlYXNvbiB0aGF0IHRoZSByZXZpZXdlciBjb21tZW50ZWQgb24gdGhlIHVzZSBvZiBNQVkg aXMgdGhhdCB0aGUgd29yZGluZyB3YXMgc3VmZmljaWVudGx5IGxhY2tpbmcgaW4gY2xhcmlmeSBh cyB0byBzb3VuZCBhcyB0aG91Z2ggaXQgd2FzIGRlc2NyaWJpbmcgYSBmdXR1cmUgcG9zc2liaWxp dHkgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gdGhlIGludGVuZGVkIG1lYW5pbmcgb2YgZXhwcmVzc2x5IHNhbmN0aW9u aW5nIGNlcnRhaW4gYWN0aW9ucy4gVGhpcyByZXZpc2VkIHdvcmRpbmcgbWFrZXMgdGhhdCBpbnRl bmRlZCBtZWFuaW5nIGNsZWFyLg0KDQpQbGVhc2UgcmVjb25zaWRlci4NCg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KDQot 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DQpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From petercon@microsoft.com Thu Jun 11 07:04:56 2009 Return-Path: <petercon@microsoft.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA963A6919 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.392, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i-ZAmON73Zwj for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D45543A6907 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:05:02 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:05:01 -0700 From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> To: Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:04:59 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqnGhfkxAMbexhSYC+GMug6s00/QAASlZA Message-ID: <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611E8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906110656u16bc3065tc6298f968195ed75@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906110656u16bc3065tc6298f968195ed75@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611E8NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list 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--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611E8NAEXMSGC117re_-- From petercon@microsoft.com Thu Jun 11 07:11:00 2009 Return-Path: <petercon@microsoft.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A47B3A6907 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:11:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.379 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.379 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hcvtXS+Yc0kQ for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE8413A689A for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:10:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.86.9) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:11:06 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exmlt-c101.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.86.9]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:11:06 -0700 From: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com> To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 07:11:05 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text Thread-Index: AcnqjtdTPw5rHO13SlKsaOfkkP6ruQAD2t+g Message-ID: <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611EF@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> References: <C655611E.D9BB%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F9858.2030908@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92EC6@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4A30F617.4080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A30F617.4080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue 63: Replace %xgh with U+00gh in text X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:11:00 -0000 From: "Martin J. D=FCrst" [mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp]=20 > Also,=20 > as it turns out, RFC 5137 does not contain the U+ notation, so it would=20 > be wrong to cite that. Please see section 3 of RFC 5137: 3. Referring to Unicode Characters Regardless of what decisions are made about escapes for Unicode characters in protocol or similar contexts, text referring to a Unicode code point SHOULD use the U+NNNN[N[N]] syntax, as specified in the Unicode Standard, where the NNNN... string consists of hexadecimal numbers. Text actually containing a Unicode character SHOULD use a syntax more suitable for automated processing. Peter From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 10:00:51 2009 Return-Path: <addison@amazon.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C613B3A6D50 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.355 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.355 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFvfLVGhkHwH for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C86D3A6D49 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,203,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="231630992" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 17:00:51 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BH0ctq020163 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:00:38 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:00:36 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> To: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>, =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:00:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential Thread-Index: Acnqepb5bn6X2To1Q8GdDlP04u18WgAOsnsQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89064C9@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A193C2A.2000406@isode.com> <4A2ACE41.7050308@isode.com> <4A2D8C2C.7020409@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A7DCE0F8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A2E1EB9.7070200@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92865@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <30b660a20906090927m3e3413ado25f8e11834c7d1be@mail.gmail.com> <4A2FF725.7040707@isode.com> <4A305BCB.7080507@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A30D407.4050703@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A30D407.4050703@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:00:51 -0000 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQpDQoNCkluIGluY29ycG9yYXRpbmcgdGhpcyBmaXgsIEkgbm90aWNlIGEgYnVn LiBUaGUgb3JpZ2luYWwgRG9TIHRleHQgcmVmZXJyZWQgdG8gZXh0ZW5zaW9uIHJlZ2lzdHJpZXMg KHRob3NlIG5vdCBjb250cm9sbGVkIGJ5IElBTkEpLiBUaGUgcmVwbGFjZW1lbnQgdGV4dCByZWZl cnJlZCBvbmx5IHRvIHRoZSBJTFNSIGFuZCByZWdpc3RyeSBvZiBleHRlbnNpb25zLiBUaGVyZWZv cmUgSSBtb2RpZmllZCB0aGUgZXhpc3Rpbmcgc2VudGVuY2Ugd2hlbiBkb2luZyB0aGUgaW5zZXJ0 IHNvIHRoYXQgYWxsIHRocmVlIGNhc2VzIGFyZSBjb3ZlcmVkLiBJIGFsc28gbmVlZGVkIHRvIGNv cnJlY3QgdGhlIGdyYW1tYXIgb2YgdGhlIGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlIGFuZCB0aHVzIHRoZSByZXN1 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UHJhY3RpY2VzIGNoYW5nZSBvdmVyDQo+IHRpbWUuDQo+IA0KPiBbU3BlYWtpbmcgYXMgYSBjb250 cmlidXRvcjpdIEkgd291bGQgbXVjaCBwcmVmZXIgaWYgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50DQo+IGVuY291cmFn ZXMgZ29vZCBwcm90b2NvbCBwcmFjdGljZXMuIEl0IGlzIG5vdCByZWFzb25hYmxlIHRvIGFzc3Vt ZQ0KPiB0aGF0DQo+IGV2ZXJ5IHJlYWRlciB3b3VsZCBrbm93IHRoZSBiZXN0IHdheSBvZiBkb2lu ZyB0aGUgdGFzaywgdGhlcmUgYXJlDQo+IG11bHRpcGxlIGV4YW1wbGVzIG9mIHRoaXMgYmVpbmcg bm90IHRydWUgZm9yIG90aGVyIHByb3RvY29scy4NCj4gVGhlIGFkdmljZSBjYW4gc3RhcnQgd2l0 aCAiQXQgdGhlIHRpbWUgb2YgcHVibGljYXRpb24gb2YgdGhpcw0KPiBkb2N1bWVudA0KPiBJQU5B IGlzIGV4cG9ydGluZyB0aGUgTGFuZ3VhZ2UgVGFnIHJlZ2lzdHJ5IG92ZXIgSFRUUCwgLi4uIg0K PiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4g THRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9y Zy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCg== From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 10:32:49 2009 Return-Path: <addison@amazon.com> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9913A69D2 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.179 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.179 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.481, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LpxyLx+pX7kx for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0B7A3A6873 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,203,1243814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="198468530" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 17:32:54 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BHWr8S003537 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:32:53 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:32:53 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> To: Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:32:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqnGhfkxAMbexhSYC+GMug6s00/QAASlZAAAb3aEA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <C6546056.D946%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06C92ED8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906110656u16bc3065tc6298f968195ed75@mail.gmail.com> <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611E8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> In-Reply-To: <DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D611E8@NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657AEXSEA5Dantama_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:32:50 -0000 --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657AEXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 TGFja2luZyBjbGVhciBndWlkYW5jZSwgSSBhbSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgTWFydGlu4oCZcyBjb25zZW5z dXMgZGV0ZXJtaW5hdGlvbiB0aGF0IHdlIHNob3VsZCBjb252ZXJnZSBvbiBhIHZlcnNpb24gb2Yg dGhlIHRleHQgdGhhdCBpcyDigJxjbGVhcmVyIHRoYW4gdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsLCBidXQgZG9lc27i 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X-Spam-Score: -106.445 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.445 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.146, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z+acwix7pSTY for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BB343A6873 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,203,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="198469579" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 17:35:13 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BHYvB2025474 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:34:57 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:34:57 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com> To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:35:02 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: AcnqPxlmP0bYebqyTBGdn/W2WKswNwAe8XPw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8906585@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <mailman.9042.1244628136.4936.ltru@ietf.org> <B14B26768DE5410CB934AE2E079FFE1C@DGBP7M81> <1cf601c9e9cc$e68de970$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <30b660a20906100658j44bded6dk53613d2befdac89b@mail.gmail.com> <1d0a01c9e9d4$322f50b0$0300a8c0@Vickynew> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056E5@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A307058.3030100@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A307058.3030100@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: 'LTRU Working Group' <ltru@ietf.org>, 'Doug Ewell' <doug@ewellic.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:35:08 -0000 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgb24pDQoNCkkgZG8gbm90IGhhdmUgbW9yZSBjdXJyZW50IGd1aWRhbmNlIG9u IHRoaXMgaXNzdWUsIHNvIEkgYW0gdHJlYXRpbmcgaXQgYXMgcmVzb2x2ZWQgYXMgJ3dvbnRmaXgn Lg0KDQpBZGRpc29uDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0 IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3QgYSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQg aXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4g RnJvbTogIk1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3QiIFttYWlsdG86ZHVlcnN0QGl0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcF0N Cj4gU2VudDogV2VkbmVzZGF5LCBKdW5lIDEwLCAyMDA5IDc6NDggUE0NCj4gVG86IFBoaWxsaXBz LCBBZGRpc29uDQo+IENjOiBkZWJiaWVAaWN0bWFya2V0aW5nLmNvLnVrOyAnTWFyayBEYXZpcyc7 ICdMVFJVIFdvcmtpbmcgR3JvdXAnOw0KPiAnRG91ZyBFd2VsbCcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFtM dHJ1XSBJc3N1ZSAjNTk6IHJlcGxhY2UgUkVDT01NRU5ERUQgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugd2l0aA0KPiBNVVNU bGFuZ3VhZ2UgaW4gMi4yLjEgKEFwcHMgIzEyYSkNCj4gDQo+IFtoYXRzIG9uXQ0KPiANCj4gT24g MjAwOS8wNi8xMSAwOjIxLCBQaGlsbGlwcywgQWRkaXNvbiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBJIG9wcG9zZSBt 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IEdha3VpbiBVbml2ZXJzaXR5DQo+ICMtIyBodHRwOi8vd3d3LnN3Lml0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcCAg IG1haWx0bzpkdWVyc3RAaXQuYW95YW1hLmFjLmpwDQo= From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Thu Jun 11 10:44:47 2009 Return-Path: <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DF0628C0CF for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:44:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.282 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.282 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.980, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ciow-+rVdgg6 for <ltru@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 479E928C146 for <ltru@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:35562 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se>) id 1MEoKV-0000lS-9E; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:44:50 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:44:39 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson <kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> To: "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>, Peter Constable <petercon@microsoft.com>, Mark Davis <mark@macchiato.com>, "Martin J. =?ISO-8859-1?B?RPxyc3Q=?=" <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Message-ID: <C6570F27.DAC4%kent.karlsson14@comhem.se> Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqnGhfkxAMbexhSYC+GMug6s00/QAASlZAAAb3aEAAALbq5A== In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3327594287_4792540" X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MEoKV-0000lS-9E. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MEoKV-0000lS-9E d363ca81ab5d73cce0ce524886391233 Cc: LTRU Working Group <ltru@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list <ltru.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru> List-Post: <mailto:ltru@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru>, <mailto:ltru-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:44:47 -0000 > Detta meddelande Šr i MIME-format. PŒ grund av att din e-postlŠsare inte fšrstŒr detta format, kommer hela eller delar av detta meddelande inte att vara lŠsbart. --B_3327594287_4792540 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I would suggest deleting "by the community", since that does not seem to play any essential role in this paragraph, and some (Mark at least, IIRC) found a reference to the "community" objectionable. Personally, I don't like the formulation "frowned upon" either, but no-one else has complained... /kent k Den 2009-06-11 19.32, skrev "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>: > -- > <t>The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and > MAY be modified via the registration process. Errata > corrections or clarifications of intent are most typical. > Attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries > in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or > rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the > provisions in <xref target="ianastability"></xref>.</t> > -- --B_3327594287_4792540 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable <HTML> <HEAD> <TITLE>Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(= Apps #13)
I would suggest deleting "by the community", since that does not = seem
to play any essential role in this paragraph, and some (Mark at least, IIRC= )
found a reference to the "community" objectionable. Personally, I= don't
like the formulation "frowned upon" either, but no-one else has c= omplained...


    /kent k


Den 2009-06-11 19.32, skrev "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>:
<= SPAN STYLE=3D'font-size:11pt'>--
<t>The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and<= BR> MAY be modified via the registration process. Errata
corrections or clarifications of intent are most typical.
Attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries
in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the
provisions in <xref target=3D"ianastability"></xref>.&l= t;/t>
--
--B_3327594287_4792540-- From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 10:45:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5FD028C191 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.586 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.586 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.013, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P8pgs2otJhBG for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A93E28C14C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,203,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="280806727" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 17:45:20 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.22]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BHjK0L018963 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:45:20 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4101.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.22]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:11 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "'LTRU Working Group'" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:45:17 -0700 Thread-Topic: draft-23 editor's copy updated Thread-Index: AcnqvGHKpHCOMHyWSV2AAcAedGE/Rw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89065B8@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: [Ltru] draft-23 editor's copy updated X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:45:16 -0000 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT04pDQoNCkFsbCwNCg0KSSBoYXZlIGp1c3QgcG9zdGVkIGFuIGVkaXRvcidz IGNvcHkgb2YgZHJhZnQtMjMgdG8gSW50ZXItTG9jYWxlLiBIZXJlIGFyZSB0aGUgbGlua3M6DQoN CiAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaW50ZXItbG9jYWxlLmNvbS9JRC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0cnUtNDY0NmJp cy0yMy50eHQNCiAgIGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaW50ZXItbG9jYWxlLmNvbS9JRC9kcmFmdC1pZXRmLWx0 cnUtNDY0NmJpcy0yMy5odG1sDQogICBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmludGVyLWxvY2FsZS5jb20vSUQvZHJh ZnQtaWV0Zi1sdHJ1LTQ2NDZiaXMtMjMueG1sDQoNCkRpZmZzIGFyZToNCg0KICAgaHR0cDovL3Rp bnl1cmwuY29tL25yZXB4cg0KICAgaHR0cDovL3Rpbnl1cmwuY29tL20za29haiAoaHdkaWZmKQ0K DQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0K SW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVj dHVyZS4NCg0KDQo= From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 10:49:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA043A6878 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.136 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.136 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.438, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oG16kYbudHq9 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69153A680D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,203,1243814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="198476517" Received: from smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com ([10.248.183.18]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 17:49:59 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-4104.sea5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BHnwCl008884 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:49:58 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:49:58 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Kent Karlsson , Peter Constable , Mark Davis , =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIEouIETDvHJzdA==?= Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:50:04 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqnGhfkxAMbexhSYC+GMug6s00/QAASlZAAAb3aEAAALbq5AAAB9zA Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89065D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89065D3EXSEA5Dantama_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:49:53 -0000 --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89065D3EXSEA5Dantama_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 11 11:20:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AB603A6B7F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:20:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.489, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9SmjBH3hyEaL for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D8213A6A87 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c3so821406ana.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=cmZB7U/DYPosvTevjG9uCLrSYayaEXXYmlXI9yMRFbc=; b=cGAkLpExD6YTQHNgt+CPEDgBttkBTO1m3E/NXozwbD2IbE/dVOrv7kNs/pHpBaFmX4 cs+92la9r262NYJlaEssPvie4aLjZhqQrbChl9zLJ/be5YmpmZIv/7ywsMalDKC8H2Vk h+sLvUwQvLNTXKazaF3YCVA5NCBdOONOPreYE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=Fd7z8XIePJFQkhBeEmsnWU2GDoIaERpqnjORff5S3XwABx93niV1wbJjhH9jyj4ncP Mt8jCGc2o5fvVhwab4aUBwQ6kuk4zfGw1E/YSY2qtdvmrryQAywZMwjlG33tdaThMfB9 ZDovfcq5U/3C7MVwx+RSyIy8+ceyaBg5Jsys8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.152.12 with SMTP id z12mr3334617and.96.1244744460828; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:21:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906110656u16bc3065tc6298f968195ed75@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:21:00 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: cec1dc1a0f57249f Message-ID: <30b660a20906111121l4dc1ddb4uc972c7b14053f1e6@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e645b83c6c8759046c16a714 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:20:58 -0000 --0016e645b83c6c8759046c16a714 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no objections to the change. In some future version we can fix the goofy use of "frowned upon by the community". Mark On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:32, Phillips, Addison wrote= : > Lacking clear guidance, I am following Martin=E2=80=99s consensus determ= ination > that we should converge on a version of the text that is =E2=80=9Cclearer= than the > original, but doesn=E2=80=99t change its meaning=E2=80=9D. I have therefo= re replaced this > paragraph: > > > > -- > > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and > errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts to provi= de > translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will > probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as change= s > of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability > of IANA Registry Entries) > . > > -- > > > > With the following, adapted from Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, but aping as = closely as > possible the original wording: > > > > -- > > The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and MAY = be > modified via the registration process. Errata > > corrections or clarifications of intent are most typical. > > Attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries > > in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or > > rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the > > provisions in . > > -- > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* Peter Constable [mailto:petercon@microsoft.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:05 AM > *To:* Mark Davis; Martin J. D=C3=BCrst > *Cc:* Phillips, Addison; Kent Karlsson; LTRU Working Group > *Subject:* RE: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > > > > Mark, please see my reply to Randy. > > > > *From:* mark.edward.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] = *On > Behalf Of *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:56 AM > *To:* Martin J. D=C3=BCrst > *Cc:* Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable; Kent Karlsson; LTRU Working > Group > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > > > > I don't think yours is any improvement on the old text, so if that is the > only choice, I vote to leave as is. > > Mark > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 20:21, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" > wrote: > > [hats on] > > I declare consensus on the fact that we do not want to remove the MAY, > but are considering the clarification of the text. Please help converging > on a version of the text that is clearer than the original, but doesn't > change its meaning. > > [Randy, this doesn't close this issue yet] > > Please say whether you are okay with the new text proposed at the end of > this mail. > > > > On 2009/06/11 1:35, Mark Davis wrote: > > Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the > mark, > since it is still talking about "the community", which is not defined and > has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is doi= ng > what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for > comparison. > > Mark: > > The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be > stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative > impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry > Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only > modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of intent= , > and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry. > > > > This text introduces two new shoulds where we only had a MAY, unrelated t= o > the comment. This is clearly inappropriate at this stage of the process. > > > > OLD > > While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable > and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts > to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry > itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions > in Section 3.4. > > > > Peter: > > The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata correctio= ns > or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the > community, > but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejecte= d > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in > Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since > modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be > stable. > > > > I agree with Mark that 'community' isn't well defined. But it was in our > original text, so we can leave it in. However, Peter's text doubles it. I > propose removing the first one. I also re-added the quotes to 'Descriptio= n', > split a sentence, removed " or clarifications of intent" (well intended, = but > not in the original text), and changed the 'might' to 'are' ("errata migh= t > be acceptable" sounds as if some errata are not acceptable, which I would > have difficulties understanding). The new text I'm proposing is: > > > NEW text: > The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata > corrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. Howeve= r, > attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the > registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejecte= d > outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in > Section 3.4. Note that, since modifications are possible, the Description > field is not guaranteed to be stable. > > Please say whether you are okay with the new text or want some additional > changes. If you propose additional changes, please include your full new > text after motivating the changes. If you propose changes, please try to > stay as close as possible to the text and intent of the original text. > > > Regards, Martin. > > -- > > #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > > --0016e645b83c6c8759046c16a714 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no objections to the change. In some future version we can fix the g= oofy use of "frowned upon by the community".

Mark


On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 10:32, Phillips,= Addison <addiso= n@amazon.com> wrote:

Lacking clear = guidance, I am following Martin=E2=80=99s consensus determination that we should converge on a version of the text that is =E2= =80=9Cclearer than the original, but doesn=E2=80=99t change its meaning=E2=80=9D. I have = therefore replaced this paragraph:

=C2=A0<= /p>

--

While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts= to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself wi= ll probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes = of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section=C2=A03.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries).

--

=C2=A0<= /p>

With the follo= wing, adapted from Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, but aping as closely as possible the original wording:

=C2=A0<= /p>

--

<t>The &= #39;Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and MAY be modified via the registration process. Errata

corrections or= clarifications of intent are most typical.

Attempts to pr= ovide translations or transcriptions of entries

in the registr= y itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or

rejected outri= ght, as changes of this nature have an impact on the

provisio= ns in <xref target=3D"ianastability"></xref>.</t>

--

<= div class=3D"im">

=C2=A0<= /p>

Addison Phillip= s

Globalization A= rchitect -- Lab126

=C2=A0

Internationaliz= ation is not a feature.

It is an archit= ecture.

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: Peter Constable [mailto:peterco= n@microsoft.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 7:05 AM
To: Mark Davis; Martin J. D=C3=BCrst
Cc: Phillips, Addison; Kent Karlsson; LTRU Working Group
Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Descriptio= n errata(Apps #13)

=C2=A0

Mark, please s= ee my reply to Randy.

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: mark.edwar= d.davis@gmail.com [mailto:mark.edward.davis@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:56 AM
To: Martin J. D=C3=BCrst
Cc: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable; Kent Karlsson; LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Descriptio= n errata(Apps #13)

=C2=A0

I don't think yours is any improvement on the old text, so if that is the only choice, I vote to leave= as is.

Mark

On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 20:21, "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" <duerst@it.a= oyama.ac.jp> wrote:

[hats on]

I declare consensus on the fact that we do not want to remove the MAY,
but are considering the clarification of the text. Please help converging o= n a version of the text that is clearer than the original, but doesn't chan= ge its meaning.

[Randy, this doesn't close this issue yet]

Please say whether you are okay with the new text proposed at the end of th= is mail.



On 2009/06/11 1:35, Mark Davis wrote:

Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the mark,
since it is still talking about "the community", which is not def= ined and
has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is doing=
what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for
comparison.

Mark:

The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be
stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative
impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry
Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only
modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of intent,<= br> and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the
registry.

=C2=A0

This text introduces two new shoulds where we only had a MAY, unrelated to the comment. This is clearly inappropriate at this stage = of the process.

=C2=A0

OLD

=C2=A0 =C2=A0While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts
=C2=A0 =C2=A0to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry
=C2=A0 =C2=A0itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejec= ted
=C2=A0 =C2=A0outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0in Section 3.4.

=C2=A0

Peter:

The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata corrections=
or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the community= ,
but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected<= br> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in
Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since
modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable.

=C2=A0

I agree with Mark that 'community' isn't well defined. But it was in our original text, so we can leave it in. However, Peter's te= xt doubles it. I propose removing the first one. I also re-added the quotes to 'Description', split a sentence, removed " or clarifications o= f intent" (well intended, but not in the original text), and changed the 'might' to 'are' ("errata might be acceptable" so= unds as if some errata are not acceptable, which I would have difficulties understanding). = The new text I'm proposing is:


NEW text:
The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata c= orrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry itself wi= ll probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected outright, as changes = of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.4. Note that, sin= ce modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable.

Please say whether you are okay with the new text or want some additional changes. If you propose additional changes, please include your full new te= xt after motivating the changes. If you propose changes, please try to stay as close as possible to the text and intent of the original text.


Regards, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.

--

#-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
#-# http://www.= sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp =C2=A0 mailto:d= uerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp

=C2=A0


--0016e645b83c6c8759046c16a714-- From petercon@microsoft.com Thu Jun 11 11:23:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35A223A68B8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:23:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.226 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.226 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id irBRH1QMYfZA for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail2.microsoft.com [131.107.115.215]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F483A67B1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.97) by TK5-EXGWY-E802.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:23:26 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.97]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:23:20 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:23:19 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: AcnqwWKJdBzTgt+VTbObVmeiJAf11AAAEzUA Message-ID: References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <30b660a20906110656u16bc3065tc6298f968195ed75@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906111121l4dc1ddb4uc972c7b14053f1e6@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906111121l4dc1ddb4uc972c7b14053f1e6@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D613D4NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: LTRU Working Group , Kent Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:23:21 -0000 --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D613D4NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 KzENCg0KRnJvbTogbWFyay5lZHdhcmQuZGF2aXNAZ21haWwuY29tIFttYWlsdG86bWFyay5lZHdh 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c3M9TXNvTm9ybWFsPjxvOnA+Jm5ic3A7PC9vOnA+PC9wPg0KDQo8L2Rpdj4NCg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0K DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D613D4NAEXMSGC117re_-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 11 12:03:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 280FC28C20A for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.246 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.246 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.247, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jTSlnuag2PYI for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD09C28C157 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:03:39 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=naG6UeEQQU9Syp7yFAqEtYVzVFMMa3SqngUD7ZzUq/g37iqV+vuqZTWUSvSOv5ob; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.22] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MEpYw-0001LM-Q3 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:03:47 -0400 Message-ID: <001901c9eac7$60915ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A30EC3B.3080806@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:03:58 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696869c9208d7dceb5ce4c2eaa0d917d9fd4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.22 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:03:42 -0000 Hi - As a technical contributor... > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:36 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) > > [co-chair hat on] > > Hello Randy, > > (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, and you > probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already > declared that we have consensus that we should improve the wording > (without changing the substance), because we think that the comment was > based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. > > If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, so > that we can reopen discussion on that part. No, there seem to be plenty of people who want to spend time fine-tuning the wording, so I think you called the consensus correctly. > If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring consensus > on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the remaining > parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. No, although I find it quite a stretch to read this "misunderstanding" into the reviewer's comment, which read: | Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is | trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. > Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and subissues) > currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly as > possible. ... Of course. The substance of my comment is that I find the recently word-smithed text no better than the original. If we must change it, I'd prefer something like this, which would also (incidentally) address the reviewer's comment: The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. Corrections and clarifications of intent are examples of possible changes. However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries (which by definition provide no new information) are unlikely to be approved. I think the existing statement "as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in Section 3.4" is simply incorrect, and *if* we're going to open up this paragraph, that text should be stricken. Randy From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 12:13:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ACCA3A6A98 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:13:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.200, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sqRosowBawmQ for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7993F3A6801 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:13:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,204,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="231687084" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 19:13:42 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BJDfGn026848 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:13:42 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:13:41 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:13:40 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnqx3eJUYe5UM+URpWyiQ/6fKf/xgAASt4Q Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4702D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A30EC3B.3080806@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <001901c9eac7$60915ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001901c9eac7$60915ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:13:37 -0000 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT0ZGKQ0KDQpJIHByZWZlciBSYW5keSdzIHRleHQgdG8gdGhhdCBpbiB0aGUg 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IGdvaW5nIHRvIG9wZW4gdXAgdGhpcyBwYXJhZ3JhcGgsIHRoYXQgdGV4dCBzaG91bGQgYmUgc3Ry aWNrZW4uDQo+IA0KPiBSYW5keQ0KPiANCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IEx0cnUgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IEx0cnVAaWV0Zi5v cmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Thu Jun 11 12:23:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF6B228C209 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:23:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.06 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.06 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.061, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qPuK8NU+Etgq for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B97D28C157 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:36820 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MEprw-0005nY-7Y; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:23:27 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:23:21 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Phillips, Addison" , Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnqx3eJUYe5UM+URpWyiQ/6fKf/xgAASt4QAABcctU= In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4702D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 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X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MEprw-0005nY-7Y 72fbd6de2267a385ca86ec1e4ede7f34 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:23:30 -0000 +1 The intent of the MAY, which is omitted in Randy's text, is covered in section 3.4 point 3. /kent k Den 2009-06-11 21.13, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : > (editor hat OFF) >=20 > I prefer Randy's text to that in the draft. Any objection to putting it i= n > place and then submitting the results?? >=20 > Addison >=20 > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 >=20 > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:04 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >> Description errata(Apps #13) >>=20 >> Hi - >>=20 >> As a technical contributor... >>=20 >>> From: "Martin J. D=FCrst" >>> To: "Randy Presuhn" >>> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:36 AM >>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >> Description errata(Apps #13) >>>=20 >>> [co-chair hat on] >>>=20 >>> Hello Randy, >>>=20 >>> (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, >> and you >>> probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already >>> declared that we have consensus that we should improve the >> wording >>> (without changing the substance), because we think that the >> comment was >>> based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. >>>=20 >>> If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, >> so >>> that we can reopen discussion on that part. >>=20 >> No, there seem to be plenty of people who want to spend time fine- >> tuning >> the wording, so I think you called the consensus correctly. >>=20 >>> If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring >> consensus >>> on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the >> remaining >>> parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. >>=20 >> No, although I find it quite a stretch to read this >> "misunderstanding" >> into the reviewer's comment, which read: >>=20 >> | Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it >> is >> | trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol >> option. >>=20 >>> Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and >> subissues) >>> currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly >> as >>> possible. >> ... >>=20 >> Of course. The substance of my comment is that I find the recently >> word-smithed text no better than the original. If we must change >> it, >> I'd prefer something like this, which would also (incidentally) >> address >> the reviewer's comment: >>=20 >> The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. >> Corrections and clarifications of intent are examples of >> possible changes. However, attempts to provide translations >> or transcriptions of entries (which by definition provide no >> new information) are unlikely to be approved. >>=20 >> I think the existing statement "as changes of this nature have an >> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4" is simply incorrect, and >> *if* >> we're going to open up this paragraph, that text should be stricken. >>=20 >> Randy >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing > list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From petercon@microsoft.com Thu Jun 11 12:47:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44B133A6C49 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.222, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfT0D5cIxlI3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EDC13A6C45 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:16 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:16 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: "Phillips, Addison" , Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:14 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnqx3eJUYe5UM+URpWyiQ/6fKf/xgAASt4QAAEwo/A= Message-ID: References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <000801c9ea64$b5ae54a0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A30EC3B.3080806@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <001901c9eac7$60915ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4702D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4702D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:47:11 -0000 SSdtIE9LIHdpdGggUmFuZHkncyB0ZXh0Lg0KDQpQZXRlcg0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3Nh Z2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogbHRydS1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIFttYWlsdG86bHRydS1ib3VuY2Vz QGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24NClNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5 LCBKdW5lIDExLCAyMDA5IDEyOjE0IFBNDQpUbzogUmFuZHkgUHJlc3VobjsgTFRSVSBXb3JraW5n IEdyb3VwDQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW0x0cnVdIElzc3VlICM2MTogUHJvYmxlbSB3aXRoIE1BWSBp biAzLjUgb24gRGVzY3JpcHRpb24gZXJyYXRhKEFwcHMgIzEzKQ0KDQooZWRpdG9yIGhhdCBPRkYp DQoNCkkgcHJlZmVyIFJhbmR5J3MgdGV4dCB0byB0aGF0IGluIHRoZSBkcmFmdC4gQW55IG9iamVj dGlvbiB0byBwdXR0aW5nIGl0IGluIHBsYWNlIGFuZCB0aGVuIHN1Ym1pdHRpbmcgdGhlIHJlc3Vs 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bmR5DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX18NCj4gTHRydSBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gTHRydUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL2x0cnUNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KTHRydUBpZXRmLm9y Zw0KaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9sdHJ1DQo= From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 11 12:58:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8023A6A37 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:58:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iKk1STZZthFq for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25FA73A67EE for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [92.40.128.7] (92.40.128.7.sub.mbb.three.co.uk [92.40.128.7]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:58:52 +0100 Message-ID: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:58:14 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: ltru@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:58:47 -0000 I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for this one, as this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG members. So let me try to suggest a specific text. OLD: At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA. NEW: At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA. I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to do is not the point of this issue. From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Thu Jun 11 14:11:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C22D3A6D9B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:11:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.356 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.356 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.243, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id teM+8-6skX1q for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AAD3A6D97 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33025 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MErYG-0004eJ-8f; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:11:15 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:11:11 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Alexey Melnikov , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acnq2SU4U9vM/nqtzkqogl/FeeuPOA== In-Reply-To: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MErYG-0004eJ-8f. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MErYG-0004eJ-8f cbfed0406b470844e490a31f9d5c9fd2 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:11:16 -0000 Having seen the discussion around this issue, I think "MUST" here is going overboard. This has not been a problem before, and I don't foresee that this would be a problem in the future. In practice, there is no real difference, but a "MUST" here seems to push this into the absurd ("document e-mail thread", "180 days limit", ...). So I'm opposed to the suggested change. Nit: "ISO 639" cannot register anything, nor do anything else, it's a series of standards, not a registration authority. Another nit: "will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA", seems to imply that registration is inevitable, despite close scrutiny. /kent k Den 2009-06-11 21.58, skrev "Alexey Melnikov" : > I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for this one, as > this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG members. > So let me try to suggest a specific text. > > OLD: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > NEW: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > > I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to do > is not the point of this issue. > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 11 14:20:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153EE3A6AC1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:20:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.056, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QJLTX0DuTdCh for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.65]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178133A68B8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:20:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=TE5Emcd9W5XGHrf2rfDUfozY0SxUOPCiAVVcb9ti0tNfz070UHIvHxgUqiT+o1+E; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.244] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-kukur.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MErh4-0000sR-8c for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:20:18 -0400 Message-ID: <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:20:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968fef25ad5072f8b16d64507000d68ced4350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.244 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:20:12 -0000 Hi - > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:58 PM > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > > I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for this one, as > this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG members. > So let me try to suggest a specific text. > > OLD: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > NEW: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > > I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to do > is not the point of this issue. As a technical contributor... As long as the understanding is that we don't need to go back and wordsmith to cover the cases of indefinite delay, non-response, or tweaks to the scope of what is covered by the registration in ISO-land, I'd be OK with Alex's proposed text. Randy From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 11 14:37:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9945A3A6BB2 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:37:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.140, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I3W6eIEFwXZ5 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.245]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 816133A6A87 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c3so881180ana.4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:37:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=MCeHCL6IA71NoL1228WH+VRQJiWWvP1bmhVTozUwjDE=; b=CpJLGr0bLXqsFPLaV7fRKtNmSlOjK7On22Uh7IsTgn7TvE3yuZPx8a2USJ6U8I4aDv a1wEuIAhCqi+Kz/NX9FExsebW71z1iBIyEtzTCyBn1AjTdemF6bf0g4mHMwd+3mJJPrx Kvji4f8z765q0uZBNAXgKEgmRii1doIpdLkBI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=cbO4u2XT7LJy/5D2FVi1EFvIseWPXobLJ8+jgFfn2ZOFctRvM8fNMeKWR2Z8MAkcWQ 07uat92jc4fMZFhbyry0/mQLqPO0cv+MQMTQbjchunWAm8/DBTfHnPVW9BO9zJoCVBHU KwIVerdwmqFMyyLeryDIziGN265wXCOkgG96M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.125.15 with SMTP id x15mr3578888anc.73.1244756267431; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:37:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:37:42 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bd27dd8775d4a408 Message-ID: <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: Randy Presuhn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e644d0cc283136046c19677a Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:37:44 -0000 --0016e644d0cc283136046c19677a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me too. I'd be even happier with proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA. => proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- JAC MUST be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA. The proposal should not try to predict what the LSR will do, it should explicitly tell the LSR what to do, and that means a MUST. Mark On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 14:20, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:58 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage > in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > > > > I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for this one, as > > this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG > members. > > So let me try to suggest a specific text. > > > > OLD: > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > > > NEW: > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > > > > > I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to do > > is not the point of this issue. > > As a technical contributor... > > As long as the understanding is that we don't need to go back and > wordsmith to cover the cases of indefinite delay, non-response, or > tweaks to the scope of what is covered by the registration in ISO-land, > I'd be OK with Alex's proposed text. > > Randy > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016e644d0cc283136046c19677a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Me too. I'd be even happier with

proposals rejected by ISO 639/ = RA-
JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
before they are registered with IANA.
=3D>
proposals rejected by I= SO 639/ RA-
JAC MUST be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
before they are registered with IANA.

The proposal should not try to= predict what the LSR will do, it should explicitly tell the LSR what to do= , and that means a MUST.

Mark


On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 14:20, Randy Pre= suhn <= randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:58 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlangu= age in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)
>
> I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for th= is one, as
> this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG mem= bers.
> So let me try to suggest a specific text.
>
> OLD:
> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of
> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
> before they are registered with IANA.
>
> NEW:
> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of
> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
> discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
> before they are registered with IANA.
>
>
> I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to d= o
> is not the point of this issue.

As a technical contributor...

As long as the understanding is that we don't need to go back and
wordsmith to cover the cases of indefinite delay, non-response, or
tweaks to the scope of what is covered by the registration in ISO-land,
I'd be OK with Alex's proposed text.

