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From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
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Subject: [manet] Agenda slot requests
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Hello,

the MANET meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday, 9am. However,
Adrian requested a slot change to Monday, 3.20pm. I will send out another
email once the final agenda is posted.

Please send me your requests for presentation slots.

Thanks
Ulrich

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<div dir="ltr"><div>Hello,<br><br></div>the MANET meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday, 9am. However, Adrian requested a slot change to Monday, 3.20pm. I will send out another email once the final agenda is posted.<br>
<div><br>Please send me your requests for presentation slots. <br><br>Thanks<br>Ulrich<br></div></div>

--047d7b34394035526504f19a5a3e--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Tue Feb  4 20:17:13 2014
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Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Dynamic MANET On-demand (AODVv2) Routing
        Authors         : Charles E. Perkins
                          Stan Ratliff
                          John Dowdell
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03.txt
	Pages           : 51
	Date            : 2014-02-04

Abstract:
   The revised Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) routing
   protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop
   networks.  AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers
   within the network in an on-demand fashion, offering on-demand
   convergence in dynamic topologies.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com  Wed Feb  5 02:29:01 2014
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To: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
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Of the OLSRv2 related documents
- There are four documents with the RFC Editor, those can be covered by the=
 progress report saying that.
- There are two documents in IETF LC. We can probably summarise progress re=
port in a slide (or more if we get significant feedback) attached to someth=
ing.
- Assuming MT-OLSRv2 is accepted as a WG item (which all the feedback on th=
e list so far is consistent with) we'd like a slot for that. I think we wan=
t a reasonable length slot here, to summarise what the model is, some detai=
ls (including some enabled by the TLV extensions draft), and time for discu=
ssion. You can put me down for that I think.

(I expect have a small personal draft, not yet published, that would also b=
e worth about a slide in there somewhere.)

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ulrich Herberg
Sent: 04 February 2014 20:19
To: manet@ietf.org
Subject: [manet] Agenda slot requests


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ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Hello,
the MANET meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday, 9am. However, Adria=
n requested a slot change to Monday, 3.20pm. I will send out another email =
once the final agenda is posted.

Please send me your requests for presentation slots.

Thanks
Ulrich
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Of the OLSRv2 related doc=
uments<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- There are four document=
s with the RFC Editor, those can be covered by the progress report saying t=
hat.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- There are two documents=
 in IETF LC. We can probably summarise progress report in a slide (or more =
if we get significant feedback) attached to something.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">- Assuming MT-OLSRv2 is a=
ccepted as a WG item (which all the feedback on the list so far is consiste=
nt with) we&#8217;d like a slot for that. I think we want a reasonable
 length slot here, to summarise what the model is, some details (including =
some enabled by the TLV extensions draft), and time for discussion. You can=
 put me down for that I think.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">(I expect have a small pe=
rsonal draft, not yet published, that would also be worth about a slide in =
there somewhere.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ulrich Herberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 04 February 2014 20:19<br>
<b>To:</b> manet@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [manet] Agenda slot requests<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
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s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
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 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hello,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the MANET meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesd=
ay, 9am. However, Adrian requested a slot change to Monday, 3.20pm. I will =
send out another email once the final agenda is posted.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Please send me your requests for presentation slots. <br>
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Ulrich<o:p></o:p></p>
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Deleted milestone "Submit Reactive Protocol to IESG".

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On 02/04/2014 09:19 PM, Ulrich Herberg wrote:
> Hello,
>=20
> the MANET meeting is currently scheduled for Wednesday, 9am. However,
> Adrian requested a slot change to Monday, 3.20pm. I will send out
> another email once the final agenda is posted.
>=20
> Please send me your requests for presentation slots.

I will be in London and I will publish a new version of the metric draft
next Friday. I think we should have a timeslot to discuss what to do
with it.

Henning Rogge
--=20
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de


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From abdussalambaryun@gmail.com  Thu Feb  6 17:10:47 2014
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Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2014 02:10:45 +0100
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: manet <manet@ietf.org>, "T.Clausen" <T.Clausen@computer.org>
Subject: [manet] Reviewing draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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The draft is very interesting and I add to ones supporting adoption.
However, I will give my review comments for discussions or future
progress.

Draft>This specification describes an extension to the Optimized Link State
Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to support multiple routing
topologies, while retaining interoperability with OLSRv2 routers that
do not implement this extension.

AB> so the extension allows both OLSRv2 and MT-OLSRv2 interoperate,
but are there any conditions?

Draft> The purpose of this specification is to extend [OLSRv2] so as to
enable a router to establish and maintain multiple routing topologies
in a MANET, each topology associated with a link metric type.

AB> Do you mean while retaining interoperability with few OLSRv2 in
the MANET? usually when mentioning MANET in the draft I expect its
nodes are routers of MT-OLSRv2 not non-MT-OLSRv2.

AB> By increasing numbers of the non-MT-OLSRv2 within the MANET there
may be disadvantages for the MT-OLSRv2 maintenance of its topologies.
There should be a limit or some considerations for interoperability
without MT errors.

AB> Section 4, is very important but needs more work to clarify the
protocol functions. As I did not understand if it is a MUST that all
MPRs are MT-OLSRv2 or few/one can be non-MT-OLSRv2.

Thanks to the authors,
AB

From ulrich@herberg.name  Sat Feb  8 12:28:10 2014
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--001a11c2cc58db8dcc04f1eaf195
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Date: Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 11:43 AM
Subject: Draft deadline for London
To: routing-discussion@ietf.org, rtg-chairs@ietf.org


Not sure how or why this happened, but please note that the draft deadline
for
IETF-89 is

> 2014-02-14 (Friday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all
> drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF ID
> Submission Tool.

That is a Friday night, not the usual Monday morning.

You have been warned!

Please spread the word.

Adrian

--001a11c2cc58db8dcc04f1eaf195
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

<div dir="ltr"><br><div class="gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: <b class="gmail_sendername">Adrian Farrel</b> <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 11:43 AM<br>Subject: Draft deadline for London<br>To: <a href="mailto:routing-discussion@ietf.org">routing-discussion@ietf.org</a>, <a href="mailto:rtg-chairs@ietf.org">rtg-chairs@ietf.org</a><br>
<br><br>Not sure how or why this happened, but please note that the draft deadline for<br>
IETF-89 is<br>
<br>
&gt; 2014-02-14 (Friday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all<br>
&gt; drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59, upload using IETF ID<br>
&gt; Submission Tool.<br>
<br>
That is a Friday night, not the usual Monday morning.<br>
<br>
You have been warned!<br>
<br>
Please spread the word.<br>
<br>
Adrian<br></div></div>

--001a11c2cc58db8dcc04f1eaf195--

From sratliff@cisco.com  Mon Feb 10 09:26:19 2014
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Thread-Topic: Conclusion on WG adoption of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Thomas,

The deadline for objections having passed, the document is adopted as a WG =
doc.

Regards,
Stan

On Feb 10, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<mail=
to:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:

Dear WG Chairs,
Dear WG Secretary,

The February 7 deadline for providing comments to the document on the list =
has come and gone.

A new deadline, this Friday morning, is looming, this time for submitting I=
-Ds for publication prior to the London IETF meeting.

The authors would like to inquire as to your conclusion of the call-for-WG-=
adoption of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology.

We permit ourselves to inquire at this time, so as to know if a draft-ietf-=
manet-olsrv2-multitopology document should be prepared, and submitted befor=
e Friday's deadline?

In hoping for a positive answer from you, and for the authors.

Respectfully,

Thomas

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Stan Ratliff (sratliff)" <sratliff@cisco.com<mailto:sratliff@cisco.c=
om>>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02 -> WG
Date: 29 Jan 2014 18:14:54 GMT+1
To: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name<mailto:ulrich@herberg.name>>, List =
List <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>>

Hello again working group participants -

Ulrich reminds me that open-ended questions such as the one I asked are usu=
ally not a good idea. Therefore, I'll rephrase:

If there are any significant objections to accepting this document as a WG =
doc, please post to the list by Feb. 7. Otherwise, we will consider lack of=
 comment as acceptance, and make the draft a WG document.

Regards,
Stan

On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:17 AM, Stan Ratliff (sratliff) <sratliff@cisco.com<m=
ailto:sratliff@cisco.com>> wrote:

Chris/Thomas,

My apologies for the delay.

Working Group,

What say you? Do we have consensus to proceed with this document as a WG do=
c?

Regards,
Stan


On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name<mailto:ul=
rich@herberg.name>>
 wrote:

Joe, Stan,

have you received the below email? Can you please respond?

Thanks
Ulrich

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Thomas Heide Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<mailto:thomas@thomascl=
ausen.org>>
Date: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02 -> WG
To: Christopher Dearlove <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:Chris.Dearlo=
ve@baesystems.com>>
Cc: Joe Macker <joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil<mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mi=
l>>, Stan Ratliff <sratliff@cisco.com<mailto:sratliff@cisco.com>>, Ulrich H=
erberg <ulrich@herberg.name<mailto:ulrich@herberg.name>>, Adrian Farrel <ad=
rian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>


Dear WG chairs, WG secretary, Area Director,

First, happy new year. I hope that you were able to spend some time with yo=
ur loved ones over the holidays, and that health and happiness may be with =
you in the new year.

I wanted to remind you of the request from Chris (below), sent to you a bit=
 more than a month ago. As I've seen no emails from you to regarding this, =
I permit myself to reiterate the request for WG adoption of draft-dearlove-=
manet-olsrv2-multitopolgy-02 - so that we may advance also this document fo=
rward, hopefully rapidly, towards publication as experimental RFC.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Respectfully,

Thomas

On 20 Dec 2013, at 17:07 , Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <Chris.Dearlove@baesy=
stems.com<mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:

Joe, Stan

We have submitted draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02, which inclu=
des what we knew we were missing from the previous draft.

We would therefore like to ask the WG to accept this. Obviously this close =
to the Christmas/New Year holiday, after those (as immediately after those =
as possible) would be appropriate. (Same timeframe as IETF LC on other draf=
ts I hope).

In the meanwhile, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all,

Christopher

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194<tel:%2B44%201245%20242194> |  Fax: +44 1245 242124<tel=
:%2B44%201245%20242124>
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com<http://www.baesystems.com/>

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************



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--_000_51F9D23C8ADC4E7DBAF6CCC05BAE7594ciscocom_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-ID: <D3D9AED34964FE4B8B5CF940E7E229E1@emea.cisco.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; ">
Thomas,&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The deadline for objections having passed, the document is adopted as =
a WG doc.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Stan</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Feb 10, 2014, at 11:49 AM, Thomas Clausen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tho=
mas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
Dear WG Chairs,&nbsp;
<div>Dear WG Secretary,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The February 7 deadline for providing comments to the document on the =
list has come and gone.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>A new deadline, this Friday morning, is looming, this time for submitt=
ing I-Ds for publication prior to the London IETF meeting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The authors would like to inquire as to your conclusion of the call-fo=
r-WG-adoption of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We permit ourselves to inquire at this time, so as to know if a draft-=
ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology document should be prepared, and submitted =
before Friday's deadline?<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In hoping for a positive answer from you, and for the authors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Respectfully,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thomas</div>
<div><br>
<div>Begin forwarded message:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; "><b>From: </b></span><span style=3D=
"font-family:'Helvetica';">&quot;Stan Ratliff (sratliff)&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:sratliff@cisco.com">sratliff@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; "><b>Subject: </b></span><span style=
=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>Re: [manet] draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-mu=
ltitopology-02 -&gt; WG</b><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; "><b>Date: </b></span><span style=3D=
"font-family:'Helvetica';">29 Jan 2014 18:14:54 GMT&#43;1<br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px;">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; "><b>To: </b></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:'Helvetica';">Ulrich Herberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich@herber=
g.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt;, List List &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@=
ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
</span></div>
<br>
<div>
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; ">
Hello again working group participants -&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ulrich reminds me that open-ended questions such as the one I asked ar=
e usually not a good idea. Therefore, I'll rephrase:&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If there are any significant objections to accepting this document as =
a WG doc, please post to the list by Feb. 7. Otherwise, we will consider la=
ck of comment as acceptance, and make the draft a WG document.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Stan</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:17 AM, Stan Ratliff (sratliff) &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:sratliff@cisco.com">sratliff@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space; ">
Chris/Thomas,&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My apologies for the delay.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Working Group,&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>What say you? Do we have consensus to proceed with this document as a =
WG doc?&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Stan&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>
<div>On Jan 29, 2014, at 11:14 AM, Ulrich Herberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ulr=
ich@herberg.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt;</div>
<div>&nbsp;wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>Joe, Stan,<br>
<br>
</div>
have you received the below email? Can you please respond?<br>
<br>
</div>
Thanks<br>
Ulrich<br>
<div><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Thomas Heide Clausen</b> <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.or=
g</a>&gt;</span><br>
Date: Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:44 PM<br>
Subject: Re: draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02 -&gt; WG<br>
To: Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Joe Macker &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil">joseph.mac=
ker@nrl.navy.mil</a>&gt;, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@cisco=
.com">sratliff@cisco.com</a>&gt;, Ulrich Herberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch@herberg.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt;, Adrian Farrel
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk">adrian@olddog.co.uk</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>Dear WG chairs, WG secretary, Area Director,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First, happy new year. I hope that you were able to spend some time wi=
th your loved ones over the holidays, and that health and happiness may be =
with you in the new year.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I wanted to remind you of the request from Chris (below), sent to you =
a bit more than a month ago. As I've seen no emails from you to regarding t=
his, I permit myself to reiterate the request for WG adoption of draft-dear=
love-manet-olsrv2-multitopolgy-02
 - so that we may advance also this document forward, hopefully rapidly, to=
wards publication as experimental RFC.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you in advance for your consideration.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Respectfully,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thomas</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<div>
<div>On 20 Dec 2013, at 17:07 , Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">Chris.Dearlove@baesy=
stems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-siz=
e:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Joe, Stan<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
We have submitted draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02, which inclu=
des what we knew we were missing from the previous draft.<u></u><u></u></di=
v>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
We would therefore like to ask the WG to accept this. Obviously this close =
to the Christmas/New Year holiday, after those (as immediately after those =
as possible) would be appropriate. (Same timeframe as IETF LC on other draf=
ts I hope).<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
In the meanwhile, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all,<u></u><u></u><=
/div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
Christopher<u></u><u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">--<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Senior Principal Engineer, Communicati=
ons Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%201245%20242194" value=3D"&#43;441245242194" targ=
et=3D"_blank">&#43;44 1245 242194</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax:
<a href=3D"tel:%2B44%201245%20242124" value=3D"&#43;441245242124" target=3D=
"_blank">&#43;44 1245 242124</a><u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesy=
stems.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blan=
k"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove=
@baesystems.com</span></a><span>&nbsp;</span>|<span>&nbsp;</span><a href=3D=
"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underlin=
e" target=3D"_blank">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">BAE Systems (Operations) Limite=
d<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<u></u><u></u></span></div>
<div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif">
<u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></div>
</div>
<p>********************************************************************<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
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_______________________________________________<br>
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Multi-Topology Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2)
        Authors         : Christopher Dearlove
                          Thomas Heide Clausen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-00.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2014-02-10

Abstract:
   This specification describes an extension to the Optimized Link State
   Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to support multiple routing
   topologies, while retaining interoperability with OLSRv2 routers that
   do not implement this extension.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
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From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon Feb 10 12:12:41 2014
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Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 12:12:38 -0800
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Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP)
        Authors         : Stan Ratliff
                          Bo Berry
                          Greg Harrison
                          Shawn Jury
                          Darryl Satterwhite
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05.txt
	Pages           : 50
	Date            : 2014-02-10

Abstract:
   When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over
   wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the
   characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make
   forwarding decisions. In mobile or other environments where these
   characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the
   inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not
   allow the router to make the best decisions. A bidirectional, event-
   driven communication channel between the router and the modem is
   necessary.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From ulrich@herberg.name  Tue Feb 11 17:30:07 2014
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To: manet@ietf.org
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Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt
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--001a1136b37412155504f22b838b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hello,

Thomas and I submitted a new draft today. When standardizing RFC6779 and
the OLSRv2-MIB, we were asked to answer how MANETs are managed. This draft
describes how OLSRv2 networks are typically managed as of today (see
abstract and link below). The draft does not intend in any way to replace
the efforts of draft-nguyen-manet-management, which provides a larger scope
of many different ways that are imaginable for MANET management, but that
we don't have concrete evidence of being in use today. In my opinion, both
documents could be developed in parallel, with likely a shorter time to
publish for the new snapshot draft.

We ask the chairs for a slot to present this draft at the meeting in
London, with the aim of making a consensus call for WG adoption soon after
London.

Best regards
Ulrich

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:20 PM
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt
To: Thomas Clausen <t.clausen@computer.org>, "Thomas H. Clausen" <
T.Clausen@computer.org>, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>



A new version of I-D, draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Ulrich Herberg and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot
Revision:       01
Title:          Snapshot of OLSRv2-Routed MANET Management
Document date:  2014-02-11
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          10
URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot/
Htmlized:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01
Diff:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01

Abstract:
   This document describes how Mobile Ad Hoc Networks (MANETs) are
   typically managed, in terms of pre-deployment management, as well as
   rationale and means of monitoring and management of MANET routers
   running the routing protocol OLSRv2 and its constituent protocol
   NHDP.  Apart from pre-deployment management for setting up IP
   addresses and security related credentials, OLSRv2 only needs routers
   to agree one single parameter (called "C").  Other parameters for
   tweaking network performance may be determined during operation of
   the network, and need not be the same in all routers.  This, using
   MIB modules and related management protocols such as SNMP (or
   possibly other, less "chatty", protocols).  In addition, for
   debugging purposes, monitoring data and performance related counters
   can be sent to the Network Management Station (NMS) via standardized
   management protocols.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--001a1136b37412155504f22b838b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hello,<br><br></div>Thomas and I submitted a new=
 draft today. When standardizing RFC6779 and the OLSRv2-MIB, we were asked =
to answer how MANETs are managed. This draft describes how OLSRv2 networks =
are typically managed as of today (see abstract and link below). The draft =
does not intend in any way to replace the efforts of draft-nguyen-manet-man=
agement, which provides a larger scope of many different ways that are imag=
inable for MANET management, but that we don&#39;t have concrete evidence o=
f being in use today. In my opinion, both documents could be developed in p=
arallel, with likely a shorter time to publish for the new snapshot draft.<=
br>
<br></div><div>We ask the chairs for a slot to present this draft at the me=
eting in London, with the aim of making a consensus call for WG adoption so=
on after London.<br></div><div><br></div>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br><div>
<div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message -----=
-----<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</=
span><br>
Date: Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 5:20 PM<br>Subject: New Version Notification for=
 draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt<br>To: Thomas Clause=
n &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:t.clausen@computer.org">t.clausen@computer.org</a>&=
gt;, &quot;Thomas H. Clausen&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:T.Clausen@computer=
.org">T.Clausen@computer.org</a>&gt;, Ulrich Herberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
ulrich@herberg.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt;<br>
<br><br><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt=
<br>
has been successfully submitted by Ulrich Herberg and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot<br=
>
Revision: =A0 =A0 =A0 01<br>
Title: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Snapshot of OLSRv2-Routed MANET Management<br>
Document date: =A02014-02-11<br>
Group: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Individual Submission<br>
Pages: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A010<br>
URL: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/=
draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01.txt" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-sna=
pshot-01.txt</a><br>

Status: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-c=
lausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot/</a><br>
Htmlized: =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-clausen-m=
anet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01</a><br>
Diff: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddra=
ft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-clausen-manet-olsrv2-management-snapshot-01=
</a><br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=A0 =A0This document describes how Mobile Ad Hoc Networks (MANETs) are<br>
=A0 =A0typically managed, in terms of pre-deployment management, as well as=
<br>
=A0 =A0rationale and means of monitoring and management of MANET routers<br=
>
=A0 =A0running the routing protocol OLSRv2 and its constituent protocol<br>
=A0 =A0NHDP. =A0Apart from pre-deployment management for setting up IP<br>
=A0 =A0addresses and security related credentials, OLSRv2 only needs router=
s<br>
=A0 =A0to agree one single parameter (called &quot;C&quot;). =A0Other param=
eters for<br>
=A0 =A0tweaking network performance may be determined during operation of<b=
r>
=A0 =A0the network, and need not be the same in all routers. =A0This, using=
<br>
=A0 =A0MIB modules and related management protocols such as SNMP (or<br>
=A0 =A0possibly other, less &quot;chatty&quot;, protocols). =A0In addition,=
 for<br>
=A0 =A0debugging purposes, monitoring data and performance related counters=
<br>
=A0 =A0can be sent to the Network Management Station (NMS) via standardized=
<br>
=A0 =A0management protocols.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<br>
<br>
</div><br></div></div></div></div>

--001a1136b37412155504f22b838b--


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Thu Feb 13 09:28:59 2014
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Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.

        Title           : Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) and MANET Neighborhood Discovery Protocol (NHDP) Extension TLVs
        Authors         : Christopher Dearlove
                          Thomas Heide Clausen
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension-02.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2014-02-13

Abstract:
   This specification describes extensions to definitions of TLVs used
   by the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) and
   the MANET Neighborhood Discovery Protocol (NHDP), to increase their
   abilities to accommodate protocol extensions.  This document updates
   OLSRv2 and RFC6130.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension-02


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Fri Feb 14 02:36:26 2014
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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 11:36:17 +0100
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Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter-03.txt
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Dear all,=20
=20
We have uploaded the -03 revision of reactive-jitter draft.=20
=20
In the new revision, we addressed the questions/concerns raised in the =
last IETF meeting ( =
http://tools.ietf.org/wg/manet/minutes?item=3Dminutes-88-manet.html ), =
including:
=20
 	o Clarified that for although RFC 5148 jitter mechanism is =
originally designed to avoid collisions, the reactive-jitter can also =
improve route discovery efficiency. In another words, it can be helpful =
even for the collision-free medium.=20
 =09
 	o "Delay inversion" will happen, no matter what kind of metrics =
is used, or if reduced topology is applied. In fact, even no jitter is =
used, it will still happen.=20
 =09
 	o The probability of "delay inversion" grows higher as network =
size grows.=20
 =09
best

Jiazi, Juan Antonio and Thomas=20

Begin forwarded message:

> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter-03.txt
> Date: 14 Feb 2014 11:27:15 am GMT+1
> To: Thomas Clausen <t.clausen@computer.org>, Juan Antonio Cordero =
<j.a.cordero@gmail.com>, "Juan Antonio Cordero Fuertes" =
<j.a.cordero@gmail.com>, "Thomas H. Clausen" <T.Clausen@computer.org>, =
"Jiazi Yi" <jiazi@jiaziyi.com>, Jiazi Yi <jiazi@jiaziyi.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Jiazi Yi and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter
> Revision:	03
> Title:		Jitter Consideration for Reactive Protocols in =
Mobile Ad Hoc Networks (MANETs)
> Document date:	2014-02-14
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		10
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter-03.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter/
> Htmlized:       =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter-03
> Diff:           =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-yi-manet-reactive-jitter-03
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document provides recommendations for jittering (randomly
>   timing) of routing control message transmission, especially route
>   request dissemination, in reactive protocols of Mobile Ad Hoc
>   Networks, to reduce the probability of collisions, decrease routing
>   overhead, and help finding the optimum paths in the network.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


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Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2014 14:27:57 +0100
From: Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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--------------ms060802090600030005000109
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
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A new version of I-D, draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Henning Rogge and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:		draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric
Revision:	04
Title:		Packet Sequence Number based directional airtime metric for OLSRv=
2
Document date:	2014-02-14
Group:		Individual Submission
Pages:		16
URL:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metri=
c-04.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric/
Htmlized:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04
Diff:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric=
-04

Abstract:
   This document specifies an directional airtime link metric for usage
   in OLSRv2.





Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


--=20
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=C3=BCr
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
Fraunhofer Stra=C3=9Fe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de




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From nobody Mon Feb 17 03:39:03 2014
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Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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--Apple-Mail=_F96278AB-D4B6-4C63-958C-716600BA537E
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	charset=iso-8859-1

Dear all,

We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's =
interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the =
RFC5444 packet format.

We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.

Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.

Thank you,

Axel


D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :

> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:	00
> Title:		On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:	2014-02-14
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_F96278AB-D4B6-4C63-958C-716600BA537E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
all,<div><br></div><div>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we =
wish to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet format.</div><div><br></div><div>We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>. Given the =
characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.</div><div><br></div><div>Any feedback or comment on those =
documents would be very appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel<br><div><br></div><div><div><div><br><d=
iv>D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, =
0, 0, 1.0);"><b>De: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><a=
 =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Objet: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>New Version =
Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</b><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, =
0, 0, 1.0);"><b>Date: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 =
UTC+1<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica'; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);"><b>=C0: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Yunj=
ung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Will=
iam-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "Axel Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Sun=
g-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, "Professor =
Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div>=
<br><div><br>A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has =
been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to =
the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br>Title:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>On-Demand =
Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><b=
r>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a><br><br><br>Abstract:<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a =
multicast<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks =
with mobile hosts.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a =
conventional tree-based,<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a =
forwarding group concept (only a subset<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes =
forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></body><=
/html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F96278AB-D4B6-4C63-958C-716600BA537E--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 03:42:56 2014
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:42:45 +0100
To: Joe Macker <joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil>, "Stan Ratliff (sratliff)" <sratliff@cisco.com>, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>
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Subject: [manet] Slot request
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Dear WG chairs and secretary,

If possible, I would like to request a slot for the next meeting to =
present the ODMRP and ODMRP-ASYM drafts recently submitted here: =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00 and =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00.

Thank you,

Best,

Axel=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear WG chairs and secretary,<div><br></div><div>If possible, I would like to request a slot for the next meeting to present the ODMRP and ODMRP-ASYM drafts recently submitted here:&nbsp;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div></body></html>
--Apple-Mail=_14608F33-4F99-4162-BA62-DC7DB19F65E9--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 04:23:45 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:23:33 +0100
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Axel, Mario, All,

There seems to be a slight datatracker issue here. When clicking:

	http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt

One gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when clicking:

	http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00

One gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the =
"problem" may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 =
versions) with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email =
to the lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that problem?

Best,

Thomas


On 17 Feb 2014, at 12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>=20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>=20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>=20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
>=20
> Thank you,
>=20
> Axel
>=20
>=20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Name:		draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>> Revision:	00
>> Title:		On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
>> Document date:	2014-02-14
>> Group:		Individual Submission
>> Pages:		29
>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>=20
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_93EF5173-C355-4F67-AE6C-F11EB51C51E2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Axel, =
Mario, All,<div><br></div><div>There seems to be a slight datatracker =
issue here. When clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">http://www.=
ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when =
clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the "problem" =
may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 versions) =
with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email to the =
lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that =
problem?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at =
12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
all,<div><br></div><div>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we =
wish to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet format.</div><div><br></div><div>We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>. Given the =
characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.</div><div><br></div><div>Any feedback or comment on those =
documents would be very appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel<br><div><br></div><div><div><br><div>D=E9=
but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>De: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica;"><b>Objet: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</b><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>=C0: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Yunj=
ung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Will=
iam-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "Axel Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Sun=
g-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, "Professor =
Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div>=
<br><div><br>A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has =
been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to =
the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br>Title:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>On-Demand =
Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><b=
r>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a><br><br><br>Abstract:<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a =
multicast<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks =
with mobile hosts.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a =
conventional tree-based,<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a =
forwarding group concept (only a subset<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes =
forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>________=
_______________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>
In-Reply-To: <843572B1-69E6-4000-BBD7-5F727797B892@thomasclausen.org>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:26:25 +0100
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References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <843572B1-69E6-4000-BBD7-5F727797B892@thomasclausen.org>
To: thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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--Apple-Mail=_C7ED4174-75F0-4F34-B860-E7A4364B6065
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Hi Thomas,

Thank you, I hadn't seen that! I'll drop them an email to see what they =
can do. In the meantime, I think the datatracker =
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/) and txt/pdf =
links work correctly.

Best,

Axel

Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:23, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org> =
a =E9crit :

> Axel, Mario, All,
>=20
> There seems to be a slight datatracker issue here. When clicking:
>=20
> 	http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>=20
> One gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when clicking:
>=20
> 	http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
> One gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the =
"problem" may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 =
versions) with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email =
to the lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that problem?
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>=20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>>=20
>> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>>=20
>> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
>>=20
>> Thank you,
>>=20
>> Axel
>>=20
>>=20
>> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>>=20
>>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, =
"William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>=20
>>> Name:		draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>>> Revision:	00
>>> Title:		On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
>>> Document date:	2014-02-14
>>> Group:		Individual Submission
>>> Pages:		29
>>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>>> Htmlized:       =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a =
subset
>>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_C7ED4174-75F0-4F34-B860-E7A4364B6065
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
Thomas,<div><br></div><div>Thank you, I hadn't seen that! I'll drop them =
an email to see what they can do. In the meantime, I think the =
datatracker (<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a>) and =
txt/pdf&nbsp;links work =
correctly.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</d=
iv><div><br><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:23, Thomas Clausen =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; =
a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Axel, =
Mario, All,<div><br></div><div>There seems to be a slight datatracker =
issue here. When clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">http://www.=
ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when =
clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the "problem" =
may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 versions) =
with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email to the =
lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that =
problem?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at =
12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
all,<div><br></div><div>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we =
wish to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet format.</div><div><br></div><div>We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>. Given the =
characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.</div><div><br></div><div>Any feedback or comment on those =
documents would be very appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel<br><div><br></div><div><div><br><div>D=E9=
but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>De: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica;"><b>Objet: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</b><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>=C0: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Yunj=
ung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Will=
iam-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "Axel Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Sun=
g-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, "Professor =
Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div>=
<br><div><br>A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has =
been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to =
the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br>Title:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>On-Demand =
Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><b=
r>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a><br><br><br>Abstract:<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a =
multicast<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks =
with mobile hosts.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a =
conventional tree-based,<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a =
forwarding group concept (only a subset<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes =
forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>________=
_______________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_C7ED4174-75F0-4F34-B860-E7A4364B6065--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 04:27:44 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:27:33 +0100
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References: <F6CC7CDD-0FA3-4745-A4BF-09CB3076A9B3@axelcdv.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Slot request
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Dear Axel, Mario, WG Chairs, WG Secretary,
Dear all,

As indicated in a previous mail, there are potential problems with the =
name of draft-gerla-manet-odmrp, which seems to confuse the datatracker.

That being said, I saw the notifications for  =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt  and draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00 as =
the datatracker sent them out last Friday, and have quickly read through =
them over the weekend - what else does one spend weekends on in the =
month prior to an IETF meeting.=20

A detailed review of the I-Ds will follow, of course, but I wanted to =
express "interest" from at least me, for these documents to be revived =
and discussed in the WG.=20

They appear well written, an easy read, uses RFC5444 correctly, and at =
least the applicability statements indicate that they hold promise. I =
need to, of course, work through the details of the I-D, but I'd like to =
encourage that they be discussed in the WG, on the list and - of course =
- get a good-sized slot in the London meeting.

Best,

Thomas

On 17 Feb 2014, at 12:42, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:

> Dear WG chairs and secretary,
>=20
> If possible, I would like to request a slot for the next meeting to =
present the ODMRP and ODMRP-ASYM drafts recently submitted here: =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00 and =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00.
>=20
> Thank you,
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Axel
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_8461C313-83EC-469D-9CCF-34432035DD55
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
Axel, Mario, WG Chairs, WG Secretary,<div>Dear =
all,</div><div><br></div><div>As indicated in a previous mail, there are =
potential problems with the name of draft-gerla-manet-odmrp, which seems =
to confuse the datatracker.</div><div><br></div><div><div>That being =
said, I saw the notifications for &nbsp;draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt =
&nbsp;and draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00 as the datatracker sent them =
out last Friday, and have quickly read through them over the weekend - =
what else does one spend weekends on in the month prior to an IETF =
meeting.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>A detailed review of the I-Ds =
will follow, of course, but I wanted to express "interest" from at least =
me, for these documents to be revived and discussed in the =
WG.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>They appear well written, an easy =
read, uses RFC5444 correctly, and at least the applicability statements =
indicate that they hold promise. I need to, of course, work through the =
details of the I-D, but I'd like to encourage that they be discussed in =
the WG, on the list and - of course - get a good-sized slot in the =
London =
meeting.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Tho=
mas</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 12:42, Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
WG chairs and secretary,<div><br></div><div>If possible, I would like to =
request a slot for the next meeting to present the ODMRP and ODMRP-ASYM =
drafts recently submitted here:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div></d=
iv>_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8461C313-83EC-469D-9CCF-34432035DD55--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 04:32:21 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:32:10 +0100
Message-Id: <3992C222-4548-4E35-B561-FB4A98FF728F@thomasclausen.org>
References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <843572B1-69E6-4000-BBD7-5F727797B892@thomasclausen.org> <1C0A5608-C1FE-4054-B58D-542D8EE34A24@axelcdv.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Dear Axel,

On 17 Feb 2014, at 13:26, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:

> Hi Thomas,
>=20
> Thank you, I hadn't seen that! I'll drop them an email to see what =
they can do. In the meantime, I think the datatracker =
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/) and txt/pdf =
links work correctly.
>=20

They absolutely do work - yet, some of us (at least, I) live and breathe =
by the datatracker, and use tools that link up against it (rfcdiff is =
one such tool, but not the only one), so it'd be great if the good folks =
at the secretariat could work their magic on this ;)

Cheers,

Thomas


> Best,
>=20
> Axel
>=20
> Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:23, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> a =E9crit :
>=20
>> Axel, Mario, All,
>>=20
>> There seems to be a slight datatracker issue here. When clicking:
>>=20
>> 	http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>=20
>> One gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when clicking:
>>=20
>> 	http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>=20
>> One gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the =
"problem" may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 =
versions) with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email =
to the lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that problem?
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Dear all,
>>>=20
>>> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>>>=20
>>> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension =
of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>>>=20
>>> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.
>>>=20
>>> Thank you,
>>>=20
>>> Axel
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>>>=20
>>>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>>>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, =
"William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and =
posted to the
>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>=20
>>>> Name:		draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>>>> Revision:	00
>>>> Title:		On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
>>>> Document date:	2014-02-14
>>>> Group:		Individual Submission
>>>> Pages:		29
>>>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>>>> Htmlized:       =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a =
subset
>>>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>>>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_CC47D909-3F97-4F32-9E41-6F827B89693E
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
Axel,<div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 13:26, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re=
 &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
Thomas,<div><br></div><div>Thank you, I hadn't seen that! I'll drop them =
an email to see what they can do. In the meantime, I think the =
datatracker (<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a>) and =
txt/pdf&nbsp;links work =
correctly.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>They =
absolutely do work - yet, some of us (at least, I) live and breathe by =
the datatracker, and use tools that link up against it (rfcdiff is one =
such tool, but not the only one), so it'd be great if the good folks at =
the secretariat could work their magic on this =
;)</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><=
div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div><div><br=
><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:23, Thomas Clausen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; =
a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Axel, =
Mario, All,<div><br></div><div>There seems to be a slight datatracker =
issue here. When clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">http://www.=
ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when =
clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the "problem" =
may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 versions) =
with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email to the =
lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that =
problem?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at =
12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
all,<div><br></div><div>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we =
wish to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet format.</div><div><br></div><div>We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>. Given the =
characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.</div><div><br></div><div>Any feedback or comment on those =
documents would be very appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel<br><div><br></div><div><div><br><div>D=E9=
but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>De: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica;"><b>Objet: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</b><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>=C0: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Yunj=
ung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Will=
iam-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "Axel Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Sun=
g-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, "Professor =
Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div>=
<br><div><br>A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has =
been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to =
the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br>Title:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>On-Demand =
Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><b=
r>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a><br><br><br>Abstract:<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a =
multicast<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks =
with mobile hosts.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a =
conventional tree-based,<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a =
forwarding group concept (only a subset<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes =
forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>________=
_______________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<=
br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:38:23 +0100
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References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <843572B1-69E6-4000-BBD7-5F727797B892@thomasclausen.org> <1C0A5608-C1FE-4054-B58D-542D8EE34A24@axelcdv.com> <3992C222-4548-4E35-B561-FB4A98FF728F@thomasclausen.org>
To: thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Dear Thomas,

Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:32, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org> =
a =E9crit :

> Dear Axel,
>=20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 13:26, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Thomas,
>>=20
>> Thank you, I hadn't seen that! I'll drop them an email to see what =
they can do. In the meantime, I think the datatracker =
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/) and txt/pdf =
links work correctly.
>>=20
>=20
> They absolutely do work - yet, some of us (at least, I) live and =
breathe by the datatracker, and use tools that link up against it =
(rfcdiff is one such tool, but not the only one), so it'd be great if =
the good folks at the secretariat could work their magic on this ;)

Of course, and thank you again for pointing that out; I just sent them =
an email regarding the issue, hopefully they should be able to resolve =
this.

Best,

Axel

>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Axel
>>=20
>> Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:23, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> a =E9crit :
>>=20
>>> Axel, Mario, All,
>>>=20
>>> There seems to be a slight datatracker issue here. When clicking:
>>>=20
>>> 	http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>=20
>>> One gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when clicking:
>>>=20
>>> 	http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>>=20
>>> One gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the =
"problem" may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 =
versions) with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email =
to the lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that problem?
>>>=20
>>> Best,
>>>=20
>>> Thomas
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>=20
>>>> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>>>>=20
>>>> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension =
of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>>>>=20
>>>> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>=20
>>>> Axel
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>>>>=20
>>>>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>>>>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, =
"William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and =
posted to the
>>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Name:		draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>>>>> Revision:	00
>>>>> Title:		On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
>>>>> Document date:	2014-02-14
>>>>> Group:		Individual Submission
>>>>> Pages:		29
>>>>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>>>>> Htmlized:       =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>>>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>>>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>>>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a =
subset
>>>>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  =
It
>>>>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>>>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>>>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>>>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_755AB7B6-B161-4C81-9875-EA758B41DADF
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
Thomas,<div><br><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:32, Thomas Clausen =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; =
a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
Axel,<div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 13:26, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re=
 &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
Thomas,<div><br></div><div>Thank you, I hadn't seen that! I'll drop them =
an email to see what they can do. In the meantime, I think the =
datatracker (<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a>) and =
txt/pdf&nbsp;links work =
correctly.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>They =
absolutely do work - yet, some of us (at least, I) live and breathe by =
the datatracker, and use tools that link up against it (rfcdiff is one =
such tool, but not the only one), so it'd be great if the good folks at =
the secretariat could work their magic on this =
;)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course, and =
thank you again for pointing that out; I just sent them an email =
regarding the issue, hopefully they should be able to resolve =
this.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div><b=
r><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><=
div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div><div><br=
><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 13:23, Thomas Clausen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; =
a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Axel, =
Mario, All,<div><br></div><div>There seems to be a slight datatracker =
issue here. When clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">http://www.=
ietf.org/id/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 2014-draft, whereas when =
clicking:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a></div><div><br></div><div>On=
e gets to the 1998-draft, of the same name. I believe that the "problem" =
may be that there are two I-Ds submitted (the 2014 and 1998 versions) =
with the same name and version number (-00). Perhaps an email to the =
lovely folks at the secretariat would help fix that =
problem?</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at =
12:37, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
all,<div><br></div><div>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we =
wish to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet format.</div><div><br></div><div>We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>. Given the =
characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.</div><div><br></div><div>Any feedback or comment on those =
documents would be very appreciated.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel<br><div><br></div><div><div><br><div>D=E9=
but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>De: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br><=
/span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica;"><b>Objet: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';"><b>New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</b><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;"><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1<br></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;"><b>=C0: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica';">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Yunj=
ung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Will=
iam-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "Axel Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Sun=
g-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, "Professor =
Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div>=
<br><div><br>A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has =
been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to =
the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Revision:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>00<br>Title:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>On-Demand =
Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><b=
r>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>Htmlized: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a><br><br><br>Abstract:<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a =
multicast<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks =
with mobile hosts.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a =
conventional tree-based,<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a =
forwarding group concept (only a subset<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes =
forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br> &nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>________=
_______________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<=
br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockqu=
ote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_755AB7B6-B161-4C81-9875-EA758B41DADF--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 04:45:25 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 13:45:14 +0100
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References: <20140214132654.5643.8999.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52FE19DD.1080706@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
To: Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>, manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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Thank you for that, Henning....I worried if this important work was =
withering since the previous I-D had expired - I am glad that it hadn't, =
and that you request a slot to present in London. In case the WG chairs =
need signs of support in order to grant that slot, then here's a sign =
from me that it's important.

I've quickly read through the I-D over the weekend, and while a detailed =
review will follow (brace yourself ;) - no seriously, I found just a few =
nits)  I was wondering about one big-picture item: I know that you have =
quite some operational experience with OLSR networks, and that in those =
you are not using hop-count metrics ;) Is this the precise metric that =
you are using? Or, to put it in another way, is there any operational =
experience with this metric? Appendix A kinda-sorta leads me to believe =
that this I-D documents a slight deviation from what you've actually =
been using in your deployments, but that may be an incorrect =
interpretation.

Another big-picture question that I have is the status of this document, =
I am not sure if "Informational" is quite right; it might be =
"Experimental", also, or something else? What makes me wonder about this =
is that it kinda-sorta imposes behavior (thou shalt have a packet =
sequence number....) on an implementation that reaches beyond just =
"internal processing". I note that this is not a problem with this I-D =
as such, this is just an artefact of IETF processes....

Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the =
authors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not =
really an appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document =
not a working group document yet?

Best,

Thomas

On 14 Feb 2014, at 14:27, Henning Rogge =
<henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> A new version of I-D, draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Henning Rogge and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric
> Revision:	04
> Title:		Packet Sequence Number based directional airtime =
metric for OLSRv2
> Document date:	2014-02-14
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		16
> URL:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric=
-04.txt
> Status:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric/
> Htmlized:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04
> Diff:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-=
04
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document specifies an directional airtime link metric for usage
>   in OLSRv2.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
> Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From nobody Mon Feb 17 05:22:52 2014
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To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>, "manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org" <manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org>, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
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I need to read the latest draft. One comment I'll make to put it on the rec=
ord is that multitopology recommends increasing the pool of administrativel=
y defined metric types from 1 to something larger (I'd like to see at least=
 8) and it would be silly for those to be other than a continuous block (fr=
om 0). So when we come to make a request for specific metric types, we need=
 to ensure that isn't broken. =


-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194=A0|  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Clausen
Sent: 17 February 2014 12:45
To: Henning Rogge; manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org; Ulrich Herberg
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsr=
v2-ett-metric-04.txt

----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi=
nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro=
m the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme=
nts or reply.
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n reporting suspicious email messages.
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Thank you for that, Henning....I worried if this important work was witheri=
ng since the previous I-D had expired - I am glad that it hadn't, and that =
you request a slot to present in London. In case the WG chairs need signs o=
f support in order to grant that slot, then here's a sign from me that it's=
 important.

I've quickly read through the I-D over the weekend, and while a detailed re=
view will follow (brace yourself ;) - no seriously, I found just a few nits=
)  I was wondering about one big-picture item: I know that you have quite s=
ome operational experience with OLSR networks, and that in those you are no=
t using hop-count metrics ;) Is this the precise metric that you are using?=
 Or, to put it in another way, is there any operational experience with thi=
s metric? Appendix A kinda-sorta leads me to believe that this I-D document=
s a slight deviation from what you've actually been using in your deploymen=
ts, but that may be an incorrect interpretation.

Another big-picture question that I have is the status of this document, I =
am not sure if "Informational" is quite right; it might be "Experimental", =
also, or something else? What makes me wonder about this is that it kinda-s=
orta imposes behavior (thou shalt have a packet sequence number....) on an =
implementation that reaches beyond just "internal processing". I note that =
this is not a problem with this I-D as such, this is just an artefact of IE=
TF processes....

Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the auth=
ors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not really an =
appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document not a working g=
roup document yet?

Best,

Thomas

On 14 Feb 2014, at 14:27, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:

> A new version of I-D, draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Henning Rogge and posted to the =

> IETF repository.
> =

> Name:		draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric
> Revision:	04
> Title:		Packet Sequence Number based directional airtime metric for OLSRv2
> Document date:	2014-02-14
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		16
> URL:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-me
> tric-04.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metri
> c/
> Htmlized:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04
> Diff:
> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metri
> c-04
> =

> Abstract:
>   This document specifies an directional airtime link metric for usage
>   in OLSRv2.
> =

> =

> =

> =

> =

> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =

> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.iet=
f.org.
> =

> The IETF Secretariat
> =

> =

> --
> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr =

> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE =

> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, =

> Germany
> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
> =

> =

> =

> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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From nobody Mon Feb 17 05:29:10 2014
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with expe=
rience of both? Published results?

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de Verd=
i=E8re
Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
To: <manet@ietf.org> List
Cc: soon Oh; gerla
Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-=
00.txt


*** WARNING ***
This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter=
nal partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme=
nts or reply.
For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you=
 receive, click here<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/=
spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process<http://intr=
anet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20W=
ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Dear all,

We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's in=
terest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RFC5444 p=
acket format.

We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP=
 that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the link: http:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given the characteri=
stics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a useful alternati=
ve to blacklisting such links.

Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.

Thank you,

Axel


D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :


De: internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
=C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-e=
mail-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ie=
tfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "Axel Coli V=
erdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>, "Sung-Ju Lee" <unknow=
n-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.a=
msl.com>>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, "Prof=
essor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, Axel Coli=
n de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>


A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
Revision:         00
Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad H=
oc Networks
Document date:          2014-02-14
Group:             Individual Submission
Pages:              29
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp=
-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00


Abstract:
  The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
  routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
  ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
  multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
  of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
  applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and maintain
  multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless
  networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
  changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org<http://=
tools.ietf.org>.

The IETF Secretariat

********************************************************************
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recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The obvious question is c=
omparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published=
 results?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2014 11:38<br>
<b>To:</b> &lt;manet@ietf.org&gt; List<br>
<b>Cc:</b> soon Oh; gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet=
-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritt=
en to use the RFC5444 packet format.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We also submitted a new experimental draft specifyin=
g an extension of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links.=
 Here's the link:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-ma=
net-odmrp-asym-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-=
00</a>.
 Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can =
be a useful alternative to blacklisting such links.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any feedback or comment on those documents would be =
very appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Axel<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><=
/span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-man=
et-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Date: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC&#43;1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C0: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">&quot;Yunjung Yi&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@iet=
fa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, &quot;William=
 Su&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com">un=
known-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Axel Coli Verdiere&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com">axe=
l@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Sung-Ju Lee&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknow=
n-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.co=
m</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu">gerla@cs.uc=
la.edu</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Professor Mario Gerla&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu"=
>gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ax=
el@axelcdv.com">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the=
<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>
Revision:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>00<br>
Title:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>On-Demand Multi=
cast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>
Document date:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>2014-02-14<br>
Group:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Individual Submission<br>
Pages:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>29<br>
URL: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">=
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><br>
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/">https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla=
-manet-odmrp-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts=
.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,<b=
r>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a su=
bset<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &=
nbsp;It<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and ma=
intain<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad h=
oc wireless<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>********************************************************************<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</p></b=
ody>
</html>

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From nobody Mon Feb 17 05:38:55 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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To: Christopher Dearlove <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Chris,

On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with =
experience of both? Published results?

That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.

I agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.

There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those =
references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I =
could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the =
year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)

Cheers,

Thomas

> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re
> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Dear all,
> =20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
> =20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
> =20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
> =20
> Thank you,
> =20
> Axel
> =20
> =20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>=20
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
> =20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_3D371681-81AF-49C8-93E8-09CF4F6AA9F3
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;">Chris,<div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, =
Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is =
there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That was also =
one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely comparable =
in that the former does group management whereas the latter does =
"optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.</div><div><br></div><div>I agree that published results on this =
would be interesting - caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and =
I'll come up with a scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.</div><div><br></div><div>There are a few informative references =
in ODMRP - to the Authors, those references are actually incomplete, I =
couldn't easily figure out where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for =
reading more (I also note that the year for that reference is missing, =
is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Thom=
as</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: =
underline;">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered =
Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales =
No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; =
gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;"><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">*** =
WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear =
all,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We =
submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's =
interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the =
RFC5444 packet format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>=
. Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it =
can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Thank =
you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Axel<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
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0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">D=E9but=
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0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">De:<span =
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style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: =
underline;">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 =
UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">=C0:<span =
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style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William =
Su" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju =
Lee" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario =
Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, "Professor Mario =
Gerla" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin de =
Verdiere &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
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style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>draft-gerla-manet-odmr=
p<br>Revision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>On-Demand Multicast =
Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<s=
pan =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00=
.txt</a><br>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><=
br>Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a><br><=
br><br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol =
(ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad =
hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, =
rather than a conventional tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme =
and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of =
nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). =
&nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically =
build routes and maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. =
&nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks =
with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, =
topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is =
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From nobody Mon Feb 17 07:21:41 2014
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References: <20140214132654.5643.8999.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <52FE19DD.1080706@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <E6003D9E-5FCF-45E9-AA74-349B1FD5848C@thomasclausen.org>
From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:21:10 +0100
Message-ID: <CAGnRvurNxTZGmsQKGWJSfxFe_4ogtv4K6Kn5hxT2FQQ_L0iMEA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Thomas Clausen
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> Thank you for that, Henning....I worried if this important work was withe=
ring since the previous I-D had expired - I am glad that it hadn't, and tha=
t you request a slot to present in London. In case the WG chairs need signs=
 of support in order to grant that slot, then here's a sign from me that it=
's important.

I am looking forward to London.

> I've quickly read through the I-D over the weekend, and while a detailed =
review will follow (brace yourself ;) - no seriously, I found just a few ni=
ts)

Looking forward to more feedback.

> I was wondering about one big-picture item: I know that you have quite so=
me operational experience with OLSR networks, and that in those you are not=
 using hop-count metrics ;) Is this the precise metric that you are using?

No.

OLSR.org RFC 3626 extension uses ETX and cannot change it without
breaking the compatibility to old nodes.

> Or, to put it in another way, is there any operational experience with th=
is metric?

I have implemented it for my OLSRv2 code and we have used it in our
testbed, but unfortunately thats a quite limited test.

The implementation uses slightly different limits for ETX and
upper/lower datarate, but I have yet to hear a WG opinion what these
values should be.

> Appendix A kinda-sorta leads me to believe that this I-D documents a slig=
ht deviation from what you've actually been using in your deployments, but =
that may be an incorrect interpretation.

Unfortunately I am yet to hear about a community mesh network that
tried to deploy OLSRv2.

> Another big-picture question that I have is the status of this document, =
I am not sure if "Informational" is quite right; it might be "Experimental"=
, also, or something else? What makes me wonder about this is that it kinda=
-sorta imposes behavior (thou shalt have a packet sequence number....) on a=
n implementation that reaches beyond just "internal processing". I note tha=
t this is not a problem with this I-D as such, this is just an artefact of =
IETF processes....

As I said during the IETF in Berlin I am not sure what "status" this
document should be... most likely "experimental".

"informal" was the easiest solution for the private draft until the WG
decides what to do with this document.

> Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the au=
thors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not really a=
n appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document not a working=
 group document yet?

I think we can/should talk about this in London.

Henning Rogge


From nobody Mon Feb 17 07:23:40 2014
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:22:57 +0100
Message-ID: <CAGnRvupGeVqBABr0GtcWeQgkBDe9xFwHDeZ1gozv=eqsUSyemw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
> I need to read the latest draft. One comment I'll make to put it on the r=
ecord is that multitopology recommends increasing the pool of administrativ=
ely defined metric types from 1 to something larger (I'd like to see at lea=
st 8) and it would be silly for those to be other than a continuous block (=
from 0). So when we come to make a request for specific metric types, we ne=
ed to ensure that isn't broken.

This metric does not have any kind of requirements for the other side
of a link, so it doesn't really need any fixed metric extension
codepoint.

I can totally see this metrics being used in one of the metric code
points used  for multi-topology routing.

Most times you will just run it as metric "0" in a non-MT mesh.

Henning Rogge


From nobody Mon Feb 17 07:51:01 2014
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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At experimental, sure (or use private/experimental space). If it gets beyon=
d experimental, then an allocation (with caveats noted) would probably be c=
alled for.

-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194=A0|  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
Sent: 17 February 2014 15:23
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; Thomas Clausen
Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsr=
v2-ett-metric-04.txt

----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi=
nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro=
m the internet.
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nts or reply.
Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions o=
n reporting suspicious email messages.
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On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <Chris.Dearlove=
@baesystems.com> wrote:
> I need to read the latest draft. One comment I'll make to put it on the r=
ecord is that multitopology recommends increasing the pool of administrativ=
ely defined metric types from 1 to something larger (I'd like to see at lea=
st 8) and it would be silly for those to be other than a continuous block (=
from 0). So when we come to make a request for specific metric types, we ne=
ed to ensure that isn't broken.

This metric does not have any kind of requirements for the other side of a =
link, so it doesn't really need any fixed metric extension codepoint.

I can totally see this metrics being used in one of the metric code points =
used  for multi-topology routing.

Most times you will just run it as metric "0" in a non-MT mesh.

Henning Rogge

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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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What's needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it becomes "not=
 worth being clever, let's just [optimised] flood". And of whether [optimis=
ed] flooding is more (or less) reliable.

Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and very sma=
ll number in multicast group.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]
Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario Gerla
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt


*** WARNING ***
This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter=
nal partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme=
nts or reply.
For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you=
 receive, click here<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/=
spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process<http://intr=
anet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20W=
ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Chris,

On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:


The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with expe=
rience of both? Published results?

That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter does=
 "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there would =
be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load than SMF =
(say, a big network and a small group with group members being topologicall=
y far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.

I agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating wit=
h the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario where it =
won't work as well as XXXX", of course.

There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those ref=
erences are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I could=
 dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the year for th=
at reference is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)

Cheers,

Thomas


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com<http://www.baesystems.com/>

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de Verd=
i=E8re
Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
To: <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>> List
Cc: soon Oh; gerla
Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-=
00.txt


*** WARNING ***
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nts or reply.
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 receive, click here<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/=
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anet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20W=
ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Dear all,

We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's in=
terest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RFC5444 p=
acket format.

We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP=
 that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the link: http:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given the characteri=
stics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a useful alternati=
ve to blacklisting such links.

Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.

Thank you,

Axel


D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :



De: internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
=C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-e=
mail-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ie=
tfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "Axel Coli V=
erdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>, "Sung-Ju Lee" <unknow=
n-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.a=
msl.com>>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, "Prof=
essor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, Axel Coli=
n de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>


A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
Revision:         00
Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad H=
oc Networks
Document date:          2014-02-14
Group:             Individual Submission
Pages:              29
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp=
-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00


Abstract:
  The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
  routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
  ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
  multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
  of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
  applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and maintain
  multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless
  networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
  changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org<http://=
tools.ietf.org/>.

The IETF Secretariat


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What&#8217;s needed is so=
me sort of quantification of if and when it becomes &#8220;not worth being =
clever, let&#8217;s just [optimised] flood&#8221;. And of whether [optimise=
d] flooding
 is more (or less) reliable.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Obvious limiting cases ar=
e everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast gr=
oup.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2014 13:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;manet@ietf.org&gt; List; soon Oh; =
Mario Gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-m=
anet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris,<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The obvious question is c=
omparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published=
 results?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That was also one of my questions, alas, I think tha=
t they're not entirely comparable in that the former does group management =
whereas the latter does &quot;optimized flooding&quot;. Thus, I'd suspect (=
at least, hope) that there would be scenarios
 where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load than SMF (say, a big =
network and a small group with group members being topologically far apart)=
 and possibly vice-versa also.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that published results on this would be inte=
resting - caveating with the usual &quot;show me a protocol, and I'll come =
up with a scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX&quot;, of course.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to=
 the Authors, those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily f=
igure out where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also no=
te that the year for that reference
 is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Christopher Dearlove</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>|<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.bae=
systems.com</span></a><br>
<br>
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">manet
 [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">ma=
ilto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February =
2014 11:38<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.org</span><=
/a>&gt; List<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; gerla=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] F=
wd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i><=
/strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&=
nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">that
 you can look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span class=
=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&nbsp;</span></i></s=
pan><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.=
com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span class=3D"=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems=
.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20=
Emails.pdf"><span style=3D"color:purple">this
 process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritt=
en to use the RFC5444 packet format.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We also submitted a new experimental draft specifyin=
g an extension of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links.=
 Here's the link:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-ma=
net-odmrp-asym-00"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>.
 Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can =
be a useful alternative to blacklisting such links.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any feedback or comment on those documents would be =
very appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Axel<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-man=
et-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Date:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC&#43;1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C0:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;">&quot;Yunjung Yi&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yun=
jung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-Yunjung-=
Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;William Su&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietf=
a.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.ams=
l.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Axel Coli Verdiere&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
axel@axelcdv.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&=
gt;,
 &quot;Sung-Ju Lee&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ie=
tfa.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.=
amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.ed=
u"><span style=3D"color:purple">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;Professor Mario Gerla&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the=
<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>
Revision:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<b=
r>
Title:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"a=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (OD=
MRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>
Document date:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>2014-02-14<br>
Group:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>Individual Submission<br>
Pages:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>
URL: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerl=
a-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></a><br>
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><b=
r>
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts=
.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,<b=
r>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a su=
bset<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &=
nbsp;It<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and ma=
intain<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad h=
oc wireless<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
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until the htmlized version and diff are available at<span class=3D"apple-co=
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<br>
The IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p>
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From nobody Mon Feb 17 08:00:43 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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To: Christopher Dearlove <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.

Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and =
"maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just =
flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.

[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going all =
the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance of =
OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]

> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.

Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D

Thomas

> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with =
experience of both? Published results?
> =20
> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
> =20
> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
> =20
> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
> =20
> Cheers,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re
> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Dear all,
> =20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
> =20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
> =20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
> =20
> Thank you,
> =20
> Axel
> =20
> =20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>=20
>=20
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
> =20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_45E94308-3F90-4B61-80B6-C6FDFAEA9E6B
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if =
and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] =
flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) =
reliable.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Absolutely. To =
quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "maintaining =
the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flooding. =
this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.</div><div><br></div><div>[While we're at the applicability =
statement, but of course not going all the way of a full review, how =
would ODMRP interact with an instance of OLSRv2 running on the same =
router? As in SMF, I imagine that some benefits could be drawn from the =
topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if SMF and ODMRP =
are, both, running on the same device, are we expecting synergy or =
conflict?]</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Obvious limiting cases =
are everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in =
multicast group.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes, everything =
"less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting cases =
:D</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: =
underline;">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered =
Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales =
No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen [<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; soon =
Oh; Mario Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;"><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">*** =
WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On 17 =
Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is =
there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">There =
are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those =
references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I =
could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the =
year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems =
(Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, =
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; =
List<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114);">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span>=
</a>. Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe =
it can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Thank =
you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">D=E9but=
 du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 =
UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">=C0:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel =
Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario =
Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span =
style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.tx=
t</span></a><br>Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span><=
/a><br>Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><=
br><br><br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed =
for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a =
mesh-based, rather than a conventional =
tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group =
concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast =
packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand =
procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
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The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF or ODM=
RP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just use the =
other all the time.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]
Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt


*** WARNING ***
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 receive, click here<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/=
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On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:


What's needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it becomes "not=
 worth being clever, let's just [optimised] flood". And of whether [optimis=
ed] flooding is more (or less) reliable.

Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "ma=
intaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flood=
ing. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability statement.

[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going all th=
e way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance of OLSRv2=
 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some benefits could =
be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if S=
MF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, are we expecting synerg=
y or conflict?]


Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and very sma=
ll number in multicast group.

Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesti=
ng cases :D

Thomas


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com<http://www.baesystems.com/>

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]
Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>> List;=
 soon Oh; Mario Gerla
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt


*** WARNING ***
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nal partner or the internet.
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 receive, click here<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/=
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anet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20W=
ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Chris,

On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:



The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with expe=
rience of both? Published results?

That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter does=
 "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there would =
be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load than SMF =
(say, a big network and a small group with group members being topologicall=
y far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.

I agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating wit=
h the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario where it =
won't work as well as XXXX", of course.

There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those ref=
erences are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I could=
 dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the year for th=
at reference is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)

Cheers,

Thomas


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com<http://www.baesystems.com/>

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de Verd=
i=E8re
Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
To: <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>> List
Cc: soon Oh; gerla
Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-=
00.txt


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ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Dear all,

We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's in=
terest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RFC5444 p=
acket format.

We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP=
 that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the link: http:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given the characteri=
stics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a useful alternati=
ve to blacklisting such links.

Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.

Thank you,

Axel


D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :




De: internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
=C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-e=
mail-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ie=
tfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "Axel Coli V=
erdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>, "Sung-Ju Lee" <unknow=
n-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.a=
msl.com>>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, "Prof=
essor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, Axel Coli=
n de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>


A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
Revision:         00
Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad H=
oc Networks
Document date:          2014-02-14
Group:             Individual Submission
Pages:              29
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp=
-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00


Abstract:
  The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
  routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
  ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
  multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
  of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
  applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and maintain
  multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless
  networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
  changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org<http://=
tools.ietf.org/>.

The IETF Secretariat


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The limiting cases have t=
heir uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extre=
me (consistently), you might as well just use the other
 all the time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2014 16:00<br>
<b>To:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> soon Oh; &lt;manet@ietf.org&gt; List; Mario Gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-m=
anet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What&#8217;s needed is so=
me sort of quantification of if and when it becomes &#8220;not worth being =
clever, let&#8217;s just [optimised] flood&#8221;. And of whether [optimise=
d] flooding
 is more (or less) reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does &qu=
ot;group management&quot; and &quot;maintaining the broadcast tree/graph&qu=
ot; become more &quot;expensive&quot; than just flooding. this would be goo=
d to see discussed in the applicability statement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of =
course not going all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact wit=
h an instance of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine th=
at some benefits could be drawn from
 the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if SMF and ODMRP =
are, both, running on the same device, are we expecting synergy or conflict=
?]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Obvious limiting cases ar=
e everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast gr=
oup.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, everything &quot;less than everybody&quot; and =
&quot;more than two&quot; are the interesting cases :D<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Christopher Dearlove</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>|<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.bae=
systems.com</span></a><br>
<br>
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thomas
 Clausen [<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February =
2014 13:39<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Chri=
stopher (UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario Gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [mane=
t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i><=
/strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&=
nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">that
 you can look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span class=
=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&nbsp;</span></i></s=
pan><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.=
com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span class=3D"=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems=
.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20=
Emails.pdf"><span style=3D"color:purple">this
 process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The obvious question is c=
omparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published=
 results?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That was also one of my questions, alas, I think tha=
t they're not entirely comparable in that the former does group management =
whereas the latter does &quot;optimized flooding&quot;. Thus, I'd suspect (=
at least, hope) that there would be scenarios
 where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load than SMF (say, a big =
network and a small group with group members being topologically far apart)=
 and possibly vice-versa also.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that published results on this would be inte=
resting - caveating with the usual &quot;show me a protocol, and I'll come =
up with a scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX&quot;, of course.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to=
 the Authors, those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily f=
igure out where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also no=
te that the year for that reference
 is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Christopher Dearlove</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>|<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.bae=
systems.com</span></a><br>
<br>
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">manet
 [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">ma=
ilto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February =
2014 11:38<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.org</span><=
/a>&gt; List<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; gerla=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] F=
wd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i><=
/strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&=
nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">that
 you can look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span class=
=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&nbsp;</span></i></s=
pan><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.=
com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span class=3D"=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems=
.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20=
Emails.pdf"><span style=3D"color:purple">this
 process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritt=
en to use the RFC5444 packet format.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We also submitted a new experimental draft specifyin=
g an extension of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links.=
 Here's the link:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-ma=
net-odmrp-asym-00"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>.
 Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can =
be a useful alternative to blacklisting such links.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any feedback or comment on those documents would be =
very appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Axel<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-man=
et-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Date:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC&#43;1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C0:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;">&quot;Yunjung Yi&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yun=
jung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-Yunjung-=
Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;William Su&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietf=
a.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.ams=
l.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Axel Coli Verdiere&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
axel@axelcdv.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&=
gt;,
 &quot;Sung-Ju Lee&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ie=
tfa.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.=
amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.ed=
u"><span style=3D"color:purple">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;Professor Mario Gerla&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the=
<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>
Revision:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<b=
r>
Title:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"a=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (OD=
MRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>
Document date:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>2014-02-14<br>
Group:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>Individual Submission<br>
Pages:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>
URL: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerl=
a-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></a><br>
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><b=
r>
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts=
.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,<b=
r>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a su=
bset<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &=
nbsp;It<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and ma=
intain<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad h=
oc wireless<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at<span class=3D"apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">tools.ietf.org</span></a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">**********************************************************=
**********<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">______________________________________=
_________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</span></a></span><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">______________________________________=
_________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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From nobody Mon Feb 17 08:07:02 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 17:06:49 +0100
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References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259981@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <C8A41E49-EA61-4743-AF8C-55F402A1872A@thomasclausen.org> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259A62@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <7E1FC2F0-7892-441F-8711-0266F788B8C7@thomasclausen.org> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259A8A@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net>
To: Christopher Dearlove <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/U6eY_K8wZmhFGaSPbKA54dZsPZU
Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Violent agreement ;)

On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:06, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

> The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF =
or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just =
use the other all the time.
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.
> =20
> Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" =
and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than =
just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.
> =20
> [While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]
>=20
>=20
> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.
> =20
> Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with =
experience of both? Published results?
> =20
> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
> =20
> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
> =20
> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
> =20
> Cheers,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re
> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Dear all,
> =20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
> =20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
> =20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
> =20
> Thank you,
> =20
> Axel
> =20
> =20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
> =20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> =20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_093ED4CE-BBE2-41BE-8918-C465F28AEDEC
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;">Violent agreement ;)<div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb =
2014, at 17:06, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad =
result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you =
might as well just use the other all the =
time.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: =
underline;">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered =
Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales =
No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen [<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
16:00<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;"><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">*** =
WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
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ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On 17 =
Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if =
and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] =
flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) =
reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group =
management" and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more =
"expensive" than just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in =
the applicability statement.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of =
course not going all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact =
with an instance of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I =
imagine that some benefits could be drawn from the topology view =
acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, =
running on the same device, are we expecting synergy or =
conflict?]<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the =
multicast group, and very small number in multicast =
group.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Yes, =
everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting =
cases :D<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems =
(Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, =
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">Thomas Clausen [<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114);">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The obvious question is comparing =
ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">There =
are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those =
references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I =
could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the =
year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems =
(Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, =
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; =
List<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114);">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span>=
</a>. Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe =
it can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Thank =
you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">D=E9but=
 du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 =
UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">=C0:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel =
Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario =
Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
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nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span =
style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.tx=
t</span></a><br>Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span><=
/a><br>Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><=
br><br><br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed =
for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a =
mesh-based, rather than a conventional =
tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group =
concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast =
packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand =
procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
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From nobody Mon Feb 17 08:50:22 2014
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From: Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
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Subject: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Dear all,=20

I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.=20

Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.=20

Although it is mentioned that=20

" a bad
   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from =
inefficient to
   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
   metric types across the MANET."

and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I =
still feel this issues should be more elaborated.=20
What I understood is that:

	o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other =
MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.=20

	o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for =
example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then =
they can't be interconnected either.=20

I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability =
statement.=20

It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm =
thinking about some possibilities like:

	o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
=09
	o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be =
supported by all routers.=20

best

Jiazi


From nobody Mon Feb 17 09:03:26 2014
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 =
(not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the =
other half the routers use metric type BAR?

Thomas

On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear all,=20
>=20
> I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.=20
>=20
> Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.=20
>=20
> Although it is mentioned that=20
>=20
> " a bad
>   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere =
from inefficient to
>   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>   metric types across the MANET."
>=20
> and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I =
still feel this issues should be more elaborated.=20
> What I understood is that:
>=20
> 	o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other =
MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.=20
>=20
> 	o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for =
example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then =
they can't be interconnected either.=20
>=20
> I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability =
statement.=20
>=20
> It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm =
thinking about some possibilities like:
>=20
> 	o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
> =09
> 	o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be =
supported by all routers.=20
>=20
> best
>=20
> Jiazi
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From nobody Mon Feb 17 09:16:44 2014
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References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259981@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <C8A41E49-EA61-4743-AF8C-55F402A1872A@thomasclausen.org> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259A62@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <7E1FC2F0-7892-441F-8711-0266F788B8C7@thomasclausen.org> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259A8A@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we =
presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM =
version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well =
more of a graft with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of =
the SMF flooding mesh alive on a group-specific basis).  With Elastic =
Multicast, there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF =
flooding behavior where there are high dynamics.  I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP.  As with =
other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances.  It =
would be interesting to have implementations of both available for =
comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.

Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was =
initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic Multicast =
and there was some discussion consideration towards instantiating  ODMRP =
on top of the SMF flooding mesh.  Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't =
accessible yet, I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be =
worth consideration.  With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.

Given some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast =
within MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various =
multicast routing requirements for MANET including group management, =
gateway interaction with other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected =
application/transport protocol needs and behaviors.  There may be some =
common aspects (e.g. group membership mechanisms, management, etc) =
regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, =
proactive, etc)


cheers,

Brian

On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

> The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF =
or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just =
use the other all the time.
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
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> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.
> =20
> Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" =
and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than =
just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.
> =20
> [While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]
>=20
>=20
> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.
> =20
> Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with =
experience of both? Published results?
> =20
> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
> =20
> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
> =20
> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
> =20
> Cheers,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re
> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Dear all,
> =20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
> =20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
> =20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
> =20
> Thank you,
> =20
> Axel
> =20
> =20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
> =20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> =20
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> =20
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_0A950609-61F8-40CF-A0FB-D0D298522DE8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><base href=3D"x-msg://190/"></head><body =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The Elastic Multicast =
(draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we presented at the last =
IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM version) with respect to =
them both being a form of flood and prune (well more of a graft with =
"downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of the SMF flooding =
mesh alive on a group-specific basis). &nbsp;With Elastic Multicast, =
there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF flooding =
behavior where there are high dynamics. &nbsp;I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP. &nbsp;As =
with other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances. =
&nbsp;It would be interesting to have implementations of both available =
for comparison and exploration of these =
tradeoffs.<div><br></div><div>Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and =
the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was initiated under the same ONR-sponsored =
effort as the Elastic Multicast and there was some discussion =
consideration towards instantiating &nbsp;ODMRP on top of the SMF =
flooding mesh. &nbsp;Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, =
I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be worth =
consideration. &nbsp;With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.</div><div><br></div><div>Given some potential =
interest in addressing group-specific multicast within MANET, it may be =
worthwhile to outline some of the various multicast routing requirements =
for MANET including group management, gateway interaction with other =
routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected application/transport protocol =
needs and behaviors. &nbsp;There may be some common aspects (e.g. group =
membership mechanisms, management, etc) regardless of the specific =
routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, proactive, =
etc)<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Brian</div><div><br><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The limiting cases have =
their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant =
extreme (consistently), you might as well just use the other all the =
time.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">BAE =
Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box =
87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen =
[mailto:thomas@<a href=3D"http://thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
16:00<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; "><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red; ">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; ">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if =
and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] =
flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) =
reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Absolutely. To =
quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "maintaining =
the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flooding. =
this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Obvious limiting cases are =
everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast =
group.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes, =
everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting =
cases :D<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Thomas Clausen [<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with =
SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; =
gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>. =
Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it =
can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">=C0:<span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "William Su" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span=
></a><br>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><br>=
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br><br>=
<br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol =
(ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad =
hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, =
rather than a conventional tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme =
and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of =
nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). =
&nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically =
build routes and maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. =
&nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks =
with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, =
topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is =
constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of =
minutes from the time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and =
diff are available at<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a=
 href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">tools.ietf.org</span></a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><p style=3D"margin-right: =
0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; =
">********************************************************************<br>=
This email and any attachments are confidential to the =
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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IMHO, there is no comparison in current publications of ODMRP vs SMF, but I
think there are for MAODV vs ODMRP. The question needs to compare two
similar protocols but SMF is not reactive. So why we do not ask what is the
comparison between multicast AODVv2 (the current reactive WG protocol) and
ODMRP?

AB

On Monday, February 17, 2014, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:

>  The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with
> experience of both? Published results?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','chris.dearlove=
@baesystems.com');>|
> http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre=
,
> Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>
>
>
> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',=
'manet-bounces@ietf.org');>]
> *On Behalf Of *Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re
> *Sent:* 17 February 2014 11:38
> *To:* <manet@ietf.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','manet@ietf.org');>>
> List
> *Cc:* soon Oh; gerla
> *Subject:* [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for
> draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>
>
>
>
>
> **** WARNING ****
>
> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an
> external partner or the internet.*
>
> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any
> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you
> can look out for in emails you receive, click here
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documen=
ts/Red%20Flags.pdf>.*
> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documen=
ts/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.*
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's
> interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RFC54=
44
> packet format.
>
>
>
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of
> ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the link=
:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given the
> characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a usef=
ul
> alternative to blacklisting such links.
>
>
>
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Axel
>
>
>
>
>
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>
>
>
>  *De: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
> *Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt*
>
> *Date: *14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>
> *=C0: *"Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William S=
u"
> <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" <
> axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" <unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.co=
m>,
> Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <
> gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to t=
he
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad
> Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and us
>
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>

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IMHO, there is no comparison in current=A0publications of ODMRP vs SMF, but=
 I think there are for MAODV vs ODMRP. The question needs to compare two si=
milar protocols but SMF is not reactive. So why we do=A0not ask what is the=
 comparison between multicast AODVv2 (the current reactive WG protocol)=A0a=
nd ODMRP?<div>
<br></div><div>AB<br><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Dearlove, Christophe=
r (UK)  wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">The obvious question is c=
omparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published=
 results?<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">--
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Christopher Dearlove<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: +44 1245 242194=A0|=A0 Fax: +44 1245 242124<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><a href=3D"javascript:_e(=
%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;chris.dearlove@baesystems.com&#39;);" target=3D"=
_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com</span></a>
 | <a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.baesy=
stems.com</a><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cv=
ml&#39;,&#39;manet-bounces@ietf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">manet-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2014 11:38<br>
<b>To:</b> &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&#39;manet@ie=
tf.org&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List<br>
<b>Cc:</b> soon Oh; gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet=
-odmrp-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<u></u><u></u></span><=
/b></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>

<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
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t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p>Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there&#=
39;s interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RF=
C5444 packet format.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of OD=
MRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here&#39;s the link=
:=A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-0=
0</a>.
 Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can =
be a useful alternative to blacklisting such links.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Thank you,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p>Axel<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p>D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">De: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
"><a>internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</spa=
n></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">Date: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">=C0: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
">&quot;Yunjung Yi&quot; &lt;<a>unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>=
&gt;, &quot;William Su&quot; &lt;<a>unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com=
</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Axel Coli Verdiere&quot; &lt;<a>axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Sung=
-Ju Lee&quot; &lt;<a>unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mari=
o Gerla &lt;<a>gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Professor Mario Gerla&quot; &lt;<a>gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel C=
olin de Verdiere &lt;<a>axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p><u></u>=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the=
<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:<span>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>draft-gerla-manet=
-odmrp<br>
Revision:<span>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>00<br>
Title:<span>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>On-Demand =
Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>
Document date:<span>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>2014-02-14<br>
Group:<span>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>Individual Submissi=
on<br>
Pages:<span>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 </span>29<br>
URL: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/intern=
et-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf=
.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</a><br>
Status: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</a><br>
Htmlized: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ger=
la-manet-odmrp-00" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla=
-manet-odmrp-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=A0=A0The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast<br>
=A0=A0routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>
=A0=A0ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,<br>
=A0=A0multicast scheme and us</p></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<p>********************************************************************<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</p></d=
iv>

</blockquote></div>

--20cf3011e02761207804f29d9705--


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 18:39:40 +0100
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References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259981@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <CADnDZ8_GKp76hNEgwb53U9U3wwa+6inZh2xkLg6u_r9=3qAeCA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:36, Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> IMHO, there is no comparison in current publications of ODMRP vs SMF, =
but I think there are for MAODV vs ODMRP. The question needs to compare =
two similar protocols but SMF is not reactive. So why we do not ask what =
is the comparison between multicast AODVv2 (the current reactive WG =
protocol) and ODMRP?

Because it's an uninteresting question to ask: I have never heard of =
"multicast AODVv2".


> AB
>=20
> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with =
experience of both? Published results?
>=20
> =20
>=20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
>=20
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>=20
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>=20
> =20
>=20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re
> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> *** WARNING ***
>=20
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Thank you,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Axel
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>=20
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>=20
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>=20
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and us
>=20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:36, Abdussalam =
Baryun &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com">abdussalambaryun@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">IMHO, there is no comparison in current&nbsp;publications =
of ODMRP vs SMF, but I think there are for MAODV vs ODMRP. The question =
needs to compare two similar protocols but SMF is not reactive. So why =
we do&nbsp;not ask what is the comparison between multicast AODVv2 (the =
current reactive WG protocol)&nbsp;and =
ODMRP?</blockquote><div><br></div>Because it's an uninteresting question =
to ask: I have never heard of "multicast =
AODVv2".</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div>AB</div><div><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, =
Dearlove, Christopher (UK)  wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. =
Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d">--
<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: +44 1245 =
242124<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
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target=3D"_blank"><span =
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</span></a>
 | <a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br>
<br>
</span><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;"> manet [mailto:<a =
href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','manet-bounces@ietf.org');" =
target=3D"_blank">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2014 11:38<br>
<b>To:</b> &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','manet@ietf.org');" =
target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List<br>
<b>Cc:</b> soon Oh; gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt =
2.0pt"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"text-align:center;background:white"><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><u></u>&nbs=
p;<u></u></span></p>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"text-align:center;background:white"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>

</div>
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center;background:white">
<em><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333972"><br>

<em><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">For =
information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you receive,
 click <a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:#333972"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><p>Dear all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p>We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p>We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an =
extension of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. =
Here's the link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-=
00</a>.
 Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it =
can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p>Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p>Thank you,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p>Axel<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div><p>D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div><p><b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De: =
</span>
</b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a>inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Objet: =
New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Date: =
</span>
</b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">14 =
f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div><p><b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C0: =
</span>
</b><span =
style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">"Yunjun=
g Yi" &lt;<a>unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, "William =
Su" &lt;<a>unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;,
 "Axel Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a>axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
&lt;<a>unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</a>&gt;, Mario Gerla =
&lt;<a>gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;,
 "Professor Mario Gerla" &lt;<a>gerla@cs.ucla.edu</a>&gt;, Axel Colin de =
Verdiere &lt;<a>axel@axelcdv.com</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div><p><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div><p style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to =
the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
=
Name:<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>
Revision:<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span>00<br>
=
Title:<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol =
(ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>
Document =
date:<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span>2014-02-14<br>
=
Group:<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; </span>Individual Submission<br>
=
Pages:<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>29<br>
URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" =
target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt</a><br>
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp=
/</a><br>
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a=
><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a =
multicast<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile =
hosts.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional =
tree-based,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and =
us</p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p>*****************************=
***************************************<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
=
********************************************************************</p></=
div>

</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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I won't say that they are different.
However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple
metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more
attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?

Jiazi


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>wrote:

> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not
> -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half
> the routers use metric type BAR?
>
> Thomas
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
> >
> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its
> interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different
> set of metrics.
> >
> > Although it is mentioned that
> >
> > " a bad
> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from
> inefficient to
> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
> >   metric types across the MANET."
> >
> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I
> still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> > What I understood is that:
> >
> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other
> MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
> >
> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for
> example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they
> can't be interconnected either.
> >
> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability
> statement.
> >
> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm
> thinking about some possibilities like:
> >
> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
> >
> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be
> supported by all routers.
> >
> > best
> >
> > Jiazi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--047d7bb04b3e4dfe2e04f29db5ba
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I won&#39;t say that they are different.=A0<div>However, i=
n OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple metrics are=
 discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more attention (mayb=
e I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
 Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, say,=
 a network running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metri=
c type FOO and the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>

<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; =A0 collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere f=
rom inefficient to<br>
&gt; =A0 non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link=
<br>
&gt; =A0 metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by ot=
her MT-OLSR routers, then it&#39;s unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersectio=
n (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), th=
en they can&#39;t be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I&#39;=
m thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknow=
n, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop-count, w=
hich should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7bb04b3e4dfe2e04f29db5ba--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 09:52:31 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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To: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:

> I won't say that they are different.=20
> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as =
multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to =
paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this =
issue)?=20
>=20

Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that =
you didn't think that they were different problems.

In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of =
mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its =
own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a =
deployment where the network operators are going through extraordinary =
lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" =
differently in OLSRv2 routers).

I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the =
text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.

Thomas

> Jiazi
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 =
(not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the =
other half the routers use metric type BAR?
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
> >
> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.
> >
> > Although it is mentioned that
> >
> > " a bad
> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere =
from inefficient to
> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
> >   metric types across the MANET."
> >
> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, =
I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> > What I understood is that:
> >
> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other =
MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.
> >
> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection =
(for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), =
then they can't be interconnected either.
> >
> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the =
applicability statement.
> >
> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm =
thinking about some possibilities like:
> >
> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, =
or
> >
> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be =
supported by all routers.
> >
> > best
> >
> > Jiazi
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href="mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">I won't say that they are different.&nbsp;<div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn't think that they were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 routers).</div><div><br></div><div>I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target="_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>

<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div class="h5"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href="mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set of metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; " a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET."<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></body></html>
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From nobody Mon Feb 17 10:00:21 2014
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:00:05 +0100
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To: Brian Adamson <brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil>
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Hi all,

Thanks a lot for your comments. A few replies:

- The ODMRP paper referenced is from Mobile Networks and Application =
Journal, Vol.7 issue 6 from Dec. 2002., pp 441-453. The FGMP paper is =
from Cluster Computing June 1998, vol.1, issue 2, pp 187-196.

- As for SMF vs ODMRP, I do not have definitive results pointing to the =
limit where one becomes more efficient than the other. However the idea =
of taking advantage of the relay set built by SMF should work to =
disseminate Join Queries, the same way it can be used for unicast =
routing protocols such as AODV. I believe it should lead to something =
relatively close to Elastic Multicast actually, except for the periodic =
flooding of Join Queries.

- The idea behind ODMRP-ASYM could also very probably apply to a =
protocol such as Elastic Multicast: I think that routing the EM-ACK =
packet around the unidirectional link could work. The only issue would =
be that the relay set selection only uses bidirectional links as well, =
which is something that ODMRP (with or without SMF) would not have to =
deal with.

Best,

Axel

Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 18:16, Brian Adamson <brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil> =
a =E9crit :

> The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we =
presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM =
version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well =
more of a graft with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of =
the SMF flooding mesh alive on a group-specific basis).  With Elastic =
Multicast, there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF =
flooding behavior where there are high dynamics.  I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP.  As with =
other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances.  It =
would be interesting to have implementations of both available for =
comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.
>=20
> Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was =
initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic Multicast =
and there was some discussion consideration towards instantiating  ODMRP =
on top of the SMF flooding mesh.  Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't =
accessible yet, I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be =
worth consideration.  With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.
>=20
> Given some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast =
within MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various =
multicast routing requirements for MANET including group management, =
gateway interaction with other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected =
application/transport protocol needs and behaviors.  There may be some =
common aspects (e.g. group membership mechanisms, management, etc) =
regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, =
proactive, etc)
>=20
>=20
> cheers,
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>> The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF =
or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just =
use the other all the time.
>> =20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>> =20
>> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
>> Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>> Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
>> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> =20
>> =20
>> *** WARNING ***
>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>=20
>> =20
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.
>> =20
>> Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" =
and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than =
just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.
>> =20
>> [While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]
>>=20
>>=20
>> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.
>> =20
>> Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D
>> =20
>> Thomas
>> =20
>> =20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>> =20
>> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
>> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
>> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> =20
>> =20
>> *** WARNING ***
>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>=20
>> Chris,
>> =20
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone =
with experience of both? Published results?
>> =20
>> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
>> =20
>> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
>> =20
>> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
>> =20
>> Cheers,
>> =20
>> Thomas
>> =20
>> =20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>> =20
>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin =
de Verdi=E8re
>> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
>> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
>> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
>> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> =20
>> =20
>> *** WARNING ***
>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>> =20
>> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>> =20
>> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>> =20
>> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
>> =20
>> Thank you,
>> =20
>> Axel
>> =20
>> =20
>> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>> =20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>> Revision:         00
>> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) =
for Ad Hoc Networks
>> Document date:          2014-02-14
>> Group:             Individual Submission
>> Pages:              29
>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>=20
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>=20
>> =20
>> ********************************************************************
>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>> ********************************************************************
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_6DC8C53A-799E-46EB-9A7B-20D50D38B785
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
all,<div><br></div><div>Thanks a lot for your comments. A few =
replies:</div><div><br></div><div>- The ODMRP paper referenced is from =
Mobile Networks and Application Journal, Vol.7 issue 6 from Dec. 2002., =
pp 441-453. The FGMP paper is from Cluster Computing June 1998, vol.1, =
issue 2, pp 187-196.</div><div><br></div><div>- As for SMF vs ODMRP, I =
do not have definitive results pointing to the limit where one becomes =
more efficient than the other. However the idea of taking advantage of =
the relay set built by SMF should work to disseminate Join Queries, the =
same way it can be used for unicast routing protocols such as AODV. I =
believe it should lead to something relatively close to Elastic =
Multicast actually, except for the periodic flooding of Join =
Queries.</div><div><br></div><div>- The idea behind ODMRP-ASYM could =
also very probably apply to a protocol such as Elastic Multicast: I =
think that routing the EM-ACK packet around the unidirectional link =
could work. The only issue would be that the relay set selection only =
uses bidirectional links as well, which is something that ODMRP (with or =
without SMF) would not have to deal =
with.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div><d=
iv><br><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 18:16, Brian Adamson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil">brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil</a>&=
gt; a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><base href=3D"x-msg://190/"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The Elastic Multicast =
(draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we presented at the last =
IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM version) with respect to =
them both being a form of flood and prune (well more of a graft with =
"downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of the SMF flooding =
mesh alive on a group-specific basis). &nbsp;With Elastic Multicast, =
there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF flooding =
behavior where there are high dynamics. &nbsp;I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP. &nbsp;As =
with other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances. =
&nbsp;It would be interesting to have implementations of both available =
for comparison and exploration of these =
tradeoffs.<div><br></div><div>Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and =
the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was initiated under the same ONR-sponsored =
effort as the Elastic Multicast and there was some discussion =
consideration towards instantiating &nbsp;ODMRP on top of the SMF =
flooding mesh. &nbsp;Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, =
I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be worth =
consideration. &nbsp;With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.</div><div><br></div><div>Given some potential =
interest in addressing group-specific multicast within MANET, it may be =
worthwhile to outline some of the various multicast routing requirements =
for MANET including group management, gateway interaction with other =
routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected application/transport protocol =
needs and behaviors. &nbsp;There may be some common aspects (e.g. group =
membership mechanisms, management, etc) regardless of the specific =
routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, proactive, =
etc)<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Brian</div><div><br><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: inherit; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad =
result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you =
might as well just use the other all the =
time.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">BAE =
Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box =
87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen =
[mailto:thomas@<a href=3D"http://thomasclausen.org/" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
16:00<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; "><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red; ">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; ">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if =
and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] =
flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) =
reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Absolutely. To =
quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "maintaining =
the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flooding. =
this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Obvious limiting cases are =
everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast =
group.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes, =
everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting =
cases :D<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Thomas Clausen [<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with =
SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; =
gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>. =
Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it =
can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">=C0:<span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "William Su" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span=
></a><br>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><br>=
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br><br>=
<br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol =
(ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad =
hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, =
rather than a conventional tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme =
and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of =
nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). =
&nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically =
build routes and maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. =
&nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks =
with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, =
topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is =
constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of =
minutes from the time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and =
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Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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It's been so long since I looked at ODMRP that I'd forgotten it was on dema=
nd. That makes it less attractive as a WG item in that developing an on dem=
and multicast protocol before an on demand unicast protocol is complete is =
a bit odd.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: Brian Adamson [mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil]
Sent: 17 February 2014 17:16
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Thomas Clausen; soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt


*** WARNING ***
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ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we pres=
ented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM version) with=
 respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well more of a graft=
 with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of the SMF flooding =
mesh alive on a group-specific basis).  With Elastic Multicast, there is a =
natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF flooding behavior where t=
here are high dynamics.  I would also note that Elastic Multicast uses the =
proactively-created flooding topology (per NHDP and SMF relay set selection=
 and possibly metric-based approaches to getting there) as opposed to an "o=
n demand" approach per ODMRP.  As with other proactive vs. reactive (on dem=
and) MANET tradeoffs, there is probably utility in both approaches for diff=
erent circumstances.  It would be interesting to have implementations of bo=
th available for comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.

Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was initi=
ated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic Multicast and there=
 was some discussion consideration towards instantiating  ODMRP on top of t=
he SMF flooding mesh.  Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, I=
 haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be worth consideration=
.  With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here since the current SMF =
relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal (bi-directional) links.

Given some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast within=
 MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various multicast routi=
ng requirements for MANET including group management, gateway interaction w=
ith other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected application/transport proto=
col needs and behaviors.  There may be some common aspects (e.g. group memb=
ership mechanisms, management, etc) regardless of the specific routing mech=
anism (e.g. whether reactive, proactive, etc)


cheers,

Brian

On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@=
baesystems.com<mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:


The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF or ODM=
RP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just use the =
other all the time.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org<http://thomasclausen.=
org>]
Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>> List; Mario Gerla
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt


*** WARNING ***
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On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:



What's needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it becomes "not=
 worth being clever, let's just [optimised] flood". And of whether [optimis=
ed] flooding is more (or less) reliable.

Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "ma=
intaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flood=
ing. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability statement.

[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going all th=
e way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance of OLSRv2=
 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some benefits could =
be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if S=
MF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, are we expecting synerg=
y or conflict?]



Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and very sma=
ll number in multicast group.

Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesti=
ng cases :D

Thomas


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com<http://www.baesystems.com/>

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]
Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>> List;=
 soon Oh; Mario Gerla
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-od=
mrp-00.txt


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anet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20W=
ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Chris,

On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:




The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with expe=
rience of both? Published results?

That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter does=
 "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there would =
be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load than SMF =
(say, a big network and a small group with group members being topologicall=
y far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.

I agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating wit=
h the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario where it =
won't work as well as XXXX", of course.

There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those ref=
erences are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I could=
 dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the year for th=
at reference is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)

Cheers,

Thomas


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com<http://www.baesystems.com/>

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de Verd=
i=E8re
Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
To: <manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>> List
Cc: soon Oh; gerla
Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-=
00.txt


*** WARNING ***
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Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme=
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Dear all,

We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's in=
terest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RFC5444 p=
acket format.

We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP=
 that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the link: http:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given the characteri=
stics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a useful alternati=
ve to blacklisting such links.

Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.

Thank you,

Axel


D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :





De: internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
=C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-e=
mail-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ie=
tfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>>, "Axel Coli V=
erdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>, "Sung-Ju Lee" <unknow=
n-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com<mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.a=
msl.com>>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, "Prof=
essor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu<mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu>>, Axel Coli=
n de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com<mailto:axel@axelcdv.com>>


A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
Revision:         00
Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad H=
oc Networks
Document date:          2014-02-14
Group:             Individual Submission
Pages:              29
URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp=
-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00


Abstract:
  The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
  routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
  ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
  multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
  of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
  applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and maintain
  multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless
  networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
  changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org<http://=
tools.ietf.org/>.

The IETF Secretariat


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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">It&#8217;s been so long s=
ince I looked at ODMRP that I&#8217;d forgotten it was on demand. That make=
s it less attractive as a WG item in that developing an on demand multicast
 protocol before an on demand unicast protocol is complete is a bit odd.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Brian Adamson [mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 17 February 2014 17:16<br>
<b>To:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Thomas Clausen; soon Oh; &lt;manet@ietf.org&gt; List; Mario Gerl=
a<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-m=
anet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmc=
ast-00) concept we presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the=
 non-ASYM version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prun=
e (well more of a graft with &quot;downstream&quot;
 routers ACKing to keep that portion of the SMF flooding mesh alive on a gr=
oup-specific basis). &nbsp;With Elastic Multicast, there is a natural devo-=
lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF flooding behavior where there are high=
 dynamics. &nbsp;I would also note that Elastic
 Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per NHDP and SMF=
 relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to getting there)=
 as opposed to an &quot;on demand&quot; approach per ODMRP. &nbsp;As with o=
ther proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs,
 there is probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances. =
&nbsp;It would be interesting to have implementations of both available for=
 comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-=
ASYM protocol was initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elas=
tic Multicast and there was some discussion consideration towards instantia=
ting &nbsp;ODMRP on top of the SMF flooding
 mesh. &nbsp;Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, I haven't s=
een if that idea was adopted, but it could be worth consideration. &nbsp;Wi=
th ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here since the current SMF relay=
 set selection algorithms require reciprocal
 (bi-directional) links.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given some potential interest in addressing group-sp=
ecific multicast within MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the =
various multicast routing requirements for MANET including group management=
, gateway interaction with other routing
 domains (e.g., PIM), expected application/transport protocol needs and beh=
aviors. &nbsp;There may be some common aspects (e.g. group membership mecha=
nisms, management, etc) regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. =
whether reactive, proactive, etc)<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brian<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, &quot;Dearlove, Christ=
opher (UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris=
.Dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The limiting cases have t=
heir uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extre=
me (consistently), you might as well just use the other
 all the time.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Christopher Dearlove</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>|<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"http://www.baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.baes=
ystems.com</span></a><br>
<br>
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thomas
 Clausen [mailto:thomas@<a href=3D"http://thomasclausen.org"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-=
space">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February =
2014 16:00<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Chri=
stopher (UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.or=
g</span></a>&gt; List; Mario Gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [mane=
t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i><=
/strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&=
nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">that
 you can look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span class=
=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&nbsp;</span></i></s=
pan><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.=
com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span class=3D"=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems=
.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20=
Emails.pdf"><span style=3D"color:purple">this
 process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">What&#8217;s needed is so=
me sort of quantification of if and when it becomes &#8220;not worth being =
clever, let&#8217;s just [optimised] flood&#8221;. And of whether [optimise=
d] flooding
 is more (or less) reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does &qu=
ot;group management&quot; and &quot;maintaining the broadcast tree/graph&qu=
ot; become more &quot;expensive&quot; than just flooding. this would be goo=
d to see discussed in the applicability statement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of =
course not going all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact wit=
h an instance of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine th=
at some benefits could be drawn from
 the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if SMF and ODMRP =
are, both, running on the same device, are we expecting synergy or conflict=
?]<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Obvious limiting cases ar=
e everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast gr=
oup.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, everything &quot;less than everybody&quot; and =
&quot;more than two&quot; are the interesting cases :D<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Christopher Dearlove</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>|<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.bae=
systems.com</span></a><br>
<br>
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Thomas
 Clausen [<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-con=
verted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February =
2014 13:39<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Chri=
stopher (UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purp=
le">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario Gerla<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [mane=
t] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><=
o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i><=
/strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&=
nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">that
 you can look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span class=
=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&nbsp;</span></i></s=
pan><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.=
com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span class=3D"=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems=
.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20=
Emails.pdf"><span style=3D"color:purple">this
 process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Chris,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:=
purple">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The obvious question is c=
omparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published=
 results?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That was also one of my questions, alas, I think tha=
t they're not entirely comparable in that the former does group management =
whereas the latter does &quot;optimized flooding&quot;. Thus, I'd suspect (=
at least, hope) that there would be scenarios
 where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load than SMF (say, a big =
network and a small group with group members being topologically far apart)=
 and possibly vice-versa also.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that published results on this would be inte=
resting - caveating with the usual &quot;show me a protocol, and I'll come =
up with a scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX&quot;, of course.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to=
 the Authors, those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily f=
igure out where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also no=
te that the year for that reference
 is missing, is that recent work, or 1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">--</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Christopher Dearlove</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D;text-decoration:none">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span class=3D"apple-converted-spac=
e">&nbsp;</span>|<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=
=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.bae=
systems.com</span></a><br>
<br>
BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></s=
pan><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">manet
 [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">ma=
ilto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;<=
/span></b>Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February =
2014 11:38<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.org</span><=
/a>&gt; List<br>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; gerla=
<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] F=
wd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white;background-position:initial initial;backgroun=
d-repeat:initial initial">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i><=
/strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:1=
0.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&=
nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">that
 you can look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span class=
=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">&nbsp;</span></i></s=
pan><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.=
com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf"><span style=3D=
"color:purple">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5=
pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span class=3D"=
apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems=
.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20=
Emails.pdf"><span style=3D"color:purple">this
 process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritt=
en to use the RFC5444 packet format.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We also submitted a new experimental draft specifyin=
g an extension of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links.=
 Here's the link:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-ma=
net-odmrp-asym-00"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>.
 Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can =
be a useful alternative to blacklisting such links.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Any feedback or comment on those documents would be =
very appreciated.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Axel<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">De:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</sp=
an></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;"><a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org"><span style=3D"colo=
r:purple">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-man=
et-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Date:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC&#43;1</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;">=C0:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</s=
pan></span></b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-=
serif&quot;">&quot;Yunjung Yi&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yun=
jung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-Yunjung-=
Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;William Su&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietf=
a.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.ams=
l.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;Axel Coli Verdiere&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
axel@axelcdv.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&=
gt;,
 &quot;Sung-Ju Lee&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ie=
tfa.amsl.com"><span style=3D"color:purple">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.=
amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.ed=
u"><span style=3D"color:purple">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;,
 &quot;Professor Mario Gerla&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu"=
><span style=3D"color:purple">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin =
de Verdiere &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com"><span style=3D"color:pu=
rple">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the=
<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converte=
d-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>
Revision:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<b=
r>
Title:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"a=
pple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (OD=
MRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>
Document date:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>2014-02-14<br>
Group:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-spa=
ce">&nbsp;</span>Individual Submission<br>
Pages:<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>
URL: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt">=
<span style=3D"color:purple">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerl=
a-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></a><br>
Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/"><span style=3D"color:pur=
ple">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><b=
r>
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00"><span style=3D"color:purple">http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br>
<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts=
.<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,<b=
r>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a su=
bset<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). &=
nbsp;It<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and ma=
intain<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad h=
oc wireless<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology=
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at<span class=3D"apple-co=
nverted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/"><span style=
=3D"color:purple">tools.ietf.org</span></a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;">**********************************************************=
**********<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</span>=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">______________________________________=
_________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
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r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</span></a></span><o:p=
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</blockquote>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Hel=
vetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">______________________________________=
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manet mailing list<br>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">_____________________________________=
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manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"><span style=3D"color:purple">manet@ietf.o=
rg</span></a><br>
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r:purple">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
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References: <20140214212154.10291.4992.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <A04E119A-9092-4918-8DA2-CBA59B0BD486@axelcdv.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259981@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <C8A41E49-EA61-4743-AF8C-55F402A1872A@thomasclausen.org> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259A62@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <7E1FC2F0-7892-441F-8711-0266F788B8C7@thomasclausen.org> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259A8A@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <EA7B27BD-D010-47A1-B16A-783701584446@nrl.navy.mil> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40259B6A@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Isn't it possible to develop both in parallel? After all, the unicast =
protocol is not nearly finished, it might be interesting to start =
tackling multicast-related issue in the meantime? As Brian said, =
regardless of the actual solution(s) chosen for unicast/multicast, there =
are some common aspects to determine.

Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 19:09, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> a =E9crit :

> It=92s been so long since I looked at ODMRP that I=92d forgotten it =
was on demand. That makes it less attractive as a WG item in that =
developing an on demand multicast protocol before an on demand unicast =
protocol is complete is a bit odd.
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Brian Adamson [mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 17:16
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Thomas Clausen; soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we =
presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM =
version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well =
more of a graft with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of =
the SMF flooding mesh alive on a group-specific basis).  With Elastic =
Multicast, there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF =
flooding behavior where there are high dynamics.  I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP.  As with =
other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances.  It =
would be interesting to have implementations of both available for =
comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.
> =20
> Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was =
initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic Multicast =
and there was some discussion consideration towards instantiating  ODMRP =
on top of the SMF flooding mesh.  Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't =
accessible yet, I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be =
worth consideration.  With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.
> =20
> Given some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast =
within MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various =
multicast routing requirements for MANET including group management, =
gateway interaction with other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected =
application/transport protocol needs and behaviors.  There may be some =
common aspects (e.g. group membership mechanisms, management, etc) =
regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, =
proactive, etc)
> =20
> =20
> cheers,
> =20
> Brian
> =20
> On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF =
or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just =
use the other all the time.
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
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> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.
> =20
> Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" =
and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than =
just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.
> =20
> [While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.
> =20
> Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with =
experience of both? Published results?
> =20
> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
> =20
> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
> =20
> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
> =20
> Cheers,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re
> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Dear all,
> =20
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
> =20
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of =
ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
> =20
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
> =20
> Thank you,
> =20
> Axel
> =20
> =20
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William =
Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere" =
<axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
> =20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision:         00
> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for =
Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date:          2014-02-14
> Group:             Individual Submission
> Pages:              29
> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> =20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_17CF6053-A7F1-41DB-AC4E-9E282A7744E9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Isn't =
it possible to develop both in parallel? After all, the unicast protocol =
is not nearly finished, it might be interesting to start tackling =
multicast-related issue in the meantime? As Brian said, regardless of =
the actual solution(s) chosen for unicast/multicast, there are some =
common aspects to determine.<div><br><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 =
19:09, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; a =E9crit :</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">It=92s been so long since I looked at ODMRP that I=92d =
forgotten it was on demand. That makes it less attractive as a WG item =
in that developing an on demand multicast protocol before an on demand =
unicast protocol is complete is a bit odd.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: =
underline;">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered =
Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales =
No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian Adamson [<a =
href=3D"mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
17:16<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen; soon Oh; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;"><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">*** =
WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: center; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The =
Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we =
presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM =
version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well =
more of a graft with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of =
the SMF flooding mesh alive on a group-specific basis). &nbsp;With =
Elastic Multicast, there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more =
meshy, SMF flooding behavior where there are high dynamics. &nbsp;I =
would also note that Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created =
flooding topology (per NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly =
metric-based approaches to getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" =
approach per ODMRP. &nbsp;As with other proactive vs. reactive (on =
demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is probably utility in both approaches =
for different circumstances. &nbsp;It would be interesting to have =
implementations of both available for comparison and exploration of =
these tradeoffs.<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Some =
of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was =
initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic Multicast =
and there was some discussion consideration towards instantiating =
&nbsp;ODMRP on top of the SMF flooding mesh. &nbsp;Since the new =
odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, I haven't seen if that idea was =
adopted, but it could be worth consideration. &nbsp;With ODMRP-ASYM, =
there would be a difference here since the current SMF relay set =
selection algorithms require reciprocal (bi-directional) =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Given =
some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast within =
MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various multicast =
routing requirements for MANET including group management, gateway =
interaction with other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected =
application/transport protocol needs and behaviors. &nbsp;There may be =
some common aspects (e.g. group membership mechanisms, management, etc) =
regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, =
proactive, etc)<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Brian<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On =
Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad =
result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you =
might as well just use the other all the =
time.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems =
(Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, =
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@<a =
href=3D"http://thomasclausen.org/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
16:00<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114);">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What=92s needed is some sort of =
quantification of if and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, =
let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding =
is more (or less) reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does =
"group management" and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become =
more "expensive" than just flooding. this would be good to see discussed =
in the applicability statement.<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of =
course not going all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact =
with an instance of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I =
imagine that some benefits could be drawn from the topology view =
acquired by OLSRv2. On the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, =
running on the same device, are we expecting synergy or =
conflict?]<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Obvious limiting cases are =
everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast =
group.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Yes, =
everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting =
cases :D<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems =
(Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, =
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">Thomas Clausen [<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114);">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The obvious question is comparing =
ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">There =
are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, those =
references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out where I =
could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that the =
year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems =
(Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, =
Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;">manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 purple;">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; =
List<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;"><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114);">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
red;">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, =
114);"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">If you =
feel the email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: purple;">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span>=
</a>. Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe =
it can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Thank =
you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">D=E9but=
 du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;"><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica, sans-serif;">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 =
UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">=C0:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, =
"William Su" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel =
Coli Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario =
Gerla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div=
><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span =
style=3D"color: =
purple;">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.tx=
t</span></a><br>Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span><=
/a><br>Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color:=
 =
purple;">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><=
br><br><br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed =
for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a =
mesh-based, rather than a conventional =
tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group =
concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of nodes forwards the multicast =
packets via scoped flooding). &nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand =
procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. &nbsp;ODMRP is well =
suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks with mobile hosts =
where bandwidth is limited, topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently =
and rapidly, and power is constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note =
that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">tools.ietf.org</span></a>.<br><br>The IETF =
Secretariat<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><p style=3D"margin-right:=
 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">*************************************************************=
*******<br>This email and any attachments are confidential to the =
intended<br>recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the =
intended<br>recipient please delete it from your system and notify the =
sender.<br>You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose =
or<br>distribute its contents to any other =
person.<br>***************************************************************=
*****</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>manet =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</span></a></span><o:p=
></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>manet =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</span></a></span><o:p=
></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>manet =
mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">manet@ietf.org</span></a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
purple;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</span></a><o:p></o:p>=
</span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div>_________________________=
______________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet</div></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 19:25:14 +0100
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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Hi,

I have two questions about the new draft.

1) is there an Open Source implementation of ODMRP?
2) does it need a kernel module?

Henning Rogge

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 12:37 PM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if there's
> interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use the RFC54=
44
> packet format.
>
> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODM=
RP
> that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the link:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given the
> characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a usef=
ul
> alternative to blacklisting such links.
>
> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very appreciated.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Axel
>
>
> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>
> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, "William Su"
> <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli Verdiere"
> <axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee"
> <unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.ed=
u>,
> "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel Colin de Verdiere
> <axel@axelcdv.com>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to t=
he
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
> Revision: 00
> Title: On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks
> Document date: 2014-02-14
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 29
> URL:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>
>
> Abstract:
>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset
>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and maintain
>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless
>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>


From nobody Mon Feb 17 12:17:30 2014
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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--20cf301cc5aa01732d04f29fd8fd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Monday, February 17, 2014, Thomas Clausen wrote:
>
>
> Because it's an uninteresting question to ask: I have never heard of
> "multicast AODVv2".
>

The MAODV (i.e. multicast AODV) and ODMRP are well known reactive
multicasts in our old drafts, so if a renew of the ODMRP by using RFC5444,
it is reasonable of the WG to look at our standard WG reactive protocol
that uses RFC5444 and it's multicast protocol as comparing multicast
protocols and seeing what to do.

AB

--20cf301cc5aa01732d04f29fd8fd
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Thomas Clausen  wrote:<blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div>Because =
it&#39;s an uninteresting question to ask: I have never heard of &quot;mult=
icast AODVv2&quot;.</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>The MAODV (i.e.=A0multicast AODV)=A0and OD=
MRP are well=A0known reactive multicasts=A0in our old drafts,=A0so if a ren=
ew of the=A0ODMRP by=A0using RFC5444, it is reasonable of the WG=A0to look =
at our standard=A0WG=A0reactive protocol that uses RFC5444=A0and it&#39;s m=
ulticast protocol as comparing multicast protocols=A0and seeing what to do.=
</div>
<div><br></div><div>AB</div><div><br></div><br>

--20cf301cc5aa01732d04f29fd8fd--


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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 21:23:26 +0100
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Cc: Christopher Dearlove <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>, Mario Gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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We have yet so see someone coming forward to finish MAODV and
transform it into RFC5444 format. The MAODV draft never left release
-00, so there might be a lot of work to be done.

Henning Rogge

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 9:17 PM, Abdussalam Baryun
<abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Thomas Clausen wrote:
>>
>>
>> Because it's an uninteresting question to ask: I have never heard of
>> "multicast AODVv2".
>
>
> The MAODV (i.e. multicast AODV) and ODMRP are well known reactive multicasts
> in our old drafts, so if a renew of the ODMRP by using RFC5444, it is
> reasonable of the WG to look at our standard WG reactive protocol that uses
> RFC5444 and it's multicast protocol as comparing multicast protocols and
> seeing what to do.
>
> AB
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>


From nobody Mon Feb 17 13:04:21 2014
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:04:13 +0100
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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Hi,


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>wrote:

>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I won't say that they are different.
> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple
> metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more
> attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?
>
>
> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you
> didn't think that they were different problems.
>
> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of
> mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own
> set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where
> the network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot
> themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2
> routers).
>


I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums,
it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is as
robust as possible.

For example,

 If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the
packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a
suitable
      routing table entry for the destination.


In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it
doesn't use the same metric as others.

best

Jiazi


>
> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text
> that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>
> Thomas
>
> Jiazi
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>wrote:
>
>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2
>> (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other
>> half the routers use metric type BAR?
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>> >
>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its
>> interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different
>> set of metrics.
>> >
>> > Although it is mentioned that
>> >
>> > " a bad
>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from
>> inefficient to
>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>> >
>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I
>> still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>> > What I understood is that:
>> >
>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other
>> MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
>> >
>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for
>> example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they
>> can't be interconnected either.
>> >
>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability
>> statement.
>> >
>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm
>> thinking about some possibilities like:
>> >
>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
>> >
>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be
>> supported by all routers.
>> >
>> > best
>> >
>> > Jiazi
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > manet mailing list
>> > manet@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thom=
as@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div class=3D=
""><div>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won&#39;t say that they are different.=A0<=
div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multip=
le metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more a=
ttention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?=A0</div>


<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fair enough, we can =
discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn&#39;t think tha=
t they were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the general sen=
se, I think that there&#39;s nothing much (short of mandating &quot;thou sh=
all always support metric XXX&quot; - which, alas, has its own set of probl=
ems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the network=
 operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in t=
he foot (an example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).</=
div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think for MANET, as=
 we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, it&#39;s reasonable to=
 consider that different metrics are used.=A0</div><div>Given such heteroge=
neous environment, it&#39;s expected that the protocol is as robust as poss=
ible.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>For example,=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"=
" style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"=
> If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet wi=
ll never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre class=3D"" style=
=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></=
pre></div><div>In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the desti=
nation, even it doesn&#39;t use the same metric as others.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d not object =
personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you quote, =
I think that it&#39;s pretty clear already.</div><span class=3D""><font col=
or=3D"#888888"><div>
<br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
 Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, say, a network run=
ning OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and=
 the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>


<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; =A0 collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere f=
rom inefficient to<br>
&gt; =A0 non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link=
<br>
&gt; =A0 metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by ot=
her MT-OLSR routers, then it&#39;s unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersectio=
n (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), th=
en they can&#39;t be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I&#39;=
m thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknow=
n, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop-count, w=
hich should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div=
>

--90e6ba3098246c9eaf04f2a07ff3--


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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 22:15:43 +0100
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Axel_Colin_de_Verdi=E8re?= <axel-ietf@axelcdv.com>
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Cc: soon Oh <soon@utopiacompression.com>, "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>, "<manet@ietf.org> List" <manet@ietf.org>, gerla <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
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On Monday, February 17, 2014, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re wrote:

> Isn't it possible to develop both in parallel?
>

After all, the unicast protocol is not nearly finished, it might be
> interesting to start tackling multicast-related issue in the meantime?
>

I agree to start discussing multicast. Also is it possible we ask : Why not
we don't finish the old draft of the WG of ODMRP -04 without 5444, then we
go for this new one using RFC5444.  I am not sure why the WG drafts of
multicast: MAODV and ODMRP were adopted by the WG in the past then they
left them without finishing? I expected because they found out that they
needed to finish unicast first.

AB

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<br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re  wrote:<br><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Isn&#39;t it =
possible to develop both in parallel?=A0</div>

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"></div></blockquote><div><br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">After all, th=
e unicast protocol is not nearly finished, it might be interesting to start=
 tackling multicast-related issue in the meantime?=A0</div>
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree to start discussing multicast. Als=
o is it possible we ask :=A0Why not we don&#39;t=A0finish the old draft of =
the WG of ODMRP -04 without 5444,=A0then we go for this new one using RFC54=
44.=A0=A0I am not sure why the WG=A0drafts of multicast:=A0MAODV and ODMRP =
were adopted by the WG in the past then they left them without finishing? I=
 expected because they found out that they needed to finish unicast first.=
=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>AB=A0</div>

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From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
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Subject: [manet] Preliminary MANET agenda
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I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet

Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on
Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a
formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists
MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.

Best regards
Ulrich

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:<br><a href=
=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet">http://www.i=
etf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet</a><br><br></div>Unfortunatel=
y, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on Monday afternoo=
n (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a formal request =
to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists MANET on Wednesday=
. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.<br>
<br>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>

--20cf307cffd62451dd04f2a0ff3e--


From nobody Mon Feb 17 13:48:15 2014
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 21:48:05 +0000
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References: <B22AE6B4-55C9-424B-948A-CC00CED020B7@gmail.com> <8A789D78-30FE-4924-AE60-B16D687CAC70@thomasclausen.org> <CAN1bDFwgcxVBmRhkXbEy9AJc=tshQjrHwuMiwOrgZ6rQOmjubQ@mail.gmail.com> <5BDEDFE0-D038-4214-8D15-CB4804A1E087@thomasclausen.org> <CAN1bDFyCC1-xqx9-GMtAu2C05q5o8c1bvsY3r+TOXbEXOwxW6w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among =
the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to =
deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. =
Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete =
(include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.


On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:

> Hi,=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>=20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> I won't say that they are different.=20
>> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as =
multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to =
paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this =
issue)?=20
>>=20
>=20
> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that =
you didn't think that they were different problems.
>=20
> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of =
mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its =
own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a =
deployment where the network operators are going through extraordinary =
lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" =
differently in OLSRv2 routers).
>=20
>=20
> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of =
interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics =
are used.=20
> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol =
is as robust as possible.=20
>=20
> For example,=20
>=20
>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the =
packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a =
suitable
>       routing table entry for the destination.=20
>=20
> In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, =
even it doesn't use the same metric as others.=20
>=20
> best
>=20
> Jiazi
> =20
>=20
> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the =
text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>> Jiazi
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 =
(not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the =
other half the routers use metric type BAR?
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> > Dear all,
>> >
>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>> >
>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.
>> >
>> > Although it is mentioned that
>> >
>> > " a bad
>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere =
from inefficient to
>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported =
link
>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>> >
>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations =
section, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>> > What I understood is that:
>> >
>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other =
MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.
>> >
>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection =
(for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), =
then they can't be interconnected either.
>> >
>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the =
applicability statement.
>> >
>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm =
thinking about some possibilities like:
>> >
>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, =
or
>> >
>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should =
be supported by all routers.
>> >
>> > best
>> >
>> > Jiazi
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > manet mailing list
>> > manet@ietf.org
>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div>The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) =
are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two =
points:</div><div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than =
one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to =
fail to deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent =
at all costs.</div><div>- Second, there is no reason why all topologies =
should be complete (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think =
of examples why not.</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, =
at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, =
2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div class=3D""><div>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won't say that they are =
different.&nbsp;<div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. =
But as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think =
it worth to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous =
discussions on this issue)?&nbsp;</div>


<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fair enough, we =
can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn't think =
that they were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the =
general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mandating =
"thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of =
problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the =
network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot =
themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 =
routers).</div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think for MANET, =
as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable =
to consider that different metrics are used.&nbsp;</div><div>Given such =
heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is as robust =
as possible.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div><div>For example,&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><pre =
class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
 If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet =
will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">=
<br></pre></div><div>In such case, we would expect the packet can reach =
the destination, even it doesn't use the same metric as =
others.&nbsp;</div>
=
<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>&nbsp;</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I'd not object =
personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you =
quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.</div><span class=3D""><font=
 color=3D"#888888"><div>
<br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div =
class=3D"h5"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, =
say, a network running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers =
use metric type FOO and the other half the routers use metric type =
BAR?<br>


<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; " a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET =
anywhere from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting =
supported link<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET."<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations =
section, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not =
supported by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can =
participate in the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without =
intersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 =
uses C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the =
applicability statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm =
thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric =
type is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, =
which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
=
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></di=
v>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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I'm not sure why the request, which was nothing to do with me, but as it =
happens, for other reasons, I'm hoping the change can be made.

On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:39, Ulrich Herberg wrote:

> I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet
>=20
> Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place =
on Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has =
sent a formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still =
lists MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.
>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>I'm not sure why the request, which was nothing to do with me, but as it happens, for other reasons, I'm hoping the change can be made.</div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:39, Ulrich Herberg wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:<br><a href="http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet</a><br><br></div>Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.<br>
<br>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
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Hi Ulrich

I expected the DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented with
the WG document, or the DT already amended the document.

AB

On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:

> I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet
>
> Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on
> Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a
> formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists
> MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.
>
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>

--20cf301b65fb1609df04f2a206e9
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Hi Ulrich<div><br></div><div>I expected the DT of DLEP to report its summar=
y, will it be presented with the WG document, or the DT already amended the=
 document.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>AB<br><br>On Monday, February 17, 20=
14, Ulrich Herberg  wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have uploaded the pr=
eliminary agenda to:<br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agend=
a/agenda-89-manet" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/age=
nda/agenda-89-manet</a><br>
<br></div>Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take pl=
ace on Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has =
sent a formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still li=
sts MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.<br>

<br>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>
</blockquote></div>

--20cf301b65fb1609df04f2a206e9--


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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Hi,


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver
> a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to
> deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>

I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe
that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.


>  - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.
>


It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we
probably want "best effort" services.

best

Jiazi


>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>wrote:
>
>>
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I won't say that they are different.
>> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple
>> metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more
>> attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?
>>
>>
>> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that
>> you didn't think that they were different problems.
>>
>> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of
>> mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own
>> set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where
>> the network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot
>> themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2
>> routers).
>>
>
>
> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums,
> it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is
> as robust as possible.
>
> For example,
>
>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
>       routing table entry for the destination.
>
>
> In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even
> it doesn't use the same metric as others.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>>
>> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text
>> that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> Jiazi
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2
>>> (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other
>>> half the routers use metric type BAR?
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dear all,
>>> >
>>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>>> >
>>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its
>>> interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different
>>> set of metrics.
>>> >
>>> > Although it is mentioned that
>>> >
>>> > " a bad
>>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere
>>> from inefficient to
>>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>>> >
>>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I
>>> still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>>> > What I understood is that:
>>> >
>>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other
>>> MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
>>> >
>>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for
>>> example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they
>>> can't be interconnected either.
>>> >
>>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability
>>> statement.
>>> >
>>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm
>>> thinking about some possibilities like:
>>> >
>>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
>>> >
>>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be
>>> supported by all routers.
>>> >
>>> > best
>>> >
>>> > Jiazi
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > manet mailing list
>>> > manet@ietf.org
>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The=
 issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among the t=
hings to be discussed. I&#39;ll just make two points:</div>


<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deli=
ver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure=
 to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>


</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that we shouldn&#39;t use more tha=
n one metric for a packet. I believe that I didn&#39;t mention it in my pre=
vious posts.=A0</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (in=
clude all routers). in fact it&#39;s not hard to think of examples why not.=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s true t=
hat not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we probably w=
ant &quot;best effort&quot; services.=A0</div>

<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><di=
v><div>

<br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM=
, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclaus=
en.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
>



<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div><div>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won&#39;t say that they are different.=A0<=
div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multip=
le metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more a=
ttention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?=A0</div>





<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fair enough, we can =
discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn&#39;t think tha=
t they were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the general sen=
se, I think that there&#39;s nothing much (short of mandating &quot;thou sh=
all always support metric XXX&quot; - which, alas, has its own set of probl=
ems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the network=
 operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in t=
he foot (an example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).</=
div>



</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think for MANET, as=
 we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, it&#39;s reasonable to=
 consider that different metrics are used.=A0</div><div>Given such heteroge=
neous environment, it&#39;s expected that the protocol is as robust as poss=
ible.=A0</div>



<div><br></div><div>For example,=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"=
font-size:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"> If such a router (OLSR wit=
hout MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its destinati=
on, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre style=3D"font-siz=
e:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"><br></pre></div><div>In such case, =
we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it doesn&#39;t u=
se the same metric as others.=A0</div>



<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d not object =
personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you quote, =
I think that it&#39;s pretty clear already.</div><span><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><div>



<br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div><div><br><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
 Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>




<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, say, a network run=
ning OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and=
 the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>





<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; =A0 collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere f=
rom inefficient to<br>
&gt; =A0 non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link=
<br>
&gt; =A0 metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by ot=
her MT-OLSR routers, then it&#39;s unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersectio=
n (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), th=
en they can&#39;t be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I&#39;=
m thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknow=
n, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop-count, w=
hich should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div=
>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a=
 href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>


</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div=
>

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From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>, Stan Ratliff <sratliff@cisco.com>
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AB,

I refer this question to Stan. I assume that the DT or one of the editors
(Stan) will present the updates. A new DLEP revision has been posted on
February 10:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05

Best regards
Ulrich


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <
abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ulrich
>
> I expected the DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented with
> the WG document, or the DT already amended the document.
>
> AB
>
>
> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:
>
>> I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet
>>
>> Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on
>> Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a
>> formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists
>> MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.
>>
>> Best regards
>> Ulrich
>>
>

--001a1133f0b8e47e8804f2a21a51
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>AB,<br><br>I refer this question to Stan. I assume th=
at the DT or one of the editors (Stan) will present the updates. A new DLEP=
 revision has been posted on February 10:<br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-man=
et-dlep-05</a><br>
<br></div>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Abdussalam Ba=
ryun <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">abdussalambaryun@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ulrich<div><br></div><div>I expected the =
DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented with the WG document=
, or the DT already amended the document.=A0</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span=
><div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">AB</font></span><div><=
div class=3D"h5"><br><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg  wrot=
e:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have uploaded the pr=
eliminary agenda to:<br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agend=
a/agenda-89-manet" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/age=
nda/agenda-89-manet</a><br>

<br></div>Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take pl=
ace on Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has =
sent a formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still li=
sts MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.<br>


<br>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 23:27:25 +0000
To: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it prov=
ides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where the best=
 thing to do is to drop a packet.)

The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require singl=
e metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's undesirable to=
 require that you do, my second point) then there is no best effort that wil=
l get you there.

You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the destinat=
ion, based on what routing information for different metrics you have, becau=
se unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's your usua=
l way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternativ=
e - you can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And that ma=
y mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is unaccept=
able. And modifying packets in transit - even just to change a DSCP - may al=
so be unacceptable.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearl=
ove@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among t=
he things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver=
 a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to d=
eliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>=20
> I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe=
 that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.=20
> =20
>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (inclu=
de all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.
>=20
>=20
> It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes w=
e probably want "best effort" services.=20
>=20
> best
>=20
> Jiazi
> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi,=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.o=
rg> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I won't say that they are different.=20
>>>>> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multi=
ple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more a=
ttention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that y=
ou didn't think that they were different problems.
>>>>=20
>>>> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of manda=
ting "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set o=
f problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the n=
etwork operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves=
 in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 routers).
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums=
, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.=20
>>> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is=
 as robust as possible.=20
>>>=20
>>> For example,=20
>>>=20
>>>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet w=
ill never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
>>>       routing table entry for the destination.=20
>>>=20
>>> In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even=
 it doesn't use the same metric as others.=20
>>>=20
>>> best
>>>=20
>>> Jiazi
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the te=
xt that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>>>>=20
>>>>> Jiazi
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen=
.org> wrote:
>>>>>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2=
 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other h=
alf the routers use metric type BAR?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> > Dear all,
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its i=
nteroperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set=
 of metrics.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Although it is mentioned that
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > " a bad
>>>>>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere f=
rom inefficient to
>>>>>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported lin=
k
>>>>>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section=
, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>>>>>> > What I understood is that:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other=
 MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.=

>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (=
for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then t=
hey can't be interconnected either.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicabil=
ity statement.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm=
 thinking about some possibilities like:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, o=
r
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should b=
e supported by all routers.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > best
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Jiazi
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>> > manet mailing list
>>>>>> > manet@ietf.org
>>>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20

--Apple-Mail-AED6423E-813F-4435-9A1F-E69D5B4D33EE
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>No, you didn't mention it. However it'=
s important to establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words for e=
xample, an instance of where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)</div=
><div><br></div><div>The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"?=
 If you require single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (an=
d it's undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is no=
 best effort that will get you there.</div><div><br></div><div>You can't dec=
ide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the destination, based on=
 what routing information for different metrics you have, because unless you=
 do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's your usual way to choo=
se metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you can't=
 let other routers know which metric you are using. And that may mean you en=
d up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is unacceptable. And mod=
ifying packets in transit - even just to change a DSCP - may also be unaccep=
table.</div><div><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (=
iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemo=
syne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div><div><br>On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Ji=
azi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Fe=
b 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlo=
ve@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The i=
ssues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among the thin=
gs to be discussed. I'll just make two points:</div>


<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliv=
er a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure t=
o deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>


</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that we shouldn't use more than one=
 metric for a packet. I believe that I didn't mention it in my previous post=
s.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (inc=
lude all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.</div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It's true that not all=
 topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we probably want "best ef=
fort" services.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>&nbsp;</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><di=
v><div>

<br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 P=
M, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclaus=
en.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=




<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div><div>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won't say that they are different.&nbsp;<div>=
However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple me=
trics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more attenti=
on (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?&nbsp;</div>





<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fair enough, we can d=
iscuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn't think that they=
 were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the general sense, I t=
hink that there's nothing much (short of mandating "thou shall always suppor=
t metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol ca=
n do to guard against a deployment where the network operators are going thr=
ough extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: defi=
ne "C" differently in OLSRv2 routers).</div>



</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think for MANET, as w=
e might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable to consid=
er that different metrics are used.&nbsp;</div><div>Given such heterogeneous=
 environment, it's expected that the protocol is as robust as possible.&nbsp=
;</div>



<div><br></div><div>For example,&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D=
"font-size:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"> If such a router (OLSR wit=
hout MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its destinatio=
n, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre style=3D"font-size=
:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"><br></pre></div><div>In such case, we=
 would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it doesn't use the s=
ame metric as others.&nbsp;</div>



<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>&nbsp;</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I'd not object perso=
nally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you quote, I thin=
k that it's pretty clear already.</div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>



<br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div><div><br><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, =
Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br>




<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, say, a network runnin=
g OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the=
 other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>





<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inter=
operability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set of m=
etrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; " a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere=
 from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported li=
nk<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET."<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I s=
till feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not support=
ed by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in t=
he network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without int=
ersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C,=
 D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability s=
tatement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm thi=
nking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type i=
s unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, whi=
ch should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>=

_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>


</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>=

</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Subject: [manet]  comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Please note that the subject draft has been adopted and it is WG draft.
Comments below,

On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:

> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver
> a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to
> deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>

Do you mean the draft is not doing multi metric (as OLSRv2 without MT)? I
was answered that the protocol will consider it as said in (1) and (2)
below. I reviewed the draft with comments before adoption (3).

 I still think my comments (3) and Jiazi's comments are to be taken in
discussion. Please see (1) and (2) as reasons to adopt the document.


> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.
>

Yes. That is ok.

AB


(1) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15837.html

(2) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15839.html

(3) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15850.html

(4) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15853.html

--20cf300faba9f76cb804f2a2add8
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Please note that the subject draft has been=A0adopted and it is WG draft. C=
omments below,=A0<div><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlov=
e  wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The issues about what is and is no=
t acceptable (or inevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I&#39;ll=
 just make two points:</div>

<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deli=
ver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure=
 to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you mean the draft is not doing multi m=
etric (as OLSRv2 without MT)? I was answered that the protocol=A0will consi=
der it as said in=A0(1) and=A0(2) below. I reviewed the draft with comments=
=A0before adoption (3).=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>=A0I still think my comments (3) and=A0Jiazi&#39;s=A0co=
mments are to be taken=A0in discussion. Please=A0see (1) and (2) as reasons=
 to adopt the document.=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div>
- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (include=
 all routers). in fact it&#39;s not hard to think of examples why not.</div=
></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. That is ok.=A0</div><div><br>

</div><div>AB=A0</div><div><br></div><br><div>(1)=A0<span></span><a href=3D=
"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15837.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15837.htm=
l</a><br>

</div><div><br></div><div>(2)=A0<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive=
/web/manet/current/msg15839.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mai=
l-archive/web/manet/current/msg15839.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>(3)=
=A0<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15850.h=
tml">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15850.html</a></=
div>
<div><br></div><div>(4)=A0<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/m=
anet/current/msg15853.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/curr=
ent/msg15853.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=A0</div>
</div>

--20cf300faba9f76cb804f2a2add8--


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2014 23:59:37 +0000
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References: <B22AE6B4-55C9-424B-948A-CC00CED020B7@gmail.com> <8A789D78-30FE-4924-AE60-B16D687CAC70@thomasclausen.org> <CAN1bDFwgcxVBmRhkXbEy9AJc=tshQjrHwuMiwOrgZ6rQOmjubQ@mail.gmail.com> <5BDEDFE0-D038-4214-8D15-CB4804A1E087@thomasclausen.org> <CAN1bDFyCC1-xqx9-GMtAu2C05q5o8c1bvsY3r+TOXbEXOwxW6w@mail.gmail.com> <48206E14-EAA5-4492-B1B4-AAA49994FA12@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <CADnDZ8-1i07cr0CDM4c-bbojqCN0hGWvke03OzGG2oCiUaRYng@mail.gmail.com>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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As the author of quite a few WG drafts, I really have no need for your =
"Please note" comment.

As for your next point, well, you could read the draft. But it routes =
different packets by different metrics, but each packet by a single =
metric.


