From nobody Wed Jul 1 01:50:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4481A1A5B for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 01:50:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qSIJi3O_pRNd for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 01:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (ukmta2.baesystems.com [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FCE21A1A57 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 01:50:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,384,1432594800"; d="scan'208";a="891725" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds017.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.104]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2015 09:50:33 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,384,1432594800"; d="scan'208";a="103482165" Received: from glkxh0001v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.32]) by baemasmds017.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2015 09:50:34 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.12]) by GLKXH0001V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 09:50:32 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Henning Rogge Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHQszfpB15XYoXUJEWNsQ2igdIVUp3GToNA Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 08:50:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150629223750.14715.16298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 08:50:38 -0000 QWN0dWFsbHksIGNvbWluZyBvZmYgdGhlIGZlbmNlLCBJJ20gbm90IGEgYmlnIGZhbiBvZiB0aGUg Yml0IHZlY3RvciBpZGVhLCBpdCdzIHJhdGhlciBpbmZsZXhpYmxlIGFuZCBpdCBtYWtlcyBjb21i aW5pbmcgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucyB0aGF0IG1pZ2h0IHVzZSBpdCBtZXNzeS4NCg0KVGhlIG1vc3QgZmxl eGlibGUgb3B0aW9uLCBhbmQgdGhlIG9uZSB3aXRoIGxvd2VzdCBvdmVyaGVhZCBpZiBqdXN0IHVz aW5nIG9uZSBleHRlbnNpb24sIGlzIHRoZSBzZXBhcmF0ZSB0eXBlIGV4dGVuc2lvbnMgZm9yIGRp ZmZlcmVudCBjYXNlcy4gRWFjaCBjYW4gdGhlbiBkZWZpbmUgaXRzIG93biBkYXRhIHJlcXVpcmVt ZW50cy4NCg0KSXQgd291bGQgdGhlbiBiZSB3b3J0aCBjb25zaWRlcmluZyB3aGV0aGVyIHRvIHVz 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dGVtIGFuZCBub3RpZnkgdGhlIHNlbmRlci4KWW91IHNob3VsZCBub3QgY29weSBpdCBvciB1c2Ug aXQgZm9yIGFueSBwdXJwb3NlIG5vciBkaXNjbG9zZSBvcgpkaXN0cmlidXRlIGl0cyBjb250ZW50 cyB0byBhbnkgb3RoZXIgcGVyc29uLgoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKgo= From nobody Wed Jul 1 03:20:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377091B2D1B for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:20:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cmnNSIaKIvr0 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 918291B2D01 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicgi11 with SMTP id gi11so40814173wic.0 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 03:20:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=XRJ9DxNowYKYb0/Ere/9IAKkAT1C/6kJt2WdUEhhMp0=; b=wfz7JDLP+Tcya2ZWWhMuV38MPrBgrvrJWzMMw+jomRovS71ImZgE7VcawiKY7NCojh SOrOl+rcYcHiOJsVVMy614lpRZ008YsyVvnQqp2hvJX67+c+q7Qs+UTE/wSaoX/sHrWQ rUfd6E9LlruKCRuLQla4UjEI8motyHVcWbmBZ0KS+zpqC6gFr6IfP+yTc5jkhNKI/Efy ehaSw/Z+igHx2iPof1WT7t51C+KaiN0WQRmDFtlq1RsV615qjQfg0QRkVQ9h8TMuykB0 GfPzfnHxtIJ5AhpDkQ8HekkvUDqbJ1RWSY44QTbQ6gs47pA2+jgn1F/m0eqq8HJcoVyw 5bvA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.206.84 with SMTP id lm20mr40430737wic.48.1435746033318; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 03:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.86.9 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:20:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150629223750.14715.16298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:20:33 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: PQVu4l8Shv5Ie3N0QpP22zsVBSg Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2664c4dbfd90519cdacbd Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:20:37 -0000 --001a11c2664c4dbfd90519cdacbd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no strong preference. But thinking of flexibility, clarity and readability, having it in a separate type extension seems to be a better idea. I'm think about making use of an allocated type, in: Type 7 Message TLV Type Extensions in which, type extension 0 has been allocated as: 0 MPR_WILLING Bits 0-3 specify the originating router's willingness to act as a flooding MPR; bits 4-7 specify the originating router's willingness to act as a routing MPR. We can ask for type extension 1, SR_WILLING (or SOURCE_ROUTE), to identify a route is willing to join the source route. best Jiazi On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > Actually, coming off the fence, I'm not a big fan of the bit vector idea, > it's rather inflexible and it makes combining extensions that might use i= t > messy. > > The most flexible option, and the one with lowest overhead if just using > one extension, is the separate type extensions for different cases. Each > can then define its own data requirements. > > It would then be worth considering whether to use type extensions of an > already allocated type. That I don't yet have a view on. > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > -----Original Message----- > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge > Sent: 30 June 2015 14:22 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > Cc: manet > Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt > > ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message > originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner > or from the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. > Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions > on reporting suspicious email messages. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > *** WARNING *** > This message originates from outside our organization, either from an > external partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should > click on any links, open any attachments or reply. For additional > information about Spearphishing, click here < > http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Pages/Sp= earphishingTips.aspx>. > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. < > http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document= s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > > For some reason Henning=E2=80=99s message hasn=E2=80=99t reached me, ex= cept as quoted > here. > > > > If we agree there are possible attributes to indicate, source routing > being one, then I can see at least three ways to do that. Here I=E2=80=99= m not > trying to indicate a preference. > > > > (a) We use a bit vector. While there are no more than eight attributes > > defined this takes a single octet value, but might need more later. > > (That would be backwardly compatible using RFC 7188 rules.) > > A bit vector would be fine, especially if we allow to increase the length > later. This would give us "as many capabilities as we want", not that I > expect that many. > > Henning > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --001a11c2664c4dbfd90519cdacbd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have no strong preference. But thinking of flexibility, = clarity and readability, having it in a separate type extension seems to be= a better idea.=C2=A0

I'm think about making use of = an allocated type, in:

Type 7 Message TLV Type Ext= ensions

= in which, type extension 0 has been allocated as:

0 MPR_WILLING Bits= 0-3 specify the originating router's willingness to act as a flooding = MPR; bits 4-7 specify the originating router's willingness to act as a = routing MPR.

We can ask for type extension 1, SR_WILLING (or SOURCE_ROUTE), to id= entify a route is willing to join the source route.=C2=A0

best

Jiazi

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:5= 0 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.co= m> wrote:
Actually, coming off the fence,= I'm not a big fan of the bit vector idea, it's rather inflexible a= nd it makes combining extensions that might use it messy.

The most flexible option, and the one with lowest overhead if just using on= e extension, is the separate type extensions for different cases. Each can = then define its own data requirements.

It would then be worth considering whether to use type extensions of an alr= eady allocated type. That I don't yet have a view on.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
__________________________________________________________________________<= br>
T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.dearlove@baesyst= ems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
Sent: 30 June 2015 14:22
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.= txt

----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This messag= e originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner= or from the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any at= tachments or reply.
Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matte= rs for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages.
--------------------------------------------------------

*** WARNING ***
This message originates from outside our organization, either from an exter= nal partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on= any links, open any attachments or reply. For additional information about= Spearphishing, click here <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/securi= ty/spotlights/Pages/SpearphishingTips.aspx>. If you feel the email i= s suspicious, please follow this process. <http://intrane= t.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With= %20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>

On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baes= ystems.com> wrote:
> For some reason Henning=E2=80=99s message hasn=E2=80=99t reached me, e= xcept as quoted here.
>
> If we agree there are possible attributes to indicate, source routing = being one, then I can see at least three ways to do that. Here I=E2=80=99m = not trying to indicate a preference.
>
> (a) We use a bit vector. While there are no more than eight attributes=
> defined this takes a single octet value, but might need more later. > (That would be backwardly compatible using RFC 7188 rules.)

A bit vector would be fine, especially if we allow to increase the length l= ater. This would give us "as many capabilities as we want", not t= hat I expect that many.

Henning

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manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
**************************************************************= ******
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
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manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--001a11c2664c4dbfd90519cdacbd-- From nobody Wed Jul 1 03:24:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A9401B2D01 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:24:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FR9CoW625i2a for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEC691B2D00 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:24:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,384,1432594800"; d="scan'208,217";a="900652" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds017.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.104]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2015 11:24:02 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,384,1432594800"; d="scan'208,217";a="103504672" Received: from glkxh0003v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.34]) by baemasmds017.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2015 11:24:02 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.12]) by GLKXH0003V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 11:24:02 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Jiazi YI Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHQs+eSsyDAx/SBaUihulEq7hyQ2Z3GaCRQ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 10:24:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150629223750.14715.16298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: 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No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ui84Gpzi5TcP for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FB791A8035 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widjy10 with SMTP id jy10so53605204wid.1 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 03:32:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=MXsX78Sf19+zpQ/0VK5JuhRDf36s27mYM/g+SylOwHg=; b=NO7674E+hABW2RyOYFrZqpARSWQ7I6BluZnO7qIOMV1CqJ77Sj+gIrkQOyE2FHDX+z Z8He1Q3szp/zY9LrF1BErSeXd82st6LXAdGntCpm/pA7ynEUaUUMa4pULOxeMNO074lk zRGogGDoIfvSgBxS7GbCeZQy0pt36bu2GhO746B7lbCLJOH+Sm2YgMjsXAwgUC1a29xJ jFSEuGYzEblRnZey+EeUXFax5TiXlfHTzCx3yFm4J6LX5VnqGRWifLNH8g1i/KlB5ctl fujXtOBaxI3u4Gj7gSIasWcFSU7cAy6eg2dDLOqhtNyzQ4EBxO9qNUWnzgex1lEr2FfX ihMw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.181.11.137 with SMTP id ei9mr4863614wid.48.1435746725722; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 03:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.86.9 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:32:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150629223750.14715.16298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:32:05 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mB760Gu6f9XA1Z26aks8yP2U3FQ Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043892d792fff90519cdd5a2 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:32:10 -0000 --f46d043892d792fff90519cdd5a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, sorry. I was just looking at the IANA protocol registry page. https://www.iana.org/assignments/manet-parameters/manet-parameters.xhtml#me= ssage-tlv-types Then, need to ask for the next available one -- I believe we still have some code points left under type 7 :) Jiazi On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > Type extension 1 of that TLV is already requested by MT-OLSRv2 > (MPR_TYPES). > > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > > > *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Jia= zi > YI > *Sent:* 01 July 2015 11:21 > *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > *Cc:* Henning Rogge; manet > *Subject:* Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > I have no strong preference. But thinking of flexibility, clarity and > readability, having it in a separate type extension seems to be a better > idea. > > > > I'm think about making use of an allocated type, in: > > > > Type 7 Message TLV Type Extensions > > > > in which, type extension 0 has been allocated as: > > > > 0 MPR_WILLING Bits 0-3 specify the originating router's willingness to ac= t > as a flooding MPR; bits 4-7 specify the originating router's willingness = to > act as a routing MPR. > > > > We can ask for type extension 1, SR_WILLING (or SOURCE_ROUTE), to identif= y > a route is willing to join the source route. > > > > best > > > > Jiazi > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > > Actually, coming off the fence, I'm not a big fan of the bit vector idea, > it's rather inflexible and it makes combining extensions that might use i= t > messy. > > The most flexible option, and the one with lowest overhead if just using > one extension, is the separate type extensions for different cases. Each > can then define its own data requirements. > > It would then be worth considering whether to use type extensions of an > already allocated type. That I don't yet have a view on. > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > -----Original Message----- > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge > Sent: 30 June 2015 14:22 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > Cc: manet > Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt > > ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message > originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner > or from the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. > Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions > on reporting suspicious email messages. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > *** WARNING *** > This message originates from outside our organization, either from an > external partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should > click on any links, open any attachments or reply. For additional > information about Spearphishing, click here < > http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Pages/Sp= earphishingTips.aspx>. > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. < > http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document= s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf > > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > > For some reason Henning=E2=80=99s message hasn=E2=80=99t reached me, ex= cept as quoted > here. > > > > If we agree there are possible attributes to indicate, source routing > being one, then I can see at least three ways to do that. Here I=E2=80=99= m not > trying to indicate a preference. > > > > (a) We use a bit vector. While there are no more than eight attributes > > defined this takes a single octet value, but might need more later. > > (That would be backwardly compatible using RFC 7188 rules.) > > A bit vector would be fine, especially if we allow to increase the length > later. This would give us "as many capabilities as we want", not that I > expect that many. > > Henning > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > > --f46d043892d792fff90519cdd5a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah, sorry. I was just looking at the IANA protocol registr= y page.=C2=A0=

Then, need to ask for the next available one -- I belie= ve we still have some code points left under type 7 :)

=
Jiazi


On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Dearlove, Christopher = (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

Type extension 1 of that = TLV is already requested by MT-OLSRv2 (MPR_TYPES).

=

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai<= u>

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 July 2015 11:21
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: Henning Rogge; manet
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multip= ath-04.txt

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***<= /b>

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.


If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.=

I have no strong preference. But thinking of flexibi= lity, clarity and readability, having it in a separate type extension seems= to be a better idea.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

I'm think about making use of an allocated type,= in:

=C2=A0

Type 7 Message TLV Type Extensions

=C2=A0

in which, type extension 0 has been allocated as:=

=C2=A0

0 MPR_WILLING Bits 0-3 specify the originating route= r's willingness to act as a flooding MPR; bits 4-7 specify the originat= ing router's willingness to act as a routing MPR.

=C2=A0

We can ask for type extension 1, SR_WILLING (or SOUR= CE_ROUTE), to identify a route is willing to join the source route.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Dearlove, Christoph= er (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Actually, coming off the fence, I'm not a big fa= n of the bit vector idea, it's rather inflexible and it makes combining= extensions that might use it messy.

The most flexible option, and the one with lowest overhead if just using on= e extension, is the separate type extensions for different cases. Each can = then define its own data requirements.

It would then be worth considering whether to use type extensions of an alr= eady allocated type. That I don't yet have a view on.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
__________________________________________________________________________<= br>
T: =C2=A0+44= (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.de= arlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.c= om/ai
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP


-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
Sent: 30 June 2015 14:22
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.= txt

----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi= nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro= m the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply.
Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instru= ctions on reporting suspicious email messages.
--------------------------------------------------------

*** WARNING ***
This message originates from outside our organization, either from an exter= nal partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on= any links, open any attachments or reply. For additional information about= Spearphishing, click here <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Pages= /SpearphishingTips.aspx>. If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. <http://in= tranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%2= 0With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>


On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baes= ystems.com> wrote:
> For some reason Henning=E2=80=99s message hasn=E2=80=99t reached me, e= xcept as quoted here.
>
> If we agree there are possible attributes to indicate, source routing = being one, then I can see at least three ways to do that. Here I=E2=80=99m = not trying to indicate a preference.
>
> (a) We use a bit vector. While there are no more than eight attributes=
> defined this takes a single octet value, but might need more later. > (That would be backwardly compatible using RFC 7188 rules.)

A bit vector would be fine, especially if we allow to increase the length l= ater. This would give us "as many capabilities as we want", not t= hat I expect that many.

Henning

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************=

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
h= ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

=C2=A0


--f46d043892d792fff90519cdd5a2-- From nobody Wed Jul 1 03:36:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1770C1A8728 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:36:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hWpKZ3nEMh7Q for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B48FA1A8722 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widjy10 with SMTP id jy10so53689519wid.1 for ; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 03:35:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+FX9nwJJZd2CJV9Z9DEC8wfQeucW5EZUjhP0QF90/hY=; b=mBazlWZxM/8H7Pd9Jzv11zpCLB+L+ITUfjzz5QLpRpp2fimogpFbmlTc786ohosRbN WD+Zydjjq+QQGOSmcPjUZAXDP7OaE4y1SifWfLo3U/PJac8X5lyI3XW6Ez8G0XIfqjcI 2BS8SXC8UynZqiQRodsrPVX4q39mLcsYyBPtQ5zcw4nhkJs6UaEbz1aMjhUwVwC31DgK oAUa+XGE6U9NquG3hxVMvWRu/pL6EOIc0sAObCcGBQ9QA5roRUiD/InLhhVIzVgNoUvd Fgu3StZzQ5DRX6an1Lf3lNrAZU/EI7lbBkZ5I89PjwLWLUkNy85YWHy93M3qNaDvkjSh 3YTA== X-Received: by 10.180.101.233 with SMTP id fj9mr42147061wib.45.1435746956414; Wed, 01 Jul 2015 03:35:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:35:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150629223750.14715.16298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 12:35:26 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:36:00 -0000 so "Source Route capability" could become extension 2... and "Source Specific routing capability" potentially later extension 3? Henning Rogge On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 12:24 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: > Type extension 1 of that TLV is already requested by MT-OLSRv2 (MPR_TYPES= ). > > > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, > Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > > > From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi Y= I > Sent: 01 July 2015 11:21 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > Cc: Henning Rogge; manet > Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt > > > > > > *** WARNING *** > > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou > receive, click here. > > > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. > > I have no strong preference. But thinking of flexibility, clarity and > readability, having it in a separate type extension seems to be a better > idea. > > > > I'm think about making use of an allocated type, in: > > > > Type 7 Message TLV Type Extensions > > > > in which, type extension 0 has been allocated as: > > > > 0 MPR_WILLING Bits 0-3 specify the originating router's willingness to ac= t > as a flooding MPR; bits 4-7 specify the originating router's willingness = to > act as a routing MPR. > > > > We can ask for type extension 1, SR_WILLING (or SOURCE_ROUTE), to identif= y a > route is willing to join the source route. > > > > best > > > > Jiazi > > > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > wrote: > > Actually, coming off the fence, I'm not a big fan of the bit vector idea, > it's rather inflexible and it makes combining extensions that might use i= t > messy. > > The most flexible option, and the one with lowest overhead if just using = one > extension, is the separate type extensions for different cases. Each can > then define its own data requirements. > > It would then be worth considering whether to use type extensions of an > already allocated type. That I don't yet have a view on. > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, > Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > -----Original Message----- > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge > Sent: 30 June 2015 14:22 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > Cc: manet > Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt > > ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message > originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner= or > from the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. > Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions= on > reporting suspicious email messages. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > *** WARNING *** > This message originates from outside our organization, either from an > external partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should > click on any links, open any attachments or reply. For additional > information about Spearphishing, click here > . > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > wrote: >> For some reason Henning=E2=80=99s message hasn=E2=80=99t reached me, exc= ept as quoted >> here. >> >> If we agree there are possible attributes to indicate, source routing >> being one, then I can see at least three ways to do that. Here I=E2=80= =99m not >> trying to indicate a preference. >> >> (a) We use a bit vector. While there are no more than eight attributes >> defined this takes a single octet value, but might need more later. >> (That would be backwardly compatible using RFC 7188 rules.) > > A bit vector would be fine, especially if we allow to increase the length > later. This would give us "as many capabilities as we want", not that I > expect that many. > > Henning > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > From nobody Wed Jul 1 03:40:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F4571B2D70 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:40:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Jg0g2LuBqYE for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta4.baesystems.com (ukmta4.baesystems.com [20.133.40.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1A371B2D28 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 03:40:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,384,1432594800"; d="scan'208";a="487603" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasodc005.greenlnk.net) ([10.108.52.29]) by ukmta4.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2015 11:40:03 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,384,1432594800"; d="scan'208";a="107617296" Received: from glkxh0001v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.32]) by baemasodc005.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 01 Jul 2015 11:40:02 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.12]) by GLKXH0001V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Wed, 1 Jul 2015 11:40:02 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Henning Rogge Thread-Topic: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt Thread-Index: AQHQs+eSsyDAx/SBaUihulEq7hyQ2Z3GaCRQ///ykgCAABEHIA== Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2015 10:40:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150629223750.14715.16298.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2015 10:40:07 -0000 SSB0aGluayB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIHdvcmsuIEl0IHNlZW1zIGEgc3VpdGFibGUgVExWIHRvIHVzZSwg YXMgdGhlIGV4aXN0aW5nIHR3byBlc3NlbnRpYWxseSBzaWduYWwgYW4gZXh0ZW5zaW9uIChjb25z 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cmlidXRlIGl0cyBjb250ZW50cyB0byBhbnkgb3RoZXIgcGVyc29uLg0KPiAqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKg0K Pg0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBt YW5ldCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gbWFuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9tYW5ldA0KPg0KPg0K From nobody Thu Jul 2 13:49:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78ACC1A0065; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qCMoKM61W-SA; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B48221A007E; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:49:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.4.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150702204907.17296.46634.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:49:07 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 20:49:10 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) Authors : Jiazi Yi Benoit Parrein Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2015-07-02 Abstract: This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jul 2 13:54:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79381A0103 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:54:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ekfwWbDwtBRq for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x235.google.com (mail-wi0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 07E921A00BF for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widjy10 with SMTP id jy10so94780585wid.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:54:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=g1b0zpGgZHuRXiB9SDiUr0Nw0TqmL9IjqdOneLv6Ry0=; b=nAQeaZhocblCRxcoVMVVmUKUnPsHZFGpYruK2ucFQPj0hKP6t2qbq52jdmlRZDuLSJ bmF3tJbDGMTPalwqyy4EAJpCrkpUkakZoa5rZLZfbrDal0yl2DjgT2R5SyPPGkUuUvg7 43Ry+NO8Xooi0ykwxtTr4/VHQjrZpaEwwv/3G0lROlyGI/QqEJc76Br00aUFc0qPGYuv dOQiBVZlZr4rGKK0veRG42Ycjq2psN5GrgYJOxKZNA0I4kgJnstTN9NoQWEqruY468j9 bIbwXfvRsh2WTVHtC6CratSN7VQ/SZktWXtids1v08iyPdrTMlPMbfL7tF8feZxnTfnB l5IQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.86.73 with SMTP id n9mr56604240wiz.78.1435870485773; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.86.9 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:54:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150702204907.17296.46634.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150702204907.17296.46634.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 22:54:45 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: iuBhipg7Qho-4ob371eIPtzpFWs Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: manet Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0442806e3f849f0519eaa657 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 20:54:49 -0000 --f46d0442806e3f849f0519eaa657 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi, I just submitted a new revision of olsrv2-multipath draft. The main update is the IANA considerations section (following the model of the olsrv2-MT draft :-P ), based on the discussion in the previous thread http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg17874.html For your convenience, there is the link to the new IANA considerations section: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04#section-12 best Jiazi ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:49 PM Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: manet@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) Authors : Jiazi Yi Benoit Parrein Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2015-07-02 Abstract: This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ manet mailing list manet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --f46d0442806e3f849f0519eaa657 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

I just submitted a= new revision of olsrv2-multipath draft.=C2=A0

The= main update is the IANA considerations section (following the model of the= olsrv2-MT draft :-P ), based on the discussion in the previous thread =C2= =A0http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg17874.html

For your convenience, there is the link to the new = IANA considerations section:=C2=A0



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Fro= m: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Dat= e: Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:49 PM
Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-= manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: manet= @ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
=C2=A0This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group= of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version= 2 (OLSRv2)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Jiaz= i Yi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Benoit Parrein
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2015-07-02

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimiz= ed Link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 pro= tocol.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie= tf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff= ?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--f46d0442806e3f849f0519eaa657-- From nobody Thu Jul 2 13:57:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E641A01FC for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mwOUPu9P_PAi for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x232.google.com (mail-wi0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DB7D1A0163 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wiar9 with SMTP id r9so112838565wia.1 for ; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=LrooMmZ2Fd2mpHQa2s1u9hLL7LRdRUwP/hwkXnEsrHg=; b=KR9Wq7K32Rj9+gWbWrGjfnBwIcjgAgZb/T2ORRxOzVTryyN85jnUU1Xp8GwR1Ra2Py lM/RG4Yovb1877XeKXMPxokrhgqT52ZkJys0KiQxHsG5U7U1Ig8bfq1kDRhamNEpZeEF pEe4bOh6TuacdiNxEWaCRXMMxFOuwatnL2Fkkt5ShKJs9NlqhlntDBJaittlgntQ/sPI RiGu7WxgmM3s86x+lDS3FUF6dFQ/7HmPAijqeZSfd3lTMbzw67YOMbaWMLnTFkYy+NSN mv53ScQvdjZir9p2S9Is6iiya5IdB+0p5KypsYLjmtNiq9pZlCaZN8AH1OWHej+4SnHO eDCQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.22.105 with SMTP id c9mr15429769wjf.120.1435870620824; Thu, 02 Jul 2015 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.86.9 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:57:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150702204907.17296.46634.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 22:57:00 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: hC6vb0itiFD4bgyE50PBRUMUIS8 Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: manet Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d978f4c3a6c0519eaaee5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 20:57:04 -0000 --047d7b5d978f4c3a6c0519eaaee5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Oops, sorry, the link to the new IANA considerations section should be https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05#section-12 Jiazi On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:54 PM, Jiazi YI wrote: > Hi, > > I just submitted a new revision of olsrv2-multipath draft. > > The main update is the IANA considerations section (following the model of > the olsrv2-MT draft :-P ), based on the discussion in the previous thread > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg17874.html > > For your convenience, there is the link to the new IANA considerations > section: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-04#section-12 > > best > > Jiazi > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: > Date: Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:49 PM > Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: manet@ietf.org > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of > the IETF. > > Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link > State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) > Authors : Jiazi Yi > Benoit Parrein > Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2015-07-02 > > Abstract: > This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link > State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple > disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. > The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > --047d7b5d978f4c3a6c0519eaaee5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oops, sorry, the link to the=C2=A0new IANA considerations section should be=C2=A0=


Jiazi

On Thu, = Jul 2, 2015 at 10:54 PM, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:
Hi,=C2=A0
=
I just submitted a new revision of olsrv2-multipath draft.= =C2=A0

The main update is the IANA considerations = section (following the model of the olsrv2-MT draft :-P ), based on the dis= cussion in the previous thread =C2=A0http://www.ietf.or= g/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg17874.html

For your convenience, there is the link to the new IANA considerations sec= tion:=C2=A0


best

Jiazi

---------- Forwarded message ----------From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org= >
Date: Thu, Jul 2, 2015 at 10:49 PM
Subject: [manet] I= -D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc:= manet@ietf.org
=


A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
=C2=A0This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group= of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version= 2 (OLSRv2)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Jiaz= i Yi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Benoit Parrein
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2015-07-02

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimiz= ed Link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 pro= tocol.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie= tf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff= ?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--047d7b5d978f4c3a6c0519eaaee5-- From nobody Thu Jul 2 23:00:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78B01B2CD9; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:00:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Bh3cvk7IhEU; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:00:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5AE1A1B2CD8; Thu, 2 Jul 2015 23:00:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=28192; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1435903237; x=1437112837; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=an+/dKhWP8sP+HsujCjFT3mNYtZR1RwKOmBU0tJDcWo=; b=j51DxNrwmflsSPfTFELrSFwSJfP7k0feVuigOmW7N6lDBJED2MMByl6G M9zdTOYSqOe1As9z7DO13nYML8F0i6SDw8GDdji6T6t3DKsnck1tRgWys ixDle91/or1cQnBZiVaQrm7XPNEKdfqcA4tV4SJxWpkXkyH73EHZb8fy0 s=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,397,1432598400"; d="scan'208,217";a="571358313" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-1.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2015 06:00:34 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.87] (ams-bclaise-8916.cisco.com [10.60.67.87]) by aer-core-1.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t6360XOQ006188; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 06:00:33 GMT To: Susan Hares , "'Alvaro Retana (aretana)'" References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:00:29 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080903030001000605010309" Archived-At: Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org, ops-dir@ietf.org, manet@ietf.org, 'The IESG' , manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 06:00:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080903030001000605010309 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear all, > > *To the Manet author of the comments: * > > To help with the comments: I've pulled them up. > > >>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > > >>However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document, > > >>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think > > >>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > > >>implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example), > > >>which seems to be in line with the > > >>comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could > > >>be created in a separate draft.² > > *Let's go to the higher level purpose* rather than the "not my WG > charter" reasoning. > > If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to have > specific details enough to determine if this experimental protocol is > a success. Otherwise, you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, > or vague review on RFC5444 additions to the protocol. This ends up in > emotional debate without substantial experimental results to back it > up. Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough > detail to settle these arguments with experimental results. > Exactly. As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC 7499 and 7360 Regards, Benoit > > MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac, > and other mobile network changes. > > As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points > out how these experimental results are critical to designing an > appropriate operational interface. > > So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass > this document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a > mistake. Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a > success and put together a plan. BMWG usually does device > compliance. If you want aid on a network-compliance test case, they > will work with and review the document. However, the real expertise > is still in MANET. > > ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss. > > Sue > > PS – If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG chair, I > understand. However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes > and emotions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM > To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; > manet-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > Benoit/Sue: > > Any comments? > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" > wrote: > > >On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" > wrote: > > > > > >[Because the authors didn¹t have time to review the ops-dir comments > > >before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I¹m explicitly > > >cc¹ing it here as well as Sue.] > > > > > >Benoit: > > > > > >Hi! > > > > > >Sorry it took me a while to get to this.. > > > > > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>DISCUSS: > > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review, > > >>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion. > > >. . . > > > > > > > > >>Summary of Comments: > > >> > > >>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes. Five > > >>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft to > > >>judge the experiment valuable. One way to resolve these comments is > > >>to create document providing details on the test that will be run. A > > >>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide > > >>additional high-level guidance in this document. > > > > > >Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides > > >high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated. > > > > > > While general experiences with this protocol extension, including > > > interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific > > > information would be particularly appreciated on the following areas: > > > > > > o Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing > > > this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in > > > particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break > > > the network? > > > > > > o Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, including > > > in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were > > > required. > > > > > > A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as this > > > extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is which > > > link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the > > > metrics to associate with a given link. While this issue is not only > > > related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to > > > maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both > > > experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them, > > > etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that > > > are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types. > > > > > > > > >Clearly the focus is on ³running code²: operation in real deployments > > >and mixed environments. > > > > > > > > >The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > > >However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document, > > >where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think > > >the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > > >implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example), > > >which seems to be in line with the > > >comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could > > >be created in a separate draft.² > > > > > >It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans. In order to > > >not loose Sue¹s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the WG¹s wiki > > >‹ which will allow for other test cases to be added, details included, > > >results reflected, etc. > > > > > > > > >. . . > > >>Major concern 5: Experiments should drive to create operational > > >>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases (ADOV-2, > > >>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2) > > > > > >Completely agree! Implementation and operational experience (not just > > >experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines. > > > > > >Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and > > >guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks. > > > > > >Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but > > >the base protocol and even AODVv2. All these guidelines are important > > >from an operations point of view, but shouldn¹t be tied to this document. > > > > > >Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering. This type of > > >suggestions should be presented for discussion. > > > > > > > > >. . . > > >>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions. > > >> > > >>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the latest > > >>IANA format and information. Barry Leiba and others have noted that the > > >>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section. Rather than > > >>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be > > >>consistent and the format match IANA¹s comments. > > > > > >Barry¹s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an update. > > > > > >The authors have been talking to IANA directly. We are now waiting for > > >review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item with > > >IANA). > > > > > >Thanks! > > > > > >Alvaro. > > > > --------------080903030001000605010309 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Dear all,

To the Manet author of the comments:

 

To help with the comments:  I've pulled them up.

 

>>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! 

>>However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document,

>>where the main purpose is to document the extension.  In fact, I think

>>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by

>>implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example),

>>which seems to be in line with the

>>comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could

>>be created in a separate draft.²

 

Let's go to the higher level purpose rather than the "not my WG charter" reasoning.  

 

If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to have specific details enough to determine if this experimental protocol is a success.  Otherwise, you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, or vague review on RFC5444 additions to the protocol.  This ends up in emotional debate without substantial experimental results to back it up.  Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough detail to settle these arguments with experimental results.

Exactly.
As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC 7499 and 7360

Regards, Benoit

 MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac, and other  mobile network changes.

 

As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points out how these experimental results are critical to designing an appropriate operational interface.

 

So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass this document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a mistake.  Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a success and put together a plan.  BMWG usually does device compliance.  If you want aid on a network-compliance test case, they will work with  and review the document. However, the real expertise is still in MANET.

 

ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss.

 

Sue

 

PS – If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG chair, I understand.  However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes and emotions.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM
To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares
Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS)

 

Benoit/Sue:

 

Any comments?

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com> wrote:

 

>On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

> 

>[Because the authors didn¹t have time to review the ops-dir comments

>before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I¹m explicitly

>cc¹ing it here as well as Sue.]

> 

>Benoit:

> 

>Hi!

> 

>Sorry it took me a while to get to this..

> 

>>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>DISCUSS:

>>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review,

>>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion.

>. . .

> 

> 

>>Summary of Comments:

>> 

>>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes.  Five

>>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft to

>>judge the experiment valuable.  One way to resolve these comments is

>>to create document providing details on the test that will be run.  A

>>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide

>>additional high-level guidance in this document.

> 

>Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides

>high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated.

> 

>   While general experiences with this protocol extension, including

>   interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific

>   information would be particularly appreciated on the following areas:

> 

>   o  Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing

>      this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in

>      particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break

>      the network?

> 

>   o  Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, including

>      in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were

>      required.

> 

>   A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as this

>   extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is which

>   link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the

>   metrics to associate with a given link.  While this issue is not only

>   related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to

>   maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both

>   experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them,

>   etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that

>   are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types.

> 

> 

>Clearly the focus is on ³running code²: operation in real deployments

>and mixed environments.

> 

> 

>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! 

>However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document,

>where the main purpose is to document the extension.  In fact, I think

>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by

>implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example),

>which seems to be in line with the

>comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could

>be created in a separate draft.²

> 

>It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans.  In order to

>not loose Sue¹s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the WG¹s wiki

>‹ which will allow for other test cases to be added, details included,

>results reflected, etc.

> 

> 

>. . .

>>Major concern 5:  Experiments should drive to create operational

>>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases (ADOV-2,

>>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2)

> 

>Completely agree!  Implementation and operational experience (not just

>experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines.

> 

>Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and

>guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks.

> 

>Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but

>the base protocol and even AODVv2.  All these guidelines are important

>from an operations point of view, but shouldn¹t be tied to this document.

> 

>Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering.  This type of

>suggestions should be presented for discussion.

> 

> 

>. . .

>>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions.

>> 

>>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the latest

>>IANA format and information.   Barry Leiba and others have noted that the

>>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section.  Rather than

>>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be

>>consistent and the format match IANA¹s comments.

> 

>Barry¹s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an update.

> 

>The authors have been talking to IANA directly.  We are now waiting for

>review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item with

>IANA).

> 

>Thanks!

> 

>Alvaro.

> 

 


--------------080903030001000605010309-- From nobody Fri Jul 3 01:43:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437FE1ACD1D; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 01:43:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ur3P8Up6Gl10; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 01:43:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta4.baesystems.com (ukmta4.baesystems.com [20.133.40.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 418DC1ACD16; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 01:43:14 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: 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X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktx5u19abMwA; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 01:49:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-3.cisco.com (aer-iport-3.cisco.com [173.38.203.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7893B1ACD1C; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 01:49:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=41547; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1435913365; x=1437122965; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=hRzpK8Z1RnOZHbv23i1NRZ1BuQkow4KKY6qPA128kgM=; b=eeG7wWDJdX1u2ZZVa996s0yfRbY8UbrvpUUbcjV7h9HssYTrEJx6ighI emeTf05Prng4GqkseAaZ0/skpMNTNp2ob7UE9+lNObSLtt/EoPShKwUjk n0V594WERXRAtyR+Lh4sRdn4L5HyipwKrp4iZz44XzWZlm3D2rpYLGLgT 4=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,399,1432598400"; d="scan'208,217";a="546905210" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-4.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 03 Jul 2015 08:49:22 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.87] (ams-bclaise-8916.cisco.com [10.60.67.87]) by aer-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t638nJqJ031098; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 08:49:19 GMT To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , Susan Hares , "'Alvaro Retana (aretana)'" References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <55964C8E.40706@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 10:49:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000703000502000605020900" Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org" , "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , 'The IESG' , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 08:49:30 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000703000502000605020900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 03/07/2015 10:43, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: > > Benoit > > Please note that Sue’s attribution is incorrect, although addressed to > “the Manet author of the comments†these were actually comments from > Alvaro, our AD. We will wait for you and he to have this discussion. > (We may in the meanwhile publish an -06 that addresses any other > outstanding issues.) > Ok, please do push a new version. I believe Alvaro is out of the office for some time. Regards, Benoit > > Christopher > > *-- * > > *Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > **__________________________________________________________________________ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > *From:*Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] > *Sent:* 03 July 2015 07:00 > *To:* Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' > *Cc:* draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > **** WARNING **** > > /This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.// > /Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply./ > /For information regarding //*/Red Flags/*/that you can look out for > in emails you receive, click here > .// > /If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .// > > Dear all, > > *To the Manet author of the comments: * > > To help with the comments: I've pulled them up. > > >>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > > >>However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document, > > >>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I > think > > >>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > > >>implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for > example), > > >>which seems to be in line with the > > >>comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern > 1-4 could > > >>be created in a separate draft.² > > *Let's go to the higher level purpose* rather than the "not my WG > charter" reasoning. > > If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to > have specific details enough to determine if this experimental > protocol is a success. Otherwise, you will continue to have the > OLSR vs. AODV-v2, or vague review on RFC5444 additions to the > protocol. This ends up in emotional debate without substantial > experimental results to back it up. Emotional debates recycle. My > suggestions aim at providing enough detail to settle these > arguments with experimental results. > > Exactly. > As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC > 7499 and 7360 > > Regards, Benoit > > MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac, > and other mobile network changes. > > As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points > out how these experimental results are critical to designing an > appropriate operational interface. > > So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass > this document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a > mistake. Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a > success and put together a plan. BMWG usually does device > compliance. If you want aid on a network-compliance test case, they > will work with and review the document. However, the real expertise > is still in MANET. > > ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss. > > Sue > > PS – If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG chair, I > understand. However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes > and emotions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM > To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org > ; > manet@ietf.org ; manet-chairs@ietf.org > ; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > Benoit/Sue: > > Any comments? > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" > wrote: > > >On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" > wrote: > > > > > >[Because the authors didn¹t have time to review the ops-dir comments > > >before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I¹m explicitly > > >cc¹ing it here as well as Sue.] > > > > > >Benoit: > > > > > >Hi! > > > > > >Sorry it took me a while to get to this.. > > > > > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >>DISCUSS: > > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review, > > >>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion. > > >. . . > > > > > > > > >>Summary of Comments: > > >> > > >>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes. Five > > >>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft to > > >>judge the experiment valuable. One way to resolve these comments is > > >>to create document providing details on the test that will be run. A > > >>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide > > >>additional high-level guidance in this document. > > > > > >Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides > > >high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated. > > > > > > While general experiences with this protocol extension, including > > > interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific > > > information would be particularly appreciated on the following areas: > > > > > > o Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing > > > this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in > > > particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break > > > the network? > > > > > > o Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, including > > > in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were > > > required. > > > > > > A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as this > > > extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is which > > > link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the > > > metrics to associate with a given link. While this issue is not only > > > related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to > > > maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both > > > experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them, > > > etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that > > > are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types. > > > > > > > > >Clearly the focus is on ³running code²: operation in real deployments > > >and mixed environments. > > > > > > > > >The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > > >However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document, > > >where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think > > >the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > > >implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example), > > >which seems to be in line with the > > >comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could > > >be created in a separate draft.² > > > > > >It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans. In order to > > >not loose Sue¹s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the WG¹s wiki > > >‹ which will allow for other test cases to be added, details included, > > >results reflected, etc. > > > > > > > > >. . . > > >>Major concern 5: Experiments should drive to create operational > > >>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases (ADOV-2, > > >>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2) > > > > > >Completely agree! Implementation and operational experience (not just > > >experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines. > > > > > >Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and > > >guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks. > > > > > >Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but > > >the base protocol and even AODVv2. All these guidelines are important > > >from an operations point of view, but shouldn¹t be tied to this document. > > > > > >Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering. This type of > > >suggestions should be presented for discussion. > > > > > > > > >. . . > > >>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions. > > >> > > >>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the latest > > >>IANA format and information. Barry Leiba and others have noted that the > > >>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section. Rather than > > >>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be > > >>consistent and the format match IANA¹s comments. > > > > > >Barry¹s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an update. > > > > > >The authors have been talking to IANA directly. We are now waiting for > > >review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item with > > >IANA). > > > > > >Thanks! > > > > > >Alvaro. > > > > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > --------------000703000502000605020900 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 03/07/2015 10:43, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:

Benoit

 

Please note that Sue’s attribution is incorrect, although addressed to “the Manet author of the comments†these were actually comments from Alvaro, our AD. We will wait for you and he to have this discussion. (We may in the meanwhile publish an -06 that addresses any other outstanding issues.)

Ok, please do push a new version. I believe Alvaro is out of the office for some time.

Regards, Benoit

 

Christopher

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
__________________________________________________________________________

T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

 

 

From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]
Sent: 03 July 2015 07:00
To: Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)'
Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS)

 

 

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Dear all,

To the Manet author of the comments:

 

To help with the comments:  I've pulled them up.

 

>>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! 

>>However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document,

>>where the main purpose is to document the extension.  In fact, I think

>>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by

>>implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example),

>>which seems to be in line with the

>>comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could

>>be created in a separate draft.²

 

Let's go to the higher level purpose rather than the "not my WG charter" reasoning.  

 

If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to have specific details enough to determine if this experimental protocol is a success.  Otherwise, you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, or vague review on RFC5444 additions to the protocol.  This ends up in emotional debate without substantial experimental results to back it up.  Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough detail to settle these arguments with experimental results.

Exactly.
As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC 7499 and 7360

Regards, Benoit

 MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac, and other  mobile network changes.

 

As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points out how these experimental results are critical to designing an appropriate operational interface.

 

So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass this document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a mistake.  Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a success and put together a plan.  BMWG usually does device compliance.  If you want aid on a network-compliance test case, they will work with  and review the document. However, the real expertise is still in MANET.

 

ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss.

 

Sue

 

PS – If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG chair, I understand.  However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes and emotions.

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM
To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares
Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS)

 

Benoit/Sue:

 

Any comments?

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com> wrote:

 

>On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote:

> 

>[Because the authors didn¹t have time to review the ops-dir comments

>before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I¹m explicitly

>cc¹ing it here as well as Sue.]

> 

>Benoit:

> 

>Hi!

> 

>Sorry it took me a while to get to this..

> 

>>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>>DISCUSS:

>>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>> 

>>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review,

>>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion.

>. . .

> 

> 

>>Summary of Comments:

>> 

>>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes.  Five

>>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft to

>>judge the experiment valuable.  One way to resolve these comments is

>>to create document providing details on the test that will be run.  A

>>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide

>>additional high-level guidance in this document.

> 

>Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides

>high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated.

> 

>   While general experiences with this protocol extension, including

>   interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific

>   information would be particularly appreciated on the following areas:

> 

>   o  Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing

>      this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in

>      particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break

>      the network?

> 

>   o  Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, including

>      in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were

>      required.

> 

>   A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as this

>   extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is which

>   link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the

>   metrics to associate with a given link.  While this issue is not only

>   related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to

>   maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both

>   experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them,

>   etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that

>   are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types.

> 

> 

>Clearly the focus is on ³running code²: operation in real deployments

>and mixed environments.

> 

> 

>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! 

>However, I don¹t believe that such detail belongs in this document,

>where the main purpose is to document the extension.  In fact, I think

>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by

>implementors ‹ similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example),

>which seems to be in line with the

>comments: (Sue wrote) ³The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 could

>be created in a separate draft.²

> 

>It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans.  In order to

>not loose Sue¹s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the WG¹s wiki

>‹ which will allow for other test cases to be added, details included,

>results reflected, etc.

> 

> 

>. . .

>>Major concern 5:  Experiments should drive to create operational

>>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases (ADOV-2,

>>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2)

> 

>Completely agree!  Implementation and operational experience (not just

>experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines.

> 

>Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and

>guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks.

> 

>Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but

>the base protocol and even AODVv2.  All these guidelines are important

>from an operations point of view, but shouldn¹t be tied to this document.

> 

>Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering.  This type of

>suggestions should be presented for discussion.

> 

> 

>. . .

>>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions.

>> 

>>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the latest

>>IANA format and information.   Barry Leiba and others have noted that the

>>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section.  Rather than

>>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be

>>consistent and the format match IANA¹s comments.

> 

>Barry¹s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an update.

> 

>The authors have been talking to IANA directly.  We are now waiting for

>review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item with

>IANA).

> 

>Thanks!

> 

>Alvaro.

> 

 

 

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************


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Fri, 03 Jul 2015 11:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.97.4 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 11:17:21 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: manet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Draft submission cut-off: Monday, July 6 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 18:17:23 -0000 Please note the following deadline: 2015-07-06 (Monday): Internet Draft submission cut-off (for all drafts, including -00) by UTC 23:59 Regards Ulrich From nobody Fri Jul 3 14:20:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79B551A8862; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 14:20:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.054 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.054 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lPz24ATqrZ-Z; 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Christopher: =20 You are correct. Alvaro and I have been exchanging email on the DISCUSS = point. I am still waiting for his next email exchange. My disagreement = with Alvaro is that the draft belongs in BMWG. I think the expertise = for it lies in MANET and it should be accepted as a MANET draft with = co-review on BMWG.=20 =20 On the positive note, would you like help writing up the details of the = tests? Perhaps we can meet at IETF and sketch out the plans. =20 =20 Sue=20 =20 From: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) [mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com]=20 Sent: Friday, July 03, 2015 4:43 AM To: Benoit Claise; Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; = manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org Subject: RE: Benoit Claise's Discuss on = draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) =20 Benoit =20 Please note that Sue=E2=80=99s attribution is incorrect, although = addressed to =E2=80=9Cthe Manet author of the comments=E2=80=9D these = were actually comments from Alvaro, our AD. We will wait for you and he = to have this discussion. (We may in the meanwhile publish an -06 that = addresses any other outstanding issues.) =20 Christopher =20 --=20 Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence _________________________________________________________________________= _ T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great = Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP =20 =20 From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com]=20 Sent: 03 July 2015 07:00 To: Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; = manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on = draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) =20 =20 *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an = external partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any = attachments or reply. For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails = you receive, click here = . If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process = . Dear all, To the Manet author of the comments:=20 =20 To help with the comments: I've pulled them up.=20 =20 >>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! =20 >>However, I don=C2=B9t believe that such detail belongs in this = document,=20 >>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think = >>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by=20 >>implementors =E2=80=B9 similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for = example),=20 >>which seems to be in line with the >>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 = could=20 >>be created in a separate draft.=C2=B2 =20 Let's go to the higher level purpose rather than the "not my WG charter" = reasoning. =20 =20 If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to have = specific details enough to determine if this experimental protocol is a = success. Otherwise, you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, or = vague review on RFC5444 additions to the protocol. This ends up in = emotional debate without substantial experimental results to back it up. = Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough = detail to settle these arguments with experimental results.=20 Exactly. As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC 7499 = and 7360 Regards, Benoit=20 MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac, = and other mobile network changes.=20 =20 As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points out = how these experimental results are critical to designing an appropriate = operational interface.=20 =20 So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass this = document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a mistake. = Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a success and put = together a plan. BMWG usually does device compliance. If you want aid = on a network-compliance test case, they will work with and review the = document. However, the real expertise is still in MANET.=20 =20 ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss.=20 =20 Sue=20 =20 PS =E2=80=93 If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG chair, = I understand. However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes = and emotions.=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]=20 Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; = manet-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on = draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) =20 Benoit/Sue: =20 Any comments? =20 Thanks! =20 Alvaro. =20 On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" < = aretana@cisco.com> wrote: =20 >On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" < = bclaise@cisco.com> wrote: >=20 >[Because the authors didn=C2=B9t have time to review the ops-dir = comments=20 >before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I=C2=B9m = explicitly=20 >cc=C2=B9ing it here as well as Sue.] >=20 >Benoit: >=20 >Hi! >=20 >Sorry it took me a while to get to this.. >=20 >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>DISCUSS: >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>=20 >>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review,=20 >>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion. >. . . >=20 >=20 >>Summary of Comments: >>=20 >>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes. Five = >>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft to = >>judge the experiment valuable. One way to resolve these comments is=20 >>to create document providing details on the test that will be run. A=20 >>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide=20 >>additional high-level guidance in this document. >=20 >Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides = >high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated. >=20 > While general experiences with this protocol extension, including > interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific > information would be particularly appreciated on the following = areas: >=20 > o Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing > this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in > particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break > the network? >=20 > o Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, = including > in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were > required. >=20 > A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as this > extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is = which > link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the > metrics to associate with a given link. While this issue is not = only > related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to > maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both > experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them, > etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that > are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types. >=20 >=20 >Clearly the focus is on =C2=B3running code=C2=B2: operation in real = deployments=20 >and mixed environments. >=20 >=20 >The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! =20 >However, I don=C2=B9t believe that such detail belongs in this = document,=20 >where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think=20 >the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by=20 >implementors =E2=80=B9 similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for = example),=20 >which seems to be in line with the >comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 = could=20 >be created in a separate draft.=C2=B2 >=20 >It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans. In order to=20 >not loose Sue=C2=B9s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the = WG=C2=B9s wiki=20 >=E2=80=B9 which will allow for other test cases to be added, details = included,=20 >results reflected, etc. >=20 >=20 >. . . >>Major concern 5: Experiments should drive to create operational=20 >>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases (ADOV-2, = >>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2) >=20 >Completely agree! Implementation and operational experience (not just >experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines. >=20 >Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and=20 >guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks. >=20 >Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but=20 >the base protocol and even AODVv2. All these guidelines are important=20 >from an operations point of view, but shouldn=C2=B9t be tied to this = document. >=20 >Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering. This type of=20 >suggestions should be presented for discussion. >=20 >=20 >. . . >>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions. >>=20 >>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the latest >>IANA format and information. Barry Leiba and others have noted that = the >>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section. Rather than=20 >>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be=20 >>consistent and the format match IANA=C2=B9s comments. >=20 >Barry=C2=B9s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an = update. >=20 >The authors have been talking to IANA directly. We are now waiting for = >review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item with = >IANA). >=20 >Thanks! >=20 >Alvaro. >=20 =20 =20 ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** ------=_NextPart_000_026F_01D0B5B4.9D3129D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Christopher:

 

You are correct.=C2=A0 = Alvaro and I have been exchanging email on the DISCUSS point.=C2=A0 I am = still waiting for his next email exchange. =C2=A0My disagreement with = Alvaro is that the draft belongs in BMWG.=C2=A0 I think the expertise = for it lies in MANET and it should be accepted as a MANET draft with = co-review on BMWG.