Randy

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016e644d0cc283136046c19677a-- From cewcathar@hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 16:19:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4553A6980 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.265 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.667, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jEyaJJN9KU-B for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s8.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s8.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E56EC3A697C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W19 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s8.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:19:29 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_c0a92fca-5dc2-4285-a8e4-78a197a9873c_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.63.66] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:19:29 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jun 2009 23:19:29.0772 (UTC) FILETIME=[120B62C0:01C9EAEB] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:19:23 -0000 --_c0a92fca-5dc2-4285-a8e4-78a197a9873c_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Debbie's proposal makes sense. --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com =20 From: "Debbie Garside" =20 Date: Wed=2C 10 Jun 2009 14:11:00 +0100=20 > Not wishing to hold this up... but it would be better to have a MUST and = it > is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text: > ---=20 > In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for > registration within the Language Subtag Registry=2C the requester MUST su= pply > evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC {or its su= ccessor} to encode the > entity and that the request has been rejected. --_c0a92fca-5dc2-4285-a8e4-78a197a9873c_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Debbie's proposal makes sense.
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

 =3B

From: "Debbie Garside" <=3Bdebbie= at ictmarketing.co.uk>=3B
Date: Wed=2C 10 Jun 2009 14:11:00 +0100 
>=3B Not wishing to hold this up... but it would =
be better to have a MUST and it
>=3B is perfectly simple to enforce. Proposed text:

>=3B ---=20

>=3B In order for a primary language subtag request to be considered for
>=3B registration within the Language Subtag Registry=2C the requester MU=
ST supply
>=3B evidence that they have previously applied to the ISO 639 JAC  {or i=
ts successor} to encode the
>=3B entity and that the request has been rejected.
= --_c0a92fca-5dc2-4285-a8e4-78a197a9873c_-- From cewcathar@hotmail.com Thu Jun 11 16:24:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DAF3A6C49 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.500, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M9tHNnOTlTt1 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s2.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s2.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.77]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9F813A6BB2 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W26 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s2.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:24:31 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_947d4acb-6148-46d9-8f26-f22e4b41afb6_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.63.66] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:24:31 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jun 2009 23:24:31.0827 (UTC) FILETIME=[C6155230:01C9EAEB] Subject: Re: [Ltru] par 3 of 2.2, "identification of subtag's type" (was Additional issues with 4646bis raised by an Apps Review Team review) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:24:27 -0000 --_947d4acb-6148-46d9-8f26-f22e4b41afb6_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi--the table does get worse the more you try to change it I guess=2C but I= still do not think everything is perfectly clear in the table (I can make= sense of it because I know what everything is meant to mean). =20 That said=2C it's still a useful table as far as showing the structure of l= anguage subtags! =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com From: "Doug Ewell" =20 Date: Wed=2C 10 Jun 2009 19:46:54 -0600=20 =20 > Kent Karlsson wrote: ... Replacing (DIGIT 3alphanum) by (DIGIT 3*7alphanum) would just introduce= needless ambiguity in the grammar. s/ambiguity/redundancy/ > That said=2C Kent's response was spot-on. Everything that needs to be cov= ered in the existing production is covered. = --_947d4acb-6148-46d9-8f26-f22e4b41afb6_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi--the table does get worse the more you try to change it I guess=2C b= ut I still do not think everything is perfectly clear in the table =3B = (I can make sense of it because I know what everything is meant to mean).  =3B
That said=2C it's still a useful table as far as showing the structure of l= anguage subtags!
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

From: "Doug Ewell" <=3Bdoug at ewellic.org&= gt=3B

Date: Wed=2C 10 Jun 2009 19:46:54 -0600

 =3B

>=3B Kent Karlsson wrote=
:

... Replacing (DIGIT 3alphanum) by (DIGIT 3*7alp= hanum) would just introduce needless ambiguity in the grammar. 

s/ambiguity/redunda=
ncy/
>=3B That said=2C Kent's response was spot-on. Everything that needs=
 to be covered in the existing production is covered.
= --_947d4acb-6148-46d9-8f26-f22e4b41afb6_-- From lhs@malform.no Thu Jun 11 16:33:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 742743A69D7 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:33:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iUYpWrkMIBA5 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35F83A6980 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:33:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.110.159.getinternet.no ([84.208.110.159] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MEtmG-0004MK-Dd; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:33:48 +0200 Message-ID: <4A31945B.9000304@malform.no> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 01:33:47 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:33:43 -0000 +1 Alexey Melnikov On 09-06-11 21.58: > NEW: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. -- leif halvard silli From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 16:47:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5083A6837 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:47:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.56 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.56 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mwGSOh4uzrpP for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DFFE3A67ED for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,205,1243814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="198639692" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Jun 2009 23:47:14 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5BNlDXT032690 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:47:14 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:47:13 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Mark Davis , Randy Presuhn Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:47:12 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acnq3OJPfhRBuqckTweK469oLSe5ZwAEJOuQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4EXSEA5Dantama_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , 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DQoNCjwvYm9keT4NCg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4EXSEA5Dantama_-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 11 16:58:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B205F28C11C for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.103 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.103 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.127, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j9DTwbuBg3lj for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f195.google.com (mail-yx0-f195.google.com [209.85.210.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34ECD28C14F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe33 with SMTP id 33so47291yxe.32 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:58:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=RsjZw9ZfN0unKTUcbHvX3qxH98Be7sGOPBRvVvnl7+Y=; b=dFZKQzlGBQGYgFsNpykSqE1u6uAEg5nHx3zelfBJCy4Ynp8UX/5wPUZxPgRgVNSs7I RcK/z2afW7Uon+sPRsDDXI65B0or5yB2dyN9VK6YhZEFE6/v4frGGwc2pAY0g7zEOdxf zbB2RgiagOZPaI8lECrEJ5srrmfXG3wKTV71w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=WuDKzyO2UDIu78Sxx28leoakRa1UDZd1r7G5zC4xlfiFKmPRPnUMU1yd0S15m5dSpJ GcuJZFLq+4jXm1/Y8ndeNLZLRPaQXXlumMGA0hM9DXW91mqKJvl9jCeZ7/DjaGuKC6ic lI7dQ96iSLBhJd/jraAugzEujR0szbj7/mcec= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.231.15 with SMTP id d15mr3808780anh.77.1244764734825; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:58:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:58:54 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 04a5f1cbc6175379 Message-ID: <30b660a20906111658u1ca25825sc3a533683ba19c9@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016368e1e76d9273c046c1b5fbc Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:58:58 -0000 --0016368e1e76d9273c046c1b5fbc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your reformulation works for me. Mark On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 16:47, Phillips, Addison wrote= : > (editor hat OFF) > > > > That would be an inappropriate MUST, though. You =E2=80=9CMUST scrutinize= =E2=80=9D? > > > > The problem here is as I expressed previously=E2=80=A6 the LSR can reject= these > requests---it is what having an expert reviewer is **for**. But requiring > a rejection of something rejected by ISO 639 is tantamount to saying you > can=E2=80=99t register any such subtags. We might was well take the mecha= nism away > altogether. > > > > I would propose a slight alteration of Alexey=E2=80=99s text to ensure we= do this > right: > > > > -- > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: an attempt to register any new proposed primary language MUS= T > be > > made with ISO 639. Proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are unlikely to > meet the > > criteria for primary language subtags and are thus unlikely to be > registered. > > -- > > > > This gets us both the MUST with ISO 639 and avoids =E2=80=9Cfrowning=E2= =80=9D, =E2=80=9Cthe > community=E2=80=9D, or the Reviewer =E2=80=9Cscrutinizing=E2=80=9D :-). > > > > (editor hat ON) > > > > If I receive support for the above text shortly, I will incorporate it > prior to submission and will indicate that I think I have said support on > this list. > > > > Since it is late in the day, I expect instead that I will incorporate > Alexey=E2=80=99s text. His text I show as having support from at least fi= ve people > (Alexey, Mark, Leif, Randy, myself), with none opposed and only CE Whiteh= ead > proposing different text. > > > > Addison > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf O= f > *Mark Davis > *Sent:* Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:38 PM > *To:* Randy Presuhn > *Cc:* ltru@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with > MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > > > > Me too. I'd be even happier with > > proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > =3D> > proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > JAC MUST be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > The proposal should not try to predict what the LSR will do, it should > explicitly tell the LSR what to do, and that means a MUST. > > Mark > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 14:20, Randy Presuhn < > randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote: > > Hi - > > > From: "Alexey Melnikov" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:58 PM > > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlangua= ge > in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > > > > > I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for this one, as > > this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG > members. > > So let me try to suggest a specific text. > > > > OLD: > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > > > NEW: > > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > > discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > > before they are registered with IANA. > > > > > > I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to do > > is not the point of this issue. > > As a technical contributor... > > As long as the understanding is that we don't need to go back and > wordsmith to cover the cases of indefinite delay, non-response, or > tweaks to the scope of what is covered by the registration in ISO-land, > I'd be OK with Alex's proposed text. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > --0016368e1e76d9273c046c1b5fbc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Your reformulation works for me.

Mark


On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 16:47, Phillips,= Addison <addiso= n@amazon.com> wrote:

(editor hat OF= F)

=C2=A0<= /p>

That would be = an inappropriate MUST, though. You =E2=80=9CMUST scrutinize=E2=80=9D?

=C2=A0<= /p>

The problem he= re is as I expressed previously=E2=80=A6 the LSR can reject these requests---it is what having an expert reviewer is *for= *. But requiring a rejection of something rejected by ISO 639 is tantamount to say= ing you can=E2=80=99t register any such subtags. We might was well take the mec= hanism away altogether.

=C2=A0<= /p>

I would propos= e a slight alteration of Alexey=E2=80=99s text to ensure we do this right:

=C2=A0<= /p>

--

<= div class=3D"im">

At the time th= is document was created, there were no examples of

this kin= d of subtag. Future registrations of this type are

discouraged: a= n attempt to register any new proposed primary language MUST be

made with ISO = 639. Proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are unlikely to meet the

criteria for p= rimary language subtags and are thus unlikely to be registered.

--

=C2=A0<= /p>

This gets us b= oth the MUST with ISO 639 and avoids =E2=80=9Cfrowning=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ct= he community=E2=80=9D, or the Reviewer =E2=80=9Cscrutinizing=E2=80=9D :-).

=C2=A0<= /p>

(editor hat ON= )

=C2=A0<= /p>

If I receive s= upport for the above text shortly, I will incorporate it prior to submission and will indicate that I think I have sa= id support on this list.

=C2=A0<= /p>

Since it is la= te in the day, I expect instead that I will incorporate Alexey=E2=80=99s text. His text I show as having support from a= t least five people (Alexey, Mark, Leif, Randy, myself), with none opposed and only CE Whitehead proposing different text.

=C2=A0<= /p>

Addison=

=C2=A0<= /p>

Addison Phillip= s

Globalization A= rchitect -- Lab126

=C2=A0

Internationaliz= ation is not a feature.

It is an archit= ecture.

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: lt= ru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bou= nces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Davis
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 2:38 PM
To: Randy Presuhn
Cc: ltru@ietf.org=
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

=C2=A0

Me too. I'd be even happier with

proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
before they are registered with IANA.
=3D>
proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
JAC MUST be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
before they are registered with IANA.

The proposal should not try to predict what the LSR will do, it should explicitly tell the LSR what to do, and that means a MUST.

Mark

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 14:20, Randy Presuhn <randy_presuhn@mindspring.com= > wrote:

Hi -

> From: "Alexey Melnikov" <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
> To: <ltru@ietf.o= rg>
> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:58 PM
> Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlangu= age in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a)

>
> I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for th= is one, as
> this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG members.
> So let me try to suggest a specific text.
>
> OLD:
> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of
> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
> discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
> before they are registered with IANA.
>
> NEW:
> At the time this document was created, there were no examples of
> this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are
> discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^= ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
> before they are registered with IANA.
>
>
> I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to d= o
> is not the point of this issue.

As a technical contributor...

As long as the understanding is that we don't need to go back and
wordsmith to cover the cases of indefinite delay, non-response, or
tweaks to the scope of what is covered by the registration in ISO-land,
I'd be OK with Alex's proposed text.

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

=C2=A0


--0016368e1e76d9273c046c1b5fbc-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 11 17:17:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D6E23A6BFE for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.546 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.546 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m78hkOTqCv30 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A615B3A6886 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:17:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=ItXgS0WjvoxNelsk/NrivN0JNkwkijHOfIQjqrXVG1SPOBmQNWD31mH1UXFcf75u; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [68.166.188.167] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MEuT3-0001Lu-W3 for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:18:02 -0400 Message-ID: <001501c9eaf3$4832a180$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com><005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:18:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968b47a247f7c0c914ba4f6f6623d3331f2350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 68.166.188.167 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:17:55 -0000 Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Mark Davis" ; "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:47 PM > Subject: RE: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language withMUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) ... > I would propose a slight alteration of Alexey’s text to ensure we do this right: > > -- > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are > discouraged: an attempt to register any new proposed primary language MUST be > made with ISO 639. Proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are unlikely to meet the > criteria for primary language subtags and are thus unlikely to be registered. > -- As a technical contributor... I could live with this. (Though ironically, the same logic that led our reviewer to object to some "MAY" language would also lead to a rejection of this "MUST", but let's not worry about that!) Randy From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 17:34:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB363A6A83 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:34:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.97 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.97 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.028, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dKVq8a3yRloK for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.83]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2BC593A69D3 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23766 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 00:34:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.83) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 00:34:45 -0000 Message-ID: <804B257E86974B8BAAC88CB234A79F4E@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:34:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 43 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:34:40 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 13:58 Subject: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 43 > If you have received this digest without all the individual message > attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list > subscription. To do so, go to > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get > MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option > globally for all the list digests you receive at this point. > > > > Send Ltru mailing list submissions to > ltru@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ltru-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ltru-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Ltru digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) (Randy Presuhn) > 2. Re: Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) (Phillips, Addison) > 3. Re: Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) (Kent Karlsson) > 4. Re: Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) (Peter Constable) > 5. Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in > 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) (Alexey Melnikov) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:03:58 -0700 > From: "Randy Presuhn" > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Message-ID: <001901c9eac7$60915ae0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi - > > As a technical contributor... > >> From: "Martin J. D?rst" >> To: "Randy Presuhn" >> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:36 AM >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description >> errata(Apps #13) >> >> [co-chair hat on] >> >> Hello Randy, >> >> (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, and >> you >> probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already >> declared that we have consensus that we should improve the wording >> (without changing the substance), because we think that the comment >> was >> based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. >> >> If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, so >> that we can reopen discussion on that part. > > No, there seem to be plenty of people who want to spend time > fine-tuning > the wording, so I think you called the consensus correctly. > >> If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring >> consensus >> on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the remaining >> parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. > > No, although I find it quite a stretch to read this > "misunderstanding" > into the reviewer's comment, which read: > > | Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it is > | trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol option. > >> Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and subissues) >> currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly as >> possible. > ... > > Of course. The substance of my comment is that I find the recently > word-smithed text no better than the original. If we must change it, > I'd prefer something like this, which would also (incidentally) > address > the reviewer's comment: > > The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. > Corrections and clarifications of intent are examples of > possible changes. However, attempts to provide translations > or transcriptions of entries (which by definition provide no > new information) are unlikely to be approved. > > I think the existing statement "as changes of this nature have an > impact on the provisions in Section 3.4" is simply incorrect, and *if* > we're going to open up this paragraph, that text should be stricken. > > Randy > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:13:40 -0700 > From: "Phillips, Addison" > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group > > Message-ID: > <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4702D@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > (editor hat OFF) > > I prefer Randy's text to that in the draft. Any objection to putting > it in place and then submitting the results?? > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:04 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >> Description errata(Apps #13) >> >> Hi - >> >> As a technical contributor... >> >> > From: "Martin J. D?rst" >> > To: "Randy Presuhn" >> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" >> > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:36 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >> Description errata(Apps #13) >> > >> > [co-chair hat on] >> > >> > Hello Randy, >> > >> > (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, >> and you >> > probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already >> > declared that we have consensus that we should improve the >> wording >> > (without changing the substance), because we think that the >> comment was >> > based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. >> > >> > If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, >> so >> > that we can reopen discussion on that part. >> >> No, there seem to be plenty of people who want to spend time fine- >> tuning >> the wording, so I think you called the consensus correctly. >> >> > If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring >> consensus >> > on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the >> remaining >> > parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. >> >> No, although I find it quite a stretch to read this >> "misunderstanding" >> into the reviewer's comment, which read: >> >> | Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it >> is >> | trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol >> option. >> >> > Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and >> subissues) >> > currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly >> as >> > possible. >> ... >> >> Of course. The substance of my comment is that I find the recently >> word-smithed text no better than the original. If we must change >> it, >> I'd prefer something like this, which would also (incidentally) >> address >> the reviewer's comment: >> >> The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. >> Corrections and clarifications of intent are examples of >> possible changes. However, attempts to provide translations >> or transcriptions of entries (which by definition provide no >> new information) are unlikely to be approved. >> >> I think the existing statement "as changes of this nature have an >> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4" is simply incorrect, and >> *if* >> we're going to open up this paragraph, that text should be stricken. >> >> Randy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:23:21 +0200 > From: Kent Karlsson > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > To: "Phillips, Addison" , Randy Presuhn > , LTRU Working Group > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > +1 > > The intent of the MAY, which is omitted in Randy's text, is covered > in section 3.4 point 3. > > /kent k > > > Den 2009-06-11 21.13, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : > >> (editor hat OFF) >> >> I prefer Randy's text to that in the draft. Any objection to putting >> it in >> place and then submitting the results?? >> >> Addison >> >> Addison Phillips >> Globalization Architect -- Lab126 >> >> Internationalization is not a feature. >> It is an architecture. >> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >>> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:04 PM >>> To: LTRU Working Group >>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >>> Description errata(Apps #13) >>> >>> Hi - >>> >>> As a technical contributor... >>> >>>> From: "Martin J. D?rst" >>>> To: "Randy Presuhn" >>>> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" >>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:36 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >>> Description errata(Apps #13) >>>> >>>> [co-chair hat on] >>>> >>>> Hello Randy, >>>> >>>> (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, >>> and you >>>> probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already >>>> declared that we have consensus that we should improve the >>> wording >>>> (without changing the substance), because we think that the >>> comment was >>>> based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. >>>> >>>> If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, >>> so >>>> that we can reopen discussion on that part. >>> >>> No, there seem to be plenty of people who want to spend time fine- >>> tuning >>> the wording, so I think you called the consensus correctly. >>> >>>> If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring >>> consensus >>>> on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the >>> remaining >>>> parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. >>> >>> No, although I find it quite a stretch to read this >>> "misunderstanding" >>> into the reviewer's comment, which read: >>> >>> | Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it >>> is >>> | trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol >>> option. >>> >>>> Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and >>> subissues) >>>> currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly >>> as >>>> possible. >>> ... >>> >>> Of course. The substance of my comment is that I find the recently >>> word-smithed text no better than the original. If we must change >>> it, >>> I'd prefer something like this, which would also (incidentally) >>> address >>> the reviewer's comment: >>> >>> The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. >>> Corrections and clarifications of intent are examples of >>> possible changes. However, attempts to provide translations >>> or transcriptions of entries (which by definition provide no >>> new information) are unlikely to be approved. >>> >>> I think the existing statement "as changes of this nature have an >>> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4" is simply incorrect, and >>> *if* >>> we're going to open up this paragraph, that text should be stricken. >>> >>> Randy >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ltru mailing list >>> Ltru@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing >> list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 12:47:14 -0700 > From: Peter Constable > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > To: "Phillips, Addison" , Randy Presuhn > , LTRU Working Group > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I'm OK with Randy's text. > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf > Of Phillips, Addison > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:14 PM > To: Randy Presuhn; LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description > errata(Apps #13) > > (editor hat OFF) > > I prefer Randy's text to that in the draft. Any objection to putting > it in place and then submitting the results?? > > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On >> Behalf Of Randy Presuhn >> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:04 PM >> To: LTRU Working Group >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >> Description errata(Apps #13) >> >> Hi - >> >> As a technical contributor... >> >> > From: "Martin J. D?rst" >> > To: "Randy Presuhn" >> > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" >> > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 4:36 AM >> > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on >> Description errata(Apps #13) >> > >> > [co-chair hat on] >> > >> > Hello Randy, >> > >> > (I would personally have been fine with keeping the text as is, >> and you >> > probably overlooked that part of my message, but) I have already >> > declared that we have consensus that we should improve the >> wording >> > (without changing the substance), because we think that the >> comment was >> > based (to some extent) on misunderstanding. >> > >> > If you think that I judged that consensus wrongly, please say so, >> so >> > that we can reopen discussion on that part. >> >> No, there seem to be plenty of people who want to spend time fine- >> tuning >> the wording, so I think you called the consensus correctly. >> >> > If you think that moving issue resolution forward by declaring >> consensus >> > on some part of an issue and then continue to resolve the >> remaining >> > parts of the issue is procedurally inappropriate, please say so. >> >> No, although I find it quite a stretch to read this >> "misunderstanding" >> into the reviewer's comment, which read: >> >> | Reason: use of MAY is not an appropriate use of RFC 2119, as it >> is >> | trying to forecast the future and doesn't specify a protocol >> option. >> >> > Otherwise, please help us concentrate on the issues (and >> subissues) >> > currently being discussed, so that we can move forward as quickly >> as >> > possible. >> ... >> >> Of course. The substance of my comment is that I find the recently >> word-smithed text no better than the original. If we must change >> it, >> I'd prefer something like this, which would also (incidentally) >> address >> the reviewer's comment: >> >> The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. >> Corrections and clarifications of intent are examples of >> possible changes. However, attempts to provide translations >> or transcriptions of entries (which by definition provide no >> new information) are unlikely to be approved. >> >> I think the existing statement "as changes of this nature have an >> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4" is simply incorrect, and >> *if* >> we're going to open up this paragraph, that text should be stricken. >> >> Randy >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:58:14 +0100 > From: Alexey Melnikov > Subject: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with > MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) > To: ltru@ietf.org > Message-ID: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I am not entirely happy with the resolution "wantfix" for this one, as > this is a typical case of what can bring a DISCUSS from other IESG > members. > So let me try to suggest a specific text. > > OLD: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: primary languages are strongly RECOMMENDED for > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > registration with ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > NEW: > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of > this kind of subtag and future registrations of this type are > discouraged: an attempt to register a primary language MUST be > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > made to ISO 639, and proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > JAC will be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer > before they are registered with IANA. > > > I.e. the discussion about what the Language Tag Reviewer is going to > do > is not the point of this issue. > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > End of Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 43 > ************************************ > From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 17:43:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1753A6D24 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:43:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.527 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.527 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.418, BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zDDeve7-HWpr for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 40ACC3A6D0D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 27223 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 00:43:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.87) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 00:43:05 -0000 Message-ID: <05D1DF1C12C9445A939A2F0EC6794329@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:43:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 5 X-MSMail-Priority: Low X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: [Ltru] [OT] Apology X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:43:00 -0000 I apologize for re-sending an entire digest back to the list. In Outlook Express, when you click the "Reply" button, the toolbar changes and the "Send" button occupies the same spot on the screen. Guess what happens when you double-click on "Reply"? Sorry again. (Please don't anyone write back telling me to switch mailers or OSes. A switch to Outlook is already on my list.) -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 17:47:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6004928C146 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:47:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.658 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.658 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599, J_CHICKENPOX_31=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yk1n8S6VmBal for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.82]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 42BEF28C12D for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:47:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 16994 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 00:47:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.82) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 00:47:13 -0000 Message-ID: <7546413A1798471CB829E5AC22F6F6A7@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:47:11 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:47:07 -0000 "Phillips, Addison" wrote: > The problem here is as I expressed previously? the LSR can reject > these requests---it is what having an expert reviewer is *for*. But > requiring a rejection of something rejected by ISO 639 is tantamount > to saying you can?t register any such subtags. We might was well take > the mechanism away altogether. I agree, and think we are getting carried away with making sure nothing can ever possibly, imaginably go wrong in corner cases that have never caused any problems for us or ietf-languages before. > I would propose a slight alteration of Alexey?s text to ensure we do > this right: > > -- > At the time this document was created, there were no examples of this > kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are discouraged: an > attempt to register any new proposed primary language MUST be made > with ISO 639. Proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are unlikely to > meet the criteria for primary language subtags and are thus unlikely > to be registered. > -- I am quite happy with Addison's proposed text. It leaves open the possibility of registering these things; to shut the door on them altogether would be a technical change. It gets rid of inappropriate wording (I never liked "frowned upon" either). Let's ship it, please. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 17:49:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9C93A67ED for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:49:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.249 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.249 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.349, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dGfsaW+o2Nqf for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E04B28C155 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 2618 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 00:49:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.85) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 00:49:15 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:49:13 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata (Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:49:32 -0000 "Randy Presuhn" wrote: > The 'Description' field is not guaranteed to be stable. Corrections > and clarifications of intent are examples of possible changes. > However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries > (which by definition provide no new information) are unlikely to be > approved. This is just fine. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 17:52:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7EF43A6A00 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.338, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RlYpaIDPsLcx for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.85]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 048883A67ED for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5595 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 00:52:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.85) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 00:52:23 -0000 Message-ID: <66403295084346FCB7B0125124AEC1C3@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:52:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #62: (AD #14) DoS potential X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:52:17 -0000 "Phillips, Addison" wrote: > In incorporating this fix, I notice a bug. The original DoS text > referred to extension registries (those not controlled by IANA). The > replacement text referred only to the ILSR and registry of extensions. > Therefore I modified the existing sentence when doing the insert so > that all three cases are covered. Good catch. For anyone who is confused by this, "extension registries" and "registry of extensions" are not the same; the latter is essentially an index of the former, none of which exist at present. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From lhs@malform.no Thu Jun 11 19:21:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 108E43A6903 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VubnHKmvbQwS for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407B33A6897 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.110.159.getinternet.no ([84.208.110.159] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MEwOf-0003mw-4g; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:21:37 +0200 Message-ID: <4A31BBB0.2030204@malform.no> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:21:36 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:21:33 -0000 Phillips, Addison On 09-06-12 01.47: > (editor hat OFF) > I would propose a slight alteration of Alexey’s text to ensure > we do this right: > > -- At the time this document was created, there were no > examples of this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this > type are discouraged: an attempt to register any new proposed > primary language MUST be made with ISO 639. Proposals rejected > by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are unlikely to meet the criteria for > primary language subtags and are thus unlikely to be > registered. -- - (minus) This seems redundant and over-explained. If being registered with ISO is close to being a criteria in itself, then saying that those that are rejected by ISO are "unlikely to meet the criteria" undermines that very point. > Since it is late in the day, I expect instead that I will > incorporate Alexey’s text. His text I show as having support > from at least five people (Alexey, Mark, Leif, Randy, myself), > with none opposed and only CE Whitehead proposing different > text. + -- leif halvard silli From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 19:39:50 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BF33A6C32 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:39:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.264 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.264 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.678, BAYES_00=-2.599, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZRB2kZlFaUJW for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.84]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 35E383A6B83 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 19:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 31494 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 02:39:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.84) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 02:39:56 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 20:39:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:39:50 -0000 Leif Halvard Silli wrote: >> -- At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >> this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are >> discouraged: an attempt to register any new proposed primary language >> MUST be made with ISO 639. Proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are >> unlikely to meet the criteria for primary language subtags and are >> thus unlikely to be registered. -- > > - (minus) > > This seems redundant and over-explained. If being registered with ISO > is close to being a criteria in itself, then saying that those that > are rejected by ISO are "unlikely to meet the criteria" undermines > that very point. Disagree. We need all that wording to clarify that "being registered with ISO" is not quite a criterion in itself. It is possible, conceivable, imaginable that a primary language subtag could be registered in the LSR without being accepted for ISO 639 -- it's just very unlikely. Saying that it's not possible at all, or implying that by removing this wording, would be an unwanted technical change. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 11 21:08:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DC43A6C68 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:08:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.479 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.479 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.120, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bkJTMHW+GwUN for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 660633A68A8 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:07:59 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,206,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="231825436" Received: from smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.9.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jun 2009 04:07:54 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-1105.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5C47rwZ004510 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:07:53 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:07:53 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:07:48 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata (Apps #13) Thread-Index: Acnq9636ZqXJr1QwQwyipVHO+sy+9AAG6QIw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A47534@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata (Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:08:00 -0000 KGVkaXRvciBoYXQgT04pDQoNCkkgaGF2ZSBpbmNvcnBvcmF0ZWQgdGhpcyB0ZXh0Lg0KDQpBZGRp c29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0KSW50ZXJu YXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZS4N 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From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "Phillips, Addison" , Mark Davis , Randy Presuhn Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:13:14 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) Thread-Index: Acnq3OJPfhRBuqckTweK469oLSe5ZwAEJOuQAAmgnyA= Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4753A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A3161D6.4010202@isode.com> <005401c9eada$737fdf60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <30b660a20906111437t19e7df1fsa94dac8acfcc9ffc@mail.gmail.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A473D4@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A4753AEXSEA5Dantama_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3B9f4K0plShM for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.domeneshop.no (smtp.domeneshop.no [194.63.248.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDDA13A6774 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cm-84.208.110.159.getinternet.no ([84.208.110.159] helo=s.local) by smtp.domeneshop.no with esmtpa (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MEyBC-0000pN-Cn; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:15:50 +0200 Message-ID: <4A31D675.2000208@malform.no> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:15:49 +0200 From: Leif Halvard Silli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1b1) Gecko/20060724 Thunderbird/2.0a1 Mnenhy/0.7.4.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Ewell References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:15:45 -0000 Doug Ewell On 09-06-12 04.39: > Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > >>> -- At the time this document was created, there were no examples of >>> this kind of subtag. Future registrations of this type are >>> discouraged: an attempt to register any new proposed primary language >>> MUST be made with ISO 639. Proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC are >>> unlikely to meet the criteria for primary language subtags and are >>> thus unlikely to be registered. -- >> >> - (minus) >> >> This seems redundant and over-explained. If being registered with ISO >> is close to being a criteria in itself, then saying that those that >> are rejected by ISO are "unlikely to meet the criteria" undermines >> that very point. > > Disagree. We need all that wording to clarify that "being registered > with ISO" is not quite a criterion in itself. It is possible, > conceivable, imaginable that a primary language subtag could be > registered in the LSR without being accepted for ISO 639 -- it's just > very unlikely. Saying that it's not possible at all, or implying that > by removing this wording, would be an unwanted technical change. Alexey's text makes it clear that one could get registered with IANA without being registered with ISO. I cannot see that Addison's text make that any clearer. I see that you have the independence of the LSR in mind, but I don't get the same message as you from Addison's text. What does "are unlikely to meet the criteria" mean? Does it mean "are not likely _to have met_ the criteria, but we will do an extra check, of course"? In other words: Is ISO acceptance a quality control, only? That is the impression I get from the text. Or is ISO acceptance actually a _qualifying_ factor in itself? (And 'qualifying' is of course not the same as guarantee of registration.) If so, then this is better expressed in Alexey's text, IMHO. But may be I care too much about ISO. If the rest are in favour of this text, then I'll not stand in the way. -- leif halvard silli From root@core3.amsl.com Thu Jun 11 21:30:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 1C5AA3A6BE8; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090612043002.1C5AA3A6BE8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] I-D Action:draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:30:02 -0000 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group of the IETF. Title : Tags for Identifying Languages Author(s) : A. Phillips, M. Davis Filename : draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt Pages : 89 Date : 2009-06-11 This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-06-11212631.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From doug@ewellic.org Thu Jun 11 21:34:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4CB3A6A69 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.348, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YlrjP8xnN76j for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CC00B3A696F for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 21:34:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 7991 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2009 04:34:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.81) with ESMTP; 12 Jun 2009 04:34:45 -0000 Message-ID: <2B27874DEAF14C698A98C4ED44130BD3@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A31D675.2000208@malform.no> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:34:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUST language in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 04:34:39 -0000 Leif Halvard Silli wrote: > What does "are unlikely to meet the criteria" mean? Does it mean "are > not likely _to have met_ the criteria, but we will do an extra check, > of course"? In other words: Is ISO acceptance a quality control, only? The criteria of ISO 639 RA/JAC might not be exactly the same as the criteria of the Reviewer and ietf-languages. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Jun 11 23:53:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1920F3A6C49 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:53:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.703 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.703 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.707, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_24=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UA0UDY8PlF4e for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1453A68E4 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5C6r3wQ010950 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:53:05 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 0590_ad24f390_571d_11de_86f8_001d096c566a; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:53:03 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:43686) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:51:14 +0900 Message-ID: <4A31FB39.1090807@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:52:41 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890657A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89065D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89065D3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:53:12 -0000 (chair/shepherd hat on) On 2009/06/12 2:50, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (editor hat off) > > The word community was already present or I would have replaced it. The formulation ‘frowned upon’ also was already extant and was meant to give a sense of disapproval without actually saying anything normative. Yes indeed. Everybody in the WG had ample time to propose a fix to these words. We are now past WG Last Call and past IETF Last Call. We addressed comments we got from the Area Director (Alex) and an Application Area reviewer. Next, we will have to work on addressing comments from the IESG, if any. If we start fixing our own text again, where there are no comments from the relevant parties, that may be seen as a sign that we think we are not yet done. But I hope nobody wants to go back to WG Last Call. Regards, Martin. P.S.: I hope the RFC Editor will change (which, by definition provide no new information) to (which, by definition, provide no new information) or (which by definition provide no new information) Editors, please put this on your list of things you may want to look at during the AUTH48 stage. > Addison > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > From: Kent Karlsson [mailto:kent.karlsson14@comhem.se] > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 10:45 AM > To: Phillips, Addison; Peter Constable; Mark Davis; Martin J. Dürst > Cc: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) > > > I would suggest deleting "by the community", since that does not seem > to play any essential role in this paragraph, and some (Mark at least, IIRC) > found a reference to the "community" objectionable. Personally, I don't > like the formulation "frowned upon" either, but no-one else has complained... > > > /kent k > > > Den 2009-06-11 19.32, skrev "Phillips, Addison": > -- > The 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable and > MAY be modified via the registration process. Errata > corrections or clarifications of intent are most typical. > Attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries > in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or > rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the > provisions in. > -- -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Fri Jun 12 00:10:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78D3E28C12F for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:10:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.351 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.351 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HgU5EcGjjswR for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA2EB3A6B81 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:10:40 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=kkRQ0Fb6PdHLc49DwbD/DVNV6fHgc82z51051HTC7yJcSzZKQLjBmj+9gPhdcJLb; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [66.167.204.148] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MF0uW-0002Gi-G8 for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:10:48 -0400 Message-ID: <005501c9eb2c$f294dba0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:11:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968e9c057f9cc041b134144bd8fa992f209350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 66.167.204.148 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:10:41 -0000 Hi - fowarded for your information Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; ; > Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:30 PM > Subject: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt > > New version (-23) has been submitted for draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt. > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt > > > Diff from previous version: > http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23 > > IETF Secretariat. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Fri Jun 12 00:29:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61A6228C159 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:29:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.389, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HlqTYpJqPx9h for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411B73A6AAA for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5C7TrI6009182 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:29:53 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 5257_d2375bf0_5722_11de_beef_001d096c566a; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:29:53 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:52139) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:28:03 +0900 Message-ID: <4A3203DB.3010303@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:29:31 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= References: <4A2F8492.9040608@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A89056C3@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A890571A@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906100935i5d6db65ej1252e2932caf022b@mail.gmail.com> <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A307828.7010603@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #61: Problem with MAY in 3.5 on Description errata(Apps #13) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:29:58 -0000 When I wrote issue 43 below, that should have been issue 62, sorry. Issue 43 is closed, I hope to your satisfaction. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/11 12:21, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > [hats on] > > I declare consensus on the fact that we do not want to remove the MAY, > but are considering the clarification of the text. Please help > converging on a version of the text that is clearer than the original, > but doesn't change its meaning. > > [Randy, this doesn't close this issue yet] > > Please say whether you are okay with the new text proposed at the end of > this mail. > > On 2009/06/11 1:35, Mark Davis wrote: >> Although going in the right direction, I don't think it quite hits the >> mark, >> since it is still talking about "the community", which is not defined and >> has no other status in the document. It also gives no sense of who is >> doing >> what. I have suggested language below, plus the other formulations for >> comparison. >> >> Mark: >> >> The Description field MAY be modified, and is thus not guaranteed to be >> stable. However, modifications are discouraged because of the negative >> impact on the provisions in Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry >> Entries). Therefore the Language Subtag Reviewer SHOULD accept only >> modifications for errata corrections or required clarifications of >> intent, >> and SHOULD NOT accept translations or transcriptions of entries in the >> registry. > > This text introduces two new shoulds where we only had a MAY, unrelated > to the comment. This is clearly inappropriate at this stage of the process. > >> OLD >>>> While the 'Description' field itself is not guaranteed to be stable >>>> and errata corrections MAY be undertaken from time to time, attempts >>>> to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the registry >>>> itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or rejected >>>> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions >>>> in Section 3.4. > >> Peter: >> >> The Description field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata >> corrections >> or clarifications of intent might be considered acceptable by the >> community, >> but attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries in the >> registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or >> rejected >> outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the provisions in >> Section 3.4 (Stability of IANA Registry Entries). Note that, since >> modifications are possible, the Description field is not guaranteed to be >> stable. > > I agree with Mark that 'community' isn't well defined. But it was in our > original text, so we can leave it in. However, Peter's text doubles it. > I propose removing the first one. I also re-added the quotes to > 'Description', split a sentence, removed " or clarifications of intent" > (well intended, but not in the original text), and changed the 'might' > to 'are' ("errata might be acceptable" sounds as if some errata are not > acceptable, which I would have difficulties understanding). The new text > I'm proposing is: > > > NEW text: > The 'Description' field MAY be modified. Modifications for errata > corrections or clarifications of intent are considered acceptable. > However, attempts to provide translations or transcriptions of entries > in the registry itself will probably be frowned upon by the community or > rejected outright, as changes of this nature have an impact on the > provisions in Section 3.4. Note that, since modifications are possible, > the Description field is not guaranteed to be stable. > > Please say whether you are okay with the new text or want some > additional changes. If you propose additional changes, please include > your full new text after motivating the changes. If you propose changes, > please try to stay as close as possible to the text and intent of the > original text. > > > Regards, Martin. > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Fri Jun 12 00:31:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E89028C18A for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.131 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.131 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.079, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SPLgwMdVwFEp for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB6A28C170 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5C7VZ7x001651 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:31:35 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 3414_0eaf888c_5723_11de_9104_001d096c5782; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:31:34 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:52140) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:29:45 +0900 Message-ID: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:31:13 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 07:31:29 -0000 Dear WG, As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still open, but I hope we can close them soon. Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Fri Jun 12 02:28:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFE993A690A for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:28:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.364 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.364 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.065, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bAFO+5ZyZjDI for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:28:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC3783A6935 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:28:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.186] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:29:04 +0100 Message-ID: <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:28:27 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:28:57 -0000 Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Dear WG, > > As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. > Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants=20 > to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still=20 > open, but I hope we can close them soon. I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra=20 text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Fri Jun 12 02:48:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAB63A6A70 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:48:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.363 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.363 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.064, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NvvFQQ6grtku for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1AF43A6A69 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.186] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:48:38 +0100 Message-ID: <4A322451.2040702@isode.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:48:01 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:48:32 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > >> Dear WG, >> >> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. > The most important part is not to post -24 before next Thursday (I am=20 hoping we wouldn't need -24 anyway). IESG in general doesn't like when=20 documents in IESG review change during the review period. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Fri Jun 12 03:54:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B5913A6CC0 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:54:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.133 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.133 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.077, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HqDMv+r+swZo for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B8A3A6C86 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 03:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5CAsOt9008150 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:54:24 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 1976_644eeb4a_573f_11de_9ae8_001d096c566a; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:54:24 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:52187) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:52:35 +0900 Message-ID: <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:54:02 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 10:54:29 -0000 Dear WG members, With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to everybody! On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Martin J. Dürst wrote: > >> Dear WG, >> >> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. >> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants >> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still >> open, but I hope we can close them soon. > > I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with how these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll ask Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly improved, or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and of course also if you like the solution), please refrain from commenting.) > Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra > text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently have in -23: To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents change only occasionally. Changes are announced to . Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full registry. And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's request: First part, to go after the mailing list address: This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, not directly from IANA. Second part, goes at the end: At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference. The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as follows: To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents change only occasionally. Changes are announced to . This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, not directly from IANA. Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full registry. At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both the part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled by an RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different from what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker? Regards, Martin. -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From addison@amazon.com Fri Jun 12 08:01:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A1533A68E5 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:01:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.415 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.415 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.116, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bplCJuqkjRoy for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:01:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3813A6891 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:01:54 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,210,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="198924610" Received: from smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com ([10.218.9.29]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 12 Jun 2009 15:02:02 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-5102.iad5.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5CF1xml015266 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Fri, 12 Jun 2009 15:02:01 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.27]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:01:59 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: =?utf-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= , LTRU Working Group Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 08:01:57 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) Thread-Index: AcnrTDi3LMthma/DSYehDHQSgV3zegAIjnqg Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A47750@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) 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IHlvdSBwbGVhc2UgdXBkYXRlIHRoZSB0cmFja2VyPw0KPiANCj4gUmVnYXJkcywgICAgTWFydGlu Lg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IC0tDQo+ICMtIyBNYXJ0aW4gSi4gRMO8cnN0LCBQcm9mZXNzb3IsIEFveWFt YSBHYWt1aW4gVW5pdmVyc2l0eQ0KPiAjLSMgaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zdy5pdC5hb3lhbWEuYWMuanAg ICBtYWlsdG86ZHVlcnN0QGl0LmFveWFtYS5hYy5qcA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBMdHJ1IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBMdHJ1QGll dGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbHRydQ0K From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Fri Jun 12 09:39:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B2F33A693D for ; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:39:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.093 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.093 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.117, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from 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h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=D+wrtJsC0ZiqiwpPs3fvDSBKdLqgSswNxuWDmkKZWQ9MvcKwrToYy4Vol4LlIiAZzw 92vci0T5wE7XXfuExZbenUP1+5G7TYm7valbpVKL717ZHXxqzYBO4eYhLM3z+6cr9Me4 pgCm+wjQrHK6Wh1Y7J7JVcYFlhjK8rytO/lvc= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.227.17 with SMTP id z17mr5089809ang.172.1244824773801; Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:39:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A47750@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A47750@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 09:39:33 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: dbf2e12bdb15ecfb Message-ID: <30b660a20906120939xa2dc08br8645256d8b925f5c@mail.gmail.com> From: Mark Davis To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636af0218739f33046c295ad6 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 16:39:32 -0000 --001636af0218739f33046c295ad6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Mark On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 08:01, Phillips, Addison wrote= : > I am okay with this change. Please note that there should be this one > extremely minor correction to this text: > > --- > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full > --- > > s/, of/of ,/ > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > > Behalf Of "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst" > > Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:54 AM > > To: LTRU Working Group > > Cc: Alexey Melnikov > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) > > > > Dear WG members, > > > > With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another > > important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to > > everybody! > > > > On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > > Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > > > > >> Dear WG, > > >> > > >> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. > > >> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex > > wants > > >> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are > > still > > >> open, but I hope we can close them soon. > > > > > > I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. > > > > This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with > > how > > these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll > > ask > > Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly > > improved, > > or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and > > of > > course also if you like the solution), please refrain from > > commenting.) > > > > > Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the > > extra > > > text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. > > > > For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently have > > in -23: > > > > To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT > > depend > > on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag > > Extensions > > Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > > specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section > > 3.7) > > MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > > mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > > > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full > > registry > > contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. > > For > > others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as > > of a > > particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry > > contents > > change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > > . Changes, or the > > absence > > thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File- > > Date' > > record at the start of the registry, or by using features of > > the > > protocol used for downloading, without having to download the > > full > > registry. > > > > And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's > > request: > > First part, to go after the mailing list address: > > > > This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and > > individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic > > software > > updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic > > software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language > > Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly > > advised to > > distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their > > own > > infrastructure, not directly from IANA. > > > > Second part, goes at the end: > > > > At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the > > Language > > Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a > > local > > copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a > > conditional GET [RFC2616]. > > > > RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference. > > > > The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as > > follows: > > > > To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT > > depend > > on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag > > Extensions > > Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > > specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section > > 3.7) > > MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > > mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > > > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full > > registry > > contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. > > For > > others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as > > of a > > particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry > > contents > > change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > > . This mailing list is > > intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for > > bulk > > subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of > > the > > registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. > > Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag > > Registry in > > an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute > > only > > suitably encoded differences, and only via their own > > infrastructure, > > not directly from IANA. > > > > Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by > > looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, > > or > > by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without > > having to download the full registry. At the time of > > publication of > > this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry > > available > > over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the > > Language > > Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET > > [RFC2616]. > > > > As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both > > the > > part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled > > by an > > RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. > > On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different > > from > > what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker? > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > > > -- > > #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --001636af0218739f33046c295ad6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1

