From hrogge@googlemail.com  Tue Feb  1 08:18:53 2011
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@googlemail.com>
To: manet@ietf.org
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 17:21:59 +0100
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Subject: [manet] OLSR.org NHDP interop result
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Another year, another update...

Today I pushed a number of changes to the OLSR.org NHDP implementation (and=
 a=20
small fix into the packetbb API).

The result does work well together with the NRL NHDP implementation (as lon=
g=20
as you switch on the originator IPs).

Henning Rogge
=2D-=20
1) You can't win.
2) You can't break even.
3) You can't leave the game.
=E2=80=94 The Laws of Thermodynamics, summarized

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-=
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<html><head><meta name=3D"qrichtext" content=3D"1" /><style type=3D"text/cs=
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p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; }
</style></head><body style=3D" font-family:'Monospace'; font-size:9pt; font=
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<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Another yea=
r, another update...</p>
<p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; ma=
rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u=
ser-state:0;"></p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Today I pus=
hed a number of changes to the OLSR.org NHDP implementation (and a small fi=
x into the packetbb API).</p>
<p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; ma=
rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u=
ser-state:0;"></p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">The result =
does work well together with the NRL NHDP implementation (as long as you sw=
itch on the originator IPs).</p>
<p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; ma=
rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u=
ser-state:0;"></p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">Henning Rog=
ge</p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">-- </p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">1) You can'=
t win.</p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">2) You can'=
t break even.</p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">3) You can'=
t leave the game.</p>
<p style=3D" margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; margin-left:0px; margin-rig=
ht:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-user-state:0;">=E2=80=94 T=
he Laws of Thermodynamics, summarized</p>
<p style=3D"-qt-paragraph-type:empty; margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px; ma=
rgin-left:0px; margin-right:0px; -qt-block-indent:0; text-indent:0px; -qt-u=
ser-state:0;"></p></body></html>
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From henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de  Wed Feb  2 03:44:40 2011
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Thread-Topic: [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses
Thread-Index: AcvCzuSD9y0xHN9pR3ullWf6T8lvkA==
From: "Rogge Henning" <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses
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Hi,

We are planning our OLSR.org OLSRv2 implementation at the moment. While
discussing some details of the necessary datastructures of the OLSRv2 =
draft,
we noticed something interesting.

The datastructures in the OLSRv2 draft are designed to store a single
validity time for each stored node-edge or node-attached_network pair, =
it
does not store the validity time per node.

I think we could exploit this fact in OLSRv2.

I propose we allow the usage of a VTIME TLV for the addresses inside a =
TC
message to overwrite the validity times defined in the message TLV for a
address.

An usecase for this would be attached network entries in TCs. In many =
cases
this attached networks are hardwired to the OLSR router, so their status
should stay static for long times. By applying them a longer VTime we =
could
safe space in the rest of the TCs (where we don't need to mention the
attached network) without needing to send the attached network addresses =
in
their own message fragment.

Another usecase would be to allow a local link metric algorithm to =
estimate
the agility of links and set custom validity times for each of them. =
This
could be a way to reduce the network traffic in highly heterogeneous
networks.

The second usecase might require that OLSRv2 allow the usage of =
VTIME-TLVs
in OLSRv2 Hello messages, so that the validity time can be copied into =
the
TCs of their neighbors.

Henning Rogge

--
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr=20
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE=20
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Neuenahrer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,=20
Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, =A0 Fax +49 228 9435 685=20
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
GPG: E1C6 0914 490B 3909 D944 F80D 4487 C67C 55EC CFE0

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From Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com  Wed Feb  2 04:34:22 2011
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "Rogge Henning" <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>, <manet@ietf.org>
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We have considered allowing individual validity times, but
there are some quite unpleasant consequences as I recall,
but right now not the details. Note that NHDP is already
published without such a capability, and NHDP supplies
some of the links you are using.

I'm not sure what "does not store the validity time per
node" means. AR_time essentially does that job.

However attached networks are, as you say, an interesting
case, and the NHDP objection above doesn't apply to them,
nor I think does whatever other issues there may be. That
case may be worth further consideration - although right
now more complications isn't high on my wish list. But
the link metrics case I don't like, as those are going
in HELLO messages, and teh NHDP objection applies in
force.

I also think there is a danger, even with the attached network
case, of pushing further back an already overdue protocol.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
Technology Leader, Communications Group
Communications and Networks Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194  Fax: +44 1245 242124

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87,
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

-----Original Message-----
From: manet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
ogge Henning
Sent: 02 February 2011 11:47
To: manet@ietf.org
Subject: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses

Hi,

We are planning our OLSR.org OLSRv2 implementation at the moment. While
discussing some details of the necessary datastructures of the OLSRv2 draft=
,
we noticed something interesting.

The datastructures in the OLSRv2 draft are designed to store a single
validity time for each stored node-edge or node-attached_network pair, it
does not store the validity time per node.

I think we could exploit this fact in OLSRv2.

I propose we allow the usage of a VTIME TLV for the addresses inside a TC
message to overwrite the validity times defined in the message TLV for a
address.