 

On the positive note, = would you like help writing up the details of the tests?=C2=A0 Perhaps = we can meet at IETF and sketch out the plans. = =C2=A0

 

Sue =

 

From: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) [mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com] =
Sent: Friday, July 03, 2015 4:43 AM
To: Benoit = Claise; Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)'
Cc: = draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; = manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org
Subject: = RE: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: = (with DISCUSS)

 

Benoit

 

Please note = that Sue=E2=80=99s attribution is incorrect, although addressed to = =E2=80=9Cthe Manet author of the comments=E2=80=9D these were actually = comments from Alvaro, our AD. We will wait for you and he to have this = discussion. (We may in the meanwhile publish an -06 that addresses any = other outstanding issues.)

 

Christopher

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems = Applied Intelligence
________________= __________________________________________________________
= =
= T= :  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.c= om
=
= BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great = Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

= BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & = Wales No: 01337451

= Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 = 7YP

 

 

From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] =
Sent: 03 July 2015 07:00
To: Susan Hares; 'Alvaro = Retana (aretana)'
Cc: draft-ietf= -manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The = IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org
Subject: = Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: = (with DISCUSS)

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an = external partner or the internet.
Consider = carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or = reply.
For information regarding = Red= Flags that you can look out for in emails you receive, click here.
If you feel = the email is suspicious, please follow this = process.

Dear all,

To the Manet author of the = comments:

 

To help with the comments:  = I've pulled them up.

 

>>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir = review are great! 

>>However, I don=C2=B9t = believe that such detail belongs in this document, =

>>where the main purpose is to document the = extension.  In fact, I think

>>the suggestions belong = more as part of a test plan (used by

>>implementors =E2=80=B9 = similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example), =

>>which seems to be in line with = the

>>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests = in major concern 1-4 could

>>be created in a separate = draft.=C2=B2

 

Let's go to the higher level = purpose rather than the "not my WG = charter" reasoning.  

 

If you are running an experiment = with this protocol, you need to have specific details enough to = determine if this experimental protocol is a success.  Otherwise, = you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, or vague review on = RFC5444 additions to the protocol.  This ends up in emotional = debate without substantial experimental results to back it up. =  Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough = detail to settle these arguments with experimental results. =

Exactly.
As example, see Status of This Document and = Document Status in RFC 7499 and 7360

Regards, Benoit =

 MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent = of 5G, 802.11ac, and other  mobile network changes. =

 

As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this = work points out how these experimental results are critical to designing = an appropriate operational interface.

 

So.. bottom line... Staying = "not in my charter" and asking to pass this document on = without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a mistake.  Decide = how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a success and put = together a plan.  BMWG usually does device compliance.  If you = want aid on a network-compliance test case, they will work with =  and review the document. However, the real expertise is still in = MANET.

 

ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss. =

 

Sue

 

PS =E2=80=93 If you are tired of the document and debate, = as a WG chair, I understand.  However, the value of the reviews is = a fresh set of eyes and emotions.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] =
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM
To: Benoit Claise = (bclaise); Susan Hares
Cc: draft-ietf= -manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org; The = IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org
Subject: Re: = Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: = (with DISCUSS)

 

Benoit/Sue:

 

Any = comments?

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" = <aretana@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:

 

>On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise = (bclaise)" <bclaise@cisco.com<= /a>> wrote:

> 

>[Because the authors = didn=C2=B9t have time to review the ops-dir comments =

>before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, = I=C2=B9m explicitly

>cc=C2=B9ing it here as well as = Sue.]

> 

>Benoit:

> 

>Hi!

> 

>Sorry it took me a while to = get to this..

> 

>>----------------------------------------------------= ------------------

>>DISCUSS:

>>----------------------------------------------------= ------------------

>> 

>>The multiple points, = brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review,

>>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's = engage in the discussion.

>. . = .

> 

> 

>>Summary of = Comments:

>> 

>>My comments have 6 major = issues, and a set of editorial changes.  Five =

>>of my major points have to do with adding more = details to the draft to

>>judge the experiment = valuable.  One way to resolve these comments is =

>>to create document providing details on the test = that will be run.  A

>>second way to resolve = these comments on experiment is to provide

>>additional high-level = guidance in this document.

> 

>Note that section 1.1 = (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides =

>high-level guidance of the type of information to be = evaluated.

> 

>   While general = experiences with this protocol extension, = including

>   interoperability of implementations, are = encouraged, specific

>   information would be particularly = appreciated on the following areas:

> 

>   o  = Operation in a network that contains both routers = implementing

>      this extension, and = routers implementing only [RFC7181], in

>      particular are there any = unexpected interactions that can break

>      the = network?

> 

>   o  = Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, = including

>      in particular indicating = how many concurrent topologies were

>      = required.

> 

>   A broader issue = that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as = this

>   extension (and potentially to other MANET = routing protocols) is which

>   link metric = types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish = the

>   metrics to associate with a given = link.  While this issue is not only

>   related to this = extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to

>   maintain = different concurrent link metrics may facilitate = both

>   experiments with different link metric = types, ways to measure them,

>   etc. and may = also allow experimentation with link metric types = that

>   are not compromises to handle multiple = traffic types.

> 

> 

>Clearly the focus is on = =C2=B3running code=C2=B2: operation in real deployments =

>and = mixed environments.

> 

> 

>The suggestions for tests = made in the Ops-Dir review are great! 

>However, I don=C2=B9t = believe that such detail belongs in this document, =

>where the main purpose is to document the = extension.  In fact, I think

>the suggestions belong more = as part of a test plan (used by

>implementors =E2=80=B9 = similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for example), =

>which seems to be in line with = the

>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in = major concern 1-4 could

>be created in a separate = draft.=C2=B2

> 

>It is not in the manet WGs = charter to produce test plans.  In order to =

>not = loose Sue=C2=B9s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the WG=C2=B9s = wiki

>=E2=80=B9 which will allow for other test cases to be = added, details included,

>results reflected, = etc.

> 

> 

>. . = .

>>Major concern 5:  Experiments should drive to = create operational

>>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and = use cases (ADOV-2,

>>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2)

> 

>Completely agree!  = Implementation and operational experience (not = just

>experiments) should in fact result in that type of = guidelines.

> 

>Again, the details are not = within the scope of this document..and

>guidance is already given in = 1.1 about the use in real networks.

> 

>Note that this comment = mentions not just the extensions proposed, but

>the base protocol and even = AODVv2.  All these guidelines are important =

>from an operations point of view, but shouldn=C2=B9t be = tied to this document.

> 

>Aside: the MANET WG is in = process of rechartering.  This type of

>suggestions should be = presented for discussion.

> 

> 

>. . = .

>>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the = IANA questions.

>> 

>>It has most of the = information, but I think it is not up to the = latest

>>IANA format and information.   Barry = Leiba and others have noted that the

>>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do = not match this IANA section.  Rather than

>>repeat these comments, I = will simple state the data needs to be

>>consistent and the = format match IANA=C2=B9s comments.

> 

>Barry=C2=B9s comment has = been solved and will be reflected in an update.

> 

>The authors have been = talking to IANA directly.  We are now waiting for =

>review from the MANET registry experts (which is the = one open item with

>IANA).

> 

>Thanks!

> 

>Alvaro.

> 

 

 

************************************************************= ********
This email and any attachments are confidential to the = intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the = intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the = sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose = or
distribute its contents to any other = person.
**************************************************************= ******

------=_NextPart_000_026F_01D0B5B4.9D3129D0-- From nobody Fri Jul 3 15:33:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 327181B318E for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 15:33:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqXgA8ziNTnO for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 15:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vn0-x22a.google.com (mail-vn0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A70C21B3198 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 15:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vnbf7 with SMTP id f7so11039513vnb.1 for ; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 15:32:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=78nBMqUgvTCvXDSw96VWhhBTLu7QFVNNrHzwQGVMbMo=; b=Laq4WBsmBu4yqw2/CISIxFI3rUSmPliC+nEFQJaAB6fy4zm8SOLiW5Vku7qxBWKAr9 bt8SM+/QSemsoFGiTCqrabBH4Q+ixchejwtYb0McCPsMK4lyAivLVs0aF22APr7PukdE 3jn3CYc+bAHn/srxx0wIqgpRrOppifFNX5NMA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=78nBMqUgvTCvXDSw96VWhhBTLu7QFVNNrHzwQGVMbMo=; b=QAArmIdB2RusbYt1//kuhwuVOcSicDcrif3aRsis5EEgkS3ecuh6oO9SjQ2fyyU0u3 Ku4o/3WiKbCMi15rs/D1FkPEJsrK5f/yq5uyJEIPeoatyTFGn+4hTI5HP9040bvFci0Y iKFYByTV2xNmKeTJ2meRgh4KYqdqEegmbH9IBS9rR8Lsz6aYISm8PbB/Thp49OPHwLs3 t2D2bTgu6wk0fwY4WxiyyNKvpkHhWmVSVtGeFiNWPzH0VC3ZZ01dROZG9pbWUUFsE4sj YrhNwVo90r79dkGBEixS5Gk7OU1AWrWzZl/8WYIuW5khT26FCx1l4/WdvA1SCHZigxKU viCQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnK8fHh6DD7Sab1n0o7Jc1amCEvxWnduxMWZARzkfB/ZcryzcLt+u1oALA7zYjb5G+YvDQl MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.104.7 with SMTP id ga7mr38759795vdb.16.1435962752999; Fri, 03 Jul 2015 15:32:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.97.4 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Jul 2015 15:32:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2015 15:32:32 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: Justin Dean Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] DAT and DLEP status X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2015 22:33:26 -0000 The chairs have asked me to update the status of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric to "waiting for write-up". The WGLC has ended. Best regards Ulrich On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Justin Dean wrote: > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-05 > Since no objections were raised and I think the document is ready > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-05 is now in WGLC. Proposed experimental > status for this draft. It provides a method for calculating the routing > metrics to be used with OLSRv2 routing. Please review the draft. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ > The WGLC has ended for dlep. Comments to the list have resulted in rapid > updating of the draft. I'll be moving this forward shortly. Stan in another > message requested that we move this forward and I've only seen +1s in > response. As Stan likes to say silence will be taken as acceptance. > > Justin Dean > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > From nobody Mon Jul 6 01:56:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 898A11A9143; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 01:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e9fkeJfEGs31; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 01:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6C221A912A; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 01:56:12 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,414,1432594800"; d="scan'208,217";a="1100115" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds017.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.104]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 06 Jul 2015 09:56:09 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,414,1432594800"; d="scan'208,217";a="103996439" Received: from glkxh0002v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.33]) by baemasmds017.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 06 Jul 2015 09:56:10 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.122]) by GLKXH0002V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:56:09 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Susan Hares , 'Benoit Claise' , "'Alvaro Retana (aretana)'" Thread-Topic: Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHQtVWZlnY1dogSdkGsCVYl7YCUyZ3JbQlwgADDzoCAA/a+8A== Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:56:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> <026e01d0b5d6$243b28b0$6cb17a10$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <026e01d0b5d6$243b28b0$6cb17a10$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40F27FC2GLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org" , "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , 'The IESG' , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 08:56:23 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D40F27FC2GLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 U3VlDQoNCknigJltIGFmcmFpZCBJIGFncmVlIHdpdGggQWx2YXJvIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBsZXZlbCBv ZiBkZXRhaWwgaXMgaW5hcHByb3ByaWF0ZSBpbiB0aGUgZHJhZnQuIEkgZG9u4oCZdCBldmVuIHVu ZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIGNvbW1lbnQgdGhhdCDigJx0aGUgZHJhZnQgYmVsb25ncyBpbiBCTVdH4oCd LiBUaGUgZHJhZnQgYmVsb25ncyBpbiBNQU5FVC4NCg0KT25lIG9mIHRoZSBpc3N1ZXMgdGhhdCB5 b3VyIGFwcHJvYWNoIHdvdWxkIHJhaXNlIGlzIHRoYXQgaXQgd291bGQgYmVjb21lIGhhcmRlciB0 byBwdWJsaXNoIGFuIEV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCBkcmFmdCB0aGFuIGEgUHJvcG9zZWQgU3RhbmRhcmQu DQoNCkkgd29u4oCZdCBiZSBpbiBQcmFndWUuIEkgaGFkIGF0IG9uZSBwb2ludCBob3BlZCB0byBi ZSwgYnV0IGEgY29tYmluYXRpb24gb2YgY2lyY3Vtc3RhbmNlcyBoYXMgcnVsZWQgdGhhdCBvdXQu DQoNCkNocmlzdG9waGVyDQoNCi0tDQpDaHJpc3RvcGhlciBEZWFybG92ZQ0KU2VuaW9yIFByaW5j aXBhbCBFbmdpbmVlcg0KQkFFIFN5c3RlbXMgQXBwbGllZCBJbnRlbGxpZ2VuY2UNCl9fX19fX19f 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Jul 6 08:17:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B10531A8989; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pnXTooMwVNCw; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D38A1B2A93; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:17:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.4.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150706151726.18608.69322.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 08:17:26 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 15:17:32 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP) Authors : Stan Ratliff Bo Berry Cisco Systems Darryl Satterwhite Rick Taylor Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt Pages : 66 Date : 2015-07-06 Abstract: When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make routing decisions. In mobile or other environments where these characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not allow the router to make the best decisions. A bidirectional, event- driven communication channel between the router and the modem is necessary. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 6 08:43:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1251B2D5C; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:43:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qm6nxln4Q-R6; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8AE11B2D5E; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 08:43:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.4.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150706154351.9650.32842.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 08:43:51 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 15:43:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) Routing Authors : Charles E. Perkins Stan Ratliff John Dowdell Lotte Steenbrink Victoria Mercieca Filename : draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt Pages : 100 Date : 2015-07-06 Abstract: The revised Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) routing protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop networks. AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within the network in an on-demand fashion, offering rapid convergence in dynamic topologies. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 6 09:19:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3DB51B2F99 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:19:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GRD8uDiRBPWE for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vn0-x233.google.com (mail-vn0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E64321B2F9B for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vnbf62 with SMTP id f62so8099984vnb.8 for ; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 09:18:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ENjff6PSEaM/sU92mkrRI112Cp/SgTBg/FnnvcAOO54=; b=jY3FOz7bj5yWLVVhjAlXUbRi2uutVnGUe9+hCRnuPHCnLG+O7WaSq5hDp/qGvEC+eV 3WcmMBThQlq41qkwOkVIMo+7nSQTqNmQ8AgUgsJlOl/8mooO3oJzMOUZk0jM/YnxJQm7 QEJ3gCsIsnudLGW5RWWD1dcGXT6to3+aLJbe0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ENjff6PSEaM/sU92mkrRI112Cp/SgTBg/FnnvcAOO54=; b=JFMoTCoQj1IG2fNyTgEQAMAQSbkbUO7e2pgpMs5uDAVhl6N3AQZN6iMEkavx+JosbA 3b/NKfTohNLlIHRLBEpd429qEu/ZOP6wHlH/N7RPSHATYWivS9uqRdwcongISICnLlZ1 UocaEAG1MBDWDtTZV0K0Z7sA508xfuXq2giSIegO8sYJutDfB1REO+zxUL14MCcDuflK kEwyOIa4U4iGr2I1M7tWfq9ZJsrXfiKgNLSfZyMBLgpzF107tjZRGN26Rg8q+jkH64jb MQy2u+8+zNTiH2u+QwUZoq/qtM56/deXVM71nU/dDOHGu+sSBbc8FNT6J4djPOHg8c9L Ao4g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkUkxN4JKtcPSOWIg+IE+545mDIIdUDC56cO3zK67DXk8tEoMy2Ysh5PG7XHlcgDuw1wHqT MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.104.7 with SMTP id ga7mr51205333vdb.16.1436199536097; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 09:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.97.130 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:18:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> <026e01d0b5d6$243b28b0$6cb17a10$@ndzh.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:18:55 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org" , The IESG , Benoit Claise Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:19:17 -0000 +1 Regards Ulrich On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:56 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: > Sue > > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid I agree with Alvaro that this level of detail is inapp= ropriate in > the draft. I don=E2=80=99t even understand the comment that =E2=80=9Cthe = draft belongs in > BMWG=E2=80=9D. The draft belongs in MANET. > > > > One of the issues that your approach would raise is that it would become > harder to publish an Experimental draft than a Proposed Standard. > > > > I won=E2=80=99t be in Prague. I had at one point hoped to be, but a combi= nation of > circumstances has ruled that out. > > > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, > Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > > > From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] > Sent: 03 July 2015 22:21 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); 'Benoit Claise'; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)= ' > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > > > *** WARNING *** > > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou > receive, click here. > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. > > Christopher: > > > > You are correct. Alvaro and I have been exchanging email on the DISCUSS > point. I am still waiting for his next email exchange. My disagreement > with Alvaro is that the draft belongs in BMWG. I think the expertise for= it > lies in MANET and it should be accepted as a MANET draft with co-review o= n > BMWG. > > > > On the positive note, would you like help writing up the details of the > tests? Perhaps we can meet at IETF and sketch out the plans. > > > > Sue > > > > From: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) [mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com] > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2015 4:43 AM > To: Benoit Claise; Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > Benoit > > > > Please note that Sue=E2=80=99s attribution is incorrect, although address= ed to =E2=80=9Cthe > Manet author of the comments=E2=80=9D these were actually comments from A= lvaro, our > AD. We will wait for you and he to have this discussion. (We may in the > meanwhile publish an -06 that addresses any other outstanding issues.) > > > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, > Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] > Sent: 03 July 2015 07:00 > To: Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > > > *** WARNING *** > > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou > receive, click here. > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. > > Dear all, > > To the Manet author of the comments: > > > > To help with the comments: I've pulled them up. > > > >>>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > >>>However, I don=C2=B9t believe that such detail belongs in this document, > >>>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think > >>>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > >>>implementors =E2=80=B9 similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for examp= le), > >>>which seems to be in line with the > >>>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 c= ould > >>>be created in a separate draft.=C2=B2 > > > > Let's go to the higher level purpose rather than the "not my WG charter" > reasoning. > > > > If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to have > specific details enough to determine if this experimental protocol is a > success. Otherwise, you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, or > vague review on RFC5444 additions to the protocol. This ends up in > emotional debate without substantial experimental results to back it up. > Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough detail = to > settle these arguments with experimental results. > > Exactly. > As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC 7499 a= nd > 7360 > > Regards, Benoit > > MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac, and > other mobile network changes. > > > > As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points out = how > these experimental results are critical to designing an appropriate > operational interface. > > > > So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass this > document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a mistake. > Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a success and put > together a plan. BMWG usually does device compliance. If you want aid o= n a > network-compliance test case, they will work with and review the documen= t. > However, the real expertise is still in MANET. > > > > ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss. > > > > Sue > > > > PS =E2=80=93 If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG chair, = I > understand. However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes and > emotions. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM > To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; > manet-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > Benoit/Sue: > > > > Any comments? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" wrote: > > > >>On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" wrote: > >> > >>[Because the authors didn=C2=B9t have time to review the ops-dir comments > >>before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I=C2=B9m explicitly > >>cc=C2=B9ing it here as well as Sue.] > >> > >>Benoit: > >> > >>Hi! > >> > >>Sorry it took me a while to get to this.. > >> > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>DISCUSS: > >>>---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review, > >>>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion. > >>. . . > >> > >> > >>>Summary of Comments: > >>> > >>>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes. Five > >>>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft to > >>>judge the experiment valuable. One way to resolve these comments is > >>>to create document providing details on the test that will be run. A > >>>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide > >>>additional high-level guidance in this document. > >> > >>Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already provides > >>high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated. > >> > >> While general experiences with this protocol extension, including > >> interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific > >> information would be particularly appreciated on the following areas: > >> > >> o Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing > >> this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in > >> particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break > >> the network? > >> > >> o Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof, including > >> in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were > >> required. > >> > >> A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as this > >> extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is which > >> link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the > >> metrics to associate with a given link. While this issue is not only > >> related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to > >> maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both > >> experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them, > >> etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that > >> are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types. > >> > >> > >>Clearly the focus is on =C2=B3running code=C2=B2: operation in real deplo= yments > >>and mixed environments. > >> > >> > >>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > >>However, I don=C2=B9t believe that such detail belongs in this document, > >>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think > >>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > >>implementors =E2=80=B9 similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for exampl= e), > >>which seems to be in line with the > >>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 co= uld > >>be created in a separate draft.=C2=B2 > >> > >>It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans. In order to > >>not loose Sue=C2=B9s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the WG=C2= =B9s wiki > >>=E2=80=B9 which will allow for other test cases to be added, details incl= uded, > >>results reflected, etc. > >> > >> > >>. . . > >>>Major concern 5: Experiments should drive to create operational > >>>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases (ADOV-2, > >>>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2) > >> > >>Completely agree! Implementation and operational experience (not just > >>experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines. > >> > >>Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and > >>guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks. > >> > >>Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but > >>the base protocol and even AODVv2. All these guidelines are important > >>from an operations point of view, but shouldn=C2=B9t be tied to this docu= ment. > >> > >>Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering. This type of > >>suggestions should be presented for discussion. > >> > >> > >>. . . > >>>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions. > >>> > >>>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the latest > >>>IANA format and information. Barry Leiba and others have noted that th= e > >>>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section. Rather than > >>>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be > >>>consistent and the format match IANA=C2=B9s comments. > >> > >>Barry=C2=B9s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an update. > >> > >>The authors have been talking to IANA directly. We are now waiting for > >>review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item with > >>IANA). > >> > >>Thanks! > >> > >>Alvaro. > >> > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > From nobody Mon Jul 6 09:28:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBE501B2F81; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:27:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -99.055 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-99.055 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DOS_OUTLOOK_TO_MX=2.845, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6sNS0HR77d17; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hickoryhill-consulting.com (hhc-web3.hickoryhill-consulting.com [64.9.205.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D4231B2F7A; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:27:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Default-Received-SPF: pass (skip=loggedin (res=PASS)) x-ip-name=174.124.203.226; From: "Susan Hares" To: "'Ulrich Herberg'" , "'Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)'" References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> <026e01d0b5d6$243b28b0$6cb17a10$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 12:27:48 -0400 Message-ID: <01a501d0b808$b2f145b0$18d3d110$@ndzh.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQELvMZoBgjCE5iqXPy91Hp57pY8LwIwXgyBAM9TWuAB+taBlgJGeUkNAp+TxeUC00G/PwDkwyB3AlhASnOe2RDK8A== Content-Language: en-us X-Authenticated-User: skh@ndzh.com Archived-At: Cc: ops-dir@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org, manet@ietf.org, draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org, 'The IESG' , 'Benoit Claise' Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:27:56 -0000 Ulrich and Chris:=20 Thank you for your comments. You will receive additional email regarding = this topic after the IETF deadline.=20 Sue=20 -----Original Message----- From: Ulrich Herberg [mailto:ulrich@herberg.name]=20 Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 12:19 PM To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Cc: Susan Hares; Benoit Claise; Alvaro Retana (aretana); = draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; ops-dir@ietf.org; = manet@ietf.org; The IESG; manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on = draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) +1 Regards Ulrich On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 1:56 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) = wrote: > Sue > > > > I=E2=80=99m afraid I agree with Alvaro that this level of detail is=20 > inappropriate in the draft. I don=E2=80=99t even understand the = comment that=20 > =E2=80=9Cthe draft belongs in BMWG=E2=80=9D. The draft belongs in = MANET. > > > > One of the issues that your approach would raise is that it would=20 > become harder to publish an Experimental draft than a Proposed = Standard. > > > > I won=E2=80=99t be in Prague. I had at one point hoped to be, but a=20 > combination of circumstances has ruled that out. > > > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > ______________________________________________________________________ > ____ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great=20 > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales = > No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > > > From: Susan Hares [mailto:shares@ndzh.com] > Sent: 03 July 2015 22:21 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); 'Benoit Claise'; 'Alvaro Retana = (aretana)' > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org;=20 > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > > > *** WARNING *** > > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an=20 > external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any=20 > attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in=20 > emails you receive, click here. > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. > > Christopher: > > > > You are correct. Alvaro and I have been exchanging email on the=20 > DISCUSS point. I am still waiting for his next email exchange. My=20 > disagreement with Alvaro is that the draft belongs in BMWG. I think=20 > the expertise for it lies in MANET and it should be accepted as a=20 > MANET draft with co-review on BMWG. > > > > On the positive note, would you like help writing up the details of=20 > the tests? Perhaps we can meet at IETF and sketch out the plans. > > > > Sue > > > > From: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)=20 > [mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com] > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2015 4:43 AM > To: Benoit Claise; Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org;=20 > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: RE: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > Benoit > > > > Please note that Sue=E2=80=99s attribution is incorrect, although = addressed to=20 > =E2=80=9Cthe Manet author of the comments=E2=80=9D these were actually = comments from=20 > Alvaro, our AD. We will wait for you and he to have this discussion.=20 > (We may in the meanwhile publish an -06 that addresses any other=20 > outstanding issues.) > > > > Christopher > > > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence > ______________________________________________________________________ > ____ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great=20 > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales = > No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > > > From: Benoit Claise [mailto:bclaise@cisco.com] > Sent: 03 July 2015 07:00 > To: Susan Hares; 'Alvaro Retana (aretana)' > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org;=20 > manet-chairs@ietf.org; 'The IESG'; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > > > *** WARNING *** > > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an=20 > external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any=20 > attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in=20 > emails you receive, click here. > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. > > Dear all, > > To the Manet author of the comments: > > > > To help with the comments: I've pulled them up. > > > >>>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > >>>However, I don=C2=B9t believe that such detail belongs in this = document, > >>>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I=20 >>>think > >>>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > >>>implementors =E2=80=B9 similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for = example), > >>>which seems to be in line with the > >>>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in major concern = 1-4=20 >>>could > >>>be created in a separate draft.=C2=B2 > > > > Let's go to the higher level purpose rather than the "not my WG = charter" > reasoning. > > > > If you are running an experiment with this protocol, you need to have=20 > specific details enough to determine if this experimental protocol is=20 > a success. Otherwise, you will continue to have the OLSR vs. AODV-v2, = > or vague review on RFC5444 additions to the protocol. This ends up in = > emotional debate without substantial experimental results to back it = up. > Emotional debates recycle. My suggestions aim at providing enough=20 > detail to settle these arguments with experimental results. > > Exactly. > As example, see Status of This Document and Document Status in RFC=20 > 7499 and > 7360 > > Regards, Benoit > > MANET has lots of exciting work to do in the advent of 5G, 802.11ac,=20 > and other mobile network changes. > > > > As you noted, the reviews on operational portion of this work points=20 > out how these experimental results are critical to designing an=20 > appropriate operational interface. > > > > So.. bottom line... Staying "not in my charter" and asking to pass=20 > this document on without settling on a mechanism to fix it - is a = mistake. > Decide how the MANET WG is going to determine this is a success and=20 > put together a plan. BMWG usually does device compliance. If you=20 > want aid on a network-compliance test case, they will work with and = review the document. > However, the real expertise is still in MANET. > > > > ON IANA ... That's covered by Barry's discuss. > > > > Sue > > > > PS =E2=80=93 If you are tired of the document and debate, as a WG = chair, I=20 > understand. However, the value of the reviews is a fresh set of eyes=20 > and emotions. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2015 11:39 AM > To: Benoit Claise (bclaise); Susan Hares > Cc: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org;=20 > manet-chairs@ietf.org; The IESG; ops-dir@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Benoit Claise's Discuss on > draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) > > > > Benoit/Sue: > > > > Any comments? > > > > Thanks! > > > > Alvaro. > > > > On 6/15/15, 4:02 PM, "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" = wrote: > > > >>On 5/28/15, 9:26 AM, "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" = wrote: > >> > >>[Because the authors didn=C2=B9t have time to review the ops-dir = comments > >>before the telechat, or before they became a DISCUSS, I=C2=B9m = explicitly > >>cc=C2=B9ing it here as well as Sue.] > >> > >>Benoit: > >> > >>Hi! > >> > >>Sorry it took me a while to get to this.. > >> > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>- > >>>DISCUSS: > >>>--------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>- > >>> > >>>The multiple points, brought up by Sue part of her OPS-DIR review, > >>>deserve a DISCUSS. Let's engage in the discussion. > >>. . . > >> > >> > >>>Summary of Comments: > >>> > >>>My comments have 6 major issues, and a set of editorial changes. =20 >>>Five > >>>of my major points have to do with adding more details to the draft=20 >>>to > >>>judge the experiment valuable. One way to resolve these comments is > >>>to create document providing details on the test that will be run. A > >>>second way to resolve these comments on experiment is to provide > >>>additional high-level guidance in this document. > >> > >>Note that section 1.1 (Motivation and Experimentation) already=20 >>provides > >>high-level guidance of the type of information to be evaluated. > >> > >> While general experiences with this protocol extension, including > >> interoperability of implementations, are encouraged, specific > >> information would be particularly appreciated on the following = areas: > >> > >> o Operation in a network that contains both routers implementing > >> this extension, and routers implementing only [RFC7181], in > >> particular are there any unexpected interactions that can break > >> the network? > >> > >> o Operation in realistic deployments, and details thereof,=20 >> including > >> in particular indicating how many concurrent topologies were > >> required. > >> > >> A broader issue that applies to unextended [RFC7181] as well as=20 >> this > >> extension (and potentially to other MANET routing protocols) is=20 >> which > >> link metric types are useful in a MANET, and how to establish the > >> metrics to associate with a given link. While this issue is not=20 >> only > >> related to this extension, the ability for an OLSRv2 network to > >> maintain different concurrent link metrics may facilitate both > >> experiments with different link metric types, ways to measure them, > >> etc. and may also allow experimentation with link metric types that > >> are not compromises to handle multiple traffic types. > >> > >> > >>Clearly the focus is on =C2=B3running code=C2=B2: operation in real = deployments > >>and mixed environments. > >> > >> > >>The suggestions for tests made in the Ops-Dir review are great! > >>However, I don=C2=B9t believe that such detail belongs in this = document, > >>where the main purpose is to document the extension. In fact, I think > >>the suggestions belong more as part of a test plan (used by > >>implementors =E2=80=B9 similar maybe to the work done in bmwg, for = example), > >>which seems to be in line with the > >>comments: (Sue wrote) =C2=B3The recommended tests in major concern 1-4 = >>could > >>be created in a separate draft.=C2=B2 > >> > >>It is not in the manet WGs charter to produce test plans. In order to > >>not loose Sue=C2=B9s valuable input, I suggest we keep them in the = WG=C2=B9s=20 >>wiki > >>=E2=80=B9 which will allow for other test cases to be added, details = included, > >>results reflected, etc. > >> > >> > >>. . . > >>>Major concern 5: Experiments should drive to create operational > >>>guidelines for deployment, configuration knobs, and use cases=20 >>>(ADOV-2, > >>>OLSR-v2, MT-OLSR-v2) > >> > >>Completely agree! Implementation and operational experience (not just > >>experiments) should in fact result in that type of guidelines. > >> > >>Again, the details are not within the scope of this document..and > >>guidance is already given in 1.1 about the use in real networks. > >> > >>Note that this comment mentions not just the extensions proposed, but > >>the base protocol and even AODVv2. All these guidelines are important > >>from an operations point of view, but shouldn=C2=B9t be tied to this = document. > >> > >>Aside: the MANET WG is in process of rechartering. This type of > >>suggestions should be presented for discussion. > >> > >> > >>. . . > >>>Major 6: The IANA section does not answer all the IANA questions. > >>> > >>>It has most of the information, but I think it is not up to the=20 >>>latest > >>>IANA format and information. Barry Leiba and others have noted that = the > >>>RFC 7181 and RFC7188 do not match this IANA section. Rather than > >>>repeat these comments, I will simple state the data needs to be > >>>consistent and the format match IANA=C2=B9s comments. > >> > >>Barry=C2=B9s comment has been solved and will be reflected in an = update. > >> > >>The authors have been talking to IANA directly. We are now waiting=20 >>for > >>review from the MANET registry experts (which is the one open item=20 >>with > >>IANA). > >> > >>Thanks! > >> > >>Alvaro. > >> > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended=20 > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended=20 > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or=20 > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > From nobody Mon Jul 6 09:30:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C9F61B2F60; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:30:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BHgjmDCIReEx; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (ukmta2.baesystems.com [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B765E1A8792; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:30:21 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,415,1432594800"; d="scan'208";a="1137030" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds017.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.104]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 06 Jul 2015 17:30:20 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,415,1432594800"; d="scan'208";a="104088221" Received: from glkxh0002v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.33]) by baemasmds017.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 06 Jul 2015 17:30:19 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.122]) by GLKXH0002V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 17:30:20 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Susan Hares , 'Ulrich Herberg' Thread-Topic: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) Thread-Index: AQHQtVWZlnY1dogSdkGsCVYl7YCUyZ3JbQlwgADDzoCAA/a+8IAAa+SAgAACfACAABDrIA== Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 16:30:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> <026e01d0b5d6$243b28b0$6cb17a10$@ndzh.com> <01a501d0b808$b2f145b0$18d3d110$@ndzh.com> In-Reply-To: <01a501d0b808$b2f145b0$18d3d110$@ndzh.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org" , 'The IESG' , 'Benoit Claise' Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on 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ZWFzZSBkZWxldGUgaXQgZnJvbSB5b3VyIHN5c3RlbSBhbmQgbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIuDQo+ IFlvdSBzaG91bGQgbm90IGNvcHkgaXQgb3IgdXNlIGl0IGZvciBhbnkgcHVycG9zZSBub3IgZGlz Y2xvc2Ugb3IgDQo+IGRpc3RyaWJ1dGUgaXRzIGNvbnRlbnRzIHRvIGFueSBvdGhlciBwZXJzb24u DQo+ICoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioq KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqDQo+DQo+DQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IG1hbmV0IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiBtYW5ldEBpZXRmLm9yZw0K PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL21hbmV0DQo+DQoNCg== From nobody Mon Jul 6 09:32:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 710F71B2FAA; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:32:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pPsFMnI7jlSb; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D22841B2FD0; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 09:32:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.4.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150706163216.29224.63664.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 09:32:16 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-06.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:32:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multi-Topology Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) Authors : Christopher Dearlove Thomas Heide Clausen Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-06.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2015-07-06 Abstract: This specification describes an extension to the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to support multiple routing topologies, while retaining interoperability with OLSRv2 routers that do not implement this extension. This specification updates RFC 7188 and [tlv-naming] by modifying and extending TLV registries and descriptions. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jul 6 11:03:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6816B1A3BA4 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 11:03:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OB2W8Xvvu_jE for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 11:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x234.google.com (mail-la0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C72791A1B19 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 11:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by labgy5 with SMTP id gy5so12859823lab.2 for ; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 11:03:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=ss+54NPiFLRwMSX508VM+z2vfl3dtR4hK6O7xQY2IuQ=; b=ydyVrjNc4TTIw8KASXw4udZ7KRN7tKMA8ztKuJHBLSPykwPJEtxwGI+rquPtmWInyc 5eGJh7nULOWsD6ekOfs+S5bzSbEh8gUiT1Uh26v7Otu8lMwNzA7NHFiggiu73qGIBtM1 HHloA3I0wV0pYEppFuZejg8X1cBSBnYrttfXcesZu3ogQshb/rfVF2zYjqqrkdRU+ewH YYLW2T0g6YKhokHxnKUA7JqJXneRc+/yLtKbV4uQ7k0whLi1mwgoWmoyazMVsCvxM9nr dSVQMdzSMRWcmVyLE2rwLpjD0AYylypmS1ExIu5sXJV1J+a+V2ftWJ6ILVE7YF0FRm3d ZzLA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.41.171 with SMTP id g11mr63231lbl.123.1436205801247; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 11:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.12.1 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 11:03:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150706154351.9650.32842.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150706154351.9650.32842.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2015 14:03:21 -0400 Message-ID: From: Stan Ratliff To: MANET IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11346d9c9b9883051a38b8a1 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 18:03:25 -0000 --001a11346d9c9b9883051a38b8a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Working group participants, The latest version of the AODVv2 draft is ready for your review and comment. We on the editorial team believe this revision addresses all of the issues that were identified in Dallas. We respectfully ask the WG to consider this draft for Working Group Last Call. Regards, Stan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:43 AM Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: manet@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) Routing Authors : Charles E. Perkins Stan Ratliff John Dowdell Lotte Steenbrink Victoria Mercieca Filename : draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt Pages : 100 Date : 2015-07-06 Abstract: The revised Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) routing protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop networks. AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within the network in an on-demand fashion, offering rapid convergence in dynamic topologies. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ manet mailing list manet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --001a11346d9c9b9883051a38b8a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Working group participants,=C2= =A0

The latest version of the AODVv2 draft i= s ready for your review and comment. We on the editorial team believe this = revision addresses all of the issues that were identified in Dallas.=C2=A0<= /div>

We res= pectfully ask the WG to consider this draft for Working Group Last Call.=C2= =A0

Re= gards,
Stan


= ---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <= internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:43 = AM
Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: manet@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
=C2=A0This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group= of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) Routing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Char= les E. Perkins
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Stan Ratliff
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 John Dowdell
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lotte Steenbrink
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Victoria Mercieca
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-manet-aodvv2-10.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 100
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2015-07-06

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The revised Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) routing<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, mu= ltihop
=C2=A0 =C2=A0networks.=C2=A0 AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 = routers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0within the network in an on-demand fashion, offering rapid
=C2=A0 =C2=A0convergence in dynamic topologies.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ie= tf-manet-aodvv2/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-a= odvv2-10