Mark


On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 08:01, Phillips,= Addison <addiso= n@amazon.com> wrote:
I am okay with this change. Please note that there should be this one extre= mely minor correction to this text:

---
frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the ful= l
---

s/, of/of ,/

Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of "Martin J. D=C3=BCrst"
> Sent: Friday, June 12, 2009 3:54 AM
> To: LTRU Working Group
> Cc: Alexey Melnikov
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?)
>
> Dear WG members,
>
> With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another
> important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to
> everybody!
>
> On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> > Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:
> >
> >> Dear WG,
> >>
> >> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23.<= br> > >> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Ale= x
> wants
> >> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 a= re
> still
> >> open, but I hope we can close them soon.
> >
> > I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody.=
>
> This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with
> how
> these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll<= br> > ask
> Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly
> improved,
> or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and
> of
> course also if you like the solution), please refrain from
> commenting.)
>
> > Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the > extra
> > text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note.
>
> For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently h= ave
> in -23:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOUL= D NOT
> depend
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language T= ag
> Extensions
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Registry being always accessible. =C2=A0Additionally, al= though the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Sec= tion
> 3.7)
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHO= ULD NOT
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanically depend on those sources being always access= ible.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The registries specified in this document are not suitab= le for
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the fu= ll
> registry
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 contents. =C2=A0Most applications do not need registry d= ata at all.
> For
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 others, being able to validate or canonicalize language = tags as
> of a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 particular registry date will be sufficient, as the regi= stry
> contents
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 change only occasionally. =C2=A0Changes are announced to=
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. =C2=A0Changes, or the > absence
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the &= #39;File-
> Date'
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 record at the start of the registry, or by using feature= s of
> the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol used for downloading, without having to downloa= d the
> full
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 registry.
>
> And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's
> request:
> First part, to go after the mailing list address:
>
> This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and
> individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic
> software
> updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic > software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language > Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly
> advised to
> distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their
> own
> infrastructure, not directly from IANA.
>
> Second part, goes at the end:
>
> At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the
> Language
> Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a
> local
> copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a
> conditional GET [RFC2616].
>
> RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference.
>
> The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as > follows:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOUL= D NOT
> depend
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language T= ag
> Extensions
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Registry being always accessible. =C2=A0Additionally, al= though the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Sec= tion
> 3.7)
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHO= ULD NOT
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mechanically depend on those sources being always access= ible.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The registries specified in this document are not suitab= le for
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the fu= ll
> registry
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 contents. =C2=A0Most applications do not need registry d= ata at all.
> For
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 others, being able to validate or canonicalize language = tags as
> of a
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 particular registry date will be sufficient, as the regi= stry
> contents
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 change only occasionally. =C2=A0Changes are announced to=
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <ietf-languages-announcements@iana.org>. This mailing list is > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 intended for interested organizations and individuals, n= ot for
> bulk
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The = size of
> the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software upda= tes.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag=
> Registry in
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to dis= tribute
> only
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 suitably encoded differences, and only via their own
> infrastructure,
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 not directly from IANA.
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be dete= cted by
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start o= f the registry,
> or
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 by using features of the protocol used for downloading, = without
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 having to download the full registry. At the time of
> publication of
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry > available
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of = the
> Language
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional G= ET
> [RFC2616].
>
> As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both > the
> part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled=
> by an
> RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. > On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different
> from
> what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker?
>
> Regards, =C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.
>
>
> --
> #-# Martin J. D=C3=BCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University
> #-# http:/= /www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp =C2=A0 mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--001636af0218739f33046c295ad6-- From petercon@microsoft.com Sat Jun 13 07:45:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC813A68C5 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:45:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.514 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.514 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.084, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VZXoCBd7wpKz for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail1.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E98103A6BB9 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.96) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:45:23 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-exhub-c103.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.96]) with mapi; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:45:23 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Mark Davis , "Phillips, Addison" Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 07:45:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) Thread-Index: AcnrfIeCISM0g+f9RuG1KbbumhVQNgAuQnAA Message-ID: References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A8A47750@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906120939xa2dc08br8645256d8b925f5c@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906120939xa2dc08br8645256d8b925f5c@mail.gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D61D3FNAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) 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--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B06D61D3FNAEXMSGC117re_-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Sat Jun 13 09:30:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA4B3A63EC for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:30:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.934 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.934 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.258, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17yyHi5RgayQ for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.247]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408153A6A91 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c3so1373152ana.4 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:30:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=AWOEsWbKkkbc8+YG7FK0XYLWUlzNzKKDQVukpllvx2w=; b=m0PJBWRxdR75/Wmrsi4NZDlOLtsSmez/PylnJ1hb78CTT5elelDhb25z2XWjOuAnBS QbjHQzT/j9+xCAW3HwzmIGYMlU4Bocfr3FhNxUYUqWpFQVtNN4SlBBGG3GpkOpurFFeT UmUoJhlnyDRmogLlpziXbqd9LzUMQsxRbrw5I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=dD7rKBD3XBC98H5TwfXVVgZib4ViGeehXz8lyBdGxu3C6naV7qWCkHGEQTpyWgaKbs KJBO9InLK8Ka48rMLJYkeZSYhd6YXQO+7ZAQ9o3Nlcyqq2Ev9VjLspVYIEnh6XJktyuD b86ZH9G0LzwnASJ43p/CWNt+UOOK2TH0RlfsE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.45.13 with SMTP id s13mr6481598ans.193.1244910621181; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:30:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 09:30:21 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: af3e5a488d9d36e1 Message-ID: <30b660a20906130930t5405bfe3wc8f7ea356d3260db@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Alexey Melnikov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64548c05a47fc046c3d5723 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:30:15 -0000 --0016e64548c05a47fc046c3d5723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see only those 3 open issues. http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/report/1 It sounds like you are happy with the disposition, and that any changes "ca= n be done as an RFC Editor note" based on the consensus here. So it sounds like we are in pretty good shape, right? Mark On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 02:28, Alexey Melnikov w= rote: > Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote: > > Dear WG, >> >> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. >> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants to >> proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still open,= but >> I hope we can close them soon. >> > > I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. > > Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra text > you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016e64548c05a47fc046c3d5723 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see only those 3 open issues.

http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/report/1

It sounds like you are happy with the disposition, and that any c= hanges "can be done as an RFC Editor note" based on the consensus= here. So it sounds like we are in pretty good shape, right?

Mark


On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 02:28, Alexey Me= lnikov <a= lexey.melnikov@isode.com> wrote:
Martin J. D=C3=BCrst wrote:

Dear WG,

As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23.
Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants to pro= ceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still open, but I= hope we can close them soon.

I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody.

Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra text y= ou suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note.


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016e64548c05a47fc046c3d5723-- From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Sat Jun 13 10:38:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FC413A6BDD for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.362 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.362 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.063, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QJCSGlD+KpP4 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 783143A68E2 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 10:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.109] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:38:26 +0100 Message-ID: <4A33E3E6.2040400@isode.com> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:37:42 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> <30b660a20906130930t5405bfe3wc8f7ea356d3260db@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906130930t5405bfe3wc8f7ea356d3260db@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:38:22 -0000 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B wrote: > I see only those 3 open issues. > > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/ltru/trac/report/1 > > It sounds like you are happy with the disposition, and that any=20 > changes "can be done as an RFC Editor note" based on the consensus=20 > here. So it sounds like we are in pretty good shape, right? Yes. From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 16 01:02:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B96F3A6BEC for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.134 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.134 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.076, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kf9TG0JfcxPF for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143963A6957 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5G81udE006448 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:01:56 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 19af_f5d2b9d4_5a4b_11de_9e88_001d096c5782; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:01:56 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:51238) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:00:03 +0900 Message-ID: <4A375158.5050700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 17:01:28 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LTRU Working Group References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com> <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:02:10 -0000 I haven't received any mails disagreeing with these issues, so I would like to ask Randy to close issues 59, 61, and 63 with the resolutions in draft -23, and to change issue 62 to a resolution of adding new text as below, with the change of frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry to frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval of, the full registry Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/12 19:54, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Dear WG members, > > With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another > important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to everybody! > > On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> Martin J. Dürst wrote: >> >>> Dear WG, >>> >>> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. >>> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants >>> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still >>> open, but I hope we can close them soon. >> >> I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. > > This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with how > these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll ask > Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly improved, > or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and of > course also if you like the solution), please refrain from commenting.) > >> Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra >> text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. > > For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently have in -23: > > To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend > on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions > Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) > MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For > others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents > change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > . Changes, or the absence > thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' > record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the > protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full > registry. > > And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's request: > First part, to go after the mailing list address: > > This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and > individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software > updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic > software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language > Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to > distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own > infrastructure, not directly from IANA. > > Second part, goes at the end: > > At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language > Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local > copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a > conditional GET [RFC2616]. > > RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference. > > The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as > follows: > > To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend > on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions > Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) > MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For > others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents > change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > . This mailing list is > intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk > subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the > registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. > Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in > an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only > suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, > not directly from IANA. > > Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by > looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or > by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without > having to download the full registry. At the time of publication of > this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available > over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language > Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. > > As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both the > part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled by an > RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. > On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different from > what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker? > > Regards, Martin. > > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From cewcathar@hotmail.com Tue Jun 16 08:41:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67063A6BD0 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:41:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.400, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQy70ZuSaRtZ for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s12.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s12.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.87]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F16D33A6804 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W24 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s12.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 16 Jun 2009 08:38:44 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_659396b5-e8af-4aee-90ed-c3dfc099f83c_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.191.67] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:38:44 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Jun 2009 15:38:44.0819 (UTC) FILETIME=[886F1230:01C9EE98] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Issue #59: replace RECOMMENDED language with MUSTlanguage in 2.2.1 (Apps #12a) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:41:42 -0000 --_659396b5-e8af-4aee-90ed-c3dfc099f83c_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi!=20 =20 +1 for Martin Duerst's decision to close Issue #59-- although I liked both Mark's and Debbie's suggestions. =20 (For your reference=2C Mark suggested: "proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA- JAC MUST be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer before they are registered with IANA" =20 Debbie suggested that anyone wishing to register a subtag not registered wi= th ISO 639 supply evidence that he/she attempted first to register the subt= ag with ISO 639. =20 However I am happy with the current text [which is essentially requiring wh= at Debbie says should be required=2C although it does not spell out that re= questors of language subtags must produce evidence of attempted registratio= n=3B I assume that that goes unsaid].) =20 I tried to find previous discussion of ISO-639 and its relationship to the = registry. =20 There was little--I found one comment by Randy in a 2008 thread=3B see: =20 http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ltru/current/msg11861.html Here is Randy's comment: "As co-chair: Generating substantial updates to 639-5 would have gone well beyond the scope of the ltru working group. Randy" =20 In general there seems to have been consensus for going to ISO 639 first wi= th a request for a language subtag. =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com =20 --_659396b5-e8af-4aee-90ed-c3dfc099f83c_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! =3B
 =3B
+1 for =3BMartin Duerst's decision to close Issue #59--
although I liked both Mark's and Debbie's suggestions.
 =3B
(For = your reference=2C Mark suggested:
"proposals rejected by ISO 639/ RA-JAC MUST be closely scrutinized by the Language Subtag Reviewer
before = they are registered with IANA"
 =3B
Debbie suggested that anyone = wishing to register a subtag not registered with ISO 639 supply evidence th= at he/she attempted first to register the subtag with ISO 639.
 =3B<= BR>However I am happy with the current text [which is essentially requiring= what Debbie says should be required=2C although it does not spell out = =3Bthat requestors of language subtags must =3Bproduce evidence of atte= mpted registration=3B I assume that that goes unsaid].)
 =3B
I tr= ied to find previous discussion of ISO-639 and its relationship to the regi= stry.
 =3B
There was little--I found one =3Bcomment by Randy = in a 2008 thread=3B see:
 =3B
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w= eb/ltru/current/msg11861.html
Here is Randy's comment:

"As co-chair:
Generating substantial updates to 639-5 would have gon= e well beyond the
scope of the ltru working group.
Randy"
 =3B=
In general there seems to have been consensus for going to ISO 639 firs= t with a =3Brequest for a language subtag.
 =3B
Best=2C
&n= bsp=3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewca= thar@hotmail.com
 =3B


= --_659396b5-e8af-4aee-90ed-c3dfc099f83c_-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 16 11:22:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0F533A6D12 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:22:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z7O6RD0SsW3c for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA0483A6A91 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:22:11 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=l81TP4s571en7uJwYMiszoXrdJ1/IU7wLOGR/Q8XzhA0xlvy6ES02b0RjH+7CUVp; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.53.210] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MGdIb-0001fy-Ta; Tue, 16 Jun 2009 14:22:22 -0400 Message-ID: <007c01c9eeaf$71c82780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Martin_J._D=FCrst?= , "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com><4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A375158.5050700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:22:43 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69680d17b85bac97f52581fe5ceb4140a3cd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.53.210 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:22:13 -0000 Hi - Done. At this time, there are no open issues in the issue tracker. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin J. Dürst" To: "LTRU Working Group" Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) I haven't received any mails disagreeing with these issues, so I would like to ask Randy to close issues 59, 61, and 63 with the resolutions in draft -23, and to change issue 62 to a resolution of adding new text as below, with the change of frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry to frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval of, the full registry Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/12 19:54, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > Dear WG members, > > With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another > important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to everybody! > > On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >> Martin J. Dürst wrote: >> >>> Dear WG, >>> >>> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. >>> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants >>> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still >>> open, but I hope we can close them soon. >> >> I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. > > This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with how > these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll ask > Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly improved, > or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and of > course also if you like the solution), please refrain from commenting.) > >> Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra >> text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. > > For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently have in -23: > > To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend > on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions > Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) > MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For > others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents > change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > . Changes, or the absence > thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' > record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the > protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full > registry. > > And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's request: > First part, to go after the mailing list address: > > This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and > individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software > updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic > software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language > Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to > distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own > infrastructure, not directly from IANA. > > Second part, goes at the end: > > At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language > Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local > copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a > conditional GET [RFC2616]. > > RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference. > > The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as > follows: > > To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend > on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions > Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) > MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > > The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For > others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents > change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > . This mailing list is > intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk > subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the > registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. > Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in > an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only > suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, > not directly from IANA. > > Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by > looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or > by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without > having to download the full registry. At the time of publication of > this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available > over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language > Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. > > As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both the > part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled by an > RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. > On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different from > what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker? > > Regards, Martin. > > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Wed Jun 17 01:09:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1893A6DE2 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:09:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.025 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.025 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.185, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xIKn355XzrLO for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:09:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.42]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DB063A69FA for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 01:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.158]) by scmailgw02.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5H89mZk013638 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:09:48 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse01.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 7b39_396e4530_5b16_11de_ab7b_001d096c566a; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:09:47 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:52241) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:07:54 +0900 Message-ID: <4A38A4AD.1000100@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:09:17 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com><4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A375158.5050700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <007c01c9eeaf$71c82780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <007c01c9eeaf$71c82780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: Alexey Melnikov , LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:09:55 -0000 Hello Randy, Checking issue 62, it seems that the addition of a fair bit of text not yet in the current draft (-23) is missing in the resolution in the tracker. That text is still included in this mail, at the very bottom. (I checked for this looking for the word 'conditional'). Can you please update issue 62 accordingly, to reflect what I judged is the consensus of the group (and also what Alex wants :-). Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/17 3:22, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > Done. At this time, there are no open issues in the > issue tracker. > > Randy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "LTRU Working Group" > Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) > > > I haven't received any mails disagreeing with these issues, so I would > like to ask Randy to close issues 59, 61, and 63 with the resolutions in > draft -23, and to change issue 62 to a resolution of adding new text as > below, with the change of > > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > > to > > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval of, the full registry > > Regards, Martin. > > On 2009/06/12 19:54, Martin J. Dürst wrote: >> Dear WG members, >> >> With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another >> important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to everybody! >> >> On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote: >>> Martin J. Dürst wrote: >>> >>>> Dear WG, >>>> >>>> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. >>>> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants >>>> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still >>>> open, but I hope we can close them soon. >>> I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. >> This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with how >> these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll ask >> Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly improved, >> or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and of >> course also if you like the solution), please refrain from commenting.) >> >>> Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra >>> text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. >> For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently have in -23: >> >> To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend >> on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions >> Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the >> specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) >> MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT >> mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. >> >> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for >> frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry >> contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For >> others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a >> particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents >> change only occasionally. Changes are announced to >> . Changes, or the absence >> thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' >> record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the >> protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full >> registry. >> >> And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's request: >> First part, to go after the mailing list address: >> >> This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and >> individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software >> updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic >> software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language >> Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to >> distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own >> infrastructure, not directly from IANA. >> >> Second part, goes at the end: >> >> At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language >> Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local >> copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a >> conditional GET [RFC2616]. >> >> RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference. >> >> The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as >> follows: >> >> To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend >> on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions >> Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the >> specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) >> MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT >> mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. >> >> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for >> frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry >> contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For >> others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a >> particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents >> change only occasionally. Changes are announced to >> . This mailing list is >> intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk >> subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the >> registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. >> Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in >> an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only >> suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, >> not directly from IANA. >> >> Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by >> looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or >> by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without >> having to download the full registry. At the time of publication of >> this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available >> over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language >> Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. >> >> As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both the >> part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled by an >> RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. >> On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different from >> what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker? >> >> Regards, Martin. >> >> > -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 17 10:12:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD2513A68B5 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:12:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aGrBQmiGBuN4 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.70]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3971E3A6876 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:12:18 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=fOoMKXwafH8Kw51qFAnDazOoLBFWNv9QQfyk1FJu2Hcw90jcxlWMsMvi2JrK8Yzf; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Cc:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MIMEOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.55.238] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-banded.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MGyXO-00081k-AS; Wed, 17 Jun 2009 13:03:02 -0400 Message-ID: <009301c9ef6d$8a2f5000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com><4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A375158.5050700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <007c01c9eeaf$71c82780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A38A4AD.1000100@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 10:03:29 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696840f82f9558e382ca04d71a34d9a955aa350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.55.238 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:12:21 -0000 Hi - Ok, I copied the block of text from the end of the message into the tracker. Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > To: "Randy Presuhn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" ; "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 1:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) > > Hello Randy, > > Checking issue 62, it seems that the addition of a fair bit of text not > yet in the current draft (-23) is missing in the resolution in the > tracker. That text is still included in this mail, at the very bottom. > > (I checked for this looking for the word 'conditional'). > > Can you please update issue 62 accordingly, to reflect what I judged is > the consensus of the group (and also what Alex wants :-). > > Regards, Martin. > > On 2009/06/17 3:22, Randy Presuhn wrote: > > Hi - > > > > Done. At this time, there are no open issues in the > > issue tracker. > > > > Randy > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Martin J. Dürst" > > To: "LTRU Working Group" > > Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 1:01 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) > > > > > > I haven't received any mails disagreeing with these issues, so I would > > like to ask Randy to close issues 59, 61, and 63 with the resolutions in > > draft -23, and to change issue 62 to a resolution of adding new text as > > below, with the change of > > > > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > > > > to > > > > frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval of, the full registry > > > > Regards, Martin. > > > > On 2009/06/12 19:54, Martin J. Dürst wrote: > >> Dear WG members, > >> > >> With draft -23 going to the IESG telechat, we have reached another > >> important milestone in the long jurney of this WG. Thanks to everybody! > >> > >> On 2009/06/12 18:28, Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >>> Martin J. Dürst wrote: > >>> > >>>> Dear WG, > >>>> > >>>> As you can see, we have a new version of 4646bis, number 23. > >>>> Please refrain from any comments until I know exactly how Alex wants > >>>> to proceed from here. In the tracker, issues 59, 61, and 63 are still > >>>> open, but I hope we can close them soon. > >>> I like resolution for issues 59, 61, and 63. Thanks to everybody. > >> This is great news. If anybody from the WG strongly disagrees with how > >> these issues were resolved, please speak up soon. Otherwise, I'll ask > >> Randy to close them. (If you think the wording can be slightly improved, > >> or if you just okay or just can live with the solution taken (and of > >> course also if you like the solution), please refrain from commenting.) > >> > >>> Text for 62 in -23 is a big improvement, but I like to add the extra > >>> text you suggested. This can be done as an RFC Editor note. > >> For everybody's reference, here's the text that we currently have in -23: > >> > >> To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend > >> on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions > >> Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > >> specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) > >> MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > >> mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > >> > >> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > >> frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > >> contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For > >> others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > >> particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents > >> change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > >> . Changes, or the absence > >> thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' > >> record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the > >> protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full > >> registry. > >> > >> And here is the text I proposed to add, in response to Alex's request: > >> First part, to go after the mailing list address: > >> > >> This mailing list is intended for interested organizations and > >> individuals, not for bulk subscription to trigger automatic software > >> updates. The size of the registry makes it unsuitable for automatic > >> software updates. Implementers considering integrating the Language > >> Subtag Registry in an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to > >> distribute only suitably encoded differences, and only via their own > >> infrastructure, not directly from IANA. > >> > >> Second part, goes at the end: > >> > >> At the time of publication of this document IANA is making the Language > >> Tag registry available over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local > >> copy of the Language Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a > >> conditional GET [RFC2616]. > >> > >> RFC 2616 will have to be added as a reference. > >> > >> The overall text (with an additional paragraph break) would look as > >> follows: > >> > >> To prevent denial-of-service attacks, applications SHOULD NOT depend > >> on either the Language Subtag Registry or the Language Tag Extensions > >> Registry being always accessible. Additionally, although the > >> specification of valid subtags for an extension (see Section 3.7) > >> MUST be available over the Internet, implementations SHOULD NOT > >> mechanically depend on those sources being always accessible. > >> > >> The registries specified in this document are not suitable for > >> frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry > >> contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For > >> others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a > >> particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents > >> change only occasionally. Changes are announced to > >> . This mailing list is > >> intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk > >> subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the > >> registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. > >> Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in > >> an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only > >> suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, > >> not directly from IANA. > >> > >> Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by > >> looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or > >> by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without > >> having to download the full registry. At the time of publication of > >> this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available > >> over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language > >> Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. > >> > >> As above, please speak up if you can't live with this text (both the > >> part that's already in and the new additions which will be handled by an > >> RFC Editor's note), but otherwise, please refrain from posting. > >> On this issue, the current resolution in the tracker is different from > >> what we have in -23. Randy, can you please update the tracker? > >> > >> Regards, Martin. > >> > >> > > > > -- > #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University > #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 18 04:01:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C61528C0ED for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:01:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.508 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.508 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.091, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ifkIhZ7x1frE for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7613328C2FE for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.158] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:02:09 +0100 Message-ID: <4A3A1E89.2020205@isode.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:01:29 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Randy Presuhn References: <4A320441.5050209@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A321FBB.4030900@isode.com><4A3233CA.1090005@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <4A375158.5050700@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <007c01c9eeaf$71c82780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A38A4AD.1000100@it.aoyama.ac.jp> <009301c9ef6d$8a2f5000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <009301c9ef6d$8a2f5000$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Remaining issues (59, 61, 63, 62?) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:01:58 -0000 Randy Presuhn wrote: >Hi - > >Ok, I copied the block of text from the end of the message into the >tracker. > > I've entered the new text as an RFC Editor note. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 18 04:04:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C4D28C300 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:04:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.089, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vF0HTwYLRqEK for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27DA28C306 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 04:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.158] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:04:00 +0100 Message-ID: <4A3A1EF9.50407@isode.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:03:21 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: LTRU Working Group MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------000402020803090207050909" Subject: [Ltru] [Fwd: Lisa's comments on 4646bis] X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:04:06 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000402020803090207050909 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI. --------------000402020803090207050909 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="Lisa's comments on 4646bis" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Lisa's comments on 4646bis" Return-Path: Received: from rufus.isode.com ([62.3.217.251]) by canine (Isode M-Box/14.5a0) with LMTP; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:35:28 +0100 (BST) Received: from [172.16.2.158] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:35:27 +0100 Message-ID: <4A3A1844.20404@isode.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 11:34:44 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: Lisa Dusseault CC: Randy Presuhn , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Marti?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?n_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= , Addison Phillips , Mark Davis Subject: Lisa's comments on 4646bis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Lisa, I found your comments in the IDtracker: > The reference to 2028 isn't normative. That reference merely describes > the IESG. Agreed. I've added an RFC Editor note asking to move it. > The reference to 2026 is normative because the process defined here > builds on a process > defined in 2026. Agreed. It is already normative, so nothing needs to be done. > The reference to 2277 isn't normative. It's documentation of how a > decision was made, > not required "to implement" or even to understand langtags. RFC 2277 is referenced when talking about "i-default": 7. The grandfathered tag "i-default" (Default Language) was originally registered according to [RFC1766] to meet the needs of [RFC2277]. I agree this part is informative. It is used to indicate not a specific language, but rather, it identifies the condition or content used where the language preferences of the user cannot be established. It SHOULD NOT be used except as a means of labeling the default content for applications or protocols that require default language content to be labeled with that specific tag. It MAY also be used by an application or protocol to identify when the default language content is being returned. This seems fairly normative to me. Opinions? I do wonder now if 4646bis is actually updating section 4.5 of RFC 2277. --------------000402020803090207050909-- From addison@amazon.com Thu Jun 18 08:04:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82B1928C37B for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:04:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.559 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.559 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3vCJe3NcFJGN for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-4101.amazon.com [72.21.198.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CB528C14F for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:04:29 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,245,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="201367854" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-4101.iad4.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 18 Jun 2009 15:04:40 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5IF4PaH022392 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:04:26 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:04:26 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Alexey Melnikov Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:04:24 -0700 Thread-Topic: Lisa's comments on 4646bis Thread-Index: AcnwBIt+KYf7DS8ETSekdh2N1/eCDQAIIEVQ Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A9D8CFD7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: =?utf-8?B?TWFydGluIETDvHJzdA==?= , LTRU Working Group Subject: [Ltru] FW: Lisa's comments on 4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:04:30 -0000 SGksDQoNClNvbWUgY29tbWVudHMgb24gTGlzYSdzLCBwcmVmaXhlZCB3aXRoIEFQPg0KDQotLS0N Cj4gVGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSB0byAyMjc3IGlzbid0IG5vcm1hdGl2ZS4gIEl0J3MgZG9jdW1lbnRh dGlvbiBvZiBob3cgYSANCj4gZGVjaXNpb24gd2FzIG1hZGUsIG5vdCByZXF1aXJlZCAidG8gaW1w bGVtZW50IiBvciBldmVuIHRvIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgbGFuZ3RhZ3MuDQoNClJGQyAyMjc3IGlzIHJl ZmVyZW5jZWQgd2hlbiB0YWxraW5nIGFib3V0ICJpLWRlZmF1bHQiOg0KDQogICA3LiAgVGhlIGdy YW5kZmF0aGVyZWQgdGFnICJpLWRlZmF1bHQiIChEZWZhdWx0IExhbmd1YWdlKSB3YXMNCiAgICAg ICBvcmlnaW5hbGx5IHJlZ2lzdGVyZWQgYWNjb3JkaW5nIHRvIFtSRkMxNzY2XSB0byBtZWV0IHRo ZSBuZWVkcyBvZg0KICAgICAgIFtSRkMyMjc3XS4NCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGlzIHBhcnQgaXMgaW5m b3JtYXRpdmUuDQoNCiAgICAgICBJdCBpcyB1c2VkIHRvIGluZGljYXRlIG5vdCBhIHNwZWNpZmlj IGxhbmd1YWdlLCBidXQNCiAgICAgICByYXRoZXIsIGl0IGlkZW50aWZpZXMgdGhlIGNvbmRpdGlv biBvciBjb250ZW50IHVzZWQgd2hlcmUgdGhlDQogICAgICAgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgcHJlZmVyZW5jZXMg b2YgdGhlIHVzZXIgY2Fubm90IGJlIGVzdGFibGlzaGVkLiAgSXQNCiAgICAgICBTSE9VTEQgTk9U IGJlIHVzZWQgZXhjZXB0IGFzIGEgbWVhbnMgb2YgbGFiZWxpbmcgdGhlIGRlZmF1bHQNCiAgICAg ICBjb250ZW50IGZvciBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgb3IgcHJvdG9jb2xzIHRoYXQgcmVxdWlyZSBkZWZh dWx0DQogICAgICAgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgY29udGVudCB0byBiZSBsYWJlbGVkIHdpdGggdGhhdCBzcGVj aWZpYyB0YWcuICBJdCBNQVkNCiAgICAgICBhbHNvIGJlIHVzZWQgYnkgYW4gYXBwbGljYXRpb24g b3IgcHJvdG9jb2wgdG8gaWRlbnRpZnkgd2hlbiB0aGUNCiAgICAgICBkZWZhdWx0IGxhbmd1YWdl IGNvbnRlbnQgaXMgYmVpbmcgcmV0dXJuZWQuDQoNClRoaXMgc2VlbXMgZmFpcmx5IG5vcm1hdGl2 ZSB0byBtZS4gT3BpbmlvbnM/DQoNCkFQPiBUaGlzIHRleHQgaXMgbm9ybWF0aXZlLCBidXQgaXQg ZG9lc24ndCBhcHBseSB0byBSRkMgMjI3Nywgc2luY2UgMjI3NyB3b3VsZCBmYWxsIHVuZGVyIHRo ZSBydWJyaWMgb2YgYW4gImFwcGxpY2F0aW9uIG9yIHByb3RvY29sIHRoYXQgcmVxdWlyZXMgZGVm YXVsdCBsYW5ndWFnZSBjb250ZW50IHRvIGJlIGxhYmVsZWQgd2l0aCB0aGF0IHNwZWNpZmljIHRh ZyIuIFRoaXMgbm9ybWF0aXZlIGxhbmd1YWdlIGlzIHN1cHBsaWVkIGZvciB1c2VycyBvZiBsYW5n dWFnZSB0YWdzLCBzbyB0aGF0IHRoZXkga25vdyB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiB0aGUgdmVyeSBzcGVj aWFsaXplZCB0YWcgImktZGVmYXVsdCItLS10aGF0IGl0cyB1c2UgaXMgdXN1YWxseSByZXN0cmlj dGVkIHRvIHRob3NlIGNhc2VzIHdoZXJlIGl0IGlzIG9ibGlnYXRvcnkgKG1lYW5pbmcgUkZDIDIy NzcpLg0KDQpJIGRvIHdvbmRlciBub3cgaWYgNDY0NmJpcyBpcyBhY3R1YWxseSB1cGRhdGluZyBz ZWN0aW9uIDQuNSBvZiBSRkMgMjI3Ny4NCg0KQVA+IE5vLCBJIGRvbid0IHRoaW5rIHdlIGFyZS4g SG1tLi4uIGlmIHdlIGFyZSB1cGRhdGluZyBzb21ldGhpbmcgbm90IHJlZmVyZW5jZWQgaW4gdGhl IGRvY3VtZW50LCBpdCB3b3VsZCBiZSBIVFRQIDEuMSwgU2VjdGlvbiAxNC40Lg0KLS0tDQoNCkFk ZGlzb24NCg0KQWRkaXNvbiBQaGlsbGlwcw0KR2xvYmFsaXphdGlvbiBBcmNoaXRlY3QgLS0gTGFi MTI2DQoNCkludGVybmF0aW9uYWxpemF0aW9uIGlzIG5vdCBhIGZlYXR1cmUuDQpJdCBpcyBhbiBh cmNoaXRlY3R1cmUuDQoNCg0KDQoNCg== From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 18 08:26:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 638D228C31A for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.516 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.516 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.083, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sOaiMW25-IY5 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A7CF28C3BE for ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.158] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:26:44 +0100 Message-ID: <4A3A5C7E.1000405@isode.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:25:50 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: "Phillips, Addison" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A9D8CFD7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01A9D8CFD7@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: LTRU Working Group , Lisa Dusseault Subject: Re: [Ltru] FW: Lisa's comments on 4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:26:34 -0000 Phillips, Addison wrote: >Hi, > >Some comments on Lisa's, prefixed with AP> > >--- > > >>The reference to 2277 isn't normative. It's documentation of how a >>decision was made, not required "to implement" or even to understand langtags. >> >> > >RFC 2277 is referenced when talking about "i-default": > > 7. The grandfathered tag "i-default" (Default Language) was > originally registered according to [RFC1766] to meet the needs of > [RFC2277]. > >I agree this part is informative. > > It is used to indicate not a specific language, but > rather, it identifies the condition or content used where the > language preferences of the user cannot be established. It > SHOULD NOT be used except as a means of labeling the default > content for applications or protocols that require default > language content to be labeled with that specific tag. It MAY > also be used by an application or protocol to identify when the > default language content is being returned. > >This seems fairly normative to me. Opinions? > >AP> This text is normative, but it doesn't apply to RFC 2277, since 2277 would fall under the rubric of an "application or protocol that requires default language content to be labeled with that specific tag". This normative language is supplied for users of language tags, so that they know the purpose of the very specialized tag "i-default"---that its use is usually restricted to those cases where it is obligatory (meaning RFC 2277). > > Ok. >I do wonder now if 4646bis is actually updating section 4.5 of RFC 2277. > >AP> No, I don't think we are. > Ok. >Hmm... if we are updating something not referenced in the document, it would be HTTP 1.1, Section 14.4. > > I don't thinks so, Accept-Language is mentioned informatively in RFC 4647. Besides HTTPBIS is already working on an update to RFC 2616. From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Fri Jun 19 03:27:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD0CE28C0F3 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:27:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R+B2D9A1iCij for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960EB3A69CC for ; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:27:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.156] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:27:32 +0100 Message-ID: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:26:51 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: ltru@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Status of 4645bis and 4646bis X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:27:23 -0000 Hi, A bit of good news: both documents were approved for publication by IESG yesterday. 4645bis doesn't require any changes and the announcement would be sent out around Monday-Tuesday next week. For 4646bis, there is one extra change (addition) that needs to be done to the document - some text about applicability statement, i.e. for which purposes the IANA registry can and can't be used, what it wasn't designed for. I am likely to suggest some text on this in a separate message. From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Sun Jun 21 16:49:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC843A6CD1 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6GFhyTUesy4V for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A76723A6928 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:49:23 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=fctT8Cf3J3N4sAibm+vVuBSGlWuNgrRG13Ol87mX2/UZIBkSFs9GSbAKLTwWcnMF; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.50.97] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MIWn4-0002fr-FO for ltru@ietf.org; Sun, 21 Jun 2009 19:49:38 -0400 Message-ID: <001701c9f2cb$061e4620$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 16:50:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69684508f6ad19e9bdfe9d80326433b0adc6350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.50.97 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Section Ordering in RFCs (Abstract Placement) X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:49:26 -0000 Hi - forwarded for you information. Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "RFC Editor" > To: ; > Cc: "IAB" ; "IESG" ; "RFC Editor" > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2009 6:24 PM > Subject: Section Ordering in RFCs (Abstract Placement) > > Greetings All, > > The recent changes to the copyright for RFCs (RFC 5378), and the > changes that will be required when > draft-iab-streams-headers-boilerplates-08.txt is published, often > result in the abstract not appearing on the front page of the RFC. > We concur with the IETF-list comments that expressed a desire to > keep the abstract on the front page of the RFC. For this reason, the > RFC Editor recommends the following section order as the initial > contents of an RFC. > > RFC header/Author information > RFC Title > Abstract > Status of this Memo > [IESG Note - when required] > Copyright > > The RFC Editor will implement this change as of 1 July 2009. > > We will make requests with the appropriate individuals for the > templates and tools to be updated accordingly. However, we will > reorder the sections manually during the final publication stage until > the updated tools are available. > > Thank you. > > RFC Editor > > _______________________________________________ > IETF-Announce mailing list > IETF-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Mon Jun 22 13:13:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 22F1D3A6B5A; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Message-Id: <20090622201332.22F1D3A6B5A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Internet Architecture Board , ltru mailing list , ltru chair , RFC Editor Subject: [Ltru] Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 20:13:32 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry ' as an Informational RFC This document is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Lisa Dusseault. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt Technical Summary This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, for use in forming tags for identifying languages. As an Internet-Draft, it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the Registry to be used by IANA in updating it. This update adds several thousand language codes to the registry, which will allow these languages to be identified appropriately on the Internet. To prevent confusion, the actual registry contents will be removed before publication as an RFC. Working Group Summary The WG process for this document was mostly smooth and revolving around details. This document also reflects changes defined in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, which are disussed in a separate writeup. Document Quality The data contained in the document when it was an Internet Draft has been read and processed by several tools the implement parsing of the registry format and additional operations on this data. Personnel Martin J. Dürst is the Document Shepherd for this document. Alexey Melnikov is the Responsible Area Director. RFC Editor Note Please remove use of RFC 2119 boilerplate, if you think it is appropriate for this document. From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon Jun 22 15:05:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42F3628C270 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.915 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.915 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.239, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0PiKpA6WM0d2 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.168]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367EB28C26F for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 29so93955wff.31 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:05:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=JXdvEYJOOtw0JVEecLu3+9lPHBwrgBBWb7pz/vq2bCQ=; b=PrSMpyRgX2xzZKtTahu7IiAOnl1M7NLdR+MeR+1agEXxCBGuNrSpiwBfL02yS5bzPR bQdhe8+8V7UWwVd2pS0EC9ZUWGFMxv6nWjOafanGWtbdXI9MOpcOSkB4yOPTayMYzLS3 ++0ggRqUAlOH8LH4nAfu4B/zfoNIf2WupwyjM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=TqZQJDdDc7d+8LJC8W3RcPubg9Pn2yyg62tlHFrIlyUEfZ6/SjoWut4oTon86JM4yW YqumpxwGtNYByaYE4f2G7/ikX0Oc9fiFtgNe4w592f2eOINrmUyJLRyBVJGC6VSRGUHL 4lIzWJqO49xm3EV9ZJnJJh2YiOpGFqmgpHhY8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.169.4 with SMTP id r4mr2863829wfe.105.1245708347948; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:05:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090622201332.22F1D3A6B5A@core3.amsl.com> References: <20090622201332.22F1D3A6B5A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:05:47 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 5e2941f3fbf1878a Message-ID: <30b660a20906221505t34c7a8e4ndfe243bd59a33563@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: LTRU Working Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd331dc92bfab046cf7132f Subject: [Ltru] Fwd: Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:05:35 -0000 --000e0cd331dc92bfab046cf7132f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congratulations and thanks to Doug Ewell and all other contributors to 4645bis! Mark ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: The IESG Date: Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 13:13 Subject: [Ltru] Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' t= o Informational RFC To: IETF-Announce Cc: Internet Architecture Board , ltru mailing list < ltru@ietf.org>, ltru chair , RFC Editor < rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org> The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry ' as an Informational RFC This document is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Lisa Dusseault. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt Technical Summary This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, for use in forming tags for identifying languages. As an Internet-Draft, it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the Registry to be used by IANA in updating it. This update adds several thousand language codes to the registry, which will allow these languages to be identified appropriately on the Internet. To prevent confusion, the actual registry contents will be removed before publication as an RFC. Working Group Summary The WG process for this document was mostly smooth and revolving around details. This document also reflects changes defined in draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, which are disussed in a separate writeup. Document Quality The data contained in the document when it was an Internet Draft has been read and processed by several tools the implement parsing of the registry format and additional operations on this data. Personnel Martin J. D=C3=BCrst is the Document Shepherd for this document. Alexey Melnikov is the Responsible Area Director. RFC Editor Note Please remove use of RFC 2119 boilerplate, if you think it is appropriate for this document. _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --000e0cd331dc92bfab046cf7132f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Congratulations and thanks to Doug Ewell and all other contributors to 4645= bis!