On 17 Feb 2014, at 23:40, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:

> Please note that the subject draft has been adopted and it is WG =
draft. Comments below,=20
>=20
> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are =
among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to =
deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. =
Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>=20
> Do you mean the draft is not doing multi metric (as OLSRv2 without =
MT)? I was answered that the protocol will consider it as said in (1) =
and (2) below. I reviewed the draft with comments before adoption (3).=20=

>=20
>  I still think my comments (3) and Jiazi's comments are to be taken in =
discussion. Please see (1) and (2) as reasons to adopt the document.=20
> =20
> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete =
(include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.
>=20
> Yes. That is ok.=20
>=20
> AB=20
>=20
>=20
> (1) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15837.html
>=20
> (2) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15839.html
>=20
> (3) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15850.html
>=20
> (4) http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15853.html
>=20
>=20
> =20


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<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>As the author of quite a few WG drafts, I really have no need for your "Please note" comment.</div><div><br></div><div>As for your next point, well, you could read the draft. But it routes different packets by different metrics, but each packet by a single metric.</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 23:40, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">Please note that the subject draft has been&nbsp;adopted and it is WG draft. Comments below,&nbsp;<div><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove  wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:</div>

<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Do you mean the draft is not doing multi metric (as OLSRv2 without MT)? I was answered that the protocol&nbsp;will consider it as said in&nbsp;(1) and&nbsp;(2) below. I reviewed the draft with comments&nbsp;before adoption (3).&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div><div>&nbsp;I still think my comments (3) and&nbsp;Jiazi's&nbsp;comments are to be taken&nbsp;in discussion. Please&nbsp;see (1) and (2) as reasons to adopt the document.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div>
- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. That is ok.&nbsp;</div><div><br>

</div><div>AB&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><br><div>(1)&nbsp;<span></span><a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15837.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15837.html</a><br>

</div><div><br></div><div>(2)&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15839.html" target="_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15839.html</a></div><div><br></div><div>(3)&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15850.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15850.html</a></div>
<div><br></div><div>(4)&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15853.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg15853.html</a><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</blockquote></div><br></body></html>
--Apple-Mail=_79E0F02B-24F7-42F7-83F2-EB05F79BF250--


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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, Stan Ratliff <sratliff@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [manet] Preliminary MANET agenda
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Thanks Ulrich,

I seen the update but was not sure if I will be asked to accept/review the
DT output before updating the draft or after updating the draft. Please
note that I need an answer from draft editors before the meeting because I
want to review the draft with the DT final report.

Please note that I expect that DT is not part of the WG decisions even if
it has some participants of the WG.

AB

On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:

> AB,
>
> I refer this question to Stan. I assume that the DT or one of the editors
> (Stan) will present the updates. A new DLEP revision has been posted on
> February 10:
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05
>
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <
> abdussalambaryun@gmail.com<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','abdussalambaryun@gmail.com');>
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi Ulrich
>>
>> I expected the DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented
>> with the WG document, or the DT already amended the document.
>>
>> AB
>>
>>
>> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:
>>
>>> I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on
>>> Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a
>>> formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists
>>> MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> Ulrich
>>>
>>
>

--089e01634ed6781c0404f2a2f9bc
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Thanks Ulrich,<div><br></div><div>I seen the update but was not sure if I w=
ill be asked to accept/review=A0the DT output before updating the draft or =
after updating the draft. Please note that I need an answer from draft edit=
ors before the meeting because I want to review the draft with the DT final=
 report.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>Please note that I expect that DT is not part of the WG=
 decisions=A0even if it has some=A0participants of the WG.=A0</div><div><br=
></div><div>AB</div><div><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg  =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>AB,<br><br>I refer thi=
s question to Stan. I assume that the DT or one of the editors (Stan) will =
present the updates. A new DLEP revision has been posted on February 10:<br=
>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05" target=3D"_=
blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05</a><br>
<br></div>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Abdussalam Ba=
ryun <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"javascript:_e(%7B%7D,&#39;cvml&#39;,&=
#39;abdussalambaryun@gmail.com&#39;);" target=3D"_blank">abdussalambaryun@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ulrich<div><br></div><div>I expected the =
DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented with the WG document=
, or the DT already amended the document.=A0</div>

<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div></font></span><div><span><font=
 color=3D"#888888">AB</font></span><div><div><br><br>On Monday, February 17=
, 2014, Ulrich Herberg  wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have uploaded the pr=
eliminary agenda to:<br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agend=
a/agenda-89-manet" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/age=
nda/agenda-89-manet</a><br>


<br></div>Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take pl=
ace on Monday afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has =
sent a formal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still li=
sts MANET on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.<br>



<br>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div>

--089e01634ed6781c0404f2a2f9bc--


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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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>
> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>
>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
>> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver
>> a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to
>> deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>
>
So you mean, more than one metric to route a packet is bad idea.

AB

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<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christ=
opher Dearlove  wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The issues about what is and is no=
t acceptable (or inevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I&#39;ll=
 just make two points:</div>

<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deli=
ver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure=
 to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>
</blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So you=A0mean, more than one =
metric to route a packet is bad idea.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>AB</div>

--20cf30063822588d1204f2a33ca9--


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From: Thomas Heide Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 01:40:20 +0100
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/9cHTtjbuAMyOS8TEPddj5X_KNcQ
Cc: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Yes.=20

--=20
Thomas Heide Clausen
http://www.thomasclausen.org

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for=20
  experiments, and they wander off through equation=20
  after equation, and eventually  build a structure=20
  which has no relation to reality."
 - Nikola Tesla,=20
    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934

> On 18 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 01:20, Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail=
.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>>> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among=
 the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to delive=
r a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to=
 deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>=20
> So you mean, more than one metric to route a packet is bad idea.=20
>=20
> AB
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Yes.&nbsp;<br><br><div>--&nbsp;</div><=
div>Thomas Heide Clausen</div><div><a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org">=
http://www.thomasclausen.org</a></div><div><br></div><div>"Today's scientist=
s have substituted mathematics for&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;experiments, a=
nd they wander off through equation&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;after equati=
on, and eventually &nbsp;build a structure&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;which=
 has no relation to reality."</div><div>&nbsp;- Nikola Tesla,&nbsp;</div><di=
v>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934</div></div>=
<div><br>On 18 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 01:20, Abdussalam Baryun &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com">abdussalambaryun@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove  wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">

<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The issues about what is and is not=
 acceptable (or inevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I'll just m=
ake two points:</div>

<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliv=
er a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure t=
o deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>
</blockquote></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So you&nbsp;mean, more than on=
e metric to route a packet is bad idea.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>AB</d=
iv>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are amon=
g
> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to
> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver.=

> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.

I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose a
metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change
rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.

The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to
the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the
destination.

> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why n=
ot.

I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important
for QoS aware routing.

If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control
traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application
tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everything is fine.

Henning Rogge

--=20
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de


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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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On 02/18/2014 01:20 AM, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>=20
>=20
>     On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>=20
>         The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable)
>         are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points=
:
>         - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric
>         to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail
>         to deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to
>         prevent at all costs.
>=20
>=20
> So you mean, more than one metric to route a packet is bad idea.=20

Normally you don't use MT routing just for fun, you use it to achieve a
goal. I would guess that the routes you get with using different metrics
for the same packet on each hop will not be what you had in mind when
setting up the MT routing.

Henning Rogge

--=20
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de


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--------------ms080507080900060006020702--


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 07:56:32 +0000
To: Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when different ro=
uters are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet. (Which o=
f course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an example.

Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, AC =3D=
 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a packet a=
t A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes by metric 2=
 and sends back to A.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>=
 wrote:
>=20
>> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
>> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to
>> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver.
>> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>=20
> I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose a
> metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change
> rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
>=20
> The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to
> the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the
> destination.
>=20
>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not=
.
>=20
> I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important
> for QoS aware routing.
>=20
> If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control
> traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application
> tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everything is fine.
>=20
> Henning Rogge
>=20
> --=20
> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=C3=BCr
> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
> Fraunhofer Stra=C3=9Fe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 07:58:10 +0000
To: Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/L1WVxihJvu19JuLtc8aPFYnHUtQ
Cc: "<manet@ietf.org>" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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No, this is just plain prohibited. It doesn't work. See example in other pos=
ting.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:58, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>=
 wrote:
>=20
>> On 02/18/2014 01:20 AM, Abdussalam Baryun wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>    On Monday, February 17, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>=20
>>        The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable)
>>        are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>        - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric
>>        to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail
>>        to deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to
>>        prevent at all costs.
>>=20
>>=20
>> So you mean, more than one metric to route a packet is bad idea.
>=20
> Normally you don't use MT routing just for fun, you use it to achieve a
> goal. I would guess that the routes you get with using different metrics
> for the same packet on each hop will not be what you had in mind when
> setting up the MT routing.
>=20
> Henning Rogge
>=20
> --=20
> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=C3=BCr
> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
> Fraunhofer Stra=C3=9Fe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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--20cf3011d975b24d0004f2aa04a4
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On Tuesday, February 18, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:

> That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when different
> routers are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet.
> (Which of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an
> example.


May be Henning is thinking of new method of routing feature that can be
added to the new protocol, as why you have packets sent without containing
information of possible metrics (and other needed info) used for router
awareness.


>
> Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, A=
C =3D
> 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a packe=
t at A
> intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes by metric 2
> and sends back to A.


If B knows that A forwarded the packet by metric 1 it will not send to any
with metric 2 only if it has both metric topologies complete. Could that be
a condition that prevents loops?

AB

>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <javascript:;> (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk <javascript:;> (home)
>
> > On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <
> henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> >> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> >> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are amo=
ng
> >> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
> >> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to
> >> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver=
.
> >> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
> >
> > I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose a
> > metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change
> > rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
> >
> > The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to
> > the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the
> > destination.
> >
> >> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
> >> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why
> not.
> >
> > I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important
> > for QoS aware routing.
> >
> > If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control
> > traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application
> > tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everything is fine.
> >
> > Henning Rogge
> >
> > --
> > Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
> > Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
> > Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
> > Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
> > Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> > mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de <javascript:;>
> http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org <javascript:;>
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <javascript:;>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--20cf3011d975b24d0004f2aa04a4
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<br><br>On Tuesday, February 18, 2014, Christopher Dearlove  wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">That&#39;s easily seen not to be so, looping is =
quite possible when different routers are allowed to use different metrics =
to route the same packet. (Which of course we don&#39;t permit, this is one=
 reason why.) Here&#39;s an example.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>May be Henning is thinking of=A0new method of routing f=
eature=A0that can be added to the new protocol, as why you have packets sen=
t without containing information of possible metrics (and other needed info=
)=A0used for router awareness.=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, AC =
=3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There&#39;s a=
 packet at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes =
by metric 2 and sends back to A.</blockquote>
<div><br></div><div>If B knows that A forwarded the packet by metric 1 it w=
ill not send to any with metric 2 only if it has both metric topologies=A0c=
omplete. Could that be a condition that prevents loops?</div><div><br></div=
>
<div>AB</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;christop=
her.dearlove@gmail.com&#39;)">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>=A0(iPhone)=
<br>
<a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;chris@mn=
emosyne.demon.co.uk&#39;)">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>=A0(home)<br>
<br>
&gt; On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:;" o=
nclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de&#=
39;)">henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are=
 among<br>
&gt;&gt; the things to be discussed. I&#39;ll just make two points:<br>
&gt;&gt; - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to<=
br>
&gt;&gt; deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to del=
iver.<br>
&gt;&gt; Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think the packet would ever loop, even if every router cho=
ose a<br>
&gt; metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change=
<br>
&gt; rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to<=
br>
&gt; the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the<br>
&gt; destination.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete=
<br>
&gt;&gt; (include all routers). in fact it&#39;s not hard to think of examp=
les why not.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important=
<br>
&gt; for QoS aware routing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If I have a &quot;low delay&quot; topology, I do not want my real time=
 control<br>
&gt; traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application=
<br>
&gt; tells me &quot;sorry, no connectivity&quot; than to pretend everything=
 is fine.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr<br>
&gt; Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE<br>
&gt; Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)<br>
&gt; Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany<br>
&gt; Telefon +49 228 9435-961, =A0 Fax +49 228 9435 685<br>
&gt; mailto:<a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &=
#39;henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de&#39;)">henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.d=
e</a> <a href=3D"http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
w.fkie.fraunhofer.de</a><br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;man=
et@ietf.org&#39;)">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"javascript:;" onclick=3D"_e(event, &#39;cvml&#39;, &#39;manet@ie=
tf.org&#39;)">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote>

--20cf3011d975b24d0004f2aa04a4--


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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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The intent, as usual (we're not discussing source routing) is to route pack=
ets unchanged.

Preventing an immediate reversal would stop this simple 3 node loop (though=
 it might not be trivial). But I could construct a bigger example that had =
the same problem where there is no direct reversal. (In fact I can do it wi=
th 4 nodes.)

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Abdussalam Baryun
Sent: 18 February 2014 08:26
To: Christopher Dearlove
Cc: <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-=
02


*** WARNING ***
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ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.


On Tuesday, February 18, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when different r=
outers are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet. (Whic=
h of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an example.

May be Henning is thinking of new method of routing feature that can be add=
ed to the new protocol, as why you have packets sent without containing inf=
ormation of possible metrics (and other needed info) used for router awaren=
ess.


Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, AC =
=3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a pac=
ket at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes by m=
etric 2 and sends back to A.

If B knows that A forwarded the packet by metric 1 it will not send to any =
with metric 2 only if it has both metric topologies complete. Could that be=
 a condition that prevents loops?

AB

--
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com<javascript:;> (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk<javascript:;> (home)

> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de=
<javascript:;>> wrote:
>
>> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
>> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to
>> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver.
>> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>
> I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose a
> metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change
> rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
>
> The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to
> the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the
> destination.
>
>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why no=
t.
>
> I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important
> for QoS aware routing.
>
> If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control
> traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application
> tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everything is fine.
>
> Henning Rogge
>
> --
> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
> Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de<javascript:;> http://www.fkie.fra=
unhofer.de
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org<javascript:;>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">The intent, as usual (we&=
#8217;re not discussing source routing) is to route packets unchanged.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Preventing an immediate r=
eversal would stop this simple 3 node loop (though it might not be trivial)=
. But I could construct a bigger example that had the same
 problem where there is no direct reversal. (In fact I can do it with 4 nod=
es.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Abdussalam Baryun<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 February 2014 08:26<br>
<b>To:</b> Christopher Dearlove<br>
<b>Cc:</b> &lt;manet@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multito=
pology-02<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
On Tuesday, February 18, 2014, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite po=
ssible when different routers are allowed to use different metrics to route=
 the same packet. (Which of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.=
) Here's an example.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">May be Henning is thinking of&nbsp;new method of rou=
ting feature&nbsp;that can be added to the new protocol, as why you have pa=
ckets sent without containing information of possible metrics (and other ne=
eded info)&nbsp;used for router awareness.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, AC =
=3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a pac=
ket at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes by m=
etric 2 and sends back to A.<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If B knows that A forwarded the packet by metric 1 i=
t will not send to any with metric 2 only if it has both metric topologies&=
nbsp;complete. Could that be a condition that prevents loops?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">AB<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"javascript:;">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&nbsp;(iPhone)<b=
r>
<a href=3D"javascript:;">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>&nbsp;(home)<br>
<br>
&gt; On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"javascript:;">h=
enning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are=
 among<br>
&gt;&gt; the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:<br>
&gt;&gt; - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to<=
br>
&gt;&gt; deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to del=
iver.<br>
&gt;&gt; Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs=
.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose =
a<br>
&gt; metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change=
<br>
&gt; rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to<=
br>
&gt; the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the<br>
&gt; destination.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete=
<br>
&gt;&gt; (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples =
why not.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important=
<br>
&gt; for QoS aware routing.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; If I have a &quot;low delay&quot; topology, I do not want my real time=
 control<br>
&gt; traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application=
<br>
&gt; tells me &quot;sorry, no connectivity&quot; than to pretend everything=
 is fine.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr<br>
&gt; Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE<br>
&gt; Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)<br>
&gt; Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany<br>
&gt; Telefon &#43;49 228 9435-961, &nbsp; Fax &#43;49 228 9435 685<br>
&gt; mailto:<a href=3D"javascript:;">henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de</a> <=
a href=3D"http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">
http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
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From nobody Tue Feb 18 01:39:23 2014
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 10:38:56 +0100
Message-ID: <CAGnRvupDsduVcToL9_wyn=GhNJ0q=H+OJVhCx3C9PPWusYg2aw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Maybe we talk about different things but I disagree...

each nodes applies costs to the incoming links with a metric (whatever
it is) and publishes this in Hellos and TCs. It doesn't matter if node
A use a different metric for its incoming links than node B, because
each directional link is only measured by a single node.

In your example A cannot have a different value for the cost "B to C"
than B, because these values are decided by node C, not node A and B.

Henning Rogge

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Christopher Dearlove
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when different=
 routers are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet. (Wh=
ich of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an example.
>
> Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, A=
C =3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a p=
acket at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes by=
 metric 2 and sends back to A.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
>> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.d=
e> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are amon=
g
>>> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to
>>> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver.
>>> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>
>> I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose a
>> metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the change
>> rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
>>
>> The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to
>> the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the
>> destination.
>>
>>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
>>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why n=
ot.
>>
>> I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very important
>> for QoS aware routing.
>>
>> If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control
>> traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the application
>> tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everything is fine.
>>
>> Henning Rogge
>>
>> --
>> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
>> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
>> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
>> Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
>> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
>> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 09:54:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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These are different metric _types_. With different type extensions. Both no=
des have both of them, just in this (disallowed, this is pointing out why) =
scenario each node is just using one type, just different ones. So the scen=
ario (in terms of what the metrics are) is quite possible.

I think you are failing to see what's being discussed, possibly because you=
 are discounting something stupid. The point here is to make that this is s=
tupid clear.

-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194=A0|  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
Sent: 18 February 2014 09:39
To: Christopher Dearlove
Cc: <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-=
02

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Maybe we talk about different things but I disagree...

each nodes applies costs to the incoming links with a metric (whatever it i=
s) and publishes this in Hellos and TCs. It doesn't matter if node A use a =
different metric for its incoming links than node B, because each direction=
al link is only measured by a single node.

In your example A cannot have a different value for the cost "B to C"
than B, because these values are decided by node C, not node A and B.

Henning Rogge

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove=
@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when different=
 routers are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet. (Wh=
ich of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an example.
>
> Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, A=
C =3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a p=
acket at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes by=
 metric 2 and sends back to A.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone) chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk =

> (home)
>
>> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.d=
e> wrote:
>>
>>> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are =

>>> among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to =

>>> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver.
>>> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>
>> I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose =

>> a metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the =

>> change rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
>>
>> The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to =

>> the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the =

>> destination.
>>
>>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete =

>>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why n=
ot.
>>
>> I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very =

>> important for QoS aware routing.
>>
>> If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control =

>> traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the =

>> application tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everything=
 is fine.
>>
>> Henning Rogge
>>
>> --
>> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr =

>> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE =

>> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, =

>> Germany
>> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
>> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

_______________________________________________
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 10:57:24 +0100
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To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Ahh,

that explains my trouble...

Yes, routing the same packet once with metric extension A and on the
next with metric extension B is stupid.

packets jumping between different dijkstra topologies is definitely a
source of routing loops.

Sorry for the noise.

Henning Rogge

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
> These are different metric _types_. With different type extensions. Both =
nodes have both of them, just in this (disallowed, this is pointing out why=
) scenario each node is just using one type, just different ones. So the sc=
enario (in terms of what the metrics are) is quite possible.
>
> I think you are failing to see what's being discussed, possibly because y=
ou are discounting something stupid. The point here is to make that this is=
 stupid clear.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre=
, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
> Sent: 18 February 2014 09:39
> To: Christopher Dearlove
> Cc: <manet@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopolog=
y-02
>
> ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message ori=
ginates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or f=
rom the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach=
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> Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions=
 on reporting suspicious email messages.
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe we talk about different things but I disagree...
>
> each nodes applies costs to the incoming links with a metric (whatever it=
 is) and publishes this in Hellos and TCs. It doesn't matter if node A use =
a different metric for its incoming links than node B, because each directi=
onal link is only measured by a single node.
>
> In your example A cannot have a different value for the cost "B to C"
> than B, because these values are decided by node C, not node A and B.
>
> Henning Rogge
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlo=
ve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when differen=
t routers are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet. (W=
hich of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an example.
>>
>> Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, =
AC =3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a =
packet at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes b=
y metric 2 and sends back to A.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone) chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
>> (home)
>>
>>> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.=
de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are
>>>> among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to
>>>> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver=
.
>>>> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>>
>>> I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router choose
>>> a metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if the
>>> change rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
>>>
>>> The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach to
>>> the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the
>>> destination.
>>>
>>>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
>>>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.
>>>
>>> I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very
>>> important for QoS aware routing.
>>>
>>> If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control
>>> traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the
>>> application tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everythin=
g is fine.
>>>
>>> Henning Rogge
>>>
>>> --
>>> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
>>> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
>>> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,
>>> Germany
>>> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
>>> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
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To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 10:24:41 +0000
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Cc: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, "<manet@ietf.org>" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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OK, so we're clear on that.

Just to recap, the points I wanted to make are
- Any one packet is only routed by one metric/topology. (That's just to est=
ablish an underlying point.)
- Topologies may not be complete. This could happen due to circumstances, b=
ut it can also happen by design.
- Some packets may not be deliverable, the best thing you can do is throw t=
hem away.

Not the end of the story of course. Some networks may be managed to make th=
e throwing away very uncommon. In others it may be routine.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194=A0|  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----
From: Henning Rogge [mailto:hrogge@gmail.com]=20
Sent: 18 February 2014 09:57
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Christopher Dearlove; <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-=
02

----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi=
nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro=
m the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme=
nts or reply.
Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions o=
n reporting suspicious email messages.
--------------------------------------------------------

Ahh,

that explains my trouble...

Yes, routing the same packet once with metric extension A and on the next w=
ith metric extension B is stupid.

packets jumping between different dijkstra topologies is definitely a sourc=
e of routing loops.

Sorry for the noise.

Henning Rogge

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 10:54 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlov=
e@baesystems.com> wrote:
> These are different metric _types_. With different type extensions. Both =
nodes have both of them, just in this (disallowed, this is pointing out why=
) scenario each node is just using one type, just different ones. So the sc=
enario (in terms of what the metrics are) is quite possible.
>
> I think you are failing to see what's being discussed, possibly because y=
ou are discounting something stupid. The point here is to make that this is=
 stupid clear.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group Communications,=20
> Networks and Image Analysis Capability BAE Systems Advanced Technology=20
> Centre West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124=20
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace=20
> Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK Registered in England & Wales=20
> No: 1996687
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
> Sent: 18 February 2014 09:39
> To: Christopher Dearlove
> Cc: <manet@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [manet] comments on=20
> draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
>
> ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message ori=
ginates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or f=
rom the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach=
ments or reply.
> Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions=
 on reporting suspicious email messages.
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> Maybe we talk about different things but I disagree...
>
> each nodes applies costs to the incoming links with a metric (whatever it=
 is) and publishes this in Hellos and TCs. It doesn't matter if node A use =
a different metric for its incoming links than node B, because each directi=
onal link is only measured by a single node.
>
> In your example A cannot have a different value for the cost "B to C"
> than B, because these values are decided by node C, not node A and B.
>
> Henning Rogge
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 8:56 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlo=
ve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> That's easily seen not to be so, looping is quite possible when differen=
t routers are allowed to use different metrics to route the same packet. (W=
hich of course we don't permit, this is one reason why.) Here's an example.
>>
>> Put A, B, C in a triangle. Metric type 1 has values AB =3D 1, BC =3D 1, =
AC =3D 3. Metric type 2 has values BA =3D 1, BC =3D 3, AC =3D 1. There's a =
packet at A intended for C. A routes by metric 1 and sends to B. B routes b=
y metric 2 and sends back to A.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone) chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
>> (home)
>>
>>> On 18 Feb 2014, at 06:55, Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.=
de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/17/2014 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are=20
>>>> among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to=20
>>>> deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver=
.
>>>> Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>>
>>> I don't think the packet would ever loop, even if every router=20
>>> choose a metric of its own to route the packet. Loops only happen if=20
>>> the change rate of the metric exceeds the rate of TC distribution.
>>>
>>> The Dijkstra Algorithm does not care what kind of costs you attach=20
>>> to the links, it will always give you a consistent path towards the=20
>>> destination.
>>>
>>>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete=20
>>>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.
>>>
>>> I completely agree with this, incomplete topologies are very=20
>>> important for QoS aware routing.
>>>
>>> If I have a "low delay" topology, I do not want my real time control=20
>>> traffic go over a geostationary satellite link. Better the=20
>>> application tells me "sorry, no connectivity" than to pretend everythin=
g is fine.
>>>
>>> Henning Rogge
>>>
>>> --
>>> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr=20
>>> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE=20
>>> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg,=20
>>> Germany
>>> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
>>> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de=20
>>> http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended=20
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended=20
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or=20
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>


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Abdussalam,

The design team inputs drove the changes that culminated in DLEP-05. That b=
eing said, I'm hopeful that there will continue to be active discussion and=
 debate on this mailing list about DLEP.

Regards,
Stan

On Feb 17, 2014, at 5:59 PM, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name<mailto:ulr=
ich@herberg.name>> wrote:

AB,

I refer this question to Stan. I assume that the DT or one of the editors (=
Stan) will present the updates. A new DLEP revision has been posted on Febr=
uary 10:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05

Best regards
Ulrich


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.=
com<mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Ulrich

I expected the DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented with =
the WG document, or the DT already amended the document.

AB


On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:
I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet

Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on Mon=
day afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a for=
mal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists MANET =
on Wednesday. I have sent an email to Adrian to clarify.

Best regards
Ulrich



--_000_89B13A714ABF42D781164B20AC4E5279ciscocom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; ">
Abdussalam,&nbsp;
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The design team inputs drove the changes that culminated in DLEP-05. T=
hat being said, I'm hopeful that there will continue to be active discussio=
n and debate on this mailing list about DLEP.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Stan</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 5:59 PM, Ulrich Herberg &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ulri=
ch@herberg.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>AB,<br>
<br>
I refer this question to Stan. I assume that the DT or one of the editors (=
Stan) will present the updates. A new DLEP revision has been posted on Febr=
uary 10:<br>
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-05</a><br>
<br>
</div>
Best regards<br>
Ulrich<br>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 2:53 PM, Abdussalam Bary=
un <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">abdussa=
lambaryun@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Ulrich
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I expected the DT of DLEP to report its summary, will it be presented =
with the WG document, or the DT already amended the document.&nbsp;</div>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
</font></span>
<div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">AB</font></span>
<div>
<div class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet</a><=
br>
<br>
</div>
Unfortunately, I am unsure whether the MANET meeting will take place on Mon=
day afternoon (3.20pm) or on Wednesday morning (9am). Adrian has sent a for=
mal request to change it to Monday, but the final agenda still lists MANET =
on Wednesday. I have sent an email
 to Adrian to clarify.<br>
<br>
Best regards<br>
Ulrich<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_89B13A714ABF42D781164B20AC4E5279ciscocom_--


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On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>=20
> Thanks a lot for your comments. A few replies:
>=20
> - The ODMRP paper referenced is from Mobile Networks and Application =
Journal, Vol.7 issue 6 from Dec. 2002., pp 441-453. The FGMP paper is =
from Cluster Computing June 1998, vol.1, issue 2, pp 187-196.
>=20
> - As for SMF vs ODMRP, I do not have definitive results pointing to =
the limit where one becomes more efficient than the other. However the =
idea of taking advantage of the relay set built by SMF should work to =
disseminate Join Queries, the same way it can be used for unicast =
routing protocols such as AODV. I believe it should lead to something =
relatively close to Elastic Multicast actually, except for the periodic =
flooding of Join Queries.

SMF is also somewhat of a building block with different modes (CDS, =
elastic multicast) and the potential to build group-specific behavior on =
top of it basic profile.  =20

One might ask more taxonomy based questions rather than SMF vs. ODMRP. =
Like ODMRP vs. classical flooding  or vs. CDS-flooding without group =
information (modes of SMF behavior) and then one has to also consider =
the traffic pattern dynamics and group distribution as in past studies =
of flood n=92 prune  vs. core based multicast.  Likely no one size fits =
all.

I personally like the ideas behind ODMRP as it covers a particular good =
taxonomy area.  Unfortunately the group scope back its work on multicast =
in the past to make progress.  I personally feel the time is right to =
rework some of these issues. =20

If modernized with newer capabilities such as multiple interfaces,IPv6 =
support (one the reasons to reinvigorate older design) It will be a good =
area of engineering work in my opinion.

It would be nice to know more about any progress related to any =
potential open reference implementations.

-Joe


>=20
> - The idea behind ODMRP-ASYM could also very probably apply to a =
protocol such as Elastic Multicast: I think that routing the EM-ACK =
packet around the unidirectional link could work. The only issue would =
be that the relay set selection only uses bidirectional links as well, =
which is something that ODMRP (with or without SMF) would not have to =
deal with.
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Axel
>=20
> Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 18:16, Brian Adamson =
<brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil> a =E9crit :
>=20
>> The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept =
we presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM =
version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well =
more of a graft with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of =
the SMF flooding mesh alive on a group-specific basis).  With Elastic =
Multicast, there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF =
flooding behavior where there are high dynamics.  I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP.  As with =
other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances.  It =
would be interesting to have implementations of both available for =
comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.
>>=20
>> Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was =
initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic Multicast =
and there was some discussion consideration towards instantiating  ODMRP =
on top of the SMF flooding mesh.  Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't =
accessible yet, I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be =
worth consideration.  With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.
>>=20
>> Given some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast =
within MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various =
multicast routing requirements for MANET including group management, =
gateway interaction with other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected =
application/transport protocol needs and behaviors.  There may be some =
common aspects (e.g. group membership mechanisms, management, etc) =
regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, =
proactive, etc)
>>=20
>>=20
>> cheers,
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for SMF =
or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well just =
use the other all the time.
>>> =20
>>> --
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>>> =20
>>> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
>>> Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
>>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>>> Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
>>> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> *** WARNING ***
>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from =
an external partner or the internet.
>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.
>>> =20
>>> Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" =
and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than =
just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.
>>> =20
>>> [While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.
>>> =20
>>> Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D
>>> =20
>>> Thomas
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> --
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>>> =20
>>> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
>>> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
>>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>>> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
>>> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> *** WARNING ***
>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from =
an external partner or the internet.
>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>>=20
>>> Chris,
>>> =20
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone =
with experience of both? Published results?
>>> =20
>>> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
>>> =20
>>> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
>>> =20
>>> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
>>> =20
>>> Cheers,
>>> =20
>>> Thomas
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> --
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>>> =20
>>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin =
de Verdi=E8re
>>> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
>>> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
>>> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
>>> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> *** WARNING ***
>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from =
an external partner or the internet.
>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>>=20
>>> Dear all,
>>> =20
>>> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>>> =20
>>> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension =
of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>>> =20
>>> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.
>>> =20
>>> Thank you,
>>> =20
>>> Axel
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, =
"William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted =
to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>=20
>>> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>>> Revision:         00
>>> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) =
for Ad Hoc Networks
>>> Document date:          2014-02-14
>>> Group:             Individual Submission
>>> Pages:              29
>>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>>> Htmlized:       =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a =
subset
>>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>=20
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--Apple-Mail=_41C38943-D7D2-4FE2-88CE-55835528ED24
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div><br></div><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:00 =
PM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
all,<div><br></div><div>Thanks a lot for your comments. A few =
replies:</div><div><br></div><div>- The ODMRP paper referenced is from =
Mobile Networks and Application Journal, Vol.7 issue 6 from Dec. 2002., =
pp 441-453. The FGMP paper is from Cluster Computing June 1998, vol.1, =
issue 2, pp 187-196.</div><div><br></div><div>- As for SMF vs ODMRP, I =
do not have definitive results pointing to the limit where one becomes =
more efficient than the other. However the idea of taking advantage of =
the relay set built by SMF should work to disseminate Join Queries, the =
same way it can be used for unicast routing protocols such as AODV. I =
believe it should lead to something relatively close to Elastic =
Multicast actually, except for the periodic flooding of Join =
Queries.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>SMF is also somewhat of =
a building block with different modes (CDS, elastic multicast) and the =
potential to build group-specific behavior on top of it basic profile. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>One might ask more taxonomy based =
questions rather than SMF vs. ODMRP. Like ODMRP vs. classical flooding =
&nbsp;or vs. CDS-flooding without group information (modes of SMF =
behavior) and then one has to also consider the traffic pattern dynamics =
and group distribution as in past studies of flood n=92 prune &nbsp;vs. =
core based multicast. &nbsp;Likely no one size fits =
all.</div><div><br></div><div>I personally like the ideas behind ODMRP =
as it covers a particular good taxonomy area. &nbsp;Unfortunately the =
group scope back its work on multicast in the past to make progress. =
&nbsp;I personally feel the time is right to rework some of these =
issues. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>If modernized with newer =
capabilities such as multiple interfaces,IPv6 support (one the reasons =
to reinvigorate older design) It will be a good area of engineering work =
in my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>It would be nice to know more =
about any progress related to any potential open reference =
implementations.</div><div><br></div><div>-Joe</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div><br></div><div>- The idea behind ODMRP-ASYM =
could also very probably apply to a protocol such as Elastic Multicast: =
I think that routing the EM-ACK packet around the unidirectional link =
could work. The only issue would be that the relay set selection only =
uses bidirectional links as well, which is something that ODMRP (with or =
without SMF) would not have to deal =
with.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div><d=
iv><br><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 18:16, Brian Adamson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil">brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil</a>&=
gt; a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><base href=3D"x-msg://190/"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The Elastic Multicast =
(draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we presented at the last =
IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM version) with respect to =
them both being a form of flood and prune (well more of a graft with =
"downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of the SMF flooding =
mesh alive on a group-specific basis). &nbsp;With Elastic Multicast, =
there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF flooding =
behavior where there are high dynamics. &nbsp;I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP. &nbsp;As =
with other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances. =
&nbsp;It would be interesting to have implementations of both available =
for comparison and exploration of these =
tradeoffs.<div><br></div><div>Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and =
the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was initiated under the same ONR-sponsored =
effort as the Elastic Multicast and there was some discussion =
consideration towards instantiating &nbsp;ODMRP on top of the SMF =
flooding mesh. &nbsp;Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, =
I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be worth =
consideration. &nbsp;With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.</div><div><br></div><div>Given some potential =
interest in addressing group-specific multicast within MANET, it may be =
worthwhile to outline some of the various multicast routing requirements =
for MANET including group management, gateway interaction with other =
routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected application/transport protocol =
needs and behaviors. &nbsp;There may be some common aspects (e.g. group =
membership mechanisms, management, etc) regardless of the specific =
routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, proactive, =
etc)<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Brian</div><div><br><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: inherit; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad =
result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you =
might as well just use the other all the =
time.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">BAE =
Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box =
87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen =
[mailto:thomas@<a href=3D"http://thomasclausen.org/" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
16:00<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; "><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red; ">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; ">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if =
and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] =
flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) =
reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Absolutely. To =
quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "maintaining =
the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flooding. =
this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Obvious limiting cases are =
everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast =
group.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes, =
everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting =
cases :D<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Thomas Clausen [<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with =
SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; =
gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>. =
Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it =
can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">=C0:<span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "William Su" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span=
></a><br>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><br>=
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br><br>=
<br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol =
(ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad =
hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, =
rather than a conventional tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme =
and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of =
nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). =
&nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically =
build routes and maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. =
&nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks =
with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, =
topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is =
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Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2014 16:37:02 +0100
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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Hi,


On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it
> provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where the
> best thing to do is to drop a packet.)
>

agree.


>
> The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require
> single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's
> undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is no best
> effort that will get you there.
>

I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:

  -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not
considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.

  -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but if
not, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way (best
effort).

Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.
But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect the
decision of the WG.

best

Jiazi




>
> You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the
> destination, based on what routing information for different metrics you
> have, because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if
> that's your usual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply
> to an alternative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are
> using. And that may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've
> agreed is unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to
> change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
>> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver
>> a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to
>> deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>
>
> I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe
> that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.
>
>
>>  - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
>> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.
>>
>
>
> It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes
> we probably want "best effort" services.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I won't say that they are different.
>>> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as
>>> multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying
>>> more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?
>>>
>>>
>>> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that
>>> you didn't think that they were different problems.
>>>
>>> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of
>>> mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own
>>> set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where
>>> the network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot
>>> themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2
>>> routers).
>>>
>>
>>
>> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums,
>> it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
>> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is
>> as robust as possible.
>>
>> For example,
>>
>>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
>>       routing table entry for the destination.
>>
>>
>> In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even
>> it doesn't use the same metric as others.
>>
>> best
>>
>> Jiazi
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the
>>> text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> Jiazi
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <
>>> thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2
>>>> (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other
>>>> half the routers use metric type BAR?
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Dear all,
>>>> >
>>>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>>>> >
>>>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its
>>>> interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different
>>>> set of metrics.
>>>> >
>>>> > Although it is mentioned that
>>>> >
>>>> > " a bad
>>>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere
>>>> from inefficient to
>>>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>>>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>>>> >
>>>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section,
>>>> I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>>>> > What I understood is that:
>>>> >
>>>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other
>>>> MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
>>>> >
>>>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection
>>>> (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then
>>>> they can't be interconnected either.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the
>>>> applicability statement.
>>>> >
>>>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm
>>>> thinking about some possibilities like:
>>>> >
>>>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
>>>> >
>>>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be
>>>> supported by all routers.
>>>> >
>>>> > best
>>>> >
>>>> > Jiazi
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > manet mailing list
>>>> > manet@ietf.org
>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>No, you didn&#39;t me=
ntion it. However it&#39;s important to establish. (And it provides, as I i=
ndicated by the words for example, an instance of where the best thing to d=
o is to drop a packet.)</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>agree.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>The question the=
n is what do you mean by &quot;best effort&quot;? If you require single met=
ric routes, and you don&#39;t have all the metrics (and it&#39;s undesirabl=
e to require that you do, my second point) then there is no best effort tha=
t will get you there.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think depending on the application=
s, there are two possibilities:</div><div><br></div><div>=A0 - =A0 If the r=
outers couldn&#39;t support the designated metric, then it&#39;s not consid=
ered - because it probably won&#39;t be able to provide desired QoS.=A0</di=
v>

<div><br></div><div>=A0 - =A0 It&#39;s preferred to build routes using the =
metric required - but if not, we still want to have the packet delivered in=
 certain other way (best effort).=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Personally, I=
 think we should provide the second possibility.=A0</div>

<div>But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I&#39;ll respec=
t the decision of the WG.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></=
div><div>Jiazi</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>You can&#39;t decide at the origin to=
 use a metric that gets you to the destination, based on what routing infor=
mation for different metrics you have, because unless you do something like=
 modify the packet DSCP - if that&#39;s your usual way to choose metric, if=
 not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you can&#39;t let oth=
er routers know which metric you are using. And that may mean you end up us=
ing more than one metric, which we&#39;ve agreed is unacceptable. And modif=
ying packets in transit - even just to change a DSCP - may also be unaccept=
able.</div>

<div><br>-- =A0<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher Dearlove</div=
><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">c=
hristopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
s@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> =
(home)</div>

</font></span></div><div><div><div><br>On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">

Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christop=
her.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>




<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The=
 issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among the t=
hings to be discussed. I&#39;ll just make two points:</div>




<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deli=
ver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure=
 to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div></div>




</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that we shouldn&#39;t use more tha=
n one metric for a packet. I believe that I didn&#39;t mention it in my pre=
vious posts.=A0</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (in=
clude all routers). in fact it&#39;s not hard to think of examples why not.=
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s true t=
hat not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we probably w=
ant &quot;best effort&quot; services.=A0</div>



<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><di=
v><div>



<br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM=
, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclaus=
en.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
>





<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div><div>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won&#39;t say that they are different.=A0<=
div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multip=
le metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more a=
ttention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?=A0</div>







<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fair enough, we can =
discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn&#39;t think tha=
t they were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the general sen=
se, I think that there&#39;s nothing much (short of mandating &quot;thou sh=
all always support metric XXX&quot; - which, alas, has its own set of probl=
ems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the network=
 operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in t=
he foot (an example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).</=
div>





</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think for MANET, as=
 we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, it&#39;s reasonable to=
 consider that different metrics are used.=A0</div><div>Given such heteroge=
neous environment, it&#39;s expected that the protocol is as robust as poss=
ible.=A0</div>





<div><br></div><div>For example,=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"=
font-size:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"> If such a router (OLSR wit=
hout MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its destinati=
on, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre style=3D"font-siz=
e:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"><br></pre></div><div>In such case, =
we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it doesn&#39;t u=
se the same metric as others.=A0</div>





<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I&#39;d not object =
personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you quote, =
I think that it&#39;s pretty clear already.</div><span><font color=3D"#8888=
88"><div>





<br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div><div><br><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon,=
 Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>






<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, say, a network run=
ning OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and=
 the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>







<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; =A0 collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere f=
rom inefficient to<br>
&gt; =A0 non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link=
<br>
&gt; =A0 metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by ot=
her MT-OLSR routers, then it&#39;s unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersectio=
n (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), th=
en they can&#39;t be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I&#39;=
m thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknow=
n, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop-count, w=
hich should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div=
>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a=
 href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>




</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div=
>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
> No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And =
it provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of =
where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)
>=20
> agree.
> =20
>=20
> The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require =
single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's =
undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is no =
best effort that will get you there.
>=20
> I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:
>=20
>   -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's =
not considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired =
QoS.=20
>=20
>   -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but =
if not, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way =
(best effort).=20
>=20
> Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.=20
> But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect =
the decision of the WG.=20
>=20

I think that we should be careful not to restrict unnecessarily.

If we do *not* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" =
(where "X" may be "hop count"), that doesn't preclude that you deploy a =
network, wherein the requirement for participation is for all devices to =
be "provisioned with hop-count metrics", but it is also encouraged - and =
even expected - for a router to support some better metrics also. =
Ensuring that such a requirement is met would be part of the same =
provisioning process that you go through to get cryptographic material =
to the routers for message authentication, for example, and could even =
be made a prerequisite for a router to get such material ;)

If we *do* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" =
(where "X" may be "hop count"), then it'd technically be non-conformant =
to build a network which doesn't -- and I want to be able to build such =
a network, since (in some cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no =
path.=20

For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to try to send data =
through the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the pathological =
example here will be the well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent =
at a lower datarate than unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route =
to Host" immediately, than wait for the inevitable timeout..

Now, some might say "then make default metric X to be something =
different from hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord =
("smorgadsbord" for those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of =
metrics to choose from "out there", and choosing one would be a rathole =
worth (at least) a decade of discussions...discussions, that won't bring =
us any closer to reaching any agreement: different deployments have =
different requirements, and different media exhibit different =
characteristics.

So, in summary=20

	o	Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use =
metric will actually restrict some scenarios that I consider to be =
important.=20

	o	Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use =
metric (the current approach) does not prevent anyone from making=20
		that an additional requirement in a deployment.

	o	Agreeing on a "good default metric" is a rat-hole I =
don't think we should drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.

Bottom line:

	o	Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: they =
will hurt, but they won't help.