An usecase for this would be attached network entries in TCs. In many cases
this attached networks are hardwired to the OLSR router, so their status
should stay static for long times. By applying them a longer VTime we could
safe space in the rest of the TCs (where we don't need to mention the
attached network) without needing to send the attached network addresses in
their own message fragment.

Another usecase would be to allow a local link metric algorithm to estimate
the agility of links and set custom validity times for each of them. This
could be a way to reduce the network traffic in highly heterogeneous
networks.

The second usecase might require that OLSRv2 allow the usage of VTIME-TLVs
in OLSRv2 Hello messages, so that the validity time can be copied into the
TCs of their neighbors.

Henning Rogge

--
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr=20
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE=20
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Neuenahrer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,=20
Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, =A0 Fax +49 228 9435 685=20
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
GPG: E1C6 0914 490B 3909 D944 F80D 4487 C67C 55EC CFE0

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> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=20
>=20
> We have considered allowing individual validity times, but=20
> there are some quite unpleasant consequences as I recall, but=20
> right now not the details. Note that NHDP is already=20
> published without such a capability, and NHDP supplies some=20
> of the links you are using.
>=20
> I'm not sure what "does not store the validity time per node"=20
> means. AR_time essentially does that job.
You mean AN_time ?

As I read the section 9.4 of the draft, there is one AN_time value =
stored
for each tuple with a single attached network in it.

So we might have tuples like this (originator, prefix, distance, =
sequence
number, vtime):

(192.168.0.1, 10.0.0.0/16, x, y, 100 seconds)
(192.168.0.1, 10.1.0.0/16, x, y,  50 seconds)

> However attached networks are, as you say, an interesting=20
> case, and the NHDP objection above doesn't apply to them, nor=20
> I think does whatever other issues there may be. That case=20
> may be worth further consideration - although right now more=20
> complications isn't high on my wish list.

> But the link=20
> metrics case I don't like, as those are going in HELLO=20
> messages, and teh NHDP objection applies in force.
I am not completely sure it has to be included into the HELLOs (does =
OLSRv2
handle asymmetric validity times for a link well ?).

And OLSRv2 already adds TLVs to the Hellos, so as long as they don't
conflict with the working of NHDP, adding another TLV to help the other =
node
with creating TCs might be okay. And as long as a node only decrease the
validity time of a link (compared to the value from the Hello), it might
work well.

But the "attached network case" is definitely an easier target.

Henning Rogge

--
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr=20
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE=20
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Neuenahrer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,=20
Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, =A0 Fax +49 228 9435 685=20
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
GPG: E1C6 0914 490B 3909 D944 F80D 4487 C67C 55EC CFE0=20

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From Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com  Wed Feb  2 05:43:11 2011
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "Rogge Henning" <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>, <manet@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses
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I meant AR_time, as I said, which records the validity time of the
node the network is attached to. TC message sending nodes only.

I recall one of the issues with reducing a validity time in a
message, let's consider a HELLO message for example. Default
parameters, period 2 seconds (jittered, but we can ignore that
for now), validity 6 seconds. If you put something in with a
validity  seconds (say) you are a lot less robust against
message loss. If you put something in with a validity time
of 1 second you are going to lose it before your next HELLO
message. So now you have to reduce your HELLO interval to
(say) 1/3 second. But now you could reduce other validity times
as the longer time isn't actually winning you anything (we'll
assume losing more than two in three messages is too bad to
use anyway).

So the net effect is that having a variable validity time
doesn't help, except marginally in message size with a
significantly greater complexity in the distinction between
REFRESH_INTERVAL and HELLO_INTERVAL and partial messages.
And for TC messags we don't have even that currently.

I will note that the attached message case suffers from a
related issue. Let's suppose we are sending TC messages at
5 second intervals, and you want to set an attached message's
validity time to 1 hour rather than 15 seconds. What's that
winning you? Nothing, if you report that attached network in
every TC message. OK, you could (with suitable redefinitions,
that one would have to get right) omit it from most TC
messages. But now you've lost the capability for a new node
to join the network and get quickly (small multiple of 5
seconds worst case) updated to complete network knowledge.
Yes, you could now make reportng the network responsive
(if a new node turns up in your routing table, make one or
more of your next TC messages include attached networks).
More complications - and for links rather than attached
networks doesn't work (potential chicken and egg problem
you may not see the new node without links).

So I think it's a significant additional complication for
a very limited win.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
Technology Leader, Communications Group
Communications and Networks Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194  Fax: +44 1245 242124

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87,
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

-----Original Message-----
From: Rogge Henning [mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de]=20
Sent: 02 February 2011 13:17
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); manet@ietf.org
Subject: AW: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=20
>=20
> We have considered allowing individual validity times, but=20
> there are some quite unpleasant consequences as I recall, but=20
> right now not the details. Note that NHDP is already=20
> published without such a capability, and NHDP supplies some=20
> of the links you are using.
>=20
> I'm not sure what "does not store the validity time per node"=20
> means. AR_time essentially does that job.
You mean AN_time ?

As I read the section 9.4 of the draft, there is one AN_time value stored
for each tuple with a single attached network in it.