Mark


---------- Forwarded message ----------<= br>From: The IESG <<= a href=3D"mailto:iesg-secretary@ietf.org">iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 13:13
Subject: [Ltru] Document Action: 'U= pdate to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC
To: IETF= -Announce <ietf-announce@ietf.= org>
Cc: Internet Architecture Board <iab@iab.= org>, ltru mailing list <ltru@ie= tf.org>, ltru chair <ltru-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, RFC Editor <rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org>


The IESG has approved the following document:

- 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry '
=C2=A0 <draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt> as an Informational RFC

This document is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Lisa Dusseault.

A URL of this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4= 645bis-10.txt

Technical Summary

=C2=A0This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language
=C2=A0Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of
=C2=A0draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis,
=C2=A0for use in forming tags for identifying languages. As an Internet-Dr= aft,



=C2=A0it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the
Registry
=C2=A0to be used by IANA in updating it. This update adds several thousand=
=C2=A0language codes to the registry, which will allow these languages to<= br> =C2=A0be identified appropriately on the Internet. To prevent confusion, t= he
=C2=A0actual registry contents will be removed before publication as an RF= C.

Working Group Summary

=C2=A0The WG process for this document was mostly smooth and revolving
=C2=A0around details. This document also reflects changes defined in
=C2=A0draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, which are disussed in a separate writeup.
Document Quality

=C2=A0The data contained in the document when it was an Internet Draft
=C2=A0has been read and processed by several tools the implement parsing =C2=A0of the registry format and additional operations on this data.

Personnel

=C2=A0 Martin J. D=C3=BCrst is the Document Shepherd for this document. =C2=A0 Alexey Melnikov is the Responsible Area Director.

RFC Editor Note

=C2=A0 Please remove use of RFC 2119 boilerplate, if you think it is
appropriate for this document.


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--000e0cd331dc92bfab046cf7132f-- From cowan@ccil.org Mon Jun 22 15:18:03 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAA63A6B86 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:18:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6c877U7a0E3m for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B65A3A67E6 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MIrqE-0007dD-5w; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:18:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:18:18 -0400 To: Mark Davis =?utf-8?B?4j8/?= Message-ID: <20090622221818.GB11345@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20090622201332.22F1D3A6B5A@core3.amsl.com> <30b660a20906221505t34c7a8e4ndfe243bd59a33563@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906221505t34c7a8e4ndfe243bd59a33563@mail.gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:18:04 -0000 Mark Davis â?? scripsit: > Congratulations and thanks to Doug Ewell and all other contributors to > 4645bis! Indeed. What happens now? Do we nudge IANA into taking action? -- Unless it was by accident that I had John Cowan offended someone, I never apologized. cowan@ccil.org --Quentin Crisp http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Mon Jun 22 15:27:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80EC428C10B for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:27:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.223, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uI-YROZotvIL for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com (wf-out-1314.google.com [209.85.200.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9852F3A699F for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 29so97029wff.31 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:27:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=LwAnL8QIOVbArGEoW+KQajuyx3M8Fs1s/oxVsdiNYxE=; b=xVB9Oky6NBeYCzctOyqCtPJJ/KwPMkI3Kjg0xz068A34mLc/dKT2LpkpUab5dGWh4G gEOAdp6Rh/ZJ/u0nqL+2grwvioVd5CbFihrMNOkyllwnO/8YYepApN5f+e1OyJQQGYsW XUD7BJEnGiGZeXMHbD6lN9YQZfcJNFAUOqrrU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=Xbn1ZSvyaUMirgmEdYTY24zBeEhthc4DkFTYmmPX84K1G0eS5aT6fR7m50/zamCzQc u4xpl5BHbo8/fEOcZzgkRRnYZRCIP+Jx19DCBEpStbkg3gY3f+eAFQcTHtPf78/ajvW6 Z6EUp1nkoNYjJRzsSq2XF+v91wflKU95YePTM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.142.171.3 with SMTP id t3mr2044409wfe.195.1245709651813; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:27:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090622221818.GB11345@mercury.ccil.org> References: <20090622201332.22F1D3A6B5A@core3.amsl.com> <30b660a20906221505t34c7a8e4ndfe243bd59a33563@mail.gmail.com> <20090622221818.GB11345@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:27:31 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9bc68703f926f1f4 Message-ID: <30b660a20906221527h69fd1c02m572ed16998d04187@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd182644a2570046cf761e9 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fwd: Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:27:18 -0000 --000e0cd182644a2570046cf761e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothing can happen until 4646bis is also approved. Mark On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 15:18, John Cowan wrote: > Mark Davis =C3=A2?? scripsit: > > > Congratulations and thanks to Doug Ewell and all other contributors to > > 4645bis! > > Indeed. What happens now? Do we nudge IANA into taking action? > > -- > Unless it was by accident that I had John Cowan > offended someone, I never apologized. cowan@ccil.org > --Quentin Crisp http://www.ccil.org/~cowan= > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > --000e0cd182644a2570046cf761e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nothing can happen until 4646bis is also approved.

Mar= k


On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 15:18, John Cowa= n <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Mark Davis =C3=A2?? scripsit:

> Congratulations and thanks to Doug Ewell and all other contributors to=
> 4645bis!

Indeed. =C2=A0What happens now? =C2=A0Do we nudge IANA into taking ac= tion?

--
Unless it was by accident that I had =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0John Cowan
offended someone, I never apologized. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--Quentin Crisp =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan

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Ltru mailing list
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--000e0cd182644a2570046cf761e9-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Mon Jun 22 15:44:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DAF03A68BB for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:44:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.949 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.949 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FK6b08WiXTbG for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B14F3A6825 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:44:16 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=CqJmTqzN52hM2/abc36sgc+bEFr7ilh06VGWmW+zRJXvlBOuT+yPlpEm4ZD1yr7T; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.55.85] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MIsFc-0001Xk-1p for ltru@ietf.org; Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:44:32 -0400 Message-ID: <001601c9f38b$1b77a780$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:45:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696835911405e37e398ddd4a48e14622c597350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.55.85 Subject: [Ltru] Fw: Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2009 22:44:17 -0000 Hi - Congratulations all! Thanks to co-chair & document shepherd Martin Duerst and to our AD Alexey Melnikov for guiding it through these last few nerve- wracking weeks, and extra-special thanks to document editor Doug Ewell for patiently taking care of what must be one of the longest internet drafts ever to make its way through the IETF. Randy ----- Original Message ----- > From: "The IESG" > To: "IETF-Announce" > Cc: "Internet Architecture Board" ; "RFC Editor" ; "ltru mailing list" ; "ltru chair" > Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:13 PM > Subject: Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC > > The IESG has approved the following document: > > - 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry ' > as an Informational RFC > > This document is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working > Group. > > The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Lisa Dusseault. > > A URL of this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4645bis-10.txt > > Technical Summary > > This memo defines the procedure used to update the IANA Language > Subtag Registry in conjunction with the publication of > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, > for use in forming tags for identifying languages. As an Internet-Draft, > > > > it also contained a complete replacement of the contents of the > Registry > to be used by IANA in updating it. This update adds several thousand > language codes to the registry, which will allow these languages to > be identified appropriately on the Internet. To prevent confusion, the > actual registry contents will be removed before publication as an RFC. > > Working Group Summary > > The WG process for this document was mostly smooth and revolving > around details. This document also reflects changes defined in > draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis, which are disussed in a separate writeup. > > Document Quality > > The data contained in the document when it was an Internet Draft > has been read and processed by several tools the implement parsing > of the registry format and additional operations on this data. > > Personnel > > Martin J. Drst is the Document Shepherd for this document. > Alexey Melnikov is the Responsible Area Director. > > RFC Editor Note > > Please remove use of RFC 2119 boilerplate, if you think it is > appropriate for this document. > From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Tue Jun 23 06:32:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A7F328C32C for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:32:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.513 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.513 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GpacQYseX-e4 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA95428C2C0 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 06:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.109] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:33:11 +0100 Message-ID: <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:32:14 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: ltru@ietf.org References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:32:58 -0000 Alexey Melnikov wrote: > Hi, > A bit of good news: both documents were approved for publication by > IESG yesterday. 4645bis doesn't require any changes and the > announcement would be sent out around Monday-Tuesday next week. For > 4646bis, there is one extra change (addition) that needs to be done to > the document - some text about applicability statement, i.e. for which > purposes the IANA registry can and can't be used, what it wasn't > designed for. I am likely to suggest some text on this in a separate > message. Ok, this is a stab at the text about applicability statement. I suspect this should be a new section: The structure of the Language Tag registry is not designed for direct creation of user-interfacing or query processing code. For example, the registry does not contain the information necessary to produce, a properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu. Some reasons for why creating a good end-user interface isn't possible are: - The registry does not contain translations. - It does not give additional information that would allow to group languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface (which might be necessary for a large number of languages). - It does not give information about potential overlaps of language tags. - It does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. As an example, it is impossible to derive from the registry what language pairs with common prefixes are mutually intelligible, because in the general case, this depends on a user's language knowledge. - It does not contain information about "backup languages", because such languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact that one language may be used as a backup language for another is a result of the political and cultural situation, and may not apply for all users. The typical example for a backup language is that people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in the North-West of France) may be served French if Breton isn't available. ========= The target audience for this section are developers of user interfaces, language query processing engines, etc. I am not expecting this new section to document all cases for which the Language Tag registry is considered to be appropriate or not appropriate. But it should be a reasonable starting point and can be expanded in the future, if 4646bis is ever revised. Please suggest improvements/modifications of this text before about noon (EST) on Thursday, June 25th. I will be on holidays for a week after that, so if this text doesn't get in, then there would be at least 1 week extra delay with approval announcement for 4646bis. Thanks, Alexey From mgunn@egt.ie Tue Jun 23 07:32:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2D253A6EC2 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:32:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.298 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.298 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NZwPVl01BBCw for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail28.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail28.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.224]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F0DDD3A69C2 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 07:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 48239 messnum 3428562 invoked from network[86.42.158.113/86-42-158-113-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 23 Jun 2009 14:32:24 -0000 Received: from 86-42-158-113-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.158.113) by mail28.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 48239) with SMTP; 23 Jun 2009 14:32:24 -0000 Message-ID: <4A40E63C.3000109@egt.ie> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:27:08 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov , 'LTRU Working Group' References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000301010608030601060509" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:32:11 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000301010608030601060509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Under pressure of work here, so only useful suggestion I can make on the hop is to put the mention of the target audience first (positive) and relegate the mention of the unfriendly end-user interface (negative) to the end. Otherwise, a good stab at doing what is needed. Rgds, mg Scríobh Alexey Melnikov: > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > >> Hi, >> A bit of good news: both documents were approved for publication by >> IESG yesterday. 4645bis doesn't require any changes and the >> announcement would be sent out around Monday-Tuesday next week. For >> 4646bis, there is one extra change (addition) that needs to be done >> to the document - some text about applicability statement, i.e. for >> which purposes the IANA registry can and can't be used, what it >> wasn't designed for. I am likely to suggest some text on this in a >> separate message. > > Ok, this is a stab at the text about applicability statement. I > suspect this should be a new section: > > The structure of the Language Tag registry is not designed for direct > creation of user-interfacing or query processing code. For example, > the registry does not contain the information necessary to produce, a > properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu. > > Some reasons for why creating a good end-user interface isn't possible > are: > - The registry does not contain translations. > - It does not give additional information that would allow to group > languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface (which > might be necessary for a large number of languages). > - It does not give information about potential overlaps of language tags. > - It does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. As an > example, it is impossible to derive from the registry what language > pairs with common prefixes are mutually intelligible, because in the > general case, this depends on a user's language knowledge. > - It does not contain information about "backup languages", because > such languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact that one > language may be used as a backup language for another is a result of > the political and cultural situation, and may not apply for all users. > The typical example for a backup language is that people who use > Breton (a Celtic language used in the North-West of France) may be > served French if Breton isn't available. > > ========= > The target audience for this section are developers of user > interfaces, language query processing engines, etc. > I am not expecting this new section to document all cases for which > the Language Tag registry is considered to be appropriate or not > appropriate. > But it should be a reasonable starting point and can be expanded in > the future, if 4646bis is ever revised. > > Please suggest improvements/modifications of this text before about > noon (EST) on Thursday, June 25th. > I will be on holidays for a week after that, so if this text doesn't > get in, then there would be at least 1 week extra delay with approval > announcement for 4646bis. > > Thanks, > Alexey > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * --------------000301010608030601060509 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Under pressure of work here, so only useful suggestion I can make on the hop is to put the mention of  the target audience first (positive) and relegate the mention of the unfriendly end-user interface (negative) to the end. Otherwise, a good stab at doing what is needed.

Rgds,
mg


Scríobh Alexey Melnikov:
Alexey Melnikov wrote:

Hi,
A bit of good news: both documents were approved for publication by IESG yesterday. 4645bis doesn't require any changes and the announcement would be sent out around Monday-Tuesday next week. For 4646bis, there is one extra change (addition) that needs to be done to the document - some text about applicability statement, i.e. for which purposes the IANA registry can and can't be used, what it wasn't designed for. I am likely to suggest some text on this in a separate message.

Ok, this is a stab at the text about applicability statement. I suspect this should be a new section:

The structure of the Language Tag registry is not designed for direct creation of user-interfacing or query processing code. For example, the registry does not contain the information necessary to produce, a properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu.

Some reasons for why creating a good end-user interface isn't possible are:
- The registry does not contain translations.
- It does not give additional information that would allow to group languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface (which might be necessary for a large number of languages).
- It does not give information about potential overlaps of language tags.
- It does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. As an example, it is impossible to derive from the registry what language pairs with common prefixes are mutually intelligible, because in the general case, this depends on a user's language knowledge.
- It does not contain information about "backup languages", because such languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact that one language may be used as a backup language for another is a result of the political and cultural situation, and may not apply for all users. The typical example for a backup language is that people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in the North-West of France) may be served French if Breton isn't available.

=========
The target audience for this section are developers of user interfaces, language query processing engines, etc.
I am not expecting this new section to document all cases for which the Language Tag registry is considered to be appropriate or not appropriate.
But it should be a reasonable starting point and can be expanded in the future, if 4646bis is ever revised.

Please suggest improvements/modifications of this text before about noon (EST) on Thursday, June 25th.
I will be on holidays for a week after that, so if this text doesn't get in, then there would be at least 1 week extra delay with approval announcement for 4646bis.

Thanks,
Alexey

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru



--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--------------000301010608030601060509-- From addison@amazon.com Tue Jun 23 08:07:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7C963A6EC3 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:07:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.109, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dwwZ9oH+7Yvv for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 714863A6D28 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:07:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,276,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="235529561" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 23 Jun 2009 15:07:27 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5NF7QPE000554 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:07:26 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:07:25 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Alexey Melnikov , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:07:23 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0BzQ3SMLEo49cSPSS1aLcYdQDBQABhIXw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> In-Reply-To: <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:07:13 -0000 SGkgQWxleGV5LA0KDQpJJ20gdW5jbGVhciBvbiB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiB0aGUgcHJvcG9zZWQg dGV4dCwgaW4gcGFydCBiZWNhdXNlIHRoZSBmb2N1cyBpcyBvbiB3aHkgaXQgaXMgaW5zdWZmaWNp ZW50IGZvciBwcm9kdWNpbmcgYSB1c2VyIGludGVyZmFjZS4gUXVpdGUgdG8gdGhlIGNvbnRyYXJ5 IG9mIHdoYXQgeW91IHN1Z2dlc3QsIGhhdmluZyB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgaGFzIGVuYWJsZWQgbWUs IGF0IGxlYXN0LCB0byBwcm9kdWNlIHVzZXIgaW50ZXJmYWNlcyB0aGF0IGFsbG93IHVzZXJzIHRv 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23 08:34:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C30F28C14C for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:34:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.578 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.578 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.021, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Y6L+OKr7+zY for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12EE128C2FC for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 08:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MJ80b-0008SP-WB; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:34:06 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 11:34:05 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20090623153405.GB26920@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: Alexey Melnikov , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:34:07 -0000 Phillips, Addison scripsit: > So I would suggest the following text instead: +1 -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. --Bilbo From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Tue Jun 23 09:04:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E018428C37B for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:04:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.885 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.885 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.209, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MT5DIpqgpxeG for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com (mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6556928C360 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:04:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe1 with SMTP id 1so86185yxe.29 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:04:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=9ugUZaxz28w+j+HPW4fGF7hVPeeFMC1VEJfzDC15ir0=; b=dBrCZ71AIf0Op9ydXACjZXLQAlbdi6tUgnTywzBruriWJERq1ngfqD5eT7+53nbU1h 31lII+zRMEf9a/jPR1uXINtJ6Kh7dzc4A1fycrZWFEHeX+I78kAf6cxmSkZIkXwdkwb4 DMi+acTt0eNHZq2RoD68zJ83Rya50Qy5D0efA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=OVs9KcB3QBDGrEglR5yDX9ISUxNkEIIxU6BikRpbSe2diZJk/1cyqWn41L6jhErRl2 NmJNnicGdkBgoODqM0ICYSwp6bJzqLqmrKeHw8Owq34R3/+W/wZ/0OKAr0VxhKeOVPNy 9XJOHz2LPV+duCnNhP9c89POIUh9El8PzCfvo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.41.4 with SMTP id o4mr345881ano.53.1245773055288; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:04:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090623153405.GB26920@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090623153405.GB26920@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:04:15 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 49b081d5cee12e71 Message-ID: <30b660a20906230904r375415c0u8792adefcffb0a06@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e641fe066e651a046d06245e Cc: Alexey Melnikov , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:04:11 -0000 --0016e641fe066e651a046d06245e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +1 Mark On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 08:34, John Cowan wrote: > Phillips, Addison scripsit: > > > So I would suggest the following text instead: > > +1 > > -- > John Cowan cowan@ccil.org http://ccil.org/~cowan > I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths > led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. I am the clue-finder, > the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. > --Bilbo > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016e641fe066e651a046d06245e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1

Mark


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 08:34, John Cowa= n <cowan@ccil.org> wrote:
Phillips, Addison scripsit:

> So I would suggest the following text instead:

+1

--
John Cowan =C2=A0 cowan@ccil.org =C2= =A0 =C2=A0http://cci= l.org/~cowan
I come from under the hill, and under the hills and over the hills my paths=
led. And through the air. I am he that walks unseen. =C2=A0I am the clue-fi= nder,
the web-cutter, the stinging fly. I was chosen for the lucky number. =C2=A0= --Bilbo
__________________________________= _____________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016e641fe066e651a046d06245e-- From prvs=1425033667=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Tue Jun 23 09:24:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F2528C375 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.001, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cucAYYrzT00C for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BB63A6EC2 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009526868.msg for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:44:27 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:44:27 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1425033667=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:24:46 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'Phillips, Addison'" , "'Alexey Melnikov'" , References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:24:02 +0100 Message-ID: <080601c9f41f$07be3800$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: Acn0BzQ3SMLEo49cSPSS1aLcYdQDBQABhIXwAARE3JA= X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:44:28 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:26:30 -0000 Addison wrote: > Sadly, I would like to add links to some of the W3C's > materials here, but there is no single link today that > describes a complete set of information. I hope, eventually, > that the LTLI document will fulfill this role. Sadly, there would appear to be very little interest in ISO FDIS 639-6 which will provide a hierarchical system for language encoding. And this despite the fact that many moons ago I, with my (mocked) crystal ball, predicted that this would be necessary for any realistic use of the data within pick lists. But, hey, what would I know! Debbie (Feeling irritated!) Editor ISO FDIS 639-6 > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Phillips, Addison > Sent: 23 June 2009 16:07 > To: Alexey Melnikov; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA > registry established by 4646 > > Hi Alexey, > > I'm unclear on the purpose of the proposed text, in part > because the focus is on why it is insufficient for producing > a user interface. Quite to the contrary of what you suggest, > having the registry has enabled me, at least, to produce user > interfaces that allow users to choose their language > preferences. It is true that the localized presentation is > not inherent in registry. But then, localized presentation > isn't inherent in very many data sources that I know of > either. And there is a very handy source of localizations of > this very material---it's the Common Locale Data Repository, > hosted by the Unicode Consortium. > > Much of this information is already inherent in the > document---Section 4.1 was intended to help implementers as > well as users of language tags--and some of this is really > more appropriate (and appears in) the companion RFC 4647. > > So I would suggest the following text instead: > > -- > Section x.x.x Applicability > > The Language Subtag registry is not designed to be the sole > data source in the creation of a user interface or query > processing code. For example, the registry does not contain > all of the information necessary to produce a properly > localized pick-list or pull-down menu. > > The registry does not contain translations for subtags or for > tags composed from the subtags. Sources for localized data > based on the registry are generally available, notably > [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag > combinations are particularly useful or relevant. > > Neither does the registry provide additional information that > would allow one to group primary languages into some form of > hierarchy or ontology based on the relationships between > languages. The relationships between languages and their > speaker populations are complex. Because there are many ways > to organize languages and because these are somewhat > arbitrary, dependent upon context, or mutually inconsistent, > the registry does not attempt to provide additional ways to > organize languages. > > Language tags and their subtags can have overlapping > meanings. The choice of language tag depends on the context > in which it is used and the user's intentions. With over 7000 > primary language subtags, applications might wish to limit > the range of subtag variation to avoid confronting users with > too many choices. It might be useful to establish a > collection of commonly used tags for a given application or > protocol. For more information, see [Section 4.1 Choice]. > > The registry does not contain information about mutual > intelligibility. Although language tag matching schemes (see > [RFC 4647]) depend on the use of language tag prefixes, two > languages that share a given prefix might not be mutually > intelligible. The registry also does not contain information > about "backup languages", because such languages are often > linguistically unrelated and the fact that one language could > be used as a backup language for another is a result of the > political, historical, cultural situation. It might not apply > to all users. An example of a "backup language" is that > people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in the > Northwest of France) will probably prefer to be served French > if Breton isn't available. > -- > > Sadly, I would like to add links to some of the W3C's > materials here, but there is no single link today that > describes a complete set of information. I hope, eventually, > that the LTLI document will fulfill this role. > > > Best Regards, > > Addison > > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > Chair -- W3C Internationalization WG > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] > On Behalf > > Of Alexey Melnikov > > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:32 AM > > To: ltru@ietf.org > > Subject: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry > > established by 4646 > > > > Alexey Melnikov wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > A bit of good news: both documents were approved for publication > > by > > > IESG yesterday. 4645bis doesn't require any changes and the > > > announcement would be sent out around Monday-Tuesday next week. > > For > > > 4646bis, there is one extra change (addition) that needs to be > > done to > > > the document - some text about applicability statement, i.e. for > > which > > > purposes the IANA registry can and can't be used, what it wasn't > > > designed for. I am likely to suggest some text on this in a > > separate > > > message. > > > > Ok, this is a stab at the text about applicability statement. I > > suspect this should be a new section: > > > > The structure of the Language Tag registry is not designed > for direct > > creation of user-interfacing or query processing code. For example, > > the registry does not contain the information necessary to > produce, a > > properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu. > > > > Some reasons for why creating a good end-user interface > isn't possible > > are: > > - The registry does not contain translations. > > - It does not give additional information that would allow to group > > languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface (which > > might be necessary for a large number of languages). > > - It does not give information about potential overlaps of language > > tags. > > - It does not contain information about mutual > intelligibility. As an > > example, it is impossible to derive from the registry what language > > pairs with common prefixes are mutually intelligible, > because in the > > general case, this depends on a user's language knowledge. > > - It does not contain information about "backup languages", because > > such languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact > that one > > language may be used as a backup language for another is a > result of > > the political and cultural situation, and may not apply for > all users. > > The > > typical example for a backup language is that people who > use Breton (a > > Celtic language used in the North-West of France) may be > served French > > if Breton isn't available. > > > > ========= > > The target audience for this section are developers of user > > interfaces, language query processing engines, etc. > > I am not expecting this new section to document all cases for which > > the Language Tag registry is considered to be appropriate or not > > appropriate. > > But it should be a reasonable starting point and can be expanded in > > the future, if 4646bis is ever revised. > > > > Please suggest improvements/modifications of this text before about > > noon > > (EST) on Thursday, June 25th. > > I will be on holidays for a week after that, so if this > text doesn't > > get in, then there would be at least 1 week extra delay > with approval > > announcement for 4646bis. > > > > Thanks, > > Alexey > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Ltru mailing list > > Ltru@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > > From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Tue Jun 23 09:44:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265673A69A7 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:44:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.371 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.371 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zo+9PFxNXhdk for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5921328C2FA for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33989 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJ97C-0004zP-5i; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:45:00 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:44:53 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Phillips, Addison" , Alexey Melnikov , "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0BzQ3SMLEo49cSPSS1aLcYdQDBQABhIXwAAUqEEA= In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MJ97C-0004zP-5i. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp01.sth.basefarm.net 1MJ97C-0004zP-5i 36ef23593aa32a1433bc82abfb3c76af Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:44:52 -0000 Sort of "+1", but the text is much more about "Some of the limitations of applicability" rather than "Applicability". So if the text is to remain so focussed on limitations, I'd suggest changing the section heading to something similar to the string above. /kent k Den 2009-06-23 17.07, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : ... > So I would suggest the following text instead: > > -- > Section x.x.x Applicability ... From mgunn@egt.ie Tue Jun 23 09:50:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2ED3A693F for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:50:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fuhdXgjgtbhm for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail27.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail27.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 603CE3A6829 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33103 messnum 3126590 invoked from network[86.42.158.113/86-42-158-113-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 23 Jun 2009 16:50:25 -0000 Received: from 86-42-158-113-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.158.113) by mail27.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 33103) with SMTP; 23 Jun 2009 16:50:25 -0000 Message-ID: <4A410697.4060403@egt.ie> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:45:11 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ltru@ietf.org" References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030403020206050605070702" Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:50:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030403020206050605070702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Scríobh Kent Karlsson: > Sort of "+1", but the text is much more about "Some of the limitations of > applicability" rather than "Applicability". My point exactly. > So if the text is to remain so > focussed on limitations, I'd suggest changing the section heading to > something similar to the string above. > I agree, except that 'Applicability' sounds better, as a title, were that not a mismatch to the actual text. mg > /kent k > > > Den 2009-06-23 17.07, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : > > ... > >> So I would suggest the following text instead: >> >> -- >> Section x.x.x Applicability >> > ... > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * --------------030403020206050605070702 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scríobh Kent Karlsson: 
Sort of "+1", but the text is much more about "Some of the limitations of
applicability" rather than "Applicability".

My point exactly.
So if the text is to remain so
focussed on limitations, I'd suggest changing the section heading to
something similar to the string above.
I agree, except that 'Applicability' sounds better, as a title, were that not a mismatch to the actual text.
mg
    /kent k


Den 2009-06-23 17.07, skrev "Phillips, Addison" <addison@amazon.com>:

... 
  
So I would suggest the following text instead:

--
Section x.x.x Applicability
    
...


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--------------030403020206050605070702-- From cowan@ccil.org Tue Jun 23 09:57:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 579CC28C392 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:57:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1YWH138L5TZG for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405AA28C2FA for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MJ9JO-0000JE-T5; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:57:34 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:57:34 -0400 To: Debbie Garside Message-ID: <20090623165734.GE26920@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <080601c9f41f$07be3800$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <080601c9f41f$07be3800$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: 'Alexey Melnikov' , ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:57:23 -0000 Debbie Garside scripsit: > Sadly, there would appear to be very little interest in ISO FDIS 639-6 which > will provide a hierarchical system for language encoding. And this despite > the fact that many moons ago I, with my (mocked) crystal ball, predicted > that this would be necessary for any realistic use of the data within pick > lists. It's a hierarchy, all right, but it's not clear that it's a *useful* hierarchy for general use. I find the Ethnologue hierarchy search very useful, but most users confronted with a page like http://www.ethnologue.com/family_index.asp and asked to find their language wouldn't even know how to start. Here's an idea I came up with some years ago: At the top level, provide a choice between a set of widely used languages (perhaps ISO 639/1 or even a subset of it) and a list of countries. If the user chooses a country, present a list of languages commonly spoken in that country. Scraping http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=XX where XX is an ISO 3166/1 country code would provide a candidate list of languages for that country. -- Cash registers don't really add and subtract; John Cowan they only grind their gears. cowan@ccil.org But then they don't really grind their gears, either; they only obey the laws of physics. --Unknown From cewcathar@hotmail.com Tue Jun 23 09:59:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A42E28C3E0 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:59:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.931 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.931 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.333, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XiK2+bLD1i3V for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:59:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s1.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s1.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.76]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9165028C3D7 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W23 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s1.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 23 Jun 2009 09:59:16 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_e938fcef-c355-4de9-bd5e-f63d2b850967_" X-Originating-IP: [168.12.253.82] From: CE Whitehead To: , , Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:58:59 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 23 Jun 2009 16:59:16.0763 (UTC) FILETIME=[F16376B0:01C9F423] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 16:59:08 -0000 --_e938fcef-c355-4de9-bd5e-f63d2b850967_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Phillips=2C Addison" =20 Date: Tue=2C 23 Jun 2009 08:07:23 -0700=20 You've noted that some information on how to use language subtags/tags is i= ncluded in section 4.1 I note that mutual intelligibility of tags that sha= re prefixes -- which you talk about below: > The registry does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. A= lthough language=20 > tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend on the use of language tag p= refixes=2C two=20 > languages that share a given prefix might not be mutually intelligible.=20 =20 is specifically dealt with in section 4.2 of the draft. Relatedness of tag= s sharing prefixes is also dealt with here. =20 I thus thought you might reference both sections (4.1 and 4.2) in your stat= ement =20 I love the fact that you have an example for the backup language issue (tho= ugh the wording was a bit awkward)=2C and also that you refer folks to CLDR= .=20 =20 All text I changed is enclosed in <> Comments in {} I preferred using the= present tense rather than the conditional whenever possible. =20 "Section x.x.x Applicability =20 " {I INSERTED THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT BASED ON ALEXEY's AND MARION's SUGGESTI= ONS:} "The Language Subtag registry is not designed to be the sole data source in= the creation of a user interface or query processing code. For example=2C = the registry does not contain all of the information necessary to produce a= properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu.=20 "The registry does not contain translations for subtags or for tags compose= d from the subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are ge= nerally available=2C notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which s= ubtag combinations are particularly useful or relevant. "Neither does the registry provide additional information that one= to group primary languages into some form of hierarchy or ontology based o= n the relationships between languages. The relationships between languages = and their speaker populations are complex. Because there are many ways to o= rganize languages and because these are somewhat arbitrary=2C dependent upo= n context=2C or mutually inconsistent=2C the registry does not attempt to p= rovide additional ways to organize languages. "Language tags and their subtags can have overlapping meanings. The choice = of language tag depends on the context in which it is used and the user's i= ntentions. With over 7000 primary language subtags=2C applications might wi= sh to limit the range of subtag variation to avoid confronting users with t= oo many choices. establish a collection of commonly used= tags for a given application or protocol. For more information=2C see [Sec= tion 4.1 Choice]. "The registry does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. Al= though language tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend on the use of = language tag prefixes=2C two languages that share a given prefix might not = be mutually intelligible. =20 =20 "The registry also does not contain information about "backup languages"=2C= because such languages are often linguistically unrelated and the fact tha= t one language be used as a backup language for another is a result o= f the political=2C historical=2C cultural situation. It might not apply to = all users. " -- =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com=20 --_e938fcef-c355-4de9-bd5e-f63d2b850967_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: "Phillips=2C Addison" <=3B= addison at amazon.com>=3B
Date: Tue=2C 23 Jun 2009 08:07:23 -0700
You've noted that some information on how to use language subtags/tags is i= ncluded in section 4.1 =3B I note that mutual intelligibility of tags t= hat share prefixes -- which you talk about below:
>=3B The registry do= es not contain information about mutual intelligibility. Although language =
>=3B tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend on the use of language = tag prefixes=2C two
>=3B languages that share a given prefix might not be mutually intelligib= le.
 =3B
is specifically dealt with in section 4.2 of the draft. =3B Relatedness= of =3Btags sharing prefixes is also dealt with here.
 =3B
I thus thought you might reference both sections (4.1 and 4.2) =3Bin yo= ur statement
 =3B
I love the =3Bfact that you =3Bhave an example for the backup langu= age issue (though the wording was a bit awkward)=2C and also that you refer= folks to CLDR. =3B
 =3B
All text I changed is enclosed in <=3B>=3B =3B Comments in {} = =3B I preferred using the present tense rather than the conditional wheneve= r possible.
 =3B
"Section x.x.x Applicability
 =3B
"
{I INSERTED THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT BASED ON ALEXEY's AND MARION's SUGGESTI= ONS:}
<=3BThe following information is provided to address some of the concerns=  =3Bof developers of user interfaces=2C language query processing engin= es=2C and other applications. =3B>=3B

"The Language Subtag reg= istry is not designed to be the sole data source in the creation of a user = interface or query processing code. For example=2C the registry does not co= ntain all of the information necessary to produce a properly localized pick= -list or pull-down menu.

"The registry does not contain translation= s for subtags or for tags composed from the subtags. Sources for localized = data based on the registry are generally available=2C notably [CLDR]. Nor d= oes the registry indicate which subtag combinations are particularly useful= or relevant.

"Neither does the registry provide additional informat= ion that <=3Ballows>=3B =3Bone to group primary languages into some= form of hierarchy or ontology based on the relationships between languages= . The relationships between languages and their speaker populations are com= plex. Because there are many ways to organize languages and because these a= re somewhat arbitrary=2C dependent upon context=2C or mutually inconsistent= =2C the registry does not attempt to provide additional ways to organize la= nguages.

"Language tags and their subtags can have overlapping meani= ngs. The choice of language tag depends on the context in which it is used = and the user's intentions. With over 7000 primary language subtags=2C appli= cations might wish to limit the range of subtag variation to avoid confront= ing users with too many choices. =3B<=3BOne option is to>=3B establ= ish =3Ba collection of commonly used tags for a given application or pr= otocol. For more information=2C see [Section 4.1 Choice].