Cheerios,

Thomas

> best
>=20
> Jiazi
>=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the =
destination, based on what routing information for different metrics you =
have, because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if =
that's your usual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would =
apply to an alternative - you can't let other routers know which metric =
you are using. And that may mean you end up using more than one metric, =
which we've agreed is unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - =
even just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.
>=20
> -- =20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>=20
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi,=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are =
among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to =
deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. =
Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>=20
>> I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I =
believe that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.=20
>> =20
>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete =
(include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.
>>=20
>>=20
>> It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, =
sometimes we probably want "best effort" services.=20
>>=20
>> best
>>=20
>> Jiazi
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi,=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> I won't say that they are different.=20
>>>> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as =
multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to =
paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this =
issue)?=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure =
that you didn't think that they were different problems.
>>>=20
>>> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of =
mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its =
own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a =
deployment where the network operators are going through extraordinary =
lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" =
differently in OLSRv2 routers).
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of =
interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics =
are used.=20
>>> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the =
protocol is as robust as possible.=20
>>>=20
>>> For example,=20
>>>=20
>>>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the =
packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a =
suitable
>>>       routing table entry for the destination.=20
>>>=20
>>> In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, =
even it doesn't use the same metric as others.=20
>>>=20
>>> best
>>>=20
>>> Jiazi
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the =
text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>>>=20
>>> Thomas
>>>=20
>>>> Jiazi
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running =
OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and =
the other half the routers use metric type BAR?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>>>>=20
>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> > Dear all,
>>>> >
>>>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>>>> >
>>>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.
>>>> >
>>>> > Although it is mentioned that
>>>> >
>>>> > " a bad
>>>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET =
anywhere from inefficient to
>>>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported =
link
>>>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>>>> >
>>>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations =
section, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>>>> > What I understood is that:
>>>> >
>>>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by =
other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.
>>>> >
>>>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection =
(for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), =
then they can't be interconnected either.
>>>> >
>>>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the =
applicability statement.
>>>> >
>>>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. =
I'm thinking about some possibilities like:
>>>> >
>>>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is =
unknown, or
>>>> >
>>>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should =
be supported by all routers.
>>>> >
>>>> > best
>>>> >
>>>> > Jiazi
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > manet mailing list
>>>> > manet@ietf.org
>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><br><div><div>On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 18, =
2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: =
auto;"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>No, you didn't mention it. However it's =
important to establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words =
for example, an instance of where the best thing to do is to drop a =
packet.)</div>

=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>agree.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: =
auto;"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>The question then is what =
do you mean by "best effort"? If you require single metric routes, and =
you don't have all the metrics (and it's undesirable to require that you =
do, my second point) then there is no best effort that will get you =
there.</div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think depending on the =
applications, there are two =
possibilities:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers =
couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not considered - =
because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.&nbsp;</div>

<div><br></div><div>&nbsp; - &nbsp; It's preferred to build routes using =
the metric required - but if not, we still want to have the packet =
delivered in certain other way (best =
effort).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Personally, I think we should =
provide the second possibility.&nbsp;</div>

<div>But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect =
the decision of the =
WG.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>I think that we should be careful not to restrict =
unnecessarily.</div><div><br></div><div>If we do *not* stipulate in the =
spec "you MUST support metric X always" (where "X" may be "hop count"), =
that doesn't preclude that you deploy a network, wherein the requirement =
for participation is for all devices to be "provisioned with hop-count =
metrics", but it is also encouraged - and even expected - for a router =
to support some better metrics also. Ensuring that such a requirement is =
met would be part of the same provisioning process that you go through =
to get cryptographic material to the routers for message authentication, =
for example, and could even be made a prerequisite for a router to get =
such material ;)</div><div><br></div><div>If we *do* stipulate in the =
spec "you MUST support metric X always" (where "X" may be "hop count"), =
then it'd technically be non-conformant to build a network which doesn't =
-- and I want to be able to build such a network, since (in some cases) =
a hop-count-path will be worse than no =
path.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For example: it'll be a futile =
waste of battery to try to send data through the path discovered using =
the X-metric -- and, the pathological example here will be the =
well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent at a lower datarate than =
unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route to Host" immediately, =
than wait for the inevitable timeout..</div><div><br></div><div>Now, =
some might say "then make default metric X to be something different =
from hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord ("smorgadsbord" =
for those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of metrics to choose =
from "out there", and choosing one would be a rathole worth (at least) a =
decade of discussions...discussions, that won't bring us any closer to =
reaching any agreement: different deployments have different =
requirements, and different media exhibit different =
characteristics.</div><div><br></div><div>So, in =
summary&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Specifying a =
mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will actually restrict =
some scenarios that I consider to be =
important.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Not specifying a =
mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the current approach) =
does not prevent anyone from making&nbsp;</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>that an additional requirement in a =
deployment.</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Agreeing on a "good default =
metric" is a rat-hole I don't think we should drag ourselves into - it's =
deployment specific.</div><div><br></div><div>Bottom =
line:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Restrictions of that sort should =
not be imposed: they will hurt, but they won't =
help.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheerios,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</=
div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>You can't decide at the origin to =
use a metric that gets you to the destination, based on what routing =
information for different metrics you have, because unless you do =
something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's your usual way to =
choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - =
you can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And that =
may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is =
unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to change a =
DSCP - may also be unacceptable.</div>

<div><br>-- &nbsp;<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher =
Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> =
(iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div>

</font></span></div><div><div><br>On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">

Hi,&nbsp;<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher =
Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>




<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>The issues about what is and is not =
acceptable (or inevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I'll =
just make two points:</div>




<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to =
deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. =
Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all =
costs.</div></div>




</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that we shouldn't use more than =
one metric for a packet. I believe that I didn't mention it in my =
previous posts.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div>- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete =
(include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It's =
true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we =
probably want "best effort" services.&nbsp;</div>



=
<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>&nbsp;</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>



<br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:</div>
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, =
2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>





<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><div><div><div>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won't say that they are =
different.&nbsp;<div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. =
But as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think =
it worth to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous =
discussions on this issue)?&nbsp;</div>







<div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>Fair enough, we =
can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you didn't think =
that they were different problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the =
general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mandating =
"thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of =
problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the =
network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot =
themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 =
routers).</div>





</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I think for MANET, =
as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable =
to consider that different metrics are used.&nbsp;</div><div>Given such =
heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is as robust =
as possible.&nbsp;</div>





<div><br></div><div>For example,&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><pre =
style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"> If such a =
router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet will never =
reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre =
style=3D"font-size:1em;margin-bottom:0px;margin-top:0px"><br></pre></div><=
div>In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, =
even it doesn't use the same metric as others.&nbsp;</div>





=
<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>&nbsp;</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><br></div><div>I'd not object =
personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you =
quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.</div><span><font =
color=3D"#888888"><div>





<br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Jiazi</div>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>






<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">How is that problem any different than, =
say, a network running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers =
use metric type FOO and the other half the routers use metric type =
BAR?<br>







<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; " a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET =
anywhere from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting =
supported link<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET."<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations =
section, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not =
supported by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can =
participate in the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without =
intersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 =
uses C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the =
applicability statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm =
thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric =
type is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, =
which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div>&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing =
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target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>




</blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing =
list<br><a =
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I should add two things here....

On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:57, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org> =
wrote:

>=20
> On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi,=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And =
it provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of =
where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)
>>=20
>> agree.
>> =20
>>=20
>> The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you =
require single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and =
it's undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is =
no best effort that will get you there.
>>=20
>> I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:
>>=20
>>   -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then =
it's not considered - because it probably won't be able to provide =
desired QoS.=20
>>=20
>>   -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but =
if not, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way =
(best effort).=20
>>=20
>> Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.=20
>> But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect =
the decision of the WG.=20
>>=20
>=20
> I think that we should be careful not to restrict unnecessarily.
>=20
> If we do *not* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X =
always" (where "X" may be "hop count"), that doesn't preclude that you =
deploy a network, wherein the requirement for participation is for all =
devices to be "provisioned with hop-count metrics", but it is also =
encouraged - and even expected - for a router to support some better =
metrics also. Ensuring that such a requirement is met would be part of =
the same provisioning process that you go through to get cryptographic =
material to the routers for message authentication, for example, and =
could even be made a prerequisite for a router to get such material ;)
>=20
> If we *do* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" =
(where "X" may be "hop count"), then it'd technically be non-conformant =
to build a network which doesn't -- and I want to be able to build such =
a network, since (in some cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no =
path.=20
>=20
> For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to try to send data =
through the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the pathological =
example here will be the well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent =
at a lower datarate than unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route =
to Host" immediately, than wait for the inevitable timeout..
>=20
> Now, some might say "then make default metric X to be something =
different from hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord =
("smorgadsbord" for those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of =
metrics to choose from "out there", and choosing one would be a rathole =
worth (at least) a decade of discussions...discussions, that won't bring =
us any closer to reaching any agreement: different deployments have =
different requirements, and different media exhibit different =
characteristics.
>=20
> So, in summary=20
>=20
> 	o	Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use =
metric will actually restrict some scenarios that I consider to be =
important.=20
>=20
> 	o	Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use =
metric (the current approach) does not prevent anyone from making=20
> 		that an additional requirement in a deployment.
>=20
> 	o	Agreeing on a "good default metric" is a rat-hole I =
don't think we should drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.
>=20
> Bottom line:
>=20
> 	o	Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: they =
will hurt, but they won't help.
>=20

As it turns out that specific metrics is found to be particularly =
beneficial, in practice, then the right approach is to:

	o	Write up a specification, documenting that metric, =
making the necessary IANA reservations,=20
		stipulating how it is calculated, etc. - like Henning is =
doing with the ETT-metric - for publication
		as an RFC

If it turns out that for a specific class of deployments, a specific set =
of metrics are preferred/recommended/found to be perfect, then the right =
approach is to:

	o	Write up a specification documenting exactly that - a =
sort of "profile" - which can (IIRC) attain even
		std. track and therefore be normative in the "if you =
deploy a network of this class, then you MUST=20
		use these metrics (and, presumably, other things). Of =
course, caveating that by a sufficiently precise
		description of the class of deployments where it =
applies.

Best,

Thomas

> Cheerios,
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>> best
>>=20
>> Jiazi
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the =
destination, based on what routing information for different metrics you =
have, because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if =
that's your usual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would =
apply to an alternative - you can't let other routers know which metric =
you are using. And that may mean you end up using more than one metric, =
which we've agreed is unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - =
even just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.
>>=20
>> -- =20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>=20
>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi,=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are =
among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>>> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to =
deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. =
Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>>>=20
>>> I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I =
believe that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.=20
>>> =20
>>> - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete =
(include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, =
sometimes we probably want "best effort" services.=20
>>>=20
>>> best
>>>=20
>>> Jiazi
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> Hi,=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> I won't say that they are different.=20
>>>>> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as =
multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to =
paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this =
issue)?=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure =
that you didn't think that they were different problems.
>>>>=20
>>>> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of =
mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its =
own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a =
deployment where the network operators are going through extraordinary =
lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" =
differently in OLSRv2 routers).
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of =
interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics =
are used.=20
>>>> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the =
protocol is as robust as possible.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> For example,=20
>>>>=20
>>>>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the =
packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a =
suitable
>>>>       routing table entry for the destination.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, =
even it doesn't use the same metric as others.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> best
>>>>=20
>>>> Jiazi
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to =
the text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>>>>=20
>>>>> Jiazi
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen =
<thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>>>> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running =
OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and =
the other half the routers use metric type BAR?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> > Dear all,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is =
its interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Although it is mentioned that
>>>>> >
>>>>> > " a bad
>>>>> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET =
anywhere from inefficient to
>>>>> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported =
link
>>>>> >   metric types across the MANET."
>>>>> >
>>>>> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations =
section, I still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
>>>>> > What I understood is that:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by =
other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the =
network.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without =
intersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 =
uses C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the =
applicability statement.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. =
I'm thinking about some possibilities like:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is =
unknown, or
>>>>> >
>>>>> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which =
should be supported by all routers.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > best
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Jiazi
>>>>> >
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > manet mailing list
>>>>> > manet@ietf.org
>>>>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_3E83B161-FCDE-45FB-A98B-7C644C624093
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">I =
should add two things here....<div><br><div><div>On 18 Feb 2014, at =
16:57, Thomas Clausen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">On 18 Feb 2014, at =
16:37, Jiazi YI &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 18, =
2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: =
auto;"><div dir=3D"auto">No, you didn't mention it. However it's =
important to establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words =
for example, an instance of where the best thing to do is to drop a =
packet.)</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>agree.</div><div>&nbsp;</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: =
auto;"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>The question then is what =
do you mean by "best effort"? If you require single metric routes, and =
you don't have all the metrics (and it's undesirable to require that you =
do, my second point) then there is no best effort that will get you =
there.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think depending on =
the applications, there are two =
possibilities:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers =
couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not considered - =
because it probably won't be able to provide desired =
QoS.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; - &nbsp; It's preferred to =
build routes using the metric required - but if not, we still want to =
have the packet delivered in certain other way (best =
effort).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Personally, I think we should =
provide the second possibility.&nbsp;</div><div>But if the WG believes =
that the second is not desired, I'll respect the decision of the =
WG.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>I think that we should be careful not to restrict =
unnecessarily.</div><div><br></div><div>If we do *not* stipulate in the =
spec "you MUST support metric X always" (where "X" may be "hop count"), =
that doesn't preclude that you deploy a network, wherein the requirement =
for participation is for all devices to be "provisioned with hop-count =
metrics", but it is also encouraged - and even expected - for a router =
to support some better metrics also. Ensuring that such a requirement is =
met would be part of the same provisioning process that you go through =
to get cryptographic material to the routers for message authentication, =
for example, and could even be made a prerequisite for a router to get =
such material ;)</div><div><br></div><div>If we *do* stipulate in the =
spec "you MUST support metric X always" (where "X" may be "hop count"), =
then it'd technically be non-conformant to build a network which doesn't =
-- and I want to be able to build such a network, since (in some cases) =
a hop-count-path will be worse than no =
path.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For example: it'll be a futile =
waste of battery to try to send data through the path discovered using =
the X-metric -- and, the pathological example here will be the =
well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent at a lower datarate than =
unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route to Host" immediately, =
than wait for the inevitable timeout..</div><div><br></div><div>Now, =
some might say "then make default metric X to be something different =
from hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord ("smorgadsbord" =
for those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of metrics to choose =
from "out there", and choosing one would be a rathole worth (at least) a =
decade of discussions...discussions, that won't bring us any closer to =
reaching any agreement: different deployments have different =
requirements, and different media exhibit different =
characteristics.</div><div><br></div><div>So, in =
summary&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Specifying a =
mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will actually restrict =
some scenarios that I consider to be =
important.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Not specifying a =
mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the current approach) =
does not prevent anyone from making&nbsp;</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">		=
</span>that an additional requirement in a =
deployment.</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Agreeing on a "good default =
metric" is a rat-hole I don't think we should drag ourselves into - it's =
deployment specific.</div><div><br></div><div>Bottom =
line:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space: pre;">	</span>Restrictions of that sort should =
not be imposed: they will hurt, but they won't =
help.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>As it turns =
out that specific metrics is found to be particularly beneficial, in =
practice, then the right approach is to:</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Write up =
a specification, documenting that metric, making the necessary IANA =
reservations,&nbsp;</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>stipulating how it is =
calculated, etc. - like Henning is doing with the ETT-metric - for =
publication</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>as an =
RFC</div><div><br></div><div>If it turns out that for a specific class =
of deployments, a specific set of metrics are =
preferred/recommended/found to be perfect, then the right approach is =
to:</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Write up a specification =
documenting exactly that - a sort of "profile" - which can (IIRC) attain =
even</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
	</span>std. track and therefore be normative in the "if you =
deploy a network of this class, then you MUST&nbsp;</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>use these metrics (and, presumably, other things). Of course, =
caveating that by a sufficiently precise</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>description of the class of deployments where it =
applies.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</d=
iv><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div>Cheerios,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>You can't =
decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the destination, =
based on what routing information for different metrics you have, =
because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's =
your usual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to =
an alternative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are =
using. And that may mean you end up using more than one metric, which =
we've agreed is unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even =
just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.</div><div><br>-- =
&nbsp;<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher =
Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(iPhone)</div><div><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" =
target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(home)</div></font></span></d=
iv><div><div><br>On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher =
Dearlove<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word;"><div>The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or =
inevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two =
points:</div><div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than =
one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to =
fail to deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent =
at all costs.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I agree that =
we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe that I =
didn't mention it in my previous =
posts.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;">- Second, =
there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (include all =
routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why =
not.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It's true that =
not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we probably =
want "best effort" =
services.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jia=
zi</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; =
padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word;"><div><br></div><br><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, =
Jiazi YI wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas =
Clausen<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word;"><br><div><div><div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">I won't say that they are =
different.&nbsp;<div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. =
But as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think =
it worth to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous =
discussions on this =
issue)?&nbsp;</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>=
Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that =
you didn't think that they were different =
problems.</div><div><br></div><div>In the general sense, I think that =
there's nothing much (short of mandating "thou shall always support =
metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol =
can do to guard against a deployment where the network operators are =
going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an =
example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 =
routers).</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I =
think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, =
it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are =
used.&nbsp;</div><div>Given such heterogeneous environment, it's =
expected that the protocol is as robust as =
possible.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>For =
example,&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"> If such a router (OLSR without =
MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its =
destination, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre><pre =
style=3D"font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: =
0px;"><br></pre></div><div>In such case, we would expect the packet can =
reach the destination, even it doesn't use the same metric as =
others.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi=
</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><div><br></div><div>I'd not object =
personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text that you =
quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.</div><span><font =
color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></span><div><div>=
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">Jiazi</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, =
2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; =
border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">How is that problem any =
different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein =
half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half the routers use =
metric type BAR?<br><br>Thomas<br><div><br>On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, =
Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>&gt; Dear =
all,<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I had a review of =
draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Without =
going into details for the moment, my main concern is its =
interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using =
different set of metrics.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; Although it is mentioned =
that<br>&gt;<br>&gt; " a bad<br>&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric =
types) will make the MANET anywhere from inefficient to<br>&gt; &nbsp; =
non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported =
link<br>&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET."<br>&gt;<br>&gt; and =
there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I still =
feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>&gt; What I understood is =
that:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a =
metric type not supported by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely =
that it can participate in the network.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for =
example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then =
they can't be interconnected either.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; I think the =
compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability =
statement.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; It would be even better if it can be =
addressed in certain ways. I'm thinking about some possibilities =
like:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX =
value, if a metric type is unknown, or<br>&gt;<br>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be =
supported by all routers.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; best<br>&gt;<br>&gt; =
Jiazi<br>&gt;<br></div>&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br>&gt; manet mailing =
list<br>&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
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e></div><br></div></div>_______________________________________________<br=
>manet mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
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__________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
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orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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If you have a packet due to be delivered by topology X, and you don't have =
a route by Topology X, there is no best effort. Any attempt to use another =
route, which means another metric, can loop. (Not its only problem, but a b=
ad one.)

So there is no "best effort". Best is to drop the packet.

There is a possible exception, you are the packet source. But the packet so=
urce may be outside the MANET. OK, add or the ingress gateway.

But now, what are you going to substitute for topology X. Topology Y? How c=
an you have any idea that topology Y is acceptable? Throwing it away may be=
 better than trying topology Y. As a mere router, and just seeing a packet,=
 you don't know. (Was the topology bandwidth dependent? I'd rather not clog=
 topology Y. Was it security related?)

And how do you make it clear to intermediate router that this packet, that =
looks like a topology X packet, is being routed by topology Y? Depends how =
topologies are indicated. But to take a typical means, DSCP, that means cha=
nging the DSCP. Sorry, there are networks that's not allowed in.

So I don't believe in best effort. It's often worse than discarding a packe=
t. If topology X isn't supported by a router, it will have had a good reaso=
n for that. (Or is legacy OLSRv2.) Discarding a packet may also leave the e=
ndpoint application to try something else.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 18 February 2014 15:37
To: Christopher Dearlove
Cc: manet@ietf.org List; Thomas Clausen
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-=
02


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Hi,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:
No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it pro=
vides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where the be=
st thing to do is to drop a packet.)

agree.


The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require sing=
le metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's undesirable =
to require that you do, my second point) then there is no best effort that =
will get you there.

I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:

  -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not =
considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.

  -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but if not=
, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way (best eff=
ort).

Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.
But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect the dec=
ision of the WG.

best

Jiazi




You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the destina=
tion, based on what routing information for different metrics you have, bec=
ause unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's your u=
sual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an altern=
ative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And th=
at may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is un=
acceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to change a DSCP -=
 may also be unacceptable.

--
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> (iPho=
ne)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk<mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> (home)

On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:
Hi,

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:
The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among th=
e things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver a=
 packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to d=
eliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.

I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe =
that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.

- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (include=
 all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.


It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we=
 probably want "best effort" services.

best

Jiazi



On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:


Hi,

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:

On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:


I won't say that they are different.
However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple m=
etrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more atten=
tion (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?


Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you =
didn't think that they were different problems.

In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mandating=
 "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of p=
roblems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the net=
work operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves =
in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 routers).


I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, i=
t's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is as=
 robust as possible.

For example,


 If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet wil=
l never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable

      routing table entry for the destination.


In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it=
 doesn't use the same metric as others.

best

Jiazi


I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text t=
hat you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.

Thomas


Jiazi

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:
How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not =
-MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half t=
he routers use metric type BAR?

Thomas

On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>
> Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its interop=
erability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set of m=
etrics.
>
> Although it is mentioned that
>
> " a bad
>   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from i=
nefficient to
>   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>   metric types across the MANET."
>
> and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I st=
ill feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> What I understood is that:
>
>       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other MT-OL=
SR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
>
>       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for ex=
ample, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they c=
an't be interconnected either.
>
> I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability st=
atement.
>
> It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm think=
ing about some possibilities like:
>
>       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
>
>       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be supp=
orted by all routers.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



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<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">If you have a packet due =
to be delivered by topology X, and you don&#8217;t have a route by Topology=
 X, there is no best effort. Any attempt to use another route,
 which means another metric, can loop. (Not its only problem, but a bad one=
.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So there is no &#8220;bes=
t effort&#8221;. Best is to drop the packet.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">There is a possible excep=
tion, you are the packet source. But the packet source may be outside the M=
ANET. OK, add or the ingress gateway.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">But now, what are you goi=
ng to substitute for topology X. Topology Y? How can you have any idea that=
 topology Y is acceptable? Throwing it away may be better
 than trying topology Y. As a mere router, and just seeing a packet, you do=
n&#8217;t know. (Was the topology bandwidth dependent? I&#8217;d rather not=
 clog topology Y. Was it security related?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">And how do you make it cl=
ear to intermediate router that this packet, that looks like a topology X p=
acket, is being routed by topology Y? Depends how topologies
 are indicated. But to take a typical means, DSCP, that means changing the =
DSCP. Sorry, there are networks that&#8217;s not allowed in.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">So I don&#8217;t believe =
in best effort. It&#8217;s often worse than discarding a packet. If topolog=
y X isn&#8217;t supported by a router, it will have had a good reason for
 that. (Or is legacy OLSRv2.) Discarding a packet may also leave the endpoi=
nt application to try something else.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jiazi YI<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 February 2014 15:37<br>
<b>To:</b> Christopher Dearlove<br>
<b>Cc:</b> manet@ietf.org List; Thomas Clausen<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multito=
pology-02<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to=
 establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an i=
nstance of where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agree.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question then is what do you mean by &quot;best =
effort&quot;? If you require single metric routes, and you don't have all t=
he metrics (and it's undesirable to require that you do, my second point) t=
hen there is no best effort that will get you
 there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on the applications, there are two=
 possibilities:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers couldn't support the =
designated metric, then it's not considered - because it probably won't be =
able to provide desired QoS.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; It's preferred to build routes using=
 the metric required - but if not, we still want to have the packet deliver=
ed in certain other way (best effort).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Personally, I think we should provide the second pos=
sibility.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But if the WG believes that the second is not desire=
d, I'll respect the decision of the WG.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that =
gets you to the destination, based on what routing information for differen=
t metrics you have, because unless you do something like modify the packet =
DSCP - if that's your usual way to
 choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you=
 can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And that may mean=
 you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is unacceptable.=
 And modifying packets in transit
 - even just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#888888"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Christopher Dearlove<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.co=
m</a> (iPhone)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
s@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> =
(home)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or i=
nevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- First, that (for example) routing using more than =
one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail t=
o deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all cos=
ts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric f=
or a packet. I believe that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Second, there is no reason why all topologies shou=
ld be complete (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of exa=
mples why not.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It's true that not all topologies should be complete=
. However, sometimes we probably want &quot;best effort&quot; services.&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I won't say that they are different.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. Bu=
t as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it wor=
th to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on th=
is issue)?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to m=
ake very sure that you didn't think that they were different problems.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the general sense, I think that there's nothing m=
uch (short of mandating &quot;thou shall always support metric XXX&quot; - =
which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard a=
gainst a deployment where the network operators
 are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (a=
n example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think for MANET, as we might face different kind o=
f interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics ar=
e used.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected =
that the protocol is as robust as possible.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> If such a router (OLSR without MT) i=
s the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the=
 source will not have a suitable<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; routin=
g table entry for the destination. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In such case, we would expect the packet can reach t=
he destination, even it doesn't use the same metric as others.&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but g=
oing back to the text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear alread=
y.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Thomas<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How is that problem any different than, say, a netwo=
rk running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type F=
OO and the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>
<br>
Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywher=
e from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported l=
ink<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not suppor=
ted by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in=
 the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without in=
tersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses =
C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm th=
inking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type =
is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop=
-count, which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt; ________________=
_______________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p>********************************************************************<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
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You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Agree with those points, which overlap with mine, but aren't identical. (I =
agree with Thomas's non-overlapping details too).

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Clausen
Sent: 18 February 2014 15:58
To: Jiazi YI
Cc: Christopher Dearlove; manet@ietf.org List
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-=
02


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On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:


Hi,

On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:

No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it pro=
vides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where the be=
st thing to do is to drop a packet.)

agree.


The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require sing=
le metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's undesirable =
to require that you do, my second point) then there is no best effort that =
will get you there.

I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:

  -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not =
considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.

  -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but if not=
, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way (best eff=
ort).

Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.
But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect the dec=
ision of the WG.


I think that we should be careful not to restrict unnecessarily.

If we do *not* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" (wh=
ere "X" may be "hop count"), that doesn't preclude that you deploy a networ=
k, wherein the requirement for participation is for all devices to be "prov=
isioned with hop-count metrics", but it is also encouraged - and even expec=
ted - for a router to support some better metrics also. Ensuring that such =
a requirement is met would be part of the same provisioning process that yo=
u go through to get cryptographic material to the routers for message authe=
ntication, for example, and could even be made a prerequisite for a router =
to get such material ;)

If we *do* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" (where =
"X" may be "hop count"), then it'd technically be non-conformant to build a=
 network which doesn't -- and I want to be able to build such a network, si=
nce (in some cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no path.

For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to try to send data through=
 the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the pathological example he=
re will be the well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent at a lower da=
tarate than unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route to Host" immedia=
tely, than wait for the inevitable timeout..

Now, some might say "then make default metric X to be something different f=
rom hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord ("smorgadsbord" for=
 those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of metrics to choose from "out=
 there", and choosing one would be a rathole worth (at least) a decade of d=
iscussions...discussions, that won't bring us any closer to reaching any ag=
reement: different deployments have different requirements, and different m=
edia exhibit different characteristics.

So, in summary

            o          Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use=
 metric will actually restrict some scenarios that I consider to be importa=
nt.

            o          Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to=
-use metric (the current approach) does not prevent anyone from making
                        that an additional requirement in a deployment.

            o          Agreeing on a "good default metric" is a rat-hole I =
don't think we should drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.

Bottom line:

            o          Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: the=
y will hurt, but they won't help.

Cheerios,

Thomas

best

Jiazi




You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the destina=
tion, based on what routing information for different metrics you have, bec=
ause unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's your u=
sual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an altern=
ative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And th=
at may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is un=
acceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to change a DSCP -=
 may also be unacceptable.

--
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> (iPho=
ne)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk<mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> (home)

On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:
Hi,

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:
The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among th=
e things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver a=
 packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to d=
eliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.

I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe =
that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.

- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (include=
 all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.


It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we=
 probably want "best effort" services.

best

Jiazi



On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:


Hi,

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:

On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:


I won't say that they are different.
However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple m=
etrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more atten=
tion (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?


Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you =
didn't think that they were different problems.

In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mandating=
 "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of p=
roblems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the net=
work operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves =
in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 routers).


I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, i=
t's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is as=
 robust as possible.

For example,


 If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet wil=
l never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable

      routing table entry for the destination.


In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it=
 doesn't use the same metric as others.

best

Jiazi


I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text t=
hat you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.

Thomas


Jiazi

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:
How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not =
-MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half t=
he routers use metric type BAR?

Thomas

On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>
> Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its interop=
erability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set of m=
etrics.
>
> Although it is mentioned that
>
> " a bad
>   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from i=
nefficient to
>   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>   metric types across the MANET."
>
> and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I st=
ill feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> What I understood is that:
>
>       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other MT-OL=
SR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
>
>       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for ex=
ample, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they c=
an't be interconnected either.
>
> I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability st=
atement.
>
> It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm think=
ing about some possibilities like:
>
>       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
>
>       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be supp=
orted by all routers.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Agree with those points, =
which overlap with mine, but aren&#8217;t identical. (I agree with Thomas&#=
8217;s non-overlapping details too).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Thomas Clausen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 February 2014 15:58<br>
<b>To:</b> Jiazi YI<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Christopher Dearlove; manet@ietf.org List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multito=
pology-02<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
</em></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></stron=
g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">
here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to=
 establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an i=
nstance of where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agree.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm;z-index:auto">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question then is what do you mean by &quot;best =
effort&quot;? If you require single metric routes, and you don't have all t=
he metrics (and it's undesirable to require that you do, my second point) t=
hen there is no best effort that will get you
 there.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on the applications, there are two=
 possibilities:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers couldn't support the =
designated metric, then it's not considered - because it probably won't be =
able to provide desired QoS.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; It's preferred to build routes using=
 the metric required - but if not, we still want to have the packet deliver=
ed in certain other way (best effort).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Personally, I think we should provide the second pos=
sibility.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But if the WG believes that the second is not desire=
d, I'll respect the decision of the WG.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think that we should be careful not to restrict un=
necessarily.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we do *not* stipulate in the spec &quot;you MUST =
support metric X always&quot; (where &quot;X&quot; may be &quot;hop count&q=
uot;), that doesn't preclude that you deploy a network, wherein the require=
ment for participation is for all devices to be &quot;provisioned with
 hop-count metrics&quot;, but it is also encouraged - and even expected - f=
or a router to support some better metrics also. Ensuring that such a requi=
rement is met would be part of the same provisioning process that you go th=
rough to get cryptographic material to
 the routers for message authentication, for example, and could even be mad=
e a prerequisite for a router to get such material ;)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we *do* stipulate in the spec &quot;you MUST supp=
ort metric X always&quot; (where &quot;X&quot; may be &quot;hop count&quot;=
), then it'd technically be non-conformant to build a network which doesn't=
 -- and I want to be able to build such a network, since (in some
 cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no path.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to t=
ry to send data through the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the =
pathological example here will be the well-known situation wherein broadcas=
t is sent at a lower datarate than
 unicast -- and I'd much rather get a &quot;No Route to Host&quot; immediat=
ely, than wait for the inevitable timeout..<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now, some might say &quot;then make default metric X=
 to be something different from hop-count&quot;. There's a veritable sm=F8r=
rebr=F8dsbord (&quot;smorgadsbord&quot; for those into deforming good Danis=
h words ;) ) of metrics to choose from &quot;out there&quot;, and choosing
 one would be a rathole worth (at least) a decade of discussions...discussi=
ons, that won't bring us any closer to reaching any agreement: different de=
ployments have different requirements, and different media exhibit differen=
t characteristics.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, in summary&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span class=3D"apple-=
tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will act=
ually restrict some scenarios that I consider to be important.&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span class=3D"apple-=
tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the=
 current approach) does not prevent anyone from making&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
that an additional requirement in a deployment.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span class=3D"apple-=
tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Agreeing on a &quot;good default metric&quot; is a rat-hole I don't =
think we should drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Bottom line:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span class=3D"apple-=
tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: they will hurt, but=
 they won't help.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheerios,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that =
gets you to the destination, based on what routing information for differen=
t metrics you have, because unless you do something like modify the packet =
DSCP - if that's your usual way to
 choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you=
 can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And that may mean=
 you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is unacceptable.=
 And modifying packets in transit
 - even just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#888888"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Christopher Dearlove<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.co=
m</a> (iPhone)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
s@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> =
(home)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or i=
nevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- First, that (for example) routing using more than =
one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail t=
o deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all cos=
ts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric f=
or a packet. I believe that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.&nbsp;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Second, there is no reason why all topologies shou=
ld be complete (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of exa=
mples why not.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It's true that not all topologies should be complete=
. However, sometimes we probably want &quot;best effort&quot; services.&nbs=
p;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I won't say that they are different.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. Bu=
t as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it wor=
th to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on th=
is issue)?&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to m=
ake very sure that you didn't think that they were different problems.<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the general sense, I think that there's nothing m=
uch (short of mandating &quot;thou shall always support metric XXX&quot; - =
which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard a=
gainst a deployment where the network operators
 are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (a=
n example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think for MANET, as we might face different kind o=
f interfaces/mediums, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics ar=
e used.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected =
that the protocol is as robust as possible.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example,&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> If such a router (OLSR without MT) i=
s the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the=
 source will not have a suitable<o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; routin=
g table entry for the destination. <o:p></o:p></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In such case, we would expect the packet can reach t=
he destination, even it doesn't use the same metric as others.&nbsp;<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but g=
oing back to the text that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear alread=
y.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Thomas<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How is that problem any different than, say, a netwo=
rk running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type F=
OO and the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>
<br>
Thomas<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywher=
e from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported l=
ink<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not suppor=
ted by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in=
 the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without in=
tersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses =
C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm th=
inking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type =
is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop=
-count, which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt; ________________=
_______________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: "Stan Ratliff (sratliff)" <sratliff@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:06 AM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<mail=
to:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:

I should add two things here....

On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:57, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<mailto:t=
homas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:


On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:

Hi,


On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:
No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it pro=
vides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where the be=
st thing to do is to drop a packet.)

agree.


The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require sing=
le metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's undesirable =
to require that you do, my second point) then there is no best effort that =
will get you there.

I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:

  -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not =
considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.

  -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but if not=
, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way (best eff=
ort).

Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.
But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect the dec=
ision of the WG.


I think that we should be careful not to restrict unnecessarily.

If we do *not* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" (wh=
ere "X" may be "hop count"), that doesn't preclude that you deploy a networ=
k, wherein the requirement for participation is for all devices to be "prov=
isioned with hop-count metrics", but it is also encouraged - and even expec=
ted - for a router to support some better metrics also. Ensuring that such =
a requirement is met would be part of the same provisioning process that yo=
u go through to get cryptographic material to the routers for message authe=
ntication, for example, and could even be made a prerequisite for a router =
to get such material ;)

If we *do* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" (where =
"X" may be "hop count"), then it'd technically be non-conformant to build a=
 network which doesn't -- and I want to be able to build such a network, si=
nce (in some cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no path.

For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to try to send data through=
 the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the pathological example he=
re will be the well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent at a lower da=
tarate than unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route to Host" immedia=
tely, than wait for the inevitable timeout..

Now, some might say "then make default metric X to be something different f=
rom hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord ("smorgadsbord" for=
 those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of metrics to choose from "out=
 there", and choosing one would be a rathole worth (at least) a decade of d=
iscussions...discussions, that won't bring us any closer to reaching any ag=
reement: different deployments have different requirements, and different m=
edia exhibit different characteristics.

So, in summary

o Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will actually=
 restrict some scenarios that I consider to be important.

o Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the curr=
ent approach) does not prevent anyone from making
that an additional requirement in a deployment.

o Agreeing on a "good default metric" is a rat-hole I don't think we should=
 drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.

Bottom line:

o Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: they will hurt, but they=
 won't help.


As it turns out that specific metrics is found to be particularly beneficia=
l, in practice, then the right approach is to:

o Write up a specification, documenting that metric, making the necessary I=
ANA reservations,
stipulating how it is calculated, etc. - like Henning is doing with the ETT=
-metric - for publication
as an RFC

If it turns out that for a specific class of deployments, a specific set of=
 metrics are preferred/recommended/found to be perfect, then the right appr=
oach is to:

o Write up a specification documenting exactly that - a sort of "profile" -=
 which can (IIRC) attain even
std. track and therefore be normative in the "if you deploy a network of th=
is class, then you MUST
use these metrics (and, presumably, other things). Of course, caveating tha=
t by a sufficiently precise
description of the class of deployments where it applies.

The only quibble I would have about the specification is that I think it sh=
ould probably be aimed at Informational, as a type of "best practices" kind=
 of doc.

Regards,
Stan


Best,

Thomas

Cheerios,

Thomas

best

Jiazi




You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the destina=
tion, based on what routing information for different metrics you have, bec=
ause unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's your u=
sual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an altern=
ative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are using. And th=
at may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've agreed is un=
acceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to change a DSCP -=
 may also be unacceptable.

--
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> (iPho=
ne)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk<mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> (home)

On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:

Hi,


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:
The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among th=
e things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver a=
 packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to d=
eliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.

I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe =
that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.

- Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete (include=
 all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.


It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes we=
 probably want "best effort" services.

best

Jiazi



On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:

Hi,


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:

On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:

I won't say that they are different.
However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple m=
etrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more atten=
tion (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?


Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you =
didn't think that they were different problems.

In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mandating=
 "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own set of p=
roblems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where the net=
work operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves =
in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2 routers).


I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums, i=
t's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is as=
 robust as possible.

For example,


 If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet wil=
l never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination.


In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even it=
 doesn't use the same metric as others.

best

Jiazi


I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text t=
hat you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.

Thomas

Jiazi


On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org<m=
ailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:
How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not =
-MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half t=
he routers use metric type BAR?

Thomas

On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com>> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
>
> Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its interop=
erability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set of m=
etrics.
>
> Although it is mentioned that
>
> " a bad
>   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from i=
nefficient to
>   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
>   metric types across the MANET."
>
> and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I st=
ill feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> What I understood is that:
>
>       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other MT-OL=
SR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
>
>       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for ex=
ample, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they c=
an't be interconnected either.
>
> I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability st=
atement.
>
> It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm think=
ing about some possibilities like:
>
>       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
>
>       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be supp=
orted by all routers.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet




_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



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manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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--_000_BACC50869BD64315B6641AE2D98F3E78ciscocom_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; ">
<br>
<div>
<div>On Feb 18, 2014, at 11:06 AM, Thomas Clausen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tho=
mas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
I should add two things here....
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:57, Thomas Clausen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@=
thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-trans=
form: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher De=
arlove<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto;">
<div dir=3D"auto">No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to esta=
blish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instan=
ce of where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>agree.</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto;">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The question then is what do you mean by &quot;best effort&quot;? If y=
ou require single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it=
's undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is no be=
st effort that will get you there.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:</d=
iv>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers couldn't support the designated metric,=
 then it's not considered - because it probably won't be able to provide de=
sired QoS.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp; - &nbsp; It's preferred to build routes using the metric requir=
ed - but if not, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain othe=
r way (best effort).&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.&nbsp;</d=
iv>
<div>But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect th=
e decision of the WG.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think that we should be careful not to restrict unnecessarily.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we do *not* stipulate in the spec &quot;you MUST support metric X a=
lways&quot; (where &quot;X&quot; may be &quot;hop count&quot;), that doesn'=
t preclude that you deploy a network, wherein the requirement for participa=
tion is for all devices to be &quot;provisioned with hop-count metrics&quot=
;,
 but it is also encouraged - and even expected - for a router to support so=
me better metrics also. Ensuring that such a requirement is met would be pa=
rt of the same provisioning process that you go through to get cryptographi=
c material to the routers for message
 authentication, for example, and could even be made a prerequisite for a r=
outer to get such material ;)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we *do* stipulate in the spec &quot;you MUST support metric X alway=
s&quot; (where &quot;X&quot; may be &quot;hop count&quot;), then it'd techn=
ically be non-conformant to build a network which doesn't -- and I want to =
be able to build such a network, since (in some cases) a hop-count-path
 will be worse than no path.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to try to send data th=
rough the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the pathological examp=
le here will be the well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent at a low=
er datarate than unicast -- and
 I'd much rather get a &quot;No Route to Host&quot; immediately, than wait =
for the inevitable timeout..</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now, some might say &quot;then make default metric X to be something d=
ifferent from hop-count&quot;. There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord (&qu=
ot;smorgadsbord&quot; for those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of me=
trics to choose from &quot;out there&quot;, and choosing one would
 be a rathole worth (at least) a decade of discussions...discussions, that =
won't bring us any closer to reaching any agreement: different deployments =
have different requirements, and different media exhibit different characte=
ristics.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, in summary&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;"></span>o<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">
</span>Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will act=
ually restrict some scenarios that I consider to be important.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;"></span>o<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">
</span>Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the=
 current approach) does not prevent anyone from making&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;"></span>that=
 an additional requirement in a deployment.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;"></span>o<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">
</span>Agreeing on a &quot;good default metric&quot; is a rat-hole I don't =
think we should drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Bottom line:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;"></span>o<sp=
an class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space: pre;">
</span>Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: they will hurt, but=
 they won't help.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
As it turns out that specific metrics is found to be particularly beneficia=
l, in practice, then the right approach is to:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>o<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">
</span>Write up a specification, documenting that metric, making the necess=
ary IANA reservations,&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>stipul=
ating how it is calculated, etc. - like Henning is doing with the ETT-metri=
c - for publication</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>as an =
RFC</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If it turns out that for a specific class of deployments, a specific s=
et of metrics are preferred/recommended/found to be perfect, then the right=
 approach is to:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>o<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">
</span>Write up a specification documenting exactly that - a sort of &quot;=
profile&quot; - which can (IIRC) attain even</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>std. t=
rack and therefore be normative in the &quot;if you deploy a network of thi=
s class, then you MUST&nbsp;</div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>use th=
ese metrics (and, presumably, other things). Of course, caveating that by a=
 sufficiently precise</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
<div>
<div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre"></span>descri=
ption of the class of deployments where it applies.</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only quibble I would have about the specification is that I think =
it should probably be aimed at Informational, as a type of &quot;best pract=
ices&quot; kind of doc.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Stan</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line=
-break: after-white-space;">
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thomas</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-hei=
ght: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-trans=
form: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div>Cheerios,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thomas</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jiazi</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the de=
stination, based on what routing information for different metrics you have=
, because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if that's y=
our usual way to choose metric,
 if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you can't let othe=
r routers know which metric you are using. And that may mean you end up usi=
ng more than one metric, which we've agreed is unacceptable. And modifying =
packets in transit - even just to
 change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.</div>
<div><br>
-- &nbsp;<span><font color=3D"#888888">
<div>Christopher Dearlove</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ch=
ristopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span>(iPhone)</div>
<div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris=
@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n>(home)</div>
</font></span></div>
<div>
<div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher De=
arlove<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-sp=
ace">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;">
<div>The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are amo=
ng the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:</div>
<div>- First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deli=
ver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure=
 to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I bel=
ieve that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.&nbsp;</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;">- Second, there is no reason why all =
topologies should be complete (include all routers). in fact it's not hard =
to think of examples why not.</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometim=
es we probably want &quot;best effort&quot; services.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jiazi</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;">
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,&nbsp;<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomascla=
usen.org</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>w=
rote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;"><br>
<div>
<div>
<div>On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I won't say that they are different.&nbsp;
<div>However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multi=
ple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more =
attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?&nbsp;</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you =
didn't think that they were different problems.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of mand=
ating &quot;thou shall always support metric XXX&quot; - which, alas, has i=
ts own set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deploymen=
t where the network operators are going through
 extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (an example: define =
&quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediu=
ms, it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.&nbsp;</div=
>
<div>Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol =
is as robust as possible.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example,&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<pre style=3D"font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"> If suc=
h a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet will never=
 reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
      routing table entry for the destination. </pre>
<pre style=3D"font-size: 1em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 0px;"><br></p=
re>
</div>
<div>In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, ev=
en it doesn't use the same metric as others.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>best</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jiazi</div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word;">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the t=
ext that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.</div>
<span><font color=3D"#888888">
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thomas</div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Jiazi</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen<=
span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomascla=
usen.org</a>&gt;</span><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>w=
rote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style=
: solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not =
-MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half t=
he routers use metric type BAR?<br>
<br>
Thomas<br>
<div><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywher=
e from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported l=
ink<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not suppor=
ted by other MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in=
 the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without in=
tersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses =
C, D), then they can't be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm th=
inking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type =
is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop=
-count, which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<br>
</div>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:ma=
net@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://w=
ww.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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From nobody Tue Feb 18 09:53:01 2014
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To: Stan Ratliff <sratliff@cisco.com>
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Cc: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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On 18 Feb 2014, at 18:48, Stan Ratliff (sratliff) <sratliff@cisco.com> =
wrote:

<SNIP>

>>=20
>> As it turns out that specific metrics is found to be particularly =
beneficial, in practice, then the right approach is to:
>>=20
>> o
>> Write up a specification, documenting that metric, making the =
necessary IANA reservations,=20
>> stipulating how it is calculated, etc. - like Henning is doing with =
the ETT-metric - for publication
>> as an RFC
>>=20
>> If it turns out that for a specific class of deployments, a specific =
set of metrics are preferred/recommended/found to be perfect, then the =
right approach is to:
>>=20
>> o
>> Write up a specification documenting exactly that - a sort of =
"profile" - which can (IIRC) attain even
>> std. track and therefore be normative in the "if you deploy a network =
of this class, then you MUST=20
>> use these metrics (and, presumably, other things). Of course, =
caveating that by a sufficiently precise
>> description of the class of deployments where it applies.
>=20
> The only quibble I would have about the specification is that I think =
it should probably be aimed at Informational, as a type of "best =
practices" kind of doc.=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Stan

Let's cross that bridge when we get to it - that's not something it's =
worth quibbling over until there's text....