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddr= aft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--001a11346d9c9b9883051a38b8a1-- From nobody Mon Jul 6 23:41:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 661231A90FB for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:41:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YGsi2nxIZXKF for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22b.google.com (mail-wg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2FC31A8841 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgck11 with SMTP id k11so158682856wgc.0 for ; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 23:41:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=1bBdwXvDHa9eIs7q1q1owkoMleE1ilFCaXCe6yLT2qw=; b=kAjHsD8raeuRW+ixaud+uBCnoLoQM6Fhex1VKs8bSJghaKpXEUz2lzicbBX08fB47r xdN5iNxWWzupvgX6K1ZgN0eYeB9S2lYGyMwlCtkNP2VXon4KbqeCmIRZKWDMFV7CnyNv FSYWqiP10JtACBe3S8KBQ/GzM9BQLIo6BRO6pdtcTMKC4ih+tCLQpbHjbe9ZgEzP9mcm 2u4Mv+d/gF+vASvTPFfLIX4wZwShnPPwvGdead/EWrzmzXIAhjLU42at1vZyiMtxq2RA xhtlb3lRUlhSKXP9Kd0gzZr20lMmhoEMs6HzACo41vIfCIAv1pdgBh3hj9l2C6zsvBmK yCpA== X-Received: by 10.180.101.233 with SMTP id fj9mr97330040wib.45.1436251268667; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 23:41:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:40:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150706151726.18608.69322.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150706151726.18608.69322.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 08:40:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: MANET IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 06:41:11 -0000 On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 5:17 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP) > Authors : Stan Ratliff > Bo Berry > Cisco Systems > Darryl Satterwhite > Rick Taylor > Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt > Pages : 66 > Date : 2015-07-06 Hi, I think the draft 15 solves quite a few issues, but there is one thing I promised Rick to raise when he pushed draft 15. I think it would be better to replace the "dlep" prefix for the UDP packets with a single Zero Octet (0x00) for both UDP packets and the start of all TCP sessions (once per TCP connection, not once for each Signal/Message). First, this would make communication more consistent because TCP and UDP would be handled the same. Second, we could call the Zero Octet the "DLEP version"... if we ever need another one, we can just increment it to 0x01 and have a guarantee that we don't clash with old versions. Third, the Zero byte is enough to make sure that DLEP-14 instances don't process new (DLEP-16?) DLEP data... and it is enough that new (DLEP-16) instances don't process DLEP-14 data. Henning Rogge From nobody Mon Jul 6 23:45:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC941A89C5 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:45:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rmlxFKyA8mwR for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x234.google.com (mail-wg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8234E1A8A90 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgck11 with SMTP id k11so158754722wgc.0 for ; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 23:45:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Z9OD/Xdj1gCZF4DQN9AIN+g05V/KXy5ZqxcVsO1uN7s=; b=B7dlJxN1taWltqvU1QSM/ce2Zunr65+QzGxJIk07tWy+5FkpSzEI5tBTuQ9aXVEOOn v9wVExjxhshjwNQxa8hCOy7RXAvRpaE1nNt3MyRY6gb4OM1ZVgJ3B2x025sNGMjXqe9m ibSpWQybOvxoOImH8vUsQ9lMKtSz45TEyD8BQIpGigtMPomjxr3o/KTh9aJy15FNrbU5 Gewn+q3qEMrZXPMq4lMHYGpeoSiTsEZ/sYOvKYssfQS05iPTP0sh62Vrbd/PAzs3YsKj /Qf28lZDSDlpoTsY9Elf8ku0q8Z8/n04UZUXUliqWjQazzJHH2vFWQDeBQW1nTEAw2M6 ahDw== X-Received: by 10.180.94.35 with SMTP id cz3mr60081826wib.85.1436251503331; Mon, 06 Jul 2015 23:45:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Jul 2015 23:44:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20150706154351.9650.32842.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 08:44:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: Stan Ratliff Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-10.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 06:45:05 -0000 On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 8:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote: > Working group participants, > > > The latest version of the AODVv2 draft is ready for your review and comment. > We on the editorial team believe this revision addresses all of the issues > that were identified in Dallas. > > We respectfully ask the WG to consider this draft for Working Group Last > Call. I think this should (at least) resolve the issues with RFC5444 encoding... every address is cleanly tagged with an address block TLV that belongs to AODV2... and there is no dependency left in the protocol to the order of addresses or the split into address blocks. Henning Rogge From nobody Tue Jul 7 02:37:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E6F1A8757 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 02:37:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1WEz2Fj5nQIo for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 02:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DCCA41A8750 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 02:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 10:36:51 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: Henning Rogge , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt Thread-Index: AQHQt/714QnPMrbaYkuqFuqbPDEJvw== Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 09:36:50 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2EEFEA@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <20150706151726.18608.69322.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 09:37:19 -0000 Comments inline...=0A= =0A= On 07/07/15 07:41, Henning Rogge wrote:=0A= > On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 5:17 PM, wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc= tories.=0A= >> This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group = of the IETF.=0A= >>=0A= >> Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP)=0A= >> Authors : Stan Ratliff=0A= >> Bo Berry=0A= >> Cisco Systems=0A= >> Darryl Satterwhite=0A= >> Rick Taylor=0A= >> Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-15.txt=0A= >> Pages : 66=0A= >> Date : 2015-07-06=0A= >=0A= > Hi,=0A= >=0A= > I think the draft 15 solves quite a few issues, but there is one thing=0A= > I promised Rick to raise when he pushed draft 15.=0A= >=0A= > I think it would be better to replace the "dlep" prefix for the UDP=0A= > packets with a single Zero Octet (0x00) for both UDP packets and the=0A= > start of all TCP sessions (once per TCP connection, not once for each=0A= > Signal/Message).=0A= =0A= As I have mentioned before Henning, my issue with a 0-byte as an =0A= identifier rather than 'DLEP' is that with the Peer Discovery Signal =0A= there is only 1 optional data item, so if the router does not include =0A= it, using your proposal, a valid Peer discovery signal is just:=0A= =0A= 00 00 01 00 00=0A= =0A= In my opinion, this just isn't a 'unique' enough fingerprint to be used =0A= by a parser to determine that this is a signal. I know this is =0A= subjective, and when I originally had this discussion off-list with you =0A= the case was worse (00 00 00 00 00).=0A= =0A= The same example with the draft-15 proposal is:=0A= =0A= 'D' 'L' 'E' 'P' 00 01 00 00=0A= =0A= >=0A= > First, this would make communication more consistent because TCP and=0A= > UDP would be handled the same.=0A= =0A= I am not worried about making the UDP and TCP layout consistent. The =0A= main driver for renaming the TCP signals to messages was to =0A= differentiate them, as the handling of messages is very different to the = =0A= handling of signals.=0A= =0A= As has now been stated more explicitly in draft-15, after TCP =0A= connection, the first two octets received MUST be:=0A= =0A= 00 03=0A= =0A= Adding a prefix of 0 seems to add nothing extra to me.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > Second, we could call the Zero Octet the "DLEP version"... if we ever=0A= > need another one, we can just increment it to 0x01 and have a=0A= > guarantee that we don't clash with old versions.=0A= =0A= We have attempted to move DLEP away from a versioned protocol, into a =0A= protocol with standardized extensions. The proposed extension mechanism = =0A= gives far more flexibility than a linear version numbering system.=0A= =0A= The only thing that would require a 'version 2' of DLEP would be a =0A= totally breaking change at the message layout level, and at that point I = =0A= would argue that it is no longer DLEP but something 'newer and better' =0A= and it should have different address/port allocations. In the same way =0A= as OLSR and OLSRv2, I believe. Am I right in thinking that it is almost = =0A= impossible to write an OLSR-both agent? (I'm not saying that this is a =0A= problem for OLSRv2 btw).=0A= =0A= Others please note: I do not want to reopen the versioning discussion.=0A= =0A= >=0A= > Third, the Zero byte is enough to make sure that DLEP-14 instances=0A= > don't process new (DLEP-16?) DLEP data... and it is enough that new=0A= > (DLEP-16) instances don't process DLEP-14 data.=0A= =0A= I agree; but *any* leading octets that do not match the DLEP < v15 peer =0A= discovery header can be used for that purpose, 0 has no special benefit.=0A= =0A= The same applies for the TCP connection first octets, and they already =0A= differ sufficiently.=0A= =0A= Also, I'm not sure the WG would humour us taking time to make changes to = =0A= support back compatibility with earlier drafts.=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= From nobody Tue Jul 7 05:03:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEF31AC3B4 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:03:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b7jgHlkcyRfI for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy4-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.23.142]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 81AC91AC3B5 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4065 invoked by uid 0); 7 Jul 2015 12:03:41 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy4.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 2015 12:03:41 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id pPtF1q00t2SSUrH01PtJBW; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 05:53:19 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=ALgDonD0 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=AGkejYDSTmIA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=zOBTXjUuO1YA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=SE27jZn11jVLPEPtNXcA:9 a=K-iCil22hckJC9D-:21 a=F0CD53uHxDw8tlEj:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=xBrCz280WmBjUpXHzrqlAdQa3+g0BL0yXezlJ5CcUn0=; b=qhDQkugj2GvYCcRqGdoAZjx2NT4tFa3f4DKGOfA1S7CCrO7PzNx1zMXH2ZzN54rAn9ZwhjJdU/BxUcEgPUky6xJGgHN2QFFSw/7t1c5f0DDEt6cwV6VzVMFBDVaFMTFB; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:53869 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZCRb6-0003Nh-T9; Tue, 07 Jul 2015 06:03:37 -0600 Message-ID: <559BC014.6040609@labn.net> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 08:03:32 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org References: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:03:49 -0000 [Dropping routing directorate as document is back with WG.] Authors, Now that -15 is out, what are your thoughts on continuing the discussion on (and closing) the points raised in the review? Thanks, Lou On 6/8/2015 3:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.] > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as was the > case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the > Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please > see ​http://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chairs and) > Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with > any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve > them through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 > Reviewer: Lou Berger > Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comments -- sorry) > WG LC End Date: unknown > Intended Status: Standards track > > Summary: > > While I think the document is pretty decent for the scope of the > work, I do have concerns about this document and recommend that the > WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. > I'm also available as/if needed to discuss. > > Comments: > > I think the document shows significant good work and looks to be a > useful protocol, although I'm not overly familiar in this space. > That said, I have a number of serious concerns about the document, > and its contents from a few of perspectives. These include basic > protocol issues, underspecified details (which could lead to > interoperability issues), and specification/editorial issues. I > think the document / protocol can be modified to address the issues > I raise below. Of course, it is up to the WG, chairs, and ADs to > decide which comments to address and which to ignore. > I don't expect that all comments will result in changes. > > Major Issues: > > - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8 > bits. While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measure, > which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for > larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. -- > We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain. > > - Version number is currently defined as a data item. This means a > signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to > discover what version is being used. This precludes basic format > changes to the protocol. Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals > should be special cased to include version in their formats. (And > shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below). > > - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and > 'discovery' states. These either need to be formally defined or > removed. BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) and > ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of the > process. > > - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship > with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined. For example: > > o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in a > way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior > (close TCP before ACK is received). > > o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP > session be reused or must it be closed too? > > - There is no transaction model defined. For example, it's > completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at a > time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps > there are no restrictions. This needs to be explicit. > > - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP? Retries > aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being used. > > - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really > clear. It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliable > transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. Of > course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others > should be clear. For example, in section 7.10, why would there be > a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an > error? > > - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there really > none? For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limit > Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle > the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go > down. > > - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to > define their own 'heuristics'. Some of these seem unnecessary due > to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protocol > should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent > behavior from implementations. > > - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental > Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8). Both seem to support for > optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values, > why the latter uses UTF-8 strings. > o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between > these? > o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized? > > - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items. The > definition related to these basically says a resources is "An > 8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of > resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.". If I were > implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce, > update or use this information. I think there is some missing > informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these > formats. > > - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar > problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if > there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link quality > that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is just > passed for as monitoring information. Either way, this needs to > be clarified. > > - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the one > documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged, > but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of > credits relative to the data plane. > > - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g., > optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port. Generally > allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability > issues. The document should pick one way and require it. > > - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirements > on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no > ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within > Signals. > > - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a > signal isn't always clear. For example are 0/1/N copies of a > particular Data Item required/allowed. Using something like ABNF > would really help formalize and clarify this. > > - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrative > text, normative / required processing procedures, and message > formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it just > makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol. > What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate > (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for > omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error > processing). Specific examples are included above and below. It > would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior is > defined just once and in a consistent way. > > - The security consideration section is inadequate. This section > should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user > traffic. It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possible > exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol. rfc6952, > and the protocols it references can serve as examples. > > Minor Issues: > > - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits. This seems > pretty small, particularly the data type field. Given this is a > control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field > would provide better "future proofing". > > - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1). This seems a > bit excessive. I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself. > > - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to have a > generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mention > this here as this may come up again when clarifying the > transaction model (as mentioned above.) > > - Section 2: Assumptions > This section includes informative and normative text so is more > than just Assumptions. Personally, I'd remove all normative text > from the section. > > - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation. > > - Sections 8.10->8.17. Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnets > in destination update signals? > > - The IANA Considerations sections must follow​ RFC2360. > > - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in > the document. (The document currently has many TBDs that should > be replaced.) > > - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.: > The registry should be established with registration policies of > "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and > “Specification Required" (for other documents). The designated > expert is any current WG chair. > > Nits: > > - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for > what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in > other protocols. It's probably too late to change this, but I > think the introduction of unique terminology is counter > productive. > > - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there are > words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look at > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some > suggestions. > > - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times. It > really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the wire. > > - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably octets) > > - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add value, > suggest dropping them. > > - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent? > > - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable length > field. > > - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable length > field. > > That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anything. Look forward > to hearing response to the above (and how I got things hopelessly wrong ;-) > > Lou > > > > From nobody Tue Jul 7 05:48:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F651A01AA; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:48:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ypyctmr-aPkp; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ironport.idirect.net (ironport2.idirect.net [198.180.159.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF07F1A01BA; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 05:48:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: None (ironport.idirect.net: no 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webmail.idirect.net) ([10.250.250.202]) by ironport.idirect.net with ESMTP; 07 Jul 2015 08:48:23 -0400 Received: from VAUSDITCHM3.idirect.net (10.250.250.203) by VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net (10.250.250.202) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1076.9; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 08:48:21 -0400 Received: from VAUSDITCHM3.idirect.net ([fe80::f4eb:7acb:f0a8:3226]) by VAUSDITCHM3.idirect.net ([fe80::f4eb:7acb:f0a8:3226%15]) with mapi id 15.00.1076.000; Tue, 7 Jul 2015 08:48:21 -0400 From: "Ratliff, Stanley" To: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 Thread-Index: AQHQoh7bMo+Tw3COyECGObxkTDTDb53QWLMA///JMyA= Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 12:48:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> <559BC014.6040609@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <559BC014.6040609@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.250.250.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 12:48:31 -0000 TG91LCANCg0KSSB0aGluayB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGJlIGEgZ29vZCBpZGVhIC0geW91ciByZXZpZXcg d2FzIHdoYXQgcHJvbXB0ZWQgbW9zdCAoaWYgbm90IGFsbCkgb2YgdGhlIGNoYW5nZXMgZnJvbSAt MTQgdG8gLTE1LiANCg0KUmVnYXJkcywNClN0YW4NCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2Fn ZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IExvdSBCZXJnZXIgW21haWx0bzpsYmVyZ2VyQGxhYm4ubmV0XQ0KPiBT ZW50OiBUdWVzZGF5LCBKdWx5IDA3LCAyMDE1IDg6MDQgQU0NCj4gVG86IGRyYWZ0LWlldGYtbWFu ZXQtZGxlcC5hbGxAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gQ2M6IG1hbmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6IFJl OiBbUlRHLURJUl0gUnRnRGlyIHJldmlldzogZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi1tYW5ldC1kbGVwLTE0DQo+IA0K 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"draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [manet] [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 Thread-Index: AQHQuMrrgo2ngkPboUiHz+MSqiz/Fw== Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2015 15:38:06 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2F0019@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> <559BC014.6040609@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2015 15:38:45 -0000 TG91LAoKSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIFN0YW4uICBJZiB5b3Ugd2FudCB0byBjaGVjayBpZiB5b3VyIHBv 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score=-14.511 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MzR-Z_MgVz3A; Wed, 8 Jul 2015 05:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-1.cisco.com (aer-iport-1.cisco.com [173.38.203.51]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D0AB1A9081; Wed, 8 Jul 2015 05:46:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1209; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1436359609; x=1437569209; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eqPqh06nHXG4h4M0tUiEFT05AFMBbJ5rv2oDpRm6PI8=; b=R2WXyUJ7ucS8PcLoKGfZzUvKFWCwFIhRImbMQpObmtkIsn8Dbbz1Kwl7 GiDOeZQdDg1ooH8za/UwjyVBKUwj2AfsN+NRNgI/q+1ly/SqZRQAC4T4J B6AqCoS6WiVkGO99eW/m1nUnjYvl3IFpEHZxRY8WUK/EctG0biFdHMzfc I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,431,1432598400"; d="scan'208";a="577189911" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Jul 2015 12:46:47 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.87] (ams-bclaise-8916.cisco.com [10.60.67.87]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id t68CkjwK007751; Wed, 8 Jul 2015 12:46:46 GMT To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , Susan Hares , "'Ulrich Herberg'" References: <20150528132630.13861.80616.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <011401d0af6b$72770ab0$57652010$@ndzh.com> <559624FD.6050407@cisco.com> <026e01d0b5d6$243b28b0$6cb17a10$@ndzh.com> <01a501d0b808$b2f145b0$18d3d110$@ndzh.com> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <559D1BB5.3020805@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:46:45 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "ops-dir@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , 'The IESG' , "draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multitopology-05: (with DISCUSS) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:47:14 -0000 Dear all, > As far as I am concerned, the matter is currently in the hands of Alvaro and Benoit (and any other interested ADs). > Alvaro and I were supposed to have a 1:1 on this topic some time ago, but was canceled due to a doctor appointment. I believe that Alvaro is still off or traveling. So let me try to summarize my view with a couple of high level points: - I'm with Sue here: we need to understand how/when this experiment will be successful. - I'm not specifically requesting the complete and precise series of test (a la BMWG, even if we know that BMWG is more about benchmarking) - "Just approve this document, and we will have another future draft" is not appropriate. How/when this experiment will be successful must be linked to this document. And btw, I've seen that argument from MANET in the past (see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6779/ballot/#benoit-claise) and I'm still waiting for that draft... So maybe the way out of this is to list the tests in this draft appendix (the tests mentioned by Sue and maybe some others), basically what to pay attention to be able to conclude whether or not the experiment is successful Regards, Benoit From nobody Thu Jul 9 13:40:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238AF1A016B; Thu, 9 Jul 2015 13:40:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u22YKNokTRGS; Thu, 9 Jul 2015 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87DB91A017D; Thu, 9 Jul 2015 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by oiyy130 with SMTP id y130so197808815oiy.0; Thu, 09 Jul 2015 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZFlJjnJ5r+MuVi74DGkk6guU0XcMINR4t8bNZgW+p94=; b=KDjJ+Gu9Mbm9C3C0x2z3GBND1G5OhqFi7FhsDzyrHLKK3hXGZivSWbChjKDxI6e9dS UpdswTcP8N7Q1oftBhsYNIUIYCy5MPxIwUSR1Ug5sYoiX+5IJI7ZKwigS+RVzKZx0WVV WI7fmGkvfGbgWQdLA2MnNfcilz7iwkC8Cv7pX3FCL0vq5RiTtDsRo168FmDjP6pwC8NS YwrTjfH8U9icTMDgTdbsF8GgfP3LaA38fbTflgfrjKRLmURPj+OLYnu/N4DFqqdJFLMf Gu5vwym53z86t3Q0t+VA73kx6HeR+5w5ojfnAyVgxsv+exT4t52cRc1FtlNKdXGWhc9N Ygnw== X-Received: by 10.60.60.70 with SMTP id f6mr15899311oer.8.1436474436960; Thu, 09 Jul 2015 13:40:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> <559BC014.6040609@labn.net> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2F0019@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2F0019@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> From: Justin Dean Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2015 20:40:25 +0000 Message-ID: To: Rick Taylor , Stanley Ratliff , Lou Berger , draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e015374ac8b4755051a774427 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2015 20:40:43 -0000 --089e015374ac8b4755051a774427 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given the number of changes due to the number of comments I think a bullet point summary from the editors (or an email per major issue) about what the changes were and how the issues were fixed would be appropriate. Justin Dean On Tue, Jul 7, 2015, 11:38 AM Rick Taylor wrote: > Lou, > > I agree with Stan. If you want to check if your points have been > addressed, and perhaps raise anything outstanding as a new thread that > would be helpful. > > Thanks, > > Rick > > On 07/07/15 13:48, Ratliff, Stanley wrote: > > Lou, > > > > I think that would be a good idea - your review was what prompted most > (if not all) of the changes from -14 to -15. > > > > Regards, > > Stan > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 8:04 AM > >> To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org > >> Cc: manet@ietf.org > >> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 > >> > >> [Dropping routing directorate as document is back with WG.] > >> > >> Authors, > >> Now that -15 is out, what are your thoughts on continuing the > discussion > >> on (and closing) the points raised in the review? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Lou > >> > >> > >> On 6/8/2015 3:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > >>> [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.] > >>> > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > >>> draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > >>> routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > >>> review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as was th= e > >>> case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the > >>> Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, > >>> please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/Rtg= Dir > >>> > >>> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chairs and) > >>> Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along wit= h > >>> any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve > >>> them through discussion or by updating the draft. > >>> > >>> Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 > >>> Reviewer: Lou Berger > >>> Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comments -- > >>> sorry) WG LC End Date: unknown Intended Status: Standards track > >>> > >>> Summary: > >>> > >>> While I think the document is pretty decent for the scope of the > >>> work, I do have concerns about this document and recommend that > the > >>> WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the > authors. > >>> I'm also available as/if needed to discuss. > >>> > >>> Comments: > >>> > >>> I think the document shows significant good work and looks to be= a > >>> useful protocol, although I'm not overly familiar in this space. > >>> That said, I have a number of serious concerns about the documen= t, > >>> and its contents from a few of perspectives. These include basi= c > >>> protocol issues, underspecified details (which could lead to > >>> interoperability issues), and specification/editorial issues. I > >>> think the document / protocol can be modified to address the > issues > >>> I raise below. Of course, it is up to the WG, chairs, and ADs t= o > >>> decide which comments to address and which to ignore. > >>> I don't expect that all comments will result in changes. > >>> > >>> Major Issues: > >>> > >>> - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only = 8 > >>> bits. While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of > measure, > >>> which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for > >>> larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. -- > >>> We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain. > >>> > >>> - Version number is currently defined as a data item. This mean= s > a > >>> signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to > >>> discover what version is being used. This precludes basic > format > >>> changes to the protocol. Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signa= ls > >>> should be special cased to include version in their formats. > (And > >>> shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below). > >>> > >>> - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and > >>> 'discovery' states. These either need to be formally defined = or > >>> removed. BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) > and > >>> ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of th= e > >>> process. > >>> > >>> - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship > >>> with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined. For example: > >>> > >>> o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and i= n > a > >>> way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior > >>> (close TCP before ACK is received). > >>> > >>> o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP > >>> session be reused or must it be closed too? > >>> > >>> - There is no transaction model defined. For example, it's > >>> completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed a= t > a > >>> time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perha= ps > >>> there are no restrictions. This needs to be explicit. > >>> > >>> - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP? Retries > >>> aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being > used. > >>> > >>> - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really > >>> clear. It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: > reliable > >>> transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. > Of > >>> course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others > >>> should be clear. For example, in section 7.10, why would ther= e > be > >>> a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating = an > >>> error? > >>> > >>> - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there > really > >>> none? For example, how often might be appropriate to > issue/limit > >>> Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handl= e > >>> the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go > >>> down. > >>> > >>> - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation t= o > >>> define their own 'heuristics'. Some of these seem unnecessary > due > >>> to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the > protocol > >>> should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent > >>> behavior from implementations. > >>> > >>> - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental > >>> Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8). Both seem to support for > >>> optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric > values, > >>> why the latter uses UTF-8 strings. > >>> o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship betwe= en > >>> these? > >>> o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized? > >>> > >>> - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items. > The > >>> definition related to these basically says a resources is "An > >>> 8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of > >>> resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.". If I we= re > >>> implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce, > >>> update or use this information. I think there is some missing > >>> informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these > >>> formats. > >>> > >>> - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar > >>> problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear i= f > >>> there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link > quality > >>> that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is > just > >>> passed for as monitoring information. Either way, this needs = to > >>> be clarified. > >>> > >>> - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the > one > >>> documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are > exchanged, > >>> but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of > >>> credits relative to the data plane. > >>> > >>> - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.= , > >>> optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port. Generally > >>> allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperabilit= y > >>> issues. The document should pick one way and require it. > >>> > >>> - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering > requirements > >>> on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are = no > >>> ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within > >>> Signals. > >>> > >>> - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a > >>> signal isn't always clear. For example are 0/1/N copies of a > >>> particular Data Item required/allowed. Using something like > ABNF > >>> would really help formalize and clarify this. > >>> > >>> - The document doesn't clearly delineate from > informative/narrative > >>> text, normative / required processing procedures, and message > >>> formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it > just > >>> makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol. > >>> What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplica= te > >>> (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for > >>> omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/err= or > >>> processing). Specific examples are included above and below. > It > >>> would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior > is > >>> defined just once and in a consistent way. > >>> > >>> - The security consideration section is inadequate. This sectio= n > >>> should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user > >>> traffic. It should include an analysis of > risks/threats/possible > >>> exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol. rfc6952= , > >>> and the protocols it references can serve as examples. > >>> > >>> Minor Issues: > >>> > >>> - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits. This seems > >>> pretty small, particularly the data type field. Given this is= a > >>> control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field > >>> would provide better "future proofing". > >>> > >>> - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1). This seems= a > >>> bit excessive. I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself. > >>> > >>> - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to > have a > >>> generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mentio= n > >>> this here as this may come up again when clarifying the > >>> transaction model (as mentioned above.) > >>> > >>> - Section 2: Assumptions > >>> This section includes informative and normative text so is mor= e > >>> than just Assumptions. Personally, I'd remove all normative > text > >>> from the section. > >>> > >>> - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation. > >>> > >>> - Sections 8.10->8.17. Isn't add/drop indicator needed for > subnets > >>> in destination update signals? > >>> > >>> - The IANA Considerations sections must follow=E2=80=8B RFC2360. > >>> > >>> - New registries must include initial values, which are defined = in > >>> the document. (The document currently has many TBDs that shou= ld > >>> be replaced.) > >>> > >>> - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.: > >>> The registry should be established with registration policies of > >>> "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and > >>> =E2=80=9CSpecification Required" (for other documents). The desi= gnated > >>> expert is any current WG chair. > >>> > >>> Nits: > >>> > >>> - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" f= or > >>> what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in > >>> other protocols. It's probably too late to change this, but I > >>> think the introduction of unique terminology is counter > >>> productive. > >>> > >>> - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there > are > >>> words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look > at > >>> http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for > some > >>> suggestions. > >>> > >>> - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times. It > >>> really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the > wire. > >>> > >>> - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably > >>> octets) > >>> > >>> - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add > value, > >>> suggest dropping them. > >>> > >>> - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent? > >>> > >>> - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable leng= th > >>> field. > >>> > >>> - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable > length > >>> field. > >>> > >>> That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anything. Look > >>> forward to hearing response to the above (and how I got things > >>> hopelessly wrong ;-) > >>> > >>> Lou > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains > > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary > > and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua= l > > or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original > > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the > > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email > > in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or > > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this emai= l > > in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. > > _____________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > manet mailing list > > manet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > > > --089e015374ac8b4755051a774427 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Given the number of changes due to the number of comments I = think a bullet point summary from the editors (or an email per major issue)= about what the changes were and how the issues were fixed would be appropr= iate.

Justin Dean


On Tue, Jul 7, 2015, 11:38 = AM=C2=A0Rick Taylor <r= ick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
Lou,

I agree with Stan.=C2=A0 If you want to check if your points have been
addressed, and perhaps raise anything outstanding as a new thread that
would be helpful.

Thanks,

Rick

On 07/07/15 13:48, Ratliff, Stanley wrote:
> Lou,
>
> I think that would be a good idea - your review was what prompted most= (if not all) of the changes from -14 to -15.
>
> Regards,
> Stan
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2015 8:04 AM
>> To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org
>> Cc: manet@ietf= .org
>> Subject: Re: [RTG-DIR] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
>>
>> [Dropping=C2=A0 routing directorate as document is back with WG.]<= br> >>
>> Authors,
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Now that -15 is out, what are your thoughts on= continuing the discussion
>> on (and closing) the points raised in the review?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lou
>>
>>
>> On 6/8/2015 3:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
>>> [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.]
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for t= his
>>> draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or<= br> >>> routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and= IESG
>>> review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as= was the
>>> case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance= to the
>>> Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorat= e,
>>> please see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.too= ls.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir
>>>
>>> Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chai= rs and)
>>> Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them al= ong with
>>> any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to r= esolve
>>> them through discussion or by updating the draft.
>>>
>>> Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
>>> Reviewer: Lou Berger
>>> Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comm= ents --
>>> sorry) WG LC End Date: unknown Intended Status: Standards trac= k
>>>
>>> Summary:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 While I think the document is pretty decen= t for the scope of the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 work, I do have concerns about this docume= nt and recommend that the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues= further with the authors.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm also available as/if needed to dis= cuss.
>>>
>>> Comments:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think the document shows significant goo= d work and looks to be a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 useful protocol, although I'm not over= ly familiar in this space.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 That said, I have a number of serious conc= erns about the document,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and its contents from a few of perspective= s.=C2=A0 These include basic
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol issues, underspecified details=C2= =A0 (which could lead to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 interoperability issues), and specificatio= n/editorial issues. I
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 think the document / protocol can be modif= ied to address the issues
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I raise below.=C2=A0 Of course, it is up t= o the WG, chairs, and ADs to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 decide which comments to address and which= to=C2=A0 ignore.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't expect that all comments will = result in changes.
>>>
>>> Major Issues:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The length field of the generic data ite= m (i.e., TLV) is only 8
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bits.=C2=A0 While 255 bytes (assumi= ng that this is the unit of measure,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which BTW isn't specified) is b= ig enough today, allowing for
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 larger will greatly simplify things= when 255 isn't enough. --
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We've run into this in RSVP and= it's a real pain.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Version number is currently defined as a= data item.=C2=A0 This means a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signal (i.e., message) needs to be = potentially fully parsed to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discover what version is being used= .=C2=A0 This precludes basic format
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 changes to the protocol.=C2=A0 Perh= aps the Discovery and Init Signals
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be special cased to include = version in their formats.=C2=A0 (And
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 shorten version to 8 bits from 32, = as mentioned below).
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document references, but does not de= fine, 'in-session' and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'discovery' states.=C2=A0 T= hese either need to be formally defined or
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 removed.=C2=A0 BTW we had exactly t= he same issue with LMP (RFC4204) and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) a= t a pretty late stage of the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - TCP session management is not defined, n= or is the relationship
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with TCP and DLEP sessions fully de= fined.=C2=A0 For example:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o Closing the TCP session is only m= entioned in one place and in a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 way that is inconsistent wit= h the expected protocol behavior
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (close TCP before ACK is rec= eived).
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o What happens when a DLEP session = is terminated, can the TCP
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 session be reused or must it= be closed too?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There is no transaction model defined.= =C2=A0 For example, it's
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 completely unclear if only one unac= knowledged Signal allowed at a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 time, or perhaps just one per signa= l type is allowed, or perhaps
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there are no restrictions.=C2=A0 Th= is needs to be explicit.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - What is the purpose of retries and timeo= uts over TCP?=C2=A0 Retries
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 aren't needed over TCPs and it&= #39;s unclear whey they are being used.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The higher level implications of ACKs, o= ver TCP, isn't really
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clear.=C2=A0 It seems ACKs are defi= ned for multiple purposes: reliable
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport, transaction acknowledgme= nt and transaction results. Of
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 course the first isn't needed, = and implications of the others
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be clear.=C2=A0 For example,= in section 7.10, why would there be
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a retry when receiving a Destinatio= n Up ACK signal indicating an
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 error?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There is no discussion on scaling consid= erations. Are there really
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 none?=C2=A0 For example, how often = might be appropriate to issue/limit
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Peer Updates based to changes in li= nk quality, or how to handle
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the case where a large number (all = or most) of destinations go
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 down.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There are 13 places where the protocol a= llows implementation to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 define their own 'heuristics= 9;.=C2=A0 Some of these seem unnecessary due
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the TCP point raised above, but = any that remain in the protocol
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be fully specified to ensure= predictable/consistent
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 behavior from implementations.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Data Items are defined for "Extensi= ons" and "Experimental
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Definition" (Sections 8.7 and = 8.8).=C2=A0 Both seem to support for
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional mechanisms, but the former= uses assigned numeric values,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.<= br> >>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o What, if any, is the intended dis= tinction/relationship between
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 these?
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o How does an "Experimental De= finition" become standardized?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Reso= urces" related Data Items.=C2=A0 The
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition related to these basical= ly says a resources is "An
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, re= presenting the amount of
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 resources allocated to receiving|tr= ansmitting data.".=C2=A0 If I were
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementing this protocol, I'd= have no idea how to produce,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 update or use this information.=C2= =A0 I think there is some missing
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 informative and normative (RFC 2119= ) text related to these
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 formats.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Qu= ality) have a similar
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 problem of being under described, i= n particular it's unclear if
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there's a meaningful, non-propr= ietary definition for link quality
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that an implementation is to act on= or if the passed value is just
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 passed for as monitoring informatio= n.=C2=A0 Either way, this needs to
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be clarified.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowi= ng scheme analogous to the one
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documented in [RFC5578]". It d= escribes how credits are exchanged,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 but it provides zero definition on = the implications or use of
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 credits relative to the data plane.=
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Multiple ways to implement the same func= tion are allowed, e.g.,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional presence of Status, Interv= al and TCP port.=C2=A0 Generally
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allowing such complicates testing a= nd leads to interoperability
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 issues.=C2=A0 The document should p= ick one way and require it.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document doesn't state if there = are any ordering requirements
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 on data items. It should be explici= t on this, e.g., there are no
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ordering requirements on the placem= ent of Data Items within
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Signals.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The required and optional data items tha= t are permitted on a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signal isn't always clear.=C2= =A0 For example are 0/1/N copies of a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 particular Data Item required/allow= ed.=C2=A0 Using something like ABNF
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would really help formalize and cla= rify this.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document doesn't clearly delinea= te from informative/narrative
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 text, normative / required processi= ng procedures, and message
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 formats. This by itself is not nece= ssarily a major issue, it just
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes it harder to (write,) review = and implement the protocol.
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What is a major issue is that this = approach allows for duplicate
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (and sometimes contradictory) norma= tive procedures and for
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 omissions in procedures (particular= ly related to exception/error
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 processing).=C2=A0 Specific example= s are included above and below.=C2=A0 It
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be best to ensure that each r= equired processing behavior is
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined just once and in a consiste= nt way.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The security consideration section is in= adequate.=C2=A0 This section
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should address the security of the = DLEP protocol, not user
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic.=C2=A0 It should include an= analysis of risks/threats/possible
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploits and how these are mitigate= d by the protocol.=C2=A0 rfc6952,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the protocols it references can= serve as examples.
>>>
>>> Minor Issues:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The data and signal type fields are both= 8 bits.=C2=A0 This seems
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pretty small, particularly the data= type field.=C2=A0 Given this is a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 control protocol, I think a larger = (at least data type) field
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would provide better "future p= roofing".
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (sec= tion 8.1).=C2=A0 This seems a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bit excessive.=C2=A0 I'd opt fo= r max of 8 bits here myself.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - It's probably too late, but it proba= bly would be cleaner to have a
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 generic ack signal rather than a pe= r signal type ack. I mention
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this here as this may come up again= when clarifying the
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction model (as mentioned abo= ve.)
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 2: Assumptions
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This section includes informative a= nd normative text so is more
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 than just Assumptions.=C2=A0 Person= ally, I'd remove all normative text
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 from the section.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There are no specific rules related to U= DP header formation.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Sections 8.10->8.17.=C2=A0 Isn't = add/drop indicator needed for subnets
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in destination update signals?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The IANA Considerations sections must fo= llow=E2=80=8B RFC2360.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - New registries must include initial valu= es, which are defined in
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the document.=C2=A0 (The document c= urrently has many TBDs that should
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be replaced.)
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - New registries need an allocation policy= , e.g.:
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The registry should be established with re= gistration policies of
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Standards Action" (for Standard= s Track documents) and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CSpecification Required" (for= other documents). The designated
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 expert is any current <fill-in> WG c= hair.
>>>
>>> Nits:
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document introduces the terms "= signals" and "data items" for
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 what is commonly called "messa= ges" and "TLVs" (or objects) in
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 other protocols.=C2=A0 It's pro= bably too late to change this, but I
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 think the introduction of unique te= rminology is counter
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 productive.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is = a bit rough, and there are
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 words in all caps that are not defi= ned in RFC2119. Take a look at
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http= ://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 suggestions.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Internal socket operation is mentioned a= couple of times.=C2=A0 It
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 really shouldn't be, the spec s= hould define behavior on the wire.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The Length fields are missing unit of me= asure (presumably
>>> octets)
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The Mnemonics are used basically once an= d don't really add value,
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 suggest dropping them.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - How/when is the "Unknown Signal&quo= t; Status Code sent?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 8.7: Extension List should be sh= own as a variable length
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be s= hown as a variable length
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field.
>>>
>>> That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anythi= ng.=C2=A0 Look
>>> forward to hearing response to the above (and how I got things=
>>> hopelessly wrong ;-)
>>>
>>> Lou
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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--089e015374ac8b4755051a774427-- From nobody Fri Jul 10 07:42:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 474BF1B2C8B for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 07:42:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.208 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.208 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nMqJ9TOdyfcC for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 07:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ll.mit.edu (MX1.LL.MIT.EDU [129.55.12.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F4AB1B2C30 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 07:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LLE2K10-HUB01.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K10-HUB01.mitll.ad.local) by mx1.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTP id t6AEgFT2031295 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:42:17 -0400 From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" To: "manet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: credit windowing questions Thread-Index: AQHQux6dXMxiKXTuSUWy5f9iSD6BUw== Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:42:15 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.25.59.174] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3519369734_41360190" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151, 1.0.33, 0.0.0000 definitions=2015-07-10_07:2015-07-10,2015-07-10,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1506180000 definitions=main-1507100216 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] credit windowing questions X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:42:20 -0000 --B_3519369734_41360190 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3519369734_41394588" --B_3519369734_41394588 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I have a few questions on the credit windowing extension in DLEP 15: Exactly which data plane octets count against the credit window? Since destinations are MAC addresses, I assume we are counting at the MAC layer. So MAC payload octets should surely count, but what about MAC headers? MAC framing? Are multicast destinations handled any differently than unicast? A Destination Update message can contain both Credit Window Status and Credit Grant data items. In that case, does the window value in the Credit Window Status already reflect the Credit Grant increment, or should the recipient add the window value + credit increment to get the real new credit window? When a peer receives a Credit Window Status, if it has a different value for the other side's receive window than what is in the Credit Window Status, should it update its value to be the one in the Credit Window Status? It seems like this should be a MUST. David --B_3519369734_41394588 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I have a few questions o= n the credit windowing extension in DLEP 15:

Exactl= y which data plane octets count against the credit window?  Since
=
destinations are MAC addresses, I assume we are counting at the MAC
layer.  So MAC payload octets should surely count, but what abou= t MAC
headers?  MAC framing?

Are mul= ticast destinations handled any differently than unicast?

A Destination Update message can contain both Credit Window Status an= d
Credit Grant data items.  In that case, does the window val= ue in the Credit
Window Status already reflect the Credit Grant in= crement, or should the
recipient add the window value + credit inc= rement to get the real new
credit window?

When a peer receives a Credit Window Status, if it has a different
value for the other side's receive window than what is in the Credit
=
Window Status, should it update its value to be the one in the Credit
Window Status?  It seems like this should be a MUST.

David

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Fri, 10 Jul 2015 10:55:08 -0400 From: "Ratliff, Stanley" To: "manet@ietf.org" , "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" Thread-Topic: DLEP 15 Thread-Index: AQHQuMoM57frVf1h0EW5yP31ZKmhQJ3UthDggAAY83A= Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:55:07 +0000 Message-ID: <8f772f884b3142778323cbef3326498c@VAUSDITCHM3.idirect.net> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FCD77@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FCEAA@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.250.250.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [manet] FW: DLEP 15 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:55:34 -0000 FYI, with answers. = Regards, Stan > -----Original Message----- > From: Ratliff, Stanley > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 9:39 AM > To: 'Rick Taylor'; Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL > Subject: RE: DLEP 15 > = > David, > = > We can handle this either off-list or on it. Your choice. > = > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com] > > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 8:51 AM > > To: Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL; Ratliff, Stanley > > Subject: Re: DLEP 15 > > > > Hi David, > > > > The list is probably the best place for some of these questions, but > > Stan is the font of all knowledge about Credit Windowing, so I'll let h= im > answer. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Rick > > > > On 10/07/15 13:46, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL wrote: > > > Thanks, Rick. > > > > > > I have some less trivial comments, almost all on the credit > > > windowing extension. Should I send these to the list? I am really > > > not trying to be difficult or opinionated; I actually need to > > > implement this and I don't know how to interpret the draft on these > points: > > > > > > Exactly which data plane octets count against the credit window? > > > Since destinations are MAC addresses, I assume we are counting at > > > the MAC layer. So MAC payload octets should surely count, but what > about > > > MAC headers? MAC framing? > = > The intent is to count all octets of the frame at Layer 2. So yes, MAC he= aders > and framing bytes would be included. > = > > > > > > Are multicast destinations handled any differently than unicast? > = > No, they should be handled the same. > = > > > > > > A Destination Update message can contain both Credit Window Status > > > and Credit Grant data items. In that case, does the window value in > > > the Credit Window Status already reflect the Credit Grant increment, > > > or should the recipient add the window value + credit increment to > > > get the real new credit window? > = > Uhhh, I don't think so. Seems to me that the root of the question here is > whether the peer would have added in the grant before creating the > window status or not. So I would think the correct processing flow would = be > to add the credit increment to your existing, running counter, then compa= re > to the value in window status. > = > > > > > > When a peer receives a Credit Window Status, if it has a different > > > value for the other side's receive window than what is in the Credit > > > Window Status, should it update its value to be the one in the > > > Credit Window Status? It seems like this should be a MUST. > = > Here's the corresponding verbiage (with all of the PPPoE-isms, > unfortunately) from RFC 5578: > = > "During normal operation, nodes may disagree about the number of > credits. Operational credit mismatches would occur due to packets in > transit on the wire. Much larger credit mismatches can occur if > there are transmission errors. To correct these larger errors, the > BCN fields of the PADG and PADC packets and in-band credit grants > from a peer can be used by the receiving node to reset the credit > values of its peer." > = > Not really a MUST, but it's certainly a MAY. We can add the DLEP-ized ver= sion > of this text. > = > Regards, > Stan > = > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > David > > > > > > > > > On 7/10/15, 8:28 AM, "Rick Taylor" > > wrote: > > > > > >> Thanks David, > > >> > > >> I'll get them included in the draft for the next release. > > >> > > >> Rick > > >> > > >> On 07/07/15 18:28, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL wrote: > > >>> Here are a few nits: > > >>> > > >>> decriment -> decrement > > >>> Recive -> Receive > > >>> remove (#msg_dest_up) in 10.2.1 > > >>> > > >>> From: David Wiggins > >>> > > > >>> Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 11:31 AM > > >>> To: "Ratliff, Stanley" > >>> >, Rick Taylor > > >>> > >>> > > > >>> Subject: DLEP 15 > > >>> > > >>> Hi Stan, Rick, > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for your work on the new draft. It is much improved. I > > >>> have a few minor comments; should I send them to the manet list, > > >>> or do you want to work through Lou's review first? I don't want > > >>> to sidetrack the process=A9 > > >>> > > >>> David > > >>> > > >> _____________________________________________________ This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. _____________________________________________________ From nobody Fri Jul 10 09:46:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C43491B29FA for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Et3ubxufZCJ for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:46:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ll.mit.edu (MX1.LL.MIT.EDU [129.55.12.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B30201B29E3 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 09:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LLE2K10-HUB01.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K10-HUB01.mitll.ad.local) by mx1.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTP id t6AGkX3K026315; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 12:46:33 -0400 From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" To: "Ratliff, Stanley" , "manet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: credit windowing questions (was Re: DLEP 15) Thread-Index: AQHQuy/6UdQR0+NOFkmRpFCDH0BxQA== Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:46:33 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.25.59.174] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3519377192_41802017" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151, 1.0.33, 0.0.0000 definitions=2015-07-10_07:2015-07-10,2015-07-10,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1506180000 definitions=main-1507100239 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] credit windowing questions (was Re: DLEP 15) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 16:46:37 -0000 --B_3519377192_41802017 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Heavily trimmed... On 7/10/15, 10:55 AM, "Ratliff, Stanley" wrote: >>> On 10/07/15 13:46, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL wrote: >>> > A Destination Update message can contain both Credit Window Status >> > > and Credit Grant data items. In that case, does the window value in >> > > the Credit Window Status already reflect the Credit Grant increment, >> > > or should the recipient add the window value + credit increment to >> > > get the real new credit window? >> >> Uhhh, I don't think so. Seems to me that the root of the question here >>is >> whether the peer would have added in the grant before creating the >> window status or not. So I would think the correct processing flow >>would be >> to add the credit increment to your existing, running counter, then >>compare >> to the value in window status. So let's say the modem sends a destination update to the router containing a MRW value in the window status, and a Credit Grant value CG. Is this what the router should do? 1. new MRW = CG + router's locally maintained MRW 2. If new MRW != MRW from the window status new MRW = MRW from the window status 3. router's locally maintained MRW = new MRW If that's right, then it can be simplified to just: 1. router's locally maintained MRW = MRW from the window status This eliminates the need for CG, so why even send it? >> >> > > >> > > When a peer receives a Credit Window Status, if it has a different >> > > value for the other side's receive window than what is in the Credit >> > > Window Status, should it update its value to be the one in the >> > > Credit Window Status? It seems like this should be a MUST. >> >> Here's the corresponding verbiage (with all of the PPPoE-isms, >> unfortunately) from RFC 5578: >> >> "During normal operation, nodes may disagree about the number of >> credits. Operational credit mismatches would occur due to packets in >> transit on the wire. Much larger credit mismatches can occur if >> there are transmission errors. To correct these larger errors, the >> BCN fields of the PADG and PADC packets and in-band credit grants >> from a peer can be used by the receiving node to reset the credit >> values of its peer." >> >> Not really a MUST, but it's certainly a MAY. We can add the DLEP-ized >>version >> of this text. Yes, that would be good. If you make it a MUST, then you have two options for granting credits: a solicited method via credit request/grant, and an unsolicited method whereby the peer can just send you more credits whenever it wants via the window status. If you don't make it a MUST, then the unsolicited method can't be relied on because you don't know if the receiver is going to accept new credits this way. I think having both options would be useful. 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Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:49:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c-TyXmHWg3yg for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x230.google.com (mail-wg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39F9D1B2D0A for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgov12 with SMTP id v12so74322681wgo.1 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:49:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=tB80qUDUNWc8STDcMPRO9IdRoxLLSRDEjsK4ygABGOU=; b=s8MUCJgakbVf0SjYhwuVL7+U4T1rOt2d12ngvMfNLvcyg7ogrWAyqjG86RoTls47wd XvAKCM0GzhkahD/uMlr/xvyejKtJwWQD3fNUOEUc8xZ3pVfl4HJe+TWwG9r/wq5KaSsp DJStyI87KpADqhtMlNdE3QX8t+NNKlEgqN1aXreLJFqc7PK6GnEk6LSCYse7NZAg1C7X W1GSMzH9yLTaweU5F0RvJijAkwmDuXLg3L85exK1iJoNq3xj3qVA8ksByU7XwtVo/mYD l9wrItLHfegsJWaP/2l2wo5OwoJjI3VQlaE/OaI9P4zAHJXVGECMEaga7LibCHcHcJ0d EFyg== X-Received: by 10.180.88.99 with SMTP id bf3mr1565992wib.75.1436564989035; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:49:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Jul 2015 14:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 23:49:19 +0200 Message-ID: To: MANET IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP interop testing in Prague? X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2015 21:49:51 -0000 Hi, what do you think about a DLEP interop test in Prague? If interested I could bring to WLAN based nodes with DLEP-radio software on them (and normal olsrd2 with DAT metric and DLEP support) with me and we could do some testing with it. What do you think? Henning Rogge From nobody Mon Jul 13 07:51:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2BA1B2B56 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 07:51:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n4ehSxaIQ0Mi for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 07:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7109E1B2B5F for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 07:50:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkbp125 with SMTP id p125so255571675qkb.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 07:50:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=t3RPYhUBuJMdADPuGKPEKsxbkvA4QN2xX7r/RPlFhMc=; b=SnE4HxjBixiK8LB4oMXmb0tFdYjs43JckG20ooNchNxprOT6iGQwuvSOtN/DSlng86 AHHyx5E0FuH97WkZ35ZPWLho0ddTgpfbOmpJEVuqe4/AEWuFUx2Ofs9WwzDN8kIXkPEw 6zqWMhHlyj//xCFCEzCQZBf1FeiGPcRwp2j7EoS2xsjBcwDpqmsQ9v0pZs8M4TudsV2/ fTzfJPCBHcOhvwVTKoAP55JZq039hqOmj4dZTgSeiQs17ib61OasVVpBmoFXqrqWWAEu ZntvRzV3mMJSnCXdPOjYTLvAB0DYwI4GI0B52iqmktVjl2uu60TWN7j6qDmU2nLyV0oA URCg== X-Received: by 10.55.17.26 with SMTP id b26mr53070398qkh.93.1436799056772; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 07:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f11sm187104qki.1.2015.07.13.07.50.56 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 07:50:56 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:50:55 -0400 To: manet@ietf.org Message-Id: <840EEADE-06CD-47DF-A0F8-CA266A36B6FD@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: threaded feedback coming X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:51:04 -0000 All, I have been reading DLEP-15. I have some initial feedback coming in a few minutes. More feedback is likely to come later on. I am going to try to thread different topical areas *separately* by using different SUBJECT lines in email. I imagine it would help everyone if we could try to keep each thread separate. Certainly it would help me if we could try to keep each topical thread separate. Yours, Ran Atkinson From nobody Mon Jul 13 08:49:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C371B2BED for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:49:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eWpV208U-Vlj for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:49:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0762A1B2BD5 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcl188 with SMTP id l188so73686396qkc.1 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:49:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=iIljr8QL1F0dNY8WhkN6LHIFyJPqyJs5bTD9nB1782I=; b=BZrWjAQXcMeM1bsU5EmVbCtl//L/uUfZ/sr7vBzru2dr3BWx5pxZQ2rsJP2tg1keJ6 mO4tIhlNviZKaCuS60ifIN6D05sWObKltEzMcJrKkUnJaL46hhbUvpU30MxfIeiqubp8 Cn47RzVjwfcBqZcbzN7Qucy/5tmnPBwOxjqEe+lnLv9i6S9eX0+UHyBH78bYBHo7Edxb zUHjrn4z7mXxF6CKrDA0SpJhQam4el4Z4XixLPN8lIyhh7YMALLE2XPpF/B4IIxQbagT KfdRkWouCC4en5IB7ipbb0M6TcAv7krOR4390WMZtkSxymw5EXwoXgCWEguFaP4C8w+G AKxQ== X-Received: by 10.55.18.6 with SMTP id c6mr20446523qkh.96.1436802590228; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n107sm11151413qgn.13.2015.07.13.08.49.49 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 08:49:49 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:49:48 -0400 To: manet@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:49:52 -0000 All, While I find the security-related discussion in DLEP-15 to be an improvement, I still really don=E2=80=99t think it is sufficient for a modern IETF standards-track protocol. In fact, I think that any IETF Security Area review (which is required by the IESG) also will say that the current text is not sufficient. 1) Security implementation needs to be mandatory The biggest single security issue with DLEP-15 is that=20 the DLEP-15 specification =E2=80=9Cassumes=E2=80=9D TLS will be used,=20 which simply is not enough. The IETF Security Area reviewer is almost certainly going to object to the current text, so I would like to see it get fixed in DLEP-16 before the draft even goes to the IETF Security Area. Instead, the DLEP-15 specification should have language requiring all DLEP implementations to support TLS. I have put together some draft candidate text for this below in a specially marked part of this note.=20 Note well that requiring DLEP implementations to support TLS is a separate question from the operational decision whether to use TLS in a particular deployment. Traditionally, the IETF mandates implementation of security, but only provides advice on whether security is enabled in a particular operational deployment. The recommended language below is consistent with that traditional practice. In Section 2, page 10, top paragraph, I recommend that the authors replace the existing text with this: =E2=80=9CDLEP implementations are required to implement Transport Layer Security (TLS) [RFC5246] for=20 TCP sessions and Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) [RFC6347] for UDP sessions.=20 Operational use of TLS and DTLS with DLEP is RECOMMENDED to reduce security risks." In Section 11, I recommend replacing the paragraph that begins=20 with =E2=80=9CThe protocol itself=E2=80=9D with the following 3 = paragraphs (and adding the various BCP/RFC references to the REFERENCES section of the DLEP specification): =E2=80=9CDLEP implementations are required to implement Transport Layer Security (TLS) [RFC5246] for=20 TCP sessions and Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS) [RFC6347] for UDP sessions. DLEP TLS and DTLS implementations MUST also implement and comply with=20 [BCP195], MUST implement and comply with the updates=20 in [RFC5746, RFC6176, RFC7465, RFC7505, RFC7505,=20 and RFC7568], and MUST NOT support cipher-suites=20 with less than 128-bits of effective key length=20 (NB: [BCP195] notes that the nominal key length=20 is not equal to effective key length in all cases.) For interoperability with other DLEP implementations when TLS and DTLS are in operational use, a mandatory to implement cipher suite needs to be specified. Accordingly, DLEP implementations of TLS and DTLS MUST implement at least the TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384=E2=80= =9D cipher suite. [BCP195, RFC5116] This cipher suite is available at present in open-source (D)TLS implementations (e.g. OpenSSL), so this cipher-suite is readily available to implementers. As of the date this document was written, this cipher suite also is reasonably strong, so is expected to have a reasonably long useful lifetime. Operational use of TLS and DTLS with DLEP is RECOMMENDED to reduce operational security risks, such as those=20 described at the beginning of this Section." 2) Citation Recommendation To reduce the need to update the DLEP specification each time that TLS specifications are updated, I recommend specifying the TLS BCP guidance via the BCP reference,=20 which is: [BCP195] =E2=80=9CRecommendations for Secure Use of Transport Layer Security (TLS) and Datagram Transport Layer Security (DTLS)=E2=80=9D, Y. Sheffer et alia. Yours, Ran Atkinson From nobody Mon Jul 13 09:46:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3EE11A21AB for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:46:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ulBKMzmXabx4 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21EB11A21A9 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:45:34 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: RJ Atkinson , "manet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations Thread-Index: AQHQvYOLA0Cz4XDB202BpHdIubNQmQ== Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:45:32 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FF265@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:46:04 -0000 Thank you Ran,=0A= =0A= That looks like very helpful text that would be easy to include.=0A= =0A= The main reason we have not looked hard at the security aspects of DLEP =0A= is that although it uses multi-hop layer-3 protocols (UDP/TCP) DLEP =0A= itself is distinctly link-local and most frequently routers and modems =0A= will be physically adjacent.=0A= =0A= However, you are right to point out that this is an assumption on our =0A= part, and passing IESG review is critical, hence TLS RECOMMENDED seems =0A= reasonable.=0A= =0A= I don't agree that DTLS for UDP should be 'RECOMMENDED', I prefer 'MAY =0A= use'. The reason being that UDP is used for multicast discovery (and =0A= I'm not sure how effective DTLS is for multicast without pre-placed =0A= keys). The discovery packets leak no private information and simply =0A= point to a TCP endpoint that can be sufficiently secured.=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= =0A= =0A= On 13/07/15 16:49, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A= > All,=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > While I find the security-related discussion in DLEP-15=0A= > to be an improvement, I still really don=92t think it is=0A= > sufficient for a modern IETF standards-track protocol.=0A= > In fact, I think that any IETF Security Area review=0A= > (which is required by the IESG) also will say that the=0A= > current text is not sufficient.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > 1) Security implementation needs to be mandatory=0A= >=0A= > The biggest single security issue with DLEP-15 is that=0A= > the DLEP-15 specification =93assumes=94 TLS will be used,=0A= > which simply is not enough. The IETF Security Area=0A= > reviewer is almost certainly going to object to the=0A= > current text, so I would like to see it get fixed in=0A= > DLEP-16 before the draft even goes to the IETF Security=0A= > Area.=0A= >=0A= > Instead, the DLEP-15 specification should have language=0A= > requiring all DLEP implementations to support TLS. I=0A= > have put together some draft candidate text for this below=0A= > in a specially marked part of this note.=0A= >=0A= > Note well that requiring DLEP implementations to support=0A= > TLS is a separate question from the operational decision=0A= > whether to use TLS in a particular deployment. Traditionally,=0A= > the IETF mandates implementation of security, but only=0A= > provides advice on whether security is enabled in a=0A= > particular operational deployment. The recommended=0A= > language below is consistent with that traditional practice.=0A= >=0A= > In Section 2, page 10, top paragraph, I recommend that=0A= > the authors replace the existing text with this:=0A= >=0A= > =93DLEP implementations are required to implement=0A= > Transport Layer Security (TLS) [RFC5246] for=0A= > TCP sessions and Datagram Transport Layer Security=0A= > (DTLS) [RFC6347] for UDP sessions.=0A= >=0A= > Operational use of TLS and DTLS with DLEP is=0A= > RECOMMENDED to reduce security risks."=0A= >=0A= > In Section 11, I recommend replacing the paragraph that begins=0A= > with =93The protocol itself=94 with the following 3 paragraphs=0A= > (and adding the various BCP/RFC references to the REFERENCES=0A= > section of the DLEP specification):=0A= >=0A= > =93DLEP implementations are required to implement=0A= > Transport Layer Security (TLS) [RFC5246] for=0A= > TCP sessions and Datagram Transport Layer Security=0A= > (DTLS) [RFC6347] for UDP sessions. DLEP TLS and DTLS=0A= > implementations MUST also implement and comply with=0A= > [BCP195], MUST implement and comply with the updates=0A= > in [RFC5746, RFC6176, RFC7465, RFC7505, RFC7505,=0A= > and RFC7568], and MUST NOT support cipher-suites=0A= > with less than 128-bits of effective key length=0A= > (NB: [BCP195] notes that the nominal key length=0A= > is not equal to effective key length in all cases.)=0A= >=0A= > For interoperability with other DLEP implementations=0A= > when TLS and DTLS are in operational use, a mandatory=0A= > to implement cipher suite needs to be specified.=0A= > Accordingly, DLEP implementations of TLS and DTLS MUST=0A= > implement at least the TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384=94= =0A= > cipher suite. [BCP195, RFC5116] This cipher suite is=0A= > available at present in open-source (D)TLS implementations=0A= > (e.g. OpenSSL), so this cipher-suite is readily available=0A= > to implementers. As of the date this document was written,=0A= > this cipher suite also is reasonably strong, so is=0A= > expected to have a reasonably long useful lifetime.=0A= >=0A= > Operational use of TLS and DTLS with DLEP is RECOMMENDED=0A= > to reduce operational security risks, such as those=0A= > described at the beginning of this Section."=0A= >=0A= > 2) Citation Recommendation=0A= >=0A= > To reduce the need to update the DLEP specification each=0A= > time that TLS specifications are updated, I recommend=0A= > specifying the TLS BCP guidance via the BCP reference,=0A= > which is:=0A= >=0A= > [BCP195] =93Recommendations for Secure Use of Transport=0A= > Layer Security (TLS) and Datagram Transport=0A= > Layer Security (DTLS)=94, Y. Sheffer et alia.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > Yours,=0A= >=0A= > Ran Atkinson=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > manet mailing list=0A= > manet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= >=0A= =0A= From nobody Mon Jul 13 09:55:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7229D1A3BA4 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ngxSp3akr6_H for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com (mail-qk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5E081A1B7F for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcl188 with SMTP id l188so75059251qkc.1 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=SMweJ8DX9OSGheYomfCi+FhJGHJkOz71rlECHW7eR5c=; b=yYdKTj/9GZ4Ix/HSMz+ei0eSoIDIxvb+ktHPM73xa+ygjPZkQrsfBmSh6bu01ec1Tc /fiF9Gxgg66Lik4iSCLsgsMyKzJXv/0gEbCWDiobwhnACRgOh1bZl38m9xe26wX8BLi8 xW6eKKpNU0qviRGNi+W13y5ns3gMs8k/pjUpTsf8rm38M/XSt2DpM/94nurm9D0Op6La yid4yj25giZrVGS5w3dl4WXx+Gixo5ml1tjOMIANMdBJFpkwbu5jrznT5r0eW7dZpzK5 4JFPBq5X4F3gyufWAr4kx69ZhjjP2B4tL7vH6e3GlCFbx0t/TaupdhMHiRvVyJcU4mK6 mCRA== X-Received: by 10.140.21.81 with SMTP id 75mr54046599qgk.86.1436806531122; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 99sm8976087qku.20.2015.07.13.09.55.30 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:55:29 -0400 To: manet@ietf.org Message-Id: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: IANA Considerations (mechanics) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:55:33 -0000 All, This note is focused on the mechanics of the IANA Considerations section, rather than about WG choices about the actual contents of the to-be-created DLEP IANA registries. 1) Basic contents for =E2=80=9CIANA Considerations=E2=80=9D The basic task is to specify each new registry, specify allocation policies, and specify initial values arising from this document (if any). All of Section 12 needs to comply with RFC-5226 and should cite RFC-5226 when using reserved phrases or reserved words defined within RFC-5226. At present, I do not believe that DLEP-15 is fully compliant with RFC-5226. A) Each new registry deserves its own sub-section. Each new registry needs to have the registry name specified. It is helpful (and I believe also customary)=20 to include the protocol as the first term of the formal=20 name of the registry to help users of the IANA registry find the then-current assigned values. This also makes crystal clear that a given registry is associated with DLEP rather than some other protocol. Example edit: "12.3 DLEP Signal Type and Message Type Registry=E2=80=9D DLEP Signals and DLEP Messages share a common option Type number space. This registry defines all of the DLEP Signal Type and DLEP Message Type numbers." B) Initial values allocated by this document need to be specified within each newly created=20 IANA registry sub-section. It is not kind to make the IANA folks hunt all over a document to find initial registry values. Example edit for Section 12.3: (Insert/copy current Table 1 into Section 12.3.) C) Each new registry needs to have its IANA allocation policies defined, using the proper language from RFC-5226. Creativity in specifying an allocation policy=20 is at least strongly discouraged and might be disallowed.=20 Example edit for Section 12.3 (for some value N; I=E2=80=99d like to discuss values for N separately from this note which is purely about the structure and contents of the IANA Considerations): Values 1-16 are defined elsewhere in this document. Values 17-N are to be allocated under the IANA=20 =E2=80=9CSpecification Required=E2=80=9D allocation policy from=20= Section 4.1 of [RFC5226], while Values N-65534 are=20 reserved for =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D as defined by Section = 4.1=20 of RFC5226.=E2=80=9D I believe that the same kind of edits are needed *throughout* Section 12 =E2=80=9CIANA Considerations=E2=80=9D. 2) In Section 8.0, page 20, the existing Table-1 is labelled =E2=80=9CThe core DLEP signals and messages are=E2=80=9D but actually contains various values that are NOT actually =E2=80=9Ccore DLEP signals and messages=E2=80=9D. =20 Requested Action: Edit this instance of Table 1 to remove the rows corresponding to any Type Code value that is NOT considered =E2=80=9Ccore DLEP=E2=80=9D. 3) In Section 9.0, pages 32 & 33, the existing Table-2 is labelled =E2=80=9CThe core DLEP data items are=E2=80=9D but the table=20= actually contains various values that are NOT actually =E2=80=9Ccore DLEP data items=E2=80=9D. Requested Action: Edit this instance of Table 2 to remove the rows corresponding to any Type Code value that is NOT considered =E2=80=9Ccore DLEP=E2=80=9D. I would suggest copying the = current Table 2 into Section 12.4 prior to making the edit here in Section 9. 4) In Section 9.1, page 35, please copy Table 3 into Section 12.5. 5) Please add normative citation of [RFC5226]. Yours, Ran Atkinson From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:06:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C86D71B2C3C for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:06:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W6yV8IKu0GyU for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FF761B2C3B for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdv3 with SMTP id v3so63243891qkd.3 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:06:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=4+Hrkc12yZEqEs37R85/24Xk6y8EdZoJ/t9woLgizZ4=; b=zh5W/lvyB8yo/rzyTR0VZdjWS+jCOfsR6KjoZDX8WkkJmaq5dRmyeEe0LLqc2z5FFD WOA20D/o7b/WLNamlVB/oZh2yNJIuIQ55zeibl9mOun4H1w81PMOptgXuoXH1KrJ6Vc5 q33z//nTYfxgHZ1Bbka68b9HjddQMzo5/2vdq8wHJI04wg62TG8zrAc/teMQBC3KYSuc APiOy1OIZmRHi81bsn1pUlKcfTkPM+l3PNPuSjZ/aaBpvxpUTZDye2pP9w0ksDfS80tH pOZN/ijlS2qaCYSwrqN0fRKkynRKhNYJO8fM6OA8G2CsuKdSZZOvVxqq7RBE7NxP+900 BR5w== X-Received: by 10.55.21.41 with SMTP id f41mr56703962qkh.48.1436807186349; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w67sm11095250qha.7.2015.07.13.10.06.25 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:06:26 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:06:24 -0400 To: manet@ietf.org Message-Id: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:06:29 -0000 On Monday 13 July 2015 at 16:45:32 +0000, Rick Taylor wrote, in part: > The main reason we have not looked hard at the security aspects of = DLEP=20 > is that although it uses multi-hop layer-3 protocols (UDP/TCP) DLEP=20 > itself is distinctly link-local and most frequently routers and modems=20= > will be physically adjacent. >=20 > However, you are right to point out that this is an assumption on our=20= > part, and passing IESG review is critical, hence TLS RECOMMENDED seems=20= > reasonable. Rick, I am not sure what you mean by the last sentence just above. The candidate text about TLS said (summarizing greatly) that: 1) All DLEP Implementations MUST implement full TLS support, including a mandatory-to-implement cipher-suite. 2) The IETF RECOMMENDS that DLEP deployments actually use TLS. The IETF usually makes security mechanisms mandatory-to-implement, for the practical reason that one can=E2=80=99t have interoperable implementations without requiring it of implementations. However, the IETF normally does not levy absolute requirements to USE security within any particular operational deployment. The candidate text tried to follow both of those practices, and specified a readily-available-in-open-source cipher-suite. > I don't agree that DTLS for UDP should be 'RECOMMENDED', I prefer 'MAY=20= > use'. The reason being that UDP is used for multicast discovery (and=20= > I'm not sure how effective DTLS is for multicast without pre-placed=20 > keys). The discovery packets leak no private information and simply=20= > point to a TCP endpoint that can be sufficiently secured. If the authors want to omit DTLS as mandatory-to-implement, then the authors ought to have explicit text (possibly derived from the text above) in the Security Considerations explaining=20 why they believe DTLS is not helpful, applicable, or whatever. Doing that will at least show the (future) IETF Security Area=20 Reviewer that (a) the issue was considered and also (b) the reason(s) that DTLS was omitted from the DLEP specification. Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:12:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD1B11B2C47 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MWVEAuwMMkgQ for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 456EB1A6FEE for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdl129 with SMTP id l129so16152081qkd.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:12:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=7kXXCLsID81eOQswj+fJdB7z/ubRJzy13uo8XtTBuLk=; b=KQo0XxLCSxs/h+qXhiCvzbWuDlKYi08dV6RvIkaTxwCZjyZpgQOygd4isnvCEbmdrH DqBhoKIklAcODmg52P7OLOL/gQJyyP+CMdcAlMjM0zHSs2W/1r7xq2ceGyAyslMqqO4i ZK3ufJ364J3cYQk28bvO1D0nst1sC2GDRCcwhQCTvbs8s4ni4ryXewJG7j7jRjzkFtRT guTFyQMzPVpJa6jbrCWGY7Kz3NZ34/XyD0epp1RIbP2WudV4g9ygpcdPBNVe+kCnUUbN yw8okPanTaMRbRMFcqwUA+FgrOWw3UscB2YEeT2eyM97SYroyf3nQvN/tra/cxcRPmuw HfXQ== X-Received: by 10.55.43.142 with SMTP id r14mr10981633qkr.42.1436807547604; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:12:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e21sm3614352qhc.14.2015.07.13.10.12.27 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:12:27 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:12:25 -0400 To: manet@ietf.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Credit Windowing extensions X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:12:29 -0000 1) Current text unclear I concur with David Wiggins that the current text in DLEP-15 for Section 10 is too ambiguous. I support the capability, but I would like to see the specification for the capability improved. I look forward to some revised, and ideally more precisely/clearly written text for this section. 2) Packaging Separately, I would urge that since Section 10 is entirely optional-to-implement, that it be moved out of the main body of the DLEP specification, AT LEAST into a distinct Appendix and PREFERABLY into a parallel specification that would progress jointly with the base DLEP specification. Handling Credit Windowing in this way helps provide a worked example for any future RFCs with DLEP extensions. A separate document also makes it easier for users/customers to specify that the products they wish to purchase/use must implement the Credit Windowing extensions. Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:14:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABEE11A7008 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:14:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4kOAyW-OQ6br for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com (mail-wi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DF521B2C40 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicmv11 with SMTP id mv11so67763410wic.1 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qAq5I9NdfzADnpqBLk2QoEnsM0j7Vqwv0aj3WcaHeXs=; b=Mbr63odVQ9nI7LSEvTENYlnnpbxZUqfvrNfL5DnQS/5Aod6OHFBevDcyC/oTvPcUbx 1wBs8NKY9FHdFq2rKYSx0JpXxHE/1XJ0rbMbgz9+rXiFGoHhSLqtmbdPz8E8BiXzteHc 3381r8ya0VpOoOkYcGaVvf7WaohFLGgD2LGhceJMd9ekR587beU5m331LXuqo0YYJ7TK 1gfvWUttpKMq4QQjU8cGQBhtisDAH3EVKDUzNBgWI2o2x7+xpDxu2KSh++UNno7jWG7U m5AQt7t8sTDikkwpj635E9mbFtwctb4NAZz44FXCTjXom0AdPn7BKKy3i4Q5d+PX19ay v+Hw== X-Received: by 10.194.203.3 with SMTP id km3mr64909080wjc.114.1436807695011; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:14:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:14:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Henning Rogge Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:14:25 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:14:57 -0000 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 5:49 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > All, > > > While I find the security-related discussion in DLEP-15 > to be an improvement, I still really don=E2=80=99t think it is > sufficient for a modern IETF standards-track protocol. > In fact, I think that any IETF Security Area review > (which is required by the IESG) also will say that the > current text is not sufficient. > > > > 1) Security implementation needs to be mandatory I don't think that makes much sense for DLEP. DLEP is not designed to be spoken over a large network, it is mostly used over a short dedicated LAN cable between two boxes. In some cases it might be even used over loopback, just to connect a radio part with an integrated routing protocol. > Note well that requiring DLEP implementations to support > TLS is a separate question from the operational decision > whether to use TLS in a particular deployment. Traditionally, > the IETF mandates implementation of security, but only > provides advice on whether security is enabled in a > particular operational deployment. The recommended > language below is consistent with that traditional practice. > > In Section 2, page 10, top paragraph, I recommend that > the authors replace the existing text with this: > > =E2=80=9CDLEP implementations are required to implement > Transport Layer Security (TLS) [RFC5246] for > TCP sessions and Datagram Transport Layer Security > (DTLS) [RFC6347] for UDP sessions. > > Operational use of TLS and DTLS with DLEP is > RECOMMENDED to reduce security risks." Does DTLS even work well for link-local multicast? Henning Rogge From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:24:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69BB1B2C5A for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:24:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.16 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.16 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UKX9q4IpNlQp for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de (mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de [141.30.67.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEE601B2C50 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zih.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.14.4]) by mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1ZEhSP-00006B-5X for manet@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:23:57 +0200 Received: from [141.30.128.184] (helo=[192.168.1.102]) by server-40.mailclusterdns.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (envelope-from ) id 1ZEhSO-0002Gb-Rh for manet@ietf.org; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:23:56 +0200 Message-ID: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:23:57 +0200 From: Frank Fitzek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: manet@ietf.org References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TUD-Virus-Scanned: mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Network Coding in Manets X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:24:03 -0000 Dear all, I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me. I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group. Hope to see you in Prague FF -- Frank Fitzek Professor Chair of Communication Networks Institute of Communication Technology TU Dresden phone: +49 351 463 33945 fax: +49 351 463 37163 mobile: +49 173 548 2947 web: www.fitzek.net skype: fitzek 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:32:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 073C51B2CA9 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qeeisrnr7e3C for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 226E71B2CAB for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdv3 with SMTP id v3so63778561qkd.3 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:32:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=RgykVcXWgrpjNV0RsaqKeY3TececXVNyNG6K5dv2RZo=; b=ubrWx7tY734m7vJYTB4YH6by0e4GHIZmhYNZSBReDPTJdwn9YML4v/wtylsMlELs52 o76NwMkoAtpkIZCjpicAG4DJ9HM6RaT2r1fDOupgAtEvy9dneBnzJ0AiMTOtdrpLaVZ8 i3XiK+xkWBuHXATLLKbZx4gWTtuf7kbDixqEzHDC3NUigrAXrw8UXyY3/ER4xIdByUzz mJBLnQi3WNmlrG5aYkeiq8zp6pzbSpcAOomgh/lV2I+jBFxSteG+Lt84ogJ/vE+T590K OfcHL6A8CT8PbHs/uZdSMUWeLwBgRxhGab50RNWpyCgJid+sNnt++M0DA5fw8VcZ6XPO +VvA== X-Received: by 10.140.234.131 with SMTP id f125mr58822741qhc.30.1436808731490; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l11sm11286341qga.43.2015.07.13.10.32.11 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:32:09 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> References: To: Henning Rogge X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:32:14 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2015, at 13:14 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 5:49 PM, RJ Atkinson = wrote: >> All, >>=20 >>=20 >> While I find the security-related discussion in DLEP-15 >> to be an improvement, I still really don=E2=80=99t think it is >> sufficient for a modern IETF standards-track protocol. >> In fact, I think that any IETF Security Area review >> (which is required by the IESG) also will say that the >> current text is not sufficient. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> 1) Security implementation needs to be mandatory >=20 > I don't think that makes much sense for DLEP. I do =E2=80=94 more detail below. > DLEP is not designed to be spoken over a large network, it is mostly > used over a short dedicated LAN cable between two boxes. I agree that is the design concept. However, since DLEP runs over IP, DLEP can be used across multiple IP subnets. Just as importantly, DLEP can be attacked remotely from across multiple subnets. If the goal really is only to support link-local use, maybe DLEP should run directly on top of Ethernet (i.e. not over IP). ARP runs directly over Ethernet, so there is ample precedent. If DLEP runs over IP, then it needs mandatory-to-implement security. The choice of TLS and a profile that is supported by OpenSSL is designed to ease the implementer=E2=80=99s life. TLS is not perfect as it protects the TCP payload but not the TCP header, but I think TLS will be sufficient to get past the IETF Security Area review. > In some cases it might be even used over loopback, just to connect a > radio part with an integrated routing protocol. Sure. This is one of the reasons that the IETF usually requires = *implementation* of security mechanisms, but does not require *operational use*=20 of whatever security mechanisms it specifies. Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:37:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C9F1B2CBE for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:37:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.078 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.078 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1bqCcf9LhBa8 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-f176.google.com (mail-pd0-f176.google.com [209.85.192.176]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 150CF1B2CB5 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdjr16 with SMTP id r16so66263806pdj.3 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=MUnap2VpjQvgYv+lgt8IFAP9OJ4XkEk944xxVrLDX0A=; b=Rrlo0/0mC5ZUQ6Dt4csvRX2e3yLITamnc/Mwe7vzMBE3DDGlSZwGK/v0hAUhAh7FyM 3Y3M8RJ9gkk0fp/XQ3HnHmVEZ7toWVqsDS/yhgDrvJ5XJtRiEBnSq9Ts8z0mtHrTUMsz taL2l3+684Yi8/F4vDj77C5w8LFpuf62yeOnW/rvN8h4jcKbsFYDgzjBq8gfQ263vekS df2yUChYcvRO81aDMuarLJ49QQR0LavdW3BvaHSIOvxjWhGQhd9G9WKRsOXwJwgHwF8N fUQW1cXqprH7hv8t6efkFpVU/A2GxNinc7CtfaXFA2RBvi3DJQISaJqRDe+ziyXSDxLL P4FA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn+vKZDgBCP1FY+zWeRTb7nmFVPXmGau1HxEX8HHFLKd+if2mIcSA9K2wz0DHE9yjni5aj7 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.176.131 with SMTP id ci3mr72643782pbc.146.1436809053448; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.66.220.170 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:37:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> References: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:37:33 +0300 Message-ID: From: Dhafer Ben Arbia To: Frank Fitzek Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=047d7bd6b2ac427330051ac52d76 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Network Coding in Manets X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:37:36 -0000 --047d7bd6b2ac427330051ac52d76 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bd6b2ac42732c051ac52d75 --047d7bd6b2ac42732c051ac52d75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear Frank, Thanks for your interesting proposal for sharing your precious knowledge about MANETs coding and implementation. Actually, I coded since a month OLSRv2 (RFC7181) on WSNet 3.0 Simulator. But I'm looking forward to implement it (or enhance the existing implementation) on Linux kernel (eventually on Raspberry Pi+Linux). Do you plan to share your works on live conference, or by web streaming ? Thanks. *Best Regards* ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Dhafer BEN ARBIA, **Research Assistant , PhD student* *M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team* [image: Description: cid:4E94BAE7-1758-400B-A495-E63F7DA6EC56] *Qatar Mobility Innovations Center - * *www.qmic.com* PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park *| *Doha, Qatar [image: Description: cid:B256A657-1674-4FF8-9E73-2F6AD5141F95] [image: Description: cid:90AC65B8-C5C3-4834-A662-E528D54DEBBE] [image: Description: cid:24741D7C-30C5-4E66-BDAE-35BFADE4A9E4] On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Frank Fitzek wrote: > Dear all, > > I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back > of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath > and coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me. > > I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with > my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am > happy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot > in your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group. > > Hope to see you in Prague > > FF > > -- > Frank Fitzek > Professor > Chair of Communication Networks > Institute of Communication Technology > TU Dresden > > phone: +49 351 463 33945 > fax: +49 351 463 37163 > mobile: +49 173 548 2947 > web: www.fitzek.net > skype: fitzek > > 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > -- *Best Regards* ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- *Dhafer BEN ARBIA, **Research Assistant , PhD student* *M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team* [image: Description: cid:4E94BAE7-1758-400B-A495-E63F7DA6EC56] *Qatar Mobility Innovations Center - * *www.qmic.com* PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park *| *Doha, Qatar [image: Description: cid:B256A657-1674-4FF8-9E73-2F6AD5141F95] [image: Description: cid:90AC65B8-C5C3-4834-A662-E528D54DEBBE] [image: Description: cid:24741D7C-30C5-4E66-BDAE-35BFADE4A9E4] --047d7bd6b2ac42732c051ac52d75 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Frank,