"The regis= try does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. Although lan= guage tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend on the use of language t= ag prefixes=2C two languages that share a given prefix might not be mutuall= y intelligible. <=3BSee also =3B[Section =3B4.2].>=3B =3B  =3B
"The registry also =3Bdoes not contain information about "backup langua= ges"=2C because such languages are often linguistically unrelated and the f= act that one language =3B<=3Bcan>=3B be used as a backup language f= or another is a result of the political=2C historical=2C cultural situation= . It might not apply to all users. =3B<=3BFor example=2C French (a Ro= mance language) =3Bis generally preferred as =3Ba "backup language"=  =3Bby speakers of =3BBreton (a Celtic language used in the Northwe= st of France) when Breton is unavailable.>=3B"
--

 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

= = --_e938fcef-c355-4de9-bd5e-f63d2b850967_-- From prvs=1425033667=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk Tue Jun 23 10:14:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A661A28C260 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VSyq8P8aTD3J for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.nexbyte.net (132.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC7B528C0D9 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 145.nexbyte.net ([62.197.41.145]) by mx1.nexbyte.net (mx1.nexbyte.net [62.197.41.132]) (MDaemon PRO v9.6.6) with ESMTP id md50009527030.msg for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:33:49 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:33:49 +0100 (not processed: message from trusted or authenticated source) X-MDRemoteIP: 62.197.41.145 X-Return-Path: prvs=1425033667=debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-Envelope-From: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ltru@ietf.org Received: from CPQ86763045110 ([83.67.121.192]) by 145.nexbyte.net with MailEnable ESMTP; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:14:16 +0100 From: "Debbie Garside" To: "'John Cowan'" References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <080601c9f41f$07be3800$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> <20090623165734.GE26920@mercury.ccil.org> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:13:24 +0100 Message-ID: <081d01c9f425$f1a94760$0d00a8c0@CPQ86763045110> X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <20090623165734.GE26920@mercury.ccil.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: Acn0JB9sqvOtNOaJQmKcrLwz8gYNnwAAb8NA X-MDAV-Processed: mx1.nexbyte.net, Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:33:51 +0100 Cc: 'Alexey Melnikov' , ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list Reply-To: debbie@ictmarketing.co.uk List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:14:07 -0000 True! :-) D > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@ccil.org] > Sent: 23 June 2009 17:58 > To: Debbie Garside > Cc: 'Phillips, Addison'; 'Alexey Melnikov'; ltru@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA > registry established by 4646 > > Debbie Garside scripsit: > > > Sadly, there would appear to be very little interest in ISO > FDIS 639-6 > > which will provide a hierarchical system for language > encoding. And > > this despite the fact that many moons ago I, with my > (mocked) crystal > > ball, predicted that this would be necessary for any > realistic use of > > the data within pick lists. > > It's a hierarchy, all right, but it's not clear that it's a > *useful* hierarchy for general use. I find the Ethnologue > hierarchy search very useful, but most users confronted with > a page like http://www.ethnologue.com/family_index.asp and > asked to find their language wouldn't even know how to start. > > Here's an idea I came up with some years ago: > > At the top level, provide a choice between a set of widely > used languages (perhaps ISO 639/1 or even a subset of it) and > a list of countries. If the user chooses a country, present > a list of languages commonly spoken in that country. > Scraping http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=XX > where XX is an ISO 3166/1 country code would provide a > candidate list of languages for that country. > > -- > Cash registers don't really add and subtract; John Cowan > they only grind their gears. cowan@ccil.org > But then they don't really grind their gears, either; > they only obey the laws of physics. --Unknown > > > From petercon@microsoft.com Tue Jun 23 10:29:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0080A3A6BB7 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:29:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.082, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MB5rre+2lK4L for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33B5B3A6829 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.62) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:29:34 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.62]) with mapi; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:29:34 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Kent Karlsson , "Phillips, Addison" , Alexey Melnikov , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:29:32 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0BzQ3SMLEo49cSPSS1aLcYdQDBQABhIXwAAUqEEAAAPrc4A== Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:29:19 -0000 It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be someth= ing along the lines of the following:=20 ------------------------ The Language Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in co= nstructing language tags, following rules described in this document. The i= ntended use of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Intern= et and in other application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes o= f information objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings= ; or, for expressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such = as interfaces requesting HTML content or application resource strings match= ing certain linguistic attributes. ------------------------ Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ken= t Karlsson Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:45 AM To: Phillips, Addison; Alexey Melnikov; ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry establish= ed by 4646 Sort of "+1", but the text is much more about "Some of the limitations of applicability" rather than "Applicability". So if the text is to remain so focussed on limitations, I'd suggest changing the section heading to something similar to the string above. /kent k Den 2009-06-23 17.07, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : ...=20 > So I would suggest the following text instead: >=20 > -- > Section x.x.x Applicability ... _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Tue Jun 23 12:47:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA94128C2E1 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:47:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.58 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.58 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.019, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1S0d0jsWEnlH for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 745C728C2C3 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:47:08 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=i6CuLZ3C5kAcP+efFTepcucWVCRCLIWLUWvdpeD/B0SjsPqqpTsmOm8DWf8QOoRe; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.49.154] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MJBxk-0003pt-BD; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 15:47:24 -0400 Message-ID: <007401c9f43b$87364b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "Alexey Melnikov" , References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:48:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696862b9367464d8598a5c8125d79a08eb41350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.49.154 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:47:09 -0000 Hi - > From: "Phillips, Addison" > To: "Alexey Melnikov" ; > Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 8:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 ... > I'm unclear on the purpose of the proposed text, in part because the focus > is on why it is insufficient for producing a user interface. As co-chair: Its purpose is to address IESG / reviewer concerns. Consequently, I believe we should not attempt to broaden it or address other issues. Instead, we should focus on providing language that addresses the concerns covered by Alexey's text, no more and no less. > Quite to the contrary of what you suggest, having the registry has enabled me, > at least, to produce user interfaces that allow users to choose their language > preferences. Please, let's not go there. There can be no desirable outcome to pursuing this argument. > It is true that the localized presentation is not inherent in registry. > But then, localized presentation isn't inherent in very many data > sources that I know of either. That's the point. It may be obvious to folks with even a little internationalization background, but since it was not that obvious to the IESG/reviewer, we need to address it. > And there is a very handy source of localizations of this very material --- > it's the Common Locale Data Repository, hosted by the Unicode Consortium. Fine, but we're not being asked to solve the "problem"; we're only being asked to warn the naive. > Much of this information is already inherent in the document --- Section 4.1 > was intended to help implementers as well as users of language tags -- and > some of this is really more appropriate (and appears in) the companion RFC 4647. As a technical contributor: I'd agree, but there *will* be text here, so let's just deal with it, rather than speculating about alternatives that just won't be happening. > So I would suggest the following text instead: > > -- > Section x.x.x Applicability > > The Language Subtag registry is not designed to be the sole data source in the > creation of a user interface or query processing code. For example, the registry > does not contain all of the information necessary to produce a properly localized > pick-list or pull-down menu. I'd prefer something closer to Alexey's original: The Language Subtag registry is not designed for direct creation of user-interface query processing code. For example, the registry lacks information necessary to produce a properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu. > The registry does not contain translations for subtags or for tags composed > from the subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are generally > available, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag > combinations are particularly useful or relevant. This issue was not raised, so I oppose adding this text. > Neither does the registry provide additional information that would allow > one to group primary languages into some form of hierarchy or ontology > based on the relationships between languages. The relationships between > languages and their speaker populations are complex. Because there are > many ways to organize languages and because these are somewhat arbitrary, > dependent upon context, or mutually inconsistent, the registry does not attempt > to provide additional ways to organize languages. Alexey's corresponding original text was much more concise. I'd replace the above with: It does not give additional information that would support grouping primary languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface. > Language tags and their subtags can have overlapping meanings. > The choice of language tag depends on the context in which it is used > and the user's intentions. With over 7000 primary language subtags, > applications might wish to limit the range of subtag variation to avoid > confronting users with too many choices. It might be useful to establish > a collection of commonly used tags for a given application or protocol. > For more information, see [Section 4.1 Choice]. Way too much. I'd prefer something closer to what Alexey proposed: It does not give information about potential overlaps, which can occur, for example, in the case of a dialect continuum. > The registry does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. > Although language tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend > on the use of language tag prefixes, two languages that share a given > prefix might not be mutually intelligible. This is fine with me. > The registry also does not > contain information about "backup languages", because such > languages are often linguistically unrelated and the fact that one > language could be used as a backup language for another is a > result of the political, historical, cultural situation. It might not apply to > all users. An example of a "backup language" is that people who use > Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) will > probably prefer to be served French if Breton isn't available. I'd prefer slight wording tweaks: It does not contain information about "backup languages." Ssuch languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact that one language may be used as a backup language for another is a result of the political, historicalm and cultural situation, and can be user-specific. For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in the North-West of France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. Randy From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Tue Jun 23 13:45:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 098CC28C42F for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:45:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.873 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.873 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.197, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i315rdXvkZVq for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com (mail-yx0-f171.google.com [209.85.210.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653003A6EF0 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe1 with SMTP id 1so382608yxe.29 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=R6IkZQvWdo47jP0PcCbxwcM/PH7mFaDPqVgysx+MFc8=; b=JGvSMlLuvA9BG8iNoS6G8MNBnUxwxDQO31L2SJiatf4/xtY3DUzRwXj31gzTPESD25 UjYx2ahn4f6OAnF5PVVMVgkj9nnyXMeDowOlIrkV5OkktO2SH+6BmdI5WQ+BHvyBaX2C 7ktdTwE+rT+A0Py1nWspFbXD+ekjNEew3B0mU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=GuDqg+JnDF2BFD8/gRj6TiBy8K92DvNW/Vp5l0e5OI6tsW1+L18gS1L3+0UnfXbPcG gthSiWKeM3qFWJCUmPobz+CFrgHF+57RqLr1qGSVOWOul2khFiSwu/1TZPtKj2rbYDdR FleeHFlXSmhmtmVDeVXMA/JI05kwb7O9V+Shg= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.140.15 with SMTP id n15mr751914and.83.1245789921452; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:45:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <007401c9f43b$87364b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <4A3B67EB.7000406@isode.com> <4A40D95E.3020001@isode.com> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <007401c9f43b$87364b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:45:21 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 21fbaf39111a40b2 Message-ID: <30b660a20906231345m30133fdcy7919de04772f19a5@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Randy Presuhn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64355debba164046d0a112b Cc: Alexey Melnikov , ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:45:09 -0000 --0016e64355debba164046d0a112b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:48, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > ... > > > So I would suggest the following text instead: > > > > -- > > Section x.x.x Applicability > > > > The Language Subtag registry is not designed to be the sole data source > in the > > creation of a user interface or query processing code. For example, the > registry > > does not contain all of the information necessary to produce a properly > localized > > pick-list or pull-down menu. > > I'd prefer something closer to Alexey's original: > > The Language Subtag registry is not designed for direct creation of > user-interface > query processing code. For example, the registry lacks information > necessary to > produce a properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu. > Addison's is better. Who knows what "direct creation" means? > > > > The registry does not contain translations for subtags or for tags > composed > > from the subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are > generally > > available, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag > > combinations are particularly useful or relevant. > > This issue was not raised, so I oppose adding this text. The issue of the registry being insufficient for localization was raised, so this text *is* relevant. > > > > Neither does the registry provide additional information that would allow > > one to group primary languages into some form of hierarchy or ontology > > based on the relationships between languages. The relationships between > > languages and their speaker populations are complex. Because there are > > many ways to organize languages and because these are somewhat arbitrary, > > dependent upon context, or mutually inconsistent, the registry does not > attempt > > to provide additional ways to organize languages. > > Alexey's corresponding original text was much more concise. I'd replace > the above > with: > > It does not give additional information that would support grouping > primary languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface. Addison's reasoning was clearly to provide some background for why we don't include that kind of information. But I'm ok with the shorter version if reworded somewhat, as the following. It does not provide information indicating the relationship between different languages, such as those used in a hierarchical user interface for selecting language tags. > > > > Language tags and their subtags can have overlapping meanings. > > The choice of language tag depends on the context in which it is used > > and the user's intentions. With over 7000 primary language subtags, > > applications might wish to limit the range of subtag variation to avoid > > confronting users with too many choices. It might be useful to establish > > a collection of commonly used tags for a given application or protocol. > > For more information, see [Section 4.1 Choice]. > > Way too much. I'd prefer something closer to what Alexey proposed: > > It does not give information about potential overlaps, which can occur, for > example, in the case of a dialect continuum. The problem with Alexey's version is that lots of people will have no idea what it means: "dialect continuum"?? "overlaps"?? If we really want a shorter version, it needs to be understandable. Maybe: The notion of what constitutes a language is not precise: a given piece of content may be reasonably tagged by different language tags. The registry does not supply information about such potential overlaps. > > > > The registry does not contain information about mutual intelligibility. > > Although language tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend > > on the use of language tag prefixes, two languages that share a given > > prefix might not be mutually intelligible. > > This is fine with me. > > > The registry also does not > > contain information about "backup languages", because such > > languages are often linguistically unrelated and the fact that one > > language could be used as a backup language for another is a > > result of the political, historical, cultural situation. It might not > apply to > > all users. An example of a "backup language" is that people who use > > Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) will > > probably prefer to be served French if Breton isn't available. > > I'd prefer slight wording tweaks: Ok with the following, with some small corrections. > > > It does not contain information about "backup languages." Ssuch Such > > languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact that one language > unrelated. The > > may be used as a backup language for another is a result of the > political, historicalm and cultural situation, and can be user-specific. historical, > > For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used > in the North-West of France) would probably prefer to be served > French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016e64355debba164046d0a112b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mark


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:48, Randy Pre= suhn <= randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

...

> So I would suggest the following text instead:
>
> --
> Section x.x.x Applicability
>
> The Language Subtag registry is not designed to be the sole data sourc= e in the
> creation of a user interface or query processing code. For example, th= e registry
> does not contain all of the information necessary to produce a properl= y localized
> pick-list or pull-down menu.

I'd prefer something closer to Alexey's original:

The Language Subtag registry is not designed for direct creation of user-in= terface
query processing code. For example, the registry lacks information necessar= y to
produce a properly localized pick-list or pull-down menu.=

Addison's is better. Who knows what "d= irect creation" means?


> The registry does not contain translations for subtags or for tags com= posed
> from the subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are= generally
> available, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag=
> combinations are particularly useful or relevant.

This issue was not raised, so I oppose adding this text.
=

The issue of the registry being insufficient for localization was = raised, so this text is relevant.
=C2=A0


> Neither does the registry provide additional information that would al= low
> one to group primary languages into some form of hierarchy or ontology=
> based on the relationships between languages. The relationships betwee= n
> languages and their speaker populations are complex. Because there are=
> many ways to organize languages and because these are somewhat arbitra= ry,
> dependent upon context, or mutually inconsistent, the registry does no= t attempt
> to provide additional ways to organize languages.

Alexey's corresponding original text was much more concise. =C2= =A0I'd replace the above
with:

It does not give additional information that would support grouping
primary languages in a hierarchy for a hierarchical user interface.

Addison's reasoning was clearly to provide some backgroun= d for why we don't include that kind of information. But I'm ok wit= h the shorter version if reworded somewhat, as the following.

It does not provide information indic= ating the relationship between different languages, such as those used in a= hierarchical user interface for selecting language tags.
=C2=A0


> Language tags and their subtags can have overlapping meanings.
> The choice of language tag depends on the context in which it is used<= br> > and the user's intentions. With over 7000 primary language subtags= ,
> applications might wish to limit the range of subtag variation to avoi= d
> confronting users with too many choices. It might be useful to establi= sh
> a collection of commonly used tags for a given application or protocol= .
> For more information, see [Section 4.1 Choice].

Way too much. =C2=A0I'd prefer something closer to what Alexey pr= oposed:

It does not give information about potential overlaps, which can occur, for=
example, in the case of a dialect continuum.

The probl= em with Alexey's version is that lots of people will have no idea what = it means: "dialect continuum"?? "overlaps"?? If we real= ly want a shorter version, it needs to be understandable. Maybe:

The notion of what constitutes a lang= uage is not precise: a given piece of content may be reasonably tagged by d= ifferent language tags. The registry does not supply information about such= potential overlaps.
=C2=A0


> The registry does not contain information about mutual intelligibility= .
> Although language tag matching schemes (see [RFC 4647]) depend
> on the use of language tag prefixes, two languages that share a given<= br> > prefix might not be mutually intelligible.

This is fine with me.

> The registry also does not
> contain information about "backup languages", because such > languages are often linguistically unrelated and the fact that one
> language could be used as a backup language for another is a
> result of the political, historical, cultural situation. It might not = apply to
> all users. An example of a "backup language" is that people = who use
> Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) will
> probably prefer to be served French if Breton isn't available.

I'd prefer slight wording tweaks:

Ok with th= e following, with some small corrections.


It does not contain information about "backup languages." Ssuch
Such

languages may be linguistically unrelated and the fact th= at one language
unrelat= ed. The

may be used as a backup language for another is a result of the
political, historicalm and cultural situation, and can be user-specif= ic.
historical,

For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used
in the North-West of France) would probably prefer to be served
French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available.

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016e64355debba164046d0a112b-- From kent.karlsson14@comhem.se Tue Jun 23 14:32:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF18428C0E2 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:32:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.385 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.385 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.214, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nuAOSbQxF7A6 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E02D23A6A6E for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 14:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:33299 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJDaf-0000ri-6t; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:31:41 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:31:33 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: Randy Presuhn , Alexey Melnikov , Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0SfqLhBjinYmeOkmd8roVso7mXA== In-Reply-To: <007401c9f43b$87364b60$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MJDaf-0000ri-6t. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MJDaf-0000ri-6t df02a8803973342c653da5c79b911cf4 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:32:00 -0000 Den 2009-06-23 21.48, skrev "Randy Presuhn" : > The Language Subtag registry is not designed for direct creation of > user-interface > query processing code. What is "user-interface query processing code"? And what is "direct creation" of it? > It does not contain information about "backup languages." Ssuch This introduces a new term, "backup languages". I'm not at all keen on introducing a new term at this extreme late stage. And even if one were to introduce a term for this, I would NOT choose "backup language". CLDR calls this "fallback", MacOS has a language priority list, and that is also term RFC 4647 uses. /kent k From doug@ewellic.org Tue Jun 23 17:35:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7BB3A69F1 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:35:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.26 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.26 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.338, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kQfC4Iv2CKu0 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BB4493A69B2 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12801 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2009 00:35:29 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.86) with ESMTP; 24 Jun 2009 00:35:28 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:35:26 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Fw: Document Action: 'Update to the Language Subtag Registry' to Informational RFC X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:35:14 -0000 Randy Presuhn wrote: > Congratulations all! Thanks to co-chair & document shepherd Martin > Duerst and to our AD Alexey Melnikov for guiding it through these last > few nerve-wracking weeks, and extra-special thanks to document editor > Doug Ewell for patiently taking care of what must be one of the > longest internet drafts ever to make its way through the IETF. Now we just need to hope that the 14th-hour additions to 4646bis will go quickly and smoothly, and that ietf-languages will have a minimum of new requests until both new RFCs are published, so as to minimize the number of special-case retrofits that IANA needs to perform. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From doug@ewellic.org Tue Jun 23 17:49:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B968C3A6A3F for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:49:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.269 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.269 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.329, BAYES_00=-2.599, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yogRaWDvt+JV for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa01-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa01-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [72.167.82.82]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 224513A68AC for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 17:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 3322 invoked from network); 24 Jun 2009 00:49:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by p3plsmtpa01-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (72.167.82.82) with ESMTP; 24 Jun 2009 00:49:00 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:48:58 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:49:07 -0000 I agree for the most part with Mark's suggested text, which maintains the spirit of brevity of Alexey's original text, but is not so exceedingly terse that it raises more questions than it answers. I also agree with Kent's concern about introducing "backup languages" as a new term. We in the WG understand what this means, but many readers will expect a formal explanation. "Fallback" won't quite work either, since RFC 4647 uses this term to refer specifically to the tag you end up with when you start truncating subtags from the right. I wonder if it would be possible, in this brief paragraph, to talk about the concept of the language(s) in which a user prefers to receive content, without having to introduce a new term for it. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From addison@amazon.com Tue Jun 23 18:31:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00A928C0F7 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:31:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.561 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.561 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.038, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IM9lx8b6byMG for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-2101.amazon.com [72.21.196.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC0F528C0DD for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:31:32 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,278,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="285795050" Received: from smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com ([172.20.19.24]) by smtp-border-fw-out-2101.iad2.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Jun 2009 01:31:48 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4104.sea5.amazon.com [10.248.163.25]) by smtp-in-0201.sea3.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5O1VdQl002676 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:31:47 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4104.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.25]) with mapi; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:31:39 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:31:38 -0700 Thread-Topic: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0a4TbCKNPleq+T6qr3/Q5y1anIw== Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 01:31:33 -0000 KGFzIGEgY29udHJpYnV0b3IpDQoNCk9rYXksIHdlJ3ZlIGhhZCBzb21lIGVkaXQgcHJvcG9zYWxz IGFuZCBjb21tZW50cy4gSSBoYXZlIGluY29ycG9yYXRlZCB0aGVtIGludG8gdGhlIHRleHQgYmVs b3csIGVkaXRpbmcgYXMgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgZm9yIHN0eWxlLCBncmFtbWFyLCBhbmQgZmxvdy4g R2VuZXJhbGx5IEkgdG9vayBNYXJrJ3MgY29tbWVudHMgb24gUmFuZHkncyBjb21tZW50cy4gSSBh ZGFwdGVkIFBldGVyJ3Mgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIChwb3NpdGl2ZSkgdGV4dCBhcyBhbiBpbnRyb2R1Y3Rp b24sIGFsdGhvdWdoIGl0IGlzIHN1YnN0YW50aWFsbHkgbW9kaWZpZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBpdCAibmHD r3ZlLXVzZXIiIGZyaWVuZGx5IChwZXIgUmFuZHkpIDotKS4NCg0KU28uLi4gaG93IGFib3V0Og0K DQotLQ0KU2VjdGlvbiB4LngueCBBcHBsaWNhYmlsaXR5IG9mIHRoZSBTdWJ0YWcgUmVnaXN0cnkN Cg0KVGhlIExhbmd1YWdlIFN1YnRhZyBSZWdpc3RyeSBpcyB0aGUgc291cmNlIG9mIGRhdGEgZWxl bWVudHMgdXNlZCB0byBjb25zdHJ1Y3QgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFncywgZm9sbG93aW5nIHJ1bGVzIGRl c2NyaWJlZCBpbiB0aGlzIGRvY3VtZW50LiBMYW5ndWFnZSB0YWdzIGFyZSBpbnRlbmRlZCBmb3Ig dXNlIGFzIG1ldGFkYXRhIHRoYXQgZGVzY3JpYmVzIHRoZSBsaW5ndWlzdGljIGF0dHJpYnV0ZXMg b2YgImluZm9ybWF0aW9uIG9iamVjdHMiIChjb250ZW50LCB3aGljaCwgaW4gYWRkaXRpb24gdG8g dGV4dCwgY2FuIGluY2x1ZGUgbW9zdCBtZWRpYSBmb3JtYXRzIHN1Y2ggYXMgdmlkZW8gb3IgYXVk aW8pLiBUaGV5IGFsc28gZm9ybSB0aGUgYmFzaXMgZm9yIGxhbmd1YWdlIGFuZCBsb2NhbGUgbmVn b3RpYXRpb24gaW4gdmFyaW91cyBwcm90b2NvbHMgYW5kIEFQSXMuDQoNClRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBp cyB0aGVyZWZvcmUgYXBwbGljYWJsZSB0byBtYW55IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucyB0aGF0IG5lZWQgc29t ZSBmb3JtIG9mIGxhbmd1YWdlIGlkZW50aWZpY2F0aW9uLCB3aXRoIHRoZXNlIGxpbWl0YXRpb25z Og0KDQogIC0gSXQgaXMgbm90IGRlc2lnbmVkIHRvIGJlIHRoZSBzb2xlIGRhdGEgc291cmNlIGlu IHRoZSBjcmVhdGlvbiBvZiBhIGxhbmd1YWdlIHNlbGVjdGlvbiB1c2VyIGludGVyZmFjZS4gRm9y IGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSByZWdpc3RyeSBkb2VzIG5vdCBjb250YWluIHRyYW5zbGF0aW9ucyBmb3Ig c3VidGFnIGRlc2NyaXB0aW9ucyBvciBmb3IgdGFncyBjb21wb3NlZCBmcm9tIHRoZSBzdWJ0YWdz LiBTb3VyY2VzIGZvciBsb2NhbGl6ZWQgZGF0YSBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkgYXJlIGdl bmVyYWxseSBhdmFpbGFibGUsIG5vdGFibHkgW0NMRFJdLiBOb3IgZG9lcyB0aGUgcmVnaXN0cnkg aW5kaWNhdGUgd2hpY2ggc3VidGFnIGNvbWJpbmF0aW9ucyBhcmUgcGFydGljdWxhcmx5IHVzZWZ1 bCBvciByZWxldmFudC4NCg0KICAgLSBJdCBkb2VzIG5vdCBwcm92aWRlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGlu ZGljYXRpbmcgcmVsYXRpb25zaGlwcyBiZXR3ZWVuIGRpZmZlcmVudCBsYW5ndWFnZXMsIHN1Y2gg YXMgbWlnaHQgYmUgdXNlZCBpbiBhIHVzZXIgaW50ZXJmYWNlIHRvIHNlbGVjdCBsYW5ndWFnZSB0 YWdzIGhpZXJhcmNoaWNhbGx5LCByZWdpb25hbGx5LCBvciBvbiBzb21lIG90aGVyIG9yZ2FuaXph dGlvbmFsIG1vZGVsLg0KDQogICAgLSBJdCBkb2VzIG5vdCBzdXBwbHkgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gYWJv dXQgcG90ZW50aWFsIG92ZXJsYXAgYmV0d2VlbiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgdGFncywgYXMg dGhlIG5vdGlvbiBvZiB3aGF0IGNvbnN0aXR1dGVzIGEgbGFuZ3VhZ2UgaXMgbm90IHByZWNpc2U6 IHNldmVyYWwgZGlmZmVyZW50IGxhbmd1YWdlIHRhZ3MgbWlnaHQgYmUgcmVhc29uYWJsZSBjaG9p Y2VzIGZvciB0aGUgc2FtZSBnaXZlbiBwaWVjZSBvZiBjb250ZW50LiANCg0KICAgIC0gSXQgZG9l cyBub3QgY29udGFpbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBhYm91dCBhcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBmYWxsYmFjayBjaG9p Y2VzIHdoZW4gcGVyZm9ybWluZyBsYW5ndWFnZSBuZWdvdGlhdGlvbi4gQSBnb29kIGZhbGxiYWNr IGxhbmd1YWdlIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGxpbmd1aXN0aWNhbGx5IHVucmVsYXRlZCB0byB0aGUgc3BlY2lm aWVkIGxhbmd1YWdlLiBUaGUgZmFjdCB0aGF0IG9uZSBsYW5ndWFnZSBpcyBvZnRlbiB1c2VkIGFz IGEgYmFja3VwIGxhbmd1YWdlIGZvciBhbm90aGVyIGlzIHVzdWFsbHkgYSByZXN1bHQgb2Ygb3V0 c2lkZSBmYWN0b3JzLCBzdWNoIGFzIGdlb2dyYXBoeSwgaGlzdG9yeSwgb3IgY3VsdHVyZS0tZmFj dG9ycyB3aGljaCBtaWdodCBub3QgYXBwbHkgaW4gYWxsIGNhc2VzLiBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwgbW9z dCBwZW9wbGUgd2hvIHVzZSBCcmV0b24gKGEgQ2VsdGljIGxhbmd1YWdlIHVzZWQgaW4gdGhlIE5v cnRod2VzdCBvZiBGcmFuY2UpIHdvdWxkIHByb2JhYmx5IHByZWZlciB0byBiZSBzZXJ2ZWQgRnJl bmNoIChhIFJvbWFuY2UgbGFuZ3VhZ2UpIGlmIEJyZXRvbiBpc24ndCBhdmFpbGFibGUuDQotLQ0K DQpBZGRpc29uIFBoaWxsaXBzDQpHbG9iYWxpemF0aW9uIEFyY2hpdGVjdCAtLSBMYWIxMjYNCg0K SW50ZXJuYXRpb25hbGl6YXRpb24gaXMgbm90IGEgZmVhdHVyZS4NCkl0IGlzIGFuIGFyY2hpdGVj dHVyZS4NCg0KDQo= From addison@amazon.com Tue Jun 23 19:10:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E793A6EFF for ; 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Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:10:38 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4103.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.24]) with mapi; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:10:38 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Doug Ewell , LTRU Working Group Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:10:36 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0Zah3mnSNsAUhSHSXj5yI5sR1xwACz50g Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D68A1@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:10:32 -0000 PiANCj4gSSBhZ3JlZSBmb3IgdGhlIG1vc3QgcGFydCB3aXRoIE1hcmsncyBzdWdnZXN0ZWQgdGV4 dCwgd2hpY2gNCj4gbWFpbnRhaW5zDQo+IHRoZSBzcGlyaXQgb2YgYnJldml0eSBvZiBBbGV4ZXkn cyBvcmlnaW5hbCB0ZXh0LCBidXQgaXMgbm90IHNvDQo+IGV4Y2VlZGluZ2x5IHRlcnNlIHRoYXQg aXQgcmFpc2VzIG1vcmUgcXVlc3Rpb25zIHRoYW4gaXQgYW5zd2Vycy4NCg0KKzENCg0KPiANCj4g SSBhbHNvIGFncmVlIHdpdGggS2VudCdzIGNvbmNlcm4gYWJvdXQgaW50cm9kdWNpbmcgImJhY2t1 cA0KPiBsYW5ndWFnZXMiIGFzDQo+IGEgbmV3IHRlcm0uICBXZSBpbiB0aGUgV0cgdW5kZXJzdGFu ZCB3aGF0IHRoaXMgbWVhbnMsIGJ1dCBtYW55DQo+IHJlYWRlcnMNCj4gd2lsbCBleHBlY3QgYSBm b3JtYWwgZXhwbGFuYXRpb24uICAiRmFsbGJhY2siIHdvbid0IHF1aXRlIHdvcmsNCj4gZWl0aGVy LA0KPiBzaW5jZSBSRkMgNDY0NyB1c2VzIHRoaXMgdGVybSB0byByZWZlciBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkg dG8gdGhlIHRhZyB5b3UNCj4gZW5kDQo+IHVwIHdpdGggd2hlbiB5b3Ugc3RhcnQgdHJ1bmNhdGlu ZyBzdWJ0YWdzIGZyb20gdGhlIHJpZ2h0LiAgSSB3b25kZXINCj4gaWYNCj4gaXQgd291bGQgYmUg cG9zc2libGUsIGluIHRoaXMgYnJpZWYgcGFyYWdyYXBoLCB0byB0YWxrIGFib3V0IHRoZQ0KPiBj b25jZXB0DQo+IG9mIHRoZSBsYW5ndWFnZShzKSBpbiB3aGljaCBhIHVzZXIgcHJlZmVycyB0byBy ZWNlaXZlIGNvbnRlbnQsDQo+IHdpdGhvdXQNCj4gaGF2aW5nIHRvIGludHJvZHVjZSBhIG5ldyB0 ZXJtIGZvciBpdC4NCj4gDQoNCisxIQ0KDQpTZWUgbXkgc3VnZ2VzdGVkIHJldmlzaW9uIGZvciBh IHN0YWIgYXQgdGhpcy4NCg0KQWRkaXNvbg0K From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Tue Jun 23 19:14:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D933A6EFF for ; 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b=FrXk3iYGLxTpknUW8dEjUmJII5SnnPfg1GLbiq6Uz6bRC5fxj/Nx2JmZVNlxH/UgL9 fYdG56M2ET+hfZ0vR4A9wj4mLeURmqL51V7IPvnzCmyRSrS6Yn1u5IcL+4BcD96bSB+/ wFMJ8O5dxuPwPsKmfhq7hBpYiYACC+zRFrAf0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=YAx5hF3sXy/lpyeiexhAoYyhvb85PyoMUAEuA5v11WYbZeNEIa2uivtVxlem50yx21 DZSx0dd+a8BZLgL7+9wfUAOY/tw60ONFgsHKV4TgKTA83Kcru0EQq9ey6SF5Iewh/HOM Hj+EyvDGsAT1yN4VbYg90U7U6jz8z0+9W1T9I= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.208.8 with SMTP id f8mr1126686ang.42.1245809644907; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:14:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 19:14:04 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8b7318dfb0772e12 Message-ID: <30b660a20906231914v6d98d9bmb3b11caecf2a7559@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636af022e57af12046d0ea95f Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:14:13 -0000 --001636af022e57af12046d0ea95f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looks good, with one additional suggestion. Mark On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 18:31, Phillips, Addison wrote: > language tags, following rules described in this document. Language tags > are intended for use as metadata that describes the linguistic attributes of > "information objects" (content, which, in addition to text, can include most > media formats such as video or audio). > I suggest a simplification of the middle sentence: Language tags are designed for indicating linguistic attributes of various content, including not only text but also most media formats such as video or audio. > They also form the basis for language and locale negotiation in various > protocols and APIs. > > The registry is therefore applicable to many applications that need some > form of language identification, with these limitations: > > - It is not designed to be the sole data source in the creation of a > language selection user interface. For example, the registry does not > contain translations for subtag descriptions or for tags composed from the > subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are generally > available, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag > combinations are particularly useful or relevant. > > - It does not provide information indicating relationships between > different languages, such as might be used in a user interface to select > language tags hierarchically, regionally, or on some other organizational > model. > > - It does not supply information about potential overlap between > different language tags, as the notion of what constitutes a language is not > precise: several different language tags might be reasonable choices for the > same given piece of content. > > - It does not contain information about appropriate fallback choices > when performing language negotiation. A good fallback language might be > linguistically unrelated to the specified language. The fact that one > language is often used as a backup language for another is usually a result > of outside factors, such as geography, history, or culture--factors which > might not apply in all cases. For example, most people who use Breton (a > Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) would probably prefer to be > served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. > -- > --001636af022e57af12046d0ea95f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good, with one additional suggestion.

Mark


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 18:31, Phillips,= Addison <addiso= n@amazon.com> wrote:
language tags, following rules described i= n this document. Language tags are intended for use as metadata that descri= bes the linguistic attributes of "information objects" (content, = which, in addition to text, can include most media formats such as video or= audio).

I suggest a simplification of the middle sentence:
Language tags are designed for indic= ating linguistic attributes of various content, including not only text but also = most media formats such as video or audio.
=C2=A0
They also form the basis fo= r language and locale negotiation in various protocols and APIs.

The registry is therefore applicable to many applications that need some fo= rm of language identification, with these limitations:

=C2=A0- It is not designed to be the sole data source in the creation of a= language selection user interface. For example, the registry does not cont= ain translations for subtag descriptions or for tags composed from the subt= ags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are generally availab= le, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag combination= s are particularly useful or relevant.

=C2=A0 - It does not provide information indicating relationships between = different languages, such as might be used in a user interface to select la= nguage tags hierarchically, regionally, or on some other organizational mod= el.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- It does not supply information about potential overlap betw= een different language tags, as the notion of what constitutes a language i= s not precise: several different language tags might be reasonable choices = for the same given piece of content.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- It does not contain information about appropriate fallback = choices when performing language negotiation. A good fallback language migh= t be linguistically unrelated to the specified language. The fact that one = language is often used as a backup language for another is usually a result= of outside factors, such as geography, history, or culture--factors which = might not apply in all cases. For example, most people who use Breton (a Ce= ltic language used in the Northwest of France) would probably prefer to be = served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available.
--

--001636af022e57af12046d0ea95f-- From cowan@ccil.org Tue Jun 23 21:20:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C506228C2FA for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:20:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AA70GQvKxHco for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from earth.ccil.org (earth.ccil.org [192.190.237.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D5D3A6823 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:20:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowan by earth.ccil.org with local (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1MJJy8-0004O9-BX; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:20:20 -0400 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:20:20 -0400 To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20090624042020.GA13633@mercury.ccil.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.13 (2006-08-11) From: John Cowan Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 04:20:05 -0000 Phillips, Addison scripsit: > Section x.x.x Applicability of the Subtag Registry +1 -- Where the wombat has walked, John Cowan it will inevitably walk again. http://www.ccil.org/~cowan From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Tue Jun 23 22:53:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A71693A6F46 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:53:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.042 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.042 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e8lpFjX+nHjf for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D0463A6F34 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 22:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5O5rOCD021119 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:53:24 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 7342_54c2fd18_6083_11de_9cd5_001d096c5782; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:53:24 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:35051) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:51:25 +0900 Message-ID: <4A41BF49.6070906@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:53:13 +0900 From: =?UTF-8?B?Ik1hcnRpbiBKLiBEw7xyc3Qi?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexey Melnikov References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:53:21 -0000 Hello Alex, [shepherd hat on] I have looked at this mail thread. First, I want to appologise for any comments that you got based on text that was originally from me. Second, I think Addison did a very good job below in getting the wording smoothed and integrating the various comments from the WG. Of course, it's ultimately your call what you want, but I suggets taking the text below as your base. Possible changes might be to remove [CLDR] (as suggested by Randy; personally, I feel that this as well can stay in) or to simplify one sentence as suggested by Mark: >>>> I suggest a simplification of the middle sentence: Language tags are designed for indicating linguistic attributes of various content, including not only text but also most media formats such as video or audio. <<<< The last question then is where to put this section. Given it's focus on applicability for one particular purpose (creating user interfaces), I definitely think that having it as a major section would be wrong. As Section 3 is about the registry, I think making this section 3.9 could be just about right. Regards, Martin. On 2009/06/24 10:31, Phillips, Addison wrote: > (as a contributor) > > Okay, we've had some edit proposals and comments. I have incorporated them into the text below, editing as appropriate for style, grammar, and flow. Generally I took Mark's comments on Randy's comments. I adapted Peter's suggested (positive) text as an introduction, although it is substantially modified to make it "naïve-user" friendly (per Randy) :-). > > So... how about: > > -- > Section x.x.x Applicability of the Subtag Registry > > The Language Subtag Registry is the source of data elements used to construct language tags, following rules described in this document. Language tags are intended for use as metadata that describes the linguistic attributes of "information objects" (content, which, in addition to text, can include most media formats such as video or audio). They also form the basis for language and locale negotiation in various protocols and APIs. > > The registry is therefore applicable to many applications that need some form of language identification, with these limitations: > > - It is not designed to be the sole data source in the creation of a language selection user interface. For example, the registry does not contain translations for subtag descriptions or for tags composed from the subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are generally available, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag combinations are particularly useful or relevant. > > - It does not provide information indicating relationships between different languages, such as might be used in a user interface to select language tags hierarchically, regionally, or on some other organizational model. > > - It does not supply information about potential overlap between different language tags, as the notion of what constitutes a language is not precise: several different language tags might be reasonable choices for the same given piece of content. > > - It does not contain information about appropriate fallback choices when performing language negotiation. A good fallback language might be linguistically unrelated to the specified language. The fact that one language is often used as a backup language for another is usually a result of outside factors, such as geography, history, or culture--factors which might not apply in all cases. For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. > -- > > Addison Phillips > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > Internationalization is not a feature. > It is an architecture. > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 24 00:16:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9FF3A6F52 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:16:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.368 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.368 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.070, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H86yFIbx32ev for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.212]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 759DD3A6F4B for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:16:31 -0700 (PDT) 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BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FGoD5v-i697B for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net (ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net [80.76.149.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B373A68EA for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 00:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c83-248-191-93.bredband.comhem.se ([83.248.191.93]:37863 helo=[192.168.1.2]) by ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJN5I-0000LH-6U; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:39:56 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.19.0.090515 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:39:52 +0200 From: Kent Karlsson To: "Phillips, Addison" , "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0a4TbCKNPleq+T6qr3/Q5y1anIwAM3DL3 In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: 83.248.191.93 X-Scan-Result: No virus found in message 1MJN5I-0000LH-6U. X-Scan-Signature: ch-smtp02.sth.basefarm.net 1MJN5I-0000LH-6U 58d76d3984519ea8a3609747c0dde994 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:41:37 -0000 Den 2009-06-24 03.31, skrev "Phillips, Addison" : > - It does not contain information about appropriate fallback choices when > performing language negotiation. A good fallback language might be > linguistically unrelated to the specified language. The fact that one language > is often used as a backup language for another is usually a result of outside This text uses both "fallback language" and "backup language" (apparently meaning the same thing). Using *two* new terms is not helping here. Note also that such choices are often personal and need not be general for a given language. I would be in favour of dropping that entire bullet point. /kent k From bortzmeyer@nic.fr Wed Jun 24 02:50:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B4103A688F for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:50:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2pWI9mRCGZDj for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (bortzmeyer-1-pt.tunnel.tserv10.par1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f12:420::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D913A6B24 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 02:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 8BFD595814; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:50:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id A0E6F157884; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:40:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:40:47 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20090624094047.GA32625@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.10 (intrepid) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:50:31 -0000 On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 06:31:38PM -0700, Phillips, Addison wrote a message of 30 lines which said: > Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) West Otherwise, good example and good text. +1 From mgunn@egt.ie Wed Jun 24 03:37:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 885433A6F71 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id REt3VFVI25v7 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail27.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail27.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 44B843A6F6E for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 65901 messnum 3129244 invoked from network[86.42.134.164/86-42-134-164-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Jun 2009 10:37:46 -0000 Received: from 86-42-134-164-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.134.164) by mail27.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 65901) with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 10:37:46 -0000 Message-ID: <4A4200C0.5090203@egt.ie> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:32:32 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Constable , "ltru@ietf.org" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090007010207020901090402" Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:37:43 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------090007010207020901090402 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Definitely more positive, only perhaps something needing to be added after "sole", something in the way of "official" or "QQQ-approved", with QQQ slot to be filled in by title of issuing authority? Or if you do not want to do that, then "to be" inserted after "data elements". Only suggesting such changes: I'm easy with things either way, only glad to put end to incredibly long debate. Would be interesting to see stats posted on this list re exact number of participants involved in this debate and from which countries, exactly, they come. mg Scríobh Peter Constable: > It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be something along the lines of the following: > > ------------------------ > The Language Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in constructing language tags, following rules described in this document. The intended use of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Internet and in other application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes of information objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings; or, for expressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such as interfaces requesting HTML content or application resource strings matching certain linguistic attributes. > ------------------------ > > > Peter > > -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * --------------090007010207020901090402 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Definitely more positive, only perhaps something needing to be added after "sole", something in the way of "official" or "QQQ-approved", with QQQ slot to be filled in by title of issuing authority? Or if you do not want to do that, then "to be" inserted after "data elements".

Only suggesting such changes: I'm easy with things either way, only glad to put end to incredibly long debate. Would be interesting to see stats posted on this list re exact number of participants involved in this debate and from which countries, exactly, they come.
mg

Scríobh Peter Constable: 
It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be something along the lines of the following: 

------------------------
The Language Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in constructing language tags, following rules described in this document. The intended use of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Internet and in other application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes of information objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings; or, for expressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such as interfaces requesting HTML content or application resource strings matching certain linguistic attributes.
------------------------


Peter


--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--------------090007010207020901090402-- From mgunn@egt.ie Wed Jun 24 03:41:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28B3D3A6F71 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:41:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.075, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CUw0xK08Vknr for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail25.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail25.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C47333A6A65 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19760 messnum 16497802 invoked from network[86.42.134.164/86-42-134-164-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 24 Jun 2009 10:41:16 -0000 Received: from 86-42-134-164-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.134.164) by mail25.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 19760) with SMTP; 24 Jun 2009 10:41:16 -0000 Message-ID: <4A420192.5010503@egt.ie> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:36:02 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "ltru@ietf.org" References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A4200C0.5090203@egt.ie> In-Reply-To: <4A4200C0.5090203@egt.ie> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080904080005000704040306" Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:41:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080904080005000704040306 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stats set out as in usual lists of ISO participants, thus: USA (3), Finland (2), China (4), etc. Such stats could help increase participation next time around. There is something about seeing your country listed with either zero participation in brackets after its name, or a decent contingent. mg Scríobh Marion Gunn: > Definitely more positive, only perhaps something needing to be added > after "sole", something in the way of "official" or "QQQ-approved", > with QQQ slot to be filled in by title of issuing authority? Or if you > do not want to do that, then "to be" inserted after "data elements". > > Only suggesting such changes: I'm easy with things either way, only > glad to put end to incredibly long debate. Would be interesting to see > stats posted on this list re exact number of participants involved in > this debate and from which countries, exactly, they come. > mg > > Scríobh Peter Constable: >> It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be something along the lines of the following: >> >> ------------------------ >> The Language Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in constructing language tags, following rules described in this document. The intended use of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Internet and in other application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes of information objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings; or, for expressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such as interfaces requesting HTML content or application resource strings matching certain linguistic attributes. >> ------------------------ >> >> >> Peter >> >> -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * --------------080904080005000704040306 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stats set out as in usual lists of ISO participants, thus: USA (3), Finland (2), China (4), etc. Such stats could help increase participation next time around. There is something about seeing your country listed with either zero participation in brackets after its name, or a decent contingent.
mg


Scríobh Marion Gunn:
Definitely more positive, only perhaps something needing to be added after "sole", something in the way of "official" or "QQQ-approved", with QQQ slot to be filled in by title of issuing authority? Or if you do not want to do that, then "to be" inserted after "data elements".