At this juncture I am not sure that we have identified sufficiently =
large classes of sufficiently large deployments to start writing =
(although others may disagree).

I'll say this, though, I've seen such documents as both BCPs and PS from =
other WGs  - and IETF process has had a tendency to evolve even faster =
than the Internet itself, these past years, so who knows what's in =
fashion tomorrow.....=


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From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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--047d7b3439c241bcd904f2b228f9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I agree with Chris and Thomas. I wonder if these explanations (translated
into a formal text) are useful to be added to the draft in the introduction?

Regards
Ulrich


On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

>  If you have a packet due to be delivered by topology X, and you don't
> have a route by Topology X, there is no best effort. Any attempt to use
> another route, which means another metric, can loop. (Not its only problem,
> but a bad one.)
>
>
>
> So there is no "best effort". Best is to drop the packet.
>
>
>
> There is a possible exception, you are the packet source. But the packet
> source may be outside the MANET. OK, add or the ingress gateway.
>
>
>
> But now, what are you going to substitute for topology X. Topology Y? How
> can you have any idea that topology Y is acceptable? Throwing it away may
> be better than trying topology Y. As a mere router, and just seeing a
> packet, you don't know. (Was the topology bandwidth dependent? I'd rather
> not clog topology Y. Was it security related?)
>
>
>
> And how do you make it clear to intermediate router that this packet, that
> looks like a topology X packet, is being routed by topology Y? Depends how
> topologies are indicated. But to take a typical means, DSCP, that means
> changing the DSCP. Sorry, there are networks that's not allowed in.
>
>
>
> So I don't believe in best effort. It's often worse than discarding a
> packet. If topology X isn't supported by a router, it will have had a good
> reason for that. (Or is legacy OLSRv2.) Discarding a packet may also leave
> the endpoint application to try something else.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,
> Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>
>
>
> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI
> *Sent:* 18 February 2014 15:37
> *To:* Christopher Dearlove
> *Cc:* manet@ietf.org List; Thomas Clausen
>
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] comments on
> draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
>
>
>
>
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> *For information regarding **Red Flags** that you can look out for in
> emails you receive, click here
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf>.*
>
> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.*
>
>   Hi,
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it
> provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where the
> best thing to do is to drop a packet.)
>
>
>
> agree.
>
>
>
>
>
> The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require
> single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's
> undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is no best
> effort that will get you there.
>
>
>
> I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:
>
>
>
>   -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's not
> considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.
>
>
>
>   -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but if
> not, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way (best
> effort).
>
>
>
> Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.
>
> But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect the
> decision of the WG.
>
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the
> destination, based on what routing information for different metrics you
> have, because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if
> that's your usual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would apply
> to an alternative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are
> using. And that may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we've
> agreed is unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to
> change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>
> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver
> a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure to
> deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>
>
>
> I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believe
> that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.
>
>
>
>  - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not.
>
>
>
>
>
> It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes
> we probably want "best effort" services.
>
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>
>
>
>  Hi,
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>  I won't say that they are different.
>
> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple
> metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more
> attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?
>
>
>
>
>
> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that you
> didn't think that they were different problems.
>
>
>
> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of
> mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its own
> set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment where
> the network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot
> themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2
> routers).
>
>
>
>
>
> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums,
> it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
>
> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is
> as robust as possible.
>
>
>
> For example,
>
>
>
>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
>
>       routing table entry for the destination.
>
>
>
>  In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even
> it doesn't use the same metric as others.
>
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>
>
>
> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text
> that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>   Jiazi
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
> wrote:
>
> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (not
> -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half
> the routers use metric type BAR?
>
> Thomas
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
> >
> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its
> interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different
> set of metrics.
> >
> > Although it is mentioned that
> >
> > " a bad
> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from
> inefficient to
> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
> >   metric types across the MANET."
> >
> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I
> still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> > What I understood is that:
> >
> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other
> MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the network.
> >
> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for
> example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then they
> can't be interconnected either.
> >
> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability
> statement.
> >
> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm
> thinking about some possibilities like:
> >
> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
> >
> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be
> supported by all routers.
> >
> > best
> >
> > Jiazi
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--047d7b3439c241bcd904f2b228f9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree with Chris and Thomas. I wonder if these explanati=
ons (translated into a formal text) are useful to be added to the draft in =
the introduction?<br><br>Regards<br>Ulrich<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra">
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 9:38 AM, Dearlov=
e, Christopher (UK) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">If you have a packet due =
to be delivered by topology X, and you don&rsquo;t have a route by Topology=
 X, there is no best effort. Any attempt to use another route,
 which means another metric, can loop. (Not its only problem, but a bad one=
.)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">So there is no &ldquo;bes=
t effort&rdquo;. Best is to drop the packet.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">There is a possible excep=
tion, you are the packet source. But the packet source may be outside the M=
ANET. OK, add or the ingress gateway.<u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">But now, what are you goi=
ng to substitute for topology X. Topology Y? How can you have any idea that=
 topology Y is acceptable? Throwing it away may be better
 than trying topology Y. As a mere router, and just seeing a packet, you do=
n&rsquo;t know. (Was the topology bandwidth dependent? I&rsquo;d rather not=
 clog topology Y. Was it security related?)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">And how do you make it cl=
ear to intermediate router that this packet, that looks like a topology X p=
acket, is being routed by topology Y? Depends how topologies
 are indicated. But to take a typical means, DSCP, that means changing the =
DSCP. Sorry, there are networks that&rsquo;s not allowed in.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">So I don&rsquo;t believe =
in best effort. It&rsquo;s often worse than discarding a packet. If topolog=
y X isn&rsquo;t supported by a router, it will have had a good reason for
 that. (Or is legacy OLSRv2.) Discarding a packet may also leave the endpoi=
nt application to try something else.<u></u><u></u></span></p><div class=3D=
"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">--
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Christopher Dearlove<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%201245%20242194" value=3D"+441245242194" target=
=3D"_blank">+44 1245 242194</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%2012=
45%20242124" value=3D"+441245242124" target=3D"_blank">+44 1245 242124</a><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d;text=
-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | <a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.baesy=
stems.com</a><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-s=
erif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@i=
etf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jiazi YI<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 February 2014 15:37<br>
<b>To:</b> Christopher Dearlove<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.o=
rg</a> List; Thomas Clausen</span></p><div class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multito=
pology-02<u></u><u></u></div><p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;background:white" align=
=3D"center"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;background:white" align=
=3D"center"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<u></u><u></u></span=
></b></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center;back=
ground:white" align=3D"center">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"></span></i></p>
<div class=3D""><i><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
</i></div><i><em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-se=
rif&quot;">For information regarding </span>
</em></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial=
&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-ser=
if&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you receive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
here</a>.</span></em><div class=3D""><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></div><p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">No, you didn&#39;t mention it. However it&#39;s impo=
rtant to establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words for examp=
le, an instance of where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)<u></u><=
u></u></p>

</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agree.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question then is what do you mean by &quot;best =
effort&quot;? If you require single metric routes, and you don&#39;t have a=
ll the metrics (and it&#39;s undesirable to require that you do, my second =
point) then there is no best effort that will get you
 there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on the applications, there are two=
 possibilities:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers couldn&#39;t support =
the designated metric, then it&#39;s not considered - because it probably w=
on&#39;t be able to provide desired QoS.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; It&#39;s preferred to build routes u=
sing the metric required - but if not, we still want to have the packet del=
ivered in certain other way (best effort).&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Personally, I think we should provide the second pos=
sibility.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But if the WG believes that the second is not desire=
d, I&#39;ll respect the decision of the WG.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You can&#39;t decide at the origin to use a metric t=
hat gets you to the destination, based on what routing information for diff=
erent metrics you have, because unless you do something like modify the pac=
ket DSCP - if that&#39;s your usual way to
 choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you=
 can&#39;t let other routers know which metric you are using. And that may =
mean you end up using more than one metric, which we&#39;ve agreed is unacc=
eptable. And modifying packets in transit
 - even just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Christopher Dearlove<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.co=
m</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
s@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> =
(home)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or i=
nevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I&#39;ll just make two poi=
nts:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- First, that (for example) routing using more than =
one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail t=
o deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all cos=
ts.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that we shouldn&#39;t use more than one metr=
ic for a packet. I believe that I didn&#39;t mention it in my previous post=
s.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Second, there is no reason why all topologies shou=
ld be complete (include all routers). in fact it&#39;s not hard to think of=
 examples why not.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It&#39;s true that not all topologies should be comp=
lete. However, sometimes we probably want &quot;best effort&quot; services.=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I won&#39;t say that they are different.&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. Bu=
t as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it wor=
th to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on th=
is issue)?&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to m=
ake very sure that you didn&#39;t think that they were different problems.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the general sense, I think that there&#39;s nothi=
ng much (short of mandating &quot;thou shall always support metric XXX&quot=
; - which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol can do to gua=
rd against a deployment where the network operators
 are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (a=
n example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think for MANET, as we might face different kind o=
f interfaces/mediums, it&#39;s reasonable to consider that different metric=
s are used.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given such heterogeneous environment, it&#39;s expec=
ted that the protocol is as robust as possible.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> If such a router (OLSR without MT) i=
s the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the=
 source will not have a suitable<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; routin=
g table entry for the destination. <u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In such case, we would expect the packet can reach t=
he destination, even it doesn&#39;t use the same metric as others.&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d not object personally to a clearer caveat, b=
ut going back to the text that you quote, I think that it&#39;s pretty clea=
r already.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Thomas<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How is that problem any different than, say, a netwo=
rk running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type F=
OO and the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>
<br>
Thomas<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywher=
e from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported l=
ink<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not suppor=
ted by other MT-OLSR routers, then it&#39;s unlikely that it can participat=
e in the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without in=
tersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses =
C, D), then they can&#39;t be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I&#39;=
m thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type =
is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop=
-count, which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt; ________________=
_______________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
<p>********************************************************************</p>=
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Henning,

thank you for updating the draft. I am in favor of adopting it by the WG.
Experimental is likely the best status for it. The draft certainly needs
some editorial work, but I like the way it is structured, as well as the
general idea. Whether to allocate of a code point needs to be discussed.

Best regards
Ulrich

On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>w=
rote:

> [...]
>
> Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the
> authors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not real=
ly
> an appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document not a
> working group document yet?
>
>

--047d7b342d8a6746d404f2b25529
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Henning,<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra">thank you for updating the draft. I am in favor of adopti=
ng it by the WG. Experimental is likely the best status for it. The draft c=
ertainly needs some editorial work, but I like the way it is structured, as=
 well as the general idea. Whether to allocate of a code point needs to be =
discussed.<br>
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at=
 4:45 AM, Thomas Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@tho=
masclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">[...]<br>
<br>
Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the auth=
ors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not really an =
appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document not a working g=
roup document yet?<br>

<br></blockquote></div></div></div>

--047d7b342d8a6746d404f2b25529--


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So far I have sense positive interest from others including myself.  I =
recommend one ODMRP presentation be developed with time for =
questions,etc from the WG. =20

-Joe

On Feb 17, 2014, at 6:42 AM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:

> Dear WG chairs and secretary,
>=20
> If possible, I would like to request a slot for the next meeting to =
present the ODMRP and ODMRP-ASYM drafts recently submitted here: =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00 and =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00.
>=20
> Thank you,
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Axel
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">So far =
I have sense positive interest from others including myself. &nbsp;I =
recommend one ODMRP presentation be developed with time for =
questions,etc from the WG. =
&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>-Joe</div><div><br><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, =
at 6:42 AM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear =
WG chairs and secretary,<div><br></div><div>If possible, I would like to =
request a slot for the next meeting to present the ODMRP and ODMRP-ASYM =
drafts recently submitted here:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00">http://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00">http:/=
/tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</a>.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Thank =
you,</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div></d=
iv>_______________________________________________<br>manet mailing =
list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

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I am not aware of any open-source implementation of ODMRP. I agree that =
it would be a good thing, I'll see if I can have something started soon.
The latest draft currently supports multiple interfaces (although I =
think that there is still work to be done here), and the shift to =
RFC5444 packet format allows it to support IPv6 addresses as well.

Axel

Le 18 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 16:19, Joe Macker <jpmacker@gmail.com> a =E9crit =
:

>=20
> On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:00 PM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re =
<axel-ietf@axelcdv.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> Thanks a lot for your comments. A few replies:
>>=20
>> - The ODMRP paper referenced is from Mobile Networks and Application =
Journal, Vol.7 issue 6 from Dec. 2002., pp 441-453. The FGMP paper is =
from Cluster Computing June 1998, vol.1, issue 2, pp 187-196.
>>=20
>> - As for SMF vs ODMRP, I do not have definitive results pointing to =
the limit where one becomes more efficient than the other. However the =
idea of taking advantage of the relay set built by SMF should work to =
disseminate Join Queries, the same way it can be used for unicast =
routing protocols such as AODV. I believe it should lead to something =
relatively close to Elastic Multicast actually, except for the periodic =
flooding of Join Queries.
>=20
> SMF is also somewhat of a building block with different modes (CDS, =
elastic multicast) and the potential to build group-specific behavior on =
top of it basic profile.  =20
>=20
> One might ask more taxonomy based questions rather than SMF vs. ODMRP. =
Like ODMRP vs. classical flooding  or vs. CDS-flooding without group =
information (modes of SMF behavior) and then one has to also consider =
the traffic pattern dynamics and group distribution as in past studies =
of flood n=92 prune  vs. core based multicast.  Likely no one size fits =
all.
>=20
> I personally like the ideas behind ODMRP as it covers a particular =
good taxonomy area.  Unfortunately the group scope back its work on =
multicast in the past to make progress.  I personally feel the time is =
right to rework some of these issues. =20
>=20
> If modernized with newer capabilities such as multiple interfaces,IPv6 =
support (one the reasons to reinvigorate older design) It will be a good =
area of engineering work in my opinion.
>=20
> It would be nice to know more about any progress related to any =
potential open reference implementations.
>=20
> -Joe
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> - The idea behind ODMRP-ASYM could also very probably apply to a =
protocol such as Elastic Multicast: I think that routing the EM-ACK =
packet around the unidirectional link could work. The only issue would =
be that the relay set selection only uses bidirectional links as well, =
which is something that ODMRP (with or without SMF) would not have to =
deal with.
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Axel
>>=20
>> Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 18:16, Brian Adamson =
<brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil> a =E9crit :
>>=20
>>> The Elastic Multicast (draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept =
we presented at the last IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM =
version) with respect to them both being a form of flood and prune (well =
more of a graft with "downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of =
the SMF flooding mesh alive on a group-specific basis).  With Elastic =
Multicast, there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF =
flooding behavior where there are high dynamics.  I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP.  As with =
other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances.  It =
would be interesting to have implementations of both available for =
comparison and exploration of these tradeoffs.
>>>=20
>>> Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and the ODMRP-ASYM protocol =
was initiated under the same ONR-sponsored effort as the Elastic =
Multicast and there was some discussion consideration towards =
instantiating  ODMRP on top of the SMF flooding mesh.  Since the new =
odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, I haven't seen if that idea was =
adopted, but it could be worth consideration.  With ODMRP-ASYM, there =
would be a difference here since the current SMF relay set selection =
algorithms require reciprocal (bi-directional) links.
>>>=20
>>> Given some potential interest in addressing group-specific multicast =
within MANET, it may be worthwhile to outline some of the various =
multicast routing requirements for MANET including group management, =
gateway interaction with other routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected =
application/transport protocol needs and behaviors.  There may be some =
common aspects (e.g. group membership mechanisms, management, etc) =
regardless of the specific routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, =
proactive, etc)
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> cheers,
>>>=20
>>> Brian
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" =
<Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad result (for =
SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you might as well =
just use the other all the time.
>>>> =20
>>>> --
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>>>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>>>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>>>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>>>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>>>=20
>>>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>>>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
>>>> Sent: 17 February 2014 16:00
>>>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>>>> Cc: soon Oh; <manet@ietf.org> List; Mario Gerla
>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> *** WARNING ***
>>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from =
an external partner or the internet.
>>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if and when it =
becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] flood=94. =
And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) reliable.
>>>> =20
>>>> Absolutely. To quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" =
and "maintaining the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than =
just flooding. this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.
>>>> =20
>>>> [While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not =
going all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an =
instance of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that =
some benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. =
On the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same =
device, are we expecting synergy or conflict?]
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Obvious limiting cases are everyone is in the multicast group, and =
very small number in multicast group.
>>>> =20
>>>> Yes, everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the =
interesting cases :D
>>>> =20
>>>> Thomas
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> --
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>>>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>>>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>>>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>>>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>>>=20
>>>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>>>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>>>> =20
>>>> From: Thomas Clausen [mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org]=20
>>>> Sent: 17 February 2014 13:39
>>>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>>>> Cc: Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re; <manet@ietf.org> List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla
>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> *** WARNING ***
>>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from =
an external partner or the internet.
>>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>> =20
>>>> On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with SMF. Is there anyone =
with experience of both? Published results?
>>>> =20
>>>> That was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not =
entirely comparable in that the former does group management whereas the =
latter does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) =
that there would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total =
network load than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group =
members being topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa also.
>>>> =20
>>>> I agree that published results on this would be interesting - =
caveating with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a =
scenario where it won't work as well as XXXX", of course.
>>>> =20
>>>> There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)
>>>> =20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> =20
>>>> Thomas
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> --
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
>>>> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
>>>> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
>>>> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
>>>> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>>>>=20
>>>> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
>>>> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace =
Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>>>> =20
>>>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Axel Colin =
de Verdi=E8re
>>>> Sent: 17 February 2014 11:38
>>>> To: <manet@ietf.org> List
>>>> Cc: soon Oh; gerla
>>>> Subject: [manet] Fwd: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> *** WARNING ***
>>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from =
an external partner or the internet.
>>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
>>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here.
>>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>>>=20
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> =20
>>>> We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish to revive if =
there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been rewritten to use =
the RFC5444 packet format.
>>>> =20
>>>> We also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension =
of ODMRP that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00. Given =
the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it can be a =
useful alternative to blacklisting such links.
>>>> =20
>>>> Any feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.
>>>> =20
>>>> Thank you,
>>>> =20
>>>> Axel
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> De: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Objet: New Version Notification for draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> Date: 14 f=E9vrier 2014 22:21:54 UTC+1
>>>> =C0: "Yunjung Yi" <unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com>, =
"William Su" <unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com>, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" <axel@axelcdv.com>, "Sung-Ju Lee" =
<unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com>, Mario Gerla =
<gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, "Professor Mario Gerla" <gerla@cs.ucla.edu>, Axel =
Colin de Verdiere <axel@axelcdv.com>
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> has been successfully submitted by Axel Colin de Verdiere and =
posted to the
>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>=20
>>>> Name:              draft-gerla-manet-odmrp
>>>> Revision:         00
>>>> Title:                On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) =
for Ad Hoc Networks
>>>> Document date:          2014-02-14
>>>> Group:             Individual Submission
>>>> Pages:              29
>>>> URL:            =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt
>>>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/
>>>> Htmlized:       =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>   The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol (ODMRP) is a multicast
>>>>   routing protocol designed for ad hoc networks with mobile hosts.
>>>>   ODMRP is a mesh-based, rather than a conventional tree-based,
>>>>   multicast scheme and uses a forwarding group concept (only a =
subset
>>>>   of nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding).  It
>>>>   applies on-demand procedures to dynamically build routes and =
maintain
>>>>   multicast group membership.  ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc =
wireless
>>>>   networks with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, topology
>>>>   changes frequently and rapidly, and power is constrained.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at =
tools.ietf.org.
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>> =
********************************************************************
>>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>>>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>>>> =
********************************************************************
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
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>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>> =20
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_1A9E857A-E511-48D4-8684-B5561A1AD035
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">I am =
not aware of any open-source implementation of ODMRP. I agree that it =
would be a good thing, I'll see if I can have something started =
soon.<div>The latest draft currently supports multiple interfaces =
(although I think that there is still work to be done here), and the =
shift to RFC5444 packet format allows it to support IPv6 addresses as =
well.</div><div><br></div><div>Axel<br><div><br><div><div>Le 18 f=E9vr. =
2014 =E0 16:19, Joe Macker &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jpmacker@gmail.com">jpmacker@gmail.com</a>&gt; a =E9crit =
:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div><br></div><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 1:00 =
PM, Axel Colin de Verdi=E8re &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel-ietf@axelcdv.com">axel-ietf@axelcdv.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
all,<div><br></div><div>Thanks a lot for your comments. A few =
replies:</div><div><br></div><div>- The ODMRP paper referenced is from =
Mobile Networks and Application Journal, Vol.7 issue 6 from Dec. 2002., =
pp 441-453. The FGMP paper is from Cluster Computing June 1998, vol.1, =
issue 2, pp 187-196.</div><div><br></div><div>- As for SMF vs ODMRP, I =
do not have definitive results pointing to the limit where one becomes =
more efficient than the other. However the idea of taking advantage of =
the relay set built by SMF should work to disseminate Join Queries, the =
same way it can be used for unicast routing protocols such as AODV. I =
believe it should lead to something relatively close to Elastic =
Multicast actually, except for the periodic flooding of Join =
Queries.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>SMF is also somewhat of =
a building block with different modes (CDS, elastic multicast) and the =
potential to build group-specific behavior on top of it basic profile. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>One might ask more taxonomy based =
questions rather than SMF vs. ODMRP. Like ODMRP vs. classical flooding =
&nbsp;or vs. CDS-flooding without group information (modes of SMF =
behavior) and then one has to also consider the traffic pattern dynamics =
and group distribution as in past studies of flood n=92 prune &nbsp;vs. =
core based multicast. &nbsp;Likely no one size fits =
all.</div><div><br></div><div>I personally like the ideas behind ODMRP =
as it covers a particular good taxonomy area. &nbsp;Unfortunately the =
group scope back its work on multicast in the past to make progress. =
&nbsp;I personally feel the time is right to rework some of these =
issues. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>If modernized with newer =
capabilities such as multiple interfaces,IPv6 support (one the reasons =
to reinvigorate older design) It will be a good area of engineering work =
in my opinion.</div><div><br></div><div>It would be nice to know more =
about any progress related to any potential open reference =
implementations.</div><div><br></div><div>-Joe</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;"><div><br></div><div>- The idea behind ODMRP-ASYM =
could also very probably apply to a protocol such as Elastic Multicast: =
I think that routing the EM-ACK packet around the unidirectional link =
could work. The only issue would be that the relay set selection only =
uses bidirectional links as well, which is something that ODMRP (with or =
without SMF) would not have to deal =
with.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Axel</div><d=
iv><br><div><div>Le 17 f=E9vr. 2014 =E0 18:16, Brian Adamson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil">brian.adamson@nrl.navy.mil</a>&=
gt; a =E9crit :</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><base href=3D"x-msg://190/"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">The Elastic Multicast =
(draft-adamson-manet-elasticmcast-00) concept we presented at the last =
IETF is very similar to ODMRP (the non-ASYM version) with respect to =
them both being a form of flood and prune (well more of a graft with =
"downstream" routers ACKing to keep that portion of the SMF flooding =
mesh alive on a group-specific basis). &nbsp;With Elastic Multicast, =
there is a natural devo-lution (morphing) to more meshy, SMF flooding =
behavior where there are high dynamics. &nbsp;I would also note that =
Elastic Multicast uses the proactively-created flooding topology (per =
NHDP and SMF relay set selection and possibly metric-based approaches to =
getting there) as opposed to an "on demand" approach per ODMRP. &nbsp;As =
with other proactive vs. reactive (on demand) MANET tradeoffs, there is =
probably utility in both approaches for different circumstances. =
&nbsp;It would be interesting to have implementations of both available =
for comparison and exploration of these =
tradeoffs.<div><br></div><div>Some of the more recent work on ODMRP and =
the ODMRP-ASYM protocol was initiated under the same ONR-sponsored =
effort as the Elastic Multicast and there was some discussion =
consideration towards instantiating &nbsp;ODMRP on top of the SMF =
flooding mesh. &nbsp;Since the new odmrp-00 draft isn't accessible yet, =
I haven't seen if that idea was adopted, but it could be worth =
consideration. &nbsp;With ODMRP-ASYM, there would be a difference here =
since the current SMF relay set selection algorithms require reciprocal =
(bi-directional) links.</div><div><br></div><div>Given some potential =
interest in addressing group-specific multicast within MANET, it may be =
worthwhile to outline some of the various multicast routing requirements =
for MANET including group management, gateway interaction with other =
routing domains (e.g., PIM), expected application/transport protocol =
needs and behaviors. &nbsp;There may be some common aspects (e.g. group =
membership mechanisms, management, etc) regardless of the specific =
routing mechanism (e.g. whether reactive, proactive, =
etc)<br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Brian</div><div><br><div><div>On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:06 AM, "Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: inherit; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The limiting cases have their uses. If you get a bad =
result (for SMF or ODMRP) at the relevant extreme (consistently), you =
might as well just use the other all the =
time.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">--<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">BAE =
Systems (Operations) Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box =
87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, =
UK<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thomas Clausen =
[mailto:thomas@<a href=3D"http://thomasclausen.org/" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
16:00<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon =
Oh; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt; List; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; "><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: red; ">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; ">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
17 Feb 2014, at 16:56, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">What=92s needed is some sort of quantification of if =
and when it becomes =93not worth being clever, let=92s just [optimised] =
flood=94. And of whether [optimised] flooding is more (or less) =
reliable.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Absolutely. To =
quantify it a bit more, when does "group management" and "maintaining =
the broadcast tree/graph" become more "expensive" than just flooding. =
this would be good to see discussed in the applicability =
statement.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">[While we're at the applicability statement, but of course not going =
all the way of a full review, how would ODMRP interact with an instance =
of OLSRv2 running on the same router? As in SMF, I imagine that some =
benefits could be drawn from the topology view acquired by OLSRv2. On =
the same token, if SMF and ODMRP are, both, running on the same device, =
are we expecting synergy or conflict?]<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Obvious limiting cases are =
everyone is in the multicast group, and very small number in multicast =
group.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Yes, =
everything "less than everybody" and "more than two" are the interesting =
cases :D<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">Thomas Clausen [<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
13:39<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Axel =
Colin de Verdi=E8re; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List; soon Oh; Mario =
Gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Fwd: New =
Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Chris,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">On 17 Feb 2014, at 14:28, Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The obvious question is comparing ODMRP with =
SMF. Is there anyone with experience of both? Published =
results?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">That =
was also one of my questions, alas, I think that they're not entirely =
comparable in that the former does group management whereas the latter =
does "optimized flooding". Thus, I'd suspect (at least, hope) that there =
would be scenarios where ODMRP incurs a vastly lower total network load =
than SMF (say, a big network and a small group with group members being =
topologically far apart) and possibly vice-versa =
also.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">I =
agree that published results on this would be interesting - caveating =
with the usual "show me a protocol, and I'll come up with a scenario =
where it won't work as well as XXXX", of =
course.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">There are a few informative references in ODMRP - to the Authors, =
those references are actually incomplete, I couldn't easily figure out =
where I could dig out [ODMRP-Journal] for reading more (I also note that =
the year for that reference is missing, is that recent work, or =
1998-work?)<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thomas<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">--</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Christopher =
Dearlove</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications =
Group<br>Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>BAE =
Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>West Hanningfield Road, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Fax: +44 1245 242124</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
text-decoration: none; ">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>|<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.baesystems.com</span></a><br><br>BAE Systems (Operations) =
Limited<br>Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough =
Aerospace Centre, Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>Registered in =
England &amp; Wales No: =
1996687</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:=
 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Axel Colin de =
Verdi=E8re<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 February 2014 =
11:38<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">manet@ietf.org</span></a>&gt; List<br><b>Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>soon Oh; =
gerla<br><b>Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] Fwd: New Version =
Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><di=
v style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt; "><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white; "><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white; "><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, =
57, 114); ">*** WARNING ***</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial; "><em><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">This =
message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
">For information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong><i><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red; =
">Red Flags</span></i></strong><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); ">that you can =
look out for in emails you receive, click</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); =
">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">here</span></a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114); "><br><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; ">If you feel the email is =
suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">this =
process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; ">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">We submitted a new version for ODMRP, which we wish =
to revive if there's interest in the WG. In particular, it has been =
rewritten to use the RFC5444 packet =
format.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">We =
also submitted a new experimental draft specifying an extension of ODMRP =
that allows it to make use of unidirectional links. Here's the =
link:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-asym-00</span></a>. =
Given the characteristics of certain MANET deployments, we believe it =
can be a useful alternative to blacklisting such =
links.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">Any =
feedback or comment on those documents would be very =
appreciated.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Thank you,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">Axel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">D=E9but du message r=E9exp=E9di=E9 :<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">De:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; "><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">internet-drafts@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><d=
iv style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Objet: New Version Notification for =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span></b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, =
sans-serif; ">Date:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">14 f=E9vrier 2014 =
22:21:54 UTC+1</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><b><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">=C0:<span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif; ">"Yunjung Yi" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Yunjung-Yi@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "William Su" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-William-Su@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, "Axel Coli =
Verdiere" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;, "Sung-Ju Lee" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">unknown-email-Sung-Ju-Lee@ietfa.amsl.com</span></a>&gt;, Mario Gerla =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, "Professor Mario Gerla" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gerla@cs.ucla.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">gerla@cs.ucla.edu</span></a>&gt;, Axel Colin de Verdiere &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:axel@axelcdv.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; "><span style=3D"color: purple; =
">axel@axelcdv.com</span></a>&gt;</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><br>A new version of I-D, =
draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt<br>has been successfully submitted by =
Axel Colin de Verdiere and posted to the<br>IETF =
repository.<br><br>Name:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>draft-gerla-manet-odmrp<br>Re=
vision:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<=
/span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>00<br>Title:<span=
 =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>On-Demand Multicast Routing =
Protocol (ODMRP) for Ad Hoc Networks<br>Document date:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2014-02-14<br>Group:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Individual =
Submission<br>Pages:<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>29<br>URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00.txt</span=
></a><br>Status: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp/</span></a><br>=
Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; "><span =
style=3D"color: purple; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gerla-manet-odmrp-00</span></a><br><br>=
<br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;The On-Demand Multicast Routing Protocol =
(ODMRP) is a multicast<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;routing protocol designed for ad =
hoc networks with mobile hosts.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;ODMRP is a mesh-based, =
rather than a conventional tree-based,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast scheme =
and uses a forwarding group concept (only a subset<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;of =
nodes forwards the multicast packets via scoped flooding). =
&nbsp;It<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;applies on-demand procedures to dynamically =
build routes and maintain<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;multicast group membership. =
&nbsp;ODMRP is well suited for ad hoc wireless<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;networks =
with mobile hosts where bandwidth is limited, =
topology<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;changes frequently and rapidly, and power is =
constrained.<br><br><br><br><br>Please note that it may take a couple of =
minutes from the time of submission<br>until the htmlized version and =
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 href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" style=3D"color: purple; =
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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org List" <manet@ietf.org>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
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Thank you all for your detailed explanation.

It's clear to me what's the preference of most WG participants.

I think it would be helpful to include some of the points in the draft, to
clarify the issue.

cheers

Jiazi





On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 6:40 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

>  Agree with those points, which overlap with mine, but aren't identical.
> (I agree with Thomas's non-overlapping details too).
>
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
>
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre=
,
> Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
>
>
>
> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Thomas
> Clausen
> *Sent:* 18 February 2014 15:58
> *To:* Jiazi YI
> *Cc:* Christopher Dearlove; manet@ietf.org List
>
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] comments on
> draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
> On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>  Hi,
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   No, you didn't mention it. However it's important to establish. (And it
> provides, as I indicated by the words for example, an instance of where t=
he
> best thing to do is to drop a packet.)
>
>
>
> agree.
>
>
>
>
>
> The question then is what do you mean by "best effort"? If you require
> single metric routes, and you don't have all the metrics (and it's
> undesirable to require that you do, my second point) then there is no bes=
t
> effort that will get you there.
>
>
>
> I think depending on the applications, there are two possibilities:
>
>
>
>   -   If the routers couldn't support the designated metric, then it's no=
t
> considered - because it probably won't be able to provide desired QoS.
>
>
>
>   -   It's preferred to build routes using the metric required - but if
> not, we still want to have the packet delivered in certain other way (bes=
t
> effort).
>
>
>
> Personally, I think we should provide the second possibility.
>
> But if the WG believes that the second is not desired, I'll respect the
> decision of the WG.
>
>
>
>
>
> I think that we should be careful not to restrict unnecessarily.
>
>
>
> If we do *not* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always"
> (where "X" may be "hop count"), that doesn't preclude that you deploy a
> network, wherein the requirement for participation is for all devices to =
be
> "provisioned with hop-count metrics", but it is also encouraged - and eve=
n
> expected - for a router to support some better metrics also. Ensuring tha=
t
> such a requirement is met would be part of the same provisioning process
> that you go through to get cryptographic material to the routers for
> message authentication, for example, and could even be made a prerequisit=
e
> for a router to get such material ;)
>
>
>
> If we *do* stipulate in the spec "you MUST support metric X always" (wher=
e
> "X" may be "hop count"), then it'd technically be non-conformant to build=
 a
> network which doesn't -- and I want to be able to build such a network,
> since (in some cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no path.
>
>
>
> For example: it'll be a futile waste of battery to try to send data
> through the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, the pathological
> example here will be the well-known situation wherein broadcast is sent a=
t
> a lower datarate than unicast -- and I'd much rather get a "No Route to
> Host" immediately, than wait for the inevitable timeout..
>
>
>
> Now, some might say "then make default metric X to be something different
> from hop-count". There's a veritable sm=F8rrebr=F8dsbord ("smorgadsbord" =
for
> those into deforming good Danish words ;) ) of metrics to choose from "ou=
t
> there", and choosing one would be a rathole worth (at least) a decade of
> discussions...discussions, that won't bring us any closer to reaching any
> agreement: different deployments have different requirements, and differe=
nt
> media exhibit different characteristics.
>
>
>
> So, in summary
>
>
>
>             o          Specifying a
> mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will actually restrict som=
e
> scenarios that I consider to be important.
>
>
>
>             o          Not specifying a
> mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the current approach) doe=
s
> not prevent anyone from making
>
>                         that an additional requirement in a deployment.
>
>
>
>             o          Agreeing on a "good default metric" is a rat-hole
> I don't think we should drag ourselves into - it's deployment specific.
>
>
>
> Bottom line:
>
>
>
>             o          Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed:
> they will hurt, but they won't help.
>
>
>
> Cheerios,
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>   best
>
>
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can't decide at the origin to use a metric that gets you to the
> destination, based on what routing information for different metrics you
> have, because unless you do something like modify the packet DSCP - if
> that's your usual way to choose metric, if not similar comments would app=
ly
> to an alternative - you can't let other routers know which metric you are
> using. And that may mean you end up using more than one metric, which we'=
ve
> agreed is unacceptable. And modifying packets in transit - even just to
> change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>  Hi,
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or inevitable) are among
> the things to be discussed. I'll just make two points:
>
> - First, that (for example) routing using more than one metric to deliver
> a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail to deliver. Failure t=
o
> deliver is not something to try to prevent at all costs.
>
>
>
> I agree that we shouldn't use more than one metric for a packet. I believ=
e
> that I didn't mention it in my previous posts.
>
>
>
>  - Second, there is no reason why all topologies should be complete
> (include all routers). in fact it's not hard to think of examples why not=
.
>
>
>
>
>
> It's true that not all topologies should be complete. However, sometimes
> we probably want "best effort" services.
>
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:
>
>
>
>  Hi,
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org=
>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>  I won't say that they are different.
>
> However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. But as long as multiple
> metrics are discussed in this context, I think it worth to paying more
> attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on this issue)?
>
>
>
>
>
> Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to make very sure that yo=
u
> didn't think that they were different problems.
>
>
>
> In the general sense, I think that there's nothing much (short of
> mandating "thou shall always support metric XXX" - which, alas, has its o=
wn
> set of problems) that a protocol can do to guard against a deployment whe=
re
> the network operators are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot
> themselves in the foot (an example: define "C" differently in OLSRv2
> routers).
>
>
>
>
>
> I think for MANET, as we might face different kind of interfaces/mediums,
> it's reasonable to consider that different metrics are used.
>
> Given such heterogeneous environment, it's expected that the protocol is
> as robust as possible.
>
>
>
> For example,
>
>
>
>  If such a router (OLSR without MT) is the destination, then the packet w=
ill never reach its destination, as the source will not have a suitable
>
>       routing table entry for the destination.
>
>
>
>  In such case, we would expect the packet can reach the destination, even
> it doesn't use the same metric as others.
>
>
>
> best
>
>
>
> Jiazi
>
>
>
>
>
> I'd not object personally to a clearer caveat, but going back to the text
> that you quote, I think that it's pretty clear already.
>
>
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>   Jiazi
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org=
>
> wrote:
>
> How is that problem any different than, say, a network running OLSRv2 (no=
t
> -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type FOO and the other half
> the routers use metric type BAR?
>
> Thomas
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.
> >
> > Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its
> interoperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different
> set of metrics.
> >
> > Although it is mentioned that
> >
> > " a bad
> >   collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywhere from
> inefficient to
> >   non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported link
> >   metric types across the MANET."
> >
> > and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I
> still feel this issues should be more elaborated.
> > What I understood is that:
> >
> >       o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not supported by other
> MT-OLSR routers, then it's unlikely that it can participate in the networ=
k.
> >
> >       o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without intersection (for
> example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses C, D), then th=
ey
> can't be interconnected either.
> >
> > I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability
> statement.
> >
> > It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I'm
> thinking about some possibilities like:
> >
> >       o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type is unknown, or
> >
> >       o Define a "default" metric such as hop-count, which should be
> supported by all routers.
> >
> > best
> >
> > Jiazi
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
> ********************************************************************
>
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>
>

--047d7bfcf35cf903c604f2b52361
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you all for your detailed explanation.&nbsp;<div><br=
></div><div>It&#39;s clear to me what&#39;s the preference of most WG parti=
cipants.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I think it would be helpful to incl=
ude some of the points in the draft, to clarify the issue.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br></div><div>cheers</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 6:40 PM, Dearlove, Christ=
opher (UK) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystem=
s.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Agree with those points, =
which overlap with mine, but aren&rsquo;t identical. (I agree with Thomas&r=
squo;s non-overlapping details too).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">--
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Christopher Dearlove<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Senior Principal Engineer=
, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%201245%20242194" value=3D"+441245242194" target=
=3D"_blank">+44 1245 242194</a>&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: <a href=3D"tel:%2B44%2012=
45%20242124" value=3D"+441245242124" target=3D"_blank">+44 1245 242124</a><=
u></u><u></u></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.d=
earlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d;text=
-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | <a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">http://www.baesy=
stems.com</a><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">BAE Systems (Operations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div><div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Thomas Clausen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 18 February 2014 15:58<br>
<b>To:</b> Jiazi YI<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Christopher Dearlove; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a> List</span></p><div class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] comments on draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multito=
pology-02<u></u><u></u></div><p></p>
</div>
</div><div class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgrou=
nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<u></u><u></u></span><=
/b></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-=
align:center;background:white">
<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
s-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organ=
isation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#333972"><br>

<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Co=
nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment=
s or reply.</span></em><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">Fo=
r information regarding </span>
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g><em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you rec=
eive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
tlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
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rial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<em><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If=
 you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
this process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div><div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 18 Feb 2014, at 16:37, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 12:27 AM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">No, you didn&#39;t mention it. However it&#39;s impo=
rtant to establish. (And it provides, as I indicated by the words for examp=
le, an instance of where the best thing to do is to drop a packet.)<u></u><=
u></u></p>

</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">agree.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question then is what do you mean by &quot;best =
effort&quot;? If you require single metric routes, and you don&#39;t have a=
ll the metrics (and it&#39;s undesirable to require that you do, my second =
point) then there is no best effort that will get you
 there.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think depending on the applications, there are two=
 possibilities:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; If the routers couldn&#39;t support =
the designated metric, then it&#39;s not considered - because it probably w=
on&#39;t be able to provide desired QoS.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; - &nbsp; It&#39;s preferred to build routes u=
sing the metric required - but if not, we still want to have the packet del=
ivered in certain other way (best effort).&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Personally, I think we should provide the second pos=
sibility.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But if the WG believes that the second is not desire=
d, I&#39;ll respect the decision of the WG.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think that we should be careful not to restrict un=
necessarily.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we do *not* stipulate in the spec &quot;you MUST =
support metric X always&quot; (where &quot;X&quot; may be &quot;hop count&q=
uot;), that doesn&#39;t preclude that you deploy a network, wherein the req=
uirement for participation is for all devices to be &quot;provisioned with
 hop-count metrics&quot;, but it is also encouraged - and even expected - f=
or a router to support some better metrics also. Ensuring that such a requi=
rement is met would be part of the same provisioning process that you go th=
rough to get cryptographic material to
 the routers for message authentication, for example, and could even be mad=
e a prerequisite for a router to get such material ;)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If we *do* stipulate in the spec &quot;you MUST supp=
ort metric X always&quot; (where &quot;X&quot; may be &quot;hop count&quot;=
), then it&#39;d technically be non-conformant to build a network which doe=
sn&#39;t -- and I want to be able to build such a network, since (in some
 cases) a hop-count-path will be worse than no path.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example: it&#39;ll be a futile waste of battery =
to try to send data through the path discovered using the X-metric -- and, =
the pathological example here will be the well-known situation wherein broa=
dcast is sent at a lower datarate than
 unicast -- and I&#39;d much rather get a &quot;No Route to Host&quot; imme=
diately, than wait for the inevitable timeout..<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now, some might say &quot;then make default metric X=
 to be something different from hop-count&quot;. There&#39;s a veritable sm=
=F8rrebr=F8dsbord (&quot;smorgadsbord&quot; for those into deforming good D=
anish words ;) ) of metrics to choose from &quot;out there&quot;, and choos=
ing
 one would be a rathole worth (at least) a decade of discussions...discussi=
ons, that won&#39;t bring us any closer to reaching any agreement: differen=
t deployments have different requirements, and different media exhibit diff=
erent characteristics.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So, in summary&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric will act=
ually restrict some scenarios that I consider to be important.&nbsp;<u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Not specifying a mandatory-to-implement/mandatory-to-use metric (the=
 current approach) does not prevent anyone from making&nbsp;<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
that an additional requirement in a deployment.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Agreeing on a &quot;good default metric&quot; is a rat-hole I don&#3=
9;t think we should drag ourselves into - it&#39;s deployment specific.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Bottom line:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>o<span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Restrictions of that sort should not be imposed: they will hurt, but=
 they won&#39;t help.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Cheerios,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thomas<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You can&#39;t decide at the origin to use a metric t=
hat gets you to the destination, based on what routing information for diff=
erent metrics you have, because unless you do something like modify the pac=
ket DSCP - if that&#39;s your usual way to
 choose metric, if not similar comments would apply to an alternative - you=
 can&#39;t let other routers know which metric you are using. And that may =
mean you end up using more than one metric, which we&#39;ve agreed is unacc=
eptable. And modifying packets in transit
 - even just to change a DSCP - may also be unacceptable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Christopher Dearlove<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.co=
m</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><a href=3D"mailto:chri=
s@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> =
(home)<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 22:56, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 10:48 PM, Christopher Dearlo=
ve &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The issues about what is and is not acceptable (or i=
nevitable) are among the things to be discussed. I&#39;ll just make two poi=
nts:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- First, that (for example) routing using more than =
one metric to deliver a packet is a bad idea, it can loop. Better to fail t=
o deliver. Failure to deliver is not something to try to prevent at all cos=
ts.<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I agree that we shouldn&#39;t use more than one metr=
ic for a packet. I believe that I didn&#39;t mention it in my previous post=
s.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Second, there is no reason why all topologies shou=
ld be complete (include all routers). in fact it&#39;s not hard to think of=
 examples why not.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It&#39;s true that not all topologies should be comp=
lete. However, sometimes we probably want &quot;best effort&quot; services.=
&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 21:04, Jiazi YI wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:52 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 17 Feb 2014, at 18:44, Jiazi YI &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I won&#39;t say that they are different.&nbsp;<u></u=
><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, in OLSRv2, only a single metric is used. Bu=
t as long as multiple metrics are discussed in this context, I think it wor=
th to paying more attention (maybe I missed some previous discussions on th=
is issue)?&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fair enough, we can discuss this. I just wanted to m=
ake very sure that you didn&#39;t think that they were different problems.<=
u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In the general sense, I think that there&#39;s nothi=
ng much (short of mandating &quot;thou shall always support metric XXX&quot=
; - which, alas, has its own set of problems) that a protocol can do to gua=
rd against a deployment where the network operators
 are going through extraordinary lengths to shoot themselves in the foot (a=
n example: define &quot;C&quot; differently in OLSRv2 routers).<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think for MANET, as we might face different kind o=
f interfaces/mediums, it&#39;s reasonable to consider that different metric=
s are used.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given such heterogeneous environment, it&#39;s expec=
ted that the protocol is as robust as possible.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For example,&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"> If such a router (OLSR without MT) i=
s the destination, then the packet will never reach its destination, as the=
 source will not have a suitable<u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; routin=
g table entry for the destination. <u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></pre>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In such case, we would expect the packet can reach t=
he destination, even it doesn&#39;t use the same metric as others.&nbsp;<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">best<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;d not object personally to a clearer caveat, b=
ut going back to the text that you quote, I think that it&#39;s pretty clea=
r already.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">Thomas<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jiazi<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Thomas Clausen &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">thomas@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How is that problem any different than, say, a netwo=
rk running OLSRv2 (not -MT), but wherein half the routers use metric type F=
OO and the other half the routers use metric type BAR?<br>
<br>
Thomas<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
On 17 Feb 2014, at 17:50, Jiazi Yi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">yi.jiazi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; Dear all,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I had a review of draft-dearlove-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-02.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Without going into details for the moment, my main concern is its inte=
roperability between OLSRv2 (without MT), and routers using different set o=
f metrics.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Although it is mentioned that<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot; a bad<br>
&gt; &nbsp; collective choice (of metric types) will make the MANET anywher=
e from inefficient to<br>
&gt; &nbsp; non-functional, so care will be needed in selecting supported l=
ink<br>
&gt; &nbsp; metric types across the MANET.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; and there some discussions in the Management Considerations section, I=
 still feel this issues should be more elaborated.<br>
&gt; What I understood is that:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If an OLSR router uses a metric type not suppor=
ted by other MT-OLSR routers, then it&#39;s unlikely that it can participat=
e in the network.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o If MT-OLSR routers uses metric types without in=
tersection (for example, Router 1 uses metric types A,B, and Router 2 uses =
C, D), then they can&#39;t be interconnected either.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the compatibility issues should be raised in the applicability=
 statement.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It would be even better if it can be addressed in certain ways. I&#39;=
m thinking about some possibilities like:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o A metric is set to MAX value, if a metric type =
is unknown, or<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; o Define a &quot;default&quot; metric such as hop=
-count, which should be supported by all routers.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; best<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Jiazi<br>
&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt; ________________=
_______________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<p>********************************************************************</p>=
<div class=3D""><br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
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I think this draft is interesting and looking forward to more
discussions/work on it.