Thanks for your i= nteresting proposal for sharing your precious knowledge about MANETs coding= and implementation.
Actually, I coded since a month OLSRv2 (RFC71= 81) on WSNet 3.0 Simulator. But I'm looking forward to implement it (or= enhance the existing implementation) on Linux kernel (eventually on Raspbe= rry Pi+Linux). Do you plan to share your works on live conference, or by we= b streaming ?
Thanks.

Best Regards

----------------------------------------------------= -------------------------------------

Dhafer BEN ARBIA, Research Assistant , PhD student<= /b>

M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team

<= a href=3D"http://www.qmic.com/" target=3D"_blank">3D"Description:

=

Qatar Mobility Innovations Center - =C2=A0www.qmic.co= m

PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park=C2=A0|=C2= =A0Doha, Qatar

3D"Description:3D"Description:<= /a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0



On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Frank= Fitzek <frank.fitzek@tu-dresden.de> wrote:
Dear all,

I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back of= your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath a= nd coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me.

I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with my= that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am ha= ppy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot in= your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group.

Hope to see you in Prague

FF

--
Frank Fitzek
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:=C2=A0 +49 351 463 33945
fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 www.fitzek.net
skype:=C2=A0 fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



--

= Best Regards

=

---------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------

Dhafer BEN ARBIA, Research Assistant , PhD student

M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team

<= a href=3D"http://www.qmic.com/" target=3D"_blank">=3D"Description:

= Qatar Mobility Innovations Center - =C2=A0www.qmic.com=

PO Box 21= 0531, Qatar Science and Technology Park=C2=A0|=C2=A0Doha, = Qatar

= 3D"Description:3D"Description:=C2=A0 =C2=A03D"Descri=

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jO9Xq3pwiuvY43xPreHTqBGs8+NssDh8zvI2n1c+SWCugPiwgbDK+fAGQfG/gSg7OaNFkFW0WBfL lAT5wuH3rULKH95qR870X6PSjnR2WYKgAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC --047d7bd6b2ac427330051ac52d76-- From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:42:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E22D1B2CAF for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:42:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3Tbg6BsFhiox for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 653F91B2CA4 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgmn9 with SMTP id n9so48847687wgm.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sCveprv6CVNvUBL8WQP7Y3FqKp9LFl60fHSNfd31V4Y=; b=t017y3QQoLSuh6x4Ef6KooFPDIWABFmZrUyfaTO08ILMlsCIXvTIvPP1lqGRROqeZF a2kjfZiqQC5QwcWa9ePSyA0mmWezVZdYM52OpIImGmLGKZdidnxY5vV/nDPbN8OLk2vc 6tbe/4jlUratOzDnuZNWEToZzwEYvaDSEyuWORrwKm5xBooPCOt8avHmvbSAnBGm5HQt XJLYpq8XHThGFtUarrMe9yJgdNGi6FnRdQRBQUrR4UTNOc++NIUt5zJsPIpSBS8NXj3P 02DxunUSKry1xBxTIyUnoDc/M6iM+bI/4oCrBVJQ+EjhUVRlpPV/td1RnKIIQ0wuZRmC tZAw== X-Received: by 10.180.103.227 with SMTP id fz3mr24659849wib.45.1436809343091; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:42:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:41:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:41:53 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:42:25 -0000 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:32 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: >>> 1) Security implementation needs to be mandatory >> >> I don't think that makes much sense for DLEP. > > I do =E2=80=94 more detail below. > >> DLEP is not designed to be spoken over a large network, it is mostly >> used over a short dedicated LAN cable between two boxes. > > I agree that is the design concept. However, since DLEP runs > over IP, DLEP can be used across multiple IP subnets. Just as > importantly, DLEP can be attacked remotely from across multiple > subnets. > > If the goal really is only to support link-local use, maybe > DLEP should run directly on top of Ethernet (i.e. not over IP). > ARP runs directly over Ethernet, so there is ample precedent. What would be about mandating (D)TLS for DLEP running NOT on linklocal addresses (both for unicast and multicast)? This should be a good compromise to keep embedded implementations clean and small while allowing for secure multihop DLEP connections. Most OpenWRT installations (which I normally use for the radio side of DLEP based on embedded routers) don't even have a OpenSSL library installed. Henning Rogge From nobody Mon Jul 13 10:43:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E64BF1B2CA4 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2hE4bzcwEE3c for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x22d.google.com (mail-qg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AAB11B2CAF for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qget71 with SMTP id t71so159733606qge.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:43:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=GsPm3/aGWV7DAfzoDiokO4nQPKeQpQ1iH6ELJ6hgBfk=; b=b3HSVMG9IaetZ9MfePO+mAbcAzFGvcgpzdTH4A0YGoBzYG74HbLsFEUJ6ja17KH+xX kLGAUE4suDHbaEfHxeA8P89UF6vDGJn+vfyFmXqaz9Zu0T0JMPC/GDwoIGItfLQN5GD5 DN0YBcUqek5AZkyrbMZYx6xYHxPrcn6DEo9MACyq31ryC60qzQ4/VQn6Y/reed9oAnjJ 6LWYx0prFiNPmXZWsDOGnYqMzGSx1RYXaYM/AJ1yWssiYwMWNBKo2W8RWkIplowr8LMi N5EVmhZVp1Y45z/2Q72plGbSG+3jK5XwUe/sVNRQ6RUddPreYqIJOkDci6rxk/CvNpzF PZ4A== X-Received: by 10.140.42.247 with SMTP id c110mr54572680qga.100.1436809420630; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.2.2.49] (cpe-71-70-140-122.nc.res.rr.com. [71.70.140.122]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j102sm1879716qkh.46.2015.07.13.10.43.39 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 10:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: Shawn Jury In-Reply-To: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:43:52 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <37F1E515-462D-44CF-A740-9F2CC185565A@gmail.com> References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> To: RJ Atkinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 17:43:43 -0000 Ran, I disagree with your assessment. I=E2=80=99ve been looking into use = cases for customers where the DLEP router and Radio are separated by a = L3 device and cannot see how this would ever work. At one point in = time, there was an assumption in the DLEP draft that the radio must act = like a transparent bridge. This was because the DLEP router would be = sending packets with the MAC address of the remote peer. The radio = would know which peer to forward the packet to by looking at the MAC = address. If you put a L3 device in between the two DLEP devices = (router/radio), the MAC address is no longer relevant due to the L3 = device rewriting the MAC destination and the radio can no longer use the = MAC address to determine the destination. BTW, the only reason the =E2=80=9Ctransparent bridge=E2=80=9D = requirement was removed was so that we could have a remote device acting = as a L3 device. Going over anything other than a local subnet will completely break the = protocol, so your concern of =E2=80=9Cbecause it uses IP, it will cross = multiple subnets=E2=80=9D is unjustified. =20 Shawn > On Jul 13, 2015, at 1:32 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: >=20 > I agree that is the design concept. However, since DLEP runs > over IP, DLEP can be used across multiple IP subnets. Just as > importantly, DLEP can be attacked remotely from across multiple > subnets. >=20 > If the goal really is only to support link-local use, maybe > DLEP should run directly on top of Ethernet (i.e. not over IP). > ARP runs directly over Ethernet, so there is ample precedent. >=20 > If DLEP runs over IP, then it needs mandatory-to-implement > security. The choice of TLS and a profile that is supported > by OpenSSL is designed to ease the implementer=E2=80=99s life. TLS > is not perfect as it protects the TCP payload but not the TCP > header, but I think TLS will be sufficient to get past the IETF > Security Area review. From nobody Mon Jul 13 11:07:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA2E21B2CF7 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:07:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Om-X1mppOgy for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de (mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de [141.30.67.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68EC91B2CF9 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zih.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.14.4]) by mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1ZEi8t-0003j2-6F; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:07:51 +0200 Received: from [141.30.128.184] (helo=[192.168.1.102]) by server-40.mailclusterdns.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (envelope-from ) id 1ZEi8r-00038x-AB; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:07:49 +0200 Message-ID: <55A3FE76.8030403@tu-dresden.de> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:07:50 +0200 From: Frank Fitzek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dhafer Ben Arbia References: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030501060308070804070207" X-TUD-Virus-Scanned: mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Network Coding in Manets X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:07:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030501060308070804070207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I will tavel to prague and will have some nodes with me. We are using the KODO-Python environment (check github). Currently we have some nice results showing that coding helps to reduce number of packets to send and it reduces the delay. It would greatly benefit from multipath though. So looking ofrward for multipath routing schemes. FF Am 13.07.2015 um 19:37 schrieb Dhafer Ben Arbia: > Dear Frank, > > Thanks for your interesting proposal for sharing your precious > knowledge about MANETs coding and implementation. > Actually, I coded since a month OLSRv2 (RFC7181) on WSNet 3.0 > Simulator. But I'm looking forward to implement it (or enhance the > existing implementation) on Linux kernel (eventually on Raspberry > Pi+Linux). Do you plan to share your works on live conference, or by > web streaming ? > Thanks. > > /*Best Regards*/** > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dhafer BEN ARBIA, **Research Assistant , PhD student* > > *M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team* > > Description: cid:4E94BAE7-1758-400B-A495-E63F7DA6EC56 > > > *Qatar Mobility Innovations Center - **www.qmic.com* > > > PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park *| *Doha, Qatar > > Description: cid:B256A657-1674-4FF8-9E73-2F6AD5141F95 > Description: > cid:90AC65B8-C5C3-4834-A662-E528D54DEBBE > Description: > cid:24741D7C-30C5-4E66-BDAE-35BFADE4A9E4 > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Frank Fitzek > > wrote: > > Dear all, > > I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in > the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. > Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are > interesting for me. > > I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry > Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is > interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In > case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even > introduce our project to the group. > > Hope to see you in Prague > > FF > > -- > Frank Fitzek > Professor > Chair of Communication Networks > Institute of Communication Technology > TU Dresden > > phone: +49 351 463 33945 > fax: +49 351 463 37163 > mobile: +49 173 548 2947 > web: www.fitzek.net > skype: fitzek > > 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > > > > -- > > /*Best Regards*/** > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > *Dhafer BEN ARBIA, **Research Assistant , PhD student* > > *M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team* > > Description: cid:4E94BAE7-1758-400B-A495-E63F7DA6EC56 > > > *Qatar Mobility Innovations Center - **www.qmic.com* > > > PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park *| *Doha, Qatar > > Description: cid:B256A657-1674-4FF8-9E73-2F6AD5141F95 > Description: > cid:90AC65B8-C5C3-4834-A662-E528D54DEBBE > Description: > cid:24741D7C-30C5-4E66-BDAE-35BFADE4A9E4 > -- Frank Fitzek Professor Chair of Communication Networks Institute of Communication Technology TU Dresden phone: +49 351 463 33945 fax: +49 351 463 37163 mobile: +49 173 548 2947 web: www.fitzek.net skype: fitzek 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de --------------030501060308070804070207 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------040704080604000204080704" --------------040704080604000204080704 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi,

I will tavel to prague and will have some nodes with me. We are using the KODO-Python environment (check github).
Currently we have some nice results showing that coding helps to reduce number of packets to send and it reduces the delay. It would greatly benefit from multipath though. So looking ofrward for multipath routing schemes.

FF

Am 13.07.2015 um 19:37 schrieb Dhafer Ben Arbia:
Dear Frank,

Thanks for your interesting proposal for sharing your precious knowledge about MANETs coding and implementation.
Actually, I coded since a month OLSRv2 (RFC7181) on WSNet 3.0 Simulator. But I'm looking forward to implement it (or enhance the existing implementation) on Linux kernel (eventually on Raspberry Pi+Linux). Do you plan to share your works on live conference, or by web streaming ?
Thanks.

Best Regards

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dhafer BEN ARBIA, Research Assistant , PhD student

M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team

Description: cid:4E94BAE7-1758-400B-A495-E63F7DA6EC56

Qatar Mobility Innovations Center -  www.qmic.com

PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park | Doha, Qatar

Description: cid:B256A657-1674-4FF8-9E73-2F6AD5141F95Description: cid:90AC65B8-C5C3-4834-A662-E528D54DEBBE   Description: cid:24741D7C-30C5-4E66-BDAE-35BFADE4A9E4



On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:23 PM, Frank Fitzek <frank.fitzek@tu-dresden.de> wrote:
Dear all,

I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me.

I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group.

Hope to see you in Prague

FF

--
Frank Fitzek
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:  +49 351 463 33945
fax:    +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:    www.fitzek.net
skype:  fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



--

Best Regards

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dhafer BEN ARBIA, Research Assistant , PhD student

M2M Platforms for Smart Living Technology Team

Description: cid:4E94BAE7-1758-400B-A495-E63F7DA6EC56

Qatar Mobility Innovations Center -  www.qmic.com

PO Box 210531, Qatar Science and Technology Park | Doha, Qatar

Description: cid:B256A657-1674-4FF8-9E73-2F6AD5141F95Description: cid:90AC65B8-C5C3-4834-A662-E528D54DEBBE   Description: cid:24741D7C-30C5-4E66-BDAE-35BFADE4A9E4