Only suggesting such changes: I'm easy with things either way, only glad to put end to incredibly long debate. Would be interesting to see stats posted on this list re exact number of participants involved in this debate and from which countries, exactly, they come.
mg

Scríobh Peter Constable: 
It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be something along the lines of the following: 

------------------------
The Language Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in constructing language tags, following rules described in this document. The intended use of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Internet and in other application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes of information objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings; or, for expressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such as interfaces requesting HTML content or application resource strings matching certain linguistic attributes.
------------------------


Peter


--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--------------080904080005000704040306-- From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 24 07:45:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BC33A6983 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:45:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.100, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yLnYM8GYDiwB for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:45:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 125D93A68A0 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:45:28 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,283,1243814400"; d="scan'208";a="235934569" Received: from smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com ([10.140.10.25]) by smtp-border-fw-out-9101.sea19.amazon.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 24 Jun 2009 14:44:32 +0000 Received: from ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com (ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com [10.248.163.23]) by smtp-in-1104.vdc.amazon.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5OEiVVP012721 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 verify=FAIL); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:44:32 GMT Received: from EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.30]) by ex-hub-4102.ant.amazon.com ([10.248.163.23]) with mapi; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:44:31 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:44:29 -0700 Thread-Topic: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0sUAcpoKcXy+ZTOCEI89fDWwihgAKJtBw Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA0806E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090624094047.GA32625@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> In-Reply-To: <20090624094047.GA32625@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:45:28 -0000 Tm8uIEluIEZyZW5jaCB5b3Ugd291bGQgc2F5ICJOb3J0aC1XZXN0IiAobm9yZC1vdWVzdCksIGJ1 dCB0aGF0J3Mgbm90IGhvdyBpdCdzIHR5cGljYWxseSBkb25lIGluIEVuZ2xpc2guIEhvd2V2ZXIs IHRoZSBjYXBpdGFsICJOIiBpcyB0b28gZm9ybWFsLiBJdCBzaG91bGQganVzdCBzYXkgIi4uLiBp biB0aGUgbm9ydGh3ZXN0IG9mIEZyYW5jZSIuDQoNCkFkZGlzb24gUGhpbGxpcHMNCkdsb2JhbGl6 YXRpb24gQXJjaGl0ZWN0IC0tIExhYjEyNg0KDQpJbnRlcm5hdGlvbmFsaXphdGlvbiBpcyBub3Qg YSBmZWF0dXJlLg0KSXQgaXMgYW4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlLg0KDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBN ZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogU3RlcGhhbmUgQm9ydHptZXllciBbbWFpbHRvOmJvcnR6bWV5 ZXJAbmljLmZyXQ0KPiBTZW50OiBXZWRuZXNkYXksIEp1bmUgMjQsIDIwMDkgMjo0MSBBTQ0KPiBU bzogUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24NCj4gQ2M6IGx0cnVAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gU3ViamVjdDogUmU6 IEFwcGxpY2FiaWxpdHkgU3RhdGVtZW50IGZvciB0aGUgSUFOQSByZWdpc3RyeQ0KPiBlc3RhYmxp c2hlZCBieSA0NjQ2DQo+IA0KPiBPbiBUdWUsIEp1biAyMywgMjAwOSBhdCAwNjozMTozOFBNIC0w NzAwLA0KPiAgUGhpbGxpcHMsIEFkZGlzb24gPGFkZGlzb25AYW1hem9uLmNvbT4gd3JvdGUNCj4g IGEgbWVzc2FnZSBvZiAzMCBsaW5lcyB3aGljaCBzYWlkOg0KPiANCj4gPiBCcmV0b24gKGEgQ2Vs dGljIGxhbmd1YWdlIHVzZWQgaW4gdGhlIE5vcnRod2VzdCBvZiBGcmFuY2UpDQo+IA0KPiBXZXN0 DQo+IA0KPiBPdGhlcndpc2UsIGdvb2QgZXhhbXBsZSBhbmQgZ29vZCB0ZXh0LiArMQ0K From petercon@microsoft.com Wed Jun 24 07:47:12 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2A823A6F9F for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:47:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.081, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UbN9WGYnBBVD for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD253A6F36 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.69.47) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:43:00 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c107.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.69.47]) with mapi; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:43:00 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Marion Gunn , "ltru@ietf.org" Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 07:42:52 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 Thread-Index: Acn0uFU+IN0JbQS0R4yjBkv62rYp2wAIS+Sg Message-ID: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A4200C0.5090203@egt.ie> <4A420192.5010503@egt.ie> In-Reply-To: <4A420192.5010503@egt.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B0A906107NAEXMSGC117re_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:47:12 -0000 --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B0A906107NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IETF doesn't work like ISO. Representation is not by country, but purely in= dividually. (In some ways, I think IETF would be better if its processes we= re more like ISO's.) Peter From: Marion Gunn [mailto:mgunn@egt.ie] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:36 AM To: ltru@ietf.org Cc: Peter Constable; Kent Karlsson; Phillips, Addison; Alexey Melnikov Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry establish= ed by 4646 Stats set out as in usual lists of ISO participants, thus: USA (3), Finland= (2), China (4), etc. Such stats could help increase participation next tim= e around. There is something about seeing your country listed with either z= ero participation in brackets after its name, or a decent contingent. mg Scr=EDobh Marion Gunn: Definitely more positive, only perhaps something needing to be added after = "sole", something in the way of "official" or "QQQ-approved", with QQQ slot= to be filled in by title of issuing authority? Or if you do not want to do= that, then "to be" inserted after "data elements". Only suggesting such changes: I'm easy with things either way, only glad to= put end to incredibly long debate. Would be interesting to see stats poste= d on this list re exact number of participants involved in this debate and = from which countries, exactly, they come. mg Scr=EDobh Peter Constable: It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be someth= ing along the lines of the following: ------------------------ The Language Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in co= nstructing language tags, following rules described in this document. The i= ntended use of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Intern= et and in other application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes o= f information objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings= ; or, for expressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such = as interfaces requesting HTML content or application resource strings match= ing certain linguistic attributes. ------------------------ Peter -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an Bh=F3thair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * --_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B0A906107NAEXMSGC117re_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

IETF doesn’t work like ISO. Representation is not by c= ountry, but purely individually. (In some ways, I think IETF would be better if its processes were more like ISO’s.)

 

Peter

 

From: Marion Gunn [mailto:mgunn@egt.ie] =
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:36 AM
To: ltru@ietf.org
Cc: Peter Constable; Kent Karlsson; Phillips, Addison; Alexey Melnik= ov
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646

 

Stats set out as in usual lists of = ISO participants, thus: USA (3), Finland (2), China (4), etc. Such stats could = help increase participation next time around. There is something about seeing yo= ur country listed with either zero participation in brackets after its name, o= r a decent contingent.
mg


Scr=EDobh Marion Gunn:

Definitely more positive, only perh= aps something needing to be added after "sole", something in the way = of "official" or "QQQ-approved", with QQQ slot to be fille= d in by title of issuing authority? Or if you do not want to do that, then "= ;to be" inserted after "data elements".

Only suggesting such changes: I'm easy with things either way, only glad to= put end to incredibly long debate. Would be interesting to see stats posted on = this list re exact number of participants involved in this debate and from which countries, exactly, they come.
mg

Scr=EDobh Peter Constable: 

It seems to me that a _positive_ statement of Applicability would be s=
omething along the lines of the following: 
 =
;
------------------------
The Languag=
e Subtag Registry is the sole source of data elements used in constructing =
language tags, following rules described in this document. The intended use=
 of language tags is as metadata elements, for use on the Internet and in o=
ther application contexts, for declaring linguistic attributes of informati=
on objects, such as HTML content or application resource strings; or, for e=
xpressing linguistic attributes in application interfaces, such as interfac=
es requesting HTML content or application resource strings matching certain=
 linguistic attributes.
------------------------<=
/o:p>
 
 
Pet=
er
 
=A0

 

--

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 P=E1irc an Fh=E9ithlinn, Baile an

Bh=F3thair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. =C1tha Cliath, =C9ire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--_000_DDB6DE6E9D27DD478AE6D1BBBB8357956B0A906107NAEXMSGC117re_-- From bortzmeyer@nic.fr Wed Jun 24 10:54:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1E228C4D4 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:54:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0bN3Y5+1g2l2 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.bortzmeyer.org (bortzmeyer-1-pt.tunnel.tserv10.par1.ipv6.he.net [IPv6:2001:470:1f12:420::2]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99C8A3A6B5B for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.bortzmeyer.org (Postfix, from userid 10) id 8AD947400A; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:54:44 +0200 (CEST) Received: by horcrux (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1DED7157884; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:51:05 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:51:05 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer To: "Phillips, Addison" Message-ID: <20090624175105.GA10384@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090624094047.GA32625@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA0806E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA0806E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> X-Transport: UUCP rules X-Operating-System: Ubuntu 8.10 (intrepid) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.18 (2008-05-17) Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:54:30 -0000 On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 07:44:29AM -0700, Phillips, Addison wrote a message of 26 lines which said: > No. In French you would say "North-West" (nord-ouest), but that's > not how it's typically done in English. However, the capital "N" is > too formal. It should just say "... in the northwest of France". Sorry, I was not clear. I wanted to say that Brittany (the region of France where people historically spoke Breton) is in the West, not the Northwest (where Normandy is). From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Wed Jun 24 11:05:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3FCD3A6B3F for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:05:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.582 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.582 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.017, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8eAOhKo82lHK for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38ED53A6CFD for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:05:29 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=DupVNy/QWHoBBgEoeVgXhULU/rpMPUmG40yvcFne8DrQ3+AIrF+5TuKyOp+exv9L; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [76.254.53.143] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MJVzz-0005eR-Rr for ltru@ietf.org; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:11:04 -0400 Message-ID: <007b01c9f4ee$dbbf2220$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A4200C0.5090203@egt.ie> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:11:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968801f5f3ba1aaa6bb753aae0e06822b6b350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 76.254.53.143 Subject: [Ltru] National origins of participants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:05:30 -0000 Hi - As co-chair... > From: "Marion Gunn" > To: "Peter Constable" ; > Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:32 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 ... > Would be interesting to see stats > posted on this list re exact number of participants involved in this > debate and from which countries, exactly, they come. ... Interesting, perhaps, but as co-chair I think it would be both inappropriate and probably more work than it would be worth. This is not ISO or ITU, and we work as individuals, not representatives of some national body. I know the national origins of three participants - others have not volunteered the information and I'm not going to ask. You *can* obtain statistics from IETF meeting attendance. Those numbers can be rather misleading, however, since in many cases the country where someone works is not their country of citizenship, which in turn is not always their country of birth, nor is it necessarily their country of cultural affinity. And if we go by employment, do we use their work location or the headquarters of the firm? Let's not go there. Randy From Karen.Broome@am.sony.com Wed Jun 24 11:31:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6EE428C48B for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:31:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s-wu7B4msiW8 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from VA3EHSOBE001.bigfish.com (va3ehsobe001.messaging.microsoft.com [216.32.180.11]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A058628C4D1 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail182-va3-R.bigfish.com (10.7.14.244) by VA3EHSOBE001.bigfish.com (10.7.40.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.340.0; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:58 +0000 Received: from mail182-va3 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail182-va3-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 016361428294; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:59 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -54 X-BigFish: VPS-54(zz542N1432R1805M9371P1b0bMzz1202hzz1033ILz2fh6bh17ch61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail182-va3 (MessageSwitch) id 1245868316370171_1384; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:56 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (mail8.fw-bc.sony.com [160.33.98.75]) by mail182-va3.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37C5F14F0057; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail1.bc.in.sel.sony.com (mail1.bc.in.sel.sony.com [43.144.65.111]) by mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5OIVte6003289; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:55 GMT Received: from USBMAXIM02.am.sony.com ([43.145.108.26]) by mail1.bc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5OIVoMm012284; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:55 GMT Received: from USBMAXRG02.am.sony.com ([43.145.108.24]) by USBMAXIM02.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:31:50 -0400 Received: from USSDIXRG02.am.sony.com ([43.130.140.32]) by USBMAXRG02.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:31:50 -0400 Received: from USSDIXMS01.am.sony.com ([43.130.140.21]) by USSDIXRG02.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:30:54 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:30:08 -0700 Message-ID: <8D97027965E89F488BC87B919382D9FD0505D354@ussdixms01.am.sony.com> In-Reply-To: <007b01c9f4ee$dbbf2220$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] National origins of participants Thread-Index: Acn09nWV6xLNdskvSsyKR7LpH+QL6AAANEbg References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D5F0B@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com><4A4200C0.5090203@egt.ie> <007b01c9f4ee$dbbf2220$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Broome, Karen" To: "Randy Presuhn" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2009 18:30:54.0695 (UTC) FILETIME=[E8D30F70:01C9F4F9] X-SEL-encryption-scan: scanned Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] National origins of participants X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:31:57 -0000 Randy, I strongly agree that this is not appropriate. I work for a Japanese company in America. My heritage is European. It would be difficult to fit each participant into one neat bucket that would actually have some useful meaning. FYI: Sorry for the absence in my participation with some of the more recent issues. I have made a transition from Sony Pictures to Sony Electronics. I will still be based at Sony Pictures in Los Angeles, but my e-mail address has changed to: karen.broome@am.sony.com. Best regards, Karen Broome Senior Staff, Technology Standards Office Sony Electronics, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Randy Presuhn Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 1:12 PM To: ltru@ietf.org Subject: [Ltru] National origins of participants Hi - As co-chair... > From: "Marion Gunn" > To: "Peter Constable" ; > Cc: "Alexey Melnikov" > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:32 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 ... > Would be interesting to see stats=20 > posted on this list re exact number of participants involved in this=20 > debate and from which countries, exactly, they come. ... Interesting, perhaps, but as co-chair I think it would be both inappropriate and probably more work than it would be worth. This is not ISO or ITU, and we work as individuals, not representatives of some national body. I know the national origins of three participants - others have not volunteered the information and I'm not going to ask. You *can* obtain statistics from IETF meeting attendance. Those numbers can be rather misleading, however, since in many cases the country where someone works is not their country of citizenship, which in turn is not always their country of birth, nor is it necessarily their country of cultural affinity. And if we go by employment, do we use their work location or the headquarters of the firm? Let's not go there. Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Wed Jun 24 11:59:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B2C28C4E6 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:59:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.852 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.852 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.176, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C+lpxvFMmD2G for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.246]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D822928C501 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c37so164074anc.4 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:59:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=9S5ky2KKI0j3LbwVk8mXU9fU9qi05BL2sAEU83po1EM=; b=ggfALnXziJxQsTguNwRBAWxdkMfnR22StccibkxOSDirwS4C+/NN6nEh9ecu1/nt7q zkL/9xmQsO76TkGnzvVLDp7DzcTDI8L2/0VU27wqk7+a1L6vG6tVPth7DgJTixsEfy4Q rKh377U6AbcN0Q5FVeieacODd4KOIHG9OKAho= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=e1mkdjB3LIx2T13MuNCkVINrWocdnrBSAmoh6GGkMS+/nQeYN0q2XHvkg83Dm9b2nN 32AMx7Do52C4TIAgPqdThluUcsqVDjnenPEMC8odmMGhzJ/21CsrZToLbzoEfPWV6tNB 9UK+f/O4rzCpypg3CWD0mqWjIj4EmDES0ZUaY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.252.9 with SMTP id z9mr2231500anh.34.1245869948346; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:59:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090624175105.GA10384@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090624094047.GA32625@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA0806E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <20090624175105.GA10384@laperouse.bortzmeyer.org> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:59:08 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 6574941a829fc6d6 Message-ID: <30b660a20906241159o6ac3726fuc4ab27e07cfeb379@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Stephane Bortzmeyer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016369fa35eb52318046d1cb3e3 Cc: ltru@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:59:46 -0000 --0016369fa35eb52318046d1cb3e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From the geographic center of of France ( http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_de_la_France) -- while there is some dispute about exactly where that is because of different calculations -- you'd head about WNW, so "west" would be better. Mark On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:51, Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 07:44:29AM -0700, > Phillips, Addison wrote > a message of 26 lines which said: > > > No. In French you would say "North-West" (nord-ouest), but that's > > not how it's typically done in English. However, the capital "N" is > > too formal. It should just say "... in the northwest of France". > > Sorry, I was not clear. I wanted to say that Brittany (the region of > France where people historically spoke Breton) is in the West, not the > Northwest (where Normandy is). > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016369fa35eb52318046d1cb3e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From the geographic center of of France (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_de_la_France= ) -- while there is some dispute about exactly where that is because of= different calculations -- you'd head about WNW, so "west" wo= uld be better.

Mark


On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 10:51, Stephane = Bortzmeyer <bortz= meyer@nic.fr> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 07:44:29AM -0700,
=C2=A0Phillips, Addison <addison@amazon.com> wrote
=C2=A0a message of 26 lines which said:

> No. In French you would say "North-West" (nord-ouest), but t= hat's
> not how it's typically done in English. However, the capital "= ;N" is
> too formal. It should just say "... in the northwest of France&qu= ot;.

Sorry, I was not clear. I wanted to say that Brittany (the region of<= br> France where people historically spoke Breton) is in the West, not the
Northwest (where Normandy is).
_________________________________________= ______
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016369fa35eb52318046d1cb3e3-- From cewcathar@hotmail.com Wed Jun 24 16:26:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1144F28C13F for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:26:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.286, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CW+nmBvmrWyH for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.109]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F2C3A65A6 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W23 ([65.55.116.74]) by blu0-omc3-s34.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:26:15 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_0ddea5e7-0208-42ee-9302-1ed85c3d41c5_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.191.67] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:26:14 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Jun 2009 23:26:15.0191 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B102A70:01C9F523] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:26:55 -0000 --_0ddea5e7-0208-42ee-9302-1ed85c3d41c5_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi=2C if the only problem is the use of the terms=2C 'fallback' and 'backup= ' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative lan= guages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' maybe=3B I don't kno= w about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?: =20 "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages (i= n language negotiation). A good alternate might in fact be linguistically = unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for. This is because t= he preference for a particular language alternate is often the result of ou= tside factors--such as geograpphy=2C history=2C or culture--factors which m= ay vary from user to user. For example=2C most people who use Breton (a C= eltic language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of Franc= e) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton= isn't available." =20 (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly). =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com=20 --_0ddea5e7-0208-42ee-9302-1ed85c3d41c5_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi=2C if the only problem is the use of the terms=2C 'fallback' and 'ba= ckup' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative= languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' =3B maybe=3B = I don't know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coas= t?:
 =3B
"It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages (i= n language negotiation). =3B A =3Bgood alternate =3Bmight in fa= ct be linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate fo= r. =3B This is because the preference for a particular language alterna= te =3Bis often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy=2C his= tory=2C or culture--factors which may vary from user to user. =3B = =3B For example=2C most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in Br= ittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of France) would probably prefer = to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available."
 =3B
(hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly).
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

=
= --_0ddea5e7-0208-42ee-9302-1ed85c3d41c5_-- From addison@amazon.com Wed Jun 24 17:35:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41BA328C116 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:35:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -106.506 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.506 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.092, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dMkv3675+iIY for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com (smtp-fw-9101.amazon.com [207.171.184.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F1C3A6D90 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:35:07 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.42,285,1243814400"; 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ESMTP id A7F3E3A6BAE for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.844 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.844 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.168, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IGtfKCwRp11Q for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.240]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87343A6CE5 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c37so259799anc.4 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=Yq8tEiuESXHhmIzziDvCDFbe1NoC94+R3tMomTiV+pE=; b=Wvye8t/07TZVrKXkmf8eELngiiRlIsxZkKszB7rqBftZO2jt8Ln24kwK8vLQpkx5Jr jlCRNa3cNoTs8U2LzF8LSumwPuomE7h2kGVE8+9d7Rx87OU9kK5+JUjxXQmrjYHg3Hmg xhH93pRb1XBb1b2CxrLAU4L3WmqPaDS/YRrRw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=rdoUc1iUH0F09EBQERoS5upPRggxm33MKc/Ix/bttJ7lnSnkV3Fo+PDuVB28OPuZd9 D5XiwWuGVw3i5Gc3rhak6lWlmw8IUCP+G9i7oFkWYRZ0479iffebuKLrtxM4Ok0jsWQ+ tWdPXShBnyoO1PZj1gW5wwTkV6GmGxkJZoMzU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.12.17 with SMTP id 17mr2612520anl.2.1245890398418; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA08A5E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA08A5E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 068b5472e2444243 Message-ID: <30b660a20906241739t664fd602pdad4aae40e6b476d@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: "Phillips, Addison" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e644ddfca0764b046d217615 Cc: CE Whitehead , "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 00:39:48 -0000 --0016e644ddfca0764b046d217615 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation; it isn't needed, and it is late in the game for such changes. Mark On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 17:35, Phillips, Addison wrote= : > I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation altogether. > It really belongs in a discussion of matching. > > > > If we must have it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term =E2=80= =9Cfallback=E2=80=9D > is used extensively with the Lookup matching scheme. But there is a very > precise term we=E2=80=99ve established when talking about the =E2=80=9Cfa= llback in > extremis=E2=80=9D: Section 3.4.1 uses =E2=80=9Cdefault value=E2=80=9D (an= d there is a long > discussion there of the topic). If we must have something like this text, > then perhaps: > > > > -- > > - It does not contain information about appropriate default values to > use in language matching [RFC 4647, Section 3.4.1]. A good default value = for > a particular language request might be linguistically unrelated to the > languages specified in the request. For example, people who use Breton (a > Celtic language used in western France) might prefer to be served French = (a > Romance language) if Breton isn't available. > > -- > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM > *To:* ltru@ietf.org > *Cc:* kent.karlsson14@comhem.se; Phillips, Addison > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry > established by 4646 > > > > > Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and 'backup' > I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative > languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' maybe; I don't > know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?: > > "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages > (in language negotiation). A good alternate might in fact be linguistica= lly > unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for. This is because > the preference for a particular language alternate is often the result of > outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or culture--factors which m= ay > vary from user to user. For example, most people who use Breton (a Celt= ic > language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of France) > would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton > isn't available." > > (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly). > > Best, > > C. E. Whitehead > cewcathar@hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > --0016e644ddfca0764b046d217615 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I also support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation; it isn&#= 39;t needed, and it is late in the game for such changes.

Mark


On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 17:35, Phillips,= Addison <addiso= n@amazon.com> wrote:

I support elim= inating the discussion of language negotiation altogether. It really belongs in a discussion of matching.

=C2=A0<= /p>

If we must hav= e it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term =E2=80=9Cfallback=E2=80=9D is used extensively with the Lookup matching sch= eme. But there is a very precise term we=E2=80=99ve established when talking about the =E2=80= =9Cfallback in extremis=E2=80=9D: Section 3.4.1 uses =E2=80=9Cdefault value=E2=80=9D (and there is a long dis= cussion there of the topic). If we must have something like this text, then perhaps:

=C2=A0<= /p>

--

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 - It does not contain information about appropriate d= efault values to use in language matching [RFC 4647, Section 3.4.1]. A good defaul= t value for a particular language request might be linguistically unrelated t= o the languages specified in the request. For example, people who use Breton = (a Celtic language used in western France) might prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available.

--

=C2=A0<= /p>

Addison Phillip= s

Globalization A= rchitect -- Lab126

=C2=A0

Internati= onalization is not a feature.

It is an archit= ecture.

=C2=A0<= /p>

From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcatha= r@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM
To: ltru@ietf.org=
Cc: k= ent.karlsson14@comhem.se; Phillips, Addison


Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry es= tablished by 4646

=C2=A0


Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and = 9;backup' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternati= ve languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices'=C2=A0 maybe; I don't= know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?:
=C2=A0
"It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languag= es (in language negotiation).=C2=A0 A=C2=A0good alternate=C2=A0might in fact b= e linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for.=C2= =A0 This is because the preference for a particular language alternate=C2=A0is often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or culture--factors which may vary from user to user.=C2=A0=C2=A0 For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in Brittany/on a portion= of the Atlantic coast of France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available."
=C2=A0
(hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly= ).
=C2=A0
Best,
=C2=A0
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmai= l.com


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--0016e644ddfca0764b046d217615-- From doug@ewellic.org Wed Jun 24 18:07:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D06743A6D7C for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:07:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.534 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.534 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.425, BAYES_05=-1.11, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NwJlB30AONFT for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.183]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E5A43A6D29 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12721 invoked from network); 25 Jun 2009 01:06:52 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpauth03.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.183) with ESMTP; 25 Jun 2009 01:06:51 -0000 Message-ID: <1FD45756593E470CA75417D03B45DDC9@DGBP7M81> From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:06:49 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:07:26 -0000 "Phillips, Addison" wrote: > I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation > altogether. It really belongs in a discussion of matching. +1 > If we must have it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. +1 Mark Davis ? wrote: > it is late in the game for such changes. +10 -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From alexey.melnikov@isode.com Thu Jun 25 06:58:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18AA33A6DCA for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:58:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BSW98aqMi5u3 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufus.isode.com (rufus.isode.com [62.3.217.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AAA3A68DC for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.125] (shiny.isode.com [62.3.217.250]) by rufus.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPA id ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:56:53 +0100 Message-ID: <4A4381F7.3050903@isode.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:56:07 +0100 From: Alexey Melnikov User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.7.12) Gecko/20050915 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AA8D686C@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <4A41BF49.6070906@it.aoyama.ac.jp> In-Reply-To: <4A41BF49.6070906@it.aoyama.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Cc: "ltru@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:58:33 -0000 Martin J. D=FCrst wrote: > Hello Alex, > > [shepherd hat on] > I have looked at this mail thread. First, I want to appologise for any=20 > comments that you got based on text that was originally from me. > > Second, I think Addison did a very good job below in getting the=20 > wording smoothed and integrating the various comments from the WG. Of=20 > course, it's ultimately your call what you want, but I suggets taking=20 > the text below as your base. Possible changes might be to remove=20 > [CLDR] (as suggested by Randy; personally, I feel that this as well=20 > can stay in) I kept it. > or to simplify one sentence as suggested by Mark: > > >>>> > I suggest a simplification of the middle sentence: > > Language tags are designed for indicating linguistic attributes of=20 > various content, including not only text but also most media formats=20 > such as video or audio. > <<<< Done. > The last question then is where to put this section. Given it's focus=20 > on applicability for one particular purpose (creating user=20 > interfaces), I definitely think that having it as a major section=20 > would be wrong. > > As Section 3 is about the registry, I think making this section 3.9=20 > could be just about right. From wwwrun@core3.amsl.com Thu Jun 25 07:16:37 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@ietf.org Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 30) id 5FB4828C13A; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:16:37 -0700 (PDT) X-idtracker: yes From: The IESG To: IETF-Announce Message-Id: <20090625141637.5FB4828C13A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:16:37 -0700 (PDT) Cc: Internet Architecture Board , ltru mailing list , ltru chair , RFC Editor Subject: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:16:37 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' as a BCP This document is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alexey Melnikov and Lisa Dusseault. A URL of this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt Technical Summary This document describes the structure, content, construction, and semantics of language tags for use in cases where it is desirable to indicate the language used in an information object. It also describes how to register values for use in language tags and the creation of user-defined extensions for private interchange. This document is an update of RFC4646. The main change is the addition of thousands of three-letter language subtags for languages for which tagging was not possible up to now. Also, the registry format and procedures were adjusted to deal with this change, and to reflect experience from current practice. Working Group Summary The WG process for this document was mostly smooth and revolving around details. There were some highly contentious issues, but for all of them, a solution was found that was acceptable to the involved parties and works for all scenarios identified. Document Quality The IANA Language Subtag Registry, and the language tags that can be formed according to this document and its predecessor, are widely used across the Internet to identify languages, both in implementations (code) and in a wide range of data. Personnel Martin J. Dürst is the document shepherd. Alexey Melnikov is the responsible AD. RFC Editor Note Please move the reference to RFC 2028 to the Informative section. The document has several references to BCP 47. RFC Editor should check if they are appropriate and how to represent them better. There are several cases of mismatched singulars and plurals in the document, so RFC Editor might want to check for these. Please replace the last paragraph of section 6 with 2 paragraphs: OLD: The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval, of the full registry ^ contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents change only occasionally. Changes are announced to . Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full registry. NEW: The registries specified in this document are not suitable for frequent or real-time access to, or retrieval of, the full registry ^ ^ contents. Most applications do not need registry data at all. For others, being able to validate or canonicalize language tags as of a particular registry date will be sufficient, as the registry contents change only occasionally. Changes are announced to . This mailing list is ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ intended for interested organizations and individuals, not for bulk ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ subscription to trigger automatic software updates. The size of the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ registry makes it unsuitable for automatic software updates. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Implementers considering integrating the Language Subtag Registry in ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ an automatic updating scheme are strongly advised to distribute only ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ suitably encoded differences, and only via their own infrastructure, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ not directly from IANA. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Changes, or the absence thereof, can also easily be detected by looking at the 'File-Date' record at the start of the registry, or by using features of the protocol used for downloading, without having to download the full registry. At the time of publication of ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this document IANA is making the Language Tag registry available ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ over HTTP 1.1. The proper way to update a local copy of the Language ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Subtag Registry using HTTP 1.1 is to use a conditional GET [RFC2616]. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please add RFC 2616 to the list of Informative references. Please change Mark Davis's email address to markdavis@google.com. Please insert a new section 3.9 that reads: 3.9. Applicability of the Subtag Registry The Language Subtag Registry is the source of data elements used to construct language tags, following rules described in this document. Language tags are designed for indicating linguistic attributes of various content, including not only text but also most media formats such as video or audio. They also form the basis for language and locale negotiation in various protocols and APIs. The registry is therefore applicable to many applications that need some form of language identification, with these limitations: - It is not designed to be the sole data source in the creation of a language selection user interface. For example, the registry does not contain translations for subtag descriptions or for tags composed from the subtags. Sources for localized data based on the registry are generally available, notably [CLDR]. Nor does the registry indicate which subtag combinations are particularly useful or relevant. - It does not provide information indicating relationships between different languages, such as might be used in a user interface to select language tags hierarchically, regionally, or on some other organizational model. - It does not supply information about potential overlap between different language tags, as the notion of what constitutes a language is not precise: several different language tags might be reasonable choices for the same given piece of content. - It does not contain information about appropriate fallback choices when performing language negotiation. A good fallback language might be linguistically unrelated to the specified language. The fact that one language is often used as a fallback language for another is usually a result of outside factors, such as geography, history, or culture--factors which might not apply in all cases. For example, most people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. From gerard.lang@insee.fr Thu Jun 25 07:51:31 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8723728C1AB for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:51:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u-pp6paC2-U1 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercure.insee.fr (mercure.insee.fr [81.255.68.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 771E228C1A5 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 07:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by mercure.insee.fr (Insee Mail Server) with ESMTP id 5405E4267E for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3205A794024 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BEwspStUO-6g for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06BA1794020 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.52]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 Thread-Index: Acn1LX+ZhujlsZc1T+efvVwagm09QAAbaJUA References: From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2009 14:37:00.0301 (UTC) FILETIME=[66163BD0:01C9F5A2] Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:51:31 -0000 Dear All, 1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another = equivalent way to write the same) or West. But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national = geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that = West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature = des Unit=E9s Territoriales pour la Statistique/ Classification of = territorial units for statistical use) that is defined and used by the = European Union and by the french national statistical institute (INSEE), = we find that under the entry "France" (level 0) we have an entry = "OUEST/WEST" (level 1) consisting of three official administrative = french regions being entries of level 2: "Pays de la Loire", "Bretagne" = and "Poitou-Charentes". So that the region "Bretagne/Brittany" is included in the "french entry" = OUEST/WEST. Some historians would not accept that the administrative = region "Bretagne" is veritably all of the historic territory of the = "Duch=E9 de Bretagne", because this concept includes not only the four = departments forming the today official administrative region Bretagne, = but also a fifth one "Loire-Atlantique", that is adminstratively = included inside the administrative region "Pays de la Loire". But, as = Pays de la Loire is also included in WEST, and moreover the territory = corresponding to "Loire-Atlantique is geographically located south and = not north from the other four "d=E9partements bretons", it is logical to = accept that West is a little better than Northwest for breton ! 2-On another side, I could absolutely not accept the proposition " = Atlantic coast of France" for breton. The reason is that there is an international accepted nomenclature for = "Names and Limits of Oceans and Seas", provided by IHO (International = Hydrographic Organization) That is an international intergouvernemental organisation located in = Monaco. In this nomenclature (that provides for an official classification of = the whole maritime domain of the earth and constitutes a natural = complement for ISO 3166, that provides for an official coding of the = whole land domain of the earth), the whole maritime domain of the world = is divided between the five Oceans (Arctic, Antarctic, Atlantic, Indian, = Pacific) and each Ocean is divided in several parts, some of them being = recognized as Seas. So that, the french coastal Atlantic is very rich, including coasts of = the Metropolitan France (including coasts inside the following Atlantic = divisions:inside Mediterranean Sea, like Corsica, inside North Sea and = La Manche [English Channel], inside Celtic Sea, and inside Golfe de = Gascogne [and following the IHO classification, the coasts of Bretagne = are divided between three touching Seas or divisions: La Manche, Celtic = Sea and Golfe de Gascogne]), but also the coasts of the = Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon, Saint-Martin, Saint-Barth=E9lemy, Guadeloupe = and Martinique Islands ( all situated inside the North Atlantic part of = the Atlantic Ocean, following the IHO classification) and also the = coasts of french Guyana (situated inside the South Atlantic part of the = Atlantic Ocean, following the IHO classification). Moreover, I already explained that AFNOR published in september 2006 a = french experimental standard XP-Z44-020 "Code pour la representation des = noms des oc=E9ans et des mers" (Code for the representation of names of = Oceans and Seas) that also provides for a coding of all entries inside = the IHO classification. Bien cordialement. G=E9rard LANG -----Message d'origine----- De : ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = ltru-request@ietf.org Envoy=E9 : jeudi 25 juin 2009 02:40 =C0 : ltru@ietf.org Objet : Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 If you have received this digest without all the individual message = attachments you will need to update your digest options in your list = subscription. To do so, go to=20 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru Click the 'Unsubscribe or edit options' button, log in, and set "Get = MIME or Plain Text Digests?" to MIME. You can set this option globally = for all the list digests you receive at this point. Send Ltru mailing list submissions to ltru@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ltru-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at ltru-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than = "Re: Contents of Ltru digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 (CE Whitehead) 2. Re: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 (Phillips, Addison) 3. Re: Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 (Mark Davis ?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:26:14 -0400 From: CE Whitehead Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"iso-8859-1" Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and 'backup' = I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative = languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' maybe; I don't = know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?: =20 "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages = (in language negotiation). A good alternate might in fact be = linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for. = This is because the preference for a particular language alternate is = often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or = culture--factors which may vary from user to user. For example, most = people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in Brittany/on a portion = of the Atlantic coast of France) would probably prefer to be served = French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available." =20 (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly). =20 Best, =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com=20 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: = ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:35:01 -0700 From: "Phillips, Addison" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 To: CE Whitehead , "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA08A5E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation altogether. = It really belongs in a discussion of matching. If we must have it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term = ?fallback? is used extensively with the Lookup matching scheme. But = there is a very precise term we?ve established when talking about the = ?fallback in extremis?: Section 3.4.1 uses ?default value? (and there is = a long discussion there of the topic). If we must have something like = this text, then perhaps: -- - It does not contain information about appropriate default values = to use in language matching [RFC 4647, Section 3.4.1]. A good default = value for a particular language request might be linguistically = unrelated to the languages specified in the request. For example, people = who use Breton (a Celtic language used in western France) might prefer = to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. -- Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM To: ltru@ietf.org Cc: kent.karlsson14@comhem.se; Phillips, Addison Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry = established by 4646 Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and 'backup' = I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative = languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' maybe; I don't = know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?: "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages = (in language negotiation). A good alternate might in fact be = linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for. = This is because the preference for a particular language alternate is = often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, history, or = culture--factors which may vary from user to user. For example, most = people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in Brittany/on a portion = of the Atlantic coast of France) would probably prefer to be served = French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available." (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly). Best, C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: = ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700 From: Mark Davis ? Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 To: "Phillips, Addison" Cc: CE Whitehead , "ltru@ietf.org" Message-ID: <30b660a20906241739t664fd602pdad4aae40e6b476d@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" I also support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation; it = isn't needed, and it is late in the game for such changes. Mark On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 17:35, Phillips, Addison = wrote: > I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation = altogether. > It really belongs in a discussion of matching. > > > > If we must have it, it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term = ?fallback? > is used extensively with the Lookup matching scheme. But there is a=20 > very precise term we?ve established when talking about the ?fallback=20 > in > extremis?: Section 3.4.1 uses ?default value? (and there is a long=20 > discussion there of the topic). If we must have something like this=20 > text, then perhaps: > > > > -- > > - It does not contain information about appropriate default values = > to use in language matching [RFC 4647, Section 3.4.1]. A good default=20 > value for a particular language request might be linguistically=20 > unrelated to the languages specified in the request. For example,=20 > people who use Breton (a Celtic language used in western France) might = > prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't = available. > > -- > > > > Addison Phillips > > Globalization Architect -- Lab126 > > > > Internationalization is not a feature. > > It is an architecture. > > > > *From:* CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com] > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:26 PM > *To:* ltru@ietf.org > *Cc:* kent.karlsson14@comhem.se; Phillips, Addison > *Subject:* Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry=20 > established by 4646 > > > > > Hi, if the only problem is the use of the terms, 'fallback' and = 'backup' > I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative=20 > languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' maybe; I=20 > don't know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic = coast?: > > "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative=20 > languages (in language negotiation). A good alternate might in fact=20 > be linguistically unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate=20 > for. This is because the preference for a particular language=20 > alternate is often the result of outside factors--such as geograpphy, = history, or culture--factors which may > vary from user to user. For example, most people who use Breton (a = Celtic > language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of=20 > France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) = > if Breton isn't available." > > (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly). > > Best, > > C. E. Whitehead > cewcathar@hotmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: = ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru End of Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 ************************************ From mgunn@egt.ie Thu Jun 25 11:24:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57DD3A69E1 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:24:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.609 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.609 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.870, BAYES_20=-0.74, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DXA6t9DXVJve for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail20.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail20.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.221]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DA5383A659B for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 97691 messnum 16496087 invoked from network[86.42.184.24/86-42-184-24-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jun 2009 18:16:46 -0000 Received: from 86-42-184-24-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.184.24) by mail20.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 97691) with SMTP; 25 Jun 2009 18:16:46 -0000 Message-ID: <4A43BDD3.4050906@egt.ie> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:11:31 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 'LTRU Working Group' References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> In-Reply-To: <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050406050704050704060905" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:24:36 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050406050704050704060905 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Se zo reizh, Gérard. Thank you for your long, authoritative statement, which underlines the importance, as well as the courtesy, of revealing where one comes from when speaking out to sway LTRU decisions. As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic Congress, I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton Branch for their official position, unless you consider this matter now settled without need to do that? Ken a vo gwelet, mg Scríobh Lang Gérard: > Dear All, > > 1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or > another equivalent way to write the same) or West. > But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french > national geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to > write that West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS > (Nomenclature des Unités Territoriales pour la Statistique/ > Classification of territorial units for statistical use) that is > defined and used by the European Union and by the french national > statistical institute (INSEE)... --------------050406050704050704060905 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Se zo reizh, Gérard.