So we might have tuples like this (originator, prefix, distance, sequence
number, vtime):

(192.168.0.1, 10.0.0.0/16, x, y, 100 seconds)
(192.168.0.1, 10.1.0.0/16, x, y,  50 seconds)

> However attached networks are, as you say, an interesting=20
> case, and the NHDP objection above doesn't apply to them, nor=20
> I think does whatever other issues there may be. That case=20
> may be worth further consideration - although right now more=20
> complications isn't high on my wish list.

> But the link=20
> metrics case I don't like, as those are going in HELLO=20
> messages, and teh NHDP objection applies in force.
I am not completely sure it has to be included into the HELLOs (does OLSRv2
handle asymmetric validity times for a link well ?).

And OLSRv2 already adds TLVs to the Hellos, so as long as they don't
conflict with the working of NHDP, adding another TLV to help the other nod=
e
with creating TCs might be okay. And as long as a node only decrease the
validity time of a link (compared to the value from the Hello), it might
work well.

But the "attached network case" is definitely an easier target.

Henning Rogge

--
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr=20
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE=20
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Neuenahrer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,=20
Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, =A0 Fax +49 228 9435 685=20
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
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From: "Rogge Henning" <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>, <manet@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses
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> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=20
>=20
> I meant AR_time, as I said, which records the validity time=20
> of the node the network is attached to. TC message sending nodes only.
Okay, but why is this a problem ? If the node vanishes from the net, it =
can
still take its HNAs with it.=20
=20
> I recall one of the issues with reducing a validity time in a=20
> message, let's consider a HELLO message for example. Default=20
> parameters, period 2 seconds (jittered, but we can ignore=20
> that for now), validity 6 seconds. If you put something in=20
> with a validity  seconds (say) you are a lot less robust=20
> against message loss. If you put something in with a validity=20
> time of 1 second you are going to lose it before your next=20
> HELLO message. So now you have to reduce your HELLO interval to
> (say) 1/3 second. But now you could reduce other validity=20
> times as the longer time isn't actually winning you anything=20
> (we'll assume losing more than two in three messages is too=20
> bad to use anyway).
Consider other timings with higher differences between validity time and
interval time.

A typical freifunk/funkfeuer network (as an example) use HELLO timings =
of
2/20 seconds or even 5/100 seconds.

If you have a validity time of 100 seconds, there is lots of space to =
choose
your intervals and "reduced" intervals from.

Considering a link broken just because two of three HELLOs are missing =
will
not work that well on many networks. Even with 10% multicast packet loss
(which will be less than 1% unicast packet loss for WLAN) you will get a
link drop (on average) every 40 minutes (with one HELLO every 2 =
seconds).

> So the net effect is that having a variable validity time=20
> doesn't help, except marginally in message size with a=20
> significantly greater complexity in the distinction between=20
> REFRESH_INTERVAL and HELLO_INTERVAL and partial messages.
> And for TC messags we don't have even that currently.
>=20
> I will note that the attached message case suffers from a=20
> related issue. Let's suppose we are sending TC messages at
> 5 second intervals, and you want to set an attached message's=20
> validity time to 1 hour rather than 15 seconds. What's that=20
> winning you?=20
Typical VTime for our networks is hundreds of seconds because we have
(mostly) stationary nodes. It would make sense to lessen the VTime of =
links
to (or between) mobile nodes to a much smaller value while keeping the =
long
VTime for the stationary nodes.

> Nothing, if you report that attached network in=20
> every TC message. OK, you could (with suitable redefinitions,=20
> that one would have to get right) omit it from most TC=20
> messages. But now you've lost the capability for a new node=20
> to join the network and get quickly (small multiple of 5=20
> seconds worst case) updated to complete network knowledge.
If you increase the interval between updates of static links from 5 to =
60
seconds for static/stable links (as an example) you still have a pretty =
good
working network while you can skip the IPs from 11 out of 12 TCs.

> So I think it's a significant additional complication for a=20
> very limited win.
I don't think it will make implementing the protocol according to the
Draft/RFC much more difficult, but it allows us for increased =
flexibility
which can be useful in my oppinion.

Henning Rogge

--
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr=20
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE=20
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Neuenahrer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,=20
Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, =A0 Fax +49 228 9435 685=20
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
GPG: E1C6 0914 490B 3909 D944 F80D 4487 C67C 55EC CFE0=20

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From Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com  Wed Feb  2 06:37:45 2011
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Thread-Topic: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "Rogge Henning" <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>, <manet@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] [OLSRv2] Variable validity times for TC addresses
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>> I meant AR_time, as I said, which records the validity time 
>> of the node the network is attached to. TC message sending nodes
only.
> Okay, but why is this a problem ? If the node vanishes from the net,
it can
> still take its HNAs with it.

I was replying to you saying there was a problem, or
to be more precise that there weren't any node times.
I didn't suggest there was a problem.
 
> A typical freifunk/funkfeuer network (as an example) use HELLO timings
of
> 2/20 seconds or even 5/100 seconds.

Unimportant. all that matters is ratios, not absolute values. (Well,
until
we get down to very small values, but we're not talking about that
here.)

> If you have a validity time of 100 seconds, there is lots of space to
choose
> your intervals and "reduced" intervals from.

No, same comment.

> Considering a link broken just because two of three HELLOs are missing
will
> not work that well on many networks.

So you up the ratio from x3 to x5 or whatever you want. Again, not the
critical issue.