-- 
Frank Fitzek 
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:  +49 351 463 33945
fax:    +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:    www.fitzek.net
skype:	fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de
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SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B-PQSWhw7t1s for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F2591B2D0B for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qget71 with SMTP id t71so160261350qge.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vT+jh3i+ic+wmHCa1nxK0YMEZ66FDWGMTYOpIbeLZQs=; b=I6Z5zboYOpiblODY3MU32TT0Gv01Kas/+P5hl03DijGgl7EotcCFQGvIoJ86ER/1wl vbI6t9vM1AhQ826OIAR1eAcTh96mgrUAzBIWtIKQx++JxUgxb9zmkzFRYaOi2pNHWyFb 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[108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i90sm11205175qkh.5.2015.07.13.11.20.48 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <37F1E515-462D-44CF-A740-9F2CC185565A@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:20:46 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9E556C16-DE27-4C4B-AC1B-4340536B5281@gmail.com> References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> <37F1E515-462D-44CF-A740-9F2CC185565A@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:20:52 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2015, at 13:43 , Shawn Jury wrote: >=20 > Ran, >=20 > I disagree with your assessment. I=E2=80=99ve been looking into = use cases for customers where the DLEP router and Radio are separated by = a L3 device and cannot see how this would ever work. At one point in = time, there was an assumption in the DLEP draft that the radio must act = like a transparent bridge. This was because the DLEP router would be = sending packets with the MAC address of the remote peer. The radio = would know which peer to forward the packet to by looking at the MAC = address. If you put a L3 device in between the two DLEP devices = (router/radio), the MAC address is no longer relevant due to the L3 = device rewriting the MAC destination and the radio can no longer use the = MAC address to determine the destination. That is a great paragraph. Quite honestly, some of that text would be helpful as introductory text in the DLEP specification, but note well that all the discussion above is about the data path, not about=20 the DLEP control path. > BTW, the only reason the =E2=80=9Ctransparent bridge=E2=80=9D = requirement was removed > was so that we could have a remote device acting as a L3 device. (I know of at least some remote devices that could be acting as an L3 device, although most devices I can think of are likely to act as a kind of L2 device. :-) > Going over anything other than a local subnet will completely > break the protocol, Going over anything but link-local might break the data path,=20 but going over multiple IP subnets does not break the control path=20 (which is a TCP/IP session). =20 Also, it is important to realize that in many environments=20 a single IP subnet has a very wide area presence. To support wide-area VM migration, the IETF has standardized various ways=20 of L2 tunneling between and among geographically distant locations. While many of us believe that the common deployment is likely to involve a single Ethernet cable connecting port N of an IP router to some port on a IP/Ethernet-capable radio, the protocol would work just fine with an IP router in one location connected via a L2 tunnel to a different location. Depending on whether one believes that SDN will be widely deployed, that remote connection (still single IP subnet) could become a common=20 deployment scenario at some future point. Moreover, even if the intentional TCP/IP session runs over a single=20 IP subnet, which is what I think most folks anticipate, that session=20 still is subject to attack from any IP connected path (just like any=20 other TCP/IP session is subject to remote attack). > so your concern of =E2=80=9Cbecause it uses IP, it will cross multiple = subnets=E2=80=9D > is unjustified. =20 My concern is about protecting the control path. Please see the discussion above about why the L2 data path constraint doesn=E2=80=99t = apply to the control path. More generally, the IETF is often concerned about authenticating control protocols (like DLEP/TCP/IP) - even when the actual user data=20 being sent (via L2 Ethernet in this case) is not being protected. My personal preference would be for an authentication-only solution, because I don=E2=80=99t think that DLEP control traffic needs = confidentiality, but the TLS community seems opposed to authentication-only approaches and TLS seems simpler to implement than any obvious IETF alternatives. If no security approach is mandated for implementations, users won=E2=80=99= t be able to obtain and deploy interoperable security in the environments=20= that need it. By not mandating use of security, users in environments where security is not desired/needed don=E2=80=99t have to use security. Cheers, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 11:40:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7129E1A8767 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:40:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4VlBeDXfc0G for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x231.google.com (mail-qg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7242A1B2D22 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qgy5 with SMTP id 5so24720551qgy.3 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hvqySN4Wn0K24a2z61wxr9kxOJGkJfQUssJivUmRKtY=; b=AJ+n6xzdDl14QV+zu/fE/oJwPm2M9JHqI6X1xi6OyKgreFI0MgojhE22hVyaKbrUxw g7N2FiA3gEToeRDPH9djpGsy/qt/wmp8sA9byKvCFj84rq+H26j2MGS9xbIS61wO5VXO OANNoMtPKFKfzyuSP5r+6ZdB4omDm8RbHf6pxPXtBoCehXmsyZ9Vcb3tuj3TnnJvFiqf w+3DpMnhWiOfyq0G66CzcCIrNrhkeSMxHlrjkYKqAYjRFj44DRUmriwiqRuJyA9dm3YX W9WaBpdbZ52Hb2UGX2UqF1AFh5McfQ3wIZQRcPZ2VHlG+U2U+vyUgmaRKo7Gst8GC9A1 1dQA== X-Received: by 10.55.15.129 with SMTP id 1mr55410298qkp.29.1436812844686; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 69sm11224932qhv.17.2015.07.13.11.40.44 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 14:40:42 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:40:47 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2015, at 13:41 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:32 PM, RJ Atkinson = wrote: >>>> 1) Security implementation needs to be mandatory >>>=20 >>> I don't think that makes much sense for DLEP. >>=20 >> I do =E2=80=94 more detail below. >>=20 >>> DLEP is not designed to be spoken over a large network, it is mostly >>> used over a short dedicated LAN cable between two boxes. >>=20 >> I agree that is the design concept. However, since DLEP runs >> over IP, DLEP can be used across multiple IP subnets. Just as >> importantly, DLEP can be attacked remotely from across multiple >> subnets. >>=20 >> If the goal really is only to support link-local use, maybe >> DLEP should run directly on top of Ethernet (i.e. not over IP). >> ARP runs directly over Ethernet, so there is ample precedent. >=20 > What would be about mandating (D)TLS for DLEP running NOT on linklocal > addresses (both for unicast and multicast)? >=20 > This should be a good compromise to keep embedded implementations > clean and small while allowing for secure multihop DLEP connections. I do not fully understand what you are suggesting above. My own concern, and what I think will be the security community=E2=80=99s main concern, is with protecting the DLEP control protocol(s). If users want data confidentiality for user data, then those users really ought to use some end-to-end security mechanism (e.g. host to host IPsec, TLS, DTLS) for their user data IP flows. In any case, the proposed text is clear that users could chose not to enable (D)TLS in their own deployment(s). =20 > Most OpenWRT installations (which I normally use for the radio side > of DLEP based on embedded routers) don't even have a OpenSSL library > installed. OpenSSL already is designed to be used in embedded systems=20 with limited memory and limited CPU. I believe my (now very old) iPod Touch with a slower ARM CPU and limited RAM uses OpenSSL, for example. According to this URL from April 2014, OpenWRT already supports=20 a reasonably modern version of OpenSSL, and some people clearly are using it with their OpenWRT systems, so it should work fine and you ought not need to do a port of OpenSSL: = "https://lists.openwrt.org/pipermail/openwrt-devel/2014-April/024749.html"= Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 11:50:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 244C71A877F for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s0NkOKEh-fyt for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x232.google.com (mail-wg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77EA81A8776 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgjx7 with SMTP id x7so303110720wgj.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:50:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qNyODrDhVy5e6ZqqUJwJ2TCvUo5lVtJr1uVKxOq4UhU=; b=oHozpgZbXSvapDdchDn1SeB0MXxxTqM4VILLv3oj3LXYLDosbGk+DtzK5QWQeZMQqY p4pACm2IQYmTApGG+iQQhLjnkSzBR+xGkDaWYXrBJlby6EXoG+7h+hAG0F9FqjzHopy7 28uJNgTuOiNFCgQti7e2USpO9frsoaGfhXkTTvNiV+aWlgCfcuk7+AD6xX8uCYdfw5m9 clHUdTh280KsXERCBOnTyE/HRX1yLAbhwpq9OUWVtaTpcmXukk8aQxz0zv4+j+4okO98 hzZdTyhOiSD3gzC2Nj2RoGfmp25oRnQwgAHeemRujmvvlVmhB+wW9bpmdzaA53HGegQo k8YQ== X-Received: by 10.180.103.227 with SMTP id fz3mr25162082wib.45.1436813411017; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:50:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 11:49:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:49:41 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:50:14 -0000 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:40 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: >> What would be about mandating (D)TLS for DLEP running NOT on linklocal >> addresses (both for unicast and multicast)? >> >> This should be a good compromise to keep embedded implementations >> clean and small while allowing for secure multihop DLEP connections. > > I do not fully understand what you are suggesting above. I am suggesting that (D)TLS capability is not mandatory for a DLEP radio/router implementation that directly binds to a linklocal address. Which means it cannot be contacted by a far-away IP network. > My own concern, and what I think will be the security community=E2=80=99s > main concern, is with protecting the DLEP control protocol(s). > > If users want data confidentiality for user data, then those users > really ought to use some end-to-end security mechanism (e.g. host > to host IPsec, TLS, DTLS) for their user data IP flows. > > In any case, the proposed text is clear that users could chose > not to enable (D)TLS in their own deployment(s). > >> Most OpenWRT installations (which I normally use for the radio side >> of DLEP based on embedded routers) don't even have a OpenSSL library >> installed. > > OpenSSL already is designed to be used in embedded systems > with limited memory and limited CPU. I believe my (now very > old) iPod Touch with a slower ARM CPU and limited RAM uses > OpenSSL, for example. > > According to this URL from April 2014, OpenWRT already supports > a reasonably modern version of OpenSSL, and some people clearly > are using it with their OpenWRT systems, so it should work fine > and you ought not need to do a port of OpenSSL: Yes, OpenWRT had openssl packages for ages... but most embedded routers don't install them because they are quite large. When you have 4 or 8 MB of flash for your operation system you start cutting away unnecessary things. SSH is normally done by "dropbear", a very small SSH server with a statically linked libtomcrypt. I would prefer to have a standard compliant DLEP implementation that can work without importing something like libopenssl. Henning From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:26:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F8D1B2DB0 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:26:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CbhuEUIufZpd for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8FE781B2DAF for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdl129 with SMTP id l129so18966775qkd.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:26:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=a8mS6nO+2zOVCMo/hfTPU+AlPp7VIfHHNorrjzByDn0=; b=zGkJLmMDoSVbYrINy1vEQAdYLA8fVVO5Y/NIphWp4BbEZpMQ8yx/tP8/+N1CKuojci cGdYPsjJxvcunemQwPvHtXvvBsInLuDYvlNkCSyd2ILKNYCHHjAfhYUXbFxVrm6dHPeJ 2uZmNy60Dv719yb/NdddzSGM4fBszRNpdAed5GdJJhq9B4MW3FVCK4rM+9WCb3nnufBA 1eyxOCydCCipUUQY5+QaUOMJ/4zVCy5V4gTtb0t+K1ZfK00pJkuTHW6GLhtEkY0uPcIB b59KtdxalDlwHHFJFgC9wL8M5w5xfABTYK6w+wvZOKiSYYT5Gg8VaAhZlatb16gslR+V Iu6w== X-Received: by 10.140.107.101 with SMTP id g92mr55125234qgf.58.1436815599520; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 99sm9195153qku.20.2015.07.13.12.26.39 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:26:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:26:37 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:26:42 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2015, at 14:49 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 8:40 PM, RJ Atkinson = wrote: >>> What would be about mandating (D)TLS for DLEP running NOT on = linklocal >>> addresses (both for unicast and multicast)? >>>=20 >>> This should be a good compromise to keep embedded implementations >>> clean and small while allowing for secure multihop DLEP connections. >>=20 >> I do not fully understand what you are suggesting above. >=20 > I am suggesting that (D)TLS capability is not mandatory for a DLEP > radio/router implementation that directly binds to a linklocal > address. >=20 > Which means it cannot be contacted by a far-away IP network. I can see 2 approaches to that goal. 1) Opt-Out for Implementations that limit themselves to=20 non-routable IP addresses. If that were what the WG-as-a-whole decided, one could add-in a sentence like this into the draft candidate =E2=80=9CSecurity=20 Considerations=E2=80=9D text: =E2=80=9CDLEP implementations that ONLY are capable of communicating = using non-routable Link-local IP addresses (e.g. 169.254/16 for IPv4; for IPv6), and are NOT capable of ever binding to a routable IP address (e.g. 10.0/8) are not required to implement support=20 for TLS or DTLS.=E2=80=9D 2) General prohibition on using DLEP with routable IP addresses However, if the WG-as-a-whole were comfortable with limitation (1),=20 above, then maybe the WG-as-a-whole would be comfortable with requiring=20= that limitation very broadly in all cases, but that would mean adding=20 multiple =E2=80=9CMUST ONLY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=9D = items to the DLEP-15++=20 specification document. A proposed new Section 1.3 "IP Addressing with DLEP=E2=80=9D would contain: =E2=80=9CDLEP is designed and intended only for use within a single IP subnetwork. (** Add more text here =E2=80=94 possibly=20= along the lines of the note from Shawn Jury from earlier today, noting the data path limitation as well. **) =E2=80=9CFor security reasons, DLEP implementations MUST NOT = support=20 or ever use routable IP addresses. DLEP implementations=20 MUST ONLY support and use non-routable link-local unicast=20 IP addresses (e.g. 169.254/16 for IPv4; FE80::/10) for all=20 DLEP/TCP/IP sessions. DLEP implementations MUST ONLY support=20 and use non-routable link-local unicast IP addresses or=20 non-routable link-local multicast IP addresses for all DLEP/UDP/IP sessions.=E2=80=9D Then, for consistency with the above, at least Sections 9.8 and 9.9=20 also would need to be updated with =E2=80=9CMUST NOT SEND=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CMUST IGNORE IF RECEIVED=E2=80=9D language for the case where an IP Address Data Item=20= for a (real or would-be) DLEP Peer contained a routable IP address. (It is possible that some other sections also would need to have=20 these new IP address constraints documented; I=E2=80=99m not sure.) I believe that if all of the above were accepted by the WG-as-a-whole, then it would be reasonable to change the proposed requirement for=20 (D)TLS from =E2=80=9CMUST=E2=80=9D to =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D. =20 If approach (2) were adopted by the WG-as-a-whole, then the "Security Considerations" should document the constraint against routable IP addresses as being created in part to reduce operational security risks. =20 (In general, a complete and clearly written "Security Considerations=E2=80= =9D section has the best chance of getting past the IETF Security Area review with the least delay.) Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:38:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0C11B2DCA for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:38:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6RmmRg6Q0KxI for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD72D1B2DC8 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so38458143wib.1 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7tzE3VbcW81OvGjCyCBSmUzCifCjLfzhMV5oEOSb7GU=; b=NIfFxlR3gFVh0eYrnH/51ezGNVpKNlUbJenQvAXg47x370e1vhOu5YHviw/YXSiJi1 ldPprSvsY4GLyopPr83m0WYhZhNBMBRuRi819YiF2m2U6bBvvT5BC2NGvn2PdUJzlwuz +IwIYi3zGCsGUThA2b8FJrlw5p/XA5DPIdCTxv4RK1DJvEVZ4x0ycuS7WVW1IeSZxnZf oQ20jbquM+eS+xuDGLVKQNTGLBo4gN79uDTWfBU15keKYLmDaBBOxo+ynXYfk79rYqxe nHpSMbx25uVOuFSQv435AvQ8//56QY/rSfNCIOQq6GZcQ3XabIzLQMpMWA8Oe/ugbXtc zTVw== X-Received: by 10.180.101.233 with SMTP id fj9mr25497170wib.45.1436816319558; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:38:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <4EE9E8CF-0615-441B-A0E1-B8A4E67778E4@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:38:10 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:38:42 -0000 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:26 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > I can see 2 approaches to that goal. > > 1) Opt-Out for Implementations that limit themselves to > non-routable IP addresses. > > If that were what the WG-as-a-whole decided, one could add-in > a sentence like this into the draft candidate =E2=80=9CSecurity > Considerations=E2=80=9D text: > > =E2=80=9CDLEP implementations that ONLY are capable of communicating us= ing > non-routable Link-local IP addresses (e.g. 169.254/16 for IPv4; > for IPv6), and are NOT capable of ever binding to a routable IP > address (e.g. 10.0/8) are not required to implement support > for TLS or DTLS.=E2=80=9D I could work with this... the reason I want to push for "no tls" is that I like the idea of a DLEP radio that does not need to be configured. Just use stateless IPv6 autoconfiguration and bind all local services (including DLEP) to the IPv6 linklocal IP. Then use the DLEP discovery mechanism to make the router aware of the radio... at this point the router pushes a configuration to the radio and starts using it. This makes maintenance of multi-radio MANET nodes much easier. > 2) General prohibition on using DLEP with routable IP addresses > > However, if the WG-as-a-whole were comfortable with limitation (1), > above, then maybe the WG-as-a-whole would be comfortable with requiring > that limitation very broadly in all cases, but that would mean adding > multiple =E2=80=9CMUST ONLY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=9D items= to the DLEP-15++ > specification document. > > A proposed new Section 1.3 "IP Addressing with DLEP=E2=80=9D > would contain: > > =E2=80=9CDLEP is designed and intended only for use within a > single IP subnetwork. (** Add more text here =E2=80=94 possibly > along the lines of the note from Shawn Jury from earlier > today, noting the data path limitation as well. **) > > =E2=80=9CFor security reasons, DLEP implementations MUST NOT supp= ort > or ever use routable IP addresses. there is a "for the DLEP control traffic". > DLEP implementations > MUST ONLY support and use non-routable link-local unicast > IP addresses (e.g. 169.254/16 for IPv4; FE80::/10) for all > DLEP/TCP/IP sessions. DLEP implementations MUST ONLY support > and use non-routable link-local unicast IP addresses or > non-routable link-local multicast IP addresses for all > DLEP/UDP/IP sessions.=E2=80=9D > > Then, for consistency with the above, at least Sections 9.8 and 9.9 > also would need to be updated with =E2=80=9CMUST NOT SEND=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9CMUST IGNORE > IF RECEIVED=E2=80=9D language for the case where an IP Address Data Item > for a (real or would-be) DLEP Peer contained a routable IP address. > (It is possible that some other sections also would need to have > these new IP address constraints documented; I=E2=80=99m not sure.) I think you are mixing up the "IPv4/IPv6 Connection Point" TLV and the "IP Address/Subnet" TLV. The first delivers the DLEP control socket, so it would be restricted. The second one is about announcing router IPs (routable) to the radio, so the radio can send them (via some part of its wireless protocol) to the other side and then via DLEP to the other router. Henning Rogge From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:41:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 680831B2DAF for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:41:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DtXg1Dab9fxd for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x229.google.com (mail-qg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF1F71B2D2F for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qget71 with SMTP id t71so161394940qge.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:41:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:subject:message-id:date :to:mime-version; bh=be6S7+mUa5Gz4bpXr+sNu4c2FgyyjRKP3TVsuij/6Kg=; b=LqOXBF8Bwbr10e3L4WUsNyyTYMCYHHOkE9VE8w3DXuXlUmtXMWbFnV8qqzcOP86L5K ag9SHlaSwMjxfFaZnWz61A5J91RctHHkH9ApEcaJzxDx/P9UjMaHKRPxvcuvTIZTxVsl w0HW9BfZbv5iI1+GjPhMstj0HzyF1L9JRknm9NR+7CMQwtKXHHWNg5cqioUlANce/VtA pIQCFm3iROi1tMysbTM80vzv9GGUwIkGd5UzIfR+93jle0I7L6yCaAQwTshz4plc48lb gcizZyXpvH/0jbdaIX7zkDzIZMphU74C+bYLOIqcQd2mr2k5sTFauZgkwXXgf5xSz2Q6 5nUQ== X-Received: by 10.140.238.22 with SMTP id j22mr58148279qhc.98.1436816472138; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g30sm2442688qge.11.2015.07.13.12.41.11 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:41:11 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:41:10 -0400 To: MANET IETF Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:41:14 -0000 1) Readability of DLEP Specification I find it odd that some of the diagrams needed to understand the DLEP Concept of Operations are buried in Appendix A and Appendix B. I would find the specification much more readable if a distinct =E2=80=9CConcept of Operations=E2=80=9D sub-section were = created out of some existing text in 1.0 plus Appendices A & B. 1A) I would suggest that the existing 1.0 text be retained, but that 1.0 end after the phrase =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6data loss and = additional retransmissions on the link.=E2=80=9D 1B) The remaining text from the current 1.0 should move into a new sub-section: "1.1 Concept of Operations=E2=80=9D 1C) This new subsection would also include the text (and crucially the diagrams) from current Appendices A & B. 2) DLEP Applicability Being VERY familiar with the DOCSIS (including EuroDOCSIS) cable modems, I am confident they will NOT be using DLEP. Those cable modem standards require a plain IP/Ethernet user interface. Further, while cable modems do support varying data rates, the data rates for a cable modem are **provisioned** from a centralized provisioned system. So DLEP really is not-applicable to a cable modem system. Separately, given the huge installed base of DSL systems and WiFI/802.11 systems, I doubt that very many of the already deployed DSL systems or WiFi/802.11 systems will be upgraded to implement DLEP. DLEP=E2=80=99s likely deployment base consists of IP/Ethernet-enabled radios that are not already widely deployed as of the date that the DLEP specification is published =E2=80=94 plus maybe some of the IP/Ethernet radios that are using PPPoE extensions at present. Requested Action: Please remove the mention of cable modems. =20 DLEP really is not applicable to cable modems, which=20 have a widely deployed set of inter-related standards (not including PPPoE and not likely to include DLEP). Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:44:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45B091B2D2F for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:44:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O4LinjgJdAxQ for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 032041B2DCC for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:44:04 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: RJ Atkinson , "manet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations Thread-Index: AQHQvY5EeFq5JHL3iU+8WYwT1RE0Cp3ZysXw Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:44:03 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:44:31 -0000 Q29sbGFwc2luZyB0d28gc2V0cyBvZiBjb21tZW50cyBpbnRvIG9uZS4gIFNvcnJ5IGZvciB0aGUg dG9wLXBvc3QgYnV0IG15IE91dGxvb2sgaGF0ZXMgaW5saW5lIGNvbW1lbnRzLg0KDQpJIGFtIGN1 cnJlbnRseSBpbiBmYXZvdXIgb2YgVExTLCBzdW1tYXJpemVkIGFzOg0KDQoxKSBUTFMgUkVDT01N RU5ERUQgdG8gaW1wbGVtZW50Lg0KMikgVExTIE9QVElPTkFMIHRvIHVzZSwgYnV0IFJFQ09NTUVO REVEIG9uIHJvdXRhYmxlIHN1Ym5ldHMuDQoNCldpdGggc3VpdGFibGUgdGV4dCBjb25jZXJuaW5n IGxpbmstbG9jYWwgc3VibmV0cyBldGMsIGFzIG1lbnRpb25lZCBieSBvdGhlcnMuDQoNCkkgZG9u J3Qgc2VlIHRoZSBuZWVkIGZvciBEVExTIG9uIFVEUCwgYnV0IGFncmVlIHRoYXQgc29tZSBleHBs aWNpdCB0ZXh0IG5lZWRzIHRvIGJlIGluY2x1ZGVkIGV4cGxhaW5pbmcgd2h5IChzZWUgbXkgcHJl dmlvdXMgZW1haWwpLg0KDQpCdXQgdGhhdCByYWlzZXMgYSBxdWVzdGlvbjogaG93IGRvZXMgYW4g aW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24gdGhhdCBoYXMgZGlzY292ZXJlZCBhIERMRVAgcGVlciBrbm93IHdoZXRo ZXIgdG8gdXNlIFRMUyBvciBub3Q/ICBQb3RlbnRpYWwgc29sdXRpb25zIGFyZToNCg0KMSkgMiBw 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[108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q68sm11479362qgd.42.2015.07.13.12.45.07 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:45:07 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:45:06 -0400 To: MANET IETF Message-Id: <23DEC22E-CE1D-4076-989C-A012579337CE@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Timers X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:45:10 -0000 Section 2, pages 8-9, have a discussion of timers, which are optional. =20 I think the current text is likely to lead to non-interoperability between implementations=20 that use timers and those that don=E2=80=99t support timers. =20 Requested Actions: Make implementation and use of the DLEP timers mandatory. =E2=80=9CMUST=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D. Add clearer discussion of DLEP Timers, the correct behavior, and put that into its own sub-section so that it is easy to locate by a naive reader who has not participated in the WG but has been handed an RFC and told to implement DLEP in a radio/router product. Yours, Ran =09= From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:49:30 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75D81B2DDA for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:49:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1NTFK1FN4bf7 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F6C31B2DCD for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:49:03 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: RJ Atkinson , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text Thread-Index: AQHQvaPiHNpjv3dYxUWQD7zFXH/9sJ3Zzktw Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:49:02 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:49:29 -0000 UmFuLA0KDQpJJ20gaGFwcHkgdG8gcmVtb3ZlIHJlZmVyZW5jZXMgdG8gY2FibGUgbW9kZW1zLiAg WW91IG1ha2UgZ29vZCBwb2ludHMuIERMRVAgaXMgcmFkaW9zIGFuZCBzYXQtbW9kZW1zIGluIHJl YWxpdHkuDQoNCkknbGwgYWRkcmVzcyB5b3VyIG90aGVyIGNvbmNlcm5zIHdoZW4gSSBnZXQgYmFj ayB0byB0aGUgb2ZmaWNlLg0KDQpSaWNrDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpG cm9tOiBtYW5ldCBbbWFpbHRvOm1hbmV0LWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmddIE9uIEJlaGFsZiBPZiBS SiBBdGtpbnNvbg0KU2VudDogMTMgSnVseSAyMDE1IDIwOjQxDQpUbzogTUFORVQgSUVURg0KU3Vi amVjdDogW21hbmV0XSBETEVQLTE1OiBJbnRyb2R1Y3RvcnkgdGV4dA0KDQoNCjEpIFJlYWRhYmls aXR5IG9mIERMRVAgU3BlY2lmaWNhdGlvbg0KDQpJIGZpbmQgaXQgb2RkIHRoYXQgc29tZSBvZiB0 aGUgZGlhZ3JhbXMgbmVlZGVkIHRvIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhlIERMRVAgQ29uY2VwdCBvZiBPcGVy YXRpb25zIGFyZSBidXJpZWQgaW4gQXBwZW5kaXggQSBhbmQgQXBwZW5kaXggQi4NCg0KSSB3b3Vs ZCBmaW5kIHRoZSBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIG11Y2ggbW9yZSByZWFkYWJsZSBpZiBhIGRpc3RpbmN0 IOKAnENvbmNlcHQgb2YgT3BlcmF0aW9uc+KAnSBzdWItc2VjdGlvbiB3ZXJlIGNyZWF0ZWQgb3V0 IG9mIHNvbWUgZXhpc3RpbmcgdGV4dCBpbiAxLjAgcGx1cyBBcHBlbmRpY2VzIEEgJiBCLg0KDQoN CjFBKSBJIHdvdWxkIHN1Z2dlc3QgdGhhdCB0aGUgZXhpc3RpbmcgMS4wIHRleHQgYmUgcmV0YWlu ZWQsDQogIGJ1dCB0aGF0IDEuMCBlbmQgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIHBocmFzZSDigJzigKZkYXRhIGxvc3Mg YW5kIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwNCiAgcmV0cmFuc21pc3Npb25zIG9uIHRoZSBsaW5rLuKAnQ0KDQoxQikg VGhlIHJlbWFpbmluZyB0ZXh0IGZyb20gdGhlIGN1cnJlbnQgMS4wIHNob3VsZCBtb3ZlIGludG8N CiAgICBhIG5ldyBzdWItc2VjdGlvbjoNCgkiMS4xICBDb25jZXB0IG9mIE9wZXJhdGlvbnPigJ0N Cg0KMUMpICBUaGlzIG5ldyBzdWJzZWN0aW9uIHdvdWxkIGFsc28gaW5jbHVkZSB0aGUgdGV4dCAo YW5kDQogICAgIGNydWNpYWxseSB0aGUgZGlhZ3JhbXMpIGZyb20gY3VycmVudCBBcHBlbmRpY2Vz IEEgJiBCLg0KDQoNCjIpIERMRVAgQXBwbGljYWJpbGl0eQ0KDQpCZWluZyBWRVJZIGZhbWlsaWFy IHdpdGggdGhlIERPQ1NJUyAoaW5jbHVkaW5nIEV1cm9ET0NTSVMpIGNhYmxlIG1vZGVtcywgSSBh bSBjb25maWRlbnQgdGhleSB3aWxsIE5PVCBiZSB1c2luZyBETEVQLiAgVGhvc2UgY2FibGUgbW9k ZW0gc3RhbmRhcmRzIHJlcXVpcmUgYSBwbGFpbiBJUC9FdGhlcm5ldCB1c2VyIGludGVyZmFjZS4N CkZ1cnRoZXIsIHdoaWxlIGNhYmxlIG1vZGVtcyBkbyBzdXBwb3J0IHZhcnlpbmcgZGF0YSByYXRl cywgdGhlIGRhdGEgcmF0ZXMgZm9yIGEgY2FibGUgbW9kZW0gYXJlICoqcHJvdmlzaW9uZWQqKiBm cm9tIGEgY2VudHJhbGl6ZWQgcHJvdmlzaW9uZWQgc3lzdGVtLiAgU28gRExFUCByZWFsbHkgaXMg bm90LWFwcGxpY2FibGUgdG8gYSBjYWJsZSBtb2RlbSBzeXN0ZW0uDQoNClNlcGFyYXRlbHksIGdp dmVuIHRoZSBodWdlIGluc3RhbGxlZCBiYXNlIG9mIERTTCBzeXN0ZW1zIGFuZCBXaUZJLzgwMi4x MSBzeXN0ZW1zLCBJIGRvdWJ0IHRoYXQgdmVyeSBtYW55IG9mIHRoZSBhbHJlYWR5IGRlcGxveWVk IERTTCBzeXN0ZW1zIG9yIFdpRmkvODAyLjExIHN5c3RlbXMgd2lsbCBiZSB1cGdyYWRlZCB0byBp bXBsZW1lbnQgRExFUC4NCg0KRExFUOKAmXMgbGlrZWx5IGRlcGxveW1lbnQgYmFzZSBjb25zaXN0 cyBvZiBJUC9FdGhlcm5ldC1lbmFibGVkIHJhZGlvcyB0aGF0IGFyZSBub3QgYWxyZWFkeSB3aWRl bHkgZGVwbG95ZWQgYXMgb2YgdGhlIGRhdGUgdGhhdCB0aGUgRExFUCBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uIGlz IHB1Ymxpc2hlZCDigJQgcGx1cyBtYXliZSBzb21lIG9mIHRoZSBJUC9FdGhlcm5ldCByYWRpb3Mg dGhhdCBhcmUgdXNpbmcgUFBQb0UgZXh0ZW5zaW9ucyBhdCBwcmVzZW50Lg0KDQpSZXF1ZXN0ZWQg QWN0aW9uOg0KDQoJUGxlYXNlIHJlbW92ZSB0aGUgbWVudGlvbiBvZiBjYWJsZSBtb2RlbXMuICAN Cg0KCURMRVAgcmVhbGx5IGlzIG5vdCBhcHBsaWNhYmxlIHRvIGNhYmxlIG1vZGVtcywgd2hpY2gg DQoJaGF2ZSBhIHdpZGVseSBkZXBsb3llZCBzZXQgb2YgaW50ZXItcmVsYXRlZCBzdGFuZGFyZHMN Cgkobm90IGluY2x1ZGluZyBQUFBvRSBhbmQgbm90IGxpa2VseSB0byBpbmNsdWRlIERMRVApLg0K DQpZb3VycywNCg0KUmFuDQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fDQptYW5ldCBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCm1hbmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRwczovL3d3 dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL21hbmV0DQo= From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:54:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B311B2DDB for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0s39zzzJi9uD for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F18581B2DD5 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgxm20 with SMTP id m20so121334457wgx.3 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=G7L6QdoticU1D+EDRRd7ez3XvqqnF+QH/ktw8F2LOj8=; b=PbQm+Eww2Aga62iK94ZAJwUC8hPiIn8uJfdzVOyN/ei8mGhvN45t6vEiy2Vdk1NrvU lTc0IdMnzIYHUWU9NAT66QHl7qc/iMtFDnYNKeNt3mIbEj5o8MVjeJoUwrA7k3GsIcyq RIYQOFzLpAEGFyhTohojDws3qF9YDP08Fpac2xXa8WeSU7IofWBsqdwjaiLnw/p+ZT+e vsE6+HvKoKBqKjVhOYx8ry3XfQno0Z7IbsEe1H2BVoeQ8Q6z1ISAxuYlijSIlE22dN3h Kh6Uz8vItVrQIWfly7kvQpOX5ruTJ5Znf1a9iBjOGxzmnAQcPLfiHCEOn81FjUEkUEkl yX8g== X-Received: by 10.194.203.3 with SMTP id km3mr66061819wjc.114.1436817256742; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:53:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 21:53:47 +0200 Message-ID: To: Rick Taylor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:54:19 -0000 On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Rick Taylor wrote: > Collapsing two sets of comments into one. Sorry for the top-post but my Outlook hates inline comments. > > I am currently in favour of TLS, summarized as: > > 1) TLS RECOMMENDED to implement. > 2) TLS OPTIONAL to use, but RECOMMENDED on routable subnets. > > With suitable text concerning link-local subnets etc, as mentioned by others. > > I don't see the need for DTLS on UDP, but agree that some explicit text needs to be included explaining why (see my previous email). Would faking a Peer Offer be a problem? > But that raises a question: how does an implementation that has discovered a DLEP peer know whether to use TLS or not? Potential solutions are: > > 1) 2 ports, just like HTTP/HTTPS? > 2) Extension Id - "I am willing to do TLS"? > 3) Attempt TLS then fall back to not TLS? > 4) New Data Item for discovery: 'TLS_Cipher_Suite'? > > Opinions please? ( I favour option 4 ) 1) would work, but I think IANA might be unhappy with us. 2) doesn't work, because we only learn about the other extensions after the TCP session is active. 3) sounds like a "fuzzing attack" against non-TLS DLEP implementations because they will get the (D)TLS data. 4) without DTLS it would be trivial to do a downgrade attack by removing the cipher suite TLV. Henning From nobody Mon Jul 13 12:58:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8724C1B2DEF for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cI2X1BHhsGoJ for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x233.google.com (mail-qg0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF35B1B2DCD for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qgef3 with SMTP id f3so111854731qge.0 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=LeeKZu6IxkS/qqOIHLdKfcyCiwimVA4CgAUla643vd4=; b=reYLQlDXarnUkxBTEvoZHfHlRYfp4aZNQxJSzLwsD4ohiQyyAghfboAbLQPvxfSGMB 2iKrinbUoBi26IZVfALzaiBM+VAT6aDoLvQDl6tjLzTlMMoclBM7tum4rzoguAXXZNKG P/a6aSZ/DHmk1f2p8X4v7fCG+3EpK1YLcrI/xW4fbLr3VK1iU2telyKkGd/hiFCzujrh NnnY3EWJxMHMw8z3v0n3cfjwMNCYU+/01DbOBcRRIkjlMBDKV7SpTEcCRz2UXOeZNG9S gQNSCXmghA1DIlpgzjxI3bJ87MCZ/wp4fR3scBDeBVnbtRNvPLMTpdZUl/iMGOu+39r4 FG8A== X-Received: by 10.55.52.12 with SMTP id b12mr56512253qka.22.1436817516066; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 128sm11342399qht.11.2015.07.13.12.58.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 12:58:35 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 15:58:34 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <97FE9EF3-F8CF-4A1C-8271-8790938CE156@gmail.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 19:58:38 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2015, at 15:44 , Rick Taylor = wrote: >=20 > Collapsing two sets of comments into one. Sorry for the top-post but = my Outlook hates inline comments. >=20 > I am currently in favour of TLS, summarized as: >=20 > 1) TLS RECOMMENDED to implement. > 2) TLS OPTIONAL to use, but RECOMMENDED on routable subnets. ASIDE:=20 - Do you believe that DLEP/TCP/IP should work across routable subnets = ? > With suitable text concerning link-local subnets etc, as mentioned by = others. =46rom my own perspective, this =E2=80=9Csuitable text=E2=80=9D would = need to have many =E2=80=9CMUST ONLY=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CMUST NOT=E2=80=9D items to = force that constraint, as outlined previously. > I don't see the need for DTLS on UDP, but agree that some explicit = text > needs to be included explaining why (see my previous email). >=20 > But that raises a question: how does an implementation that has = discovered a DLEP peer know whether to use TLS or not? Potential = solutions are: >=20 > 1) 2 ports, just like HTTP/HTTPS? > 2) Extension Id - "I am willing to do TLS"? > 3) Attempt TLS then fall back to not TLS? > 4) New Data Item for discovery: 'TLS_Cipher_Suite'? >=20 > Opinions please? ( I favour option 4 ) I don=E2=80=99t think (4) will work with (D)TLS. (D)TLS includes TLS version negotiation, TLS cipher-suite agreement, endpoint authentication, and TLS session key generation all within=20 the existing (D)TLS protocol specifications. About (1), I think that the use of 2 ports for 1 service is disliked at present, partly due to complexity and partly because it burns more transport-layer port numbers. One of the WG Chairs=20 or a document author might want to ask for the current recommended=20 IETF practice in this area. My guess is that the current recommended approach might be to reuse the "STARTTLS=E2=80=9D technique specified for use with IMAP4, POP3, SMTP, XMPP, LDAP, and NNTP. I=E2=80=99m not certain.=20 Anyway, there is a reasonable Wikipedia page on this approach: "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STARTTLS=E2=80=9D The =E2=80=9CSTARTTLS=E2=80=9D approach would imply adding new text to = DLEP-15++,=20 probably at least in Section 1.1 and also in Section 5. Yours, Ran From nobody Mon Jul 13 13:03:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B8421B2DF2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:03:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8IW18zI-_MqZ for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x234.google.com (mail-qg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88B3A1B2DDC for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qget71 with SMTP id t71so161699217qge.2 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:03:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=EZWksDTQQjVFNEGaq1Zp0+tnfjePSWXNOHoqxFBi4eg=; b=HLkNb70vKBN3joBmxcY92Fg1R5j2cSntBNboFrbaWX/qRIWZ4EHulE92m9vRtv+Wqg BZ+0ikBzlu3aQwYrNvS9z6dXHmRc5HcUQyge1y9E5rOrT9XO0WYZQ7zhqZEdQpqLdYEM IsxNOAv9/qCmQTxcfOJuq9imQyDf56+FnJCdgm62hYd7BmphYtMogxffgT9y6Drd8XdQ vmuRlLCqLkWabjeiqZOpi8hDfDJmWRS2A179Bf4LlH4SLtEqW+Ob9vzmOmEQSFPA30+I 56aDBdVV6vGnlvfLeyLJxjRzgMaUGzk/DvcxZx1CBBTq0xnsqrwSf5sy39m9P9UfcJ7l yKSA== X-Received: by 10.140.29.55 with SMTP id a52mr54342223qga.25.1436817787865; Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o25sm11201965qkh.25.2015.07.13.13.03.07 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jul 2015 13:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 16:03:06 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2015 20:03:10 -0000 > On 13 Jul 2015, at 15:53 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Rick Taylor > wrote: >> Collapsing two sets of comments into one. Sorry for the top-post but = my Outlook hates inline comments. >>=20 >> I am currently in favour of TLS, summarized as: >>=20 >> 1) TLS RECOMMENDED to implement. >> 2) TLS OPTIONAL to use, but RECOMMENDED on routable subnets. >>=20 >> With suitable text concerning link-local subnets etc, as mentioned by = others. >>=20 >> I don't see the need for DTLS on UDP, but agree that some explicit = text needs to be included explaining why (see my previous email). >=20 > Would faking a Peer Offer be a problem? Potentially. =20 At a bare minimum, it would be a potential denial-of-service attack=20 that would consume (possibly scarce) resources on the victim. It is worth documenting easily-executed DoS attacks =E2=80=94 especially if one also can document a mitigation that implementers should use. Yours, Ran From nobody Tue Jul 14 01:10:32 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296B51A9050 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 01:10:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t-jRayahHfDj for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 01:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com (mail-wg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 853031A9055 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 01:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgmn9 with SMTP id n9so2224832wgm.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 01:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PsYbpeCv/6MpNXG2ATA3OQTENefjCTl3fGnRV89CUsc=; b=rpOuivgyNXwTLfThgJH5S+mB2Fu1rBR9QG5A/hISD2aayXgJilSiktl2Kv+eYkW/8O D/JkAtJ0yfuwcPCFtBMu4MiZDJddphudBaPPxiT7Z3Ifhk6qksKwWL7CG7yPnqksDKdy CnaD6dc24q7ZxMhSodJl8wgxb0mytBmqHDiHgprmFLWV3hCjAqkxilIEY2ONgpiKYeje xge7xs8fDrOw/vuF0jUyzSfpkGIfY07IF7kEMIrOmUSgihNeMOiyC26JgOsSewFwheC7 LjRfzu2xhfrg8Z7UidnT952c0shA0wn7OIgSlHr+DReVmrevWu4oJtmbhbv40VzJAV+s c/7Q== X-Received: by 10.180.88.99 with SMTP id bf3mr31352733wib.75.1436861428343; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 01:10:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 01:09:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <23DEC22E-CE1D-4076-989C-A012579337CE@gmail.com> References: <23DEC22E-CE1D-4076-989C-A012579337CE@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:09:58 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Timers X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 08:10:31 -0000 Hi, are you talking about the Heartbeat Timer or the Link Characteristics Response Timer? (or both?) Henning Rogge On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:45 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > > Section 2, pages 8-9, have a discussion of timers, > which are optional. > > I think the current text is likely to lead to > non-interoperability between implementations > that use timers and those that don=E2=80=99t support > timers. > > > Requested Actions: > Make implementation and use of the DLEP timers > mandatory. =E2=80=9CMUST=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2= =80=9D or =E2=80=9CMAY=E2=80=9D. > > Add clearer discussion of DLEP Timers, the correct > behavior, and put that into its own sub-section > so that it is easy to locate by a naive reader > who has not participated in the WG but has been > handed an RFC and told to implement DLEP in a > radio/router product. > > > Yours, > > Ran > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet From nobody Tue Jul 14 02:01:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D03001A90D8 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:01:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WfHvF15JHYDz for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 455391A90D2 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:00:44 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: RJ Atkinson , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations Thread-Index: AQHQvY5EeFq5JHL3iU+8WYwT1RE0Cg== Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:00:43 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:01:11 -0000 On 13/07/15 21:03, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A= >=0A= >> On 13 Jul 2015, at 15:53 , Henning Rogge wrote:=0A= >>=0A= >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Rick Taylor=0A= >> wrote:=0A= >>> Collapsing two sets of comments into one. Sorry for the top-post but m= y Outlook hates inline comments.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> I am currently in favour of TLS, summarized as:=0A= >>>=0A= >>> 1) TLS RECOMMENDED to implement.=0A= >>> 2) TLS OPTIONAL to use, but RECOMMENDED on routable subnets.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> With suitable text concerning link-local subnets etc, as mentioned by o= thers.=0A= >>>=0A= >>> I don't see the need for DTLS on UDP, but agree that some explicit text= needs to be included explaining why (see my previous email).=0A= >>=0A= >> Would faking a Peer Offer be a problem?=0A= >=0A= > Potentially.=0A= >=0A= > At a bare minimum, it would be a potential denial-of-service attack=0A= > that would consume (possibly scarce) resources on the victim. It=0A= > is worth documenting easily-executed DoS attacks =97 especially if=0A= > one also can document a mitigation that implementers should use.=0A= >=0A= =0A= I can see the need for some text in the security section stating that a =0A= modem receiving multiple repeated Peer_Discovery signals should probably = =0A= limit the amount of listening sockets it creates and perhaps blacklist =0A= the source of the signals if a valid connection is not used, but adding =0A= DTLS to the mix doesn't seem to add anything to me.=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= From nobody Tue Jul 14 02:29:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78E251A9118 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:29:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nxrD6xFhYFAA for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x229.google.com (mail-wi0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B2E81A911B for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wiga1 with SMTP id a1so93574845wig.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:29:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=KbkrLrfXHvEpkmtNHE28vxllRvDY13rpZSPJsT9eg9U=; b=tkJ8dE3ln5hceHxdz+ST/jFZRZJ+jelU4wwdgn6fAtAeuub1GYr7sSbK7NUmnG7rXK 80SKpJqauZYu3xf1PBeod97cEycztvN+6hNwX3TU9Q+VxpvonLDafI9jkZCY1kicFHkr HtnMdtaL861NSAtG+8z6HbEuP6vF1FyJlttbqY4VqfnWv7aJt9knqZK+lGnHhpSZS/l8 RT2oi8o2uKv728jBx1hJt5Tf7aHgwdbUPFxSBDe3qFQBSoXuqYlQEWPPb203lU1Bce0H f00ySZHTu0Y7BLkuebWmkQWoP7QTF8uZYmdyq2PYOZDkDSyeS3gImAbdzYrCMLm8xnaJ tH8w== X-Received: by 10.194.250.69 with SMTP id za5mr40772865wjc.90.1436866149301; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:29:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 02:28:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:28:39 +0200 Message-ID: To: Rick Taylor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF , RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:29:18 -0000 > I can see the need for some text in the security section stating that a > modem receiving multiple repeated Peer_Discovery signals should probably > limit the amount of listening sockets it creates and perhaps blacklist > the source of the signals if a valid connection is not used, but adding > DTLS to the mix doesn't seem to add anything to me. I think (for the radio side) it is even easier. You get the Peer_Discovery multicast from the router... you answer with a Peer_Offer UDP... and then forget about the whole thing. When you get an incoming TCP connection for the server port on the radio the radio starts building up a session, based on the Peer_Initialization content. No need to build up a session when you get the Peer_Discovery. The router does also only need to allocate resources for a session when it opens the TCP connection to the radios server port. No session necessary when sending out Peer_Discovery. The only danger with (routed/non-linklocal) Peer_Offers I see is that you might be able to trick the router to open its DLEP session to a different TCP socket... which might be a way to start a man-in-the-middle attack. Henning Rogge From nobody Tue Jul 14 05:52:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 883741AC7E7 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 05:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 83Y0av9Bbelb for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 05:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22e.google.com (mail-qk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0269F1AC529 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 05:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdl129 with SMTP id l129so5339092qkd.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 05:52:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=fYrCAYfzcycTuIXEbYTW/xcZt6fQuTWHDL5sEut2Gvs=; b=OIFw1HKQbW3KI3uYB2e8NP37WnVlo85HbRKmqf4YfiAIR0BBqiURnXxyAj0hrHorw5 aYWDjrNIitKYGYYXybRCA55I0tsAhpJz0LHxBN0DQo6An6YVyuIlRwg5HMedZx08FrLt h0RxmDDSKjscPqw3KwUNPwdu+DO7wQ9Yjr9himCHTq7RDidZ8yjcLxbLSMa0yjCXP496 3JDSl6df4AknwcPhc2LyGdiEEJ2R9hocTO98LLnVFn8q+ZAMYCvcZ4PjUe6AvtUuj1Kl FydE/NWSa5C4GlhFH4uibH8YJz6m2ZhxTnNKWXeYHqtJMpKeCsr7GIeLbJX3P1M8DhmX el0Q== X-Received: by 10.140.20.204 with SMTP id 70mr19513842qgj.26.1436878336195; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 05:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k85sm395185qhk.39.2015.07.14.05.52.15 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 05:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 08:52:14 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <23DEC22E-CE1D-4076-989C-A012579337CE@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Timers X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:52:18 -0000 > On 14 Jul 2015, at 04:09 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > are you talking about the Heartbeat Timer > or the Link Characteristics Response Timer? >=20 > (or both?) My comment was intended to be generic -=20 so it applies for all timers in DLEP. My initial focus was the Heartbeat Timer, but the same prospective interoperability (e.g. unexpected results/behavior) issue=20 applies to any timer where one side implements the timer and the other side doesn=E2=80=99t. It is entirely possible that this is merely a matter of some additional text explaining what happens in such cases and why those outcomes are not problematic. Thanks, Ran From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:02:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095531ACC87 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:02:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1GQpWUtZePm6 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3E191ACC83 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkbp125 with SMTP id p125so5505423qkb.2 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:02:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=y/6qhcvMp0/OyInG2r+EeuPHJidqukks5s0Y9nObr+I=; b=AMIHo5VvRGGEGXuNNAkDgHww6zTevROZb+qAZK5oawrbcoAQ2slvtC5RqbU/d11UWU 61iFr+ELqfcs4l5vpCcU+u+TEHDVuKdydqDdA4+WES+j5gyofIhfTahhXCNJlM+JPcV+ 0QSv2GpWfUw3JEoIMeULxq6h/u+jSk+e2fKnwztGlScC1mrQM6VvyLKoW3Al8e6ZAuNm zl8h/dCYSQbPesrH/F0oxrqGNICWOHJSMs8W8Nhue0S0rsGekVHCRZgfVV5Yv4oVfVaR TvXYOiusAOVhi73OsyM5KDp67b0/Z5ZtUM92ZWpMVHWm8BnzUjRyYBGQabPozyEJ1H/c JJbA== X-Received: by 10.55.31.40 with SMTP id f40mr31100312qkf.18.1436878961894; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q22sm413486qkh.35.2015.07.14.06.02.41 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:02:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:02:40 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:02:44 -0000 > On 14 Jul 2015, at 05:28 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 >> I can see the need for some text in the security section stating that = a >> modem receiving multiple repeated Peer_Discovery signals should = probably >> limit the amount of listening sockets it creates and perhaps = blacklist >> the source of the signals if a valid connection is not used, but = adding >> DTLS to the mix doesn't seem to add anything to me. >=20 > I think (for the radio side) it is even easier. >=20 > You get the Peer_Discovery multicast from the router... you answer > with a Peer_Offer UDP... and then forget about the whole thing. >=20 > When you get an incoming TCP connection for the server port on the > radio the radio starts building up a session, based on the > Peer_Initialization content. >=20 > No need to build up a session when you get the Peer_Discovery. >=20 >=20 > The router does also only need to allocate resources for a session > when it opens the TCP connection to the radios server port. No session > necessary when sending out Peer_Discovery. All of the above is good implementation advice that probably ought=20 to be copied both (a) into the specific DLEP-15++ subsections on=20 (i) receiving Peer_Discovery via UDP multicast,=20 (ii) receiving Peer_Offer via UDP,=20 & (iii) how the DLEP TCP session is created and initialised, AND also (b) into the =E2=80=9CSecurity Considerations=E2=80=9D section. > The only danger with (routed/non-linklocal) Peer_Offers I see is that > you might be able to trick the router to open its DLEP session to a > different TCP socket... which might be a way to start a > man-in-the-middle attack. Yes. It seems to me that this discussion has (inadvertently, perhaps) raised the question of whether the WG-as-a-whole would like to constrain DLEP implementations to only use non-routable link-local IP address types. I=E2=80=99ll go start a thread on that question in a moment. Yours, Ran= From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:25:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26EFD1ACD13 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:25:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oEPZvgRy7YrD for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FE401ACD11 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkbp125 with SMTP id p125so5991516qkb.2 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:25:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=aNLmjL+J0FbVMG20CGKmnmPSa2xFRWDidj/zfDlcKTc=; b=Tg0vMYhiwE1Lt6BOSJrOwje6XFG/PZBTfCa8Qdnxzqer2a5Q2QEHtnp56CWx7JO74Q rld7enxFSTq9v7ULPwUE8KtltOtTAd0PvziVwMFFj1rixy1kQBL09B72agnKg0TSQjRG +W1DlPdokfMyvYFnS4eQfdGoAYdFf/Raz2ghBr4mpwxY073eCNK6O2qOhh3aTQsSNKnu y1FS82kBi+Wp41PlvqH1cWE5IPhKus1NsXsvHogWontGmZ0EF6Wz1TnECfBBltIZNYYY bWmX73oOGMog/xInLVm6FF/uuF4y1xI+ncp9smAjDKd9zLI3ATgsRuK+cpxSL1fV1NxU D72g== X-Received: by 10.140.145.207 with SMTP id 198mr65278021qhr.45.1436880321986; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 195sm448850qhr.13.2015.07.14.06.25.21 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:25:20 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> To: Ran Atkinson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: IANA Considerations (IP multicast addressing) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:25:24 -0000 ISSUE: In re-reading sub-section 12.8 on DLEP Multicast Addressing within "IANA Considerations=E2=80=9D, there seem to be 2 issues. (A) Existing text does not specify which multicast address block the allocation ought to come from. =46rom list discussion, and from similar existing practice (e.g. OSPFv2, RIPv2), it seems clear=20 that a link-local/non-routed multicast address is desired, but the DLEP-15 text is not clear. (B) Existing text is ambiguous and does not clarify whether an IPv4 address, and IPv6 address, or both is being requested. =46rom the context of the rest of DLEP-15, it seems clear that both are needed. Requested Action: Update DLEP-15++, Section 12.8, to specifically ask that the DLEP Multicast address come from the IPv4 Local Network Control Block. Also, clarify that DLEP will need both 1 IPv4 multicast address and 1 IPv6 multicast address. Candidate New Text for 12.8: It is requested that IANA allocate 1 IPv4 multicast address from the IPv4 Local Network Control Block (i.e. 224.0.0.0/24) for DLEP use. It also is requested that IANA allocate 1 permanent IPv6 multicast address from the IPv6 Link-Local Scope Multicast Address Block for DLEP use. The procedure described in Section 4.1 of RFC-3307 appears to be relevant to this request. Yours, Ran Atkinson From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:29:22 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DEB51ACD22 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:29:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LBQbr-6S62t3 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09C901ACD21 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcl188 with SMTP id l188so6099515qkc.1 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:29:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=c2BSLZmtTqw9xZVeE7ufq0Pe4A+MvNFP8XduzzvHmsg=; b=TyZoRnaghn/+JMMXx/YZbTVwaVdqY/5sQpf244+zpEgTp20zEPkqe2UZnV/YnL2yMD vAH4nlyZsGpQd9aRRR8xy2lRFnDRBzl2BlV2guIILXsDASliaAZwt+figzCCqCVorjta WSx6uW0SDmsLePYqPx9ljbsgIWvoTiOzj1Vmwnk1BgVvDzRN+4QuFXf5DjZYQ8VlodKN s/bRCVlSyHd8kB73Yq0DXFcQhc0fmhw7SAUFNm7E/laCO/ghyL4nk92MyFP0SsHOd/2D i0gTMUpeCijt99PcypW2k5pCFnu7/WUz/iLGHe9dBOA4DJY2bejAkt7bjT6CQUT9lGz6 p9yg== X-Received: by 10.140.164.147 with SMTP id k141mr65435947qhk.62.1436880558345; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a7sm463307qka.0.2015.07.14.06.29.17 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:29:16 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0577356D-24CC-45CD-9438-4BD84E025B63@gmail.com> References: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: IANA Considerations (Well Known Ports) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:29:20 -0000 ISSUE: DLEP-15, Section 12.7, requests that IANA allocate a well-known port for DLEP use. The current request is not a sufficiently clear/precise. DLEP needs to have both a UDP and TCP port allocated,=20 but DLEP does not use SCTP and so does not require an SCTP port. Requested Action: The text in Section 12.7 should be edited for clarity. Candidate New Text: =E2=80=9CIt is requested that IANA allocate DLEP a well-known TCP port and also a well-known UDP port. Ideally, these port numbers will be the same. Since DLEP does not use SCTP, an SCTP port need not be allocated.=E2=80=9D Yours, Ran From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:32:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AEB1ACD30 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dOr9DEUWsBQ4 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C77ED1ACD2E for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widjy10 with SMTP id jy10so99596605wid.1 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:32:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6+L4MxHpVplK+QQEiweexBr7pesGV9LVI8Fe9KDg7FA=; b=k+iomIFKy+22F+hg15Ucl+cwCxg9sySCXBRRRUMiRrz9ZZIzcV0fgKusbuIiR8YbEC wa0b3eCa9+NuUJVM3/39kVX3DG9Xdgg24odltt3sGlZohjG7tLdWVBHYxO6Rt1QhYwo6 tqAZ3ah35Lz8VITomc3Zka8NSGD0qW0z5IVgytP4Jsy7BWVQROEXKkSnvTKB1aoz5LMu FZo77qBf1MOfSA2Ae67aGzX1SN7YAUN5CES6UDdtYp3AegWbp/Od3jgRzOxz2YhkyoZb NY6tZFg9rY+Zz8D0XJUcPzDD4Kr6t5G3TWwDL9adVHF6wkzBxoj2NeD1gVlALEGoNK1w YTuA== X-Received: by 10.194.203.3 with SMTP id km3mr73324600wjc.114.1436880731533; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:32:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:31:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0577356D-24CC-45CD-9438-4BD84E025B63@gmail.com> References: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> <0577356D-24CC-45CD-9438-4BD84E025B63@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:31:42 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: IANA Considerations (Well Known Ports) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:32:14 -0000 Hi, I don't think DLEP needs a well known TCP port, because it tells its local TCP-port over UDP to the other side. So all we need is a well known UDP port on the radio to receive the routers UDP multicast. The router needs no well known port at all. Henning Rogge On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 3:29 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > > ISSUE: > DLEP-15, Section 12.7, requests that IANA allocate a > well-known port for DLEP use. > > The current request is not a sufficiently clear/precise. > DLEP needs to have both a UDP and TCP port allocated, > but DLEP does not use SCTP and so does not require an SCTP port. > > > Requested Action: > > The text in Section 12.7 should be edited for clarity. > > Candidate New Text: > > =E2=80=9CIt is requested that IANA allocate DLEP a well-known > TCP port and also a well-known UDP port. Ideally, > these port numbers will be the same. Since DLEP does > not use SCTP, an SCTP port need not be allocated.=E2=80=9D > > Yours, > > Ran > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:49:33 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF5BF1ACD3A for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DYm4a5-AaTkO for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22a.google.com (mail-qk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E19B1AC82C for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdv3 with SMTP id v3so6497126qkd.3 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:49:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Gk3crRwcClMbXPuAS2tRxUfRQ1Xfjaaz98Bn0qwOqCE=; b=s+Ge7wIeCAyYkrvGxOCp5l+HhJY2CPTJiNRM6+7w85ScdjHLvF8rGs4mIkkJPaS8l3 c11118kCrQXoRhWmck8kkRGllL5EjI/bRT5M3MExmkGN+iBfiOrh+Jjt0RqZr8nDWTMQ vLQsbfENyDc96vbSv7VLEHbZ0Omyb6zdPUNJMSsH3STY/kXOOg7r5Wx7dSvxTrZbPtRZ xkY0RUHyi+dJvJADx+1M8YAWGWYfg2+ErwPDiQ04H0DYkLz7rpF70wC9oaZX/7qiY93I NJGMKIRN/dx9rSM5go4zBIFEP7RpGd+vwzAeI/lpkiyV80ZdfugJdSW6+rRGupVyMlNg hFCA== X-Received: by 10.55.41.158 with SMTP id p30mr60353594qkp.16.1436881768925; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i91sm472091qgd.46.2015.07.14.06.49.28 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:49:27 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:49:31 -0000 > On 14 Jul 2015, at 09:05 , MATTY, Steven = wrote: >=20 > FWIW, I'm not in favour of mandating TLS or another security layer = either. I understand the sentence above. > Our environment may quite possibly preclude any such 3rd party > software from being present and would be a deal-breaker. =20 I do not understand the sentence above, because TLS is not=20 =E2=80=9C3rd party software=E2=80=9D any more than one=E2=80=99s = operating system=20 already might be. There are many implementations of TLS, so one need not use OpenSSL. OpenSSL was mentioned purely here only because=20 some implementers here are limiting themselves to open-source. Virtually all networking equipment suppliers ship a TLS implementation already integrated with the OS =E2=80=94 as do=20 virtually all operating system suppliers (specifically=20 including multiple high-assurance OSs) =E2=80=94 and this has been=20 true for at least 15 years. =20 An example of a high-assurance (IEC 61508, SIL 3; ISO/IEC 15408 EAL4+) operating system that includes TLS support is QNX. Other examples also exist. I understand that Airbus might have high-assurance requirements in some of its applications, but TLS is readily available inside existing high-assurance OSs. (NB: In many cases, the TLS implementation is called =E2=80=9CSSL=E2=80=9D= =20 in the supplied documentation. Legacy SSL, such as SSL 3.0, is known to be insecure. The IETF standards-track name for the =E2=80=9Cfixed=E2=80=9D versions of SSL is TLS, hence my use of TLS = in these discussions.) > RECOMMENDING a link-local address for peer discovery > and sessions suits me just fine I am not quite sure what that sentence means... If we merely =E2=80=9CRECOMMEND=E2=80=9D link-local, then the IETF = Security Area will correctly point out that use of global routable IP addressing is legal, and almost certainly will require that some mandatory-to-implement security mechanism=20 (e.g. TLS) be specified so that implementations have a decent chance of interoperating securely. On the other hand, if we =E2=80=9CREQUIRE=E2=80=9D link-local AND = PROHIBIT routable IP addressing, then the IETF Security Area likely will be OK with omitting a mandatory-to-implement security mechanism. > (IPv4 link-local address allocation headaches notwithstanding) :-) One needs IANA to allocate an IPv4 multicast address anyway, so the question in my mind is more about IPv4 unicast link-local. > However, I do appreciate that those in IESG have to think > about the bigger picture, and not just isolated, closed MANETs=E2=80=A6 The IETF repeatedly has been burned by expecting something to be used locally only (either single site or link-local), omitting adequate security, and then having to come back and patch some protocol to include security after a remote attack has appeared. >> The only danger with (routed/non-linklocal) Peer_Offers I see is that >> you might be able to trick the router to open its DLEP session to a >> different TCP socket... which might be a way to start a >> man-in-the-middle attack. >=20 > Yes, this is a good example of why link-local should be encouraged > (if not a stronger word) That gets to my question: Would you be OK with "MUST use only link-local addressing=E2=80=9D= and =E2=80=9CMUST NOT use routable addressing=E2=80=9D ?? Thanks, Ran From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:51:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4686C1ACD3A for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:51:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WyQ1V8aHVj4A for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECFBB1ACD32 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdl129 with SMTP id l129so6621951qkd.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=kjLn16BB+Colu2Xkqkpp5h9vlE2rksxA4UsoK74206k=; b=k7Rn/sVdxyncMLPGbWCCNsQCHCEoZY59fypUTzRbLmKdecI1h/YQigpQJdbNP76SUH pYmkk3MwwRxh/KnW9jnek0bAfAn0Hb7tpUITIvpVHR4gSIT5d/lCJM5gQ2SyOdvIOa7a tcfYPW6AxXL089aNem9rzxNTWvnrEiere0QNORHXmnaSecWsDvNXPjk42NEDYc4Gzs/6 mQFcdO9HeRarrEmr+twdkP41bZurPZd+zslRXrZNkcrQxJqOF/+UdYnTDb3VCMRDOFd7 6reY6ehJF0sEWbXSgBzy/69pm+Tj8psRbYEovsTg+9p9Y3vyTmjOJfL+XFXYIDMbkJAy 63Vg== X-Received: by 10.140.41.9 with SMTP id y9mr61152643qgy.28.1436881916290; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 20sm481057qkz.30.2015.07.14.06.51.55 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:51:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:51:54 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <38D1CE67-D391-4FAB-9CB9-E22467FE62E3@gmail.com> References: <1A923F15-18C7-43F7-BD0A-7CAB6A4353E8@gmail.com> <0577356D-24CC-45CD-9438-4BD84E025B63@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: IANA Considerations (Well Known Ports) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:51:58 -0000 > On 14 Jul 2015, at 09:31 , Henning Rogge wrote: > > Hi, > > I don't think DLEP needs a well known TCP port, because it tells its > local TCP-port over UDP to the other side. > > So all we need is a well known UDP port on the radio to receive the > routers UDP multicast. > > The router needs no well known port at all. OK. That clarification changes HOW DLEP-15, Section 12.7, would be edited, but a clarifying edit (e.g. well-known UDP port is requested, but DLEP does not need well-known TCP or SCTP ports) is still needed to the existing text. Thanks, Ran From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:54:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3251ACD4A for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5e98MgnbXt2 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 825AC1ACD49 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkbp125 with SMTP id p125so6608618qkb.2 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=+H6S8ZDN5SDixipx1uquoSvRdzLLjOMtJifq/UFF/oE=; b=fD1k0nGsV9uCrwIXexLy0gThjZRqPVANFGTp/KHOd6TPGfmAfqf3tqsx8yeG0jP7vL Kg0fqueuZT1PUylygBcxLkVoI62SJDz5HdrmAzrh4GaOxQcsDGqDCOEJr01KH7WTizys QgBqVCbTtObXDD58wWBZLOUAy2yJ920e0K4ffQob9/44h5yj5GhtZIcTcv+3Mo5t6mxD 9eqpCrpVTvvTjigve8X/wOegJCEfMhKPD/D/tAW9JR7ncz9rP0GDPMa+SJfxVo7no7Hu fR9HqF+fu7acsbFTAzrKk0Vk/AnmIFoFXjQNHJJJBoNXkba8EykNou1/jQThsE5B85+M QMGg== X-Received: by 10.140.96.230 with SMTP id k93mr60655011qge.7.1436882039895; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g19sm489911qkh.18.2015.07.14.06.53.59 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:53:59 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:53:58 -0400 To: MANET IETF Message-Id: <446B662E-E354-4C62-B415-C72762BD84B1@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Link-Local Addressing ONLY ?? X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:54:02 -0000 All, It seems to me that the discussion on the =E2=80=9CSecurity = Considerations=E2=80=9D thread has (inadvertently) raised the question of whether the WG-as-a-whole would like to constrain DLEP implementations=20 to only use non-routable link-local IP address types. This probably merits further discussion, so I=E2=80=99m creating a separate email thread for this topic. BACKGROUND: For IPv6, support for link-local addressing was built-in and seems to be universally supported. So I don=E2=80=99t think that=20 limiting IPv6 DLEP sessions to non-routable link-local IPv6 addresses would be problematic operationally or from a coding perspective. For IPv4, support for link-local addressing (169.254/16) appears=20 to first have been added in RFC-3927 (May 2005), which is 25 years after RFC-791 (Sept 1981) specified IPv4. It is not obvious to me that both router and host support for IPv4 link-local addressing is really universal today (10 years after RFC-3927). Data in actual support for IPv4 link-local unicast addressing in specific systems (e.g. Linux, MS-Windows, MacOS X, Solaris, QNX, VxWorks, and so forth) would be very welcome. For IPv4, the 224.0.0.0/24 multicast block is designated as=20 the =E2=80=9CLocal Network Control Block=E2=80=9D. For IPv6, there is a designated =E2=80=9CIPv6 Link-Local Scope Multicast Address Block=E2=80=9D= . Those 2 blocks probably ought to be used for DLEP multicast. ** I=E2=80=99m very interested to hear what other folks think about this question. Please follow-up on-list. ** Yours, Ran= From nobody Tue Jul 14 06:58:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AE31ACD52 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V1jP8luiViwh for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3742F1ACD4F for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wiga1 with SMTP id a1so100394211wig.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:58:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h+qo7ty/WhkD2GLEuwr1b2/WD4HR2HU6HaKEOM/XfQ0=; b=ekUJhgJW00aKPZt9FWFwaKpYL3S0KY0MuezzzadsvCrghs+rRfpZg6s/lLdLPAg4ea PRX6UnIzKxBO327ITkP/PS9iL2Y7+fN7cTy+9emiLK3luQSPBZB0eHueVtFKSmvSR5o6 Dcv7XtWz8Bm1RpV/GZ19VgrPucQ3yJnMXEDL1tXUmHvrdxUsw9483tR7z4+rZ/RUGQnv g5ZJyJN0dEQi2voqUBTLaWpHcJMknui4GqzYN1fH4Mah3UiAUira8oGSHUQt/QLb0RID FA3eCwuoKrsVMNQ7p1XU+28nVEE1Rc3zvaAv5H3FWCtVEkpsDLt3MqtIU1VMR+LSrvev Ajfw== X-Received: by 10.194.250.69 with SMTP id za5mr43162319wjc.90.1436882330848; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:58:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:58:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <446B662E-E354-4C62-B415-C72762BD84B1@gmail.com> References: <446B662E-E354-4C62-B415-C72762BD84B1@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:58:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Link-Local Addressing ONLY ?? X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:58:54 -0000 Hi, I would be okay with this... I only would suggest we add a "identifier" in front of our TCP streams, similar to the "DLEP" 4 octet ID we send in front of the UDP packets. This would allow us to define a "DLEP over (D)TLS with routed addresses" later by using a different ID (similar to the "STARTTLS" mechanism of other protocols). A "not (D)TLS aware" implementation would filter away such connections, both because of the different ID or because of routable IP addresses. Later we could do better when we are sure we understand all the implications of encrypted/authenticated DLEP. Henning Rogge On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > All, > > It seems to me that the discussion on the =E2=80=9CSecurity Consideration= s=E2=80=9D > thread has (inadvertently) raised the question of whether the > WG-as-a-whole would like to constrain DLEP implementations > to only use non-routable link-local IP address types. > > This probably merits further discussion, so I=E2=80=99m creating a > separate email thread for this topic. > > BACKGROUND: > > For IPv6, support for link-local addressing was built-in and > seems to be universally supported. So I don=E2=80=99t think that > limiting IPv6 DLEP sessions to non-routable link-local > IPv6 addresses would be problematic operationally or from > a coding perspective. > > For IPv4, support for link-local addressing (169.254/16) appears > to first have been added in RFC-3927 (May 2005), which is 25 years > after RFC-791 (Sept 1981) specified IPv4. It is not obvious > to me that both router and host support for IPv4 link-local > addressing is really universal today (10 years after RFC-3927). > Data in actual support for IPv4 link-local unicast addressing > in specific systems (e.g. Linux, MS-Windows, MacOS X, Solaris, > QNX, VxWorks, and so forth) would be very welcome. > > For IPv4, the 224.0.0.0/24 multicast block is designated as > the =E2=80=9CLocal Network Control Block=E2=80=9D. For IPv6, there is a > designated =E2=80=9CIPv6 Link-Local Scope Multicast Address Block=E2=80= =9D. > Those 2 blocks probably ought to be used for DLEP multicast. > > > ** I=E2=80=99m very interested to hear what other folks think about > this question. Please follow-up on-list. ** > > Yours, > > Ran > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet From nobody Tue Jul 14 07:35:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4001ACE0F for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fJkV6F_aOd70 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D7F11ACE08 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkdv3 with SMTP id v3so7543149qkd.3 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:35:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=mN12EudY1a0YNxUKFBU8mbBUdU8AYCgY2b+p4Z53clQ=; b=cw4ZZKiKE9ldMvxeVWdymOxzLsehh25c7BfzfWdrJtXm5SpO7bTFaGm/X3x0GFKaWx p5myR/sqbx4Qtw6FXxmrMmA2J4rvDO9OosPmqHNxY9KqQEjiQMwz3pWecbjMpuL0Med8 X3UsPujOtuovsHLngXsO+HrkOjTCL6sG2AYb/UiDJklRGl91qDTXIWGuPC2jgvqNfJ4n 2Ho3lok6Km+tCZ0zdjJ3wU5EMqVg8mwOSOT8VkIpCBXklJ8Iw9x2obuKCBFw+Lo88pRD ysy9x3IwvvJbhy22w7cyCTaXtDScs7rhHh1A4eu9Uf6XmmAoDy1fvkk3NdjSNP4jNPdQ xK+A== X-Received: by 10.55.18.197 with SMTP id 66mr62692784qks.13.1436884503935; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d30sm536468qkh.45.2015.07.14.07.35.03 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:35:03 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 10:35:02 -0400 To: MANET IETF Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:35:06 -0000 All The new approach to adding DLEP Signal/Message Types, adding DLEP Data Items, and DLEP Extension values is a vast improvement over the previous approach. This new approach makes it easier to promote something=20 useful in the lab for broader more general use. However, only 15 code points are allocated for =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D= ,=20 which is not nearly enough, despite now having a very large code point space (64K code points). Folks likely will want to try multiple DLEP enhancements concurrently=20 =E2=80=94 in part to see how they interact with each other. Increasing=20= the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D block to something much larger, for = example O(100), would not limit the number of published enhancements given the very large number space available for published enhancements. Further, interoperability is its own reward, encouraging folks with any useful enhancements to publish them. With many IETF protocols, enhancements that initially were unpublished later were published (and in many cases=20 standardized) after their broad applicability and=20 broad utility had been well established. The reality is that there are going to be link-specific=20 parameters that really don=E2=80=99t have general applicability, whether those relate to VSATs, VHF/UHF LoS radio waveforms, or some other kind of radio. The =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D code point blocks enable those kinds of waveform-specific enhancements without forcing one to use a code point that has not officially been allocated to oneself. So they fill a well-known need. The entire existence of =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D within Section 4.1 of RFC-5226 shows that this=20 approach is widely accepted within the IETF. I think 15 =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D code points is not nearly = enough. =20 My straw man proposal would be to make that 150 code points=20 for the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D Data Item Type space, 30 code = points=20 for the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D Signal/Message Type space, and 180 (180 =3D=3D 150 + 30) code points for the DLEP Extension Type space. Yours, Ran From nobody Tue Jul 14 07:45:10 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E7F1ACDDA for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:45:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id amzDIdVXcWXr for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net (uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net [194.62.210.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60DD11ACD53 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:45:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22BE9326B6; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:45:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from auk52542.uk.astrium.corp (unknown [10.201.85.42]) by uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18B2B326A7; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:45:03 +0100 (BST) Received: from E2K3-PTH-BRIDGEHEAD.UKN.UKNroot.astrium.corp ([10.221.1.31]) by auk52542.uk.astrium.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:45:03 +0100 Received: from AUK52982.UKN.UKNROOT.ASTRIUM.CORP ([fe80::543e:db1:48aa:1c6]) by AUK52840.UKN.UKNROOT.ASTRIUM.CORP ([fe80::7584:4b98:38c0:4ce7%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 15:45:02 +0100 From: "MATTY, Steven" To: 'RJ Atkinson' , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations Thread-Index: AQHQvY5KobEBukShQkGXyCkYQDtUVZ3aow6AgABKepD///5kgIAAIEKg Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:45:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <10226_1436881776_55A51370_10226_1663_3_9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <10226_1436881776_55A51370_10226_1663_3_9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.221.1.73] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-8.5.0.1165-8.0.0.1202-21678.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No--21.021-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; 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Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9a8ALo6sQ64k for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22c.google.com (mail-wi0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4870B1ACE4A for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so16626805wib.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:51:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6sM90hsFEofaTIYDUsE5qv4u0M0YdmnboqiHWyJlzVU=; b=J6AnWnVNo/DedTMxUWQ9Mj/5v2FRJfTJtl+Ey7b3ftralWW5swaczvNF8KqaNuP/0k hHDdH1ygYsjMUnypbEtAQa/lT2y+8sn91BgZZNR2BS9ObjfDbzKIoF6Ik+7lV0oH1Xf5 H4ObxJu+vo+HzhjI+QJRImBZp8y/udBNZijX4Ewdd56l5+HcT/cG2NOS9TRJSUV7vKGa aB8z1ehum1JFbO3lPgngLIUDx//RKjlhpxXzLfI2VHvUL5ORcmOjFjrJS9/4WUcGBqxC HrCsPrfS2YH/cIcGR6v0nven9tQmkzzi5+riKnwpN3+EcHUbp/S1uDvYlYqVlvkXLmIU 5MsA== X-Received: by 10.180.23.66 with SMTP id k2mr33584730wif.85.1436885466077; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:51:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 07:50:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Henning Rogge Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 16:50:36 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:51:09 -0000 I disagree... we talked about this and limiting the private signal/extension space was a design decision. 180 private extension points sounds way beyond a reasonable, what would you do with them? If you only have 150 private TLVs, does it even make sense to have more than 150 private extensions? We WANT people to come up with official DLEP extensions for things like VSAT. I don't even see the reason why VHF/UHF should be a special case (maybe HF, but even this should be standardized). Henning Rogge On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 4:35 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > All > > The new approach to adding DLEP Signal/Message Types, > adding DLEP Data Items, and DLEP Extension values is > a vast improvement over the previous approach. This > new approach makes it easier to promote something > useful in the lab for broader more general use. > > However, only 15 code points are allocated for =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80= =9D, > which is not nearly enough, despite now having a very > large code point space (64K code points). Folks likely > will want to try multiple DLEP enhancements concurrently > =E2=80=94 in part to see how they interact with each other. Increasing > the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D block to something much larger, for exa= mple > O(100), would not limit the number of published enhancements > given the very large number space available for published > enhancements. > > Further, interoperability is its own reward, encouraging > folks with any useful enhancements to publish them. With > many IETF protocols, enhancements that initially were > unpublished later were published (and in many cases > standardized) after their broad applicability and > broad utility had been well established. > > The reality is that there are going to be link-specific > parameters that really don=E2=80=99t have general applicability, > whether those relate to VSATs, VHF/UHF LoS radio waveforms, > or some other kind of radio. The =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D code > point blocks enable those kinds of waveform-specific > enhancements without forcing one to use a code point that > has not officially been allocated to oneself. So they > fill a well-known need. The entire existence of =E2=80=9CPrivate > Use=E2=80=9D within Section 4.1 of RFC-5226 shows that this > approach is widely accepted within the IETF. > > I think 15 =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D code points is not nearly enough= . > > My straw man proposal would be to make that 150 code points > for the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D Data Item Type space, 30 code point= s > for the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D Signal/Message Type space, and 180 > (180 =3D=3D 150 + 30) code points for the DLEP Extension Type space. > > Yours, > > Ran > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet From steven.matty@airbus.com Tue Jul 14 06:05:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3DB21AC447 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:05:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tSyRnVIzesRi for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:05:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net (uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net [194.62.210.19]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F851ACC8C for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 06:05:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by IMSVA (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2863269B; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:05:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from auk52542.uk.astrium.corp (unknown [10.201.85.42]) by uk-ext-viruswalls.astrium.eads.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DF4932697; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:05:40 +0100 (BST) Received: from E2K3-PTH-BRIDGEHEAD.UKN.UKNroot.astrium.corp ([10.221.1.32]) by auk52542.uk.astrium.corp with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.4675); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:05:40 +0100 Received: from AUK52982.UKN.UKNROOT.ASTRIUM.CORP ([fe80::543e:db1:48aa:1c6]) by AUK52839.UKN.UKNROOT.ASTRIUM.CORP ([fe80::cdf2:d214:a3a9:7510%15]) with mapi id 14.03.0123.003; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 14:05:39 +0100 From: "MATTY, Steven" To: 'Henning Rogge' , Rick Taylor Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations Thread-Index: AQHQvY5KobEBukShQkGXyCkYQDtUVZ3aow6AgABKepA= Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:05:39 +0000 Message-ID: References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.221.1.73] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSVA-8.5.0.1165-8.0.0.1202-21676.007 X-TM-AS-Result: No--15.767-5.0-31-10 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jul 2015 13:05:40.0352 (UTC) FILETIME=[C8B3E000:01D0BE35] X-TM-AS-MML: disable X-imss-scan-details: No--15.767-5.0-31-10 X-TMASE-Version: IMSVA-8.5.0.1165-8.0.1202-21676.007 X-TMASE-Result: 10--15.766900-5.000000 X-TMASE-MatchedRID: UuaOI1zLN1g4HKI/yaqRm8zWN98iBBeGC8vKN21fck21eX0jEQ9c6h8z Pspm9n7d1jXE94ENJm7Pu+JjKAwVudYoPXJFOZMZYbs1SIHwCEpcSMp/1+Eppw2Y8xyy93kWhfi M2wNWxUhfXgaBel9gNQ5iBOE74OZfgs+NE5cRtBMD2WXLXdz+AQtx7lnIMkAmB+y7eUcffSpxvR fnF5MpYgUJeYAkmPGYwOTLeaSi4eLEyfTozpcRikhEDfw/93BuQrO4XR6BRQMs7eP5cPCWQximM o6Evnr/sdkA7tPqhmh98mqqdVdE3fXt4Or9SpIJ5jAQGdUdWISBEWjW7h4qhaRJWrbGhWhB9c7S 1x5tPwfO0pdSWEgFjLpnpiVtpLXdSSOWVJeuO1D+xOhjarOnHrHlqZYrZqdI+gtHj7OwNO2+Ijs EEOIzYmENKr4Piz/s//HKUF2XP7l4y0zcNdOGvKV9vItixJs7 Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 08:59:05 -0700 Cc: MANET IETF , RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:07:50 -0000 >-----Original Message----- >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge >Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:29 AM >To: Rick Taylor >Cc: MANET IETF; RJ Atkinson >Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations > >> I can see the need for some text in the security section stating that a >> modem receiving multiple repeated Peer_Discovery signals should probably >> limit the amount of listening sockets it creates and perhaps blacklist >> the source of the signals if a valid connection is not used, but adding >> DTLS to the mix doesn't seem to add anything to me. > >I think (for the radio side) it is even easier. > >You get the Peer_Discovery multicast from the router... you answer >with a Peer_Offer UDP... and then forget about the whole thing. > >When you get an incoming TCP connection for the server port on the >radio the radio starts building up a session, based on the >Peer_Initialization content. > >No need to build up a session when you get the Peer_Discovery. Yep, +1 to this. The modem just sends a UDP in response to Peer_Discovery but there is only 1 listening socket at any one time. FWIW, I'm not in favour of mandating TLS or another security layer either. Our environment may quite possibly preclude any such 3rd party software from being present and would be a deal-breaker. RECOMMENDING a link-local = address for peer discovery and sessions suits me just fine (IPv4 link-local address= allocation headaches notwithstanding) :-) However, I do appreciate that those in IESG have to think about the bigger = picture, and not just isolated, closed MANETs... >The only danger with (routed/non-linklocal) Peer_Offers I see is that >you might be able to trick the router to open its DLEP session to a >different TCP socket... which might be a way to start a >man-in-the-middle attack. Yes, this is a good example of why link-local should be encouraged (if not = a stronger word) Regards Steve From nobody Tue Jul 14 09:35:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC7331A6EEC for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:35:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jA-bAGgpPsuF for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B4021A1EFD for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcl188 with SMTP id l188so10112528qkc.1 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=3hQtZFnLHHq+Wmht/1E1eXUmHRtWhrogmP7LaaVYHcs=; b=0V+13DsXZIiEmKtOYNxZIq92f3j9DaacWoHgWGleMCLI06WByoZ6qv0pQ2n/iQKeSe uQw4vWaQ9zhiZltO8wHHqZupmFw2kt+FKaZQfHAZHQ7OPYPPYHDxYSSvCyB8/nKPTzMW +qoiuB3LFn4wpjyMCMlloctNNwxhEFwKcHxgDSRZWW9vk6uUk4E28HpL5Vhn1htS+5Kb Fz2S/Zmt1Ni+Dyb1TxO7E4VcR8D7XTbHYvag6fTvntAjF/+lahIjX7QM6Mo71FNKCZs6 hFWyAL2mRSaWmyguvyBoLKCWsLYXW46SaCY7bFWTAo7bQl8Zy992ochnBfZaGr/jqAGx k3lw== X-Received: by 10.55.23.150 with SMTP id 22mr46539750qkx.21.1436891740522; Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:35:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d6sm721851qgf.0.2015.07.14.09.35.39 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Jul 2015 09:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 12:35:38 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> References: To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2015 16:35:42 -0000 > On 14 Jul 2015, at 10:50 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > 180 private extension points sounds way beyond a reasonable, what > would you do with them? If you only have 150 private TLVs, does it > even make sense to have more than 150 private extensions? Yes. =20 The math is pretty simple: 30 for signaling support for new Signal/Message Types + 150 for signaling support for new Data Item Types equals 180. If you think I=E2=80=99ve misplaced a clue, please do explain. :-) > We WANT people to come up with official DLEP extensions > for things like VSAT. That would be great. I expect that some will be openly specified over time. =20 However, there also are likely to be some that are properties of specific SATCOM waveforms that would not make sense outside=20 of that particular waveform. > I don't even see the reason why VHF/UHF should be a special > case (maybe HF, but even this should be standardized). We agree that it would be great to have various openly specified extensions. Again, I expect that naturally will happen over time. =20 However, the same principles on why a larger =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D= block (especially for Data Items) are needed as I=E2=80=99ve outlined above,=20= previously, and also prior to DLEP-15. Some items aren=E2=80=99t = generic=20 enough, are waveform-specific, or otherwise don=E2=80=99t make sense=20 to publicly specify. Allowing generous Private Use blocks=20 is quite common in IETF protocols, so this ought not seem novel. Yours, Ran From nobody Wed Jul 15 04:10:24 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C693B1A1BAF for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 04:10:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FN3v5fIT87EI for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 04:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 05B751A1AC1 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 04:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wiga1 with SMTP id a1so125628875wig.0 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 04:10:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1C2hHNqLZx/aoXs/F0BfybtV9TutcTPwnYAY6UFlyTI=; b=xtXT42RBcAdDxcqJ1JsTDyCKGBaATpmYINUFcgVaBGfV2v5ZvQbOeAjfbNkb+Jw+Us ar2U8eBTGJUWF2e8HHjebFesNLYuj56b20Uw9wrxZAZFC8cg/FMoNMEF34V9vSaapPIg wRO2pkXsgmu0aOkyUvbyNOnKsSNWSgzeStlfLdN+ZtpzpJ9waI5NYpigosn7k8lrGJDn mtJFiavnc4pR3I8GC7lIniIyz8Vf4a6O54rOFZm1OWlyh0vqccIO9oilFdB0b4HoxJxO 6CMXpIaVhd8h9oc6g0ETPDGij4ZVE8Azk0uOX5onWtcCnghEbXniDkPZtH8kOtLubvAR SUxw== X-Received: by 10.194.109.229 with SMTP id hv5mr7606797wjb.119.1436958618819; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 04:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.4.178] ([217.158.48.187]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id uc16sm26161269wib.8.2015.07.15.04.10.17 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Jul 2015 04:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55A63F96.9000709@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 12:10:14 +0100 From: John Dowdell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "MATTY, Steven" , 'RJ Atkinson' , MANET IETF References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <10226_1436881776_55A51370_10226_1663_3_9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 11:10:21 -0000 On 14/07/15 15:45, MATTY, Steven wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of RJ Atkinson >> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 2:49 PM >> To: MANET IETF >> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations >> >> >>> On 14 Jul 2015, at 09:05 , MATTY, Steven >>> > Apologies. I was inferring using OpenSSL [or another 3rd Party open-source > TLS implementation] on our current platform, within our *current* OS. > My bad, as indeed there are plenty of other TLS implementations out there. > But you're quite right - the fact we are limited to 3rd party TLS solutions shouldn't > affect the WG's review of DLEP w.r.t. security. > > So the problem here is that there is (in typical manet land) no way to check the validity or revocation status of the certificates because there is no path to a central certificate server. This means you have to rely on some pre-loaded trust. There is also the problem of what to do when the trust expires; radios might be delivered and in-service for some years, and now the certificates need to be refreshed every so often, an additional scheduled maintenance task with associated vendor support activity that costs money to do. I'm not convinced the threat is there to warrant the expense this is going to incur. John From nobody Wed Jul 15 06:09:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F171A8F4A for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:09:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kxafsmt95Dz7 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x235.google.com (mail-qk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5572B1A8F49 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by qkcl188 with SMTP id l188so27367545qkc.1 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:09:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=Hy0qmgbukM+eyzxwFSE7sRPKbyoQcWr5ODdnmOcItXE=; b=INPPKLfNJHcrVCeBkEcZ+uSogQkszp+GfIFHYf9RnY721dkN5ZjLNlPHM+gEctTMsH sWpqjG95/U4qmTYIGCSK1HVACEDf8f8jQR+Pi6Y3ZZpXO26Xm/SVug3sT07sTAPjUNtM pdtijFffmY8XOoo7kMSXk0ZgCHyJeHgY9ZkacUZSdUBR9LrppexdGYxwwGieH084BY1f 1qP3MfFL33wVlLzVcni9kGR1ieBrj9InfkLBeuBqeMZYgoQ3znf0Z6NoBKfOwp5SZgfW rtJwp5x8HzvCA5TabGq/am386P3t9vA+Ra5bf/sY1ZYDUPCzhk3hDT398+G/QJIz2WVP wZuA== X-Received: by 10.55.18.31 with SMTP id c31mr7936865qkh.15.1436965778503; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u95sm2210690qge.16.2015.07.15.06.09.37 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <55A63F96.9000709@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:09:36 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <10226_1436881776_55A51370_10226_1663_3_9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> <55A63F96.9000709@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:09:41 -0000 > On 15 Jul 2015, at 07:10 , John Dowdell = wrote: >> On 14/07/15 15:45, MATTY, Steven wrote: >> Apologies. I was inferring using OpenSSL [or another 3rd Party = open-source >> TLS implementation] on our current platform, within our *current* OS. >> My bad, as indeed there are plenty of other TLS implementations out = there. >> But you're quite right - the fact we are limited to 3rd party TLS = solutions shouldn=E2=80=99t affect the WG's review of DLEP w.r.t. = security. >=20 > So the problem here is that there is (in typical manet land) no way=20 > to check the validity or revocation status of the certificates=20 > because there is no path to a central certificate server. This means=20= > you have to rely on some pre-loaded trust. There is also the problem=20= > of what to do when the trust expires; radios might be delivered and=20 > in-service for some years, and now the certificates need to be = refreshed=20 > every so often, an additional scheduled maintenance task with = associated=20 > vendor support activity that costs money to do. John, Within the constraints that you specify (e.g. inside an L3 MANET, other aspects of a particular deployment), I agree there are=20 non-zero operational costs to deploying TLS. This is exactly why=20 the IETF normally does NOT mandate deployment/use, but instead normally only mandates implementation of an interoperable security=20 mechanism (i.e. so users that choose to deploy/use security will=20 have broad interoperability). That noted, at least one radio I am aware of handles the MANET aspects at Layer-2, which reduces the operational complexity=20 that you outline above. Further, I know of both deployments=20 with L2 MANET and also deployments of L3 MANET where the EXISTING=20 operational practice already refreshes the cryptographic configuration=20= elements (e.g. TLS-suitable PKIX/X.509v3 certificates) at regular=20 intervals. Last, while one common deployment of DLEP will be in the context of a MANET, another pretty common deployment of DLEP is likely to be with relatively fixed topologies (e.g. NOT MANET) using VSAT terminals attached to buildings. So the MANET-specific=20 issues affect one common use case, but not all common use cases. Further, a well-designed implementation will permit the device administrator to provision their own certificates and TLS configuration parameters - not requiring =E2=80=9Cvendor support = activity=E2=80=9D. The network firewall at my house permits me to do this, for example. Further, the network firewall at my house does NOT require me to turn it off or to reboot it just because I have updated the configured certificates inside it. =20 This kind of usability detail is usually a =E2=80=9Cquality of = implementation=E2=80=9D=20 item beyond the scope of IETF specifications. We could, however,=20 suggest that implementations support authorized device administrator (re)configuration of certificates and other security parameters=20 without requiring vendor maintenance or operational down-time. > I'm not convinced the threat is there to warrant the expense=20 > this is going to incur. Even if implementation of security mechanisms for DLEP inside=20 a DLEP-compliant radio/router is mandated, the user/operator will have a choice of whether to enable/use/deploy the=20 security mechanism =E2=80=94 or not enable/use/deploy the mechanism, based on local policy and local perception of their threat environment. So I think I grok your concern, but I also end up with a different conclusion than yours. :-) Yours, Ran From nobody Wed Jul 15 06:45:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC4E1A90DF for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:44:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S_EFN_JQuCDQ for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x236.google.com (mail-wg0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 922101A90E6 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgkl9 with SMTP id l9so34106408wgk.1 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=FA4a+MJuocSJ+kZ4lFB5ntkG7LGGAq3OA2jCHHKEe2c=; b=hSVI/d9Lr0OypZsKcB5QDCzZO6rSe42Si6txyUUuJFT1aWcZ5lVgaFzsXG/ZmlPpBl vxh8gUK/dvpEYyxH88HzgwCJdkhNpRxZGzx/1HdX1SyXHtmHHvK6ZtLkw7ILz+iRIpx+ K9Lce1wQk5l4BolzEmvpM24B+4oXQFLJI/uiIneOoPKR/0EKkPzopdduEaP+//M+MbEM X78Pbe7GTMnh+XBR5ewp3ZB0073MxL3jPFRiMviR20OJ4wFD8UVTnYkNiSvdiewJ0N2p x3XgVp2XXH8/z4ySXrpWK3dbmjkz74ZGP3MeV5ifK1Qm1qedh6BiVp5gNytVlrJ/ZhBl 5dSA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.90.209 with SMTP id by17mr517890wib.2.1436967886350; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.86.9 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 06:44:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> References: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:44:46 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: mksTgMxmRrmIwQb0_JIjzitrJyM Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: Frank Fitzek Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d043c80d26b6f9e051aea28f2 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Network Coding in Manets X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 13:44:54 -0000 --f46d043c80d26b6f9e051aea28f2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Frank, As I said before, I'm very interested in the multipath routing with the network coding strategy. Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at Prague. If you are going to make a presentation in MANET WG, I would surely join remotely. regards Jiazi On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Frank Fitzek wrote: > Dear all, > > I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back > of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath > and coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me. > > I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with > my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am > happy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot > in your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group. > > Hope to see you in Prague > > FF > > -- > Frank Fitzek > Professor > Chair of Communication Networks > Institute of Communication Technology > TU Dresden > > phone: +49 351 463 33945 > fax: +49 351 463 37163 > mobile: +49 173 548 2947 > web: www.fitzek.net > skype: fitzek > > 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --f46d043c80d26b6f9e051aea28f2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Frank,=C2=A0