Thank you for your long, authoritative statement, which underlines the importance, as well as the courtesy, of revealing where one comes from when speaking out to sway LTRU decisions.

As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic Congress, I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton Branch for their official position, unless you consider this matter now settled without need to do that?

Ken a vo gwelet,
mg

Scríobh Lang Gérard:
Dear All,

1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another equivalent way to write the same) or West.
But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Unités Territoriales pour la Statistique/  Classification of territorial units for statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and by the french national statistical institute (INSEE)...


--------------050406050704050704060905-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 25 13:34:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 600DF3A67F2 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.536 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.536 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.460, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_61=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JNPIcP4lvl0W for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.245]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 492B53A67E2 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c37so535374anc.4 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:32:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=Wt8Biqs+2bW25gHr1eqneP5LBqA/y8DYiedpq9dSegg=; b=Gl0EspduCVzWdiFuFftYAo/wTS3HjSvdQtmpj0193r2h3EghVkNn6ZdjcJlANfJhWj hlr3pFNCoFAXg71gXATY9eFHVxbrooYc0SJYvZlxJq410MBOQbbn4l1GWO+khvFVvKat YZRkMxIgXpf/Gbz6fA4ca9WefnLiVVoDXC0h0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=GHzv0h3AvUI5VIv+DKvkD29RauVs/+0Gd4Z6NnABBY81utVN7Ed4TRWx5kGU1mKTVi xjXDUqZKjXBrRO+OKW/Oo/di/VSnMGtC4dpAGPuNXKQ2B66FRfkd63w2NPPESlHBsfc0 74bjeXuqMN+iZkA4asIGMRHS+fXUb+2MoL3ew= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.92.2 with SMTP id p2mr3783245anb.7.1245955148709; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:39:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4A43BDD3.4050906@egt.ie> References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> <4A43BDD3.4050906@egt.ie> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:39:08 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 91560e20ffd69e87 Message-ID: <30b660a20906251139i1f22aadahfcbe5ef0d8677cb5@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Marion Gunn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e645ab300b81a9046d308a35 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 20:34:26 -0000 --0016e645ab300b81a9046d308a35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While it should be "in western France" or even just "in France", that will have to await a future version (see below). On the other hand, it is not as if this parenthetical remark in an example will cause any real problem with interpretation of the specification. Mark See the following: On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 07:16, The IESG wrote: The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' > txt> as a BCP > > This document is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working > Group. ... > result of outside factors, such as geography, history, or culture--factor= s > which might not apply in all cases. For example, most people who use > Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest of France) would probably > prefer to be served French(a Romance language) if Breton isn't available. Mark On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:11, Marion Gunn wrote: > Se zo reizh, G=C3=A9rard. > > Thank you for your long, authoritative statement, which underlines the > importance, as well as the courtesy, of revealing where one comes from wh= en > speaking out to sway LTRU decisions. > > As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic Congres= s, > I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton Branch for > their official position, unless you consider this matter now settled with= out > need to do that? > > Ken a vo gwelet, > mg > > Scr=C3=ADobh Lang G=C3=A9rard: > > Dear All, > > 1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another > equivalent way to write the same) or West. > But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national > geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West= is > a better choice, because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Unit= =C3=A9s > Territoriales pour la Statistique/ Classification of territorial units f= or > statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and by th= e > french national statistical institute (INSEE)... > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > --0016e645ab300b81a9046d308a35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While it should be "in western France" or even just "in Fran= ce", that will have to await a future version (see below). On the othe= r hand, it is not as if this parenthetical remark in an example will cause = any real problem with interpretation of the specification.

Mark

See the following:


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 07:16, The IESG <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:
The IESG has app= roved the following document:

- 'Tags for Identifying Languages '
=C2=A0 <draft-ietf-lt= ru-4646bis-23.
>
> txt> as a BCP
>
> This docume= nt is the product of the Language Tag Registry Update Working
> Group= .

...
> result of outside factors, such as geography, history, or c= ulture--factors
> which might not apply in all cases. For example, mo= st people who use
> Breton (a Celtic language used in the Northwest o= f France) would probably
> prefer to be served French(a Romance language) if Breton isn't ava= ilable.


Mark


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 11:11, Marion Gu= nn <mgunn@egt.ie&g= t; wrote:
=20 =20
Se zo reizh, G=C3=A9rard.

Thank you for your long, authoritative statement, which underlines the importance, as well as the courtesy, of revealing where one comes from when speaking out to sway LTRU decisions.

As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic Congress, I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton Branch for their official position, unless you consider this matter now settled without need to do that?

Ken a vo gwelet,
mg

Scr=C3=ADobh Lang G=C3=A9rard:
Dear All,

1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another equivalent way to write the same) or West.
But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Unit=C3=A9s Territoriales pour la Statistique/=C2=A0 Classification of territorial units for statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and by the french national statistical institute (INSEE)...



_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


--0016e645ab300b81a9046d308a35-- From mgunn@ucd.ie Thu Jun 25 08:52:57 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2393A6AA0 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:52:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.81 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.81 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-1.11, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8leWz2yV3uuV for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:52:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail24.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail24.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.53]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C0D6D3A687F for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 50256 messnum 11762555 invoked from network[86.42.182.225/86-42-182-225-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 25 Jun 2009 15:45:15 -0000 Received: from 86-42-182-225-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.182.225) by mail24.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 50256) with SMTP; 25 Jun 2009 15:45:15 -0000 Message-ID: <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:39:59 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= , ltru@ietf.org References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:40:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 19:31:43 -0000 Se zo reizh, Gérard. Thank you for your long, authoritative statement, which underlines the importance, as well as the courtesy of revealing where one comes from when speaking out to sway LTRU decisions. As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic Congress, I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton Branch for their official position, unless you consider this matter now settled without need to do that? Ken a vo gwelet, mg Scríobh Lang Gérard: > Dear All, > > 1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another equivalent way to write the same) or West. > But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Unités Territoriales pour la Statistique/ Classification of territorial units for statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and by the french national statistical institute (INSEE)... From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 25 14:50:49 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3FF3A67D8 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:50:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.166 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.166 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.433, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RcEAyPd0miJe for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6989C3A68F5 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=sWMUiCbh8Uc3EwPAbaNrMFSvXKLUawwjqf9OV4Fhp1hN18nw+O3FSSRMncgyqbsU; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.52.113] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MJw7L-0000Xl-Gm for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:04:23 -0400 Message-ID: <007a01c9f5d8$a1810ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra><4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> <4A43BDD3.4050906@egt.ie> <30b660a20906251139i1f22aadahfcbe5ef0d8677cb5@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:05:11 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968da179c2b371055b5a866b8f326b2c981350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.52.113 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:50:49 -0000 Hi - > From: "Mark Davis ⌛" > To: "Marion Gunn" > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:39 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 > > While it should be "in western France" or even just "in France", that will > have to await a future version (see below). On the other hand, it is not as > if this parenthetical remark in an example will cause any real problem with > interpretation of the specification. As co-chair: Replacing "the Northwest of" with "in western" could reasonably be taken care of during "AUTH48", subject to the discretion of the document's editors and the RFC editor. (1) there seems to be no disagreement that this would be *slightly* more correct (2) the change would have no normative consequence whatsoever (3) the change is highly localized Randy From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 25 14:56:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0789B3A689D for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:56:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.815 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.815 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.139, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Al38Yoaz4N2u for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.246]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F09CE3A6840 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c37so558643anc.4 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:56:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=eT2MX8JIQkk+XnqerPwP+BskX17NJRMMLqcCUdyX1i8=; b=eBH077yWerKDuojMgJha5OEVGTC2YpWKdNDomjXyevHgUHxjnSu0aqeItydwZzaRNA 3arzBhm4kzqW0rJviMdRSeZuqBfmTOoWwSk21H7tjvvwNRMxVKD+hgU1VpduAdWxVD37 341qChVW5PGWw6iAPXfyzB3PLytbTb0yX445g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=uxJhCPlqWn527Tj7dZNTATTnlLwB7TfJzIiVWseYP1L/V/Es01FDTlXkdUepU8lN7H uNq4q+W9uNlhnYQY9Pn9UuqOzgnuVZvwEo2vyVi4+Nbkv65yEODbR1FdFGy0urw8n5HV ZHfTOeCYjmZArwYtq/HBIg4qoM1WbgslSMHn0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.141.15 with SMTP id o15mr4035236and.20.1245966959780; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:55:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <007a01c9f5d8$a1810ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> <4A43BDD3.4050906@egt.ie> <30b660a20906251139i1f22aadahfcbe5ef0d8677cb5@mail.gmail.com> <007a01c9f5d8$a1810ca0$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:55:58 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 8c9053abdd10d2f9 Message-ID: <30b660a20906251455o77f772ffv7b914e2123cd88db@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Randy Presuhn Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e640cc180aa778046d334a1f Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:56:13 -0000 --0016e640cc180aa778046d334a1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If that can be done, then great. I agree with the reasoning. Mark On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 14:05, Randy Presuhn wrote: > Hi - > > > From: "Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B" > > To: "Marion Gunn" > > Cc: "LTRU Working Group" > > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:39 AM > > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" > andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 > > > > While it should be "in western France" or even just "in France", that > will > > have to await a future version (see below). On the other hand, it is no= t > as > > if this parenthetical remark in an example will cause any real problem > with > > interpretation of the specification. > > As co-chair: > > Replacing "the Northwest of" with "in western" could reasonably > be taken care of during "AUTH48", subject to the discretion of > the document's editors and the RFC editor. > > (1) there seems to be no disagreement that this would be > *slightly* more correct > > (2) the change would have no normative consequence whatsoever > > (3) the change is highly localized > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016e640cc180aa778046d334a1f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If that can be done, then great. I agree with the reasoning.

Mark


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 14:05, Randy Pre= suhn <= randy_presuhn@mindspring.com> wrote:
Hi -

> From: "Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B" <mark@macchiato.com>
> To: "Marion Gunn" <= mgunn@egt.ie>
> Cc: "LTRU Working Group" <ltru@ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton&qu= ot; andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63
>
> While it should be "in western France" or even just "in= France", that will
> have to await a future version (see below). On the other hand, it is n= ot as
> if this parenthetical remark in an example will cause any real problem= with
> interpretation of the specification.

As co-chair:

Replacing "the Northwest of" with "in western" could re= asonably
be taken care of during "AUTH48", subject to the discretion of the document's editors and the RFC editor.

(1) =C2=A0there seems to be no disagreement that this would be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 *slightly* more correct

(2) =C2=A0the change would have no normative consequence whatsoever

(3) =C2=A0the change is highly localized

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016e640cc180aa778046d334a1f-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 25 14:59:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D503A68B1 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:59:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PB5q+4QocvhU for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3CFA3A6941 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:58:47 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=i4qf0AZH3J4/kO4IBTDswp23I7X1z7cBORUlqMRSJRcQM8GFE6C70ljIdQcP/ecM; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.38.145.135] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MJsjL-0004UA-3U for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 13:27:23 -0400 Message-ID: <001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: "LTRU Working Group" References: <20090625141637.5FB4828C13A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 10:28:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69683ec66f735335098ae10bd9c4c9bcd548350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.38.145.135 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:59:13 -0000 Hi - > From: "The IESG" > To: "IETF-Announce" > Cc: "Internet Architecture Board" ; "ltru mailing list" ; "ltru chair" ; "RFC Editor" > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:16 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP > > The IESG has approved the following document: > > - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' > as a BCP ... Congratulations, all! I'd like to thank document shepherd and co-chair Martin Duerst, our AD Alexy Melnikov, and our Apps Area reviewer for their patience during these last few weeks. I'd like to thank the entire working group for all the time and energy invested in this effort. But most of all, I'd like to thank editors Addison Phillips and Mark Davis for patiently wielding the pen. There's still a little more to go - the infamous "AUTH48" has yet to happen, but we're getting really really close to done! Randy From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 25 14:59:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF62E3A69DE for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.325, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tEAPjA6eTRe0 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.64]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A209A3A688B for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=g7jxovAOj9buhl4heOnEcBq5gXvNsbEsMsYpnkEuK5B8mQtHdnTXpAGGwW1l98eU; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.52.113] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-curtail.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MJw7B-0007vm-Ei for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:04:13 -0400 Message-ID: <007901c9f5d8$9a90ed20$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:04:59 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf6968e63f47f175a13835debfe4b39fbc43fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.52.113 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 21:59:30 -0000 Hi - > From: "Marion Gunn" > To: "Lang Gérard" ; > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:39 AM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 ... > As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic > Congress, I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton > Branch for their official position, unless you consider this matter now > settled without need to do that? ... As co-chair: Since there is no liaison relationship between the IETF and either of those organizations, this tactic is quite inappropriate. Comments from knowledgeable contributors are welcome, but wave your hats somewhere else. If you want to set up a liaison relationship, please go to the IAB. It is in charge of liaison relationships. We can't help you here. Randy From cewcathar@hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 15:18:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87BF93A6840 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:18:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.641 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.641 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.457, BAYES_40=-0.185, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ywAKuPvMh6k6 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s19.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s19.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.94]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E91D3A697B for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W8 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s19.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:17:05 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_13436845-64af-452e-9308-1fe03b6efb07_" X-Originating-IP: [168.12.253.82] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:17:05 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2009 22:17:05.0480 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC0E4480:01C9F5E2] Subject: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:18:21 -0000 --_13436845-64af-452e-9308-1fe03b6efb07_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry M. Gerard=2C my mistake in mentioning the Atlantic=3B I believe I sai= d that Bretagne was located 'on a portion of the Atlantic coast' and not it= s entirety but I only said that to avoid taking a stand on West versus Nort= hwest=2C and for no other reason. Thanks for your information on the coast = of Bretagne. =20 There was no intention to equate Bretagne with the entire French Atlantic C= oastal area. =20 My apologies. =20 I do not think it matters whether we make Bretagne located in the West or N= orthwest=2C of course=2C and I am glad that is the general consensus=2C and= if we replace Northwest with West that is fine with me. =20 =20 Best=2C =20 =20 --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com=20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 From: Lang G=E9rard =20 Date: Thu=2C 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200=20 Dear All=2C 1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another equ= ivalent way to write the same) or West. But=2C in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national = geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West i= s a better choice=2C because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Uni= t=E9s Territoriales pour la Statistique/ Classification of territorial uni= ts for statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and = by the french national statistical institute (INSEE)=2C we find that under = the entry "France" (level 0) we have an entry "OUEST/WEST" (level 1) consis= ting of three official administrative french regions being entries of level= 2: "Pays de la Loire"=2C "Bretagne" and "Poitou-Charentes". So that the region "Bretagne/Brittany" is included in the "french entry" OU= EST/WEST. Some historians would not accept that the administrative region = "Bretagne" is veritably all of the historic territory of the "Duch=E9 de Br= etagne"=2C because this concept includes not only the four departments form= ing the today official administrative region Bretagne=2C but also a fifth o= ne "Loire-Atlantique"=2C that is adminstratively included inside the admini= strative region "Pays de la Loire". But=2C as Pays de la Loire is also incl= uded in WEST=2C and moreover the territory corresponding to "Loire-Atlantiq= ue is geographically located south and not north from the other four "d=E9= partements bretons"=2C it is logical to accept that West is a little better= than Northwest for breton ! 2-On another side=2C I could absolutely not accept the proposition " Atlant= ic coast of France" for breton. The reason is that there is an international accepted nomenclature for "Nam= es and Limits of Oceans and Seas"=2C provided by IHO (International Hydrogr= aphic Organization) That is an international intergouvernemental organisation located in Monaco= . In this nomenclature (that provides for an official classification of the w= hole maritime domain of the earth and constitutes a natural complement for = ISO 3166=2C that provides for an official coding of the whole land domain o= f the earth)=2C the whole maritime domain of the world is divided between t= he five Oceans (Arctic=2C Antarctic=2C Atlantic=2C Indian=2C Pacific) and e= ach Ocean is divided in several parts=2C some of them being recognized as S= eas. So that=2C the french coastal Atlantic is very rich=2C including coasts of = the Metropolitan France (including coasts inside the following Atlantic div= isions:inside Mediterranean Sea=2C like Corsica=2C inside North Sea and La = Manche [English Channel]=2C inside Celtic Sea=2C and inside Golfe de Gasco= gne [and following the IHO classification=2C the coasts of Bretagne are div= ided between three touching Seas or divisions: La Manche=2C Celtic Sea and = Golfe de Gascogne])=2C but also the coasts of the Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon= =2C Saint-Martin=2C Saint-Barth=E9lemy=2C Guadeloupe and Martinique Islands= ( all situated inside the North Atlantic part of the Atlantic Ocean=2C fo= llowing the IHO classification) and also the coasts of french Guyana (situa= ted inside the South Atlantic part of the Atlantic Ocean=2C following the I= HO classification). Moreover=2C I already explained that AFNOR published in september 2006 a fr= ench experimental standard XP-Z44-020 "Code pour la representation des noms= des oc=E9ans et des mers" (Code for the representation of names of Oceans = and Seas) that also provides for a coding of all entries inside the IHO cla= ssification. Bien cordialement. G=E9rard LANG --_13436845-64af-452e-9308-1fe03b6efb07_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry M. Gerard=2C my mistake in mentioning= the Atlantic=3B I believe I said that Bretagne was located 'on a portion o= f the Atlantic coast' and not its entirety but I only said that to avoid ta= king a stand on West versus Northwest=2C and for no other reason. Thanks fo= r your information on the coast of Bretagne.

 =3B
There was no intention to equate Bretagn= e with the entire French Atlantic Coastal area.
 =3B
My apologies.
 =3B
I do not think it matters whether we mak= e Bretagne located in the West or Northwest=2C of course=2C and I am glad t= hat is the general consensus=2C and if we replace Northwest with West that = is fine with me.
 =3B
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
 =3B
--C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotma= il.com
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
 =3B
From: Lang G=E9rard <=3Bgera= rd.lang at insee.fr>=3B
Date: Thu=2C 25 Jun 2009 16:37:00 +0200 
Dear All=2C

1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or another equ=
ivalent way to write the same) or West.
But=2C in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french national =
geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write that West i=
s a better choice=2C because inside the official NUTS (Nomenclature des Uni=
t=E9s Territoriales pour la Statistique/  Classification of territorial uni=
ts for statistical use) that is defined and used by the European Union and =
by the french national statistical institute (INSEE)=2C we find that under =
the entry "France" (level 0) we have an entry "OUEST/WEST" (level 1) consis=
ting of three official administrative french regions being entries of level=
 2: "Pays de la Loire"=2C "Bretagne" and "Poitou-Charentes".
So that the region "Bretagne/Brittany" is included in the "french entry" OU=
EST/WEST.  Some historians would not accept that the administrative region =
"Bretagne" is veritably all of the historic territory of the "Duch=E9 de Br=
etagne"=2C because this concept includes not only the four departments form=
ing the today official administrative region Bretagne=2C but also a fifth o=
ne "Loire-Atlantique"=2C that is adminstratively included inside the admini=
strative region "Pays de la Loire". But=2C as Pays de la Loire is also incl=
uded in WEST=2C and moreover the territory corresponding to "Loire-Atlantiq=
ue is geographically  located south and not north from the other four "d=E9=
partements bretons"=2C it is logical to accept that West is a little better=
 than Northwest for breton !

2-On another side=2C I could absolutely not accept the proposition " Atlant=
ic coast of France" for breton.
The reason is that there is an international accepted nomenclature for "Nam=
es and Limits of Oceans and Seas"=2C provided by IHO (International Hydrogr=
aphic Organization)
That is an international intergouvernemental organisation located in Monaco=
.
In this nomenclature (that provides for an official classification of the w=
hole maritime domain of the earth and constitutes a natural complement for =
ISO 3166=2C that provides for an official coding of the whole land domain o=
f the earth)=2C the whole maritime domain of the world is divided between t=
he five Oceans (Arctic=2C Antarctic=2C Atlantic=2C Indian=2C Pacific) and e=
ach Ocean is divided in several parts=2C some of them being recognized as S=
eas.

So that=2C the french coastal Atlantic is very rich=2C including coasts of =
the Metropolitan France (including coasts inside the following Atlantic div=
isions:inside Mediterranean Sea=2C like Corsica=2C inside North Sea and La =
Manche [English Channel]=2C inside Celtic Sea=2C  and inside Golfe de Gasco=
gne [and following the IHO classification=2C the coasts of Bretagne are div=
ided between three touching Seas or divisions: La Manche=2C Celtic Sea and =
Golfe de Gascogne])=2C but also the coasts of the Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon=
=2C Saint-Martin=2C Saint-Barth=E9lemy=2C Guadeloupe and Martinique Islands=
 ( all situated  inside the North Atlantic part of the Atlantic Ocean=2C fo=
llowing the IHO classification) and also the coasts of french Guyana (situa=
ted inside the South Atlantic part of the Atlantic Ocean=2C following the I=
HO classification).
Moreover=2C I already explained that AFNOR published in september 2006 a fr=
ench experimental standard XP-Z44-020 "Code pour la representation des noms=
 des oc=E9ans et des mers" (Code for the representation of names of Oceans =
and Seas) that also provides for a coding of all entries inside the IHO cla=
ssification.

Bien cordialement.
G=E9rard LANG

= --_13436845-64af-452e-9308-1fe03b6efb07_-- From cewcathar@hotmail.com Thu Jun 25 15:39:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB2E33A6976 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:39:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.686 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.686 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.088, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axOkzwVwTvAu for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:39:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s16.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s16.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.91]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A74163A6811 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W13 ([65.55.116.73]) by blu0-omc3-s16.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:37:31 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_a998ce26-e0bd-4758-86a5-ab55df0ab286_" X-Originating-IP: [168.12.253.82] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:37:31 -0400 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906241739t664fd602pdad4aae40e6b476d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA08A5E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906241739t664fd602pdad4aae40e6b476d@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Jun 2009 22:37:31.0539 (UTC) FILETIME=[86D80630:01C9F5E5] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:39:29 -0000 --_a998ce26-e0bd-4758-86a5-ab55df0ab286_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for having suggested 'alternate.' The reference to RFC 4647 seems fi= ne=2C if it's needed--although you already say at the beginning of the draf= t that the draft is to be used together with RFC 4647. But I am confused t= otally about the 'applicability statement' anyway as I did not find it in t= he draft. It's finished? No further discussion? (Sorry to take so long to get back.) =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com =20 =20 =20 Date: Wed=2C 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry establish= ed by 4646 From: mark@macchiato.com To: addison@amazon.com CC: cewcathar@hotmail.com=3B ltru@ietf.org I also support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation=3B it isn= 't needed=2C and it is late in the game for such changes. Mark On Wed=2C Jun 24=2C 2009 at 17:35=2C Phillips=2C Addison wrote: I support eliminating the discussion of language negotiation altogether. It= really belongs in a discussion of matching. =20 If we must have it=2C it is useful to glance at RFC 4647. The term =93fallb= ack=94 is used extensively with the Lookup matching scheme. But there is a = very precise term we=92ve established when talking about the =93fallback in= extremis=94: Section 3.4.1 uses =93default value=94 (and there is a long d= iscussion there of the topic). If we must have something like this text=2C = then perhaps: =20 -- - It does not contain information about appropriate default values to u= se in language matching [RFC 4647=2C Section 3.4.1]. A good default value f= or a particular language request might be linguistically unrelated to the l= anguages specified in the request. For example=2C people who use Breton (a = Celtic language used in western France) might prefer to be served French (a= Romance language) if Breton isn't available. -- =20 Addison Phillips Globalization Architect -- Lab126 =20 Internationalization is not a feature. It is an architecture. (NOTE: I botched the text below anyway (I wrote it at five minutes till closing ye= sterday)=3B I do not think 'alternative' really goes at all--unless we said= "appropriate alternatives to the primary language" but otherwise it would = be "appropriate alternates" ) =20 From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday=2C June 24=2C 2009 4:26 PM To: ltru@ietf.org Cc: kent.karlsson14@comhem.se=3B Phillips=2C Addison=20 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry establish= ed by 4646 =20 Hi=2C if the only problem is the use of the terms=2C 'fallback' and 'backup= ' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate alternative lan= guages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' maybe=3B I don't kno= w about West and Northwest really I'm confused try Atlantic coast?: =20 "It does not contain information about appropriate alternative languages (i= n language negotiation). A good alternate might in fact be linguistically = unrelated to the language it serves as an alternate for. This is because t= he preference for a particular language alternate is often the result of ou= tside factors--such as geograpphy=2C history=2C or culture--factors which m= ay vary from user to user. For example=2C most people who use Breton (a C= eltic language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of Franc= e) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if Breton= isn't available." =20 (hope I've used 'alternate' and 'alternative' correctly). =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com=20 _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --_a998ce26-e0bd-4758-86a5-ab55df0ab286_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry =3Bfor having suggested =3B'alternate.' =3B The = =3Breference to RFC 4647 =3Bseems fine=2C if it's needed--although you = already say at the beginning of the draft that =3Bthe draft =3Bis t= o be used together with RFC 4647. =3B But =3BI am confused totally = about the 'applicability statement' anyway as I did not find it in the draf= t. =3BIt's =3Bfinished? =3B No =3Bfurther discussion?
(Sorry to take so long to get back.)
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com
 =3B
 =3B
&n= bsp=3B
Date: Wed=2C 24 Jun 2009 17:39:58 -0700
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Ap= plicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646
From: ma= rk@macchiato.com
To: addison@amazon.com
CC: cewcathar@hotmail.com=3B = ltru@ietf.org

I also support eliminating the discussion of language = negotiation=3B it isn't needed=2C and it is late in the game for such chang= es.

Mark



On Wed=2C Jun 24=2C 2009 at 17:35=2C Phillips= =2C Addison <=3Badd= ison@amazon.com>=3B wrote:
I support= eliminating the discussion of language negotiation altogether. It really b= elongs in a discussion of matching.
 =3B
If we must have it=2C it is useful to= glance at RFC 4647. The term =93fallback=94 is used extensively with the L= ookup matching scheme. But there is a very precise term we=92ve established= when talking about the =93fallback in extremis=94: Section 3.4.1 uses =93d= efault value=94 (and there is a long discussion there of the topic). If we = must have something like this text=2C then perhaps:
 =3B
--
 = =3B =3B =3B - It does not contain information about appropriate def= ault values to use in language matching [RFC 4647=2C Section 3.4.1]. A good= default value for a particular language request might be linguistically un= related to the languages specified in the request. For example=2C people wh= o use Breton (a Celtic language used in western France) might prefer to be = served French (a Romance language) if Breton isn't available.
--
 =3B
Addison Phillips
Globalization Architect -- Lab126
 =3B
Internationalization is no= t a feature.
It is an architecture.
(NOTE:
I botched the text below anyway (I wrote it at five minutes till closi= ng yesterday)=3B I do not think 'alternative' really goes at all--unless we= said "appropriate alternatives to the primary language" but otherwise it w= ould be "appropriate alternates" =3B )
 =3B
From: CE Whitehead [mailto:cewcathar@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday=2C June 24=2C 2009 = 4:26 PM
To: ltru@ietf.orgCc: kent.karlsson14@co= mhem.se=3B Phillips=2C Addison=20

Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement f= or the IANA registry established by 4646

 =3B


Hi=2C if the only problem is the use of the terms=2C 'fallb= ack' and 'backup' I'd change 'appropriate fallback choices' to 'appropriate= alternative languages' or 'appropriate alternative language choices' = =3B maybe=3B I don't know about West and Northwest really I'm confused try = Atlantic coast?:
 =3B
"It does not contain information about appr= opriate alternative languages (in language negotiation). =3B A =3Bg= ood alternate =3Bmight in fact be linguistically unrelated to the langu= age it serves as an alternate for. =3B This is because the preference f= or a particular language alternate =3Bis often the result of outside fa= ctors--such as geograpphy=2C history=2C or culture--factors which may vary = from user to user. =3B =3B For example=2C most people who use Breto= n (a Celtic language used in Brittany/on a portion of the Atlantic coast of= France) would probably prefer to be served French (a Romance language) if = Breton isn't available."
 =3B
(hope I've used 'alternate' and 'al= ternative' correctly).
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehea= d
cewcathar@hotmail.com


_________________________= ______________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru


= --_a998ce26-e0bd-4758-86a5-ab55df0ab286_-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Thu Jun 25 16:15:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A6C93A690C for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.339 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.339 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.260, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OuXOA1ggdUuN for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:15:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.67]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2B4E3A6825 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 16:15:54 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=i797jrvivi3ZqHP2b0Zzim8lyBep5PRwSWX5nzCiSb1nXiy1ZeyhuNcSIB8Gbg4o; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.52.113] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-scoter.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MJxoC-00046G-TS for ltru@ietf.org; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 18:52:45 -0400 Message-ID: <011f01c9f5e7$c4085260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <4D25F22093241741BC1D0EEBC2DBB1DA01AAA08A5E@EX-SEA5-D.ant.amazon.com> <30b660a20906241739t664fd602pdad4aae40e6b476d@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 15:53:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf69683afecaf79e3427e53795071529fdaf62350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.52.113 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:15:55 -0000 Hi - > From: "CE Whitehead" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 3:37 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 ... > But I am confused totally about the 'applicability statement' anyway as I did not > find it in the draft. It was added via the RFC editor note in the IESG "protocol action" announcement. All that is left before publication is "AUTH48" - that's the 48-hour (but sometimes much longer) period during which the editors verify that the RFC editor didn't inadvertantly break something during the editing process. > It's finished? As far as the WG is concerned, yes. We're just waiting for the publication wheels to turn. Sometimes they move slowly, sometimes they move with astonishing speed. In this particular case, I'm not aware of anything that would slow down publication, but I know better than to guess when it will actually be published. > No further discussion? There's not much point in it. In a separate thread, we'll take up the question of whether the WG should re-charter. Randy From duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp Thu Jun 25 17:46:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 674F43A6A43 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.046 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.046 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.164, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HZHAZKgJg7+s for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.251.41]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6E73A6A12 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 17:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp (scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp [133.2.253.159]) by scmailgw01.scop.aoyama.ac.jp (secret/secret) with SMTP id n5Q0kWlN003394 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:46:32 +0900 Received: from (unknown [133.2.206.133]) by scmse02.scbb.aoyama.ac.jp with smtp id 06c0_cb36f798_61ea_11de_ba39_001d096c5782; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:46:32 +0900 Received: from [IPv6:::1] ([133.2.210.1]:57010) by itmail.it.aoyama.ac.jp with [XMail 1.22 ESMTP Server] id for from ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:44:31 +0900 Message-ID: <4A441A59.8060903@it.aoyama.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:46:17 +0900 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22Martin_J=2E_D=FCrst=22?= Organization: Aoyama Gakuin University User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9.1b3pre) Gecko/20090108 Eudora/3.0b1pre MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Randy Presuhn References: <20090625141637.5FB4828C13A@core3.amsl.com> <001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:46:42 -0000 On 2009/06/26 2:28, Randy Presuhn wrote: >> The IESG has approved the following document: >> >> - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' >> as a BCP > ... > > Congratulations, all! I'd like to thank document shepherd and > co-chair Martin Duerst, our AD Alexy Melnikov, and our Apps > Area reviewer for their patience during these last few weeks. I'd also like to thank everybody involved (including Doug for 4645bis), and especially co-chair Randy Presuhn for his tireless work during the last few years! Regards, Martin. > I'd like to thank the entire working group for all the time and > energy invested in this effort. But most of all, I'd like to thank > editors Addison Phillips and Mark Davis for patiently wielding > the pen. > > There's still a little more to go - the infamous "AUTH48" has > yet to happen, but we're getting really really close to done! > > Randy -- #-# Martin J. Dürst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp From petercon@microsoft.com Thu Jun 25 22:51:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FDC3A68C1 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.519 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.519 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.080, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id stPoaiOgURDx for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.microsoft.com (smtp.microsoft.com [131.107.115.214]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7027F3A67DF for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.88.62) by TK5-EXGWY-E803.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.169) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.2.99.4; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:02 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-C117.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.62.44]) by tk5-expfs-c104.redmond.corp.microsoft.com ([157.54.88.62]) with mapi; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:02 -0700 From: Peter Constable To: Randy Presuhn , LTRU Working Group Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 22:51:01 -0700 Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP Thread-Index: Acn14EUlBUuJSV3dREes+/KIT1XUTwAQbKHw Message-ID: References: <20090625141637.5FB4828C13A@core3.amsl.com> <001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> In-Reply-To: <001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 05:51:20 -0000 Many thanks to you, Randy, and to Martin, for persevering through this long= process as co-chairs. Peter -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ran= dy Presuhn Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:28 AM To: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BC= P Hi - > From: "The IESG" > To: "IETF-Announce" > Cc: "Internet Architecture Board" ; "ltru mailing list" ; "ltru chair" ; "RFC Editor" > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:16 AM > Subject: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP > > The IESG has approved the following document: > > - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' > as a BCP ... Congratulations, all! I'd like to thank document shepherd and co-chair Martin Duerst, our AD Alexy Melnikov, and our Apps Area reviewer for their patience during these last few weeks. I'd like to thank the entire working group for all the time and energy invested in this effort. But most of all, I'd like to thank editors Addison Phillips and Mark Davis for patiently wielding the pen. There's still a little more to go - the infamous "AUTH48" has yet to happen, but we're getting really really close to done! Randy _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From gerard.lang@insee.fr Thu Jun 25 23:00:52 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3C93A6890 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:00:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.799 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.799 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8hswaYJrWmKe for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercure.insee.fr (mercure.insee.fr [81.255.68.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4366D3A67E5 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from evariste.insee.fr (unknown [194.254.38.143]) by mercure.insee.fr (Insee Mail Server) with ESMTP id B7097421EA; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:00:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85751794035; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:00:39 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at insee.fr Received: from evariste.insee.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (evariste.insee.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PojbhplQfREY; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:00:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra (unknown [194.254.38.144]) by evariste.insee.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 554E4794020; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:00:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra ([10.90.200.52]) by s90x2smtp.ad.insee.intra with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:00:39 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 08:00:39 +0200 Message-ID: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE5@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 Thread-Index: Acn1rN6lU1Ft6KsAQJSf+Mi6wfzuiAAdhvMg References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= To: "Marion Gunn" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jun 2009 06:00:39.0504 (UTC) FILETIME=[6E818500:01C9F623] Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Lang_G=E9rard?= Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:00:52 -0000 Dear Marion, Sure, I would be interessed to know if the President of the Breton = Branch of the International Celtic Congress has an opinion (or an = official position) on this question ! Bien cordialement. G=E9rard LANG=20 -----Message d'origine----- De : Marion Gunn [mailto:mgunn@ucd.ie]=20 Envoy=E9 : jeudi 25 juin 2009 17:40 =C0 : Lang G=E9rard; ltru@ietf.org Objet : Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and = geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 Se zo reizh, G=E9rard. Thank you for your long, authoritative statement, which underlines the = importance, as well as the courtesy of revealing where one comes from = when speaking out to sway LTRU decisions. As Vice-President of the Irish Branch of the International Celtic = Congress, I offer to refer this question to the President of the Breton = Branch for their official position, unless you consider this matter now = settled without need to do that? Ken a vo gwelet, mg Scr=EDobh Lang G=E9rard: > Dear All, > > 1-I personally have no marked preference between North-West (or = another equivalent way to write the same) or West. > But, in my quality of statistician (and of member of the french = national geographical information council [CNIG]) I am indebted to write = that West is a better choice, because inside the official NUTS = (Nomenclature des Unit=E9s Territoriales pour la Statistique/ = Classification of territorial units for statistical use) that is defined = and used by the European Union and by the french national statistical = institute (INSEE)... From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Thu Jun 25 23:14:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D7B3A699F for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:14:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.809 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.809 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.133, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f7A2pQiVxQ60 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.248]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054063A697E for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c37so674195anc.4 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:14:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=ZV9NVossuJ0KyTJXcD5I6Ly2IMU7EPr9SC7qXcVcNXc=; b=nxOQwOcyV3MzgcLMKsBCJQANkkAc7+n3apBpk+GZr9gbUibKrNpLt5lTft0HaOrcZr 9R+skNjGoqbfQbB+l8KEFrvNMSl/JmqqBPHGupP7MZ4moTHPwBCa6RWqBZ/MBU0vOFzC 34iXcIXr/sKwJwVJPN225ERCjZEHLuAoM43ds= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=qrfavtk+lKxFKhdtQsiVWxWC6ZWhsLQTIvsbqJiVoQtWjLdB1OwSprODnemLCSvey8 44EBiWXdjQHuA65z2uamo4DATFhEPy6ANhTV8ObmMfBC0wkpwZb6tYqIZ0fmHU/XxOA6 8hQ81e7n5sQuha8UNGjjKazEnbD1mWpG2QLSI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.197.2 with SMTP id u2mr4437883anf.138.1245996864307; Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:14:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20090625141637.5FB4828C13A@core3.amsl.com> <001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 23:14:24 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 30299de00c4041cf Message-ID: <30b660a20906252314y95a95e8x61f38a266df8ab8f@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Peter Constable Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64135ea7d0644046d3a4097 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:14:20 -0000 --0016e64135ea7d0644046d3a4097 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Absolutely! Mark On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 22:51, Peter Constable wrote: > Many thanks to you, Randy, and to Martin, for persevering through this long > process as co-chairs. > > > Peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Randy Presuhn > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:28 AM > To: LTRU Working Group > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to > BCP > > Hi - > > > From: "The IESG" > > To: "IETF-Announce" > > Cc: "Internet Architecture Board" ; "ltru mailing list" < > ltru@ietf.org>; "ltru chair" ; > "RFC Editor" > > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:16 AM > > Subject: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP > > > > The IESG has approved the following document: > > > > - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' > > as a BCP > ... > > Congratulations, all! I'd like to thank document shepherd and > co-chair Martin Duerst, our AD Alexy Melnikov, and our Apps > Area reviewer for their patience during these last few weeks. > I'd like to thank the entire working group for all the time and > energy invested in this effort. But most of all, I'd like to thank > editors Addison Phillips and Mark Davis for patiently wielding > the pen. > > There's still a little more to go - the infamous "AUTH48" has > yet to happen, but we're getting really really close to done! > > Randy > > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > --0016e64135ea7d0644046d3a4097 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Absolutely!

Mark


On Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 22:51, Peter Con= stable <pete= rcon@microsoft.com> wrote:
Many thanks to you, Randy, and to Martin, for persevering through this long= process as co-chairs.


Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [m= ailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] O= n Behalf Of Randy Presuhn
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 10:28 AM
To: LTRU Working Group
Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages= 9; to BCP

Hi -

> From: "The IESG" <iesg-secretary@ietf.org>
> To: "IETF-Announce" <ietf-announce@ietf.org>
> Cc: "Internet Architecture Board" <iab@iab.org>; "ltru mailing list" <ltru@ietf.org>; "ltru chair" <ltru-chairs@tools.ietf.org&g= t;;
"RFC Editor" <rfc= -editor@rfc-editor.org>
> Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 7:16 AM
> Subject: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages&#= 39; to BCP
>
> The IESG has approved the following document:
>
> - 'Tags for Identifying Languages '
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0<draft-ietf-ltru-4646bis-23.txt> as a BCP
...

Congratulations, all! =C2=A0I'd like to thank document shepherd and
co-chair Martin Duerst, our AD Alexy Melnikov, and our Apps
Area reviewer for their patience during these last few weeks.
I'd like to thank the entire working group for all the time and
energy invested in this effort. =C2=A0But most of all, I'd like to than= k
editors Addison Phillips and Mark Davis for patiently wielding
the pen.

There's still a little more to go - the infamous "AUTH48" has=
yet to happen, but we're getting really really close to done!

Randy


_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

_______________________________________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru

--0016e64135ea7d0644046d3a4097-- From mgunn@egt.ie Fri Jun 26 03:58:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E6F3A6A90 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:58:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.441, BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MISSING_HEADERS=1.292] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyymoJaw5bx0 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.17]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B25BC3A6855 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 03:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 96301 messnum 5487565 invoked from network[86.42.162.191/86-42-162-191-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net]); 26 Jun 2009 10:57:36 -0000 Received: from 86-42-162-191-dynamic.b-ras1.bbh.dublin.eircom.net (HELO Marion-Gunns-Computer.local) (86.42.162.191) by mail01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 96301) with SMTP; 26 Jun 2009 10:57:36 -0000 Message-ID: <4A44A864.6010507@egt.ie> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:52:20 +0100 From: Marion Gunn User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: ltru@ietf.org References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> <4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE5@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> In-Reply-To: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE5@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040006000109090703030203" Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:58:32 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040006000109090703030203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have just sent you the contact details of President of the Breton Branchprivately, Gérard, together with a note of introduction. Bien c. mg Scríobh Lang Gérard: > Dear Marion, > > Sure, I would be interessed to know if the President of the Breton Branch of the International Celtic Congress has an opinion (or an official position) on this question ! > Bien cordialement. > Gérard LANG > > -- Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991) 27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh, Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland * mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie * --------------040006000109090703030203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just sent you the contact details of President of the Breton Branchprivately, Gérard, together with a note of introduction.

Bien c.
mg


Scríobh Lang Gérard: 
Dear Marion,

Sure, I would be interessed to know if the President of the Breton Branch of the International Celtic Congress has an opinion (or an official position) on this question !
Bien cordialement.
Gérard LANG


--
Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab

Marion Gunn * eGteo (Estab.1991)

27 Páirc an Fhéithlinn, Baile an

Bhóthair, An Charraig Dhubh,

Co. Átha Cliath, Éire/Ireland

* mgunn@egt.ie * eamonn@egt.ie *

--------------040006000109090703030203-- From doug@ewellic.org Fri Jun 26 06:07:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B4EC3A6ADF for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.054 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.054 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.882, BAYES_40=-0.185, FAKE_REPLY_C=2.012, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZB7H3Rv6uCKe for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (smtpout05-01.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net [64.202.165.218]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 278AD3A6AD8 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 12434 invoked from network); 26 Jun 2009 13:05:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (67.166.27.148) by smtpout05.prod.mesa1.secureserver.net (64.202.165.218) with ESMTP; 26 Jun 2009 13:05:12 -0000 Message-ID: From: "Doug Ewell" To: "LTRU Working Group" Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:05:09 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" and geography X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:07:25 -0000 Lang Gérard wrote: > Sure, I would be interessed to know if the President of the Breton > Branch of the International Celtic Congress has an opinion (or an > official position) on this question ! It's just a comment within an example. As Randy said, it can be fixed in the draft in AUTH48. -- Doug Ewell * Thornton, Colorado, USA * RFC 4645 * UTN #14 http://www.ewellic.org http://www1.ietf.org/html.charters/ltru-charter.html http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages ˆ From Karen.Broome@am.sony.com Fri Jun 26 06:44:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA963A6B11 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:44:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OdHlBa1ziQAb for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from TX2EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (tx2ehsobe002.messaging.microsoft.com [65.55.88.12]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93FCB3A6B7E for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail137-tx2-R.bigfish.com (10.9.14.241) by TX2EHSOBE003.bigfish.com (10.9.40.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.340.0; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:18 +0000 Received: from mail137-tx2 (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail137-tx2-R.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E3A16A81FF for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:18 +0000 (UTC) X-SpamScore: -68 X-BigFish: VPS-68(zz13feK542N1432R98dR936eN1805M9371Pzz1202hzz1033ILz2fh6bh61h) X-Spam-TCS-SCL: 0:0 Received: by mail137-tx2 (MessageSwitch) id 1246023855863077_23344; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:15 +0000 (UCT) Received: from mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (mail8.fw-bc.sony.com [160.33.98.75]) by mail137-tx2.bigfish.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5C713E0056 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail1.bc.in.sel.sony.com (mail1.bc.in.sel.sony.com [43.144.65.111]) by mail8.fw-bc.sony.com (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id n5QDiFEH012841 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:15 GMT Received: from USBMAXIM01.am.sony.com (us-east-xims.am.sony.com [43.145.108.25]) by mail1.bc.in.sel.sony.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n5QDiEX3000223 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:15 GMT Received: from USBMAXRG02.am.sony.com ([43.145.108.24]) by USBMAXIM01.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:44:14 -0400 Received: from USSDIXRG02.am.sony.com ([43.130.140.32]) by USBMAXRG02.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 26 Jun 2009 09:44:14 -0400 Received: from USSDIXRG01.am.sony.com ([43.130.140.31]) by USSDIXRG02.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:44:02 -0700 Received: from USSDIXMS01.am.sony.com ([43.130.140.21]) by USSDIXRG01.am.sony.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:44:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 06:43:49 -0700 Message-ID: <8D97027965E89F488BC87B919382D9FD0505DCE2@ussdixms01.am.sony.com> In-Reply-To: <4A441A59.8060903@it.aoyama.ac.jp> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP Thread-Index: Acn197CWxJ0Zi1CVRD+/YwTH895l1wAbAe2w References: <20090625141637.5FB4828C13A@core3.amsl.com><001101c9f5ba$4d642260$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> <4A441A59.8060903@it.aoyama.ac.jp> From: "Broome, Karen" To: "LTRU Working Group" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jun 2009 13:44:02.0016 (UTC) FILETIME=[2A182E00:01C9F664] X-SEL-encryption-scan: scanned Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to BCP X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:44:17 -0000 I guess I've rejoined the discussion just in time to thank you all for = teaching me so much over the last few years. Congratulations, everyone! Best regards, Karen Broome Sony Electronics -----Original Message----- From: ltru-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:ltru-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of = "Martin J. D=FCrst" Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 8:46 PM To: Randy Presuhn Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] Protocol Action: 'Tags for Identifying Languages' to = BCP On 2009/06/26 2:28, Randy Presuhn wrote: >> The IESG has approved the following document: >> >> - 'Tags for Identifying Languages ' >> as a BCP > ... > > Congratulations, all! I'd like to thank document shepherd and > co-chair Martin Duerst, our AD Alexy Melnikov, and our Apps > Area reviewer for their patience during these last few weeks. I'd also like to thank everybody involved (including Doug for 4645bis),=20 and especially co-chair Randy Presuhn for his tireless work during the=20 last few years! Regards, Martin. > I'd like to thank the entire working group for all the time and > energy invested in this effort. But most of all, I'd like to thank > editors Addison Phillips and Mark Davis for patiently wielding > the pen. > > There's still a little more to go - the infamous "AUTH48" has > yet to happen, but we're getting really really close to done! > > Randy --=20 #-# Martin J. D=FCrst, Professor, Aoyama Gakuin University #-# http://www.sw.it.aoyama.ac.jp mailto:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp _______________________________________________ Ltru mailing list Ltru@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru From cewcathar@hotmail.com Fri Jun 26 07:03:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EC4E3A6B56 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.824, BAYES_05=-1.11, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QwtQ-GG6INox for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blu0-omc3-s36.blu0.hotmail.com (blu0-omc3-s36.blu0.hotmail.com [65.55.116.111]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 373FE3A6B11 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from BLU109-W19 ([65.55.116.72]) by blu0-omc3-s36.blu0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:03:10 -0700 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_680f2fdf-6975-42c7-b608-869453dbcaf6_" X-Originating-IP: [168.13.191.67] From: CE Whitehead To: Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:03:09 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Jun 2009 14:03:10.0188 (UTC) FILETIME=[D67552C0:01C9F666] Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry established by 4646 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 14:03:05 -0000 --_680f2fdf-6975-42c7-b608-869453dbcaf6_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy thanks for all your information! =20 Best=2C =20 C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com From: "Randy Presuhn" =20 Date: Thu=2C 25 Jun 2009 15:53:31 -0700=20 =20 > Hi - >> From: "CE Whitehead" > To: > Sent: Thursday=2C June 25=2C 2009 3:37 PM=20 >> Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA registry establ= ished by 4646 ... --_680f2fdf-6975-42c7-b608-869453dbcaf6_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Randy thanks for all your information!
 =3B
Best=2C
 =3B
C. E. Whitehead
cewcathar@hotmail.com

<= BR> From: "Randy Presuhn" <=3B= randy_presuhn at mindspring.com>=3B
Date: Thu=2C 25 Jun 2009 15:53:31 -0700
 =3B
>=3B Hi -
>=3B>=3B From: "CE Whitehead" <=3Bcewcathar at hotmail.com
>=3B>=3B To: <=3Bltru at ietf.org>=3B >=3B Sent: Thursday=2C June= 25=2C 2009 3:37 PM
>=3B>=3B Subject: Re: [Ltru] Applicability Statement for the IANA regis= try established by 4646 ...

= --_680f2fdf-6975-42c7-b608-869453dbcaf6_-- From randy_presuhn@mindspring.com Fri Jun 26 11:54:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0A7C28C125 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:54:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.382 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.382 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.217, BAYES_00=-2.599] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UdD1dUVs8FYh for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net (elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net [209.86.89.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18BD228C0EB for ; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 11:54:53 -0700 (PDT) DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=dk20050327; d=mindspring.com; b=OF9o2D+GwD7zVnMkOFHfOH8tkZwjE1xdRVIERNPMkuwpYxs1GZOou7h1gRxKgzz1; h=Received:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE:X-ELNK-Trace:X-Originating-IP; Received: from [99.41.53.76] (helo=oemcomputer) by elasmtp-masked.atl.sa.earthlink.net with esmtpa (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1MKFdl-0000u6-1w for ltru@ietf.org; Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:55:09 -0400 Message-ID: <000a01c9f687$5b924420$6801a8c0@oemcomputer> From: "Randy Presuhn" To: References: <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE4@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra><4A439A4F.1080101@ucd.ie> <68723E6B2E0EDC4999504D17DDE8F94906E35DE5@S90X2HUB1.ad.insee.intra> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 10:55:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-ELNK-Trace: 4488c18417c9426da92b9037bc8bcf44d4c20f6b8d69d88884f945684cbf696863b509ce5f92628af1c2f85b1707ce05350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c X-Originating-IP: 99.41.53.76 Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:54:54 -0000 Hi - > From: "Lang Gérard" > To: "Marion Gunn" ; > Cc: "Lang Gérard" > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 11:00 PM > Subject: Re: [Ltru] Discussion about the language name "Breton" andgeography: Ltru Digest, Vol 52, Issue 63 > > Dear Marion, > > Sure, I would be interessed to know if the President of the Breton Branch of the > International Celtic Congress has an opinion (or an official position) on this question ! ... As co-chair: Since there is no liaison relationship between the IETF and either of those organizations, this tactic is quite inappropriate. Comments from knowledgeable contributors are welcome, but wave your hats somewhere else. If you want to set up a liaison relationship, please go to the IAB. It is in charge of liaison relationships. We can't help you here. Randy From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Sat Jun 27 11:37:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAF83A6B5E for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:37:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.262 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.262 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.669, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D2DfqY4EtEdg for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.247]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B46DC3A6B3F for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id c37so1105097anc.4 for ; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:38:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=k0srQkPGBactaUqkhwYj38Cw3zW45hJ/qLHRmAs2K+Y=; b=ljVUhjTNb7v/XIjaGut9b3TASVbbKZif70N8N9+VzYuprCmSlx/FEDVozndRgTqc02 Xxbnmo9EkLmS8BOSSudyAIbTorfpV0HbF2EHTuUKm2PN+Kk2CInkTHp+IaXMpiDLLOyT Co2Fs+qUFFr2tRDFVJ+RI7Jq6XVpAB8ZtdWe8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; b=E/pbs0Bnix3Sc6EHUeeW1EtiXRDy4rDsS+b8LcDGaXmtCMRpL+MZc2ZDhQ+TDsYjxs 7gBElCssFDiTG48IOnDCtT+HiMsQ6sIAyw0NmUUp8ZKUmZ8aXIgpwWUYoKXVAIyzmyy9 5iJD957u1lsh531R444DqWbet/DQSxpiRt5PQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.231.8 with SMTP id d8mr6456628anh.196.1246127887676; Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 11:38:07 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: b075f77250d5cea2 Message-ID: <30b660a20906271138o186f82a5xd2531f70806ab3be@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: LTRU Working Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016368e207d16f559046d58c23a Subject: [Ltru] updated demo X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:37:51 -0000 --0016368e207d16f559046d58c23a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I updated the demo at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp to parse extlangs. The samples include official languages and the scripts they use (based on CLDR data), and the names have localizations where available. Comments welcome. Mark --0016368e207d16f559046d58c23a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I updated the demo at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp to parse extlangs.= The samples include official languages and the scripts they use (based on = CLDR data), and the names have localizations where available.

Comments welcome.

Mark
--0016368e207d16f559046d58c23a-- From felix.sasaki@googlemail.com Sun Jun 28 05:11:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2CA73A6867 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 05:11:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.742 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.742 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.151, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nBFXZP0zeIrv for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 05:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f213.google.com (mail-bw0-f213.google.com [209.85.218.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7963A677C for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 05:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz9 with SMTP id 9so2778282bwz.37 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 05:10:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=Bs41Sry5Bv+qQggssksn9fWfrTuwwn2/QHHgI8XnTq8=; b=slBI3q8nY7J6U2RdBBHNHfoZLQMr/vKkEh/nnovB+gH5Z0XAGADkqDRzsg8jSRQEt5 JGZxYYrWQTC7mMZw7IIFD1NPgtrXIvbuJIB7syO8xsLn84hcc+ttEIrwsibn4ROQaGR3 2fyHXsqhpjpesISgikLwf3UF1/HDYrCNFx4BU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=i3ZEDIjaxP/fykr0MKItL0szZT2Qu4MGu+L3IABWe6LwD0JNarYKXLnO0/IxyBXiCv eYCbgxNDpuqEA4q7ti+mIre7XJhuWJJgevaFtCHAnkpJRHNYvNKQsHJhWwcbYosyuch7 75vU4Yub33J2Mg5l9h21PDGbovs0GVJ/Mj8/c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: felix.sasaki@googlemail.com Received: by 10.223.123.210 with SMTP id q18mr3859681far.60.1246191011849; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 05:10:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <30b660a20906271138o186f82a5xd2531f70806ab3be@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:10:11 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: f5d7e1233d9a7dc0 Message-ID: From: Felix Sasaki To: LTRU Working Group Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636988a0b956eb0046d6774e4 Subject: Re: [Ltru] updated demo X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 12:11:20 -0000 --001636988a0b956eb0046d6774e4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent, now this should reach the list. Hello Mark, this looks similar to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/ my language tag parser currently based on draft 21 of rfc4646bis. lta also contains some error checking mechanisms, see examples like http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-x http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dxa http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Den-latn http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dja-1901 http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dfr-cmn http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-cmn http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-a-bbb-a-ccc http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901 Output is available in HTML with German UI and English, and in an XML format, see e.g. http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901&outpu= t=3Dxml My comment on your tool is that to co-ordinate such efforts it would be great to have a common machine-readable output format for language tag parsing, also e.g. to deal with error descriptions like 1901 Traditional German orthography de de Variant repetition 1901 Felix 2009/6/27 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B I updated the demo at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp to parse extlangs. The samples include official languages and the scripts they use (based on CLDR data), and the names have localizations where available. Comments welcome. Mark ______________________________ > > _________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru --001636988a0b956eb0046d6774e4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Resent, now this should reach the list.

Hello Mark,

this look= s similar to
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/
my language tag parser currently based on draft 21 of rfc4646bis. lta also contains some error checking mechanisms, see examples like

http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-= x
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3D= xa
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Den-l= atn
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q= ?input=3Dja-1901
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dfr-cm= n
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?= input=3Dzh-cmn-cmn
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?i= nput=3Dzh-cmn-a-bbb-a-ccc
http://www.w3.org= /2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901

Output is available in HTML with German UI and English, and in an XML f= ormat, see e.g.
http://www.w3.= org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901&output=3Dxml

My comment on your tool is that to co-ordinate such efforts it would be great to have a common machine-readable output format for language tag parsing, also e.g. to deal with error descriptions like
<lta:variant>
<lta:subtag>= ;1901</lta:subtag>
<lta:registryInfo>

<lta:var ty=3D"variant= " su=3D"1901" ad=3D"2005-10-16">

<l= ta:ds>Traditional German orthography
</lta:ds>
            <lta:pref>de</lta:pref>

         </lta:va=
r>
      </lta:registryInfo>
      <<=
span>lta:matchedPrefix>de</lta:matchedPrefix><=
br>

      <lta:error type=3D"e007&q=
uot;>
         <lta:errorText>Variant repet=
ition</lta:errorText>

         <lta:erro=
rAddInfo>


            <lta:subtag>1901</lta:su=
btag>
         </lta:errorAddInfo>

 =
     </lta:error>
   </lta:variant>=
;

Felix

2009/6/27 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B <= ;mark@macchiato.com= >
I updated the demo at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/l= anguageid.jsp to parse extlangs. The samples include official languages and the scripts they use (based on CLDR data), and the names have localizations where available.

Comments welcome.

Mark

______________________________
_________________
Ltru mailing list
Ltru@ietf.org
ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
--001636988a0b956eb0046d6774e4-- From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Sun Jun 28 13:07:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35FD3A6BB0 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:07:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.235 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.235 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.358, BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c4TOALkNbgRx for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f182.google.com (mail-yx0-f182.google.com [209.85.210.182]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6BA63A6AD6 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by yxe12 with SMTP id 12so345205yxe.29 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:07:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=sI6gPJkHP29GtRDW+/F3aMoY80xJJkTYOTJ2BXt2tX4=; b=LSwRgU0Ovus/q/Q16yp32ANlKL9EXRlOCJXd2sbJSku0T3KGTDlNfvJDN7qskNysFf NEV4zimWhrNGM/k4eLVFERY04qWhGbvNNbIh7ZUnRuNrgjdBN3i9WDZSH1mL76B/lvM3 uQnvmsfgNI2kWETF+ZvJvNrqn0rGoSN+oOdYo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=fwYkl1DPrC4TlMUWYXW+OuHIjo6V5mWJ5PrhnKtDkuAheBfWSFQJpfifk5kwI1x+y8 /vxl8H1Tpk8gRJd7Gza7+K9PdTtHPwaUQH3B/dMLoHX8CeWPEGZBqJdTZUG2/Yr+5P8x onpSENGbHZjgVHHzZLw2ow2SIn2IfuIhjKjTw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: mark.edward.davis@gmail.com Received: by 10.100.251.8 with SMTP id y8mr8078737anh.74.1246219644796; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:07:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <30b660a20906271138o186f82a5xd2531f70806ab3be@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 13:07:24 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 836c5d1af1739f85 Message-ID: <30b660a20906281307p7324a2a4uf1a29a41d6271378@mail.gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= To: Felix Sasaki Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636af03423d8126046d6e1f6b Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] updated demo X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:07:08 -0000 --001636af03423d8126046d6e1f6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It does look similar. After looking them over, I think sometimes one is better and sometimes the other is. The differences I can see (other than UI= ) are: *Feedback on ill-formed, invalid, or non-preferred values.* de-x - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Dde-x shows the tag where the problem lies, but not potential fixes. (I use a regex based on= the ABNF for well-formedness, and if it fails I just show the tag where the problem is.) - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-x shows what = the potential subtags at that point might be. iw-su - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Diw-su&l=3Den shows = the replacement values for iw and su. - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Diw-su&output=3Dhtm= l&hl=3Denjust says they are valid. It does show all the registry information, like when the code was added. eng-840 - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Deng-840&l=3Den show= s the replacements for the wrong choice of source code (3 letter language when= 2 letter exists (common in the field), 3 digit region when 2 letter exists= ) - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Deng-840&output=3Dh= tml&hl=3Denjust says they are invalid. *Localization:* sl-Cyrl-YU - Arabic, German - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Dsl-Cyrl-YU&l=3Dar a= nd http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Dsl-Cyrl-YU&l=3Dde sho= w localized subtag names. - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dsl-Cyrl-YU&output= =3Dhtml&hl=3Daromits text; http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dsl-Cyrl-YU&output= =3Dhtml&hl=3Ddehas a localized UI, but not localized subtag names. *Prefix Warnings* en-cmn-rozaj - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Den-cmn&l=3Dar doesn= 't give a warning (it just applies strict validity). - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Den-cmn-rozaj&outpu= t=3Dhtml&hl=3Dendoes supply warnings for missing variant prefixes. *Canonical Form* sl-cyrl-Yu-rozaj-Solba-1994-b-1234-a-Foobar-x-b-1234-a-Foobar - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Dsl-cyrl-Yu-rozaj-Solb= a-1994-b-1234-a-Foobar-x-b-1234-a-Foobar&l=3Denputs the results in canonical casing and order (and shows canonical replacements). It does not validate extensions, like "b-1234". (It follo= ws LDML canonical order for variants - alphabetical.) - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dsl-Cyrl-YU-rozaj-s= olba-1994-b-1234-a-Foobar-x-b-1234-a-Foobar&output=3Dhtml&hl=3Dendoesn't. It also gives a validation error on extensions. Validating extensions is debatable - the validity of these is established outside of the spec and iana subtag registry. Probably best would be neithe= r of the above: a warning, not an error. Note that http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jspsays "suggested canonical form", since in the case of multiple replacements it doesn't try to pick the best one. Eg the best guess for ru-SU is ru-RU, but the best guess for az-SU would be az-AZ. It also doesn't try to find missing prefix values for variants; that's probably of such low frequency that it doesn't pay. *Completeness* - http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp?a=3Di-default&l=3Den do= esn't allow grandfathered codes. (Following LDML.) - http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Di-default does. FYI, the regex it uses is: (?: ( [a-z A-Z]{2,8} | [a-z A-Z]{2,3} [-_] [a-z A-Z]{3} ) (?: [-_] ( [a-z A-Z]{4} ) )? (?: [-_] ( [a-z A-Z]{2} | [0-9]{3} ) )? (?: [-_] ( (?: [0-9 a-z A-Z]{5,8} | [0-9] [0-9 a-z A-Z]{3} ) (?: [-_] (?: [0-9 a-z A-Z]{5,8} | [0-9] [0-9 a-z A-Z]{3} ) )* ) )? (?: [-_] ( [a-w y-z A-W Y-Z] (?: [-_] [0-9 a-z A-Z]{2,8} )+ (?: [-_] [a-w y-z A-W Y-Z] (?: [-_] [0-9 a-z A-Z]{2,8} )+ )* ) )? (?: [-_] ( [xX] (?: [-_] [0-9 a-z A-Z]{1,8} )+ ) )? ) | ( [xX] (?: [-_] [0-9 a-z A-Z]{1,8} )+ ) Mark On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 02:07, Felix Sasaki wro= te: > Hello Mark, > > this looks similar to > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/ > my language tag parser currently based on draft 21 of rfc4646bis. lta als= o > contains some error checking mechanisms, see examples like > > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-x > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dxa > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Den-latn > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dja-1901 > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dfr-cmn > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-cmn > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-a-bbb-a-ccc > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901 > > Output is available in HTML with German UI and English, and in an XML > format, see e.g. > > http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901&out= put=3Dxml > > My comment on your tool is that to co-ordinate such efforts it would be > great to have a common machine-readable output format for language tag > parsing, also e.g. to deal with error descriptions like > > > > 1901 > > > > > Traditional German orthography > > > de > > > > de > > > Variant repetition > > > > 1901 > > > > > > > Felix > > 2009/6/27 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B > >> I updated the demo at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp to >> parse extlangs. The samples include official languages and the scripts t= hey >> use (based on CLDR data), and the names have localizations where availab= le. >> >> Comments welcome. >> >> Mark >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ltru mailing list >> Ltru@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru >> >> > --001636af03423d8126046d6e1f6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It does look similar. After looking them over, I think sometimes one is bet= ter and sometimes the other is. The differences I can see (other than UI) a= re:

Feedback on ill-formed, invalid, or non-preferred values.=

de-x

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--0016368e2bc9f5f207046d6ead34-- From felix.sasaki@googlemail.com Sun Jun 28 02:07:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ltru@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0233A69B7 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.593 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.593 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0yfWA7nYZZyy for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f213.google.com (mail-bw0-f213.google.com [209.85.218.213]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1C1B3A6359 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:07:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by bwz9 with SMTP id 9so2733486bwz.37 for ; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:07:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=TxxXgxzde4kK1JSdcofkiqMLgS+BcBy5tlJssgDuhGA=; b=u54sCqgYCcX8QX1c4RvEzo1Jql0FKkbdjkY2laaOhfjT/Dd/nC3zhyfG34T9KM9b8n YGrwEkm+EK8tvLQ8O6c8Bw58miqC5eatTthA/HG/zyxDnzY1u/J3EdcCxiIDjGsiYcCn NiR9JV/Km56pVlBzactHvOrRbYGK0BChzARuE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlemail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; b=X7TjtlG1e2tC+3+OVaFbt/27HikHGfzh10b7x252icVg66qigbRd4dqs8P7HOQKBCW iFbHS5e6Nit6VjCKc0GJYUAkA4cSJ5M8LB1yi2yW8EOqoo7GJfipmvbXU4kbu0q0k+1j aOEAY0m8w8IrxB2x2SsHeHdrIb4tcFYDXvUuE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: felix.sasaki@googlemail.com Received: by 10.223.122.15 with SMTP id j15mr3836772far.74.1246180060665; Sun, 28 Jun 2009 02:07:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <30b660a20906271138o186f82a5xd2531f70806ab3be@mail.gmail.com> References: <30b660a20906271138o186f82a5xd2531f70806ab3be@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:07:40 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9747c18c55bdc723 Message-ID: From: Felix Sasaki To: =?UTF-8?B?TWFyayBEYXZpcyDijJs=?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5a723d798a7046d64e75f X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 14:33:20 -0700 Cc: LTRU Working Group Subject: Re: [Ltru] updated demo X-BeenThere: ltru@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: Language Tag Registry Update working group discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 09:09:45 -0000 --001636c5a723d798a7046d64e75f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mark, this looks similar to http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/ my language tag parser currently based on draft 21 of rfc4646bis. lta also contains some error checking mechanisms, see examples like http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-x http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dxa http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Den-latn http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dja-1901 http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dfr-cmn http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-cmn http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-a-bbb-a-ccc http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901 Output is available in HTML with German UI and English, and in an XML format, see e.g. http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901&outpu= t=3Dxml My comment on your tool is that to co-ordinate such efforts it would be great to have a common machine-readable output format for language tag parsing, also e.g. to deal with error descriptions like 1901 Traditional German orthography de de Variant repetition 1901 Felix 2009/6/27 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B > I updated the demo at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp to > parse extlangs. The samples include official languages and the scripts th= ey > use (based on CLDR data), and the names have localizations where availabl= e. > > Comments welcome. > > Mark > > _______________________________________________ > Ltru mailing list > Ltru@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru > > --001636c5a723d798a7046d64e75f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Mark,

this looks similar to
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/
my lan= guage tag parser currently based on draft 21 of rfc4646bis. lta also contai= ns some error checking mechanisms, see examples like

= http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dde-x
http://www.w3= .org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dxa
h= ttp://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Den-latn
http://w= ww.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dja-1901
ht= tp://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dfr-cmn
http:= //www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-cmn
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input=3Dzh-cmn-a-bb= b-a-ccc
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/language-tags/q?input= =3Dde-de-1901-1901

Output is available in HTML with German UI and English, and in an XML f= ormat, see e.g.
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/lta/la= nguage-tags/q?input=3Dde-de-1901-1901&output=3Dxml

My comment on your tool is that to co-ordinate such efforts it would be= great to have a common machine-readable output format for language tag par= sing, also e.g. to deal with error descriptions like
 <lta:variant>
      <lta:subtag>1901</lta=
:subtag>
      <lta:registryInfo<=
/span>>

         <lta:var ty=3D"variant" <=
/span>su=3D"1901" ad=3D"2005-10-16">

            <lta:ds>Traditional Germ=
an orthography
</lta=
:ds>
            <lta:pref=
>de</lta:pref>

         </lta:var>
      </lta:registryInfo>
      <lta:matchedPrefix>de</lta:=
matchedPrefix>

      <lta:error type=3D"e007">
         <lta:errorText>V=
ariant repetition</lta:errorText>

         <lta:errorAddInfo>
            <lta:subtag>1901</lta:subtag>
         =
</lta:errorAddInfo>

      </lta:error>
   </lta:variant>

Felix

2009/6/27 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B <mark@macchiato.com&g=
t;



I updated the dem=
o at http://unicode.org/cldr/utility/languageid.jsp to parse extlangs=
. The samples include official languages and the scripts they use (based on=
 CLDR data), and the names have localizations where available. 




Comments welcome.

Mark


_______________________________________________

Ltru mailing list

Ltru@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru





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From mark.edward.davis@gmail.com  Sun Jun 28 14:51:16 2009
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To: Felix Sasaki 
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Some comments on one point you raise:

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 13:47, Felix Sasaki wro=
te:
...

>
> Yes. I guess you are using CLDR data for the localized subtag names? For
> including such data easily, a common result format for language tag analy=
sis
> would be good.
>

For localization, CLDR uses the structure as you see in
http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/de.xml

Language subtags illustrate this:


	
		
			Afar
...


However, the data can also be used to translate compounds, such as

			=C3=96sterreichisches Deutsch
			Schweizer Hochdeutsch

That means that when getting the localized name for a tag, you have to firs=
t
try with lang+script+region, then lang+script, then lang+region to see if
there are any matches, then remove the fields you got in order to look up
the rest.

Scripts are similar, but don't have the compounds:

		
			
...

Regions use the name 'territory', having predated BCP 47:

		
			Welt

Variants are simple.

		
...
			Standardisierte Resianische Rechtschreibung
...

Ideally, however, they should allow for compounds, since for goofy compound
variant tags like sl-SI-rozaj-njiva-1994, you don't want a term like:

Slovenian (Slovenia, standardized resian orthography, resian, gniva/njiva
dialect)

but rather something a bit more readable and less repetitious like:

Slovenian (Slovenia, gniva/njiva dialect with standardized resian
orthography)

And we don't have support for extensions yet.

To put components together, there are localizable patterns:

		
			{0} ({1})
			, 

While it might be more natural to have structure for something like the
following, that is a real challenge for generative localization of language
tags, because of grammatical changes required by composition in more comple=
x
languages.

Chinese written in traditional script as used in Hong Kong

There is, however, the ability to have abbreviations, like:

			Sonderverwaltungszone Hongkong
			Hongkong

What we don't have yet is the ability to allow different forms of names for
different target environments. In flowing text, you might want to say
"traditional Chinese" for "zh-Hant", but in an alphabetized menu, something
like "Chinese, Traditional". That is, order, casing, and wording might
change between those two environments.

--0016e645b9449cd5f1046d6f936f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some comments on one point you raise:

On =
Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 13:47, Felix Sasaki <felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam.de>=
 wrote:


... 

Yes. I guess you are using CLDR data =
for the localized subtag names? For including such data easily, a common re=
sult format for language tag analysis would be good. 



For localization, CLDR uses the structure as yo=
u see in http:/=
/unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/de.xml

Language subtags illus=
trate this:


<ldml>
	<localeDisplayNames>
		<languages>
			<lan=
guage type=3D"aa">Afar</la=
nguage>

...

However, the data can also be used to translate compounds,=
 such as 
			<language<=
/span> type=3D"de_AT">=C3=96sterreichisches Deutsch</language>

			<language type=3D"de_CH"=
>Schweizer Hochdeutsch</language>That means that when getting the localized name for a tag, you have to =
first try with lang+script+region, then lang+script, then lang+region to se=
e if there are any matches, then remove the fields you got in order to look=
 up the rest.


Scripts are similar, but don't have the compounds:
		<scripts>
			<script type=
=3D"Arab">Arabisch</=
script>

...
Regions use the name 'territory', having predated BCP =
47:
		<territories>
			<territory type=3D"001&quo=
t;>Welt</territory>


Variants are simple.
		<variants>
...
			<vari=
ant type=3D"1994">Standardisierte Resianische Rechtsc=
hreibung</variant>

...
 Ideally, however, they should allow for compounds, since for =
goofy compound variant tags like sl-SI-rozaj-njiva-1994, you don't want=
 a term like:

Slovenian (Slovenia,=
 standardized resian orthography, resian, gniva/njiva dialect)



but rather something a bit more readable and less repetitious lik=
e:

Slovenian (Slovenia, gniva/njiv=
a dialect with standardized resian orthography)

And we don'=
;t have support for extensions yet.


To put components together, there are localizable patterns:
		<localeDisplayPattern>=

			<localePattern>{0} ({1})</=
localePattern>

			<localeSeparator>, </localeSeparator>
While it might be more n=
atural to have structure for something like the following, that is a real c=
hallenge for generative localization of language tags, because of grammatic=
al changes required by composition in more complex languages.


Chinese written in traditional script=
 as used in Hong Kong

There is, however, the ability to have a=
bbreviations, like:
			<territory type=3D"HK">Sonderverwaltungszone Hongkon=
g</territory>

			<territory type=3D"HK" <=
span class=3D"attribute-name">alt=3D=
"short">Hongkong</territory<=
/span>>

What we don't have yet is the ability to allow different forms of names=
 for different target environments. In flowing text, you might want to say =
"traditional Chinese" for "zh-Hant", but in an alphabet=
ized menu, something like "Chinese, Traditional". That is, order,=
 casing, and wording might change between those two environments.





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Hello Mark,
thank you for your helpful explanations. I have used this part of CLDR data
before in a different context (localization of XML schema). My point "For
including such data easily, a common result format for language tag analysi=
s
would be good. " was that I would not need to implement the CLDR analysis
"again" if we would have one result format for language tag analysis - I
would just fetch parts of your results (e.g. the localization bit), and you
might fetch parts of mine (e.g. the subtag proposals).

Felix


2009/6/28 Mark Davis =E2=8C=9B 

> Some comments on one point you raise:
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 13:47, Felix Sasaki w=
rote:
> ...
>
>>
>> Yes. I guess you are using CLDR data for the localized subtag names? For
>> including such data easily, a common result format for language tag anal=
ysis
>> would be good.
>>
>
> For localization, CLDR uses the structure as you see in
> http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/de.xml
>
> Language subtags illustrate this:
>
> 
> 	
> 		
> 			Afar
>
> ...
>
>
> However, the data can also be used to translate compounds, such as
>
> 			=C3=96sterreichisches Deutsch
>
> 			Schweizer Hochdeutsch
>
> That means that when getting the localized name for a tag, you have to
> first try with lang+script+region, then lang+script, then lang+region to =
see
> if there are any matches, then remove the fields you got in order to look=
 up
> the rest.
>
> Scripts are similar, but don't have the compounds:
>
> 		
> 			
>
> ...
>
> Regions use the name 'territory', having predated BCP 47:
>
> 		
> 			Welt
>
> Variants are simple.
>
> 		
> ...
> 			Standardisierte Resianische Rechtschreibung
>
> ...
>
> Ideally, however, they should allow for compounds, since for goofy compou=
nd
> variant tags like sl-SI-rozaj-njiva-1994, you don't want a term like:
>
> Slovenian (Slovenia, standardized resian orthography, resian, gniva/njiva
> dialect)
>
> but rather something a bit more readable and less repetitious like:
>
> Slovenian (Slovenia, gniva/njiva dialect with standardized resian
> orthography)
>
> And we don't have support for extensions yet.
>
> To put components together, there are localizable patterns:
>
> 		
> 			{0} ({1})
>
> 			, 
>
> While it might be more natural to have structure for something like the
> following, that is a real challenge for generative localization of langua=
ge
> tags, because of grammatical changes required by composition in more comp=
lex
> languages.
>
> Chinese written in traditional script as used in Hong Kong
>
> There is, however, the ability to have abbreviations, like:
>
> 			Sonderverwaltungszone Hongkong
>
> 			Hongkong
>
> What we don't have yet is the ability to allow different forms of names f=
or
> different target environments. In flowing text, you might want to say
> "traditional Chinese" for "zh-Hant", but in an alphabetized menu, somethi=
ng
> like "Chinese, Traditional". That is, order, casing, and wording might
> change between those two environments.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ltru mailing list
> Ltru@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru
>
>

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Hello Mark,
thank you for your helpful explanations. I have used this pa=
rt of CLDR data before in a different context (localization of XML schema).=
 My point "For including such data easily, a common result format for =
language tag analysis would be good. " was that I would not need to im=
plement the CLDR analysis "again" if we would have one result for=
mat for language tag analysis - I would just fetch parts of your results (e=
.g. the localization bit), and you might fetch parts of mine (e.g. the subt=
ag proposals).


Felix


2009/6/28 Mark Davis =E2=8C=
=9B <mark@macchi=
ato.com>

Some comments on one point you raise:

On =
Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 13:47, Felix Sasaki <felix.sasaki@fh-potsdam=
.de> wrote:



... 

Yes. I guess you ar=
e using CLDR data for the localized subtag names? For including such data e=
asily, a common result format for language tag analysis would be good. 



For localization, CLDR uses the structure=
 as you see in http://unicode.org/cldr/data/common/main/de.xml

Language subtags illustrate this:


<ldml>
	<localeDisplayNames><=
br>		<languages>
			<language t=
ype=3D"aa">Afar</language&=
gt;


...

However, the data can also be used to translate compounds,=
 such as 
			<language type=3D&q=
uot;de_AT">=C3=96sterreichisches Deutsch</language<=
/span>>


			<language type=3D"de_CH">Schweizer Hochdeutsch</language>
That means=
 that when getting the localized name for a tag, you have to first try with=
 lang+script+region, then lang+script, then lang+region to see if there are=
 any matches, then remove the fields you got in order to look up the rest.<=
br>


Scripts are similar, but don't have the compounds:
		<scripts>
			<script type=3D"Arab">Arabisch</script>

...
Regions use the name 'territory', having predated BCP =
47:
		<territories>
			<territory type=3D"001">Welt</ter=
ritory>



Variants are simple.
		<variants>
...			<variant type=3D"1994">Standardisierte Resianische Rechtschreibung</variant>


...
 Ideally, however, they should allow for compounds, since for =
goofy compound variant tags like sl-SI-rozaj-njiva-1994, you don't want=
 a term like:

Slovenian (Slovenia,=
 standardized resian orthography, resian, gniva/njiva dialect)




but rather something a bit more readable and less repetitious lik=
e:

Slovenian (Slovenia, gniva/njiv=
a dialect with standardized resian orthography)

And we don'=
;t have support for extensions yet.



To put components together, there are localizable patterns:
		&=
lt;localeDisplayPattern>
			<localePattern>{0} ({1})</localePattern>

			<localeSeparator>, </localeSeparator&=
gt;
While it might be more natural to have structure for something=
 like the following, that is a real challenge for generative localization o=
f language tags, because of grammatical changes required by composition in =
more complex languages.



Chinese written in traditional script=
 as used in Hong Kong

There is, however, the ability to have a=
bbreviations, like:
			<territory type=
=3D"HK">Sonderverwaltungszone Hongkong</=
territory>


			<territory type=3D"HK" alt=3D"short">Hongkong</=
territory>

What we don't have yet is the ability to allow different forms of names=
 for different target environments. In flowing text, you might want to say =
"traditional Chinese" for "zh-Hant", but in an alphabet=
ized menu, something like "Chinese, Traditional". That is, order,=
 casing, and wording might change between those two environments.






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Ltru mailing list

Ltru@ietf.org

ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ltru





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