> Typical VTime for our networks is hundreds of seconds because we have
> (mostly) stationary nodes. It would make sense to lessen the VTime of
links
> to (or between) mobile nodes to a much smaller value while keeping the
long
> VTime for the stationary nodes.

This is missing the point. Either you repeat the information in all
HELLO messages, so longer times don't help, or you don't repeat the
information, with a small overhead saving, increased complexity and
reduced ability for new nodes to join the network (or increased
complexity in an additional way to create TC messages responsive
to adding routes in the routing table).

> I don't think it will make implementing the protocol according to the
> Draft/RFC much more difficult

I think you are mistaken there.

> but it allows us for increased flexibility which can be useful in my
oppinion.

And I think you are mistaken there too, unless running a
system where responsiveness of new nodes isn't important.

I'm going to apologise in advance now for not being able to
contine this discussion right now, other things to do.

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What is ZRP? do you mean Zone Routing Protocol,

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What is ZRP? do you mean Zone Routing Protocol,

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From charliep@computer.org  Wed Feb  9 12:33:48 2011
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Hello folks,

Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
they are using?

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html

Regards,
Charlie P.


From emmanuel.baccelli@gmail.com  Wed Feb  9 12:58:56 2011
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From: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>
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Hi Charlie,
I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like L2 stuff
rather than anything else. See:
http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf
Emmanuel

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins <charliep@computer.org>wrote:

>
> Hello folks,
>
> Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
> they are using?
>
>
> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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Hi Charlie,<div>I don&#39;t know what you mean by protocol, but it does see=
m like L2 stuff rather than anything else. See: <a href=3D"http://www.cedt.=
iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Ke=
ynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf</a></div>


<div>Emmanuel<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33=
 PM, Charles E. Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charliep@co=
mputer.org" target=3D"_blank">charliep@computer.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


<br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
Does anyone here happen to know what protocol<br>
they are using?<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-=
new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate=
-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html</a><br=
>



<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From charles.perkins@earthlink.net  Wed Feb  9 13:24:01 2011
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Hello Emmanuel,

I did look at the presentation.  Great slides!  Not
enough technical information!  It could well be
something similar to 802.11s, or  ... what?

Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.

One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have
"service identifiers" at layer two :-) [e.g., see
slide 30].


Regards,
Charlie P.



On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
> Hi Charlie,
> I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like L2 stuff
> rather than anything else. See:
> http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf
> Emmanuel
>
> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins
> <charliep@computer.org <mailto:charliep@computer.org>> wrote:
>
>
>     Hello folks,
>
>     Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
>     they are using?
>
>     http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
>
>     Regards,
>     Charlie P.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     manet mailing list
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From emmanuel.baccelli@gmail.com  Wed Feb  9 13:52:29 2011
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Hi Charlie,
yes I also noticed how the presentation does not mention any multi-hop...
Maybe it's left out and our job to provide it ;)
Emmanuel

On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Charles E. Perkins <
charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> Hello Emmanuel,
>
> I did look at the presentation.  Great slides!  Not
> enough technical information!  It could well be
> something similar to 802.11s, or  ... what?
>
> Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.
>
> One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have
> "service identifiers" at layer two :-) [e.g., see
> slide 30].
>
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
>
> On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
>
>> Hi Charlie,
>> I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like L2 stuff
>> rather than anything else. See:
>>
>> http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf
>> Emmanuel
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins
>> <charliep@computer.org <mailto:charliep@computer.org>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>    Hello folks,
>>
>>    Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
>>    they are using?
>>
>>
>> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
>>
>>    Regards,
>>    Charlie P.
>>
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    manet mailing list
>>    manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>
>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
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--20cf3054acf1bdeb41049be07b12
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Charlie,<div>yes I also noticed how the presentation does not mention an=
y multi-hop... Maybe it&#39;s left out and our job to provide it ;)</div><d=
iv>Emmanuel<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:24 =
PM, Charles E. Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perk=
ins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class=3D"im"><br>
Hello Emmanuel,<br>
<br>
I did look at the presentation. =A0Great slides! =A0Not<br>
enough technical information! =A0It could well be<br>
something similar to 802.11s, or =A0... what?<br>
<br>
Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.<br>
<br>
One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have<br>
&quot;service identifiers&quot; at layer two :-) [e.g., see<br>
slide 30].<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">
Hi Charlie,<br>
I don&#39;t know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like L2 stuff<=
br>
rather than anything else. See:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keyn=
ote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/peopl=
e/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf</a><br>
Emmanuel<br>
<br>
On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins<br></div><div class=3D"i=
m">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charliep@computer.org" target=3D"_blank">charliep@com=
puter.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:charliep@computer.org" target=3D=
"_blank">charliep@computer.org</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Hello folks,<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0Does anyone here happen to know what protocol<br>
 =A0 =A0they are using?<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demo=
nstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html=
" target=3D"_blank">http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-dem=
onstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.htm=
l</a><br>


<br>
 =A0 =A0Regards,<br>
 =A0 =A0Charlie P.<br>
<br>
 =A0 =A0_______________________________________________<br>
 =A0 =A0manet mailing list<br></div>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org<=
/a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<div class=3D"im"><br>
 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_=
blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></blockquote><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5">
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--20cf3054acf1bdeb41049be07b12--