As I said before, I'= ;m very interested in the multipath routing with the network coding strateg= y.=C2=A0
Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at Prague. If y= ou are going to make a presentation in MANET WG, I would surely join remote= ly.=C2=A0

regards

Jiazi

On Mon,= Jul 13, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Frank Fitzek <frank.fitzek@tu-dresden.d= e> wrote:
Dear all,

I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back of= your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath a= nd coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me.

I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with my= that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am ha= ppy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot in= your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group.

Hope to see you in Prague

FF

--
Frank Fitzek
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:=C2=A0 +49 351 463 33945
fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 www.fitzek.net
skype:=C2=A0 fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--f46d043c80d26b6f9e051aea28f2-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 07:02:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7568B1A913D for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_FILL_THIS_FORM_SHORT=0.01, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CjGflBb_37_T for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de (mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de [141.30.67.72]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA4D41A9133 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 07:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zih.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.14.4]) by mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1ZFNGS-0003TG-Es; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:02:24 +0200 Received: from [141.30.128.184] (helo=[192.168.1.102]) by server-50.mailclusterdns.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (envelope-from ) id 1ZFNGP-0000q9-5L; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:02:21 +0200 Message-ID: <55A667EE.4080508@tu-dresden.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:02:22 +0200 From: Frank Fitzek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jiazi YI References: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060702000501060101020302" X-TUD-Virus-Scanned: mailout1.zih.tu-dresden.de Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] Network Coding in Manets X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 14:02:41 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060702000501060101020302 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cool! Did not hear back from the other people in the group whether thy are interested in the topic. If so I can do a short introduction to the topic. FF Am 15.07.2015 um 15:44 schrieb Jiazi YI: > Hi Frank, > > As I said before, I'm very interested in the multipath routing with > the network coding strategy. > Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at Prague. If you are going to > make a presentation in MANET WG, I would surely join remotely. > > regards > > Jiazi > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Frank Fitzek > > wrote: > > Dear all, > > I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in > the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. > Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are > interesting for me. > > I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry > Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is > interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In > case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even > introduce our project to the group. > > Hope to see you in Prague > > FF > > -- > Frank Fitzek > Professor > Chair of Communication Networks > Institute of Communication Technology > TU Dresden > > phone: +49 351 463 33945 > fax: +49 351 463 37163 > mobile: +49 173 548 2947 > web: www.fitzek.net > skype: fitzek > > 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > -- Frank Fitzek Professor Chair of Communication Networks Institute of Communication Technology TU Dresden phone: +49 351 463 33945 fax: +49 351 463 37163 mobile: +49 173 548 2947 web: www.fitzek.net skype: fitzek 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de --------------060702000501060101020302 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Cool! Did not hear back from the other people in the group whether thy are interested in the topic. If so I can do a short introduction to the topic.
FF


Am 15.07.2015 um 15:44 schrieb Jiazi YI:
Hi Frank, 

As I said before, I'm very interested in the multipath routing with the network coding strategy. 
Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at Prague. If you are going to make a presentation in MANET WG, I would surely join remotely. 

regards

Jiazi

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Frank Fitzek <frank.fitzek@tu-dresden.de> wrote:
Dear all,

I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me.

I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group.

Hope to see you in Prague

FF

--
Frank Fitzek
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:  +49 351 463 33945
fax:    +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:    www.fitzek.net
skype:  fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


-- 
Frank Fitzek 
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:  +49 351 463 33945
fax:    +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:    www.fitzek.net
skype:	fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de
--------------060702000501060101020302-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 08:14:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3920E1ACD7E for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:14:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JB5Crlh_3KuA for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E14111ACD5C for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widjy10 with SMTP id jy10so2735797wid.1 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type; bh=AvVbHM9yWbX9VZfORWR6agYv8wji8eUmjZHL9+y3dwI=; b=ybPhFpd4rdLGuTHZJXewnKMb9ckRBwkC4siu7I8Ny+U4oKkBZMdZ7uPeN8d7CJZZQi ev3rLoWF4Dbk50VbygdJ/vutxj0Swineb5ywIJ7DkxeyjkHKFCorIGiJubzKPIZVS9WZ ExVgFBpgnApDkIlWog5FCqCuLOn3t1/IL/LC3rnfxPqt4T+D6/Z25v76iVLbvjMY0jas 9a6jqFY8zjQN0ZFUyyKiTa3GN9ohrR1dzp85d/FfRGoKPs9NdRFxf/zWMtTm6vi2ZF/G MUYCN8GeMlEibO2OyA1oRwnZxth5msJsC4tFsz5TxPIQrVhUNtQxV/K7/6W4e/givXlI DHBQ== X-Received: by 10.180.19.103 with SMTP id d7mr1158328wie.19.1436973290510; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.4.178] ([217.158.48.187]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id pg9sm8355029wjb.40.2015.07.15.08.14.49 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 15 Jul 2015 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <55A678E8.80907@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:14:48 +0100 From: John Dowdell User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: manet@ietf.org References: <55A3F42D.9010201@tu-dresden.de> <55A667EE.4080508@tu-dresden.de> In-Reply-To: <55A667EE.4080508@tu-dresden.de> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070603080204070108060209" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] Network Coding in Manets X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 15:14:54 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070603080204070108060209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frank I'd be interested. If there is no time in the WG meeting we can always have a huddle wherever the lounge is this time. Regards John On 15/07/15 15:02, Frank Fitzek wrote: > Cool! Did not hear back from the other people in the group whether thy > are interested in the topic. If so I can do a short introduction to > the topic. > FF > > > Am 15.07.2015 um 15:44 schrieb Jiazi YI: >> Hi Frank, >> >> As I said before, I'm very interested in the multipath routing with >> the network coding strategy. >> Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at Prague. If you are going to >> make a presentation in MANET WG, I would surely join remotely. >> >> regards >> >> Jiazi >> >> On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Frank Fitzek >> > wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in >> the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. >> Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are >> interesting for me. >> >> I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry >> Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is >> interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In >> case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even >> introduce our project to the group. >> >> Hope to see you in Prague >> >> FF >> >> -- >> Frank Fitzek >> Professor >> Chair of Communication Networks >> Institute of Communication Technology >> TU Dresden >> >> phone: +49 351 463 33945 >> fax: +49 351 463 37163 >> mobile: +49 173 548 2947 >> web: www.fitzek.net >> skype: fitzek >> >> 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de >> >> _______________________________________________ >> manet mailing list >> manet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >> >> > > -- > Frank Fitzek > Professor > Chair of Communication Networks > Institute of Communication Technology > TU Dresden > > phone: +49 351 463 33945 > fax: +49 351 463 37163 > mobile: +49 173 548 2947 > web:www.fitzek.net > skype: fitzek > > 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --------------070603080204070108060209 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Frank

I'd be interested. If there is no time in the WG meeting we can always have a huddle wherever the lounge is this time.

Regards
John

On 15/07/15 15:02, Frank Fitzek wrote:
Cool! Did not hear back from the other people in the group whether thy are interested in the topic. If so I can do a short introduction to the topic.
FF


Am 15.07.2015 um 15:44 schrieb Jiazi YI:
Hi Frank, 

As I said before, I'm very interested in the multipath routing with the network coding strategy. 
Unfortunately, I won't be able to be at Prague. If you are going to make a presentation in MANET WG, I would surely join remotely. 

regards

Jiazi

On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 7:23 PM, Frank Fitzek <frank.fitzek@tu-dresden.de> wrote:
Dear all,

I am following your group for a while and I am often sitting in the back of your meetings. I am very much interested in MANETs. Especially multipath and coding strategies for MANETs are interesting for me.

I will come to Prague and will have some WIFI enabled Raspberry Pis with my that can do network coding. If anybody of you is interested in it, I am happy to share some knowledge about it. In case there is a short time slot in your agenda I could even introduce our project to the group.

Hope to see you in Prague

FF

--
Frank Fitzek
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:  +49 351 463 33945
fax:    +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:    www.fitzek.net
skype:  fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


-- 
Frank Fitzek 
Professor
Chair of Communication Networks
Institute of Communication Technology
TU Dresden

phone:  +49 351 463 33945
fax:    +49 351 463 37163
mobile: +49 173 548 2947
web:    www.fitzek.net
skype:	fitzek