One general question:

In the draft, the term "mesh network" is used. No "ad hoc" or MANET is
mentioned.
Although there are various definitions of "mesh network", it's generally
regarded as (physically) static network. Does it mean that this metric is
more used for such kind of community mesh network, not for "Mobile" ad hoc
network? (Of course, this brings what's "mobile" for MANET - I mean moving
routers here). Or it is just we don't have experience on this point yet?

best

Jiazi






On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Thomas Clausen
> <thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> > Thank you for that, Henning....I worried if this important work was
> withering since the previous I-D had expired - I am glad that it hadn't,
> and that you request a slot to present in London. In case the WG chairs
> need signs of support in order to grant that slot, then here's a sign fro=
m
> me that it's important.
>
> I am looking forward to London.
>
> > I've quickly read through the I-D over the weekend, and while a detaile=
d
> review will follow (brace yourself ;) - no seriously, I found just a few
> nits)
>
> Looking forward to more feedback.
>
> > I was wondering about one big-picture item: I know that you have quite
> some operational experience with OLSR networks, and that in those you are
> not using hop-count metrics ;) Is this the precise metric that you are
> using?
>
> No.
>
> OLSR.org RFC 3626 extension uses ETX and cannot change it without
> breaking the compatibility to old nodes.
>
> > Or, to put it in another way, is there any operational experience with
> this metric?
>
> I have implemented it for my OLSRv2 code and we have used it in our
> testbed, but unfortunately thats a quite limited test.
>
> The implementation uses slightly different limits for ETX and
> upper/lower datarate, but I have yet to hear a WG opinion what these
> values should be.
>
> > Appendix A kinda-sorta leads me to believe that this I-D documents a
> slight deviation from what you've actually been using in your deployments=
,
> but that may be an incorrect interpretation.
>
> Unfortunately I am yet to hear about a community mesh network that
> tried to deploy OLSRv2.
>
> > Another big-picture question that I have is the status of this document=
,
> I am not sure if "Informational" is quite right; it might be
> "Experimental", also, or something else? What makes me wonder about this =
is
> that it kinda-sorta imposes behavior (thou shalt have a packet sequence
> number....) on an implementation that reaches beyond just "internal
> processing". I note that this is not a problem with this I-D as such, thi=
s
> is just an artefact of IETF processes....
>
> As I said during the IETF in Berlin I am not sure what "status" this
> document should be... most likely "experimental".
>
> "informal" was the easiest solution for the private draft until the WG
> decides what to do with this document.
>
> > Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the
> authors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not real=
ly
> an appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document not a
> working group document yet?
>
> I think we can/should talk about this in London.
>
> Henning Rogge
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--047d7bb03afc679f5b04f2b571e9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think this draft is interesting and looking forward to m=
ore discussions/work on it.=A0<div><br></div><div>One general question:</di=
v><div><br></div><div>In the draft, the term &quot;mesh network&quot; is us=
ed. No &quot;ad hoc&quot; or MANET is mentioned.=A0</div>
<div>Although there are various definitions of &quot;mesh network&quot;, it=
&#39;s generally regarded as (physically) static network. Does it mean that=
 this metric is more used for such kind of community mesh network, not for =
&quot;Mobile&quot; ad hoc network? (Of course, this brings what&#39;s &quot=
;mobile&quot; for MANET - I mean moving routers here). Or it is just we don=
&#39;t have experience on this point yet?</div>
<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Hen=
ning Rogge <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 1:45=
 PM, Thomas Clausen<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas@thomasclausen.org">thomas@thomasclausen.org</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Thank you for that, Henning....I worried if this important work was wi=
thering since the previous I-D had expired - I am glad that it hadn&#39;t, =
and that you request a slot to present in London. In case the WG chairs nee=
d signs of support in order to grant that slot, then here&#39;s a sign from=
 me that it&#39;s important.<br>

<br>
</div>I am looking forward to London.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; I&#39;ve quickly read through the I-D over the weekend, and while a de=
tailed review will follow (brace yourself ;) - no seriously, I found just a=
 few nits)<br>
<br>
</div>Looking forward to more feedback.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; I was wondering about one big-picture item: I know that you have quite=
 some operational experience with OLSR networks, and that in those you are =
not using hop-count metrics ;) Is this the precise metric that you are usin=
g?<br>

<br>
</div>No.<br>
<br>
OLSR.org RFC 3626 extension uses ETX and cannot change it without<br>
breaking the compatibility to old nodes.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; Or, to put it in another way, is there any operational experience with=
 this metric?<br>
<br>
</div>I have implemented it for my OLSRv2 code and we have used it in our<b=
r>
testbed, but unfortunately thats a quite limited test.<br>
<br>
The implementation uses slightly different limits for ETX and<br>
upper/lower datarate, but I have yet to hear a WG opinion what these<br>
values should be.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; Appendix A kinda-sorta leads me to believe that this I-D documents a s=
light deviation from what you&#39;ve actually been using in your deployment=
s, but that may be an incorrect interpretation.<br>
<br>
</div>Unfortunately I am yet to hear about a community mesh network that<br=
>
tried to deploy OLSRv2.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; Another big-picture question that I have is the status of this documen=
t, I am not sure if &quot;Informational&quot; is quite right; it might be &=
quot;Experimental&quot;, also, or something else? What makes me wonder abou=
t this is that it kinda-sorta imposes behavior (thou shalt have a packet se=
quence number....) on an implementation that reaches beyond just &quot;inte=
rnal processing&quot;. I note that this is not a problem with this I-D as s=
uch, this is just an artefact of IETF processes....<br>

<br>
</div>As I said during the IETF in Berlin I am not sure what &quot;status&q=
uot; this<br>
document should be... most likely &quot;experimental&quot;.<br>
<br>
&quot;informal&quot; was the easiest solution for the private draft until t=
he WG<br>
decides what to do with this document.<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and the=
 authors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not reall=
y an appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document not a work=
ing group document yet?<br>

<br>
</div>I think we can/should talk about this in London.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Henning Rogge<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7bb03afc679f5b04f2b571e9--


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On 02/18/2014 11:03 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
> I think this draft is interesting and looking forward to more
> discussions/work on it.=20
>=20
> One general question:
>=20
> In the draft, the term "mesh network" is used. No "ad hoc" or MANET is
> mentioned.=20

I personally use "mesh network" and "ad hoc" network with the same
meaning, I can easily change them in the next draft version.

> Although there are various definitions of "mesh network", it's generall=
y
> regarded as (physically) static network. Does it mean that this metric
> is more used for such kind of community mesh network, not for "Mobile"
> ad hoc network? (Of course, this brings what's "mobile" for MANET - I
> mean moving routers here). Or it is just we don't have experience on
> this point yet?

I think this depends on what kind of source you use to determine the
packet loss on the link. If you use the "averaged control traffic loss"
method, the metric will need time to converge so you might be forced to
decrease the Hello intervals (and maybe TC intervals) to make the metric
useful for mobile networks.

The Olsr.org ETX metric (which uses the same mechanism to determine
directional link loss) has been mostly used static network. But I
personally know of at least half a dozen experiments where it also have
been used in small but mobile networks, just not on the scale as the
community mesh networks.

I have yet to test the metric described in the draft in a mobile network.=


Henning Rogge

--=20
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de


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From: Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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Op 18 feb. 2014, om 23:03 heeft Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> het =
volgende geschreven:

> I think this draft is interesting and looking forward to more =
discussions/work on it.=20
>=20
> One general question:
>=20
> In the draft, the term "mesh network" is used. No "ad hoc" or MANET is =
mentioned.=20
> Although there are various definitions of "mesh network", it's =
generally regarded as (physically) static network. Does it mean that =
this metric is more used for such kind of community mesh network, not =
for "Mobile" ad hoc network? (Of course, this brings what's "mobile" for =
MANET - I mean moving routers here). Or it is just we don't have =
experience on this point yet?

Good question.=20
Henning and I had discussions on using RSSI, or not (faster convergence, =
less accurate).

I=92m not sure it is mentioned in the draft already that data rate =
selection depends on unicast (user) traffic. That is why probing is =
needed. And attention for links that are not part of the SPF topology.

Teco

>=20
> best
>=20
> Jiazi
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 17, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Thomas Clausen
> <thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> > Thank you for that, Henning....I worried if this important work was =
withering since the previous I-D had expired - I am glad that it hadn't, =
and that you request a slot to present in London. In case the WG chairs =
need signs of support in order to grant that slot, then here's a sign =
from me that it's important.
>=20
> I am looking forward to London.
>=20
> > I've quickly read through the I-D over the weekend, and while a =
detailed review will follow (brace yourself ;) - no seriously, I found =
just a few nits)
>=20
> Looking forward to more feedback.
>=20
> > I was wondering about one big-picture item: I know that you have =
quite some operational experience with OLSR networks, and that in those =
you are not using hop-count metrics ;) Is this the precise metric that =
you are using?
>=20
> No.
>=20
> OLSR.org RFC 3626 extension uses ETX and cannot change it without
> breaking the compatibility to old nodes.
>=20
> > Or, to put it in another way, is there any operational experience =
with this metric?
>=20
> I have implemented it for my OLSRv2 code and we have used it in our
> testbed, but unfortunately thats a quite limited test.
>=20
> The implementation uses slightly different limits for ETX and
> upper/lower datarate, but I have yet to hear a WG opinion what these
> values should be.
>=20
> > Appendix A kinda-sorta leads me to believe that this I-D documents a =
slight deviation from what you've actually been using in your =
deployments, but that may be an incorrect interpretation.
>=20
> Unfortunately I am yet to hear about a community mesh network that
> tried to deploy OLSRv2.
>=20
> > Another big-picture question that I have is the status of this =
document, I am not sure if "Informational" is quite right; it might be =
"Experimental", also, or something else? What makes me wonder about this =
is that it kinda-sorta imposes behavior (thou shalt have a packet =
sequence number....) on an implementation that reaches beyond just =
"internal processing". I note that this is not a problem with this I-D =
as such, this is just an artefact of IETF processes....
>=20
> As I said during the IETF in Berlin I am not sure what "status" this
> document should be... most likely "experimental".
>=20
> "informal" was the easiest solution for the private draft until the WG
> decides what to do with this document.
>=20
> > Now, a na=EFve question from a WG participant to the WG chairs and =
the authors of this I-D: I guess that we all agree that hop-count is not =
really an appropriate metric for most MANETs, so why is this document =
not a working group document yet?
>=20
> I think we can/should talk about this in London.
>=20
> Henning Rogge
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 13:28:48 +0100
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-rogge-baccelli-olsrv2-ett-metric-04.txt
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On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl> wrote:
> I'm not sure it is mentioned in the draft already that data rate selection depends on unicast (user) traffic. That is why probing is needed. And attention for links that are not part of the SPF topology.

At least the Linux "Minstrel" rate selection depends on unicast
traffic. In fact my implementation also contains a probing part, that
sends unicasts over links that had none since the last probing.

Henning Rogge


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Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:37:23 +0100
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From: Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com>
To: Henning Rogge <henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
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Hi,


On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Henning Rogge <
henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> On 02/18/2014 11:03 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
> > I think this draft is interesting and looking forward to more
> > discussions/work on it.
> >
> > One general question:
> >
> > In the draft, the term "mesh network" is used. No "ad hoc" or MANET is
> > mentioned.
>
> I personally use "mesh network" and "ad hoc" network with the same
> meaning, I can easily change them in the next draft version.
>

Thanks. It's better to keep the terminology consistent. Because in some
context, mesh network is slightly different from manet.


>
> > Although there are various definitions of "mesh network", it's generall=
y
> > regarded as (physically) static network. Does it mean that this metric
> > is more used for such kind of community mesh network, not for "Mobile"
> > ad hoc network? (Of course, this brings what's "mobile" for MANET - I
> > mean moving routers here). Or it is just we don't have experience on
> > this point yet?
>
> I think this depends on what kind of source you use to determine the
> packet loss on the link. If you use the "averaged control traffic loss"
> method, the metric will need time to converge so you might be forced to
> decrease the Hello intervals (and maybe TC intervals) to make the metric
> useful for mobile networks.
>
> The Olsr.org ETX metric (which uses the same mechanism to determine
> directional link loss) has been mostly used static network. But I
> personally know of at least half a dozen experiments where it also have
> been used in small but mobile networks, just not on the scale as the
> community mesh networks.
>
> I have yet to test the metric described in the draft in a mobile network.
>

As the draft would be in experimental track, it's totally OK.
I think we can put some text in the applicability statement. It's also
appropriate (in my opinion, encouraged) to describe those experimental
points, so people implementing the draft can pay attention to those
aspects, and provide feedback.

best

Jiazi



>
> Henning Rogge
>
> --
> Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr
> Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE
> Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)
> Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany
> Telefon +49 228 9435-961,   Fax +49 228 9435 685
> mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=A0<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 8:11 AM, Henning Rogge <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blan=
k">henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">On 02/18/2014 11:03 PM, Jiaz=
i YI wrote:<br>
&gt; I think this draft is interesting and looking forward to more<br>
&gt; discussions/work on it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; One general question:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In the draft, the term &quot;mesh network&quot; is used. No &quot;ad h=
oc&quot; or MANET is<br>
&gt; mentioned.<br>
<br>
</div>I personally use &quot;mesh network&quot; and &quot;ad hoc&quot; netw=
ork with the same<br>
meaning, I can easily change them in the next draft version.<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Thanks. It&#39;s better to keep the terminology consi=
stent. Because in some context, mesh network is slightly different from man=
et.=A0</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt; Although there are various definitions of &quot;mesh network&quot;, it=
&#39;s generally<br>
&gt; regarded as (physically) static network. Does it mean that this metric=
<br>
&gt; is more used for such kind of community mesh network, not for &quot;Mo=
bile&quot;<br>
&gt; ad hoc network? (Of course, this brings what&#39;s &quot;mobile&quot; =
for MANET - I<br>
&gt; mean moving routers here). Or it is just we don&#39;t have experience =
on<br>
&gt; this point yet?<br>
<br>
</div>I think this depends on what kind of source you use to determine the<=
br>
packet loss on the link. If you use the &quot;averaged control traffic loss=
&quot;<br>
method, the metric will need time to converge so you might be forced to<br>
decrease the Hello intervals (and maybe TC intervals) to make the metric<br=
>
useful for mobile networks.<br>
<br>
The Olsr.org ETX metric (which uses the same mechanism to determine<br>
directional link loss) has been mostly used static network. But I<br>
personally know of at least half a dozen experiments where it also have<br>
been used in small but mobile networks, just not on the scale as the<br>
community mesh networks.<br>
<br>
I have yet to test the metric described in the draft in a mobile network.<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As the draft would be in experimental tr=
ack, it&#39;s totally OK.</div><div>I think we can put some text in the app=
licability statement. It&#39;s also appropriate (in my opinion, encouraged)=
 to describe those experimental points, so people implementing the draft ca=
n pay attention to those aspects, and provide feedback.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div><br></div=
><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Henning Rogge<br>
</font></span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
--<br>
Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr<br>
Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE<br>
Kommunikationssysteme (KOM)<br>
Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany<br>
Telefon <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20228%209435-961" value=3D"+492289435961">+49 =
228 9435-961</a>, =A0 Fax <a href=3D"tel:%2B49%20228%209435%20685" value=3D=
"+492289435685">+49 228 9435 685</a><br>
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de">henning.rogge@fk=
ie.fraunhofer.de</a> <a href=3D"http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de</a><br>
<br>
</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f46d0444ecaf1d251d04f2c27dad--


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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2014 14:38:57 +0100
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On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Jiazi YI <yi.jiazi@gmail.com> wrote:
> As the draft would be in experimental track, it's totally OK.
> I think we can put some text in the applicability statement. It's also
> appropriate (in my opinion, encouraged) to describe those experimental
> points, so people implementing the draft can pay attention to those aspects,
> and provide feedback.

I will keep that in mind for the next revision.

Henning Rogge


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Subject: [manet] MANET meeting will be on Wednesday, 9am
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It was not possible to achieve the discussed agenda change. Therefore, the
MANET meeting will take place as listed in the agenda, i.e., Wednesday 9am.

Best regards
Ulrich

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<div dir="ltr"><div>It was not possible to achieve the discussed agenda change. Therefore, the MANET meeting will take place as listed in the agenda, i.e., Wednesday 9am.<br><br></div>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div>

--bcaec548a625c5688c04f2c5252b--


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Subject: [manet] Slides until 3/2
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Presenters, please send me your slides until March 2 (Sunday), 11:59:59pm
UTC

Thanks
Ulrich

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<div dir="ltr"><div>Presenters, please send me your slides until March 2 (Sunday), 11:59:59pm UTC<br><br>Thanks<br></div>Ulrich<br></div>

--001a1133ab9c2d4cd904f2da4def--


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Hi Ulrich,

I have a question and suggestion for the agenda. Is the time assigned to
each speaker includes presentation time only or is the time includes
also questions/comments? I see one item has 20 minutes and another
15min.  I think presenting for 10 min is enough compared with other
items and if no group discussion the speaker can then do the other 10 min
or 5 min they requested, so maximum 20 min per item if the chair
agrees. Thanks.

AB

On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:

> I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
>
>
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet

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Hi Ulrich,<div><br></div><div>I have a question and suggestion=A0for the ag=
enda.=A0Is the time assigned to each speaker includes presentation time onl=
y or is the time includes also=A0questions/comments? I see=A0one item has 2=
0 minutes and another 15min.=A0=A0I think=A0presenting for 10 min=A0is enou=
gh compared with other items=A0and if no group=A0discussion the speaker can=
 then=A0do the other 10 min or 5 min they requested,=A0so maximum 20 min=A0=
per item if the=A0chair agrees.=A0Thanks.=A0</div>
<div><br></div><div>AB<br><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg =
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have uplo=
aded the preliminary agenda to:<br>
=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings=
/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet">http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agend=
a-89-manet</a><br></div><div>=A0</div></div>

--20cf3010ead1f0cd9e04f31e7b63--


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--bcaec548a717f7f3b404f31f3a22
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Abdussalam,

the time includes questions / discussion time. In fact, I hope that most of
the time of each slot is used for discussion; the presentations should be
fairly short. The timing is not set in stone; if one slot takes less time
because there is no discussion, it makes sense to shorten the slot during
the meeting. On the other hand, if one slot exceeds time because of
relevant discussions, I am certain that the chairs will let the discussions
continue for some time.

Best regards
Ulrich


On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <
abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ulrich,
>
> I have a question and suggestion for the agenda. Is the time assigned to
> each speaker includes presentation time only or is the time includes
> also questions/comments? I see one item has 20 minutes and another
> 15min.  I think presenting for 10 min is enough compared with other
> items and if no group discussion the speaker can then do the other 10 min
> or 5 min they requested, so maximum 20 min per item if the chair
> agrees. Thanks.
>
> AB
>
> On Monday, February 17, 2014, Ulrich Herberg wrote:
>
>> I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:
>>
>>
> http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet
>
>

--bcaec548a717f7f3b404f31f3a22
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Abdussalam,<br><br></div>the time includes questions =
/ discussion time. In fact, I hope that most of the time of each slot is us=
ed for discussion; the presentations should be fairly short. The timing is =
not set in stone; if one slot takes less time because there is no discussio=
n, it makes sense to shorten the slot during the meeting. On the other hand=
, if one slot exceeds time because of relevant discussions, I am certain th=
at the chairs will let the discussions continue for some time.<br>
<br>Best regards<br>Ulrich<br><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 23, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Abdussalam Baryun <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:abdussalambaryun@gmail.com" target=3D=
"_blank">abdussalambaryun@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Ulrich,<div><br></div><div>I have a quest=
ion and suggestion=A0for the agenda.=A0Is the time assigned to each speaker=
 includes presentation time only or is the time includes also=A0questions/c=
omments? I see=A0one item has 20 minutes and another 15min.=A0=A0I think=A0=
presenting for 10 min=A0is enough compared with other items=A0and if no gro=
up=A0discussion the speaker can then=A0do the other 10 min or 5 min they re=
quested,=A0so maximum 20 min=A0per item if the=A0chair agrees.=A0Thanks.=A0=
</div>

<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"">AB<br><br>On Monday, February 17, 2014,=
 Ulrich Herberg  wrote:<br></div><div class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have uploaded the preliminary agenda to:<br>
=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/proceedings=
/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/proceedin=
gs/89/agenda/agenda-89-manet</a><br></div><div>=A0</div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--bcaec548a717f7f3b404f31f3a22--


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A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.

    Title         : Routing MPR Optimization for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2)
    Author(s)     : C. Dearlove, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-rmpr-optimization
    Pages         : 6 
    Date          : 2014-02-24 
    
   This specification updates the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol
   version 2 (OLSRv2) with an optimization to improve the selection of
   routing Multi-Point Relays.  The optimization retains full
   interoperability between implementations of OLSRv2 with and without
   this optimization.

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Subject: [manet] Protocol Action: 'Routing MPR Optimization for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2)' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-rmpr-optimization-01.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Routing MPR Optimization for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol
   version 2 (OLSRv2)'
  (draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-rmpr-optimization-01.txt) as Proposed Standard

This document is the product of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Adrian Farrel and Stewart Bryant.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-rmpr-optimization/




Technical Summary

   This specification updates the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol
   version 2 (OLSRv2) with an optimization to improve the selection of
   routing MPRs. 

   The optimization retains full interoperability between implementations
   of OLSRv2 with and without this optimization.

Working Group Summary

   There was consensus to publish the document.

Document Quality

   There is one publicly known implementation this extension to OLSRv2:

   o Ecole Polytechnique, France
     (Contact: Thomas Clausen)

   Note that OLSRv2 is now advancing in the RFC Editor Queue having
   been stuck for a long time. It is appropriate for this I-D to be an Update,
   and had normal things happened all the ducks would have lined up.

Personnel

   The Document Shepherd is Ulrich Herberg (ulrich@herberg.name)
   The responsible Area Director is Adrian Farrel

RFC Editor Note

   This document updates draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2 which is in the RFC
   Editor Queue and likely to be published as an RFC before this
   document completes the process.

   Please note that IANA requests that the IANA Considerations section
   of the document remain in place upon publication.


From nobody Mon Feb 24 14:32:01 2014
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A new Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF.

    Title         : Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) and MANET Neighborhood Discovery Protocol (NHDP) Extension TLVs
    Author(s)     : C. Dearlove, et al
    Filename      : draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension
    Pages         : 12 
    Date          : 2014-02-24 
    
   This specification describes extensions to definitions of TLVs used
   by the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) and
   the MANET Neighborhood Discovery Protocol (NHDP), to increase their
   abilities to accommodate protocol extensions.  This document updates
   OLSRv2 and RFC6130.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-olsrv2-tlv-extension-03.txt

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From nobody Tue Feb 25 12:01:25 2014
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From: "Stan Ratliff (sratliff)" <sratliff@cisco.com>
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Working group,=20

Just an FYI - we've been bombarded recently with emails about submitting pa=
pers to workshops/symposia. Those are filtered out - this email list is for=
 working group business only.=20

If you know anyone who is trying to post this type of email to the list, co=
uld you please tell them not to? It saves on administrative overhead.

Regards,
Stan=


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From: Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu>
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Hi

I wish to submit my internet-draft titled "Secure Hybrid Wireless Mesh
Protocol <http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-avula-shwmp/>" for
consideration towards publishing as an RFC as an independent submission in
Experimental category. Please find attached the updated version of the
draft. I tried to submit but the submission tool hasn't re-opened yet for
submissions yet. I was suggested by the RFC editor to consider asking for
comments from the related working groups to ensure that this work doesn't
conflict with any of the IETF Working Groups. It would be of great help, in
my maiden adventure of submitting an RFC, if you could kindly take a look
at my internet draft and send in your comments/suggestions.

Thanks,
Mallikarjun

--bcaec5215bcbbcf57b04f347703e
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi<div><br></d=
iv><div>I wish to submit my internet-draft titled &quot;<a href=3D"http://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-avula-shwmp/" target=3D"_blank">Secure Hybrid=
 Wireless Mesh Protocol</a>&quot; for consideration towards publishing as a=
n RFC as an independent submission in Experimental category. Please find at=
tached the updated version of the draft. I tried to submit but the submissi=
on tool hasn&#39;t re-opened yet for submissions yet. I was suggested by th=
e RFC editor to consider asking for comments from the related working group=
s to ensure that=A0<span style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13=
px">this work doesn&#39;t conflict with any of the IETF Working Groups. It =
would be of great help, in my maiden adventure of submitting an RFC, if you=
 could kindly take a look at my internet draft and send in your comments/su=
ggestions.</span></div>

<div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"a=
rial, sans-serif">Thanks,</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, sans-serif"=
>Mallikarjun</font></div></div>
</div><br></div>

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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 08:59:37 +0100
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To: Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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Hi,

I see two problems with this draft for the IETF Manet WG:

1.) HWMP/IEEE-802.11s (and SHWMP) are layer2 forwarding protocols. The
Manet group deals with routing (layer-3 IP forwarding) protocols.
2.) HWMP has not been published as a RFC, so we cannot easily see what
your protocol is doing. Is there even a full description of 802.11s
freely available somewhere?

Henning Rogge

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I wish to submit my internet-draft titled "Secure Hybrid Wireless Mesh
> Protocol" for consideration towards publishing as an RFC as an independent
> submission in Experimental category. Please find attached the updated
> version of the draft. I tried to submit but the submission tool hasn't
> re-opened yet for submissions yet. I was suggested by the RFC editor to
> consider asking for comments from the related working groups to ensure that
> this work doesn't conflict with any of the IETF Working Groups. It would be
> of great help, in my maiden adventure of submitting an RFC, if you could
> kindly take a look at my internet draft and send in your
> comments/suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> Mallikarjun
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>


From nobody Wed Feb 26 00:42:48 2014
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From: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 08:59, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> I see two problems with this draft for the IETF Manet WG:
>=20
> 1.) HWMP/IEEE-802.11s (and SHWMP) are layer2 forwarding protocols. The
> Manet group deals with routing (layer-3 IP forwarding) protocols.
> 2.) HWMP has not been published as a RFC, so we cannot easily see what
> your protocol is doing. Is there even a full description of 802.11s
> freely available somewhere?
>=20

3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license that perm=
its a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?

Thomas

> Henning Rogge
>=20
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrote=
:
>> Hi
>>=20
>> I wish to submit my internet-draft titled "Secure Hybrid Wireless Mesh
>> Protocol" for consideration towards publishing as an RFC as an independen=
t
>> submission in Experimental category. Please find attached the updated
>> version of the draft. I tried to submit but the submission tool hasn't
>> re-opened yet for submissions yet. I was suggested by the RFC editor to
>> consider asking for comments from the related working groups to ensure th=
at
>> this work doesn't conflict with any of the IETF Working Groups. It would b=
e
>> of great help, in my maiden adventure of submitting an RFC, if you could
>> kindly take a look at my internet draft and send in your
>> comments/suggestions.
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>> Mallikarjun
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From nobody Wed Feb 26 01:56:57 2014
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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I'd actually like to strengthen Henning's two points.
1. The initial text says "In a Wireless Mesh Network (WMN), the default rou=
ting protocol is Hybrid Wireless Mesh Protocol (HWMP)." That identifies "wi=
reless mesh network" with "IEEE 802.11 based wireless network", but without=
 even saying it. Both that identification, and the assertion that this is t=
he default, aren't justified here at all and are at least arguable.
2. There isn't an RFC, but in addition this document has no reference for w=
hat HWMP is at all. However simply adding a reference (even an open one) wo=
uld leave this missing connecting material to that reference.

-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194=A0|  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
Sent: 26 February 2014 08:00
To: Mallikarjun Avula
Cc: MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01

----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi=
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Hi,

I see two problems with this draft for the IETF Manet WG:

1.) HWMP/IEEE-802.11s (and SHWMP) are layer2 forwarding protocols. The Mane=
t group deals with routing (layer-3 IP forwarding) protocols.
2.) HWMP has not been published as a RFC, so we cannot easily see what your=
 protocol is doing. Is there even a full description of 802.11s freely avai=
lable somewhere?

Henning Rogge

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 5:14 AM, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I wish to submit my internet-draft titled "Secure Hybrid Wireless Mesh =

> Protocol" for consideration towards publishing as an RFC as an =

> independent submission in Experimental category. Please find attached =

> the updated version of the draft. I tried to submit but the submission =

> tool hasn't re-opened yet for submissions yet. I was suggested by the =

> RFC editor to consider asking for comments from the related working =

> groups to ensure that this work doesn't conflict with any of the IETF =

> Working Groups. It would be of great help, in my maiden adventure of =

> submitting an RFC, if you could kindly take a look at my internet =

> draft and send in your comments/suggestions.
>
> Thanks,
> Mallikarjun
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

********************************************************************
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
<ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license that permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?

I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so it
should be a GPLv2 implementation available.

Henning Rogge


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From: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 13:08:23 +0100
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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Implementation =3D! Specification=20

--=20
Thomas Heide Clausen
http://www.thomasclausen.org

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for=20
  experiments, and they wander off through equation=20
  after equation, and eventually  build a structure=20
  which has no relation to reality."
 - Nikola Tesla,=20
    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934

> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license that p=
ermits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>=20
> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so it
> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>=20
> Henning Rogge


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From: "Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
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Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize that
there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to
take comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET. I
understand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as
HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be
directed to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent
Submission' under 'Experimental' category?


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <
Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl> wrote:

> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE
> 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge
> through the IEEE Get Program (
> http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html ) .  HWMP is
> specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>
> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and
> Christopher.
>
> Ronald in 't Velt
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
> >Clausen
> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
> >To: Henning Rogge
> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
> >
> >Implementation =3D! Specification
> >
> >--
> >Thomas Heide Clausen
> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
> >
> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
> >  which has no relation to reality."
> > - Nikola Tesla,
> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
> >
> >> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license th=
at
> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
> >>
> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so it
> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
> >>
> >> Henning Rogge
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >manet mailing list
> >manet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u
> niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is
> toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het berich=
t
> te verwijderen. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van
> deze e-mail, de wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aa=
rd
> ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch
> verzenden van berichten.
>
>
>
> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you
> are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you
> are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no
> liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use
> it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the
> electronic transmission of messages.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you all for your comments so far and I&#39;d welcome=
 more. I realize that there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks =
yet so I wanted to take comments from the closest working group which I thi=
nk is MANET. I understand that my internet draft isn&#39;t quite suitable f=
or IETF Manet WG as HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suita=
ble WG that I can be directed to or do you think this draft better qualifie=
s as an &#39;Independent Submission&#39; under &#39;Experimental&#39; categ=
ory?</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 2=
6, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in &#39;t <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl" target=3D"_blank">Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) =
has been absorbed into IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be =
available at no charge through the IEEE Get Program ( <a href=3D"http://sta=
ndards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html" target=3D"_blank">http://standar=
ds.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html</a> ) . =A0HWMP is specified in claus=
e 13.10 of 802.11-2012.<br>

<br>
Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christop=
her.<br>
<br>
Ronald in &#39;t Velt<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide<br>
&gt;Clausen<br>
&gt;Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08<br>
&gt;To: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;Implementation =3D! Specification<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.t=
homasclausen.org</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;Today&#39;s scientists have substituted mathematics for<br>
&gt; =A0experiments, and they wander off through equation<br>
&gt; =A0after equation, and eventually =A0build a structure<br>
&gt; =A0which has no relation to reality.&quot;<br>
&gt; - Nikola Tesla,<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@thomasclausen.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a lic=
ense that<br>
&gt;permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, s=
o it<br>
&gt;&gt; should be a GPLv2 implementation available.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div><div class=3D"">&gt;___________________________________________=
____<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indie=
n u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezo=
nden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verw=
ijderen. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mai=
l, de wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die =
verband houdt met risico&#39;s verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van=
 berichten.<br>

<br>
<br>
<br>
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you a=
re not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are=
 requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liab=
ility for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it an=
d for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electroni=
c transmission of messages.<br>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b15af1ba3195c04f3514112--


From nobody Wed Feb 26 08:24:21 2014
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:23:30 +0100
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To: Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu>
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, "Velt, R. \(Ronald\) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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Hi,

I think the main problem with your document is that it is an extension
of an IEEE document, not an extension of an IETF document or a
standalone.

I am not sure whats the IETF policy about documents like this.

Maybe you are willing to look into AODVv2, your ideas could apply to
this protocol too because HWMP is just an extension of AODV.

Henning Rogge


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 4:57 PM, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrote:
> Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize th=
at
> there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to t=
ake
> comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET. I underst=
and
> that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP is
> layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be direc=
ted
> to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent
> Submission' under 'Experimental' category?
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't
> <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl> wrote:
>>
>> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE
>> 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge
>> through the IEEE Get Program (
>> http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html ) .  HWMP is specifi=
ed
>> in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>>
>> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and
>> Christopher.
>>
>> Ronald in 't Velt
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
>> >Clausen
>> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
>> >To: Henning Rogge
>> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
>> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>> >
>> >Implementation =3D! Specification
>> >
>> >--
>> >Thomas Heide Clausen
>> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
>> >
>> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
>> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
>> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
>> >  which has no relation to reality."
>> > - Nikola Tesla,
>> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
>> >
>> >> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
>> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license
>> >>> that
>> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>> >>
>> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so i=
t
>> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>> >>
>> >> Henning Rogge
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >manet mailing list
>> >manet@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>>
>> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u
>> niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezon=
den,
>> wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te
>> verwijderen. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van dez=
e
>> e-mail, de wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard o=
ok,
>> die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden =
van
>> berichten.
>>
>>
>>
>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If yo=
u
>> are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you=
 are
>> requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no
>> liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you us=
e it
>> and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the
>> electronic transmission of messages.
>
>


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To: Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu>
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/5YHty_NpCL3F_FXJRqXBGgEpkq0
Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, "Velt, R. \(Ronald\) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrote:=

>=20
> Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize tha=
t there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to ta=
ke comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET.

I actually do not understand how "mesh" and "MANET" are different, so I am n=
ot actually sure what it is you're looking for, or asking, here.=20

> I understand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG=
 as HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can=
 be directed to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independe=
nt Submission' under 'Experimental' category?
>=20

Speaking only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do believe t=
hat the IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for publication.

As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believe that the first ques=
tion to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?=20

Best,

Thomas

>=20
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <Ronald.intVelt@=
tno.nl> wrote:
>> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE 8=
02.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge through=
 the IEEE Get Program ( http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html )=
 .  HWMP is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>>=20
>> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christ=
opher.
>>=20
>> Ronald in 't Velt
>>=20
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
>> >Clausen
>> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
>> >To: Henning Rogge
>> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
>> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>> >
>> >Implementation =3D! Specification
>> >
>> >--
>> >Thomas Heide Clausen
>> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
>> >
>> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
>> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
>> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
>> >  which has no relation to reality."
>> > - Nikola Tesla,
>> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
>> >
>> >> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
>> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license th=
at
>> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>> >>
>> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so it=

>> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>> >>
>> >> Henning Rogge
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >manet mailing list
>> >manet@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u n=
iet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, w=
ordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen.=
 TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mail, de wij=
ze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband ho=
udt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you=
 are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you ar=
e requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liab=
ility for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and=
 for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic t=
ransmission of messages.
>=20

--Apple-Mail-2C17DF49-B0DF-4634-9999-E927409AB0D8
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div>On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, a=
t 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ma0004@uah.edu">ma0004@uah.=
edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize t=
hat there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to t=
ake comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET. </div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div>I actually do not understand how "mesh" and "=
MANET" are different, so I am not actually sure what it is you're looking fo=
r, or asking, here.&nbsp;<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">I understand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Mane=
t WG as HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I=
 can be directed to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Indep=
endent Submission' under 'Experimental' category?</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Speak=
ing only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do believe that t=
he IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for publication.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believe that the f=
irst question to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?&nbsp;</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl" target=3D"_blank">Ronald.intVelt@=
tno.nl</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) ha=
s been absorbed into IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be ava=
ilable at no charge through the IEEE Get Program ( <a href=3D"http://standar=
ds.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html" target=3D"_blank">http://standards.ie=
ee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html</a> ) . &nbsp;HWMP is specified in clause 1=
3.10 of 802.11-2012.<br>

<br>
Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christoph=
er.<br>
<br>
Ronald in 't Velt<br>
<div class=3D""><br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide<br>
&gt;Clausen<br>
&gt;Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08<br>
&gt;To: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">&gt;Implementation =3D! Specification<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.th=
omasclausen.org</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for<br>
&gt; &nbsp;experiments, and they wander off through equation<br>
&gt; &nbsp;after equation, and eventually &nbsp;build a structure<br>
&gt; &nbsp;which has no relation to reality."<br>
&gt; - Nikola Tesla,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@thomasclausen.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a lice=
nse that<br>
&gt;permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so=
 it<br>
&gt;&gt; should be a GPLv2 implementation available.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div><div class=3D"">&gt;____________________________________________=
___<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien=
 u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezond=
en, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijd=
eren. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mail, d=
e wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verba=
nd houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten=
.<br>

<br>
<br>
<br>
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you ar=
e not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are r=
equested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liabili=
ty for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and fo=
r damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic tra=
nsmission of messages.<br>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-2C17DF49-B0DF-4634-9999-E927409AB0D8--


From nobody Wed Feb 26 09:11:58 2014
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From: "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
To: "'MANET IETF'" <manet@ietf.org>
References: <CAMprq2tUNJtbbxYFKG11oC-T9J-+5F_-Xan2CUzRoFQFF60WiQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMprq2s9swkkvi3ky+s009Nd+EOeHu=5dcCrsKknMbap8vKWQA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGnRvuoQ6VrxdqiP4uoUJqoo2Bcict20bZEgUVSjwdFsvbdr1A@mail.gmail.com> <2B5BA67A-B6D9-4AB9-B10D-99A5EB312BE1@thomasclausen.org> <CAGnRvuoGKJLk=rB6-qugKOpeCSJBtq-fCgBKi+h0c7rgWDvdCw@mail.gmail.com> <B4FF6F99-AC3A-4107-B772-BFBFAFA531D4@thomasclausen.org> <72FB622921C13746AD6349E70A8D9F307DA32178@EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl>
In-Reply-To: <72FB622921C13746AD6349E70A8D9F307DA32178@EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 17:11:42 -0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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All,

I don't think that Mallikarjun is proposing that this work be adopted by =
the MANET WG. The intention, as I understood it, is to have the work =
published on the Independent Stream as an Experimental RFC.=20

The poll is to notify people who might be interested and to solicit =
reviews and feedback.

I suggest that that feedback be addressed to Mallikarjun if it is  =
technical or editorial, and to the ISE (ise@rfc-editor.org) if it is =
about the advisability of publication.

AFAIK, the Independent Stream is not limited to publication of documents =
about the Internet or related technologies. The text at =
http://www.rfc-editor.org/indsubs.html says "relevant to the Internet =
community." The relevance is presumably for the author to assert and the =
ISE to verify.

You might think that the scope of the Independent Stream is too wide, =
but I could not possibly comment. The Independent Stream was established =
on request (demand?) of the IETF community to prevent the IESG blocking =
the publication of work, and it would be wrong for me to hold a public =
view on the topic.

Meanwhile: back to discussing work in scope for the WG :-)

Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Velt, R. =
(Ronald) in
> 't
> Sent: 26 February 2014 14:35
> To: Thomas Heide Clausen; Henning Rogge
> Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>=20
> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into =
IEEE
> 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge =
through the
> IEEE Get Program ( http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html =
) .
> HWMP is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>=20
> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and
> Christopher.
>=20
> Ronald in 't Velt
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
> >Clausen
> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
> >To: Henning Rogge
> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
> >
> >Implementation =3D! Specification
> >
> >--
> >Thomas Heide Clausen
> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
> >
> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
> >  which has no relation to reality."
> > - Nikola Tesla,
> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
> >
> >> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license =
that
> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
> >>
> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so =
it
> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
> >>
> >> Henning Rogge
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >manet mailing list
> >manet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien =
u niet de
> geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden, =
wordt u
> verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen. =
TNO
> aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mail, de =
wijze
> waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband =
houdt
> met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If =
you are not
> the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are =
requested
> to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability =
for the
> content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for =
damage of any
> kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic transmission =
of messages.
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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References: <CAMprq2tUNJtbbxYFKG11oC-T9J-+5F_-Xan2CUzRoFQFF60WiQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMprq2s9swkkvi3ky+s009Nd+EOeHu=5dcCrsKknMbap8vKWQA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGnRvuoQ6VrxdqiP4uoUJqoo2Bcict20bZEgUVSjwdFsvbdr1A@mail.gmail.com> <2B5BA67A-B6D9-4AB9-B10D-99A5EB312BE1@thomasclausen.org> <CAGnRvuoGKJLk=rB6-qugKOpeCSJBtq-fCgBKi+h0c7rgWDvdCw@mail.gmail.com> <B4FF6F99-AC3A-4107-B772-BFBFAFA531D4@thomasclausen.org> <72FB622921C13746AD6349E70A8D9F307DA32178@EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl> <CAMprq2sUFCnXd4vsiqR_0zwTFUUHRzvJD9xFcaST=_W+iwjPrA@mail.gmail.com> <D4544ABE-CD51-4B12-9EE9-DDF1763DD230@thomasclausen.org>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2014 09:35:05 -0800
Message-ID: <CAK=bVC-4rr38nMsAMnaOg-vYUxe3d61kMPXuHbHs-AR8HWYxnw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/rvb_mFJIq-PaZHW_gdfuFR3V50g
Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, "Velt, R. \(Ronald\) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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Mallikarjun,

I concur with what Thomas and others have said. If this draft is an
extension to an IEEE protocol, have you considered proposing the extension
to the relevant IEEE group(s)?

Best regards
Ulrich


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen <
ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:

>
> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize
> that there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted
> to take comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET.
>
>
> I actually do not understand how "mesh" and "MANET" are different, so I a=
m
> not actually sure what it is you're looking for, or asking, here.
>
> I understand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet W=
G
> as HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I c=
an
> be directed to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an
> 'Independent Submission' under 'Experimental' category?
>
>
> Speaking only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do
> believe that the IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for publication=
.
>
> As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believe that the first
> question to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?
>
> Best,
>
> Thomas
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <
> Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl> wrote:
>
>> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE
>> 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge
>> through the IEEE Get Program (
>> http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html ) .  HWMP is
>> specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>>
>> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and
>> Christopher.
>>
>> Ronald in 't Velt
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
>> >Clausen
>> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
>> >To: Henning Rogge
>> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
>> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>> >
>> >Implementation =3D! Specification
>> >
>> >--
>> >Thomas Heide Clausen
>> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
>> >
>> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
>> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
>> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
>> >  which has no relation to reality."
>> > - Nikola Tesla,
>> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
>> >
>> >> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
>> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license
>> that
>> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>> >>
>> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so i=
t
>> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>> >>
>> >> Henning Rogge
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >manet mailing list
>> >manet@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>>
>> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u
>> niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is
>> toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het beric=
ht
>> te verwijderen. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van
>> deze e-mail, de wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke a=
ard
>> ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch
>> verzenden van berichten.
>>
>>
>>
>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If yo=
u
>> are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you
>> are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts n=
o
>> liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you us=
e
>> it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the
>> electronic transmission of messages.
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mallikarjun,<br><br>I concur with what Thomas and oth=
ers have said. If this draft is an extension to an IEEE protocol, have you =
considered proposing the extension to the relevant IEEE group(s)?<br><br></=
div>
Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D""><div><br><=
/div><div>On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ma0004@uah.edu" target=3D"_blank">ma0004@uah.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you all for=
 your comments so far and I&#39;d welcome more. I realize that there is no =
working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to take comments f=
rom the closest working group which I think is MANET. </div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>I actually do not understand how &q=
uot;mesh&quot; and &quot;MANET&quot; are different, so I am not actually su=
re what it is you&#39;re looking for, or asking, here.=A0<div><div class=3D=
"">
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I understand that my in=
ternet draft isn&#39;t quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP is layer-2 =
forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be directed to or =
do you think this draft better qualifies as an &#39;Independent Submission&=
#39; under &#39;Experimental&#39; category?</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></di=
v>Speaking only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do belie=
ve that the IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for publication.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believ=
e that the first question to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?=A0</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"h5">
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) i=
n &#39;t <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) =
has been absorbed into IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be =
available at no charge through the IEEE Get Program ( <a href=3D"http://sta=
ndards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html" target=3D"_blank">http://standar=
ds.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html</a> ) . =A0HWMP is specified in claus=
e 13.10 of 802.11-2012.<br>


<br>
Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christop=
her.<br>
<br>
Ronald in &#39;t Velt<br>
<div><br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide<br>
&gt;Clausen<br>
&gt;Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08<br>
&gt;To: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div><div>&gt;Implementation =3D! Specification<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.t=
homasclausen.org</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;Today&#39;s scientists have substituted mathematics for<br>
&gt; =A0experiments, and they wander off through equation<br>
&gt; =A0after equation, and eventually =A0build a structure<br>
&gt; =A0which has no relation to reality.&quot;<br>
&gt; - Nikola Tesla,<br>
&gt; =A0 =A0Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hrogge@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ie=
tf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a lic=
ense that<br>
&gt;permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, s=
o it<br>
&gt;&gt; should be a GPLv2 implementation available.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div><div>&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indie=
n u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezo=
nden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verw=
ijderen. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mai=
l, de wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die =
verband houdt met risico&#39;s verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van=
 berichten.<br>


<br>
<br>
<br>
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you a=
re not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are=
 requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liab=
ility for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it an=
d for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electroni=
c transmission of messages.<br>


</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br>____________________________=
___________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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References: <CAMprq2tUNJtbbxYFKG11oC-T9J-+5F_-Xan2CUzRoFQFF60WiQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMprq2s9swkkvi3ky+s009Nd+EOeHu=5dcCrsKknMbap8vKWQA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGnRvuoQ6VrxdqiP4uoUJqoo2Bcict20bZEgUVSjwdFsvbdr1A@mail.gmail.com> <2B5BA67A-B6D9-4AB9-B10D-99A5EB312BE1@thomasclausen.org> <CAGnRvuoGKJLk=rB6-qugKOpeCSJBtq-fCgBKi+h0c7rgWDvdCw@mail.gmail.com> <B4FF6F99-AC3A-4107-B772-BFBFAFA531D4@thomasclausen.org> <72FB622921C13746AD6349E70A8D9F307DA32178@EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl> <CAMprq2sUFCnXd4vsiqR_0zwTFUUHRzvJD9xFcaST=_W+iwjPrA@mail.gmail.com> <D4544ABE-CD51-4B12-9EE9-DDF1763DD230@thomasclausen.org> <CAK=bVC-4rr38nMsAMnaOg-vYUxe3d61kMPXuHbHs-AR8HWYxnw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name>
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/BlQPwGX0u8Hhn3I8cdcCxi-gWlQ
Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, "Velt, R. \(Ronald\) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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(Just want to go on record: it's not that the work isn't interesting as such=
, it may just not be the right forum - you should really ask a chair or an A=
Ds advice on these matters)

Sent from my iPad

> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 18:35, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Mallikarjun,
>=20
> I concur with what Thomas and others have said. If this draft is an extens=
ion to an IEEE protocol, have you considered proposing the extension to the r=
elevant IEEE group(s)?
>=20
> Best regards
> Ulrich
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen=
.org> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> wrot=
e:
>>>=20
>>> Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize t=
hat there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to t=
ake comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET.
>>=20
>> I actually do not understand how "mesh" and "MANET" are different, so I a=
m not actually sure what it is you're looking for, or asking, here.=20
>>=20
>>> I understand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet W=
G as HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I ca=
n be directed to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independ=
ent Submission' under 'Experimental' category?
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Speaking only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do belie=
ve that the IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for publication.
>>=20
>> As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believe that the first q=
uestion to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?=20
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <Ronald.intVel=
t@tno.nl> wrote:
>>>> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE=
 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge throu=
gh the IEEE Get Program ( http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.htm=
l ) .  HWMP is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>>>>=20
>>>> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Chri=
stopher.
>>>>=20
>>>> Ronald in 't Velt
>>>>=20
>>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>>> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
>>>> >Clausen
>>>> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
>>>> >To: Henning Rogge
>>>> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
>>>> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>>>> >
>>>> >Implementation =3D! Specification
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >Thomas Heide Clausen
>>>> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
>>>> >
>>>> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
>>>> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
>>>> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
>>>> >  which has no relation to reality."
>>>> > - Nikola Tesla,
>>>> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
>>>> >
>>>> >> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
>>>> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>>> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license t=
hat
>>>> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so i=
t
>>>> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Henning Rogge
>>>> >
>>>> >_______________________________________________
>>>> >manet mailing list
>>>> >manet@ietf.org
>>>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u=
 niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezonden=
, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijder=
en. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mail, de w=
ijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband h=
oudt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If y=
ou are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you a=
re requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no lia=
bility for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it an=
d for damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic=
 transmission of messages.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>(Just want to go on record: it's not t=
hat the work isn't interesting as such, it may just not be the right forum -=
 you should really ask a chair or an ADs advice on these matters)<br><br>Sen=
t from my iPad</div><div><br>On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 18:35, Ulrich Herberg=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ulrich@herberg.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mallika=
rjun,<br><br>I concur with what Thomas and others have said. If this draft i=
s an extension to an IEEE protocol, have you considered proposing the extens=
ion to the relevant IEEE group(s)?<br><br></div>
Best regards<br>Ulrich<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank=
">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D""><div><br></d=
iv><div>On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ma0004@uah.edu" target=3D"_blank">ma0004@uah.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you all for y=
our comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize that there is no working=
 group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to take comments from the c=
losest working group which I think is MANET. </div>
</div></blockquote><div><br></div></div>I actually do not understand how "me=
sh" and "MANET" are different, so I am not actually sure what it is you're l=
ooking for, or asking, here.&nbsp;<div><div class=3D"">
<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">I understand that my int=
ernet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP is layer-2 forwar=
ding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be directed to or do you t=
hink this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent Submission' under 'Exper=
imental' category?</div>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div=
>Speaking only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do believe=
 that the IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for publication.</div>
<div><br></div><div>As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believe=
 that the first question to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?&nbsp;</div=
><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><div cl=
ass=3D"h5">
<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in '=
t <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl" target=3D"_=
blank">Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) ha=
s been absorbed into IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be ava=
ilable at no charge through the IEEE Get Program ( <a href=3D"http://standar=
ds.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html" target=3D"_blank">http://standards.ie=
ee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html</a> ) . &nbsp;HWMP is specified in clause 1=
3.10 of 802.11-2012.<br>


<br>
Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christoph=
er.<br>
<br>
Ronald in 't Velt<br>
<div><br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"=
_blank">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide<br>
&gt;Clausen<br>
&gt;Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08<br>
&gt;To: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<br>
&gt;<br>
</div><div><div>&gt;Implementation =3D! Specification<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.th=
omasclausen.org</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for<br>
&gt; &nbsp;experiments, and they wander off through equation<br>
&gt; &nbsp;after equation, and eventually &nbsp;build a structure<br>
&gt; &nbsp;which has no relation to reality."<br>
&gt; - Nikola Tesla,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:hrogge@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">iet=
f@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a lice=
nse that<br>
&gt;permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so=
 it<br>
&gt;&gt; should be a GPLv2 implementation available.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div><div>&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</div>Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien=
 u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is toegezond=
en, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijd=
eren. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de inhoud van deze e-mail, d=
e wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verba=
nd houdt met risico's verbonden aan het elektronisch verzenden van berichten=
.<br>


<br>
<br>
<br>
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you ar=
e not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are r=
equested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liabili=
ty for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and fo=
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nsmission of messages.<br>


</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></div><br>_____________________________=
__________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, "Velt, R. \(Ronald\) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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Right, I think its not a matter of whether the work is interesting or =
not. Its a classic IEEE/IETF issue. This is basically building off an =
IEEE L2 protocol framework so it would seem that may be the better forum =
to consider publication and vetting. =20

If there was more of how this interacts with an IP protocol or =
architecture maybe an IETF ID would be pertinent.  I see some =
terminology is used from IPSEC and AODV but I do not see IP layer issues =
directly addressed.=20

Correct please me if I am wrong?  Likely the Routing ADs can provide =
better guidance since these issues may have cropped up in other ways.   =
Certainly many of us are interesting in L2 mesh routing solutions but we =
do not have a charter to work these issues.  Certainly manet routing =
algorithms have crossed over and seem some dual application and how IP =
protocols would interact with L2 is of interest.

On Feb 26, 2014, at 12:46 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen =
<ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:

> (Just want to go on record: it's not that the work isn't interesting =
as such, it may just not be the right forum - you should really ask a =
chair or an ADs advice on these matters)
>=20
> Sent from my iPad
>=20
> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 18:35, Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Mallikarjun,
>>=20
>> I concur with what Thomas and others have said. If this draft is an =
extension to an IEEE protocol, have you considered proposing the =
extension to the relevant IEEE group(s)?
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> Ulrich
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen =
<ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>=20
>> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 16:57, Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I =
realize that there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so =
I wanted to take comments from the closest working group which I think =
is MANET.
>>=20
>> I actually do not understand how "mesh" and "MANET" are different, so =
I am not actually sure what it is you're looking for, or asking, here.=20=

>>=20
>>> I understand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF =
Manet WG as HWMP is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable =
WG that I can be directed to or do you think this draft better qualifies =
as an 'Independent Submission' under 'Experimental' category?
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Speaking only for myself, given that it is a Layer-2 protocol, I do =
believe that the IETF, or even the ISE is the wrong venue for =
publication.
>>=20
>> As for the maturity level on which to publish, I believe that the =
first question to ask is: why publish as an RFC at all?=20
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't =
<Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl> wrote:
>>> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into =
IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no =
charge through the IEEE Get Program ( =
http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html ) .  HWMP is =
specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>>>=20
>>> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and =
Christopher.
>>>=20
>>> Ronald in 't Velt
>>>=20
>>> >-----Original Message-----
>>> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas =
Heide
>>> >Clausen
>>> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
>>> >To: Henning Rogge
>>> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
>>> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>>> >
>>> >Implementation =3D! Specification
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Thomas Heide Clausen
>>> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
>>> >
>>> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
>>> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
>>> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
>>> >  which has no relation to reality."
>>> > - Nikola Tesla,
>>> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
>>> >
>>> >> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
>>> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>>> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a =
license that
>>> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>>> >>
>>> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, =
so it
>>> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>>> >>
>>> >> Henning Rogge
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> >manet mailing list
>>> >manet@ietf.org
>>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. =
Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk aan u is =
toegezonden, wordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het =
bericht te verwijderen. TNO aanvaardt geen aansprakelijkheid voor de =
inhoud van deze e-mail, de wijze waarop u deze gebruikt en voor schade, =
van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico's verbonden aan het =
elektronisch verzenden van berichten.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> This message may contain information that is not intended for you. =
If you are not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by =
mistake, you are requested to inform the sender and delete the message. =
TNO accepts no liability for the content of this e-mail, for the manner =
in which you use it and for damage of any kind resulting from the risks =
inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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To: Mallikarjun Avula <ma0004@uah.edu>, "Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
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I think that regardless of the process etc. questions (not that those are u=
nimportant) if I picked up such an RFC I'd want it to be understandable (in=
 more than just outline, if not every fine detail) stand alone, and where i=
t chose not to repeat existing material, I'd want that referenced not just =
by document, but by section (at some level). As this is a security document=
, it would need a strong Security Considerations section (I must admit I ha=
ven't got that far in it) to explain itself, as well as good introductory m=
aterial.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> | http:=
//www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mallikarjun Avula
Sent: 26 February 2014 15:57
To: Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't
Cc: MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01


*** WARNING ***
This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter=
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Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme=
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For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you=
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If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process<http://intr=
anet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20W=
ith%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize that=
 there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to ta=
ke comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET. I unders=
tand that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP =
is layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be dire=
cted to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent Subm=
ission' under 'Experimental' category?

On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <Ronald.intVelt@tn=
o.nl<mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>> wrote:
The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE 802=
.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge through =
the IEEE Get Program ( http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html =
) .  HWMP is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.

Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christop=
her.

Ronald in 't Velt

>-----Original Message-----
>From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>]=
 On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
>Clausen
>Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
>To: Henning Rogge
>Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
>Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
>
>Implementation =3D! Specification
>
>--
>Thomas Heide Clausen
>http://www.thomasclausen.org
>
>"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
>  experiments, and they wander off through equation
>  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
>  which has no relation to reality."
> - Nikola Tesla,
>    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
>
>> On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com<mailto:hro=
gge@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
>> <ietf@thomasclausen.org<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>> wrote:
>>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license that
>permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
>>
>> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so it
>> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
>>
>> Henning Rogge
>
>_______________________________________________
>manet mailing list
>manet@ietf.org<mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I think that regardless of the process etc. quest=
ions (not that those are unimportant) if I picked up such an RFC I'd want i=
t to be understandable (in more than just outline, if not every fine detail=
) stand alone, and where it chose
 not to repeat existing material, I'd want that referenced not just by docu=
ment, but by section (at some level). As this is a security document, it wo=
uld need a strong Security Considerations section (I must admit I haven't g=
ot that far in it) to explain itself,
 as well as good introductory material.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
">Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: &#43;44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: &#43;44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US=
"><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F=
497D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | http://www.baesystems.com<br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (O=
perations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, =
Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mallikarjun Avula<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 26 February 2014 15:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't<br>
<b>Cc:</b> MANET IETF<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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nd:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,=
&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b>=
</p>
</div>
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<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;san=
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welco=
me more. I realize that there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Network=
s yet so I wanted to take comments from the closest working group which I t=
hink is MANET. I understand that my
 internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP is layer-2 f=
orwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be directed to or d=
o you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent Submission' unde=
r 'Experimental' category?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) i=
n 't &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl" target=3D"_blank">Ronald.=
intVelt@tno.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been=
 absorbed into IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be availabl=
e at no charge through the IEEE Get Program (
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html" target=3D"_=
blank">http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html</a> ) . &nbsp;HW=
MP is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.<br>
<br>
Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christop=
her.<br>
<br>
Ronald in 't Velt<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bou=
nces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide<br>
&gt;Clausen<br>
&gt;Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08<br>
&gt;To: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;Implementation =3D! Specification<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.t=
homasclausen.org</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&quot;Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for<br>
&gt; &nbsp;experiments, and they wander off through equation<br>
&gt; &nbsp;after equation, and eventually &nbsp;build a structure<br>
&gt; &nbsp;which has no relation to reality.&quot;<br>
&gt; - Nikola Tesla,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 26 f=E9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@thomasclausen.o=
rg</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a lic=
ense that<br>
&gt;permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, s=
o it<br>
&gt;&gt; should be a GPLv2 implementation available.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt;_________________=
______________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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eze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risi=
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<br>
<br>
<br>
This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you a=
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 requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liab=
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om the risks inherent to the electronic transmission of messages.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
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References: <CAMprq2tUNJtbbxYFKG11oC-T9J-+5F_-Xan2CUzRoFQFF60WiQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAMprq2s9swkkvi3ky+s009Nd+EOeHu=5dcCrsKknMbap8vKWQA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGnRvuoQ6VrxdqiP4uoUJqoo2Bcict20bZEgUVSjwdFsvbdr1A@mail.gmail.com> <2B5BA67A-B6D9-4AB9-B10D-99A5EB312BE1@thomasclausen.org> <CAGnRvuoGKJLk=rB6-qugKOpeCSJBtq-fCgBKi+h0c7rgWDvdCw@mail.gmail.com> <B4FF6F99-AC3A-4107-B772-BFBFAFA531D4@thomasclausen.org> <72FB622921C13746AD6349E70A8D9F307DA32178@EXC-MBX03.tsn.tno.nl> <CAMprq2sUFCnXd4vsiqR_0zwTFUUHRzvJD9xFcaST=_W+iwjPrA@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40263EC7@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com>
Archived-At: http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/uhN8PwMyE0inANcPXyxrFBFujZM
Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, "Velt, R. \(Ronald\) in 't" <Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl>
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
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And I think that Chris is right, also regardless of forum. I happen to be a l=
ittle disadvantaged, in that I know HWMP (and 802.11s) better than I really c=
are to admit in public, so I hadn't really thought about that aspect that Ch=
ris points out.

As for security, that is actually a really tricky thing to get right in gene=
ral - but in the 802.11 family there's an awful lot of existing security mec=
hanisms and infrastructures to integrate with. That's actually the part that=
 I'm not so familiar with in .11s ;)

Of course, I actually stopped reading when I got to the security considerati=
ons section, as such always give me a headache ;)

Cheers,

Thomas

Sent from my iPad

> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 19:43, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <Chris.Dearl=
ove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> I think that regardless of the process etc. questions (not that those are u=
nimportant) if I picked up such an RFC I'd want it to be understandable (in m=
ore than just outline, if not every fine detail) stand alone, and where it c=
hose not to repeat existing material, I'd want that referenced not just by d=
ocument, but by section (at some level). As this is a security document, it w=
ould need a strong Security Considerations section (I must admit I haven't g=
ot that far in it) to explain itself, as well as good introductory material.=

> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group
> Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability
> BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre
> West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK
> Tel: +44 1245 242194 |  Fax: +44 1245 242124
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com | http://www.baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems (Operations) Limited
> Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre,=
 Farnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK
> Registered in England & Wales No: 1996687
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mallikarjun Avula=

> Sent: 26 February 2014 15:57
> To: Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't
> Cc: MANET IETF
> Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exte=
rnal partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachm=
ents or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails yo=
u receive, click here.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>=20
> Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcome more. I realize tha=
t there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks yet so I wanted to ta=
ke comments from the closest working group which I think is MANET. I underst=
and that my internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP is=
 layer-2 forwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be directe=
d to or do you think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent Submissi=
on' under 'Experimental' category?
> =20
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't <Ronald.intVelt@t=
no.nl> wrote:
> The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been absorbed into IEEE 80=
2.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available at no charge through t=
he IEEE Get Program ( http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html ) .=
  HWMP is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.
>=20
> Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christo=
pher.
>=20
> Ronald in 't Velt
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide
> >Clausen
> >Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08
> >To: Henning Rogge
> >Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula
> >Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01
> >
> >Implementation =3D! Specification
> >
> >--
> >Thomas Heide Clausen
> >http://www.thomasclausen.org
> >
> >"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for
> >  experiments, and they wander off through equation
> >  after equation, and eventually  build a structure
> >  which has no relation to reality."
> > - Nikola Tesla,
> >    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934
> >
> >> On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> >>
> >> On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen
> >> <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> >>> 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a license tha=
t
> >permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?
> >>
> >> I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so it
> >> should be a GPLv2 implementation available.
> >>
> >> Henning Rogge
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >manet mailing list
> >manet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Dit bericht kan informatie bevatten die niet voor u is bestemd. Indien u n=
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ordt u verzocht dat aan de afzender te melden en het bericht te verwijderen.=
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>=20
>=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>And I think that Chris is right, also r=
egardless of forum. I happen to be a little disadvantaged, in that I know HW=
MP (and 802.11s) better than I really care to admit in public, so I hadn't r=
eally thought about that aspect that Chris points out.</div><div><br></div><=
div>As for security, that is actually a really tricky thing to get right in g=
eneral - but in the 802.11 family there's an awful lot of existing security m=
echanisms and infrastructures to integrate with. That's actually the part th=
at I'm not so familiar with in .11s ;)<br><br>Of course, I actually stopped r=
eading when I got to the security considerations section, as such always giv=
e me a headache ;)</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div=
>Thomas</div><div><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014,=
 at 19:43, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Chris.Dearlove=
@baesystems.com">Chris.Dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">I think that regardless of the process etc. questi=
ons (not that those are unimportant) if I picked up such an RFC I'd want it t=
o be understandable (in more than just outline, if not every fine detail) st=
and alone, and where it chose
 not to repeat existing material, I'd want that referenced not just by docum=
ent, but by section (at some level). As this is a security document, it woul=
d need a strong Security Considerations section (I must admit I haven't got t=
hat far in it) to explain itself,
 as well as good introductory material.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">=
--
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">=
Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">=
Senior Principal Engineer, Communications Group<br>
Communications, Networks and Image Analysis Capability<br>
BAE Systems Advanced Technology Centre<br>
West Hanningfield Road, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, CM2 8HN, UK<br>
Tel: +44 1245 242194&nbsp;|&nbsp; Fax: +44 1245 242124<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">=
<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:#1F497=
D;text-decoration:none">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>
 | <a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com">http://www.baesystems.com</a><br>
<br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">BAE Systems (Ope=
rations) Limited<br>
Registered Office: Warwick House, PO Box 87, Farnborough Aerospace Centre, Fa=
rnborough, Hants, GU14 6YU, UK<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 1996687<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"> manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:m=
anet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Mallikarjun Avula<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 26 February 2014 15:57<br>
<b>To:</b> Velt, R. (Ronald) in 't<br>
<b>Cc:</b> MANET IETF<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgroun=
d:white"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;=
;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center;backgroun=
d:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<o:p></o:p></span></b></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-a=
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<em><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans=
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<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you all for your comments so far and I'd welcom=
e more. I realize that there is no working group for Wireless Mesh Networks y=
et so I wanted to take comments from the closest working group which I think=
 is MANET. I understand that my
 internet draft isn't quite suitable for IETF Manet WG as HWMP is layer-2 fo=
rwarding protocol. Is there any suitable WG that I can be directed to or do y=
ou think this draft better qualifies as an 'Independent Submission' under 'E=
xperimental' category?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Velt, R. (Ronald) in=
 't &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ronald.intVelt@tno.nl" target=3D"_blank">Ronald.in=
tVelt@tno.nl</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The former 802.11s (amendment 10 to 802.11) has been a=
bsorbed into IEEE 802.11-2012. The latter standard appears to be available a=
t no charge through the IEEE Get Program (
<a href=3D"http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://standards.ieee.org/about/get/802/802.11.html</a> ) . &nbsp;HWMP=
 is specified in clause 13.10 of 802.11-2012.<br>
<br>
Fwiw, I concur with the other comments made by Henning, Thomas and Christoph=
er.<br>
<br>
Ronald in 't Velt<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
&gt;-----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-boun=
ces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Thomas Heide<br>
&gt;Clausen<br>
&gt;Sent: woensdag 26 februari 2014 13:08<br>
&gt;To: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;Cc: MANET IETF; Mallikarjun Avula<br>
&gt;Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: draft-avula-shwmp-01<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;Implementation =3D! Specification<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;--<br>
&gt;Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.th=
omasclausen.org</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for<br>
&gt; &nbsp;experiments, and they wander off through equation<br>
&gt; &nbsp;after equation, and eventually &nbsp;build a structure<br>
&gt; &nbsp;which has no relation to reality."<br>
&gt; - Nikola Tesla,<br>
&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp;Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 26 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 11:28, Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 9:42 AM, Thomas Heide Clausen<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@thomasclausen.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; 3) given 2) above, is HWMP available in a form and under a lice=
nse that<br>
&gt;permits a non-IEEE body to produce derivative work?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think the linux kernel 802.11 implementation includes 802.11s, so=
 it<br>
&gt;&gt; should be a GPLv2 implementation available.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">&gt;__________________=
_____________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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s bestemd. Indien u niet de geadresseerde bent of dit bericht abusievelijk a=
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ericht te verwijderen. TNO aanvaardt
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ze gebruikt en voor schade, van welke aard ook, die verband houdt met risico=
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<br>
<br>
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This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you ar=
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From nobody Thu Feb 27 06:28:59 2014
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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Dear all,

I wanted to inform this WG that - by way of Adrian's kind intermediary - =
Ulrich and I are currently starting discussing with some OPS folks =
regarding the various management aspects of MANETs. It happens on the =
opsawg (as recommended by Adrian) as that is where the OPS experts hang =
out.=20

The MANET chairs are in Cc to the ongoing exchanges, and thus can act as =
guarantees that we're neither misrepresenting this WG to OPS nor =
misrepresenting the OPS discussions to this WG.=20

The discussions are only just starting, so there's nothing much to =
report yet, but of course we will try to keep this WG appraised as =
things evolve - so far, the only thing to report is that the OPS guys =
are a friendly and accommodating bunch, asking good questions.

A suivre, donc!

Thomas=


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From: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull it across the finishing line
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Dear all,

Triggered by the discussions that are ongoing with OPSAWG, it came to my =
attention that REPORT-MIB is expired, and has been so expired for almost =
a year (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-report-mib-03 ).=20

I note that this is a WG document, and that therefore the WG is - all of =
us are -  on the hook of seeing it through to publication.

Working on MIBs are really, really, tedious and unexciting and very very =
important work - so this is definitely *not* complaining, and I want to =
express my appreciation to the authors for having gotten the document so =
far. Good job!  I'd like to offer my assistance to the authors (& the =
WG) in seeing this document through and across the finishing line. I am =
a huge proponent of the ideas in that document, and have them =
implemented (but deployed only for test purposes), and I really want to =
see this published ASAP.

Do you need someone to do an editorial pass? Some specifics that need =
further development that you have not had cycles to do, but where fresh =
eyes might help? A review by some directorate, that needs contemplation =
and folding in?

Authors. WG Chairs, what's the status, and how can I help?

Best,

Thomas=


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From: Joe Macker <jpmacker@gmail.com>
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To: Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull it across the finishing line
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I am also a fan of type of reporting concepts related to REPORT-MIB they =
were first inspired way back over a pint in Ireland quite awhile back=85.a=
 good meeting.

Some of the potential reasons for lapse: I think Bob and I were =
discussing whether or not there was duplicative work outside manet ( I =
am definitely not a MGMT standards expert) since some of the concepts =
are really just generally useful and some "wise" time was taken by Bob =
to explore who or what else might be doing similar things.  I would =
actually like to hear his summary thoughts of that exploration.

Bob also has taken input and iterated this a few times to scope it back =
in complexity  as well as exploring other potential IETF synergies that =
might be going on in this area (mentioned above).  If you or others =
implemented related concepts and find them useful thats really a strong =
motivator to getting it back on track and rediscussing.

-Joe
On Feb 27, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org> =
wrote:

> Dear all,
>=20
> Triggered by the discussions that are ongoing with OPSAWG, it came to =
my attention that REPORT-MIB is expired, and has been so expired for =
almost a year (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-report-mib-03 =
).=20
>=20
> I note that this is a WG document, and that therefore the WG is - all =
of us are -  on the hook of seeing it through to publication.
>=20
> Working on MIBs are really, really, tedious and unexciting and very =
very important work - so this is definitely *not* complaining, and I =
want to express my appreciation to the authors for having gotten the =
document so far. Good job!  I'd like to offer my assistance to the =
authors (& the WG) in seeing this document through and across the =
finishing line. I am a huge proponent of the ideas in that document, and =
have them implemented (but deployed only for test purposes), and I =
really want to see this published ASAP.
>=20
> Do you need someone to do an editorial pass? Some specifics that need =
further development that you have not had cycles to do, but where fresh =
eyes might help? A review by some directorate, that needs contemplation =
and folding in?
>=20
> Authors. WG Chairs, what's the status, and how can I help?
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From nobody Thu Feb 27 12:50:58 2014
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Subject: Re: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull it across the finishing line
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Joe,

> On 27 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 19:40, Joe Macker <jpmacker@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I am also a fan of type of reporting concepts related to REPORT-MIB they w=
ere first inspired way back over a pint in Ireland quite awhile back=E2=80=A6=
.a good meeting.
>=20

Most successful protocol designs happen - or, at least, start - in bars.

> Some of the potential reasons for lapse: I think Bob and I were discussing=
 whether or not there was duplicative work outside manet ( I am definitely n=
ot a MGMT standards expert) since some of the concepts are really just gener=
ally useful and some "wise" time was taken by Bob to explore who or what els=
e might be doing similar things.  I would actually like to hear his summary t=
houghts of that exploration.
>=20

Actually, I think that it's immaterial at this point if there is duplicative=
 work outside of MANET. Or, to put it another way:

	1) I've not yet found any

	2) If there is, then I'm pretty sure that the best way to finding o=
ut is to sending it
	   to the IESG. The OPS ADs are pretty sharp, and I am sure that th=
ey'd know, and tell us,
	   once they got their eyes on it, or once their directorate does.

	3) This is going for experimental, and (as far as I have uncovered)=
 doesn't collide
	    with anything std.track, at least. It appears a perfectly valid=
 experiment to see if
	    this architecture fits within the unique world of MANETs.

So, while I am very interested in background and explanations, they're alway=
s educational, I'd submit that we should not drag our feet on this any longe=
r: revive the document, do the reviews and re-spins, WGLC it and then get it=
 off to Adrian for further processing. Having recently re-read it, my guesti=
mate is that with a bit of concentrated effort, it shouldn't necessitate man=
y months to see it through.

As I said, I'm willing to chip in and help out and do my part to make it go f=
orward.

Best,

Thomas

> Bob also has taken input and iterated this a few times to scope it back in=
 complexity  as well as exploring other potential IETF synergies that might b=
e going on in this area (mentioned above).  If you or others implemented rel=
ated concepts and find them useful thats really a strong motivator to gettin=
g it back on track and rediscussing.
>=20
> -Joe
>> On Feb 27, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org> wr=
ote:
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> Triggered by the discussions that are ongoing with OPSAWG, it came to my a=
ttention that REPORT-MIB is expired, and has been so expired for almost a ye=
ar (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-report-mib-03 ).=20
>>=20
>> I note that this is a WG document, and that therefore the WG is - all of u=
s are -  on the hook of seeing it through to publication.
>>=20
>> Working on MIBs are really, really, tedious and unexciting and very very i=
mportant work - so this is definitely *not* complaining, and I want to expre=
ss my appreciation to the authors for having gotten the document so far. Goo=
d job!  I'd like to offer my assistance to the authors (& the WG) in seeing t=
his document through and across the finishing line. I am a huge proponent of=
 the ideas in that document, and have them implemented (but deployed only fo=
r test purposes), and I really want to see this published ASAP.
>>=20
>> Do you need someone to do an editorial pass? Some specifics that need fur=
ther development that you have not had cycles to do, but where fresh eyes mi=
ght help? A review by some directorate, that needs contemplation and folding=
 in?
>>=20
>> Authors. WG Chairs, what's the status, and how can I help?
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Thomas
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20


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From: "Cole, Robert G CIV USARMY CERDEC (US)" <robert.g.cole.civ@mail.mil>
To: Joe Macker <jpmacker@gmail.com>, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull it across the finishing line (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Subject: Re: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull it across the finishing line (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Thomas, Joe,

I have not had the time lately to keep up with the REPORT-MIB (as much as I=
 had hoped to) and am happy that there is interest in this capability.  Whe=
n Joe first proposed it I thought it was a great idea and I still do think =
it is a valuable capability.  I would be more than happy to have others hel=
p or in fact take over ownership of this effort.  I would be glad to help t=
o reinvigorate or transition in any way the WG deems appropriate.

That said, a bit of history.  Our first version of the REPORT-MIB was model=
ed after RMON2 reporting capabilities after discussions with various Operat=
ions Area folks like Bert Wijnen and Andy Bierman.  They had pointed us to =
previous related work in the RMON WG.  However, the scope was too extensive=
 for an initial experimental capability, so we scoped it back.  Andy Bierma=
n came on as a co-author to help as he was the main author of the initial R=
MON related capabilities.

Further discussions with J=FCrgen Sch=F6nw=E4lder convinced us that a bette=
r model for the REPORT-MIB is as an extension to the work that came out of =
the DISMAN WG a number of years ago.  I agree with this.  So we had spent s=
ome cycles looking at DISMAN capabilities and deciding on the right way to =
structure the REPORT-MIB as an extension to the DISMAN set of MIBs.  I thin=
k this is the right approach and we had written down some initial thoughts =
on how to do this but we did not issue a revision to the draft and in fact =
I let it expire.

I am not able to attend the meeting in London, but I would hope and support=
 further discussions on this topic at the WG meetings.  And as I previously=
 mentioned I would welcome and support the WGs recommendations to best move=
 this effort forward.

Thanks, Bob=20

US Army CERDEC
QUEST Program, S&TCD
APG, MD

(c) 443.910.4420
(o) 443.395.8744
robert.g.cole@us.army.mil


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Macker
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2014 1:40 PM
To: Thomas Clausen
Cc: <manet-chairs@tools.ietf.org>; MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull i=
t across the finishing line

I am also a fan of type of reporting concepts related to REPORT-MIB they we=
re first inspired way back over a pint in Ireland quite awhile back..a good=
 meeting.

Some of the potential reasons for lapse: I think Bob and I were discussing =
whether or not there was duplicative work outside manet ( I am definitely n=
ot a MGMT standards expert) since some of the concepts are really just gene=
rally useful and some "wise" time was taken by Bob to explore who or what e=
lse might be doing similar things.  I would actually like to hear his summa=
ry thoughts of that exploration.

Bob also has taken input and iterated this a few times to scope it back in =
complexity  as well as exploring other potential IETF synergies that might =
be going on in this area (mentioned above).  If you or others implemented r=
elated concepts and find them useful thats really a strong motivator to get=
ting it back on track and rediscussing.

-Joe
On Feb 27, 2014, at 9:38 AM, Thomas Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org> wrot=
e:

> Dear all,
>=20
> Triggered by the discussions that are ongoing with OPSAWG, it came to my =
attention that REPORT-MIB is expired, and has been so expired for almost a =
year (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-report-mib-03 ).=20
>=20
> I note that this is a WG document, and that therefore the WG is - all of =
us are -  on the hook of seeing it through to publication.
>=20
> Working on MIBs are really, really, tedious and unexciting and very very =
important work - so this is definitely *not* complaining, and I want to exp=
ress my appreciation to the authors for having gotten the document so far. =
Good job!  I'd like to offer my assistance to the authors (& the WG) in see=
ing this document through and across the finishing line. I am a huge propon=
ent of the ideas in that document, and have them implemented (but deployed =
only for test purposes), and I really want to see this published ASAP.
>=20
> Do you need someone to do an editorial pass? Some specifics that need fur=
ther development that you have not had cycles to do, but where fresh eyes m=
ight help? A review by some directorate, that needs contemplation and foldi=
ng in?
>=20
> Authors. WG Chairs, what's the status, and how can I help?
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



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From: "Cole, Robert G CIV USARMY CERDEC (US)" <robert.g.cole.civ@mail.mil>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <thomas@thomasclausen.org>, Joe Macker <jpmacker@gmail.com>
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From nobody Thu Feb 27 14:15:27 2014
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Subject: Re: [manet] REPORT-MIB - a question and an offer of help to pull it across the finishing line (UNCLASSIFIED)
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Bob,

Thank you for the background and guidance - and for confirming my sentiment t=
hat with an energetic editorial effort, this document could be really close t=
o a finishing line.

I actually am also (unsurprisingly) well aligned with the two steps you outl=
ine below. We need a stable spec, and then some experience - and then fold t=
hose together with wherever the rest of the IETF is once we've gotten enough=
 experience to have an informed opinion on what should become standard.

So, I think that 1) is a good - and, even, necessary - stepping sone towards=
 1. So let's do it?

Thomas

ps: sad to hear that you won't be in London. Might you have time to a teleco=
nf at some point about this?


> On 27 f=C3=A9vr. 2014, at 22:08, "Cole, Robert G CIV USARMY CERDEC (US)" <=
robert.g.cole.civ@mail.mil> wrote:
>=20
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>=20
>=20
> Thomas said:
> "So, while I am very interested in background and explanations, they're al=
ways educational, I'd submit that we should not drag our feet on this any lo=
nger: revive the document, do the reviews and re-spins, WGLC it and then get=
 it off to Adrian for further processing. Having recently re-read it, my gue=
stimate is that with a bit of concentrated effort, it shouldn't necessitate m=
any months to see it through.
>=20
> As I said, I'm willing to chip in and help out and do my part to make it g=
o forward."
>=20
>=20
> Two potential ways to proceed:
>=20
> 1) The last posted draft of the REPORT-MIB gave a simple bucket style appr=
oach to reporting remotely collected measurements back to a centralized mana=
ger.  It is straight forward and as Thomas said with some concentrated effor=
t could finish up rather quickly with an energetic editor.  As an experiment=
al RFC this could provide a useful experimental capability to play with and d=
ecide how best to improve upon for later efforts.=20
>=20
> 2) A longer term effort would be to rewrite it in the context of the DISMA=
N set of MIBs.  But this would take more time and more discussions. =20
>=20
> My feeling is that 2) is the best long term approach, but that 1) would pr=
ovide a more immediate capability to experiment with.
>=20
> Thanks,  Bob
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
> Caveats: NONE
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
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Subject: [manet] AODVv2 routing table entry state issue
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Dear all,
I realize you're probably busy preparing for London, but maybe this is =
still relevant to somebody's interests.
I'd like to propose a small change to the AODVv2 Draft in order to make =
it a bit more exhaustive.

While the Draft states that Idle routes may be used for forwarding, it =
doesn't state any condition under which a route may become Active again. =
This didn't make sense to me, so I asked Charlie and he confirmed that =
an Idle route should indeed become Active when it is used for =
forwarding. As a consequence, I'd like to propose the following change=20=


On Page 11:

   When a route
   is no longer Active, it becomes an Idle route.  After an idle route
   remains Idle for MAX_IDLETIME, it becomes an Expired route.

to

   When a route
   is no longer Active, it becomes an Idle route. Whenever an Idle
   route is used for forwarding, it becomes Active. After an idle route
   remains Idle for MAX_IDLETIME, it becomes an Expired route.

As always, comments are much appreciated.

With kind regards,
Lotte Steenbrink=


From nobody Fri Feb 28 15:42:55 2014
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:42:32 -0800
From: "Charles E. Perkins" <charliep@computer.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03.txt
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Hello folks,

Before I disappeared off the face of the Internet for most of February,
a new revision of AODVv2 was submitted, making various editorial
improvements and corrections mostly in response to comments
made in email and on the list.  Extracting from the Changes section:

    o  The "Added Node" feature was removed.  ...
              ... this is the biggest change, made in response to previous
                  requests for deleting optional features without clear 
benefits....
    o  Numerous editorial improvements and improvements to consistent
       terminology were made.  Instances of OrigNodeNdx and TargNodeNdx
       were replaced by OrigNdx and TargNdx, to be consistent with the
       terminology shown in Table 1.
    o  Example RREQ and RREP message formats shown in the Appendices were
       changed to use OrigSeqNum and TargSeqNum message TLVs instead of
       using the SeqNum message TLV.
    o  Inclusion of the OrigNode's SeqNum in the RREP message is no longer
       specified.
    o  Additional acknowledgements were included, and contributors names
       were alphabetized.
    o  Definitions in the Terminology section capitalize the term to be
       defined.
    o  Uncited bibliographic entries deleted.
    o  Ancient "Changes" sections were deleted.

Comments will be appreciated.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 2/4/2014 8:17 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Charles E. Perkins and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:		draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2
> Revision:	03
> Title:		Dynamic MANET On-demand (AODVv2) Routing
> Document date:	2014-02-04
> Group:		manet
> Pages:		51
> URL:            http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03.txt
> Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2/
> Htmlized:       http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03
> Diff:           http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-03
>
> Abstract:
>     The revised Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) routing
>     protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop
>     networks.  AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers
>     within the network in an on-demand fashion, offering on-demand
>     convergence in dynamic topologies.
>
>                                                                                    
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>

-- 
Regards,
Charlie P.