From geoff.ietf@mulligan.com  Wed Feb  9 14:28:09 2011
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To: "Charles E. Perkins" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Cc: Emmanuel Baccelli <Emmanuel.Baccelli@inria.fr>, Manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Ad-hoc networking arrives?
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I agree.  It looks like lots of P2P links.  Is it really direct P2P or
really just IP through the central switch appearing to be P2P.

	geoff

On Wed, 2011-02-09 at 13:24 -0800, Charles E. Perkins wrote:
> Hello Emmanuel,
> 
> I did look at the presentation.  Great slides!  Not
> enough technical information!  It could well be
> something similar to 802.11s, or  ... what?
> 
> Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.
> 
> One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have
> "service identifiers" at layer two :-) [e.g., see
> slide 30].
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
> 
> 
> 
> On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
> > Hi Charlie,
> > I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like L2 stuff
> > rather than anything else. See:
> > http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf
> > Emmanuel
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins
> > <charliep@computer.org <mailto:charliep@computer.org>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >     Hello folks,
> >
> >     Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
> >     they are using?
> >
> >     http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
> >
> >     Regards,
> >     Charlie P.
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     manet mailing list
> >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> 
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



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Hi Emmanuel

It's actually something related to the Hipercom team :-P
http://ralyx.inria.fr/2009/Raweb/hipercom/uid156.html


On 2011/2/9 22:52, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
> Hi Charlie,
> yes I also noticed how the presentation does not mention any 
> multi-hop... Maybe it's left out and our job to provide it ;)
> Emmanuel
>
> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Charles E. Perkins 
> <charles.perkins@earthlink.net <mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>> 
> wrote:
>
>
>     Hello Emmanuel,
>
>     I did look at the presentation.  Great slides!  Not
>     enough technical information!  It could well be
>     something similar to 802.11s, or  ... what?
>
>     Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.
>
>     One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have
>     "service identifiers" at layer two :-) [e.g., see
>     slide 30].
>
>
>     Regards,
>     Charlie P.
>
>
>
>     On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
>
>         Hi Charlie,
>         I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like
>         L2 stuff
>         rather than anything else. See:
>         http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf
>         Emmanuel
>
>         On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins
>         <charliep@computer.org <mailto:charliep@computer.org>
>         <mailto:charliep@computer.org <mailto:charliep@computer.org>>>
>         wrote:
>
>
>            Hello folks,
>
>            Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
>            they are using?
>
>         http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
>
>            Regards,
>            Charlie P.
>
>            _______________________________________________
>            manet mailing list
>         manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org> <mailto:manet@ietf.org
>         <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         manet mailing list
>         manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     manet mailing list
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


-- 
YI Jiazi

Postdoc researcher
Hipercom@LIX, Ecole Polytechnique
91128 Palaiseau Cedex France
www.jiaziyi.com


--------------040705000100030108010009
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
      http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
    Hi Emmanuel<br>
    <br>
    It's actually something related to the Hipercom team :-P<br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ralyx.inria.fr/2009/Raweb/hipercom/uid156.html">http://ralyx.inria.fr/2009/Raweb/hipercom/uid156.html</a><br>
    <br>
    <br>
    On 2011/2/9 22:52, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:AANLkTi=FdthMdREuAwhbWJfuSYh+RnQ5WwCtEThXL_A_@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">Hi Charlie,
      <div>yes I also noticed how the presentation does not mention any
        multi-hop... Maybe it's left out and our job to provide it ;)</div>
      <div>Emmanuel<br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:24 PM,
          Charles E. Perkins <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
              moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
            0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
            padding-left: 1ex;">
            <div class="im"><br>
              Hello Emmanuel,<br>
              <br>
              I did look at the presentation. &nbsp;Great slides! &nbsp;Not<br>
              enough technical information! &nbsp;It could well be<br>
              something similar to 802.11s, or &nbsp;... what?<br>
              <br>
              Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.<br>
              <br>
              One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have<br>
              "service identifiers" at layer two :-) [e.g., see<br>
              slide 30].<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              Regards,<br>
              Charlie P.<br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
              0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
              padding-left: 1ex;">
              <div class="im">
                Hi Charlie,<br>
                I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem
                like L2 stuff<br>
                rather than anything else. See:<br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf"
                  target="_blank">http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-Laroia.pdf</a><br>
                Emmanuel<br>
                <br>
                On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins<br>
              </div>
              <div class="im">
                &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:charliep@computer.org" target="_blank">charliep@computer.org</a>
                &lt;mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:charliep@computer.org" target="_blank">charliep@computer.org</a>&gt;&gt;
                wrote:<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;Hello folks,<br>
                <br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;Does anyone here happen to know what protocol<br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;they are using?<br>
                <br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html"
                  target="_blank">http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html</a><br>
                <br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;Regards,<br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;Charlie P.<br>
                <br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;_______________________________________________<br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;manet mailing list<br>
              </div>
              &nbsp; &nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org"
                target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a
                moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org"
                target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;
              <div class="im"><br>
                &nbsp; &nbsp;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"
                  target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                _______________________________________________<br>
                manet mailing list<br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org"
                  target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"
                  target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div>
              <div class="h5">
                <br>
                _______________________________________________<br>
                manet mailing list<br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org"
                  target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"
                  target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>
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</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
YI Jiazi 