5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de


_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--------------070603080204070108060209-- From nobody Wed Jul 15 09:33:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 321EB1A1AB3 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e-Xqy1gnBT9D for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:33:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de (mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de [141.30.67.73]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E74741A1AB1 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:33:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.zih.tu-dresden.de ([141.76.14.4]) by mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1ZFPcx-0007jK-J3 for manet@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:33:47 +0200 Received: from [141.30.128.184] (helo=[192.168.1.102]) by server-50.mailclusterdns.zih.tu-dresden.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA:128) (envelope-from ) id 1ZFPcu-0004WW-TX for manet@ietf.org; Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:33:44 +0200 Message-ID: <55A68B6A.3010705@tu-dresden.de> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 18:33:46 +0200 From: Frank Fitzek User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: manet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TUD-Virus-Scanned: mailout2.zih.tu-dresden.de Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Request for speaker slot X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:33:50 -0000 Dear chars, as indicated in some of my posts, it would be an honor to me to present some results on our wireless mesh implementation with network coding. So in case you have slot, I could present some research results and introduce our software library for network coding. FF -- Frank Fitzek Professor Chair of Communication Networks Institute of Communication Technology TU Dresden phone: +49 351 463 33945 fax: +49 351 463 37163 mobile: +49 173 548 2947 web: www.fitzek.net skype: fitzek 5G Lab Germany Coordinator 5Glab.de From nobody Thu Jul 16 08:21:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21C571A854B for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 08:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tHunMVspu0Vm for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D5A5C1A701E for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 08:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 16:20:33 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: RJ Atkinson , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text Thread-Index: AQHQvaPiHNpjv3dYxUWQD7zFXH/9sA== Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 15:20:31 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 15:21:02 -0000 Ran,=0A= =0A= I'm going to have to change my mind on this one. I was kicking my ISP =0A= last night getting them to do a SNR reset on my ADSL2+ modem, and as I =0A= watched it bounce up and down I imagined a world where the modem used =0A= DLEP to inform my local network what connection speed I was getting, and = =0A= I could trigger some kind of alert when the SNR changed to such a point =0A= that my bandwidth was restricted.=0A= =0A= I don't think it is the authors' responsibility to take the current =0A= state of other standards bodies into account when writing introductory text= .=0A= =0A= I think we have a use-case in cable modems, just as we have in any other = =0A= class of modem.=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= =0A= On 13/07/15 20:49, Rick Taylor wrote:=0A= > Ran,=0A= >=0A= > I'm happy to remove references to cable modems. You make good points. DL= EP is radios and sat-modems in reality.=0A= >=0A= > I'll address your other concerns when I get back to the office.=0A= >=0A= > Rick=0A= >=0A= > -----Original Message-----=0A= > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of RJ Atkinson=0A= > Sent: 13 July 2015 20:41=0A= > To: MANET IETF=0A= > Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > 1) Readability of DLEP Specification=0A= >=0A= > I find it odd that some of the diagrams needed to understand the DLEP Con= cept of Operations are buried in Appendix A and Appendix B.=0A= >=0A= > I would find the specification much more readable if a distinct =93Concep= t of Operations=94 sub-section were created out of some existing text in 1.= 0 plus Appendices A & B.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > 1A) I would suggest that the existing 1.0 text be retained,=0A= > but that 1.0 end after the phrase =93=85data loss and additional=0A= > retransmissions on the link.=94=0A= >=0A= > 1B) The remaining text from the current 1.0 should move into=0A= > a new sub-section:=0A= > "1.1 Concept of Operations=94=0A= >=0A= > 1C) This new subsection would also include the text (and=0A= > crucially the diagrams) from current Appendices A & B.=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > 2) DLEP Applicability=0A= >=0A= > Being VERY familiar with the DOCSIS (including EuroDOCSIS) cable modems, = I am confident they will NOT be using DLEP. Those cable modem standards re= quire a plain IP/Ethernet user interface.=0A= > Further, while cable modems do support varying data rates, the data rates= for a cable modem are **provisioned** from a centralized provisioned syste= m. So DLEP really is not-applicable to a cable modem system.=0A= >=0A= > Separately, given the huge installed base of DSL systems and WiFI/802.11 = systems, I doubt that very many of the already deployed DSL systems or WiFi= /802.11 systems will be upgraded to implement DLEP.=0A= >=0A= > DLEP=92s likely deployment base consists of IP/Ethernet-enabled radios th= at are not already widely deployed as of the date that the DLEP specificati= on is published =97 plus maybe some of the IP/Ethernet radios that are usin= g PPPoE extensions at present.=0A= >=0A= > Requested Action:=0A= >=0A= > Please remove the mention of cable modems.=0A= >=0A= > DLEP really is not applicable to cable modems, which=0A= > have a widely deployed set of inter-related standards=0A= > (not including PPPoE and not likely to include DLEP).=0A= >=0A= > Yours,=0A= >=0A= > Ran=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > manet mailing list=0A= > manet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > manet mailing list=0A= > manet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= >=0A= =0A= From nobody Thu Jul 16 12:02:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF5E91A00FF for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:02:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ewoTyQp6KnRl for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wg0-x236.google.com (mail-wg0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED4381A0100 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wgmn9 with SMTP id n9so65769292wgm.0 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:02:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TFfpaPmBE7D5mtGO1Pk41TYumeWjLILjRWS6kG3cNRo=; b=sRZ7mwuNg6y1Xwb7rIk3XuyXYMqN/9rurS0USZP94rwk5QCaHrzlbTnEWYJWi990v/ NjaDpys9fi5rr4N+lSVUTHbK7IBQurVK5j6zwb9y+g20CTxk0+FgmHlawp7z8aXSwTw3 GT7Su/3piOXpZeFxjZRx29mpFY8lSpWUdAKXBXJ7vnjhfhsKT2MkYP/A7W4CN+tL0YHm 1zhrl+wktGG2U7hPmN8yHIQcoTe/TTERVH3tTbzw8697nLOzj5vV/STR6TDrTnaCGS9A u2V7lXAiit8/UemCVDDn4Op5BU+mqjkQbnwyoRw1ZzBZBqdCktzIg6WGvEyXQ7DskFAp Ua5A== X-Received: by 10.180.19.197 with SMTP id h5mr9318660wie.45.1437073350722; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:02:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:02:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <10226_1436881776_55A51370_10226_1663_3_9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> <55A63F96.9000709@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 21:02:01 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:02:50 -0000 On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 3:09 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > Within the constraints that you specify (e.g. inside an L3 MANET, > other aspects of a particular deployment), I agree there are > non-zero operational costs to deploying TLS. This is exactly why > the IETF normally does NOT mandate deployment/use, but instead > normally only mandates implementation of an interoperable security > mechanism (i.e. so users that choose to deploy/use security will > have broad interoperability). I still have yet to see a good use-case for a DLEP radio two IP hops away from the DLEP router. > That noted, at least one radio I am aware of handles the MANET > aspects at Layer-2, which reduces the operational complexity > that you outline above. Further, I know of both deployments > with L2 MANET and also deployments of L3 MANET where the EXISTING > operational practice already refreshes the cryptographic configuration > elements (e.g. TLS-suitable PKIX/X.509v3 certificates) at regular > intervals. > > Last, while one common deployment of DLEP will be in the context > of a MANET, another pretty common deployment of DLEP is likely > to be with relatively fixed topologies (e.g. NOT MANET) using > VSAT terminals attached to buildings. So the MANET-specific > issues affect one common use case, but not all common use cases. and how do these detachment get the traffic when they are multiple IP hops = away? > Further, a well-designed implementation will permit the device > administrator to provision their own certificates and TLS > configuration parameters - not requiring =E2=80=9Cvendor support activity= =E2=80=9D. > The network firewall at my house permits me to do this, for example. > Further, the network firewall at my house does NOT require me > to turn it off or to reboot it just because I have updated the > configured certificates inside it. It also changes DLEP from a "auto-discovery/zero-conf" protocol to something much more complicated. I have yet to see how to use DTLS for the multicast discovery packets. I am also not convinced we have anyone with experience how adding (D)TLS to DLEP changes the protocol. Its definitely not a "just use it and everything is fine". Henning Rogge From nobody Thu Jul 16 12:05:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573C41A0103 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:05:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rC0pjAGMLMka for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:05:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E5401A00DB for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so22881059wib.1 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=ktuPSJqW4hmXpvFfqSMQXcbbZoNrKt6MIvmcel4D68E=; b=LtlzbMC2maFD/zZs88znCmDJWDsGqTeIMgjO8XPsivJa5a6tWeo7QAQy+104m36J4L p5Xby7gCXOfQZC9QB1c2MyOz7HTNjW1x+e46DgWMNmFvGM3JyjKOO4puI9LrVxF7sMhd sYGz7v8jjs6fpShg55tpfA/ndTeeA2N3JLuoQebEeEtRydC0n7cSdOrJjIawwPQe3280 7JeuaGiklHwzMRUh9olJOwHFg9WRN5k/G5HBXb69tOnldr/+PSqf4xn9X63MAE6Lk0yT ObWclqXtgl24jXuJYtTSXy2ZIfDxJUEoKiFKeok62USQqRXOWMzkqkd5gxbX2GLMlnI0 jqmw== X-Received: by 10.194.250.69 with SMTP id za5mr22000131wjc.90.1437073546458; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:05:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Thu, 16 Jul 2015 12:05:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 21:05:16 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2015 19:05:52 -0000 On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:35 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > >> On 14 Jul 2015, at 10:50 , Henning Rogge wrote: >> >> 180 private extension points sounds way beyond a reasonable, what >> would you do with them? If you only have 150 private TLVs, does it >> even make sense to have more than 150 private extensions? > > Yes. > > The math is pretty simple: > 30 for signaling support for new Signal/Message Types > + 150 for signaling support for new Data Item Types > equals 180. Yes... a signal is just a container for TLVs... what kind of use-case do you see for "single signal, no TLV" extensions? Practically all extensions I have thought about myself or heard about were either "zero signal, lots of TLVs" or "few signal, lots of TLVs". Henning From nobody Fri Jul 17 01:41:07 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FD191B31AC for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 01:41:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tIdsQwjxFztA for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 01:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15A621B31AA for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 01:41:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 09:40:37 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: Henning Rogge , RJ Atkinson Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP Thread-Index: AQHQvkSJ6MgYfAIdbU2njZIBREk4HQ== Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 08:40:33 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 08:41:05 -0000 Ran,=0A= =0A= I'm with Henning on this one. As designed, 1 extension introduces 0..N =0A= signals and 0..N data items, so the math isn't as simple as you say.=0A= =0A= In reality, supporting more than 1 Private Use extension per session is =0A= impossible, so the 14 private use extensions we have provided is (in my =0A= mind) plenty. If one needs to run 14 different modems all supporting =0A= private use extensions simulataneously, then either a) Your experimental = =0A= methodology is flawed, or b) It's time to write up a few of these =0A= experiments and bring them to MANET.=0A= =0A= The reworked math:=0A= =0A= 14 exts * (126 msgs + 126 dis) =3D 3528 code points for customization.=0A= =0A= Actually this calculation is pretty meaningless, but it does point out =0A= that there is enough Private Use room in DLEP-15.=0A= =0A= Cheers,=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= =0A= =0A= On 16/07/15 20:06, Henning Rogge wrote:=0A= > On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 6:35 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote:= =0A= >>=0A= >>> On 14 Jul 2015, at 10:50 , Henning Rogge wrote:=0A= >>>=0A= >>> 180 private extension points sounds way beyond a reasonable, what=0A= >>> would you do with them? If you only have 150 private TLVs, does it=0A= >>> even make sense to have more than 150 private extensions?=0A= >>=0A= >> Yes.=0A= >>=0A= >> The math is pretty simple:=0A= >> 30 for signaling support for new Signal/Message Types=0A= >> + 150 for signaling support for new Data Item Types=0A= >> equals 180.=0A= >=0A= > Yes...=0A= >=0A= > a signal is just a container for TLVs... what kind of use-case do you=0A= > see for "single signal, no TLV" extensions?=0A= >=0A= > Practically all extensions I have thought about myself or heard about=0A= > were either "zero signal, lots of TLVs" or "few signal, lots of TLVs".=0A= >=0A= > Henning=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > manet mailing list=0A= > manet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= >=0A= =0A= From nobody Fri Jul 17 02:18:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A6C01B31F0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 02:18:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.161 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.161 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zHJ7gzczad-a for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 02:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de (mailguard.fkie.fraunhofer.de [128.7.3.5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 281E31B31EF for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 02:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rufsun5.fkie.fraunhofer.de ([128.7.2.5] helo=mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ZG1n7-0003e2-MG for manet@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 11:18:49 +0200 Received: from mailserv2bcas.fkie.fraunhofer.de ([128.7.96.56] helo=mailserv2.fkie.fraunhofer.de) by mailhost.fkie.fraunhofer.de with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1ZG1n7-00012d-Iz for manet@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 11:18:49 +0200 Received: from [128.7.5.36] (128.7.5.36) by MAILSERV2BCAS.lorien.fkie.fgan.de (128.7.96.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.224.2; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 11:18:48 +0200 Message-ID: <55A8C878.7080909@fkie.fraunhofer.de> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 11:18:48 +0200 From: Henning Rogge User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="------------ms020802080607000204040508" X-Originating-IP: [128.7.5.36] X-Virus-Scanned: yes (ClamAV 0.98.1/20701/Thu Jul 16 20:36:43 2015) by a.mx.fkie.fraunhofer.de X-Scan-Signature: 3227f0690b92e74c5d151b48a7980dce Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP interop testing in Prague? X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 09:18:54 -0000 --------------ms020802080607000204040508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Am 10.07.2015 um 23:49 schrieb Henning Rogge: > Hi, > > what do you think about a DLEP interop test in Prague? If interested I > could bring to WLAN based nodes with DLEP-radio software on them (and > normal olsrd2 with DAT metric and DLEP support) with me and we could > do some testing with it. Nobody interested? I don't want to bring wifi equipment and antennas to Prague if we will=20 not use them. Without the equipment we would be restricted to simulated=20 data (and no real over-the air) traffic. I have a DLEP-15 (both radio and router) compatible implementation with=20 two custom extensions (OSI layer 1 statistics, OSI layer 2 statistics). Henning Rogge --=20 Diplom-Informatiker Henning Rogge , Fraunhofer-Institut f=FCr Kommunikation, Informationsverarbeitung und Ergonomie FKIE Kommunikationssysteme (KOM) Fraunhofer Stra=DFe 20, 53343 Wachtberg, Germany Telefon +49 228 9435-961, Fax +49 228 9435 685 mailto:henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de http://www.fkie.fraunhofer.de GPG: E1C6 0914 490B 3909 D944 F80D 4487 C67C 55EC CFE0 --------------ms020802080607000204040508 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIUYDCC BC4wggMWoAMCAQICAgEMMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBBQUAMHExCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRwwGgYDVQQK ExNEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIEFHMR8wHQYDVQQLExZULVRlbGVTZWMgVHJ1c3QgQ2VudGVy MSMwIQYDVQQDExpEZXV0c2NoZSBUZWxla29tIFJvb3QgQ0EgMjAeFw0wNzEyMDUxNTE4NTha Fw0xOTA2MzAyMzU5NTlaMGcxCzAJBgNVBAYTAkRFMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpGcmF1bmhvZmVyMSEw 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VNoNvfdWpR3M for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 03:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCC271B325D for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 03:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 11:17:53 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: RJ Atkinson , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text Thread-Index: AQHQvaPiHNpjv3dYxUWQD7zFXH/9sA== Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 10:17:52 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183479D49@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 10:18:26 -0000 Follow-up...=0A= =0A= Yes, I understand the difference between a cable modems and an ADSL =0A= modems, but even in a centrally provisioned system, letting the routers =0A= at the spokes know that connection characteristics that the spoke modem =0A= is getting is useful.=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= =0A= On 16/07/15 16:21, Rick Taylor wrote:=0A= > Ran,=0A= >=0A= > I'm going to have to change my mind on this one. I was kicking my ISP=0A= > last night getting them to do a SNR reset on my ADSL2+ modem, and as I=0A= > watched it bounce up and down I imagined a world where the modem used=0A= > DLEP to inform my local network what connection speed I was getting, and= =0A= > I could trigger some kind of alert when the SNR changed to such a point= =0A= > that my bandwidth was restricted.=0A= >=0A= > I don't think it is the authors' responsibility to take the current=0A= > state of other standards bodies into account when writing introductory te= xt.=0A= >=0A= > I think we have a use-case in cable modems, just as we have in any other= =0A= > class of modem.=0A= >=0A= > Rick=0A= >=0A= > On 13/07/15 20:49, Rick Taylor wrote:=0A= >> Ran,=0A= >>=0A= >> I'm happy to remove references to cable modems. You make good points. D= LEP is radios and sat-modems in reality.=0A= >>=0A= >> I'll address your other concerns when I get back to the office.=0A= >>=0A= >> Rick=0A= >>=0A= >> -----Original Message-----=0A= >> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of RJ Atkinson=0A= >> Sent: 13 July 2015 20:41=0A= >> To: MANET IETF=0A= >> Subject: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> 1) Readability of DLEP Specification=0A= >>=0A= >> I find it odd that some of the diagrams needed to understand the DLEP Co= ncept of Operations are buried in Appendix A and Appendix B.=0A= >>=0A= >> I would find the specification much more readable if a distinct =93Conce= pt of Operations=94 sub-section were created out of some existing text in 1= .0 plus Appendices A & B.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> 1A) I would suggest that the existing 1.0 text be retained,=0A= >> but that 1.0 end after the phrase =93=85data loss and additional=0A= >> retransmissions on the link.=94=0A= >>=0A= >> 1B) The remaining text from the current 1.0 should move into=0A= >> a new sub-section:=0A= >> "1.1 Concept of Operations=94=0A= >>=0A= >> 1C) This new subsection would also include the text (and=0A= >> crucially the diagrams) from current Appendices A & B.=0A= >>=0A= >>=0A= >> 2) DLEP Applicability=0A= >>=0A= >> Being VERY familiar with the DOCSIS (including EuroDOCSIS) cable modems,= I am confident they will NOT be using DLEP. Those cable modem standards r= equire a plain IP/Ethernet user interface.=0A= >> Further, while cable modems do support varying data rates, the data rate= s for a cable modem are **provisioned** from a centralized provisioned syst= em. So DLEP really is not-applicable to a cable modem system.=0A= >>=0A= >> Separately, given the huge installed base of DSL systems and WiFI/802.11= systems, I doubt that very many of the already deployed DSL systems or WiF= i/802.11 systems will be upgraded to implement DLEP.=0A= >>=0A= >> DLEP=92s likely deployment base consists of IP/Ethernet-enabled radios t= hat are not already widely deployed as of the date that the DLEP specificat= ion is published =97 plus maybe some of the IP/Ethernet radios that are usi= ng PPPoE extensions at present.=0A= >>=0A= >> Requested Action:=0A= >>=0A= >> Please remove the mention of cable modems.=0A= >>=0A= >> DLEP really is not applicable to cable modems, which=0A= >> have a widely deployed set of inter-related standards=0A= >> (not including PPPoE and not likely to include DLEP).=0A= >>=0A= >> Yours,=0A= >>=0A= >> Ran=0A= >>=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> manet mailing list=0A= >> manet@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= >> _______________________________________________=0A= >> manet mailing list=0A= >> manet@ietf.org=0A= >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= >>=0A= >=0A= >=0A= > _______________________________________________=0A= > manet mailing list=0A= > manet@ietf.org=0A= > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A= >=0A= =0A= From nobody Fri Jul 17 05:08:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A29A21B3347 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:08:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p0f1xJ2AcNjH for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ll.mit.edu (MX1.LL.MIT.EDU [129.55.12.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B3C1B3344 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LLE2K10-HUB02.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K10-HUB02.mitll.ad.local) by mx1.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTP id t6HC8hCP032311; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 08:08:43 -0400 From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" To: Rick Taylor , Henning Rogge , RJ Atkinson Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP Thread-Index: AQHQvkSHCtzOJiECwU2hk/u3XktErJ3flhqA Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:08:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.25.59.174] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3519965321_5197566" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151, 1.0.33, 0.0.0000 definitions=2015-07-17_05:2015-07-17,2015-07-17,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1506180000 definitions=main-1507170191 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:08:47 -0000 --B_3519965321_5197566 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 7/17/15, 4:40 AM, "Rick Taylor" wrote: >In reality, supporting more than 1 Private Use extension per session is >impossible, Why is this the case? I can see that if you tried to mix two arbitrary Private Use extensions, there could be conflicts, but if someone checks them for compatibility beforehand, why wouldn't it work? 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Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:27:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yAv1eR3GrrHM for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:27:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2AC61B335F for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:27:05 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" , Henning Rogge , RJ Atkinson Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP Thread-Index: AQHQvkSJ6MgYfAIdbU2njZIBREk4HQ== Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:27:04 +0000 Message-ID: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:27:35 -0000 On 17/07/15 13:08, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL wrote:=0A= > On 7/17/15, 4:40 AM, "Rick Taylor" wrote= :=0A= >> In reality, supporting more than 1 Private Use extension per session is= =0A= >> impossible,=0A= >=0A= > Why is this the case? I can see that if you tried to mix two arbitrary= =0A= > Private Use extensions, there could be conflicts, but if someone checks= =0A= > them for compatibility beforehand, why wouldn't it work?=0A= >=0A= =0A= Okay, perhaps 'impossible' is too strong, but it becomes hard. In some =0A= way one could describe 2 compatible private use extensions as just 1 =0A= extension.=0A= =0A= I'm not concerned about putting any limit on simultaneous private use =0A= extensions, but I do think we have enough space in the registry as it =0A= stands.=0A= =0A= Rick=0A= From nobody Fri Jul 17 05:59:18 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA471B3398 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:59:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.209 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2_9VZHIWimTE for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ll.mit.edu (MX1.LL.MIT.EDU [129.55.12.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6D91B3397 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 05:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LLE2K10-HUB02.mitll.ad.local (LLE2K10-HUB02.mitll.ad.local) by mx1.ll.mit.edu (unknown) with ESMTP id t6HCxDRQ013145; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 08:59:13 -0400 From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" To: Rick Taylor , Henning Rogge , RJ Atkinson Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP Thread-Index: AQHQvkSHCtzOJiECwU2hk/u3XktErJ3fpDaA Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:59:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [172.25.59.174] Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha1; boundary="B_3519968351_5392976" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.14.151, 1.0.33, 0.0.0000 definitions=2015-07-17_06:2015-07-17,2015-07-17,1970-01-01 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=7.0.1-1506180000 definitions=main-1507170207 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:59:17 -0000 --B_3519968351_5392976 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On 7/17/15, 8:27 AM, "Rick Taylor" wrote: >On 17/07/15 13:08, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL wrote: >> On 7/17/15, 4:40 AM, "Rick Taylor" >>wrote: >>> In reality, supporting more than 1 Private Use extension per session is >>> impossible, >> >> Why is this the case? I can see that if you tried to mix two arbitrary >> Private Use extensions, there could be conflicts, but if someone checks >> them for compatibility beforehand, why wouldn't it work? >> > >Okay, perhaps 'impossible' is too strong, but it becomes hard. In some >way one could describe 2 compatible private use extensions as just 1 >extension. > >I'm not concerned about putting any limit on simultaneous private use >extensions, but I do think we have enough space in the registry as it >stands. I'd still like to see more. If you have a handful of collaborators, and each one has a handful of extensions, 15 is going to get cramped in a hurry. You can say that they should publish those extensions and get them out of private use space, but that takes time. I'd be more comfortable with at least 32. 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Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:41:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jq42xZcJk4KB for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:41:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22e.google.com (mail-wi0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 55FBA1A017A for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so41005309wib.1 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:41:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=S7zxeFtIYN3VKTMxKc0BhF5puLoZmG3lUSXq/Wv+eCI=; b=0H+EuDf8zYsKWM/syxtplqTfDpYrtav5AZ3Jlg+ahNH0aJJN0oZrKgUD2sgu3TcZiD Sdie9h432pHVtp8vg74s1UdhYfJIryEhf4cb6PAXZsQnlIjVtxOrxF47GqLRozmEzsY+ QqTxFx1tkbtqgnGOXT0y8LLbPNwhlny4HiYpGTpA3WVyu0qVobCLaAn+pE8+GYejrLuC DPObmtgZB94c2xMgqQZgXuCiyJ1Q5Mw2ZsshQzVD08UW9Rw8NF4wwoIeCBdDucM58rhI HwHR0jiC6/VE7Po0hm5HK/sWo+TDQqoiVoKMmlIJxZfXmcd2twULdO1BKSBSIDc+aFGq 2Msg== X-Received: by 10.194.203.3 with SMTP id km3mr28571260wjc.114.1437144111016; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:41:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 07:41:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:41:21 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF , RJ Atkinson Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 14:41:54 -0000 On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL wrote: > I'd still like to see more. If you have a handful of collaborators, and > each one has a handful of extensions, 15 is going to get cramped in a > hurry. You can say that they should publish those extensions and get them > out of private use space, but that takes time. I'd be more comfortable > with at least 32. With private extensions you also have the point to add the "id" just to your configuration file and remap them to different private numbers if necessary. Henning Rogge From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:39:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C5A61B2E7B for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VVIC-Hd3BPAd for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x232.google.com (mail-yk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F99A1B2E77 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykax123 with SMTP id x123so97813412yka.1 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:39:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:date:subject:to :message-id:mime-version; bh=Y+Aru/iulsmLpZXDdo/GijevZpBU4H2EVwnThEDPUDs=; b=HhOns1YHkrIG4z3y+hxVzaYdb7OCfMt+CcNYucRat2frgPv09A9CaizcrNHuoF2Sb2 u/QsLZvABflQWzCIS5ZodC2UpEso8zFTyYAcUW7Dqjceg0P+7HCqBcPMDDe51J/iFL/4 UoaGzL/XDBqGzWXSzN8fCBTBHzzm6Ud5S/YP8cmqrTNvUVoFzJLVtXkV6ByYORfl2dNc PWDUzmWvYkbxHZra0Z8QdM+TemKicVOVIM4wKGfwRjkckD4P8ri3RbDqebe+tXMz89Jf ZJpdarq62yi5Yj0ZZwadRV6yBuFWEyNy5m1EjPK3Mc25YXo6K+bdIrrPM6BgKIc2A81L ZMGw== X-Received: by 10.13.227.66 with SMTP id m63mr16872623ywe.131.1437161954931; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l192sm11959616ywb.6.2015.07.17.12.39.13 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:39:12 -0400 To: MANET IETF Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:39:17 -0000 On Friday, 17 July 2015, at 08:40>33 +0000, Rick Taylor wrote, in part: > As designed, 1 extension introduces 0..N signals and 0..N data items, = =E2=80=A6 This is not actually clear from reading the DLEP-15 draft. In fact, an ordinary IETF reader of this document will not automatically figure out the difference between =E2=80=9Cadditional Data Items, Signals, or Messages that extend DLEP=E2=80=9D and a DLEP =E2=80=9CExtension. Requested Action: - Add clarifying text about all this in Section 3.0. The partially quoted text above might make a good starting point. - Add clarifying text about this in Section 3.1, paragraph 2, Page 11. - Add clarifying text about this in Section 5.2, paragraph 4, which is on page 14. - Add clarifying text about this in Section 8.3, paragraph 2, which is on page 21 =E2=80=94 and also in Section 8.4, Paragraph 3 which is on page 22. - Add clarifying text about this in Section 9.6, page 39. > In reality, supporting more than 1 Private Use extension per session = is=20 > impossible, so the 14 private use extensions we have provided is (in = my=20 > mind) plenty. =20 I agree with David Wiggins=E2=80=99 on-list comments this week about = this. =20 I disagree with the sentence above. > If one needs to run 14 different modems all supporting=20 > private use extensions simulataneously, then either a) Your = experimental=20 > methodology is flawed, or b) It's time to write up a few of these=20 > experiments and bring them to MANET. Disagree. See David Wiggins=E2=80=99 on-list comments about why this is wrong. I agree with David Wiggins=E2=80=99 comments. > The reworked math: >=20 > 14 exts * (126 msgs + 126 dis) =3D 3528 code points for customization. One can=E2=80=99t multiply like that, so the 3528 is not right. According to your clarification quoted at the top of this note, a given =E2=80=9CDLEP Extension Code=E2=80=9D still only allows one = meaning=20 for a given =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D Data-Item, Signal, or Message. So the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D number space is still far too = small. See also David Wiggins=E2=80=99 notes on this, which I agree with. > Actually this calculation is pretty meaningless, but it does point out=20= > that there is enough Private Use room in DLEP-15. The previous math is wrong, as is the sentence above. Yours, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:45:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1346B1A0105 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:45:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W7I-ng0QIz-E for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22c.google.com (mail-yk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 581791A0100 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykfw194 with SMTP id w194so17583926ykf.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:45:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=X8r8kNfiVugByPQX9cRCLmi+E7Ghn1d0Kci2f7XxCf8=; b=dWgBxz9LaqHwFE6uenTHcGh8FH2tDE4VW0sj+WHF4Vy78bQ3BC/5BQIlVk+qnwctZ+ aUgSkUExXM0EPIhWp7TWUaZSpPE5xe5DMtkmm2eqZo0+71PAzQeBjFhVLGn+0Ts14Uo8 JcT3ZsVR8KNgs2//bCRNNpqc6Au+gsDgncXhRc4zXwr6mjN0n9H3V4aAedVXRL1nUlBA jeFtsc3sQpKcFrhWJmyA58DF+59ZXFDQqeKtU6MQGB0pCzGghMqUFNDX189/4GL3XGlD l3OJRRJZa6VumqAEO2dU69JQhW1PodFantIFNYlaxevGPbxypuF8MlvCoOmgadCdBYg3 f5tg== X-Received: by 10.170.50.19 with SMTP id 19mr16990324yks.61.1437162321626; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j3sm11952950ywf.46.2015.07.17.12.45.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:45:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:45:19 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <240507BD-E1C7-416C-83EE-8DDD62EFEEED@gmail.com> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:45:24 -0000 > On 16 Jul 2015, at 11:20 , Rick Taylor = wrote: >=20 > Ran, >=20 > I'm going to have to change my mind on this one. I was kicking my ISP=20= > last night getting them to do a SNR reset on my ADSL2+ modem, and as I=20= > watched it bounce up and down I imagined a world where the modem used=20= > DLEP to inform my local network what connection speed I was getting, = and=20 > I could trigger some kind of alert when the SNR changed to such a = point=20 > that my bandwidth was restricted. ADSL !=3D DOCSIS Cable Modem. My note was about DOCSIS Cable systems, including EuroDOCSIS. So the paragraph above is non-responsive to my note about=20 cable modems. > I don't think it is the authors' responsibility to take the current=20 > state of other standards bodies into account when writing introductory = text. I=92m not sure I agree with the sentence above, but really that comment just above is irrelevant from an IETF process perspective. Clearly it is the authors responsibility to take into account=20 feedback from MANET WG members. I am such a person. I am very=20 familiar with DOCSIS. My team deployed the first DOCSIS modems=20 on the planet back in the late 1990s.=20 How familiar are you with how DOCSIS works ? > I think we have a use-case in cable modems, just as we have in any = other=20 > class of modem. I like DLEP, but there is no DLEP use-case in cable modems. Certainly one has not been outlined or shown here. That does not detract from the usefulness of DLEP. It does make the current claim in the DLEP-15 introduction look very silly. Yours, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:49:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D8201B2FA6 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cQoLarhXgLIr for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x229.google.com (mail-yk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6C3F1B2EBB for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykfw194 with SMTP id w194so17656791ykf.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=YW9XsSCG3aw69wSmvA4927A1qt9MP5iYymp+y5zw60M=; b=r6ReSIvsFJbiBY/8ELkOLxednrTIbjb9vtRlvuepmVIagOPYomfj1+6DnsaeBI7MMl +/FmfuolloEFvfifol4/E8vrNUtk6wsLrqoBaGdRHuYOE7z5ska3bnJuhMA6Sj9esfph eesk0izs36Iop9hgRtzKkxvDmPTTsGQxGwnMwD2jR9LhyfAu4SSs9xQCe8samHIxe4dJ D919SQQevSRjPf7xAjcHpYY0judLKGdX/yiDo4q6PDVx6+pfBwV7qwiKqX+/dzqWDR62 7IwZcVa3qF9pE3Sb1t9ZATyjAOM0xFZ/UzZiXjp9CmiXYY/Hn2IWTLHAJowAf28Wj4YF Bitw== X-Received: by 10.129.60.12 with SMTP id j12mr17264608ywa.76.1437162543332; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k128sm11965032ywd.45.2015.07.17.12.49.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:49:01 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <284FE13E-E93A-4C0A-AB63-6C208657A669@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFB89@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <7C699746-B679-4BFB-9ACA-3C3E8C8F349B@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C302037@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <10226_1436881776_55A51370_10226_1663_3_9CCBB40E-9A92-41F6-8ED7-B1A71DD5859C@gmail.com> <55A63F96.9000709@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Security Considerations X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:49:05 -0000 > On 16 Jul 2015, at 15:02 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > and how do these detachment get the traffic when they are multiple IP = hops away? I think the conversation is looping. That sentence above is about the data path and packet forwarding. However, the security discussion is focused on the DLEP control path. >> Further, a well-designed implementation will permit the device >> administrator to provision their own certificates and TLS >> configuration parameters - not requiring =E2=80=9Cvendor support = activity=E2=80=9D. >> The network firewall at my house permits me to do this, for example. >> Further, the network firewall at my house does NOT require me >> to turn it off or to reboot it just because I have updated the >> configured certificates inside it. >=20 > It also changes DLEP from a "auto-discovery/zero-conf" protocol to > something much more complicated. >=20 > I have yet to see how to use DTLS for the multicast discovery packets. The paragraph that you quoted from me above says TLS, referring to DLEP unicast. It does not say (D)TLS or DTLS. > I am also not convinced we have anyone with experience how adding > (D)TLS to DLEP changes the protocol. Its definitely not a "just use it > and everything is fine=E2=80=9D. For the unicast DLEP, it should be =E2=80=9Cjust use it and everything = is fine=E2=80=9D. However, please recall that I have posed the question of whether the WG-as-a-whole would rather place limitations on DLEP=E2=80=99s IP addressing (e.g. possibly prohibit use of routable/global-scope unicast addresses with a DLEP implementation). I see multiple reasonable paths forward. Making no changes does not seem reasonable =E2=80=94 or the fast path to standards-track RFC, at least from where I sit. Yours, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:49:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D6C31B2FB6 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2thEaQrUoGnZ for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EC2F1B2FB4 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so46871883wib.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=xAj4obfM7NTk7oN5HqtFzpqr99udAJ5SOGo8qf02WMs=; b=TSlZcYhKuzE58Vdis3nEFla+zbkZWNCTPucfU39z3FaMtpfvPNl8+OClOy6h5Wqq3t wRLonSBlOqA7LWYYEicN7BOSh1/j4VEuX0TyrxPM7/fuknt5mqYWGyPMYsF/xruCk1AW pLYYNjah6VySa7OEMR+Os++E49mx6D7R1hn/zt7OVnGL8tGq520HUF9fvh2KhFObHv5X kmjButWpwEV7j9rRq8CP8CMQAsR3ERrdQZTEksbglpGYRuyTYuUzmeA0ZxEk38EuO6T3 YjPznUjVheSQpLPMMCA1WeJ0Z2pae0oqa1J0tYgFbiQT1j177+E1Sb8xQvYZQGIFEh2B 27Wg== X-Received: by 10.194.203.3 with SMTP id km3mr30782678wjc.114.1437162551274; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:48:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <240507BD-E1C7-416C-83EE-8DDD62EFEEED@gmail.com> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <240507BD-E1C7-416C-83EE-8DDD62EFEEED@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 21:48:41 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:49:16 -0000 On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > I like DLEP, but there is no DLEP use-case in cable modems. > Certainly one has not been outlined or shown here. That > does not detract from the usefulness of DLEP. It does make > the current claim in the DLEP-15 introduction look very silly. DLEP would allow the modem to tell the router about its link-speed... which could be useful for multi-homed installations. Henning Rogge From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:50:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D9F71A003B for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8QFBD8htD9Fs for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22b.google.com (mail-yk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66BB71B2E89 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykfw194 with SMTP id w194so17693471ykf.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:50:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=4p+ZDNY5010HcTpxA+RcCcvXa5o7e3M7s5DgLu7ZkPM=; b=IUaaq1kRY/A/v7Q3fn470hOHBTwiawSyQBZZFXMps5drFTehspMFnPWJKImqyiAsAO es52uluLGOy53N/mfoMibPKsNBl61yGM6apaEIyNZTdBZ41Y4T0hYfcKu8o7RdpW1YYE x3OcdcN0kEsvWZlKKXkuRMMhzgfAv9mn9Lx+U91a27Xe1MqKyvrlEljsSAlUvayCj7yj mdM8PqdztI92dDPfM+bvcNN0KJg5AfyQDLD65hXiWjLMRl+VUjsMviHcuwaBAzL+ZWaL DaezO1COs5NsRitdcyK3wWu/XctBV2jF5DsRGWCXV49lJDa7+bNOIwbSzvBcS0Bx0LXb mtbA== X-Received: by 10.13.197.3 with SMTP id h3mr16797252ywd.139.1437162652837; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z67sm494834ywz.38.2015.07.17.12.50.52 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:50:50 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9C1C5B21-8322-40D2-B180-8F66958D0D68@gmail.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:50:55 -0000 > On 17 Jul 2015, at 08:27 , Rick Taylor = wrote: > I'm not concerned about putting any limit on simultaneous private use=20= > extensions,=20 I am glad to hear that. =20 As of DLEP-15, we have number spaces with 64K numbers. Lets increase the =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D allocations to = reasonable sizes and then we (and the document) all can move forward. Yours, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:51:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F9761B2FCC for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id S50Nub4EkDdN for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22c.google.com (mail-yk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E26D1B2FAE for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykfw194 with SMTP id w194so17710505ykf.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:51:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=4Ql9K+GMYH6AYvhrCJwVcsgSHoTEUwrPJYJFtB+/Hi0=; b=yJuy9JsGUBhI5TxAoFcbKuKvyY+C5oaZSpBbXJObHo/NxD5SVdzwCZk9VsfIRRkwR+ o0MIZzWdnPsuB+4GYtzgYGhVQNf4I7T6G9QcDYnKDHsqV3zaeHux0C/uRdJIklcg/bis lHdb4PbOwSXXlC8JcP4PBDGaJS/TScXginE+edRAQxeLCL412yuRkwKoi+AhSEWJs69N AXSmnn3CSMOt6r+ctj0jZTpA0SzpmJhemNGoZPRXRp8kJwg7haQmUN0Y8vVs6Wh/OqLN 4+BRQc1WRUAoXdWqPiM4mambEqsjIUsuFGmEqQYDgcYIgEauTXv4wmUtVYkmfHLnEPj9 8+kA== X-Received: by 10.170.131.193 with SMTP id x184mr17151467ykb.42.1437162704001; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:51:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z67sm494834ywz.38.2015.07.17.12.51.43 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:51:43 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:51:43 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <493C295D-9291-4458-8CD2-9A737E89E74C@gmail.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:51:45 -0000 > On 17 Jul 2015, at 10:41 , Henning Rogge wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL > wrote: >> I'd still like to see more. If you have a handful of collaborators, and >> each one has a handful of extensions, 15 is going to get cramped in a >> hurry. You can say that they should publish those extensions and get them >> out of private use space, but that takes time. I'd be more comfortable >> with at least 32. > > With private extensions you also have the point to add the "id" just > to your configuration file and remap them to different private numbers > if necessary. I am very sorry, but I do not understand the sentence quoted just above. Please rephrase. :-) Yours, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:53:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0941B2FDC for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:53:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9XW4ojzY_phb for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x22e.google.com (mail-yk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3CA61B2FCA for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykdu72 with SMTP id u72so97932470ykd.2 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=4Z/hM3GPtyU6IK3N1uP3N6vtfYJl1n0q5dzQ5YMxHDA=; b=wssjllC+FttG2plzKyj7cU/M3N1BIA8XidLTA3nSJvJhcVvWEUPK6GnT0i2BrIJm+d uGvXF8GiaGV1oXD83Z3Kyu6JbEZGuVQYNpsec/q6q6/K+l2mYuz7TIh4e6kqqBGS3L1K 90BqTfe80dBttW1QEZ8uE64yuEIF+V+2jzCMFFJnbDjrGselcu22KmesMwoxjQEbZpCJ b6YCLdT3rJ2NDbItS1LdXI3FhBbdu/imq6uUF3BJab5XpRrseMKcwfK3i0PenaF9FFKF zYORGoN4UAY159BUVWs2551qVFi/O6z4b+SAde1NlGaybN3H1qTIpDYijuY3sb3zUr+W ynqg== X-Received: by 10.13.213.71 with SMTP id x68mr17031981ywd.44.1437162815457; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b131sm11991098ywc.18.2015.07.17.12.53.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:53:33 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <491DE803-9B9B-466A-B8A4-EF439FACF548@gmail.com> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <240507BD-E1C7-416C-83EE-8DDD62EFEEED@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:53:37 -0000 > On 17 Jul 2015, at 15:48 , Henning Rogge wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:45 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: >> I like DLEP, but there is no DLEP use-case in cable modems. >> Certainly one has not been outlined or shown here. That >> does not detract from the usefulness of DLEP. It does make >> the current claim in the DLEP-15 introduction look very silly. > > DLEP would allow the modem to tell the router about its link-speed... > which could be useful for multi-homed installations. The cable router already knows the link-speed (both upstream and downstream) for each of its associated cable modems. The DOCSIS standard takes care of that. Yours, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 12:58:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCDC81A0302 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id euVsd4p_BknJ for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x236.google.com (mail-wi0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 647EB1A017F for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so51013641wib.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:58:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=G4wGEMYL0xzCc14+H/EhF2zuHs0jAvwB7LEGlUmzdhs=; b=Sw08iZolA0B9fMbpaISIJqxEzQCmyUmR5rSjoe5jPyS5qAEmq5yiV8Yi+GwbmC24w0 uv6OwzuFQ87uc+sDbTVutYHlFXTZQylpFKylVHC7d6zjz7dKaX8FjcgZ/0U26Jdcv42I rTNVxHMP+oJJxJlm+ea/1lc6p8USkOf3T5Tw3m2NrPDTj2yEHo2WxBHyNCskUT6GQXNp DEhInFD7lnqiPF3RCFIFvWoeWR9I8NwtJkpl3Q5vzAAZKuZT7Q/CE3ocYo2wlq8eMWan qWH+cBZlaeArAATZDSnBCHsPWp9+t7OeLS9x5Kn4s6CLKESJYeSx/NVJNx/KRRet1NQT fQ7A== X-Received: by 10.180.77.69 with SMTP id q5mr138473wiw.75.1437163123135; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:58:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:58:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <493C295D-9291-4458-8CD2-9A737E89E74C@gmail.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <493C295D-9291-4458-8CD2-9A737E89E74C@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 21:58:13 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 19:58:46 -0000 On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:51 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: >> On 17 Jul 2015, at 10:41 , Henning Rogge wrote: >> With private extensions you also have the point to add the "id" just >> to your configuration file and remap them to different private numbers >> if necessary. > > I am very sorry, but I do not understand the sentence quoted > just above. Please rephrase. :-) A private extension can easily changed its ID because it is NOT part of a standard. So id collisions are not that big problem. Henning Rogge From nobody Fri Jul 17 13:01:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F5F11A0368 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vKvSOgx2-hfI for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22d.google.com (mail-wi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB3A11A00DB for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by widic2 with SMTP id ic2so46869151wid.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:01:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=YI1pXWffTrJy5sktBw45o9Oqvmct38oFroSyHIXitGY=; b=IkjcokA8au/gleanvyzl5vV45RJ/dQcHP1Wy6te2r7/cCkI3xdzxcldNwWne86MSQg xIqbyQZuUiwOsWAfTV8rrKMKeUR+992HusD+El5nrZ4xs8KA7N2bHK7t4k8u1XvqplxR bYGgOoXql2DKbAA7G4IrU01+7F/X9tKdd/KuXvU6Cb7aGy5wNsulDU3OilGaS82SUb5p Qq/JIYO9s3SDMEJE2Iuc6vYvAhAt+EMEyOqNLmwP6/hKbzjdK3j9Fw1zhLqyGsJLpaIq NbwwhG5g9dMWNB1uS9CyoKdSQ40fH9m/xlnkZrjjYfNDgpEtqlVcXaFvH5V5Pz7gZlse dCow== X-Received: by 10.194.5.4 with SMTP id o4mr35073324wjo.51.1437163278404; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:01:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.223.205 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:00:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <491DE803-9B9B-466A-B8A4-EF439FACF548@gmail.com> References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <240507BD-E1C7-416C-83EE-8DDD62EFEEED@gmail.com> <491DE803-9B9B-466A-B8A4-EF439FACF548@gmail.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 22:00:48 +0200 Message-ID: To: RJ Atkinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 20:01:22 -0000 On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:53 PM, RJ Atkinson wrote: > The cable router already knows the link-speed (both > upstream and downstream) for each of its associated > cable modems. The DOCSIS standard takes care of that. Does DOCSIS exports this data to an external user via UDP or TCP? If you want to connect multiple modems to a single router you will not be using the integrated ones. Henning Rogge From nobody Fri Jul 17 13:42:16 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775241A1B6E for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0W4VytKeNFs2 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ironport.idirect.net (ironport2.idirect.net [198.180.159.30]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7221B1A1BAF for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 13:42:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: None (ironport.idirect.net: no sender authenticity information available from domain of sratliff@idirect.net) identity=pra; 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Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:42:11 -0400 Received: from VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net ([fe80::b5b6:9e50:3403:e75d]) by VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net ([fe80::b5b6:9e50:3403:e75d%15]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.000; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 16:42:11 -0400 From: "Ratliff, Stanley" To: RJ Atkinson , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP Thread-Index: AQHQvkSK5pcVCUj2pEOKs/JdpMvlUp3gWkgA///K+aA= Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 20:42:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9C1C5B21-8322-40D2-B180-8F66958D0D68@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9C1C5B21-8322-40D2-B180-8F66958D0D68@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.250.250.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 20:42:14 -0000 DQoNCj4gLS0tLS1PcmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCj4gRnJvbTogbWFuZXQgW21haWx0bzpt YW5ldC1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSBPbiBCZWhhbGYgT2YgUkogQXRraW5zb24NCj4gU2VudDog RnJpZGF5LCBKdWx5IDE3LCAyMDE1IDM6NTEgUE0NCj4gVG86IE1BTkVUIElFVEYgPG1hbmV0QGll dGYub3JnPg0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogW21hbmV0XSBETEVQLTE1OiBleHRlbmRpbmcvZW5oYW5j aW5nIERMRVANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiA+IE9uIDE3ICBKdWwgMjAxNSwgYXQgMDg6MjcgLCBSaWNrIFRh eWxvciA8cmlja0B0cm9waWNhbHN0b3Jtc29mdHdhcmUuY29tPg0KPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBJJ20g bm90IGNvbmNlcm5lZCBhYm91dCBwdXR0aW5nIGFueSBsaW1pdCBvbiBzaW11bHRhbmVvdXMgcHJp dmF0ZSB1c2UNCj4gPiBleHRlbnNpb25zLA0KPiANCj4gSSBhbSBnbGFkIHRvIGhlYXIgdGhhdC4N Cj4gDQo+IEFzIG9mIERMRVAtMTUsIHdlIGhhdmUgbnVtYmVyIHNwYWNlcyB3aXRoIDY0SyBudW1i ZXJzLg0KPiBMZXRzIGluY3JlYXNlIHRoZSDigJxQcml2YXRlIFVzZeKAnSBhbGxvY2F0aW9ucyB0 byByZWFzb25hYmxlIHNpemVzIGFuZCB0aGVuIHdlDQo+IChhbmQgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50KSBhbGwg Y2FuIG1vdmUgZm9yd2FyZC4NCj4gDQoNClRoZSBjcnV4IG9mIHRoZSBkaXNhZ3JlZW1lbnQgaXMg b3ZlciB3aGF0IGlzICJyZWFzb25hYmxlIiwgc28gdGhpcyBjb21tZW50IGlzIHVuaGVscGZ1bC4g SSdtIG9uIHRoZSBzYW1lIG9waW5pb24gYXMgb3RoZXJzIGhhdmUgc3RhdGVkIG9uIHRoaXMgbGlz dCAtIHRoZSBjdXJyZW50IHByaXZhdGUtdXNlIGFsbG9jYXRpb25zICphcmUqIHJlYXNvbmFibGUs IGFuZCB3ZSBzaG91bGQgcHJvY2VlZC4gDQoNClN0YW4NCg0KDQoNCg0KDQo+IFlvdXJzLA0KPiAN Cj4gUmFuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18NCj4gbWFuZXQgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IG1hbmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbWFuZXQNCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpUaGlzIGVsZWN0cm9uaWMgbWVz c2FnZSBhbmQgYW55IGZpbGVzIHRyYW5zbWl0dGVkIHdpdGggaXQgY29udGFpbnMKaW5mb3JtYXRp b24gZnJvbSBpRGlyZWN0LCB3aGljaCBtYXkgYmUgcHJpdmlsZWdlZCwgcHJvcHJpZXRhcnkKYW5k L29yIGNvbmZpZGVudGlhbC4gSXQgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgc29sZWx5IGZvciB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIHRo ZSBpbmRpdmlkdWFsCm9yIGVudGl0eSB0byB3aG9tIHRoZXkgYXJlIGFkZHJlc3NlZC4gSWYgeW91 IGFyZSBub3QgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsCnJlY2lwaWVudCBvciB0aGUgcGVyc29uIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxl IGZvciBkZWxpdmVyaW5nIHRoZSBlbWFpbCB0byB0aGUKaW50ZW5kZWQgcmVjaXBpZW50LCBiZSBh ZHZpc2VkIHRoYXQgeW91IGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgdGhpcyBlbWFpbAppbiBlcnJvciwgYW5kIHRo YXQgYW55IHVzZSwgZGlzc2VtaW5hdGlvbiwgZm9yd2FyZGluZywgcHJpbnRpbmcsIG9yCmNvcHlp bmcgb2YgdGhpcyBlbWFpbCBpcyBzdHJpY3RseSBwcm9oaWJpdGVkLiBJZiB5b3UgcmVjZWl2ZWQg dGhpcyBlbWFpbAppbiBlcnJvciwgcGxlYXNlIGRlbGV0ZSBpdCBhbmQgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgbm90 aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIuCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fCg== From nobody Fri Jul 17 15:55:46 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D611A88E3 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:55:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4HErrPc09WDI for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x231.google.com (mail-yk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 603151A8A0E for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykfw194 with SMTP id w194so20877709ykf.0 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:55:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; 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[108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c63sm2512891ywa.34.2015.07.17.15.55.41 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 18:55:39 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98016C2FFBE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F980183472FE8@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <240507BD-E1C7-416C-83EE-8DDD62EFEEED@gmail.com> <491DE803-9B9B-466A-B8A4-EF439FACF548@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: Introductory text X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 22:55:44 -0000 > On 17 Jul 2015, at 16:00 , Henning Rogge wrote: >=20 > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 9:53 PM, RJ Atkinson = wrote: >> The cable router already knows the link-speed (both >> upstream and downstream) for each of its associated >> cable modems. The DOCSIS standard takes care of that. >=20 > Does DOCSIS exports this data to an external user via UDP or TCP? As near as I can tell, the answer is yes, but the details vary. =20 Many implementations have at least a read-only web interface. All modems support the published DOCSIS MIB, and that can be=20 read (but not written) from the user side of the CM. I think DLEP is useful =E2=80=94 in fact it is useful without even = needing to mention Cable Modems. I=E2=80=99m confused that the authors are so worried that deleting cable modems as a use case will harm DLEP somehow, even though ample other use cases exist and are already documented. > If you want to connect multiple modems to a single router > you will not be using the integrated ones. True, but DOCSIS 3.0 already includes channel-bonding, integrated inside the CM, that=E2=80=99s part of how a DOCSIS 3=20 cable modem achieves higher data rates than the original=20 DOCSIS 1.0 devices did. Cheers, Ran From nobody Fri Jul 17 15:59:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16CA71A909D for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:59:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id shPVnGgCVDIT for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yk0-x229.google.com (mail-yk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B86CA1A9098 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ykax123 with SMTP id x123so101281798yka.1 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:59:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=O9coOpiokwDViGQQAy7cmEocNsPni9OJtZNwGH8n8u8=; b=yDt8lgh+Z2dbKsOmk4BKPItj1ymjXumnDjEIHggqFpZnaEKkTj01C9jMiz1JzWPrCM a3RGJtyw8UasP6xmcJ6gpm7Ph4CDgz1dhZOKQgnOTLU1Jpy9xxIEp3lpI2tetUOyBk9c zWupGW0WZH242CHCaJDDItJauGxWPCfvLrG25OvZ9ag8xh6gYZdjmyiU8216fCKSR9Tk OPE6MVc0dhiRNU7/50f93MsT2gC8kt8cvlKJsURWvJZcbt6JcMkM8sYC4IHEs9QwiMOT 6HAAQzpPeodiyoS2vrqpaeswHwWhMWCFkNCz1lmmw2M58knyETDa6385pDBnyRt9PsfA rq9A== X-Received: by 10.13.238.71 with SMTP id x68mr18054870ywe.129.1437173979241; Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.30.20.18] (pool-108-31-161-77.washdc.fios.verizon.net. [108.31.161.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d197sm4461096ywb.17.2015.07.17.15.59.38 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Jul 2015 15:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2102\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 From: RJ Atkinson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 18:59:37 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <09C96AD6-589B-4D51-AC1B-58E222C4A6F4@gmail.com> References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9C1C5B21-8322-40D2-B180-8F66958D0D68@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2102) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 22:59:41 -0000 > On 17 Jul 2015, at 16:42 , Ratliff, Stanley = wrote: >=20 > I'm on the same opinion as others have stated on this list - the = current private-use allocations *are* reasonable, and we should proceed.=20= Stan, A range of views about what=E2=80=99s reasonable have been expressed on = the list. I understand that you believe the current numbers are reasonable. =20 We disagree. Maybe soliciting another opinion is useful in this situation. Lou, What is your take on this ? What would be an IETF customary range of =E2=80=9CPrivate Use=E2=80=9D values in this situation ? Yours, Ran PS: I am not, regrettably, going to be in Prague next week. I look forward to reading the meeting minutes for this and several other WGs.=20 From nobody Sat Jul 18 03:53:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 913781B2AEE for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 03:53:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYYYY1Cl_yOx for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 03:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy9-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.20.122]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AC2DF1B2AEC for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 03:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 10219 invoked by uid 0); 18 Jul 2015 10:53:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw2) (10.0.90.83) by gproxy9.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 18 Jul 2015 10:53:43 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw2 with id tmtc1q0072SSUrH01mtf8i; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 04:53:41 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=O9qq4nNW c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=4g2epv4a4k0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=zOBTXjUuO1YA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=texx4mzSAAAA:8 a=_Nkdy9oMXPpJhw9EGrIA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:CC:To:MIME-Version:From:Date:Message-ID; bh=qGgoo+9NPl4R4d4AfUXK3zcqxxkQ6OaoOvUdiEVJmMc=; b=HciFCtzF8eCDiN5LhhL7j/XzNlfLs+a/7PwEUoNDX2FxmJArZoWeBfEYW1h8xiEncFWw/CdmXqidB0Gphkpku5XWGrGngJQPrhjrcujOtFMP9srKTnUSGdp8DbBBjpX6; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:54543 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZGPkQ-0004yN-06; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 04:53:38 -0600 Message-ID: <55AA302F.9090802@labn.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 06:53:35 -0400 From: Lou Berger User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RJ Atkinson References: <440F4FC3-5C20-4A04-831D-A52B385D6DFD@gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801834798B0@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F98018347DCDE@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <9C1C5B21-8322-40D2-B180-8F66958D0D68@gmail.com> <09C96AD6-589B-4D51-AC1B-58E222C4A6F4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09C96AD6-589B-4D51-AC1B-58E222C4A6F4@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-15: extending/enhancing DLEP X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 10:53:48 -0000 Ran, See below. On July 17, 2015 7:00:02 PM RJ Atkinson wrote: > > > On 17 Jul 2015, at 16:42 , Ratliff, Stanley wrote: > > > > I'm on the same opinion as others have stated on this list - the current > private-use allocations *are* reasonable, and we should proceed. > > Stan, > > A range of views about what’s reasonable have been expressed on the list. > I understand that you believe the current numbers are reasonable. > > We disagree. > > Maybe soliciting another opinion is useful in this situation. > > > Lou, > > What is your take on this ? What would be an IETF customary > range of “Private Use†values in this situation ? > I'm not sure there really is a 'customary range'. Generally the allocations with the different policies are separated sufficiently (e..g., one policy allocates incrementally from 0, while the other is allocated from the top of the range) to allow the size of the ranged to be revisited based on real use. Lou > Yours, > > Ran > > PS: I am not, regrettably, going to be in Prague next week. > I look forward to reading the meeting minutes for this > and several other WGs. > > > From nobody Sat Jul 18 09:14:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C35611A0097 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SgnDS2wW8Ali for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22b.google.com (mail-pd0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA6A61A0092 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pdjr16 with SMTP id r16so79302215pdj.3 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:to; bh=w1bunvj7uQ1fWnKkIxxIujLfjBcX2fb8s4SLdht0gxc=; b=zbiK/w8KTB7CrD3vNz5s58L/uDwI1j77dqhS5iZcHqmUdB2n6W65p11VDJaZXA8YJ7 +Rll+ncGuCYMu5dMJLPwtnpb/RKwJSR2xgcUjfyZ7F/DIaDqCNqHgLQ+iSyNHKo+7kgt k44Tg6oHElohlWTIJ6/FMQLnYdNimkGIoaSUk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=w1bunvj7uQ1fWnKkIxxIujLfjBcX2fb8s4SLdht0gxc=; b=NdLgFT2ljlz/7qeHVGpIOHZpjbncYixFXKnyFAIZIFye/b6AAEaFF/x5eMBwnwvD6K ZmXGDxXdopNzTGa3Hn0irpuWzuHu+a6glBpS1hdnYxA5CMZKiqdTgADeXQkNNdSiPBPo 7EAlvMaO5Kcc507PJbghD7EpzyuREmBNqVuadiCWDgr6DFCdOR04jGMpgthKPlKzARkP Tha/GGDRLb44xKMMv8PullIJMT1o+PT2MoF63rz0XhbiLkUoeYaJBdCVYrN9HzV9UPQs Pi5akmlOLZGbKzkt+gktkTJmzGhTHI8UB4VU4hJKYfH/5HCT1syNLf0tpsjonZbk51n0 O43Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnL6E8g0Mi4EPwX1lgu4NOXmYjX7fFxwGqhnZywYpCGKzgr42UDtXC5NYm3Zr/21up40hvg X-Received: by 10.66.255.67 with SMTP id ao3mr40621969pad.60.1437236063457; Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:647:4401:dd50:1ddf:6c97:518f:3e8f? ([2601:647:4401:dd50:1ddf:6c97:518f:3e8f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id da2sm14707859pbb.57.2015.07.18.09.14.21 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Ulrich Herberg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: <5DD9EAA2-6F5D-41B8-BD84-E66B0BF9EE27@herberg.name> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 09:14:20 -0700 To: manet X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12H143) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Slides by Tuesday EOB X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2015 16:14:25 -0000 Presenters: Please send me your slides by Tuesday EOB.=20 Note that I am not coming to Prague, so I cannot upload any last-minute chan= ges after that time. Best regards Ulrich Sent from my iPhone= From nobody Tue Jul 21 01:53:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E607A1B2B80; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:53:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6JaqRz2gFPaI; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278C81B2BEC; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:52:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.0.4.p3 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150721085250.25559.13658.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 01:52:50 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:53:26 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) Authors : Jiazi Yi Benoit Parrein Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06.txt Pages : 20 Date : 2015-07-21 Abstract: This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 21 02:06:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93DB1B2C39 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:06:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.277 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.277 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3e695IlFyC4 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com (mail-wi0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B60EC1B2C33 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so50092800wib.1 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:06:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=KzJ1Jh0pu6sBbERJHaEkIbZo8CxY5MXtrU73oqky8zM=; b=d2r3Ke9FsoEmrk/U2+XlMaDuZosCBd/uPaCOcDCinGe79/ddCknjblx0jZLp15FNoT LfD4AzaevI27RLT07qx9Kpd6vePosopoWlpis9VL2eAoyPnZcm5VyYDem2ZeFYQ3iHJp W3ely/4LMC6T/8dXUAP78q9bR3xkqO/+X15MLpURBtA0un5buxM3CnoCPcNphr6VxuAB sYNIVyRZ6PGs8rom5a13LIXtM/33AzRhD1duu5ufAkUGXLSj3e3B7rmwQVMvj0BjNpyb N4CTEjdwzFTiuwA9lekCsB32iafeXxHCogXWqXRFqlY1rIV2QHLf2Wqu1h1eDd1wpbss T39w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.95.67 with SMTP id di3mr29076023wib.78.1437469591531; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.28.86.9 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 02:06:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150721085250.25559.13658.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150721085250.25559.13658.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 11:06:31 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: _gf0S8Nnoru7EfcXtc4sQcm8NT8 Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: manet Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d044287e260f3da051b5ef835 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:06:34 -0000 --f46d044287e260f3da051b5ef835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Dear all, A new revision of olsrv2-multipath is just submitted. There is no major modification compared to the previous revision -- mainly fixing some typos and nits. FYI, we also made the open source implementations mentioned in the draft available in github: https://github.com/yijiazi/mpolsr_qualnet https://github.com/yijiazi/mpolsr_ns2 https://github.com/yijiazi/mpolsr_testbed regards Jiazi On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 10:52 AM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of > the IETF. > > Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link > State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) > Authors : Jiazi Yi > Benoit Parrein > Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06.txt > Pages : 20 > Date : 2015-07-21 > > Abstract: > This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link > State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple > disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. > The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --f46d044287e260f3da051b5ef835 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear all,=C2=A0

A new revision of olsrv= 2-multipath is just submitted.=C2=A0

There is no m= ajor modification compared to the previous revision -- mainly fixing some t= ypos and nits.=C2=A0

FYI, we also made the open so= urce implementations mentioned in the draft available in github:
=


https://github.com/yijiazi/mpolsr_testbed

regards

Jiazi

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 a= t 10:52 AM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
=C2=A0This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group= of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version= 2 (OLSRv2)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Jiaz= i Yi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Benoit Parrein
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 20
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2015-07-21

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimiz= ed Link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 pro= tocol.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie= tf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff= ?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--f46d044287e260f3da051b5ef835-- From nobody Tue Jul 21 07:19:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D6331B2E48; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:19:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ixB5l02LrrEU; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF9A51B2E50; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:19:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.1.0.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150721141924.18436.80275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:19:24 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 14:19:32 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP) Authors : Stan Ratliff Bo Berry Cisco Systems Darryl Satterwhite Rick Taylor Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt Pages : 66 Date : 2015-07-21 Abstract: When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make routing decisions. In mobile or other environments where these characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not allow the router to make the best decisions. A bidirectional, event- driven communication channel between the router and the modem is necessary. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jul 21 07:56:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2C7A1B2EB5 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:56:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0WdjzF581zx4 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC9AC1A895E for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so59891202wib.1 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:56:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:to; bh=0YGJeeY2I7vwJDZ3C+rHDM2utG7CPOlJQQaPJEVM6l0=; b=aGonRadypdLN/UsX8a/USZBrYYPMNKJLF5pYHZtfzbvgQBn/UBckeLZEU1TJdNNdDS qtOXaRQM84OkNtfd0bKVZg5RqdQL3YEEQgSvpFIM5LpAJWf+AXtlgKtzBjiVR8677nV6 hL0M0YSueR42AwDYuwLMZWdh9pd3a3r2V9pHVBvWiiwapR7c/lDmZvF6d7T/aVgXNm0H eHs2X/mARMfDFFfx5WzHd0DJpmPTClEf47USj5StaGy8Kf3qyEnSc2KATTzX1rX2nrwB ik2wnqqPf9j5I2bMMQ/86oWDgjrD1bvdWOxSJJgMAkQ3pPQpgaCtH/nCdsxeQLKLLEkF T8Ig== X-Received: by 10.194.178.99 with SMTP id cx3mr66145107wjc.33.1437490571510; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.179.179] (dhcp-b3b3.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.179.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ma4sm4083087wjb.38.2015.07.21.07.56.10 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Jul 2015 07:56:10 -0700 (PDT) From: James Nguyen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 16:56:09 +0200 To: "manet@ietf.org" X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12F70) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] WG Charter X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 14:56:26 -0000 Hi, We talked about revising the charter at the IETF 92 in Dallas. Do we have a draft of the revised charter? James From nobody Tue Jul 21 08:11:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1533A1B2EE4 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:11:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KFSnKPvjxr4r for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:11:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy6-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.39.168]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 41A551B2F28 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24970 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 2015 15:11:00 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw2) (10.0.90.83) by gproxy6.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 2015 15:11:00 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw2 with id v3Au1q00m2SSUrH013AxlD; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:10:58 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=O9qq4nNW c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=JAI3OqB5mnwA:10 a=N659UExz7-8A:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=zOBTXjUuO1YA:10 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=lZLqtPhli3V9a_tHcrgA:9 a=pILNOxqGKmIA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Date:Message-ID:From:Cc:References:To:Subject; bh=/kTFrfBWNgHthx7dr3PFXzYZPUz97tDPTibjNNs9hdk=; b=GlC8yjjlN6LfrtvH8bZL03JgtsGZ6C1eQarnpppv3ERgUQtENUdmr2zbufsYjNk74GaqvS+Uz13zZUIoUoBEMHIKQDZEAHxbByJwASsfYZVPOmPu6NhWxD6AogrjTUYH; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:39297 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHZC4-0008Ns-8T; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:10:56 -0600 To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org References: <20150721141924.18436.80275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Lou Berger X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <55AE60F8.7060905@labn.net> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:10:48 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20150721141924.18436.80275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:11:18 -0000 Authors, What are your plans to respond to the issues raised in the (my) RtgDir review? Typically each raised issue is discussed on the list, with a proposed resolution from authors, discussion with the WG, and a clear resolution being agreed upon in order to close the issue. I think we've only discussed a few of the raised issues. Thanks, Lou On 7/21/2015 4:19 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP) > Authors : Stan Ratliff > Bo Berry > Cisco Systems > Darryl Satterwhite > Rick Taylor > Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt > Pages : 66 > Date : 2015-07-21 > > Abstract: > When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over > wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the > characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make > routing decisions. In mobile or other environments where these > characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the > inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not > allow the router to make the best decisions. A bidirectional, event- > driven communication channel between the router and the modem is > necessary. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > From nobody Tue Jul 21 08:16:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D59B91A0252 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:16:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lDiwaWQwIfAJ for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22b.google.com (mail-wi0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51D341B2E59 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:15:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibud3 with SMTP id ud3so130910738wib.0 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=UQpgaOfCd3OXFUEtk2kYzYe8IK1l8T/AK27aMGUF0jk=; b=PP056OnokGT56cRJTW8jqKwpCr3BzOGM+MHxOUJIH9suo7/7NWzXfLzsX2eZeK46nr hdDSEPgIKnE1UwK+amci/140I+o60JfqTIEm5+fhQCYFRooB66ubP43dB9gooLWq6e+r svFEN2EBkM3ovJHD/FLLu9bz3Jy8E8PJcTw1w1uns6ZdnSY/hbL2CfeyQVoPZm6WsTvl s1w6PqepXDhbtegOtCyMnY5JmGPGOlEPQ8x/KPA1VyzwSjhZgf23lLkFS1r7AuZU8vvS e2FUmm+Bs/vg2oy4sZ+lRDxLJ2ThOcDt1yR1niWB2giVmeBIel/XHE6eAeVD4WpYAALB 6NIQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.58.109 with SMTP id p13mr73237217wjq.36.1437491758135; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.69.39 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:15:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:15:58 +0200 Message-ID: From: Justin Dean To: James Nguyen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7ba977ae9c7ec2051b6421ca Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] WG Charter X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:16:01 -0000 --047d7ba977ae9c7ec2051b6421ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The chairs along with the AD have one. We will hopefully present later this evening for the working group to consider for updates/revision. Justin Dean On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:56 PM, James Nguyen wrote: > Hi, > > We talked about revising the charter at the IETF 92 in Dallas. > > Do we have a draft of the revised charter? > > James > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --047d7ba977ae9c7ec2051b6421ca Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The chairs along with the AD have one.=C2=A0 We will hopef= ully present later this evening for the working group to consider for updat= es/revision.

Justin Dean

On Tue, Jul 21, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Jame= s Nguyen <james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

We talked about revising the charter at the IETF 92 in Dallas.

Do we have a draft of the revised charter?