Postdoc researcher 
Hipercom@LIX, Ecole Polytechnique
91128 Palaiseau Cedex France
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.jiaziyi.com">www.jiaziyi.com</a></pre>
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</html>

--------------040705000100030108010009--

From prkumar@illinois.edu  Wed Feb  9 12:37:42 2011
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From: "Kumar, P R" <prkumar@illinois.edu>
To: "charliep@computer.org" <charliep@computer.org>
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:37:50 -0600
Thread-Topic: [manet] Ad-hoc networking arrives?
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Dear Charlie,
I believe this is their new FlashlinQ scheme.
Please see
http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-L=
aroia.pdf
Regards,
Kumar

--------------
P. R. Kumar
Franklin Woeltge Professor of Electrical and Computer Engineering, and
Research Professor, Coordinated Science Lab

Office: Room 163, CSL		Campus Mail Code: MC-228
Mailing Address:			Office: 217-333-7476
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On Feb 9, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins wrote:

>=20
> Hello folks,
>=20
> Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
> they are using?
>=20
> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-=
to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil  Thu Feb 10 10:28:08 2011
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The Ad hoc term never implied multi-hop and its not always needed.
There is lot of interesting things that can be done at L2 to develop a =
more robust ad hoc system.

I dont think highly mobile, multi-hop is what they are initiially =
targeting but rather ad hoc type edge networking,etc.
As they say proximate networking.  The integration of slot coordination =
and ad hoc discovery etc as in the slides is pretty cool.
Looks pretty cool to me but it may not be what you were expecting.

I suggest Qualcomm (Scott Corson) is the place for more releasable =
details since its more of a proximate (1 km,etc numbers) P2P system =
approach.
I am sure designs (backhaul interactions, overlays, etc) could continue =
to evolve as well to  complement such systems.

-Joe

On Feb 9, 2011, at 4:52 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:

> Hi Charlie,
> yes I also noticed how the presentation does not mention any =
multi-hop... Maybe it's left out and our job to provide it ;)
> Emmanuel
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:24 PM, Charles E. Perkins =
<charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Emmanuel,
>=20
> I did look at the presentation.  Great slides!  Not
> enough technical information!  It could well be
> something similar to 802.11s, or  ... what?
>=20
> Interestingly, slide 35 does NOT show multi-hop.
>=20
> One can hope that the advertisements do NOT have
> "service identifiers" at layer two :-) [e.g., see
> slide 30].
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 2/9/2011 12:58 PM, Emmanuel Baccelli wrote:
> Hi Charlie,
> I don't know what you mean by protocol, but it does seem like L2 stuff
> rather than anything else. See:
> =
http://www.cedt.iisc.ernet.in/people/kuri/Comsnets/Keynotes/Keynote-Rajiv-=
Laroia.pdf
> Emmanuel
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Charles E. Perkins
> <charliep@computer.org <mailto:charliep@computer.org>> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>    Hello folks,
>=20
>    Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
>    they are using?
>=20
>    =
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-t=
o-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html
>=20
>    Regards,
>    Charlie P.
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>    manet mailing list
>    manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>=20
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
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From jpmacker@gmail.com  Thu Feb 10 23:42:39 2011
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Beginning to construct a draft agenda for manet WG in Prague.
Please email any additional requests for topics,etc.

The working group document status review and updates will take precedence.

From Marc.Mosko@parc.com  Thu Feb 10 11:01:08 2011
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Qualcomm has an SDK out already called Alljoyn:  
http://developer.qualcomm.com/dev/alljoyn-p2p

Marc Mosko

On 7/22/64 11:59 AM, Charles E. Perkins wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> Does anyone here happen to know what protocol
> they are using?
>
> http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/qualcomm-to-demonstrate-new-peer-to-peer-technology-at-mobile-world-congress-115550929.html 
>
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>

From robert.g.cole@us.army.mil  Fri Feb 11 11:57:28 2011
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Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Joe,

Two items.

+ I assume that Ulrich would want to update on the NHDP and OLSRv2 MIBs.

+ I would like to update on the DYMO, SMF and REPORT MIBs.

Thanks,
Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: manet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
Of Joseph Macker
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 2:43 AM
To: manet@ietf.org
Subject: [manet] Agenda Items for Upcoming Prague MANET Meeting

Beginning to construct a draft agenda for manet WG in Prague.
Please email any additional requests for topics,etc.

The working group document status review and updates will take
precedence.
_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



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From ulrich@herberg.name  Fri Feb 11 13:04:07 2011
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Subject: Re: [manet] Agenda Items for Upcoming Prague MANET Meeting (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Joe, Ian,

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Cole, Robert G Dr CIV USA
<Robert.G.Cole@us.army.mil> wrote:
> + I assume that Ulrich would want to update on the NHDP and OLSRv2 MIBs.

I confirm that.

I would also like to present updates on the security documents. I plan
to revise and resubmit the NHDP-sec document, and then would like to
ask the working group whether the document could be considered as WG
I-D. Concerning the packetbb-sec document, my personal feeling is that
it is ready for WG LC.

Ulrich

From jpmacker@gmail.com  Sat Feb 12 19:06:40 2011
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Subject: Re: [manet] Agenda Items for Upcoming Prague MANET Meeting (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Perfect. WG docs are the core of the agenda.

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Cole, Robert G Dr CIV USA
<Robert.G.Cole@us.army.mil> wrote:
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
> Joe,
>
> Two items.
>
> + I assume that Ulrich would want to update on the NHDP and OLSRv2 MIBs.
>
> + I would like to update on the DYMO, SMF and REPORT MIBs.
>
> Thanks,
> Bob
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Joseph Macker
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 2:43 AM
> To: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: [manet] Agenda Items for Upcoming Prague MANET Meeting
>
> Beginning to construct a draft agenda for manet WG in Prague.
> Please email any additional requests for topics,etc.
>
> The working group document status review and updates will take
> precedence.
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>
>
>

From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com  Wed Feb 16 08:33:25 2011
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: manet@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [manet] Ad-hoc networking arrives?
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--00163630ed19a91794049c68d852
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Yes, I agree, the protocol looks similar to 802.11s, but it does not use
multi-hop communication, without routing, and it is using smart antennas for
the destination discovery. However, I agree that it is not clear yet, but it
does not seem as a power efficient system, if it will cover to distance
above 500m.

Abdussalam

--00163630ed19a91794049c68d852
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<div><br>Yes, I agree, the protocol=A0looks similar to 802.11s, but it does=
 not use multi-hop communication, without routing, and it is=A0using smart =
antennas for the destination discovery. However, I agree that it is not cle=
ar yet, but it does not seem as a=A0power efficient system, if it will=A0co=
ver to distance above 500m.</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Abdussalam</div>

--00163630ed19a91794049c68d852--

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Definition of Managed Objects for Performance Reporting
	Author(s)       : R. Cole, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-report-mib-01.txt
	Pages           : 74
	Date            : 2011-02-17

This memo defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB)
for use with network management protocols in the Internet community.
In particular, it describes objects for configuring autonomous report
generation on any device that supports MIBs containing counter and
gauge objects for performance monitoring.  This allows a management
station to instruct a device to build off-line reports to be
collected asynchronously by the management station.  Further, this
REPORT-MIB can be configured in a proxy configuration where the
report generation is performed on a device in close network proximity
to the device containing the referenced counter objects.  Hence, this
capability allows network operators to reduce the SNMP polling
traffic burden on Mobile Ad-Hoc and Disruption Tolerant Networks
which is typical of SNMP performance management applications.  This
capability also improves the accuracy of the performance reports by
minimizing the delay variation between the reporting agent (this MIB)
and the data monitor (the MIB containing the monitored counter
objects).

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-manet-report-mib-01.txt

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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From shep@xplot.org  Thu Feb 17 09:22:19 2011
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From: Tim Shepard <shep@alum.mit.edu>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
In-reply-to: Your message of Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:33:52 +0000. <AANLkTimMcE_mGbrV1vVo2hUOK6zFcUFjY1nVXWu4j_Zi@mail.gmail.com> 
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> Yes, I agree, the protocol looks similar to 802.11s, but it does not use
> multi-hop communication, without routing, and it is using smart antennas for
> the destination discovery. However, I agree that it is not clear yet, but it
> does not seem as a power efficient system, if it will cover to distance
> above 500m.

Compared to what?  Multihop?  But multihop requires the deployment of
intermediate nodes. If I'm here and you're there and we're going to
want to communicate using this scheme and we want it to be multihop to
improve its energy efficiency, then we would also have to somehow
arrange for the deployment of intermediate nodes (which is not likely
to happen).  There doesn't seem to be much point in having multihop in
this context.

The energy saving gains from multihop are the same kind of gain you
get from directionality.  Omni antennas with a single ideally placed
intermediate node saves you half the power (1/4 power on each of two
transmissions, 1/4 times 2 is 1/2).  You could also save half the
power with a measely 3 dB of combined antenna gain at sender and
receiver (e.g. could be 1.5 dB at the sender plus 1.5 dB at the
receiver).  If you look at system performance gain vs the increased
system complexity costs for for both (1) multihop and (2) increased
gain from directional antennas, it seems that in most likely scenarios
you get a better payoff by putting the effort into antenna gain.  And
the antenna gain also lets you do things you otherwise would not be
able to do when there are no intermediate nodes.

Yes, you can do both.  But if you were getting started and cannot do
everything in version 1.0 and want to decide which to do first,
directional gain from better antennas wins over multihop, and it is
not even close.


			-Tim Shepard
			 shep@alum.mit.edu


From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com  Fri Feb 18 11:37:19 2011
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: manet@ietf.org
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--00163630ed1963ec06049c93a68d
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>Compared to what?  Multihop?  But multihop requires the deployment of
>intermediate nodes. If I'm here and you're there and we're going to
>want to communicate using this scheme and we want it to be multihop to
>improve its energy efficiency, then we would also have to somehow
>arrange for the deployment of intermediate nodes (which is not likely
>to happen).  There doesn't seem to be much point in having multihop in
>this context.
> If you look at system performance gain vs the increased
>system complexity costs for for both (1) multihop and (2) increased
>gain from directional antennas, it seems that in most likely scenarios
>you get a better payoff by putting the effort into antenna gain.  And
>the antenna gain also lets you do things you otherwise would not be
>able to do when there are no intermediate nodes.
>Yes, you can do both.  But if you were getting started and cannot do
>everything in version 1.0 and want to decide which to do first,
>directional gain from better antennas wins over multihop, and it is
>not even close.
Multihop is good in MANET, not very good in fixed nodes deployment, because
I think that the discussed network has a neighbor discovery phase which will
consumes source node energy until it identifies destination position, then
there can be a point to point communication phase. In the presentation sent
by Emmanual, it seems like a MANET to me, so I thought using multihop and
routing discovering at layer_3 can be more efficient because of
node mobility.

Abdussalam,
ICRC, UK

--00163630ed1963ec06049c93a68d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div>&gt;Compared to what?=A0 Multihop?=A0 But multihop requires the deploy=
ment of<br>&gt;intermediate nodes. If I&#39;m here and you&#39;re there and=
 we&#39;re going to<br>&gt;want to communicate using this scheme and we wan=
t it to be multihop to<br>
&gt;improve its energy efficiency, then we would also have to somehow<br>&g=
t;arrange for the deployment of intermediate nodes (which is not likely<br>=
&gt;to happen).=A0 There doesn&#39;t seem to be much point in having multih=
op in<br>
&gt;this context.<br>&gt;=A0If you look at system performance gain vs the i=
ncreased<br>&gt;system complexity costs for for both (1) multihop and (2) i=
ncreased<br>&gt;gain from directional antennas, it seems that in most likel=
y scenarios<br>
&gt;you get a better payoff by putting the effort into antenna gain.=A0 And=
<br>&gt;the antenna gain also lets you do things you otherwise would not be=
<br>&gt;able to do when there are no intermediate nodes.<br>&gt;Yes, you ca=
n do both.=A0 But if you were getting started and cannot do<br>
&gt;everything in version 1.0 and want to decide which to do first,<br>&gt;=
directional gain from better antennas wins over multihop, and it is<br>&gt;=
not even close.<br></div>
<div>Multihop is good in MANET, not=A0very good in=A0fixed nodes deployment=
, because I think=A0that the discussed network=A0has=A0a neighbor discovery=
 phase which will consumes source node energy until it identifies destinati=
on position, then there can be a point to point communication phase. In the=
 presentation sent by Emmanual, it seems like a MANET to me, so I thought u=
sing multihop and routing discovering at layer_3 can be more efficient beca=
use of node=A0mobility.</div>

<div>=A0</div>
<div>Abdussalam,</div>
<div>ICRC, UK</div>

--00163630ed1963ec06049c93a68d--

From gnawali@cs.stanford.edu  Sat Feb 19 08:28:27 2011
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On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:37 AM, Abdussalam Baryun
<abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Compared to what?=A0 Multihop?=A0 But multihop requires the deployment of
>>intermediate nodes. If I'm here and you're there and we're going to
>>want to communicate using this scheme and we want it to be multihop to
>>improve its energy efficiency, then we would also have to somehow
>>arrange for the deployment of intermediate nodes (which is not likely
>>to happen).=A0 There doesn't seem to be much point in having multihop in
>>this context.
>>=A0If you look at system performance gain vs the increased
>>system complexity costs for for both (1) multihop and (2) increased
>>gain from directional antennas, it seems that in most likely scenarios
>>you get a better payoff by putting the effort into antenna gain.=A0 And
>>the antenna gain also lets you do things you otherwise would not be
>>able to do when there are no intermediate nodes.
>>Yes, you can do both.=A0 But if you were getting started and cannot do
>>everything in version 1.0 and want to decide which to do first,
>>directional gain from better antennas wins over multihop, and it is
>>not even close.
> Multihop is good in MANET, not=A0very good in=A0fixed nodes deployment, b=
ecause
> I think=A0that the discussed network=A0has=A0a neighbor discovery phase w=
hich will
> consumes source node energy until it identifies destination position, the=
n
> there can be a point to point communication phase. In the presentation se=
nt
> by Emmanual, it seems like a MANET to me, so I thought using multihop and
> routing discovering at layer_3 can be more efficient because of
> node=A0mobility.

Unless what you mean by "fixed nodes deployment" is a deployment where
the link characteristics are static. There are many examples of
network deployments where the nodes are physically fixed yet multihop
is the right solution.

- om_p

From mscorson@gmail.com  Mon Feb 28 10:53:45 2011
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Subject: [manet] FlashLinq
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Hey everyone...

I heard there was a little discussion about FlashLinq on this list, so
I thought I'd clarify a few things:

* It's not yet commercially available.  :-(

* It's designed to run synchronously in dedicated TDD spectrum.

* It can support multi-hop networking, though it need not (and often
would not) be used in that fashion.

We publicly announced it at MWC in Barcelona.  There's a video of a
demo somewhere on enGadget.

Here's a website with some details.

http://www.qualcomm.com/research/flashlinq

In particular, a recent IEEE Wireless Comms paper gives some insight
into the thinking behind its design.

http://www.qualcomm.com/documents/toward-proximity-aware-internetworking

Cheers,

-Scott & Vince