James

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--047d7ba977ae9c7ec2051b6421ca-- From nobody Tue Jul 21 08:29:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62A01A89F9 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.378 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.378 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fzLPP5qNV9cc for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vn0-x22a.google.com (mail-vn0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c0f::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAE4A1A8A06 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by vnav141 with SMTP id v141so37170379vna.0 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=t7mGsn16D/NxR6mr+QAYAsGHU7gkYW/w1PIbbvfSUsQ=; b=aM4f58NZcd8L/mSsewWrda8HSplESZnyu8AlzIRhz4IyTz9c7Yd182Gw6NNPk+8Xx6 PcjXPS8HvVQQ8x+MJJwuUdIIl/cHuCZG5PSiH74x+s547+QrRspaJpjSND5uFM99BxP3 MQqTMHJehIaD3Rl2N3JCf7iMRz52f7S16n3rk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=t7mGsn16D/NxR6mr+QAYAsGHU7gkYW/w1PIbbvfSUsQ=; b=KA2qQAGY1bXZSLaUlCi/wom9592+rgHtjscTeBcNCSnsI2YiuGoUiTL6LIrB9Y/T/w X3AlEv9GcyEH2ksyVmJS5/qqN0LrUwMYKJ36KOmyk02GA/FO1N17KPSDatGeq2/M5eXG jnKJhl1P9wzDudzOuSqn9/S+RCW0fOemCXDjGKLPEhon92TDkRziqlZN+e3MQQkpJxS8 IC9ywUbliR6eUhXdRSvZxrMRrv6VGxszgDFKXPvoMBARtrpg8RdouPDzMJ1qBtv59SM7 svxxHt54qUcSO/e/ywB+ehA5h1KmYYM6TocbHw7jfN5BqYXX8+fQTB40z2qShboFAgW/ wEiw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQliEa7KG4o0fefPgWlGg6EC0CCGSaIkmWJXF/zU1iHbfHnAz9qJhe3KQEkrmxdI1FyScP20 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.52.12.103 with SMTP id x7mr43640065vdb.70.1437492592139; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.97.130 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:29:52 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: manet@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Volunteers for scribe / minutes takers X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:29:54 -0000 As usual, we need a jabber scribe and one -- ideally two -- minutes takers. Volunteering is much appreciated! Please let me know if you want to help. Thanks Ulrich From nobody Tue Jul 21 08:55:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7A821A8A97; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Q3b3ItnvrIj; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x234.google.com (mail-wi0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4E671A8997; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wicmv11 with SMTP id mv11so45604551wic.0; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:55:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=zXwkEwT2wIOMOWwKud25bXYphn7Hx2KtVPV4B6WNuQM=; b=xLvVrjcVRlmVxZzl8Ocj5thNQClWUE6NsoX9BpISu7vDshf0gtW8gLiGj8/AKOOJG8 FUJw+Uuy027nFgLXOAfr3JpScjKq3Aa8qISQ834MlEDq84qUmmhuCR5VylXmC93Royf8 +2bfgDWsVID5j04/fK12l9wLprdtLYZjMTOxRPRRWwPgxKrKPoXe4VyzYufH5zIj1XTx BWA60Uk9nkAc37DZz7kTCqZ43VP+UreSWSkSL0yk//KPOdKpR6bKoQgCQwj+H7uzYLdp Z1B1kHfCX+n4hPXWw8cuLbVoP7Dn2K7mMCJxEyzYyVcIvspmoOGA0+RktzeBV7MlTmo5 eUdg== X-Received: by 10.180.109.136 with SMTP id hs8mr33088862wib.73.1437494152564; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.50.7] ([178.17.7.229]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id qq1sm37698143wjc.0.2015.07.21.08.55.51 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Jul 2015 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT) References: <20150721141924.18436.80275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <55AE60F8.7060905@labn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: <55AE60F8.7060905@labn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6F94FD28-3615-4D12-8BC6-95024C437F5C@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12H143) From: Stan Ratliff Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 17:55:50 +0200 To: Lou Berger Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 15:55:56 -0000 Lou, Our intent is to respond to your email on-list, with a point-by-point respon= se of what's been done to date to address the issues you've raised. Apologie= s for not getting that done sooner, it's just been a hectic couple of weeks.= Will get that out sometime tonight or tomorrow morning. Regards, Stan Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 21, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: >=20 > Authors, > What are your plans to respond to the issues raised in the (my) > RtgDir review? >=20 > Typically each raised issue is discussed on the list, with a proposed > resolution from authors, discussion with the WG, and a clear resolution > being agreed upon in order to close the issue. I think we've only > discussed a few of the raised issues. >=20 > Thanks, > Lou >=20 >> On 7/21/2015 4:19 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. >> This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of t= he IETF. >>=20 >> Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP) >> Authors : Stan Ratliff >> Bo Berry >> Cisco Systems >> Darryl Satterwhite >> Rick Taylor >> Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt >> Pages : 66 >> Date : 2015-07-21 >>=20 >> Abstract: >> When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over >> wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the >> characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make >> routing decisions. In mobile or other environments where these >> characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the >> inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not >> allow the router to make the best decisions. A bidirectional, event- >> driven communication channel between the router and the modem is >> necessary. >>=20 >>=20 >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ >>=20 >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 >>=20 >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 >>=20 >>=20 >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >>=20 >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> manet mailing list >> manet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet From nobody Tue Jul 21 09:03:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 675FA1A90C8 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:03:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.667 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.667 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EkOvkf2aWioX for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.38.55]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 469E01A8F46 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 09:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 11628 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jul 2015 16:03:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by gproxy5.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 21 Jul 2015 16:03:25 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw4 with id v43L1q0182SSUrH0143PRM; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:03:25 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=BucOn+n5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=f5113yIGAAAA:8 a=wU2YTnxGAAAA:8 a=iEhmfDb7q88A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=dr_nVhjhPkAA:10 a=zOBTXjUuO1YA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=48vgC7mUAAAA:8 a=gGDAE8sFeKmja5pGCOUA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:CC:To:From; bh=MBwNMOpkVNRW/5OY07AusXSrjkYqaCtXOiCTrPrzzEY=; b=iCgw0Y/Hb5lM7iQbDqumzWSn5gH3dK9T1QsHf68fCKGZqOwebfVe7AtbDLm1cJBD87Rhm4AOolzW/YPkXFkIr+1UOxcEMglWSjoNeFE5oFMx1BszzaUjtriQP1eQBHvM; Received: from [31.133.138.5] (port=47114) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHa0l-0001on-Vx; Tue, 21 Jul 2015 10:03:20 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: Stan Ratliff Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 18:03:19 +0200 Message-ID: <14eb15ad1a0.2818.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <6F94FD28-3615-4D12-8BC6-95024C437F5C@gmail.com> References: <20150721141924.18436.80275.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <55AE60F8.7060905@labn.net> <6F94FD28-3615-4D12-8BC6-95024C437F5C@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.6.0 AquaMail/1.5.7.29 (build: 21070094) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 31.133.138.5 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2015 16:03:36 -0000 Sounds great, thank you. Lou On July 21, 2015 5:56:18 PM Stan Ratliff wrote: > Lou, > > Our intent is to respond to your email on-list, with a point-by-point > response of what's been done to date to address the issues you've raised. > Apologies for not getting that done sooner, it's just been a hectic couple > of weeks. Will get that out sometime tonight or tomorrow morning. > > Regards, > Stan > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 21, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > > > > Authors, > > What are your plans to respond to the issues raised in the (my) > > RtgDir review? > > > > Typically each raised issue is discussed on the list, with a proposed > > resolution from authors, discussion with the WG, and a clear resolution > > being agreed upon in order to close the issue. I think we've only > > discussed a few of the raised issues. > > > > Thanks, > > Lou > > > >> On 7/21/2015 4:19 PM, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > >> This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of > the IETF. > >> > >> Title : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP) > >> Authors : Stan Ratliff > >> Bo Berry > >> Cisco Systems > >> Darryl Satterwhite > >> Rick Taylor > >> Filename : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16.txt > >> Pages : 66 > >> Date : 2015-07-21 > >> > >> Abstract: > >> When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over > >> wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the > >> characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make > >> routing decisions. In mobile or other environments where these > >> characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the > >> inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not > >> allow the router to make the best decisions. A bidirectional, event- > >> driven communication channel between the router and the modem is > >> necessary. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ > >> > >> There's also a htmlized version available at: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 > >> > >> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-dlep-16 > >> > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> manet mailing list > >> manet@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > manet mailing list > > manet@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > From nobody Wed Jul 22 00:13:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33BEA1ACE26 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:13:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.209 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.209 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TfI715CQqoWW for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (qproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [173.254.64.10]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 214281ACE2B for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9024 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jul 2015 07:13:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw4) (10.0.90.85) by qproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2015 07:13:24 -0000 Received: from box817.bluehost.com ([66.147.244.117]) by cmgw4 with id vJtJ1q00H2Yhrsa01JtMD7; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:53:24 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=BucOn+n5 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=1ZWhLoquM75l/9xp6o4QLQ==:117 a=1ZWhLoquM75l/9xp6o4QLQ==:17 a=cNaOj0WVAAAA:8 a=f5113yIGAAAA:8 a=KWLd9SN1AAAA:8 a=dXeZ1uqweWsA:10 a=jPJDawAOAc8A:10 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=MKtGQD3n3ToA:10 a=1oJP67jkp3AA:10 a=ZZnuYtJkoWoA:10 a=6U2dO19vvw8A:10 a=JMHYQVG13d8A:10 a=zOBTXjUuO1YA:10 a=N1z6yVdWAAAA:8 a=vq3wAgknXLJywpynB6wA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=L1_wpxCUxMAA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sdiwc.info; s=default; h=Message-ID:Subject:To:From:Date:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=tJ1biGsBsEThTNG56N5/g4A4Z8CcBl97tMPGUFyU/yk=; b=DLRm/x3porCPenEi07cKuaJoNRe7GVc9t45lIOOb6+GvTo32W8MkSySTP892ebdxcFoxSkOT+SYfNJj7AGFSjldmk9z75XHmeCZYFJ6n940cXZjLI0z8pkEiyryUFLUs; Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51179 helo=box817.bluehost.com) by box817.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1ZHnu2-0006iU-Cb for manet@ietf.org; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:53:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 00:53:16 -0600 From: Jackie Blanco To: manet@ietf.org Message-ID: X-Sender: jackie@sdiwc.info User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.0.5 X-Identified-User: {1337:box817.bluehost.com:sdiwcnet:sdiwc.info} {sentby:smtp auth 127.0.0.1 authed with jackie@sdiwc.info} Archived-At: Subject: [manet] =?utf-8?q?=E2=98=8E_Second_Computer_Graphics=2C_Multimedi?= =?utf-8?q?a_and_Image_Processing_-_2015_Malaysia?= X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 07:13:25 -0000 The Second International Conference on Computer Graphics, Multimedia and Image Processing (CGMIP2015) Universitas Siswa Bangsa Internasional Jakarta, Indonesia October 29-31, 2015 http://sdiwc.net/conferences/cgmip2015/ cgmip15@sdiwc.net ---------------------------------------------- CALL FOR PAPERS, WORKSHOP and SPECIAL SESSIONS ---------------------------------------------- Research topics not limited to: - 3D imaging - Case studies and emerging technologies - Color and texture - Computational geometry - Computer art and entertainment (including games) - Case studies - Classification and clustering techniques - Compression methods - Computer animation - Curves and meshes - e-Learning applications and computer graphics - Emerging technologies - Emerging display technologies - Face recognition, face detection, and gesture recognition - Fractal geometry and applications - Graphics algorithms and applications - Graph theory in image processing and vision - Human-computer interfaces - Image compression, coding, and encryption - Image feature extraction - Image geometry and multi-view geometry - Immersive virtual reality - Interactive digital media - Simulation and virtual reality - Software tools for virtual reality - Surface modeling - Virtual environments - Virtual laboratories - Virtual reality, visualization, and education - Visualization All registered papers will be included in SDIWC Digital Library, and in the proceedings of the conference. All submitted papers will be reviewed by a minimum of two reviewers. The published proceedings will be indexed in ResearchBib, in addition, they will be reviewed for POSSIBLE inclusion within the INSPEC, EI, DBLP, Microsoft Academic Research, ResearchGate, and Google Scholar Databases. Important Dates =============== Submission Deadline: September 29, 2015 Notification of Acceptance: 2-4 weeks from the submission date Camera Ready Submission: October 19, 2015 Registration Deadline: October 19, 2015 Conference Dates: October 29-31, 2015 From nobody Wed Jul 22 05:53:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F0A71A1B5D; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6FqmGO-q7MwK; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-la0-x233.google.com (mail-la0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c03::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD3721A1A39; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by laah7 with SMTP id h7so5967603laa.0; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=22GlTooqd1rBiu6UF/Ee/nx3l6o5JbYd8GXeplQNhOI=; b=lQkZACZXJPGWnevKYnKjX5Ck1xoUBy/+NWK1N5p1Pf+HCOovMp0leL4lEvYO9Jxy9n Lt04YWbRoI1Bkr34YJi8Sb/BGGWwWm1Pa/kEL+WeK649zFeMpAC00xdQD5Bzrl7yLj1H /UBa9AdkOq7NIAUEvbhsayqF+zW0vK9fEFq1RNh2EAaE0jNPvb2v8N2BGexYDsbocPmF PxHjL0E3DIlrNikF/KrWng2ncdOC0O/hmZXfXrNbhcMpvaCUZ+Zqx5JG+QuQaUVxx3LV TKr10k9G0XSggX4wcWAc+xssahLO8JD+YJOdRhRTbEEybfiVYFDAOzxCQume91o+xuFd 5o/w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.105.104 with SMTP id gl8mr2217188lbb.81.1437569578179; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:52:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.214.149 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 05:52:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> References: <5575E8A7.6030508@labn.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:52:57 -0400 Message-ID: From: Stan Ratliff To: Lou Berger Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11347b180c2505051b7640ef Archived-At: Cc: manet-ads@ietf.org, draft-ietf-manet-dlep.all@ietf.org, MANET IETF , manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] RtgDir review: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 12:53:06 -0000 --001a11347b180c2505051b7640ef Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (email co-authored by Rick Taylor and Stan Ratliff) Lou, Based on the DLEP-16, posted July 21, here is where we (the author team) believe we are. Review comments/questions are welcome, my comments are inline: On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 3:10 PM, Lou Berger wrote: > [Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.] > > Hello, > > I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this > draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or > routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG > review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as was the > case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the > Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please > see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/RtgDir > > Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chairs and) > Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with > any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve > them through discussion or by updating the draft. > > Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14 > Reviewer: Lou Berger > Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comments -- > sorry) > WG LC End Date: unknown > Intended Status: Standards track > > Summary: > > While I think the document is pretty decent for the scope of the > work, I do have concerns about this document and recommend that the > WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the authors. > I'm also available as/if needed to discuss. > > Comments: > > I think the document shows significant good work and looks to be a > useful protocol, although I'm not overly familiar in this space. > That said, I have a number of serious concerns about the document, > and its contents from a few of perspectives. These include basic > protocol issues, underspecified details (which could lead to > interoperability issues), and specification/editorial issues. I > think the document / protocol can be modified to address the issues > I raise below. Of course, it is up to the WG, chairs, and ADs to > decide which comments to address and which to ignore. > I don't expect that all comments will result in changes. > > Major Issues: > > - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is only 8 > bits. While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the unit of measure, > which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, allowing for > larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't enough. -- > We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pain. > The generic data item length has been changed to 16 bits. > > - Version number is currently defined as a data item. This means a > signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully parsed to > discover what version is being used. This precludes basic format > changes to the protocol. Perhaps the Discovery and Init Signals > should be special cased to include version in their formats. (And > shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below). > Version numbers have been completely eliminated from the protocol. > > - The document references, but does not define, 'in-session' and > 'discovery' states. These either need to be formally defined or > removed. BTW we had exactly the same issue with LMP (RFC4204) and > ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late stage of the > process. > > - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relationship > with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined. For example: > > o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one place and in a > way that is inconsistent with the expected protocol behavior > (close TCP before ACK is received). > > o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can the TCP > session be reused or must it be closed too? > > - There is no transaction model defined. For example, it's > completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal allowed at a > time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, or perhaps > there are no restrictions. This needs to be explicit. > We have attempted to better document all of the above. Section 5 has been expanded to include more state information; section 6 makes a brief (but, we believe, succinct) reference to the transaction model. > > - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP? Retries > aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey they are being used. > Retries might be needed in cases where one of the DLEP peers (typically, the modem) is overloaded with respect to memory or CPU. I don't have a specific example, but can see the need for a status code basically saying "Couldn't do this, because I'm busy right now. This is a transient condition." Hence, we allowed for retries even over TCP. > > - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't really > clear. It seems ACKs are defined for multiple purposes: reliable > transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction results. Of > course the first isn't needed, and implications of the others > should be clear. For example, in section 7.10, why would there be > a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal indicating an > error? > In the case you cite (Destination Up ACK with an error), the originator of the request may want to retry based on what the status code is - in the transient, low-on-memory condition above, for example, a Destination Up message could be retried at a later time. In the case of Destination Up, getting a negative acknowledgement means that the DLEP peer hasn't allocated any resources to the destination; you won't get any metrics for it, you couldn't instantiate the credit windowing (if you were using that extension), and so on. Also, we have renamed ACKs to "Responses" in the -16 draft to further clarify, and the text cited in section 7.10 has been removed. > > - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there really > none? For example, how often might be appropriate to issue/limit > Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how to handle > the case where a large number (all or most) of destinations go > down. > There can be scaling considerations with respect to Peer Update, depending on what is done with the DLEP data that is delivered. During the protocol design, we purposefully stuck to the issue of "what data would be interesting and useful over this control channel", and also purposefully stayed *away* from "and here's what you would *do* with that data once you get it." The consensus was that trying to attack the second issue (e.g., what will a router do with the link metric data it receives) was the equivalent of "boiling the ocean", as we could have many a discussion about how the data could/should/might effect things like route cost calculations, QoS shapers, etc. > > - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementation to > define their own 'heuristics'. Some of these seem unnecessary due > to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in the protocol > should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consistent > behavior from implementations. > We have removed as many of these as possible in the -16 draft. > > - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "Experimental > Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8). Both seem to support for > optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned numeric values, > why the latter uses UTF-8 strings. > o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationship between > these? > o How does an "Experimental Definition" become standardized? > The Experimental Definitions, and the UTF-8 strings, have been removed. > > - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related Data Items. The > definition related to these basically says a resources is "An > 8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amount of > resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.". If I were > implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how to produce, > update or use this information. I think there is some missing > informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to these > formats. > - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a similar > problem of being under described, in particular it's unclear if > there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition for link quality > that an implementation is to act on or if the passed value is just > passed for as monitoring information. Either way, this needs to > be clarified. > these data items were "inherited" from RFC 5578. We have attempted to clarify some more in the -16 draft. > > - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous to the one > documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credits are exchanged, > but it provides zero definition on the implications or use of > credits relative to the data plane. > The credit windowing section has undergone a re-work, and hopefully explains the implications relative to the data plane. > > - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g., > optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port. Generally > allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability > issues. The document should pick one way and require it. > We have kept some of the optional behaviours, but have carefully checked that we have a good balance between flexible and strictly defined. > > - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering requirements > on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., there are no > ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items within > Signals. > We have added text saying there are no ordering requirements on data items. > > - The required and optional data items that are permitted on a > signal isn't always clear. For example are 0/1/N copies of a > particular Data Item required/allowed. Using something like ABNF > would really help formalize and clarify this. > We tried to write some RBNF, but I didn't find the result any clearer than the explicit text we have with each signal, so it hasn't been included= . > > - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative/narrative > text, normative / required processing procedures, and message > formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major issue, it just > makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the protocol. > What is a major issue is that this approach allows for duplicate > (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and for > omissions in procedures (particularly related to exception/error > processing). Specific examples are included above and below. It > would be best to ensure that each required processing behavior is > defined just once and in a consistent way. > > - The security consideration section is inadequate. This section > should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not user > traffic. It should include an analysis of risks/threats/possible > exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol. rfc6952, > and the protocols it references can serve as examples. > We have reworked the security considerations section as well. We have an informal meet with Stephen Farrell for guidance, but we think the text in draft-16 is much improved. > > Minor Issues: > > - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits. This seems > pretty small, particularly the data type field. Given this is a > control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type) field > would provide better "future proofing". > Type fields have been changed to 16 bits. > > - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1). This seems a > bit excessive. I'd opt for max of 8 bits here myself. > As mentioned earlier, the versioning TLVs have been removed. > > - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleaner to have a > generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. I mention > this here as this may come up again when clarifying the > transaction model (as mentioned above.) > That was discussed, but the consensus that formed in the WG was that specific ACKs were "better". > > - Section 2: Assumptions > This section includes informative and normative text so is more > than just Assumptions. Personally, I'd remove all normative text > from the section. > > - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation. > We hope we have addressed this. In reality we just use 'regular' UDP, no exciting IP options or source addresses, etc. > > - Sections 8.10->8.17. Isn't add/drop indicator needed for subnets > in destination update signals? > Consensus from the WG was to not have an add/drop indicator on subnets as we didn't want DLEP to be accused of being a routing protocol. > > - The IANA Considerations sections must follow=E2=80=8B RFC2360. > > - New registries must include initial values, which are defined in > the document. (The document currently has many TBDs that should > be replaced.) > > - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.: > The registry should be established with registration policies of > "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) and > =E2=80=9CSpecification Required" (for other documents). The designate= d > expert is any current WG chair. > We think we have addressed this. There are now full specification of the subdivision of the number-space of all requested registries. > > Nits: > > - The document introduces the terms "signals" and "data items" for > what is commonly called "messages" and "TLVs" (or objects) in > other protocols. It's probably too late to change this, but I > think the introduction of unique terminology is counter > productive. > We have changed the terminology to "messages" and "data items". The term "Signal" is now used *only* to refer to the UDP discovery packets. > > - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and there are > words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Take a look at > http://trac.tools.ietf.org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some > suggestions. > We have removed/fixed a lot of the RFC 2119 text. > > - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times. It > really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavior on the wire. > All references to sockets has gone. We have tried to use TCP state text instead. > > - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably octets) > Fixed > > - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really add value, > suggest dropping them. > Fixed. > > - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent? > When an implementation receives a correctly formatted message with a type code it does not recognise. > > - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable length > field. > Now with extra ellipsis ;) > > - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable length > field. > Experiments have been removed. Regards, Your DLEP author team. > That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anything. Look forward > to hearing response to the above (and how I got things hopelessly wrong ;= -) > > Lou > > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --001a11347b180c2505051b7640ef Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(email co-authored by Rick Taylor and Stan Ratliff)


Lou,=C2=A0

Based on th= e DLEP-16, posted July 21, here is where we (the author team) believe we ar= e. Review comments/questions are welcome, my comments are inline:


On Mon, Jun = 8, 2015 at 3:10 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">[Note this is a WG LC related review, not IETF LC.]

Hello,

I have been selected as the Routing Directorate reviewer for this
draft. The Routing Directorate seeks to review all routing or
routing-related drafts as they pass through IETF last call and IESG
review, and sometimes on special request -- or WG Last call as was the
case here . The purpose of the review is to provide assistance to the
Routing ADs. For more information about the Routing Directorate, please
see =E2=80=8Bhttp://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg= /trac/wiki/RtgDir

Although these comments are primarily for the use of the (chairs and)
Routing ADs, it would be helpful if you could consider them along with
any other Last Call comments that you receive, and strive to resolve
them through discussion or by updating the draft.

Document: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-14
Reviewer: Lou Berger
Review Date: June 8 (later than requested due to scope of comments -- sorry= )
WG LC End Date: unknown
Intended Status: Standards track

Summary:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 While I think the document is pretty decent for the scope of = the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 work, I do have concerns about this document and recommend th= at the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 WG Chairs/Routing ADs discuss these issues further with the a= uthors.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I'm also available as/if needed to discuss.

Comments:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I think the document shows significant good work and looks to= be a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 useful protocol, although I'm not overly familiar in this= space.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That said, I have a number of serious concerns about the docu= ment,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and its contents from a few of perspectives.=C2=A0 These incl= ude basic
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 protocol issues, underspecified details=C2=A0 (which could le= ad to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interoperability issues), and specification/editorial issues.= I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 think the document / protocol can be modified to address the = issues
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I raise below.=C2=A0 Of course, it is up to the WG, chairs, a= nd ADs to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 decide which comments to address and which to=C2=A0 ignore. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I don't expect that all comments will result in changes.<= br>
Major Issues:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The length field of the generic data item (i.e., TLV) is on= ly 8
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bits.=C2=A0 While 255 bytes (assuming that this is the= unit of measure,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 which BTW isn't specified) is big enough today, al= lowing for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 larger will greatly simplify things when 255 isn't= enough. --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 We've run into this in RSVP and it's a real pa= in.

The generic data item length has be= en changed to 16 bits.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Version number is currently defined as a data item.=C2=A0 T= his means a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signal (i.e., message) needs to be potentially fully p= arsed to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 discover what version is being used.=C2=A0 This preclu= des basic format
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 changes to the protocol.=C2=A0 Perhaps the Discovery a= nd Init Signals
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be special cased to include version in their fo= rmats.=C2=A0 (And
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 shorten version to 8 bits from 32, as mentioned below)= .

Version numbers have been completely = eliminated from the protocol.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document references, but does not define, 'in-sessi= on' and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 'discovery' states.=C2=A0 These either need to= be formally defined or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 removed.=C2=A0 BTW we had exactly the same issue with = LMP (RFC4204) and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ended up adding section 11 (FSMs) at a pretty late sta= ge of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 process.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - TCP session management is not defined, nor is the relations= hip
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with TCP and DLEP sessions fully defined.=C2=A0 For ex= ample:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o Closing the TCP session is only mentioned in one pla= ce and in a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 way that is inconsistent with the expected prot= ocol behavior
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (close TCP before ACK is received).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o What happens when a DLEP session is terminated, can = the TCP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 session be reused or must it be closed too?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There is no transaction model defined.=C2=A0 For example, i= t's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 completely unclear if only one unacknowledged Signal a= llowed at a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 time, or perhaps just one per signal type is allowed, = or perhaps
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there are no restrictions.=C2=A0 This needs to be expl= icit.

We have attempted to better docum= ent all of the above. Section 5 has been expanded to include more state inf= ormation; section 6 makes a brief (but, we believe, succinct) reference to = the transaction model.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - What is the purpose of retries and timeouts over TCP?=C2=A0= Retries
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 aren't needed over TCPs and it's unclear whey = they are being used.

Retries might be n= eeded in cases where one of the DLEP peers (typically, the modem) is overlo= aded with respect to memory or CPU. I don't have a specific example, bu= t can see the need for a status code basically saying "Couldn't do= this, because I'm busy right now. This is a transient condition."= Hence, we allowed for retries even over TCP.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The higher level implications of ACKs, over TCP, isn't = really
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 clear.=C2=A0 It seems ACKs are defined for multiple pu= rposes: reliable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transport, transaction acknowledgment and transaction = results. Of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 course the first isn't needed, and implications of= the others
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be clear.=C2=A0 For example, in section 7.10, w= hy would there be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a retry when receiving a Destination Up ACK signal ind= icating an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 error?

In the case= you cite (Destination Up ACK with an error), the originator of the request= may want to retry based on what the status code is - in the transient, low= -on-memory condition above, for example, a Destination Up message could be = retried at a later time. In the case of Destination Up, getting a negative = acknowledgement means that the DLEP peer hasn't allocated any resources= to the destination; you won't get any metrics for it, you couldn't= instantiate the credit windowing (if you were using that extension), and s= o on.=C2=A0

Also, we have renamed ACKs to "Re= sponses" in the -16 draft to further clarify, and the text cited in se= ction 7.10 has been removed.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There is no discussion on scaling considerations. Are there= really
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 none?=C2=A0 For example, how often might be appropriat= e to issue/limit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Peer Updates based to changes in link quality, or how = to handle
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the case where a large number (all or most) of destina= tions go
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 down.

There can be= scaling considerations with respect to Peer Update, depending on what is d= one with the DLEP data that is delivered. During the protocol design, we pu= rposefully stuck to the issue of "what data would be interesting and u= seful over this control channel", and also purposefully stayed *away* = from "and here's what you would *do* with that data once you get i= t." The consensus was that trying to attack the second issue (e.g., wh= at will a router do with the link metric data it receives) was the equivale= nt of "boiling the ocean", as we could have many a discussion abo= ut how the data could/should/might effect things like route cost calculatio= ns, QoS shapers, etc.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There are 13 places where the protocol allows implementatio= n to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 define their own 'heuristics'.=C2=A0 Some of t= hese seem unnecessary due
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to the TCP point raised above, but any that remain in = the protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should be fully specified to ensure predictable/consis= tent
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 behavior from implementations.
We have removed as many of these as possible in the -16 draft.= =C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Data Items are defined for "Extensions" and "= ;Experimental
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Definition" (Sections 8.7 and 8.8).=C2=A0 Both se= em to support for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional mechanisms, but the former uses assigned nume= ric values,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 why the latter uses UTF-8 strings.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o What, if any, is the intended distinction/relationsh= ip between
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 these?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 o How does an "Experimental Definition" beco= me standardized?

The Experimental Defin= itions, and the UTF-8 strings, have been removed.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Sections 8.19 and 8.20 define "Resources" related= Data Items.=C2=A0 The
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 definition related to these basically says a resources= is "An
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8-bit integer percentage, 0-100, representing the amou= nt of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 resources allocated to receiving|transmitting data.&qu= ot;.=C2=A0 If I were
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 implementing this protocol, I'd have no idea how t= o produce,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 update or use this information.=C2=A0 I think there is= some missing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 informative and normative (RFC 2119) text related to t= hese
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 formats.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Sections 8.21 and 8.22 (Relative Link Quality) have a simil= ar
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 problem of being under described, in particular it'= ;s unclear if
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 there's a meaningful, non-proprietary definition f= or link quality
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 that an implementation is to act on or if the passed v= alue is just
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 passed for as monitoring information.=C2=A0 Either way= , this needs to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be clarified.

thes= e data items were "inherited" from RFC 5578. We have attempted to= clarify some more in the -16 draft. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 9 defines a "credit-windowing scheme analogous= to the one
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 documented in [RFC5578]". It describes how credit= s are exchanged,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 but it provides zero definition on the implications or= use of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 credits relative to the data plane.

The credit windowing section has undergone a re-work, and= hopefully explains the implications relative to the data plane. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e= .g.,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.=C2= =A0 Generally
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 allowing such complicates testing and leads to interop= erability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 issues.=C2=A0 The document should pick one way and req= uire it.

We have kept some of the optional behaviours, but have carefully c= hecked
that we have a good balance between flexible and = strictly defined.
=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document doesn't state if there are any ordering re= quirements
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 on data items. It should be explicit on this, e.g., th= ere are no
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ordering requirements on the placement of Data Items w= ithin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Signals.

We have a= dded text saying there are no ordering requirements on data items.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The required and optional data items that are permitted on = a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 signal isn't always clear.=C2=A0 For example are 0= /1/N copies of a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 particular Data Item required/allowed.=C2=A0 Using som= ething like ABNF
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would really help formalize and clarify this.

We trie= d to write some RBNF, but I didn't find the result any clearer
than the explicit text we have with each signal, so it hasn= 't been included.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document doesn't clearly delineate from informative= /narrative
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 text, normative / required processing procedures, and = message
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 formats. This by itself is not necessarily a major iss= ue, it just
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 makes it harder to (write,) review and implement the p= rotocol.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What is a major issue is that this approach allows for= duplicate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (and sometimes contradictory) normative procedures and= for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 omissions in procedures (particularly related to excep= tion/error
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 processing).=C2=A0 Specific examples are included abov= e and below.=C2=A0 It
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be best to ensure that each required processing = behavior is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined just once and in a consistent way.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The security consideration section is inadequate.=C2=A0 Thi= s section
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 should address the security of the DLEP protocol, not = user
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 traffic.=C2=A0 It should include an analysis of risks/= threats/possible
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 exploits and how these are mitigated by the protocol.= =C2=A0 rfc6952,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and the protocols it references can serve as examples.=

We have reworked the security consider= ations section as well.=C2=A0 = We have an informal meet with=C2=A0Stephen Farrell for guidance, but we think the text in draft-16= is much=C2=A0improved.=
=C2=A0

Minor Issues:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The data and signal type fields are both 8 bits.=C2=A0 This= seems
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pretty small, particularly the data type field.=C2=A0 = Given this is a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 control protocol, I think a larger (at least data type= ) field
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 would provide better "future proofing".
<= /blockquote>

Type fields have been changed to 16 bits.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - 2^32 versions are currently allowed (section 8.1).=C2=A0 Th= is seems a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 bit excessive.=C2=A0 I'd opt for max of 8 bits her= e myself.

As mentioned earlier, the ver= sioning TLVs have been removed.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - It's probably too late, but it probably would be cleane= r to have a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 generic ack signal rather than a per signal type ack. = I mention
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 this here as this may come up again when clarifying th= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transaction model (as mentioned above.)

That was discussed, but the consensus that formed in = the WG was that specific ACKs were "better".
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 2: Assumptions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This section includes informative and normative text s= o is more
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 than just Assumptions.=C2=A0 Personally, I'd remov= e all normative text
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 from the section.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - There are no specific rules related to UDP header formation= .

We hope we have addressed this.=C2=A0 In reality we just use 'regula= r' UDP,
no exciting IP options or source addres= ses, etc.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Sections 8.10->8.17.=C2=A0 Isn't add/drop indicator = needed for subnets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 in destination update signals?
Consensus from th= e WG was to not have an add/drop indicator on subnets
as= we didn't want DLEP to be accused of being a routing protocol.<= br>
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The IANA Considerations sections must follow=E2=80=8B RFC23= 60.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - New registries must include initial values, which are defin= ed in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the document.=C2=A0 (The document currently has many T= BDs that should
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 be replaced.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - New registries need an allocation policy, e.g.:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The registry should be established with registration policies= of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 "Standards Action" (for Standards Track documents) = and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =E2=80=9CSpecification Required" (for other documents). = The designated
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 expert is any current <fill-in> WG chair.

We thin= k we have addressed this.=C2=A0 There are now full specification of<= br style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">the subdivision of the number-space of all requested registries= .
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pa= dding-left:1ex">
Nits:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The document introduces the terms "signals" and &= quot;data items" for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 what is commonly called "messages" and "= ;TLVs" (or objects) in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 other protocols.=C2=A0 It's probably too late to c= hange this, but I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 think the introduction of unique terminology is counte= r
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 productive.

We hav= e changed the terminology to "messages" and "data items"= ;. The term "Signal" is now used *only* to refer to the UDP disco= very packets.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Use of RFC 2119 conformance language is a bit rough, and th= ere are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 words in all caps that are not defined in RFC2119. Tak= e a look at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://trac.tools.ietf.= org/wg/teas/trac/wiki/PSGuideline for some
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 suggestions.

We have removed/fixed a lot of the RFC 2= 119 text.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Internal socket operation is mentioned a couple of times.= =C2=A0 It
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 really shouldn't be, the spec should define behavi= or on the wire.

All references to sockets has gone.=C2=A0 We have tried to= use TCP state text
<= span style=3D"font-size:12.8000001907349px">instead.
=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The Length fields are missing unit of measure (presumably o= ctets)

Fixed
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - The Mnemonics are used basically once and don't really = add value,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 suggest dropping them.

=
Fixed.
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - How/when is the "Unknown Signal" Status Code sent= ?


When an implementation receiv= es a correctly formatted message with a
type code it doe= s not recognise.
=C2= =A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 8.7: Extension List should be shown as a variable l= ength
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field.

Now with extra ellipsis ;)
=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Section 8.8: Experiment List should be shown as a variable = length
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 field.

Experiments= have been removed.=C2=A0

Regards,
Your = DLEP author team.



That's it -- for now -- hopefully I didn't miss anything.=C2=A0 Loo= k forward
to hearing response to the above (and how I got things hopelessly wrong ;-)=

Lou



_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--001a11347b180c2505051b7640ef-- From nobody Wed Jul 22 08:07:55 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5EE1A00E6; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:07:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XvA1r93_Cf0B; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334F61A00A7; Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:07:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.1.0.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150722150747.13590.43474.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 08:07:47 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-11.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 15:07:53 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) Routing Authors : Charles E. Perkins Stan Ratliff John Dowdell Lotte Steenbrink Victoria Mercieca Filename : draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-11.txt Pages : 101 Date : 2015-07-22 Abstract: The revised Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) routing protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop networks. AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within the network in an on-demand fashion, offering rapid convergence in dynamic topologies. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-11 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-11 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jul 23 03:56:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490681A1B1F for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 03:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 939BcPLLfVBq for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 03:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta4.baesystems.com (ukmta4.baesystems.com [20.133.40.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6209A1A21B5 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 03:56:41 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,529,1432594800"; d="scan'208,217";a="2077114" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasodc005.greenlnk.net) ([10.108.52.29]) by ukmta4.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2015 11:56:40 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.15,529,1432594800"; d="scan'208,217";a="110226723" Received: from glkxh0001v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.32]) by baemasodc005.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 23 Jul 2015 11:56:39 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.193]) by GLKXH0001V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.32]) with mapi id 14.03.0224.002; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 11:56:39 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: "manet@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AODVv2 comments Thread-Index: AdDFNhmptbrHf8W/QfSEvCWZnpMYWA== Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:56:38 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D48219C9AGLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] AODVv2 comments X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:56:50 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D48219C9AGLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some comments from an incomplete review of -10 (-11 came too late, but I se= e few changes). Why incomplete? Partly time, partly here's enough to be going on with. What= 's not reviewed? Pretty much all of the actual algorithmic part of the prot= ocol. Not because I'm suggesting that doesn't need review, quite the contra= ry, but one thing at a time. Not yet ready for Last Call. "Version 2" doesn't appear in the draft title. (Not sure why only just noti= ced that.) Section 1, what's the difference between loop avoidance and loop freedom? Section 2 is missing IAR. (Haven't checked this section in detail, just not= iced that.) Throughout: inconsistency in using RFC 5444 and [RFC5444]. Section 3. AODVv2 doesn't support some things that OLSRv2 was required to s= upport, in particular using same address on multiple interfaces (with a lim= itation that made that practical) as some wanted unnumbered interfaces (Sta= n IIRC). Section 3 para 4 says route requests that can't be confirmed bidirectional = should be ignored. Why should and not must? Throughout: Much inconsistency in use of SHOULD vs should and MUST vs must.= (Former in normative sections, latter or avoid otherwise.) Haven't noticed= for MAY/may but worth checking. Section 4.2 last paragraph. I would have thought this was a MUST NOT. Section 4.3 second paragraph should (SHOULD) or MUST? I would have thought = latter, and I think some later text assumes latter. Also later in section. Section 4.4 para 3 can probably should be a 2119 word. Section 4.4 sequence numbers wrap, so at the least a comment that indicates= greater/less is according to that should be included. (An algorithm that p= roperly handles the 0 omission would help implementers.) Section 4.5 Is this table conceptual like that in 4.6? (Later in section us= es word comparable that wouldn't be my choice.) Section 4.6 has a broken paragraph. (Could easily be fixed in -11, haven't = checked.) Section 5, para 2, use of "or" seems wrong. Section 5.1. I don't like that non-hop-count metrics aren't described (as h= op count really isn't good enough in reality) and that adding a new metric = type means adding code. The latter is a design issue, so there is no right/= wrong here. Section 5.3. I don't understand why a stored invalid route can't be overwri= tten by a new higher metric route. (Sequence number, that I understand.) Section 6.2 is where I think bidirectionality becomes MUST, so earlier SHOU= LDs may be wrong. Section 6.2 states that if some other mechanism is present routes can be kn= own to be bidirectional. That's OK (I think). But then to say that RREP_ACK= s can be omitted is wrong, given that various places describe consequences = of missing RREP_ACKs, without considering this case. I think anything other= than always sending RREP_ACKs is not appropriate. Section 6.3 para 3 is I think unsupportable, to say that it's outside AODVv= 2 who regenerates messages. This is essential for compatible interoperabili= ty. Section 6.4 page 23 para 2 (ignoring incomplete). I can see "(albeit usuall= y positive)" being challenged. Section 6.4 page 23 para 3 why fixed buffer? And as this is supposed to be = IP's job, why specify? Section 6.4 page 23 para 4 using [RFC 3561] in this way as a SHOULD makes i= t a normative reference, which is a downref, and it's buried somewhere in t= hat reference without an indication. Should be pulled out and included in t= his document. Section 6.4 penultimate para last line, why SHOULD and not MUST? Section 6.5.2 made me realise a major omission. This is all about AODVv2's = tables. But at some point those need copying to IP's routing table (as addi= tions/updates/removals) and that's not discussed, and it's not listed in Ap= pendix A. Also all the text in the document uses the AODVv2 tables, which i= s fine when within AODVv2, but of course any IP packet unicast (I think mul= tiple unicast is noted as an alternative to multicast - and there's a comme= nt on future use of unicast) would use the IP table, so would need to get t= hat timing right. (Futureproofing in the latter case, but the multiple unic= ast may need thought.) Section 6.6 point 3, the equal case. I think it's obvious, but should say "= equal or better". (If that's wrong, it's not obvious.) May occur in other p= laces. Section 6.7.1 Active the do A or B at the least should indicate preference. Section 6.7.1 about using idle and active routes to forward packets, this i= s also where that is done by IP, so it should be about idle and active rout= es being in IP's table. Section 6.7.1 there's a mention of inferior matching routes. Not sure what'= s meant. Figures are described as message structure. They are message content. Struc= ture is 5444. (As worded there's a sort of suggestion of an alternative str= ucture, but this isn't that, as there's no indication how optional fields w= ould be handled.) Section 7.1.3, that situations where RREQs are not regenerated are not decl= ared makes me very uneasy. Section 12. I'm not sure it's up to this document to specify TBD numbers. I= also know from experience that IANA won't be happy with this presentation.= They need it spelled out in detail, add this entry to this table, and so o= n. Look at the various OLSRv2 documents for details (especially later ones)= . Already existing TLVs shouldn't be in the IANA section - this is instruct= ions to IANA what to do. If needed here, put in another section. Also why a= llocate a new SEQ_NUM TLV, I think the existing sequence number TLV (the ve= rsion named (COMPLETE) - I'd just say that once somewhere) will do. Section 12.4, I'd add an unspecified value, along the RFC 7188 line. Section 13, para 4, what's said is true, but it's not as simple as this mak= es it appear. (And there are issues of information leakage in other layers.) Section 13, use of sequence number as timestamp is good. Should think about= how fast 16 bits wraps and if that's an issue. (Not saying it is, just foo= d for thought.) Section 13, specifying TIMESTAMP data, suggest indicate algorithm number. I think Section 13 means that RFC 7182 should be a normative reference. Appendix A I think should be about two way interaction with IP, and is miss= ing IP routing table update. It's also very underspecified. For example the= ability to queue packets has requirements to add packet to queue, to flush= queue. Is it IP's responsibility to release queue when a route appears? Appendix D needs to have its normativeness indicated. Is the description in= the main body (which as I note I haven't reviewed) complete and normative,= and this is example? (That would handle if there's any mismatch.) Otherwis= e things get messy. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence __________________________________________________________________________ T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D48219C9AGLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Some comments from an incomplete review of -10 (-11 = came too late, but I see few changes).

 

Why incomplete? Partly time, partly here’s eno= ugh to be going on with. What’s not reviewed? Pretty much all of the = actual algorithmic part of the protocol. Not because I’m suggesting t= hat doesn’t need review, quite the contrary, but one thing at a time. Not yet ready for Last Call.

 

“Version 2” doesn’t appear in the = draft title. (Not sure why only just noticed that.)

 

Section 1, what’s the difference between loop = avoidance and loop freedom?

 

Section 2 is missing IAR. (Haven’t checked thi= s section in detail, just noticed that.)

 

Throughout: inconsistency in using RFC 5444 and [RFC= 5444].

 

Section 3. AODVv2 doesn’t support some things = that OLSRv2 was required to support, in particular using same address on mu= ltiple interfaces (with a limitation that made that practical) as some want= ed unnumbered interfaces (Stan IIRC).

 

Section 3 para 4 says route requests that can’= t be confirmed bidirectional should be ignored. Why should and not must?

 

Throughout: Much inconsistency in use of SHOULD vs s= hould and MUST vs must. (Former in normative sections, latter or avoid othe= rwise.) Haven’t noticed for MAY/may but worth checking.

 

Section 4.2 last paragraph. I would have thought thi= s was a MUST NOT.

 

Section 4.3 second paragraph should (SHOULD) or MUST= ? I would have thought latter, and I think some later text assumes latter. = Also later in section.

 

Section 4.4 para 3 can probably should be a 2119 wor= d.

 

Section 4.4 sequence numbers wrap, so at the least a= comment that indicates greater/less is according to that should be include= d. (An algorithm that properly handles the 0 omission would help implemente= rs.)

 

Section 4.5 Is this table conceptual like that in 4.= 6? (Later in section uses word comparable that wouldn’t be my choice.= )

 

Section 4.6 has a broken paragraph. (Could easily be= fixed in -11, haven’t checked.)

 

Section 5, para 2, use of “or” seems wro= ng.

 

Section 5.1. I don’t like that non-hop-count m= etrics aren’t described (as hop count really isn’t good enough = in reality) and that adding a new metric type means adding code. The latter= is a design issue, so there is no right/wrong here.

 

Section 5.3. I don’t understand why a stored i= nvalid route can’t be overwritten by a new higher metric route. (Sequ= ence number, that I understand.)

 

Section 6.2 is where I think bidirectionality become= s MUST, so earlier SHOULDs may be wrong.

 

Section 6.2 states that if some other mechanism is p= resent routes can be known to be bidirectional. That’s OK (I think). = But then to say that RREP_ACKs can be omitted is wrong, given that various = places describe consequences of missing RREP_ACKs, without considering this case. I think anything other than alwa= ys sending RREP_ACKs is not appropriate.

 

Section 6.3 para 3 is I think unsupportable, to say = that it’s outside AODVv2 who regenerates messages. This is essential = for compatible interoperability.

 

Section 6.4 page 23 para 2 (ignoring incomplete). I = can see “(albeit usually positive)” being challenged.

 

Section 6.4 page 23 para 3 why fixed buffer? And as = this is supposed to be IP’s job, why specify?

 

Section 6.4 page 23 para 4 using [RFC 3561] in this = way as a SHOULD makes it a normative reference, which is a downref, and it&= #8217;s buried somewhere in that reference without an indication. Should be= pulled out and included in this document.

 

Section 6.4 penultimate para last line, why SHOULD a= nd not MUST?

 

Section 6.5.2 made me realise a major omission. This= is all about AODVv2’s tables. But at some point those need copying t= o IP’s routing table (as additions/updates/removals) and that’s= not discussed, and it’s not listed in Appendix A. Also all the text in the document uses the AODVv2 tables, which is fine when wi= thin AODVv2, but of course any IP packet unicast (I think multiple unicast = is noted as an alternative to multicast – and there’s a comment= on future use of unicast) would use the IP table, so would need to get that timing right. (Futureproofing in the latt= er case, but the multiple unicast may need thought.)

 

Section 6.6 point 3, the equal case. I think it̵= 7;s obvious, but should say “equal or better”. (If that’s= wrong, it’s not obvious.) May occur in other places.

 

Section 6.7.1 Active the do A or B at the least shou= ld indicate preference.

 

Section 6.7.1 about using idle and active routes to = forward packets, this is also where that is done by IP, so it should be abo= ut idle and active routes being in IP’s table.

 

Section 6.7.1 there’s a mention of inferior ma= tching routes. Not sure what’s meant.

 

Figures are described as message structure. They are= message content. Structure is 5444. (As worded there’s a sort of sug= gestion of an alternative structure, but this isn’t that, as there= 217;s no indication how optional fields would be handled.)

 

Section 7.1.3, that situations where RREQs are not r= egenerated are not declared makes me very uneasy.

 

Section 12. I’m not sure it’s up to this= document to specify TBD numbers. I also know from experience that IANA won= ’t be happy with this presentation. They need it spelled out in detai= l, add this entry to this table, and so on. Look at the various OLSRv2 documents for details (especially later ones). Already = existing TLVs shouldn’t be in the IANA section – this is instru= ctions to IANA what to do. If needed here, put in another section. Also why= allocate a new SEQ_NUM TLV, I think the existing sequence number TLV (the version named (COMPLETE) – I’d just s= ay that once somewhere) will do.

 

Section 12.4, I’d add an unspecified value, al= ong the RFC 7188 line.

 

Section 13, para 4, what’s said is true, but i= t’s not as simple as this makes it appear. (And there are issues of i= nformation leakage in other layers.)

 

Section 13, use of sequence number as timestamp is g= ood. Should think about how fast 16 bits wraps and if that’s an issue= . (Not saying it is, just food for thought.)

 

Section 13, specifying TIMESTAMP data, suggest indic= ate algorithm number.

 

I think Section 13 means that RFC 7182 should be a n= ormative reference.

 

Appendix A I think should be about two way interacti= on with IP, and is missing IP routing table update. It’s also very un= derspecified. For example the ability to queue packets has requirements to = add packet to queue, to flush queue. Is it IP’s responsibility to release queue when a route appears?

 

Appendix D needs to have its normativeness indicated= . Is the description in the main body (which as I note I haven’t revi= ewed) complete and normative, and this is example? (That would handle if th= ere’s any mismatch.) Otherwise things get messy.

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
__________________________= ________________________________________________

T:  +44 (0)1245 24= 2194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Appli= ed Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Esse= x CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

B= AE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guil= dford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

 

 

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03:28:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xC5ITvSvDb74; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F10A71A1EFF; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:28:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.2.0.p1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20150729102820.13032.83603.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:28:20 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:28:24 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. Title : Packet Sequence Number based directional airtime metric for OLSRv2 Authors : Henning Rogge Emmanuel Baccelli Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2015-07-29 Abstract: This document specifies an directional airtime link metric for usage in OLSRv2. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jul 29 03:31:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98C681A044F for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:31:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JunV4P7cmXa0 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wi0-x22f.google.com (mail-wi0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D08E61A023E for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by wibxm9 with SMTP id xm9so19721103wib.1 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:31:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; bh=kQ1jmM2Qg5LJyz2GJDlNKOkGsUIE/v+vnOItnWeqoKA=; b=oeVe5Gnltytl1OUm8FkB+rL5NgRTeSThaKaWytSRjF0pxSkxu27BeuT0mULAG678aq KHHu2l67T6SY+fFuNi4lleFul4/VXaLN8BWKvGd4n3l2nJY7SCPV2W/m4z2xf8yw5mkD PwPm5GLXcbeivGXcbKb7dSOaw/CEMFteihbk6asPhMSZvO0af4Jfs6hEu0Vqz6QRsbLR O92mfNOUOi78lblXf74yyv4YNxIFAS/BmPXj0tdSpYQSZ0oxuFl2NKenCWOGuyF/06HE qqNFQL62P3vjPWR8kC48vSyYD0jJLIxxWpWGMIuVXukX/AmMDVWHOXCcFw6bt6HnGScX cqwQ== X-Received: by 10.194.249.100 with SMTP id yt4mr80927886wjc.0.1438165870625; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:31:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.27.176.220 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 03:30:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150729102820.13032.83603.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20150729102820.13032.83603.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 12:30:41 +0200 Message-ID: To: MANET IETF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:31:13 -0000 Hi, based on a review Justin did in Prague I have published draft 06 of DAT. It contains a few editorial changes to make things easier to read and understand and two additional appendices. There are no normative changes. Henning Rogge On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 12:28 PM, wrote: > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of the IETF. > > Title : Packet Sequence Number based directional airtime metric for OLSRv2 > Authors : Henning Rogge > Emmanuel Baccelli > Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06.txt > Pages : 18 > Date : 2015-07-29 > > Abstract: > This document specifies an directional airtime link metric for usage > in OLSRv2. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-dat-metric-06 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet