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Message-ID: <CA+-pDCfkPB5Z0ZkR16uisx2LT6T9BuGvk8PA219NhyJrP-Pm+Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
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Subject: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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I've completed my review of the draft 13 of AODVv2.  Attached is my updated
with comments (marked JWD) and various inline fixes draft/review.   I've
also included a diff to illustrate the inline fixes.  I did not review the
security section.  I did have a few major comments which are marked with
JWD!

Justin

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I&#39;ve completed my review of the draft 13 of AODVv=
2.=C2=A0 Attached is my updated with comments (marked JWD) and various inli=
ne fixes draft/review.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I&#39;ve also included a diff to illustr=
ate the inline fixes.=C2=A0 I did not review the security section.=C2=A0 I =
did have a few major comments which are marked with JWD!<br></div><div><br>=
</div>Justin<br></div>

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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8C0227E6GLKXM0002VGREEN_--


From nobody Wed Mar  2 06:17:54 2016
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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:17:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 09:18:16 -0500
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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:02 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

> Obviously (if you consider time zones) I haven=E2=80=99t done more than s=
kim
> through Justin=E2=80=99s extensive comments.
>
>
>
> But I noticed one thing. (The text is the draft, the parenthesis is
> Justin=E2=80=99s comment.)
>
>
>
>    AODVv2 supports routers with multiple interfaces and multiple IP
>
>    addresses per interface.   (this should be disallowed as it can form
> non valid routes with uni-directional links JWD)
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t know what case Justin is suggesting, it would be useful t=
o have an
> example to determine if this is a problem or not. Or which of the two cas=
es
> (multiple interfaces or addresses) there=E2=80=99s a suggested problem wi=
th.
>
>

The issue arises when two routers have two interfaces, and those interfaces
are given the same address on each router, and those links are
uni-directional.  I'll attempt to illustrate.


              InterfaceA (192.168.1.1) --------------> InterfaceA
(192.168.1.2)
YRouter
ZRouter
              InterfaceB (192.168.1.1) <-------------  InterfaceB
(192.168.1.2)

YRouter sends a RREQ on both interfaces for 192.168.1.2.  ZRouter gets the
message on InterfaceA from 192.168.1.1. ZRouter response is a RREP
multicast (as there is not yet a confirmed route) with an Ack request.
YRouter receives the message on interface B from 192.168.1.2 and installs
the route to 192.168.1.2 on interfaceB. This is broken.  The ack reply,
from YRouter, will be sent unicast to Zrouter on InterfaceB  but will not
get there.  There is no way to know which interface a message was received
on when both interfaces have the same address. This is what should be
disallowed. As far as I can tell multiple addresses per interface is fine.

Justin

--001a113dc36e959544052d118dbb
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 5:02 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank=
">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Obviously (if you conside=
r time zones) I haven=E2=80=99t done more than skim through Justin=E2=80=99=
s extensive comments.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">But I noticed one thing. =
(The text is the draft, the parenthesis is Justin=E2=80=99s comment.)<u></u=
><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 AODVv2 supports=
 routers with multiple interfaces and multiple IP<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 addresses per interface.=C2=A0=C2=A0 (this sh=
ould be disallowed as it can form non valid routes with uni-directional lin=
ks JWD)</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I don=E2=80=99t know what=
 case Justin is suggesting, it would be useful to have an example to determ=
ine if this is a problem or not. Or which of the two cases (multiple
 interfaces or addresses) there=E2=80=99s a suggested problem with.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p>=C2=A0
</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The issue arises when two rout=
ers have two interfaces, and those interfaces are given the same address on=
 each router, and those links are uni-directional.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll attempt t=
o illustrate.<br><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 InterfaceA (192.168.1.1=
) --------------&gt; InterfaceA (192.168.1.2)<br></div><div>YRouter=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 ZRouter<br></div></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 InterfaceB (192.168.1.1) &lt;-------------=
=C2=A0 InterfaceB (192.168.1.2)<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">YRo=
uter sends a RREQ on both interfaces for 192.168.1.2.=C2=A0 ZRouter gets th=
e message on InterfaceA from 192.168.1.1. ZRouter response is a RREP multic=
ast (as there is not yet a confirmed route) with an Ack request. YRouter re=
ceives the message on interface B from 192.168.1.2 and installs the route t=
o 192.168.1.2 on interfaceB. This is broken.=C2=A0 The ack reply, from YRou=
ter, will be sent unicast to Zrouter on InterfaceB=C2=A0 but will not get t=
here.=C2=A0 There is no way to know which interface a message was received =
on when both interfaces have the same address. This is what should be disal=
lowed. As far as I can tell multiple addresses per interface is fine.<br><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Justin<br></div></div>

--001a113dc36e959544052d118dbb--


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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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From: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2: Security considerations update
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Hi Ulrich and MANET members,
[for some reason my e-mail Client ate Ulrich's e-mail so I've copy & =
pasted it, I hope that doesn't mess up the thread/formatting too much]

Thanks for your quick and thorough response!
The reason I'm getting back to you just now is that we're currently =
incorporating your comments into the document and I wanted to answer =
with at least some work in progress. Attached you'll find what we've =
changed so far (and a diff from the last version). There are still a lot =
of TODOs in there, but this is the direction we're currently going in =
and the changes we've made.  (The quotes you'll find after some TODOs =
are from BCP72)

One additional thing that's not in the document yet but maybe should be =
addresses is an additional scenario for 13.1.3 False Confirmation of =
Link Bidirectionality:
A malicious node could also immediately answer a RREQ with a RREP that =
has stellar metric values, causing the genuine RREP of the route that is =
actually established to be discarded.=20

Direct responses inline:

Ulrich Herberg <ulrich@herberg.name> Sat, 20 February 2016 16:41 UTC
> Hi Lotte,
>
> I agree with what Chris said.
>
> Can you clarify what you mean in your email by:
> "[...] (afaik) the Availability/Confidentiality/Integrity model may be
> considered a bit dated [...]"?

I've read that it can be a non-exhaustive classification and I had the =
suspicion that there are many more axes to cover.=20

> I have a few concerns with the proposed security considerations =
section:
>
> - BCP72 specifies:
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> "Authors MUST describe
>
>      1.   which attacks are out of scope (and why!)
>      2.   which attacks are in-scope
>      2.1  and the protocol is susceptible to
>      2.2  and the protocol protects against
>
>   At least the following forms of attack MUST be considered:
>   eavesdropping, replay, message insertion, deletion, modification, =
and
>   man-in-the-middle.  Potential denial of service attacks MUST be
>   identified as well.  If the protocol incorporates cryptographic
>   protection mechanisms, it should be clearly indicated which portions
>   of the data are protected and what the protections are (i.e.,
>   integrity only, confidentiality, and/or endpoint authentication,
>   etc.).  Some indication should also be given to what sorts of =
attacks
>   the cryptographic protection is susceptible.  Data which should be
>   held secret (keying material, random seeds, etc.) should be clearly
>   labeled.
> "
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
> I don't think all of the above MUSTs are addressed in the proposed
> text (see also below).

Indeed. I hope we've resolved this with this update.

>
>
> - I think the chain-of-trust model that doesn't allow end-to-end
> integrity protection is problematic in an entirely distributed and
> untrusted network environment. It's a bit like saying that you trust
> that an email sent to someone else is integrity protected because the
> step-wise SMTP between various mail servers along the path uses TLS.

Just for the record, we didn't resolve this with the current version.

> This brings me to the deeper issue of why messages are regenerated
> instead of forwarded. I have not understood why this is necessary in
> the first place (and I argued this in an email to the list at
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg18081.html)

The way I'm understanding the E-Mail you're citing, your issue with the =
word "regeneration" there is that overall regeneration is a more drastic =
measure than mere modification, and that this extra effort is =
unnecessary. That makes sense to me, but simple forwarding (and thus =
end-to-end protection?) of entirely unmodified messages won't be =
possible with AODVv2, since TLVs like Metric and ValidityTime and AckReq =
need to be updated hop by hop. Are you suggesting to add the option to =
exclude these TLVs during ICV calculation? I guess that would open the =
door to different attacks, but we could name "both sides" and let the =
implementers decide which is better for them? Or what am I =
misunderstanding here?
I guess the entire topic deserves its own thread...

>=20
> - The text in section 13.3.1  is hard to interpret as implementer,
> since it mixes a security evaluation with the actual specifications of
> how to protect the messages. I think it would be better to have
> separate sections for these two parts. Also, as a stylistic
> recommendation, I always had a hard time reading the continuous text
> as opposed to bullet points as we applied in OLSRv2.

Good point. We've restructured that section and tried to =
bullet-point-ify the overall document a bit more. What do you think?

>=20
> - I have some doubts that the Security ADs will agree with the terms
> "recommendations" in the title of the section together with a lot of
> SHOULDs and MAYs in the text, which seems to imply that usage of the
> integrity protection is not mandatory. When specifying OLSRv2, we were
> clearly told that we require a "MUST-implement/SHOULD use until you
> have something more better".

We've converted shoulds to SHOULDs now and the section doesn't contain =
MAYs or mays...

>=20
> - The Sec ADs required us for OLSRv2 to argue (in the spec) why we
> don't need to specify automatic key management as per BCP107. I don't
> see a similar section in AODVv2. Have you confirmed with the Sec ADs
> that their requirements have been relaxed?

Afaik not; has ben added as a TODO.

>
> - The biggest issue I have with the proposed security consideration
> text is that there is no detailed specification of how to sign and
> validate messages, similar to what we were required to do by the Sec
> ADs in RFC7183. I doubt that two AODVv2 implementations by different
> programmers would be interoperable just using the current text. You
> mention the functions specified in RFC7182; but really these are just
> the containers for the actual information. RFC7182 does not mandate
> how to use them (such as we do in RFC7183).
>

Written down in the current version, but could be more detailed and =
step-by-step based.

> Best regards
> Ulrich

Kind regards,
Lotte


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hi =
Ulrich and MANET members,<div>[for some reason my e-mail Client ate =
Ulrich's e-mail so I've copy &amp; pasted it, I hope that doesn't mess =
up the thread/formatting too much]</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for =
your quick and thorough response!</div><div>The reason I'm getting back =
to you just now is that we're currently incorporating your comments into =
the document and I wanted to answer with at least some work in progress. =
Attached you'll find what we've changed so far (and a diff from the last =
version). There are still a lot of TODOs in there, but this is the =
direction we're currently going in and the changes we've made. =
&nbsp;(The quotes you'll find after some TODOs are from =
BCP72)</div><div><br></div><div>One additional thing that's not in the =
document yet but maybe should be addresses is an additional scenario for =
13.1.3 False Confirmation of Link Bidirectionality:</div><div>A =
malicious node could also immediately answer a RREQ with a RREP that has =
stellar metric values, causing the genuine RREP of the route that is =
actually established to be =
discarded.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Direct responses =
inline:</div><div><br></div><div><span id=3D"msg-from" class=3D"pipe" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0.5em 0px 0px; padding: 0px 0.8em 0px 0px; =
border-width: 0px 1px 0px 0px; border-right-style: solid; =
border-right-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, =
Arial, sans-serif; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; =
color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Ulrich Herberg &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ulrich@herberg.name">ulrich@herberg.name</a>&gt;</span><spa=
n style=3D"color: rgb(102, 102, 102); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, =
Arial, sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);">&nbsp;</span><span id=3D"msg-date" class=3D"pipe" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0.5em 0px 0px; padding: 0px 0.8em 0px 0px; border-width: 0px 1px 0px =
0px; border-right-style: solid; border-right-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif; line-height: inherit; =
vertical-align: baseline; color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Sat, 20 February =
2016 16:41 UTC</span></div><div><div>&gt; Hi =
Lotte,</div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; I agree with what Chris =
said.</div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; Can you clarify what you mean in =
your email by:</div><div>&gt; "[...] (afaik) the =
Availability/Confidentiality/Integrity model may be</div><div>&gt; =
considered a bit dated [...]"?</div><div><br></div><div>I've read that =
it can be a non-exhaustive classification and I had the suspicion that =
there are many more axes to cover.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; I =
have a few concerns with the proposed security considerations =
section:</div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; - BCP72 specifies:</div><div>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div>&gt; =
"Authors MUST describe</div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;1. &nbsp; which attacks are out of scope (and why!)</div><div>&gt; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2. &nbsp; which attacks are in-scope</div><div>&gt; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2.1 &nbsp;and the protocol is susceptible =
to</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2.2 &nbsp;and the protocol =
protects against</div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; At least the =
following forms of attack MUST be considered:</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; =
eavesdropping, replay, message insertion, deletion, modification, =
and</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; man-in-the-middle. &nbsp;Potential denial of =
service attacks MUST be</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; identified as well. =
&nbsp;If the protocol incorporates cryptographic</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; =
protection mechanisms, it should be clearly indicated which =
portions</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; of the data are protected and what the =
protections are (i.e.,</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; integrity only, =
confidentiality, and/or endpoint authentication,</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; =
etc.). &nbsp;Some indication should also be given to what sorts of =
attacks</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; the cryptographic protection is =
susceptible. &nbsp;Data which should be</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; held =
secret (keying material, random seeds, etc.) should be =
clearly</div><div>&gt; &nbsp; labeled.</div><div>&gt; "</div><div>&gt; =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div>&gt;</=
div><div>&gt; I don't think all of the above MUSTs are addressed in the =
proposed</div><div>&gt; text (see also =
below).</div><div><br></div><div>Indeed. I hope we've resolved this with =
this update.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; =
- I think the chain-of-trust model that doesn't allow =
end-to-end</div><div>&gt; integrity protection is problematic in an =
entirely distributed and</div><div>&gt; untrusted network environment. =
It's a bit like saying that you trust</div><div>&gt; that an email sent =
to someone else is integrity protected because the</div><div>&gt; =
step-wise SMTP between various mail servers along the path uses =
TLS.</div><div><br></div><div>Just for the record, we didn't resolve =
this with the current version.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; This brings =
me to the deeper issue of why messages are regenerated</div><div>&gt; =
instead of forwarded. I have not understood why this is necessary =
in</div><div>&gt; the first place (and I argued this in an email to the =
list at</div><div>&gt; <a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg18081.html"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg18081.html</a>)</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The way I'm understanding the E-Mail you're =
citing, your issue with the word "regeneration" there is that overall =
regeneration is a more drastic measure than mere modification, and that =
this extra effort is unnecessary. That makes sense to me, but simple =
forwarding (and thus end-to-end protection?) of entirely unmodified =
messages won't be possible with AODVv2, since TLVs like Metric and =
ValidityTime and AckReq need to be updated hop by hop. Are you =
suggesting to add the option to exclude these TLVs during ICV =
calculation? I guess that would open the door to different attacks, but =
we could name "both sides" and let the implementers decide which is =
better for them? Or what am I misunderstanding here?</div><div>I guess =
the entire topic deserves its own =
thread...</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;</div><div>&gt; - The text =
in section 13.3.1 &nbsp;is hard to interpret as =
implementer,</div><div>&gt; since it mixes a security evaluation with =
the actual specifications of</div><div>&gt; how to protect the messages. =
I think it would be better to have</div><div>&gt; separate sections for =
these two parts. Also, as a stylistic</div><div>&gt; recommendation, I =
always had a hard time reading the continuous text</div><div>&gt; as =
opposed to bullet points as we applied in =
OLSRv2.</div><div><br></div><div>Good point. We've restructured that =
section and tried to bullet-point-ify the overall document a bit more. =
What do you think?</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;</div><div>&gt; - =
I have some doubts that the Security ADs will agree with the =
terms</div><div>&gt; "recommendations" in the title of the section =
together with a lot of</div><div>&gt; SHOULDs and MAYs in the text, =
which seems to imply that usage of the</div><div>&gt; integrity =
protection is not mandatory. When specifying OLSRv2, we =
were</div><div>&gt; clearly told that we require a =
"MUST-implement/SHOULD use until you</div><div>&gt; have something more =
better".</div><div><br></div><div>We've converted shoulds to SHOULDs now =
and the section doesn't contain MAYs or =
mays...</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;</div><div>&gt; - The Sec ADs =
required us for OLSRv2 to argue (in the spec) why we</div><div>&gt; =
don't need to specify automatic key management as per BCP107. I =
don't</div><div>&gt; see a similar section in AODVv2. Have you confirmed =
with the Sec ADs</div><div>&gt; that their requirements have been =
relaxed?</div><div><br></div><div>Afaik not; has ben added as a =
TODO.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt;</div><div>&gt; - The biggest issue I =
have with the proposed security consideration</div><div>&gt; text is =
that there is no detailed specification of how to sign =
and</div><div>&gt; validate messages, similar to what we were required =
to do by the Sec</div><div>&gt; ADs in RFC7183. I doubt that two AODVv2 =
implementations by different</div><div>&gt; programmers would be =
interoperable just using the current text. You</div><div>&gt; mention =
the functions specified in RFC7182; but really these are =
just</div><div>&gt; the containers for the actual information. RFC7182 =
does not mandate</div><div>&gt; how to use them (such as we do in =
RFC7183).</div><div>&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>Written down in the =
current version, but could be more detailed and step-by-step =
based.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; Best regards</div><div>&gt; =
Ulrich</div></div><div><br></div><div>Kind =
regards,</div><div>Lotte</div><div><br></div><div></div></body></html>=

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<body > 
  <table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> 
  <tr bgcolor="orange"><th></th><th>&nbsp;13.  Security Considerations.txt&nbsp;</th><th> </th><th>&nbsp;13. Security Considerations_v3.txt&nbsp;</th><th></th></tr> 
      <tr><td class="lineno"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno"></td></tr>
      <tr bgcolor="gray" ><td></td><th><a name="part-l1" /><small>skipping to change at</small><em> line 14</em></th><th> </th><th><a name="part-r1" /><small>skipping to change at</small><em> line 14</em></th><td></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   avenues to secure AODVv2 routing.  The main objective of the AODVv2</td><td> </td><td class="right">   avenues to secure AODVv2 routing.  The main objective of the AODVv2</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   protocol is for each router to communicate reachability information</td><td> </td><td class="right">   protocol is for each router to communicate reachability information</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   about addresses for which it is responsible, and for routes it has</td><td> </td><td class="right">   about addresses for which it is responsible, and for routes it has</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   learned from other AODVv2 routers.</td><td> </td><td class="right">   learned from other AODVv2 routers.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   Networks using AODVv2 to maintain connectivity and establish routes</td><td> </td><td class="right">   Networks using AODVv2 to maintain connectivity and establish routes</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   on demand may be vulnerable to certain well-known types of threats,</td><td> </td><td class="right">   on demand may be vulnerable to certain well-known types of threats,</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   which will be detailed in the following. Some of the threats described</td><td> </td><td class="right">   which will be detailed in the following. Some of the threats described</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   can be mitigated or eliminated. Tools to do so will be described also.</td><td> </td><td class="right">   can be mitigated or eliminated. Tools to do so will be described also.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0001" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">13.1 Availability</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">TODO:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete"></span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   "The threat environment addressed by the Security Considerations</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   Flooding attacks using RREQ amount to</span> a <span class="delete">denial of service</span> for <span class="delete">route</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   section MUST at</span> a <span class="insert">minimum include deployment across the global</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   discovery: By issuing RREQ mesages</span> for <span class="delete">targets that don't exist, an</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Internet across multiple administrative boundaries without assuming</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   attacker can flood</span> the <span class="delete">network, blocking resources and drowning out</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   that firewalls are in place, even if only to provide justification</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   legitimate traffic.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   for <span class="insert">why such consideration is out of scope</span> for the <span class="insert">protocol."</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0002" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Valid</span> route <span class="delete">table entries can</span> be <span class="delete">replaced or modified by maliciously</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   <span class="insert">Since</span> route <span class="insert">messages are regenerated at each router, AODVv2 assumes a security</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   constructed RREQ and RREP messages, destroying existing routes</span> and the</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   model of transitive trust. The sender of a message MUST</span> be <span class="insert">trusted in order</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">network's integrity.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   for receiving one-hop neighbours to store the routing information it</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   provides</span> and <span class="insert">regenerate</span> the <span class="insert">message to their own one-hop neighbours.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0003" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Links could be erroneously treated as bidirectional if malicious unsolicited</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   <span class="insert">Routes are installed based on information received from trusted neighbours.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   or spoofed RREP and RREP_Ack messages were</span> to <span class="delete">be accepted.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Therefore a chain of trust back</span> to <span class="insert">the originator of a message is assumed</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   by any router using the routing information received.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0004" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Maliciously crafted or replayed RERR</span> messages <span class="delete">can</span> be <span class="delete">used to disrupt active routes.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   <span class="insert">Since</span> messages <span class="insert">are regenerated rather than forwarded, the message concepts</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   known as RREQ, RREP and RERR do not travel as a single unchanged entity</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   between source and destination, and therefore message integrity cannot</span> be</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   <span class="insert">assured end-to-end between OrigAddr and TargAddr.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0005" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">However, </span>The on-demand nature of AODVv2 route discovery automatically reduces</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   The on-demand nature of AODVv2 route discovery automatically reduces</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   the vulnerability to route disruption. Since control traffic for</td><td> </td><td class="right">   the vulnerability to route disruption. Since control traffic for</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   updating route tables is diminished, there is less opportunity for</td><td> </td><td class="right">   updating route tables is diminished, there is less opportunity for</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0006" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   attack<span class="delete">s</span> and failure.</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   attack and failure.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0007" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   Processing requirements for AODVv2 are typically quite</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.1 Availability</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   small, and would typically be dominated by calculations to verify</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   integrity.  This has the effect of reducing (but by no means</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Threats to AODVv2 which reduce availability are considered below.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   eliminating) AODVv2's vulnerability to denial of service attacks.</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.1.1 Denial of Service</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Flooding attacks using RREQ amount to a (BLIND) denial of service for route discovery: By</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	issuing RREQ messages for targets that don't exist, an attacker can flood the network, blocking</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	resources and drowning out legitimate traffic. The effect of this attack is dampened by the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   fact that duplicate RREQ messages are dropped (preventing the network from DDoSing itself).</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	Processing requirements for AODVv2 <span class="insert">messages</span> are typically quite small, <span class="insert">however AODVv2 routers</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	receiving RREQs do allocate resources in the form of Neighbor Table, Local Route Set</span> and <span class="insert">Multicast</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Route Message Table entries. The attacker can maximize their impact on table growth by changing</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	OrigAddr for each RREQ. If a specific node is to be targeted, this attack may be carried out in</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	a DISTRIBUTED fashion, either by compromising its direct neighbors or by specifying the target's</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	address as TargAddr.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of the RERR message is trusted, this threat is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		reduced. Processing requirements</span> would typically be dominated by calculations to verify integrity.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">		This has the effect of reducing (but by no means eliminating) AODVv2's vulnerability to denial of</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">		service attacks.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">                                                                         </td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">TODO</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"> "This description MUST</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   include the reasons it was either unreasonable or out of scope to</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   attempt to avoid these denial of service attacks.":</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   - Authentication of senders may prevent "foreign" nodes from DoSing, but does</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">     not protect from rogue routers (note that we currently don't propose any</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">     authentication mechanisms)</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   - In the corner case that network architecture is previously known, "legal"</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">     addresses could be administratively configured?</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   (- is this sufficient? Am I overlooking a way to prevent this here?)</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.1.2 Malicious RERR messages</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	RERR messages are designed to cause removal of installed routes. A malicious node could</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	send an RERR message with false information to attempt to get other routers to remove a</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	route to one or more specific destinations, therefore disrupting traffic to the advertised</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	destinations.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Routes will be deleted if an RERR is received, withdrawing a route for which the sender is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	the receiver's next hop, and when the RERR includes the MetricType of the installed route,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	and includes either no sequence number for the route, or includes a greater sequence number</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	than the sequence number stored with that route in the receiver's Local Route Set. Routes</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	will also be deleted if a received RERR contains a PktSource address corresponding to a Router</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Client.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	The information necessary to construct a malicious RERR could be learned by eavesdropping,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	either by listening to AODVv2 messages or by watching data packet flows.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Since the RERR is multicast, it can be received by many routers in the ad hoc network, and will</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	be regenerated when processing results in an active route being removed. This threat could</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	have serious impact on applications communicating by way of the sender of the RERR message.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o  The set of routers which use the malicious router as a next hop may be targeted with</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		a malicious RERR with no PktSource address included, if the RERR contains routes for which</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		the malicious router is a next hop from the receiving router. However, since the sender of</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		the RERR message is either malicious or broken, it is better that it is not used as a next</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		hop for these routes anyway.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o  A single router which does not use the malicious router as part of its route may be targeted</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		with a malicious RERR with a PktSource address included.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o 	Replayed RERR messages could be used to disrupt active routes.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	Protection against eavesdropping of AODVv2 messages would mitigate this attack to some extent,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		but eavesdropping of data packets can also be used to deduce the information about which routes</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		could be targeted.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	Protection against a malicious router becoming part of a route will mitigate the attack where a</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		set of routers are targeted. This will not protect against the attack if a PktSource address is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		included.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	By only regenerating RERR messages where active routes are removed, the spread of the malicious</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		RERR is limited.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	Including sequence numbers in RERR messages offers protection against attacks using replays of</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		these RERR messages.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of the RERR message is trusted, this threat is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		reduced.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.1.3 False Confirmation of Link Bidirectionality</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Links could be erroneously treated as bidirectional if malicious unsolicited or spoofed RREP</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	messages were to be accepted. This would result in a route being installed which could</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	not in fact be used to forward data to the destination, and may divert data packets away from the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	intended destination.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	There is a window of RREQ_WAIT_TIME after an RREQ is sent, in which any malicious router could</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	send an RREP in response, in order for the link to the malicious router to be deemed as</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	bidirectional.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o 	Ignoring unsolicited RREP and RREP_Ack messages partially mitigates against this threat.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of the RERR message is trusted, this threat is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	reduced.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.1.4 Message Deletion</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	A malicious router could decide not to regenerate a RREQ or RREP or RERR message. Not regenerating a</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	RERR or RREP message would disrupt route discovery. Not regenerating a RERR message would result in the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	source of data packets continuing to maintain and use the route, and further RERR messages being generated</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	by the sender of the non-regenerated RERR. A malicious router could intentionally disrupt traffic flows by</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	not allowing the source of data traffic to re-discover a new route when one breaks.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Failing to send a RREP_Ack would also disrupt route establishment, by not allowing the reverse route to be</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	validated. Return traffic which needs that route will prompt a new route discovery, wasting resources and</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	incurring a slight delay but not disrupting the ability for applications to communicate.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	none? also note that malicious router would have to wait for a route to break before it could perform this attack.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">13.2 Confidentiality</td><td> </td><td class="right">13.2 Confidentiality</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0008" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   Passive inspection of AODVv2 control messages could enable</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   Passive inspection <span class="insert">(eavesdropping)</span> of AODVv2 control messages could enable unauthorized devices to gain</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   unauthorized devices to gain information about the network topology,</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	information about the network topology, since exchanging such information is the main purpose of AODVv2.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   since exchanging such information is the main purpose of AODVv2.</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">                                                                         </td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">Eavesdropping of data traffic could allow a malicious device to obtain information about how data traffic</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	is being routed. With knowledge of source and destination addresses, malicious messages could be constructed</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	to disrupt normal operation.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">13.3 Integrity</td><td> </td><td class="right">13.3 Integrity</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0009" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Out</span> of <span class="delete">the box, AODVv2 provides no integrity protection. Any participating</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   <span class="insert">Integrity</span> of <span class="insert">route information can</span> be <span class="insert">compromised in the following types</span> of <span class="insert">attack:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   router may pose as another router by sending RREQ, RREP, RREP_Ack and RERR</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   messages in its name. Replaying of (old) RREQ or RREP messages, however,</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   would</span> be of <span class="delete">less use to an attacker, since they would be dropped immediately</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   due to their stale sequence number.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0010" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   Encryption MAY be used for AODVv2 messages.  If the routers share a</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.3.1 Message Insertion</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Valid route table entries can be replaced or modified by maliciously constructed AODVv2 messages, destroying</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	existing routes and the network's integrity.	Any router may pose as another router by sending RREQ, RREP,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	RREP_Ack and RERR messages in its name.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   o  Sending an RREQ message with false information can disrupt traffic to OrigAddr, if the sequence</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		number attached is not stale compared to any existing information about OrigAddr. Since RREQ</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		is multicast and likely to be received by all routers in the ad hoc network, this threat</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		could have serious impact on applications communicating with OrigAddr. The actual threat</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		to disrupt routes to OrigAddr is reduced by the AODVv2 mechanism of marking RREQ-derived</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		routes as "Unconfirmed" until the link to the next hop is confirmed.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   o  Sending an RREP message with false information can disrupt traffic to TargAddr. Since RREP</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		is unicast, and ignored if a corresponding RREQ was not recently sent, this threat is minimized,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		and is restricted to receivers along the path from OrigAddr to TargAddr.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   o  Sending an RREP_Ack message with false information can cause the route advertised to a target</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		address in an RREP to be erroneously accepted even though the route would contain a unidirectional</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		link and thus not be suitable for most traffic. Since RREP_Ack is unicast, and ignored if a RREP was</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		not sent recently to the sender of the RREP_Ack, this threat is minimized and is strictly local</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		to the RREP transmitter expecting the acknowledgement. Unsolicited RREP_Acks are ignored.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o  Sending an RERR message with false information is discussed in [](#13.1.2).</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of a message is trusted, this threat is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	reduced.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.3.2 Message Modification - Man in the Middle</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Any AODVv2 router can regenerate messages with modified data.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">o	If AODVv2 routers verify the integrity of AODVv2 messages, then the threat of disruption is minimized. A</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	man in the middle with no knowledge of the shared secret key used to calculate an integrity check value</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	MAY modify a message but the message will be rejected when it fails an integrity check.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.3.3 Replay Attacks</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Replaying of RREQ or RREP messages would be of less use to an attacker, since they would be</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	dropped immediately due to their stale sequence number. RERR messages MAY or MAY NOT include</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	sequence numbers and are therefore susceptible to replay attacks. RREP_Ack messages do not</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	include sequence numbers and are therefore susceptible to replay attacks.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Mitigation:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	o	Use of timestamps or sequence numbers prevents replay attacks.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4 Protection Mechanisms</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.1 Confidentiality and Authentication</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">                                                                         </td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">  	Encryption MAY be used for AODVv2 messages.  If the routers share a</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   packet-level security association, the message data can be encrypted</td><td> </td><td class="right">   packet-level security association, the message data can be encrypted</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   prior to message transmission.  The establishment of such security</td><td> </td><td class="right">   prior to message transmission.  The establishment of such security</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   associations is outside the scope of this specification.  Encryption</td><td> </td><td class="right">   associations is outside the scope of this specification.  Encryption</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left">   will not only protect against unauthorized devices obtaining</td><td> </td><td class="right">   will not only protect against unauthorized devices obtaining</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0011" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   information about network topology but will ensure that only trusted</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   information about network topology <span class="insert">(eavesdropping)</span> but will ensure that</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   routers participate in routing operations.</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	only trusted routers participate in routing operations.</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0012" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">The data contained in AODVv2 routing protocol messages SHOULD be verified using</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.2</span> Integrity and <span class="insert">Trust using ICVs</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   Cryptographic</span> Integrity <span class="delete">Check Values (ICVs)values, to</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   avoid the use of message data if the message has been tampered with.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   Replay attacks SHOULD be prevented by adding timestamps to the messages.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   While the generation of these ICVs</span> and <span class="delete">timestamps is out of scope for</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   this document, they MUST be represented as defined in [RFC7182].</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0013" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">13.3.1 Recommendations for</span> ICV <span class="delete">and timestamp generation</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">Cryptographic Integrity Check Values (ICVs) can be used to ensure integrity of received messages,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	protecting against man in the middle attacks. Further, by using ICVs, only those routers with knowledge</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	of a shared secret key are allowed to participate in routing information exchanges.	[](#RFC7182) defines</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	ICV <span class="insert">TLVs for use with [](#RFC5444).</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0014" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">This section provides specific recommendations for</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   <span class="insert">The data contained</span> in AODVv2 <span class="insert">routing protocol messages MUST be verified using</span> Integrity Check</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   the use of the integrity checking and timestamp functions defined</span> in</td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">Values, to avoid</span> the <span class="insert">use of</span> message <span class="insert">data if the message has been tampered with.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">[RFC7182] to ensure the integrity of each</span> AODVv2 <span class="delete">message. The</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   calculation used for the</span> Integrity Check <span class="delete">Value will depend on</span> the</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   message <span class="delete">type.  Sequence numbers can be used as timestamps to protect</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   against replay, since they are known to be strictly increasing.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0015" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">When more than one message is included in an RFC5444 packet, using a</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">The method of distribution of shared secret keys</span> is <span class="insert">out of</span> the <span class="insert">scope of this protocol. Key</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   single ICV Packet TLV and a single TIMESTAMP Packet TLV</span> is <span class="delete">more efficient</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	management</span> is not <span class="insert">specified for the following reasons:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   than including an ICV Message TLV and TIMESTAMP Message TLV in each</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   message created. In this case, the RFC5444 multiplexer must be instructed</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   to include the ICV and TIMESTAMP Packet TLVs in packets containing AODVv2</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   messages, or must be selected because it always performs these additions.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   If</span> the <span class="delete">multiplexer</span> is not <span class="delete">capable of adding these Packet TLVs, they SHOULD</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   be included in each AODVv2 message.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0016" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">RREQ messages advertise a route to OrigAddr, and impose very little</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">TODO (like OLSRv2 section 23.6)</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   processing requirement for receivers.  The main threat presented by</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   sending an RREQ message with false information is that traffic to</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   OrigAddr could be disrupted.  Since RREQ is multicast and likely to</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   be received by all routers in the ad hoc network, this threat could</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   have serious impact on applications communicating by way of OrigAddr.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   The actual threat to disrupt routes to OrigAddr is reduced by the</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   AODVv2 mechanism of marking RREQ-derived routes as "Unconfirmed"</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   until the link to the next hop is confirmed. If AODVv2 routers</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   verify the integrity of the RREQ message data with the help of ICVs,</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   then the threat of disruption is minimized. Since OrigAddr is included in the</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   RREQ, the ICV can be calculated and verified using message contents.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   The ICV SHOULD be verified at every step along the dispersal path of</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   the RREQ to mitigate the threat.  Since RREQ_Gen's sequence number is</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   incremented for each new RREQ, replay protection is already afforded</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   and no extra timestamp mechanism is required.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0017" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">RREP messages advertise a route to TargAddr, and impose very little</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.3 Replay Protection</span> using <span class="insert">Timestamps</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   processing requirement for receivers.  The main threat presented by</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   sending an RREP message with false information is that traffic to</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   TargAddr could be disrupted.  Since RREP is unicast, this threat is</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   restricted to receivers along the path from OrigAddr to TargAddr. If</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   AODVv2 routers always verify the integrity of the RREP message data with the help of ICVs,</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   then this threat is minimized.  Since TargAddr is included as a Data</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   Element of the RREP, the ICV can be calculated and verified</span> using</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">message contents.  The ICV SHOULD be verified at every step along the</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   unicast path of the RREP.  Since RREP_Gen's sequence number is</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   incremented for each new RREP, replay protection is afforded and no</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   extra timestamp mechanism is required.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0018" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">RREP_Ack messages are intended to verify bidirectional neighbor</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">Replay attacks MUST be prevented</span> by <span class="insert">using timestamps or sequence numbers</span> in <span class="insert">messages. [](#RFC7182) defines</span> a</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   connectivity, and impose very little processing requirement for</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">TIMESTAMP TLV</span> for use <span class="insert">with [](#RFC5444).</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   receivers.  The main threat presented</span> by <span class="delete">sending an RREP_Ack message</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   with false information is that the route advertised to a target</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   address</span> in <span class="delete">an RREP might be erroneously accepted even though the</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   route would contain</span> a <span class="delete">unidirectional link and thus not be suitable</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   for <span class="delete">most traffic.  Since RREP_Ack is unicast, this threat is strictly</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   local to the RREP transmitter expecting the acknowledgement. A</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   malicious router could also attempt to send an unsolicited RREP_Ack</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   to convince another router that a bidirectional link exists and</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   subsequently</span> use <span class="delete">further messages to divert traffic along a route</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   which is not valid.  If AODVv2 routers always verify the integrity of</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   the RREP_Ack message data, then this threat is minimized.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   The RREP_Gen SHOULD use the source IP address of the RREP_Ack to identify the</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   sender, and so the ICV SHOULD be calculated using the message</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   contents and the IP source address. The message must also include</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   a timestamp to protect against replay attacks, using TargSeqNum from the RREP</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   as the value in the TIMESTAMP TLV.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0019" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">RERR messages remove routes, and impose very little processing</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	The <span class="insert">data contained</span> in <span class="insert">AODVv2 routing protocol messages MUST</span> be <span class="insert">protected</span> with a <span class="insert">TIMESTAMP value</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   requirement for receivers.</span>  The <span class="delete">main threat presented by sending an</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	to <span class="insert">ensure</span> the <span class="insert">protection against replaying</span> of the <span class="insert">message. Sequence numbers can be used</span> as</td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   RERR message with false information is that traffic to the advertised</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">timestamps, since they are known to be strictly increasing.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   destinations could be disrupted.  Since RERR is multicast and can be</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   received by many routers</span> in <span class="delete">the ad hoc network, this threat could</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   have serious impact on applications communicating by way of the</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   sender of the RERR message.  However, since the sender of the RERR</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   message with erroneous information MAY be presumed to be either</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   malicious or broken, it is better that such routes not be used</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   anyway.  Another threat is that a malicious RERR message MAY</span> be <span class="delete">sent</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   with a <span class="delete">PktSource included, to disrupt PktSource's ability to send</span> to</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   the <span class="delete">addresses contained in the RERR.  If AODVv2 routers always verify</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   the integrity of the RERR message data with the help of ICVs, this threat is reduced.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   The receiver of the RERR SHOULD use the source IP address</span> of the <span class="delete">RERR to</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   identify the sender.  The message must also include a timestamp to protect</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   against replay attacks, using SeqNum from RERR_Gen</span> as <span class="delete">the value in the TIMESTAMP TLV.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0020" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">13.4<span class="delete"> Trust Model</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">13.4<span class="insert">.4 Application to AODVv2</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0021" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Since routing information is distributed to neighbours on a hop-by-hop basis,</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">TODO: choose HASH_FUNCTION</span> and <span class="insert">CRYPTOGRAPHIC_FUNCTION.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   and <span class="delete">route messages are regenerated at each router, AODVv2 assumes a security</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Implementations</span> of <span class="insert">AODVv2 MUST support ICV TLVs using type-extensions 1 and 2,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   model</span> of <span class="delete">transitive trust.</span> The <span class="delete">sender of a message must</span> be <span class="delete">trusted</span> in <span class="delete">order</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	hash-function HASH_FUNCTION, and cryptographic function CRYPTOGRAPHIC_FUNCTION. 	An ICV</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   for receiving one-hop neighbours to store the routing information it</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	MUST be included with every message.</span> The <span class="insert">ICV value MAY</span> be <span class="insert">truncated as specified</span> in <span class="insert">[](#RFC7182).</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   provides and regenerate the message to their own one-hop neighbours.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0022" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Routes are installed based on information received from trusted neighbours.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">Implementations</span> of <span class="insert">AODVv2 MUST support</span> a <span class="insert">TIMESTAMP TLV</span> using <span class="insert">type-extension 0. The timestamp used</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   Therefore a chain of trust back to the originator</span> of a <span class="delete">message is assumed</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	is a sequence number, and therefore the length of the &lt;TIMESTAMP-value&gt; field matches</span> the <span class="insert">AODVv2</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   by any router</span> using the <span class="delete">routing information received.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	sequence number defined in [](#seqnum). The TIMESTAMP TLV MUST be included in RREP_Ack and RERR</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	messages.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td><a name="diff0023" /></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">Since messages are regenerated rather</span> than <span class="delete">forwarded,</span> the message <span class="delete">concepts</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	<span class="insert">When more</span> than <span class="insert">one message is included in an RFC5444 packet, using a single ICV Packet TLV or</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   known</span> as <span class="delete">RREQ, RREP</span> and <span class="delete">RERR do not travel</span> as a <span class="delete">single unchanged entity</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   single TIMESTAMP Packet TLV is more efficient than including ICV and TIMESTAMP Message TLVs in</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   between source</span> and <span class="delete">destination,</span> and <span class="delete">therefore</span> message integrity <span class="delete">cannot</span> be</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	each message created. In this case, the RFC5444 multiplexer MUST be instructed to include the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">assured end-to-end. Using ICVs</span> and <span class="delete">timestamps, messages</span> can be <span class="delete">protected</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Packet TLVs in packets containing AODVv2 messages, or MUST be selected because it always performs</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"><span class="delete">   on a hop-by-hop basis, allowing only those</span> routers <span class="delete">with knowledge</span> of <span class="delete">a</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	these additions. If</span> the <span class="insert">multiplexer is not capable of adding the Packet TLVs, the TLVs MUST be</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   shared <span class="delete">secret</span> key to <span class="delete">participate</span> in <span class="delete">routing information exchanges,</span> and</td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	included as Message TLVs in each AODVv2</span> message <span class="insert">in the packet.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock">   <span class="delete">protecting</span> against replay <span class="delete">attacks.</span></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	After message generation but before transmission, the ICV and TIMESTAMP TLVs MUST be added</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	according to each message type</span> as <span class="insert">detailed in the following sections. The following steps list the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	generic procedure to be performed:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	1.	The considerations in Section 8 of [](#RFC7182) are followed, removing existing ICV TLVs</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">		and <span class="insert">adjusting the size and flags fields.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	2. The ICV is calculated over the fields specified below, depending on message type. This value</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		MAY be truncated (as specified in [](#RFC7182)).</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	3. If the TIMESTAMP is to be included, add the TIMESTAMP TLV, updating size fields</span> as <span class="insert">necessary.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	4. Add the ICV TLV, updating size fields as necessary.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	5. The changes made in Step 1 are reversed to re-add any existing ICV TLVs and adjusting the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">		size and flags fields.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	The ICV MUST be verified at the receiver. Verification of</span> a <span class="insert">received ICV value is performed by</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	repeating Step 1</span> and <span class="insert">Step 2. If the ICV value calculated from the received message or packet does</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	not match the value of &lt;ICV-data&gt; in the received message or packet, the validation fails</span> and <span class="insert">the</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	AODVv2 message MUST be discarded.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Verification of a received TIMESTAMP value is performed differently depending on</span> message <span class="insert">type.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">TODO: "If the protocol incorporates cryptographic</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   protection mechanisms, it should be clearly indicated which portions</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   of the data are protected and what the protections are (i.e.,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">   integrity <span class="insert">only, confidentiality, and/or endpoint authentication,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   etc.). Some indication should also</span> be <span class="insert">given to what sorts of attacks</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   the cryptographic protection is susceptible.   Data which should be</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   held secret (keying material, random seeds, etc.) should be clearly</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   labeled."</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">TODO:</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   "There should be a clear description of the residual risk to the user</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   or operator of that protocol after threat mitigation has been</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   deployed." (i.e. detail what happens if parts are compromised, weak cipher</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   is deployed etc)</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.4.1 RREQ Generation</span> and <span class="insert">Reception</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Since OrigAddr is included in the RREQ, the ICV</span> can be <span class="insert">calculated and verified using all</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	of the message contents. This provides message integrity and endpoint authentication,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	because trusted</span> routers <span class="insert">MUST hold the shared key in order to calculate the ICV value.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	The ICV TLV has type extension := 1.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Since RREQ_Gen's sequence number is incremented for each new RREQ, replay protection is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   already afforded and no extra timestamp mechanism is required.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.4.2 RREP Generation and Reception</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   Since TargAddr is included in the RREP, the ICV can be calculated and verified using all</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock">	of <span class="insert">the message contents. This provides message integrity and endpoint authentication,</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	because trusted routers MUST hold the</span> shared key <span class="insert">in order to calculate the ICV value.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	The ICV TLV has type extension := 1.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	Since RREP_Gen's sequence number is incremented for each new RREP, replay protection is</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	afforded and no extra timestamp mechanism is required.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.4.3 RREP_Ack Generation and Reception</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   The RREP_Gen uses the source IP address of the RREP_Ack</span> to <span class="insert">identify the sender to look up whether</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	the RREP_Ack is expected and update the Neighbour Table, and so the ICV MUST be calculated using</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	the message contents and the IP source address. The ICV TLV has type extension := 2</span> in <span class="insert">order to</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	accomplish this. This provides message integrity</span> and <span class="insert">endpoint authentication, because trusted routers</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	MUST hold the shared key in order to calculate the ICV value.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	The message MUST also include a timestamp to protect</span> against replay <span class="insert">attacks, using TargSeqNum from</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	the RREP as the value in the TIMESTAMP TLV. Verification of a received TIMESTAMP value is performed</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	by comparing the sequence number in the &lt;TIMESTAMP-value&gt; field with the sequence number in a recently</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	sent RREP awaiting acknowledgement from the sender of the RREP_Ack. If the sequence number is not</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	equal, the AODVv2 message MUST be discarded.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">13.4.4.4 RERR Generation and Reception</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">   The receiver of the RERR MUST use the source IP address of the RERR to identify the sender to look</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	up routes using that sender as next hop, and so the ICV MUST be calculated using the message contents</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	and the IP source address. The ICV TLV has type extension := 2 in order to accomplish this. This provides</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	message integrity and endpoint authentication, because trusted routers MUST hold the shared key in order</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	to calculate the ICV value.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert"></span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	The message MUST also include a timestamp to protect against replay attacks, incrementing and using</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	RERR_Gen's sequence number as the value in the TIMESTAMP TLV. Verification of a received TIMESTAMP</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	value is performed by comparing the sequence number in the &lt;TIMESTAMP-value&gt; field with the last seen</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	sequence number from the sender of the RERR. If the sequence number is not greater, the AODVv2</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>
      <tr><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td><td class="lblock"></td><td> </td><td class="rblock"><span class="insert">	message MUST be discarded.</span></td><td class="lineno" valign="top"></td></tr>

     <tr><td></td><td class="left"></td><td> </td><td class="right"></td><td></td></tr>
     <tr bgcolor="gray"><th colspan="5" align="center"><a name="end">&nbsp;End of changes. 23 change blocks.&nbsp;</a></th></tr>
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13.  Security Considerations

   This section describes various security considerations and potential
   avenues to secure AODVv2 routing.  The main objective of the AODVv2
   protocol is for each router to communicate reachability information
   about addresses for which it is responsible, and for routes it has
   learned from other AODVv2 routers.

   Networks using AODVv2 to maintain connectivity and establish routes
   on demand may be vulnerable to certain well-known types of threats,
   which will be detailed in the following. Some of the threats =
described
   can be mitigated or eliminated. Tools to do so will be described =
also.

TODO:
   "The threat environment addressed by the Security Considerations
   section MUST at a minimum include deployment across the global
   Internet across multiple administrative boundaries without assuming
   that firewalls are in place, even if only to provide justification
   for why such consideration is out of scope for the protocol."

   Since route messages are regenerated at each router, AODVv2 assumes a =
security
   model of transitive trust. The sender of a message MUST be trusted in =
order
   for receiving one-hop neighbours to store the routing information it
   provides and regenerate the message to their own one-hop neighbours.

   Routes are installed based on information received from trusted =
neighbours.
   Therefore a chain of trust back to the originator of a message is =
assumed
   by any router using the routing information received.

   Since messages are regenerated rather than forwarded, the message =
concepts
   known as RREQ, RREP and RERR do not travel as a single unchanged =
entity
   between source and destination, and therefore message integrity =
cannot be
   assured end-to-end between OrigAddr and TargAddr.

   The on-demand nature of AODVv2 route discovery automatically reduces
   the vulnerability to route disruption. Since control traffic for
   updating route tables is diminished, there is less opportunity for
   attack and failure.

13.1 Availability

	Threats to AODVv2 which reduce availability are considered =
below.

13.1.1 Denial of Service

   Flooding attacks using RREQ amount to a (BLIND) denial of service for =
route discovery: By
	issuing RREQ messages for targets that don't exist, an attacker =
can flood the network, blocking
	resources and drowning out legitimate traffic. The effect of =
this attack is dampened by the
   fact that duplicate RREQ messages are dropped (preventing the network =
from DDoSing itself).
	Processing requirements for AODVv2 messages are typically quite =
small, however AODVv2 routers
	receiving RREQs do allocate resources in the form of Neighbor =
Table, Local Route Set and Multicast
	Route Message Table entries. The attacker can maximize their =
impact on table growth by changing
	OrigAddr for each RREQ. If a specific node is to be targeted, =
this attack may be carried out in
	a DISTRIBUTED fashion, either by compromising its direct =
neighbors or by specifying the target's
	address as TargAddr.

	Mitigation:

	o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of the =
RERR message is trusted, this threat is
		reduced. Processing requirements would typically be =
dominated by calculations to verify integrity.
		This has the effect of reducing (but by no means =
eliminating) AODVv2's vulnerability to denial of
		service attacks.

TODO
 "This description MUST
   include the reasons it was either unreasonable or out of scope to
   attempt to avoid these denial of service attacks.":
   - Authentication of senders may prevent "foreign" nodes from DoSing, =
but does
     not protect from rogue routers (note that we currently don't =
propose any
     authentication mechanisms)
   - In the corner case that network architecture is previously known, =
"legal"
     addresses could be administratively configured?
   (- is this sufficient? Am I overlooking a way to prevent this here?)



13.1.2 Malicious RERR messages

	RERR messages are designed to cause removal of installed routes. =
A malicious node could
	send an RERR message with false information to attempt to get =
other routers to remove a
	route to one or more specific destinations, therefore disrupting =
traffic to the advertised
	destinations.

	Routes will be deleted if an RERR is received, withdrawing a =
route for which the sender is
	the receiver's next hop, and when the RERR includes the =
MetricType of the installed route,
	and includes either no sequence number for the route, or =
includes a greater sequence number
	than the sequence number stored with that route in the =
receiver's Local Route Set. Routes
	will also be deleted if a received RERR contains a PktSource =
address corresponding to a Router
	Client.

	The information necessary to construct a malicious RERR could be =
learned by eavesdropping,
	either by listening to AODVv2 messages or by watching data =
packet flows.

	Since the RERR is multicast, it can be received by many routers =
in the ad hoc network, and will
	be regenerated when processing results in an active route being =
removed. This threat could
	have serious impact on applications communicating by way of the =
sender of the RERR message.

	o  The set of routers which use the malicious router as a next =
hop may be targeted with
		a malicious RERR with no PktSource address included, if =
the RERR contains routes for which
		the malicious router is a next hop from the receiving =
router. However, since the sender of
		the RERR message is either malicious or broken, it is =
better that it is not used as a next
		hop for these routes anyway.
	o  A single router which does not use the malicious router as =
part of its route may be targeted
		with a malicious RERR with a PktSource address included.
	o 	Replayed RERR messages could be used to disrupt active =
routes.

	Mitigation:

	o	Protection against eavesdropping of AODVv2 messages =
would mitigate this attack to some extent,
		but eavesdropping of data packets can also be used to =
deduce the information about which routes
		could be targeted.
	o	Protection against a malicious router becoming part of a =
route will mitigate the attack where a
		set of routers are targeted. This will not protect =
against the attack if a PktSource address is
		included.
	o	By only regenerating RERR messages where active routes =
are removed, the spread of the malicious
		RERR is limited.
	o	Including sequence numbers in RERR messages offers =
protection against attacks using replays of
		these RERR messages.
	o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of the =
RERR message is trusted, this threat is
		reduced.

13.1.3 False Confirmation of Link Bidirectionality

   Links could be erroneously treated as bidirectional if malicious =
unsolicited or spoofed RREP
	messages were to be accepted. This would result in a route being =
installed which could
	not in fact be used to forward data to the destination, and may =
divert data packets away from the
	intended destination.

	There is a window of RREQ_WAIT_TIME after an RREQ is sent, in =
which any malicious router could
	send an RREP in response, in order for the link to the malicious =
router to be deemed as
	bidirectional.

	Mitigation:

	o 	Ignoring unsolicited RREP and RREP_Ack messages =
partially mitigates against this threat.
	o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of the =
RERR message is trusted, this threat is
	reduced.

13.1.4 Message Deletion

	A malicious router could decide not to regenerate a RREQ or RREP =
or RERR message. Not regenerating a
	RERR or RREP message would disrupt route discovery. Not =
regenerating a RERR message would result in the
	source of data packets continuing to maintain and use the route, =
and further RERR messages being generated
	by the sender of the non-regenerated RERR. A malicious router =
could intentionally disrupt traffic flows by
	not allowing the source of data traffic to re-discover a new =
route when one breaks.

	Failing to send a RREP_Ack would also disrupt route =
establishment, by not allowing the reverse route to be
	validated. Return traffic which needs that route will prompt a =
new route discovery, wasting resources and
	incurring a slight delay but not disrupting the ability for =
applications to communicate.

	Mitigation:

	o	none? also note that malicious router would have to wait =
for a route to break before it could perform this attack.


13.2 Confidentiality

   Passive inspection (eavesdropping) of AODVv2 control messages could =
enable unauthorized devices to gain
	information about the network topology, since exchanging such =
information is the main purpose of AODVv2.

	Eavesdropping of data traffic could allow a malicious device to =
obtain information about how data traffic
	is being routed. With knowledge of source and destination =
addresses, malicious messages could be constructed
	to disrupt normal operation.


13.3 Integrity

   Integrity of route information can be compromised in the following =
types of attack:

13.3.1 Message Insertion

   Valid route table entries can be replaced or modified by maliciously =
constructed AODVv2 messages, destroying
	existing routes and the network's integrity.	Any router may =
pose as another router by sending RREQ, RREP,
	RREP_Ack and RERR messages in its name.

   o  Sending an RREQ message with false information can disrupt traffic =
to OrigAddr, if the sequence
		number attached is not stale compared to any existing =
information about OrigAddr. Since RREQ
		is multicast and likely to be received by all routers in =
the ad hoc network, this threat
		could have serious impact on applications communicating =
with OrigAddr. The actual threat
		to disrupt routes to OrigAddr is reduced by the AODVv2 =
mechanism of marking RREQ-derived
		routes as "Unconfirmed" until the link to the next hop =
is confirmed.

   o  Sending an RREP message with false information can disrupt traffic =
to TargAddr. Since RREP
		is unicast, and ignored if a corresponding RREQ was not =
recently sent, this threat is minimized,
		and is restricted to receivers along the path from =
OrigAddr to TargAddr.

   o  Sending an RREP_Ack message with false information can cause the =
route advertised to a target
		address in an RREP to be erroneously accepted even =
though the route would contain a unidirectional
		link and thus not be suitable for most traffic. Since =
RREP_Ack is unicast, and ignored if a RREP was
		not sent recently to the sender of the RREP_Ack, this =
threat is minimized and is strictly local
		to the RREP transmitter expecting the acknowledgement. =
Unsolicited RREP_Acks are ignored.

	o  Sending an RERR message with false information is discussed =
in [](#13.1.2).

	Mitigation:
o	If AODVv2 routers always verify that the sender of a message is =
trusted, this threat is
	reduced.


13.3.2 Message Modification - Man in the Middle

	Any AODVv2 router can regenerate messages with modified data.

	Mitigation:

o	If AODVv2 routers verify the integrity of AODVv2 messages, then =
the threat of disruption is minimized. A
	man in the middle with no knowledge of the shared secret key =
used to calculate an integrity check value
	MAY modify a message but the message will be rejected when it =
fails an integrity check.

13.3.3 Replay Attacks

	Replaying of RREQ or RREP messages would be of less use to an =
attacker, since they would be
	dropped immediately due to their stale sequence number. RERR =
messages MAY or MAY NOT include
	sequence numbers and are therefore susceptible to replay =
attacks. RREP_Ack messages do not
	include sequence numbers and are therefore susceptible to replay =
attacks.

	Mitigation:

	o	Use of timestamps or sequence numbers prevents replay =
attacks.

13.4 Protection Mechanisms

13.4.1 Confidentiality and Authentication

  	Encryption MAY be used for AODVv2 messages.  If the routers =
share a
   packet-level security association, the message data can be encrypted
   prior to message transmission.  The establishment of such security
   associations is outside the scope of this specification.  Encryption
   will not only protect against unauthorized devices obtaining
   information about network topology (eavesdropping) but will ensure =
that
	only trusted routers participate in routing operations.

13.4.2 Integrity and Trust using ICVs

	Cryptographic Integrity Check Values (ICVs) can be used to =
ensure integrity of received messages,
	protecting against man in the middle attacks. Further, by using =
ICVs, only those routers with knowledge
	of a shared secret key are allowed to participate in routing =
information exchanges.	[](#RFC7182) defines
	ICV TLVs for use with [](#RFC5444).

   The data contained in AODVv2 routing protocol messages MUST be =
verified using Integrity Check
	Values, to avoid the use of message data if the message has been =
tampered with.

	The method of distribution of shared secret keys is out of the =
scope of this protocol. Key
	management is not specified for the following reasons:

TODO (like OLSRv2 section 23.6)

13.4.3 Replay Protection using Timestamps

	Replay attacks MUST be prevented by using timestamps or sequence =
numbers in messages. [](#RFC7182) defines a
	TIMESTAMP TLV for use with [](#RFC5444).

	The data contained in AODVv2 routing protocol messages MUST be =
protected with a TIMESTAMP value
	to ensure the protection against replaying of the message. =
Sequence numbers can be used as
	timestamps, since they are known to be strictly increasing.

13.4.4 Application to AODVv2

TODO: choose HASH_FUNCTION and CRYPTOGRAPHIC_FUNCTION.
	Implementations of AODVv2 MUST support ICV TLVs using =
type-extensions 1 and 2,
	hash-function HASH_FUNCTION, and cryptographic function =
CRYPTOGRAPHIC_FUNCTION. 	An ICV
	MUST be included with every message. The ICV value MAY be =
truncated as specified in [](#RFC7182).

	Implementations of AODVv2 MUST support a TIMESTAMP TLV using =
type-extension 0. The timestamp used
	is a sequence number, and therefore the length of the =
<TIMESTAMP-value> field matches the AODVv2
	sequence number defined in [](#seqnum). The TIMESTAMP TLV MUST =
be included in RREP_Ack and RERR
	messages.

	When more than one message is included in an RFC5444 packet, =
using a single ICV Packet TLV or
   single TIMESTAMP Packet TLV is more efficient than including ICV and =
TIMESTAMP Message TLVs in
	each message created. In this case, the RFC5444 multiplexer MUST =
be instructed to include the
	Packet TLVs in packets containing AODVv2 messages, or MUST be =
selected because it always performs
	these additions. If the multiplexer is not capable of adding the =
Packet TLVs, the TLVs MUST be
	included as Message TLVs in each AODVv2 message in the packet.

	After message generation but before transmission, the ICV and =
TIMESTAMP TLVs MUST be added
	according to each message type as detailed in the following =
sections. The following steps list the
	generic procedure to be performed:

	1.	The considerations in Section 8 of [](#RFC7182) are =
followed, removing existing ICV TLVs
		and adjusting the size and flags fields.

	2. The ICV is calculated over the fields specified below, =
depending on message type. This value
		MAY be truncated (as specified in [](#RFC7182)).

	3. If the TIMESTAMP is to be included, add the TIMESTAMP TLV, =
updating size fields as necessary.

	4. Add the ICV TLV, updating size fields as necessary.

	5. The changes made in Step 1 are reversed to re-add any =
existing ICV TLVs and adjusting the
		size and flags fields.

	The ICV MUST be verified at the receiver. Verification of a =
received ICV value is performed by
	repeating Step 1 and Step 2. If the ICV value calculated from =
the received message or packet does
	not match the value of <ICV-data> in the received message or =
packet, the validation fails and the
	AODVv2 message MUST be discarded.

	Verification of a received TIMESTAMP value is performed =
differently depending on message type.

TODO: "If the protocol incorporates cryptographic
   protection mechanisms, it should be clearly indicated which portions
   of the data are protected and what the protections are (i.e.,
   integrity only, confidentiality, and/or endpoint authentication,
   etc.). Some indication should also be given to what sorts of attacks
   the cryptographic protection is susceptible.   Data which should be
   held secret (keying material, random seeds, etc.) should be clearly
   labeled."

TODO:
   "There should be a clear description of the residual risk to the user
   or operator of that protocol after threat mitigation has been
   deployed." (i.e. detail what happens if parts are compromised, weak =
cipher
   is deployed etc)


13.4.4.1 RREQ Generation and Reception

   Since OrigAddr is included in the RREQ, the ICV can be calculated and =
verified using all
	of the message contents. This provides message integrity and =
endpoint authentication,
	because trusted routers MUST hold the shared key in order to =
calculate the ICV value.
	The ICV TLV has type extension :=3D 1.

	Since RREQ_Gen's sequence number is incremented for each new =
RREQ, replay protection is
   already afforded and no extra timestamp mechanism is required.

13.4.4.2 RREP Generation and Reception

   Since TargAddr is included in the RREP, the ICV can be calculated and =
verified using all
	of the message contents. This provides message integrity and =
endpoint authentication,
	because trusted routers MUST hold the shared key in order to =
calculate the ICV value.
	The ICV TLV has type extension :=3D 1.

	Since RREP_Gen's sequence number is incremented for each new =
RREP, replay protection is
	afforded and no extra timestamp mechanism is required.

13.4.4.3 RREP_Ack Generation and Reception

   The RREP_Gen uses the source IP address of the RREP_Ack to identify =
the sender to look up whether
	the RREP_Ack is expected and update the Neighbour Table, and so =
the ICV MUST be calculated using
	the message contents and the IP source address. The ICV TLV has =
type extension :=3D 2 in order to
	accomplish this. This provides message integrity and endpoint =
authentication, because trusted routers
	MUST hold the shared key in order to calculate the ICV value.

	The message MUST also include a timestamp to protect against =
replay attacks, using TargSeqNum from
	the RREP as the value in the TIMESTAMP TLV. Verification of a =
received TIMESTAMP value is performed
	by comparing the sequence number in the <TIMESTAMP-value> field =
with the sequence number in a recently
	sent RREP awaiting acknowledgement from the sender of the =
RREP_Ack. If the sequence number is not
	equal, the AODVv2 message MUST be discarded.


13.4.4.4 RERR Generation and Reception

   The receiver of the RERR MUST use the source IP address of the RERR =
to identify the sender to look
	up routes using that sender as next hop, and so the ICV MUST be =
calculated using the message contents
	and the IP source address. The ICV TLV has type extension :=3D 2 =
in order to accomplish this. This provides
	message integrity and endpoint authentication, because trusted =
routers MUST hold the shared key in order
	to calculate the ICV value.

	The message MUST also include a timestamp to protect against =
replay attacks, incrementing and using
	RERR_Gen's sequence number as the value in the TIMESTAMP TLV. =
Verification of a received TIMESTAMP
	value is performed by comparing the sequence number in the =
<TIMESTAMP-value> field with the last seen
	sequence number from the sender of the RERR. If the sequence =
number is not greater, the AODVv2
	message MUST be discarded.



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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:02:31 +0000
Message-ID: <a394c54b51e143b29fcc4cd5b7424257@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net>
References: <CA+-pDCfkPB5Z0ZkR16uisx2LT6T9BuGvk8PA219NhyJrP-Pm+Q@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8C022798@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <b7899c4f787440b2a8c68b6560c871e1@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <4ED9D8F7-125F-4170-BD07-F92ECC72CFC9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <cf5adf6564cf45c5bc6c81af7b365113@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <53984507-C860-4C03-A877-34912AA63767@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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From: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 20:03:19 +0100
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References: <CA+-pDCfkPB5Z0ZkR16uisx2LT6T9BuGvk8PA219NhyJrP-Pm+Q@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8C022798@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <b7899c4f787440b2a8c68b6560c871e1@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <4ED9D8F7-125F-4170-BD07-F92ECC72CFC9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <cf5adf6564cf45c5bc6c81af7b365113@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <53984507-C860-4C03-A877-34912AA63767@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <a394c54b51e143b29fcc4cd5b7424257@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net>
To: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/ZgqANZ0on-1k-E86aKytHIdAs0o>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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A question and a comment:

1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
     why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?

2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy called
          "moving the goal posts".=20
 =20
There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I belie=
ve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the m=
aximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.

Thomas


> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from w=
hat I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the possibil=
ities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at=
 the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, runni=
ng over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been=
 a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates t=
he requirement.
> =20
> Regards,
> Stan
> =20
> =20
> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin Dea=
n <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
> =20
> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were happy=
 to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2, bu=
t it wasn't my requirement.
> =20
> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are agre=
ed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different issue.=
)
>=20
> --=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>=20
> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run AOD=
Vv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have any g=
reat issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s un=
i-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be a=
ssigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
> =20
> Other thoughts?
> =20
> Regards,
> Stan
> =20
> =20
> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin Dea=
n <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
> =20
> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are the=
re any problems?
> =20
> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers sharing=
 an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people sho=
uldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't address the=
re is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different k=
inds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an inte=
rface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only i=
f not commonly hearable.
>=20
> -- =20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>=20
> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>=20
> Chris,
> =20
> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cause t=
he same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I recall, i=
ts especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; cloned f=
rom a common template.
> =20
> Regards,
> Stan
> =20
> =20
> =20
> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC=
) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces. We h=
ad to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive one or t=
he other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might in a r=
eal case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no id=
ea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I d=
on=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
> =20
> --
>=20
> ************************
>=20
>=20
> _____________________________________________________
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> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
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> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
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> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
> _____________________________________________________
>=20
> _____________________________________________________
> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div>A questio=
n and a comment:</div><div><br></div><div>1) I thought this was about AODVv2=
, not DLEP, so I fail to see&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it is r=
elevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?<br><br>2) I think that the argum=
ent bring made here is the logical fallacy called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<i> "moving the goal posts"</i>.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nb=
sp;</div><div>There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interface=
s" and I believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OL=
SRv2 "to the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ra=
tliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">sratliff@idirect.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memor=
y banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions a=
t my old employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement. &nbsp;Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"=
mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">srat=
liff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Justin Dean &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To answer a question with a question =E2=
=80=93 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I do=
ubt it.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Other thoughts?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"=
mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">srat=
liff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Justin Dean &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@=
mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The use case comes from routers impleme=
nting</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F49=
7D">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In NHDP, we added (follo=
wing requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of t=
he same address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#=
007E7E">--
</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
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</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:22:50 -0500
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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--089e01536672d2f619052d15ce12
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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.or=
g
> wrote:

> A question and a comment:
>
> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see
>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>

I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named)
for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support
of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based
on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would
think that was self-evident. Apparently not.


>
> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy calle=
d
>          * "moving the goal posts"*.
>

You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. All
I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with dis=
allowing
it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote moving of
goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At least I believe that,
according to IETF rules, I still get to express opinions, as a WG
participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?

Stan



>
> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I
> believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "=
to
> the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from=
 what I remember,
> there were discussions at my old employer about the possibilities of
> implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the
> time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running=
 over an
> RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requi=
rement.  Since
> DLEP is **not** PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates the requirement.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
> <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
> *To:* Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
> *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin
> Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>
>
>
> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were happ=
y
> to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2,
> but it wasn't my requirement.
>
>
>
> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are
> agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different
> issue.)
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
>
> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run AO=
DVv2 over
> a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have any great =
issues
> with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directi=
onal
> failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to =
multiple
> interfaces in the first place.
>
>
>
> Other thoughts?
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
> <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
> *To:* Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
> *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin
> Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>
>
>
> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are
> there any problems?
>
>
>
> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers sharin=
g
> an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people
> shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't addre=
ss
> there is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two
> different kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not
> tied to an interface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same
> router and only if not commonly hearable.
>
>
> --
>
> Christopher Dearlove
>
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
>
> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
>
>
> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cause
> the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. From what I recall,
> its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; clon=
ed
> from a common template.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular
> IIRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different
> interfaces. We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only
> ever receive one or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in
> NHDP) - which might in a real case be e.g. different frequencies
> (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no idea whether this is easy or hard in
> AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for e=
xample)
> still has this requirement.
>
>
>
> *-- *
>
> ************************
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
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> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email
> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
> _____________________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email
> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
> _____________________________________________________
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v><span></span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=C2=A0=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this d=
iscussion?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was aske=
d, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) for a set=
 of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of ip unn=
umbered on interfaces. It&#39;s relevant to explain that it was based on co=
mpanion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would think tha=
t was self-evident. Apparently not.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring ma=
de here is the logical fallacy called</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0<i> &quot;moving the goal posts&quot;</i>.=C2=A0</div></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>You are correct in that there is a logical f=
allacy in play here. Yours. All I&#39;ve said is (and I quote): &quot;I don=
=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing it.&quot; That&#39;s an *=
opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote moving of goal posts, or any =
other associated hardware. At least I believe that, according to IETF rules=
, I still get to express opinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC s=
lip past that I&#39;m not aware of?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Stan</di=
v><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div=
><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>There are use cases for &quot;same IP address =
on multiple interfaces&quot; and I believe they should be supported (as Chr=
is wrote that we did for OLSRv2 &quot;to the maximum extend possible&quot;)=
, also by this protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:sratliff@idirect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory ban=
ks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my=
 old employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based o=
n RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. Fo=
r that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.=C2=
=A0 Since DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.de=
mon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">beb=
emaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure why the case was insisted on for OL=
SRv2 (though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and is=
n&#39;t required for AODVv2, but it wasn&#39;t my requirement.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platform=
s, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a relat=
ed but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@id=
irect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=
=93 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doub=
t it.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case,=
 since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interf=
aces in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.de=
mon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">beb=
emaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Shoul=
d it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I&#39;ve just said in another post, the step beyo=
nd that of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don&#39;t expect =
it to be relevant as people shouldn&#39;t do it (it could be explicitly sai=
d). Though what I didn&#39;t address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of=
 advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface,=
 one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not=
 commonly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" targe=
t=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@id=
irect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. From wh=
at I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following =
requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the =
same address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive o=
ne or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which migh=
t in a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I h=
ave no idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if S=
tan (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB"=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)"=
>--
</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,10=
2)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br=
>
or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email<br>
in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or<br>
copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email<br=
>
in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.<br>
_____________________________________________________</span> <u></u><u></u>=
</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,10=
2)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br=
>
or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
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</p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,5=
1,102)">_____________________________________________________<br>This elect=
ronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>information fro=
m iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>and/or confidential. It =
is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>or entity to whom they =
are addressed. If you are not the original<br>recipient or the person respo=
nsible for delivering the email to the<br>intended recipient, be advised th=
at you have received this email<br>in error, and that any use, disseminatio=
n, forwarding, printing, or<br>copying of this email is strictly prohibited=
. If you received this email<br>in error, please delete it and immediately =
notify the sender.<br>_____________________________________________________=
</span>

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br><=
/div></blockquote></div></div><br>_________________________________________=
______<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:27:10 -0500
Message-ID: <CA+-pDCc5W2ZSKJS9Gautow-XmLdYyw78SsZjM+vvnMyLOF3cjA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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To me this isn't a big deal (unless it isn't fixed).  Two ways to fix it.
Disallow different interfaces to have the same address.  Two mandate any
interfaces with the same IP address MUST be bridged into a single logical
interface (i.e. both interfaces send and receive the same traffic).  Either
way fixes the issue.

Justin

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <
> ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>
>> A question and a comment:
>>
>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see
>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>>
>
> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly
> named) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically,
> support of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it
> was based on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. =
I
> would think that was self-evident. Apparently not.
>
>
>>
>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy call=
ed
>>          * "moving the goal posts"*.
>>
>
> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours.
> All I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues wi=
th
> disallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote
> moving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At least I believ=
e
> that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opinions, as a WG
> participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?
>
> Stan
>
>
>
>>
>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I
>> believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 =
"to
>> the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But fro=
m what I
>> remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the possibilit=
ies
>> of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at t=
he
>> time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, runnin=
g over an
>> RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requ=
irement.  Since
>> DLEP is **not** PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates the requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
>> <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>> *To:* Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>> *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin
>> Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were
>> happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for
>> AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are
>> agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but differen=
t
>> issue.)
>>
>> --
>>
>> Christopher Dearlove
>>
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run A=
ODVv2
>> over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have any =
great
>> issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s
>> uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99=
t be
>> assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Other thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
>> <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>> *To:* Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>> *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin
>> Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>
>>
>>
>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are
>> there any problems?
>>
>>
>>
>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers
>> sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as
>> people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn=
't
>> address there is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with
>> two different kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, =
not
>> tied to an interface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the sam=
e
>> router and only if not commonly hearable.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Christopher Dearlove
>>
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>
>>
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cause
>> the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. From what I recall=
,
>> its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; clo=
ned
>> from a common template.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular
>> IIRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different
>> interfaces. We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only
>> ever receive one or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in
>> NHDP) - which might in a real case be e.g. different frequencies
>> (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no idea whether this is easy or hard in
>> AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for =
example)
>> still has this requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- *
>>
>> ************************
>>
>>
>> _____________________________________________________
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>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr">To me this isn&#39;t a big deal (unless it isn&#39;t fixed=
).=C2=A0 Two ways to fix it.=C2=A0 Disallow different interfaces to have th=
e same address.=C2=A0 Two mandate any interfaces with the same IP address M=
UST be bridged into a single logical interface (i.e. both interfaces send a=
nd receive the same traffic).=C2=A0 Either way fixes the issue.<div><br></d=
iv><div>Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Stan Ratliff <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span cl=
ass=3D"">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@t=
homasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div><span></span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br=
></div><div>1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=
=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0why it is relevant to bring DLEP into =
this discussion?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><d=
iv>I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly nam=
ed) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, supp=
ort of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It&#39;s relevant to explain that it wa=
s based on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I wo=
uld think that was self-evident. Apparently not.=C2=A0</div><span class=3D"=
"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>2) I th=
ink that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy called</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<i> &quot;moving the goal posts&quot;<=
/i>.=C2=A0</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>You are=
 correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. All I&#39;=
ve said is (and I quote): &quot;I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with =
disallowing it.&quot; That&#39;s an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it =
connote moving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At least I =
believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opinions, as =
a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I&#39;m not aware of?=C2=
=A0</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div=
>Stan</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div>Th=
ere are use cases for &quot;same IP address on multiple interfaces&quot; an=
d I believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2=
 &quot;to the maximum extend possible&quot;), also by this protocol.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 1=
7:02, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" target=
=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory ban=
ks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my=
 old employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based o=
n RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. Fo=
r that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.=C2=
=A0 Since DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.de=
mon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">beb=
emaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure why the case was insisted on for OL=
SRv2 (though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and is=
n&#39;t required for AODVv2, but it wasn&#39;t my requirement.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platform=
s, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a relat=
ed but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@id=
irect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=
=93 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doub=
t it.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case,=
 since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interf=
aces in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.de=
mon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">beb=
emaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Shoul=
d it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I&#39;ve just said in another post, the step beyo=
nd that of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don&#39;t expect =
it to be relevant as people shouldn&#39;t do it (it could be explicitly sai=
d). Though what I didn&#39;t address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of=
 advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface,=
 one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not=
 commonly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" targe=
t=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@id=
irect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. From wh=
at I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following =
requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the =
same address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive o=
ne or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which migh=
t in a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I h=
ave no idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if S=
tan (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB"=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)"=
>--
</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,10=
2)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br=
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or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
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</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,10=
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This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
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<br><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,5=
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</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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...but one of the two ways limits applicability.=20

For what it is worth, I have been bringing this very issue up for many, many=
 review cycles (I think, as far as a year back). I guess I should be glad th=
at it is finally being discussed.=20


> On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:27, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> To me this isn't a big deal (unless it isn't fixed).  Two ways to fix it. =
 Disallow different interfaces to have the same address.  Two mandate any in=
terfaces with the same IP address MUST be bridged into a single logical inte=
rface (i.e. both interfaces send and receive the same traffic).  Either way f=
ixes the issue.
>=20
> Justin
>=20
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen=
.org> wrote:
>>> A question and a comment:
>>>=20
>>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
>>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>>=20
>> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly name=
d) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, suppor=
t of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based=
 on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would thin=
k that was self-evident. Apparently not.=20
>> =20
>>>=20
>>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy call=
ed
>>>           "moving the goal posts".=20
>>=20
>> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. A=
ll I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with d=
isallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote mov=
ing of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At least I believe that=
, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opinions, as a WG particip=
ant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?=20
>>=20
>> Stan
>>=20
>> =20
>>>  =20
>>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I b=
elieve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to t=
he maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>>=20
>>> Thomas
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote=
:
>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But fr=
om what I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the poss=
ibilities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementation=
s at the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, r=
unning over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have b=
een a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigate=
s the requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin D=
ean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were ha=
ppy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2,=
 but it wasn't my requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are a=
greed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different iss=
ue.)
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>=20
>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:=

>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run A=
ODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have an=
y great issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s=
 uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Other thoughts?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin D=
ean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are t=
here any problems?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers shar=
ing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people s=
houldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't address t=
here is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two differen=
t kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an i=
nterface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and onl=
y if not commonly hearable.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -- =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>=20
>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>>>=20
>>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:=

>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can caus=
e the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I recall=
, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; clone=
d from a common template.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular I=
IRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces. W=
e had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive one o=
r the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might in a=
 real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no i=
dea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I d=
on=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>>=20
>>>> ************************
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua=
l
>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this emai=
l
>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua=
l
>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this emai=
l
>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua=
l
>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this emai=
l
>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-0DF5AB97-5AA4-4C8E-9B77-7FCBA5CF6738
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>...but one of the two ways limits appl=
icability.&nbsp;</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature">For what it is worth, I have been bringing this very issue=
 up for many, many review cycles (I think, as far as a year back). I guess I=
 should be glad that it is finally being discussed.&nbsp;<br><br></div><div>=
<br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:27, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@g=
mail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">To me this isn't a big deal (unless it isn't fi=
xed).&nbsp; Two ways to fix it.&nbsp; Disallow different interfaces to have t=
he same address.&nbsp; Two mandate any interfaces with the same IP address M=
UST be bridged into a single logical interface (i.e. both interfaces send an=
d receive the same traffic).&nbsp; Either way fixes the issue.<div><br></div=
><div>Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Stan Ratliff <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">=
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclause=
n.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><span><=
/span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br></div><div>1) I=
 thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see&nbsp;</div><div>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?<br=
></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I was asked, impl=
icitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) for a set of requ=
irements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of ip unnumbered o=
n interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based on companion techno=
logy - technology that I no longer require. I would think that was self-evid=
ent. Apparently not.&nbsp;</div><span class=3D""><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring made=
 here is the logical fallacy called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp;<i> "moving the goal posts"</i>.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div></span><div>You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy i=
n play here. Yours. All I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have an=
y great issues with disallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; no=
r does it connote moving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At=
 least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opini=
ons, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?=
&nbsp;</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><d=
iv>Stan</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>Ther=
e are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I believe t=
hey should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the maxim=
um extend possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas=
</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks=
 here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my ol=
d employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.&nbsp; Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93=
 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it=
.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following re=
quests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the sam=
e address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:36:46 +0000
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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I'm not set on including the case. It's one that should be discussed here, b=
ut the answer could go either way. It just needs to be documented. I think i=
t's clear that the non-reuse of addresses between routers needs a comment - b=
ut what about gateways?

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:03, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wro=
te:
>=20
> A question and a comment:
>=20
> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>=20
> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy called=

>           "moving the goal posts".=20
>  =20
> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I bel=
ieve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the=
 maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>=20
>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Chris,
>> =20
>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from=
 what I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the possib=
ilities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations a=
t the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, runn=
ing over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have bee=
n a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates t=
he requirement.
>> =20
>> Regards,
>> Stan
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin De=
an <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>> =20
>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were happ=
y to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2, b=
ut it wasn't my requirement.
>> =20
>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are agr=
eed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different issue=
.)
>>=20
>> --=20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>=20
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Chris,
>> =20
>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run AO=
DVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have any=
 great issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s u=
ni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be a=
ssigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>> =20
>> Other thoughts?
>> =20
>> Regards,
>> Stan
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin De=
an <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>> =20
>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are th=
ere any problems?
>> =20
>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers sharin=
g an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people sh=
ouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't address th=
ere is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different=
 kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an in=
terface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only=
 if not commonly hearable.
>>=20
>> -- =20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>=20
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Chris,
>> =20
>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cause t=
he same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I recall, i=
ts especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; cloned f=
rom a common template.
>> =20
>> Regards,
>> Stan
>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIR=
C) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces. We=
 had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive one o=
r the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might in a=
 real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no i=
dea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I d=
on=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
>> =20
>> --
>>=20
>> ************************
>>=20
>>=20
>> _____________________________________________________
>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email
>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>> _____________________________________________________
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>> _____________________________________________________
>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email
>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>> _____________________________________________________
>>=20
>> _____________________________________________________
>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email
>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I'm not set on including the case. It'=
s one that should be discussed here, but the answer could go either way. It j=
ust needs to be documented. I think it's clear that the non-reuse of address=
es between routers needs a comment - but what about gateways?<br><br>--&nbsp=
;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@=
gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"=
mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</=
div></div><div><br>On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:03, Thomas Heide Clausen &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" c=
ontent=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div><span></span></div><div><div>A qu=
estion and a comment:</div><div><br></div><div>1) I thought this was about A=
ODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it=
 is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?<br><br>2) I think that the a=
rgument bring made here is the logical fallacy called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<i> "moving the goal posts"</i>.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</div><div>There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple inter=
faces" and I believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did fo=
r OLSRv2 "to the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02=
, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">sratliff@idir=
ect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memor=
y banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions a=
t my old employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement. &nbsp;Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"=
mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">srat=
liff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Justin Dean &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"m=
ailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">To answer a question with a question =E2=
=80=93 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I do=
ubt it.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Other thoughts?
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"=
mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">srat=
liff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Justin Dean &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@=
mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Chris,
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">The use case comes from routers impleme=
nting</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F49=
7D">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Stan</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">In NHDP, we added (follo=
wing requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of t=
he same address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#=
007E7E">--
</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
r:#003366">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>=

or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email<br>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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<span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;colo=
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This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
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<br><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #0=
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</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
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References: <CA+-pDCfkPB5Z0ZkR16uisx2LT6T9BuGvk8PA219NhyJrP-Pm+Q@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8C022798@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <b7899c4f787440b2a8c68b6560c871e1@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <4ED9D8F7-125F-4170-BD07-F92ECC72CFC9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <cf5adf6564cf45c5bc6c81af7b365113@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <53984507-C860-4C03-A877-34912AA63767@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <a394c54b51e143b29fcc4cd5b7424257@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <66D7FD1E-2366-45BC-B3A6-171A70BDAD17@thomasclausen.org> <CALtoyonOjktVc6Em7jhCsSU4xP20gkD0o9UjWhxF-rrkKKNhEA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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> On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:22, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.=
org> wrote:
>> A question and a comment:
>>=20
>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>=20
> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named=
) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support=
 of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based o=
n companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would think t=
hat was self-evident. Apparently not.=20
> =20
>>=20
>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy calle=
d
>>           "moving the goal posts".=20
>=20
> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. Al=
l I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with di=
sallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote movi=
ng of goal posts, or any other associated hardware.

Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (when it suits him, as a d=
ocument author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" is very much "moving th=
e goal posts".

> At least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express o=
pinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware=
 of?=20

Of course you get to express opinions.
But you do not get to shut down discussion, including calling out when you m=
ove the goal posts.


> Stan
>=20
> =20
>>  =20
>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I be=
lieve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to th=
e maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:=

>>>=20
>>> Chris,
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But fro=
m what I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the possi=
bilities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations=
 at the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, ru=
nning over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have b=
een a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigate=
s the requirement.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Stan
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin D=
ean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were hap=
py to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2, b=
ut it wasn't my requirement.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are ag=
reed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different issu=
e.)
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>>=20
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>=20
>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Chris,
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run A=
ODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have an=
y great issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s=
 uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Other thoughts?
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Stan
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin D=
ean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are t=
here any problems?
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers shari=
ng an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people s=
houldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't address t=
here is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two differen=
t kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an i=
nterface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and onl=
y if not commonly hearable.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -- =20
>>>=20
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>=20
>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>>=20
>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Chris,
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cause=
 the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I recall,=
 its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; cloned=
 from a common template.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>>=20
>>> Stan
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular II=
RC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces. W=
e had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive one o=
r the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might in a=
 real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no i=
dea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I d=
on=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>>=20
>>> ************************
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual=

>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email=

>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual=

>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email=

>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _____________________________________________________
>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual=

>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email=

>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>> _____________________________________________________
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>>> manet mailing list
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 2=
0:22, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@=
gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclausen.or=
g</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);=
border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><span></spa=
n></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br></div><div>1) I th=
ought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see&nbsp;</div><div>&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?<br></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was asked, implicitly, wh=
y *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) for a set of requirements *=
then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of ip unnumbered on interfac=
es. It's relevant to explain that it was based on companion technology - tec=
hnology that I no longer require. I would think that was self-evident. Appar=
ently not.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div=
><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallac=
y called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<i> "moving the goal po=
sts"</i>.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You are co=
rrect in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. All I've said i=
s (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing it.=
" That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote moving of goal po=
sts, or any other associated hardware. </div></div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div><br></div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0)=
;">Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (when it suits him, as=
 a document author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" is very much "movin=
g the goal posts".</span><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>At least I b=
elieve that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opinions, as a W=
G participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?&nbsp;</div=
></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Of course you get t=
o express opinions.</div><div>But you do not get to shut down discussion, in=
cluding calling out when you move the goal posts.</div><div><br></div><div><=
br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>There are u=
se cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I believe they sho=
uld be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the maximum exte=
nd possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><=
div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>=
&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks=
 here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my ol=
d employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.&nbsp; Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93=
 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it=
.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following re=
quests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the sam=
e address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)">--=

</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
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or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
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</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
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This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:41:45 +0000
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/-WeDXCg3FxnHol7tUbVdYgawxDc>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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This appears to be going backwards. The example you gave if a problem was di=
fferent routers with the same address. Not surprising that's a problem. But y=
our original comment and this are suggesting a problem even when on the same=
 router. Of course broadcast messages such as RREQs need to go out on all pa=
rticipating interfaces.

There's an address model (regarding the relationship of addresses, interface=
s and routers) in NHDP. Which parts of it couldn't be reused?

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:27, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> To me this isn't a big deal (unless it isn't fixed).  Two ways to fix it. =
 Disallow different interfaces to have the same address.  Two mandate any in=
terfaces with the same IP address MUST be bridged into a single logical inte=
rface (i.e. both interfaces send and receive the same traffic).  Either way f=
ixes the issue.
>=20
> Justin
>=20
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen=
.org> wrote:
>>> A question and a comment:
>>>=20
>>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
>>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>>=20
>> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly name=
d) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, suppor=
t of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based=
 on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would thin=
k that was self-evident. Apparently not.=20
>> =20
>>>=20
>>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy call=
ed
>>>           "moving the goal posts".=20
>>=20
>> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. A=
ll I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with d=
isallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote mov=
ing of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At least I believe that=
, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opinions, as a WG particip=
ant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?=20
>>=20
>> Stan
>>=20
>> =20
>>>  =20
>>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I b=
elieve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to t=
he maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>>=20
>>> Thomas
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote=
:
>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But fr=
om what I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the poss=
ibilities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementation=
s at the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, r=
unning over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have b=
een a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigate=
s the requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin D=
ean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were ha=
ppy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2,=
 but it wasn't my requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are a=
greed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different iss=
ue.)
>>>>=20
>>>> --=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>=20
>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:=

>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run A=
ODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have an=
y great issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s=
 uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Other thoughts?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin D=
ean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are t=
here any problems?
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers shar=
ing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people s=
houldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't address t=
here is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two differen=
t kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an i=
nterface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and onl=
y if not commonly hearable.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> -- =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>=20
>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>>>=20
>>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:=

>>>>=20
>>>> Chris,
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can caus=
e the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I recall=
, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; clone=
d from a common template.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular I=
IRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces. W=
e had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive one o=
r the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might in a=
 real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no i=
dea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I d=
on=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>>=20
>>>> ************************
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua=
l
>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this emai=
l
>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua=
l
>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this emai=
l
>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individua=
l
>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
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l
>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
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Content-Type: text/html;
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>This appears to be going backwards. Th=
e example you gave if a problem was different routers with the same address.=
 Not surprising that's a problem. But your original comment and this are sug=
gesting a problem even when on the same router. Of course broadcast messages=
 such as RREQs need to go out on all participating interfaces.</div><div id=3D=
"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">There's an add=
ress model (regarding the relationship of addresses, interfaces and routers)=
 in NHDP. Which parts of it couldn't be reused?<br><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christop=
her Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@m=
nemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div><div=
><br>On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:27, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@g=
mail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">To me this isn't a big deal (unless it isn't fi=
xed).&nbsp; Two ways to fix it.&nbsp; Disallow different interfaces to have t=
he same address.&nbsp; Two mandate any interfaces with the same IP address M=
UST be bridged into a single logical interface (i.e. both interfaces send an=
d receive the same traffic).&nbsp; Either way fixes the issue.<div><br></div=
><div>Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Stan Ratliff <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">=
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclause=
n.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><span><=
/span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br></div><div>1) I=
 thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see&nbsp;</div><div>&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?<br=
></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I was asked, impl=
icitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) for a set of requ=
irements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of ip unnumbered o=
n interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based on companion techno=
logy - technology that I no longer require. I would think that was self-evid=
ent. Apparently not.&nbsp;</div><span class=3D""><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:=
1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring made=
 here is the logical fallacy called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp;<i> "moving the goal posts"</i>.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div></span><div>You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy i=
n play here. Yours. All I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have an=
y great issues with disallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; no=
r does it connote moving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. At=
 least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opini=
ons, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aware of?=
&nbsp;</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><d=
iv>Stan</div></font></span><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>Ther=
e are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I believe t=
hey should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the maxim=
um extend possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas=
</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks=
 here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my ol=
d employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.&nbsp; Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93=
 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it=
.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following re=
quests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the sam=
e address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)">--=

</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>=

or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email<br>
in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or<br>
copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email<br>=

in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.<br>
_____________________________________________________</span> <u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>=

or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
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in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.<br>
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/p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51=
,102)">_____________________________________________________<br>This electro=
nic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>information from i=
Direct, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>and/or confidential. It is i=
ntended solely for the use of the individual<br>or entity to whom they are a=
ddressed. If you are not the original<br>recipient or the person responsible=
 for delivering the email to the<br>intended recipient, be advised that you h=
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ding, printing, or<br>copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you r=
eceived this email<br>in error, please delete it and immediately notify the s=
ender.<br>_____________________________________________________</span>

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a></s=
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Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:52:17 -0500
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.or=
g
> wrote:

>
>
> On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:22, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <
> ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>
>> A question and a comment:
>>
>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see
>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>>
>
> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly
> named) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically,
> support of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it
> was based on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. =
I
> would think that was self-evident. Apparently not.
>
>
>>
>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy call=
ed
>>          * "moving the goal posts"*.
>>
>
> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours.
> All I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues wi=
th
> disallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote
> moving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware.
>
>
> Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (when it suits him, as
> a document author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" is very much
> "moving the goal posts".
>

"... when it suits him, as a document author".... Your tin-foil hat is too
tight, and needs adjusting. And again, I merely said "I don't have any
great issues with disallowing it". Different than "it's fine by me".


>
> At least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express
> opinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not
> aware of?
>
>
> Of course you get to express opinions.
> But you do not get to shut down discussion, including calling out when yo=
u
> move the goal posts.
>

Nobody has shut down discussions. No goal posts have been moved. To state
so is fallacious.


>
>
> Stan
>
>
>
>>
>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I
>> believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 =
"to
>> the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But fro=
m what I
>> remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the possibilit=
ies
>> of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at t=
he
>> time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, runnin=
g over an
>> RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requ=
irement.  Since
>> DLEP is **not** PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates the requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
>> <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>> *To:* Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>> *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin
>> Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were
>> happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for
>> AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are
>> agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but differen=
t
>> issue.)
>>
>> --
>>
>> Christopher Dearlove
>>
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run A=
ODVv2
>> over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have any =
great
>> issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s
>> uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99=
t be
>> assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>
>>
>>
>> Other thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk
>> <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>]
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>> *To:* Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>> *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin
>> Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>
>>
>>
>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are
>> there any problems?
>>
>>
>>
>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers
>> sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as
>> people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn=
't
>> address there is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with
>> two different kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, =
not
>> tied to an interface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the sam=
e
>> router and only if not commonly hearable.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Christopher Dearlove
>>
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>
>>
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>>
>>
>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cause
>> the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. From what I recall=
,
>> its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; clo=
ned
>> from a common template.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular
>> IIRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different
>> interfaces. We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only
>> ever receive one or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in
>> NHDP) - which might in a real case be e.g. different frequencies
>> (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no idea whether this is easy or hard in
>> AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for =
example)
>> still has this requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- *
>>
>> ************************
>>
>>
>> _____________________________________________________
>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
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>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
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>>
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>>
>>
>> _____________________________________________________
>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
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>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
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>> _____________________________________________________
>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual
>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:22, Stan Ratliff &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclausen=
.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><span=
></span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br></div><div>=
1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=C2=A0</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussi=
on?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was asked, impl=
icitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) for a set of req=
uirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of ip unnumbered=
 on interfaces. It&#39;s relevant to explain that it was based on companion=
 technology - technology that I no longer require. I would think that was s=
elf-evident. Apparently not.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring made her=
e is the logical fallacy called</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0<i> &quot;moving the goal posts&quot;</i>.=C2=A0</div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>You are correct in that there is a logical falla=
cy in play here. Yours. All I&#39;ve said is (and I quote): &quot;I don=E2=
=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing it.&quot; That&#39;s an *opi=
nion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote moving of goal posts, or any oth=
er associated hardware. </div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Saying &quot;su=
pporting X is an unequivocal MUST&quot;, then (when it suits him, as a docu=
ment author) saying &quot;disallowing X is fine by me&quot; is very much &q=
uot;moving the goal posts&quot;.</span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>&quot;... when it suits him, as a document author&quot;.... Your tin-foi=
l hat is too tight, and needs adjusting. And again, I merely said &quot;I d=
on&#39;t have any great issues with disallowing it&quot;. Different than &q=
uot;it&#39;s fine by me&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>A=
t least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express opi=
nions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I&#39;m not aw=
are of?=C2=A0</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div=
>Of course you get to express opinions.</div><div>But you do not get to shu=
t down discussion, including calling out when you move the goal posts.</div=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Nobody has shut down discussi=
ons. No goal posts have been moved. To state so is fallacious.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>=
</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><=
div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-le=
ft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</=
div><div>There are use cases for &quot;same IP address on multiple interfac=
es&quot; and I believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did=
 for OLSRv2 &quot;to the maximum extend possible&quot;), also by this proto=
col.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar=
 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.ne=
t" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory ban=
ks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my=
 old employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based o=
n RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. Fo=
r that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.=C2=
=A0 Since DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.de=
mon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">beb=
emaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure why the case was insisted on for OL=
SRv2 (though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and is=
n&#39;t required for AODVv2, but it wasn&#39;t my requirement.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platform=
s, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a relat=
ed but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@id=
irect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=
=93 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doub=
t it.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case,=
 since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interf=
aces in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225=
);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri=
,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.de=
mon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Ju=
stin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">beb=
emaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Shoul=
d it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I&#39;ve just said in another post, the step beyo=
nd that of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don&#39;t expect =
it to be relevant as people shouldn&#39;t do it (it could be explicitly sai=
d). Though what I didn&#39;t address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of=
 advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface,=
 one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not=
 commonly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" targe=
t=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@id=
irect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing=
</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. From wh=
at I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sa=
ns-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following =
requests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the =
same address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive o=
ne or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which migh=
t in a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I h=
ave no idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if S=
tan (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB"=
 style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)"=
>--
</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,10=
2)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br=
>
or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email<br>
in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or<br>
copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email<br=
>
in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.<br>
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</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,10=
2)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br=
>
or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
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</p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,5=
1,102)">_____________________________________________________<br>This elect=
ronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>information fro=
m iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>and/or confidential. It =
is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>or entity to whom they =
are addressed. If you are not the original<br>recipient or the person respo=
nsible for delivering the email to the<br>intended recipient, be advised th=
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. If you received this email<br>in error, please delete it and immediately =
notify the sender.<br>_____________________________________________________=
</span>

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br><=
/div></blockquote></div></div><br>_________________________________________=
______<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
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<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:58:13 +0000
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/zrPWW2g1A4rIYEql6InU1sei6e0>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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Meanwhile, back at the issue. OLSRv2 was requested/required (I don't care wh=
ich) to support the case. There is a use for it, but it's possibly narrower t=
han it was. Does anyone have a use? If not, does anyone else think it should=
 be included because it might. And importantly, is it actually trivial or ha=
rd? Would it need the NHDP caveat on no common reception?

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:52, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.=
org> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:22, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclause=
n.org> wrote:
>>>> A question and a comment:
>>>>=20
>>>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
>>>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>>>=20
>>> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly nam=
ed) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, suppo=
rt of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was base=
d on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would thi=
nk that was self-evident. Apparently not.=20
>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy cal=
led
>>>>           "moving the goal posts".=20
>>>=20
>>> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. A=
ll I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with d=
isallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote mov=
ing of goal posts, or any other associated hardware.
>>=20
>> Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (when it suits him, as=
 a document author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" is very much "movin=
g the goal posts".
>=20
> "... when it suits him, as a document author".... Your tin-foil hat is too=
 tight, and needs adjusting. And again, I merely said "I don't have any grea=
t issues with disallowing it". Different than "it's fine by me".=20
> =20
>>=20
>>> At least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to express=
 opinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not awa=
re of?=20
>>=20
>> Of course you get to express opinions.
>> But you do not get to shut down discussion, including calling out when yo=
u move the goal posts.
>=20
> Nobody has shut down discussions. No goal posts have been moved. To state s=
o is fallacious.
> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Stan
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>>  =20
>>>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I b=
elieve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to t=
he maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrot=
e:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But f=
rom what I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the pos=
sibilities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementatio=
ns at the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, r=
unning over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have b=
een a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigate=
s the requirement.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Stan
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin=
 Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were h=
appy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2=
, but it wasn't my requirement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are a=
greed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different iss=
ue.)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>>=20
>>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote=
:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to run=
 AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have a=
ny great issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99=
s uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Other thoughts?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Stan
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justin=
 Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Are=
 there any problems?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers sha=
ring an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as people=
 shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't address=
 there is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two differ=
ent kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an=
 interface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and o=
nly if not commonly hearable.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -- =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>>=20
>>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote=
:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered. It can cau=
se the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I recal=
l, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; clon=
ed from a common template.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Stan
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular I=
IRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces. W=
e had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive one o=
r the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might in a=
 real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have no i=
dea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I d=
on=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ************************
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individu=
al
>>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this ema=
il
>>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individu=
al
>>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this ema=
il
>>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individu=
al
>>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this ema=
il
>>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manet mailing list
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>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Meanwhile, back at the issue. OLSRv2 w=
as requested/required (I don't care which) to support the case. There is a u=
se for it, but it's possibly narrower than it was. Does anyone have a use? I=
f not, does anyone else think it should be included because it might. And im=
portantly, is it actually trivial or hard? Would it need the NHDP caveat on n=
o common reception?<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=
</a></div></div><div><br>On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:52, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thoma=
s Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.o=
rg" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2=
016, at 20:22, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-le=
ft-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><=
div><br></div><div>1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail t=
o see&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it is relevant to bring DLEP i=
nto this discussion?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I=
 was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) f=
or a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of=
 ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based on c=
ompanion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would think tha=
t was self-evident. Apparently not.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring made he=
re is the logical fallacy called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
;<i> "moving the goal posts"</i>.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play her=
e. Yours. All I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great is=
sues with disallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it c=
onnote moving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware. </div></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span style=3D"background-color=
:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (wh=
en it suits him, as a document author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" i=
s very much "moving the goal posts".</span></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>"... when it suits him, as a document author".... Your tin-foil hat is=
 too tight, and needs adjusting. And again, I merely said "I don't have any g=
reat issues with disallowing it". Different than "it's fine by me".&nbsp;</d=
iv><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>At least I believe that, according to IETF ru=
les, I still get to express opinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC=
 slip past that I'm not aware of?&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></block=
quote><div><br></div><div>Of course you get to express opinions.</div><div>B=
ut you do not get to shut down discussion, including calling out when you mo=
ve the goal posts.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Nobody h=
as shut down discussions. No goal posts have been moved. To state so is fall=
acious.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Stan</div><div=
><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)=
;border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>&nbsp=
;&nbsp;</div><div>There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple inter=
faces" and I believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did fo=
r OLSRv2 "to the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div=
><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02=
, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks=
 here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my ol=
d employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.&nbsp; Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93=
 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it=
.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following re=
quests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the sam=
e address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)">--=

</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
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or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
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This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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I think that I have stated that I know of an use for it.

--=20
Thomas Heide Clausen
http://www.thomasclausen.org

"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for=20
  experiments, and they wander off through equation=20
  after equation, and eventually  build a structure=20
  which has no relation to reality."
 - Nikola Tesla,=20
    Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934

> On 2 mars 2016, at 20:58, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail=
.com> wrote:
>=20
> Meanwhile, back at the issue. OLSRv2 was requested/required (I don't care w=
hich) to support the case. There is a use for it, but it's possibly narrower=
 than it was. Does anyone have a use? If not, does anyone else think it shou=
ld be included because it might. And importantly, is it actually trivial or h=
ard? Would it need the NHDP caveat on no common reception?
>=20
> -- =20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>=20
>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:52, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen=
.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:22, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclaus=
en.org> wrote:
>>>>> A question and a comment:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see=20
>>>>>      why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discussion?
>>>>=20
>>>> I was asked, implicitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly na=
med) for a set of requirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, supp=
ort of ip unnumbered on interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was bas=
ed on companion technology - technology that I no longer require. I would th=
ink that was self-evident. Apparently not.=20
>>>> =20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> 2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logical fallacy ca=
lled
>>>>>           "moving the goal posts".=20
>>>>=20
>>>> You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours.=
 All I've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with=
 disallowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote m=
oving of goal posts, or any other associated hardware.
>>>=20
>>> Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (when it suits him, a=
s a document author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" is very much "movi=
ng the goal posts".
>>=20
>> "... when it suits him, as a document author".... Your tin-foil hat is to=
o tight, and needs adjusting. And again, I merely said "I don't have any gre=
at issues with disallowing it". Different than "it's fine by me".=20
>> =20
>>>=20
>>>> At least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still get to expres=
s opinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past that I'm not aw=
are of?=20
>>>=20
>>> Of course you get to express opinions.
>>> But you do not get to shut down discussion, including calling out when y=
ou move the goal posts.
>>=20
>> Nobody has shut down discussions. No goal posts have been moved. To state=
 so is fallacious.
>> =20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> Stan
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>>  =20
>>>>> There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I=
 believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to=
 the maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wro=
te:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But f=
rom what I remember, there were discussions at my old employer about the pos=
sibilities of implementing & running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementatio=
ns at the time were based on RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, r=
unning over an RF net. For that, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have b=
een a requirement.  Since DLEP is *not* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigate=
s the requirement.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM
>>>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justi=
n Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (though we were h=
appy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't required for AODVv2=
, but it wasn't my requirement.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As for the different addresses on different platforms, I think we are=
 agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related but different i=
ssue.)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrot=
e:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93 Will anyone want to ru=
n AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it.  I don=E2=80=99t have=
 any great issues with disallowing it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99=
s uni-directional failure case, since the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t b=
e assigned to multiple interfaces in the first place.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Other thoughts?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> From: Christopher Dearlove [mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk]=20
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM
>>>>>> To: Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net>
>>>>>> Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; Justi=
n Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should it allow it? Ar=
e there any problems?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As I've just said in another post, the step beyond that of routers sh=
aring an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be relevant as peopl=
e shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what I didn't addres=
s there is the impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two diffe=
rent kinds of advertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to a=
n interface, one shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and o=
nly if not commonly hearable.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> -- =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrot=
e:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Chris,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> The use case comes from routers implementing ip unnumbered.  It can c=
ause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom what I rec=
all, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are virtual; cl=
oned from a common template.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Stan
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In NHDP, we added (following requests from the WG, Stan in particular=
 IIRC) the more tricky case of the same address used on different interfaces=
. We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive o=
ne or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might=
 in a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I hav=
e no idea whether this is easy or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the detail=
s). I don=E2=80=99t know if Stan (for example) still has this requirement.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> =20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> ************************
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individ=
ual
>>>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this em=
ail
>>>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individ=
ual
>>>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this em=
ail
>>>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
>>>>>> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
>>>>>> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individ=
ual
>>>>>> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
>>>>>> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
>>>>>> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
>>>>>> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
>>>>>> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this em=
ail
>>>>>> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.
>>>>>> _____________________________________________________
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--Apple-Mail-93708FB7-82DF-41DD-A0CE-1697BB78992D
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I think that I have stated that I know=
 of an use for it.<br><br><div>--&nbsp;</div><div>Thomas Heide Clausen</div>=
<div><a href=3D"http://www.thomasclausen.org">http://www.thomasclausen.org</=
a></div><div><br></div><div>"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics=
 for&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;experiments, and they wander off through eq=
uation&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;after equation, and eventually &nbsp;buil=
d a structure&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;which has no relation to reality."=
</div><div>&nbsp;- Nikola Tesla,&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Modern M=
echanics and Inventions, July, 1934</div></div><div><br>On 2 mars 2016, at 2=
0:58, Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.=
com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; ch=
arset=3Dutf-8"><div>Meanwhile, back at the issue. OLSRv2 was requested/requi=
red (I don't care which) to support the case. There is a use for it, but it'=
s possibly narrower than it was. Does anyone have a use? If not, does anyone=
 else think it should be included because it might. And importantly, is it a=
ctually trivial or hard? Would it need the NHDP caveat on no common receptio=
n?<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><=
div><br>On 2 Mar 2016, at 19:52, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffs=
tan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 20:22, S=
tan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">r=
atliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thoma=
sclausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>=
<span></span></div><div><div>A question and a comment:</div><div><br></div><=
div>1) I thought this was about AODVv2, not DLEP, so I fail to see&nbsp;</di=
v><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;why it is relevant to bring DLEP into this discus=
sion?<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I was asked, imp=
licitly, why *I* was pushing (since I was repeatedly named) for a set of req=
uirements *then*, and not so *now* - specifically, support of ip unnumbered o=
n interfaces. It's relevant to explain that it was based on companion techno=
logy - technology that I no longer require. I would think that was self-evid=
ent. Apparently not.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
auto"><div><div><br>2) I think that the argument bring made here is the logi=
cal fallacy called</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<i> "moving t=
he goal posts"</i>.&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
You are correct in that there is a logical fallacy in play here. Yours. All I=
've said is (and I quote): "I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disal=
lowing it." That's an *opinion*, not an *edict*; nor does it connote moving o=
f goal posts, or any other associated hardware. </div></div></div></div></di=
v></blockquote><div><br></div><span style=3D"background-color:rgba(255,255,2=
55,0)">Saying "supporting X is an unequivocal MUST", then (when it suits him=
, as a document author) saying "disallowing X is fine by me" is very much "m=
oving the goal posts".</span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>"... whe=
n it suits him, as a document author".... Your tin-foil hat is too tight, an=
d needs adjusting. And again, I merely said "I don't have any great issues w=
ith disallowing it". Different than "it's fine by me".&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp=
;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote"><div>At least I believe that, according to IETF rules, I still g=
et to express opinions, as a WG participant... or did some RFC slip past tha=
t I'm not aware of?&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>Of course you get to express opinions.</div><div>But you do not g=
et to shut down discussion, including calling out when you move the goal pos=
ts.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Nobody has shut down d=
iscussions. No goal posts have been moved. To state so is fallacious.</div><=
div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div><b=
r></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=
&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-sty=
le:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div><div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><di=
v>There are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I bel=
ieve they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the=
 maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br>On 02 Mar 2016, at 17:02, Ratliff, Stanl=
ey &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@id=
irect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>






<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m digging deep into the memory banks=
 here=E2=80=A6 ;-) But from what I remember, there were discussions at my ol=
d employer about the possibilities of implementing &amp;
 running OLSRv2 in the router. Our implementations at the time were based on=
 RFC5578 =E2=80=93 a collection of PPPoE links, running over an RF net. For t=
hat, =E2=80=9Cip unnumbered=E2=80=9D would have been a requirement.&nbsp; Si=
nce DLEP is *<b>not</b>* PPPoE based, it pretty much mitigates
 the requirement. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:55 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm not sure why the case was insisted on for OLSRv2 (=
though we were happy to oblige to the maximum extent possible) and isn't req=
uired for AODVv2, but it wasn't my requirement.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As for the different addresses on different platforms=
, I think we are agreed, it was the point I made. (Gateways may be a related=
 but different issue.)<br>
<br>
--&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 15:19, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">To answer a question with a question =E2=80=93=
 Will anyone want to run AODVv2 over a collection of PPPoE links? I doubt it=
.&nbsp; I don=E2=80=99t have any great issues with disallowing
 it. That would also resolve Justin=E2=80=99s uni-directional failure case, s=
ince the common addresses wouldn=E2=80=99t be assigned to multiple interface=
s in the first place.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Other thoughts?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(225,225,225)=
;border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif"> Christopher Dearlove [<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon=
.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 02, 2016 9:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net" targ=
et=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;; Just=
in Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebema=
ster@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The question is, is that important for AODVv2? Should=
 it allow it? Are there any problems?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As I've just said in another post, the step beyond th=
at of routers sharing an address is a problem, but I don't expect it to be r=
elevant as people shouldn't do it (it could be explicitly said). Though what=
 I didn't address there is the
 impact on gateways. We resolved that in OLSRv2 with two different kinds of a=
dvertised address, one shareable among routers, not tied to an interface, on=
e shareable among interfaces but only on the same router and only if not com=
monly hearable.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
-- &nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Christopher Dearlove<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<u></u><u></u></p>=

</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=
=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
On 2 Mar 2016, at 14:17, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idi=
rect.net" target=3D"_blank">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Chris,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">The use case comes from routers implementing</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"> ip unnumbered</span><span style=3D"font=
-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">.
 It can cause the same address to be placed on multiple interfaces. =46rom w=
hat I recall, its especially prevalent with PPPoE interfaces, as they are vi=
rtual; cloned from a common template.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Regards,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Stan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;borde=
r-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">In NHDP, we added (following re=
quests from the WG, Stan in particular IIRC) the more tricky case of the sam=
e address used on different interfaces.
 We had to limit that, so any receiving interface would only ever receive on=
e or the other (which otherwise is not a requirement in NHDP) - which might i=
n a real case be e.g. different frequencies (timeslots, codes, etc.) I have n=
o idea whether this is easy
 or hard in AODVv2 (the devil is in the details). I don=E2=80=99t know if St=
an (for example) still has this requirement.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">&nbsp;</span><u></u><u></u></p>=

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)">--=

</span></b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p><span lang=3D"EN-GB">************************</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>=

or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email<br>
in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or<br>
copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email<br>=

in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender.<br>
_____________________________________________________</span> <u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51,102=
)">_____________________________________________________<br>
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual<br>=

or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original<br>
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the<br>
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email<br>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,51=
,102)">_____________________________________________________<br>This electro=
nic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>information from i=
Direct, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>and/or confidential. It is i=
ntended solely for the use of the individual<br>or entity to whom they are a=
ddressed. If you are not the original<br>recipient or the person responsible=
 for delivering the email to the<br>intended recipient, be advised that you h=
ave received this email<br>in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwar=
ding, printing, or<br>copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you r=
eceived this email<br>in error, please delete it and immediately notify the s=
ender.<br>_____________________________________________________</span>

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a></s=
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=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div>=
</blockquote></div></div><br>_______________________________________________=
<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
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References: <CA+-pDCfkPB5Z0ZkR16uisx2LT6T9BuGvk8PA219NhyJrP-Pm+Q@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8C022798@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <b7899c4f787440b2a8c68b6560c871e1@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <4ED9D8F7-125F-4170-BD07-F92ECC72CFC9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <cf5adf6564cf45c5bc6c81af7b365113@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <53984507-C860-4C03-A877-34912AA63767@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <a394c54b51e143b29fcc4cd5b7424257@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <66D7FD1E-2366-45BC-B3A6-171A70BDAD17@thomasclausen.org> <CALtoyonOjktVc6Em7jhCsSU4xP20gkD0o9UjWhxF-rrkKKNhEA@mail.gmail.com> <B960E3B4-A308-41DE-90AC-7714752320A1@thomasclausen.org> <CALtoyomyGxqCdvQ1OP3a6Dx17d6jOdOed=gewD42Uh4TwHXrKQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/W_hth7aS3IaLBe4KTca8EDuRL6o>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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> On 2 mars 2016, at 20:52, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ".... Your tin-foil hat is too tight, and needs adjusting.

....

> Nobody has shut down discussions.

Two statements from the same email, which are rather difficult to reconcile. 


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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org
> wrote:

>
>
> > On 2 mars 2016, at 20:52, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > ".... Your tin-foil hat is too tight, and needs adjusting.
>
> ....
>
> > Nobody has shut down discussions.
>
> Two statements from the same email, which are rather difficult to
> reconcile.
>

Not at all difficult to reconcile. In fact, the continued existence of this
email thread counters the "discussion shut down" meme.

But to echo Christopher - "Meanwhile, back at the problem"...

>From your email, I do not see an elaboration, other than the phrase "There
are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I believe
they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the
maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol."

My use case, from 7 years ago, was "I'm thinking about deploying the
protocol attached to RF devices that present themselves as a collection of
PPPoE links, and thus require a routing protocol supporting implementation
of ip unnumbered interfaces."

Would you please elaborate on your use case?

--089e0129483ae96ba7052d16feb5
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomas=
clausen.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; On 2 mars 2016, at 20:52, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffst=
an@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &quot;.... Your tin-foil hat is too tight, and needs adjusting.<br>
<br>
....<br>
<br>
&gt; Nobody has shut down discussions.<br>
<br>
Two statements from the same email, which are rather difficult to reconcile=
.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not at all difficult to reconcile. In=
 fact, the continued existence of this email thread counters the &quot;disc=
ussion shut down&quot; meme.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>But to echo Chr=
istopher - &quot;Meanwhile, back at the problem&quot;...=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>From your email, I do not see an elaboration, other than the p=
hrase &quot;There are use cases for &quot;same IP address on multiple inter=
faces&quot; and I believe they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we =
did for OLSRv2 &quot;to the maximum extend possible&quot;), also by this pr=
otocol.&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>My use case, from 7 years ago, was &=
quot;I&#39;m thinking about deploying the protocol attached to RF devices t=
hat present themselves as a collection of PPPoE links, and thus require a r=
outing protocol supporting implementation of ip unnumbered interfaces.&quot=
;</div><div><br></div><div>Would you please elaborate on your use case?</di=
v><div><br></div></div><br></div></div>

--089e0129483ae96ba7052d16feb5--


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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 9:47 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
> From your email, I do not see an elaboration, other than the phrase "There
> are use cases for "same IP address on multiple interfaces" and I believe
> they should be supported (as Chris wrote that we did for OLSRv2 "to the
> maximum extend possible"), also by this protocol."
>
> My use case, from 7 years ago, was "I'm thinking about deploying the
> protocol attached to RF devices that present themselves as a collection of
> PPPoE links, and thus require a routing protocol supporting implementation
> of ip unnumbered interfaces."

"Same IP on every intertface" is a good alternative to "linklocal IP
on interface, routeable IP on loopback".

Traceroute does strange things when your interfaces are just linklocal.

Henning Rogge


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Subject: [manet] SMARTCOMP 2016 | Call for WiP/Demo Papers - Deadline: March 7, 2016
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[Apologies for possible multiple copies]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

               Call for WORK-IN-PROGRESS papers and DEMOs

                             SMARTCOMP 2016
                  Second IEEE International Conference on
               Smart Computing

                      http://www.smart-comp.org/

                            May 18-20, 2016
                        St. Louis, Missouri, USA


*******    WIP/DEMO PAPER SUBMISSION DEADLINE: March 7, 2016    *******

                 Conference Proceedings in IEEE Xplore

------------------------------------------------------------------------


The 2nd IEEE International Conference on Smart Computing (SMARTCOMP
2016) draws upon many application disciplines such as transportation,
energy, environmental protection, resource management, healthcare,
security, banking, entertainment, and social media. In addition to
full-length technical papers, SMARTCOMP welcomes Work in Progress (WIP)
papers and technical demonstrations(DEMOs)showing innovative and
original research in the areas of smart computing. Submissions from both
industry and academia are strongly encouraged.

WIP papers are expected to report on early or ongoing research
activities, while DEMO papers are expected to present innovative
applications and tools.

The WIP and DEMO sessions will provide a forum to discuss novel ideas
and emerging results, presenting innovative applications and tools, and
bring about novel research questions, approaches, and directions.


TOPICS:
Submissions should be targeted to one of the following major areas:

- Smart Cyber-Physical Environments and
Energy/Water/Agriculture/Transportation/Healthcare/Banking Infrastructure
- Security, Privacy, and Economics in Smart Environments
- Smart Computing Technologies
- Future Smart Computing Paradigms
- Smart Human Environments, Health, Entertainment, and Social Activities
- Smart Energy Management and Analytics



SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:

WIP and Demo papers may be no more than 3 pages in length, including
figures, tables, and references.

WIP papers are expected to present early or ongoing research activities.
Novel approaches and preliminary results are especially appreciated.

Demo papers should explicitly state what will be demonstrated to the
audience, and how the attendees will be able to interact, enjoy, and
experiment.

The submitted manuscripts will be reviewed by members of the SMARTCOMP
2016 Technical Program Committee. All the accepted papers will be
presented as posters and included in the conference proceedings. At
least one author of each accepted paper must register and attend the
conference to present the work. The accepted papers will be published in
the conference proceedings by IEEE, and will be included in the Digital
Library.

Authors are requested to submit original, unpublished manuscripts in
standard IEEE proceedings format in PDF. All submissions must be typeset
in double-column IEEE format using 10pt fonts on US letter paper, with
all fonts embedded. Submitted papers must include the contact
information of all the authors. Please make sure you use the latest
version of the templates to prepare your submissions. Due to the short
interval between the notification of acceptance and the camera-ready
deadline, we strongly encourage authors to follow the camera-ready
formatting guidelines as close as possible even for the initial abstract
submission.


The IEEE LaTeX and Microsoft Word templates for conferences can be found
at IEEE Manuscript Templates for Conference Proceedings at
http://www.ieee.org/conferences_events/conferences/publishing/templates.html

Further information for authors may be found at the IEEE Computer
Society Information for Authors for Conference Publishing Services:
http://www.computer.org/web/cs-cps/authors

Submissions must be made via EasyChair:
https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=smartcomp2016
When submitting, please select the appropriate Track for your paper
(i.e., WIP or Demo).


IMPORTANT DATES:

Paper submissions:              March 7, 2016
Notification of acceptance:     March 30, 2016
Camera-ready copy due:          April 15, 2016
Conference date:             May 18-20, 2016


WIP/DEMO CO-CHAIRS:
Hassan Ghasemzadeh (hassan@eecs.wsu.edu), Washington State University, USA
Sejun Song (songsej@umkc.edu), University of Missouri-Kansas City, USA


From nobody Thu Mar  3 06:43:46 2016
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Subject: [manet] DLEP and AODVv2
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--001a113f943c3aa26a052d260680
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Hello working group,

I've received some feedback that some of my comments on-list are being
mis-interpreted with regard to whether I'm speaking as a co-chair, or as an
author. So let's clear the air, shall we?

I have always, and I continue, to recuse myself as char from all
process-related items or decisions with respect to both DLEP and AODVv2. My
comments on-list concerning these two drafts are from the perspective of a
co-author, and a working group participant. They will continue to be from
those perspectives.

Regards,
Stan

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello working group,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve rec=
eived some feedback that some of my comments on-list are being mis-interpre=
ted with regard to whether I&#39;m speaking as a co-chair, or as an author.=
 So let&#39;s clear the air, shall we?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I hav=
e always, and I continue, to recuse myself as char from all process-related=
 items or decisions with respect to both DLEP and AODVv2. My comments on-li=
st concerning these two drafts are from the perspective of a co-author, and=
 a working group participant. They will continue to be from those perspecti=
ves.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<br>Stan</div></div>

--001a113f943c3aa26a052d260680--


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From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Hello folks,

There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms 
could be used with AODVv2.

I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the 
constructive variety is solicited and welcome.

Here's the URL for the text:
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt

Regards,
Charlie P.


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From: Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com>
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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--047d7b3a83facd1b9f052d276e41
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Hi all,

I believe that we caused a lot of confusion with our attempt to explain
this in the past, which is why references to RFC 6621 were removed from the
core draft.

Charlie's new draft explains that if AODVv2 knew whether the router was
elected as a router that should forward multicast traffic, then it could
decide whether it should regenerate messages. This would be a general rule,
rather than based on feedback from RFC 6621 on a per-packet basis. We dont
want packets to be forwarded by some type of 6621 implementation since we
want AODVv2 to process and regenerate them instead. 6621 also discusses
duplicate suppression, which is also something AODVv2 wants to do its own
way. In fact the rules in RFC 6621 would indicate that AODVv2 messages
(inside RFC5444 packets of course) would not be suitable for forwarding.

I think Charlie's technique is already allowed by statements in the AODVv2
draft like "The router MAY choose not to regenerate the RREQ". This covers
implementers who wish to be clever with any 6621-inspired decisions,
without explicitly referencing RFC 6621.

If one AODVv2 implementation doesnt use that technique, it will regenerate
each message according to the main rules in the draft. If another AODVv2
implementation does use that technique, and it knows it is elected as a
member of the Relay Set, it can also regenerate each AODVv2 message
according to the main rules in the draft. If it is not elected as a member
of the Relay Set, it will not regenerate AODVv2 messages. This should not
stop any route discoveries because there should be enough forwarding nodes
elected (outside the scope of AODVv2) to ensure that the route message
reaches the target's router. I imagine it could have an effect of a
non-optimal route being chosen, i.e. not finding the best path to achieve
the best metric.

It would be assumed that the network is configured so that all routers used
the same relay set selection algorithm. This would not be under the control
of AODVv2.

So in summary:
AODVv2 would know whether the router was part of a relay set. AODVv2
messages wouldnt be forwarded according to the usual interpretation of RFC
6621. The important element is the knowledge of whether the router is
responsible for forwarding multicast traffic in general. This is a signal
to AODVv2 that when it receives AODVv2 messages, it should regenerate them.

Kind regards,
Victoria.

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <
charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> Hello folks,
>
> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms
> could be used with AODVv2.
>
> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the
> constructive variety is solicited and welcome.
>
> Here's the URL for the text:
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--047d7b3a83facd1b9f052d276e41
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi all,<br><br>I believe that we caused a lot of=
 confusion with our attempt to explain this in the past, which is why refer=
ences to RFC 6621 were removed from the core draft. <br><br>Charlie&#39;s n=
ew draft explains that if AODVv2 knew whether the router was elected as a r=
outer that should forward multicast traffic, then it could decide whether i=
t should regenerate messages. This would be a general rule, rather than bas=
ed on feedback from RFC 6621 on a per-packet basis. We dont want packets to=
 be forwarded by some type of 6621 implementation since we want AODVv2 to p=
rocess and regenerate them instead. 6621 also discusses duplicate suppressi=
on, which is also something AODVv2 wants to do its own way. In fact the rul=
es in RFC 6621 would indicate that AODVv2 messages (inside RFC5444 packets =
of course) would not be suitable for forwarding.<br><br>I think Charlie&#39=
;s technique is already allowed by statements in the AODVv2 draft like &quo=
t;The router MAY choose not to regenerate the RREQ&quot;. This covers imple=
menters who wish to be clever with any 6621-inspired decisions, without exp=
licitly referencing RFC 6621.<br><br>If one AODVv2 implementation doesnt us=
e that technique, it will regenerate each message according to the main rul=
es in the draft. If another AODVv2 implementation does use that technique, =
and it knows it is elected as a member of the Relay Set, it can also regene=
rate each AODVv2 message according to the main rules in the draft. If it is=
 not elected as a member of the Relay Set, it will not regenerate AODVv2 me=
ssages. This should not stop any route discoveries because there should be =
enough forwarding nodes elected (outside the scope of AODVv2) to ensure tha=
t the route message reaches the target&#39;s router. I imagine it could hav=
e an effect of a non-optimal route being chosen, i.e. not finding the best =
path to achieve the best metric.<br><br>It would be assumed that the networ=
k is configured so that all routers used the same relay set selection algor=
ithm. This would not be under the control of AODVv2. <br><br>So in summary:=
 <br>AODVv2 would know whether the router was part of a relay set. AODVv2 m=
essages wouldnt be forwarded according to the usual interpretation of RFC 6=
621. The important element is the knowledge of whether the router is respon=
sible for forwarding multicast traffic in general. This is a signal to AODV=
v2 that when it receives AODVv2 messages, it should regenerate them.<br><br=
></div>Kind regards,<br></div>Victoria.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Charlie Per=
kins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net"=
 target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms cou=
ld be used with AODVv2.<br>
<br>
I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the constructi=
ve variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
<br>
Here&#39;s the URL for the text:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkin=
s-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7b3a83facd1b9f052d276e41--


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: DLEP draft-19 and WGLC
Thread-Index: AdF1a/OhrTQbCUzgTu6/gKuVR7LfHA==
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 16:44:27 +0000
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All,=0A=
=0A=
As DLEP is now in WG last call and the authors are reviewing the last =0A=
set of comments prior to a draft-20, now is your chance to raise any =0A=
'show-stoppers'.=0A=
=0A=
We are currently addressing the following comments:=0A=
=0A=
* Re-reviewing Chris Dearlove's comments, to ensure we have a yea/nay =0A=
response to them, and hoping to reply in full on the list ASAP.=0A=
=0A=
* Updating the appendices to reflect the new Destination Announce =0A=
messages described in the main text.=0A=
=0A=
* Removing the 'Use-TLS' flag that has been left in the data item detail =
=0A=
sections despite the TLS requirement being removed.=0A=
=0A=
* Clarifying the layer-2 requirements in order to clarify the security =0A=
section.=0A=
=0A=
* Adding correct references to the 802.1 documents.=0A=
=0A=
* Underlining the bidirectional use of Destination Down messages, and =0A=
generally trying to improve the text around logical destinations.=0A=
=0A=
* Organise up the use of 'peer', 'participant', 'other-end' into a =0A=
consistent set of terms.=0A=
=0A=
Regards,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Thu Mar  3 08:47:23 2016
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References: <56D85DAC.5080501@earthlink.net> <CAAePS4CG=BLiCaVNJjVoLdrqvsxWmPv0+V75NM+73wD_dGUwpA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Hello Vicky,

Thanks for enlarging on the context for this discussion.  You raised the 
issue about effects on ability to discover optimal routes.

It is true that using a multicast backbone for route discovery can 
result in failure to discover optimal routes.  The deviation from 
optimal is sometimes measured by a parameter named "stretch", which can 
be defined as the average percentage increase of "discovered route 
metric" compared to "optimal route metric".

This deviation from optimality is usually pretty small (under 10%), and 
it gets smaller with increasing density of the network.   In return, 
using the multicast backbone brings a great reward in reducing 
interference, providing a significant performance benefit overall.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 3/3/2016 8:24 AM, Victoria Mercieca wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I believe that we caused a lot of confusion with our attempt to 
> explain this in the past, which is why references to RFC 6621 were 
> removed from the core draft.
>
> Charlie's new draft explains that if AODVv2 knew whether the router 
> was elected as a router that should forward multicast traffic, then it 
> could decide whether it should regenerate messages. This would be a 
> general rule, rather than based on feedback from RFC 6621 on a 
> per-packet basis. We dont want packets to be forwarded by some type of 
> 6621 implementation since we want AODVv2 to process and regenerate 
> them instead. 6621 also discusses duplicate suppression, which is also 
> something AODVv2 wants to do its own way. In fact the rules in RFC 
> 6621 would indicate that AODVv2 messages (inside RFC5444 packets of 
> course) would not be suitable for forwarding.
>
> I think Charlie's technique is already allowed by statements in the 
> AODVv2 draft like "The router MAY choose not to regenerate the RREQ". 
> This covers implementers who wish to be clever with any 6621-inspired 
> decisions, without explicitly referencing RFC 6621.
>
> If one AODVv2 implementation doesnt use that technique, it will 
> regenerate each message according to the main rules in the draft. If 
> another AODVv2 implementation does use that technique, and it knows it 
> is elected as a member of the Relay Set, it can also regenerate each 
> AODVv2 message according to the main rules in the draft. If it is not 
> elected as a member of the Relay Set, it will not regenerate AODVv2 
> messages. This should not stop any route discoveries because there 
> should be enough forwarding nodes elected (outside the scope of 
> AODVv2) to ensure that the route message reaches the target's router. 
> I imagine it could have an effect of a non-optimal route being chosen, 
> i.e. not finding the best path to achieve the best metric.
>
> It would be assumed that the network is configured so that all routers 
> used the same relay set selection algorithm. This would not be under 
> the control of AODVv2.
>
> So in summary:
> AODVv2 would know whether the router was part of a relay set. AODVv2 
> messages wouldnt be forwarded according to the usual interpretation of 
> RFC 6621. The important element is the knowledge of whether the router 
> is responsible for forwarding multicast traffic in general. This is a 
> signal to AODVv2 that when it receives AODVv2 messages, it should 
> regenerate them.
>
> Kind regards,
> Victoria.
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Charlie Perkins 
> <charles.perkins@earthlink.net <mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>> 
> wrote:
>
>
>     Hello folks,
>
>     There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
>     algorithms could be used with AODVv2.
>
>     I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the
>     constructive variety is solicited and welcome.
>
>     Here's the URL for the text:
>     https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>
>     Regards,
>     Charlie P.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     manet mailing list
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>


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<html>
  <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  </head>
  <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    Hello Vicky,<br>
    <br>
    Thanks for enlarging on the context for this discussion.  You raised
    the issue about effects on ability to discover optimal routes.<br>
    <br>
    It is true that using a multicast backbone for route discovery can
    result in failure to discover optimal routes.  The deviation from
    optimal is sometimes measured by a parameter named "stretch", which
    can be defined as the average percentage increase of "discovered
    route metric" compared to "optimal route metric".<br>
    <br>
    This deviation from optimality is usually pretty small (under 10%),
    and it gets smaller with increasing density of the network.   In
    return, using the multicast backbone brings a great reward in
    reducing interference, providing a significant performance benefit
    overall.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/3/2016 8:24 AM, Victoria Mercieca
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAAePS4CG=BLiCaVNJjVoLdrqvsxWmPv0+V75NM+73wD_dGUwpA@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div>
          <div>Hi all,<br>
            <br>
            I believe that we caused a lot of confusion with our attempt
            to explain this in the past, which is why references to RFC
            6621 were removed from the core draft. <br>
            <br>
            Charlie's new draft explains that if AODVv2 knew whether the
            router was elected as a router that should forward multicast
            traffic, then it could decide whether it should regenerate
            messages. This would be a general rule, rather than based on
            feedback from RFC 6621 on a per-packet basis. We dont want
            packets to be forwarded by some type of 6621 implementation
            since we want AODVv2 to process and regenerate them instead.
            6621 also discusses duplicate suppression, which is also
            something AODVv2 wants to do its own way. In fact the rules
            in RFC 6621 would indicate that AODVv2 messages (inside
            RFC5444 packets of course) would not be suitable for
            forwarding.<br>
            <br>
            I think Charlie's technique is already allowed by statements
            in the AODVv2 draft like "The router MAY choose not to
            regenerate the RREQ". This covers implementers who wish to
            be clever with any 6621-inspired decisions, without
            explicitly referencing RFC 6621.<br>
            <br>
            If one AODVv2 implementation doesnt use that technique, it
            will regenerate each message according to the main rules in
            the draft. If another AODVv2 implementation does use that
            technique, and it knows it is elected as a member of the
            Relay Set, it can also regenerate each AODVv2 message
            according to the main rules in the draft. If it is not
            elected as a member of the Relay Set, it will not regenerate
            AODVv2 messages. This should not stop any route discoveries
            because there should be enough forwarding nodes elected
            (outside the scope of AODVv2) to ensure that the route
            message reaches the target's router. I imagine it could have
            an effect of a non-optimal route being chosen, i.e. not
            finding the best path to achieve the best metric.<br>
            <br>
            It would be assumed that the network is configured so that
            all routers used the same relay set selection algorithm.
            This would not be under the control of AODVv2. <br>
            <br>
            So in summary: <br>
            AODVv2 would know whether the router was part of a relay
            set. AODVv2 messages wouldnt be forwarded according to the
            usual interpretation of RFC 6621. The important element is
            the knowledge of whether the router is responsible for
            forwarding multicast traffic in general. This is a signal to
            AODVv2 that when it receives AODVv2 messages, it should
            regenerate them.<br>
            <br>
          </div>
          Kind regards,<br>
        </div>
        Victoria.<br>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Charlie
          Perkins <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net"
              target="_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"><br>
            Hello folks,<br>
            <br>
            There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
            algorithms could be used with AODVv2.<br>
            <br>
            I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of
            the constructive variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
            <br>
            Here's the URL for the text:<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            Charlie P.<br>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            manet mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org"
              target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------080602010900070307040701--


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To: Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
References: <56D85DAC.5080501@earthlink.net> <F52AED4A-B23E-4E72-9309-036173774372@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Hello Chris,

On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>
> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.

I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me that 
he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful 
functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so 
many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that 
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.

Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or 
not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?  
This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with 
AODVv2.

Regards,
Charlie P.


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:50:15 +0000
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/MjJDPUzqvRjIwkqcl_SsR11_azE>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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This is message Charlie has already replied to because I sent it from an acc=
ount not a member of this list.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:03, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk=
> wrote:
>=20
> Sorry, that draft continues to miss the point. And that's a continuation o=
f what's in the AODVv2 draft, Section 6.5 for example.
>=20
> AODVv2 does not send messages over UDP. It sends messages to the RFC 5444 m=
ultiplexer which assembles packets hop by hop. The AODVv2 draft continues to=
 not recognise this. It needs to get it right.  It's not as if this is the f=
irst time this has been pointed out.
>=20
> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it could, b=
ut the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 5498. Wri=
tten by your then co-author. It wasn't the OLSRv2/5444 authors who made that=
 - in fact we got extra work dumped on us by 5498 and the IESG. But it was a=
ccepted as WG policy, is embodied in Proposed Standards, and the basis on wh=
ich the Manet port and protocol are allocated.
>=20
> Can you use the ideas in 6621? Yes of course. But they need to be defined i=
n AODVv2. And reimplemented - you can't for example use IP options because y=
ou don't control that. And any IP packet contains a 5444 packet (one hop onl=
y) that may contain one or more AODVv2 messages and/or other MANET messages e=
.g. NHDP HELLO messages. So you would probably need a message TLV.
>=20
> And that is exactly therefore what's done in OLSRv2. And it's not a trivia=
l exercise. But if you want that functionality, it's your only option with t=
he mandated architecture.
>=20
> -- =20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>=20
>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 15:52, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> w=
rote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms c=
ould be used with AODVv2.
>>=20
>> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the construc=
tive variety is solicited and welcome.
>>=20
>> Here's the URL for the text:
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:50:34 +0000
To: Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/t6SPONG0fVqZMQX4kMiy1VQE9cQ>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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If you let individual routers decide about relaying, messages will get lost.=
 There are, for example, some issues in getting MPRs right (especially with m=
ultiple interfaces)  and CDRs take some coordination too. So if you want int=
eroperable, they need to make a common decision.

What I don't know - but would be very wary of without a rigorous proof - is w=
hether you can define a forwarding process that works with a mixture of rout=
ers using it and routers forwarding everything. If someone has one of those,=
 things get more interesting. If you do, I'd like to see it.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com



-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 16:24, Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I believe that we caused a lot of confusion with our attempt to explain th=
is in the past, which is why references to RFC 6621 were removed from the co=
re draft.=20
>=20
> Charlie's new draft explains that if AODVv2 knew whether the router was el=
ected as a router that should forward multicast traffic, then it could decid=
e whether it should regenerate messages. This would be a general rule, rathe=
r than based on feedback from RFC 6621 on a per-packet basis. We dont want p=
ackets to be forwarded by some type of 6621 implementation since we want AOD=
Vv2 to process and regenerate them instead. 6621 also discusses duplicate su=
ppression, which is also something AODVv2 wants to do its own way. In fact t=
he rules in RFC 6621 would indicate that AODVv2 messages (inside RFC5444 pac=
kets of course) would not be suitable for forwarding.
>=20
> I think Charlie's technique is already allowed by statements in the AODVv2=
 draft like "The router MAY choose not to regenerate the RREQ". This covers i=
mplementers who wish to be clever with any 6621-inspired decisions, without e=
xplicitly referencing RFC 6621.
>=20
> If one AODVv2 implementation doesnt use that technique, it will regenerate=
 each message according to the main rules in the draft. If another AODVv2 im=
plementation does use that technique, and it knows it is elected as a member=
 of the Relay Set, it can also regenerate each AODVv2 message according to t=
he main rules in the draft. If it is not elected as a member of the Relay Se=
t, it will not regenerate AODVv2 messages. This should not stop any route di=
scoveries because there should be enough forwarding nodes elected (outside t=
he scope of AODVv2) to ensure that the route message reaches the target's ro=
uter. I imagine it could have an effect of a non-optimal route being chosen,=
 i.e. not finding the best path to achieve the best metric.
>=20
> It would be assumed that the network is configured so that all routers use=
d the same relay set selection algorithm. This would not be under the contro=
l of AODVv2.=20
>=20
> So in summary:=20
> AODVv2 would know whether the router was part of a relay set. AODVv2 messa=
ges wouldnt be forwarded according to the usual interpretation of RFC 6621. T=
he important element is the knowledge of whether the router is responsible f=
or forwarding multicast traffic in general. This is a signal to AODVv2 that w=
hen it receives AODVv2 messages, it should regenerate them.
>=20
> Kind regards,
> Victoria.
>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlin=
k.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms c=
ould be used with AODVv2.
>>=20
>> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the construc=
tive variety is solicited and welcome.
>>=20
>> Here's the URL for the text:
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equ=
iv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div>If you let i=
ndividual routers decide about relaying, messages will get lost. There are, f=
or example, some issues in getting MPRs right (especially with multiple inte=
rfaces) &nbsp;and CDRs take some coordination too. So if you want interopera=
ble, they need to make a common decision.</div><div><br></div><div>What I do=
n't know - but would be very wary of without a rigorous proof - is whether y=
ou can define a forwarding process that works with a mixture of routers usin=
g it and routers forwarding everything. If someone has one of those, things g=
et more interesting. If you do, I'd like to see it.<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Chr=
istopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=
">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br><div><br><br>-- &nb=
sp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D=
"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<=
/div></div>On 3 Mar 2016, at 16:24, Victoria Mercieca &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
vmercieca0@gmail.com">vmercieca0@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/=
html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi all,<br><br>I believe t=
hat we caused a lot of confusion with our attempt to explain this in the pas=
t, which is why references to RFC 6621 were removed from the core draft. <br=
><br>Charlie's new draft explains that if AODVv2 knew whether the router was=
 elected as a router that should forward multicast traffic, then it could de=
cide whether it should regenerate messages. This would be a general rule, ra=
ther than based on feedback from RFC 6621 on a per-packet basis. We dont wan=
t packets to be forwarded by some type of 6621 implementation since we want A=
ODVv2 to process and regenerate them instead. 6621 also discusses duplicate s=
uppression, which is also something AODVv2 wants to do its own way. In fact t=
he rules in RFC 6621 would indicate that AODVv2 messages (inside RFC5444 pac=
kets of course) would not be suitable for forwarding.<br><br>I think Charlie=
's technique is already allowed by statements in the AODVv2 draft like "The r=
outer MAY choose not to regenerate the RREQ". This covers implementers who w=
ish to be clever with any 6621-inspired decisions, without explicitly refere=
ncing RFC 6621.<br><br>If one AODVv2 implementation doesnt use that techniqu=
e, it will regenerate each message according to the main rules in the draft.=
 If another AODVv2 implementation does use that technique, and it knows it i=
s elected as a member of the Relay Set, it can also regenerate each AODVv2 m=
essage according to the main rules in the draft. If it is not elected as a m=
ember of the Relay Set, it will not regenerate AODVv2 messages. This should n=
ot stop any route discoveries because there should be enough forwarding node=
s elected (outside the scope of AODVv2) to ensure that the route message rea=
ches the target's router. I imagine it could have an effect of a non-optimal=
 route being chosen, i.e. not finding the best path to achieve the best metr=
ic.<br><br>It would be assumed that the network is configured so that all ro=
uters used the same relay set selection algorithm. This would not be under t=
he control of AODVv2. <br><br>So in summary: <br>AODVv2 would know whether t=
he router was part of a relay set. AODVv2 messages wouldnt be forwarded acco=
rding to the usual interpretation of RFC 6621. The important element is the k=
nowledge of whether the router is responsible for forwarding multicast traff=
ic in general. This is a signal to AODVv2 that when it receives AODVv2 messa=
ges, it should regenerate them.<br><br></div>Kind regards,<br></div>Victoria=
.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu,=
 Mar 3, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthl=
ink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms coul=
d be used with AODVv2.<br>
<br>
I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the constructiv=
e variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
<br>
Here's the URL for the text:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-=
manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:50:53 +0000
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/CHw0uBTSfSz2_aZGAk3a48bKeCA>
Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't hav=
e one until you define it.

And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole IP p=
ackets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.

As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com



-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hello Chris,
>=20
>> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>=20
>> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it could,=
 but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 5498. W=
ritten by your then co-author.
>=20
> I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me that h=
e never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful functionality=
 such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many restrictions p=
ut into place -- often with the justification that such restrictions made me=
ssage data easier to parse.
>=20
> Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or no=
t it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?  This s=
ounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with AODVv2.
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20


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Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:10:16 -0500
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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621
along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use
for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work because
the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.
All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required
would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are
unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the
scope of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove
any normative references to 6621.

I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages
only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "forwarding".  At
least it was clear to me in my reading.

Justin

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't
> have one until you define it.
>
> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole
> IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
>
> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Chris,
> >
> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> >>
> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it
> could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC
> 5498. Written by your then co-author.
> >
> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me that
> he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful
> functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many
> restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that such
> restrictions made message data easier to parse.
> >
> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or
> not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?
> This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with
> AODVv2.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Charlie P.
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the ap=
pendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining a=
lgorithmic use for AODVv2 &quot;forwarding/regeneration&quot;.=C2=A0 The de=
fined TLVs won&#39;t work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwar=
ding which is not happening here.=C2=A0 All of this can be done after AODVv=
2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY d=
ecide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or f=
or other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.=
=C2=A0 I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6=
621. =C2=A0<br><br>I&#39;d also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctl=
y specify that messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths=
 of &quot;forwarding&quot;.=C2=A0 At least it was clear to me in my reading=
.<div><br></div><div>Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">No, I&#39;m saying you need a mechanism to esta=
blish that set, and you don&#39;t have one until you define it.<br>
<br>
And you can&#39;t just say &quot;use 6621&quot; because that is about forwa=
rding whole IP packets. Which you can&#39;t, because they contain non-AODVv=
2 material.<br>
<br>
As for what Ian intended, can&#39;t help you there.<br>
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmai=
l.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmai=
l.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk<=
/a> (home)<br>
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18=
, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">char=
les.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can&#39;t use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended tha=
t it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by=
 RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me th=
at he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful function=
ality such as this.=C2=A0 Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many re=
strictions put into place -- often with the justification that such restric=
tions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether o=
r not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?=C2=
=A0 This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with =
AODVv2.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 18:25:31 +0000
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/1fcHfvchSm9TZsogpwpfTYxJEH4>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are passed to the m=
ultiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how AODVv2 sen=
ds messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes messages to the multi=
plexer, which assembles packets that might have other protocol material it, a=
nd it sends the packets that way - and only one hop. This also applies to ea=
rlier comments.

Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason you need a de=
dicated process. As Justin as noted.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621 a=
long with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use fo=
r AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work because the=
 suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.  All=
 of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required wou=
ld be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unw=
illing to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the scop=
e of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove any nor=
mative references to 6621. =20
>=20
> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that message=
s only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "forwarding".  At l=
east it was clear to me in my reading.
>=20
> Justin
>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlo=
ve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't h=
ave one until you define it.
>>=20
>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole I=
P packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
>>=20
>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>>=20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net=
> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Chris,
>> >
>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it cou=
ld, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 5498=
. Written by your then co-author.
>> >
>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me tha=
t he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful functional=
ity such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many restrictio=
ns put into place -- often with the justification that such restrictions mad=
e message data easier to parse.
>> >
>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or=
 not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?  Thi=
s sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with AODVv2.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Charlie P.
>> >
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note=
 that its messages are passed to the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in part=
icular) discusses about how AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It do=
esn't. It passes messages to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that m=
ight have other protocol material it, and it sends the packets that way - an=
d only one hop. This also applies to earlier comments.</div><div id=3D"Apple=
MailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Incidentally the mod=
ification of the message is another reason you need a dedicated process. As J=
ustin as noted.<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></=
div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">You could use the adopt the alg=
orithmic sections in the appendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP He=
llo message TLV defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration=
".&nbsp; The defined TLVs won't work because the suggest standard IP packet S=
MF forwarding which is not happening here.&nbsp; All of this can be done aft=
er AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 router=
s MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffi=
c or for other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specificat=
ion.&nbsp; I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references t=
o 6621. &nbsp;<br><br>I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly s=
pecify that messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "=
forwarding".&nbsp; At least it was clear to me in my reading.<div><br></div>=
<div>Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr"=
>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you do=
n't have one until you define it.<br>
<br>
And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole IP p=
ackets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.<br>
<br>
As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.<br>
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail=
.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail=
.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</=
a> (home)<br>
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18,=
 Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charle=
s.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it c=
ould, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 54=
98. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me tha=
t he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful functional=
ity such as this.&nbsp; Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many restr=
ictions put into place -- often with the justification that such restriction=
s made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or=
 not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?&nbsp=
; This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with AOD=
Vv2.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com>
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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--001a114020284219ae052d29556e
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Hi Justin.

Just one comment in line.

On 3 Mar 2016 18:11, "Justin Dean" <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621
along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use
for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work because
the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.
All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required
would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are
unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the
scope of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove
any normative references to 6621.
>

I would like to point out that this is what we already did. And I pointed
out, in my earlier email,  the statement that says 'MAY decide not to
regenerate.'

Kind regards,
Vicky.

> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that
messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of
"forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>
> Justin
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't
have one until you define it.
>>
>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole
IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
>>
>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Chris,
>> >
>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it
could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC
5498. Written by your then co-author.
>> >
>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful
functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many
restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that such
restrictions made message data easier to parse.
>> >
>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether
or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?
This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with
AODVv2.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Charlie P.
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--001a114020284219ae052d29556e
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<p dir=3D"ltr">Hi Justin.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Just one comment in line.=C2=A0 </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">On 3 Mar 2016 18:11, &quot;Justin Dean&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 66=
21 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic u=
se for AODVv2 &quot;forwarding/regeneration&quot;.=C2=A0 The defined TLVs w=
on&#39;t work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which i=
s not happening here.=C2=A0 All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finishe=
d and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to=
 regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for other rea=
sons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.=C2=A0 I sugg=
est you go this route and remove any normative references to 6621. =C2=A0<b=
r>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I would like to point out that this is what we already did. =
And I pointed out, in my earlier email,=C2=A0 the statement that says &#39;=
MAY decide not to regenerate.&#39; </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Kind regards, <br>
Vicky. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; I&#39;d also like to point out that AODVv2 does correct=
ly specify that messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the path=
s of &quot;forwarding&quot;.=C2=A0 At least it was clear to me in my readin=
g.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Justin<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; No, I&#39;m saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and=
 you don&#39;t have one until you define it.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; And you can&#39;t just say &quot;use 6621&quot; because that is ab=
out forwarding whole IP packets. Which you can&#39;t, because they contain =
non-AODVv2 material.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; As for what Ian intended, can&#39;t help you there.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dear=
love@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dear=
love@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.dem=
on.co.uk</a> (home)<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can&#39;t use RFC 6621. Maybe you int=
ended that it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was i=
mposed by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assu=
res me that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful=
 functionality such as this.=C2=A0 Indeed, not until long afterwards were s=
o many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that suc=
h restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know =
whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast rela=
y set?=C2=A0 This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a prob=
lem with AODVv2.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
</p>

--001a114020284219ae052d29556e--


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Cc: Charles Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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> On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of =
6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining =
algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs =
won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which =
is not happening here.  All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished =
and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not =
to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for =
other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.  =
I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6621. =
=20
>=20
> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that =
messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of =
"forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>=20

Yes, but as Ulrich has pointed out, the =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =
approach is problematic in terms of a security architecture =E2=80=94 it =
also =E2=80=9Cdeactivates=E2=80=9D the effective use of the RFC5497 =
hop-scoped TLVs as well as of hop-limit/hop-count for scope limited =
flooding.

On the security architecture issue, =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D a =
message hop-by-hop nullifies the ability to, for example, use aggregate =
signatures for path verification. There are (advanced) signature schemes =
that are tolerant to mutable fields in a forwarded packet, which could =
be potential candidate solutions with a =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D =
rather than =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D architecture, such as what =
Ulrich has proposed.



> Justin
>=20
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you =
don't have one until you define it.
>=20
> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding =
whole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 =
material.
>=20
> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>=20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> =
(iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk <mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> =
(home)
> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins =
<charles.perkins@earthlink.net <mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>> =
wrote:
> >
> > Hello Chris,
> >
> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> >>
> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it =
could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by =
RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.
> >
> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me =
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful =
functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so =
many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that =
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.
> >
> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether =
or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay =
set?  This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem =
with AODVv2.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Charlie P.
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the =
appendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV =
defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".&nbsp; The =
defined TLVs won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF =
forwarding which is not happening here.&nbsp; All of this can be done =
after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 =
routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to =
forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the scope of =
the base specification.&nbsp; I suggest you go this route and remove any =
normative references to 6621. &nbsp;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd =
also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages =
only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of =
"forwarding".&nbsp; At least it was clear to me in my reading.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Yes, but as Ulrich has pointed out, the =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D approach is problematic in terms of a =
security architecture =E2=80=94 it also =E2=80=9Cdeactivates=E2=80=9D =
the effective use of the RFC5497 hop-scoped TLVs as well as of =
hop-limit/hop-count for scope limited flooding.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>On the security architecture issue, =
=E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D a message hop-by-hop nullifies the =
ability to, for example, use aggregate signatures for path verification. =
There are (advanced) signature schemes that are tolerant to mutable =
fields in a forwarded packet, which could be potential candidate =
solutions with a =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D architecture, such as what Ulrich has =
proposed.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, =
Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">No, I'm saying you =
need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't have one until you =
define it.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole =
IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 =
material.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" =
class=3D"">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br class=3D"">
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at =
17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" =
class=3D"">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Hello Chris,<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that =
it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed =
by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me =
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful =
functionality such as this.&nbsp; Indeed, not until long afterwards were =
so many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that =
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know =
whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast =
relay set?&nbsp; This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than =
a problem with AODVv2.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Regards,<br class=3D"">
&gt; Charlie P.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
manet mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">manet =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Gents,

Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it may
well need additional word-smithing, but:

"One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information base
built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this
information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2
MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay
set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be
regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for
inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left
to the implementer."

Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a
co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay
set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.


Regards,
Stan


On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are passed to the
> multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how AODVv2
> sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes messages to the
> multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have other protocol
> material it, and it sends the packets that way - and only one hop. This
> also applies to earlier comments.
>
> Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason you need a
> dedicated process. As Justin as noted.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621
> along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use
> for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work because
> the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.
> All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required
> would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are
> unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the
> scope of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove
> any normative references to 6621.
>
> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that
> messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of
> "forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>
> Justin
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't
>> have one until you define it.
>>
>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole
>> IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
>>
>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Chris,
>> >
>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it
>> could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC
>> 5498. Written by your then co-author.
>> >
>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me
>> that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful
>> functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many
>> restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that such
>> restrictions made message data easier to parse.
>> >
>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or
>> not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?
>> This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with
>> AODVv2.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Charlie P.
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Gents,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Would text along the lines=
 of this help to explain? I understand it may well need additional word-smi=
thing, but:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"=
>&quot;One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information b=
ase built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this inf=
ormation base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MA=
Y determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set=
, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be reg=
enerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for int=
er-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left to t=
he implementer.&quot;=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8p=
x"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Because what we&#=
39;re talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a co-resident 662=
1 implementation would have about membership in the relay set, as a trigger=
 for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.=C2=A0</span></div>=
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"=
font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Re=
gards,</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Stan</span></div><=
div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher =
Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail=
.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Yes, it does that. But it does=
n&#39;t note that its messages are passed to the multiplexer but (in Sectio=
n 6.5 in particular) discusses about how AODVv2 sends messages over the Man=
et port. It doesn&#39;t. It passes messages to the multiplexer, which assem=
bles packets that might have other protocol material it, and it sends the p=
ackets that way - and only one hop. This also applies to earlier comments.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Incidentally the modification of the message is an=
other reason you need a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.<br><br>-- =
=C2=A0<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dea=
rlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div>=
</div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:b=
ebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">You could use =
the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621 along with a new=
ly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 &quot=
;forwarding/regeneration&quot;.=C2=A0 The defined TLVs won&#39;t work becau=
se the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening her=
e.=C2=A0 All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook=
 required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs i=
f they are unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outs=
ide of the scope of the base specification.=C2=A0 I suggest you go this rou=
te and remove any normative references to 6621. =C2=A0<br><br>I&#39;d also =
like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages only go =
one hop and are regenerated along the paths of &quot;forwarding&quot;.=C2=
=A0 At least it was clear to me in my reading.<div><br></div><div>Justin</d=
iv></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.de=
arlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:=
rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">No, I&#39;m sayi=
ng you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don&#39;t have one u=
ntil you define it.<br>
<br>
And you can&#39;t just say &quot;use 6621&quot; because that is about forwa=
rding whole IP packets. Which you can&#39;t, because they contain non-AODVv=
2 material.<br>
<br>
As for what Ian intended, can&#39;t help you there.<br>
<span><br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christo=
pher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christo=
pher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnem=
osyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br>
</span><div><div>&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins=
@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can&#39;t use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended tha=
t it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by=
 RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me th=
at he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful function=
ality such as this.=C2=A0 Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many re=
strictions put into place -- often with the justification that such restric=
tions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether o=
r not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?=C2=
=A0 This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with =
AODVv2.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br>______________________________________________=
_<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 18:44:29 +0000
To: Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/8GkjnNkDVIgYlOg7Bq6hpX4uRYE>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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The question is, will messages always get to all destinations if some choose=
 not to regenerate and send? Or, better, how is full delivery ensured, what r=
estrictions are there?

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:40, Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Justin.
>=20
> Just one comment in line.=20
>=20
> On 3 Mar 2016 18:11, "Justin Dean" <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621=
 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use f=
or AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work because th=
e suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.  Al=
l of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required wo=
uld be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are un=
willing to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the sco=
pe of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove any no=
rmative references to 6621. =20
> >
>=20
> I would like to point out that this is what we already did. And I pointed o=
ut, in my earlier email,  the statement that says 'MAY decide not to regener=
ate.'
>=20
> Kind regards,=20
> Vicky.
>=20
> > I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messa=
ges only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "forwarding".  At=
 least it was clear to me in my reading.
> >
> > Justin
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearl=
ove@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don'=
t have one until you define it.
> >>
> >> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whol=
e IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
> >>
> >> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Christopher Dearlove
> >> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Christopher Dearlove
> >> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> >> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> >> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.n=
et> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Hello Chris,
> >> >
> >> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it c=
ould, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 54=
98. Written by your then co-author.
> >> >
> >> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me t=
hat he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful function=
ality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many restrict=
ions put into place -- often with the justification that such restrictions m=
ade message data easier to parse.
> >> >
> >> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether o=
r not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?  Th=
is sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with AODVv2.=

> >> >
> >> > Regards,
> >> > Charlie P.
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> manet mailing list
> >> manet@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>The question is, will messages always get to all destinations if some choose not to regenerate and send? Or, better, how is full delivery ensured, what restrictions are there?<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href="mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href="mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:40, Victoria Mercieca &lt;<a href="mailto:vmercieca0@gmail.com">vmercieca0@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><p dir="ltr">Hi Justin.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Just one comment in line.&nbsp; </p>
<p dir="ltr">On 3 Mar 2016 18:11, "Justin Dean" &lt;<a href="mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".&nbsp; The defined TLVs won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.&nbsp; All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.&nbsp; I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6621. &nbsp;<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir="ltr">I would like to point out that this is what we already did. And I pointed out, in my earlier email,&nbsp; the statement that says 'MAY decide not to regenerate.' </p>
<p dir="ltr">Kind regards, <br>
Vicky. </p>
<p dir="ltr">&gt; I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "forwarding".&nbsp; At least it was clear to me in my reading.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Justin<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href="mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't have one until you define it.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful functionality such as this.&nbsp; Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that such restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?&nbsp; This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with AODVv2.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
</p>
</div></blockquote></body></html>
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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--047d7b16348b67bd05052d29787e
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Chris,

It's absolutely worth quoting other possible sources... it's just that I
can't think of any other sources at the moment... ;-)

Regards,
Stan


On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> I'm reading on a phone, so I want to read more carefully, but that looks
> the sort of thing wanted. Is it worth quoting other possible sources of
> information?
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:42, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Gents,
>
> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it may
> well need additional word-smithing, but:
>
> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information base
> built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this
> information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2
> MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay
> set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be
> regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for
> inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left
> to the implementer."
>
> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a
> co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay
> set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.
>
>
> Regards,
> Stan
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are passed to
>> the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how
>> AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes messages
>> to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have other protocol
>> material it, and it sends the packets that way - and only one hop. This
>> also applies to earlier comments.
>>
>> Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason you need a
>> dedicated process. As Justin as noted.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>
>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621
>> along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use
>> for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work because
>> the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.
>> All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required
>> would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are
>> unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the
>> scope of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove
>> any normative references to 6621.
>>
>> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that
>> messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of
>> "forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>>
>> Justin
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't
>>> have one until you define it.
>>>
>>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole
>>> IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
>>>
>>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <
>>> charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Hello Chris,
>>> >
>>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it
>>> could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC
>>> 5498. Written by your then co-author.
>>> >
>>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me
>>> that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful
>>> functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many
>>> restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that such
>>> restrictions made message data easier to parse.
>>> >
>>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether
>>> or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?
>>> This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with
>>> AODVv2.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > Charlie P.
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>

--047d7b16348b67bd05052d29787e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Chris,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It&#39;s absolutely worth =
quoting other possible sources... it&#39;s just that I can&#39;t think of a=
ny other sources at the moment... ;-)=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regard=
s,</div><div>Stan</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_=
blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>I&#39;m reading on a phone, so I wan=
t to read more carefully, but that looks the sort of thing wanted. Is it wo=
rth quoting other possible sources of information?<br><br>-- =C2=A0<div>Chr=
istopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div>=
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnem=
osyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:42, S=
tan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Gents,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Would text along the=
 lines of this help to explain? I understand it may well need additional wo=
rd-smithing, but:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px">&quot;One example of an optimization would be to exploit the informa=
tion base built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where th=
is information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AOD=
Vv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast rel=
ay set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to =
be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms f=
or inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and lef=
t to the implementer.&quot;=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Because wha=
t we&#39;re talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a co-reside=
nt 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay set, as a t=
rigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.=C2=A0</span>=
</div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8=
px">Regards,</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Stan</span><=
/div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christ=
opher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove=
@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Yes, it does that. But i=
t doesn&#39;t note that its messages are passed to the multiplexer but (in =
Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how AODVv2 sends messages over t=
he Manet port. It doesn&#39;t. It passes messages to the multiplexer, which=
 assembles packets that might have other protocol material it, and it sends=
 the packets that way - and only one hop. This also applies to earlier comm=
ents.</div><div><br></div><div>Incidentally the modification of the message=
 is another reason you need a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.<br><br=
>-- =C2=A0<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher=
.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></=
div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">You could =
use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6621 along with a=
 newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 &=
quot;forwarding/regeneration&quot;.=C2=A0 The defined TLVs won&#39;t work b=
ecause the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening=
 here.=C2=A0 All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only =
hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RRE=
Qs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are =
outside of the scope of the base specification.=C2=A0 I suggest you go this=
 route and remove any normative references to 6621. =C2=A0<br><br>I&#39;d a=
lso like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages only=
 go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of &quot;forwarding&quot;.=
=C2=A0 At least it was clear to me in my reading.<div><br></div><div>Justin=
</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Th=
u, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher=
.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">No, I&#39;m s=
aying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don&#39;t have on=
e until you define it.<br>
<br>
And you can&#39;t just say &quot;use 6621&quot; because that is about forwa=
rding whole IP packets. Which you can&#39;t, because they contain non-AODVv=
2 material.<br>
<br>
As for what Ian intended, can&#39;t help you there.<br>
<span><br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christo=
pher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Christopher Dearlove<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christo=
pher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnem=
osyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br>
</span><div><div>&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins=
@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can&#39;t use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended tha=
t it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by=
 RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me th=
at he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful function=
ality such as this.=C2=A0 Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many re=
strictions put into place -- often with the justification that such restric=
tions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether o=
r not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?=C2=
=A0 This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with =
AODVv2.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br>______________________________________________=
_<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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Cc: Charles Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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> On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:42, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Gents,=20
>=20
> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it =
may well need additional word-smithing, but:=20
>=20
> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information =
base built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this =
information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, =
AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] =
multicast relay set, and use this information to determine whether the =
message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, =
and the mechanisms for inter-process communication, are out of scope for =
this document, and left to the implementer."=20
>=20
> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that =
a co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the =
relay set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be =
regenerated.=20
>=20

I have mentioned this repeatedly in the past: saying RFC6621 is just not =
sufficient here (even disregarding the =E2=80=9Cforwarding issue=E2=80=9D)=

If routers implement different flooding reduction algorithms to =
determine membership in the multicast relay set, then you can relatively =
easily end up with situations wherein part of your network is not =
covered by the flooding operation.

If you want to specify that =E2=80=9Cflooding reduction is possible, but =
we=E2=80=99re not going to tell you what algorithm=E2=80=9D then the =
minimum requirement is to provide specific constraints on what those =
flooding reduction algorithms are allowed to do, and what they are not =
allowed to do.

In OLSRv2, we did that by way of specifying =E2=80=9Ceach router must =
select a relay set which satisfies these conditions=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D =
That=E2=80=99s one way to go =E2=80=94 but it must be within the =
specification.

>=20
> Regards,
> Stan
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
> Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are passed to =
the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how =
AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes =
messages to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have =
other protocol material it, and it sends the packets that way - and only =
one hop. This also applies to earlier comments.
>=20
> Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason you =
need a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.
>=20
> -- =20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>=20
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com =
<mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of =
6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining =
algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs =
won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which =
is not happening here.  All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished =
and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not =
to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for =
other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.  =
I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6621. =
=20
>>=20
>> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that =
messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of =
"forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>>=20
>> Justin
>>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you =
don't have one until you define it.
>>=20
>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding =
whole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 =
material.
>>=20
>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>>=20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com =
<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com =
<mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk <mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> =
(home)
>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins =
<charles.perkins@earthlink.net <mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>> =
wrote:
>> >
>> > Hello Chris,
>> >
>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it =
could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by =
RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.
>> >
>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me =
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful =
functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so =
many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that =
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.
>> >
>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know =
whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast =
relay set?  This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a =
problem with AODVv2.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Charlie P.
>> >
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:42, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Gents,&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I =
understand it may well need additional word-smithing, =
but:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">"One example of an optimization =
would be to exploit the information base built by an implementation of =
[RFC6621]. In environments where this information base is available, and =
accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node =
is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set, and use this information =
to determine whether the message needs to be regenerated. The exact =
nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for inter-process =
communication, are out of scope for this document, and left to the =
implementer."&nbsp;</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Because what =
we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a co-resident =
6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay set, as a =
trigger for whether or not the message needs to be =
regenerated.&nbsp;</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>I have mentioned this repeatedly in the past: saying =
RFC6621 is just not sufficient here (even disregarding the =E2=80=9Cforwar=
ding issue=E2=80=9D)</div><div>If routers implement different flooding =
reduction algorithms to determine membership in the multicast relay set, =
then you can relatively easily end up with situations wherein part of =
your network is not covered by the flooding operation.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If you want to specify that =E2=80=9Cflooding =
reduction is possible, but we=E2=80=99re not going to tell you what =
algorithm=E2=80=9D then the minimum requirement is to provide specific =
constraints on what those flooding reduction algorithms are allowed to =
do, and what they are not allowed to do.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>In OLSRv2, we did that by way of specifying =
=E2=80=9Ceach router must select a relay set which satisfies these =
conditions=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s one way to go =E2=80=94 but =
it must be within the specification.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" =
class=3D"">Regards,</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D"">Stan</span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher =
Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are =
passed to the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses =
about how AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It =
passes messages to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that might =
have other protocol material it, and it sends the packets that way - and =
only one hop. This also applies to earlier comments.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Incidentally the =
modification of the message is another reason you need a dedicated =
process. As Justin as noted.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-- &nbsp;<div =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections =
in the appendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message =
TLV defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".&nbsp; =
The defined TLVs won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF =
forwarding which is not happening here.&nbsp; All of this can be done =
after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 =
routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to =
forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the scope of =
the base specification.&nbsp; I suggest you go this route and remove any =
normative references to 6621. &nbsp;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd =
also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages =
only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of =
"forwarding".&nbsp; At least it was clear to me in my reading.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Justin</div></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to =
establish that set, and you don't have one until you define it.<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole =
IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 =
material.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br class=3D"">
</span><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, =
Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Hello Chris,<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that =
it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed =
by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me =
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful =
functionality such as this.&nbsp; Indeed, not until long afterwards were =
so many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that =
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know =
whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast =
relay set?&nbsp; This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than =
a problem with AODVv2.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Regards,<br class=3D"">
&gt; Charlie P.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
manet mailing list<br class=3D"">
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 target=3D"_blank" =
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br =
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manet mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a><br =
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_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">manet =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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[I think I pulled a Chris, and hit sent with a non-member email address =
=E2=80=94 apologies]

> On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com =
<mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of =
6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining =
algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs =
won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which =
is not happening here.  All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished =
and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not =
to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for =
other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.  =
I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6621. =
=20
>=20
> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that =
messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of =
"forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>=20

Yes, but as Ulrich has pointed out, the =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =
approach is problematic in terms of a security architecture =E2=80=94 it =
also =E2=80=9Cdeactivates=E2=80=9D the effective use of the RFC5497 =
hop-scoped TLVs as well as of hop-limit/hop-count for scope limited =
flooding.

On the security architecture issue, =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D a =
message hop-by-hop nullifies the ability to, for example, use aggregate =
signatures for path verification. There are (advanced) signature schemes =
that are tolerant to mutable fields in a forwarded packet, which could =
be potential candidate solutions with a =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D =
rather than =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D architecture, such as what =
Ulrich has proposed.



> Justin
>=20
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove =
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you =
don't have one until you define it.
>=20
> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding =
whole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 =
material.
>=20
> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>=20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> =
(iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk <mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> =
(home)
> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins =
<charles.perkins@earthlink.net <mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>> =
wrote:
> >
> > Hello Chris,
> >
> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> >>
> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it =
could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by =
RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.
> >
> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me =
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful =
functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so =
many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that =
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.
> >
> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know whether =
or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay =
set?  This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem =
with AODVv2.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Charlie P.
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_6E782EB2-F781-4774-B1E0-2113B0DC8D22
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">[I think I pulled a Chris, and hit sent with a non-member =
email address =E2=80=94 apologies]<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 03 =
Mar 2016, at 19:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the =
appendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV =
defining algorithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".&nbsp; The =
defined TLVs won't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF =
forwarding which is not happening here.&nbsp; All of this can be done =
after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 =
routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to =
forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the scope of =
the base specification.&nbsp; I suggest you go this route and remove any =
normative references to 6621. &nbsp;<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd =
also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that messages =
only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of =
"forwarding".&nbsp; At least it was clear to me in my reading.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Yes, but as Ulrich has pointed out, the =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D approach is problematic in terms of a =
security architecture =E2=80=94 it also =E2=80=9Cdeactivates=E2=80=9D =
the effective use of the RFC5497 hop-scoped TLVs as well as of =
hop-limit/hop-count for scope limited flooding.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On the security architecture issue, =
=E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D a message hop-by-hop nullifies the =
ability to, for example, use aggregate signatures for path verification. =
There are (advanced) signature schemes that are tolerant to mutable =
fields in a forwarded packet, which could be potential candidate =
solutions with a =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D architecture, such as what Ulrich has =
proposed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Justin</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, =
Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">No, I'm saying you =
need a mechanism to establish that set, and you don't have one until you =
define it.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding whole =
IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 =
material.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" =
class=3D"">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br class=3D"">
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at =
17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" =
class=3D"">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Hello Chris,<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that =
it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed =
by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me =
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful =
functionality such as this.&nbsp; Indeed, not until long afterwards were =
so many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that =
such restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know =
whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast =
relay set?&nbsp; This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than =
a problem with AODVv2.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
&gt; Regards,<br class=3D"">
&gt; Charlie P.<br class=3D"">
&gt;<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
manet mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer"=
 target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br class=3D"">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">manet =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Gents,
>
> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it may
> well need additional word-smithing, but:
>
> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information base
> built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this
> information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2
> MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay
> set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be
> regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for
> inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left
> to the implementer."
>
> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a
> co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay
> set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.
>
> A unmodified co-resident 6621 implementation would not provide all of the
information you need.  Similar to the point Thomas is making the "intent"
of other AODVv2 routers is unknown.  Without knowing what other AODVv2
routers are doing to reduce forwarding you can't assume your reductions
will work.  The TLVs defined in 6621 both facilitate algorithmic behaviors
and intent to forward multicast traffic based on those algorithms (i.e.
they do not convey intent to reduce or resend AODVv2 messages based on
those algorithms).  An identical TLVs (algorithmic and format speaking) but
with a new TLV IANA assignments could convey that intent and perform the
same way but that is not unmodified RFC6621

Suggested edit.

"One example of an optimization would be to exploit an information base
built by an implementation of [RFC6621] modified for use with AODVv2. Using
this information base, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of
the reduced relay set, and use this information to determine whether the
message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and
the mechanisms for inter-process communication, are out of scope for this
document, and left to the implementer."


Justin

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Stan Ratliff <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Gents,=C2=A0<d=
iv><br></div><div>Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I und=
erstand it may well need additional word-smithing, but:=C2=A0</div><div><br=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&quot;One example of an optimi=
zation would be to exploit the information base built by an implementation =
of [RFC6621]. In environments where this information base is available, and=
 accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is=
 a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set, and use this information to d=
etermine whether the message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature of t=
his optimization, and the mechanisms for inter-process communication, are o=
ut of scope for this document, and left to the implementer.&quot;=C2=A0</sp=
an></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span =
style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Because what we&#39;re talking about here is lev=
eraging the knowledge that a co-resident 6621 implementation would have abo=
ut membership in the relay set, as a trigger for whether or not the message=
 needs to be regenerated.=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:1=
2.8px"><br></span></div></div></blockquote><div>A unmodified co-resident 66=
21 implementation would not provide all of the information you need.=C2=A0 =
Similar to the point Thomas is making the &quot;intent&quot; of other AODVv=
2 routers is unknown.=C2=A0 Without knowing what other AODVv2 routers are d=
oing to reduce forwarding you can&#39;t assume your reductions will work.=
=C2=A0 The TLVs defined in 6621 both facilitate algorithmic behaviors and i=
ntent to forward multicast traffic based on those algorithms (i.e. they do =
not convey intent to reduce or resend AODVv2 messages based on those algori=
thms).=C2=A0 An identical TLVs (algorithmic and format speaking) but with a=
 new TLV IANA assignments could convey that intent and perform the same way=
 but that is not unmodified RFC6621</div><div><br></div><div>Suggested edit=
.</div><div><br></div><div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&quot;One =
example of an optimization would be to exploit an information base built by=
 an implementation of [RFC6621] modified for use with AODVv2. Using this in=
formation base, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of the redu=
ced relay set, and use this information to determine whether the message ne=
eds to be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mecha=
nisms for inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, =
and left to the implementer.&quot;=C2=A0</span></div></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><br></div><div>Justin</div><div=
><br></div></div></div></div>

--089e0149c636820647052d29dddc--


From nobody Thu Mar  3 11:34:41 2016
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Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 14:34:36 -0500
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Justin,

Thanks for that suggestion. Let me take that to the team.

Regards,
Stan


On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Gents,
>>
>> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it may
>> well need additional word-smithing, but:
>>
>> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information base
>> built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this
>> information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2
>> MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay
>> set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be
>> regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for
>> inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left
>> to the implementer."
>>
>> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a
>> co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay
>> set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.
>>
>> A unmodified co-resident 6621 implementation would not provide all of the
> information you need.  Similar to the point Thomas is making the "intent"
> of other AODVv2 routers is unknown.  Without knowing what other AODVv2
> routers are doing to reduce forwarding you can't assume your reductions
> will work.  The TLVs defined in 6621 both facilitate algorithmic behaviors
> and intent to forward multicast traffic based on those algorithms (i.e.
> they do not convey intent to reduce or resend AODVv2 messages based on
> those algorithms).  An identical TLVs (algorithmic and format speaking) but
> with a new TLV IANA assignments could convey that intent and perform the
> same way but that is not unmodified RFC6621
>
> Suggested edit.
>
> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit an information base
> built by an implementation of [RFC6621] modified for use with AODVv2. Using
> this information base, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of
> the reduced relay set, and use this information to determine whether the
> message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and
> the mechanisms for inter-process communication, are out of scope for this
> document, and left to the implementer."
>
>
> Justin
>
>

--089e013c6a72b49e1f052d2a16b2
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Justin,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Thanks for that suggestio=
n. Let me take that to the team.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><di=
v>Stan</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 2:18 PM, Justin Dean <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaste=
r@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Stan Ratliff <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Gents,=C2=A0<div><br>=
</div><div>Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand=
 it may well need additional word-smithing, but:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div>=
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&quot;One example of an optimization =
would be to exploit the information base built by an implementation of [RFC=
6621]. In environments where this information base is available, and access=
ible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part=
 of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set, and use this information to determin=
e whether the message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature of this opt=
imization, and the mechanisms for inter-process communication, are out of s=
cope for this document, and left to the implementer.&quot;=C2=A0</span></di=
v><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span></div><div><span style=
=3D"font-size:12.8px">Because what we&#39;re talking about here is leveragi=
ng the knowledge that a co-resident 6621 implementation would have about me=
mbership in the relay set, as a trigger for whether or not the message need=
s to be regenerated.=C2=A0</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px=
"><br></span></div></div></blockquote><div>A unmodified co-resident 6621 im=
plementation would not provide all of the information you need.=C2=A0 Simil=
ar to the point Thomas is making the &quot;intent&quot; of other AODVv2 rou=
ters is unknown.=C2=A0 Without knowing what other AODVv2 routers are doing =
to reduce forwarding you can&#39;t assume your reductions will work.=C2=A0 =
The TLVs defined in 6621 both facilitate algorithmic behaviors and intent t=
o forward multicast traffic based on those algorithms (i.e. they do not con=
vey intent to reduce or resend AODVv2 messages based on those algorithms).=
=C2=A0 An identical TLVs (algorithmic and format speaking) but with a new T=
LV IANA assignments could convey that intent and perform the same way but t=
hat is not unmodified RFC6621</div><div><br></div><div>Suggested edit.</div=
><div><br></div><div><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">&quot;One exampl=
e of an optimization would be to exploit an information base built by an im=
plementation of [RFC6621] modified for use with AODVv2. Using this informat=
ion base, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of the reduced re=
lay set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to=
 be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms =
for inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and le=
ft to the implementer.&quot;=C2=A0</span></div></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"=
><font color=3D"#888888"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></span><=
/div><div><br></div><div>Justin</div><div><br></div></font></span></div></d=
iv></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e013c6a72b49e1f052d2a16b2--


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From: Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Hi Thomas,

Just one comment in line.

On 3 Mar 2016 6:51 pm, <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
>
>
>> On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:42, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Gents,
>>
>> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it may
well need additional word-smithing, but:
>>
>> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information base
built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this
information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2
MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay
set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be
regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for
inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left
to the implementer."
>>
>> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a
co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay
set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.
>>
>
> I have mentioned this repeatedly in the past: saying RFC6621 is just not
sufficient here (even disregarding the =E2=80=9Cforwarding issue=E2=80=9D)
> If routers implement different flooding reduction algorithms to determine
membership in the multicast relay set, then you can relatively easily end
up with situations wherein part of your network is not covered by the
flooding operation.
>

I think you are saying it is not safe for aodvv2 to assume the network is
configured so that all routers are using the same selection algorithm?
Therefore, we need to also mandate that aodvv2 routers that use membership
of a relay set to influence regeneration MUST be configured to use the same
relay set selection algorithm.

Kind regards,
Victoria.

> If you want to specify that =E2=80=9Cflooding reduction is possible, but =
we=E2=80=99re
not going to tell you what algorithm=E2=80=9D then the minimum requirement =
is to
provide specific constraints on what those flooding reduction algorithms
are allowed to do, and what they are not allowed to do.
>
> In OLSRv2, we did that by way of specifying =E2=80=9Ceach router must sel=
ect a
relay set which satisfies these conditions=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99=
s one way to go =E2=80=94 but it
must be within the specification.
>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Stan
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are passed to
the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how
AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes messages
to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have other protocol
material it, and it sends the packets that way - and only one hop. This
also applies to earlier comments.
>>>
>>> Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason you need
a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>
>>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of
6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic
use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work
because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not
happening here.  All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the
only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to
regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for other
reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.  I
suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6621.
>>>>
>>>> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that
messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of
"forwarding".  At least it was clear to me in my reading.
>>>>
>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you
don't have one until you define it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding
whole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material=
.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>>>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>>>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <
charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Hello Chris,
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that it
could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC
5498. Written by your then co-author.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures me
that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful
functionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many
restrictions put into place -- often with the justification that such
restrictions made message data easier to parse.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know
whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast
relay set?  This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a
problem with AODVv2.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>> > Charlie P.
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">Hi Thomas,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Just one comment in line.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">On 3 Mar 2016 6:51 pm, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclau=
sen.org">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:42, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratli=
ffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gents,=C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand i=
t may well need additional word-smithing, but:=C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;One example of an optimization would be to exploit the infor=
mation base built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where =
this information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, A=
ODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast r=
elay set, and use this information to determine whether the message needs t=
o be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms=
 for inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and l=
eft to the implementer.&quot;=C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Because what we&#39;re talking about here is leveraging the knowle=
dge that a co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in t=
he relay set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regen=
erated.=C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have mentioned this repeatedly in the past: saying RFC6621 is just n=
ot sufficient here (even disregarding the =E2=80=9Cforwarding issue=E2=80=
=9D)<br>
&gt; If routers implement different flooding reduction algorithms to determ=
ine membership in the multicast relay set, then you can relatively easily e=
nd up with situations wherein part of your network is not covered by the fl=
ooding operation.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I think you are saying it is not safe for aodvv2 to assume t=
he network is configured so that all routers are using the same selection a=
lgorithm? Therefore, we need to also mandate that aodvv2 routers that use m=
embership of a relay set to influence regeneration MUST be configured to us=
e the same relay set selection algorithm. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Kind regards, <br>
Victoria. <br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; If you want to specify that =E2=80=9Cflooding reduction=
 is possible, but we=E2=80=99re not going to tell you what algorithm=E2=80=
=9D then the minimum requirement is to provide specific constraints on what=
 those flooding reduction algorithms are allowed to do, and what they are n=
ot allowed to do.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In OLSRv2, we did that by way of specifying =E2=80=9Ceach router must =
select a relay set which satisfies these conditions=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D That=
=E2=80=99s one way to go =E2=80=94 but it must be within the specification.=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, it does that. But it doesn&#39;t note that its messages a=
re passed to the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses a=
bout how AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn&#39;t. It pass=
es messages to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have oth=
er protocol material it, and it sends the packets that way - and only one h=
op. This also applies to earlier comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason=
 you need a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -- =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.=
dearlove@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:beb=
emaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the ap=
pendix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining a=
lgorithmic use for AODVv2 &quot;forwarding/regeneration&quot;.=C2=A0 The de=
fined TLVs won&#39;t work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwar=
ding which is not happening here.=C2=A0 All of this can be done after AODVv=
2 is finished and the only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY d=
ecide not to regenerate RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or f=
or other reasons which are outside of the scope of the base specification.=
=C2=A0 I suggest you go this route and remove any normative references to 6=
621. =C2=A0<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I&#39;d also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly =
specify that messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths o=
f &quot;forwarding&quot;.=C2=A0 At least it was clear to me in my reading.<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Justin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No, I&#39;m saying you need a mechanism to establish t=
hat set, and you don&#39;t have one until you define it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; And you can&#39;t just say &quot;use 6621&quot; becaus=
e that is about forwarding whole IP packets. Which you can&#39;t, because t=
hey contain non-AODVv2 material.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for what Ian intended, can&#39;t help you there.<br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@m=
nemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can&#39;t use RFC 6621. M=
aybe you intended that it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 archit=
ecture was imposed by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once,=
 and he assures me that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to in=
hibit useful functionality such as this.=C2=A0 Indeed, not until long after=
wards were so many restrictions put into place -- often with the justificat=
ion that such restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation =
cannot know whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the mu=
lticast relay set?=C2=A0 This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444=
 than a problem with AODVv2.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=
">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https:=
//www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
</p>

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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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> On Mar 3, 2016, at 20:18, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com =
<mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Gents,=20
>=20
> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it =
may well need additional word-smithing, but:=20
>=20
> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information =
base built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this =
information base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, =
AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] =
multicast relay set, and use this information to determine whether the =
message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature of this optimization, =
and the mechanisms for inter-process communication, are out of scope for =
this document, and left to the implementer."=20
>=20
> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that =
a co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the =
relay set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be =
regenerated.=20
>=20
> A unmodified co-resident 6621 implementation would not provide all of =
the information you need.  Similar to the point Thomas is making the =
"intent" of other AODVv2 routers is unknown.  Without knowing what other =
AODVv2 routers are doing to reduce forwarding you can't assume your =
reductions will work.  The TLVs defined in 6621 both facilitate =
algorithmic behaviors and intent to forward multicast traffic based on =
those algorithms (i.e. they do not convey intent to reduce or resend =
AODVv2 messages based on those algorithms).  An identical TLVs =
(algorithmic and format speaking) but with a new TLV IANA assignments =
could convey that intent and perform the same way but that is not =
unmodified RFC6621
>=20
> Suggested edit.
>=20
> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit an information =
base built by an implementation of [RFC6621] modified for use with =
AODVv2. Using this information base, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the =
node is a part of the reduced relay set, and use this information to =
determine whether the message needs to be regenerated. The exact nature =
of this optimization, and the mechanisms for inter-process =
communication, are out of scope for this document, and left to the =
implementer."=20
>=20

If you are requiring agreement in how to modify an information base, and =
how to interpret the content therein (and/or, on how to interpret =
over-the-wire signals for modifying the information base) you=E2=80=99ve =
long left the realms of =E2=80=9Cout of scope for this document, and =
left to the implementer=E2=80=9D and entered the realm of =
=E2=80=9Cspecification required for interoperability=E2=80=9D.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Mar 3, 2016, at 20:18, Justin Dean &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
 class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Stan Ratliff<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Gents,&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I =
understand it may well need additional word-smithing, =
but:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 12.8px;" class=3D"">"One example of an optimization =
would be to exploit the information base built by an implementation of =
[RFC6621]. In environments where this information base is available, and =
accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MAY determine whether the node =
is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set, and use this information =
to determine whether the message needs to be regenerated. The exact =
nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for inter-process =
communication, are out of scope for this document, and left to the =
implementer."&nbsp;</span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
12.8px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12.8px;" class=3D"">Because what we're talking about =
here is leveraging the knowledge that a co-resident 6621 implementation =
would have about membership in the relay set, as a trigger for whether =
or not the message needs to be regenerated.&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12.8px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">A unmodified =
co-resident 6621 implementation would not provide all of the information =
you need.&nbsp; Similar to the point Thomas is making the "intent" of =
other AODVv2 routers is unknown.&nbsp; Without knowing what other AODVv2 =
routers are doing to reduce forwarding you can't assume your reductions =
will work.&nbsp; The TLVs defined in 6621 both facilitate algorithmic =
behaviors and intent to forward multicast traffic based on those =
algorithms (i.e. they do not convey intent to reduce or resend AODVv2 =
messages based on those algorithms).&nbsp; An identical TLVs =
(algorithmic and format speaking) but with a new TLV IANA assignments =
could convey that intent and perform the same way but that is not =
unmodified RFC6621</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Suggested edit.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12.8px;" =
class=3D"">"One example of an optimization would be to exploit an =
information base built by an implementation of [RFC6621] modified for =
use with AODVv2. Using this information base, AODVv2 MAY determine =
whether the node is a part of the reduced relay set, and use this =
information to determine whether the message needs to be regenerated. =
The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for =
inter-process communication, are out of scope for this document, and =
left to the implementer."&nbsp;</span></div></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12.8px;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If you are requiring agreement in how to modify an =
information base, and how to interpret the content therein (and/or, on =
how to interpret over-the-wire signals for modifying the information =
base) you=E2=80=99ve long left the realms of =E2=80=9Cout of scope for =
this document, and left to the implementer=E2=80=9D and entered the =
realm of =E2=80=9Cspecification required for =
interoperability=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 20:24:29 +0000
To: Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/ZNheciu5L5-JJRASLBPDa6c0dSE>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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Necessary (as far as I know). Sufficient logically, but is it sufficient pro=
cedurally, to say that. My reading the runes on what the IESG will want is i=
mperfect (if it weren't I could become a very highly paid consultant just on=
 doing that) but it's in my danger zone for acceptability.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 19:35, Victoria Mercieca <vmercieca0@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Thomas,
>=20
> Just one comment in line.
>=20
> On 3 Mar 2016 6:51 pm, <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:42, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Gents,=20
> >>
> >> Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it may=
 well need additional word-smithing, but:=20
> >>
> >> "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information bas=
e built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this inform=
ation base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MAY de=
termine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set, and=
 use this information to determine whether the message needs to be regenerat=
ed. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for inter-proc=
ess communication, are out of scope for this document, and left to the imple=
menter."=20
> >>
> >> Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge that a=
 co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the relay se=
t, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.=20
> >>
> >
> > I have mentioned this repeatedly in the past: saying RFC6621 is just not=
 sufficient here (even disregarding the =E2=80=9Cforwarding issue=E2=80=9D)
> > If routers implement different flooding reduction algorithms to determin=
e membership in the multicast relay set, then you can relatively easily end u=
p with situations wherein part of your network is not covered by the floodin=
g operation.
> >
>=20
> I think you are saying it is not safe for aodvv2 to assume the network is c=
onfigured so that all routers are using the same selection algorithm? Theref=
ore, we need to also mandate that aodvv2 routers that use membership of a re=
lay set to influence regeneration MUST be configured to use the same relay s=
et selection algorithm.
>=20
> Kind regards,=20
> Victoria.=20
>=20
> > If you want to specify that =E2=80=9Cflooding reduction is possible, but=
 we=E2=80=99re not going to tell you what algorithm=E2=80=9D then the minimu=
m requirement is to provide specific constraints on what those flooding redu=
ction algorithms are allowed to do, and what they are not allowed to do.
> >
> > In OLSRv2, we did that by way of specifying =E2=80=9Ceach router must se=
lect a relay set which satisfies these conditions=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D That=E2=
=80=99s one way to go =E2=80=94 but it must be within the specification.
> >
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Stan
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearl=
ove@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are passed to=
 the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about how AODV=
v2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes messages to the=
 multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have other protocol materia=
l it, and it sends the packets that way - and only one hop. This also applie=
s to earlier comments.
> >>>
> >>> Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason you nee=
d a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.
> >>>
> >>> -- =20
> >>> Christopher Dearlove
> >>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
> >>>
> >>> On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the appendix of 6=
621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining algorithmic u=
se for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".  The defined TLVs won't work becaus=
e the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not happening here.=
  All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and the only hook require=
d would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenerate RREQs if they ar=
e unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which are outside of the=
 scope of the base specification.  I suggest you go this route and remove an=
y normative references to 6621. =20
> >>>>
> >>>> I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly specify that me=
ssages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "forwarding". =
 At least it was clear to me in my reading.
> >>>>
> >>>> Justin
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.de=
arlove@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that set, and you d=
on't have one until you define it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about forwarding w=
hole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODVv2 material.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Christopher Dearlove
> >>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Christopher Dearlove
> >>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> >>>>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> >>>>> > On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlin=
k.net> wrote:
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Hello Chris,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe you intended that i=
t could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture was imposed by RFC=
 5498. Written by your then co-author.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > I have talked with Ian about this more than once, and he assures m=
e that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhibit useful funct=
ionality such as this.  Indeed, not until long afterwards were so many restr=
ictions put into place -- often with the justification that such restriction=
s made message data easier to parse.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation cannot know wheth=
er or not it is running on a device that is part of the multicast relay set?=
  This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 than a problem with AOD=
Vv2.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Regards,
> >>>>> > Charlie P.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> manet mailing list
> >>>>> manet@ietf.org
> >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> manet mailing list
> >>> manet@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >>>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> manet mailing list
> >> manet@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >

--Apple-Mail-CBA1108B-43D1-4844-9885-2C5FD9715726
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	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Necessary (as far as I know). Sufficie=
nt logically, but is it sufficient procedurally, to say that. My reading the=
 runes on what the IESG will want is imperfect (if it weren't I could become=
 a very highly paid consultant just on doing that) but it's in my danger zon=
e for acceptability.<br><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=
</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris=
@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 19:3=
5, Victoria Mercieca &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vmercieca0@gmail.com">vmercieca0@=
gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta h=
ttp-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><p dir=3D"=
ltr">Hi Thomas,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Just one comment in line.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">On 3 Mar 2016 6:51 pm, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclaus=
en.org">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 03 Mar 2016, at 19:42, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratlif=
fstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Gents,&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Would text along the lines of this help to explain? I understand it=
 may well need additional word-smithing, but:&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; "One example of an optimization would be to exploit the information=
 base built by an implementation of [RFC6621]. In environments where this in=
formation base is available, and accessible by the AODVv2 process, AODVv2 MA=
Y determine whether the node is a part of the [RFC6621] multicast relay set,=
 and use this information to determine whether the message needs to be regen=
erated. The exact nature of this optimization, and the mechanisms for inter-=
process communication, are out of scope for this document, and left to the i=
mplementer."&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Because what we're talking about here is leveraging the knowledge t=
hat a co-resident 6621 implementation would have about membership in the rel=
ay set, as a trigger for whether or not the message needs to be regenerated.=
&nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I have mentioned this repeatedly in the past: saying RFC6621 is just no=
t sufficient here (even disregarding the =E2=80=9Cforwarding issue=E2=80=9D)=
<br>
&gt; If routers implement different flooding reduction algorithms to determi=
ne membership in the multicast relay set, then you can relatively easily end=
 up with situations wherein part of your network is not covered by the flood=
ing operation.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I think you are saying it is not safe for aodvv2 to assume th=
e network is configured so that all routers are using the same selection alg=
orithm? Therefore, we need to also mandate that aodvv2 routers that use memb=
ership of a relay set to influence regeneration MUST be configured to use th=
e same relay set selection algorithm. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Kind regards, <br>
Victoria. <br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; If you want to specify that =E2=80=9Cflooding reduction i=
s possible, but we=E2=80=99re not going to tell you what algorithm=E2=80=9D t=
hen the minimum requirement is to provide specific constraints on what those=
 flooding reduction algorithms are allowed to do, and what they are not allo=
wed to do.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In OLSRv2, we did that by way of specifying =E2=80=9Ceach router must s=
elect a relay set which satisfies these conditions=E2=80=A6.=E2=80=9D That=E2=
=80=99s one way to go =E2=80=94 but it must be within the specification.<br>=

&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 1:25 PM, Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, it does that. But it doesn't note that its messages are pa=
ssed to the multiplexer but (in Section 6.5 in particular) discusses about h=
ow AODVv2 sends messages over the Manet port. It doesn't. It passes messages=
 to the multiplexer, which assembles packets that might have other protocol m=
aterial it, and it sends the packets that way - and only one hop. This also a=
pplies to earlier comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Incidentally the modification of the message is another reason y=
ou need a dedicated process. As Justin as noted.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -- &nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.d=
earlove@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 18:10, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebe=
master@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; You could use the adopt the algorithmic sections in the app=
endix of 6621 along with a newly defined NHDP Hello message TLV defining alg=
orithmic use for AODVv2 "forwarding/regeneration".&nbsp; The defined TLVs wo=
n't work because the suggest standard IP packet SMF forwarding which is not h=
appening here.&nbsp; All of this can be done after AODVv2 is finished and th=
e only hook required would be that AODVv2 routers MAY decide not to regenera=
te RREQs if they are unwilling to forward traffic or for other reasons which=
 are outside of the scope of the base specification.&nbsp; I suggest you go t=
his route and remove any normative references to 6621. &nbsp;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I'd also like to point out that AODVv2 does correctly speci=
fy that messages only go one hop and are regenerated along the paths of "for=
warding".&nbsp; At least it was clear to me in my reading.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Justin<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Christopher Dearlove &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No, I'm saying you need a mechanism to establish that s=
et, and you don't have one until you define it.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; And you can't just say "use 6621" because that is about=
 forwarding whole IP packets. Which you can't, because they contain non-AODV=
v2 material.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; As for what Ian intended, can't help you there.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chris=
topher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Christopher Dearlove<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chris=
topher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mn=
emosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; On 3 Mar 2016, at 17:18, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Hello Chris,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; On 3/3/2016 9:03 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; Consequently AODVv2 can't use RFC 6621. Maybe y=
ou intended that it could, but the requirement to use the 5444 architecture w=
as imposed by RFC 5498. Written by your then co-author.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; I have talked with Ian about this more than once, a=
nd he assures me that he never imagined that RFC 5498 would be used to inhib=
it useful functionality such as this.&nbsp; Indeed, not until long afterward=
s were so many restrictions put into place -- often with the justification t=
hat such restrictions made message data easier to parse.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Do you mean to say that an AODVv2 implementation c=
annot know whether or not it is running on a device that is part of the mult=
icast relay set?&nbsp; This sounds much more like a problem with RFC 5444 th=
an a problem with AODVv2.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt; Charlie P.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https:/=
/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www=
.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.iet=
f.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
</p>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Hello folks,

In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for 
AODVv2, I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source 
and destination of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the 
source and destination of the route that was discovered. This is not a 
guarantee of a useful route, because intermediate routers are not 
authenticated, only the endpoints.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a 
useful adjunct to the existing hop-by-hop security as currently 
specified in AODVv2.

It can use more work:
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is the 
simplest way to make the conversion?
- Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be pretty 
simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.

I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to 
understand.

Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may 
well belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide 
resolutions for the many recent comments.

Regards,
Charlie P.


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From: Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com>
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it's clearly
specified.

RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:

     - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others. Especially,
the algorithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional check of neighbors,
and 2-hop neighborhood discovery. I don't know how it's handled in AODVv2.

     - A duplicate detection module that can be identity-based or
hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its message sequence number.

     - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't specify which
algorithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3
examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).

Without clear definition of the three modules above, even implementations
based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate -- I don't think it will
work or AODVv2 either.

>From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the issues can be
resolved.

best

Jiazi

On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <
charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> Hello folks,
>
> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms
> could be used with AODVv2.
>
> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the
> constructive variety is solicited and welcome.
>
> Here's the URL for the text:
> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it&#=
39;s clearly specified.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>RFC6621 is more like a &qu=
ot;framework&quot; for me:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A=
 neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others. Especially, the alg=
orithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional check of neighbors, and 2-ho=
p neighborhood discovery. I don&#39;t know how it&#39;s handled in AODVv2.=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A duplicate detection=
 module that can be identity-based or hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has alre=
ady its message sequence number. =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0- A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn&#39;t specify whic=
h algorithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3 examp=
les (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Without clear d=
efinition of the three modules above, even implementations based on RFC6621=
 won&#39;t be able to interoperate -- I don&#39;t think it will work or AOD=
Vv2 either.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>From the draft that you provided=
, I couldn&#39;t see how the issues can be resolved.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>best</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Pe=
rkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net=
" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms cou=
ld be used with AODVv2.<br>
<br>
I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the constructi=
ve variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
<br>
Here&#39;s the URL for the text:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkin=
s-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1148e078212e8e052d2cc6c9--


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Hello Jiazi,

AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does. AODVv2 
should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.

If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can use it.

If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding 
multicast suppression, or some other protocol) their improper operation 
can affect the network.

If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has 
to mandate that it work properly?  Well if it doesn't, then maybe DNS 
won't work and then applications can't resolve names, and can't ask AODV 
to establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.

I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some variety 
of multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate conveniently, 
but that's an optimization.  I don't know whether or not it would use 
NDHP, but it might steal some packet formats.

Regards,
Charlie P.




On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
> For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it's clearly 
> specified.
>
> RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:
>
>      - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others. 
> Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional 
> check of neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood discovery. I don't know how 
> it's handled in AODVv2.
>
>      - A duplicate detection module that can be identity-based or 
> hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its message sequence number.
>
>      - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't specify which 
> algorithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3 
> examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).
>
> Without clear definition of the three modules above, even 
> implementations based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate -- I 
> don't think it will work or AODVv2 either.
>
> From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the issues can be 
> resolved.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Perkins 
> <charles.perkins@earthlink.net <mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>> 
> wrote:
>
>
>     Hello folks,
>
>     There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
>     algorithms could be used with AODVv2.
>
>     I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the
>     constructive variety is solicited and welcome.
>
>     Here's the URL for the text:
>     https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>
>     Regards,
>     Charlie P.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     manet mailing list
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>


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    Hello Jiazi,<br>
    <br>
    AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does. 
    AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can
    use it.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding
    multicast suppression, or some other protocol) their improper
    operation can affect the network.<br>
    <br>
    If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2
    has to mandate that it work properly?  Well if it doesn't, then
    maybe DNS won't work and then applications can't resolve names, and
    can't ask AODV to establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.<br>
    <br>
    I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some
    variety of multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate
    conveniently, but that's an optimization.  I don't know whether or
    not it would use NDHP, but it might steal some packet formats.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CAN1bDFxEsbhECLu0gB15tu-TV8bOG6CBFzaGdwjVXR1ZFkSesw@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long
        as it's clearly specified. 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>     - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or
          others. Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require
          bi-directional check of neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood
          discovery. I don't know how it's handled in AODVv2. </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>     - A duplicate detection module that can be
          identity-based or hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its
          message sequence number.  </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>     - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't
          specify which algorithm should be used, but simply provided
          some guidelines and 3 examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR). </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Without clear definition of the three modules above, even
          implementations based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate
          -- I don't think it will work or AODVv2 either. </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the
          issues can be resolved.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>best</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Jiazi</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie
          Perkins <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net"
              target="_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"><br>
            Hello folks,<br>
            <br>
            There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
            algorithms could be used with AODVv2.<br>
            <br>
            I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of
            the constructive variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
            <br>
            Here's the URL for the text:<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            Charlie P.<br>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            manet mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org"
              target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet"
              rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 00:01:18 +0000
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/uuVIGg3xr1-oFx_H8XWP-pcABfQ>
Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to=
 AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep having to be said. AOD=
Vv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel one hop. Tha=
t doesn't allow for suppression. Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages=
 each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.

Please, will someone else please try to get this over.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 3 Mar 2016, at 23:31, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hello Jiazi,
>=20
> AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does.  AODVv2 s=
hould just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.
>=20
> If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can use it=
.
>=20
> If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding multicast s=
uppression, or some other protocol) their improper operation can affect the n=
etwork.
>=20
> If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has t=
o mandate that it work properly?  Well if it doesn't, then maybe DNS won't w=
ork and then applications can't resolve names, and can't ask AODV to establi=
sh routes for the IP addresses, etc.
>=20
> I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some variety of m=
ulticast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate conveniently, but tha=
t's an optimization.  I don't know whether or not it would use NDHP, but it m=
ight steal some packet formats.
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
>> For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it's clearly specif=
ied.=20
>>=20
>> RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:
>>=20
>>      - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others. Especiall=
y, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional check of neighbors,=
 and 2-hop neighborhood discovery. I don't know how it's handled in AODVv2.=20=

>>=20
>>      - A duplicate detection module that can be identity-based or hash-ba=
sed. For this, AODVv2 has already its message sequence number. =20
>>=20
>>      - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't specify which algor=
ithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3 examples (E-C=
DS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).=20
>>=20
>> Without clear definition of the three modules above, even implementations=
 based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate -- I don't think it will wor=
k or AODVv2 either.=20
>>=20
>> =46rom the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the issues can be r=
esolved.
>>=20
>> best
>>=20
>> Jiazi
>>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlin=
k.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hello folks,
>>>=20
>>> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms c=
ould be used with AODVv2.
>>>=20
>>> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the constru=
ctive variety is solicited and welcome.
>>>=20
>>> Here's the URL for the text:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Charlie P.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Please, will someone else please try to get this over.<br><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href="mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 23:31, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  
  
    Hello Jiazi,<br>
    <br>
    AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does.&nbsp;
    AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can
    use it.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding
    multicast suppression, or some other protocol) their improper
    operation can affect the network.<br>
    <br>
    If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2
    has to mandate that it work properly?&nbsp; Well if it doesn't, then
    maybe DNS won't work and then applications can't resolve names, and
    can't ask AODV to establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.<br>
    <br>
    I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some
    variety of multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate
    conveniently, but that's an optimization.&nbsp; I don't know whether or
    not it would use NDHP, but it might steal some packet formats.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAN1bDFxEsbhECLu0gB15tu-TV8bOG6CBFzaGdwjVXR1ZFkSesw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long
        as it's clearly specified.&nbsp;
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or
          others. Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require
          bi-directional check of neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood
          discovery. I don't know how it's handled in AODVv2.&nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- A duplicate detection module that can be
          identity-based or hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its
          message sequence number. &nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't
          specify which algorithm should be used, but simply provided
          some guidelines and 3 examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).&nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Without clear definition of the three modules above, even
          implementations based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate
          -- I don't think it will work or AODVv2 either.&nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the
          issues can be resolved.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>best</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Jiazi</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie
          Perkins <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target="_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"><br>
            Hello folks,<br>
            <br>
            There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
            algorithms could be used with AODVv2.<br>
            <br>
            I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of
            the constructive variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
            <br>
            Here's the URL for the text:<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            Charlie P.<br>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            manet mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org" target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  

</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>
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To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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> On 04 Mar 2016, at 00:31, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hello Jiazi,
>=20
> AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does.  AODVv2 s=
hould just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.
>=20
> If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can use it=
.

If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly is pro=
tocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, at least, t=
he requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct functioning of proto=
col X.

> If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding multicast s=
uppression, or some other protocol) their improper operation can affect the n=
etwork.
> If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has t=
o mandate that it work properly?=20

If protocol X relies on specific functions being supported in a specific way=
 from the DNS server, then yes - moreover, it has to specify those specific f=
unctions.


> Well if it doesn't, then maybe DNS won't work and then applications can't r=
esolve names, and can't ask AODV to establish routes for the IP addresses, e=
tc.
>=20
> I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some variety of m=
ulticast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate conveniently, but tha=
t's an optimization.  I don't know whether or not it would use NDHP, but it m=
ight steal some packet formats.
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
>> For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it's clearly specif=
ied.=20
>>=20
>> RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:
>>=20
>>      - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others. Especiall=
y, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional check of neighbors,=
 and 2-hop neighborhood discovery. I don't know how it's handled in AODVv2.=20=

>>=20
>>      - A duplicate detection module that can be identity-based or hash-ba=
sed. For this, AODVv2 has already its message sequence number. =20
>>=20
>>      - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't specify which algor=
ithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3 examples (E-C=
DS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).=20
>>=20
>> Without clear definition of the three modules above, even implementations=
 based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate -- I don't think it will wor=
k or AODVv2 either.=20
>>=20
>> =46rom the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the issues can be r=
esolved.
>>=20
>> best
>>=20
>> Jiazi
>>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlin=
k.net> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hello folks,
>>>=20
>>> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms c=
ould be used with AODVv2.
>>>=20
>>> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the constru=
ctive variety is solicited and welcome.
>>>=20
>>> Here's the URL for the text:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Charlie P.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div><br></div><div><br>On 04 Mar 2016, at 00:31, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
  
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
  
  
    Hello Jiazi,<br>
    <br>
    AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does.&nbsp;
    AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can
    use it.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div>If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly is protocol X's responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct functioning of protocol X.<div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div>
    If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding
    multicast suppression, or some other protocol) their improper
    operation can affect the network.<br></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div>
    If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2
    has to mandate that it work properly?&nbsp;</div></blockquote><div><br></div>If protocol X relies on specific functions being supported in a specific way from the DNS server, then yes - moreover, it has to specify those specific functions.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div> Well if it doesn't, then
    maybe DNS won't work and then applications can't resolve names, and
    can't ask AODV to establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.<br>
    <br>
    I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some
    variety of multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate
    conveniently, but that's an optimization.&nbsp; I don't know whether or
    not it would use NDHP, but it might steal some packet formats.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite="mid:CAN1bDFxEsbhECLu0gB15tu-TV8bOG6CBFzaGdwjVXR1ZFkSesw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long
        as it's clearly specified.&nbsp;
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or
          others. Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require
          bi-directional check of neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood
          discovery. I don't know how it's handled in AODVv2.&nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- A duplicate detection module that can be
          identity-based or hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its
          message sequence number. &nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;- A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't
          specify which algorithm should be used, but simply provided
          some guidelines and 3 examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).&nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Without clear definition of the three modules above, even
          implementations based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate
          -- I don't think it will work or AODVv2 either.&nbsp;</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the
          issues can be resolved.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>best</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Jiazi</div>
      </div>
      <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie
          Perkins <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target="_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote"><br>
            Hello folks,<br>
            <br>
            There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
            algorithms could be used with AODVv2.<br>
            <br>
            I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of
            the constructive variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
            <br>
            Here's the URL for the text:<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            Charlie P.<br>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            manet mailing list<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:manet@ietf.org" target="_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  

</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></body></html>
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From: Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>,  Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:01 AM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression
> to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep having to be said.
> AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel one hop.
> That doesn't allow for suppression. Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new
> messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.
>
> Please, will someone else please try to get this over.
>

Yeah, I think I need to rephrase my previous comment.
I think what AODVv2 really wants to do is to reduce the retransmission (or
regeneration) of RREQ messages -- that's OK, as long as it's clearly
specified.

I agree with Chris that considering AODVv2 is "regenerating" messages, some
special manipulation is required.

And on Charlie's comment:

 AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.If the
> nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can use it.


RREQ message dissemination is one of the most important steps for
establishing/maintaining routes. If AODVv2 recommends anything to improve
it, we would expect the specification to tell us how to do it, and how it
can interoperate with others who don't do that.

If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has to
> mandate that it work properly?  Well if it doesn't, then maybe DNS won't
> work and then applications can't resolve names, and can't ask AODV to
> establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.



Well, at least, for the moment, AODVV2 doesn't rely on DNS.
If you say, all right, we can put a hostname as RREQ originator
identification instead of IP address, I'm sure that people will ask you if
DNS is mandatory, what to do if DNS fails, and how to interoperate with
those routers only understand IP :)

best

Jiazi


>
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 23:31, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Jiazi,
>
> AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does.  AODVv2
> should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.
>
> If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can use it.
>
> If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding multicast
> suppression, or some other protocol) their improper operation can affect
> the network.
>
> If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has
> to mandate that it work properly?  Well if it doesn't, then maybe DNS won't
> work and then applications can't resolve names, and can't ask AODV to
> establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.
>
> I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some variety of
> multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate conveniently, but
> that's an optimization.  I don't know whether or not it would use NDHP, but
> it might steal some packet formats.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
>
> For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it's clearly
> specified.
>
> RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:
>
>      - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others.
> Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional check of
> neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood discovery. I don't know how it's handled
> in AODVv2.
>
>      - A duplicate detection module that can be identity-based or
> hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its message sequence number.
>
>      - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't specify which
> algorithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3
> examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).
>
> Without clear definition of the three modules above, even implementations
> based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate -- I don't think it will
> work or AODVv2 either.
>
> From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the issues can be
> resolved.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <
> charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms
>> could be used with AODVv2.
>>
>> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the
>> constructive variety is solicited and welcome.
>>
>> Here's the URL for the text:
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>>
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 1:01 AM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christo=
pher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left=
-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div>The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicas=
t suppression to AODVv2. This isn&#39;t a hard concept, but seems to keep h=
aving to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those on=
ly travel one hop. That doesn&#39;t allow for suppression. Furthermore AODV=
v2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Please, will someone else please try to get this o=
ver.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yeah, I think I need to re=
phrase my previous comment.=C2=A0</div><div>I think what AODVv2 really want=
s to do is to reduce the retransmission (or regeneration) of RREQ messages =
-- that&#39;s OK, as long as it&#39;s clearly specified.=C2=A0</div><div><b=
r></div><div>I agree with Chris that considering AODVv2 is &quot;regenerati=
ng&quot; messages, some special manipulation is required.=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>And on Charlie&#39;s comment:</div><div><br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left=
:1ex">=C2=A0AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining ro=
utes.If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can us=
e it.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>RREQ message dissemination is one of =
the most important steps for establishing/maintaining routes. If AODVv2 rec=
ommends anything to improve it, we would expect the specification to tell u=
s how to do it, and how it can interoperate with others who don&#39;t do th=
at.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,=
204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">If there is a DNS server in =
the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has to mandate that it work proper=
ly?=C2=A0 Well if it doesn&#39;t, then maybe DNS won&#39;t work and then ap=
plications can&#39;t resolve names, and can&#39;t ask AODV to establish rou=
tes for the IP addresses, etc.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<div>Well, at least, for the moment, AODVV2 doesn&#39;t rely on DNS.=C2=A0<=
/div><div>If you say, all right, we can put a hostname as RREQ originator i=
dentification instead of IP address, I&#39;m sure that people will ask you =
if DNS is mandatory, what to do if DNS fails, and how to interoperate with =
those routers only understand IP :)</div><div><br></div><div>best</div><div=
><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"au=
to"><div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br>--=C2=A0<div>Chri=
stopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></font></span><=
/div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 23:31, Charlie Perki=
ns &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">c=
harles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    Hello Jiazi,<br>
    <br>
    AODVv2 can&#39;t take responsibility for everything the network does.=
=C2=A0
    AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.<br=
>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can
    use it.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network don&#39;t work properly (say, regarding
    multicast suppression, or some other protocol) their improper
    operation can affect the network.<br>
    <br>
    If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2
    has to mandate that it work properly?=C2=A0 Well if it doesn&#39;t, the=
n
    maybe DNS won&#39;t work and then applications can&#39;t resolve names,=
 and
    can&#39;t ask AODV to establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.<br>
    <br>
    I&#39;d like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some
    variety of multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate
    conveniently, but that&#39;s an optimization.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know wh=
ether or
    not it would use NDHP, but it might steal some packet formats.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div dir=3D"ltr">For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long
        as it&#39;s clearly specified.=C2=A0
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>RFC6621 is more like a &quot;framework&quot; for me:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A neighbour discovery module that can be=
 NDHP or
          others. Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require
          bi-directional check of neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood
          discovery. I don&#39;t know how it&#39;s handled in AODVv2.=C2=A0=
</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A duplicate detection module that can be
          identity-based or hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its
          message sequence number. =C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 d=
oesn&#39;t
          specify which algorithm should be used, but simply provided
          some guidelines and 3 examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).=C2=A0</di=
v>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Without clear definition of the three modules above, even
          implementations based on RFC6621 won&#39;t be able to interoperat=
e
          -- I don&#39;t think it will work or AODVv2 either.=C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>From the draft that you provided, I couldn&#39;t see how the
          issues can be resolved.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>best</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Jiazi</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie
          Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@e=
arthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span=
>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>
            Hello folks,<br>
            <br>
            There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
            algorithms could be used with AODVv2.<br>
            <br>
            I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of
            the constructive variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
            <br>
            Here&#39;s the URL for the text:<br>
            <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rf=
c6621-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/=
draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            Charlie P.<br>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            manet mailing list<br>
            <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.=
org</a><br>
            <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</=
a><br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Using RFC 6621
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--001a1141fcaacce00d052d358140
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Chris,

I think Charlie's statement "If the nodes in the network offer multicast
suppression, AODVv2 can use it" might have caused more confusion. AODVv2
would not expect some other mechanism to handle multicast
suppression/forwarding of AODVv2 messages. AODVv2 messages inside RFC5444
packets, would not be considered for forwarding by this mechanism. We know
this.

AODVv2 would like to know if multicast suppression was being done in the
network, and in particular, if the router on which AODVv2 was running was
elected to forward multicast traffic. The idea is, that if AODVv2 could get
that knowledge, it could similarly decide whether to regenerate AODVv2
messages. It would not expect or desire any existing forwarding mechanism
to get involved with packets containing AODVv2 messages. All the handling
of AODVv2 messages is done by AODVv2.

The rest of the discussion seems to point at mandating more detail on how
multicast suppression would need to be configured across the network,
before AODVv2 could trust that, if it mimicked the relay set in the way it
decided to regenerate messages, route discovery would still succeed.

Kind regards,
Victoria.


On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression
> to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep having to be said.
> AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel one hop.
> That doesn't allow for suppression. Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new
> messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.
>
> Please, will someone else please try to get this over.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
> On 3 Mar 2016, at 23:31, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hello Jiazi,
>
> AODVv2 can't take responsibility for everything the network does.  AODVv2
> should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.
>
> If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can use it.
>
> If the nodes in the network don't work properly (say, regarding multicast
> suppression, or some other protocol) their improper operation can affect
> the network.
>
> If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2 has
> to mandate that it work properly?  Well if it doesn't, then maybe DNS won't
> work and then applications can't resolve names, and can't ask AODV to
> establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.
>
> I'd like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some variety of
> multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate conveniently, but
> that's an optimization.  I don't know whether or not it would use NDHP, but
> it might steal some packet formats.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
>
>
> On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:
>
> For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long as it's clearly
> specified.
>
> RFC6621 is more like a "framework" for me:
>
>      - A neighbour discovery module that can be NDHP or others.
> Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require bi-directional check of
> neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood discovery. I don't know how it's handled
> in AODVv2.
>
>      - A duplicate detection module that can be identity-based or
> hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its message sequence number.
>
>      - A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 doesn't specify which
> algorithm should be used, but simply provided some guidelines and 3
> examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).
>
> Without clear definition of the three modules above, even implementations
> based on RFC6621 won't be able to interoperate -- I don't think it will
> work or AODVv2 either.
>
> From the draft that you provided, I couldn't see how the issues can be
> resolved.
>
> best
>
> Jiazi
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie Perkins <
> charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621 algorithms
>> could be used with AODVv2.
>>
>> I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of the
>> constructive variety is solicited and welcome.
>>
>> Here's the URL for the text:
>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt
>>
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--001a1141fcaacce00d052d358140
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi Chris,</div><div><br></div>I think =
Charlie&#39;s statement &quot;If the nodes in the network offer multicast s=
uppression, AODVv2 can
    use it&quot; might have caused more confusion. AODVv2 would not expect =
some other mechanism to handle multicast suppression/forwarding of AODVv2 m=
essages. AODVv2 messages inside RFC5444 packets, would not be considered fo=
r forwarding by this mechanism. We know this. <br><br>AODVv2 would like to =
know if multicast suppression was being done in the network, and in particu=
lar, if the router on which AODVv2 was running was elected to forward multi=
cast traffic. The idea is, that if AODVv2 could get that knowledge, it coul=
d similarly decide whether to regenerate AODVv2 messages. It would not expe=
ct or desire any existing forwarding mechanism to get involved with packets=
 containing AODVv2 messages. All the handling of AODVv2 messages is done by=
 AODVv2.<br><br></div>The rest of the discussion seems to point at mandatin=
g more detail on how multicast suppression would need to be configured acro=
ss the network, before AODVv2 could trust that, if it mimicked the relay se=
t in the way it decided to regenerate messages, route discovery would still=
 succeed.<br><br></div>Kind regards,<br></div>Victoria.<br><div><div><div><=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, M=
ar 4, 2016 at 12:01 AM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.de=
arlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>The network does not and fundamenta=
lly cannot offer multicast suppression to AODVv2. This isn&#39;t a hard con=
cept, but seems to keep having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5=
444 packets, and those only travel one hop. That doesn&#39;t allow for supp=
ression. Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs A=
ODVv2 specific handling.</div><div><br></div><div>Please, will someone else=
 please try to get this over.<br><br>--=C2=A0<div>Christopher Dearlove</div=
><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">c=
hristopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br>On 3 Mar 2016, at 23:=
31, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20
    Hello Jiazi,<br>
    <br>
    AODVv2 can&#39;t take responsibility for everything the network does.=
=C2=A0
    AODVv2 should just take care of establishing and maintaining routes.<br=
>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network offer multicast suppression, AODVv2 can
    use it.<br>
    <br>
    If the nodes in the network don&#39;t work properly (say, regarding
    multicast suppression, or some other protocol) their improper
    operation can affect the network.<br>
    <br>
    If there is a DNS server in the network, does this imply that AODVv2
    has to mandate that it work properly?=C2=A0 Well if it doesn&#39;t, the=
n
    maybe DNS won&#39;t work and then applications can&#39;t resolve names,=
 and
    can&#39;t ask AODV to establish routes for the IP addresses, etc.<br>
    <br>
    I&#39;d like to write up an integrated version of AODVv2 with some
    variety of multicast suppression algorithm that seems to cooperate
    conveniently, but that&#39;s an optimization.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t know wh=
ether or
    not it would use NDHP, but it might steal some packet formats.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div>On 3/3/2016 2:46 PM, Jiazi YI wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     =20
      <div dir=3D"ltr">For me, using multicast suppression is OK, as long
        as it&#39;s clearly specified.=C2=A0
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>RFC6621 is more like a &quot;framework&quot; for me:</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A neighbour discovery module that can be=
 NDHP or
          others. Especially, the algorithms used in RFC6621 require
          bi-directional check of neighbors, and 2-hop neighborhood
          discovery. I don&#39;t know how it&#39;s handled in AODVv2.=C2=A0=
</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A duplicate detection module that can be
          identity-based or hash-based. For this, AODVv2 has already its
          message sequence number. =C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- A relay set selection module. RFC 6621 d=
oesn&#39;t
          specify which algorithm should be used, but simply provided
          some guidelines and 3 examples (E-CDS, MPR-CDS, S-MPR).=C2=A0</di=
v>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Without clear definition of the three modules above, even
          implementations based on RFC6621 won&#39;t be able to interoperat=
e
          -- I don&#39;t think it will work or AODVv2 either.=C2=A0</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>From the draft that you provided, I couldn&#39;t see how the
          issues can be resolved.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>best</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>Jiazi</div>
      </div>
      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Charlie
          Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@e=
arthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span=
>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>
            Hello folks,<br>
            <br>
            There has been some discussion about whether or not RFC 6621
            algorithms could be used with AODVv2.<br>
            <br>
            I wrote a short draft on the subject; feedback especially of
            the constructive variety is solicited and welcome.<br>
            <br>
            Here&#39;s the URL for the text:<br>
            <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-perkins-manet-using-rf=
c6621-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/id/=
draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00.txt</a><br>
            <br>
            Regards,<br>
            Charlie P.<br>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            manet mailing list<br>
            <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.=
org</a><br>
            <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"=
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</=
a><br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
 =20

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br><=
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manet mailing list<br>
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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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From nobody Fri Mar  4 03:47:41 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:47:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Ashish,=0A=
=0A=
Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.=0A=
=0A=
Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one =
=0A=
thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically =0A=
section 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN =0A=
trunk between router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at =0A=
the modem in some way?=0A=
=0A=
Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this =
=0A=
working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or =
=0A=
have I misunderstood what you are proposing?=0A=
=0A=
Regards=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
> Hello Stan,=0A=
>=0A=
> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=0A=
> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!=0A=
>=0A=
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/=0A=
>=0A=
> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=0A=
> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session. This=
=0A=
> is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=0A=
> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=0A=
> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.=0A=
> PFC).=0A=
>=0A=
> Request comments.=0A=
>=0A=
> Thanks=0A=
>=0A=
> -Ashish=0A=
>=0A=
> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]=0A=
> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM=0A=
> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>=0A=
> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org=0A=
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
> Ashish,=0A=
>=0A=
> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I encourage=
=0A=
> you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow control mechanism=0A=
> is likely for DLEP.=0A=
>=0A=
> Stan=0A=
>=0A=
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>     Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The control=0A=
>     and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never=0A=
>     pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air. If=
=0A=
>     desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different=0A=
>     priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.=0A=
>=0A=
>     Sent from Samsung Mobile=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>     -------- Original message --------=0A=
>     From: Henning Rogge=0A=
>     Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)=0A=
>     To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"=0A=
>     Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>     Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
>     On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>     <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>     > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802.3 P=
AUSE=0A=
>     > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) mecha=
nism. In=0A=
>     > essence, we don=92t send credits before packets are forwarded. Rath=
er we pause=0A=
>     > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffers ar=
e full.=0A=
>     > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenarios t=
oday.=0A=
>=0A=
>     Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel?=0A=
>=0A=
>     Henning Rogge=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>     _______________________________________________=0A=
>     manet mailing list=0A=
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


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References: <842811b9f2ec4385b25bfdc02f6bdb09@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <CAGnRvuoqWqAk8bEsurdYU-546BO=LNtFA1Ywr_qnNyaz9jPNiw@mail.gmail.com> <30lejepapqucojc0oo0juiov.1444920593548@email.android.com> <CALtoyo=0cw3zjRwiMEASO25kOo9jDJEWDggMGDToSWvrGtSWTQ@mail.gmail.com> <6cf459def84e464a92a94a321b9b4adc@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com>
From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 12:59:22 +0100
Message-ID: <CAGnRvuq13n7J273zVd4ihY+ciC9OELC1tcHEP0eby+E35NFBLw@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi,

I am a bit worried about the text at the beginning of chapter 6.1:

"IEEE 802.1Qbb standards PAUSE frame is re-interpreted to support this
scheme using both Class of Service and MAC."

Does this mean you are using 802.1Qbb in a different way than
suggested in the standard?

Doing so could mean that you need custom ethernet drivers on both
ends... and maybe even a custom switch.

Henning Rogge


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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Rick,

Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLAN 1=
 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors, e=
ach distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.

Thanks

Ashish

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@=
gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Ashish,

Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.

Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one th=
ing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically section 7=
.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk between =
router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in some =
way?

Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this wo=
rking with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or have=
 I misunderstood what you are proposing?

Regards

Rick

On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> Hello Stan,
>
> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=20
> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
>
> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=20
> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.=20
> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=20
> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=20
> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
> PFC).
>
> Request comments.
>
> Thanks
>
> -Ashish
>
> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Ashish,
>
> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=20
> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow control=20
> mechanism is likely for DLEP.
>
> Stan
>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=20
> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>
>     Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The control
>     and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
>     pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air. If
>     desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
>     priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
>
>     Sent from Samsung Mobile
>
>
>
>     -------- Original message --------
>     From: Henning Rogge
>     Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
>     To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
>     Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
>     On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
>     <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>     > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802.3 P=
AUSE
>     > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) mecha=
nism. In
>     > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Rather=
 we pause
>     > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffers ar=
e full.
>     > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenarios t=
oday.
>
>     Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel?
>
>     Henning Rogge
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     manet mailing list
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>


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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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From nobody Fri Mar  4 05:58:59 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:58:27 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Ashish,=0A=
=0A=
Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from =0A=
core DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs =0A=
that are MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the =
=0A=
DLEP peers.=0A=
=0A=
What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like =0A=
the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP =0A=
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I =0A=
proposed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a =0A=
MAC, just an identifying unique sequence of octets.=0A=
=0A=
In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC =0A=
becomes the unique destination identifier.=0A=
=0A=
Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft: =0A=
Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the =0A=
document into two might be clearer for the readers?=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
> Hi Rick,=0A=
>=0A=
> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLAN=
 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors,=
 each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.=0A=
>=0A=
> Thanks=0A=
>=0A=
> Ashish=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=0A=
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM=0A=
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffsta=
n@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi Ashish,=0A=
>=0A=
> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.=0A=
>=0A=
> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one =
thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically section=
 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betwee=
n router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in som=
e way?=0A=
>=0A=
> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this =
working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or ha=
ve I misunderstood what you are proposing?=0A=
>=0A=
> Regards=0A=
>=0A=
> Rick=0A=
>=0A=
> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
>> Hello Stan,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=0A=
>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!=
=0A=
>>=0A=
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=0A=
>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.=0A=
>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=0A=
>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=0A=
>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.=
=0A=
>> PFC).=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Request comments.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Thanks=0A=
>>=0A=
>> -Ashish=0A=
>>=0A=
>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]=0A=
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM=0A=
>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>=0A=
>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org=0A=
>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Ashish,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=0A=
>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow control=
=0A=
>> mechanism is likely for DLEP.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Stan=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The control=
=0A=
>>      and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never=0A=
>>      pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air. I=
f=0A=
>>      desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different=0A=
>>      priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      Sent from Samsung Mobile=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      -------- Original message --------=0A=
>>      From: Henning Rogge=0A=
>>      Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)=0A=
>>      To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"=0A=
>>      Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>      Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>>      <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>      > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802.3=
 PAUSE=0A=
>>      > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) mec=
hanism. In=0A=
>>      > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Rath=
er we pause=0A=
>>      > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffers =
are full.=0A=
>>      > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenarios=
 today.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel?=
=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      Henning Rogge=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>      _______________________________________________=0A=
>>      manet mailing list=0A=
>>      manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Fri Mar  4 06:20:54 2016
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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Rick,

The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the modem. =
It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on th=
e radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding pa=
ckets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (toward=
s another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarification =
can be added to the next version if that would help.

PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class eac=
h. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's wh=
y it is important to combine them.=20

Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN. =
So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.=20

Thanks
Ashish

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@=
gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Ashish,

Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from core D=
LEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that are =
MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP peers.

What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like the =
draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I propose=
d the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, just a=
n identifying unique sequence of octets.

In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC becomes t=
he unique destination identifier.

Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:=20
Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the doc=
ument into two might be clearer for the readers?

Cheers,

Rick

On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLAN=
 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors,=
 each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ashish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Ashish,
>
> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.
>
> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one =
thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically section=
 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betwee=
n router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in som=
e way?
>
> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this =
working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or ha=
ve I misunderstood what you are proposing?
>
> Regards
>
> Rick
>
> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>> Hello Stan,
>>
>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=20
>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
>>
>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=20
>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.
>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=20
>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=20
>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
>> PFC).
>>
>> Request comments.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> -Ashish
>>
>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>
>> Ashish,
>>
>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=20
>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=20
>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.
>>
>> Stan
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=20
>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>>      Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The control
>>      and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
>>      pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air. I=
f
>>      desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
>>      priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
>>
>>      Sent from Samsung Mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>      -------- Original message --------
>>      From: Henning Rogge
>>      Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
>>      To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
>>      Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>      Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>
>>      On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
>>      <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>      > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802.3=
 PAUSE
>>      > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) mec=
hanism. In
>>      > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Rath=
er we pause
>>      > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffers =
are full.
>>      > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenarios=
 today.
>>
>>      Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel?
>>
>>      Henning Rogge
>>
>>
>>      _______________________________________________
>>      manet mailing list
>>      manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
>


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Ashish,=0A=
=0A=
Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My =0A=
issue with them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your =0A=
method is not allowed.=0A=
=0A=
However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as =0A=
you have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without =0A=
PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs =0A=
doesn't work.=0A=
=0A=
I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that =0A=
covers the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your =0A=
draft covering PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension =0A=
if VLANs are in use.=0A=
=0A=
Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems =0A=
excellent.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
> Hi Rick,=0A=
>=0A=
> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the modem=
. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on =
the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding =
packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (towa=
rds another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarificatio=
n can be added to the next version if that would help.=0A=
>=0A=
> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class e=
ach. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's =
why it is important to combine them.=0A=
>=0A=
> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN=
. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.=0A=
>=0A=
> Thanks=0A=
> Ashish=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=0A=
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM=0A=
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffsta=
n@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi Ashish,=0A=
>=0A=
> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from core=
 DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that ar=
e MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP peer=
s.=0A=
>=0A=
> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like th=
e draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP=0A=
> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I propo=
sed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, just=
 an identifying unique sequence of octets.=0A=
>=0A=
> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC becomes=
 the unique destination identifier.=0A=
>=0A=
> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:=0A=
> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the d=
ocument into two might be clearer for the readers?=0A=
>=0A=
> Cheers,=0A=
>=0A=
> Rick=0A=
>=0A=
> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
>> Hi Rick,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLA=
N 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors=
, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Thanks=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Ashish=0A=
>>=0A=
>> -----Original Message-----=0A=
>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=0A=
>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM=0A=
>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=0A=
>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
>> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Hi Ashish,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one=
 thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically sectio=
n 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betwe=
en router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in so=
me way?=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this=
 working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or h=
ave I misunderstood what you are proposing?=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Regards=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Rick=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
>>> Hello Stan,=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=0A=
>>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!=
=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=0A=
>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.=0A=
>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=0A=
>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=0A=
>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.=
=0A=
>>> PFC).=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Request comments.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Thanks=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> -Ashish=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]=0A=
>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM=0A=
>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>=0A=
>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org=0A=
>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Ashish,=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=0A=
>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=0A=
>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Stan=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The contro=
l=0A=
>>>       and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never=
=0A=
>>>       pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air.=
 If=0A=
>>>       desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different=0A=
>>>       priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       Sent from Samsung Mobile=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       -------- Original message --------=0A=
>>>       From: Henning Rogge=0A=
>>>       Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)=0A=
>>>       To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"=0A=
>>>       Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>>       Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>>>       <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>>       > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802=
.3 PAUSE=0A=
>>>       > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) m=
echanism. In=0A=
>>>       > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Ra=
ther we pause=0A=
>>>       > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffer=
s are full.=0A=
>>>       > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenari=
os today.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel=
?=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       Henning Rogge=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>       _______________________________________________=0A=
>>>       manet mailing list=0A=
>>>       manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: [manet] comments on draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19
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Hello,
    I've taken a look at the latest spec and past comments and still
have some outstanding comments.  That said, I think the document could
be published as is -- but there is room for some real improvement that I
think will benefit implementations and interoperability down the road.

I have four "main" comments and then a bunch of minor and nit comments.

1)   section 10.16 and current hearbeat support only a multisecond
failure detection period.  Is this  sufficient for all current and
future DLEP applications?  If not, a 100ms resolution (at least) should
be defined.

2)  From my original review
>     - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
>       optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
>       allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
>       issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.

I'm happy to provide specific edits, removing the options, if that will
help resolve this issue. 

3) - There remains cases where  the same function/requirement defined in
two places, at least one of which is inconsistent (MAY in 1st, SHOULD in
second.) Defining formatting rules separately from processing is just
fine, but the current split/duplicate approach for rules *will* lead to
interop issues -- (Perhaps make the earlier sections informative 'theory
of operation' and section 9/2 the place with normative conformance
language.)

I'm happy to provide specific edits if that will help resolve this issue. 

> Again, this more than just a style point.  It's really hard to tell if
> all cases are covered from a review (and implementation) perspective
> with the current redundant and distributed approach to processing
> conformance.
>     ... Basically 2119 language should be used to cover
> required processing that impacts externally visible behavior.  (It can't
> apply to people or informative text.  Also each behavior should be
> formally specified only once.  Certainly narrative/informative text
> related to the processing can occur in multiple places as makes sense to
> describe the solution.
>

4) As stated in
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg18328.html
> DLEP-17 describes  Error handling in terms of a fixed "Failure Mode",
> See Table 3.  I like this formalization of something that was previously
> implicit.  I'd like to suggest going on step further by making
> Terminate|Continue explicit in the Status data item.  This will both
> ease initial implementation and facilitate forward compatibility.
I think this is a future interop issue and should be changed, so would
like to see some discussion on this.  That said, I don't think this is a
*required* change for publishing.   I'd say if there is no support of
this in 1 weeks time to drop this point.

The rest of my comments are more editorial in nature, or provide
specific examples of the above comments.  Line numbers from
https://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19.txt

Minor items that should be fixed, or at least discussed:

 - Section 3 seems really out of place and is hard to follow.  Suggest
moving to after 9 or, better yet, integrate in 5.3 or 10.

- Lines  446 and 1475/76 seem to be referring to the same behavior but
have different requirements.  (suggest consolidating)

- Section 4 - seems really out of place and is hard to follow.  Suggest
moving to before 9, integrate in the appropriate section.  Either way
the duplicate requirements in the section should be removed (e.g., see
lines 483-495 and 1145-1158)

- section 5.1 drop "on the UDP socket"

- Section 5.2 doesn't cover timeout case -- and partially duplicates
text in 10.3.  Suggest all details of processing to section 10. or
bringing forward all message processing rules to this section.

- Section 5.3, section 5.2 says a unknown metric will also result in a
state change, is this also not true for in-session state?

- Section 10 please pick one place to describe processing rules.

- section 11.  No need to repeat which messages/signals may carry the
data items as is already covered in 10.

- heuristics remain in 4 places in the document, as previously stated I
think an optional (aka default) approach these should be spelled out for
each.

Nit level issues (feel free to ignore):


-Abstract   
     -- should state what DLEP is not its motivation
-1. Intro
    -- should be broken into
    1. Intro
        states what the document defines
    1.1 Background
        Lines 158->211
    1.2 DLEP (or move to the start of section 2)
        Lines 213->291

 -   Lines 300-309 really belong in section 2.1

 -   Lines 869-880 belong in section 2.1

- Line 567 add (Defined in Section 6).

- line 717 add '  (Section 11.5)' after ' interval'

- line 791.  I assume this restriction is per modem/router pair? If so
this should be added.

- lines 823/824 lower case MAY and MUST.

- lines 945-950, this clause violates the IETF design principle aka
Postel's Maxim, that said see draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong

- Section 10 -   as signals and messages don't share the same number
space, both can start with 1 (i.e., the first message could be 1 not 3).

- line 1140, BOTH should be in lower case/

- section 10.17/18 - I'm not clear on when link characteristics metrics
would be used over destination provided metrics, but perhaps I'm missing
something obvious.

- sections 11.8->11.11, routing protocols generally treat host addresses
as prefixes with max prefix length - is there really a reason to special
case hosts addresses?

-    Section 12 is pretty weak, but let's see what the security review
says...

That's it,
Lou



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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:13:08 +0100
Message-ID: <CAGnRvupDxGzQiwCXepdNVCAbqTMAg3r-P2nr95hs0_EwediUgA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Rick Taylor
<rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
> Hi Ashish,
>
> Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My
> issue with them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your
> method is not allowed.
>
> However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as
> you have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without
> PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs
> doesn't work.
>
> I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that
> covers the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your
> draft covering PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension
> if VLANs are in use.
>
> Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems
> excellent.

Using VLAN as a "tunnel" to the radio could invite quite a bit of trouble...

There is the question about VLAN-in-VLAN (multiple DLEP radios
attached over VLAN-capable switch to router)...

or even VLAN-in-VLAN-in-VLAN (someone is sending VLAN tagged traffic
over a DLEP-Radio which is attached over a VLAN-capable switch.

Henning Rogge


From nobody Fri Mar  4 07:36:38 2016
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
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Subject: [manet] Comments on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-01
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Hi,
	I have a few comments on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window.  The first
issue to me is a blocking issue.

General issues/comments:

1) The metric of the credit windows is not defined.  E.g,. does one
credit represent 1 frame, 1 bit, 1 byte, etc.?  This should be trivial
to fix, e.g., add "in octets" to the Credit field definitions.

2) The security section should be aligned with the approach taken in
dlep (or vice versa), i.e., one uses TLS while the other doesn't

3) The iana section needs to align with DLEP and RFC5226.

Specific comments/issues:

>    1.  Reject the use of credits for this destination, via the
>        Destination Up Response message containing a Status data item
>        with a status code of 'Request Denied'.  (See status codes in
>        [DLEP]), or

Wouldn't it be better to use a new status code to disambiguate the new
reason for the rejection?


> packet at OSI Layer 2.

So you mean the MAC layer, but framing overhead and other encoding
should not be included?  Given the rest of the document and dlep is MAC
aware, why not just say the MAC layer?

Section 7.2:

s/XXXX/Credit Window Out of Sync

Section 8.1:
s/Reserved/Credit Increment

Section 8.2:
Unless the data prate is really low, I'd expect some amount of
differences from the time the message is sent to the time it is
processed is possible. How is this to be handled?  I think this should
be covered.

That's it,
Lou



From nobody Fri Mar  4 07:51:32 2016
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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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References: <842811b9f2ec4385b25bfdc02f6bdb09@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <CAGnRvuoqWqAk8bEsurdYU-546BO=LNtFA1Ywr_qnNyaz9jPNiw@mail.gmail.com> <30lejepapqucojc0oo0juiov.1444920593548@email.android.com> <CALtoyo=0cw3zjRwiMEASO25kOo9jDJEWDggMGDToSWvrGtSWTQ@mail.gmail.com> <6cf459def84e464a92a94a321b9b4adc@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EB381@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <d4c2cfd4507d4644909a72eceba534c2@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EB9B9@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <051ad977f5a5488b9622ccb5ef25883c@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EBCA1@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Rick,

Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback on wh=
at is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome, including =
"this is a very bad idea" :-)

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@=
gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Ashish,

Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My issue w=
ith them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your method is =
not allowed.

However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as you=
 have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without PFC, and =
PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs doesn't work.

I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that covers=
 the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your draft coverin=
g PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension if VLANs are in u=
se.

Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems excell=
ent.

Cheers,

Rick

On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the modem=
. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on =
the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding =
packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (towa=
rds another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarificatio=
n can be added to the next version if that would help.
>
> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class e=
ach. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's =
why it is important to combine them.
>
> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN=
. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.
>
> Thanks
> Ashish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Ashish,
>
> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from core=
 DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that ar=
e MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP peer=
s.
>
> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like=20
> the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP
> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I propo=
sed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, just=
 an identifying unique sequence of octets.
>
> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC becomes=
 the unique destination identifier.
>
> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:
> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the d=
ocument into two might be clearer for the readers?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>> Hi Rick,
>>
>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLA=
N 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors=
, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ashish
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
>> Cc: manet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>
>> Hi Ashish,
>>
>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.
>>
>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one=
 thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically sectio=
n 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betwe=
en router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in so=
me way?
>>
>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this=
 working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or h=
ave I misunderstood what you are proposing?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>>> Hello Stan,
>>>
>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=20
>>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
>>>
>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=20
>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.
>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=20
>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=20
>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
>>> PFC).
>>>
>>> Request comments.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> -Ashish
>>>
>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>> Ashish,
>>>
>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=20
>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=20
>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.
>>>
>>> Stan
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=20
>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The contro=
l
>>>       and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
>>>       pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air.=
 If
>>>       desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
>>>       priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
>>>
>>>       Sent from Samsung Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       -------- Original message --------
>>>       From: Henning Rogge
>>>       Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
>>>       To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
>>>       Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>       Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>>       On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
>>>       <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>       > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802=
.3 PAUSE
>>>       > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) m=
echanism. In
>>>       > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Ra=
ther we pause
>>>       > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffer=
s are full.
>>>       > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenari=
os today.
>>>
>>>       Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel=
?
>>>
>>>       Henning Rogge
>>>
>>>
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       manet mailing list
>>>       manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] comments on draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19
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Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:58:57 +0000
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19
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Thanks Lou,=0A=
=0A=
I am currently going back through Chris Dearlove's excellent comments, =0A=
and will include yours in the deep pass I'm doing.  We do have updated =0A=
text up our sleeve which does address some of your comments already.=0A=
=0A=
Meanwhile, some inline comments to most of your points...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 04/03/16 15:03, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
> Hello,=0A=
>      I've taken a look at the latest spec and past comments and still=0A=
> have some outstanding comments.  That said, I think the document could=0A=
> be published as is -- but there is room for some real improvement that I=
=0A=
> think will benefit implementations and interoperability down the road.=0A=
>=0A=
> I have four "main" comments and then a bunch of minor and nit comments.=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 1)   section 10.16 and current hearbeat support only a multisecond=0A=
> failure detection period.  Is this  sufficient for all current and=0A=
> future DLEP applications?  If not, a 100ms resolution (at least) should=
=0A=
> be defined.=0A=
=0A=
I can see your point, but you are the first to raise this.  I'm happy to =
=0A=
go with WG consensus on this one.  We have 16bits currently, but we can =0A=
go to 32bits millisecs or whatever people fancy.  Opinions please people?=
=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 2)  From my original review=0A=
>>      - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,=
=0A=
>>        optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally=0A=
>>        allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability=
=0A=
>>        issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.=0A=
>=0A=
> I'm happy to provide specific edits, removing the options, if that will=
=0A=
> help resolve this issue.=0A=
=0A=
Interval is mandatory, but may be 0, i.e. disabled.  This is intentional =
=0A=
as their may be out of band techniques to be used instead, and so I =0A=
intend to leave it as is.=0A=
=0A=
TCP Port is optional, but I believe removing it makes experimentation =0A=
with unusual setups or system integration much harder.  I'm very happy =0A=
to make life as simple as possible for the end user, e.g. =0A=
peer-discovery, but the implementer has to be reasonably capable, =0A=
checking the length field isn't really that onerous.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 3) - There remains cases where  the same function/requirement defined in=
=0A=
> two places, at least one of which is inconsistent (MAY in 1st, SHOULD in=
=0A=
> second.) Defining formatting rules separately from processing is just=0A=
> fine, but the current split/duplicate approach for rules *will* lead to=
=0A=
> interop issues -- (Perhaps make the earlier sections informative 'theory=
=0A=
> of operation' and section 9/2 the place with normative conformance=0A=
> language.)=0A=
>=0A=
> I'm happy to provide specific edits if that will help resolve this issue.=
=0A=
=0A=
These need to be sorted.  Can you detail any specific cases you see =0A=
using the line numbers from draft-19 as you have below please, and we'll =
=0A=
fix them.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
>> Again, this more than just a style point.  It's really hard to tell if=
=0A=
>> all cases are covered from a review (and implementation) perspective=0A=
>> with the current redundant and distributed approach to processing=0A=
>> conformance.=0A=
>>      ... Basically 2119 language should be used to cover=0A=
>> required processing that impacts externally visible behavior.  (It can't=
=0A=
>> apply to people or informative text.  Also each behavior should be=0A=
>> formally specified only once.  Certainly narrative/informative text=0A=
>> related to the processing can occur in multiple places as makes sense to=
=0A=
>> describe the solution.=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
> 4) As stated in=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg18328.html=0A=
>> DLEP-17 describes  Error handling in terms of a fixed "Failure Mode",=0A=
>> See Table 3.  I like this formalization of something that was previously=
=0A=
>> implicit.  I'd like to suggest going on step further by making=0A=
>> Terminate|Continue explicit in the Status data item.  This will both=0A=
>> ease initial implementation and facilitate forward compatibility.=0A=
> I think this is a future interop issue and should be changed, so would=0A=
> like to see some discussion on this.  That said, I don't think this is a=
=0A=
> *required* change for publishing.   I'd say if there is no support of=0A=
> this in 1 weeks time to drop this point.=0A=
=0A=
I went for a half-way house approach here, in the style of HTTP and =0A=
other ASCII error codes: <100 =3D Terminate, >=3D100 Continue.  I previousl=
y =0A=
proposed a bit-flag approach a-la SCTP status codes, but got push-back =0A=
from the list.=0A=
=0A=
I will need to update the IANA considerations section to make sure this =0A=
split is made obvious.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> The rest of my comments are more editorial in nature, or provide=0A=
> specific examples of the above comments.  Line numbers from=0A=
> https://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=3Dhttps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-=
manet-dlep-19.txt=0A=
>=0A=
> Minor items that should be fixed, or at least discussed:=0A=
>=0A=
>   - Section 3 seems really out of place and is hard to follow.  Suggest=
=0A=
> moving to after 9 or, better yet, integrate in 5.3 or 10.=0A=
=0A=
I will admit to struggling to find the right place to put this information.=
=0A=
>=0A=
> - Lines  446 and 1475/76 seem to be referring to the same behavior but=0A=
> have different requirements.  (suggest consolidating)=0A=
>=0A=
> - Section 4 - seems really out of place and is hard to follow.  Suggest=
=0A=
> moving to before 9, integrate in the appropriate section.  Either way=0A=
> the duplicate requirements in the section should be removed (e.g., see=0A=
> lines 483-495 and 1145-1158)=0A=
=0A=
As with Section 5, these parts have evolved in a slightly unstructured =0A=
way over the previous 17 drafts.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> - section 5.1 drop "on the UDP socket"=0A=
>=0A=
> - Section 5.2 doesn't cover timeout case -- and partially duplicates=0A=
> text in 10.3.  Suggest all details of processing to section 10. or=0A=
> bringing forward all message processing rules to this section.=0A=
>=0A=
> - Section 5.3, section 5.2 says a unknown metric will also result in a=0A=
> state change, is this also not true for in-session state?=0A=
=0A=
That is intentional to support the case of an extension data item used =0A=
during Session Intialization.  It's ok in that state, but not in the In =0A=
Session state.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> - Section 10 please pick one place to describe processing rules.=0A=
>=0A=
> - section 11.  No need to repeat which messages/signals may carry the=0A=
> data items as is already covered in 10.=0A=
=0A=
Noted.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> - heuristics remain in 4 places in the document, as previously stated I=
=0A=
> think an optional (aka default) approach these should be spelled out for=
=0A=
> each.=0A=
=0A=
We have tried a 'variable declaration with defaults' style to cover the =0A=
heuristics, but it ends up being more obtuse.  I agree it could be better.=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Nit level issues (feel free to ignore):=0A=
=0A=
All comments are welcome!=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> -Abstract=0A=
>       -- should state what DLEP is not its motivation=0A=
> -1. Intro=0A=
>      -- should be broken into=0A=
>      1. Intro=0A=
>          states what the document defines=0A=
>      1.1 Background=0A=
>          Lines 158->211=0A=
>      1.2 DLEP (or move to the start of section 2)=0A=
>          Lines 213->291=0A=
>=0A=
>   -   Lines 300-309 really belong in section 2.1=0A=
>=0A=
>   -   Lines 869-880 belong in section 2.1=0A=
>=0A=
> - Line 567 add (Defined in Section 6).=0A=
>=0A=
> - line 717 add '  (Section 11.5)' after ' interval'=0A=
>=0A=
> - line 791.  I assume this restriction is per modem/router pair? If so=0A=
> this should be added.=0A=
>=0A=
> - lines 823/824 lower case MAY and MUST.=0A=
>=0A=
> - lines 945-950, this clause violates the IETF design principle aka=0A=
> Postel's Maxim, that said see draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong=0A=
>=0A=
> - Section 10 -   as signals and messages don't share the same number=0A=
> space, both can start with 1 (i.e., the first message could be 1 not 3).=
=0A=
>=0A=
> - line 1140, BOTH should be in lower case/=0A=
>=0A=
> - section 10.17/18 - I'm not clear on when link characteristics metrics=
=0A=
> would be used over destination provided metrics, but perhaps I'm missing=
=0A=
> something obvious.=0A=
>=0A=
> - sections 11.8->11.11, routing protocols generally treat host addresses=
=0A=
> as prefixes with max prefix length - is there really a reason to special=
=0A=
> case hosts addresses?=0A=
>=0A=
> -    Section 12 is pretty weak, but let's see what the security review=0A=
> says...=0A=
>=0A=
> That's it,=0A=
> Lou=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> manet mailing list=0A=
> manet@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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Subject: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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I've read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which won't be compre=
hensive) in bite sized chunks rather than attempting anything consolidated.=
 And most can wait until next week at the earliest.

But one to kick off.

The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, it passe=
s them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives messages from the=
re. There are some other details, but that's the most important.

The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses and so =
on. It doesn't handle flooding, because its packets (which may contain mult=
iple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.

There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obviousl=
y which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like "please try =
to keep these messages together". If there are any additional requests that=
 should be supported, and are not incompatible with the architecture, then =
the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity to get those in.

But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, "multiplex" (as a whole or part word) onl=
y appears twice, both in the paragraph:

   [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
   certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.

I think that's not how I see it, that that's the role of the (subtlely diff=
erent) 5444 message creation process from addresses and attributes. I think=
 the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a protocol shouldn't be=
 modifying it. Note that I've expressed that as an opinion, though a quite =
strong one. A protocol might apply some sort of specialised signature, and =
we can't let the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 718=
2 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove them before the protocol ge=
ts the packet again.)

This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. If=
 it gets WGLCed as requested, I'll submit it to myself and the rest of the =
author team.

So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the multiplexer. T=
hat shouldn't matter (though it's always better to have it) if you assume 5=
498 applies, as it does. But unfortunately the draft still has material tha=
t contradicts that model, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) t=
he first two paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential change.

--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
__________________________________________________________________________

T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.de=
arlove@baesystems.com>

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,=
 Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai<http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#8217;ve read some of draft -13. I will provide co=
mments (which won&#8217;t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather tha=
n attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at th=
e earliest.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But one to kick off.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 cre=
ates messages, it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it rec=
eives messages from there. There are some other details, but that&#8217;s t=
he most important.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, mult=
icast addresses and so on. It doesn&#8217;t handle flooding, because its pa=
ckets (which may contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only=
 go one hop.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are other requests that can be made to the mul=
tiplexer, most obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but also t=
hings like &#8220;please try to keep these messages together&#8221;. If the=
re are any additional requests that should be
 supported, and are not incompatible with the architecture, then the 5444 u=
sage draft is a good opportunity to get those in.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, &#8220;multiplex&#=
8221; (as a whole or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5444] provides=
 a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [RFC5444] multi=
plexer MAY choose to optimize the content of<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Co=
urier New&quot;;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">&nbsp;&nbsp; certain message el=
ements to reduce control message overhead.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think that&#8217;s not how I see it, that that&#82=
17;s the role of the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process fro=
m addresses and attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole m=
essage from a protocol shouldn&#8217;t be modifying
 it. Note that I&#8217;ve expressed that as an opinion, though a quite stro=
ng one. A protocol might apply some sort of specialised signature, and we c=
an&#8217;t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 7=
182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove
 them before the protocol gets the packet again.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is probably something that could/should be in t=
he 5444 usage draft. If it gets WGLCed as requested, I&#8217;ll submit it t=
o myself and the rest of the author team.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts =
with the multiplexer. That shouldn&#8217;t matter (though it&#8217;s always=
 better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does. But unfortunate=
ly the draft still has material that contradicts
 that model, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two =
paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential change.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0=
07E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">--
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0=
07E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Christopher Dearlove<br>
Senior Principal Engineer<br>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#BEBEBE;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">__________________________=
________________________________________________<br>
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">T</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">: &nbsp;&#43;44 (0)1245 24=
2194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:b=
lue">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">BAE Systems Appli=
ed Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Esse=
x CM2 8HN.<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span style=3D"color:#3A8B92">www.=
baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">B=
AE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B9=
2;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guil=
dford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>
References: <56D9A3AB.2090506@labn.net> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EBF9D@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 11:43:38 -0500
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] comments on draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19
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Rick,
    Thanks for the response -- see below.

On 3/4/2016 10:58 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> Thanks Lou,
>
> I am currently going back through Chris Dearlove's excellent comments, 
> and will include yours in the deep pass I'm doing.  We do have updated 
> text up our sleeve which does address some of your comments already.
>
> Meanwhile, some inline comments to most of your points...
>
> Rick
>
> On 04/03/16 15:03, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Hello,
>>      I've taken a look at the latest spec and past comments and still
>> have some outstanding comments.  That said, I think the document could
>> be published as is -- but there is room for some real improvement that I
>> think will benefit implementations and interoperability down the road.
>>
>> I have four "main" comments and then a bunch of minor and nit comments.
>>
>> 1)   section 10.16 and current hearbeat support only a multisecond
>> failure detection period.  Is this  sufficient for all current and
>> future DLEP applications?  If not, a 100ms resolution (at least) should
>> be defined.
> I can see your point, but you are the first to raise this.  I'm happy to 
> go with WG consensus on this one.  We have 16bits currently, but we can 
> go to 32bits millisecs or whatever people fancy.  Opinions please people?

I think a minimum of 's/in seconds/in tenths of seconds (100s of
milisecond)/

>
>> 2)  From my original review
>>>      - Multiple ways to implement the same function are allowed, e.g.,
>>>        optional presence of Status, Interval and TCP port.  Generally
>>>        allowing such complicates testing and leads to interoperability
>>>        issues.  The document should pick one way and require it.
>> I'm happy to provide specific edits, removing the options, if that will
>> help resolve this issue.
> Interval is mandatory, but may be 0, i.e. disabled.  This is intentional 
> as their may be out of band techniques to be used instead, and so I 
> intend to leave it as is.
>
> TCP Port is optional, but I believe removing it makes experimentation 
> with unusual setups or system integration much harder. 
I suggest making tcp port mandatory, *not* dropping it.

>  I'm very happy 
> to make life as simple as possible for the end user, e.g. 
> peer-discovery, but the implementer has to be reasonably capable, 
> checking the length field isn't really that onerous.

yes, but testing the number of combination implied in having options
*is* onerous and does lead to interop problems.

Status is the other thing that I think should be mandatory.
 
>
>
>> 3) - There remains cases where  the same function/requirement defined in
>> two places, at least one of which is inconsistent (MAY in 1st, SHOULD in
>> second.) Defining formatting rules separately from processing is just
>> fine, but the current split/duplicate approach for rules *will* lead to
>> interop issues -- (Perhaps make the earlier sections informative 'theory
>> of operation' and section 9/2 the place with normative conformance
>> language.)
>>
>> I'm happy to provide specific edits if that will help resolve this issue.
> These need to be sorted.  Can you detail any specific cases you see 
> using the line numbers from draft-19 as you have below please, and we'll 
> fix them.

If you send me your working source file (word, xml, nroff, whatever)
I'll send back a marked up version.

Line numbers is too painful for this level of comments.
 
>
>>> Again, this more than just a style point.  It's really hard to tell if
>>> all cases are covered from a review (and implementation) perspective
>>> with the current redundant and distributed approach to processing
>>> conformance.
>>>      ... Basically 2119 language should be used to cover
>>> required processing that impacts externally visible behavior.  (It can't
>>> apply to people or informative text.  Also each behavior should be
>>> formally specified only once.  Certainly narrative/informative text
>>> related to the processing can occur in multiple places as makes sense to
>>> describe the solution.
>>>
>> 4) As stated in
>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg18328.html
>>> DLEP-17 describes  Error handling in terms of a fixed "Failure Mode",
>>> See Table 3.  I like this formalization of something that was previously
>>> implicit.  I'd like to suggest going on step further by making
>>> Terminate|Continue explicit in the Status data item.  This will both
>>> ease initial implementation and facilitate forward compatibility.
>> I think this is a future interop issue and should be changed, so would
>> like to see some discussion on this.  That said, I don't think this is a
>> *required* change for publishing.   I'd say if there is no support of
>> this in 1 weeks time to drop this point.
> I went for a half-way house approach here, in the style of HTTP and 
> other ASCII error codes: <100 = Terminate, >=100 Continue.  I previously 
> proposed a bit-flag approach a-la SCTP status codes, but got push-back 
> from the list.
>
> I will need to update the IANA considerations section to make sure this 
> split is made obvious.

formally splitting the range has the same effect, so WFM.

Thanks,
Lou

>
>> The rest of my comments are more editorial in nature, or provide
>> specific examples of the above comments.  Line numbers from
>> https://tools.ietf.org/idnits?url=https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19.txt
>>
>> Minor items that should be fixed, or at least discussed:
>>
>>   - Section 3 seems really out of place and is hard to follow.  Suggest
>> moving to after 9 or, better yet, integrate in 5.3 or 10.
> I will admit to struggling to find the right place to put this information.
>> - Lines  446 and 1475/76 seem to be referring to the same behavior but
>> have different requirements.  (suggest consolidating)
>>
>> - Section 4 - seems really out of place and is hard to follow.  Suggest
>> moving to before 9, integrate in the appropriate section.  Either way
>> the duplicate requirements in the section should be removed (e.g., see
>> lines 483-495 and 1145-1158)
> As with Section 5, these parts have evolved in a slightly unstructured 
> way over the previous 17 drafts.
>
>> - section 5.1 drop "on the UDP socket"
>>
>> - Section 5.2 doesn't cover timeout case -- and partially duplicates
>> text in 10.3.  Suggest all details of processing to section 10. or
>> bringing forward all message processing rules to this section.
>>
>> - Section 5.3, section 5.2 says a unknown metric will also result in a
>> state change, is this also not true for in-session state?
> That is intentional to support the case of an extension data item used 
> during Session Intialization.  It's ok in that state, but not in the In 
> Session state.
>
>> - Section 10 please pick one place to describe processing rules.
>>
>> - section 11.  No need to repeat which messages/signals may carry the
>> data items as is already covered in 10.
> Noted.
>
>> - heuristics remain in 4 places in the document, as previously stated I
>> think an optional (aka default) approach these should be spelled out for
>> each.
> We have tried a 'variable declaration with defaults' style to cover the 
> heuristics, but it ends up being more obtuse.  I agree it could be better.
>
>
>> Nit level issues (feel free to ignore):
> All comments are welcome!
>
>>
>> -Abstract
>>       -- should state what DLEP is not its motivation
>> -1. Intro
>>      -- should be broken into
>>      1. Intro
>>          states what the document defines
>>      1.1 Background
>>          Lines 158->211
>>      1.2 DLEP (or move to the start of section 2)
>>          Lines 213->291
>>
>>   -   Lines 300-309 really belong in section 2.1
>>
>>   -   Lines 869-880 belong in section 2.1
>>
>> - Line 567 add (Defined in Section 6).
>>
>> - line 717 add '  (Section 11.5)' after ' interval'
>>
>> - line 791.  I assume this restriction is per modem/router pair? If so
>> this should be added.
>>
>> - lines 823/824 lower case MAY and MUST.
>>
>> - lines 945-950, this clause violates the IETF design principle aka
>> Postel's Maxim, that said see draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong
>>
>> - Section 10 -   as signals and messages don't share the same number
>> space, both can start with 1 (i.e., the first message could be 1 not 3).
>>
>> - line 1140, BOTH should be in lower case/
>>
>> - section 10.17/18 - I'm not clear on when link characteristics metrics
>> would be used over destination provided metrics, but perhaps I'm missing
>> something obvious.
>>
>> - sections 11.8->11.11, routing protocols generally treat host addresses
>> as prefixes with max prefix length - is there really a reason to special
>> case hosts addresses?
>>
>> -    Section 12 is pretty weak, but let's see what the security review
>> says...
>>
>> That's it,
>> Lou
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>



From nobody Fri Mar  4 09:15:16 2016
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/kxBaD0v1SSczKvmL7lWkHvfbB38>
Subject: [manet] comments on draft-ietf-manet-dlep-19
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Hi Rick, Stan et al



Finally had a chance to go over DLEP 19 and only have minor observations.=
..



3.1 Router-requested Destinations

A Destination Announce message MAY also be used by a router to

   request information concerning a destination that it has previously

   declined interest in, via the 'Not Interested' status code, see

   Table 3, or declared as down, via the Destination Down message.



Reading the draft in sequence, this already presume the reader is aware t=
hat a router

can decline interest in destinations - even though this has not been stat=
ed yet. Agree with Lou that

perhaps Section 3 belongs later in the document.



4. Metrics

Section 4, point 2 -

Suggest some consistency when using terms  "session-wide context" and "mo=
dem-wide context"



Section 4 : Link Characteristics  Request message.  I am pleased to see t=
his message in DLEP

(was this added in Draft 18?)





5. DLEP Session Flow



Is there a better way of stating that the Peer Discovery state is optiona=
l for routers as it

almost contradicts the opening statement "All peers participating in a DL=
EP session

transition through five (5)distinct states during the lifetime of a DLEP =
session:" ?



Perhaps something along the lines of :



"The Peer Discovery state is OPTIONAL to implement for routers.  If it is=
 not used, then a

preconfigured TCP address/port combination MUST be provided to the router=
, and the router will

immediately transition to the Session Initialization state."



5.1 Peer Discovery State



"It is up to the router implementation if Peer Discovery signals continue=
 to be sent after the

device has transitioned to the Session Initialization state."



Wouldn't we also want to specify that a Modem MUST silently ignore Peer D=
iscovery signals from

routers with which it has already established a DLEP Session? If we don't=
 then we can easily end up

with an infinite ridiculously large number of DLEP sessions between the s=
ame modem and router.



5.4 Session Termination State



Is the text "as the result of an invalid message or error" necessary in t=
his para?



NIT: "then if is RECOMMENDED" typo: should read "then it is RECOMMENDED"



"Any messages received after either sending or receiving a Session Termin=
ation message MUST be silently ignored."

Presumably "Any messages" means  'Any messages other than Session Termina=
tion Response message' ?



6. Transaction Model



Might suggest for clarity that one request per destination is in terms of=
 the DLEP session. The Session Initialization transaction

description seems a little out of place here, and also clarify that recei=
ving multiple Session Initialization requests from different

peers IS permissable



9.1 DLEP Signal Header

NIT: "Signal/Message Type" should read "Signal Type"



10. I'm tempted to suggest splitting the table into two - "DLEP Signals" =
and "DLEP Messages" since DLEP signal types must not appear in DLEP messa=
gea

and vice versa?





QUESTION :

Destination Announce messages. If a router issues a Destination Announce =
message for a given MAC, is it free to then further issue a Destination A=
nnounce (not interested)

if for some reason it has changed its mind? Or is it restricted to issuin=
g the "not interested" after receiving a Destination Up message for that =
MAC?



11.1 Status



NIT: Suggest reword "Acknowledgement messages" to "Response messages"

NIT: In the case of a "Not Interested" status, is this strictly an indica=
tion of success (or failure)? If not, then it contradicts the text in par=
a 2



11.19: RLQR

NIT: Clarify "A non-dimensional 8-bit integer, 0-100, representing relati=
ve link quality" by adding "of the receive link" (or similar)



11.20 RLQT:

NIT: As above but for transmit



QUESTION : RESR and REST are explicitly declared as percentages. RLQR/RLQ=
T are explicitly declared as "non-dimensional". Is this deliberate? Both =
accept 0-100 and to my tired brain both

would appear to indicate a percentage. If not, then why not open RLQR/RLQ=
T to the full 0-255 range?





Regards



Steve































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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Hi Rick, Stan et al<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Finally had a chanc=
e to go over DLEP 19 and only have minor observations&#8230;<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">3.1 Router-requeste=
d Destinations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">A Destination Annou=
nce message MAY also be used by a router to<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; reques=
t information concerning a destination that it has previously<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; declin=
ed interest in, via the 'Not Interested' status code, see<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&nbsp;&nbsp; Table =
3, or declared as down, via the Destination Down message.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Reading the draft i=
n sequence, this already presume the reader is aware that a router<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">can decline interes=
t in destinations - even though this has not been stated yet. Agree with =
Lou that<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">perhaps Section 3 b=
elongs later in the document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">4. Metrics<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 4, point 2 =
- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Suggest some consis=
tency when using terms &nbsp;&quot;session-wide context&quot; and &quot;m=
odem-wide context&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Section 4 : Link Ch=
aracteristics &nbsp;Request message.&nbsp; I am pleased to see this messa=
ge in DLEP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">(was this added in =
Draft 18?)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">5. DLEP Session Flo=
w<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Is there a better w=
ay of stating that the Peer Discovery state is optional for routers as it=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">almost contradicts =
the opening statement &quot;All peers participating in a DLEP session<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">transition through =
five (5)distinct states during the lifetime of a DLEP session:&quot; ?<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Perhaps something a=
long the lines of :<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&#8220;The Peer Dis=
covery state is OPTIONAL to implement for routers.&nbsp; If it is not use=
d, then a<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">preconfigured TCP a=
ddress/port combination MUST be provided to the router, and the router wi=
ll<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">immediately transit=
ion to the Session Initialization state.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">5.1 Peer Discovery =
State<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">&#8220;It is up to =
the router implementation if Peer Discovery signals continue to be sent a=
fter the<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">device has transiti=
oned to the Session Initialization state.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Wouldn&#8217;t we a=
lso want to specify that a Modem MUST silently ignore Peer Discovery sign=
als from<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">routers with which =
it has already established a DLEP Session? If we don&#8217;t then we can =
easily end up<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">with an <s>infinite=
</s> ridiculously large number of DLEP sessions between the same modem an=
d router.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">5.4 Session Termina=
tion State<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">Is the text &#8220;=
as the result of an invalid message or error&#8220; necessary in this par=
a?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span style=3D"color:black">NIT: &#8220;</span>=
<span lang=3D"EN">then if is RECOMMENDED&#8221; typo: should read &#8220;=
then it is RECOMMENDED&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">&#8220;Any messages received =
after either sending or receiving a Session Termination message MUST be s=
ilently ignored.&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">Presumably &#8220;Any message=
s&#8221; means &nbsp;&#8216;Any messages other than Session Termination R=
esponse message&#8217; ?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">6. Transaction Model<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">Might suggest for clarity tha=
t one request per destination is in terms of the DLEP session. The Sessio=
n Initialization transaction<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">description seems a little ou=
t of place here, and also clarify that receiving multiple Session Initial=
ization requests from different<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">peers IS permissable<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">9.1 DLEP Signal Header<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">NIT: &#8220;Signal/Message Ty=
pe&#8221; should read &#8220;Signal Type&#8221;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">10. I&#8217;m tempted to sugg=
est splitting the table into two &#8211; &#8220;DLEP Signals&#8221; and &=
#8220;DLEP Messages&#8221; since DLEP signal types must not appear in DLE=
P messagea<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">and vice versa?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">QUESTION :<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">Destination Announce messages=
. If a router issues a Destination Announce message for a given MAC, is i=
t free to then further issue a Destination Announce (not interested)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">if for some reason it has cha=
nged its mind? Or is it restricted to issuing the &#8220;not interested&#=
8221; after receiving a Destination Up message for that MAC?<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">11.1 Status<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">NIT: Suggest reword &#8220;Ac=
knowledgement messages&#8221; to &#8220;Response messages&#8221;<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">NIT: In the case of a &#8220;=
Not Interested&#8221; status, is this strictly an indication of success (=
or failure)? If not, then it contradicts the text in para 2<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">11.19: RLQR <o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">NIT: Clarify &#8220;A non-dim=
ensional 8-bit integer, 0-100, representing relative link quality&#8221; =
by adding &#8220;of the receive link&#8221; (or similar)<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">11.20 RLQT:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">NIT: As above but for transmi=
t<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">QUESTION : RESR and REST are =
explicitly declared as percentages. RLQR/RLQT are explicitly declared as =
&#8220;non-dimensional&#8221;. Is this deliberate? Both accept 0-100 and =
to my tired brain both<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">would appear to indicate a pe=
rcentage. If not, then why not open RLQR/RLQT to the full 0-255 range?<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN">Steve<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><span lang=3D"EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Comments on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-01
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Lou,

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>         I have a few comments on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window.  The first
> issue to me is a blocking issue.
>
> General issues/comments:
>
> 1) The metric of the credit windows is not defined.  E.g,. does one
> credit represent 1 frame, 1 bit, 1 byte, etc.?  This should be trivial
> to fix, e.g., add "in octets" to the Credit field definitions.
>

The last sentence of section 2 (Overview) says:

 Credits represent the number of data plane octets, or an increment in
   the number of data plane octets, that can be sent on a given window
   at OSI Layer 2 to the receiver.


That said, I can add the suggested text .



>
> 2) The security section should be aligned with the approach taken in
> dlep (or vice versa), i.e., one uses TLS while the other doesn't
>

Yes. That will be corrected.


>
> 3) The iana section needs to align with DLEP and RFC5226.
>

OK


>
> Specific comments/issues:
>
> >    1.  Reject the use of credits for this destination, via the
> >        Destination Up Response message containing a Status data item
> >        with a status code of 'Request Denied'.  (See status codes in
> >        [DLEP]), or
>
> Wouldn't it be better to use a new status code to disambiguate the new
> reason for the rejection?
>

I really didn't (don't) see a need. The Dest Up is either accepted or
rejected. That said, I'm willing to add an additional status code.


>
>
> > packet at OSI Layer 2.
>
> So you mean the MAC layer, but framing overhead and other encoding
> should not be included?  Given the rest of the document and dlep is MAC
> aware, why not just say the MAC layer?
>

Whatever it takes to make people happy...



>
> Section 7.2:
>
> s/XXXX/Credit Window Out of Sync
>
> Section 8.1:
> s/Reserved/Credit Increment
>

Thanks for those catches.


>
> Section 8.2:
> Unless the data prate is really low, I'd expect some amount of
> differences from the time the message is sent to the time it is
> processed is possible. How is this to be handled?  I think this should
> be covered.
>

I'll see if I can craft adequate text.

Regards,
Stan




>
> That's it,
> Lou
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Lou,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 10:36 AM, Lou Berger <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-le=
ft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have a few comments on draft-ietf-manet-credi=
t-window.=C2=A0 The first<br>
issue to me is a blocking issue.<br>
<br>
General issues/comments:<br>
<br>
1) The metric of the credit windows is not defined.=C2=A0 E.g,. does one<br=
>
credit represent 1 frame, 1 bit, 1 byte, etc.?=C2=A0 This should be trivial=
<br>
to fix, e.g., add &quot;in octets&quot; to the Credit field definitions.<br=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The last sentence of section 2 (Overview)=
 says:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:13=
.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"> Credits represe=
nt the number of data plane octets, or an increment in
   the number of data plane octets, that can be sent on a given window
   at OSI Layer 2 to the receiver.</pre><pre class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre></di=
v><div>That said, I can add the suggested text .</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
2) The security section should be aligned with the approach taken in<br>
dlep (or vice versa), i.e., one uses TLS while the other doesn&#39;t<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. That will be corrected.</div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
3) The iana section needs to align with DLEP and RFC5226.<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>OK</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Specific comments/issues:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 Reject the use of credits for this destination, =
via the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Destination Up Response message containing =
a Status data item<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 with a status code of &#39;Request Denied&#=
39;.=C2=A0 (See status codes in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 [DLEP]), or<br>
<br>
Wouldn&#39;t it be better to use a new status code to disambiguate the new<=
br>
reason for the rejection?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I really didn=
&#39;t (don&#39;t) see a need. The Dest Up is either accepted or rejected. =
That said, I&#39;m willing to add an additional status code.=C2=A0</div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
&gt; packet at OSI Layer 2.<br>
<br>
So you mean the MAC layer, but framing overhead and other encoding<br>
should not be included?=C2=A0 Given the rest of the document and dlep is MA=
C<br>
aware, why not just say the MAC layer?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
Whatever it takes to make people happy...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s=
tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Section 7.2:<br>
<br>
s/XXXX/Credit Window Out of Sync<br>
<br>
Section 8.1:<br>
s/Reserved/Credit Increment<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks for =
those catches.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color=
:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Section 8.2:<br>
Unless the data prate is really low, I&#39;d expect some amount of<br>
differences from the time the message is sent to the time it is<br>
processed is possible. How is this to be handled?=C2=A0 I think this should=
<br>
be covered.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll see if I can craft=
 adequate text.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
That&#39;s it,<br>
Lou<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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I'm a fan of both pause and pfc, and could see how it could play a role
here, but I do worry about non-standard usage of 802.1 "stuff".  Have
you considered 802.1 Qau (CN/QCN)?

On 3/4/2016 11:01 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> Hi Henning,
>
> So based on the earlier comment by Rick, the use of VLAN is itself incompatible with the current core DLEP philosophy. By implication, VLAN-in-VLAN or VLAN-in-VLAN-VLAN would also be incompatible. 
>
> As Rick suggested, should we do a draft "DLEP and VLANs" that captures these encapsulation scenarios? What type of encapsulation is being used would have to be negotiated during "Neighbor UP". 
>
> The PFC draft (the present one) can then be modified to refer to the above draft. All these will be optional extensions (again as per Rick's suggestion).
>
> I would like to hear from everyone if this is an acceptable approach.
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Henning Rogge [mailto:hrogge@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:43 PM
> To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
> Cc: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 4:01 PM, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
>> Hi Ashish,
>>
>> Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My 
>> issue with them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, 
>> your method is not allowed.
>>
>> However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, 
>> as you have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used 
>> without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP 
>> and VLANs doesn't work.
>>
>> I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that 
>> covers the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your 
>> draft covering PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension 
>> if VLANs are in use.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems 
>> excellent.
> Using VLAN as a "tunnel" to the radio could invite quite a bit of trouble...
>
> There is the question about VLAN-in-VLAN (multiple DLEP radios attached over VLAN-capable switch to router)...
>
> or even VLAN-in-VLAN-in-VLAN (someone is sending VLAN tagged traffic over a DLEP-Radio which is attached over a VLAN-capable switch.
>
> Henning Rogge
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>



From nobody Fri Mar  4 12:33:53 2016
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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Comments on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-01
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On 3/4/2016 3:29 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> That said, I can add the suggested text .
>  
Thanks.

Lou


From nobody Fri Mar  4 20:31:42 2016
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From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 reivew
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Hello Justin,

I have devised some text for an expanded introduction.  Please take a look:

>    The Ad hoc On-Demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) protocol enables
>    dynamic, self-starting, multihop routing between participating mobile
>    nodes wishing to establish and maintain an ad hoc network. The
>    basic operations of the AODVv2 protocol are route discovery and
>    route maintenance.  AODVv2 does not require nodes to maintain routes
>    to destinations that are not in active communication.  AODVv2 allows
>    mobile nodes to respond to link breakages and changes in network
>    topology in a timely manner.  The operation of AODVv2 is loop-free,
>    and by avoiding the Bellman-Ford "counting to infinity" problem
>    offers quick convergence when the ad hoc network topology changes
>    (typically, when a node moves in the network).  When links break,
>    AODVv2 causes the affected set of nodes to be notified so that they
>    are able to invalidate the routes using the lost link.
>
>    One distinguishing feature of AODVv2 is its use of a destination
>    sequence number for each route entry.  The destination sequence
>    number is created by the destination to be included along with any
>    route information it sends to requesting nodes.  Using destination
>    sequence numbers ensures loop freedom and is simple to program.
>    Given the choice between two routes to a destination, a requesting
>    node is required to select the one with the greatest sequence number.
>
>    Compared to AODV [RFC3561], AODVv2 makes some features optional,
>    notably intermediate route replies, expanding ring search, and
>    precursor lists.  Hello messages and local repair have been removed.
>    AODVv2 provides a mechanism for the use of multiple metric types.
>    Message formats have been updated and made compliant with [RFC5444].
>    AODVv2 control messages are defined as sets of data, which are mapped
>    to message elements using the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format
>    defined in [RFC5444] and sent using the parameters in [RFC5498].
>    Verification of link bidirectionality has been substantially 
> improved, and
>    additional refinements made for route timeouts and state management.


On 3/1/2016 8:18 PM, Justin Dean wrote:
>     The Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing
>     protocol (formerly named DYMO) enables on-demand, multihop unicast
>     routing among AODVv2 routers in mobile ad hoc networks (MANETs)
>     [RFC2501].
> (We jumped right in here would prefer some intro to AODV and how AODVv2 is derived from that work. JWD)
>


Regards,
Charlie P.


From nobody Fri Mar  4 20:39:54 2016
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Subject: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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Hello folks,

In order to enable routing over multi-interface addresses (call them 
MIAs) in the presence of uni-directional links, a node receiving a 
multicast packet has to be able to identify the sending interface of the 
transmitter.  For this purpose, it is natural to simply use the MAC address.

With this formulation, we then require that the node receiving a RREQ 
packet has to be able to identify the MAC address of the sender.  This 
seems to work well, and enables MIAs.   Then, if that node receives a 
RREP, it has to send to the MAC address from which the RREQ came.  The 
second part is natural because already routers already require MAC 
address information so that they can send packets.

So I propose that we store the MAC address along with the information in 
the Multicast Table.  We need to allow multiple *different* RREQ 
messages to be stored in that table, in case of receiving multiple RREQ 
messages from different sending MAC addresses of a device using MIAs.

Regards,
Charlie P.


From nobody Fri Mar  4 22:53:09 2016
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:52:34 +0100
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Hi Charlie,

why do you need the MAC address? MAC addresses are always a pain to
use because the normal network APIs don't deliver them to you unless
you use a RAW socket, which spams your routing agent with all IP
traffic.

Shouldn't the combination of "outgoing local interface" and "remote IP
address" be enough to identify and reach the neighbor?

Henning Rogge

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Charlie Perkins
<charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> In order to enable routing over multi-interface addresses (call them MIAs)
> in the presence of uni-directional links, a node receiving a multicast
> packet has to be able to identify the sending interface of the transmitter.
> For this purpose, it is natural to simply use the MAC address.
>
> With this formulation, we then require that the node receiving a RREQ packet
> has to be able to identify the MAC address of the sender.  This seems to
> work well, and enables MIAs.   Then, if that node receives a RREP, it has to
> send to the MAC address from which the RREQ came.  The second part is
> natural because already routers already require MAC address information so
> that they can send packets.
>
> So I propose that we store the MAC address along with the information in the
> Multicast Table.  We need to allow multiple *different* RREQ messages to be
> stored in that table, in case of receiving multiple RREQ messages from
> different sending MAC addresses of a device using MIAs.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


From nobody Sat Mar  5 01:44:17 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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Hi Charlie,

I think Henning is right.  The "outgoing local interface" is much easier to=
 use as an identifier than MAC address, and removes any dependency on a spe=
cific layer-2 address format.  As you said in your note: "multi-interface a=
ddresses", i.e. the identifying tuple is { IP_address, Interface_Id }.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
Sent: 05 March 2016 06:53
To: Charlie Perkins
Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP a=
ddresses)

Hi Charlie,

why do you need the MAC address? MAC addresses are always a pain to use bec=
ause the normal network APIs don't deliver them to you unless you use a RAW=
 socket, which spams your routing agent with all IP traffic.

Shouldn't the combination of "outgoing local interface" and "remote IP addr=
ess" be enough to identify and reach the neighbor?

Henning Rogge

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.=
net> wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> In order to enable routing over multi-interface addresses (call them=20
> MIAs) in the presence of uni-directional links, a node receiving a=20
> multicast packet has to be able to identify the sending interface of the =
transmitter.
> For this purpose, it is natural to simply use the MAC address.
>
> With this formulation, we then require that the node receiving a RREQ=20
> packet has to be able to identify the MAC address of the sender.  This se=
ems to
> work well, and enables MIAs.   Then, if that node receives a RREP, it has=
 to
> send to the MAC address from which the RREQ came.  The second part is=20
> natural because already routers already require MAC address=20
> information so that they can send packets.
>
> So I propose that we store the MAC address along with the information=20
> in the Multicast Table.  We need to allow multiple *different* RREQ=20
> messages to be stored in that table, in case of receiving multiple=20
> RREQ messages from different sending MAC addresses of a device using MIAs=
.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:59:50 +0100
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To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
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--047d7bdc07e22bc071052d4bf9e6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Charlie,

I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards to
RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a
more integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.

The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well used
approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and
the question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen
hints of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to
me.

I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of
public keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for
the SAODV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the
general idea there is good.

Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rely
on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However,
in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that
of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
seems to address integrity more than authentication.

In summary, what I personally would like to see is a stronger integration
of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specification, that
also addresses authentication and key management considerations. As it is,
it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security considerations
and build an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and have different
implementations inter-operable.

Thanks,
Anders





On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <
charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> Hello folks,
>
> In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2,
> I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and
> destination of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source
> and destination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee
> of a useful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only
> the endpoints.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the
> existing hop-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.
>
> It can use more work:
> - Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is the
> simplest way to make the conversion?
> - Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be pretty
> simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.
>
> I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to
> understand.
>
> Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may well
> belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolutions
> for the many recent comments.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--047d7bdc07e22bc071052d4bf9e6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi =
Charlie,<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small=
">I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards =
to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a =
more integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">The use of HMACs for mes=
sage authentication is a well known and well used approach. However, the us=
e of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and the question is how this k=
ey distribution should take place. I have seen hints of the usage of a sing=
le shared key, but this seems a little naive to me.<br><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I would instead argue for a si=
gnature based approach, i.e. the use of public keys and certificates. This =
is the approach that was proposed for the SAODV draft, and although that dr=
aft is clearly outdated, I think the general idea there is good.<br><br>Reg=
arding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rely on R=
FC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However, in th=
e AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that of a=
uthentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 seems t=
o address integrity more than authentication.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">In summary, what I personally would =
like to see is a stronger integration of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the=
 AODVv2 protocol specification, that also addresses authentication and key =
management considerations. As it is, it would be very hard to read the AODV=
v2 and its security considerations and build an implementation that incorpo=
rates RFC 7182, and have different implementations inter-operable. <br><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Anders<br></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charl=
ie Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlin=
k.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2, =
I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destinat=
ion of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and des=
tination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a use=
ful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the end=
points.=C2=A0 Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the exis=
ting hop-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.<br>
<br>
It can use more work:<br>
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?=C2=A0 If so, what is th=
e simplest way to make the conversion?<br>
- Should other message types be covered as well?=C2=A0 This would be pretty=
 simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.<br>
<br>
I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to under=
stand.<br>
<br>
Comments are solicited and welcome.=C2=A0 The content of the document may w=
ell belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resoluti=
ons for the many recent comments.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7bdc07e22bc071052d4bf9e6--


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:36:42 +0000
To: Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/4Vd8Iq7OHMKLV6H8vulJHGqf8AA>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
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Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undesirable. That puts=
 a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network, some of which a=
re intended to be lightweight.

Where are the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply download t=
hem, until the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have any way to d=
o that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability issues if you=
 have to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the network. I thin=
k it's actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.

It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cases, for example dr=
aft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a scalabl=
e one, you only need your own information, so preloading for example may be p=
ractical.)

Of course I'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one and o=
nly solution, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key manag=
ement in (and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be done)=
 add many more months to your time to finish.

This also doesn't address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop arch=
itecture. I have some comments to make on that - comments that recognise the=
re's a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I want to formula=
te them more clearly.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Hi Charlie,
>=20
> I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards t=
o RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a mo=
re integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.
> =20
> The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well used a=
pproach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and the=
 question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen hints o=
f the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to me.
>=20
> I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of publ=
ic keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the SAO=
DV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general i=
dea there is good.
>=20
> Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rely o=
n RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However, in t=
he AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that of a=
uthentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 seems to=
 address integrity more than authentication.
>=20
> In summary, what I personally would like to see is a stronger integration o=
f RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specification, that als=
o addresses authentication and key management considerations. As it is, it w=
ould be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security considerations and bui=
ld an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and have different implemen=
tations inter-operable.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Anders
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthli=
nk.net> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2=
, I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destina=
tion of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and des=
tination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a usef=
ul route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the endpo=
ints.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the existing hop=
-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.
>>=20
>> It can use more work:
>> - Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is the s=
implest way to make the conversion?
>> - Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be pretty si=
mple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.
>>=20
>> I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to und=
erstand.
>>=20
>> Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may well=
 belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolutions f=
or the many recent comments.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Requiring a signature based approach i=
s I think quite undesirable. That puts a serious key management load on what=
 is an ad hoc network, some of which are intended to be lightweight.</div><d=
iv id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Where a=
re the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply download them, u=
ntil the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have any way to do tha=
t. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability issues if you have=
 to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the network. I think it'=
s actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.</div><div id=3D"Apple=
MailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">It also precludes wh=
at may be better solutions in many cases, for example draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (=
How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a scalable one, you only need y=
our own information, so preloading for example may be practical.)</div><div i=
d=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Of course I=
'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one and only soluti=
on, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key management in (=
and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be done) add many m=
ore months to your time to finish.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br><=
/div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">This also doesn't address the key issue o=
f the end to end or hop by hop architecture. I have some comments to make on=
 that - comments that recognise there's a real issue that there is no ideal s=
olution to - but I want to formulate them more clearly.</div><div id=3D"Appl=
eMailSignature"><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"=
mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></d=
iv></div><div><br>On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:lanilsson@gmail.com">lanilsson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br><=
/div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" conten=
t=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi Charlie,<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-size:small">I understand you are mainly addressing E2E p=
rotection here, with regards to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinio=
n that AODVv2 should have a more integrated security model, rather than ad h=
oc.<br>&nbsp;<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small=
">The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well used a=
pproach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and the=
 question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen hints o=
f the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to me.<br>=
<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">I would ins=
tead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of public keys and c=
ertificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the SAODV draft, and=
 although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general idea there is g=
ood.<br><br>Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You alr=
eady rely on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. H=
owever, in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and le=
ss that of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec=
-00 seems to address integrity more than authentication.<br><br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">In summary, what I personal=
ly would like to see is a stronger integration of RFC 7182 and its concepts i=
nto the AODVv2 protocol specification, that also addresses authentication an=
d key management considerations. As it is, it would be very hard to read the=
 AODVv2 and its security considerations and build an implementation that inc=
orporates RFC 7182, and have different implementations inter-operable. <br><=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Anders<br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_ext=
ra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie P=
erkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net=
" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2, I=
 have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destinatio=
n of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and destin=
ation of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a useful r=
oute, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the endpoints=
.&nbsp; Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the existing ho=
p-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.<br>
<br>
It can use more work:<br>
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?&nbsp; If so, what is the=
 simplest way to make the conversion?<br>
- Should other message types be covered as well?&nbsp; This would be pretty s=
imple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.<br>
<br>
I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to unders=
tand.<br>
<br>
Comments are solicited and welcome.&nbsp; The content of the document may we=
ll belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolution=
s for the many recent comments.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
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From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 05:38:07 -0800
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Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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Hello Rick,

Using other interface identifiers, you'll need to find a way to restrict 
the transmission of messages to multicast addresses so that each 
outgoing interface is tagged with whatever other stuff you want.

MAC addresses are easier to use with multicast because layer 2 does it 
for you.

In my opinion, if RFC 5444 prevents detection of incoming MAC addresses 
for use in AODVv2 data structures, there is no realistic way to support 
MIAs.  Yes, it could be done, but it would be very expensive in 
signaling traffic and probably require major revisions that I cannot 
clearly predict right now.

Or, if you have a solution and text, please contribute.  I don't think 
it has been done before for wireless routers anyway.

Regards,
Charlie P.



On 3/5/2016 1:43 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> Hi Charlie,
>
> I think Henning is right.  The "outgoing local interface" is much easier to use as an identifier than MAC address, and removes any dependency on a specific layer-2 address format.  As you said in your note: "multi-interface addresses", i.e. the identifying tuple is { IP_address, Interface_Id }.
>
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
> Sent: 05 March 2016 06:53
> To: Charlie Perkins
> Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> why do you need the MAC address? MAC addresses are always a pain to use because the normal network APIs don't deliver them to you unless you use a RAW socket, which spams your routing agent with all IP traffic.
>
> Shouldn't the combination of "outgoing local interface" and "remote IP address" be enough to identify and reach the neighbor?
>
> Henning Rogge
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> In order to enable routing over multi-interface addresses (call them
>> MIAs) in the presence of uni-directional links, a node receiving a
>> multicast packet has to be able to identify the sending interface of the transmitter.
>> For this purpose, it is natural to simply use the MAC address.
>>
>> With this formulation, we then require that the node receiving a RREQ
>> packet has to be able to identify the MAC address of the sender.  This seems to
>> work well, and enables MIAs.   Then, if that node receives a RREP, it has to
>> send to the MAC address from which the RREQ came.  The second part is
>> natural because already routers already require MAC address
>> information so that they can send packets.
>>
>> So I propose that we store the MAC address along with the information
>> in the Multicast Table.  We need to allow multiple *different* RREQ
>> messages to be stored in that table, in case of receiving multiple
>> RREQ messages from different sending MAC addresses of a device using MIAs.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>


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Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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> On Mar 5, 2016, at 14:38, Charlie Perkins =
<charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Rick,

<SNIP>

> In my opinion, if RFC 5444 prevents detection of incoming MAC =
addresses for use in AODVv2 data structures, there is no realistic way =
to support MIAs.

That has nothing to do with RFC5444 !=20

You did notice that Henning=E2=80=99s argument against using L2 =
addresses =
(https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/5BFkn1nYpYxbXUSP8CE6AozFlLE) =
didn=E2=80=99t mention RFC5444, right?


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 14:04:28 +0000
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/HI1AS1GnYnyuq7OXqo9CWBvCfAQ>
Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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RFC5444 is irrelevant to the point here.

We need an interface identifier. As a matter of practical engineering, you c=
ould use MAC address or anything else you have. We just don't need the choic=
e hard specified. It's exactly what NHDP does.

But NHDP also ensures that identifier is local, router A doesn't want or nee=
d to know about router B's interface identifiers. I'd be very set against th=
at, but with the same small restriction as NHDP, no need.

There is also then no interoperability issue, even if I use MAC address, Hen=
ning uses sequence numbers from zero, and whoever else uses a memory address=
, as our local identifiers.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 5 Mar 2016, at 13:38, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hello Rick,
>=20
> Using other interface identifiers, you'll need to find a way to restrict t=
he transmission of messages to multicast addresses so that each outgoing int=
erface is tagged with whatever other stuff you want.
>=20
> MAC addresses are easier to use with multicast because layer 2 does it for=
 you.
>=20
> In my opinion, if RFC 5444 prevents detection of incoming MAC addresses fo=
r use in AODVv2 data structures, there is no realistic way to support MIAs. =
 Yes, it could be done, but it would be very expensive in signaling traffic a=
nd probably require major revisions that I cannot clearly predict right now.=

>=20
> Or, if you have a solution and text, please contribute.  I don't think it h=
as been done before for wireless routers anyway.
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 3/5/2016 1:43 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>> Hi Charlie,
>>=20
>> I think Henning is right.  The "outgoing local interface" is much easier t=
o use as an identifier than MAC address, and removes any dependency on a spe=
cific layer-2 address format.  As you said in your note: "multi-interface ad=
dresses", i.e. the identifying tuple is { IP_address, Interface_Id }.
>>=20
>> Rick
>>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Henning Rogge
>> Sent: 05 March 2016 06:53
>> To: Charlie Perkins
>> Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP=
 addresses)
>>=20
>> Hi Charlie,
>>=20
>> why do you need the MAC address? MAC addresses are always a pain to use b=
ecause the normal network APIs don't deliver them to you unless you use a RA=
W socket, which spams your routing agent with all IP traffic.
>>=20
>> Shouldn't the combination of "outgoing local interface" and "remote IP ad=
dress" be enough to identify and reach the neighbor?
>>=20
>> Henning Rogge
>>=20
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 5:39 AM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthli=
nk.net> wrote:
>>> Hello folks,
>>>=20
>>> In order to enable routing over multi-interface addresses (call them
>>> MIAs) in the presence of uni-directional links, a node receiving a
>>> multicast packet has to be able to identify the sending interface of the=
 transmitter.
>>> For this purpose, it is natural to simply use the MAC address.
>>>=20
>>> With this formulation, we then require that the node receiving a RREQ
>>> packet has to be able to identify the MAC address of the sender.  This s=
eems to
>>> work well, and enables MIAs.   Then, if that node receives a RREP, it ha=
s to
>>> send to the MAC address from which the RREQ came.  The second part is
>>> natural because already routers already require MAC address
>>> information so that they can send packets.
>>>=20
>>> So I propose that we store the MAC address along with the information
>>> in the Multicast Table.  We need to allow multiple *different* RREQ
>>> messages to be stored in that table, in case of receiving multiple
>>> RREQ messages from different sending MAC addresses of a device using MIA=
s.
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Charlie P.
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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--001a113fd448d9f8e8052d5643dd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Christopher,

My point wasn't that a signature based approach should be the only
solution, but that I think that signatures are preferable over HMAC based
E2E authentication approaches. My point was also that I would like to see a
tighter integration of the methods in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft
describing the protocol operation rather than just as security
considerations. Maybe this is deemed not necessary, but I find that when
using the current draft in combination with RFC 7182, it is hard to make an
implementation that would be inter-operable. From my reading of RFC 7182
signatures should be supported, but is unclear how. I also see
authentication as desirable which was also indicated by Charlie.

Even so, I regard a signature based approach as highly desirable,
draft-ietf-manet-ibs is one example, but I don't see the big issue with
certificates. Each node would need a certificate before joining the
network. This is similar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. The node
would also need to have the certificate for the destination node in order
to setup the route. How would have the node have this certificate? How
would the node know the IP address of the destination? If a node knows the
IP address of a destination and would like to exchange encrypted data, it
would also have the certificate. How about authenticating routing messages?
Certificates of neighboring nodes can easily be exchanged by a local
protocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type network running with this approach
and it works well. It also enables TLS/DTLS when desirable.
Another approach as taken by SAODV was to include public keys, signatures
and hashes into routing messages.

And to quote you, I am saying not this is the one and only solution, but
one that I think shouldn't be excluded.

Thanks,
Anders




On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undesirable. That
> puts a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network, some of
> which are intended to be lightweight.
>
> Where are the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply
> download them, until the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have
> any way to do that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability
> issues if you have to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the
> network. I think it's actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.
>
> It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cases, for example
> draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a
> scalable one, you only need your own information, so preloading for example
> may be practical.)
>
> Of course I'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one
> and only solution, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key
> management in (and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be
> done) add many more months to your time to finish.
>
> This also doesn't address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop
> architecture. I have some comments to make on that - comments that
> recognise there's a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I
> want to formulate them more clearly.
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
> On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Charlie,
>
> I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards
> to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a
> more integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.
>
> The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well used
> approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and
> the question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen
> hints of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to
> me.
>
> I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of
> public keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for
> the SAODV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the
> general idea there is good.
>
> Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rely
> on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However,
> in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that
> of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
> seems to address integrity more than authentication.
>
> In summary, what I personally would like to see is a stronger integration
> of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specification, that
> also addresses authentication and key management considerations. As it is,
> it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security considerations
> and build an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and have different
> implementations inter-operable.
>
> Thanks,
> Anders
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <
> charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for
>> AODVv2, I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and
>> destination of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source
>> and destination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee
>> of a useful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only
>> the endpoints.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the
>> existing hop-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.
>>
>> It can use more work:
>> - Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is the
>> simplest way to make the conversion?
>> - Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be pretty
>> simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.
>>
>> I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to
>> understand.
>>
>> Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may well
>> belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolutions
>> for the many recent comments.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--001a113fd448d9f8e8052d5643dd
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi =
Christopher,<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:s=
mall">My point wasn&#39;t that a signature based approach should be the onl=
y solution, but that I think that signatures are preferable over HMAC based=
 E2E authentication approaches. My point was also that I would like to see =
a tighter integration of the methods in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft desc=
ribing the protocol operation rather than just as security considerations. =
Maybe this is deemed not necessary, but I find that when using the current =
draft in combination with RFC 7182, it is hard to make an implementation th=
at would be inter-operable. From my reading of RFC 7182 signatures should b=
e supported, but is unclear how. I also see authentication as desirable whi=
ch was also indicated by Charlie.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default"=
 style=3D"font-size:small">Even so, I regard a signature based approach as =
highly desirable, draft-ietf-manet-ibs is one example, but I don&#39;t see =
the big issue with certificates. Each node would need a certificate before =
joining the network. This is similar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. T=
he node would also need to have the certificate for the destination node in=
 order to setup the route. How would have the node have this certificate? H=
ow would the node know the IP address of the destination? If a node knows t=
he IP address of a destination and would like to exchange encrypted data, i=
t would also have the certificate. How about authenticating routing message=
s? Certificates of neighboring nodes can easily be exchanged by a local pro=
tocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type network running with this approach and =
it works well. It also enables TLS/DTLS when desirable. <br>Another approac=
h as taken by SAODV was to include public keys, signatures and hashes into =
routing messages. =C2=A0 </div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-s=
ize:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"=
>And to quote you, I am saying not this is the one and only solution, but o=
ne that I think shouldn&#39;t be excluded.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-size:small">Anders<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><=
br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher D=
earlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><di=
v>Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undesirable. That p=
uts a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network, some of whi=
ch are intended to be lightweight.</div><div><br></div><div>Where are the c=
ertificates coming from? Note that you can&#39;t simply download them, unti=
l the routing protocol has done its job, you don&#39;t have any way to do t=
hat. Pre-loaded? But that&#39;s getting really into scalability issues if y=
ou have to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the network. I t=
hink it&#39;s actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cas=
es, for example draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an i=
ssue, but a scalable one, you only need your own information, so preloading=
 for example may be practical.)</div><div><br></div><div>Of course I&#39;m =
not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one and only solution=
, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key management in (a=
nd it&#39;s hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be done) add m=
any more months to your time to finish.</div><div><br></div><div>This also =
doesn&#39;t address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop architect=
ure. I have some comments to make on that - comments that recognise there&#=
39;s a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I want to formul=
ate them more clearly.</div><div><br>-- =C2=A0<span class=3D""><font color=
=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christop=
her.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a=
></div></font></span></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On 5 Mar 2016, a=
t 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lanilsson@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">lanilsson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small">Hi Ch=
arlie,<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">I understand you are mai=
nly addressing E2E protection here, with regards to RREQ and RREP, but I am=
 of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a more integrated security m=
odel, rather than ad hoc.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"=
>The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well used =
approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and t=
he question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen hin=
ts of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to me=
.<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">I would instead argue for a s=
ignature based approach, i.e. the use of public keys and certificates. This=
 is the approach that was proposed for the SAODV draft, and although that d=
raft is clearly outdated, I think the general idea there is good.<br><br>Re=
garding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rely on =
RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However, in t=
he AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that of =
authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 seems =
to address integrity more than authentication.<br><br></div><div style=3D"f=
ont-size:small">In summary, what I personally would like to see is a strong=
er integration of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specif=
ication, that also addresses authentication and key management consideratio=
ns. As it is, it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security con=
siderations and build an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and hav=
e different implementations inter-operable. <br><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">Anders<br></d=
iv><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:sma=
ll"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM=
, Charlie Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@e=
arthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2, =
I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destinat=
ion of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and des=
tination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a use=
ful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the end=
points.=C2=A0 Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the exis=
ting hop-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.<br>
<br>
It can use more work:<br>
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?=C2=A0 If so, what is th=
e simplest way to make the conversion?<br>
- Should other message types be covered as well?=C2=A0 This would be pretty=
 simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.<br>
<br>
I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to under=
stand.<br>
<br>
Comments are solicited and welcome.=C2=A0 The content of the document may w=
ell belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resoluti=
ons for the many recent comments.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:18:20 +0000
To: Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/vWJlo8xabhE3eudJMVQWoZzKLCk>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
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Note that for OLSRv2 there is 7183 as well as 7182. AODVv2 needs its 7183 eq=
uivalent, though of course it doesn't have to be a separate draft.

In terms of what you say, I completely disagree that if you have an IP addre=
ss it's just as easy to have a certificate.

Transferring certificates in TC or RREQ messages is a serious overhead. Just=
 in HELLO messages is bad enough, but inadequate for end to end authenticati=
on. Alternatively they need pre-distribution.

Addresses on the other hand have neither of those disadvantages. They are sm=
all. They are being included in messages anyway. But also, you learn IP addr=
esses during routing (including neighbour discovery). I can and have impleme=
nted OLSRv2 with IBS without any prior knowledge of any other participant in=
 the network.

Also note in particular that as far as I'm concerned other nodes aren't just=
 destinations, many are relays. I might need prior knowledge of actual traff=
ic destinations if I'm the traffic source. But not of relays. And if I'm a r=
elay, not even that. (That's especially true for AODVv2 that just gets an IP=
 packet to deliver out of the blue.)

More, even there, the final destination in routing protocol terms is a route=
r, not a host. For encrypted comms it's a host I want to communicate with, h=
ave certificate of etc. And actually I can do that without a certificate too=
 by using identity based mechanisms. Which is also something we're able to d=
o.

Yes, we're both saying no single solution. But I think you're downplaying th=
e complications of what you're suggesting. Mostly that doesn't matter, but i=
t is an additional reason I don't think this (in the AODVv2 draft, or its 71=
83 equivalent) is the right place.

The right place is a draft how to use the approach you favour within a 7182 f=
ramework. Which then AODVv2 (or even OLSRv2) could then adopt as required. S=
imilar approach to the IBS draft. People can then take it or leave it. (I'm n=
ot claiming IBS is perfect either, it's not very low processing power friend=
ly for one. I'd also object if that were pushed as the primary approach.)

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 6 Mar 2016, at 00:16, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Hi Christopher,
>=20
> My point wasn't that a signature based approach should be the only solutio=
n, but that I think that signatures are preferable over HMAC based E2E authe=
ntication approaches. My point was also that I would like to see a tighter i=
ntegration of the methods in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft describing the p=
rotocol operation rather than just as security considerations. Maybe this is=
 deemed not necessary, but I find that when using the current draft in combi=
nation with RFC 7182, it is hard to make an implementation that would be int=
er-operable. =46rom my reading of RFC 7182 signatures should be supported, b=
ut is unclear how. I also see authentication as desirable which was also ind=
icated by Charlie.
>=20
> Even so, I regard a signature based approach as highly desirable, draft-ie=
tf-manet-ibs is one example, but I don't see the big issue with certificates=
. Each node would need a certificate before joining the network. This is sim=
ilar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. The node would also need to have t=
he certificate for the destination node in order to setup the route. How wou=
ld have the node have this certificate? How would the node know the IP addre=
ss of the destination? If a node knows the IP address of a destination and w=
ould like to exchange encrypted data, it would also have the certificate. Ho=
w about authenticating routing messages? Certificates of neighboring nodes c=
an easily be exchanged by a local protocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type net=
work running with this approach and it works well. It also enables TLS/DTLS w=
hen desirable.=20
> Another approach as taken by SAODV was to include public keys, signatures a=
nd hashes into routing messages. =20
>=20
> And to quote you, I am saying not this is the one and only solution, but o=
ne that I think shouldn't be excluded.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Anders
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undesirable. That p=
uts a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network, some of whic=
h are intended to be lightweight.
>>=20
>> Where are the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply downlo=
ad them, until the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have any way=
 to do that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability issues i=
f you have to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the network. I=
 think it's actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.
>>=20
>> It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cases, for example=
 draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a scal=
able one, you only need your own information, so preloading for example may b=
e practical.)
>>=20
>> Of course I'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one a=
nd only solution, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key m=
anagement in (and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be d=
one) add many more months to your time to finish.
>>=20
>> This also doesn't address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop a=
rchitecture. I have some comments to make on that - comments that recognise t=
here's a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I want to formu=
late them more clearly.
>>=20
>> -- =20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>=20
>>> On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Charlie,
>>>=20
>>> I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards=
 to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a m=
ore integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.
>>> =20
>>> The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well use=
d approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and t=
he question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen hint=
s of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to me.
>>>=20
>>> I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of pu=
blic keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the S=
AODV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general=
 idea there is good.
>>>=20
>>> Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rel=
y on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However, i=
n the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that o=
f authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 seems=
 to address integrity more than authentication.
>>>=20
>>> In summary, what I personally would like to see is a stronger integratio=
n of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specification, that a=
lso addresses authentication and key management considerations. As it is, it=
 would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security considerations and b=
uild an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and have different implem=
entations inter-operable.=20
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anders
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earth=
link.net> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>=20
>>>> In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODV=
v2, I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and desti=
nation of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and d=
estination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a us=
eful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the end=
points.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the existing h=
op-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.
>>>>=20
>>>> It can use more work:
>>>> - Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is the=
 simplest way to make the conversion?
>>>> - Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be pretty s=
imple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.
>>>>=20
>>>> I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to u=
nderstand.
>>>>=20
>>>> Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may we=
ll belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolution=
s for the many recent comments.
>>>>=20
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Charlie P.
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20

--Apple-Mail-005A4B64-22BB-4612-8687-D8571824A73E
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Note that for OLSRv2 there is 7183 as w=
ell as 7182. AODVv2 needs its 7183 equivalent, though of course it doesn't h=
ave to be a separate draft.</div><div><br></div><div>In terms of what you sa=
y, I completely disagree that if you have an IP address it's just as easy to=
 have a certificate.</div><div><br></div><div>Transferring certificates in T=
C or RREQ messages is a serious overhead. Just in HELLO messages is bad enou=
gh, but inadequate for end to end authentication. Alternatively they need pr=
e-distribution.</div><div><br></div><div>Addresses on the other hand have ne=
ither of those disadvantages. They are small. They are being included in mes=
sages anyway. But also, you learn IP addresses during routing (including nei=
ghbour discovery). I can and have implemented OLSRv2 with IBS without any pr=
ior knowledge of any other participant in the network.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Also note in particular that as far as I'm concerned other nodes aren't j=
ust destinations, many are relays. I might need prior knowledge of actual tr=
affic destinations if I'm the traffic source. But not of relays. And if I'm a=
 relay, not even that. (That's especially true for AODVv2 that just gets an I=
P packet to deliver out of the blue.)</div><div><br></div><div>More, even th=
ere, the final destination in routing protocol terms is a router, not a host=
. For encrypted comms it's a host I want to communicate with, have certifica=
te of etc. And actually I can do that without a certificate too by using ide=
ntity based mechanisms. Which is also something we're able to do.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Yes, we're both saying no single solution. But I think you're=
 downplaying the complications of what you're suggesting. Mostly that doesn'=
t matter, but it is an additional reason I don't think this (in the AODVv2 d=
raft, or its 7183 equivalent) is the right place.</div><div><br></div><div>T=
he right place is a draft how to use the approach you favour within a 7182 f=
ramework. Which then AODVv2 (or even OLSRv2) could then adopt as required. S=
imilar approach to the IBS draft. People can then take it or leave it. (I'm n=
ot claiming IBS is perfect either, it's not very low processing power friend=
ly for one. I'd also object if that were pushed as the primary approach.)</d=
iv><div><br><div>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mai=
lto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPho=
ne)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne=
.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div></div><div><br>On 6 Mar 2016, at 00:16, A=
nders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lanilsson@gmail.com">lanilsson@g=
mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta ht=
tp-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi Christopher,=
<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">My poin=
t wasn't that a signature based approach should be the only solution, but th=
at I think that signatures are preferable over HMAC based E2E authentication=
 approaches. My point was also that I would like to see a tighter integratio=
n of the methods in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft describing the protocol o=
peration rather than just as security considerations. Maybe this is deemed n=
ot necessary, but I find that when using the current draft in combination wi=
th RFC 7182, it is hard to make an implementation that would be inter-operab=
le. =46rom my reading of RFC 7182 signatures should be supported, but is unc=
lear how. I also see authentication as desirable which was also indicated by=
 Charlie.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small=
">Even so, I regard a signature based approach as highly desirable, draft-ie=
tf-manet-ibs is one example, but I don't see the big issue with certificates=
. Each node would need a certificate before joining the network. This is sim=
ilar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. The node would also need to have t=
he certificate for the destination node in order to setup the route. How wou=
ld have the node have this certificate? How would the node know the IP addre=
ss of the destination? If a node knows the IP address of a destination and w=
ould like to exchange encrypted data, it would also have the certificate. Ho=
w about authenticating routing messages? Certificates of neighboring nodes c=
an easily be exchanged by a local protocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type net=
work running with this approach and it works well. It also enables TLS/DTLS w=
hen desirable. <br>Another approach as taken by SAODV was to include public k=
eys, signatures and hashes into routing messages. &nbsp; </div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-size:small">And to quote you, I am saying not this is the=
 one and only solution, but one that I think shouldn't be excluded.<br><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Anders<br></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:=
36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christop=
her.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><div>Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undes=
irable. That puts a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network=
, some of which are intended to be lightweight.</div><div><br></div><div>Whe=
re are the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply download the=
m, until the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have any way to do=
 that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability issues if you h=
ave to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the network. I think i=
t's actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.</div><div><br></div=
><div>It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cases, for exam=
ple draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a s=
calable one, you only need your own information, so preloading for example m=
ay be practical.)</div><div><br></div><div>Of course I'm not saying this mig=
ht not be a solution, just not the one and only solution, and not to exclude=
 all others. If you do have to put key management in (and it's hard to talk t=
he SEC ADs out of that, but it can be done) add many more months to your tim=
e to finish.</div><div><br></div><div>This also doesn't address the key issu=
e of the end to end or hop by hop architecture. I have some comments to make=
 on that - comments that recognise there's a real issue that there is no ide=
al solution to - but I want to formulate them more clearly.</div><div><br>--=
 &nbsp;<span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher Dearlove</d=
iv><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></font></span></div><div><div class=3D=
"h5"><div><br>On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:lanilsson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lanilsson@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div styl=
e=3D"font-size:small">Hi Charlie,<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small=
">I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards t=
o RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a mo=
re integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.<br>&nbsp;<br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:small">The use of HMACs for message authentication is a wel=
l known and well used approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of s=
ymmetric keys, and the question is how this key distribution should take pla=
ce. I have seen hints of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a l=
ittle naive to me.<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">I would inste=
ad argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of public keys and cer=
tificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the SAODV draft, and a=
lthough that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general idea there is go=
od.<br><br>Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You alre=
ady rely on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. Ho=
wever, in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and les=
s that of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-=
00 seems to address integrity more than authentication.<br><br></div><div st=
yle=3D"font-size:small">In summary, what I personally would like to see is a=
 stronger integration of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol s=
pecification, that also addresses authentication and key management consider=
ations. As it is, it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security c=
onsiderations and build an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and ha=
ve different implementations inter-operable. <br><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">Anders<br></di=
v><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small=
"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></div><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Ch=
arlie Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthl=
ink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;</span> wrot=
e:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2, I=
 have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destinatio=
n of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and destin=
ation of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a useful r=
oute, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the endpoints=
.&nbsp; Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the existing ho=
p-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.<br>
<br>
It can use more work:<br>
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?&nbsp; If so, what is the=
 simplest way to make the conversion?<br>
- Should other message types be covered as well?&nbsp; This would be pretty s=
imple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.<br>
<br>
I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to unders=
tand.<br>
<br>
Comments are solicited and welcome.&nbsp; The content of the document may we=
ll belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolution=
s for the many recent comments.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a></s=
pan><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div>=
</blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 17:54:44 +0000
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Looks good. I'd add a bit about MANET but looks better. OLSRv2 apparently
didn't mention wireless either so I'll not press. My point there was not
that it's restricted to those networks but designed for them.  MANET will
suffice.

Justin.

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016, 11:31 PM Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Hello Justin,
>
> I have devised some text for an expanded introduction.  Please take a look:
>
> >    The Ad hoc On-Demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) protocol enables
> >    dynamic, self-starting, multihop routing between participating mobile
> >    nodes wishing to establish and maintain an ad hoc network. The
> >    basic operations of the AODVv2 protocol are route discovery and
> >    route maintenance.  AODVv2 does not require nodes to maintain routes
> >    to destinations that are not in active communication.  AODVv2 allows
> >    mobile nodes to respond to link breakages and changes in network
> >    topology in a timely manner.  The operation of AODVv2 is loop-free,
> >    and by avoiding the Bellman-Ford "counting to infinity" problem
> >    offers quick convergence when the ad hoc network topology changes
> >    (typically, when a node moves in the network).  When links break,
> >    AODVv2 causes the affected set of nodes to be notified so that they
> >    are able to invalidate the routes using the lost link.
> >
> >    One distinguishing feature of AODVv2 is its use of a destination
> >    sequence number for each route entry.  The destination sequence
> >    number is created by the destination to be included along with any
> >    route information it sends to requesting nodes.  Using destination
> >    sequence numbers ensures loop freedom and is simple to program.
> >    Given the choice between two routes to a destination, a requesting
> >    node is required to select the one with the greatest sequence number.
> >
> >    Compared to AODV [RFC3561], AODVv2 makes some features optional,
> >    notably intermediate route replies, expanding ring search, and
> >    precursor lists.  Hello messages and local repair have been removed.
> >    AODVv2 provides a mechanism for the use of multiple metric types.
> >    Message formats have been updated and made compliant with [RFC5444].
> >    AODVv2 control messages are defined as sets of data, which are mapped
> >    to message elements using the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format
> >    defined in [RFC5444] and sent using the parameters in [RFC5498].
> >    Verification of link bidirectionality has been substantially
> > improved, and
> >    additional refinements made for route timeouts and state management.
>
>
> On 3/1/2016 8:18 PM, Justin Dean wrote:
> >     The Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing
> >     protocol (formerly named DYMO) enables on-demand, multihop unicast
> >     routing among AODVv2 routers in mobile ad hoc networks (MANETs)
> >     [RFC2501].
> > (We jumped right in here would prefer some intro to AODV and how AODVv2
> is derived from that work. JWD)
> >
>
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">Looks good. I&#39;d add a bit about MANET but looks better. =
OLSRv2 apparently didn&#39;t mention wireless either so I&#39;ll not press.=
 My point there was not that it&#39;s restricted to those networks but desi=
gned for them.=C2=A0 MANET will suffice.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Justin.</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Mar 4, 2016, 11:31 =
PM Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">cha=
rles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">Hello Justin,<br>
<br>
I have devised some text for an expanded introduction.=C2=A0 Please take a =
look:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The Ad hoc On-Demand Distance Vector (AODVv2) protocol en=
ables<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 dynamic, self-starting, multihop routing between particip=
ating mobile<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 nodes wishing to establish and maintain an ad hoc network=
. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 basic operations of the AODVv2 protocol are route discove=
ry and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 route maintenance.=C2=A0 AODVv2 does not require nodes to=
 maintain routes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to destinations that are not in active communication.=C2=
=A0 AODVv2 allows<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mobile nodes to respond to link breakages and changes in =
network<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 topology in a timely manner.=C2=A0 The operation of AODVv=
2 is loop-free,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 and by avoiding the Bellman-Ford &quot;counting to infini=
ty&quot; problem<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 offers quick convergence when the ad hoc network topology=
 changes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (typically, when a node moves in the network).=C2=A0 When=
 links break,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 AODVv2 causes the affected set of nodes to be notified so=
 that they<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 are able to invalidate the routes using the lost link.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One distinguishing feature of AODVv2 is its use of a dest=
ination<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sequence number for each route entry.=C2=A0 The destinati=
on sequence<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 number is created by the destination to be included along=
 with any<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 route information it sends to requesting nodes.=C2=A0 Usi=
ng destination<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 sequence numbers ensures loop freedom and is simple to pr=
ogram.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Given the choice between two routes to a destination, a r=
equesting<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 node is required to select the one with the greatest sequ=
ence number.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Compared to AODV [RFC3561], AODVv2 makes some features op=
tional,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 notably intermediate route replies, expanding ring search=
, and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 precursor lists.=C2=A0 Hello messages and local repair ha=
ve been removed.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 AODVv2 provides a mechanism for the use of multiple metri=
c types.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Message formats have been updated and made compliant with=
 [RFC5444].<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 AODVv2 control messages are defined as sets of data, whic=
h are mapped<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to message elements using the Generalized MANET Packet/Me=
ssage Format<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 defined in [RFC5444] and sent using the parameters in [RF=
C5498].<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Verification of link bidirectionality has been substantia=
lly<br>
&gt; improved, and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 additional refinements made for route timeouts and state =
management.<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/1/2016 8:18 PM, Justin Dean wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AOD=
Vv2) routing<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol (formerly named DYMO) enables on-demand, m=
ultihop unicast<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0routing among AODVv2 routers in mobile ad hoc netwo=
rks (MANETs)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[RFC2501].<br>
&gt; (We jumped right in here would prefer some intro to AODV and how AODVv=
2 is derived from that work. JWD)<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 23:49:29 +0100
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--001a1134f37a5507f9052d692aab
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Hi,

Doing a AODVv2 7183 equivalent sounds like a very good idea, and I would
fully support it and be able to contribute if needed. It would also be able
to house more security implementation details for better inter-operability
that I was looking for. I would like to hear what Charlie's and the other
authors thoughts are. I got the impression this was partly the motive of
draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 which prompted me to start this
discussion.

As a side note, we did initially have an approach very similar to IBS but
moved to certificates based on outside requirements.

Thanks,
Anders



On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> Note that for OLSRv2 there is 7183 as well as 7182. AODVv2 needs its 7183
> equivalent, though of course it doesn't have to be a separate draft.
>
> In terms of what you say, I completely disagree that if you have an IP
> address it's just as easy to have a certificate.
>
> Transferring certificates in TC or RREQ messages is a serious overhead.
> Just in HELLO messages is bad enough, but inadequate for end to end
> authentication. Alternatively they need pre-distribution.
>
> Addresses on the other hand have neither of those disadvantages. They are
> small. They are being included in messages anyway. But also, you learn IP
> addresses during routing (including neighbour discovery). I can and have
> implemented OLSRv2 with IBS without any prior knowledge of any other
> participant in the network.
>
> Also note in particular that as far as I'm concerned other nodes aren't
> just destinations, many are relays. I might need prior knowledge of actual
> traffic destinations if I'm the traffic source. But not of relays. And if
> I'm a relay, not even that. (That's especially true for AODVv2 that just
> gets an IP packet to deliver out of the blue.)
>
> More, even there, the final destination in routing protocol terms is a
> router, not a host. For encrypted comms it's a host I want to communicate
> with, have certificate of etc. And actually I can do that without a
> certificate too by using identity based mechanisms. Which is also something
> we're able to do.
>
> Yes, we're both saying no single solution. But I think you're downplaying
> the complications of what you're suggesting. Mostly that doesn't matter,
> but it is an additional reason I don't think this (in the AODVv2 draft, or
> its 7183 equivalent) is the right place.
>
> The right place is a draft how to use the approach you favour within a
> 7182 framework. Which then AODVv2 (or even OLSRv2) could then adopt as
> required. Similar approach to the IBS draft. People can then take it or
> leave it. (I'm not claiming IBS is perfect either, it's not very low
> processing power friendly for one. I'd also object if that were pushed as
> the primary approach.)
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>
> On 6 Mar 2016, at 00:16, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Christopher,
>
> My point wasn't that a signature based approach should be the only
> solution, but that I think that signatures are preferable over HMAC based
> E2E authentication approaches. My point was also that I would like to see a
> tighter integration of the methods in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft
> describing the protocol operation rather than just as security
> considerations. Maybe this is deemed not necessary, but I find that when
> using the current draft in combination with RFC 7182, it is hard to make an
> implementation that would be inter-operable. From my reading of RFC 7182
> signatures should be supported, but is unclear how. I also see
> authentication as desirable which was also indicated by Charlie.
>
> Even so, I regard a signature based approach as highly desirable,
> draft-ietf-manet-ibs is one example, but I don't see the big issue with
> certificates. Each node would need a certificate before joining the
> network. This is similar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. The node
> would also need to have the certificate for the destination node in order
> to setup the route. How would have the node have this certificate? How
> would the node know the IP address of the destination? If a node knows the
> IP address of a destination and would like to exchange encrypted data, it
> would also have the certificate. How about authenticating routing messages?
> Certificates of neighboring nodes can easily be exchanged by a local
> protocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type network running with this approach
> and it works well. It also enables TLS/DTLS when desirable.
> Another approach as taken by SAODV was to include public keys, signatures
> and hashes into routing messages.
>
> And to quote you, I am saying not this is the one and only solution, but
> one that I think shouldn't be excluded.
>
> Thanks,
> Anders
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undesirable. That
>> puts a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network, some of
>> which are intended to be lightweight.
>>
>> Where are the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply
>> download them, until the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have
>> any way to do that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability
>> issues if you have to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the
>> network. I think it's actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.
>>
>> It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cases, for example
>> draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a
>> scalable one, you only need your own information, so preloading for example
>> may be practical.)
>>
>> Of course I'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one
>> and only solution, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key
>> management in (and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be
>> done) add many more months to your time to finish.
>>
>> This also doesn't address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop
>> architecture. I have some comments to make on that - comments that
>> recognise there's a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I
>> want to formulate them more clearly.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>
>> On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Charlie,
>>
>> I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards
>> to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a
>> more integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.
>>
>> The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well used
>> approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, and
>> the question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen
>> hints of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to
>> me.
>>
>> I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of
>> public keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for
>> the SAODV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the
>> general idea there is good.
>>
>> Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already rely
>> on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However,
>> in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less that
>> of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
>> seems to address integrity more than authentication.
>>
>> In summary, what I personally would like to see is a stronger integration
>> of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specification, that
>> also addresses authentication and key management considerations. As it is,
>> it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security considerations
>> and build an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and have different
>> implementations inter-operable.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Anders
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <
>> charles.perkins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hello folks,
>>>
>>> In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for
>>> AODVv2, I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and
>>> destination of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source
>>> and destination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee
>>> of a useful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only
>>> the endpoints.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the
>>> existing hop-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.
>>>
>>> It can use more work:
>>> - Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is the
>>> simplest way to make the conversion?
>>> - Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be pretty
>>> simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.
>>>
>>> I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to
>>> understand.
>>>
>>> Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may
>>> well belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide
>>> resolutions for the many recent comments.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Charlie P.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>

--001a1134f37a5507f9052d692aab
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi,=
<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Doing =
a AODVv2 7183 equivalent sounds like a very good idea, and I would fully su=
pport it and be able to contribute if needed. It would also be able to hous=
e more security implementation details for better inter-operability that I =
was looking for. I would like to hear what Charlie&#39;s and the other auth=
ors thoughts are. I got the impression this was partly the motive of draft-=
perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 which prompted me to start this discussion.<br=
><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">As a side=
 note, we did initially have an approach very similar to IBS but moved to c=
ertificates based on outside requirements. <br><br></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-size:small">Anders <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Christop=
her Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Note that fo=
r OLSRv2 there is 7183 as well as 7182. AODVv2 needs its 7183 equivalent, t=
hough of course it doesn&#39;t have to be a separate draft.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>In terms of what you say, I completely disagree that if you have =
an IP address it&#39;s just as easy to have a certificate.</div><div><br></=
div><div>Transferring certificates in TC or RREQ messages is a serious over=
head. Just in HELLO messages is bad enough, but inadequate for end to end a=
uthentication. Alternatively they need pre-distribution.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Addresses on the other hand have neither of those disadvantages. The=
y are small. They are being included in messages anyway. But also, you lear=
n IP addresses during routing (including neighbour discovery). I can and ha=
ve implemented OLSRv2 with IBS without any prior knowledge of any other par=
ticipant in the network.</div><div><br></div><div>Also note in particular t=
hat as far as I&#39;m concerned other nodes aren&#39;t just destinations, m=
any are relays. I might need prior knowledge of actual traffic destinations=
 if I&#39;m the traffic source. But not of relays. And if I&#39;m a relay, =
not even that. (That&#39;s especially true for AODVv2 that just gets an IP =
packet to deliver out of the blue.)</div><div><br></div><div>More, even the=
re, the final destination in routing protocol terms is a router, not a host=
. For encrypted comms it&#39;s a host I want to communicate with, have cert=
ificate of etc. And actually I can do that without a certificate too by usi=
ng identity based mechanisms. Which is also something we&#39;re able to do.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, we&#39;re both saying no single solution. Bu=
t I think you&#39;re downplaying the complications of what you&#39;re sugge=
sting. Mostly that doesn&#39;t matter, but it is an additional reason I don=
&#39;t think this (in the AODVv2 draft, or its 7183 equivalent) is the righ=
t place.</div><div><br></div><div>The right place is a draft how to use the=
 approach you favour within a 7182 framework. Which then AODVv2 (or even OL=
SRv2) could then adopt as required. Similar approach to the IBS draft. Peop=
le can then take it or leave it. (I&#39;m not claiming IBS is perfect eithe=
r, it&#39;s not very low processing power friendly for one. I&#39;d also ob=
ject if that were pushed as the primary approach.)</div><div><br><div>-- =
=C2=A0<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher Dearl=
ove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mai=
lto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co=
.uk</a> (home)</div></font></span></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><=
br>On 6 Mar 2016, at 00:16, Anders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:la=
nilsson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lanilsson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>=
<br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gma=
il_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi Christopher,<br><br></div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">My point wasn&#39;t that a s=
ignature based approach should be the only solution, but that I think that =
signatures are preferable over HMAC based E2E authentication approaches. My=
 point was also that I would like to see a tighter integration of the metho=
ds in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft describing the protocol operation rath=
er than just as security considerations. Maybe this is deemed not necessary=
, but I find that when using the current draft in combination with RFC 7182=
, it is hard to make an implementation that would be inter-operable. From m=
y reading of RFC 7182 signatures should be supported, but is unclear how. I=
 also see authentication as desirable which was also indicated by Charlie.<=
br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Even so=
, I regard a signature based approach as highly desirable, draft-ietf-manet=
-ibs is one example, but I don&#39;t see the big issue with certificates. E=
ach node would need a certificate before joining the network. This is simil=
ar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. The node would also need to have th=
e certificate for the destination node in order to setup the route. How wou=
ld have the node have this certificate? How would the node know the IP addr=
ess of the destination? If a node knows the IP address of a destination and=
 would like to exchange encrypted data, it would also have the certificate.=
 How about authenticating routing messages? Certificates of neighboring nod=
es can easily be exchanged by a local protocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet typ=
e network running with this approach and it works well. It also enables TLS=
/DTLS when desirable. <br>Another approach as taken by SAODV was to include=
 public keys, signatures and hashes into routing messages. =C2=A0 </div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">And to quote you, I am saying not=
 this is the one and only solution, but one that I think shouldn&#39;t be e=
xcluded.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small=
">Thanks,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">A=
nders<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><=
br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S=
at, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher=
.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Requiring a signature based appr=
oach is I think quite undesirable. That puts a serious key management load =
on what is an ad hoc network, some of which are intended to be lightweight.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Where are the certificates coming from? Note that=
 you can&#39;t simply download them, until the routing protocol has done it=
s job, you don&#39;t have any way to do that. Pre-loaded? But that&#39;s ge=
tting really into scalability issues if you have to preload certificates fo=
r anyone who might be in the network. I think it&#39;s actually particularl=
y bad for an on-demand protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>It also precludes=
 what may be better solutions in many cases, for example draft-ietf-manet-i=
bs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a scalable one, you only=
 need your own information, so preloading for example may be practical.)</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Of course I&#39;m not saying this might not be a sol=
ution, just not the one and only solution, and not to exclude all others. I=
f you do have to put key management in (and it&#39;s hard to talk the SEC A=
Ds out of that, but it can be done) add many more months to your time to fi=
nish.</div><div><br></div><div>This also doesn&#39;t address the key issue =
of the end to end or hop by hop architecture. I have some comments to make =
on that - comments that recognise there&#39;s a real issue that there is no=
 ideal solution to - but I want to formulate them more clearly.</div><div><=
br>-- =C2=A0<span><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher Dearlove</div><d=
iv><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></font></span></div><div><div><div><br>=
On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lanil=
sson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lanilsson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br=
></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-s=
ize:small">Hi Charlie,<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">I unders=
tand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regards to RREQ an=
d RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a more integ=
rated security model, rather than ad hoc.<br>=C2=A0<br></div><div style=3D"=
font-size:small">The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well know=
n and well used approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symme=
tric keys, and the question is how this key distribution should take place.=
 I have seen hints of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a li=
ttle naive to me.<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">I would inste=
ad argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of public keys and ce=
rtificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the SAODV draft, and=
 although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general idea there is=
 good.<br><br>Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You =
already rely on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draf=
t. However, in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, a=
nd less that of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-=
e2esec-00 seems to address integrity more than authentication.<br><br></div=
><div style=3D"font-size:small">In summary, what I personally would like to=
 see is a stronger integration of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2=
 protocol specification, that also addresses authentication and key managem=
ent considerations. As it is, it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and =
its security considerations and build an implementation that incorporates R=
FC 7182, and have different implementations inter-operable. <br><br></div><=
div style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:smal=
l">Anders<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3,=
 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
charles.perkins@earthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.=
net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1=
ex"><br>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2, =
I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destinat=
ion of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and des=
tination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a use=
ful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the end=
points.=C2=A0 Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the exis=
ting hop-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.<br>
<br>
It can use more work:<br>
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?=C2=A0 If so, what is th=
e simplest way to make the conversion?<br>
- Should other message types be covered as well?=C2=A0 This would be pretty=
 simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.<br>
<br>
I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to under=
stand.<br>
<br>
Comments are solicited and welcome.=C2=A0 The content of the document may w=
ell belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resoluti=
ons for the many recent comments.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
____________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><=
span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>=
</span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br><=
/div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 23:38:55 +0000
To: Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
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Outside requirements are of course the trump card, and the reason one size d=
oesn't fit all.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com



-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> On 6 Mar 2016, at 22:49, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com> wrot=
e:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Doing a AODVv2 7183 equivalent sounds like a very good idea, and I would f=
ully support it and be able to contribute if needed. It would also be able t=
o house more security implementation details for better inter-operability th=
at I was looking for. I would like to hear what Charlie's and the other auth=
ors thoughts are. I got the impression this was partly the motive of draft-p=
erkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 which prompted me to start this discussion.
>=20
> As a side note, we did initially have an approach very similar to IBS but m=
oved to certificates based on outside requirements.=20
>=20
> Thanks,
> Anders=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlo=
ve@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Note that for OLSRv2 there is 7183 as well as 7182. AODVv2 needs its 7183=
 equivalent, though of course it doesn't have to be a separate draft.
>>=20
>> In terms of what you say, I completely disagree that if you have an IP ad=
dress it's just as easy to have a certificate.
>>=20
>> Transferring certificates in TC or RREQ messages is a serious overhead. J=
ust in HELLO messages is bad enough, but inadequate for end to end authentic=
ation. Alternatively they need pre-distribution.
>>=20
>> Addresses on the other hand have neither of those disadvantages. They are=
 small. They are being included in messages anyway. But also, you learn IP a=
ddresses during routing (including neighbour discovery). I can and have impl=
emented OLSRv2 with IBS without any prior knowledge of any other participant=
 in the network.
>>=20
>> Also note in particular that as far as I'm concerned other nodes aren't j=
ust destinations, many are relays. I might need prior knowledge of actual tr=
affic destinations if I'm the traffic source. But not of relays. And if I'm a=
 relay, not even that. (That's especially true for AODVv2 that just gets an I=
P packet to deliver out of the blue.)
>>=20
>> More, even there, the final destination in routing protocol terms is a ro=
uter, not a host. For encrypted comms it's a host I want to communicate with=
, have certificate of etc. And actually I can do that without a certificate t=
oo by using identity based mechanisms. Which is also something we're able to=
 do.
>>=20
>> Yes, we're both saying no single solution. But I think you're downplaying=
 the complications of what you're suggesting. Mostly that doesn't matter, bu=
t it is an additional reason I don't think this (in the AODVv2 draft, or its=
 7183 equivalent) is the right place.
>>=20
>> The right place is a draft how to use the approach you favour within a 71=
82 framework. Which then AODVv2 (or even OLSRv2) could then adopt as require=
d. Similar approach to the IBS draft. People can then take it or leave it. (=
I'm not claiming IBS is perfect either, it's not very low processing power f=
riendly for one. I'd also object if that were pushed as the primary approach=
.)
>>=20
>> -- =20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
>> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
>>=20
>>> On 6 Mar 2016, at 00:16, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com> wr=
ote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Christopher,
>>>=20
>>> My point wasn't that a signature based approach should be the only solut=
ion, but that I think that signatures are preferable over HMAC based E2E aut=
hentication approaches. My point was also that I would like to see a tighter=
 integration of the methods in RFC 7182 into the AODVv2 draft describing the=
 protocol operation rather than just as security considerations. Maybe this i=
s deemed not necessary, but I find that when using the current draft in comb=
ination with RFC 7182, it is hard to make an implementation that would be in=
ter-operable. =46rom my reading of RFC 7182 signatures should be supported, b=
ut is unclear how. I also see authentication as desirable which was also ind=
icated by Charlie.
>>>=20
>>> Even so, I regard a signature based approach as highly desirable, draft-=
ietf-manet-ibs is one example, but I don't see the big issue with certificat=
es. Each node would need a certificate before joining the network. This is s=
imilar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-ibs. The node would also need to have=
 the certificate for the destination node in order to setup the route. How w=
ould have the node have this certificate? How would the node know the IP add=
ress of the destination? If a node knows the IP address of a destination and=
 would like to exchange encrypted data, it would also have the certificate. H=
ow about authenticating routing messages? Certificates of neighboring nodes c=
an easily be exchanged by a local protocol, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type net=
work running with this approach and it works well. It also enables TLS/DTLS w=
hen desirable.=20
>>> Another approach as taken by SAODV was to include public keys, signature=
s and hashes into routing messages. =20
>>>=20
>>> And to quote you, I am saying not this is the one and only solution, but=
 one that I think shouldn't be excluded.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anders
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearl=
ove@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Requiring a signature based approach is I think quite undesirable. That=
 puts a serious key management load on what is an ad hoc network, some of wh=
ich are intended to be lightweight.
>>>>=20
>>>> Where are the certificates coming from? Note that you can't simply down=
load them, until the routing protocol has done its job, you don't have any w=
ay to do that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting really into scalability issues=
 if you have to preload certificates for anyone who might be in the network.=
 I think it's actually particularly bad for an on-demand protocol.
>>>>=20
>>>> It also precludes what may be better solutions in many cases, for examp=
le draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you get those keys? Also an issue, but a sc=
alable one, you only need your own information, so preloading for example ma=
y be practical.)
>>>>=20
>>>> Of course I'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one=
 and only solution, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key=
 management in (and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be=
 done) add many more months to your time to finish.
>>>>=20
>>>> This also doesn't address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop=
 architecture. I have some comments to make on that - comments that recognis=
e there's a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I want to fo=
rmulate them more clearly.
>>>>=20
>>>> -- =20
>>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth <lanilsson@gmail.com> w=
rote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Charlie,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here, with regar=
ds to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 should have a=
 more integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.
>>>>> =20
>>>>> The use of HMACs for message authentication is a well known and well u=
sed approach. However, the use of HMAC implies the use of symmetric keys, an=
d the question is how this key distribution should take place. I have seen h=
ints of the usage of a single shared key, but this seems a little naive to m=
e.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of p=
ublic keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the S=
AODV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general=
 idea there is good.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, definitely. You already r=
ely on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the AODVv2 draft. However=
, in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity protection, and less tha=
t of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 se=
ems to address integrity more than authentication.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In summary, what I personally would like to see is a stronger integrat=
ion of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the AODVv2 protocol specification, tha=
t also addresses authentication and key management considerations. As it is,=
 it would be very hard to read the AODVv2 and its security considerations an=
d build an implementation that incorporates RFC 7182, and have different imp=
lementations inter-operable.=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Anders
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@ear=
thlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AO=
DVv2, I have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and des=
tination of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and=
 destination of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a u=
seful route, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the en=
dpoints.  Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the existing h=
op-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> It can use more work:
>>>>>> - Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?  If so, what is t=
he simplest way to make the conversion?
>>>>>> - Should other message types be covered as well?  This would be prett=
y simple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to=
 understand.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Comments are solicited and welcome.  The content of the document may w=
ell belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolutio=
ns for the many recent comments.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Charlie P.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> manet mailing list
>>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equ=
iv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div>Outside requ=
irements are of course the trump card, and the reason one size doesn't fit a=
ll.<br><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><=
div><br><div><br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (=
iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemo=
syne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div>On 6 Mar 2016, at 22:49, Anders Nilss=
on Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lanilsson@gmail.com">lanilsson@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta http-equiv=3D=
"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Hi,<br><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Doing a AODVv2 7183 equivalent s=
ounds like a very good idea, and I would fully support it and be able to con=
tribute if needed. It would also be able to house more security implementati=
on details for better inter-operability that I was looking for. I would like=
 to hear what Charlie's and the other authors thoughts are. I got the impres=
sion this was partly the motive of draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 which p=
rompted me to start this discussion.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_defaul=
t" style=3D"font-size:small">As a side note, we did initially have an approa=
ch very similar to IBS but moved to certificates based on outside requiremen=
ts. <br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Tha=
nks,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Anders <=
br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></di=
v></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Ma=
r 6, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlo=
ve@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"auto"><div>Note that for OLSRv2 there is 7183 as well as 7182. AODVv2 ne=
eds its 7183 equivalent, though of course it doesn't have to be a separate d=
raft.</div><div><br></div><div>In terms of what you say, I completely disagr=
ee that if you have an IP address it's just as easy to have a certificate.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Transferring certificates in TC or RREQ messages is a=
 serious overhead. Just in HELLO messages is bad enough, but inadequate for e=
nd to end authentication. Alternatively they need pre-distribution.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Addresses on the other hand have neither of those disadvant=
ages. They are small. They are being included in messages anyway. But also, y=
ou learn IP addresses during routing (including neighbour discovery). I can a=
nd have implemented OLSRv2 with IBS without any prior knowledge of any other=
 participant in the network.</div><div><br></div><div>Also note in particula=
r that as far as I'm concerned other nodes aren't just destinations, many ar=
e relays. I might need prior knowledge of actual traffic destinations if I'm=
 the traffic source. But not of relays. And if I'm a relay, not even that. (=
That's especially true for AODVv2 that just gets an IP packet to deliver out=
 of the blue.)</div><div><br></div><div>More, even there, the final destinat=
ion in routing protocol terms is a router, not a host. For encrypted comms i=
t's a host I want to communicate with, have certificate of etc. And actually=
 I can do that without a certificate too by using identity based mechanisms.=
 Which is also something we're able to do.</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, we'=
re both saying no single solution. But I think you're downplaying the compli=
cations of what you're suggesting. Mostly that doesn't matter, but it is an a=
dditional reason I don't think this (in the AODVv2 draft, or its 7183 equiva=
lent) is the right place.</div><div><br></div><div>The right place is a draf=
t how to use the approach you favour within a 7182 framework. Which then AOD=
Vv2 (or even OLSRv2) could then adopt as required. Similar approach to the I=
BS draft. People can then take it or leave it. (I'm not claiming IBS is perf=
ect either, it's not very low processing power friendly for one. I'd also ob=
ject if that were pushed as the primary approach.)</div><div><br><div>-- &nb=
sp;<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Christopher Dearlove<=
/div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank=
">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:ch=
ris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>=
 (home)</div></font></span></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br>On 6 M=
ar 2016, at 00:16, Anders Nilsson Plymoth &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lanilsson@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">lanilsson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:small">Hi Christopher,<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-size:small">My point wasn't that a signature based appr=
oach should be the only solution, but that I think that signatures are prefe=
rable over HMAC based E2E authentication approaches. My point was also that I=
 would like to see a tighter integration of the methods in RFC 7182 into the=
 AODVv2 draft describing the protocol operation rather than just as security=
 considerations. Maybe this is deemed not necessary, but I find that when us=
ing the current draft in combination with RFC 7182, it is hard to make an im=
plementation that would be inter-operable. =46rom my reading of RFC 7182 sig=
natures should be supported, but is unclear how. I also see authentication a=
s desirable which was also indicated by Charlie.<br><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">Even so, I regard a signature based=
 approach as highly desirable, draft-ietf-manet-ibs is one example, but I do=
n't see the big issue with certificates. Each node would need a certificate b=
efore joining the network. This is similar to the keys in draft-ietf-manet-i=
bs. The node would also need to have the certificate for the destination nod=
e in order to setup the route. How would have the node have this certificate=
? How would the node know the IP address of the destination? If a node knows=
 the IP address of a destination and would like to exchange encrypted data, i=
t would also have the certificate. How about authenticating routing messages=
? Certificates of neighboring nodes can easily be exchanged by a local proto=
col, e.g. NHDP. I have manet type network running with this approach and it w=
orks well. It also enables TLS/DTLS when desirable. <br>Another approach as t=
aken by SAODV was to include public keys, signatures and hashes into routing=
 messages. &nbsp; </div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:smal=
l"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small">And to q=
uote you, I am saying not this is the one and only solution, but one that I t=
hink shouldn't be excluded.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D=
"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon=
t-size:small">Anders<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-siz=
e:small"><br><br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:36 PM, Christopher Dearlove <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>Requiring a signature ba=
sed approach is I think quite undesirable. That puts a serious key managemen=
t load on what is an ad hoc network, some of which are intended to be lightw=
eight.</div><div><br></div><div>Where are the certificates coming from? Note=
 that you can't simply download them, until the routing protocol has done it=
s job, you don't have any way to do that. Pre-loaded? But that's getting rea=
lly into scalability issues if you have to preload certificates for anyone w=
ho might be in the network. I think it's actually particularly bad for an on=
-demand protocol.</div><div><br></div><div>It also precludes what may be bet=
ter solutions in many cases, for example draft-ietf-manet-ibs. (How do you g=
et those keys? Also an issue, but a scalable one, you only need your own inf=
ormation, so preloading for example may be practical.)</div><div><br></div><=
div>Of course I'm not saying this might not be a solution, just not the one a=
nd only solution, and not to exclude all others. If you do have to put key m=
anagement in (and it's hard to talk the SEC ADs out of that, but it can be d=
one) add many more months to your time to finish.</div><div><br></div><div>T=
his also doesn't address the key issue of the end to end or hop by hop archi=
tecture. I have some comments to make on that - comments that recognise ther=
e's a real issue that there is no ideal solution to - but I want to formulat=
e them more clearly.</div><div><br>-- &nbsp;<span><font color=3D"#888888"><d=
iv>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></font></s=
pan></div><div><div><div><br>On 5 Mar 2016, at 11:59, Anders Nilsson Plymoth=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lanilsson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lanilsson@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D=
"ltr"><div style=3D"font-size:small">Hi Charlie,<br><br></div><div style=3D"=
font-size:small">I understand you are mainly addressing E2E protection here,=
 with regards to RREQ and RREP, but I am of the strong opinion that AODVv2 s=
hould have a more integrated security model, rather than ad hoc.<br>&nbsp;<b=
r></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">The use of HMACs for message authenti=
cation is a well known and well used approach. However, the use of HMAC impl=
ies the use of symmetric keys, and the question is how this key distribution=
 should take place. I have seen hints of the usage of a single shared key, b=
ut this seems a little naive to me.<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:sma=
ll">I would instead argue for a signature based approach, i.e. the use of pu=
blic keys and certificates. This is the approach that was proposed for the S=
AODV draft, and although that draft is clearly outdated, I think the general=
 idea there is good.<br><br>Regarding RFC 7182 instead of RFC 4868? Yes, def=
initely. You already rely on RFC 7182 for the security considerations of the=
 AODVv2 draft. However, in the AODVv2 draft you mainly consider integrity pr=
otection, and less that of authentication. Also, this draft, draft-perkins-m=
anet-aodv-e2esec-00 seems to address integrity more than authentication.<br>=
<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small">In summary, what I personally would=
 like to see is a stronger integration of RFC 7182 and its concepts into the=
 AODVv2 protocol specification, that also addresses authentication and key m=
anagement considerations. As it is, it would be very hard to read the AODVv2=
 and its security considerations and build an implementation that incorporat=
es RFC 7182, and have different implementations inter-operable. <br><br></di=
v><div style=3D"font-size:small">Thanks,<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:sm=
all">Anders<br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-size:small"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:small"><br></div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 3, 2=
016 at 11:24 PM, Charlie Perkins <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cha=
rles.perkins@earthlink.net" target=3D"_blank">charles.perkins@earthlink.net<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><b=
r>
Hello folks,<br>
<br>
In order to promote useful discussion about the security model for AODVv2, I=
 have submitted a new draft with an idea to enable the source and destinatio=
n of a Route Discovery to verify that they were indeed the source and destin=
ation of the route that was discovered. This is not a guarantee of a useful r=
oute, because intermediate routers are not authenticated, only the endpoints=
.&nbsp; Nevertheless the idea seems like a useful adjunct to the existing ho=
p-by-hop security as currently specified in AODVv2.<br>
<br>
It can use more work:<br>
- Should RFC 7182 be specified instead of RFC 4868?&nbsp; If so, what is the=
 simplest way to make the conversion?<br>
- Should other message types be covered as well?&nbsp; This would be pretty s=
imple; I just need to reword the section specifying the input data.<br>
<br>
I only used RFC 4868 because it seemed very straightforward for me to unders=
tand.<br>
<br>
Comments are solicited and welcome.&nbsp; The content of the document may we=
ll belong in the upcoming revision of AODVv2 that will be provide resolution=
s for the many recent comments.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Charlie P.<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a></s=
pan><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div>=
</blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 08:39:37 +0100
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Christopher Dearlove
<christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
> RFC5444 is irrelevant to the point here.
>
> We need an interface identifier. As a matter of practical engineering, you could use MAC address or anything else you have. We just don't need the choice hard specified. It's exactly what NHDP does.
>
> But NHDP also ensures that identifier is local, router A doesn't want or need to know about router B's interface identifiers. I'd be very set against that, but with the same small restriction as NHDP, no need.

You would be very set against "local identifiers" or against "letting
other routers know about your identifiers" ? ;)

> There is also then no interoperability issue, even if I use MAC address, Henning uses sequence numbers from zero, and whoever else uses a memory address, as our local identifiers.

Yes... as long as you don't need to share these identifiers you are good.

I have been looking for a SANE way to get the MAC address of incoming
UDP packets for ages... the only solution seems to be "use a RAW
socket and filter out the right UDP packets yourself", which sounds
insane.

Henning Rogge


From nobody Sun Mar  6 23:53:34 2016
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 07:53:25 +0000
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/jVLoBUpRQre-hlyfpCgw2cL0rGM>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Unidirectional links versus MIAs (multi-interface IP addresses)
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Set against sharing them. Having them is fine.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 7 Mar 2016, at 07:39, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Christopher Dearlove
> <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
>> RFC5444 is irrelevant to the point here.
>>=20
>> We need an interface identifier. As a matter of practical engineering, yo=
u could use MAC address or anything else you have. We just don't need the ch=
oice hard specified. It's exactly what NHDP does.
>>=20
>> But NHDP also ensures that identifier is local, router A doesn't want or n=
eed to know about router B's interface identifiers. I'd be very set against t=
hat, but with the same small restriction as NHDP, no need.
>=20
> You would be very set against "local identifiers" or against "letting
> other routers know about your identifiers" ? ;)
>=20
>> There is also then no interoperability issue, even if I use MAC address, H=
enning uses sequence numbers from zero, and whoever else uses a memory addre=
ss, as our local identifiers.
>=20
> Yes... as long as you don't need to share these identifiers you are good.
>=20
> I have been looking for a SANE way to get the MAC address of incoming
> UDP packets for ages... the only solution seems to be "use a RAW
> socket and filter out the right UDP packets yourself", which sounds
> insane.
>=20
> Henning Rogge


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Subject: [manet] DLEP finished last call
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DLEP has finished last call.  There were some comments which were posted
and I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.  I believe
Rick/Stan have this in hand.  The comments seem mostly positive with regard
to moving forward, so as soon as new version is written up with appropriate
changes I'll redo the writeup and move the documents out of the WG.

Justin

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<div dir=3D"ltr">DLEP has finished last call.=C2=A0 There were some comment=
s which were posted and I&#39;m awaiting follow up to the list and an updat=
ed draft.=C2=A0 I believe Rick/Stan have this in hand.=C2=A0 The comments s=
eem mostly positive with regard to moving forward, so as soon as new versio=
n is written up with appropriate changes I&#39;ll redo the writeup and move=
 the documents out of the WG.<div><br></div><div>Justin</div></div>

--089e01176311a9738e052d7cf7be--


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 23:32:06 +0000
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP finished last call
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In your reply to me on 29th February you said the below (your comment follow=
ing your quote of me. I don't believe that has happened. I for one was waiti=
ng on that before seeing if I had any further comments.

On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlov=
e@baesystems.com> wrote:
> By =E2=80=9Cresolution of comments=E2=80=9D, do you mean that the authors s=
hould provide
> some review responses and comments on what=E2=80=99s done beyond just here=
 is the
> latest version?

Yes that is exactly what I mean. There should be an author response of inclu=
ding review comments and resolution, be it a change in the document or we th=
ought about it but decided against and here is why.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> DLEP has finished last call.  There were some comments which were posted a=
nd I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.  I believe Rick/=
Stan have this in hand.  The comments seem mostly positive with regard to mo=
ving forward, so as soon as new version is written up with appropriate chang=
es I'll redo the writeup and move the documents out of the WG.
>=20
> Justin
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>In your reply to me on 29th February y=
ou said the below (your comment following your quote of me. I don't believe t=
hat has happened. I for one was waiting on that before seeing if I had any f=
urther comments.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"Ap=
pleMailSignature"><pre class=3D"wordwrap" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-b=
ottom: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: inherit; vertical-align:=
 baseline; word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><spa=
n style=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">O=
n Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;
<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></pre><pre class=3D"wordwrap" style=3D"margin=
-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: inher=
it; vertical-align: baseline; word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFont=
TextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(25=
5, 255, 255, 0);">&gt; By =E2=80=9Cresolution of comments=E2=80=9D, do you m=
ean that the authors should provide</span></font></pre><pre class=3D"wordwra=
p" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; l=
ine-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; word-wrap: break-word;"><font=
 face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space: normal; backgrou=
nd-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">&gt; some review responses and comments o=
n what=E2=80=99s done beyond just here is the</span></font></pre><pre class=3D=
"wordwrap" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; padding: 0px; borde=
r: 0px; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline; word-wrap: break-wor=
d;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space: normal;=
 background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">&gt; latest version?</span></fon=
t></pre><pre class=3D"wordwrap" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px=
; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: baseline;=
 word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D=
"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span>=
</font></pre><pre class=3D"wordwrap" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom=
: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; line-height: inherit; vertical-align: base=
line; word-wrap: break-word;"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span sty=
le=3D"white-space: normal; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Yes th=
at is exactly what I mean.  There should be an author response of
including review comments and resolution, be it a change in the document or
we thought about it but decided against and here is why.</span></font></pre>=
<br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christoph=
er.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><b=
r>On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmai=
l.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">DLEP has finished last call.&nbsp; There were so=
me comments which were posted and I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an u=
pdated draft.&nbsp; I believe Rick/Stan have this in hand.&nbsp; The comment=
s seem mostly positive with regard to moving forward, so as soon as new vers=
ion is written up with appropriate changes I'll redo the writeup and move th=
e documents out of the WG.<div><br></div><div>Justin</div></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 23:53:03 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP finished last call
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I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016, 6:32 PM Christopher Dearlove <
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

> In your reply to me on 29th February you said the below (your comment
> following your quote of me. I don't believe that has happened. I for one
> was waiting on that before seeing if I had any further comments.
>
> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearl=
ove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>
> > By =E2=80=9Cresolution of comments=E2=80=9D, do you mean that the autho=
rs should provide
>
> > some review responses and comments on what=E2=80=99s done beyond just h=
ere is the
>
> > latest version?
>
>
> Yes that is exactly what I mean.  There should be an author response of
> including review comments and resolution, be it a change in the document =
or
> we thought about it but decided against and here is why.
>
>
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>
> On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> DLEP has finished last call.  There were some comments which were posted
> and I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.  I believe
> Rick/Stan have this in hand.  The comments seem mostly positive with rega=
rd
> to moving forward, so as soon as new version is written up with appropria=
te
> changes I'll redo the writeup and move the documents out of the WG.
>
> Justin
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.=
 </p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Mar 7, 2016, 6:32 P=
M Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=
">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>In your reply to me on 29th February y=
ou said the below (your comment following your quote of me. I don&#39;t bel=
ieve that has happened. I for one was waiting on that before seeing if I ha=
d any further comments.</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"margin-top:0=
px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-al=
ign:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><sp=
an style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">On Mon=
, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;
<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.de=
arlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margi=
n-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vert=
ical-align:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBo=
dy"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"=
>&gt; By =E2=80=9Cresolution of comments=E2=80=9D, do you mean that the aut=
hors should provide</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-=
bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseli=
ne;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=
=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">&gt; some revi=
ew responses and comments on what=E2=80=99s done beyond just here is the</s=
pan></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px=
;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;word-wrap:break-wor=
d"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;b=
ackground-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">&gt; latest version?</span></font></pr=
e><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;lin=
e-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=
=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;background-col=
or:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-ali=
gn:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><spa=
n style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Yes tha=
t is exactly what I mean.  There should be an author response of
including review comments and resolution, be it a change in the document or
we thought about it but decided against and here is why.</span></font></pre=
><br>-- =C2=A0<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christo=
pher.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</=
a></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Jus=
tin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebe=
master@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
><div dir=3D"ltr">DLEP has finished last call.=C2=A0 There were some commen=
ts which were posted and I&#39;m awaiting follow up to the list and an upda=
ted draft.=C2=A0 I believe Rick/Stan have this in hand.=C2=A0 The comments =
seem mostly positive with regard to moving forward, so as soon as new versi=
on is written up with appropriate changes I&#39;ll redo the writeup and mov=
e the documents out of the WG.<div><br></div><div>Justin</div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><=
span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>manet =
mailing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 23:57:01 +0000
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP finished last call
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Which doesn't appear to me to be consistent with declaring end of WGLC.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 7 Mar 2016, at 23:53, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.
>=20
>=20
>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016, 6:32 PM Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@g=
mail.com> wrote:
>> In your reply to me on 29th February you said the below (your comment fol=
lowing your quote of me. I don't believe that has happened. I for one was wa=
iting on that before seeing if I had any further comments.
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dear=
love@baesystems.com> wrote:
>> > By =E2=80=9Cresolution of comments=E2=80=9D, do you mean that the autho=
rs should provide
>> > some review responses and comments on what=E2=80=99s done beyond just h=
ere is the
>> > latest version?
>>=20
>> Yes that is exactly what I mean. There should be an author response of in=
cluding review comments and resolution, be it a change in the document or we=
 thought about it but decided against and here is why.
>>=20
>> -- =20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>>=20
>>> On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> DLEP has finished last call.  There were some comments which were posted=
 and I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.  I believe Ric=
k/Stan have this in hand.  The comments seem mostly positive with regard to m=
oving forward, so as soon as new version is written up with appropriate chan=
ges I'll redo the writeup and move the documents out of the WG.
>>>=20
>>> Justin
>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--Apple-Mail-4655B237-C1F8-4846-9258-6755330662C1
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	charset=utf-8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Which doesn't appear to me to be consi=
stent with declaring end of WGLC.<br><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</=
div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearl=
ove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br>On 7 Mar 2016, at 23:53, Justin Dean &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p dir=3D"ltr">I'm awaiting f=
ollow up to the list and an updated draft. </p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Mar 7, 2016, 6:32 PM=
 Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">=
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div>In your reply to me on 29th February you sai=
d the below (your comment following your quote of me. I don't believe that h=
as happened. I for one was waiting on that before seeing if I had any furthe=
r comments.</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;w=
ord-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"whi=
te-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 a=
t 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;
<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dea=
rlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-=
top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertica=
l-align:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody">=
<span style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">&gt;=
 By =E2=80=9Cresolution of comments=E2=80=9D, do you mean that the authors s=
hould provide</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:=
0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;word-=
wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-s=
pace:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">&gt; some review responses=
 and comments on what=E2=80=99s done beyond just here is the</span></font></=
pre><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;li=
ne-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D=
"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:r=
gba(255,255,255,0)">&gt; latest version?</span></font></pre><pre style=3D"ma=
rgin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padding:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;ve=
rtical-align:baseline;word-wrap:break-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleB=
ody"><span style=3D"white-space:normal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"=
><br></span></font></pre><pre style=3D"margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;padd=
ing:0px;border:0px;line-height:inherit;vertical-align:baseline;word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><font face=3D"UICTFontTextStyleBody"><span style=3D"white-space:nor=
mal;background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Yes that is exactly what I mean.  T=
here should be an author response of
including review comments and resolution, be it a change in the document or
we thought about it but decided against and here is why.</span></font></pre>=
<br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christoph=
er.dearlove@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><=
/div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br>On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Justin D=
ean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaster=
@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr">DLEP has finished last call.&nbsp; There were some comments which=
 were posted and I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.&nb=
sp; I believe Rick/Stan have this in hand.&nbsp; The comments seem mostly po=
sitive with regard to moving forward, so as soon as new version is written u=
p with appropriate changes I'll redo the writeup and move the documents out o=
f the WG.<div><br></div><div>Justin</div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><div dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><s=
pan>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>manet ma=
iling list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailma=
n/listinfo/manet" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ma=
net</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-4655B237-C1F8-4846-9258-6755330662C1--


From nobody Tue Mar  8 02:01:50 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP finished last call
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP finished last call
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May I request a small delay before we exit last call?=0A=
=0A=
Stan and I have a draft-20 almost ready to go, but we need 24 hours to =0A=
complete our deep review of the comments we have had from the list.=0A=
=0A=
I will be attempting a complete response the Chris' comments today, but =0A=
as they are based on draft-14 and spread over several emails it might =0A=
not be completely satisfactory.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 07/03/16 23:57, Christopher Dearlove wrote:=0A=
> Which doesn't appear to me to be consistent with declaring end of WGLC.=
=0A=
>=0A=
> --=0A=
> Christopher Dearlove=0A=
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>=0A=
>=0A=
> On 7 Mar 2016, at 23:53, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com=0A=
> <mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com>> wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>> I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated draft.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016, 6:32 PM Christopher Dearlove=0A=
>> <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=0A=
>> <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     In your reply to me on 29th February you said the below (your=0A=
>>     comment following your quote of me. I don't believe that has=0A=
>>     happened. I for one was waiting on that before seeing if I had any=
=0A=
>>     further comments.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <=0A=
>>     chris.dearlove@baesystems.com=0A=
>>     <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     > By =93resolution of comments=94, do you mean that the authors shou=
ld provide=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     > some review responses and comments on what=92s done beyond just he=
re is the=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     > latest version?=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     Yes that is exactly what I mean. There should be an author=0A=
>>     response of including review comments and resolution, be it a=0A=
>>     change in the document or we thought about it but decided against=0A=
>>     and here is why.=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     --=0A=
>>     Christopher Dearlove=0A=
>>     christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.co=
m>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>     On 7 Mar 2016, at 22:27, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com=0A=
>>     <mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>=0A=
>>>     DLEP has finished last call.  There were some comments which were=
=0A=
>>>     posted and I'm awaiting follow up to the list and an updated=0A=
>>>     draft.  I believe Rick/Stan have this in hand.  The comments seem=
=0A=
>>>     mostly positive with regard to moving forward, so as soon as new=0A=
>>>     version is written up with appropriate changes I'll redo the=0A=
>>>     writeup and move the documents out of the WG.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>     Justin=0A=
>>>     _______________________________________________=0A=
>>>     manet mailing list=0A=
>>>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>>=0A=
=0A=


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
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On 08/03/16 10:01, Rick Taylor wrote:=0A=
> May I request a small delay before we exit last call?=0A=
>=0A=
> Stan and I have a draft-20 almost ready to go, but we need 24 hours to=0A=
> complete our deep review of the comments we have had from the list.=0A=
>=0A=
> I will be attempting a complete response the Chris' comments today, but=
=0A=
> as they are based on draft-14 and spread over several emails it might=0A=
> not be completely satisfactory.=0A=
=0A=
My bad - Chris' comments are on draft-17.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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Hello Christopher,

Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>:

> I=92ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which won=92t =
be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than attempting anything =
consolidated. And most can wait until next week at the earliest.
> =20
> But one to kick off.
> =20
> The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, it =
passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives messages =
from there. There are some other details, but that=92s the most =
important.
> =20
> The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses =
and so on. It doesn=92t handle flooding, because its packets (which may =
contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.
> =20
> There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most =
obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =
=93please try to keep these messages together=94. If there are any =
additional requests that should be supported, and are not incompatible =
with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity =
to get those in.
> =20
> But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =93multiplex=94 (as a whole or part =
word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:
> =20
>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
>    An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
>    certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.
> =20
> I think that=92s not how I see it, that that=92s the role of the =
(subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from addresses and =
attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a =
protocol shouldn=92t be modifying it. Note that I=92ve expressed that as =
an opinion, though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort =
of specialised signature, and we can=92t let the multiplexer destroy =
that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it =
will then remove them before the protocol gets the packet again.)

True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I =
don't), what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be =
reshuffled during message creation, but please pay attention that some =
things MUST be kept in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 =
message." This is especially important for RERR messages, which could =
easily get chopped up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is =
small.

If we change that paragraph to

   [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [RFC5444] implementation MAY choose to optimize the content of
   certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.
  =20
and the language of, say,  7.1.3. RREQ Regeneration from

   This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444]
   message (see Section 8) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.

to something like

   This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444]
   message (see Section 8), which is handed to the RFC5444 multiplexer
   for further processing.
   By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message to =
LL-MANET-
   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.

(and the same thing for 7.2.3. RREP Regeneration, 6.5. Message =
Transmission, etc.), would that resolve the issue?

> =20
> This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage =
draft. If it gets WGLCed as requested, I=92ll submit it to myself and =
the rest of the author team.
> =20
> So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the =
multiplexer. That shouldn=92t matter (though it=92s always better to =
have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does.

I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of the =
"RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", which is =
why I thought the AODVv2<->RFC5444 interaction that should be described =
clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation =
process what a message looks like (and where it should be sent). I've =
assumed that this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all control to =
5444, so obviously it wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, it would =
instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wasn't aware that this must be =
stated explicitly.

I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should be =
clarified in the 5444-usage draft...

With kind regards,
Lotte Steenbrink

> But unfortunately the draft still has material that contradicts that =
model, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two =
paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential change.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_BB8DEE72-A731-4EDA-8973-AAA6D3E48AE6
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hello =
Christopher,<div><br><div><div>Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.co=
m</a>&gt;:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I=92ve read some of =
draft -13. I will provide comments (which won=92t be comprehensive) in =
bite sized chunks rather than attempting anything consolidated. And most =
can wait until next week at the earliest.<o:p></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">But =
one to kick off.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The =
architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, it passes =
them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives messages from =
there. There are some other details, but that=92s the most =
important.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">The 5444 =
multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses and so on. It =
doesn=92t handle flooding, because its packets (which may contain =
multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one =
hop.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;">There are other requests that can be made to the =
multiplexer, most obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but =
also things like =93please try to keep these messages together=94. If =
there are any additional requests that should be supported, and are not =
incompatible with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good =
opportunity to get those in.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">But, =
looking at the AODVv2 draft, =93multiplex=94 (as a whole or part word) =
only appears twice, both in the paragraph:<o:p></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
[RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple =
protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; An =
[RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content =
of<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
certain message elements to reduce control message =
overhead.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I think =
that=92s not how I see it, that that=92s the role of the (subtlely =
different) 5444 message creation process from addresses and attributes. =
I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a protocol =
shouldn=92t be modifying it. Note that I=92ve expressed that as an =
opinion, though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort of =
specialised signature, and we can=92t let the multiplexer destroy that. =
(The multiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then =
remove them before the protocol gets the packet =
again.)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>True. If I =
remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I don't), what we =
were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be reshuffled during =
message creation, but please pay attention that some things MUST be kept =
in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 message." This is =
especially important for RERR messages, which could easily get chopped =
up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is =
small.</div><div><br></div><div>If we change that paragraph =
to</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  =
 [<a name=3D"ref-RFC5444" id=3D"ref-RFC5444">RFC5444</a>] provides a =
multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>] implementation MAY choose to optimize the =
content of
   certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   =
</pre></div><div>and the language of, say, &nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" =
name=3D"section-7.1.3" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1=
.3" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: =
black; text-decoration: none;">7.1.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;">.  RREQ =
Regeneration&nbsp;</span>from</div><div><br></div><div><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message =
is used to create a corresponding [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized =
Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8">=
Section 8</a>) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if =
known.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>to something =
like</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  =
 This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized =
Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8">=
Section 8</a>), which is handed to the&nbsp;RFC5444 =
multiplexer</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   for =
further processing.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  =
 By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message to =
LL-MANET-</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   =
Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if =
known.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>(and the same thing for&nbsp;<a =
class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.2.3" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2=
.3" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: =
black; text-decoration: none;">7.2.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;">.  RREP =
Regeneration</span>,&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-6.5" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5=
" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: =
black; text-decoration: none;">6.5</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;">.  Message =
Transmission,</span>&nbsp;etc.), would that resolve the =
issue?</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">This is =
probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. If it =
gets WGLCed as requested, I=92ll submit it to myself and the rest of the =
author team.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">So there =
is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the multiplexer. That =
shouldn=92t matter (though it=92s always better to have it) if you =
assume 5498 applies, as it =
does.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I've always =
assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of the "RFC5444 =
component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", which is why I =
thought the AODVv2&lt;-&gt;RFC5444 interaction that should be described =
clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation =
process what a message looks like (and where it should be sent). I've =
assumed that this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all control to =
5444, so obviously it wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, it would =
instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wasn't aware that this must be =
stated explicitly.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm not sure if this is a =
subtlety or a misconception that should be clarified in the 5444-usage =
draft...</div><div><br></div><div>With kind regards,</div><div>Lotte =
Steenbrink</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"> But unfortunately the draft still has material =
that contradicts that model, which needs to go. In particular (but not =
only) the first two paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential =
change.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);">--<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);">Christopher =
Dearlove<br>Senior Principal Engineer<br>BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br></span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, =
190);">___________________________________________________________________=
_______<br></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);"><br></span><b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, =
125, 125);">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);">: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245 =
242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: =
blue;">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);"><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, =
Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 =
8HN.<br><a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, 139, =
146);">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence =
Limited<br>Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451<o:p></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
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style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, =
GU2 7YP<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><p>*****************************=
***************************************<br>This email and any =
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 13:21:35 +0000
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/E4bJWr-VUcIzPcRaRWNzdUiYx1Y>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org, manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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I'm reading this on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it better=
 for longer comment.

But there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, two thi=
ngs in 5444. One is about formats, one is about multiplexing.

Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as formats. Many pe=
ople (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general 5444 formatter/parser. T=
hat's up to the implementer to decide what to make it do, whether to optimis=
e in that formatter, outside the formatter, or not at all. (Personally I hav=
e some inside, some outside.)

The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That takes 5=
444 formatted messages (and  possibly some other things) and forms 5444 pack=
ets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns messages as delivered=
 to it (hop count and limit apart of course). Otherwise security features in=
 the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't prevent the multiplexer modifying t=
he message before putting it on the wire, that just needs to be reversible. A=
nd obvious example is if you implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multi=
plexer, if it adds them, it also needs to remove them before handing the mes=
sage to the protocol. (You may instead put this in the protocol.)

Yes, I think the usage document could gain from adding this. Note, that's pe=
rsonal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to that yet. But largely because I=
 haven't asked them yet (with one partial exception).

The points I think are:
- Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.
- Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation optio=
nal.
- Multiplexer must deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may modify r=
eversibly. 7182 example (could implement message level in multiplexer, must i=
mplement packet level there).

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com



-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de> w=
rote:
>=20
> Hello Christopher,
>=20
>> Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove=
@baesystems.com>:
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which won=E2=
=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than attempting anythi=
ng consolidated. And most can wait until next week at the earliest.
>> =20
>> But one to kick off.
>> =20
>> The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, it pas=
ses them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives messages from th=
ere. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s the most important.
>> =20
>> The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses and s=
o on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets (which may con=
tain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.
>> =20
>> There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obviou=
sly which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =E2=80=9Cpl=
ease try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there are any addition=
al requests that should be supported, and are not incompatible with the arch=
itecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity to get those in.
>> =20
>> But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a whole=
 or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:
>> =20
>>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
>>    An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>    certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.
>> =20
>> I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the role of t=
he (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from addresses and att=
ributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a protoc=
ol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that I=E2=80=99ve expressed that a=
s an opinion, though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort of=
 specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99t let the multiplexer destroy tha=
t. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then r=
emove them before the protocol gets the packet again.)
>=20
> True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I don't), w=
hat we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be reshuffled during=
 message creation, but please pay attention that some things MUST be kept in=
 one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 message." This is especially=
 important for RERR messages, which could easily get chopped up into multipl=
e messages if the underlying MTU is small.
>=20
> If we change that paragraph to
>=20
>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
>    An [RFC5444] implementation MAY choose to optimize the content of
>    certain elements during message creation to reduce control message over=
head.
>   =20
> and the language of, say,  7.1.3. RREQ Regeneration from
>=20
>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444]
>    message (see Section 8) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>=20
> to something like
>=20
>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444]
>    message (see Section 8), which is handed to the RFC5444 multiplexer
>    for further processing.
>    By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message to L=
L-MANET-
>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>=20
> (and the same thing for 7.2.3. RREP Regeneration, 6.5. Message Transmissio=
n, etc.), would that resolve the issue?
>=20
>> =20
>> This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. I=
f it gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself and the rest=
 of the author team.
>> =20
>> So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the multiplexer.=
 That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always better to have it=
) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does.
>=20
> I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of the "R=
FC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", which is why I=
 thought the AODVv2<->RFC5444 interaction that should be described clearly w=
as the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation process what a mess=
age looks like (and where it should be sent). I've assumed that this is the p=
art where AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously it wouldn't mu=
lticast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wa=
sn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.
>=20
> I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should be clari=
fied in the 5444-usage draft...
>=20
> With kind regards,
> Lotte Steenbrink
>=20
>> But unfortunately the draft still has material that contradicts that mode=
l, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs o=
f section 6.5. This is an essential change.
>> =20
>> --
>>=20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
_
>>=20
>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo=
w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>> www.baesystems.com/ai
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>=20
>> =20
>> ********************************************************************
>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>> ********************************************************************
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equ=
iv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div>I'm reading t=
his on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it better for longer c=
omment.</div><div><br></div><div>But there are, and I think this is a potent=
ial source for confusion, two things in 5444. One is about formats, one is a=
bout multiplexing.</div><div><br></div><div>Formatting (and parsing) isn't d=
efined as a process, but as formats. Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 w=
ill create a general 5444 formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to d=
ecide what to make it do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the=
 formatter, or not at all. (Personally I have some inside, some outside.)</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denu=
ltiplexer). That takes 5444 formatted messages (and &nbsp;possibly some othe=
r things) and forms 5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer r=
eturns messages as delivered to it (hop count and limit apart of course). Ot=
herwise security features in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't preven=
t the multiplexer modifying the message before putting it on the wire, that j=
ust needs to be reversible. And obvious example is if you implement 7182 ICV=
s and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it adds them, it also needs to remov=
e them before handing the message to the protocol. (You may instead put this=
 in the protocol.)</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, I think the usage document c=
ould gain from adding this. Note, that's personal only, my co-authors haven'=
t agreed to that yet. But largely because I haven't asked them yet (with one=
 partial exception).</div><div><br></div><div>The points I think are:</div><=
div>- Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.</div><div>- Generic formatte=
r/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation optional.</div><div>- M=
ultiplexer must deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may modify rev=
ersibly. 7182 example (could implement message level in multiplexer, must im=
plement packet level there).</div><div><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove=
</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dea=
rlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br><div><br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christoph=
er Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mn=
emosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div>On 8 M=
ar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@f=
u-berlin.de">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-12=
52">Hello Christopher,<div><br><div><div>Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dear=
love, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D=
"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: norma=
l; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-h=
eight: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSecti=
on1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;">I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide com=
ments (which won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather tha=
n attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at the=
 earliest.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=
=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;">But one to kick off.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;">The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 create=
s messages, it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receive=
s messages from there. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s the m=
ost important.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;">The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresse=
s and so on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets (which m=
ay contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.<o:=
p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">There a=
re other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obviously which i=
nterface(s) this message is for, but also things like =E2=80=9Cplease try to=
 keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there are any additional requests=
 that should be supported, and are not incompatible with the architecture, t=
hen the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity to get those in.<o:p></o:p></=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">But, looking at t=
he AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a whole or part word) only a=
ppears twice, both in the paragraph:<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family:=
 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for=
 multiple protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [RFC5444] multi=
plexer MAY choose to optimize the content of<o:p></o:p></span></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&=
nbsp; certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.<o:p></o:p=
></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I think=
 that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the role of the (subtl=
ely different) 5444 message creation process from addresses and attributes. I=
 think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a protocol shouldn=
=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opin=
ion, though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort of speciali=
sed signature, and we can=E2=80=99t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The m=
ultiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove th=
em before the protocol gets the packet again.)</div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please st=
op me if I don't), what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY b=
e reshuffled during message creation, but please pay attention that some thi=
ngs MUST be kept in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 message."=
 This is especially important for RERR messages, which could easily get chop=
ped up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is small.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>If we change that paragraph to</div><div><br></div><div><pre clas=
s=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;=
 page-break-before: always;">   [<a name=3D"ref-RFC5444" id=3D"ref-RFC5444">=
RFC5444</a>] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Genera=
lized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>=
] implementation MAY choose to optimize the content of
   certain elements during message creation to reduce control message overhe=
ad.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   </pre></div><div>and the l=
anguage of, say, &nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.1.3" href=3D"=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1.3" style=3D=
"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: black; text-dec=
oration: none;">7.1.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; fo=
nt-weight: bold;">.  RREQ Regeneration&nbsp;</span>from</div><div><br></div>=
<div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margi=
n-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message is used to=
 create a corresponding [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" tit=
le=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&=
quot;">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodv=
v2-13#section-8">Section 8</a>) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-=

   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>to s=
omething like</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-=
size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;"=
>   This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [<a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Netw=
ork (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodv=
v2-13#section-8">Section 8</a>), which is handed to the&nbsp;RFC5444 multipl=
exer</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   for further processing.</p=
re><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-=
bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   By default, the multiplexer is i=
nstructed to multicast the message to LL-MANET-</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-bef=
ore: always;">   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation. =
 However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>(and=
 the same thing for&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.2.3" href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2.3" style=
=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: black; text-=
decoration: none;">7.2.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt;=
 font-weight: bold;">.  RREP Regeneration</span>,&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink"=
 name=3D"section-6.5" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-a=
odvv2-13#section-6.5" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight=
: bold; color: black; text-decoration: none;">6.5</a><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;">.  Message Transmission,</span=
>&nbsp;etc.), would that resolve the issue?</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div cla=
ss=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">This is probably=
 something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. If it gets WGLCed a=
s requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself and the rest of the author tea=
m.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margi=
n: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">So t=
here is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the multiplexer. That s=
houldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always better to have it) if yo=
u assume 5498 applies, as it does.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of=
 the "RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", which i=
s why I thought the AODVv2&lt;-&gt;RFC5444 interaction that should be descri=
bed clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation proces=
s what a message looks like (and where it should be sent). I've assumed that=
 this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously i=
t wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer t=
o do so. I wasn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should b=
e clarified in the 5444-usage draft...</div><div><br></div><div>With kind re=
gards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;=
 font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"Wor=
dSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> But unfortunately t=
he draft still has material that contradicts that model, which needs to go. I=
n particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs of section 6.5. This is=
 an essential change.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div cla=
ss=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(=
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argin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0=
, 126, 126);">Christopher Dearlove<br>Senior Principal Engineer<br>BAE Syste=
ms Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br></span></b><b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);">_______________________=
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t-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);">: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245=
 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
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e; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: blue;">chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com</span></a><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);"><br></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);">BAE S=
ystems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelm=
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olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, 139=
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Cc: manet@ietf.org, "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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My position on this matter is by an large "what Chris said", fwiw.

Thomas

> On 08 Mar 2016, at 14:21, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail=
.com> wrote:
>=20
> I'm reading this on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it bett=
er for longer comment.
>=20
> But there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, two t=
hings in 5444. One is about formats, one is about multiplexing.
>=20
> Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as formats. Many p=
eople (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general 5444 formatter/parser.=
 That's up to the implementer to decide what to make it do, whether to optim=
ise in that formatter, outside the formatter, or not at all. (Personally I h=
ave some inside, some outside.)
>=20
> The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That take=
s 5444 formatted messages (and  possibly some other things) and forms 5444 p=
ackets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns messages as delive=
red to it (hop count and limit apart of course). Otherwise security features=
 in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't prevent the multiplexer modifyi=
ng the message before putting it on the wire, that just needs to be reversib=
le. And obvious example is if you implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the m=
ultiplexer, if it adds them, it also needs to remove them before handing the=
 message to the protocol. (You may instead put this in the protocol.)
>=20
> Yes, I think the usage document could gain from adding this. Note, that's p=
ersonal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to that yet. But largely because I=
 haven't asked them yet (with one partial exception).
>=20
> The points I think are:
> - Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.
> - Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation opt=
ional.
> - Multiplexer must deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may modif=
y reversibly. 7182 example (could implement message level in multiplexer, mu=
st implement packet level there).
>=20
> --=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -- =20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de> w=
rote:
>=20
>> Hello Christopher,
>>=20
>>> Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlov=
e@baesystems.com>:
>>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which won=E2=
=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than attempting anythi=
ng consolidated. And most can wait until next week at the earliest.
>>> =20
>>> But one to kick off.
>>> =20
>>> The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, it pa=
sses them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives messages from t=
here. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s the most important.
>>> =20
>>> The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses and s=
o on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets (which may con=
tain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.
>>> =20
>>> There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obvio=
usly which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =E2=80=9Cp=
lease try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there are any additio=
nal requests that should be supported, and are not incompatible with the arc=
hitecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity to get those in.
>>> =20
>>> But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a whol=
e or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:
>>> =20
>>>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
>>>    An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>>    certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.
>>> =20
>>> I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the role of=
 the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from addresses and a=
ttributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a prot=
ocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that I=E2=80=99ve expressed tha=
t as an opinion, though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort=
 of specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99t let the multiplexer destroy t=
hat. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will the=
n remove them before the protocol gets the packet again.)
>>=20
>> True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I don't),=
 what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be reshuffled duri=
ng message creation, but please pay attention that some things MUST be kept i=
n one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 message." This is especiall=
y important for RERR messages, which could easily get chopped up into multip=
le messages if the underlying MTU is small.
>>=20
>> If we change that paragraph to
>>=20
>>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
>>    An [RFC5444] implementation MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>    certain elements during message creation to reduce control message ove=
rhead.
>>   =20
>> and the language of, say,  7.1.3. RREQ Regeneration from
>>=20
>>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444]
>>    message (see Section 8) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
>>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
>>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>>=20
>> to something like
>>=20
>>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444]
>>    message (see Section 8), which is handed to the RFC5444 multiplexer
>>    for further processing.
>>    By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message to L=
L-MANET-
>>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
>>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>>=20
>> (and the same thing for 7.2.3. RREP Regeneration, 6.5. Message Transmissi=
on, etc.), would that resolve the issue?
>>=20
>>> =20
>>> This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft.=
 If it gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself and the re=
st of the author team.
>>> =20
>>> So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the multiplexer=
. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always better to have i=
t) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does.
>>=20
>> I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of the "=
RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", which is why I=
 thought the AODVv2<->RFC5444 interaction that should be described clearly w=
as the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation process what a mess=
age looks like (and where it should be sent). I've assumed that this is the p=
art where AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously it wouldn't mu=
lticast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wa=
sn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.
>>=20
>> I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should be clar=
ified in the 5444-usage draft...
>>=20
>> With kind regards,
>> Lotte Steenbrink
>>=20
>>> But unfortunately the draft still has material that contradicts that mod=
el, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs=
 of section 6.5. This is an essential change.
>>> =20
>>> --
>>>=20
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> Senior Principal Engineer
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>>> ________________________________________________________________________=
__
>>>=20
>>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Badd=
ow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>>> www.baesystems.com/ai
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> ********************************************************************
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>My position on this matter is by an la=
rge "what Chris said", fwiw.<br><br></div><div><div>Thomas</div><div id=3D"A=
ppleMailSignature"><br></div>On 08 Mar 2016, at 14:21, Christopher Dearlove &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><meta htt=
p-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div><span><=
/span></div><div><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; cha=
rset=3Dutf-8"><div>I'm reading this on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I=
 can read it better for longer comment.</div><div><br></div><div>But there a=
re, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, two things in 5444=
. One is about formats, one is about multiplexing.</div><div><br></div><div>=
Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as formats. Many pe=
ople (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general 5444 formatter/parser. T=
hat's up to the implementer to decide what to make it do, whether to optimis=
e in that formatter, outside the formatter, or not at all. (Personally I hav=
e some inside, some outside.)</div><div><br></div><div>The other component i=
s the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That takes 5444 formatted messag=
es (and &nbsp;possibly some other things) and forms 5444 packets. It is impo=
rtant that the 5444 multiplexer returns messages as delivered to it (hop cou=
nt and limit apart of course). Otherwise security features in the protocol m=
ay fail. Note that doesn't prevent the multiplexer modifying the message bef=
ore putting it on the wire, that just needs to be reversible. And obvious ex=
ample is if you implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it=
 adds them, it also needs to remove them before handing the message to the p=
rotocol. (You may instead put this in the protocol.)</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Yes, I think the usage document could gain from adding this. Note, that's p=
ersonal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to that yet. But largely because I=
 haven't asked them yet (with one partial exception).</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>The points I think are:</div><div>- Two things in 5444. Format and multip=
lex.</div><div>- Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Opt=
imisation optional.</div><div>- Multiplexer must deliver messages as sent (h=
op exception). But may modify reversibly. 7182 example (could implement mess=
age level in multiplexer, must implement packet level there).</div><div><br>=
--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.de=
arlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div><br><di=
v><br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chr=
istopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</di=
v><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.=
co.uk</a> (home)</div></div>On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-12=
52">Hello Christopher,<div><br><div><div>Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dear=
love, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D=
"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: norma=
l; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-h=
eight: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSecti=
on1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;">I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide com=
ments (which won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather tha=
n attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at the=
 earliest.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size=
: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=
=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif;">But one to kick off.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;">The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 create=
s messages, it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receive=
s messages from there. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s the m=
ost important.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-=
size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif;">The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresse=
s and so on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets (which m=
ay contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.<o:=
p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">There a=
re other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obviously which i=
nterface(s) this message is for, but also things like =E2=80=9Cplease try to=
 keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there are any additional requests=
 that should be supported, and are not incompatible with the architecture, t=
hen the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity to get those in.<o:p></o:p></=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">But, looking at t=
he AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a whole or part word) only a=
ppears twice, both in the paragraph:<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; fon=
t-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family:=
 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for=
 multiple protocols.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [RFC5444] multi=
plexer MAY choose to optimize the content of<o:p></o:p></span></div><div sty=
le=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-=
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">&nbsp;&=
nbsp; certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.<o:p></o:p=
></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0=
cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I think=
 that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the role of the (subtl=
ely different) 5444 message creation process from addresses and attributes. I=
 think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message from a protocol shouldn=
=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opin=
ion, though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort of speciali=
sed signature, and we can=E2=80=99t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The m=
ultiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove th=
em before the protocol gets the packet again.)</div></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div><div>True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please st=
op me if I don't), what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY b=
e reshuffled during message creation, but please pay attention that some thi=
ngs MUST be kept in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 message."=
 This is especially important for RERR messages, which could easily get chop=
ped up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is small.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>If we change that paragraph to</div><div><br></div><div><pre clas=
s=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;=
 page-break-before: always;">   [<a name=3D"ref-RFC5444" id=3D"ref-RFC5444">=
RFC5444</a>] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Genera=
lized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>=
] implementation MAY choose to optimize the content of
   certain elements during message creation to reduce control message overhe=
ad.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   </pre></div><div>and the l=
anguage of, say, &nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.1.3" href=3D"=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1.3" style=3D=
"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: black; text-dec=
oration: none;">7.1.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; fo=
nt-weight: bold;">.  RREQ Regeneration&nbsp;</span>from</div><div><br></div>=
<div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margi=
n-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message is used to=
 create a corresponding [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" tit=
le=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&=
quot;">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodv=
v2-13#section-8">Section 8</a>) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-=

   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>to s=
omething like</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-=
size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;"=
>   This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [<a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Netw=
ork (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodv=
v2-13#section-8">Section 8</a>), which is handed to the&nbsp;RFC5444 multipl=
exer</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; m=
argin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   for further processing.</p=
re><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-=
bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   By default, the multiplexer is i=
nstructed to multicast the message to LL-MANET-</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" s=
tyle=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-bef=
ore: always;">   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation. =
 However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>(and=
 the same thing for&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.2.3" href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2.3" style=
=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; color: black; text-=
decoration: none;">7.2.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt;=
 font-weight: bold;">.  RREP Regeneration</span>,&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink"=
 name=3D"section-6.5" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-a=
odvv2-13#section-6.5" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight=
: bold; color: black; text-decoration: none;">6.5</a><span style=3D"font-siz=
e: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;">.  Message Transmission,</span=
>&nbsp;etc.), would that resolve the issue?</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div cla=
ss=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">This is probably=
 something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. If it gets WGLCed a=
s requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself and the rest of the author tea=
m.<o:p></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; f=
ont-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margi=
n: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">So t=
here is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the multiplexer. That s=
houldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always better to have it) if yo=
u assume 5498 applies, as it does.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of=
 the "RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", which i=
s why I thought the AODVv2&lt;-&gt;RFC5444 interaction that should be descri=
bed clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation proces=
s what a message looks like (and where it should be sent). I've assumed that=
 this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously i=
t wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer t=
o do so. I wasn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should b=
e clarified in the 5444-usage draft...</div><div><br></div><div>With kind re=
gards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div la=
ng=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;=
 font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:=
 auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D"Wor=
dSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> But unfortunately t=
he draft still has material that contradicts that model, which needs to go. I=
n particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs of section 6.5. This is=
 an essential change.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; te=
xt-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal=
; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div cla=
ss=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0=
cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p></o:p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: C=
alibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"=
margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(=
0, 126, 126);">--<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b>=
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0=
, 126, 126);">Christopher Dearlove<br>Senior Principal Engineer<br>BAE Syste=
ms Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br></span></b><b><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);">_______________________=
___________________________________________________<br></span></b><span styl=
e=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);"=
><br></span><b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif=
; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; fon=
t-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);">: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245=
 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</spa=
n></b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purpl=
e; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: blue;">chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com</span></a><br></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-fami=
ly: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);"><br></span><span style=3D"fon=
t-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);">BAE S=
ystems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelm=
sford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br><a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"c=
olor: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, 139=
, 146);">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D=
"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif=
;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb=
(58, 139, 146);">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>Registered in E=
ngland &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; colo=
r: rgb(58, 139, 146);">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, S=
urrey, GU2 7YP<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; f=
ont-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></=
div><p>********************************************************************<=
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 review, part 1
Thread-Index: AQHReV/x9e0CALQBI0Wbf/j3UK/82A==
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:28:34 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17 review, part 1
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Hi Chris, All,=0A=
=0A=
I shall attempt to comment on Chris' comments (in each of his following =0A=
emails).  My apologies for being so late in replying in full, I believe =0A=
we have actually taken a lot of your points on board already but you =0A=
deserve a full response.=0A=
=0A=
Unfortunately DLEP has moved on 2 drafts since this review, and draft-20 =
=0A=
is in the pipe, so many comments no longer apply.=0A=
=0A=
Responses inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 02/12/15 10:43, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> I=92m calling this part 1, as I hope to get time to review the rest. But=
=0A=
> as I=92m not sure when, I=92ll give you what I=92ve got up to and includi=
ng=0A=
> Section 4. Of course I might want to revisit after reading rest of draft.=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1. I think 802.11 should at the least be qualified with IEEE on=
=0A=
> first use. On balance I think not referencing it is OK, but I did think=
=0A=
> about that.=0A=
=0A=
We have added 'IEEE' but not referenced it.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1, paragraph 2. The issue with an event driven paradigm is=0A=
> message loss. Here of course you plan no message loss by having a=0A=
> reliable modem-router link. But that (a) isn=92t indicated here, and (b)=
=0A=
> this appears to be discussing what happens within the network, where=0A=
> message loss is a real issue. So I think this wording could be improved.=
=0A=
=0A=
Hmmm... we are still talking in very general terms at this point and =0A=
have yet to introduce DLEP, so I beg to differ.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1, reference to DAMA. This I think needs a reference at least.=0A=
> It sort of jars a bit, but may be important (not clear).=0A=
=0A=
This is one for Stan really.  Is DAMA an actual standard that we can =0A=
reference or just a general catch-all term?=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1, top of page 6, I think it would be appropriate to indicate=0A=
> that DLEP is designed to handle ranges of values that cover all=0A=
> realistic cases. (At least somewhere in the introductory part, not=0A=
> necessarily here.)=0A=
=0A=
We have tried to avoid DLEP specifics in the introduction, trying to =0A=
describe the problem space and where DLEP can (or cannot) help, so I'm =0A=
not sure.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> I found Figure 2 and text around it confusing. I think what we have is=0A=
> two modems of type A =96 just saying modem A usually means the modem name=
d=0A=
> A, and two of them? But insert type (assuming that=92s what=92s meant) in=
=0A=
> appropriate places and it gets clearer.=0A=
=0A=
We now explicitly use 'Type A' etc=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1.1, first paragraph. I think data item is usually Data Item. (I=
=0A=
> haven=92t gone through and checked consistency in general =96 not even wh=
ere=0A=
> I=92m up to =96 this just stood out.)=0A=
=0A=
Fixed in later drafts.  We now capitalize the following: Data Item, =0A=
Message, Signal, where they have special meaning in DLEP.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1.1, second paragraph, =93based on a heartbeat=94. Strictly it=0A=
> doesn=92t time out based on a heartbeat, it times out unless maintained b=
y=0A=
> a message, possibly a heartbeat, i.e. may time out based on absence of a=
=0A=
> heartbeat (or other message).=0A=
=0A=
Reworded=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1.1. paragraph 3 =93a specific, addressable location (e.g. an=0A=
> address)=94. What other possibilities are there other than an address?=0A=
> This also equates an addressable location and an address, which is=0A=
> confusing. Probably just delete the parenthesis.=0A=
=0A=
Deleted=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1.1 says a destination may be physical or logical. I think this=
=0A=
> should start a paragraph, or here be a paragraph on its own. Then the=0A=
> next paragraph says what a physical destination is, good. But the next=0A=
> paragraph starts with multicast, and only some way into the paragraph do=
=0A=
> we discover we=92re now talking about logical destinations. That should b=
e=0A=
> how the paragraph starts.=0A=
=0A=
The whole Logical/Physical Destination discussion has now been moved to =0A=
later in the section where it hopefully reads better=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1.1 says that algorithms used in multicast are up to the=0A=
> implementation. But I think (and maybe this is done later when specific=
=0A=
> metrics are introduced) the implementer needs to know what a metric is=0A=
> meant to mean, in particular in the multicast case. For example is=0A=
> latency related to worst case or average group member?=0A=
=0A=
We haven't explicitly suggested algorithms either here or elsewhere as =0A=
we feel that is a can of worms too big to open.  But, we have (later) =0A=
better defined the metrics.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 1.1 final paragraph, =93(e.g. multicast)=94. Are there any other=
=0A=
> logical examples?=0A=
=0A=
Deleted=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 2, security is said to be handled by transport. I know there=92s=
=0A=
> been some discussion of this, but for these comments I=92ll take the draf=
t=0A=
> as written. The example is TLS, which is applicable to TCP. But some=0A=
> DLEP messages are UDP, what=92s the security mechanism there? (I=92ve yet=
 to=0A=
> understand how critical the UDP messages are.)=0A=
=0A=
Security has been completely rewritten since draft-17.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 3, first paragraph should =93with=94 be =94by=94, before =93a =91=
best effort=92=94?=0A=
=0A=
Now 'by'=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 3, penultimate paragraph, from the outside the need to tear down=
=0A=
> a session and re-establish it in order to add new information seems=0A=
> wasteful. Though a simpler protocol of course. Is this expected to be rar=
e?=0A=
=0A=
It is expected to be rare and is intentionally harsh to keep the =0A=
protocol simple.  Anecdotally I have heard no grumbling from =0A=
implementers on this restriction - most modems have a set of metrics =0A=
they support that never changes.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4. A key issue throughout this, but not clearly indicated up=0A=
> front, is that DLEP is designed for a reliable link between modem and=0A=
> router. (I=92m not yet sure how reliable the UDP messages need to be.)=0A=
=0A=
The UDP messages are not required to be especially reliably delivered, =0A=
hence the get-out of using a priori config if UDP packets are getting =0A=
lost.  We didn't feel this need specific calling out.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4, paragraph 1. This discusses DLEP states in terms that cover=0A=
> both modem and radio. In practice each must run its own state machine.=0A=
> With reliable messages with short responses, those states should be=0A=
> corresponding, except short transients. But it=92s also said later that=
=0A=
> there can be significant delays (but do those apply to state-changing=0A=
> messages?) At the least I think this should be indicated.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
This section has been reworked to add clarity.  The significant delays =0A=
are not to state changing messages.=0A=
=0A=
> Section 4, paragraph 2, =93as well as=94 should this be e.g. =93instead o=
f=94?=0A=
=0A=
This has boiled off in the edits=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4, paragraph 3. Why should the EUI format match that between the=
=0A=
> modem and the radio. Why should DLEP =96 which should be running over a=
=0A=
> layer 4 connection between the two - know, even less care, what layer 2=
=0A=
> addressing is being used on that modem-router link?=0A=
=0A=
This section has moved to the MAC Address data item.  The routers MAC is =
=0A=
the Destination MAC other peers see, this is detailed in draft-20.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4 paragraphs 4 and 6, I think could be clearer that the pair of=
=0A=
> messages is one each.=0A=
=0A=
The rules have been edited and moved to add clarity.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4, paragraph 5 (this may be answered later). Can  the receiver=0A=
> of a Destination Up message (modem or router?) become re-interested=0A=
> after becoming uninterested?=0A=
=0A=
Yes - see Destination Announce=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4.1. I spot a military influence in =93one (1)=94. But here I don=
=92t=0A=
> think needed.=0A=
=0A=
I quite like it... anyone else have an opinion?=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 4.1 raised questions in my mind about timeouts and lack thereof=
=0A=
> =96 especially as there=92s an earlier reference (about heartbeats) to=0A=
> timeouts. This is just to say note that the reader may have questions=0A=
> here. Is it worth avoiding them?=0A=
=0A=
We have heavily reworked timeouts in draft-20.=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail!=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Tue Mar  8 09:46:19 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 review, part 2
Thread-Index: AQHReWJP/LSuzUGYsU6Abakx1kvZkQ==
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:45:31 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17 review, part 2
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More comments to Chris' review inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 02/12/15 15:45, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> Just section 5 this time.=0A=
>=0A=
> First paragraph. Peer is a new term, and not explained. Here it means=0A=
> modem or router. But later when implementation is being used for modem=0A=
> or router (and I don=92t like that usage, for me implementation is about =
a=0A=
> specific realisation of the protocol) peer is being used for the other=0A=
> device (modem/router when this device =96 the implementation =96 is=0A=
> router/modem). I think some work on this terminology is needed.=0A=
=0A=
We have reworked this language into 'DLEP participant' and 'DLEP peer' =0A=
using the later when discussing message sending to the other end of a =0A=
session, and the former as a more general term.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5 before section 5.1 (what I often find convenient to call=0A=
> section 5.0) last paragraph, these are, I think, TCP ports. (I don=92t=0A=
> think used for UDP, but should be indicated.) It=92s not clear why we=0A=
> might want multiple ports.=0A=
=0A=
We now say TCP=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.0, final paragraph, the address/port combination should be=0A=
> (say that it is) one the modem can be reached and received on.=0A=
=0A=
This sentence has gone in the latest draft=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.1. Why unused port? Why not the DLEP port? At least as an=0A=
> option. And RFC 6335 calls these (49152+) =93Dynamic Ports, also known as=
=0A=
> the Private or Ephemeral Ports=94 not unused ports.=0A=
=0A=
We have simplified this restriction to say 'unused port' - this is =0A=
common with most TCP client connections.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> I know there=92s discussion over IPv6 and IPv4 and broadcast addresses, s=
o=0A=
> I=92ll not comment further. Except to say as written I think it says not=
=0A=
> only that IPv6 must be implemented, but that you must send IPv6 in all=0A=
> cases.=0A=
=0A=
This has been reworded.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.1 second paragraph. This waiting and resending is not the=0A=
> transaction model described in Section 4.1. I=92m guessing that=92s becau=
se=0A=
> the latter is only intended in the TCP states. But this should be clearer=
.=0A=
=0A=
The transaction model has moved after this section, and so it should be =0A=
clearer now.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Apart from previous comment on =93three (3)=94 style, I think that it wou=
ld=0A=
> be better if named parameters were used, with later recommended values.=
=0A=
> And if there are several values, useful to know if in a fixed (or=0A=
> recommended) relationship. (Yes, there are some relationships given that=
=0A=
> way e.g. two times heartbeat.) But this is a style question, not a=0A=
> =93right or wrong=94 thing.=0A=
=0A=
I really tried this, but it just looked horrid.  Having recently =0A=
rewritten the heartbeats text, I could be convinced to revisit...=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Not sure why jitter is recommended.=0A=
=0A=
It isn't any more.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.1 first full paragraph on page 13. Why might more than one=0A=
> address/port combination be used. (I=92m actually not quite sure why more=
=0A=
> than one might be offered, but perhaps it=92s that the unused port might=
=0A=
> not be unused in some cases.)=0A=
=0A=
This text has gone.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Same paragraph, should origin address be source address?=0A=
=0A=
Yes - fixed.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.1, penultimate paragraph. It=92s not clear why these signals=0A=
> might still want to be sent, what the purpose or value is.=0A=
=0A=
The counter argument is why MUST they stop?=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.1 final paragraph. Is this then saying must start the router=0A=
> in Session Initialisation State?=0A=
=0A=
Yes, badly, hence we have rewritten.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.2, second paragraph. Parsing is here introduced, but not=0A=
> discussed for previous signals. That I think is one of those things that=
=0A=
> makes you stop and wonder why. Is it clearer to have a blanket comment=0A=
> about parsing somewhere, and elsewhere just stick to received?=0A=
=0A=
Parsing has been almost universally purged.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.3, second paragraph. Not particularly keen on lists that are=0A=
> i.e. (RFC Editor will demand a following comma btw) and finished etc.,=0A=
> but it=92s not actually wrong.=0A=
=0A=
i.e. has gone (the paragraph has moved in draft-20)=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.3 (or 5.3.0 to be clear) final paragraph. And the peer? (As=0A=
> terminology used here, but see earlier comment.)=0A=
=0A=
Does the same as it's following the same rules.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.3.1 first two paragraphs have a MAY a MUST and a SHOULD. I can=
=0A=
> only make these even consistent by assuming that the latter two are=0A=
> MUST/SHOULD in the case where the MAY is so, otherwise not. This could=0A=
> be clearer. (Also worth considering if it=92s a good mix.)=0A=
=0A=
Less SHOULDs, more MUSTs now.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.4 Odd mixture of heartbeat time lengths and seconds.=0A=
=0A=
Gone in draft-20=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.4 pre-penultimate paragraph, Destination Down messages MUST=0A=
> NOT be sent. Why that specific case (only)?=0A=
=0A=
Because they are not required when the session is closing and they get =0A=
in the way.=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Tue Mar  8 09:54:16 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 comments, part 3
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:53:50 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17 comments, part 3
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More comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 03/12/15 16:18, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> A quick one, just sections 6 and 7.=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 6, first line. I wouldn=92t write this (WG etc.) but that=92s a=
=0A=
> style issue.=0A=
=0A=
You're right, it's pretty fluffy language, but we're happy with it. It's =
=0A=
now moved up to the introduction where the less formal text lives.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 6, first paragraph, additional rules of behaviour. Those are=0A=
> tricky. New rules because of new messages, OK. But new rules in existing=
=0A=
> situations, that=92s a compatibility issue. I would suggest making it=0A=
> clear that=92s not intended. (You can=92t actually ban it, because an upd=
ate=0A=
> could remove the ban =85)=0A=
=0A=
This has been reworded to avoid this issue.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 6, third paragraph. Not Reserved, that has a different meaning.=
=0A=
> See RFC 5226. All uses of Reserved in the document need review accordingl=
y.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
Have done - we now use RFC 5226 wording as applicable=0A=
=0A=
> Section 7, line one. The specificity of thousands makes me want to ask=0A=
> for details.=0A=
=0A=
I suggest asking Stan, that's his text...=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 7, line 4, is this an RFC 2119 RECOMMENDED?=0A=
=0A=
It is now.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 7. This one paragraph covers two topics, which should be=0A=
> different paragraphs. The first is having lots of destinations. The=0A=
> second is managing each destination so as to not produce excessive data.=
=0A=
> (Actually, there=92s really a third, flapping isn=92t a DLEP problem, it=
=92s a=0A=
> use by the router of the data problem.) Only the first of these is=0A=
> scalability, the second is a different efficiency issue.=0A=
=0A=
Split into 2 paragraphs.=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail...=0A=


From nobody Tue Mar  8 09:57:23 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 review, part 4
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Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:56:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17 review, part 4
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Continuing my reply to Chris' comments....=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On 03/12/15 16:37, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> I=92m now going to be non-sequential. I will get back to sections 8 to 10=
,=0A=
> but here will consider Sections 11, 12 and references.=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 11. The main issue is that using TLS only helps with the TCP=0A=
> messages, it doesn=92t help with the UDP ones. If I read correctly, an=0A=
> unauthenticated UDP message could send a modem off to the wrong address=
=0A=
> and port, so it ignores the correct one.=0A=
>=0A=
> The denial of service mitigation creates its own denial of service=0A=
> opportunity. If you maintain a database of peers that fail=0A=
> initialisation, then create fake traffic apparently from the real peer=0A=
> in order to get the real peer on the blacklist.=0A=
>=0A=
> There=92s no discussion of confidentiality. Yes, TLS can manage that, but=
=0A=
> that still needs to be said. And still the UDP problem. (Does=0A=
> confidentiality matter? I can think of cases it might.)=0A=
>=0A=
> There=92s no discussion of key management. Again that=92s down to TLS (bu=
t=0A=
> what about UDP as usual?) but probably needs saying. Are you expecting=0A=
> to pre-share keys or negotiate? If latter do we consider MitM as an issue=
?=0A=
>=0A=
> That security is only considered for multi-hop still leaves=0A=
> possibilities of injection of false messages (if, say, that one hop is=0A=
> an Ethernet bus) and confidentiality. These you may think are=0A=
> acceptable, but need to say so.=0A=
>=0A=
> (In short, I=92m expecting this section not to pass. I may be wrong, but=
=0A=
> that=92s my guess.)=0A=
=0A=
There has been extensive discussion over security since this review =0A=
which we have taken on board.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 12=0A=
>=0A=
> Biggest problem here is that this is not self-contained. That=92s not the=
=0A=
> first time I=92ve said that. I=92ve had IANA unhappy with things=0A=
> significantly more picky than that Table 1 is off elsewhere. Again, I=0A=
> can only base on my experience, but I believe you need a fully=0A=
> self-contained section. References from outside into it, OK. So tables=0A=
> need moving here or duplicating. And Reserved is misused in this section=
=0A=
> (see previous part, and I think I=92ve said this before).=0A=
>=0A=
> Because of this, I=92m not going to attempt to review details in this=0A=
> section, that will have to be in another draft. You will need policies=0A=
> for adding new entries.=0A=
=0A=
We have revisited the IANA text, but the tables are still out of the =0A=
section.  It is a really quick edit to move them, so we are willing to =0A=
wait until IANA tells us where they want them.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> References=0A=
>=0A=
> I think I forgot to say this in my last part, but I=92m still in favour o=
f=0A=
> making [CREDIT] non-normative and not coupling the fate/delay of this=0A=
> document to that.=0A=
>=0A=
> You will probably need RFC 5226 once the IANA section is revised.=0A=
=0A=
Added.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> It=92s possible (see comments on part 1) that other informative reference=
s=0A=
> might help.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
Many have been added.=0A=
=0A=
And on to part 5...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Tue Mar  8 10:23:56 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 comments, part 5
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17 comments, part 5
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On 04/12/15 12:33, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> This is Sections 8 and 9. Still to go, Section 10 and appendices.=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8. At this point I wondered if the signal/message separation=0A=
> (which I haven=92t respected in all my previous comments) was properly=0A=
> foreshadowed. And it isn=92t. Section 4 uses both in its subject line, bu=
t=0A=
> then never describes the difference. Consider this a comment on section=
=0A=
> 4 I missed earlier.=0A=
=0A=
Signals and Messages have been split properly in draft-20.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.0 penultimate paragraph, should this be more clearly the=0A=
> acceptability of duplicate data items?=0A=
=0A=
Yes, fixed.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.1 I=92m not familiar with the U+44 syntax (for UTC-8 I assume).=
=0A=
> Is it well-known to be hex?=0A=
=0A=
Yes, and should be 4 digit.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.1 Length. Part of, rather than associated with.=0A=
=0A=
'contained in' is described as the correct terminology earlier and is =0A=
now used.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.1 and elsewhere use SHALL for length restrictions. I know 2119=
=0A=
> equates SHALL and MUST, but everywhere else is MUST, is there a reason=0A=
> for SHALL here?=0A=
=0A=
Now says MUST=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.1 (and I think also for messages) says one or more data items.=
=0A=
> That must be zero or more, there are several cases where zero is=0A=
> permitted, and at least one where it is required (heartbeat).=0A=
=0A=
Now says 'zero or more'=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.1 in the list of reasons to reject, a missing required data=0A=
> item isn=92t listed, and as well as an unrecognised data item, should hav=
e=0A=
> not appropriate to this signal. (And the same is probably said again for=
=0A=
> messages =96 the duplication makes me wonder if the separation loses more=
=0A=
> than it gains.)=0A=
=0A=
This has been rewritten and expanded to clarify in draft-20=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.2, similar comments to Section 8.1.=0A=
=0A=
See above=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 8.3, Length. value should probably be Value. And the term header=
=0A=
> hasn=92t been defined for a data item.=0A=
=0A=
Fixed by rewording=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> I would prefer a separation of the signal/message/data item syntax from=
=0A=
> the behaviour. Admittedly there are a couple of corner cases (how to=0A=
> handle a missing Status =96 though that itself is a bit ugly). But for=0A=
> example section 9.5 (probably the worst case) starts with behaviour, has=
=0A=
> an aside (which I=92ll come back to), then more behaviour, then syntax,=
=0A=
> then some behaviour again.=0A=
=0A=
The major change for draft-20 is to do this.  We now have 'introduction' =
=0A=
'construction' 'usage' fairly consistently.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Yes, that would be significant work to restructure, and it=92s not my cal=
l=0A=
> to say it should be done. But it would (in my opinion) make for a better=
=0A=
> document.=0A=
=0A=
It was, and it has!=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.0 paragraph 1, last line, is =93this header=94 (singular) corre=
ct?=0A=
=0A=
This paragraph has gone, it was confusing.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.0 second paragraph =93Following is=94 is wording I=92d make a g=
uess=0A=
> the RFC Editor will change if still there. (Based on the last few RFC=0A=
> Editor responses I=92ve had, they are changing quite a bit of wordings=0A=
> they don=92t like, more than they used to.)=0A=
=0A=
Hmm... don't know what else to put there, we await suggestions.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Table 1. Apart from the IANA issue I raised in last part of my comments,=
=0A=
> why do signal and message types share a single space?=0A=
=0A=
They don't in draft-20=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Table 1, previously noted Reserved is incorrect usage (17+)=0A=
=0A=
Yes, fixed.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.1 At this point with SHOULD, I=92m left asking what if not? Tha=
t=0A=
> I assume is because of the preconfiguration option discussed in an=0A=
> earlier section. But doesn=92t say so, and is part of the it would be=0A=
> clearer to separate data from process.=0A=
=0A=
This remains, but hopefully the other fixes makes it acceptable now?=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.1 MAY implement own heuristics. This I think goes all the way=
=0A=
> to MUST, not even SHOULD. OK, possibly the heuristic is =93don=92t bother=
=94,=0A=
> but you still need to decide that and decide it=92s acceptable.=0A=
=0A=
It's a MUST now.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.2 . Later lists use an =93each of the following data items=94 e=
ven=0A=
> when singular. I have no idea whether the RFC Editor will accept that.=0A=
> But here before the first list singular is used, and the second list=0A=
> uses =93any=94 rather than =93each=94.=0A=
=0A=
Singulars have been rewritten.  I'm not sure what the right way to go =0A=
with the 'each'/'any' issue.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.2 the discussion of ports in the IP connection (or well-known=
=0A=
> if none) is this consistent with the use of the (not strictly correctly=
=0A=
> named) unused port in earlier sections? I haven=92t worked this through.=
=0A=
=0A=
Yes I believe so.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.3 last line on page 22 =93the=94 before =93Session=94 (I happen=
ed to=0A=
> notice this one).=0A=
=0A=
Good catch!=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.3 first line on page 23. =93should=94 probably should be SHOULD=
,=0A=
> except I think it actually should be MUST (see above, where it=92s MAY, s=
o=0A=
> inconsistent in any case).=0A=
=0A=
It's a MUST now.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.5. The whole concept of router signalling modem should be=0A=
> brought out earlier in the document. The paragraph starting =93Concerning=
=0A=
> layer 3 addresses=94 is a particularly jarring one in the mixture of=0A=
> protocol and data.=0A=
=0A=
This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but this paragraph remains. =0A=
  Can you revisit?=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.5 (and elsewhere) information base. I don=92t think this is=0A=
> discussed in the introduction. While a mandatory information base format=
=0A=
> may not be right, a discussion of what data is collected =96 and what=0A=
> needs to be persistent (such as list of extensions being used) I think=0A=
> would be appropriate.=0A=
=0A=
We haven't gone the whole way to define an Information Base, but the =0A=
re-ordering in draft-20 might make it clearer.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.5 (and elsewhere) when indicating IPb4/IPv6 addresses =93one or=
=0A=
> more of the following=94 is not clear, suggest =93one or more of each of =
the=0A=
> following=94 (which fits other pattern).=0A=
=0A=
Fixed.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.7. This is one case of non-success defauilt Status. But here=0A=
> in particular, no reference to where that status is found.=0A=
=0A=
This has been reworked in draft-20.  Status codes now have a proper section=
.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.14. paragraph three =93Great care =85 =93 Is a 2119 MUST approp=
riate=0A=
> here? I=92m not sure this sentence helps the implementer. Why? How?=0A=
=0A=
Great care is no longer necessary.  Heartbeats are mandatory in draft-20.=
=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.15 paragraph 2 =93what is=94 I=92d delete the =93what=94. Not s=
ure about=0A=
> capitalised ONLY. And =93partner=94 is a new term that shouldn=92t be use=
d.=0A=
=0A=
What has gone, and so has the MAC address only Link C Request (in -20)=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 9.16 Table 3 is here referenced. Apart from the IANA issue,=0A=
> there=92s also no indication where that is.=0A=
=0A=
Hmmm... hyperlinking has gone awry.=0A=
=0A=
And on to part 6...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Tue Mar  8 10:29:56 2016
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Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-20.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

        Title           : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP)
        Authors         : Stan Ratliff
                          Bo Berry
                          Cisco Systems
                          Darryl Satterwhite
                          Rick Taylor
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-20.txt
	Pages           : 62
	Date            : 2016-03-08

Abstract:
   When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over
   wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the
   characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make
   routing decisions.  In mobile or other environments where these
   characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the
   inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not
   allow the router to make the best decisions.  A bidirectional, event-
   driven communication channel between the router and the modem is
   necessary.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

        Title           : Credit Windowing extension for DLEP
        Author          : Stan Ratliff
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2016-03-08

Abstract:
   This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to provide a
   credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for destination-
   specific flow control.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
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Subject: [manet] DLEP and DLEP Credit Window drafts
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--089e0129483a6e3cc2052d8ddc00
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hello Working Group participants,

DLEP version 20, and DLEP Credit Window version 02 have been submitted.

These drafts address review comments received during last call.

Regards,
Stan

--089e0129483a6e3cc2052d8ddc00
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello Working Group participants,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div=
>DLEP version 20, and DLEP Credit Window version 02 have been submitted.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>These drafts address review comments received during=
 last call.</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div></div>

--089e0129483a6e3cc2052d8ddc00--


From nobody Tue Mar  8 10:45:19 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 comments, part 6
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Comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 07/12/15 12:27, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> Section 10 (just appendices to go).=0A=
>=0A=
> Many comments made about a section apply to other sections. I have not=0A=
> attempted to work out all of these.=0A=
>=0A=
> Table 2, usual IANA comments, including use of Reserved (not for 0).=0A=
=0A=
Noted.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.1, first line. =93MAY appear=94 reads like a non-2119 use of m=
ay.=0A=
> But some later sections have MUST. So really I think this is =93MAY be=0A=
> included in=94. But leaves unspecified what if included elsewhere.=0A=
=0A=
This paragraph has gone=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.1 first paragraph on page 35, not sure about use of=0A=
> =93implementation=94. i.e. should be e.g. (line 3).=0A=
=0A=
Fixed.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Text description, should you check for unprintable if receiving but not=
=0A=
> using? And what if there are any unprintable characters? Not assuming=0A=
> NUL terminated, I think really this is stronger, it should not be.=0A=
=0A=
The SHOULD is there, because if you aren't using why bother checking. =0A=
The MUST NOT is to prevent a really obvious buffer overrun bug in =0A=
implementations=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10., what if receive a success or continue in response to=0A=
> Session Termination?=0A=
=0A=
Session Termination Response has no status code in draft-20=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Table 3, IANA. Odd use of a decimal range (100+) in a binary field. I=92d=
=0A=
> suggest 128+.=0A=
=0A=
I wanted to but others objected.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.2 second paragraph is an example of how this section mixes=0A=
> format and usage. As I=92ve indicated before, I think it would be clearer=
=0A=
> separated. (Usage as in malformed is OK, that=92s part of syntax.)=0A=
=0A=
This has been reworked and moved around in draft-20=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.2, MBZ. I=92m not sure about reserved here. Strictly that=92s =
not=0A=
> how used in 5226, but on the other hand I think in this kind of case its=
=0A=
> common (I think I=92ve done it myself).=0A=
=0A=
I copied from BGP (I think) - but its been fixed.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delete MAY, that=92s what zero=0A=
> means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs to be elsewhere, and in any=
=0A=
> case it=92s overruled by RECOMMENDED i.e. SHOULD two lines down.)=0A=
=0A=
Sorry, where?=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.6, last line, extensions registry, reference. Note that IANA=
=0A=
> will want this specified if it is a registry, even if empty.=0A=
=0A=
It is now defined.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.10 (and 10.11). Prefix range should be 0 to 32 (or 128). The=
=0A=
> =93subnet=94 0.0.0.0/0 is sometimes useful (especially in a MANET or othe=
r=0A=
> edge network) to say =93the (rest of) the Internet is over here=94.=0A=
=0A=
Fixed=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.12 You can get some really insane values in the maximum data=
=0A=
> rate (and elsewhere). Of course what=92s insane on an HF link is rather=
=0A=
> slow on a UHF link, so not suggesting any specific thing. But is it=0A=
> worth saying you MAY reject if this indicates a figure known to be wrong?=
=0A=
=0A=
Hmm... we don't want to get into defining 'wrong' here.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.14, what if current > maximum?=0A=
=0A=
Fixed - MUST NOT=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.16, latency being implementation dependent without any hint=0A=
> what latency means is hard to compare different radios. Which layers are=
=0A=
> included? Mean or worst case? What about jitter?=0A=
=0A=
We just don't go there.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.17. This seems the sort of data item there could be more than=
=0A=
> one of. (Actually, I=92ve missed any example that=92s allowed more than o=
ne=0A=
> of, though earlier discussion allows it.) But if so, there would have to=
=0A=
> be more than one kind of resource (which there could be) with a code =96=
=0A=
> even if all codes are private.=0A=
=0A=
Resources have been reworded in draft-20.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 10.17 (and elsewhere). If it can=92t be calculated it SHOULD NOT=
=0A=
> be issued. Seems more like a MUST NOT to me.=0A=
=0A=
Fixed to MUST NOT.=0A=
=0A=
And finally to part 7!=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Tue Mar  8 10:55:08 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17 commants part 7 (and last)
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17 commants part 7 (and last)
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On 07/12/15 14:49, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
> Appendices=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix A. What is the alternative if starting with an assumed=0A=
> address/port?=0A=
=0A=
The next section - Session Initialization=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix A Peer Discovery. I wasn=92t initially clear on why the first=0A=
> Peer Discovery arrow had a different termination. No explicit comment on=
=0A=
> right as to PD not received.=0A=
=0A=
Yes, but that kind of text makes the diagram unwieldy.  This isn't =0A=
normative so I won't included it.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix A has the MAY stop in an odd place after Peer Offer received. I=
=0A=
> can=92t see how to produce a really nice flow without three PDs. (First=
=0A=
> says sent, second says may send again, may give up, but not doing so=0A=
> here, third is received, produces offer. Maybe someone can do better=0A=
> than me.)=0A=
=0A=
Suggestions gratefully received!=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix B.1, TCP connect and then what? TCP acknowledgement at least?=0A=
=0A=
Yes, meant to be TCP connection established=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix B.2, is TCP close discussed in report? (is it just assumed?)=0A=
=0A=
It is.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendices B.1/B.2 TCP connect starts at single bar to no bar, TCP close=
=0A=
> is from double bar to double bar. Notation seems inconsistent. (And=0A=
> elsewhere double bar is used for failure.)=0A=
=0A=
I have changed message failure to --->X=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix B.5. Will the modem send a Session Termination Response after=0A=
> receiving a TCP shutdown?=0A=
=0A=
Yes, it's the dreaded TCP half-close.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix B.8 (and elsewhere) =93as above=94. Reference.=0A=
=0A=
Removed as above.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> Appendix C.1 shows we have both Destination Up and Destination Update.=0A=
> Could be confusing (especially if abbreviating).=0A=
=0A=
I think this is unavoidable.=0A=
=0A=
Thank you for the extensive review Chris.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


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Hello Justin,
thank you very much for your thorough and helpful review. We've adopted =
most of your editorial changes and are currently mulling over the larger =
ones.
Some questions & comments for clarification:

=46rom  2. Terminology:
------------------------------------

   Local Route
      An entry in the Local Route Set. (Local Route Set should have an =
entry, something simple and pointing to the section JWD)
(Later in the document LocalRoute is used pick one JWD)

LocalRoutes are not the same as the Local Route set, as they're actually =
entries of the Set, which is explained in section 4.5.  Local Route Set. =
Since LocalRoute is used before its explanation (in the     RERR (Route =
Error) definition of section 2), I can see how this is confusing. If my =
co-authors don't protest, I guess we can just eliminate that mention by =
changing "a valid LocalRoute" to "a valid route". Would that resolve =
this issue?

=46rom  3.  Applicability Statement:
--------------------------------------------------

 (This should go in the intro JWD)

Which paragraph(s) are you referring to here?

=46rom  4.5.  Local Route Set:
------------------------------------------

	(I=92m assuming this is here to hint at the possibility of a =
unified router with multiple routing protocols playing nicely together =
JWD)

Yup. Should we be more explicit there?

	(I noticed that Unconfirmed is the only state that uses Route =
Request message instead of route message, is that intended?  Can =
unconfirmed route state only be reached through Route Request messages? =
JWD)

Yes. Until a route learned through a RREQ is validated by a =
RREP/RREP_Ack exchange, it is marked as unconfirmed (so that it can't =
erroneously be used until we know it is useful)


	(this seems like an entry that would always be full 1s on a =
route request if true that should be stated to make things more clear =
JWD)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, I'm assuming that =
prefixlength =3D=3D address length with RREQs?


=46rom 4.6.  Multicast Route Message Table:
---------------------------------------------------------------

	(would this ever be in a RREQ? If no then I suggest using words =
similar to =93if RteMsg is an RREP JWD)
=20
It would. RREQs can include the last known sequence number associated =
with TargSeqNum. see 7.1.1.  RREQ Generation:

   6.  For TargSeqNum:

       *  If an Invalid route exists in the Local Route Set matching
          TargAddr using longest prefix matching and has a valid
          sequence number, set TargSeqNum :=3D LocalRoute.SeqNum.

=46rom 5.  Metrics:
-----------------------

	AODVv2 enables the use of multiple metric types.  Each route
	discovery attempt indicates the metric type which is requested =
for
	the route.  Only one metric type may be used in each route =
discovery
	attempt.   (Already said this no need to say it again. JWD)

I don't quite understand this one=96 with the exception of =93Only one =
metric type may be used in each route discovery attempt=94, yes,
the rest of the information in this paragraph may be puzzled together =
using bits and pieces spread across the document=96 but previous =
criticism
(also from me) has been that this is very confusing, tiresome and =
error-prone... Or did I misunderstand your comment here?

=46rom 6.1.  Initialization:
-------------------------------

	Until MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME after its sequence number is reset, =
the
	router SHOULD NOT create RREQ or RREP messages.
	(Just to be clear one MUST wait 5 mins before starting to =
request any route without a persistent store of the seq num, yes? JWD)

Yes... That mini paragraph is a bit redundant & contradictory, isn't it? =
I've taken it out and the "must" in "must wait for MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME =
before it creates any messages" was changed to a MUST.

=46rom 6.2.  Next Hop Monitoring:
------------------------------------------

	(I can=92t see how the above would be helpful at all JWD)

I'm assuming that "the above" refers to the text you've deleted, not the =
general idea of leveraging external mechanisms to monitor connectivity, =
correct?

=46rom 6.6.  Route Discovery, Retries and Buffering:
------------------------------------------------------------------

	(is there some table that lists routes that are being waited on? =
JWD)

Currently not, we're reshuffling things in order to make it more clear =
how to do all of that.

=46rom 6.7.  Processing Received Route Information
--------------------------------------------------------

	(MAY not MUST? Why wouldn=92t one update it according to section =
6.7.2? JWD)

No idea. This is a MUST now.
=20

=46rom 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route Information:
--------------------------------------------------------

	(does processing stop here?  It seems like it hsould be that =
isn=92t stated. JWD)

It does, in both instances. Since the if statements following those =
paragraphs wouldn't match, there are nor no further processing =
instructions for the loop-causing AdvRte, essentially terminating the =
processing procedure. This pattern is employed in different places =
across the document; if that's desired by the WG I can add "Stop =
processing AdvRte" or something similar.


=46rom 6.7.2.  Applying Route Updates:
--------------------------------------------------

	(we seem to be missing when the Route Information Base should be =
updated based on the new Local Route Set.  JWD)

4.5.  Local Route Set says:

   When the Local Route State is stored separately from the Routing
   Information Base, routes are added to the Routing Information Base
   when LocalRoute.State is valid (set to Active or Idle), and removed
   from the Routing Information Base LocalRoute.State becomes Invalid.

To me, the connection to the RIB is more of an issue connected to the =
general architecture of the Local Route Set rather than the nitty gritty =
of detailed update instructions, so I think that section 4.5 is the =
right place for this information...

=46rom 6.9.1.  Local Route State Changes:
------------------------------------------------------

	(it=92s not clear to me how the RERR=92s are identified consider =
rewording to make it more clear. JWD)

I'm not quite sure what' s unclear here=96 would something like=20

   o  If a Route Error (RERR) message reporting the route as broken is =
received,
      either from LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a Router
      Client address, LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to
      Invalid.

improve things?

	(Shouldn=92t they also be removed from the Route Information =
Base? JWD)

No=96 Unconfirmed routes can't be used for forwarding, and therefore =
shouldn't be in the RIB in the first place.

7.1.1.  RREQ Generation:
----------------------------------

	(perhaps I=92m missing a table or something but I don=92t =
remember any RREQ table or list being described which i can check if a =
RREQ has been recently sent with associated timers. If there is such a =
table then it should be mentioned here. If there isn=92t aon there =
should be. JWD!)

The table in question is the Multicast Route Message Table and you're =
absolutely right=96 that should be stated explicitly.  We've done so =
now.


7.2.3.  RREP Regeneration:
--------------------------------------

	(This seems like a bad idea to do on the reverse path. It would =
be a good way to attack a network Forward RREQ and drop all RREP. JWD)

Wouldn't this attack be possible no matter if we allow RREPs to be =
dropped or not? What am I missing here?

7.4.2.  RERR Reception:
---------------------------------

	(it=92s not clear to me what the point of this invalid route is. =
It doesn=92t get used and doesn=92t remove any existing routes. JWD)
=20
The point of that invalid route is to keep the Sequence Number.  One =
point of keeping Sequence Numbers is to avoid processing stale messages =
that might be received after long queuing delays.

	(How do we check? It=92s not at all clear how this is done. JWD! =
)

The word "check" perhaps is misleading, as the check has already taken =
place a few paragraphs above.
I've reworded the paragraph in question to:

   3.  If there are previously Active LocalRoutes that MUST be reported,
       as identified in step 2.:

       *  Regenerate the RERR as detailed in Section 7.4.3.

, does that resolve the issue?

7.4.3.  RERR Regeneration:
-------------------------------------

	(it=92s not clear how we know which localroutes need to be =
reported JWD!

again, missing reference here, I've changed that to

   2.  For each LocalRoute that needs to be reported as identified in
       Section 7.4.1:

, is that better?


Kind regards,
Lotte Steenbrink

Am 02.03.2016 um 05:18 schrieb Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>:

> I've completed my review of the draft 13 of AODVv2.  Attached is my =
updated with comments (marked JWD) and various inline fixes =
draft/review.   I've also included a diff to illustrate the inline =
fixes.  I did not review the security section.  I did have a few major =
comments which are marked with JWD!
>=20
> Justin
> <draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 =
(2).txt><draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13.diff>_________________________________=
______________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--Apple-Mail=_901F6059-1B52-4231-A519-3796B5974992
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Hello =
Justin,<div>thank you very much for your thorough and helpful review. =
We've adopted most of your editorial changes and are currently mulling =
over the larger ones.</div><div>Some questions &amp; comments for =
clarification:</div><div><br></div><div>=46rom &nbsp;2. =
Terminology:</div><div>------------------------------------</div><div><br>=
</div><div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;Local Route</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
An entry in the Local Route Set. (Local Route Set should have an entry, =
something simple and pointing to the section JWD)</div><div>(Later in =
the document LocalRoute is used pick one =
JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div>LocalRoutes are not the same as the =
Local Route set, as they're actually entries of the Set, which is =
explained in section 4.5. &nbsp;Local Route Set. Since LocalRoute is =
used before its explanation (in the &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;RERR (Route =
Error) definition of section 2), I can see how this is confusing. If my =
co-authors don't protest, I guess we can just eliminate that mention by =
changing "a valid LocalRoute" to "a valid route". Would that resolve =
this issue?</div><div><br></div><div><div>=46rom &nbsp;3. =
&nbsp;Applicability =
Statement:</div><div>--------------------------------------------------</d=
iv></div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp;(This should go in the intro =
JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Which paragraph(s) are you referring to =
here?</div><div><br></div><div>=46rom &nbsp;4.5. &nbsp;Local Route =
Set:</div><div>------------------------------------------</div><div><br></=
div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>(I=92m assuming this is here to hint at the possibility of a =
unified router with multiple routing protocols playing nicely together =
JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Yup. Should we be more explicit =
there?</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(I noticed that Unconfirmed is =
the only state that uses Route Request message instead of route message, =
is that intended? &nbsp;Can unconfirmed route state only be reached =
through Route Request messages? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Yes. Until =
a route learned through a RREQ is validated by a RREP/RREP_Ack exchange, =
it is marked as unconfirmed (so that it can't erroneously be used until =
we know it is useful)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(this =
seems like an entry that would always be full 1s on a route request if =
true that should be stated to make things more clear =
JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not sure I understand what you =
mean here, I'm assuming that prefixlength =3D=3D address length with =
RREQs?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=46rom 4.6. =
&nbsp;Multicast Route Message =
Table:</div><div>---------------------------------------------------------=
------</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(would this ever be in a RREQ?  =
If no then I suggest using words similar to =93if RteMsg is an RREP =
JWD)</div>&nbsp;<div>It would. RREQs can include the last known sequence =
number associated with TargSeqNum. see&nbsp;7.1.1. &nbsp;RREQ =
Generation:</div><div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;6. &nbsp;For =
TargSeqNum:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;* =
&nbsp;If an Invalid route exists in the Local Route Set =
matching</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TargAddr using =
longest prefix matching and has a valid</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; sequence number, set TargSeqNum :=3D =
LocalRoute.SeqNum.</div><div><br></div><div><div>=46rom 5. =
&nbsp;Metrics:</div><div>-----------------------</div></div><div><br></div=
><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>AODVv2 enables the use of multiple metric types. &nbsp;Each =
route</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>discovery attempt indicates the metric type which is requested =
for</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>the route. &nbsp;Only one metric type may be used in each route =
discovery</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>attempt. &nbsp; (Already said =
this no need to say it again. JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div>I =
don't quite understand this one=96 with the exception of =93Only one =
metric type may be used in each route discovery attempt=94, =
yes,</div><div>the rest of the information in this paragraph may be =
puzzled together using bits and pieces spread across the document=96 but =
previous criticism</div><div>(also from me) has been that this is very =
confusing, tiresome and error-prone... Or did I misunderstand your =
comment here?</div><div><br></div><div>From&nbsp;6.1. =
&nbsp;Initialization:</div><div>-------------------------------</div><div>=
<br></div><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Until MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME after =
its sequence number is reset, the</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>router SHOULD NOT create RREQ or =
RREP messages.</div></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(Just to be clear one MUST wait 5 =
mins before starting to request any route without a persistent store of =
the seq num, yes? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Yes... That mini =
paragraph is a bit redundant &amp; contradictory, isn't it? I've taken =
it out and the "must" in "must wait for MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME before it =
creates any messages" was changed to a =
MUST.</div><div><br></div><div>=46rom 6.2. &nbsp;Next Hop =
Monitoring:</div><div>------------------------------------------</div><div=
><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>(I can=92t see how the above would be helpful at all =
JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>I'm assuming that "the above" refers to =
the text you've deleted, not the general idea of leveraging external =
mechanisms to monitor connectivity, =
correct?</div><div><br></div><div>From&nbsp;6.6. &nbsp;Route Discovery, =
Retries and =
Buffering:</div><div>-----------------------------------------------------=
-------------</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(is there some table that lists =
routes that are being waited on? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Currently =
not, we're reshuffling things in order to make it more clear how to do =
all of that.</div><div><br></div><div><div>=46rom 6.7. &nbsp;Processing =
Received Route =
Information</div><div>----------------------------------------------------=
----</div></div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(MAY not MUST? Why wouldn=92t one =
update it according to section 6.7.2? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>No =
idea. This is a MUST now.</div>&nbsp;<br><div><br></div><div>=46rom =
6.7.1. &nbsp;Evaluating Route =
Information:</div><div>---------------------------------------------------=
-----</div><div><br></div><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(does processing stop here? =
&nbsp;It seems like it hsould be that isn=92t stated. =
JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div>It does, in both instances. Since =
the if statements following those paragraphs wouldn't match, there are =
nor no further processing instructions for the loop-causing AdvRte, =
essentially terminating the processing procedure. This pattern is =
employed in different places across the document; if that's desired by =
the WG I can add "Stop processing AdvRte" or something =
similar.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>From&nbsp;6.7.2. =
&nbsp;Applying Route =
Updates:</div><div>--------------------------------------------------</div=
><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(we seem to be missing when the =
Route Information Base should be updated based on the new Local Route =
Set. &nbsp;JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>4.5. &nbsp;Local Route Set =
says:</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  =
 When the Local Route State is stored separately from the Routing
   Information Base, routes are added to the Routing Information Base
   when LocalRoute.State is valid (set to Active or Idle), and removed
   from the Routing Information Base LocalRoute.State becomes =
Invalid.</pre></div><div><br></div><div>To me, the connection to the RIB =
is more of an issue connected to the general architecture of the Local =
Route Set rather than the nitty gritty of detailed update instructions, =
so I think that section 4.5 is the right place for this =
information...</div><div><br></div><div>=46rom 6.9.1. &nbsp;Local Route =
State =
Changes:</div><div>------------------------------------------------------<=
/div><div><br></div><div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(it=92s not clear to me how the =
RERR=92s are identified consider rewording to make it more clear. =
JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div>I'm not quite sure what' s unclear =
here=96 would something like&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;o &nbsp;If a Route Error (RERR) message reporting the route as =
broken is received,</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; either from =
LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a Router</div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; Client address, LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set =
to</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Invalid.</div></div><div><br></div><div>improve =
things?</div><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(Shouldn=92t they also be removed =
from the Route Information Base? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>No=96 =
Unconfirmed routes can't be used for forwarding, and therefore shouldn't =
be in the RIB in the first place.</div><div><br></div><div>7.1.1. =
&nbsp;RREQ =
Generation:</div><div>----------------------------------</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>(perhaps I=92m missing a table or something but I don=92t =
remember any RREQ table or list being described which i can check if a =
RREQ has been recently sent with associated timers. If there is such a =
table then it should be mentioned here. If there isn=92t aon there =
should be. JWD!)</div><div><br></div><div>The table in question is the =
Multicast Route Message Table and you're absolutely right=96 that should =
be stated explicitly. &nbsp;We've done so =
now.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>7.2.3. &nbsp;RREP =
Regeneration:</div><div>--------------------------------------</div><div><=
br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>(This seems like a bad idea to do on the reverse path.  It would =
be a good way to attack a network Forward RREQ and drop all RREP.  =
JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Wouldn't this attack be possible no matter =
if we allow RREPs to be dropped or not? What am I missing =
here?</div><div><br></div><div>7.4.2. &nbsp;RERR =
Reception:</div><div>---------------------------------</div><div><br></div=
><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>(it=92s not clear to me what the point of this invalid route is. =
It doesn=92t get used and doesn=92t remove any existing routes. =
JWD)</div>&nbsp;</div><div>The point of that invalid route is to keep =
the Sequence Number. &nbsp;One point of keeping Sequence Numbers is to =
avoid processing stale messages that might be received after long =
queuing delays.<br><div><br></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>(How do we check? It=92s not at =
all clear how this is done. JWD! )</div></div><div><br></div><div>The =
word "check" perhaps is misleading, as the check has already taken place =
a few paragraphs above.</div><div>I've reworded the paragraph in =
question to:</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;3. &nbsp;If =
there are previously Active LocalRoutes that MUST be =
reported,</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;as identified in step =
2.:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;* =
&nbsp;Regenerate the RERR as detailed in Section =
7.4.3.</div></div></div><div><br></div><div>, does that resolve the =
issue?</div><div><br></div><div>7.4.3. &nbsp;RERR =
Regeneration:</div><div>-------------------------------------</div><div><b=
r></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>(it=92s not clear how we know which localroutes need to be =
reported JWD!</div><div><br></div><div><div>again, missing reference =
here, I've changed that to</div><div><br></div><div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;2. =
&nbsp;For each LocalRoute that needs to be reported as identified =
in</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Section =
7.4.1:</div></div><div><br></div><div>, is that =
better?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Kind =
regards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><div><br><div><div>Am =
02.03.2016 um 05:18 schrieb Justin Dean &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;:</div><b=
r class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div>I've completed my review of the draft 13 of =
AODVv2.&nbsp; Attached is my updated with comments (marked JWD) and =
various inline fixes draft/review.&nbsp;&nbsp; I've also included a diff =
to illustrate the inline fixes.&nbsp; I did not review the security =
section.&nbsp; I did have a few major comments which are marked with =
JWD!<br></div><div><br></div>Justin<br></div>
<span>&lt;draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 =
(2).txt&gt;</span><span>&lt;draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13.diff&gt;</span>____=
___________________________________________<br>manet mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/manet<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html=
>=

--Apple-Mail=_901F6059-1B52-4231-A519-3796B5974992--


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Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-smf-sec-threats-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

        Title           : Security Threats for Simplified Multicast Forwarding (SMF)
        Authors         : Jiazi Yi
                          Thomas Heide Clausen
                          Ulrich Herberg
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-smf-sec-threats-05.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2016-03-08

Abstract:
   This document analyzes security threats of the Simplified Multicast
   Forwarding (SMF), including the vulnerabilities of duplicate packet
   detection and relay set selection mechanisms.  This document is not
   intended to propose solutions to the threats described.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-smf-sec-threats/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-smf-sec-threats-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-smf-sec-threats-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:05:19 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: Extensions
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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:04:48 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: Extensions
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Hi Ran, All,=0A=
=0A=
As part of my belated deep pass of all the DLEP review comments, in =0A=
light of draft-20 being posted, I'll attempt to answer some of your =0A=
comments.=0A=
=0A=
As an overall comment: We have taken a lot of your suggestions on board =0A=
and updated the text to reflect.  There's has been some bulk re-ordering =
=0A=
of sections and section content in order to improve the readability and =0A=
to ensure that normative text is centralized as much as possible.=0A=
=0A=
Inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 24/11/15 15:11, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> Extensions are more clear to me now, but the document itself=0A=
> is not crystal clear.  So I propose adding additional text=0A=
> to make their existence/use/concept crystal clear to a naive=0A=
> reader of the DLEP specification.=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> Concern:=0A=
>    Neither Section 1.0 nor Section 1.1 mention that DLEP is=0A=
>    extensible.  This begs the question in the mind of the=0A=
>    first-time reader and leads to a surprise when the reader=0A=
>    reads about Extensions (e.g. in Section 5) before their=0A=
>    existence has been mentioned and they have been defined.=0A=
>=0A=
> Proposed additional text at the end of Section 1.1:=0A=
>=0A=
>    While the base DLEP specification defined here is believed to be=0A=
>    sufficient, DLEP is extensible as described in Section 6 below.=0A=
>    A DLEP extension can be used to define new behaviors, message types,=
=0A=
>    data items, and/or status codes.=0A=
=0A=
We believe draft-20 addresses this issue by promoting the text to Section 1=
.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> Concern:=0A=
>    While on-list clarifications have been helpful, the actual=0A=
>    specification is not crystal clear about how Extensions work.=0A=
>    I have paraphrased previous on-list comments from others to=0A=
>    create the new paragraph below.=0A=
>=0A=
> Proposed additional paragraph for Section 6:=0A=
>=0A=
>    A single extension might contain zero or more new behaviors, zero or=
=0A=
>    more new message types, zero or more data items, and/or zero or more=
=0A=
>    new status codes.  A single extension MUST contain at least one new=0A=
>    behavior, new message type, new data item, or new status code.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
How extensions function is intentionally not defined here.  All we do is =
=0A=
introduce to the reader that extensions are possible.=0A=
=0A=
More in the next mail...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:10:56 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: timers not clearly defined
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: timers not clearly defined
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Continued, comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 24/11/15 15:26, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> The current specification seems to define (at least) two timers:=0A=
> 	- Peer Discovery Timer (Appendix A)=0A=
> 	- Heartbeat Timer (Section 5.3.1 & 10.5)=0A=
>=0A=
> However, these are implicitly defined, rather than being explicitly=0A=
> defined.  Further, the Peer Discovery Timer is defined in an=0A=
> Appendix, not in the main body of the specification.=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> REQUEST:  Please add a new Section named =93Timers=94.=0A=
>=0A=
> It can be short, but it ought to define each timer that an implementation=
=0A=
> ought to have, the semantics of each timer, the units (seconds ?) of each=
=0A=
> timer, and pointers to the parts of the draft that define when/where/how=
=0A=
> to use the timer(s).=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
We think we have addressed the general comments around heartbeats, but =0A=
there is still the Discovery Timer.  Currently we believe this is an =0A=
implementation issue and does not need to be explicitly defined in the text=
.=0A=
=0A=
If the WG consensus thinks otherwise, I agree it isn't a major change to =
=0A=
add some normative text.=0A=
=0A=
This is therefore an open question to the WG...=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:12:27 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: IANA Considerations
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Comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 24/11/15 16:08, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> The IANA Considerations in Section 12 is much better,=0A=
> but still does not seem to be compliant with RFC-5226.=0A=
>=0A=
> For example, RFC-5226 Section 4.1 language ought to be=0A=
> used when describing the allocation policy (e.g.,=0A=
> Hierarchical Allocation, First Come First Served,=0A=
> Expert Review, Specification Required, RFC Required,=0A=
> IETF Review, Standards Action, IESG Approval).=0A=
>=0A=
> It is permitted to have more than 1 authorized allocation=0A=
> policy allowed for a given registry created in an IETF RFC.=0A=
> For example, it is common to have =93Expert Review, IETF=0A=
> Review, Standards Action, or IESG Approval=94 all be allowed=0A=
> (concurrently) as ways for a new registry allocation to be=0A=
> approved.  As an example, specifying =93Expert Review=94 alone=0A=
> would mean that the DLEP WG publishing an an IETF Standards Track=0A=
> DLEP Extension would NOT be sufficient to allocate a code point=0A=
> =97 which would be both a very odd outcome and very odd registry=0A=
> management approach.=0A=
>=0A=
> Separately, the goal of this section should be that when=0A=
> the IANA staff read the IANA Considerations section of=0A=
> the draft (without reading the rest of the draft) immediately=0A=
> know exactly what they need to do to create and document=0A=
> any new registries =97 and to update any existing registries=0A=
> with new entries.  The current section 12.2 is not close=0A=
> to being sufficient in this regard.=0A=
>=0A=
> If folks want help getting this section into correct form,=0A=
> I=92m happy to help.=0A=
=0A=
Yes, the IANA section needed update, we believe we have this fixed in =0A=
draft-20.  Please double check?=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:15:14 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: Section 3.1 editorial
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Comments continue inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 24/11/15 16:18, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> For clarity, I propose to edit the text in Section 3.1=0A=
> as follows.=0A=
>=0A=
> OLD TEXT:=0A=
>    However, a modem MUST include the following list of metrics=0A=
>    in the Session Initialization Response message (Section 9.4):=0A=
>=0A=
> NEW TEXT:=0A=
>    However, a modem MUST include AT LEAST the following list of metrics=
=0A=
>    in the Session Initialization Response message (Section 9.4):=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
Hmm...  AT LEAST is not RFC 2119 text, and we think the text is clear =0A=
enough.=0A=
=0A=
This has actually been moved about in draft-20 so it's now defined =0A=
explicitly in one place.=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail...=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:27:09 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17:  initial assignment tables & nearby text
Thread-Index: AQHRJuAxQ5HmVZchs0CAGNB9IjM6Bw==
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:26:37 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17:  initial assignment tables & nearby text
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Comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 24/11/15 17:47, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> 1. Signals/Messages=0A=
> --------------------=0A=
> Section 9.0, 3rd paragraph, says:=0A=
> 	=93The core DLEP signals and messages are:=94=0A=
>=0A=
> Table 1, which contains also items that I had not thought=0A=
> were =93core DLEP signals and messages=94 (e.g. Private Use=0A=
> allocation), then follows.=0A=
>=0A=
> My suggestion is to change the text above to read:=0A=
> 	=93The core DLEP signals and messages have Type Code=0A=
>           values from 1 to 16, inclusive.  The initial values=0A=
>           for the DLEP Signals & Messages Registry are found=0A=
>           in Table 1.=94=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
I'm really not sure this adds anything except extra text.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 2. Data Items=0A=
> --------------=0A=
> Section 10.0, 2nd paragraph, says:=0A=
> 	=93The core DLEP data items are:=94=0A=
>=0A=
> Table 2, which contains also items that I had not thought=0A=
> were =93core DLEP data items=94 (e.g. Private Use allocation)=0A=
> then follows.=0A=
>=0A=
> My suggestion is to change the quoted text above to read:=0A=
> 	=93The core DLEP data items have Type Code values=0A=
> 	from 1 to 20, inclusive.  The initial values for=0A=
>          the DLEP Data Item Registry are found in Table 2.=94=0A=
=0A=
I'm really not sure this adds anything except extra text.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 3. Status Codes=0A=
> ---------------=0A=
> (We don=92t seem to have a defined set of =93core=94 DLEP status codes,=
=0A=
> which is OK with me, but unexpected after defining =93core=94 values=0A=
> earlier.)=0A=
>=0A=
> I suggest inserting the following sentence just before=0A=
> Table 3:=0A=
> 	=93The initial values for the DLEP Status Codes Registry=0A=
> 	are found in Table 3.=94=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
Hmm.. we don't define 'core status codes' so I'm not convinced. =0A=
However, we may have to move the Signal, Message, data Item and =0A=
status-code tables into the IANA section, in which case, some text like =0A=
this will have to be included.=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 4. Extension Types=0A=
> ------------------=0A=
>=0A=
> (editorial)=0A=
> Section 12.6 says in part:=0A=
> 	=93Current allocations are:=94=0A=
>=0A=
> This ought instead to read:=0A=
> 	=93Initial allocations are:=94=0A=
>=0A=
> because the reader=92s definition of =93current=94 is "when=0A=
> they are reading the specification", rather than=0A=
> "the date that the specification was written=94.=0A=
>=0A=
> The =93current=94 set is whatever the IANA Registry web page=0A=
> says on the =93current day=94 that one looks at that registry.=0A=
=0A=
s/current/initial/=0A=
=0A=
On to the next mail,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:29:30 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: RJ Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: error handling during "In-Session" state
Thread-Index: AQHRJtBu2WxC5skuw0KB6S2DjRdVlA==
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:28:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: error handling during "In-Session" state
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Quick comment inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 24/11/15 15:54, RJ Atkinson wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
> Section 5.3 seems to talk about all of the expected behaviors,=0A=
> which is great.=0A=
>=0A=
> But what is the intended response behavior if one side of the=0A=
> active DLEP session receives a (presumably unexpected) TCP Reset ?=0A=
>=0A=
> It seems to me that Section 5.3 ought to say something about:=0A=
>=0A=
> (a) whether a DLEP peer is allowed to just reset the DLEP TCP session.=0A=
>      (Maybe it isn=92t allowed to, from a DLEP perspective, which=0A=
>      might be important to note so implementers know this.)=0A=
>=0A=
> (b) how the other DLEP peer, the one receiving the TCP RST,=0A=
>      should respond to receiving that TCP RST=0A=
>      (e.g. does it try to restart the DLEP session, does it wait=0A=
>      for the other side to restart the DLEP session, or is some=0A=
>      other behavior appropriate)=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
We now have what we believe to be much clearer explicit text about the =0A=
TCP connection in draft-20.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 02:33:26 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: Failure processing
Thread-Index: AQHRMrsrR23NOZd5b0iqcKAtdrjTeg==
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:32:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: Failure processing
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All,=0A=
=0A=
Just a quick comment inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 09/12/15 19:52, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
> Authors/WG,=0A=
>=0A=
> DLEP-17 describes  Error handling in terms of a fixed "Failure Mode",=0A=
> See Table 3.  I like this formalization of something that was previously=
=0A=
> implicit.  I'd like to suggest going on step further by making=0A=
> Terminate|Continue explicit in the Status data item.  This will both=0A=
> ease initial implementation and facilitate forward compatibility.=0A=
>=0A=
> To be clear: I'm proposing adding a flags field to the Status data item:=
=0A=
>=0A=
>      0                   1                   2                   3=0A=
>      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1=0A=
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A=
>     | Data Item Type                | Length                        |=0A=
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A=
>     |T|  Reserved   | Status Code   | Text...                       :=0A=
>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=0A=
>=0A=
> With a definition of=0A=
>     T (1-Bit): When set, indicates that the session MUST be=0A=
>     terminated upon receipt of the containing message.=0A=
>=0A=
>     Reserved (7-bits): MUST be set to zero by sender and ignored by=0A=
>                        receiver.=0A=
>=0A=
> Length also changes to 2 + length of the text field.=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=
In draft-20 we have defined the behaviour (Terminate/Continue) of a =0A=
status code to be associated with its value: <100 Terminate >=3D100 Continu=
e.=0A=
=0A=
However, I am considering moving the <128 Continue, >=3D 128 Terminate, as =
=0A=
that keeps Success with value 0 as continue, and also aligns with Lou's =0A=
suggestion of a Terminate bit.=0A=
=0A=
Thoughts?=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Wed Mar  9 03:58:48 2016
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To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
References: <56688675.6000603@labn.net> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C380B29C@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 06:58:21 -0500
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: Failure processing
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The only real difference between the approaches is the effective number
of available error codes.  256 at first seemed like a lot, but 100 of a
particular type 'feels' constrained.  Given that these bits are 'cheap'
at the moment I'd recommend making the status field 1 or 2 bits larger
so that error code space is never an issue.

Lou


On 3/9/2016 5:32 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> All,
>
> Just a quick comment inline...
>
> On 09/12/15 19:52, Lou Berger wrote:
>> Authors/WG,
>>
>> DLEP-17 describes  Error handling in terms of a fixed "Failure Mode",
>> See Table 3.  I like this formalization of something that was previously
>> implicit.  I'd like to suggest going on step further by making
>> Terminate|Continue explicit in the Status data item.  This will both
>> ease initial implementation and facilitate forward compatibility.
>>
>> To be clear: I'm proposing adding a flags field to the Status data item:
>>
>>      0                   1                   2                   3
>>      0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>     | Data Item Type                | Length                        |
>>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>     |T|  Reserved   | Status Code   | Text...                       :
>>     +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> With a definition of
>>     T (1-Bit): When set, indicates that the session MUST be
>>     terminated upon receipt of the containing message.
>>
>>     Reserved (7-bits): MUST be set to zero by sender and ignored by
>>                        receiver.
>>
>> Length also changes to 2 + length of the text field.
>>
> In draft-20 we have defined the behaviour (Terminate/Continue) of a 
> status code to be associated with its value: <100 Terminate >=100 Continue.
>
> However, I am considering moving the <128 Continue, >= 128 Terminate, as 
> that keeps Success with value 0 as continue, and also aligns with Lou's 
> suggestion of a Terminate bit.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Rick
>
>



From nobody Wed Mar  9 05:44:41 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP-17: Failure processing
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Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 13:44:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: Failure processing
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On 09/03/16 11:58, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
> The only real difference between the approaches is the effective number=
=0A=
> of available error codes.  256 at first seemed like a lot, but 100 of a=
=0A=
> particular type 'feels' constrained.  Given that these bits are 'cheap'=
=0A=
> at the moment I'd recommend making the status field 1 or 2 bits larger=0A=
> so that error code space is never an issue.=0A=
=0A=
I agree that there's no real difference, but given we have 255 status =0A=
codes, and two failure modes (Terminate or Continue), it makes sense to =0A=
split them 0..127 Continue, 128..255 Terminate.=0A=
=0A=
Currently we have 3 'continue' codes, and 5 'terminate' codes, so we =0A=
aren't running out of number space yet!=0A=
=0A=
As an aside - I personally hate 'wide' error codes, the UNIX approach of =
=0A=
errno having a few generic values is just much more manageable from an =0A=
interop perspective than the Windows approach of 32-bit codes banked by =0A=
system module.  So any extension drafts which introduce a 100 new status =
=0A=
codes will get my thumbs down.=0A=
=0A=
Compare:=0A=
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/errno.h.html=0A=
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms681381(v=3Dvs.85=
).aspx=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=


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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>, MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 09:01:22 -0500
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: Failure processing
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Okay. Wfm.

Lou


On March 9, 2016 8:44:42 AM Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

> On 09/03/16 11:58, Lou Berger wrote:
>> The only real difference between the approaches is the effective number
>> of available error codes.  256 at first seemed like a lot, but 100 of a
>> particular type 'feels' constrained.  Given that these bits are 'cheap'
>> at the moment I'd recommend making the status field 1 or 2 bits larger
>> so that error code space is never an issue.
>
> I agree that there's no real difference, but given we have 255 status
> codes, and two failure modes (Terminate or Continue), it makes sense to
> split them 0..127 Continue, 128..255 Terminate.
>
> Currently we have 3 'continue' codes, and 5 'terminate' codes, so we
> aren't running out of number space yet!
>
> As an aside - I personally hate 'wide' error codes, the UNIX approach of
> errno having a few generic values is just much more manageable from an
> interop perspective than the Windows approach of 32-bit codes banked by
> system module.  So any extension drafts which introduce a 100 new status
> codes will get my thumbs down.
>
> Compare:
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/errno.h.html
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms681381(v=vs.85).aspx
>
> Rick
>
>



From nobody Wed Mar  9 06:18:40 2016
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To: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
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A couple of comments I made on credit-window-01 are not addressed in -02:

On 2/29/16, 9:10 AM, "manet on behalf of Wiggins, David - 0665" wrote:

>Here are a few commemts on  draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-01.  Sorry I
>didn't get this out earlier.
>
>The draft talks about Destination Up and Response, but not Destination
>Announce and Response.  A strict reading would only allow modems to
>request credit windowing on their destinations, since only they can send
>Destination Up (as of DLEP-18).  I *think* the intention was to allow
>either side to request credit windowing.  If so, then Destination Announce
>and Response need to be added.  In most cases it is probably sufficient to
>change "Destination Up" to "Destination Up or Destination Announce" and
>likewise for Response.
>
>The code points for the new data items and the extension code are still
>listed as TBD.  Do specific values need to be chosen, as was done in the
>DLEP draft?  DLEP-19 says that the Credit Windowing extension has code =
>1, so at least that should be consistent.  Ideally it would not be
>specified in two places.

Also, a new nit: Wondow -> Window in section 7.2.

Thanks,

David

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In-Reply-To: <D3059796.189D%David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
References: <D3059796.189D%David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:59:37 -0500
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] credit-wIndow-02 comments
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--089e0129483a53d107052d9ef28a
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David,

My first response wasn't "reply all", so I'm replicating here. My apologies
for not addressing. Please see inline for additional comments.

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 9:11 AM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <
David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

> A couple of comments I made on credit-window-01 are not addressed in -02:
>
> On 2/29/16, 9:10 AM, "manet on behalf of Wiggins, David - 0665" wrote:
>
> >Here are a few commemts on  draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-01.  Sorry I
> >didn't get this out earlier.
> >
> >The draft talks about Destination Up and Response, but not Destination
> >Announce and Response.  A strict reading would only allow modems to
> >request credit windowing on their destinations, since only they can send
> >Destination Up (as of DLEP-18).  I *think* the intention was to allow
> >either side to request credit windowing.  If so, then Destination Announce
> >and Response need to be added.  In most cases it is probably sufficient to
> >change "Destination Up" to "Destination Up or Destination Announce" and
> >likewise for Response.
>

Yes, good catch.



> >
> >The code points for the new data items and the extension code are still
> >listed as TBD.  Do specific values need to be chosen, as was done in the
> >DLEP draft?  DLEP-19 says that the Credit Windowing extension has code =
> >1, so at least that should be consistent.  Ideally it would not be
> >specified in two places.
>

Even though the drafts list each other as normative references, I took the
position that the DLEP draft defines the IANA registires, and serves as the
initial allocation. Therefore, this draft is asking for supplemental
allocations; hence the TBD.


>
> Also, a new nit: Wondow -> Window in section 7.2.
>

Thanks,

Regards,
Stan

--089e0129483a53d107052d9ef28a
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<div dir=3D"ltr">David,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>My first response wasn&#39=
;t &quot;reply all&quot;, so I&#39;m replicating here. My apologies for not=
 addressing. Please see inline for additional comments.=C2=A0</div><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 9:=
11 AM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">A couple of comments I =
made on credit-window-01 are not addressed in -02:<br>
<br>
On 2/29/16, 9:10 AM, &quot;manet on behalf of Wiggins, David - 0665&quot; w=
rote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Here are a few commemts on=C2=A0 draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-01.=C2=
=A0 Sorry I<br>
&gt;didn&#39;t get this out earlier.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The draft talks about Destination Up and Response, but not Destination<=
br>
&gt;Announce and Response.=C2=A0 A strict reading would only allow modems t=
o<br>
&gt;request credit windowing on their destinations, since only they can sen=
d<br>
&gt;Destination Up (as of DLEP-18).=C2=A0 I *think* the intention was to al=
low<br>
&gt;either side to request credit windowing.=C2=A0 If so, then Destination =
Announce<br>
&gt;and Response need to be added.=C2=A0 In most cases it is probably suffi=
cient to<br>
&gt;change &quot;Destination Up&quot; to &quot;Destination Up or Destinatio=
n Announce&quot; and<br>
&gt;likewise for Response.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, good ca=
tch.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex">
&gt;<br>
&gt;The code points for the new data items and the extension code are still=
<br>
&gt;listed as TBD.=C2=A0 Do specific values need to be chosen, as was done =
in the<br>
&gt;DLEP draft?=C2=A0 DLEP-19 says that the Credit Windowing extension has =
code =3D<br>
&gt;1, so at least that should be consistent.=C2=A0 Ideally it would not be=
<br>
&gt;specified in two places.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Even thoug=
h the drafts list each other as normative references, I took the position t=
hat the DLEP draft defines the IANA registires, and serves as the initial a=
llocation. Therefore, this draft is asking for supplemental allocations; he=
nce the TBD.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Also, a new nit: Wondow -&gt; Window in section 7.2.<br></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>Thanks,=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Sta=
n</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

--089e0129483a53d107052d9ef28a--


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From: Antonino Masaracchia<aoc2016_publicity@iit.cnr.it>
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Subject: [manet] [Deadline Extended to March 20] AOC 2016: IEEE WoWMoM Workshop on Autonomic and Opportunistic Communications
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Please accept our apologies if you receive multiple copies of this CFP.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------

                               CALL FOR PAPERS                         =
     =09
                    =09Tenth IEEE WoWMoM Workshop on                   =
    =09
         =09Autonomic and Opportunistic Communications (AOC 2016)      =
    =09
            =09      June 21, 2016 - Coimbra, Portugal =20
   =09                http://cnd.iit.cnr.it/aoc2016

=09=09     in conjunction with IEEE WoWMoM, 2016    =20
                           http://wowmom2016.uc.pt/
                 =09
                 =20
              *** SUBMISSION DEADLINE EXTENDED to March 20, 2016 ***=09

-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---------

SCOPE AND OVERVIEW

The recent proliferation of sensor-rich portable devices is enabling no=
vel communication paradigms for users and contributing to the implement=
ation of the ubiquitous computing and networking vision. Opportunistic =
networking represents a key communication paradigm for this vision. Eit=
her as a standalone communication mode or as a complement to infrastruc=
ture-based communication, opportunistic networking leverages the mobili=
ty of end users to enhance their ability to communicate in the absence =
of reliable end-to-end connectivity. Opportunistic networking opens up =
many possibilities but also poses countless new challenges. The goal of=
 the AOC 2016 workshop is to serve as a forum for researchers, professi=
onals, application developers, and other experts from both academia and=
 industry to exchange new ideas, discuss new solutions, and share their=
 experiences. As with previous editions, this year's workshop is partic=
ularly interested in novel research directions, such as service composi=
tion techniques, co-existence with infrastructure networks such solutio=
ns based on fog or edge computing, and insights from complex network an=
alysis applied to autonomic and opportunistic communications.

The workshop will solicit original papers addressing theoretical and pr=
actical aspects of autonomic and opportunistic communications as well a=
s papers describing prototype implementations and deployments.
Topics of interest for AOC 2016 include, but are not limited to:
- Techniques for data dissemination and replication
- Context and social awareness mechanisms and algorithms
- Autonomous and self-adaptive systems for smart cities
- Autonomous solutions for IoT and cyber-physical systems
- Solutions based on fog or edge computing
- Big data for autonomic and opportunistic systems
- Mobile social networking algorithms and applications
- Co-existence of opportunistic networks with infrastructure mobile wir=
eless networks
- Mobility models and statistical analysis of mobility traces
- Service composition in autonomic and opportunistic networks
- Cognition-driven information processing and decision making
- Performance modelling, scaling laws, and fundamental limits for auton=
omic and opportunistic communications
- Participatory and urban sensing in autonomic and opportunistic networ=
ks
- Game-theoretic insights to the operation of autonomic and opportunist=
ic networks
- Trust, security, and reputation
- Autonomic and opportunistic communication testbeds and prototypes, me=
asurement data from real experiments
- Socio-economic models for autonomic and opportunistic communications
- SNA and graph modeling for autonomic and opportunistic networks
- Autonomic and opportunistic solutions for mobile cloud applications
- Applications and middleware support
- Routing, transport, and reliability issues
=20

PAPER SUBMISSION AND PUBLICATION
--------------------------------

Submission will be managed electronically through EDAS (https://edas.in=
fo/newPaper.php?c=3D21826).
=20
Papers should neither have been published elsewhere nor being currently=
 under review by another conference or journal. Manuscripts are limited=
 to 6 pages, single spacing, double column, and must strictly adhere to=
 the template format.
Accepted papers will appear in the symposium proceedings published by I=
EEE. There will be no separate workshop registration, as one single reg=
istration will cover both conference and workshops participation. At le=
ast one author of each accepted paper must register to the workshop and=
 present his/her work.
=20
=20
IMPORTANT DATES
---------------
Full papers due:=09March 20, 2016 (EXTENDED)
Notification:=09=09April 15, 2016
Camera-ready:=09=09April 29, 2016
Workshop:=09=09June 21, 2016

ORGANISING COMMITTEE
--------------------

Workshop Co-Chairs=20
     Michela Papandrea, SUPSI, Switzerland
     Matteo Zignani, University of Milan, Italy
     Valerio Arnaboldi, IIT, CNR, Italy

Publicity Chair
    Antonino Masaracchia, IIT, CNR, Italy

PROGRAM COMMITTEE

    Alan Ferrari, SUSPSI, Switzerland
    Anna Forster, University of Bremen, Germany
    Annalisa Socievole, University of Calabria
    Chiara Boldrini, IIT-CNR, Italy
    Christian Rohner, Uppsala University, Sweden
    Eiko Yoneki, University of Cambridge, UK
    Elena Pagani, Universita' di Milano, Italy
    Franck Legendre, ETH, Switzerland
    Hongyi Wu, University of Louisiana at Lafayette, USA
    Jorg Ott, Technische Universitat Munchen
    Kamini Garg, SUPSI, Switzerland
    Kyunghan Lee, UNIST, Korea
    Lorenzo Valerio, IIT-CNR, Italy
    Matteo Mordacchini, IIT-CNR, Italy
    Nicholas Lane, Bell Labs, UK
    Pavlos Sermpezis, FORTH, Greece
    Roger Whitaker, University of Cardiff, UK
    Sabrina Gaito, Universita' degli Studi di Milano, Italy
    Sebastian Zander, Swinbourne University of Technology, Australia
    Serge Fdida, UPMC Sorbonne Universites, France
    Thrasyvoulos Spyropoulos, EURECOM, France
    Tristan Henderson, University of St Andrews, United Kingdom
    Vania Conan, Thales Communication and Security, France
    Waldir Moreira, COPELABS/University Lusofona, Portugal

For further information, please contact the workshop chairs at aoc2016 =
at iit.cnr.it


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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
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So far I haven't looked at -20 (and I've heard a rumour of a -21 coming Rea=
l Soon Now) I've just looked at comments on comments. Based on the comments=
 alone, looking good on what I've indicated. (Of course not agreed with eve=
rything, but I haven't seen anything I felt more strongly about disagreed w=
ith, with one partial exception.)

The one I think I'd just take advice on now rather than produce another cyc=
le is the IANA section. It's easy to drop a line to them saying something l=
ike "must an IANA section be fully self-contained, or may it include refere=
nces to tables elsewhere in the document". I think the answer is the former=
, but I may be wrong.

I have, for my convenience, cut and pasted here two comments to follow up o=
n as well as a read of -20/-21.



> Section 9.5. The whole concept of router signalling modem should be

> brought out earlier in the document. The paragraph starting

> "Concerning layer 3 addresses" is a particularly jarring one in the

> mixture of protocol and data.



This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but this paragraph remains.

 Can you revisit?


> Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delete MAY, that's what zero

> means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs to be elsewhere, and in

> any case it's overruled by RECOMMENDED i.e. SHOULD two lines down.)



Sorry, where?


--
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
__________________________________________________________________________

T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com<mailto:chris.de=
arlove@baesystems.com>

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,=
 Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai<http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So far I haven&#8217;t looked at -20 (and I&#8217;ve=
 heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now) I&#8217;ve just looked at co=
mments on comments. Based on the comments alone, looking good on what I&#82=
17;ve indicated. (Of course not agreed with everything, but
 I haven&#8217;t seen anything I felt more strongly about disagreed with, w=
ith one partial exception.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The one I think I&#8217;d just take advice on now ra=
ther than produce another cycle is the IANA section. It&#8217;s easy to dro=
p a line to them saying something like &#8220;must an IANA section be fully=
 self-contained, or may it include references to tables
 elsewhere in the document&#8221;. I think the answer is the former, but I =
may be wrong.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have, for my convenience, cut and pasted here two =
comments to follow up on as well as a read of -20/-21.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Section 9.5. The whole concept of router sig=
nalling modem should be
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; brought out earlier in the document. The par=
agraph starting
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; &#8220;Concerning layer 3 addresses&#8221; i=
s a particularly jarring one in the
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; mixture of protocol and data.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but t=
his paragraph remains.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;Can you revisit?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delet=
e MAY, that&#8217;s what zero
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs =
to be elsewhere, and in
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; any case it&#8217;s overruled by RECOMMENDED=
 i.e. SHOULD two lines down.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sorry, where?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0=
07E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">--
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0=
07E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Christopher Dearlove<br>
Senior Principal Engineer<br>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#BEBEBE;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">__________________________=
________________________________________________<br>
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">T</span></b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">: &nbsp;&#43;44 (0)1245 24=
2194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:b=
lue">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">BAE Systems Appli=
ed Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Esse=
x CM2 8HN.<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span style=3D"color:#3A8B92">www.=
baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">B=
AE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B9=
2;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guil=
dford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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On 3/10/2016 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
> I’ve heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now
eek I had 20 on my reading list -- and I'd like to send specific
recommendations on which text to scratch in order to eliminate duplicate
conformance statements (which looks mostly straightforward to do)  --
but don't want to do it if the draft is a daily moving target.

Authors,
    What are your current document update plans?

Thanks,
Lou



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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Thomas Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D92377CFAGLKXM0002VGREEN_--


From nobody Thu Mar 10 09:06:06 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "Taylor, Rick (rick.taylor@airbus.com) (rick.taylor@airbus.com)" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:00:30 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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All,=0A=
=0A=
Given there is a typo in the current credit windowing draft, and a few =0A=
in dlep-draft-20, and I missed a few of Chris' comments, we intend to =0A=
push out a new draft as soon as possible.  BUT:  We want reviewer =0A=
feedback as well, so we don't end up posting a draft every 2 days.=0A=
=0A=
Ideally, I would like some reviews from the list, especially Lou and =0A=
Chris who have done excellent helpful reviews before, by the end of this =
=0A=
week, so we can push out draft-21 and exit WG last-call as soon as possible=
.=0A=
=0A=
Question to the list:  Do you want a draft-21 and accompanying =0A=
credit-windowing draft now?  Or are you happy to review the major =0A=
changes in draft-20, knowing we have already addressed some of the nits.=0A=
=0A=
The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:=0A=
=0A=
* Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each =0A=
of'/'any of').=0A=
* Renumbering the status code values.=0A=
=0A=
What has radically changed since draft-19 is that we have moved most of =0A=
the normative text into Section 8 and 9, and worked hard at improving =0A=
the flow of text (as it had become a bit jumbled).  I would really like =0A=
feedback on this, as I hope it has improved the readability.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On 10/03/16 16:43, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> On 3/10/2016 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:=0A=
>> I=92ve heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now=0A=
> eek I had 20 on my reading list -- and I'd like to send specific=0A=
> recommendations on which text to scratch in order to eliminate duplicate=
=0A=
> conformance statements (which looks mostly straightforward to do)  --=0A=
> but don't want to do it if the draft is a daily moving target.=0A=
>=0A=
> Authors,=0A=
>      What are your current document update plans?=0A=
>=0A=
> Thanks,=0A=
> Lou=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> manet mailing list=0A=
> manet@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


From nobody Thu Mar 10 09:09:41 2016
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Taylor, Rick (rick.taylor@airbus.com) (rick.taylor@airbus.com)" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
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I'm not going to make a -20/-21 call, I'll just say I may well not get to t=
his tomorrow (today is done). Let me know when your -21 plan is, and I'll p=
lan accordingly (or, as is also possible, circumstances will plan for me in=
stead).

-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
__________________________________________________________________________

T: =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =A0| =A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,=
 Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com] =

Sent: 10 March 2016 17:01
To: Lou Berger; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Taylor, Rick (rick.taylor@airbu=
s.com) (rick.taylor@airbus.com); manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=3Deview

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nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro=
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All,

Given there is a typo in the current credit windowing draft, and a few in d=
lep-draft-20, and I missed a few of Chris' comments, we intend to push out =
a new draft as soon as possible.  BUT:  We want reviewer feedback as well, =
so we don't end up posting a draft every 2 days.

Ideally, I would like some reviews from the list, especially Lou and Chris =
who have done excellent helpful reviews before, by the end of this week, so=
 we can push out draft-21 and exit WG last-call as soon as possible.

Question to the list:  Do you want a draft-21 and accompanying credit-windo=
wing draft now?  Or are you happy to review the major changes in draft-20, =
knowing we have already addressed some of the nits.

The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:

* Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each of'/'=
any of').
* Renumbering the status code values.

What has radically changed since draft-19 is that we have moved most of the=
 normative text into Section 8 and 9, and worked hard at improving the flow=
 of text (as it had become a bit jumbled).  I would really like feedback on=
 this, as I hope it has improved the readability.

Rick


On 10/03/16 16:43, Lou Berger wrote:
>
>
> On 3/10/2016 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>> I've heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now
> eek I had 20 on my reading list -- and I'd like to send specific =

> recommendations on which text to scratch in order to eliminate =

> duplicate conformance statements (which looks mostly straightforward =

> to do)  -- but don't want to do it if the draft is a daily moving target.
>
> Authors,
>      What are your current document update plans?
>
> Thanks,
> Lou
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>


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Cc: "aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org" <aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:14:32 +0100
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To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: "aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org" <aodvv2-discuss@freelists.org>, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
> Actually, I was wrong about there being a hop exception. As hop count/lim=
it
> updates are the protocol=E2=80=99s job, even they are to be unchanged by =
the
> multiplexer.
>
> I=E2=80=99ve also identified - and this is the place to fix it - that the=
 errata to
> 5444 doesn=E2=80=99t go far enough. Someone (Henning perhaps) spotted tha=
t the
> packet sequence number should be per interface, as it always had been in
> OLSRv1, and we got that put in as an erratum to 5444. Actually it should =
be
> per (interface, destination). Not an issue when, like NHDP/OLSRv2,
> everything uses the same broadcast/multicast address. But if packets migh=
t
> be unicast (always intended as an option, and AODVv2 may do it) then it
> needs to also be per destination to be useful.  Easily added.

That is exactly how I implemented it in my (de-)multiplixer code... I
always took the "per destination" for granted and considered "same
multicast destination, same sequence number" the thing that needed to
be fixed.

my multiplexer has the concept of a "target", which is a destination
IP on an interface... and it produces a packet sequence number per
target.

Henning


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From: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@airbus.com>
To: "'Rick Taylor'" <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "TAYLOR, Rick" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Rick,

Thanks for the swift turnaround in getting DLEP-20 out.

Only 1 NIT : from a quick peruse, the change to RLQT being a percentage w=
asn't also done for
RLQR.

Overall, the document reads MUCH better to me with vastly improved flow :=
)

Personally, I would hope that there isn't going to be a merry-go-round of=
 'draft-du-jour' .

I wouldn't imaging the diff from -21 to -20 will be huge, so for what it'=
s worth I'd be
happy to see a -21 in last call in the very near future :)

Cheers

Steve

>-----Original Message-----
>From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
>Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 5:01 PM
>To: Lou Berger; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); TAYLOR, Rick; manet@ietf.org
>Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=3Deview
>
>All,
>
>Given there is a typo in the current credit windowing draft, and a few
>in dlep-draft-20, and I missed a few of Chris' comments, we intend to
>push out a new draft as soon as possible.  BUT:  We want reviewer
>feedback as well, so we don't end up posting a draft every 2 days.
>
>Ideally, I would like some reviews from the list, especially Lou and
>Chris who have done excellent helpful reviews before, by the end of this
>week, so we can push out draft-21 and exit WG last-call as soon as possi=
ble.
>
>Question to the list:  Do you want a draft-21 and accompanying
>credit-windowing draft now?  Or are you happy to review the major
>changes in draft-20, knowing we have already addressed some of the nits.
>
>The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:
>
>* Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each
>of'/'any of').
>* Renumbering the status code values.
>
>What has radically changed since draft-19 is that we have moved most of
>the normative text into Section 8 and 9, and worked hard at improving
>the flow of text (as it had become a bit jumbled).  I would really like
>feedback on this, as I hope it has improved the readability.
>
>Rick
>
>
>On 10/03/16 16:43, Lou Berger wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 3/10/2016 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>>> I've heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now
>> eek I had 20 on my reading list -- and I'd like to send specific
>> recommendations on which text to scratch in order to eliminate duplica=
te
>> conformance statements (which looks mostly straightforward to do)  --
>> but don't want to do it if the draft is a daily moving target.
>>
>> Authors,
>>      What are your current document update plans?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Lou
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
>
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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@airbus.com>, 'Rick Taylor' <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "TAYLOR, Rick" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:37:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Steven, =


Thanks. RLQ is *NOT* a percentage. If that's in DLEP-20, then I missed the =
update, and I oppose. =


Regards,
Stan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of MATTY, Steven
> Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 1:35 PM
> To: 'Rick Taylor' <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Lou Berger
> <lberger@labn.net>; Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>; TAYLOR, Rick <rick.taylor@airbus.com>;
> manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=3Deview
> =

> Rick,
> =

> Thanks for the swift turnaround in getting DLEP-20 out.
> =

> Only 1 NIT : from a quick peruse, the change to RLQT being a percentage
> wasn't also done for RLQR.
> =

> Overall, the document reads MUCH better to me with vastly improved flow :)
> =

> Personally, I would hope that there isn't going to be a merry-go-round of
> 'draft-du-jour' .
> =

> I wouldn't imaging the diff from -21 to -20 will be huge, so for what it'=
s worth
> I'd be happy to see a -21 in last call in the very near future :)
> =

> Cheers
> =

> Steve
> =

> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
> >Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 5:01 PM
> >To: Lou Berger; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); TAYLOR, Rick;
> >manet@ietf.org
> >Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=3Deview
> >
> >All,
> >
> >Given there is a typo in the current credit windowing draft, and a few
> >in dlep-draft-20, and I missed a few of Chris' comments, we intend to
> >push out a new draft as soon as possible.  BUT:  We want reviewer
> >feedback as well, so we don't end up posting a draft every 2 days.
> >
> >Ideally, I would like some reviews from the list, especially Lou and
> >Chris who have done excellent helpful reviews before, by the end of
> >this week, so we can push out draft-21 and exit WG last-call as soon as
> possible.
> >
> >Question to the list:  Do you want a draft-21 and accompanying
> >credit-windowing draft now?  Or are you happy to review the major
> >changes in draft-20, knowing we have already addressed some of the nits.
> >
> >The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:
> >
> >* Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each
> >of'/'any of').
> >* Renumbering the status code values.
> >
> >What has radically changed since draft-19 is that we have moved most of
> >the normative text into Section 8 and 9, and worked hard at improving
> >the flow of text (as it had become a bit jumbled).  I would really like
> >feedback on this, as I hope it has improved the readability.
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >
> >On 10/03/16 16:43, Lou Berger wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On 3/10/2016 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
> >>> I've heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now
> >> eek I had 20 on my reading list -- and I'd like to send specific
> >> recommendations on which text to scratch in order to eliminate
> >> duplicate conformance statements (which looks mostly straightforward
> >> to do)  -- but don't want to do it if the draft is a daily moving targ=
et.
> >>
> >> Authors,
> >>      What are your current document update plans?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Lou
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> manet mailing list
> >> manet@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >>
> >
> >
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To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "Taylor, Rick (rick.taylor@airbus.com) (rick.taylor@airbus.com)" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Rick,

On 3/10/2016 12:00 PM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:
>
> * Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each 
> of'/'any of').
> * Renumbering the status code values.
>From my perspective, since this is a minor change it doesn't make too
much of a difference for my comments.  I should have comments to you on
Monday (worst case Tuesday.).

Lou



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From: Randal Atkinson <rja.lists@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17:  initial assignment tables & nearby text
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> On 9Mar2016, at 05:26, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Comments inline...
>=20
> On 24/11/15 17:47, RJ Atkinson wrote:
>>=20
>> 1. Signals/Messages
>> --------------------
>> Section 9.0, 3rd paragraph, says:
>> 	=93The core DLEP signals and messages are:=94
>>=20
>> Table 1, which contains also items that I had not thought
>> were =93core DLEP signals and messages=94 (e.g. Private Use
>> allocation), then follows.
>>=20
>> My suggestion is to change the text above to read:
>> 	=93The core DLEP signals and messages have Type Code
>>          values from 1 to 16, inclusive.  The initial values
>>          for the DLEP Signals & Messages Registry are found
>>          in Table 1.=94
>>=20
>=20
> I'm really not sure this adds anything except extra text.

The proposed text clarifies, for example, that Private Use items
are NOT =93Core DLEP signals and messages=94.  As of DLEP-17,
the table referenced included the whole set of values.

If the intention is that =93Core DLEP signals and messages=94
DO include Private Use Items, then it is not clear why
we defined a concept of =93Core=94 items.

>=20
>>=20
>> 2. Data Items
>> --------------
>> Section 10.0, 2nd paragraph, says:
>> 	=93The core DLEP data items are:=94
>>=20
>> Table 2, which contains also items that I had not thought
>> were =93core DLEP data items=94 (e.g. Private Use allocation)
>> then follows.
>>=20
>> My suggestion is to change the quoted text above to read:
>> 	=93The core DLEP data items have Type Code values
>> 	from 1 to 20, inclusive.  The initial values for
>>         the DLEP Data Item Registry are found in Table 2.=94
>=20
> I'm really not sure this adds anything except extra text.

See above.  Either we don=92t need a concept of =93Core=94
items because everything is =93Core=94 xor the =93Core=94 items
need to be crisply specified.  DLEP-17 indicated the
entire table, not just items 1-20, are =93Core=94 items.

>>=20
>> 3. Status Codes
>> ---------------
>> (We don=92t seem to have a defined set of =93core=94 DLEP status =
codes,
>> which is OK with me, but unexpected after defining =93core=94 values
>> earlier.)
>>=20
>> I suggest inserting the following sentence just before
>> Table 3:
>> 	=93The initial values for the DLEP Status Codes Registry
>> 	are found in Table 3.=94
>>=20
>=20
> Hmm.. we don't define 'core status codes' so I'm not convinced.=20

I agree it didn=92t.  I merely noted that it was a surprise.

> However, we may have to move the Signal, Message, data Item and=20
> status-code tables into the IANA section, in which case, some text =
like=20
> this will have to be included.

I believe that the table of initial values for any IANA-managed registry
belongs in the IANA Considerations Section.  Certainly that is a very
common place for them.

>>=20
>> 4. Extension Types
>> ------------------
>>=20
>> (editorial)
>> Section 12.6 says in part:
>> 	=93Current allocations are:=94
>>=20
>> This ought instead to read:
>> 	=93Initial allocations are:=94
>>=20
>> because the reader=92s definition of =93current=94 is "when
>> they are reading the specification", rather than
>> "the date that the specification was written=94.
>>=20
>> The =93current=94 set is whatever the IANA Registry web page
>> says on the =93current day=94 that one looks at that registry.
>=20
> s/current/initial/
>=20
> On to the next mail,
>=20
> Rick


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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP-17: timers not clearly defined
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> On 9Mar2016, at 05:10, Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Continued, comments inline...
>=20
> On 24/11/15 15:26, RJ Atkinson wrote:
>>=20
>> The current specification seems to define (at least) two timers:
>> 	- Peer Discovery Timer (Appendix A)
>> 	- Heartbeat Timer (Section 5.3.1 & 10.5)
>>=20
>> However, these are implicitly defined, rather than being explicitly
>> defined.  Further, the Peer Discovery Timer is defined in an
>> Appendix, not in the main body of the specification.
>>=20
>>=20
>> REQUEST:  Please add a new Section named =93Timers=94.
>>=20
>> It can be short, but it ought to define each timer that an =
implementation
>> ought to have, the semantics of each timer, the units (seconds ?) of =
each
>> timer, and pointers to the parts of the draft that define =
when/where/how
>> to use the timer(s).
>>=20
>=20
> We think we have addressed the general comments around heartbeats, but=20=

> there is still the Discovery Timer.  Currently we believe this is an=20=

> implementation issue and does not need to be explicitly defined in the =
text.
>=20
> If the WG consensus thinks otherwise, I agree it isn't a major change =
to=20
> add some normative text.
>=20
> This is therefore an open question to the WG...

Based on DLEP-17, I think we need at least a description of the =
Discovery Timer=20
and also conceptually where/how it fits into an implementation.  If the =
timer is optional,=20
that would be OK provided the text said it was optional (i.e., don=92t =
make an
reader guess what the specification means, that road leads to =
non-interoperability). =20

At a high-level, any timer that an implementation needs to have =97 or =
timer
that is mentioned in the specification =97 should be clearly documented.
Now in some cases, that timer might have very precise normative text
(timer than runs for X ms, then behavior Y happens).  In other cases, =
that
timer might have less precise normative text =97 leaving some details of =
=20
that timer=92s implementation up to the implementer.    Please don=92t =
make
an implementer guess about whether the timer exists, why it exists,
or how it relates to the rest of the DLEP implementation.

The implementer needs to be able to create a fully interoperable
implementation just from reading the specification, so any timer that is=20=

either required or mentioned needs to be clearly described (even if some
implementations details of a given timer are left to the implementer).

Yours,

Ran


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To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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> On Mar 10, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@b=
aesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> So far I haven=E2=80=99t looked at -20 (and I=E2=80=99ve heard a rumour of=
 a -21 coming Real Soon Now) I=E2=80=99ve just looked at comments on comment=
s. Based on the comments alone, looking good on what I=E2=80=99ve indicated.=
 (Of course not agreed with everything, but I haven=E2=80=99t seen anything I=
 felt more strongly about disagreed with, with one partial exception.)
> =20
> The one I think I=E2=80=99d just take advice on now rather than produce an=
other cycle is the IANA section. It=E2=80=99s easy to drop a line to them sa=
ying something like =E2=80=9Cmust an IANA section be fully self-contained, o=
r may it include references to tables elsewhere in the document=E2=80=9D. I t=
hink the answer is the former, but I may be wrong.
> =20
> I have, for my convenience, cut and pasted here two comments to follow up o=
n as well as a read of -20/-21.
> =20
> =20
> > Section 9.5. The whole concept of router signalling modem should be
> > brought out earlier in the document. The paragraph starting
> > =E2=80=9CConcerning layer 3 addresses=E2=80=9D is a particularly jarring=
 one in the
> > mixture of protocol and data.
> =20
> This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but this paragraph remains.
>  Can you revisit?

I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to revisit & address the above. Perhaps you=
 could suggest som text?=20

Regards,
Stan

> =20
> > Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delete MAY, that=E2=80=99s what z=
ero
> > means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs to be elsewhere, and in
> > any case it=E2=80=99s overruled by RECOMMENDED i.e. SHOULD two lines dow=
n.)
> =20
> Sorry, where?
> =20
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> __________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow=
, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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e"><br></div><div><br>On Mar 10, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (U=
K) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesy=
stems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So far I haven=E2=80=99t looked at -20 (and I=E2=80=99=
ve heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now) I=E2=80=99ve just looked at=
 comments on comments. Based on the comments alone, looking good on what I=E2=
=80=99ve indicated. (Of course not agreed with everything, but
 I haven=E2=80=99t seen anything I felt more strongly about disagreed with, w=
ith one partial exception.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The one I think I=E2=80=99d just take advice on now r=
ather than produce another cycle is the IANA section. It=E2=80=99s easy to d=
rop a line to them saying something like =E2=80=9Cmust an IANA section be fu=
lly self-contained, or may it include references to tables
 elsewhere in the document=E2=80=9D. I think the answer is the former, but I=
 may be wrong.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have, for my convenience, cut and pasted here two c=
omments to follow up on as well as a read of -20/-21.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Section 9.5. The whole concept of router sign=
alling modem should be
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; brought out earlier in the document. The para=
graph starting
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; =E2=80=9CConcerning layer 3 addresses=E2=80=9D=
 is a particularly jarring one in the
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; mixture of protocol and data.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but th=
is paragraph remains.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;Can you revisit?</p></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div>I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to revisit &amp; address th=
e above. Perhaps you could suggest som text?&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Regard=
s,</div><div>Stan</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D=
"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delete=
 MAY, that=E2=80=99s what zero
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs t=
o be elsewhere, and in
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; any case it=E2=80=99s overruled by RECOMMENDE=
D i.e. SHOULD two lines down.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sorry, where?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#007=
E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">--
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#007=
E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Christopher Dearlove<br>
Senior Principal Engineer<br>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:#BEBEBE;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">____________________________=
______________________________________________<br>
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">T</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194 &nb=
sp;| &nbsp;<b>E:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:bl=
ue">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sa=
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</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">BAE Systems Applied=
 Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex C=
M2 8HN.<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span style=3D"color:#3A8B92">www.b=
aesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">BAE=
 Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;=
mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildfo=
rd, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:27:35 +0000
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/1pfAv4oc6WFA536X1sKgilE964U>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, "Taylor,  Rick \(rick.taylor@airbus.com\) \(rick.taylor@airbus.com\)" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. Those are bits from Rick commenting on my comments th=
at I couldn't work out what, if anything, my response to was  without readin=
g -20. But to avoid them being lost in the various postings I abstracted the=
m to one place to reconsider. Right now I have no idea if my reaction will b=
e I'm OK with what's in -20 or have a suggestion.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 10 Mar 2016, at 20:42, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Mar 10, 2016, at 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com wrote:
>>=20
>> So far I haven=E2=80=99t looked at -20 (and I=E2=80=99ve heard a rumour o=
f a -21 coming Real Soon Now) I=E2=80=99ve just looked at comments on commen=
ts. Based on the comments alone, looking good on what I=E2=80=99ve indicated=
. (Of course not agreed with everything, but I haven=E2=80=99t seen anything=
 I felt more strongly about disagreed with, with one partial exception.)
>> =20
>> The one I think I=E2=80=99d just take advice on now rather than produce a=
nother cycle is the IANA section. It=E2=80=99s easy to drop a line to them s=
aying something like =E2=80=9Cmust an IANA section be fully self-contained, o=
r may it include references to tables elsewhere in the document=E2=80=9D. I t=
hink the answer is the former, but I may be wrong.
>> =20
>> I have, for my convenience, cut and pasted here two comments to follow up=
 on as well as a read of -20/-21.
>> =20
>> =20
>> > Section 9.5. The whole concept of router signalling modem should be
>> > brought out earlier in the document. The paragraph starting
>> > =E2=80=9CConcerning layer 3 addresses=E2=80=9D is a particularly jarrin=
g one in the
>> > mixture of protocol and data.
>> =20
>> This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but this paragraph remains.
>>  Can you revisit?
>=20
> I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to revisit & address the above. Perhaps y=
ou could suggest som text?=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Stan
>=20
>> =20
>> > Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delete MAY, that=E2=80=99s what z=
ero
>> > means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs to be elsewhere, and in
>> > any case it=E2=80=99s overruled by RECOMMENDED i.e. SHOULD two lines do=
wn.)
>> =20
>> Sorry, where?
>> =20
>> =20
>> --
>>=20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
_
>>=20
>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo=
w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>> www.baesystems.com/ai
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>=20
>> =20
>> ********************************************************************
>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>> ********************************************************************
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Sorry, I wasn't clear. Those are bits f=
rom Rick commenting on my comments that I couldn't work out what, if anythin=
g, my response to was &nbsp;without reading -20. But to avoid them being los=
t in the various postings I abstracted them to one place to reconsider. Righ=
t now I have no idea if my reaction will be I'm OK with what's in -20 or hav=
e a suggestion.<br><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D=
"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></=
div></div><div><br>On 10 Mar 2016, at 20:42, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><di=
v><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div><br>On Mar 10, 201=
6, at 11:33 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearl=
ove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&nbsp;wrote:<br><br></d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">So far I haven=E2=80=99t looked at -20 (and I=E2=80=99=
ve heard a rumour of a -21 coming Real Soon Now) I=E2=80=99ve just looked at=
 comments on comments. Based on the comments alone, looking good on what I=E2=
=80=99ve indicated. (Of course not agreed with everything, but
 I haven=E2=80=99t seen anything I felt more strongly about disagreed with, w=
ith one partial exception.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The one I think I=E2=80=99d just take advice on now r=
ather than produce another cycle is the IANA section. It=E2=80=99s easy to d=
rop a line to them saying something like =E2=80=9Cmust an IANA section be fu=
lly self-contained, or may it include references to tables
 elsewhere in the document=E2=80=9D. I think the answer is the former, but I=
 may be wrong.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have, for my convenience, cut and pasted here two c=
omments to follow up on as well as a read of -20/-21.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Section 9.5. The whole concept of router sign=
alling modem should be
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; brought out earlier in the document. The para=
graph starting
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; =E2=80=9CConcerning layer 3 addresses=E2=80=9D=
 is a particularly jarring one in the
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; mixture of protocol and data.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">This has been heavily reworked in draft-20, but th=
is paragraph remains.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&nbsp;Can you revisit?</p></div></div></blockquote=
><div><br></div>I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to revisit &amp; address th=
e above. Perhaps you could suggest som text?&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Regard=
s,</div><div>Stan</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D=
"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; Section 10., second paragraph, line 3, delete=
 MAY, that=E2=80=99s what zero
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; means, not an option. (Any use of MAY needs t=
o be elsewhere, and in
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">&gt; any case it=E2=80=99s overruled by RECOMMENDE=
D i.e. SHOULD two lines down.)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">Sorry, where?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#007=
E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">--
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"font=
-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#007=
E7E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Christopher Dearlove<br>
Senior Principal Engineer<br>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;;color:#BEBEBE;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">____________________________=
______________________________________________<br>
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot=
;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">T</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&qu=
ot;;color:#7D7D7D;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194 &nb=
sp;| &nbsp;<b>E:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span style=3D"color:bl=
ue">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#00007E;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sa=
ns-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">BAE Systems Applied=
 Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex C=
M2 8HN.<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span style=3D"color:#3A8B92">www.b=
aesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">BAE=
 Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3A8B92;=
mso-fareast-language:EN-GB">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildfo=
rd, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<p>********************************************************************<br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</p>

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From: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@airbus.com>
To: "'Ratliff, Stanley'" <sratliff@idirect.net>, "'Rick Taylor'" <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "TAYLOR, Rick" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 08:31:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Hi Stan,

>From: Ratliff, Stanley [mailto:sratliff@idirect.net]
>
>Thanks. RLQ is *NOT* a percentage. If that's in DLEP-20, then I missed t=
he
>update, and I oppose.
>
>Regards,
>Stan

I don't have particularly strong feelings on the matter, but my only ques=
tion would
be that, if it isn't a percentage, why not make the range 0-255 ? (and wh=
y pick 0-100 specifically?)

>> -----Original Message-----

[..snip..]

>> Rick,
>>
>> Thanks for the swift turnaround in getting DLEP-20 out.
>>
>> Only 1 NIT : from a quick peruse, the change to RLQT being a percentag=
e
>> wasn't also done for RLQR.

[..snip..]
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@airbus.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 4:31 AM, MATTY, Steven <steven.matty@airbus.com>
wrote:

> Hi Stan,
>
> >From: Ratliff, Stanley [mailto:sratliff@idirect.net]
> >
> >Thanks. RLQ is *NOT* a percentage. If that's in DLEP-20, then I missed the
> >update, and I oppose.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Stan
>
> I don't have particularly strong feelings on the matter, but my only
> question would
> be that, if it isn't a percentage, why not make the range 0-255 ? (and why
> pick 0-100 specifically?)
>

For compatibility. The definition of RLQR/RLQT was lifted from RFC5578.
Keeping this metric consistent allows for RFC5578 implementations to
produce metrics in a consistent manner.

Regards,
Stan



>
> >> -----Original Message-----
>
> [..snip..]
>
> >> Rick,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the swift turnaround in getting DLEP-20 out.
> >>
> >> Only 1 NIT : from a quick peruse, the change to RLQT being a percentage
> >> wasn't also done for RLQR.
>
> [..snip..]
> This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential and/or
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 4:31 AM, MATTY, Steven <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:steven.matty@airbus.com" target=3D"_blank">steven.matty@air=
bus.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Stan,<br=
>
<br>
&gt;From: Ratliff, Stanley [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sratliff@idirect.net">=
sratliff@idirect.net</a>]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Thanks. RLQ is *NOT* a percentage. If that&#39;s in DLEP-20, then I mis=
sed the<br>
&gt;update, and I oppose.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Regards,<br>
&gt;Stan<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t have particularly strong feelings on the matter, but my only qu=
estion would<br>
be that, if it isn&#39;t a percentage, why not make the range 0-255 ? (and =
why pick 0-100 specifically?)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For compa=
tibility. The definition of RLQR/RLQT was lifted from RFC5578. Keeping this=
 metric consistent allows for RFC5578 implementations to produce metrics in=
 a consistent manner.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<br>Stan</div>=
<div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
<br>
[..snip..]<br>
<br>
&gt;&gt; Rick,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks for the swift turnaround in getting DLEP-20 out.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Only 1 NIT : from a quick peruse, the change to RLQT being a perce=
ntage<br>
&gt;&gt; wasn&#39;t also done for RLQR.<br>
<br>
[..snip..]<br>
This email (including any attachments) may contain confidential and/or priv=
ileged information or information otherwise protected from disclosure. If y=
ou are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately, do=
 not copy this message or any attachments and do not use it for any purpose=
 or disclose its content to any person, but delete this message and any att=
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 falsified.<br>
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Emails to Airbus Defence and Space Limited may be processed, recorded and m=
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Airbus Defence and Space Limited, Registered in England and Wales No. 24492=
59<br>
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<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
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Hello Christopher,

> Am 08.03.2016 um 12:59 schrieb Christopher Dearlove =
<chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>:
>=20
> I'm reading this on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it =
better for longer comment.
>=20
> But there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, =
two things in 5444. One is about formats, one is about multiplexing.
>=20
> Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as formats. =
Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general 5444 =
formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to decide what to make it =
do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the formatter, or not =
at all. (Personally I have some inside, some outside.)
>=20
> The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That =
takes 5444 formatted messages (and  possibly some other things) and =
forms 5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns =
messages as delivered to it (hop count and limit apart of course). =
Otherwise security features in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't =
prevent the multiplexer modifying the message before putting it on the =
wire, that just needs to be reversible. And obvious example is if you =
implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it adds them, =
it also needs to remove them before handing the message to the protocol. =
(You may instead put this in the protocol.)

Exactly. All I wanted to say was that my mental model looked something =
like this:

                    +--------------------------------+
                    | +------------+  +------------+ |
+-------------+     | |            |  |            | |
|             |     | |            |  |            | |  send
| AODVv2/     +-------> Format     +--> Multiplex  +------->
| OLSRv2/...  |     | |            |  |            | |
|             |     | |            |  |            | |
+-------------+     | +------------+  +------------+ |
                    |            RFC5444             |
                    +--------------------------------+

=E2=80=A6Which is why I thought we=E2=80=99d only need to specify the =
transaction marked by the first arrow. In previous E-Mails about the =
5444-usage draft, I=E2=80=99ve criticised that it=E2=80=99s not entirely =
clear how to do that correctly, and I think that this confusion is an =
illustration of the problem I was trying to address=E2=80=A6 =
Unfortunately, I haven=E2=80=99t gotten round to reading -02 yet, so I =
don=E2=80=99t know if this may have been resolved already.

>=20
> Yes, I think the usage document could gain from adding this. Note, =
that's personal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to that yet. But =
largely because I haven't asked them yet (with one partial exception).
>=20
> The points I think are:
> - Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.
> - Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation =
optional.
> - Multiplexer must deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may =
modify reversibly. 7182 example (could implement message level in =
multiplexer, must implement packet level there).

Additionally, I was wondering if you=E2=80=99d had a chance to look at =
my suggested changes by now? I=E2=80=99d like to fix this as soon as =
possible, and I want to make sure I get it right this time. :)

Best regards,
Lotte

>=20
> --=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>=20
> On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink =
<lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de <mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Hello Christopher,
>>=20
>> Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which =
won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than =
attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at =
the earliest.
>>> =20
>>> But one to kick off.
>>> =20
>>> The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, =
it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives =
messages from there. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s =
the most important.
>>> =20
>>> The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses =
and so on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets =
(which may contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go =
one hop.
>>> =20
>>> There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most =
obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =
=E2=80=9Cplease try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there =
are any additional requests that should be supported, and are not =
incompatible with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good =
opportunity to get those in.
>>> =20
>>> But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a =
whole or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:
>>> =20
>>>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple =
protocols.
>>>    An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>>    certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.
>>> =20
>>> I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the =
role of the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from =
addresses and attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole =
message from a protocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that =
I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opinion, though a quite strong one. A =
protocol might apply some sort of specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99=
t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 =
ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove them before the protocol =
gets the packet again.)
>>=20
>> True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I =
don't), what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be =
reshuffled during message creation, but please pay attention that some =
things MUST be kept in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 =
message." This is especially important for RERR messages, which could =
easily get chopped up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is =
small.
>>=20
>> If we change that paragraph to
>>=20
>>    [RFC5444 <>] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple =
protocols.
>>    An [RFC5444 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>] implementation =
MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>    certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.
>>   =20
>> and the language of, say,  7.1.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1.3>. =
RREQ Regeneration from
>>=20
>>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>]
>>    message (see Section 8 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8>) =
which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
>>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  =
However,
>>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>>=20
>> to something like
>>=20
>>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>]
>>    message (see Section 8 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8>), =
which is handed to the RFC5444 multiplexer
>>    for further processing.
>>    By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message =
to LL-MANET-
>>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  =
However,
>>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>>=20
>> (and the same thing for 7.2.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2.3>. =
RREP Regeneration, 6.5 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5>. =
Message Transmission, etc.), would that resolve the issue?
>>=20
>>> =20
>>> This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage =
draft. If it gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself =
and the rest of the author team.
>>> =20
>>> So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the =
multiplexer. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always =
better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does.
>>=20
>> I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of =
the "RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", =
which is why I thought the AODVv2<->RFC5444 interaction that should be =
described clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message =
creation process what a message looks like (and where it should be =
sent). I've assumed that this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all =
control to 5444, so obviously it wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, =
it would instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wasn't aware that this =
must be stated explicitly.
>>=20
>> I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should be =
clarified in the 5444-usage draft...
>>=20
>> With kind regards,
>> Lotte Steenbrink
>>=20
>>> But unfortunately the draft still has material that contradicts that =
model, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two =
paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential change.
>>> =20
>>> --
>>>=20
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> Senior Principal Engineer
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>>>=20
>>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>>> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> ********************************************************************
>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>>> ********************************************************************
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>


--Apple-Mail=_1F887F9B-2EAA-4ACF-9AFB-A7B682EF4331
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hello Christopher,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
08.03.2016 um 12:59 schrieb Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" =
class=3D"">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">I'm reading this =
on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it better for longer =
comment.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But =
there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, two =
things in 5444. One is about formats, one is about =
multiplexing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as =
formats. Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general =
5444 formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to decide what to =
make it do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the =
formatter, or not at all. (Personally I have some inside, some =
outside.)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That takes =
5444 formatted messages (and &nbsp;possibly some other things) and forms =
5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns messages =
as delivered to it (hop count and limit apart of course). Otherwise =
security features in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't prevent =
the multiplexer modifying the message before putting it on the wire, =
that just needs to be reversible. And obvious example is if you =
implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it adds them, =
it also needs to remove them before handing the message to the protocol. =
(You may instead put this in the =
protocol.)</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Exactly. All I wanted to say was that my mental =
model looked something like this:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
+--------------------------------+</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier"=
 class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; | +------------+ &nbsp;+------------+ =
|</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">+-------------+ =
&nbsp; &nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| |</font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
| &nbsp; &nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| | =
&nbsp;send</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">| AODVv2/ =
&nbsp; &nbsp; +-------&gt; Format &nbsp; &nbsp; +--&gt; Multiplex =
&nbsp;+-------&gt;</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">| =
OLSRv2/... &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
|</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
|</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">+-------------+ =
&nbsp; &nbsp; | +------------+ &nbsp;+------------+ =
|</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;RFC5444 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; |</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
+--------------------------------+</font></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>=E2=80=A6Which is why I thought we=E2=80=99d =
only need to specify the transaction marked by the first arrow. In =
previous E-Mails about the 5444-usage draft, I=E2=80=99ve criticised =
that it=E2=80=99s not entirely clear how to do that correctly, and I =
think that this confusion is an illustration of the problem I was trying =
to address=E2=80=A6 Unfortunately, I haven=E2=80=99t gotten round to =
reading -02 yet, so I don=E2=80=99t know if this may have been resolved =
already.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, I think the usage document could =
gain from adding this. Note, that's personal only, my co-authors haven't =
agreed to that yet. But largely because I haven't asked them yet (with =
one partial exception).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The points I think are:</div><div class=3D"">- Two things in =
5444. Format and multiplex.</div><div class=3D"">- Generic =
formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation =
optional.</div><div class=3D"">- Multiplexer must deliver messages as =
sent (hop exception). But may modify reversibly. 7182 example (could =
implement message level in multiplexer, must implement packet level =
there).</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Additionally, I was wondering if you=E2=80=99d had a =
chance to look at my suggested changes by now? I=E2=80=99d like to fix =
this as soon as possible, and I want to make sure I get it right this =
time. :)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Best =
regards,</div><div>Lotte</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">--&nbsp;<div class=3D"">Christopher =
Dearlove</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" =
class=3D"">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DWindows-1252" class=3D"">Hello Christopher,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 =
schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments =
(which won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than =
attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at =
the earliest.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">But one to kick off.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The architecture mandated by 5498 is =
that AODVv2 creates messages, it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In =
due course it receives messages from there. There are some other =
details, but that=E2=80=99s the most important.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The 5444 =
multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses and so on. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets (which may contain =
multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are =
other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obviously which =
interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =E2=80=9Cplease =
try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there are any =
additional requests that should be supported, and are not incompatible =
with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity =
to get those in.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D =
(as a whole or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for =
multiple protocols.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [RFC5444] =
multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certain message elements to reduce control =
message overhead.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s =
the role of the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from =
addresses and attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole =
message from a protocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that =
I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opinion, though a quite strong one. A =
protocol might apply some sort of specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99=
t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 =
ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove them before the protocol =
gets the packet again.)</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">True. If I remember it correctly =
(Co-Authors, please stop me if I don't), what we were trying to say was =
"The message contents MAY be reshuffled during message creation, but =
please pay attention that some things MUST be kept in one message in =
order to form a coherent AODVv2 message." This is especially important =
for RERR messages, which could easily get chopped up into multiple =
messages if the underlying MTU is small.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we change that paragraph =
to</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC5444" id=3D"ref-RFC5444" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>] provides =
a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>] implementation MAY choose to =
optimize the content of
   certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   =
</pre></div><div class=3D"">and the language of, say, &nbsp;<a =
class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.1.3" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1=
.3" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; =
text-decoration: none;">7.1.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  RREQ =
Regeneration&nbsp;</span>from</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message is used to create a =
corresponding [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8" =
class=3D"">Section 8</a>) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">to something like</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message is used to create a =
corresponding [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8" =
class=3D"">Section 8</a>), which is handed to the&nbsp;RFC5444 =
multiplexer</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   for =
further processing.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  =
 By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message to =
LL-MANET-</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   =
Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">(and the same thing for&nbsp;<a =
class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.2.3" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2=
.3" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; =
text-decoration: none;">7.2.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  RREP =
Regeneration</span>,&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-6.5" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5=
" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; =
text-decoration: none;">6.5</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  Message =
Transmission,</span>&nbsp;etc.), would that resolve the issue?</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is =
probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. If it =
gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself and the rest =
of the author team.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the =
multiplexer. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always =
better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it =
does.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I've always assumed the 5444 message =
creation process to be part of the "RFC5444 component" rather than part =
of the "AODVv2 component", which is why I thought the =
AODVv2&lt;-&gt;RFC5444 interaction that should be described clearly was =
the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation process what a =
message looks like (and where it should be sent). I've assumed that this =
is the part where AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously it =
wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer =
to do so. I wasn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm not sure if this is =
a subtlety or a misconception that should be clarified in the 5444-usage =
draft...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With =
kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Lotte Steenbrink</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""> But unfortunately the =
draft still has material that contradicts that model, which needs to go. =
In particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs of section 6.5. =
This is an essential change.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
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0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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From nobody Mon Mar 14 10:48:36 2016
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From: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
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To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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Hi Christopher,

> Am 14.03.2016 um 18:13 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>:
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s the right picture, but I=E2=80=99m =
not going to try to draw the right one.
> =20

I never said it was, I just wanted to illustrate where I got confused. =
But I guess that discussion is off-topic in this thread=E2=80=A6 :)

Best regards,
Lotte

> Rather the protocol needs to construct a message. To do that it may =
use a library that enables that. But the message is returned by the =
library to the protocols.
> =20
> Why? For a start, the protocol may not have finished with the message. =
It might construct it in stages. In particular it might hand it off to =
another protocol to add to it.
> =20
> For example consider that NHDP creates HELLO messages. Then OLSRv2 =
adds material to those HELLO messages (e.g. MPR TLVs).
> =20
> Then the protocol passes the final message to the multiplexer.
> =20
> Note that the multiplexer is a defined process. Formatting a message =
is not. While a library to do that is a natural way to work, it=E2=80=99s =
not mandatory. I know that the authors of the 5444 usage draft all have =
produced such libraries - but they are different in their exact models, =
not just their code.
> =20
> And, as indicted in the usage draft, you can write a library that =
attempts to optimise your messages. Or rely on the code calling the =
library to do things optimally itself.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de =
<mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>]=20
> Sent: 14 March 2016 16:49
> To: Christopher Dearlove
> Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>; Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
> =20
> =20
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external partner or the internet.
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s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> Hello Christopher,
> =20
> Am 08.03.2016 um 12:59 schrieb Christopher Dearlove =
<chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk <mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>>:
> =20
> I'm reading this on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it =
better for longer comment.
> =20
> But there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, =
two things in 5444. One is about formats, one is about multiplexing.
> =20
> Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as formats. =
Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general 5444 =
formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to decide what to make it =
do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the formatter, or not =
at all. (Personally I have some inside, some outside.)
> =20
> The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That =
takes 5444 formatted messages (and  possibly some other things) and =
forms 5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns =
messages as delivered to it (hop count and limit apart of course). =
Otherwise security features in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't =
prevent the multiplexer modifying the message before putting it on the =
wire, that just needs to be reversible. And obvious example is if you =
implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it adds them, =
it also needs to remove them before handing the message to the protocol. =
(You may instead put this in the protocol.)
> =20
> Exactly. All I wanted to say was that my mental model looked something =
like this:
> =20
>                     +--------------------------------+
>                     | +------------+  +------------+ |
> +-------------+     | |            |  |            | |
> |             |     | |            |  |            | |  send
> | AODVv2/     +-------> Format     +--> Multiplex  +------->
> | OLSRv2/...  |     | |            |  |            | |
> |             |     | |            |  |            | |
> +-------------+     | +------------+  +------------+ |
>                     |            RFC5444             |
>                     +--------------------------------+
> =20
> =E2=80=A6Which is why I thought we=E2=80=99d only need to specify the =
transaction marked by the first arrow. In previous E-Mails about the =
5444-usage draft, I=E2=80=99ve criticised that it=E2=80=99s not entirely =
clear how to do that correctly, and I think that this confusion is an =
illustration of the problem I was trying to address=E2=80=A6 =
Unfortunately, I haven=E2=80=99t gotten round to reading -02 yet, so I =
don=E2=80=99t know if this may have been resolved already.
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Yes, I think the usage document could gain from adding this. Note, =
that's personal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to that yet. But =
largely because I haven't asked them yet (with one partial exception).
> =20
> The points I think are:
> - Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.
> - Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation =
optional.
> - Multiplexer must deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may =
modify reversibly. 7182 example (could implement message level in =
multiplexer, must implement packet level there).
> =20
> Additionally, I was wondering if you=E2=80=99d had a chance to look at =
my suggested changes by now? I=E2=80=99d like to fix this as soon as =
possible, and I want to make sure I get it right this time. :)
> =20
> Best regards,
> Lotte
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>=20
> On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink =
<lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de <mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hello Christopher,
> =20
> Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
>=20
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which =
won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than =
attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at =
the earliest.
> =20
> But one to kick off.
> =20
> The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, it =
passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives messages =
from there. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s the most =
important.
> =20
> The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses =
and so on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets =
(which may contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go =
one hop.
> =20
> There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most =
obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =
=E2=80=9Cplease try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there =
are any additional requests that should be supported, and are not =
incompatible with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good =
opportunity to get those in.
> =20
> But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a =
whole or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:
> =20
>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
>    An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
>    certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.
> =20
> I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the role =
of the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from addresses =
and attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole message =
from a protocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that I=E2=80=99ve =
expressed that as an opinion, though a quite strong one. A protocol =
might apply some sort of specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99t let =
the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 ICV =
and/or timestamp, but it will then remove them before the protocol gets =
the packet again.)
> =20
> True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I =
don't), what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be =
reshuffled during message creation, but please pay attention that some =
things MUST be kept in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 =
message." This is especially important for RERR messages, which could =
easily get chopped up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is =
small.
> =20
> If we change that paragraph to
> =20
>    [RFC5444 <>] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple =
protocols.
>    An [RFC5444 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>] implementation =
MAY choose to optimize the content of
>    certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.
>   =20
> and the language of, say,   <>7.1.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1.3>. =
RREQ Regeneration from
> =20
>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>]
>    message (see Section 8 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8>) =
which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  =
However,
>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
> =20
> to something like
> =20
>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>]
>    message (see Section 8 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8>), =
which is handed to the RFC5444 multiplexer
>    for further processing.
>    By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message =
to LL-MANET-
>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  =
However,
>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
> =20
> (and the same thing for  <>7.2.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2.3>. =
RREP Regeneration,  <>6.5 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5>. =
Message Transmission, etc.), would that resolve the issue?
>=20
>=20
> =20
> This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage =
draft. If it gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself =
and the rest of the author team.
> =20
> So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the =
multiplexer. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always =
better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does.
> =20
> I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of =
the "RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", =
which is why I thought the AODVv2<->RFC5444 interaction that should be =
described clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message =
creation process what a message looks like (and where it should be =
sent). I've assumed that this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all =
control to 5444, so obviously it wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, =
it would instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wasn't aware that this =
must be stated explicitly.
> =20
> I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should be =
clarified in the 5444-usage draft...
> =20
> With kind regards,
> Lotte Steenbrink
>=20
>=20
> But unfortunately the draft still has material that contradicts that =
model, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two =
paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential change.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
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> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
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> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
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--Apple-Mail=_BF5C297B-8CD9-4845-AEE7-54E638762734
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Christopher,</div><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
14.03.2016 um 18:13 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s the right picture, but I=E2=80=99m =
not going to try to draw the right one.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I never said it was, I just wanted to illustrate =
where I got confused. But I guess that discussion is off-topic in this =
thread=E2=80=A6 :)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Best =
regards,</div><div>Lotte</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Rather the protocol =
needs to construct a message. To do that it may use a library that =
enables that. But the message is returned by the library to the =
protocols.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Why? For a start, the =
protocol may not have finished with the message. It might construct it =
in stages. In particular it might hand it off to another protocol to add =
to it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">For example consider =
that NHDP creates HELLO messages. Then OLSRv2 adds material to those =
HELLO messages (e.g. MPR TLVs).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Then the protocol =
passes the final message to the multiplexer.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Note that the =
multiplexer is a defined process. Formatting a message is not. While a =
library to do that is a natural way to work, it=E2=80=99s not mandatory. =
I know that the authors of the 5444 usage draft all have produced such =
libraries - but they are different in their exact models, not just their =
code.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">And, as indicted in the =
usage draft, you can write a library that attempts to optimise your =
messages. Or rely on the code calling the library to do things optimally =
itself.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lotte Steenbrink [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>14 =
March 2016 16:49<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a>; Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first =
comment (5444 multiplexer)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hello Christopher,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Am 08.03.2016 um =
12:59 schrieb Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I'm reading this on a =
phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it better for longer =
comment.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">But there are, and I think this is a potential source =
for confusion, two things in 5444. One is about formats, one is about =
multiplexing.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, =
but as formats. Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a =
general 5444 formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to decide =
what to make it do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the =
formatter, or not at all. (Personally I have some inside, some =
outside.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and =
denultiplexer). That takes 5444 formatted messages (and &nbsp;possibly =
some other things) and forms 5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 =
multiplexer returns messages as delivered to it (hop count and limit =
apart of course). Otherwise security features in the protocol may fail. =
Note that doesn't prevent the multiplexer modifying the message before =
putting it on the wire, that just needs to be reversible. And obvious =
example is if you implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, =
if it adds them, it also needs to remove them before handing the message =
to the protocol. (You may instead put this in the protocol.)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Exactly. All I wanted to say was that my mental model =
looked something like this:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; +--------------------------------+</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | =
+------------+ &nbsp;+------------+ |</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">+-------------+ &nbsp; &nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| =
|</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; | =
| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| | &nbsp;send</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| AODVv2/ =
&nbsp; &nbsp; +-------&gt; Format &nbsp; &nbsp; +--&gt; Multiplex =
&nbsp;+-------&gt;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| OLSRv2/... &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| |</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">| &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; | | &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;| |</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">+-------------+ &nbsp; &nbsp; | +------------+ =
&nbsp;+------------+ |</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp;RFC5444 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
|</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; +--------------------------------+</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=A6Which is why =
I thought we=E2=80=99d only need to specify the transaction marked by =
the first arrow. In previous E-Mails about the 5444-usage draft, I=E2=80=99=
ve criticised that it=E2=80=99s not entirely clear how to do that =
correctly, and I think that this confusion is an illustration of the =
problem I was trying to address=E2=80=A6 Unfortunately, I haven=E2=80=99t =
gotten round to reading -02 yet, so I don=E2=80=99t know if this may =
have been resolved already.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Yes, I think the usage document could gain from =
adding this. Note, that's personal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to =
that yet. But largely because I haven't asked them yet (with one partial =
exception).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">The points I think are:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">- Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">- Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. =
Optimisation optional.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">- Multiplexer must =
deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may modify reversibly. =
7182 example (could implement message level in multiplexer, must =
implement packet level there).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Additionally, I was wondering if you=E2=80=99d had a chance =
to look at my suggested changes by now? I=E2=80=99d like to fix this as =
soon as possible, and I want to make sure I get it right this time. =
:)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Lotte<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">--&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Hello Christopher,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments =
(which won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than =
attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at =
the earliest.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">But one to kick off.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 =
creates messages, it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course =
it receives messages from there. There are some other details, but =
that=E2=80=99s the most important.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, =
multicast addresses and so on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, =
because its packets (which may contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 =
and elsewhere) only go one hop.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are other requests that can be made to the =
multiplexer, most obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but =
also things like =E2=80=9Cplease try to keep these messages together=E2=80=
=9D. If there are any additional requests that should be supported, and =
are not incompatible with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is =
a good opportunity to get those in.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =
=E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a whole or part word) only appears =
twice, both in the paragraph:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for =
multiple protocols.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to =
optimize the content of</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier =
New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certain message elements to reduce =
control message overhead.</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that =
that=E2=80=99s the role of the (subtlely different) 5444 message =
creation process from addresses and attributes. I think the multiplexer =
itself, given a whole message from a protocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be =
modifying it. Note that I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opinion, =
though a quite strong one. A protocol might apply some sort of =
specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99t let the multiplexer destroy =
that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 ICV and/or timestamp, but it =
will then remove them before the protocol gets the packet again.)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please =
stop me if I don't), what we were trying to say was "The message =
contents MAY be reshuffled during message creation, but please pay =
attention that some things MUST be kept in one message in order to form =
a coherent AODVv2 message." This is especially important for RERR =
messages, which could easily get chopped up into multiple messages if =
the underlying MTU is small.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">If we change that paragraph to<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC5444" id=3D"ref-RFC5444" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>] provides =
a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized =
Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>] =
implementation MAY choose to optimize the content of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certain elements during message creation to =
reduce control message overhead.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">and the language of, say, &nbsp;<a name=3D"section-7.1.3" =
class=3D""></a><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1=
.3" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">7.1.3</span></b></a><b class=3D"">. RREQ =
Regeneration&nbsp;</b>from<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; This AODVv2 message =
is used to create a corresponding [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized =
Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Section =
8</a>) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 =
operation.&nbsp; However,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the regenerated RREQ =
can be unicast to the next hop address of the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">to something like<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; This =
AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" title=3D"&quot;Generalized =
Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message Format&quot;" style=3D"color:=
 purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Section =
8</a>), which is handed to the&nbsp;RFC5444 multiplexer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; for further processing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; By default, the multiplexer is instructed to =
multicast the message to LL-MANET-<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.&nbsp; =
However,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the regenerated RREQ =
can be unicast to the next hop address of the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">(and the same thing for&nbsp;<a =
name=3D"section-7.2.3" class=3D""></a><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2=
.3" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">7.2.3</span></b></a><b class=3D"">. RREP =
Regeneration</b>,&nbsp;<a name=3D"section-6.5" class=3D""></a><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">6.5</span></b></a><b class=3D"">. Message =
Transmission,</b>&nbsp;etc.), would that resolve the issue?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 =
usage draft. If it gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to =
myself and the rest of the author team.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 =
interacts with the multiplexer. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though =
it=E2=80=99s always better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it =
does.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process =
to be part of the "RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 =
component", which is why I thought the AODVv2&lt;-&gt;RFC5444 =
interaction that should be described clearly was the part where AODVv2 =
tells the 5444 message creation process what a message looks like (and =
where it should be sent). I've assumed that this is the part where =
AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously it wouldn't =
multicast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer to do =
so. I wasn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a =
misconception that should be clarified in the 5444-usage draft...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">With kind regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Lotte Steenbrink<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">But unfortunately the =
draft still has material that contradicts that model, which needs to go. =
In particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs of section 6.5. =
This is an essential change.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior =
Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence =
Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
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From nobody Mon Mar 14 15:49:35 2016
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
To: "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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So I have some proposed editorial changes to the document, including:
1) misc minor editorial fixes
2) move all RFC2119 language from sec 3 to 9. 
3) Align section 4 and 9 so requirements are stated once.  High level
processing logic consolidated in 4, detailed packet formatting is in 9.
4) Cleanup of the IANA Section to align with related RFCs

Changes recommended but not made:
 - why defined both participants and peers
   s/DLEP Participants/DLEP Peer
or
   s/DLEP Participants/DLEP node
 (also s/implementation/<the same>)

 - make Connection Point Data Items required in Peer Offer Signals

Based on the edits I also have the following question:
- When a sending a peer offer signal is use of the well know dlep port
as the source port number a requirement or a recommendation?

I don't want to spam the list, so uploaded the changes to a temp
directory.  To see the diffs click:
http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?difftype=--hwdiff&url1=http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-20.txt&url2=http://labn.net/tmp/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-20-lb.txt

Lou



On 3/10/2016 2:44 PM, Lou Berger wrote:
> Rick,
>
> On 3/10/2016 12:00 PM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>> The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:
>>
>> * Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each 
>> of'/'any of').
>> * Renumbering the status code values.
> >From my perspective, since this is a minor change it doesn't make too
> much of a difference for my comments.  I should have comments to you on
> Monday (worst case Tuesday.).
>
> Lou
>



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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 08:29:40 +0100
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
> I don=E2=80=99t think that=E2=80=99s the right picture, but I=E2=80=99m n=
ot going to try to draw the
> right one.

The "right" picture highly depends on the design of the Multiplexer API.

I prefer to hand of something like a "cooking receipe" (this message
TLVs, this addresses with these address TLVs) to the library and it
does the rest of the work... this allows for a simpler "work flow",
but complicates the design of the API, especially for things like
message and packet signatures.

Henning


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Subject: [manet] SMARTCOMP 2016 | Call for WiP/Demo Papers - Deadline EXTENDED to March 25, 2016
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[Apologies for possible multiple copies]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

               Call for WORK-IN-PROGRESS papers and DEMOs

                             SMARTCOMP 2016
                  Second IEEE International Conference on
			   Smart Computing

                      http://www.smart-comp.org/

                            May 18-20, 2016
                        St. Louis, Missouri, USA


***  WIP/DEMO PAPER SUBMISSION DEADLINE (EXTENDED): March 25, 2016   *****

                 Conference Proceedings in IEEE Xplore

------------------------------------------------------------------------


The 2nd IEEE International Conference on Smart Computing (SMARTCOMP
2016) draws upon many application disciplines such as transportation,
energy, environmental protection, resource management, healthcare,
security, banking, entertainment, and social media. In addition to
full-length technical papers, SMARTCOMP welcomes Work in Progress (WIP)
papers and technical demonstrations(DEMOs)showing innovative and
original research in the areas of smart computing. Submissions from both
industry and academia are strongly encouraged.

WIP papers are expected to report on early or ongoing research
activities, while DEMO papers are expected to present innovative
applications and tools.

The WIP and DEMO sessions will provide a forum to discuss novel ideas
and emerging results, presenting innovative applications and tools, and
bring about novel research questions, approaches, and directions.


TOPICS:
Submissions should be targeted to one of the following major areas:

- Smart Cyber-Physical Environments and
Energy/Water/Agriculture/Transportation/Healthcare/Banking Infrastructure
- Security, Privacy, and Economics in Smart Environments
- Smart Computing Technologies
- Future Smart Computing Paradigms
- Smart Human Environments, Health, Entertainment, and Social Activities
- Smart Energy Management and Analytics



SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:

WIP and Demo papers may be no more than 3 pages in length, including
figures, tables, and references.

WIP papers are expected to present early or ongoing research activities.
Novel approaches and preliminary results are especially appreciated.

Demo papers should explicitly state what will be demonstrated to the
audience, and how the attendees will be able to interact, enjoy, and
experiment.

The submitted manuscripts will be reviewed by members of the SMARTCOMP
2016 Technical Program Committee. All the accepted papers will be
presented as posters and included in the conference proceedings. At
least one author of each accepted paper must register and attend the
conference to present the work. The accepted papers will be published in
the conference proceedings by IEEE, and will be included in the Digital
Library.

Authors are requested to submit original, unpublished manuscripts in
standard IEEE proceedings format in PDF. All submissions must be typeset
in double-column IEEE format using 10pt fonts on US letter paper, with
all fonts embedded. Submitted papers must include the contact
information of all the authors. Please make sure you use the latest
version of the templates to prepare your submissions. Due to the short
interval between the notification of acceptance and the camera-ready
deadline, we strongly encourage authors to follow the camera-ready
formatting guidelines as close as possible even for the initial abstract
submission.


The IEEE LaTeX and Microsoft Word templates for conferences can be found
at IEEE Manuscript Templates for Conference Proceedings at
http://www.ieee.org/conferences_events/conferences/publishing/templates.html

Further information for authors may be found at the IEEE Computer
Society Information for Authors for Conference Publishing Services:
http://www.computer.org/web/cs-cps/authors

Submissions must be made via EasyChair:
https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=smartcomp2016
When submitting, please select the appropriate Track for your paper
(i.e., WIP or Demo).


IMPORTANT DATES:

Paper submissions:          	March 25, 2016
Notification of acceptance: 	April 05, 2016
Camera-ready copy due:      	April 15, 2016
Conference date:         	May 18-20, 2016


WIP/DEMO CO-CHAIRS:
Hassan Ghasemzadeh (hassan@eecs.wsu.edu), Washington State University, USA
Sejun Song (songsej@umkc.edu), University of Missouri-Kansas City, USA


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP r=eview
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Thank you Lou.  I will have a chat with Stan and integrate with what we =0A=
have already.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 14/03/16 22:49, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
> So I have some proposed editorial changes to the document, including:=0A=
> 1) misc minor editorial fixes=0A=
> 2) move all RFC2119 language from sec 3 to 9.=0A=
> 3) Align section 4 and 9 so requirements are stated once.  High level=0A=
> processing logic consolidated in 4, detailed packet formatting is in 9.=
=0A=
> 4) Cleanup of the IANA Section to align with related RFCs=0A=
>=0A=
> Changes recommended but not made:=0A=
>   - why defined both participants and peers=0A=
>     s/DLEP Participants/DLEP Peer=0A=
> or=0A=
>     s/DLEP Participants/DLEP node=0A=
>   (also s/implementation/<the same>)=0A=
>=0A=
>   - make Connection Point Data Items required in Peer Offer Signals=0A=
>=0A=
> Based on the edits I also have the following question:=0A=
> - When a sending a peer offer signal is use of the well know dlep port=0A=
> as the source port number a requirement or a recommendation?=0A=
>=0A=
> I don't want to spam the list, so uploaded the changes to a temp=0A=
> directory.  To see the diffs click:=0A=
> http://tools.ietf.org//rfcdiff?difftype=3D--hwdiff&url1=3Dhttp://www.ietf=
.org/id/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-20.txt&url2=3Dhttp://labn.net/tmp/draft-ietf-=
manet-dlep-20-lb.txt=0A=
>=0A=
> Lou=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> On 3/10/2016 2:44 PM, Lou Berger wrote:=0A=
>> Rick,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On 3/10/2016 12:00 PM, Rick Taylor wrote:=0A=
>>> The current diff between draft-20 and what we have is:=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> * Some minor text improvements from Chris D's last review (e.g. 'each=
=0A=
>>> of'/'any of').=0A=
>>> * Renumbering the status code values.=0A=
>> >From my perspective, since this is a minor change it doesn't make too=
=0A=
>> much of a difference for my comments.  I should have comments to you on=
=0A=
>> Monday (worst case Tuesday.).=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Lou=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> manet mailing list=0A=
> manet@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


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From: "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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References: <842811b9f2ec4385b25bfdc02f6bdb09@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <CAGnRvuoqWqAk8bEsurdYU-546BO=LNtFA1Ywr_qnNyaz9jPNiw@mail.gmail.com> <30lejepapqucojc0oo0juiov.1444920593548@email.android.com> <CALtoyo=0cw3zjRwiMEASO25kOo9jDJEWDggMGDToSWvrGtSWTQ@mail.gmail.com> <6cf459def84e464a92a94a321b9b4adc@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EB381@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <d4c2cfd4507d4644909a72eceba534c2@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EB9B9@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <051ad977f5a5488b9622ccb5ef25883c@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EBCA1@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <b0c57bcbb28b4dc587fe53dc5bf769bc@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Rick, Stan,

Per comments, VLAN topic is dealt in separate draft and flow control draft =
is updated accordingly.

1. VLANs and DLEP draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-an=
d-dlep-01
2. Flow Control draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-=
control-02

Request comments.

-Arun

-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ashish Dalela (ada=
lela)
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:21 PM
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan=
@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Rick,

Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback on wh=
at is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome, including =
"this is a very bad idea" :-)

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@=
gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Ashish,

Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My issue w=
ith them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your method is =
not allowed.

However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as you=
 have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without PFC, and =
PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs doesn't work.

I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that covers=
 the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your draft coverin=
g PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension if VLANs are in u=
se.

Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems excell=
ent.

Cheers,

Rick

On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the modem=
. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on =
the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding =
packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (towa=
rds another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarificatio=
n can be added to the next version if that would help.
>
> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class e=
ach. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's =
why it is important to combine them.
>
> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN=
. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.
>
> Thanks
> Ashish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Ashish,
>
> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from core=
 DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that ar=
e MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP peer=
s.
>
> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like=20
> the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP
> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I propo=
sed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, just=
 an identifying unique sequence of octets.
>
> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC becomes=
 the unique destination identifier.
>
> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:
> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the d=
ocument into two might be clearer for the readers?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>> Hi Rick,
>>
>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLA=
N 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors=
, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ashish
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
>> Cc: manet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>
>> Hi Ashish,
>>
>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.
>>
>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one=
 thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically sectio=
n 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betwe=
en router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in so=
me way?
>>
>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this=
 working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or h=
ave I misunderstood what you are proposing?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>>> Hello Stan,
>>>
>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=20
>>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
>>>
>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=20
>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.
>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=20
>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=20
>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
>>> PFC).
>>>
>>> Request comments.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> -Ashish
>>>
>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>> Ashish,
>>>
>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=20
>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=20
>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.
>>>
>>> Stan
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=20
>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The contro=
l
>>>       and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
>>>       pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air.=
 If
>>>       desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
>>>       priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
>>>
>>>       Sent from Samsung Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       -------- Original message --------
>>>       From: Henning Rogge
>>>       Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
>>>       To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
>>>       Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>       Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>>       On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
>>>       <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>       > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802=
.3 PAUSE
>>>       > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) m=
echanism. In
>>>       > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Ra=
ther we pause
>>>       > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffer=
s are full.
>>>       > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenari=
os today.
>>>
>>>       Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel=
?
>>>
>>>       Henning Rogge
>>>
>>>
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       manet mailing list
>>>       manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

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Subject: [manet] ICGCTI2016 part of World Congress - Green Computing, Technology and Innovation - Malaysia
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The Fourth International Conference on Green Computing, Technology and 
Innovation (ICGCTI2016)
- Part of The Fifth World Congress on Computing, Engineering and 
Technology (WCCET) -

Asia Pacific University of Technology & Innovation (A.P.U.)
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia | September 6-8, 2016

http://sdiwc.net/conferences/icgcti2016/
icgcti16@sdiwc.net
================================================================
All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library. The 
event will be held over three days, with presentations delivered by 
researchers from the international community, including presentations 
from keynote speakers and state-of-the-art lectures. The conference 
welcome papers on the following (but not limited to) research topics:

Information and Data Management
Data Compression
E-Technology
E-Government
E-Learning
Wireless Communications
Mobile Networking, Mobility and Nomadicity
Ubiquitous Computing, Services and Applications
Data Mining
Computational Intelligence
Biometrics Technologies
Forensics, Recognition Technologies and Applications
Information Ethics
Fuzzy and Neural Network Systems
Signal Processing, Pattern Recognition and Applications
Image Processing
Distributed and parallel applications
Internet Modeling
User Interfaces,Visualization and Modeling
XML-Based Languages
Network Security
Remote Sensing
Social Networks
Information Content Security
Mobile, Ad Hoc and Sensor Network Management
Web Services Architecture, Modeling and Design
Semantic Web, Ontologies
Web Services Security
Quality of Service, Scalability and Performance
Self-Organizing Networks and Networked Systems
Data Management in Mobile Peer-to-Peer Networks
Data Stream Processing in Mobile/Sensor Networks
Indexing and Query Processing for Moving Objects
Cryptography and Data Protection
User Interfaces and Usability Issues form Mobile Applications
Mobile Social Networks
Peer-to-Peer Social Networks
Sensor Networks and Social Sensing
Social Search
Embedded Systems and Software
Real-Time Systems
Multimedia Computing
Software Engineering

Researchers are encouraged to submit their work electronically. All 
papers will be fully refereed by a minimum of two specialized referees. 
Before final acceptance, all referees comments must be considered.

Important Dates
===============
Submission Deadline	August 6, 2016
Acceptance Notification	August 16, 2016 or 4 weeks from the submission 
date
Camera Ready Deadline	August 26, 2016
Registration Deadline	August 26, 2016
Conference Dates	September 6-8, 2016

VISIT www(dot)sdiwc(dot)net FOR MORE UPCOMING INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCES!


From nobody Wed Mar 16 10:35:44 2016
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To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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Hi Christopher,

> Am 02.03.2016 um 11:36 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>:
>=20
> My concerns have been that your co-authors have continued to discuss =
whether looping could occur since you published to the list saying all =
was well. (An issue to do with multiple unconfirmed routes.) Maybe =
that=E2=80=99s a problem, maybe it isn=E2=80=99t. But it lacks =
transparency, because it hasn=E2=80=99t been discussed here.

The loop possibility you=E2=80=99re referring to was a different one =
than the one discussed by Charlie. We=E2=80=99ve been contacted by =
researchers who are model checking MANET protocols to see if they permit =
any unwanted behaviour. They=E2=80=99ve used AODVv2 as a case study for =
the framework they=E2=80=99ve implemented to do this, and they=E2=80=99ve =
found the following loop:



1. n2 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination n3 by =
broadcasting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message.
2. n1 and n4 upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message, add a =
route to their routing tables towards n2 and store n2 as their next hop. =
Since it is the first time that these nodes have received a message from =
n2, the neighbor state of n2 is set to unconfirmed. Therefore, the route =
state is unconfirmed.
3. As n1 and n4 are not the intended destination of the route request, =
they rebroadcast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message.
4. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n4 and since =
the route to n2 is unconfirmed it adds n4 as new next hop to n2.
5. n4 also adds n1 as the new next hop towards n2 after processing the =
=E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D sent by node1. At this point a loop is formed =
between n1 and n4 but not used yet.
6. n3 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n1 and since =
it is the destination, it sends a =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message towards =
n1.
7. n2 moves out of n1 and n4 communication range.
8. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message sent by n3 and as the =
route state towards n2 is unconfirmed it multicasts the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=
=9D message to the existing next hops, n2 and n4. Since n4 is adjacent =
to n1, it receives the message and then sends an ack to n1. Therefore, =
n1 sets the neighbor state of n4 to confirm and subsequently the route =
state towards n2 to valid. Then expunge the next hop n2 which has not =
received an ack from.
9. n4 by receiving the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message from n1 multicasts =
it to its next hops towards n1 and n2,
and similar to n1 it updates its routing table by validating n1 as its =
next hop to n2. At this point, a loop between n1 and n4 becomes valid.



In response to these findings, we've changed 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route =
Information in -13, so that LoopFree() is *always* considered before =
adding a new route, even if all known routes to date are Unconfirmed.

Following up, they=E2=80=99ve found another loop in -13:



At first nodes are connected to each other as shown in Fig1.a.
n0 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination n3 by =
multicasting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message to n2 with sq=3D2.
n2 after updating its routing table, multicast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D =
to its neighbors, n1 and n3.
n1 upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n2 updates =
its routing table and adds a route with hop-count=3D2, sq=3D2 and =
next-hope=3D2
Consider that topology changes at this point and n1 moves into =
communication range of n0, gets connected to n0, and n2 leaves n0 =
communication range, gets disconnected from n0, which leads to network =
topology shown in Fig1.b.
n0, which hasn=E2=80=99t received an =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D yet, resend =
the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message after increasing its sequence number =
to 3.
n1 receives the new =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message, with sq=3D3, =
next-hop=3D0 and hop-count=3D1, since it=E2=80=99s a better route it =
would be added to the routing table. Then n1 multicast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=
=80=9D message to its neighbors, n2 and n3.
n2 evaluate the received message sent by n1 and adds a new route to its =
routing table with sq=3D3, next-hop=3D1 and hop-count=3D2 since the =
sequence number of the received message is greater than the stored one.
At this point a loop has been formed between nodes n1 and n2.


Since we=E2=80=99ve moved to disallowing multiple Unconfirmed routes (in =
-14, which isn=E2=80=99t published yet), this one is resolved already as =
well.


The reason we didn=E2=80=99t discuss this earlier on [manet] was that =
the authors hadn=E2=80=99t submitted their paper yet (and I didn=E2=80=99t=
 want to leak their work). They=E2=80=99ve done so now, and will send us =
a link to their paper once it=E2=80=99s available. I=E2=80=99m guessing =
it=E2=80=99ll take a while to be published properly, but it should be =
enough for for our purposes for the paper to appear on arxiv.org for =
now=E2=80=A6

Best regards,
Lotte

> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: Charlie Perkins [mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net =
<mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net>]=20
> Sent: 01 March 2016 01:08
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); manet
> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> Hello Chris,
>=20
> On 1/19/2016 5:37 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
> And outside those 31, that we=E2=80=99re at this position with a =
suggestion there=E2=80=99s possible looping (about which I have no idea) =
isn=E2=80=99t that comforting.
>=20
> I hope your concerns have been resolved on this matter.  The paper =
mentioned on the mailing list pointed out various ambiguities in RFC =
3561 described how the ambiguities might be construed to install =
self-routes and, combined with possible inconsistent choices for =
sequence number, loops could result.  But the email to the list several =
weeks ago indicated that these ambiguities do not exist in AODVv2.  The =
authors of that paper have expressed interest in doing a similar =
analysis on AODVv2.
>=20
> Other discussion about routing loops has not identified routing loop =
problems in the existing specification.  Use of unconfirmed or invalid =
routes for routing might lead to errors, but that doesn't carry over to =
produce loops in the route table.
>=20
> I'm looking for any other open issues outside of the Security =
Considerations which is being reworked according to recent comments but =
should be submitted soon.
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> There=E2=80=99s also a lot of document to review. Which of course I =
haven=E2=80=99t done at this time. But my attention did alight on the =
IANA considerations section, and I noted there that:
> - Not sure why the jump to 10 for message types, though I=E2=80=99m =
not opposed.
> - The PATH_METRIC TLV can=E2=80=99t be type 10, that=E2=80=99s already =
taken. See IANA register.
> - We previously pointed out that CONT_SEQ_NUM (COMPLETE) already =
exists and does the job that SEQ_NUM is doing, so why allocate another =
TLV? (You could avoid the necessity of repeating (COMPLETE) by simply =
commenting once and thereafter omitting.)
> - Why the suggested skipping of types 12 to 14?
> =20
> --
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Victoria Mercieca
> Sent: 18 January 2016 21:45
> To: manet
> Subject: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
> *** WARNING ***
> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization.
> =20
> Hi all,
> We have just released the newest AODVv2 draft. The major update is the =
separation of the AODVv2 route set from the RIB.
>=20
> Here are also responses to the comments received before Christmas. =
This should include all the points from Thomas Clausen regarding =
versions 11 and 12, and also a couple of other points which have been =
brought up since. Apologies for the huge email. For issues that need =
further discussion, I have tried to include the main points of the =
discussion so far. Please feel free to create a separate thread for any =
further discussion.
>=20
> We are still looking into the loop conditions recently reported for =
AODV, also still working on the text about security, and use of =
msg-hop-limit.
> Kind regards,
> Victoria.
> =20
>=20
> 1. End-to-end / hop-by-hop acks - issue when a route is marked as =
confirmed and valid when the link to the next hop is confirmed as =
bidirectional (but the links downstream have not yet been verified as =
bidirectional).
>=20
> AODVv2: The authors believe this is an issue which would not occur =
frequently, and would right itself.=20
>=20
> This only occurs for the route to OrigAddr. What needs to happen for =
this to occur is that an intermediate node that takes part in the route =
discovery between OrigAddr and TargAddr coincidentally has packets to =
send to OrigAddr in the time between confirming the link to its own next =
hop toward OrigAddr is bidirectional, and the time taken for all other =
routers on the path to confirm their next hops too. If the route is used =
to forward packets before every other link in the path is confirmed as =
bidirectional, and the data packets are forwarded faster than the RREP =
and any RREP_Acks, then yes they could be delivered to a router without =
a valid route to OrigAddr. Alternatively if one of the links turns out =
to be unidirectional then the data packets will also arrive at a router =
without a valid route. In these cases, RERR messages will be generated =
toward the source of the traffic, the route to OrigAddr will be deleted =
at routers back toward TargAddr, but if data packets are still flowing =
from any source to OrigAddr, the route will be re-requested by the =
router responsible for discovering routes for the source of the data.
>=20
> The changes required to make acknowledgements end-to-end would require =
a lot more control traffic and be necessary for every route discovery =
and in almost all cases would be unnecessary.
>=20
> Text has been added to the draft in =E2=80=9CLocal Route State =
Changes=E2=80=9D to describe this.
>=20
> 2. Buffering
> =EF=BB=BFThomas:
> =E2=80=9CIt would seem that buffering, as specified, does not =
accomplish what=20
> it states that it accomplishes: packets are (as you describe) still =
being
> sent while no route is available, and therefore will be dropped later.
> =3D> Consequently, it seems that buffering is a futile exercise?=E2=80=9D=

>=20
> AODVv2: =EF=BB=BFPackets are buffered before a route exists. A router =
only begins sending them when it deems the route to be valid. In =
general, buffering is not futile.
>=20
> True, there is this case outlined above where the router could deem =
the route valid before the bidirectionality check has happened for each =
and every hop. If the links chosen for the route are not all =
bidirectional, then yes, any data packets forwarded along this route =
will end up being dropped at some point on that path.=20
> This case is caused by the RREP_Ack being hop-by-hop, and not caused =
by buffering.
>=20
> Thomas: =EF=BB=BF
> =E2=80=9CBuffers have huge impacts on TCP performance, and I doubt if =
the issues on e.g. TCP are well enough understood by this WG =
(Bufferbloat was an example of where people got it wrong, despite having =
extensive experience).=E2=80=9D
>=20
> AODVv2: Packets will only be buffered while a route is requested. The =
TCP packets buffered will be packets for session initialisation. The =
authors believe that buffering these will have a positive effect. Some =
references have been suggested, listed here, the first of which has been =
included in the draft:
> =
http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodli=
.pdf =
<http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodl=
i.pdf>
> Mobile Internetworking with IPv6: Concepts, Principles and Practices =
{Koodli, Perkins}
> disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt =
<http://disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt=
>
> Analysis of TCP performance over mobile ad hoc networks =
http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D313540 =
<http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D313540>
> Alternatively, we could remove the mention of TCP, and instead state =
that buffering MAY be used for packets awaiting a route, but that =
implementation and implications of this are out of scope for AODVv2.
>=20
>=20
> 3. Use of msg-hop-limit and msg-hop-count:
> Thomas:
> But, either way, as according to your model messages are never =
forwarded, but always are intended for receipt by a router which is a =
direct neighbor, then a <msg-hop-limit> >1 (which applies to the =
message) seems inappropriate.=20
> Actually, according to that model, I would even say that receipt of a =
message with a <msg-hop-count> >1 should be interpreted as a =
malfunction.
> As you refer to RFC5444 appendix B, do note that Appendix B of RFC5444 =
(and, note the errata 4003) talks about:
>       <msg-hop-limit> field, if present, contains the number of hops =
on which the message is allowed to travel before being discarded by a =
MANET router.  The <msg-hop-limit> is set by the message originator and =
is used to prevent messages from endlessly circulating in a MANET.=20
> Specifically =E2=80=9Cset by the message originator=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Cnumber of hops on which the message is allowed to travel=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=94 with your control messages traveling just one hop, I believe =
that setting <msg-hop-limit> =3D 1 is correct.
>=20
> AODVv2: Discussion is still needed here. We wonder if these fields are =
necessary at all for AODVv2. We were using them to limit the number of =
regenerations of a RREQ. However, the hop limit value needs to be large =
enough to allow a RREQ from one side of the network to another. It might =
be the case that using the hop limit, almost every router in the network =
would receive that RREQ anyway, and by using the redundancy check, we =
already stop RREQs from circulating endlessly.
>=20
> 4. Abstract
> Thomas:
> =E2=80=9CI made the following comment, which still applies:
> =E2=80=9CThis is a little over-stating the applicability: these =
statements may be true in some scenarios (for example, when there are =
few concurrent traffic flows, and therefore few routes to repair, and =
therefore few flooding operations to contend for channel access). As a =
general statement, this last sentence is incorrect=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>=20
> AODVv2: The text has been removed and the abstract now states: =E2=80=9C=
 The Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing =
protocol is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop =
networks.  AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within =
the network in an on-demand fashion.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> 5,9,12,13,20. Router Client
> Thomas:=20
> =E2=80=9CI made a comment previously that =E2=80=9CRouter client=E2=80=9D=
 is a poorly chosen term, and have proposed alternatives. I=E2=80=99ve =
seen some attempts on the list at rather than change the term, explain =
it =E2=80=94 some of which is in this document. The =E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=
=9D still talks about =E2=80=9Ca router=E2=80=A6one of its clients=E2=80=9D=
 - which is no less confusing than last time Iw went through it.
> I reiterate, why not use =E2=80=9CLocal Attached Network Set=E2=80=9D, =
which is the term used by other documents from this WG?=E2=80=9D
>=20
> AODVv2: We already answered this suggestion on the MANET list and =
asked for comments and suggestions, and no responses were received. We =
have defined what we mean by Router Client, and the terminology has so =
far not changed. However, some alternatives have been suggested, so if =
you feel any of these are more effective, please let us know:
> =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2    Advertised IP Address: puts the emphasis on =
advertisement rather than topological connection
> =E2=80=A2    Accessible IP Address: puts the emphasis on accessibility =
through the particular router =E2=80=93 not bad
> =E2=80=A2    Reduced Function Device [RFD]: doesn=E2=80=99t roll off =
the tongue, but this is terminology used for L2R in IEEE 802 Wireless =
for a similar situation
> =E2=80=A2    Accessible Device Address: adds some emphasis for the =
device as well as the address
> =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2    Stably Connected IP Address: nothing is =
permanent, of course, but the router client set is thought to be =
relatively stable
> =E2=80=A2    Topologically Connected IP address: ... suggests that a =
"topological connection" is stable compared to wireless
> =E2=80=A2    Administratively Assigned IP address: ... somehow does =
not connote the "otherness" of the router client devices.
>=20
> 6. Overview - adjacency
> Thomas:=20
> The term =E2=80=9Cconfirming adjacency=E2=80=9D is gone, and is now =
replaced by =E2=80=9Cconfirming bidirectionality=E2=80=9D - which, alas, =
still sounds like there is some active monitoring (HELLO message =
exchange) going on. Unless that is the case, then please be more =
specific here.
> I note that the term adjacency is used through and through the =
document, btw.
>=20
> AODVv2: The text has been updated to avoid the word adjacency. We do =
not believe the text implies active monitoring through HELLO messages.
>=20
> 7. Overview - forwarding plane
> Thomas: I suggested in my last review: The overview must also include =
a paragraph on the intersections between this protocol and the =
forwarding plane =E2=80=94 this, as it is different (and more invasive) =
from that which is typically seen in routing protocols.
> Specifically, as a reactive protocol, it is required (at least) that =
the forwarding plane is modified :
> 1) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when looking up a next hop for a data =
packet to be forwarded, is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to =
permit that route discovery be launched;
> 2) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when attempting to deliver a data packet =
to a next hop, which was recorded in the routing table, is signalled to =
the AODVv2 process so as to permit that a route repair be initiated =
and/or a Route Error be generated.
> 3) A =E2=80=9Chit=E2=80=9D when looking up a next hop for a data =
packet to be forwarded to a destination is signalled to the AODVv2 =
process so as to permit maintenance of =E2=80=9Cactive route=E2=80=9D =
Route State, timers and such.
> Note that these things are necessary to call out in the =E2=80=9Covervie=
w=E2=80=9D and in the =E2=80=9Capplicability statement=E2=80=9D, both: =
it is not that they are negatives per se, but that they are important =
factors governing the applicability of this protocol: will a given =
platform permit such access to the forwarding plane, for example? =
Important to understand if for that platform this protocol is apple
> I see that this was not addressed in the overview, nor in the =
applicability other than by a forward reference to section 6.4. While it =
is positive that there is a section 6.4, this does not exonerate the =
overview and the applicability statement for being honest about the =
requirements (notably to the platform/os) that this protocol has for =
being applicable
>=20
> AODVv2: The Overview and the Applicability Statement now refer to =
these basic requirements for the interaction with the forwarding plane. =
The Applicability Statement also contains the reference to the later =
section which describes this in more detail.
>=20
> 8. 7182 and security
>=20
> Thomas: I suggested in my last review: It is important to do more than =
this: 7182 does only provide =E2=80=9Ccontainers=E2=80=9D for ICVs and =
timestamps, and does not specify how to use them to obtain specific =
security properties. RFC7182 may be a tool that can be used, but how* =
that tool is used is what determines the security properties.
> Therefore, saying that =E2=80=9Csecurity is dealt with by using =
RFC7182=E2=80=9D is either an incomplete statement, or is indicative of =
insufficient security considerations.=E2=80=9D
> The actual sentence in the I-D has been changed, now it explicitly =
names the two TLVs from 7182 that it uses. That is, alas, still not =
sufficient.
> Making the aside that was discussed recently on the list, that (i) =
control messages are not forwarded, and that (ii) they are modified in =
transit, the security/trust model is somewhat different from that of =
7181 and consequently for what 7182 was initially written for. I think =
that  calling out the trust model, and how 7182 actually is used here, =
might be what is called for.
> Continuing with the aside, this *especially* as the applicability =
statement says: "Providing security for a reactive routing protocol can =
be difficult=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Thomas:
> =EF=BB=BFOK, so assume that I understand regeneration as per my =
previous email, as meaning =E2=80=9Cgenerate a new message and send to =
my neighbors, based on what I learned when processing a received =
message=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 just like any distance vector protocol does.
> In that model, what you write makes sense: each originator of a =
control message (i.e., whoever generates or regenerates it) is free to =
include the information it desires, such as the 4 points you list above. =
No issues with that.
> However, and this joins what I pointed out in a previous email, you =
write in the applicability statement: "Providing security for a reactive =
routing protocol can be difficult."
> While we can discuss if the nature of =E2=80=9Creactive routing =
protocol=E2=80=9D generates particular difficulties, we certainly can =
agree that this protocol has the same =E2=80=9Cdifficulties=E2=80=9D as =
a distance vector protocol: routing topology information (by definition) =
not being exchanged end-to-end, but between neighbors (who do =
calculations and generate their own announcements =E2=80=94 =
regeneration, as you call it).=20
> This means that a specific security model of transitive trust must be =
assumed, no? I trust Victoria, therefore when Victoria says =E2=80=9CStan =
told me=E2=80=9D then I trust that she actually verified that "it was =
indeed Stan who told her =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and either way, I =
have no way of verifying?
> I did not see the trust model / trust assumption discussed in the =
specification (specifically not in applicability and in section 13, both =
of where it should be called out), but I think that this is actually a =
crucial point to get right, in order to approach developing the MTI =
security mechanisms.
> Anyways, that observation actually contrasts strongly with what the =
applicability statement then goes on to say, namely:
>    AODVv2 provides for message integrity and security against replay
>    attacks by using integrity check values, timestamps and sequence
>    numbers, as described in Section 13.
> This is true only in as much as messages are indeed exchanged between =
neighbors: when you =E2=80=9Cregenerate=E2=80=9D a message, i.e., =
generate a new message in response to receipt of a message, you generate =
brand new payload (but possibly including some of the data from the =
received message, of course): thus, any ICVs =E2=80=9Cfrom farther away =
than the neighbor=E2=80=9D will be useless (or, if you zero out the =
parts that you change, these parts will not be protected).
> The above sentence, quoted from the applicability statement, and that =
which transpires from section 13, seems - certainly, absent the trust =
model assumed - to suggest that end-to-end protection/validation is =
provided. But, this is not the case.
> Finally to the applicability statement, a question:
> If security associations can be established, encryption can be used =
for AODVv2 messages to ensure that only trusted routers participate in =
routing operations.
> What you want to say here is that =E2=80=9Cif all trusted routers have =
a shared secret, then we=E2=80=99re able to use that shared secret to =
ignore non-trusted routers=E2=80=9D, right?=20
> While =E2=80=9Csecurity associations=E2=80=9D that do not pass through =
a shared secret probably can be thought up, it=E2=80=99s not trivial and =
I did not find any discussion of that in the document?
> Having, on the topic of security, re-read Section 13, which starts:
>    This section describes various security considerations and =
potential
>    avenues to secure AODVv2 routing. =20
> While this is an honest description of what follows, I remain =
convinced that this is not sufficient. So let me ask as precisely as I =
can:
> o what is the MTI security mechanism that a conformant implementation =
must provide? Specifically: - which are the processing steps (for =
example in section 7.2.1 and section 7.2.2 for RREP - and similarly for =
the other message types) that define that security mechanism
> o what protection is offered by that MTI security mechanism? And what =
remains vulnerable.
> If this specification targets std.track, then it should include =
(reasonably solid, but definitely well specified) MTI security.
>=20
> Chris Dearlove:
> =EF=BB=BFThere are two potential choices:
>=20
> - RREQ has an integrity check value to indicate that someone trusted =
created it, if not necessarily the destination. That someone might be =
identifiable or not.
> - RREQ has a signature that indicates that the destination created it.
>=20
> Unfortunately, an RREQ that changes as it is forwarded (aggregating =
data of any sort) makes the second option tricky, unless there=E2=80=99s =
some sort of aggregating signature as it is forwarded. But I=E2=80=99m =
not an expert on the latter.
>=20
> The most trivial case of the former is simply that everyone trusted =
has a single shared key. That has obvious issues =E2=80=93 although it =
was good enough that embodied as RFC 7183 we could get 7181 through the =
system (as a =E2=80=9Cmust implement, do not need to use=E2=80=9D =
minimal case). Alternatively something identity-based (e.g. =
draft-ietf-manet-ibs) could be used, so you know who created the message =
you received, but you are relying on a chain of trust, hop by hop. At =
which point you might as well just sign packets (see RFC 7182).
>=20
> But in even the weakest case (the single shared key used hop by hop) =
there has to be a failure for things to go wrong - either loss of key =
(in which case all bets are off) or suborning one router (who can do =
quite a lot of damage).
>=20
> I haven't read the latest AODVv2 draft yet, but this sort of thing =
should be described in its security considerations - the previous draft =
though didn't discuss this as far as I recall.
>=20
> Chris Dearlove:
> =EF=BB=BFIf you go down this route of assuming transitive trust, then =
you might as well use 7182=E2=80=99s packet ICV and timestamp rather =
than message ICV and timestamp.
> =20
> There is a complication (mostly one of presentation) that the 5444 =
multiplexer (rather than AODVv2) needs to do this, at least for packets =
containing AODVv2 messages (but at which point, probably all 5444 =
packets). So you either, depending on your point of view, need to =
request it to do that, or (administratively) decline to operate except =
over a 5444 multiplexer that is doing this.
> =20
> The advantage is one of saved space and time when packets contain more =
than one message. Plus slightly better protection (hop count and limit =
are covered) but which probably doesn=E2=80=99t matter here.
> =20
> If messages are changed/replaced on a one-to-one basis as forwarded, =
then the only solutions I can see are hop by hop transitive trust =
(packets or messages per hop), or something complicated involving =
aggregation and knowledge of changes. But the latter would be a research =
task to develop, so let=E2=80=99s not try that.
>=20
> Jiazi Yi:
> I=EF=BB=BF agree with Chris and Thomas on their concerns on the =
hop-by-hop security issue.=20
> This is very different from classical DV protocol, in which the vector =
information is designed to be exchanged between neighbours.=20
> In AODVv2, the RREQ/RREP/RERR are to be forwarded through multiple =
hops. A router can sign a message that isn't actually initialised by =
itself -- this is, at least, against intuition.=20
> This can be an issue if we have compromised routers in the network. Of =
course, a compromised router is a problem for every protocol, like =
OLSRv2. But in OLSRv2, a compromised router can only speak on behalf of =
itself -- however, in AODVv2, a compromised/mis-configured router can =
pretend to be any other router (for example, generate RREQ messages =
using another address as OrigAddr).  The consequence will be much more =
serious if that happens.=20
>=20
> AODVv2: This is not yet addressed.
>=20
> 9. Terminology - host, routers, router clients:=20
>=20
> Thomas: My last review suggested:
> =E2=80=9CThis has been brought up on the list several times in the =
past, without having been addressed.
> There are =E2=80=9Chosts=E2=80=9D and there are =E2=80=9Crouters=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=94 whose roles are well defined. Node=E2=80=9D not so much =E2=80=94=
 which is clear from looking at the definition here: =E2=80=9Ceither =
AODVv2 routers or router clients=E2=80=9D (with =E2=80=9Crouter =
clients=E2=80=9D being defined as =E2=80=9Can AODVv2 router is also its =
own router client=E2=80=9D).
>=20
> This is very much related to the use of =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D,=
 and both that term, and =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D indicative that some =
clarity is needed here.
>=20
> All a router cares about is =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D. If that =
address is of a network, or a router, or an interface (and, if said =
interface is installed in a router or a host) doesn=E2=80=99t matter.
>=20
> So, =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D is something that the routing =
protocol should care about finding paths to. Which means that each =
address that should be made reachable by the routing protocol should be =
advertised by (at least) one router in the network.
>=20
> One way of doing that would be to simply talk about =E2=80=9CAttached =
Networks=E2=80=9D as is done in RFC7181, wherein an address included in =
the =E2=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D is advertised by an OLSRv2 =
router....in this case, the equivalent would be =E2=80=9Cfor each =
address in the Attached Network Set of an AODVv2 router the router MUST =
respond authoritatively to a RREQ, and MUST maintain the corresponding =
sequence number=E2=80=9D.
> The text, as it currently is, is really hard to read, and a re-edit =
along these lines would go a long way.=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I note that the terms =E2=80=9CNode=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CRouter =
Client=E2=80=9D are still used, in their original form, and that other =
than some slight wordsmithing this comment has not been addressed in the =
document.
>=20
> I reiterate that the need to use router, host, node, and router client =
in and by itself should be an indicator that tightening up of =
terminology is required.
>=20
> AODVv2: See 5. The use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D has been addressed.
>=20
> 10. Terminology and elsewhere - address
> Thomas: I made the following comment to Routable Unicast IP Address:
> =E2=80=9CAre there any technical reason why not simply *any* address =
could be considered by the routing protocol?
> My understanding, but correct me if I am wrong, is that all that is =
required is that all interfaces in a given AODVv2 routing domain has an =
unique address.
> That some of these addresses (by an IP addressing architecture =
document) has special semantics associated (such as are link locals, or =
are for private use, or are for example use only, or are for multicast) =
is out of scope here?
> I see nothing has changed on the above, so let me be more explicit: =
the routing protocol itself probably) should not care about what kind of =
addresses are filled into it. Is an 192.16./16 address appropriate? Not =
across the internet, but it may be in somebody=E2=80=99s private =
deployments. Should the routing protocol be =E2=80=9Caddress police=E2=80=9D=
 and is implementation of a =E2=80=9CI refuse to route these =
addresses=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D a requirement for claiming conformance? =
Suggest simply stating what the requirements are under which the routing =
protocol will work =E2=80=94 and leave =E2=80=9Caddress assignment =
politics=E2=80=9D aside.
>=20
> AODVv2: We ask for clarification on this issue. We use the phrase =
=E2=80=9Croutable and unicast=E2=80=9D in the draft with respect to =
OrigAddr and TargAddr. We dont mean to exclude addresses from the =
private address ranges. But we dont want to request routes for =
multicast, indeterminate, link-local, or loopback addresses. This is not =
about router interface addresses which are used for AODVv2.
>=20
> 11. Multiple interfaces with the same IP address, 6621 implications
>=20
> Thomas: I also continued:
> Now, with that being said also, the WG wanted that RFC7181 supports =
not just multiple interfaces, but also the same address used on multiple =
interfaces of the same router. There were good reasons for that, and =
while it was not trivial to implement, it turned out to be the right =
thing to support. If there are technical reasons why this is not =
supported in AODVv2 (for example, if this cannot be made work because of =
<reason>) then that should be called out in the applicability statement =
also?
> Conversely, if it is possible in AODVv2, then I do not believe that it =
is clearly specified how (at least, in the =E2=80=9Cnaive=E2=80=9D on =
paper examples I drew up, something ended up not working). So either the =
protocol as-is does not support it (but could be made to?) or it is =
supported (but just need to be spelled out), or is not possible (and =
need to be disclaimed in the applicability statement).
> Stan Ratliff was a driving force in holding the WG=E2=80=99s =
collective feet to the fire in getting this support included in RFC7181, =
and would likely be the right person to consult on this matter?
> I actually have not seen changes, or comments, on this. In OLSRv2, the =
WG was making it a strong requirement that it should be possible to use =
the same IP address on different interfaces of a router. It was somewhat =
tedious to design around, but it was worked out, and the conditions =
under which that was possible were defined and documented.
> I would like to see the same done for this protocol.
> I also note that this is not unrelated to RFC6621-discussions. For =
example, when selecting S-MPRs on a multi-interface and =
multi-address-per-interface router, care must be taken least things =
won=E2=80=99t work. So, if (and this links back to previous mails) =
RFC6621 is a requirement or desire for this protocol, then there are =
some considerations required here.
>=20
> AODVv2: We have removed references to RFC 6621.
> Initial thoughts on this topic of multiple interfaces using the same =
IP address, is that this wouldn=E2=80=99t cause a problem, if the router =
has only one sequence number. However, this is up for further =
discussion.
>=20
> 12. Interfaces configured as router clients
>=20
> Thomas: I see that the definition of =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D =
has changed to be
> =E2=80=9CAn address or address range=E2=80=A6the AODVv2 router=E2=80=99s=
 interface addresses are also configured as router clients=E2=80=9D
> Better than before, but still missing the target. The term =E2=80=9CRout=
er Client=E2=80=9D is, as I indicated numerous times before, odd.
> But the second part of the sentence, does that mean (what it says) =
that the interfaces must be configured specially, so as to be able to be =
=E2=80=9Crouter clients=E2=80=9D? That can=E2=80=99t be true.
> What you likely mean is:
> An AODVv2 router is configured so as to consider its own interfaces as =
part of the locally attached network set=E2=80=9D ?
> You configure the router, right? No special =E2=80=9Cinterface =
configuration properties=E2=80=9D are required for an interface to be =
announcable by  an AODVv2 router? (And, getting rid of node would =
actually make the definition shorter and nicer)
>=20
> AODVv2: The wording we use says: "The IP Addresses of the router's =
interfaces will appear in the Router Client Table." and in the =
Terminology: "The AODVv2 router's interface addresses are also =
configured as Router Clients." Both statements say that =E2=80=98interface=
 addresses are configured as router clients=E2=80=99 ...we are not sure =
why this is misunderstood. We have a router client list, and the AODVv2 =
router=E2=80=99s interface addresses are included in this list. The =
interface itself doesn=E2=80=99t have special =E2=80=9Cinterface =
configuration properties=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> 13 - more on router clients
> Thomas: Now, snipping out from the applicability statement:
> "Multi-homing of an IP address is not supported by AODVv2, and =
therefore a Router Client, i.e. an IP Address,  =E2=80=A6 "
> =E2=80=A6evidence to there being some redundant terminology here to =
weed away.
>=20
> AODVv2: That was there as a reminder that a router client is based on =
IP address, even though the device with that IP address may have other =
IP addresses too. It=E2=80=99s the IP address that is the router client, =
not the device as a whole with its entire collection of configured IP =
addresses. One IP address of that device might be configured as a router =
client on one router, and a different IP address of that device could be =
configured as a router client on another router. The IP addresses would =
seem to AODVv2 to be on different devices.
>=20
>=20
> 14. data elements
>=20
> Thomas: The below is a little bit of a meta-comment, I am not quite =
sure what I think here. The definitions for Target Node and such were =
confusing before. They still are, somewhat.
> I think that it may be because the definitions now used are simply =
copy-pasted out from the tables in the previous version, for example:
>    =E2=80=9CAn AODVv2 Data Element containing the destination address =
of the IP packet triggering route discovery.=E2=80=9D
> OK, I can trace back and see that a Data Element is something that =
exists inside a protocol message. To me, however, that=E2=80=99s not =
really general terminology as such, but part of the specification of a =
packet format - or rather, it is the notation that you use when =
describing an algorithm. By the way, why are some notations in CamelCase =
whereas others have a space in them, e.g. =E2=80=9CTarget Node=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9CTargMetric=E2=80=9D, both of which are Data Elements? Would =
be good with a consistent approach here.
> I *think* that it would be better to take all those =E2=80=9CData =
Element=E2=80=9D bits and move to a separate section (or subsection) to =
the terminology, and then keep all the =E2=80=9Cother stuff=E2=80=9D =
(Neighbor, =E2=80=A6) in its own section.
>=20
> AODVv2: Your comment from draft 11 where we already had data elements =
in a separate table, says:
> "Also suggest abolishing this table and folding the definitions in =
with the other definitions in the terminology section."
> We have updated to not refer so heavily to the term Data Element. All =
the terms are described in the Terminology section. Those in CamelCase =
are used as message fields.
>=20
>=20
> 15. Route =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D
> Thomas:
> I made a comment: Second, should =E2=80=9Cvalid route=E2=80=9D not be =
qualified by =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D?=E2=80=9D
> Which was not addressed.
>=20
> AODVv2: Every route is to a specific address...the address is =
specified by Route.Address and Route.PrefixLength.
> Do you mean that routes are to the address TargAddr or OrigAddr and =
therefore to a specific host address rather than to a network prefix? =
This is not the case. Prefix Length is included in AODVv2 messages so =
that the route learned from the message represents the prefix which =
OrigAddr or TargAddr resides on (if the router client entry =
corresponding to OrigAddr at RREQ_Gen or TargAddr at RREP_Gen is =
configured with a prefix length). e.g. OrigAddr is 10.0.0.1 but the =
corresponding router client entry at RREQ_Gen could be 10.0.0.0/8 =
<http://10.0.0.0/8>. So when constructing the RREQ you include a prefix =
length of 8, and when receiving the RREQ and learning the route to =
OrigAddr, you can install a route to 10.0.0.0/8 <http://10.0.0.0/8>.  =
Text has been updated to make this more obvious.
>=20
> 16. unreachable address
>=20
> Thomas: I also made a comment on "Unreachable Address=E2=80=9D - I am =
glad I did, because I apparently had a different understanding than what =
was intended. I now see that an Unreachable Address by definition is an =
address listed in a RERR message, and not the same as an address to =
which no route has yet  been discovered? If yes, then please use a =
different term, such as FormerlyReachableAddress=E2=80=9D or something =
of the sort?
>=20
> AODVv2: "Formerly reachable" is inaccurate... we send a RERR if =
another router forwards a packet via us, and we dont have a route, not =
just when we lose a route. We might never have had a route, or might =
never have had a valid route, so the address may not have been "formerly =
reachable". Also, I think "FormerlyReachableAddress" is a really ugly =
term. Unreachable means "we don=E2=80=99t have a route and we aren=E2=80=99=
t going to request one" or "we lost this route" (depending on why the =
RERR is being sent). It doesn=E2=80=99t mean "we didn=E2=80=99t request =
one yet", and it would be wrong to class an address as unreachable =
because we hadn=E2=80=99t requested a route for it yet, that is, =
assuming it=E2=80=99s configured as a router client.=20
>=20
> If a better term is suggested we could consider changing but at the =
moment we have kept =E2=80=9CUnreachable Address=E2=80=9D.
>=20
>=20
> 17. Applicability - multiple interfaces same address, 6621 again
>=20
> Thomas: Applicability statement: First, I would like to recognize the =
efforts made to improve this since last review. Thanks
> Second, the document states: "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple =
interfaces, as long as each interface configured for AODVv2 has a =
unicast IP address.  A router may use the same IP address on multiple =
interfaces.  Address assignment procedures are out of scope for =
AODVv2.=E2=80=9D
> Is that true? Granted, I have not worked this through in detail, but I =
can present a counter-example: the use of RFC6621 means that there =
certainly are some constraints that must be respected least various =
flooding optimizations may not work.
> Secondly, if the multiple-interfaces-with-same-address are on the same =
L2, and this is what I have not worked through, are there any situations =
that will not work?
> The immediately previous version of this specification read:
> "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple interfaces, as long as each =
interface configured for AODVv2 has its own unicast routable IP address"
> So what changed that means that each interface no longer needs its =
*own* unicast address?
>=20
> AODVv2: Well, based on previous questions on this, we talked it =
through and decided there shouldn=E2=80=99t be an issue if different =
interfaces of a router used the same IP address. Note that we changed =
AODVv2 so that there is one sequence number per router. No longer can a =
router use different sequence numbers on different interfaces. If an =
RREQ went out of two interfaces using the same address, we worked it =
through and decided the request would be processed correctly.=20
> Also, text referring to RFC 6621 has been removed.
>=20
> 18. Applicability and appendix - multihoming
>=20
> Thomas: I pointed out to the Applicability Statement:
> I think that appendix B needs to be removed. Essentially, it makes =
claims that it is possible to do multi-homing =E2=80=94 but neither =
specifies how it is done, nor gives pointers to documents that justify =
the claim.
> AODVv2 does not support multi-homing =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s clear, =
and it is fine that it is called out here. Thank you for that.
> Now, with that being said, I am torn between being satisfied that it =
is called out on one hand, and wanting to have =E2=80=9Cmulti homing=E2=80=
=9D on the other hand. RFC7181 supports multi-homing, FWIW.
> I believe that this also would merit some explicit discussion by the =
WG, in order to understand if this design decision is acceptable?
> I see that Appendix B still is in the document, and I do not recall =
having seen this discussed on the mailing list. Simply removing the =
reference from the Applicability Statement to Appendix B does not =
address the issue that I raised in my previous review.
>=20
> AODVv2: Appendix has been removed and may appear in a future =
informational document.
>=20
> 19. interfaces list - use of =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Thomas: To 4.1, I made the following comment:
> "Is this a should, or a SHOULD? If the latter, should it be a MUST?
> In general, there are a lot of such =E2=80=9Cmaybe normative =
language=E2=80=9D through the document, and I would much like to see an =
editorial pass =E2=80=94 essentially all may/should/ must and friends =
carefully evaluated as if they should become 2119-terms, and ... more =
importantly (it has been called out before, fwiw) quite a bit of =
should/SHOULD which ought to be transformed into MUST.
> Generally, aiming for a very a low number of SHOULD is a good design =
metric for a document=E2=80=9D
> Aside from the general comment on 2119-language, why is this a SHOULD?
>=20
> AODVv2: We changed this instance to a MUST and will be checking for =
=E2=80=9Cmaybe normative language=E2=80=9D.
>=20
>=20
> 20. Router client - Local Attached Network Set
>=20
> Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:
> As indicated earlier, I believe that the term =E2=80=9CRouter =
Client=E2=80=9D is ill chosen. I believe that it is more appropriately =
an =E2=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D since =E2=80=94 as indicated =
previously =E2=80=94 the term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D is =
ambiguous. I am pleased to see, though, that this =E2=80=9CRouter Client =
List=E2=80=9D in reality is an =E2=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D =
and so that change should be (relatively) easy.
> The above comment still is applicable to this revision,
>=20
> AODVv2: See 5,9,12,13.
>=20
>=20
> 21. Subnet
> Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:
> Also, I recommend to not say =E2=80=9Csubnet=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 how =
about rephrasing to =E2=80=9CIf a prefix is included in the attached =
network set of an AODVv2 router, then that AODVv2 router MUST provide =
connectivity for, i.e. answer to RREQs and maintain sequence numbers =
for, all addresses from within that prefix.=E2=80=9D
> I note that while the term has been removed from section 4, there=E2=80=99=
re 4 lingering instances of this term in the document, that could easily =
be removed.
>=20
> AODVv2: All mentions of "subnet" were in the ENAR section. They have =
been updated to say network, or "networks attached to the routers"
>=20
>=20
> 22. relocating router client
>=20
> Thomas: I Also made a comment about Appendix B in my previous review, =
which is referenced here. That comment still applies.
>=20
> AODVv2: Moved into main draft.
>=20
>=20
> 23. Neighbor Monitoring
>=20
> Thomas: To Section 4.3, I noticed:
> Does section 6.2 describe how to monitor an established adjacency =
only, or how to discover neighbouring AODVv2 routers? Looking in 6.2, I =
see
> =E2=80=9CNot every pair of neighboring routers will necessarily form =
an adjacency,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 so it likely isn=E2=80=99t 6.2 that =
tells me how to maintain this table?
> In short, =E2=80=9CA neighbour table MUST be maintained=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
 where can I find information on how to do this?
> Section 6.2 states:
> =E2=80=9CThe default approach for monitoring bidirectional =
connectivity to the next hop toward OrigAddr is to request =
acknowledgement of Route Reply messages.=E2=80=9D
> That certainly will tell me if a link over which an RREP is sent is =
bi-directional, but will not maintain a =E2=80=9Cneighbor table=E2=80=9D.
> So how is this done? Or, is the =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=9D not =
supposed to contain the complete set of neighbours? What information =
=E2=80=9C...MUST be maintained=E2=80=9D then, in this table?
> This is very unclear, I would not know how to implement a mechanism =
that populates this =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=9D with the needed =
information here.
> I see no (relevant) changes to 6.2 nor to 4.3 so I assume that this =
comment has not been addressed
>=20
> AODVv2: A new section was added to show how to update the neighbour =
table. There have also been updates to this entire section since version =
12.
>=20
> 24.     pseudo-code
>=20
> Thomas:
> I am throwing this in here, as I am sure that I commented on that in =
the previous review, but I do not see that addressed: is Appendix C =
normative, or not? It represents =E2=80=9C a second specification of the =
protocol, in a different language=E2=80=9D from the main part of the =
specification. I have not walked through and made 200% sure that both =
are perfectly aligned and that there are no ambiguities, but having two =
different specifications of a protocol is a recipe for disaster.  Please =
either make 2000% sure that they are specifying the same thing without =
ambiguities, or remove one.
>=20
> AODVv2: Removed - maybe to include in an informational document in =
future.
>=20
>=20
> 25. seqnum as 16 bit unsigned integer
>=20
> Thomas: To section 4.4, I wrote:
> "would like to nit-pick that: the router can maintain this sequence =
number in whatever format it pleases =E2=80=94 but, when it includes it =
in control messages, it must be representable in a specified format, =
respecting certain rules.=E2=80=9D
> I see that there were no changes following this comment.
>=20
> AODVv2: Why store it as anything other than what it needs to be when =
it goes into a message? However, we now state "MUST report its own =
sequence number as a 16 bit....whenever it creates a RREQ or RREP =
message".
>=20
>=20
> 26. multiple seqnums?
>=20
> Thomas:
> To section 4.4 I asked for clarification as to if sequence numbers =
were per interface or per router, as the specification was unclear on =
that. The words has changed, but it still is unclear: how many sequence =
numbers does a router maintain? One? One per interface?
>=20
> AODVv2: We tried to start discussion on that point, and in the =
meantime we reverted to having 1 seqnum per router. We think the text is =
clear... we refer to "the routers sequence number" or "its sequence =
number" - never hinting that there could be multiple seqnums per router =
(as far as I'm aware).
>=20
>=20
> 27. sets/lists/tables
>=20
> Thomas:
> In my previous review, I expressed that it would be preferential to =
use =E2=80=9Ca notation of Sets=E2=80=9D rather than tables. I see that =
this has not changed.
>=20
> AODVv2: You preferred sets rather than lists in your previous =
review...and explained our reasoning for this in responses to the MANET =
list, and we did not receive further comments.
>=20
>=20
> 28. use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Thomas:
> I made a comment on node and address, let me pick this up again. The =
following:
> RteMsg.OrigAddr
> An IP address of the node which requires the route, i.e., the source =
address of the IP packet triggering the route request.
> would be more compact and clear if getting rid of the term =E2=80=9Cnode=
=E2=80=9D and said:
> RteMsg.OrigAddr
> The source address of the IP packet triggering the route request.
>=20
> AODVv2: Change made as suggested.
>=20
> 29. route table/rib/routing set
>=20
> Thomas: To section 4.6, and I (and others) have commented on this =
before:
> All AODVv2 routers MUST maintain a route table.  The route table entry =
is a conceptual data structure.  Implementations MAY use any internal =
representation but MUST contain the following information:
> In order to avoid confusion, rename this to =E2=80=9CRouting =
Information Base=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CRouting Set=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a =
Routing Table is an operating system construct, whereon operations =
directly influence packet forwarding. What you are defining here is a =
RIB/an RS.
>=20
> AODVv2: Done in version 13.
>=20
>=20
> 30. rreq for prefix, use of =E2=80=9Cip address=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Caddress"
>=20
> Thomas:
> The confusion that I pointed out in my previous review on =E2=80=9CIP =
address=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CAddress=E2=80=9D being used a bit =
haphazardly persists, fwiw. It makes me think, can a router send an RREQ =
for a prefix?
>=20
> AODVv2: See also #15. RREQ_Gen can include the prefix associated with =
OrigAddr by adding a prefix length to the message, the prefix length =
associated with the router client entry corresponding to OrigAddr. So =
all routers which receive it can learn a route to the prefix on which =
OrigAddr resides. But for TargAddr... the RREQ only has one target IP =
address - the destination IP address of the packet requiring the =
route... so what prefix length would it use? The RREQ requests a route =
to a single IP address. However, when the RREP is created, RREP_Gen =
should include the prefix length associated with the router client entry =
for TargAddr. So all routers which receive this RREP learn a route to =
the prefix TargAddr is part of (if the router client entry is configured =
with a prefix length). The text has been updated to make this more =
obvious.
>=20
>=20
> 31. next hop ip address wording
>=20
> Thomas:
> I also called this out in my previous review as incorrect, and despite =
wordsmithing it still is:
>=20
>         Route.NextHop
>               The source IP address of the message advertising the =
route to
>               Route.Address, i.e. an IP address of the AODVv2 router =
used for
>               the next hop on the path toward Route.Address.
>=20
> If that =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D is an RFC5444 entity, then it does =
to have a =E2=80=9Csource IP Address=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 the =
encapsulating IP datagram containing the packet containing the message =
does. And the message MAY have an Originator Address
>=20
> AODVv2: Updated to say =E2=80=9Cthe source IP address of the IP packet =
containing the message advertising...=E2=80=9D
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ********************************************************************
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> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi Christopher,</div><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
02.03.2016 um 11:36 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">My concerns have been =
that your co-authors have continued to discuss whether looping could =
occur since you published to the list saying all was well. (An issue to =
do with multiple unconfirmed routes.) Maybe that=E2=80=99s a problem, =
maybe it isn=E2=80=99t. But it lacks transparency, because it hasn=E2=80=99=
t been discussed here.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The loop possibility you=E2=80=99re referring to =
was a different one than the one discussed by Charlie. We=E2=80=99ve =
been contacted by researchers who are model checking MANET protocols to =
see if they permit any unwanted behaviour. They=E2=80=99ve used AODVv2 =
as a case study for the framework they=E2=80=99ve implemented to do =
this, and they=E2=80=99ve found the following loop:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"9449CB76-8F90-4B1B-9A69-1EABC96EDC99" height=3D"469" width=3D"509" =
apple-width=3D"yes" apple-height=3D"yes" =
src=3D"cid:D607E7AA-BCB5-4DB0-BCFB-599C71937307@localdomain" =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2505" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2507" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">1. n2 initiates a route discovery procedure for =
destination n3 by broadcasting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D =
message.</span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2511" =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify;"><span =
class=3D"" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2513" style=3D"font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">2. n1 and n4 upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=
=80=9D message, add a route to their routing tables towards n2 and store =
n2 as their next hop. Since it is the first time that these nodes have =
received a message from n2, the neighbor state of n2 is set to =
unconfirmed. Therefore, the route state is unconfirmed.</span></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2515" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2517" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">3. As n1 and n4 are not the intended destination of the =
route request, they rebroadcast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D =
message.</span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2519" =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', =
Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); text-align: justify;"><span =
class=3D"" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2521" style=3D"font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif;">4. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D =
message sent by n4 and since the route to n2 is unconfirmed it adds n4 =
as new next hop to n2.</span></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2523" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2525" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">5. n4 also adds n1 as the new next hop towards n2 after =
processing the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D sent by node1. At this point a =
loop is formed between n1 and n4 but not used yet.</span></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2527" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2529" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">6. n3 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent =
by n1 and since it is the destination, it sends a =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D =
message towards n1.</span></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2531" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2533" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">7. n2 moves out of n1 and n4 communication =
range.</span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2535" class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, =
'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, =
255, 255); text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2537" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">8. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message sent =
by n3 and as the route state towards n2 is unconfirmed it multicasts the =
=E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message to the existing next hops, n2 and n4. =
Since n4 is adjacent to n1, it receives the message and then sends an =
ack to n1. Therefore, n1 sets the neighbor state of n4 to confirm and =
subsequently the route state towards n2 to valid. Then expunge the next =
hop n2 which has not received an ack from.</span></div><div =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2539" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2541" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">9. n4 by receiving the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message =
from n1 multicasts it to its next hops towards n1 and n2,<br class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2543">and similar to n1 it updates its =
routing table by validating n1 as its next hop to n2. At this point, a =
loop between n1 and n4 becomes valid.</span></div></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Arial;" class=3D"">In =
response to these findings, we've changed&nbsp;6.7.1. &nbsp;Evaluating =
Route Information in -13,</span><span style=3D"font-family: Arial;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;so that LoopFree() is *always* considered before adding =
a new route, even if all known routes to date are =
Unconfirmed.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Arial;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div><font face=3D"Arial" =
class=3D"">Following up, they=E2=80=99ve found another loop in =
-13:</font></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Arial;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"A11B362D-A1F7-467C-B721-1EB31F5342C2" height=3D"521" width=3D"800" =
apple-width=3D"yes" apple-height=3D"yes" =
src=3D"cid:A5A3FD11-0335-4F98-AA48-6EC53638D7FD@localdomain" =
class=3D""></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Arial;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div><ol dir=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14504" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><li id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14773" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14790" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px;" =
class=3D"">At first nodes are connected to each other as shown in =
Fig1.a.</span><br class=3D""></li><li =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14563" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14562" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px; =
text-align: justify;" class=3D"">n0 initiates a route discovery =
procedure for destination n3 by multicasting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D =
message to n2 with sq=3D2.</span><br class=3D""></li><li =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14565" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14564" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px; =
text-align: justify;" class=3D"">n2 after updating its routing table, =
multicast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D to its neighbors, n1 and =
n3.</span><br class=3D""></li><li id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14503" =
class=3D""><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14502" =
style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; =
line-height: 17.1200008392334px; text-align: justify;" class=3D"">n1 =
upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n2 updates its =
routing table and adds a route with hop-count=3D2, sq=3D2 and =
next-hope=3D2</span><br class=3D""></li><li =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14561" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14560" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px; =
text-align: justify;" class=3D"">Consider that topology changes at this =
point and n1 moves into communication range of n0, gets connected to n0, =
and n2 leaves n0 communication range, gets disconnected from n0, which =
leads to network topology shown in Fig1.b.</span><br class=3D""></li><li =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14536" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14535" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px; =
text-align: justify;" class=3D"">n0, which hasn=E2=80=99t received an =
=E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D yet, resend the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message =
after increasing its sequence number to 3.</span><br class=3D""></li><li =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14538" class=3D""><span =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14537" style=3D"font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px; =
text-align: justify;" class=3D"">n1 receives the new =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D=
 message, with sq=3D3, next-hop=3D0 and hop-count=3D1, since it=E2=80=99s =
a better route it would be added to the routing table. Then n1 multicast =
the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message to its neighbors, n2 and =
n3.</span><br class=3D""></li><li id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14534" =
class=3D""><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14533" =
style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; font-size: 12pt; =
line-height: 17.1200008392334px; text-align: justify;" class=3D"">n2 =
evaluate the received message sent by n1 and adds a new route to its =
routing table with sq=3D3, next-hop=3D1 and hop-count=3D2 since the =
sequence number of the received message is greater than the stored =
one.</span><br class=3D""></li></ol><div class=3D"" =
id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14441" style=3D"font-family: =
HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', =
sans-serif; font-size: 16px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); =
text-align: justify;"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14443" =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; line-height: 17.1200008392334px; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;">At this point a loop has =
been formed between nodes n1 and n2.</span></div></div><div><font =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Arial" class=3D"">Since we=E2=80=99ve moved to disallowing =
multiple Unconfirmed routes (in -14, which isn=E2=80=99t published yet), =
this one is resolved already as well.</font></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div>The reason we didn=E2=80=99t =
discuss this earlier on [manet] was that the authors hadn=E2=80=99t =
submitted their paper yet (and I didn=E2=80=99t want to leak their =
work). They=E2=80=99ve done so now, and will send us a link to their =
paper once it=E2=80=99s available. I=E2=80=99m guessing it=E2=80=99ll =
take a while to be published properly, but it should be enough for for =
our purposes for the paper to appear on <a href=3D"http://arxiv.org" =
class=3D"">arxiv.org</a> for now=E2=80=A6</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Lotte</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; color: =
windowtext;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Charlie Perkins [<a =
href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>01 =
March 2016 01:08<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher (UK); =
manet<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] AODVv2 =
responses to recent comments<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;"><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size:=
 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">This message originates from outside our organisation, either =
from an external partner or the internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully =
whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For information =
regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;">Hello Chris,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 1/19/2016 5:37 AM, Dearlove, =
Christopher (UK) wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">And outside those 31, =
that we=E2=80=99re at this position with a suggestion there=E2=80=99s =
possible looping (about which I have no idea) isn=E2=80=99t that =
comforting.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I hope your concerns have =
been resolved on this matter.&nbsp; The paper mentioned on the mailing =
list pointed out various ambiguities in RFC 3561 described how the =
ambiguities might be construed to install self-routes and, combined with =
possible inconsistent choices for sequence number, loops could =
result.&nbsp; But the email to the list several weeks ago indicated that =
these ambiguities do not exist in AODVv2.&nbsp; The authors of that =
paper have expressed interest in doing a similar analysis on AODVv2.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Other discussion about routing loops has not =
identified routing loop problems in the existing specification.&nbsp; =
Use of unconfirmed or invalid routes for routing might lead to errors, =
but that doesn't carry over to produce loops in the route table.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm looking for any other open issues outside =
of the Security Considerations which is being reworked according to =
recent comments but should be submitted soon.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Regards,<br class=3D"">Charlie P.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">There=E2=80=99s also a lot of document to review. Which of =
course I haven=E2=80=99t done at this time. But my attention did alight =
on the IANA considerations section, and I noted there that:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">- =
Not sure why the jump to 10 for message types, though I=E2=80=99m not =
opposed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">- The PATH_METRIC TLV can=E2=80=99t be type 10, that=E2=80=99s =
already taken. See IANA register.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">- We previously pointed out that =
CONT_SEQ_NUM (COMPLETE) already exists and does the job that SEQ_NUM is =
doing, so why allocate another TLV? (You could avoid the necessity of =
repeating (COMPLETE) by simply commenting once and thereafter =
omitting.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">- Why the suggested skipping of types 12 to 14?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">--</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D"">Senior Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></b><br class=3D""><b class=3D"">T</b>: =
&nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">BAE =
Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England =
&amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, =
Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Victoria =
Mercieca<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>18 January 2016 21:45<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>manet<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] AODVv2 responses to =
recent comments</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">*** =
WARNING ***</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><em class=3D"">This message originates =
from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</em><i class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D"">Consider =
carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments or =
reply.</em><br class=3D""><em class=3D"">For information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></em><strong class=3D"">Red =
Flags</strong><em class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you can look out for =
in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</em><br class=3D""><em class=3D"">If =
you feel the email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</em></i><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">*<strong class=3D"">** WARNING ***</strong><br =
class=3D"">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">We have just released the newest AODVv2 draft. The =
major update is the separation of the AODVv2 route set from the RIB.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Here are also responses to the comments =
received before Christmas. This should include all the points from =
Thomas Clausen regarding versions 11 and 12, and also a couple of other =
points which have been brought up since. Apologies for the huge email. =
For issues that need further discussion, I have tried to include the =
main points of the discussion so far. Please feel free to create a =
separate thread for any further discussion.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We are still looking into the loop conditions recently =
reported for AODV, also still working on the text about security, and =
use of msg-hop-limit.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Kind regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Victoria.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br class=3D"">1. End-to-end / =
hop-by-hop acks - issue when a route is marked as confirmed and valid =
when the link to the next hop is confirmed as bidirectional (but the =
links downstream have not yet been verified as bidirectional).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: The authors believe this is an issue =
which would not occur frequently, and would right itself.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This only occurs for the route to OrigAddr. What needs to =
happen for this to occur is that an intermediate node that takes part in =
the route discovery between OrigAddr and TargAddr coincidentally has =
packets to send to OrigAddr in the time between confirming the link to =
its own next hop toward OrigAddr is bidirectional, and the time taken =
for all other routers on the path to confirm their next hops too. If the =
route is used to forward packets before every other link in the path is =
confirmed as bidirectional, and the data packets are forwarded faster =
than the RREP and any RREP_Acks, then yes they could be delivered to a =
router without a valid route to OrigAddr. Alternatively if one of the =
links turns out to be unidirectional then the data packets will also =
arrive at a router without a valid route. In these cases, RERR messages =
will be generated toward the source of the traffic, the route to =
OrigAddr will be deleted at routers back toward TargAddr, but if data =
packets are still flowing from any source to OrigAddr, the route will be =
re-requested by the router responsible for discovering routes for the =
source of the data.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The changes required to =
make acknowledgements end-to-end would require a lot more control =
traffic and be necessary for every route discovery and in almost all =
cases would be unnecessary.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Text has been =
added to the draft in =E2=80=9CLocal Route State Changes=E2=80=9D to =
describe this.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">2. Buffering<br =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFThomas:<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CIt would seem that =
buffering, as specified, does not accomplish what<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">it states =
that it accomplishes: packets are (as you describe) still being<br =
class=3D"">sent while no route is available, and therefore will be =
dropped later.<br class=3D"">=3D&gt; Consequently, it seems that =
buffering is a futile exercise?=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: =EF=BB=BFPackets are buffered before a route exists. =
A router only begins sending them when it deems the route to be valid. =
In general, buffering is not futile.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">True, =
there is this case outlined above where the router could deem the route =
valid before the bidirectionality check has happened for each and every =
hop. If the links chosen for the route are not all bidirectional, then =
yes, any data packets forwarded along this route will end up being =
dropped at some point on that path.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">This case is =
caused by the RREP_Ack being hop-by-hop, and not caused by buffering.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: =EF=BB=BF<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CBuffers=
 have huge impacts on TCP performance, and I doubt if the issues on e.g. =
TCP are well enough understood by this WG (Bufferbloat was an example of =
where people got it wrong, despite having extensive experience).=E2=80=9D<=
br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Packets will only be buffered while =
a route is requested. The TCP packets buffered will be packets for =
session initialisation. The authors believe that buffering these will =
have a positive effect. Some references have been suggested, listed =
here, the first of which has been included in the draft:<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-20010=
9-koodli.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-20=
0109-koodli.pdf</a><br class=3D"">Mobile Internetworking with IPv6: =
Concepts, Principles and Practices {Koodli, Perkins}<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutor=
ial.ppt" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.=
ppt</a><br class=3D"">Analysis of TCP performance over mobile ad hoc =
networks<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D313540" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D313540</a><br =
class=3D"">Alternatively, we could remove the mention of TCP, and =
instead state that buffering MAY be used for packets awaiting a route, =
but that implementation and implications of this are out of scope for =
AODVv2.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">3. Use of =
msg-hop-limit and msg-hop-count:<br class=3D"">Thomas:<br class=3D"">But, =
either way, as according to your model messages are never forwarded, but =
always are intended for receipt by a router which is a direct neighbor, =
then a &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; &gt;1 (which applies to the message) seems =
inappropriate.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">Actually, according to that model, I would even say that =
receipt of a message with a &lt;msg-hop-count&gt; &gt;1 should be =
interpreted as a malfunction.<br class=3D"">As you refer to RFC5444 =
appendix B, do note that Appendix B of RFC5444 (and, note the errata =
4003) talks about:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; field, if present, contains the number of hops on =
which the message is allowed to travel before being discarded by a MANET =
router.&nbsp; The &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; is set by the message originator =
and is used to prevent messages from endlessly circulating in a =
MANET.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">Specifically =E2=80=9Cset by the message originator=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9Cnumber of hops on which the message is allowed to travel=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=94 with your control messages traveling just one hop, I =
believe that setting &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; =3D 1 is correct.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Discussion is still needed here. We =
wonder if these fields are necessary at all for AODVv2. We were using =
them to limit the number of regenerations of a RREQ. However, the hop =
limit value needs to be large enough to allow a RREQ from one side of =
the network to another. It might be the case that using the hop limit, =
almost every router in the network would receive that RREQ anyway, and =
by using the redundancy check, we already stop RREQs from circulating =
endlessly.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">4. Abstract<br =
class=3D"">Thomas:<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI made the following comment, =
which still applies:<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CThis is a little =
over-stating the applicability: these statements may be true in some =
scenarios (for example, when there are few concurrent traffic flows, and =
therefore few routes to repair, and therefore few flooding operations to =
contend for channel access). As a general statement, this last sentence =
is incorrect=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: The =
text has been removed and the abstract now states: =E2=80=9C The Ad Hoc =
On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing protocol is =
intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop networks.&nbsp; =
AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within the network =
in an on-demand fashion.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">5,9,12,13,20. Router Client<br class=3D"">Thomas:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CI =
made a comment previously that =E2=80=9CRouter client=E2=80=9D is a =
poorly chosen term, and have proposed alternatives. I=E2=80=99ve seen =
some attempts on the list at rather than change the term, explain it =E2=80=
=94 some of which is in this document. The =E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=9D =
still talks about =E2=80=9Ca router=E2=80=A6one of its clients=E2=80=9D =
- which is no less confusing than last time Iw went through it.<br =
class=3D"">I reiterate, why not use =E2=80=9CLocal Attached Network =
Set=E2=80=9D, which is the term used by other documents from this =
WG?=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: We already answered =
this suggestion on the MANET list and asked for comments and =
suggestions, and no responses were received. We have defined what we =
mean by Router Client, and the terminology has so far not changed. =
However, some alternatives have been suggested, so if you feel any of =
these are more effective, please let us know:<br =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Advertised IP Address: =
puts the emphasis on advertisement rather than topological connection<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Accessible IP Address: puts the =
emphasis on accessibility through the particular router =E2=80=93 not =
bad<br class=3D"">=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reduced Function Device =
[RFD]: doesn=E2=80=99t roll off the tongue, but this is terminology used =
for L2R in IEEE 802 Wireless for a similar situation<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Accessible Device Address: adds =
some emphasis for the device as well as the address<br =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Stably Connected IP =
Address: nothing is permanent, of course, but the router client set is =
thought to be relatively stable<br class=3D"">=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Topologically Connected IP address: ... suggests that a "topological =
connection" is stable compared to wireless<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Administratively Assigned IP =
address: ... somehow does not connote the "otherness" of the router =
client devices.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">6. Overview - adjacency<br =
class=3D"">Thomas:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">The term =E2=80=9Cconfirming adjacency=E2=80=9D is gone, and =
is now replaced by =E2=80=9Cconfirming bidirectionality=E2=80=9D - =
which, alas, still sounds like there is some active monitoring (HELLO =
message exchange) going on. Unless that is the case, then please be more =
specific here.<br class=3D"">I note that the term adjacency is used =
through and through the document, btw.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: The text has been updated to avoid the word =
adjacency. We do not believe the text implies active monitoring through =
HELLO messages.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">7. Overview - forwarding =
plane<br class=3D"">Thomas: I suggested in my last review: The overview =
must also include a paragraph on the intersections between this protocol =
and the forwarding plane =E2=80=94 this, as it is different (and more =
invasive) from that which is typically seen in routing protocols.<br =
class=3D"">Specifically, as a reactive protocol, it is required (at =
least) that the forwarding plane is modified :<br class=3D"">1) A =
=E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when looking up a next hop for a data packet to =
be forwarded, is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to permit that =
route discovery be launched;<br class=3D"">2) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D =
when attempting to deliver a data packet to a next hop, which was =
recorded in the routing table, is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as =
to permit that a route repair be initiated and/or a Route Error be =
generated.<br class=3D"">3) A =E2=80=9Chit=E2=80=9D when looking up a =
next hop for a data packet to be forwarded to a destination is signalled =
to the AODVv2 process so as to permit maintenance of =E2=80=9Cactive =
route=E2=80=9D Route State, timers and such.<br class=3D"">Note that =
these things are necessary to call out in the =E2=80=9Coverview=E2=80=9D =
and in the =E2=80=9Capplicability statement=E2=80=9D, both: it is not =
that they are negatives per se, but that they are important factors =
governing the applicability of this protocol: will a given platform =
permit such access to the forwarding plane, for example? Important to =
understand if for that platform this protocol is apple<br class=3D"">I =
see that this was not addressed in the overview, nor in the =
applicability other than by a forward reference to section 6.4. While it =
is positive that there is a section 6.4, this does not exonerate the =
overview and the applicability statement for being honest about the =
requirements (notably to the platform/os) that this protocol has for =
being applicable<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: The Overview and =
the Applicability Statement now refer to these basic requirements for =
the interaction with the forwarding plane. The Applicability Statement =
also contains the reference to the later section which describes this in =
more detail.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">8. 7182 and security<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: I suggested in my last review: It is =
important to do more than this: 7182 does only provide =E2=80=9Ccontainers=
=E2=80=9D for ICVs and timestamps, and does not specify how to use them =
to obtain specific security properties. RFC7182 may be a tool that can =
be used, but how* that tool is used is what determines the security =
properties.<br class=3D"">Therefore, saying that =E2=80=9Csecurity is =
dealt with by using RFC7182=E2=80=9D is either an incomplete statement, =
or is indicative of insufficient security considerations.=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D"">The actual sentence in the I-D has been changed, now it =
explicitly names the two TLVs from 7182 that it uses. That is, alas, =
still not sufficient.<br class=3D"">Making the aside that was discussed =
recently on the list, that (i) control messages are not forwarded, and =
that (ii) they are modified in transit, the security/trust model is =
somewhat different from that of 7181 and consequently for what 7182 was =
initially written for. I think that&nbsp; calling out the trust model, =
and how 7182 actually is used here, might be what is called for.<br =
class=3D"">Continuing with the aside, this *especially* as the =
applicability statement says: "Providing security for a reactive routing =
protocol can be difficult=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas:<br=
 class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOK, so assume that I understand regeneration as per =
my previous email, as meaning =E2=80=9Cgenerate a new message and send =
to my neighbors, based on what I learned when processing a received =
message=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 just like any distance vector protocol =
does.<br class=3D"">In that model, what you write makes sense: each =
originator of a control message (i.e., whoever generates or regenerates =
it) is free to include the information it desires, such as the 4 points =
you list above. No issues with that.<br class=3D"">However, and this =
joins what I pointed out in a previous email, you write in the =
applicability statement: "Providing security for a reactive routing =
protocol can be difficult."<br class=3D"">While we can discuss if the =
nature of&nbsp;=E2=80=9Creactive routing protocol=E2=80=9D generates =
particular difficulties, we certainly can agree that this protocol has =
the same&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cdifficulties=E2=80=9D as a distance vector =
protocol: routing&nbsp;topology information (by definition) not being =
exchanged end-to-end, but between neighbors (who do&nbsp;calculations =
and generate their own announcements&nbsp;=E2=80=94 regeneration, as you =
call it).<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">This means that a specific security model of transitive trust =
must be assumed, no? I trust Victoria,&nbsp;therefore when Victoria =
says&nbsp;=E2=80=9CStan told me=E2=80=9D&nbsp;then I trust that =
she&nbsp;actually verified that "it was indeed Stan who told =
her&nbsp;=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D&nbsp;=E2=80=94 and either way, I have no way =
of verifying?<br class=3D"">I did not see the trust model / trust =
assumption discussed in the specification (specifically not in =
applicability and in section 13, both of where it should be called out), =
but I think that this is actually a crucial point to get right, in order =
to approach developing the MTI security mechanisms.<br class=3D"">Anyways,=
 that observation actually contrasts strongly with what the =
applicability statement then goes on to say, namely:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 provides for message integrity and =
security against replay<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; attacks by using =
integrity check values, timestamps and sequence<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 numbers, as described in Section 13.<br class=3D"">This is true only in =
as much as messages are indeed exchanged between neighbors: when =
you&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cregenerate=E2=80=9D a message, i.e., generate a =
new&nbsp;message in response to receipt of a message, you generate brand =
new payload (but possibly including some of&nbsp;the data from the =
received message, of course): thus, any ICVs&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cfrom farther =
away than the neighbor=E2=80=9D&nbsp;will be useless (or, if you zero =
out the parts that you change, these parts will not be protected).<br =
class=3D"">The above sentence, quoted from the applicability statement, =
and that which transpires from section 13, seems - certainly, absent the =
trust model assumed - to suggest that end-to-end protection/validation =
is provided. But, this is not the case.<br class=3D"">Finally to the =
applicability statement, a question:<br class=3D"">If security =
associations can be established, encryption can be used for AODVv2 =
messages to ensure that only trusted routers participate in routing =
operations.<br class=3D"">What you want to say here is that =E2=80=9Cif =
all trusted routers have a shared secret, then we=E2=80=99re able to use =
that shared secret to ignore non-trusted routers=E2=80=9D, right?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">While =
=E2=80=9Csecurity associations=E2=80=9D that do not pass through a =
shared secret probably can be thought up, it=E2=80=99s not trivial and I =
did not find any discussion of that in the document?<br class=3D"">Having,=
 on the topic of security, re-read Section 13, which starts:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; This section describes various security =
considerations and potential<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; avenues to =
secure AODVv2 routing.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">While this =
is an honest description of what follows, I remain convinced that this =
is not sufficient. So let me ask as precisely as I can:<br class=3D"">o =
what is the MTI security mechanism that a conformant implementation must =
provide?&nbsp;Specifically: - which are the processing steps (for =
example in section 7.2.1&nbsp;and section 7.2.2 for RREP - and similarly =
for the other message&nbsp;types) that define that security mechanism<br =
class=3D"">o what protection is offered by that MTI security mechanism? =
And what remains vulnerable.<br class=3D"">If this specification targets =
std.track, then it should include (reasonably solid, but definitely well =
specified) MTI security.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Chris Dearlove:<br =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFThere are two potential choices:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">- RREQ has an integrity check value to indicate that someone =
trusted created it, if not necessarily the destination. That someone =
might be identifiable or not.<br class=3D"">- RREQ has a signature that =
indicates that the destination created it.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Unfortunately, an RREQ that changes as it is forwarded =
(aggregating data of any sort) makes the second option tricky, unless =
there=E2=80=99s some sort of aggregating signature as it is forwarded. =
But I=E2=80=99m not an expert on the latter.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The most trivial case of the former is simply that everyone =
trusted has a single shared key. That has obvious issues =E2=80=93 =
although it was good enough that embodied as RFC 7183 we could get 7181 =
through the system (as a =E2=80=9Cmust implement, do not need to use=E2=80=
=9D minimal case). Alternatively something identity-based (e.g. =
draft-ietf-manet-ibs) could be used, so you know who created the message =
you received, but you are relying on a chain of trust, hop by hop. At =
which point you might as well just sign packets (see RFC 7182).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">But in even the weakest case (the single =
shared key used hop by hop) there has to be a failure for things to go =
wrong - either loss of key (in which case all bets are off) or suborning =
one router (who can do quite a lot of damage).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I haven't read the latest AODVv2 draft yet, but this sort of =
thing should be described in its security considerations - the previous =
draft though didn't discuss this as far as I recall.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Chris Dearlove:<br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFIf you go down this =
route of assuming transitive trust, then you might as well use 7182=E2=80=99=
s packet ICV and timestamp rather than message ICV and timestamp.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">There is a complication (mostly one of =
presentation) that the 5444 multiplexer (rather than AODVv2) needs to do =
this, at least for packets containing AODVv2 messages (but at which =
point, probably all 5444 packets). So you either, depending on your =
point of view, need to request it to do that, or (administratively) =
decline to operate except over a 5444 multiplexer that is doing this.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">The advantage is one of saved space and =
time when packets contain more than one message. Plus slightly better =
protection (hop count and limit are covered) but which probably =
doesn=E2=80=99t matter here.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D"">If =
messages are changed/replaced on a one-to-one basis as forwarded, then =
the only solutions I can see are hop by hop transitive trust (packets or =
messages per hop), or something complicated involving aggregation and =
knowledge of changes. But the latter would be a research task to =
develop, so let=E2=80=99s not try that.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Jiazi=
 Yi:<br class=3D"">I=EF=BB=BF agree with Chris and Thomas on their =
concerns on the hop-by-hop security issue.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">This is very =
different from classical DV protocol, in which the vector information is =
designed to be exchanged between neighbours.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">In AODVv2, =
the RREQ/RREP/RERR are to be forwarded through multiple hops. A router =
can sign a message that isn't actually initialised by itself -- this is, =
at least, against intuition.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">This can be =
an issue if we have compromised routers in the network. Of course, a =
compromised router is a problem for every protocol, like OLSRv2. But in =
OLSRv2, a compromised router can only speak on behalf of itself -- =
however, in AODVv2, a compromised/mis-configured router can pretend to =
be any other router (for example, generate RREQ messages using another =
address as OrigAddr).&nbsp; The consequence will be much more serious if =
that happens.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: This is not yet addressed.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">9. Terminology - host, routers, router =
clients:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: My last review suggested:<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CThis has been brought up on the list several times =
in the past, without having been addressed.<br class=3D"">There are =
=E2=80=9Chosts=E2=80=9D and there are =E2=80=9Crouters=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 =
whose roles are well defined. Node=E2=80=9D not so much =E2=80=94 which =
is clear from looking at the definition here: =E2=80=9Ceither AODVv2 =
routers or router clients=E2=80=9D (with =E2=80=9Crouter clients=E2=80=9D =
being defined as =E2=80=9Can AODVv2 router is also its own router =
client=E2=80=9D).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">This is very much related =
to the use of =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D, and both that term, and =
=E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D indicative that some clarity is needed here.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">All a router cares about is =E2=80=9Can =
address=E2=80=9D. If that address is of a network, or a router, or an =
interface (and, if said interface is installed in a router or a host) =
doesn=E2=80=99t matter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So, =E2=80=9Can =
address=E2=80=9D is something that the routing protocol should care =
about finding paths to. Which means that each address that should be =
made reachable by the routing protocol should be advertised by (at =
least) one router in the network.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">One way =
of doing that would be to simply talk about =E2=80=9CAttached =
Networks=E2=80=9D as is done in RFC7181, wherein an address included in =
the =E2=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D is advertised by an OLSRv2 =
router....in this case, the equivalent would be =E2=80=9Cfor each =
address in the Attached Network Set of an AODVv2 router the router MUST =
respond authoritatively to a RREQ, and MUST maintain the corresponding =
sequence number=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D"">The text, as it currently is, is =
really hard to read, and a re-edit along these lines would go a long =
way.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I note that the terms =
=E2=80=9CNode=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D are still =
used, in their original form, and that other than some slight =
wordsmithing this comment has not been addressed in the document.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I reiterate that the need to use router, host, =
node, and router client in and by itself should be an indicator that =
tightening up of terminology is required.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: See 5. The use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D has been =
addressed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">10. Terminology and elsewhere - =
address<br class=3D"">Thomas: I made the following comment to Routable =
Unicast IP Address:<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CAre there any technical =
reason why not simply *any* address could be considered by the routing =
protocol?<br class=3D"">My understanding, but correct me if I am wrong, =
is that all that is required is that all interfaces in a given AODVv2 =
routing domain has an unique address.<br class=3D"">That some of these =
addresses (by an IP addressing architecture document) has special =
semantics associated (such as are link locals, or are for private use, =
or are for example use only, or are for multicast) is out of scope =
here?<br class=3D"">I see nothing has changed on the above, so let me be =
more explicit: the routing protocol itself probably) should not care =
about what kind of addresses are filled into it. Is an 192.16./16 =
address appropriate? Not across the internet, but it may be in =
somebody=E2=80=99s private deployments. Should the routing protocol be =
=E2=80=9Caddress police=E2=80=9D and is implementation of a =E2=80=9CI =
refuse to route these addresses=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D a requirement for =
claiming conformance? Suggest simply stating what the requirements are =
under which the routing protocol will work =E2=80=94 and leave =
=E2=80=9Caddress assignment politics=E2=80=9D aside.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: We ask for clarification on this issue. We use the =
phrase =E2=80=9Croutable and unicast=E2=80=9D in the draft with respect =
to OrigAddr and TargAddr. We dont mean to exclude addresses from the =
private address ranges. But we dont want to request routes for =
multicast, indeterminate, link-local, or loopback addresses. This is not =
about router interface addresses which are used for AODVv2.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">11. Multiple interfaces with the same IP =
address, 6621 implications<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: I also =
continued:<br class=3D"">Now, with that being said also, the WG wanted =
that RFC7181 supports not just multiple interfaces, but also the same =
address used on multiple interfaces of the same router. There were good =
reasons for that, and while it was not trivial to implement, it turned =
out to be the right thing to support. If there are technical reasons why =
this is not supported in AODVv2 (for example, if this cannot be made =
work because of &lt;reason&gt;) then that should be called out in the =
applicability statement also?<br class=3D"">Conversely, if it is =
possible in AODVv2, then I do not believe that it is clearly specified =
how (at least, in the =E2=80=9Cnaive=E2=80=9D on paper examples I drew =
up, something ended up not working). So either the protocol as-is does =
not support it (but could be made to?) or it is supported (but just need =
to be spelled out), or is not possible (and need to be disclaimed in the =
applicability statement).<br class=3D"">Stan Ratliff was a driving force =
in holding the WG=E2=80=99s collective feet to the fire in getting this =
support included in RFC7181, and would likely be the right person to =
consult on this matter?<br class=3D"">I actually have not seen changes, =
or comments, on this. In OLSRv2, the WG was making it a strong =
requirement that it should be possible to use the same IP address on =
different interfaces of a router. It was somewhat tedious to design =
around, but it was worked out, and the conditions under which that was =
possible were defined and documented.<br class=3D"">I would like to see =
the same done for this protocol.<br class=3D"">I also note that this is =
not unrelated to RFC6621-discussions. For example, when selecting S-MPRs =
on a multi-interface and multi-address-per-interface router, care must =
be taken least things won=E2=80=99t work. So, if (and this links back to =
previous mails) RFC6621 is a requirement or desire for this protocol, =
then there are some considerations required here.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: We have removed references to RFC 6621.<br =
class=3D"">Initial thoughts on this topic of multiple interfaces using =
the same IP address, is that this wouldn=E2=80=99t cause a problem, if =
the router has only one sequence number. However, this is up for further =
discussion.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">12. Interfaces configured as =
router clients<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: I see that the =
definition of =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D has changed to be<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CAn address or address range=E2=80=A6the AODVv2 =
router=E2=80=99s interface addresses are also configured as router =
clients=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">Better than before, but still missing the =
target. The term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D is, as I indicated =
numerous times before, odd.<br class=3D"">But the second part of the =
sentence, does that mean (what it says) that the interfaces must be =
configured specially, so as to be able to be =E2=80=9Crouter clients=E2=80=
=9D? That can=E2=80=99t be true.<br class=3D"">What you likely mean =
is:<br class=3D"">An AODVv2 router is configured so as to consider its =
own interfaces as part of the locally attached network set=E2=80=9D ?<br =
class=3D"">You configure the router, right? No special =E2=80=9Cinterface =
configuration properties=E2=80=9D are required for an interface to be =
announcable by&nbsp; an AODVv2 router? (And, getting rid of node would =
actually make the definition shorter and nicer)<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: The wording we use says: "The IP Addresses of the =
router's interfaces will appear in the Router Client Table." and in the =
Terminology: "The AODVv2 router's interface addresses are also =
configured as Router Clients." Both statements say that =E2=80=98interface=
 addresses are configured as router clients=E2=80=99 ...we are not sure =
why this is misunderstood. We have a router client list, and the AODVv2 =
router=E2=80=99s interface addresses are included in this list. The =
interface itself doesn=E2=80=99t have special =E2=80=9Cinterface =
configuration properties=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">13 - =
more on router clients<br class=3D"">Thomas: Now, snipping out from the =
applicability statement:<br class=3D"">"Multi-homing of an IP address is =
not supported by AODVv2, and therefore a Router Client, i.e. an IP =
Address,&nbsp; =E2=80=A6 "<br class=3D"">=E2=80=A6evidence to there =
being some redundant terminology here to weed away.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: That was there as a reminder that a router client is =
based on IP address, even though the device with that IP address may =
have other IP addresses too. It=E2=80=99s the IP address that is the =
router client, not the device as a whole with its entire collection of =
configured IP addresses. One IP address of that device might be =
configured as a router client on one router, and a different IP address =
of that device could be configured as a router client on another router. =
The IP addresses would seem to AODVv2 to be on different devices.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">14. data elements<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: The below is a little bit of a =
meta-comment, I am not quite sure what I think here. The definitions for =
Target Node and such were confusing before. They still are, somewhat.<br =
class=3D"">I think that it may be because the definitions now used are =
simply copy-pasted out from the tables in the previous version, for =
example:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CAn AODVv2 Data Element =
containing the destination address of the IP packet triggering route =
discovery.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">OK, I can trace back and see that a =
Data Element is something that exists inside a protocol message. To me, =
however, that=E2=80=99s not really general terminology as such, but part =
of the specification of a packet format - or rather, it is the notation =
that you use when describing an algorithm. By the way, why are some =
notations in CamelCase whereas others have a space in them, e.g. =
=E2=80=9CTarget Node=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CTargMetric=E2=80=9D, both of =
which are Data Elements? Would be good with a consistent approach =
here.<br class=3D"">I *think* that it would be better to take all those =
=E2=80=9CData Element=E2=80=9D bits and move to a separate section (or =
subsection) to the terminology, and then keep all the =E2=80=9Cother =
stuff=E2=80=9D (Neighbor, =E2=80=A6) in its own section.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">AODVv2: Your comment from draft 11 where we already had data =
elements in a separate table, says:<br class=3D"">"Also suggest =
abolishing this table and folding the definitions in with the other =
definitions in the terminology section."<br class=3D"">We have updated =
to not refer so heavily to the term Data Element. All the terms are =
described in the Terminology section. Those in CamelCase are used as =
message fields.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">15. Route =
=E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">Thomas:<br =
class=3D"">I made a comment: Second, should =E2=80=9Cvalid route=E2=80=9D =
not be qualified by =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D?=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D"">Which was not addressed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: =
Every route is to a specific address...the address is specified by =
Route.Address and Route.PrefixLength.<br class=3D"">Do you mean that =
routes are to the address TargAddr or OrigAddr and therefore to a =
specific host address rather than to a network prefix? This is not the =
case. Prefix Length is included in AODVv2 messages so that the route =
learned from the message represents the prefix which OrigAddr or =
TargAddr resides on (if the router client entry corresponding to =
OrigAddr at RREQ_Gen or TargAddr at RREP_Gen is configured with a prefix =
length). e.g. OrigAddr is 10.0.0.1 but the corresponding router client =
entry at RREQ_Gen could be<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"http://10.0.0.0/8"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">10.0.0.0/8</a>. So when constructing the RREQ you include a =
prefix length of 8, and when receiving the RREQ and learning the route =
to OrigAddr, you can install a route to<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"http://10.0.0.0/8"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">10.0.0.0/8</a>.&nbsp; Text has been updated to make this more =
obvious.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">16. unreachable address<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: I also made a comment on "Unreachable =
Address=E2=80=9D - I am glad I did, because I apparently had a different =
understanding than what was intended. I now see that an Unreachable =
Address by definition is an address listed in a RERR message, and not =
the same as an address to which no route has yet&nbsp; been discovered? =
If yes, then please use a different term, such as =
FormerlyReachableAddress=E2=80=9D or something of the sort?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: "Formerly reachable" is inaccurate... =
we send a RERR if another router forwards a packet via us, and we dont =
have a route, not just when we lose a route. We might never have had a =
route, or might never have had a valid route, so the address may not =
have been "formerly reachable". Also, I think "FormerlyReachableAddress" =
is a really ugly term. Unreachable means "we don=E2=80=99t have a route =
and we aren=E2=80=99t going to request one" or "we lost this route" =
(depending on why the RERR is being sent). It doesn=E2=80=99t mean "we =
didn=E2=80=99t request one yet", and it would be wrong to class an =
address as unreachable because we hadn=E2=80=99t requested a route for =
it yet, that is, assuming it=E2=80=99s configured as a router =
client.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If a better term is suggested we could =
consider changing but at the moment we have kept =E2=80=9CUnreachable =
Address=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">17. =
Applicability - multiple interfaces same address, 6621 again<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: Applicability statement: First, I =
would like to recognize the efforts made to improve this since last =
review. Thanks<br class=3D"">Second, the document states: "AODVv2 =
supports routers with multiple interfaces, as long as each interface =
configured for AODVv2 has a unicast IP address.&nbsp; A router may use =
the same IP address on multiple interfaces.&nbsp; Address assignment =
procedures are out of scope for AODVv2.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">Is that =
true? Granted, I have not worked this through in detail, but I can =
present a counter-example: the use of RFC6621 means that there certainly =
are some constraints that must be respected least various flooding =
optimizations may not work.<br class=3D"">Secondly, if the =
multiple-interfaces-with-same-address are on the same L2, and this is =
what I have not worked through, are there any situations that will not =
work?<br class=3D"">The immediately previous version of this =
specification read:<br class=3D"">"AODVv2 supports routers with multiple =
interfaces, as long as each interface configured for AODVv2 has its own =
unicast routable IP address"<br class=3D"">So what changed that means =
that each interface no longer needs its *own* unicast address?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Well, based on previous questions on =
this, we talked it through and decided there shouldn=E2=80=99t be an =
issue if different interfaces of a router used the same IP address. Note =
that we changed AODVv2 so that there is one sequence number per router. =
No longer can a router use different sequence numbers on different =
interfaces. If an RREQ went out of two interfaces using the same =
address, we worked it through and decided the request would be processed =
correctly.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">Also, text referring to RFC 6621 has been removed.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">18. Applicability and appendix - =
multihoming<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: I pointed out to the =
Applicability Statement:<br class=3D"">I think that appendix B needs to =
be removed. Essentially, it makes claims that it is possible to do =
multi-homing =E2=80=94 but neither specifies how it is done, nor gives =
pointers to documents that justify the claim.<br class=3D"">AODVv2 does =
not support multi-homing =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s clear, and it is fine =
that it is called out here. Thank you for that.<br class=3D"">Now, with =
that being said, I am torn between being satisfied that it is called out =
on one hand, and wanting to have =E2=80=9Cmulti homing=E2=80=9D on the =
other hand. RFC7181 supports multi-homing, FWIW.<br class=3D"">I believe =
that this also would merit some explicit discussion by the WG, in order =
to understand if this design decision is acceptable?<br class=3D"">I see =
that Appendix B still is in the document, and I do not recall having =
seen this discussed on the mailing list. Simply removing the reference =
from the Applicability Statement to Appendix B does not address the =
issue that I raised in my previous review.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: Appendix has been removed and may appear in a future =
informational document.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">19. interfaces list =
- use of =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: =
To 4.1, I made the following comment:<br class=3D"">"Is this a should, =
or a SHOULD? If the latter, should it be a MUST?<br class=3D"">In =
general, there are a lot of such =E2=80=9Cmaybe normative language=E2=80=9D=
 through the document, and I would much like to see an editorial pass =
=E2=80=94 essentially all may/should/ must and friends carefully =
evaluated as if they should become 2119-terms, and ... more importantly =
(it has been called out before, fwiw) quite a bit of should/SHOULD which =
ought to be transformed into MUST.<br class=3D"">Generally, aiming for a =
very a low number of SHOULD is a good design metric for a document=E2=80=9D=
<br class=3D"">Aside from the general comment on 2119-language, why is =
this a SHOULD?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: We changed this =
instance to a MUST and will be checking for =E2=80=9Cmaybe normative =
language=E2=80=9D.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">20. =
Router client - Local Attached Network Set<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:<br class=3D"">As =
indicated earlier, I believe that the term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D=
 is ill chosen. I believe that it is more appropriately an =E2=80=9CAttach=
ed Network Set=E2=80=9D since =E2=80=94 as indicated previously =E2=80=94 =
the term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D is ambiguous. I am pleased to =
see, though, that this =E2=80=9CRouter Client List=E2=80=9D in reality =
is an =E2=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D and so that change should =
be (relatively) easy.<br class=3D"">The above comment still is =
applicable to this revision,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: See =
5,9,12,13.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">21. Subnet<br =
class=3D"">Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:<br =
class=3D"">Also, I recommend to not say =E2=80=9Csubnet=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
 how about rephrasing to =E2=80=9CIf a prefix is included in the =
attached network set of an AODVv2 router, then that AODVv2 router MUST =
provide connectivity for, i.e. answer to RREQs and maintain sequence =
numbers for, all addresses from within that prefix.=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D"">I note that while the term has been removed from section 4, =
there=E2=80=99re 4 lingering instances of this term in the document, =
that could easily be removed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: All =
mentions of "subnet" were in the ENAR section. They have been updated to =
say network, or "networks attached to the routers"<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">22. relocating router client<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thomas: I Also made a comment about Appendix B in my previous =
review, which is referenced here. That comment still applies.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Moved into main draft.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">23. Neighbor Monitoring<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thomas: To Section 4.3, I noticed:<br class=3D"">Does section =
6.2 describe how to monitor an established adjacency only, or how to =
discover neighbouring AODVv2 routers? Looking in 6.2, I see<br =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CNot every pair of neighboring routers will =
necessarily form an adjacency,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 so it likely isn=E2=80=99=
t 6.2 that tells me how to maintain this table?<br class=3D"">In short, =
=E2=80=9CA neighbour table MUST be maintained=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 where =
can I find information on how to do this?<br class=3D"">Section 6.2 =
states:<br class=3D"">=E2=80=9CThe default approach for monitoring =
bidirectional connectivity to the next hop toward OrigAddr is to request =
acknowledgement of Route Reply messages.=E2=80=9D<br class=3D"">That =
certainly will tell me if a link over which an RREP is sent is =
bi-directional, but will not maintain a =E2=80=9Cneighbor table=E2=80=9D.<=
br class=3D"">So how is this done? Or, is the =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=
=9D not supposed to contain the complete set of neighbours? What =
information =E2=80=9C...MUST be maintained=E2=80=9D then, in this =
table?<br class=3D"">This is very unclear, I would not know how to =
implement a mechanism that populates this =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=9D=
 with the needed information here.<br class=3D"">I see no (relevant) =
changes to 6.2 nor to 4.3 so I assume that this comment has not been =
addressed<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: A new section was added =
to show how to update the neighbour table. There have also been updates =
to this entire section since version 12.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">24. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pseudo-code<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas:<br =
class=3D"">I am throwing this in here, as I am sure that I commented on =
that in the previous review, but I do not see that addressed: is =
Appendix C normative, or not? It represents =E2=80=9C a second =
specification of the protocol, in a different language=E2=80=9D from the =
main part of the specification. I have not walked through and made 200% =
sure that both are perfectly aligned and that there are no ambiguities, =
but having two different specifications of a protocol is a recipe for =
disaster.&nbsp; Please either make 2000% sure that they are specifying =
the same thing without ambiguities, or remove one.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: Removed - maybe to include in an informational =
document in future.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">25. =
seqnum as 16 bit unsigned integer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: =
To section 4.4, I wrote:<br class=3D"">"would like to nit-pick that: the =
router can maintain this sequence number in whatever format it pleases =
=E2=80=94 but, when it includes it in control messages, it must be =
representable in a specified format, respecting certain rules.=E2=80=9D<br=
 class=3D"">I see that there were no changes following this comment.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Why store it as anything other than =
what it needs to be when it goes into a message? However, we now state =
"MUST report its own sequence number as a 16 bit....whenever it creates =
a RREQ or RREP message".<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">26. =
multiple seqnums?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas:<br class=3D"">To =
section 4.4 I asked for clarification as to if sequence numbers were per =
interface or per router, as the specification was unclear on that. The =
words has changed, but it still is unclear: how many sequence numbers =
does a router maintain? One? One per interface?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: We tried to start discussion on that point, and in =
the meantime we reverted to having 1 seqnum per router. We think the =
text is clear... we refer to "the routers sequence number" or "its =
sequence number" - never hinting that there could be multiple seqnums =
per router (as far as I'm aware).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">27. sets/lists/tables<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas:<br =
class=3D"">In my previous review, I expressed that it would be =
preferential to use =E2=80=9Ca notation of Sets=E2=80=9D rather than =
tables. I see that this has not changed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">AODVv2: You preferred sets rather than lists in your previous =
review...and explained our reasoning for this in responses to the MANET =
list, and we did not receive further comments.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">28. use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas:<br class=3D"">I made a comment on node =
and address, let me pick this up again. The following:<br =
class=3D"">RteMsg.OrigAddr<br class=3D"">An IP address of the node which =
requires the route, i.e., the source address of the IP packet triggering =
the route request.<br class=3D"">would be more compact and clear if =
getting rid of the term =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D and said:<br =
class=3D"">RteMsg.OrigAddr<br class=3D"">The source address of the IP =
packet triggering the route request.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: =
Change made as suggested.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">29. route =
table/rib/routing set<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas: To section =
4.6, and I (and others) have commented on this before:<br class=3D"">All =
AODVv2 routers MUST maintain a route table.&nbsp; The route table entry =
is a conceptual data structure.&nbsp; Implementations MAY use any =
internal representation but MUST contain the following information:<br =
class=3D"">In order to avoid confusion, rename this to =E2=80=9CRouting =
Information Base=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CRouting Set=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a =
Routing Table is an operating system construct, whereon operations =
directly influence packet forwarding. What you are defining here is a =
RIB/an RS.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Done in version 13.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">30. rreq for prefix, use of =
=E2=80=9Cip address=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Caddress"<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thomas:<br class=3D"">The confusion that I pointed out in my =
previous review on =E2=80=9CIP address=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CAddress=E2=80=
=9D being used a bit haphazardly persists, fwiw. It makes me think, can =
a router send an RREQ for a prefix?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: =
See also #15. RREQ_Gen can include the prefix associated with OrigAddr =
by adding a prefix length to the message, the prefix length associated =
with the router client entry corresponding to OrigAddr. So all routers =
which receive it can learn a route to the prefix on which OrigAddr =
resides. But for TargAddr... the RREQ only has one target IP address - =
the destination IP address of the packet requiring the route... so what =
prefix length would it use? The RREQ requests a route to a single IP =
address. However, when the RREP is created, RREP_Gen should include the =
prefix length associated with the router client entry for TargAddr. So =
all routers which receive this RREP learn a route to the prefix TargAddr =
is part of (if the router client entry is configured with a prefix =
length). The text has been updated to make this more obvious.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">31. next hop ip address =
wording<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thomas:<br class=3D"">I also called =
this out in my previous review as incorrect, and despite wordsmithing it =
still is:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Route.NextHop<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The source IP address of the message advertising the =
route to<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Route.Address, i.e. an IP address of the AODVv2 router =
used for<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the next hop on the path toward Route.Address.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If that =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D is an =
RFC5444 entity, then it does to have a =E2=80=9Csource IP Address=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=94 the encapsulating IP datagram containing the packet =
containing the message does. And the message MAY have an Originator =
Address<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">AODVv2: Updated to say =E2=80=9Cthe =
source IP address of the IP packet containing the message =
advertising...=E2=80=9D<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div><p =
style=3D"margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, "Lotte Steenbrink" <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:38:35 +0000
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:48:30 +0000
To: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/YqIaMDJ_VDR_icB6dTlBVPte5-E>
Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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Sorry about that, I assume it was the picture, which I didn't think to remov=
e. But we've all got the picture now. (Actually my work firewall tried block=
ing it.)

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)

> On 16 Mar 2016, at 17:38, Ratliff, Stanley <sratliff@idirect.net> wrote:
>=20
> Lotte, Christopher,
> =20
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve had to approve the last two postings because the email size e=
xceeds the allowed max. Let=E2=80=99s please find a way to limit the email =E2=
=80=93 This is an important discussion, but I=E2=80=99d hate to have to appr=
ove each and every response.
> =20
> Please?
> =20
> Regards,
> Stan
> =20
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christo=
pher (UK)
> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 1:23 PM
> To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
> Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>; manet <manet@ietf.org=
>
> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
> =20
> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but that=E2=80=
=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).
> =20
> But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing algorithm, b=
eing discussed by the authors off-list, while in parallel assuring the list t=
hat =E2=80=9COther discussion about routing loops has not identified routing=
 loop problems in the existing specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain belo=
w).
> =20
> I think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to P=
roposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.
> =20
> (I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even write up comments on the perhaps o=
ne third of the draft I have read through yet.)
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> __________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow=
, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
>=20
> _____________________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>Sorry about that, I assume it was the p=
icture, which I didn't think to remove. But we've all got the picture now. (=
Actually my work firewall tried blocking it.)<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christoph=
er Dearlove</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">chri=
stopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mn=
emosyne.demon.co.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div><div>=
<br>On 16 Mar 2016, at 17:38, Ratliff, Stanley &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sratlif=
f@idirect.net">sratliff@idirect.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote t=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Lotte, Christopher,
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I=E2=80=99ve had to approve the last tw=
o postings because the email size exceeds the allowed max. Let=E2=80=99s ple=
ase find a way to limit the email =E2=80=93 This is an important discussion,=

 but I=E2=80=99d hate to have to approve each and every response. <o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Please?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Regards,<br>
Stan<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0=
in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=
Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bo=
unces@ietf.org">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 16, 2016 1:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Lotte Steenbrink &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin=
.de">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.n=
et">charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt;; manet &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet=
@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I haven=E2=80=99t follow=
ed the example (I hope to find time - but that=E2=80=99s true of too many th=
ings, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">But we have a loop, a pr=
etty fundamental problem in a routing algorithm, being discussed by the auth=
ors off-list, while in parallel assuring the
 list that =E2=80=9COther discussion about routing loops has not identified r=
outing loop problems in the existing specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chai=
n below).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">I think we have a real p=
roblem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to Proposed Standard soon, in t=
erms of process and confidence.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">(I still haven=E2=80=99t=
 managed to even write up comments on the perhaps one third of the draft I h=
ave read through yet.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#=
007E7E">--
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB=
" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#=
007E7E">Christopher Dearlove<br>
Senior Principal Engineer<br>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
</span></b><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#BEBEBE">___________________________________=
_______________________________________<br>
</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;A=
rial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#00007E"><br>
</span><b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#7D7D7D">T</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D=
"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#7D7D7D">: &=
nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesyste=
ms.com</a><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial=
&quot;,sans-serif;color:#00007E"><br>
</span><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial=
&quot;,sans-serif;color:#3A8B92">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsfor=
d Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span style=3D"color:#3A8B92">www.b=
aesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-fa=
mily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#3A8B92">BAE Systems Applied Intelli=
gence Limited<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" s=
tyle=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#3A8B=
92">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<br><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: #0=
03366;">_____________________________________________________<br>This electr=
onic message and any files transmitted with it contains<br>information from i=
Direct, which may be privileged, proprietary<br>and/or confidential. It is i=
ntended solely for the use of the individual<br>or entity to whom they are a=
ddressed. If you are not the original<br>recipient or the person responsible=
 for delivering the email to the<br>intended recipient, be advised that you h=
ave received this email<br>in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwar=
ding, printing, or<br>copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you r=
eceived this email<br>in error, please delete it and immediately notify the s=
ender.<br>_____________________________________________________</span>

</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: "Ratliff, Stanley" <sratliff@idirect.net>
To: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
Thread-Index: AQHRf6pdGpHN1K6d1Uu+Mgxd4Y45hZ9cVX7QgABGVQD//7/CoA==
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:59:09 +0000
Message-ID: <427de514598649ab826150980c96f884@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net>
References: <CAAePS4DCds3_vqJ8jwymmHWJdH4jXg=ksJ8RO4QqRFL77py7ng@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8A6F4A3D@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <56D4EB7D.4010002@earthlink.net> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D8C0227E6@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <944B9E01-74B7-45AD-ACB8-FA79347BC22E@fu-berlin.de> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D9237C4D5@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <462c1514b3c04e83a1b2565f6344626b@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <A3C07E0F-07A5-4790-AB7C-82D3CC7D6059@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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From: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Hello Chris,

I stand by my statement.  The cited paper did not identify a loop. Most 
importantly, the crucial part about route looping being prevented by 
sequence number still stands.  I also point out that the authors of that 
paper were constructive and complimentary to the clarity of the AODVv2 
specification.  I truly hope we can work together with them to further 
prove the correctness of the protocol.

Regarding the situation with unconfirmed routes, please not that 
unconfirmed routes can never be part of a routing loop because they 
don't carry data.

Regarding the off-list discussion, it is our online equivalent of a 
hallway discussion, and a manageable, constructive environment for us to 
produce responsive resolutions to the comments from you and others.  I 
hope we will see the rest of your comments soon because we want to 
resolve them as soon as possible.  We were honor-bound to not disclose 
private information to the list, but as you can see we also work hard to 
resolve privately submitted comments.

Regards,
Charlie P.


On 3/16/2016 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>
> I haven’t followed the example (I hope to find time - but that’s true 
> of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).
>
> But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing 
> algorithm, being discussed by the authors off-list, while in parallel 
> assuring the list that “Other discussion about routing loops has not 
> identified routing loop problems in the existing specification.” (see 
> email chain below).
>
> I think we have a real problem with what’s wanting to advance to 
> Proposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.
>
> (I still haven’t managed to even write up comments on the perhaps one 
> third of the draft I have read through yet.)
>
> *-- *
>
> *Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> **__________________________________________________________________________
> *
> *T*:  +44 (0)1245 242194  | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com 
> <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great 
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>
> *From:*Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de]
> *Sent:* 16 March 2016 17:13
> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> *Cc:* Charlie Perkins; manet
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>
> **** WARNING ****
>
> /This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an 
> external partner or the internet.//
> /Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any 
> attachments or reply./
> /For information regarding //*/Red Flags/*/that you can look out for 
> in emails you receive, click here 
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf>.//
> /If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process 
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.//
>
> Hi Christopher,
>
>     Am 02.03.2016 um 11:36 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>     <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>     <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
>
>     My concerns have been that your co-authors have continued to
>     discuss whether looping could occur since you published to the
>     list saying all was well. (An issue to do with multiple
>     unconfirmed routes.) Maybe that’s a problem, maybe it isn’t. But
>     it lacks transparency, because it hasn’t been discussed here.
>
> The loop possibility you’re referring to was a different one than the 
> one discussed by Charlie. We’ve been contacted by researchers who are 
> model checking MANET protocols to see if they permit any unwanted 
> behaviour. They’ve used AODVv2 as a case study for the framework 
> they’ve implemented to do this, and they’ve found the following loop:
>
> 1. n2 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination n3 by 
> broadcasting a “rreq” message.
>
> 2. n1 and n4 upon receiving the “rreq” message, add a route to their 
> routing tables towards n2 and store n2 as their next hop. Since it is 
> the first time that these nodes have received a message from n2, the 
> neighbor state of n2 is set to unconfirmed. Therefore, the route state 
> is unconfirmed.
>
> 3. As n1 and n4 are not the intended destination of the route request, 
> they rebroadcast the “rreq” message.
>
> 4. n1 receives the “rreq” message sent by n4 and since the route to n2 
> is unconfirmed it adds n4 as new next hop to n2.
>
> 5. n4 also adds n1 as the new next hop towards n2 after processing the 
> “rreq” sent by node1. At this point a loop is formed between n1 and n4 
> but not used yet.
>
> 6. n3 receives the “rreq” message sent by n1 and since it is the 
> destination, it sends a “rrep” message towards n1.
>
> 7. n2 moves out of n1 and n4 communication range.
>
> 8. n1 receives the “rrep” message sent by n3 and as the route state 
> towards n2 is unconfirmed it multicasts the “rrep” message to the 
> existing next hops, n2 and n4. Since n4 is adjacent to n1, it receives 
> the message and then sends an ack to n1. Therefore, n1 sets the 
> neighbor state of n4 to confirm and subsequently the route state 
> towards n2 to valid. Then expunge the next hop n2 which has not 
> received an ack from.
>
> 9. n4 by receiving the “rrep” message from n1 multicasts it to its 
> next hops towards n1 and n2,
> and similar to n1 it updates its routing table by validating n1 as its 
> next hop to n2. At this point, a loop between n1 and n4 becomes valid.
>
> In response to these findings, we've changed 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route 
> Information in -13, so that LoopFree() is *always* considered before 
> adding a new route, even if all known routes to date are Unconfirmed.
>
> Following up, they’ve found another loop in -13:
>
>  1. At first nodes are connected to each other as shown in Fig1.a.
>  2. n0 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination n3 by
>     multicasting a “rreq” message to n2 with sq=2.
>  3. n2 after updating its routing table, multicast the “rreq” to its
>     neighbors, n1 and n3.
>  4. n1 upon receiving the “rreq” message sent by n2 updates its
>     routing table and adds a route with hop-count=2, sq=2 and next-hope=2
>  5. Consider that topology changes at this point and n1 moves into
>     communication range of n0, gets connected to n0, and n2 leaves n0
>     communication range, gets disconnected from n0, which leads to
>     network topology shown in Fig1.b.
>  6. n0, which hasn’t received an “rrep” yet, resend the “rreq” message
>     after increasing its sequence number to 3.
>  7. n1 receives the new “rreq” message, with sq=3, next-hop=0 and
>     hop-count=1, since it’s a better route it would be added to the
>     routing table. Then n1 multicast the “rreq” message to its
>     neighbors, n2 and n3.
>  8. n2 evaluate the received message sent by n1 and adds a new route
>     to its routing table with sq=3, next-hop=1 and hop-count=2 since
>     the sequence number of the received message is greater than the
>     stored one.
>
> At this point a loop has been formed between nodes n1 and n2.
>
> Since we’ve moved to disallowing multiple Unconfirmed routes (in -14, 
> which isn’t published yet), this one is resolved already as well.
>
> The reason we didn’t discuss this earlier on [manet] was that the 
> authors hadn’t submitted their paper yet (and I didn’t want to leak 
> their work). They’ve done so now, and will send us a link to their 
> paper once it’s available. I’m guessing it’ll take a while to be 
> published properly, but it should be enough for for our purposes for 
> the paper to appear on arxiv.org <http://arxiv.org> for now…
>
> Best regards,
>
> Lotte
>
>
>
> *--*
>
> *Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> **__________________________________________________________________________
> *
> *T*:  +44 (0)1245 242194  | *E:*chris.dearlove@baesystems.com 
> <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great 
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>
> *From:*Charlie Perkins [mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net]
> *Sent:*01 March 2016 01:08
> *To:*Dearlove, Christopher (UK); manet
> *Subject:*Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>
> **** WARNING ****
>
> /This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an 
> external partner or the internet.//
> /Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any 
> attachments or reply./
> /For information regarding//*/Red Flags/*///that you can look out for 
> in emails you receive, click////here 
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf>.//
> /If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow//this process 
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.//
>
> Hello Chris,
>
> On 1/19/2016 5:37 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>
>     And outside those 31, that we’re at this position with a
>     suggestion there’s possible looping (about which I have no idea)
>     isn’t that comforting.
>
>
> I hope your concerns have been resolved on this matter. The paper 
> mentioned on the mailing list pointed out various ambiguities in RFC 
> 3561 described how the ambiguities might be construed to install 
> self-routes and, combined with possible inconsistent choices for 
> sequence number, loops could result.  But the email to the list 
> several weeks ago indicated that these ambiguities do not exist in 
> AODVv2.  The authors of that paper have expressed interest in doing a 
> similar analysis on AODVv2.
>
> Other discussion about routing loops has not identified routing loop 
> problems in the existing specification. Use of unconfirmed or invalid 
> routes for routing might lead to errors, but that doesn't carry over 
> to produce loops in the route table.
>
> I'm looking for any other open issues outside of the Security 
> Considerations which is being reworked according to recent comments 
> but should be submitted soon.
>
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>
>
>
>
> There’s also a lot of document to review. Which of course I haven’t 
> done at this time. But my attention did alight on the IANA 
> considerations section, and I noted there that:
>
> - Not sure why the jump to 10 for message types, though I’m not opposed.
>
> - The PATH_METRIC TLV can’t be type 10, that’s already taken. See IANA 
> register.
>
> - We previously pointed out that CONT_SEQ_NUM (COMPLETE) already 
> exists and does the job that SEQ_NUM is doing, so why allocate another 
> TLV? (You could avoid the necessity of repeating (COMPLETE) by simply 
> commenting once and thereafter omitting.)
>
> - Why the suggested skipping of types 12 to 14?
>
> *--*
>
> *Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> __________________________________________________________________________
> *
> *T*:  +44 (0)1245 242194  | *E:*chris.dearlove@baesystems.com 
> <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great 
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>
> *From:*manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org]*On Behalf Of*Victoria 
> Mercieca
> *Sent:*18 January 2016 21:45
> *To:*manet
> *Subject:*[manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>
> **** WARNING ****
>
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>
> Hi all,
>
> We have just released the newest AODVv2 draft. The major update is the 
> separation of the AODVv2 route set from the RIB.
>
> Here are also responses to the comments received before Christmas. 
> This should include all the points from Thomas Clausen regarding 
> versions 11 and 12, and also a couple of other points which have been 
> brought up since. Apologies for the huge email. For issues that need 
> further discussion, I have tried to include the main points of the 
> discussion so far. Please feel free to create a separate thread for 
> any further discussion.
>
> We are still looking into the loop conditions recently reported for 
> AODV, also still working on the text about security, and use of 
> msg-hop-limit.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Victoria.
>
>
> 1. End-to-end / hop-by-hop acks - issue when a route is marked as 
> confirmed and valid when the link to the next hop is confirmed as 
> bidirectional (but the links downstream have not yet been verified as 
> bidirectional).
>
> AODVv2: The authors believe this is an issue which would not occur 
> frequently, and would right itself.
>
> This only occurs for the route to OrigAddr. What needs to happen for 
> this to occur is that an intermediate node that takes part in the 
> route discovery between OrigAddr and TargAddr coincidentally has 
> packets to send to OrigAddr in the time between confirming the link to 
> its own next hop toward OrigAddr is bidirectional, and the time taken 
> for all other routers on the path to confirm their next hops too. If 
> the route is used to forward packets before every other link in the 
> path is confirmed as bidirectional, and the data packets are forwarded 
> faster than the RREP and any RREP_Acks, then yes they could be 
> delivered to a router without a valid route to OrigAddr. Alternatively 
> if one of the links turns out to be unidirectional then the data 
> packets will also arrive at a router without a valid route. In these 
> cases, RERR messages will be generated toward the source of the 
> traffic, the route to OrigAddr will be deleted at routers back toward 
> TargAddr, but if data packets are still flowing from any source to 
> OrigAddr, the route will be re-requested by the router responsible for 
> discovering routes for the source of the data.
>
> The changes required to make acknowledgements end-to-end would require 
> a lot more control traffic and be necessary for every route discovery 
> and in almost all cases would be unnecessary.
>
> Text has been added to the draft in “Local Route State Changes” to 
> describe this.
>
> 2. Buffering
> ﻿Thomas:
> “It would seem that buffering, as specified, does not accomplish what
> it states that it accomplishes: packets are (as you describe) still being
> sent while no route is available, and therefore will be dropped later.
> => Consequently, it seems that buffering is a futile exercise?”
>
> AODVv2: ﻿Packets are buffered before a route exists. A router only 
> begins sending them when it deems the route to be valid. In general, 
> buffering is not futile.
>
> True, there is this case outlined above where the router could deem 
> the route valid before the bidirectionality check has happened for 
> each and every hop. If the links chosen for the route are not all 
> bidirectional, then yes, any data packets forwarded along this route 
> will end up being dropped at some point on that path.
> This case is caused by the RREP_Ack being hop-by-hop, and not caused 
> by buffering.
>
> Thomas: ﻿
> “Buffers have huge impacts on TCP performance, and I doubt if the 
> issues on e.g. TCP are well enough understood by this WG (Bufferbloat 
> was an example of where people got it wrong, despite having extensive 
> experience).”
>
> AODVv2: Packets will only be buffered while a route is requested. The 
> TCP packets buffered will be packets for session initialisation. The 
> authors believe that buffering these will have a positive effect. Some 
> references have been suggested, listed here, the first of which has 
> been included in the draft:
> http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodli.pdf
> Mobile Internetworking with IPv6: Concepts, Principles and Practices 
> {Koodli, Perkins}
> disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt 
> <http://disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt>
> Analysis of TCP performance over mobile ad hoc 
> networkshttp://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=313540
> Alternatively, we could remove the mention of TCP, and instead state 
> that buffering MAY be used for packets awaiting a route, but that 
> implementation and implications of this are out of scope for AODVv2.
>
>
> 3. Use of msg-hop-limit and msg-hop-count:
> Thomas:
> But, either way, as according to your model messages are never 
> forwarded, but always are intended for receipt by a router which is a 
> direct neighbor, then a <msg-hop-limit> >1 (which applies to the 
> message) seems inappropriate.
> Actually, according to that model, I would even say that receipt of a 
> message with a <msg-hop-count> >1 should be interpreted as a malfunction.
> As you refer to RFC5444 appendix B, do note that Appendix B of RFC5444 
> (and, note the errata 4003) talks about:
>       <msg-hop-limit> field, if present, contains the number of hops 
> on which the message is allowed to travel before being discarded by a 
> MANET router.  The <msg-hop-limit> is set by the message originator 
> and is used to prevent messages from endlessly circulating in a MANET.
> Specifically “set by the message originator” and “number of hops on 
> which the message is allowed to travel” — with your control messages 
> traveling just one hop, I believe that setting <msg-hop-limit> = 1 is 
> correct.
>
> AODVv2: Discussion is still needed here. We wonder if these fields are 
> necessary at all for AODVv2. We were using them to limit the number of 
> regenerations of a RREQ. However, the hop limit value needs to be 
> large enough to allow a RREQ from one side of the network to another. 
> It might be the case that using the hop limit, almost every router in 
> the network would receive that RREQ anyway, and by using the 
> redundancy check, we already stop RREQs from circulating endlessly.
>
> 4. Abstract
> Thomas:
> “I made the following comment, which still applies:
> “This is a little over-stating the applicability: these statements may 
> be true in some scenarios (for example, when there are few concurrent 
> traffic flows, and therefore few routes to repair, and therefore few 
> flooding operations to contend for channel access). As a general 
> statement, this last sentence is incorrect””
>
> AODVv2: The text has been removed and the abstract now states: “ The 
> Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing protocol 
> is intended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop networks.  
> AODVv2 determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within the 
> network in an on-demand fashion.”
>
> 5,9,12,13,20. Router Client
> Thomas:
> “I made a comment previously that “Router client” is a poorly chosen 
> term, and have proposed alternatives. I’ve seen some attempts on the 
> list at rather than change the term, explain it — some of which is in 
> this document. The “Overview” still talks about “a router…one of its 
> clients” - which is no less confusing than last time Iw went through it.
> I reiterate, why not use “Local Attached Network Set”, which is the 
> term used by other documents from this WG?”
>
> AODVv2: We already answered this suggestion on the MANET list and 
> asked for comments and suggestions, and no responses were received. We 
> have defined what we mean by Router Client, and the terminology has so 
> far not changed. However, some alternatives have been suggested, so if 
> you feel any of these are more effective, please let us know:
> ﻿•    Advertised IP Address: puts the emphasis on advertisement rather 
> than topological connection
> •    Accessible IP Address: puts the emphasis on accessibility through 
> the particular router – not bad
> •    Reduced Function Device [RFD]: doesn’t roll off the tongue, but 
> this is terminology used for L2R in IEEE 802 Wireless for a similar 
> situation
> •    Accessible Device Address: adds some emphasis for the device as 
> well as the address
> ﻿•    Stably Connected IP Address: nothing is permanent, of course, 
> but the router client set is thought to be relatively stable
> •    Topologically Connected IP address: ... suggests that a 
> "topological connection" is stable compared to wireless
> •    Administratively Assigned IP address: ... somehow does not 
> connote the "otherness" of the router client devices.
>
> 6. Overview - adjacency
> Thomas:
> The term “confirming adjacency” is gone, and is now replaced by 
> “confirming bidirectionality” - which, alas, still sounds like there 
> is some active monitoring (HELLO message exchange) going on. Unless 
> that is the case, then please be more specific here.
> I note that the term adjacency is used through and through the 
> document, btw.
>
> AODVv2: The text has been updated to avoid the word adjacency. We do 
> not believe the text implies active monitoring through HELLO messages.
>
> 7. Overview - forwarding plane
> Thomas: I suggested in my last review: The overview must also include 
> a paragraph on the intersections between this protocol and the 
> forwarding plane — this, as it is different (and more invasive) from 
> that which is typically seen in routing protocols.
> Specifically, as a reactive protocol, it is required (at least) that 
> the forwarding plane is modified :
> 1) A “miss” when looking up a next hop for a data packet to be 
> forwarded, is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to permit that 
> route discovery be launched;
> 2) A “miss” when attempting to deliver a data packet to a next hop, 
> which was recorded in the routing table, is signalled to the AODVv2 
> process so as to permit that a route repair be initiated and/or a 
> Route Error be generated.
> 3) A “hit” when looking up a next hop for a data packet to be 
> forwarded to a destination is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to 
> permit maintenance of “active route” Route State, timers and such.
> Note that these things are necessary to call out in the “overview” and 
> in the “applicability statement”, both: it is not that they are 
> negatives per se, but that they are important factors governing the 
> applicability of this protocol: will a given platform permit such 
> access to the forwarding plane, for example? Important to understand 
> if for that platform this protocol is apple
> I see that this was not addressed in the overview, nor in the 
> applicability other than by a forward reference to section 6.4. While 
> it is positive that there is a section 6.4, this does not exonerate 
> the overview and the applicability statement for being honest about 
> the requirements (notably to the platform/os) that this protocol has 
> for being applicable
>
> AODVv2: The Overview and the Applicability Statement now refer to 
> these basic requirements for the interaction with the forwarding 
> plane. The Applicability Statement also contains the reference to the 
> later section which describes this in more detail.
>
> 8. 7182 and security
>
> Thomas: I suggested in my last review: It is important to do more than 
> this: 7182 does only provide “containers” for ICVs and timestamps, and 
> does not specify how to use them to obtain specific security 
> properties. RFC7182 may be a tool that can be used, but how* that tool 
> is used is what determines the security properties.
> Therefore, saying that “security is dealt with by using RFC7182” is 
> either an incomplete statement, or is indicative of insufficient 
> security considerations.”
> The actual sentence in the I-D has been changed, now it explicitly 
> names the two TLVs from 7182 that it uses. That is, alas, still not 
> sufficient.
> Making the aside that was discussed recently on the list, that (i) 
> control messages are not forwarded, and that (ii) they are modified in 
> transit, the security/trust model is somewhat different from that of 
> 7181 and consequently for what 7182 was initially written for. I think 
> that  calling out the trust model, and how 7182 actually is used here, 
> might be what is called for.
> Continuing with the aside, this *especially* as the applicability 
> statement says: "Providing security for a reactive routing protocol 
> can be difficult”
>
> Thomas:
> ﻿OK, so assume that I understand regeneration as per my previous 
> email, as meaning “generate a new message and send to my neighbors, 
> based on what I learned when processing a received message” — just 
> like any distance vector protocol does.
> In that model, what you write makes sense: each originator of a 
> control message (i.e., whoever generates or regenerates it) is free to 
> include the information it desires, such as the 4 points you list 
> above. No issues with that.
> However, and this joins what I pointed out in a previous email, you 
> write in the applicability statement: "Providing security for a 
> reactive routing protocol can be difficult."
> While we can discuss if the nature of “reactive routing protocol” 
> generates particular difficulties, we certainly can agree that this 
> protocol has the same “difficulties” as a distance vector protocol: 
> routing topology information (by definition) not being exchanged 
> end-to-end, but between neighbors (who do calculations and generate 
> their own announcements — regeneration, as you call it).
> This means that a specific security model of transitive trust must be 
> assumed, no? I trust Victoria, therefore when Victoria says “Stan told 
> me” then I trust that she actually verified that "it was indeed Stan 
> who told her …” — and either way, I have no way of verifying?
> I did not see the trust model / trust assumption discussed in the 
> specification (specifically not in applicability and in section 13, 
> both of where it should be called out), but I think that this is 
> actually a crucial point to get right, in order to approach developing 
> the MTI security mechanisms.
> Anyways, that observation actually contrasts strongly with what the 
> applicability statement then goes on to say, namely:
>    AODVv2 provides for message integrity and security against replay
>    attacks by using integrity check values, timestamps and sequence
>    numbers, as described in Section 13.
> This is true only in as much as messages are indeed exchanged between 
> neighbors: when you “regenerate” a message, i.e., generate a 
> new message in response to receipt of a message, you generate brand 
> new payload (but possibly including some of the data from the received 
> message, of course): thus, any ICVs “from farther away than the 
> neighbor” will be useless (or, if you zero out the parts that you 
> change, these parts will not be protected).
> The above sentence, quoted from the applicability statement, and that 
> which transpires from section 13, seems - certainly, absent the trust 
> model assumed - to suggest that end-to-end protection/validation is 
> provided. But, this is not the case.
> Finally to the applicability statement, a question:
> If security associations can be established, encryption can be used 
> for AODVv2 messages to ensure that only trusted routers participate in 
> routing operations.
> What you want to say here is that “if all trusted routers have a 
> shared secret, then we’re able to use that shared secret to ignore 
> non-trusted routers”, right?
> While “security associations” that do not pass through a shared secret 
> probably can be thought up, it’s not trivial and I did not find any 
> discussion of that in the document?
> Having, on the topic of security, re-read Section 13, which starts:
>    This section describes various security considerations and potential
>    avenues to secure AODVv2 routing.
> While this is an honest description of what follows, I remain 
> convinced that this is not sufficient. So let me ask as precisely as I 
> can:
> o what is the MTI security mechanism that a conformant implementation 
> must provide? Specifically: - which are the processing steps (for 
> example in section 7.2.1 and section 7.2.2 for RREP - and similarly 
> for the other message types) that define that security mechanism
> o what protection is offered by that MTI security mechanism? And what 
> remains vulnerable.
> If this specification targets std.track, then it should include 
> (reasonably solid, but definitely well specified) MTI security.
>
> Chris Dearlove:
> ﻿There are two potential choices:
>
> - RREQ has an integrity check value to indicate that someone trusted 
> created it, if not necessarily the destination. That someone might be 
> identifiable or not.
> - RREQ has a signature that indicates that the destination created it.
>
> Unfortunately, an RREQ that changes as it is forwarded (aggregating 
> data of any sort) makes the second option tricky, unless there’s some 
> sort of aggregating signature as it is forwarded. But I’m not an 
> expert on the latter.
>
> The most trivial case of the former is simply that everyone trusted 
> has a single shared key. That has obvious issues – although it was 
> good enough that embodied as RFC 7183 we could get 7181 through the 
> system (as a “must implement, do not need to use” minimal case). 
> Alternatively something identity-based (e.g. draft-ietf-manet-ibs) 
> could be used, so you know who created the message you received, but 
> you are relying on a chain of trust, hop by hop. At which point you 
> might as well just sign packets (see RFC 7182).
>
> But in even the weakest case (the single shared key used hop by hop) 
> there has to be a failure for things to go wrong - either loss of key 
> (in which case all bets are off) or suborning one router (who can do 
> quite a lot of damage).
>
> I haven't read the latest AODVv2 draft yet, but this sort of thing 
> should be described in its security considerations - the previous 
> draft though didn't discuss this as far as I recall.
>
> Chris Dearlove:
> ﻿If you go down this route of assuming transitive trust, then you 
> might as well use 7182’s packet ICV and timestamp rather than message 
> ICV and timestamp.
>
> There is a complication (mostly one of presentation) that the 5444 
> multiplexer (rather than AODVv2) needs to do this, at least for 
> packets containing AODVv2 messages (but at which point, probably all 
> 5444 packets). So you either, depending on your point of view, need to 
> request it to do that, or (administratively) decline to operate except 
> over a 5444 multiplexer that is doing this.
>
> The advantage is one of saved space and time when packets contain more 
> than one message. Plus slightly better protection (hop count and limit 
> are covered) but which probably doesn’t matter here.
>
> If messages are changed/replaced on a one-to-one basis as forwarded, 
> then the only solutions I can see are hop by hop transitive trust 
> (packets or messages per hop), or something complicated involving 
> aggregation and knowledge of changes. But the latter would be a 
> research task to develop, so let’s not try that.
>
> Jiazi Yi:
> I﻿ agree with Chris and Thomas on their concerns on the hop-by-hop 
> security issue.
> This is very different from classical DV protocol, in which the vector 
> information is designed to be exchanged between neighbours.
> In AODVv2, the RREQ/RREP/RERR are to be forwarded through multiple 
> hops. A router can sign a message that isn't actually initialised by 
> itself -- this is, at least, against intuition.
> This can be an issue if we have compromised routers in the network. Of 
> course, a compromised router is a problem for every protocol, like 
> OLSRv2. But in OLSRv2, a compromised router can only speak on behalf 
> of itself -- however, in AODVv2, a compromised/mis-configured router 
> can pretend to be any other router (for example, generate RREQ 
> messages using another address as OrigAddr).  The consequence will be 
> much more serious if that happens.
>
> AODVv2: This is not yet addressed.
>
> 9. Terminology - host, routers, router clients:
>
> Thomas: My last review suggested:
> “This has been brought up on the list several times in the past, 
> without having been addressed.
> There are “hosts” and there are “routers” — whose roles are well 
> defined. Node” not so much — which is clear from looking at the 
> definition here: “either AODVv2 routers or router clients” (with 
> “router clients” being defined as “an AODVv2 router is also its own 
> router client”).
>
> This is very much related to the use of “Router Client”, and both that 
> term, and “node” indicative that some clarity is needed here.
>
> All a router cares about is “an address”. If that address is of a 
> network, or a router, or an interface (and, if said interface is 
> installed in a router or a host) doesn’t matter.
>
> So, “an address” is something that the routing protocol should care 
> about finding paths to. Which means that each address that should be 
> made reachable by the routing protocol should be advertised by (at 
> least) one router in the network.
>
> One way of doing that would be to simply talk about “Attached 
> Networks” as is done in RFC7181, wherein an address included in the 
> “Attached Network Set” is advertised by an OLSRv2 router....in this 
> case, the equivalent would be “for each address in the Attached 
> Network Set of an AODVv2 router the router MUST respond 
> authoritatively to a RREQ, and MUST maintain the corresponding 
> sequence number”.
> The text, as it currently is, is really hard to read, and a re-edit 
> along these lines would go a long way.”
>
> I note that the terms “Node” and “Router Client” are still used, in 
> their original form, and that other than some slight wordsmithing this 
> comment has not been addressed in the document.
>
> I reiterate that the need to use router, host, node, and router client 
> in and by itself should be an indicator that tightening up of 
> terminology is required.
>
> AODVv2: See 5. The use of “node” has been addressed.
>
> 10. Terminology and elsewhere - address
> Thomas: I made the following comment to Routable Unicast IP Address:
> “Are there any technical reason why not simply *any* address could be 
> considered by the routing protocol?
> My understanding, but correct me if I am wrong, is that all that is 
> required is that all interfaces in a given AODVv2 routing domain has 
> an unique address.
> That some of these addresses (by an IP addressing architecture 
> document) has special semantics associated (such as are link locals, 
> or are for private use, or are for example use only, or are for 
> multicast) is out of scope here?
> I see nothing has changed on the above, so let me be more explicit: 
> the routing protocol itself probably) should not care about what kind 
> of addresses are filled into it. Is an 192.16./16 address appropriate? 
> Not across the internet, but it may be in somebody’s private 
> deployments. Should the routing protocol be “address police” and is 
> implementation of a “I refuse to route these addresses…” a requirement 
> for claiming conformance? Suggest simply stating what the requirements 
> are under which the routing protocol will work — and leave “address 
> assignment politics” aside.
>
> AODVv2: We ask for clarification on this issue. We use the phrase 
> “routable and unicast” in the draft with respect to OrigAddr and 
> TargAddr. We dont mean to exclude addresses from the private address 
> ranges. But we dont want to request routes for multicast, 
> indeterminate, link-local, or loopback addresses. This is not about 
> router interface addresses which are used for AODVv2.
>
> 11. Multiple interfaces with the same IP address, 6621 implications
>
> Thomas: I also continued:
> Now, with that being said also, the WG wanted that RFC7181 supports 
> not just multiple interfaces, but also the same address used on 
> multiple interfaces of the same router. There were good reasons for 
> that, and while it was not trivial to implement, it turned out to be 
> the right thing to support. If there are technical reasons why this is 
> not supported in AODVv2 (for example, if this cannot be made work 
> because of <reason>) then that should be called out in the 
> applicability statement also?
> Conversely, if it is possible in AODVv2, then I do not believe that it 
> is clearly specified how (at least, in the “naive” on paper examples I 
> drew up, something ended up not working). So either the protocol as-is 
> does not support it (but could be made to?) or it is supported (but 
> just need to be spelled out), or is not possible (and need to be 
> disclaimed in the applicability statement).
> Stan Ratliff was a driving force in holding the WG’s collective feet 
> to the fire in getting this support included in RFC7181, and would 
> likely be the right person to consult on this matter?
> I actually have not seen changes, or comments, on this. In OLSRv2, the 
> WG was making it a strong requirement that it should be possible to 
> use the same IP address on different interfaces of a router. It was 
> somewhat tedious to design around, but it was worked out, and the 
> conditions under which that was possible were defined and documented.
> I would like to see the same done for this protocol.
> I also note that this is not unrelated to RFC6621-discussions. For 
> example, when selecting S-MPRs on a multi-interface and 
> multi-address-per-interface router, care must be taken least things 
> won’t work. So, if (and this links back to previous mails) RFC6621 is 
> a requirement or desire for this protocol, then there are some 
> considerations required here.
>
> AODVv2: We have removed references to RFC 6621.
> Initial thoughts on this topic of multiple interfaces using the same 
> IP address, is that this wouldn’t cause a problem, if the router has 
> only one sequence number. However, this is up for further discussion.
>
> 12. Interfaces configured as router clients
>
> Thomas: I see that the definition of “Router Client” has changed to be
> “An address or address range…the AODVv2 router’s interface addresses 
> are also configured as router clients”
> Better than before, but still missing the target. The term “Router 
> Client” is, as I indicated numerous times before, odd.
> But the second part of the sentence, does that mean (what it says) 
> that the interfaces must be configured specially, so as to be able to 
> be “router clients”? That can’t be true.
> What you likely mean is:
> An AODVv2 router is configured so as to consider its own interfaces as 
> part of the locally attached network set” ?
> You configure the router, right? No special “interface configuration 
> properties” are required for an interface to be announcable by  an 
> AODVv2 router? (And, getting rid of node would actually make the 
> definition shorter and nicer)
>
> AODVv2: The wording we use says: "The IP Addresses of the router's 
> interfaces will appear in the Router Client Table." and in the 
> Terminology: "The AODVv2 router's interface addresses are also 
> configured as Router Clients." Both statements say that ‘interface 
> addresses are configured as router clients’ ...we are not sure why 
> this is misunderstood. We have a router client list, and the AODVv2 
> router’s interface addresses are included in this list. The interface 
> itself doesn’t have special “interface configuration properties”.
>
> 13 - more on router clients
> Thomas: Now, snipping out from the applicability statement:
> "Multi-homing of an IP address is not supported by AODVv2, and 
> therefore a Router Client, i.e. an IP Address,  … "
> …evidence to there being some redundant terminology here to weed away.
>
> AODVv2: That was there as a reminder that a router client is based on 
> IP address, even though the device with that IP address may have other 
> IP addresses too. It’s the IP address that is the router client, not 
> the device as a whole with its entire collection of configured IP 
> addresses. One IP address of that device might be configured as a 
> router client on one router, and a different IP address of that device 
> could be configured as a router client on another router. The IP 
> addresses would seem to AODVv2 to be on different devices.
>
>
> 14. data elements
>
> Thomas: The below is a little bit of a meta-comment, I am not quite 
> sure what I think here. The definitions for Target Node and such were 
> confusing before. They still are, somewhat.
> I think that it may be because the definitions now used are simply 
> copy-pasted out from the tables in the previous version, for example:
>    “An AODVv2 Data Element containing the destination address of the 
> IP packet triggering route discovery.”
> OK, I can trace back and see that a Data Element is something that 
> exists inside a protocol message. To me, however, that’s not really 
> general terminology as such, but part of the specification of a packet 
> format - or rather, it is the notation that you use when describing an 
> algorithm. By the way, why are some notations in CamelCase whereas 
> others have a space in them, e.g. “Target Node” and “TargMetric”, both 
> of which are Data Elements? Would be good with a consistent approach here.
> I *think* that it would be better to take all those “Data Element” 
> bits and move to a separate section (or subsection) to the 
> terminology, and then keep all the “other stuff” (Neighbor, …) in its 
> own section.
>
> AODVv2: Your comment from draft 11 where we already had data elements 
> in a separate table, says:
> "Also suggest abolishing this table and folding the definitions in 
> with the other definitions in the terminology section."
> We have updated to not refer so heavily to the term Data Element. All 
> the terms are described in the Terminology section. Those in CamelCase 
> are used as message fields.
>
>
> 15. Route “to a specific address”
> Thomas:
> I made a comment: Second, should “valid route” not be qualified by “to 
> a specific address”?”
> Which was not addressed.
>
> AODVv2: Every route is to a specific address...the address is 
> specified by Route.Address and Route.PrefixLength.
> Do you mean that routes are to the address TargAddr or OrigAddr and 
> therefore to a specific host address rather than to a network prefix? 
> This is not the case. Prefix Length is included in AODVv2 messages so 
> that the route learned from the message represents the prefix which 
> OrigAddr or TargAddr resides on (if the router client entry 
> corresponding to OrigAddr at RREQ_Gen or TargAddr at RREP_Gen is 
> configured with a prefix length). e.g. OrigAddr is 10.0.0.1 but the 
> corresponding router client entry at RREQ_Gen could be10.0.0.0/8 
> <http://10.0.0.0/8>. So when constructing the RREQ you include a 
> prefix length of 8, and when receiving the RREQ and learning the route 
> to OrigAddr, you can install a route to10.0.0.0/8 <http://10.0.0.0/8>. 
> Text has been updated to make this more obvious.
>
> 16. unreachable address
>
> Thomas: I also made a comment on "Unreachable Address” - I am glad I 
> did, because I apparently had a different understanding than what was 
> intended. I now see that an Unreachable Address by definition is an 
> address listed in a RERR message, and not the same as an address to 
> which no route has yet been discovered? If yes, then please use a 
> different term, such as FormerlyReachableAddress” or something of the 
> sort?
>
> AODVv2: "Formerly reachable" is inaccurate... we send a RERR if 
> another router forwards a packet via us, and we dont have a route, not 
> just when we lose a route. We might never have had a route, or might 
> never have had a valid route, so the address may not have been 
> "formerly reachable". Also, I think "FormerlyReachableAddress" is a 
> really ugly term. Unreachable means "we don’t have a route and we 
> aren’t going to request one" or "we lost this route" (depending on why 
> the RERR is being sent). It doesn’t mean "we didn’t request one yet", 
> and it would be wrong to class an address as unreachable because we 
> hadn’t requested a route for it yet, that is, assuming it’s configured 
> as a router client.
>
> If a better term is suggested we could consider changing but at the 
> moment we have kept “Unreachable Address”.
>
>
> 17. Applicability - multiple interfaces same address, 6621 again
>
> Thomas: Applicability statement: First, I would like to recognize the 
> efforts made to improve this since last review. Thanks
> Second, the document states: "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple 
> interfaces, as long as each interface configured for AODVv2 has a 
> unicast IP address.  A router may use the same IP address on multiple 
> interfaces.  Address assignment procedures are out of scope for AODVv2.”
> Is that true? Granted, I have not worked this through in detail, but I 
> can present a counter-example: the use of RFC6621 means that there 
> certainly are some constraints that must be respected least various 
> flooding optimizations may not work.
> Secondly, if the multiple-interfaces-with-same-address are on the same 
> L2, and this is what I have not worked through, are there any 
> situations that will not work?
> The immediately previous version of this specification read:
> "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple interfaces, as long as each 
> interface configured for AODVv2 has its own unicast routable IP address"
> So what changed that means that each interface no longer needs its 
> *own* unicast address?
>
> AODVv2: Well, based on previous questions on this, we talked it 
> through and decided there shouldn’t be an issue if different 
> interfaces of a router used the same IP address. Note that we changed 
> AODVv2 so that there is one sequence number per router. No longer can 
> a router use different sequence numbers on different interfaces. If an 
> RREQ went out of two interfaces using the same address, we worked it 
> through and decided the request would be processed correctly.
> Also, text referring to RFC 6621 has been removed.
>
> 18. Applicability and appendix - multihoming
>
> Thomas: I pointed out to the Applicability Statement:
> I think that appendix B needs to be removed. Essentially, it makes 
> claims that it is possible to do multi-homing — but neither specifies 
> how it is done, nor gives pointers to documents that justify the claim.
> AODVv2 does not support multi-homing — that’s clear, and it is fine 
> that it is called out here. Thank you for that.
> Now, with that being said, I am torn between being satisfied that it 
> is called out on one hand, and wanting to have “multi homing” on the 
> other hand. RFC7181 supports multi-homing, FWIW.
> I believe that this also would merit some explicit discussion by the 
> WG, in order to understand if this design decision is acceptable?
> I see that Appendix B still is in the document, and I do not recall 
> having seen this discussed on the mailing list. Simply removing the 
> reference from the Applicability Statement to Appendix B does not 
> address the issue that I raised in my previous review.
>
> AODVv2: Appendix has been removed and may appear in a future 
> informational document.
>
> 19. interfaces list - use of “SHOULD”
>
> Thomas: To 4.1, I made the following comment:
> "Is this a should, or a SHOULD? If the latter, should it be a MUST?
> In general, there are a lot of such “maybe normative language” through 
> the document, and I would much like to see an editorial pass — 
> essentially all may/should/ must and friends carefully evaluated as if 
> they should become 2119-terms, and ... more importantly (it has been 
> called out before, fwiw) quite a bit of should/SHOULD which ought to 
> be transformed into MUST.
> Generally, aiming for a very a low number of SHOULD is a good design 
> metric for a document”
> Aside from the general comment on 2119-language, why is this a SHOULD?
>
> AODVv2: We changed this instance to a MUST and will be checking for 
> “maybe normative language”.
>
>
> 20. Router client - Local Attached Network Set
>
> Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:
> As indicated earlier, I believe that the term “Router Client” is ill 
> chosen. I believe that it is more appropriately an “Attached Network 
> Set” since — as indicated previously — the term “Router Client” is 
> ambiguous. I am pleased to see, though, that this “Router Client List” 
> in reality is an “Attached Network Set” and so that change should be 
> (relatively) easy.
> The above comment still is applicable to this revision,
>
> AODVv2: See 5,9,12,13.
>
>
> 21. Subnet
> Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:
> Also, I recommend to not say “subnet” — how about rephrasing to “If a 
> prefix is included in the attached network set of an AODVv2 router, 
> then that AODVv2 router MUST provide connectivity for, i.e. answer to 
> RREQs and maintain sequence numbers for, all addresses from within 
> that prefix.”
> I note that while the term has been removed from section 4, there’re 4 
> lingering instances of this term in the document, that could easily be 
> removed.
>
> AODVv2: All mentions of "subnet" were in the ENAR section. They have 
> been updated to say network, or "networks attached to the routers"
>
>
> 22. relocating router client
>
> Thomas: I Also made a comment about Appendix B in my previous review, 
> which is referenced here. That comment still applies.
>
> AODVv2: Moved into main draft.
>
>
> 23. Neighbor Monitoring
>
> Thomas: To Section 4.3, I noticed:
> Does section 6.2 describe how to monitor an established adjacency 
> only, or how to discover neighbouring AODVv2 routers? Looking in 6.2, 
> I see
> “Not every pair of neighboring routers will necessarily form an 
> adjacency,” — so it likely isn’t 6.2 that tells me how to maintain 
> this table?
> In short, “A neighbour table MUST be maintained” — where can I find 
> information on how to do this?
> Section 6.2 states:
> “The default approach for monitoring bidirectional connectivity to the 
> next hop toward OrigAddr is to request acknowledgement of Route Reply 
> messages.”
> That certainly will tell me if a link over which an RREP is sent is 
> bi-directional, but will not maintain a “neighbor table”.
> So how is this done? Or, is the “Neighbor Table” not supposed to 
> contain the complete set of neighbours? What information “...MUST be 
> maintained” then, in this table?
> This is very unclear, I would not know how to implement a mechanism 
> that populates this “Neighbor Table” with the needed information here.
> I see no (relevant) changes to 6.2 nor to 4.3 so I assume that this 
> comment has not been addressed
>
> AODVv2: A new section was added to show how to update the neighbour 
> table. There have also been updates to this entire section since 
> version 12.
>
> 24.     pseudo-code
>
> Thomas:
> I am throwing this in here, as I am sure that I commented on that in 
> the previous review, but I do not see that addressed: is Appendix C 
> normative, or not? It represents “ a second specification of the 
> protocol, in a different language” from the main part of the 
> specification. I have not walked through and made 200% sure that both 
> are perfectly aligned and that there are no ambiguities, but having 
> two different specifications of a protocol is a recipe for disaster.  
> Please either make 2000% sure that they are specifying the same thing 
> without ambiguities, or remove one.
>
> AODVv2: Removed - maybe to include in an informational document in future.
>
>
> 25. seqnum as 16 bit unsigned integer
>
> Thomas: To section 4.4, I wrote:
> "would like to nit-pick that: the router can maintain this sequence 
> number in whatever format it pleases — but, when it includes it in 
> control messages, it must be representable in a specified format, 
> respecting certain rules.”
> I see that there were no changes following this comment.
>
> AODVv2: Why store it as anything other than what it needs to be when 
> it goes into a message? However, we now state "MUST report its own 
> sequence number as a 16 bit....whenever it creates a RREQ or RREP 
> message".
>
>
> 26. multiple seqnums?
>
> Thomas:
> To section 4.4 I asked for clarification as to if sequence numbers 
> were per interface or per router, as the specification was unclear on 
> that. The words has changed, but it still is unclear: how many 
> sequence numbers does a router maintain? One? One per interface?
>
> AODVv2: We tried to start discussion on that point, and in the 
> meantime we reverted to having 1 seqnum per router. We think the text 
> is clear... we refer to "the routers sequence number" or "its sequence 
> number" - never hinting that there could be multiple seqnums per 
> router (as far as I'm aware).
>
>
> 27. sets/lists/tables
>
> Thomas:
> In my previous review, I expressed that it would be preferential to 
> use “a notation of Sets” rather than tables. I see that this has not 
> changed.
>
> AODVv2: You preferred sets rather than lists in your previous 
> review...and explained our reasoning for this in responses to the 
> MANET list, and we did not receive further comments.
>
>
> 28. use of “node”
>
> Thomas:
> I made a comment on node and address, let me pick this up again. The 
> following:
> RteMsg.OrigAddr
> An IP address of the node which requires the route, i.e., the source 
> address of the IP packet triggering the route request.
> would be more compact and clear if getting rid of the term “node” and 
> said:
> RteMsg.OrigAddr
> The source address of the IP packet triggering the route request.
>
> AODVv2: Change made as suggested.
>
> 29. route table/rib/routing set
>
> Thomas: To section 4.6, and I (and others) have commented on this before:
> All AODVv2 routers MUST maintain a route table.  The route table entry 
> is a conceptual data structure.  Implementations MAY use any internal 
> representation but MUST contain the following information:
> In order to avoid confusion, rename this to “Routing Information Base” 
> or “Routing Set” — a Routing Table is an operating system construct, 
> whereon operations directly influence packet forwarding. What you are 
> defining here is a RIB/an RS.
>
> AODVv2: Done in version 13.
>
>
> 30. rreq for prefix, use of “ip address” and “address"
>
> Thomas:
> The confusion that I pointed out in my previous review on “IP address” 
> and “Address” being used a bit haphazardly persists, fwiw. It makes me 
> think, can a router send an RREQ for a prefix?
>
> AODVv2: See also #15. RREQ_Gen can include the prefix associated with 
> OrigAddr by adding a prefix length to the message, the prefix length 
> associated with the router client entry corresponding to OrigAddr. So 
> all routers which receive it can learn a route to the prefix on which 
> OrigAddr resides. But for TargAddr... the RREQ only has one target IP 
> address - the destination IP address of the packet requiring the 
> route... so what prefix length would it use? The RREQ requests a route 
> to a single IP address. However, when the RREP is created, RREP_Gen 
> should include the prefix length associated with the router client 
> entry for TargAddr. So all routers which receive this RREP learn a 
> route to the prefix TargAddr is part of (if the router client entry is 
> configured with a prefix length). The text has been updated to make 
> this more obvious.
>
>
> 31. next hop ip address wording
>
> Thomas:
> I also called this out in my previous review as incorrect, and despite 
> wordsmithing it still is:
>
>         Route.NextHop
>               The source IP address of the message advertising the 
> route to
>               Route.Address, i.e. an IP address of the AODVv2 router 
> used for
>               the next hop on the path toward Route.Address.
>
> If that “message” is an RFC5444 entity, then it does to have a “source 
> IP Address” — the encapsulating IP datagram containing the packet 
> containing the message does. And the message MAY have an Originator 
> Address
>
> AODVv2: Updated to say “the source IP address of the IP packet 
> containing the message advertising...”
>
>
>
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    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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    <br>
    Hello Chris,<br>
    <br>
    I stand by my statement.  The cited paper did not identify a loop. 
    Most importantly, the crucial part about route looping being
    prevented by sequence number still stands.  I also point out that
    the authors of that paper were constructive and complimentary to the
    clarity of the AODVv2 specification.  I truly hope we can work
    together with them to further prove the correctness of the protocol.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding the situation with unconfirmed routes, please not that
    unconfirmed routes can never be part of a routing loop because they
    don't carry data.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding the off-list discussion, it is our online equivalent of a
    hallway discussion, and a manageable, constructive environment for
    us to produce responsive resolutions to the comments from you and
    others.  I hope we will see the rest of your comments soon because
    we want to resolve them as soon as possible.  We were honor-bound to
    not disclose private information to the list, but as you can see we
    also work hard to resolve privately submitted comments.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/2016 10:22 AM, Dearlove,
      Christopher (UK) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
cite="mid:B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D9237C4D5@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net"
      type="cite">
      <meta http-equiv="Context-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
        medium)">
      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span>I haven’t followed the example (I
            hope to find time - but that’s true of too many things, with
            DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span>But we have a loop, a pretty
            fundamental problem in a routing algorithm, being discussed
            by the authors off-list, while in parallel assuring the list
            that “Other discussion about routing loops has not
            identified routing loop problems in the existing
            specification.” (see email chain below).</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span>I think we have a real problem with
            what’s wanting to advance to Proposed Standard soon, in
            terms of process and confidence.</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span>(I still haven’t managed to even
            write up comments on the perhaps one third of the draft I
            have read through yet.)</span></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>--
              </span></b></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Christopher Dearlove<br>
                Senior Principal Engineer<br>
                BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
              </span></b><b><span>__________________________________________________________________________<br>
              </span></b><span><br>
            </span><b><span>T</span></b><span>:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  <b>E:
              </b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br>
            </span><span><br>
            </span><span>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford
              Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br>
              <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                href="http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span>www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
              Limited<br>
              Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Registered Office: Surrey Research
              Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                lang="EN-US"> Lotte Steenbrink
                [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de">mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> 16 March 2016 17:13<br>
                <b>To:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> Charlie Perkins; manet<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent
                comments</span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>*** WARNING ***</span></b></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">
              <em><span>This message originates from outside our
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                  that you can look out for in emails you receive, click
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Hi Christopher,</p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        <div>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal">Am 02.03.2016 um 11:36 schrieb
                Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                  href="mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span>My concerns have been that
                    your co-authors have continued to discuss whether
                    looping could occur since you published to the list
                    saying all was well. (An issue to do with multiple
                    unconfirmed routes.) Maybe that’s a problem, maybe
                    it isn’t. But it lacks transparency, because it
                    hasn’t been discussed here.</span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">The loop possibility you’re referring
              to was a different one than the one discussed by Charlie.
              We’ve been contacted by researchers who are model checking
              MANET protocols to see if they permit any unwanted
              behaviour. They’ve used AODVv2 as a case study for the
              framework they’ve implemented to do this, and they’ve
              found the following loop:</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><img
                id="_x0039_449CB76-8F90-4B1B-9A69-1EABC96EDC99"
                src="cid:part6.01060606.09030603@earthlink.net"
                height="469" width="509"></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">1. n2 initiates a route discovery
              procedure for destination n3 by broadcasting a “rreq”
              message.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">2. n1 and n4 upon receiving the “rreq”
              message, add a route to their routing tables towards n2
              and store n2 as their next hop. Since it is the first time
              that these nodes have received a message from n2, the
              neighbor state of n2 is set to unconfirmed. Therefore, the
              route state is unconfirmed.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">3. As n1 and n4 are not the intended
              destination of the route request, they rebroadcast the
              “rreq” message.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">4. n1 receives the “rreq” message sent
              by n4 and since the route to n2 is unconfirmed it adds n4
              as new next hop to n2.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">5. n4 also adds n1 as the new next hop
              towards n2 after processing the “rreq” sent by node1. At
              this point a loop is formed between n1 and n4 but not used
              yet.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">6. n3 receives the “rreq” message sent
              by n1 and since it is the destination, it sends a “rrep”
              message towards n1.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">7. n2 moves out of n1 and n4
              communication range.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">8. n1 receives the “rrep” message sent
              by n3 and as the route state towards n2 is unconfirmed it
              multicasts the “rrep” message to the existing next hops,
              n2 and n4. Since n4 is adjacent to n1, it receives the
              message and then sends an ack to n1. Therefore, n1 sets
              the neighbor state of n4 to confirm and subsequently the
              route state towards n2 to valid. Then expunge the next hop
              n2 which has not received an ack from.<span></span></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">9. n4 by receiving the “rrep” message
              from n1 multicasts it to its next hops towards n1 and n2,<br
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2543">
              and similar to n1 it updates its routing table by
              validating n1 as its next hop to n2. At this point, a loop
              between n1 and n4 becomes valid.<span></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span>In response to these findings,
                we've changed 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route Information in
                -13, so that LoopFree() is *always* considered before
                adding a new route, even if all known routes to date are
                Unconfirmed.</span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Following up, they’ve found
                another loop in -13:</span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><img
                id="A11B362D-A1F7-467C-B721-1EB31F5342C2"
                src="cid:part7.01040602.07040001@earthlink.net"
                height="521" width="800"></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <ol start="1" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14504" type="1">
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14773">
                At first nodes are connected to each other as shown in
                Fig1.a.<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14563">
                n0 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination
                n3 by multicasting a “rreq” message to n2 with sq=2.<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14565">
                n2 after updating its routing table, multicast the
                “rreq” to its neighbors, n1 and n3.<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14503">
                n1 upon receiving the “rreq” message sent by n2 updates
                its routing table and adds a route with hop-count=2,
                sq=2 and next-hope=2<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14561">
                Consider that topology changes at this point and n1
                moves into communication range of n0, gets connected to
                n0, and n2 leaves n0 communication range, gets
                disconnected from n0, which leads to network topology
                shown in Fig1.b.<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14536">
                n0, which hasn’t received an “rrep” yet, resend the
                “rreq” message after increasing its sequence number to
                3.<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14538">
                n1 receives the new “rreq” message, with sq=3,
                next-hop=0 and hop-count=1, since it’s a better route it
                would be added to the routing table. Then n1 multicast
                the “rreq” message to its neighbors, n2 and n3.<span></span></li>
              <li class="MsoNormal"
                id="yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14534">
                n2 evaluate the received message sent by n1 and adds a
                new route to its routing table with sq=3, next-hop=1 and
                hop-count=2 since the sequence number of the received
                message is greater than the stored one.<span></span></li>
            </ol>
            <p class="MsoNormal">At this point a loop has been formed
              between nodes n1 and n2.<span></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Since we’ve moved to disallowing
                multiple Unconfirmed routes (in -14, which isn’t
                published yet), this one is resolved already as well.</span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">The reason we didn’t discuss this earlier
            on [manet] was that the authors hadn’t submitted their paper
            yet (and I didn’t want to leak their work). They’ve done so
            now, and will send us a link to their paper once it’s
            available. I’m guessing it’ll take a while to be published
            properly, but it should be enough for for our purposes for
            the paper to appear on
            <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://arxiv.org">arxiv.org</a>
            for now…</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal">Lotte</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
          </p>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>--</span></b></p>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>Christopher Dearlove<br>
                    Senior Principal Engineer<br>
                    BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
                  </span></b><b><span>__________________________________________________________________________<br>
                  </span></b><span><br>
                </span><b><span>T</span></b><span>:  +44 (0)1245 242194
                   |  <b>E:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a></span></a><br>
                </span><span><br>
                </span><span>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence,
                  Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford,
                  Essex CM2 8HN.<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span>www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><span>BAE Systems Applied
                    Intelligence Limited<br>
                    Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</span></p>
              </div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span>Registered Office: Surrey
                  Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                      class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
                      lang="EN-US">Charlie Perkins [<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net"><span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net</a></span></a>]<span
                        class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                      <b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>01
                      March 2016 01:08<br>
                      <b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Dearlove,
                      Christopher (UK); manet<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
                      [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments</span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><span> </span></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span>*** WARNING ***</span></b></p>
              </div>
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              </div>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Hello Chris,</p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">On 1/19/2016 5:37 AM, Dearlove,
                  Christopher (UK) wrote:</p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <blockquote>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">And outside those 31, that we’re
                    at this position with a suggestion there’s possible
                    looping (about which I have no idea) isn’t that
                    comforting.</p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                I hope your concerns have been resolved on this matter. 
                The paper mentioned on the mailing list pointed out
                various ambiguities in RFC 3561 described how the
                ambiguities might be construed to install self-routes
                and, combined with possible inconsistent choices for
                sequence number, loops could result.  But the email to
                the list several weeks ago indicated that these
                ambiguities do not exist in AODVv2.  The authors of that
                paper have expressed interest in doing a similar
                analysis on AODVv2.<br>
                <br>
                Other discussion about routing loops has not identified
                routing loop problems in the existing specification. 
                Use of unconfirmed or invalid routes for routing might
                lead to errors, but that doesn't carry over to produce
                loops in the route table.<br>
                <br>
                I'm looking for any other open issues outside of the
                Security Considerations which is being reworked
                according to recent comments but should be submitted
                soon.<br>
                <br>
                Regards,<br>
                Charlie P.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
              </p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">There’s also a lot of document to
                  review. Which of course I haven’t done at this time.
                  But my attention did alight on the IANA considerations
                  section, and I noted there that:</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">- Not sure why the jump to 10 for
                  message types, though I’m not opposed.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">- The PATH_METRIC TLV can’t be type
                  10, that’s already taken. See IANA register.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">- We previously pointed out that
                  CONT_SEQ_NUM (COMPLETE) already exists and does the
                  job that SEQ_NUM is doing, so why allocate another
                  TLV? (You could avoid the necessity of repeating
                  (COMPLETE) by simply commenting once and thereafter
                  omitting.)</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">- Why the suggested skipping of
                  types 12 to 14?</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b>--</b></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b>Christopher Dearlove<br>
                    Senior Principal Engineer<br>
                    BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
__________________________________________________________________________<br>
                  </b><br>
                  <b>T</b>:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  <b>E:<span
                      class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a
                    moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a></span></a><br>
                  <br>
                  BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford
                  Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2
                  8HN.<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                    href="http://www.baesystems.com/ai"><span>www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
                  Limited<br>
                  Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal">Registered Office: Surrey Research
                  Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
                    class="apple-converted-space"><span lang="EN-US"> </span></span><span
                    lang="EN-US">manet [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                      href="mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org"><span>mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span
                      class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf
                      Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Victoria
                    Mercieca<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>18
                    January 2016 21:45<br>
                    <b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>manet<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>[manet]
                    AODVv2 responses to recent comments</span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal"><b>*** WARNING ***</b></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
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                        from outside our organisation, either from an
                        external partner or the internet.</em><i><br>
                        <em>Consider carefully whether you should click
                          on any links, open any attachments or reply.</em><br>
                        <em>For information regarding</em><span
                          class="apple-converted-space"> </span><strong>Red
                          Flags</strong><span
                          class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em>that
                          you can look out for in emails you receive,
                          click</em><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><em><a
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                        <em>If you feel the email is suspicious, please
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                      EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from
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                  <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal">Hi all,</p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal">We have just released the
                        newest AODVv2 draft. The major update is the
                        separation of the AODVv2 route set from the RIB.<br>
                        <br>
                        Here are also responses to the comments received
                        before Christmas. This should include all the
                        points from Thomas Clausen regarding versions 11
                        and 12, and also a couple of other points which
                        have been brought up since. Apologies for the
                        huge email. For issues that need further
                        discussion, I have tried to include the main
                        points of the discussion so far. Please feel
                        free to create a separate thread for any further
                        discussion.<br>
                        <br>
                        We are still looking into the loop conditions
                        recently reported for AODV, also still working
                        on the text about security, and use of
                        msg-hop-limit.</p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal">Kind regards,</p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal">Victoria.</p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal"><br>
                          1. End-to-end / hop-by-hop acks - issue when a
                          route is marked as confirmed and valid when
                          the link to the next hop is confirmed as
                          bidirectional (but the links downstream have
                          not yet been verified as bidirectional).<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The authors believe this is an issue
                          which would not occur frequently, and would
                          right itself.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          <br>
                          This only occurs for the route to OrigAddr.
                          What needs to happen for this to occur is that
                          an intermediate node that takes part in the
                          route discovery between OrigAddr and TargAddr
                          coincidentally has packets to send to OrigAddr
                          in the time between confirming the link to its
                          own next hop toward OrigAddr is bidirectional,
                          and the time taken for all other routers on
                          the path to confirm their next hops too. If
                          the route is used to forward packets before
                          every other link in the path is confirmed as
                          bidirectional, and the data packets are
                          forwarded faster than the RREP and any
                          RREP_Acks, then yes they could be delivered to
                          a router without a valid route to OrigAddr.
                          Alternatively if one of the links turns out to
                          be unidirectional then the data packets will
                          also arrive at a router without a valid route.
                          In these cases, RERR messages will be
                          generated toward the source of the traffic,
                          the route to OrigAddr will be deleted at
                          routers back toward TargAddr, but if data
                          packets are still flowing from any source to
                          OrigAddr, the route will be re-requested by
                          the router responsible for discovering routes
                          for the source of the data.<br>
                          <br>
                          The changes required to make acknowledgements
                          end-to-end would require a lot more control
                          traffic and be necessary for every route
                          discovery and in almost all cases would be
                          unnecessary.<br>
                          <br>
                          Text has been added to the draft in “Local
                          Route State Changes” to describe this.<br>
                          <br>
                          2. Buffering<br>
                          ﻿Thomas:<br>
                          “It would seem that buffering, as specified,
                          does not accomplish what<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          it states that it accomplishes: packets are
                          (as you describe) still being<br>
                          sent while no route is available, and
                          therefore will be dropped later.<br>
                          =&gt; Consequently, it seems that buffering is
                          a futile exercise?”<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: ﻿Packets are buffered before a route
                          exists. A router only begins sending them when
                          it deems the route to be valid. In general,
                          buffering is not futile.<br>
                          <br>
                          True, there is this case outlined above where
                          the router could deem the route valid before
                          the bidirectionality check has happened for
                          each and every hop. If the links chosen for
                          the route are not all bidirectional, then yes,
                          any data packets forwarded along this route
                          will end up being dropped at some point on
                          that path.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          This case is caused by the RREP_Ack being
                          hop-by-hop, and not caused by buffering.<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: ﻿<br>
                          “Buffers have huge impacts on TCP performance,
                          and I doubt if the issues on e.g. TCP are well
                          enough understood by this WG (Bufferbloat was
                          an example of where people got it wrong,
                          despite having extensive experience).”<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Packets will only be buffered while a
                          route is requested. The TCP packets buffered
                          will be packets for session initialisation.
                          The authors believe that buffering these will
                          have a positive effect. Some references have
                          been suggested, listed here, the first of
                          which has been included in the draft:<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodli.pdf"><span>http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodli.pdf</span></a><br>
                          Mobile Internetworking with IPv6: Concepts,
                          Principles and Practices {Koodli, Perkins}<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt"><span>disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt</span></a><br>
                          Analysis of TCP performance over mobile ad hoc
                          networks<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=313540"><span><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=313540">http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=313540</a></span></a><br>
                          Alternatively, we could remove the mention of
                          TCP, and instead state that buffering MAY be
                          used for packets awaiting a route, but that
                          implementation and implications of this are
                          out of scope for AODVv2.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          3. Use of msg-hop-limit and msg-hop-count:<br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          But, either way, as according to your model
                          messages are never forwarded, but always are
                          intended for receipt by a router which is a
                          direct neighbor, then a &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt;
                          &gt;1 (which applies to the message) seems
                          inappropriate.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          Actually, according to that model, I would
                          even say that receipt of a message with a
                          &lt;msg-hop-count&gt; &gt;1 should be
                          interpreted as a malfunction.<br>
                          As you refer to RFC5444 appendix B, do note
                          that Appendix B of RFC5444 (and, note the
                          errata 4003) talks about:<br>
                                &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; field, if present,
                          contains the number of hops on which the
                          message is allowed to travel before being
                          discarded by a MANET router.  The
                          &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; is set by the message
                          originator and is used to prevent messages
                          from endlessly circulating in a MANET.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          Specifically “set by the message originator”
                          and “number of hops on which the message is
                          allowed to travel” — with your control
                          messages traveling just one hop, I believe
                          that setting &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; = 1 is
                          correct.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Discussion is still needed here. We
                          wonder if these fields are necessary at all
                          for AODVv2. We were using them to limit the
                          number of regenerations of a RREQ. However,
                          the hop limit value needs to be large enough
                          to allow a RREQ from one side of the network
                          to another. It might be the case that using
                          the hop limit, almost every router in the
                          network would receive that RREQ anyway, and by
                          using the redundancy check, we already stop
                          RREQs from circulating endlessly.<br>
                          <br>
                          4. Abstract<br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          “I made the following comment, which still
                          applies:<br>
                          “This is a little over-stating the
                          applicability: these statements may be true in
                          some scenarios (for example, when there are
                          few concurrent traffic flows, and therefore
                          few routes to repair, and therefore few
                          flooding operations to contend for channel
                          access). As a general statement, this last
                          sentence is incorrect””<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The text has been removed and the
                          abstract now states: “ The Ad Hoc On-demand
                          Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing
                          protocol is intended for use by mobile routers
                          in wireless, multihop networks.  AODVv2
                          determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers
                          within the network in an on-demand fashion.”<br>
                          <br>
                          5,9,12,13,20. Router Client<br>
                          Thomas:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          “I made a comment previously that “Router
                          client” is a poorly chosen term, and have
                          proposed alternatives. I’ve seen some attempts
                          on the list at rather than change the term,
                          explain it — some of which is in this
                          document. The “Overview” still talks about “a
                          router…one of its clients” - which is no less
                          confusing than last time Iw went through it.<br>
                          I reiterate, why not use “Local Attached
                          Network Set”, which is the term used by other
                          documents from this WG?”<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We already answered this suggestion on
                          the MANET list and asked for comments and
                          suggestions, and no responses were received.
                          We have defined what we mean by Router Client,
                          and the terminology has so far not changed.
                          However, some alternatives have been
                          suggested, so if you feel any of these are
                          more effective, please let us know:<br>
                          ﻿•    Advertised IP Address: puts the emphasis
                          on advertisement rather than topological
                          connection<br>
                          •    Accessible IP Address: puts the emphasis
                          on accessibility through the particular router
                          – not bad<br>
                          •    Reduced Function Device [RFD]: doesn’t
                          roll off the tongue, but this is terminology
                          used for L2R in IEEE 802 Wireless for a
                          similar situation<br>
                          •    Accessible Device Address: adds some
                          emphasis for the device as well as the address<br>
                          ﻿•    Stably Connected IP Address: nothing is
                          permanent, of course, but the router client
                          set is thought to be relatively stable<br>
                          •    Topologically Connected IP address: ...
                          suggests that a "topological connection" is
                          stable compared to wireless<br>
                          •    Administratively Assigned IP address: ...
                          somehow does not connote the "otherness" of
                          the router client devices.<br>
                          <br>
                          6. Overview - adjacency<br>
                          Thomas:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          The term “confirming adjacency” is gone, and
                          is now replaced by “confirming
                          bidirectionality” - which, alas, still sounds
                          like there is some active monitoring (HELLO
                          message exchange) going on. Unless that is the
                          case, then please be more specific here.<br>
                          I note that the term adjacency is used through
                          and through the document, btw.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The text has been updated to avoid the
                          word adjacency. We do not believe the text
                          implies active monitoring through HELLO
                          messages.<br>
                          <br>
                          7. Overview - forwarding plane<br>
                          Thomas: I suggested in my last review: The
                          overview must also include a paragraph on the
                          intersections between this protocol and the
                          forwarding plane — this, as it is different
                          (and more invasive) from that which is
                          typically seen in routing protocols.<br>
                          Specifically, as a reactive protocol, it is
                          required (at least) that the forwarding plane
                          is modified :<br>
                          1) A “miss” when looking up a next hop for a
                          data packet to be forwarded, is signalled to
                          the AODVv2 process so as to permit that route
                          discovery be launched;<br>
                          2) A “miss” when attempting to deliver a data
                          packet to a next hop, which was recorded in
                          the routing table, is signalled to the AODVv2
                          process so as to permit that a route repair be
                          initiated and/or a Route Error be generated.<br>
                          3) A “hit” when looking up a next hop for a
                          data packet to be forwarded to a destination
                          is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to
                          permit maintenance of “active route” Route
                          State, timers and such.<br>
                          Note that these things are necessary to call
                          out in the “overview” and in the
                          “applicability statement”, both: it is not
                          that they are negatives per se, but that they
                          are important factors governing the
                          applicability of this protocol: will a given
                          platform permit such access to the forwarding
                          plane, for example? Important to understand if
                          for that platform this protocol is apple<br>
                          I see that this was not addressed in the
                          overview, nor in the applicability other than
                          by a forward reference to section 6.4. While
                          it is positive that there is a section 6.4,
                          this does not exonerate the overview and the
                          applicability statement for being honest about
                          the requirements (notably to the platform/os)
                          that this protocol has for being applicable<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The Overview and the Applicability
                          Statement now refer to these basic
                          requirements for the interaction with the
                          forwarding plane. The Applicability Statement
                          also contains the reference to the later
                          section which describes this in more detail.<br>
                          <br>
                          8. 7182 and security<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I suggested in my last review: It is
                          important to do more than this: 7182 does only
                          provide “containers” for ICVs and timestamps,
                          and does not specify how to use them to obtain
                          specific security properties. RFC7182 may be a
                          tool that can be used, but how* that tool is
                          used is what determines the security
                          properties.<br>
                          Therefore, saying that “security is dealt with
                          by using RFC7182” is either an incomplete
                          statement, or is indicative of insufficient
                          security considerations.”<br>
                          The actual sentence in the I-D has been
                          changed, now it explicitly names the two TLVs
                          from 7182 that it uses. That is, alas, still
                          not sufficient.<br>
                          Making the aside that was discussed recently
                          on the list, that (i) control messages are not
                          forwarded, and that (ii) they are modified in
                          transit, the security/trust model is somewhat
                          different from that of 7181 and consequently
                          for what 7182 was initially written for. I
                          think that  calling out the trust model, and
                          how 7182 actually is used here, might be what
                          is called for.<br>
                          Continuing with the aside, this *especially*
                          as the applicability statement says:
                          "Providing security for a reactive routing
                          protocol can be difficult”<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          ﻿OK, so assume that I understand regeneration
                          as per my previous email, as meaning “generate
                          a new message and send to my neighbors, based
                          on what I learned when processing a received
                          message” — just like any distance vector
                          protocol does.<br>
                          In that model, what you write makes sense:
                          each originator of a control message (i.e.,
                          whoever generates or regenerates it) is free
                          to include the information it desires, such as
                          the 4 points you list above. No issues with
                          that.<br>
                          However, and this joins what I pointed out in
                          a previous email, you write in the
                          applicability statement: "Providing security
                          for a reactive routing protocol can be
                          difficult."<br>
                          While we can discuss if the nature
                          of “reactive routing protocol” generates
                          particular difficulties, we certainly can
                          agree that this protocol has the
                          same “difficulties” as a distance vector
                          protocol: routing topology information (by
                          definition) not being exchanged end-to-end,
                          but between neighbors (who do calculations and
                          generate their own announcements —
                          regeneration, as you call it).<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          This means that a specific security model of
                          transitive trust must be assumed, no? I trust
                          Victoria, therefore when Victoria says “Stan
                          told me” then I trust that she actually
                          verified that "it was indeed Stan who told
                          her …” — and either way, I have no way of
                          verifying?<br>
                          I did not see the trust model / trust
                          assumption discussed in the specification
                          (specifically not in applicability and in
                          section 13, both of where it should be called
                          out), but I think that this is actually a
                          crucial point to get right, in order to
                          approach developing the MTI security
                          mechanisms.<br>
                          Anyways, that observation actually contrasts
                          strongly with what the applicability statement
                          then goes on to say, namely:<br>
                             AODVv2 provides for message integrity and
                          security against replay<br>
                             attacks by using integrity check values,
                          timestamps and sequence<br>
                             numbers, as described in Section 13.<br>
                          This is true only in as much as messages are
                          indeed exchanged between neighbors: when
                          you “regenerate” a message, i.e., generate a
                          new message in response to receipt of a
                          message, you generate brand new payload (but
                          possibly including some of the data from the
                          received message, of course): thus, any
                          ICVs “from farther away than the
                          neighbor” will be useless (or, if you zero out
                          the parts that you change, these parts will
                          not be protected).<br>
                          The above sentence, quoted from the
                          applicability statement, and that which
                          transpires from section 13, seems - certainly,
                          absent the trust model assumed - to suggest
                          that end-to-end protection/validation is
                          provided. But, this is not the case.<br>
                          Finally to the applicability statement, a
                          question:<br>
                          If security associations can be established,
                          encryption can be used for AODVv2 messages to
                          ensure that only trusted routers participate
                          in routing operations.<br>
                          What you want to say here is that “if all
                          trusted routers have a shared secret, then
                          we’re able to use that shared secret to ignore
                          non-trusted routers”, right?<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          While “security associations” that do not pass
                          through a shared secret probably can be
                          thought up, it’s not trivial and I did not
                          find any discussion of that in the document?<br>
                          Having, on the topic of security, re-read
                          Section 13, which starts:<br>
                             This section describes various security
                          considerations and potential<br>
                             avenues to secure AODVv2 routing. <span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          While this is an honest description of what
                          follows, I remain convinced that this is not
                          sufficient. So let me ask as precisely as I
                          can:<br>
                          o what is the MTI security mechanism that a
                          conformant implementation must
                          provide? Specifically: - which are the
                          processing steps (for example in section
                          7.2.1 and section 7.2.2 for RREP - and
                          similarly for the other message types) that
                          define that security mechanism<br>
                          o what protection is offered by that MTI
                          security mechanism? And what remains
                          vulnerable.<br>
                          If this specification targets std.track, then
                          it should include (reasonably solid, but
                          definitely well specified) MTI security.<br>
                          <br>
                          Chris Dearlove:<br>
                          ﻿There are two potential choices:<br>
                          <br>
                          - RREQ has an integrity check value to
                          indicate that someone trusted created it, if
                          not necessarily the destination. That someone
                          might be identifiable or not.<br>
                          - RREQ has a signature that indicates that the
                          destination created it.<br>
                          <br>
                          Unfortunately, an RREQ that changes as it is
                          forwarded (aggregating data of any sort) makes
                          the second option tricky, unless there’s some
                          sort of aggregating signature as it is
                          forwarded. But I’m not an expert on the
                          latter.<br>
                          <br>
                          The most trivial case of the former is simply
                          that everyone trusted has a single shared key.
                          That has obvious issues – although it was good
                          enough that embodied as RFC 7183 we could get
                          7181 through the system (as a “must implement,
                          do not need to use” minimal case).
                          Alternatively something identity-based (e.g.
                          draft-ietf-manet-ibs) could be used, so you
                          know who created the message you received, but
                          you are relying on a chain of trust, hop by
                          hop. At which point you might as well just
                          sign packets (see RFC 7182).<br>
                          <br>
                          But in even the weakest case (the single
                          shared key used hop by hop) there has to be a
                          failure for things to go wrong - either loss
                          of key (in which case all bets are off) or
                          suborning one router (who can do quite a lot
                          of damage).<br>
                          <br>
                          I haven't read the latest AODVv2 draft yet,
                          but this sort of thing should be described in
                          its security considerations - the previous
                          draft though didn't discuss this as far as I
                          recall.<br>
                          <br>
                          Chris Dearlove:<br>
                          ﻿If you go down this route of assuming
                          transitive trust, then you might as well use
                          7182’s packet ICV and timestamp rather than
                          message ICV and timestamp.<br>
                           <br>
                          There is a complication (mostly one of
                          presentation) that the 5444 multiplexer
                          (rather than AODVv2) needs to do this, at
                          least for packets containing AODVv2 messages
                          (but at which point, probably all 5444
                          packets). So you either, depending on your
                          point of view, need to request it to do that,
                          or (administratively) decline to operate
                          except over a 5444 multiplexer that is doing
                          this.<br>
                           <br>
                          The advantage is one of saved space and time
                          when packets contain more than one message.
                          Plus slightly better protection (hop count and
                          limit are covered) but which probably doesn’t
                          matter here.<br>
                           <br>
                          If messages are changed/replaced on a
                          one-to-one basis as forwarded, then the only
                          solutions I can see are hop by hop transitive
                          trust (packets or messages per hop), or
                          something complicated involving aggregation
                          and knowledge of changes. But the latter would
                          be a research task to develop, so let’s not
                          try that.<br>
                          <br>
                          Jiazi Yi:<br>
                          I﻿ agree with Chris and Thomas on their
                          concerns on the hop-by-hop security issue.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          This is very different from classical DV
                          protocol, in which the vector information is
                          designed to be exchanged between neighbours.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          In AODVv2, the RREQ/RREP/RERR are to be
                          forwarded through multiple hops. A router can
                          sign a message that isn't actually initialised
                          by itself -- this is, at least, against
                          intuition.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          This can be an issue if we have compromised
                          routers in the network. Of course, a
                          compromised router is a problem for every
                          protocol, like OLSRv2. But in OLSRv2, a
                          compromised router can only speak on behalf of
                          itself -- however, in AODVv2, a
                          compromised/mis-configured router can pretend
                          to be any other router (for example, generate
                          RREQ messages using another address as
                          OrigAddr).  The consequence will be much more
                          serious if that happens.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: This is not yet addressed.<br>
                          <br>
                          9. Terminology - host, routers, router
                          clients:<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: My last review suggested:<br>
                          “This has been brought up on the list several
                          times in the past, without having been
                          addressed.<br>
                          There are “hosts” and there are “routers” —
                          whose roles are well defined. Node” not so
                          much — which is clear from looking at the
                          definition here: “either AODVv2 routers or
                          router clients” (with “router clients” being
                          defined as “an AODVv2 router is also its own
                          router client”).<br>
                          <br>
                          This is very much related to the use of
                          “Router Client”, and both that term, and
                          “node” indicative that some clarity is needed
                          here.<br>
                          <br>
                          All a router cares about is “an address”. If
                          that address is of a network, or a router, or
                          an interface (and, if said interface is
                          installed in a router or a host) doesn’t
                          matter.<br>
                          <br>
                          So, “an address” is something that the routing
                          protocol should care about finding paths to.
                          Which means that each address that should be
                          made reachable by the routing protocol should
                          be advertised by (at least) one router in the
                          network.<br>
                          <br>
                          One way of doing that would be to simply talk
                          about “Attached Networks” as is done in
                          RFC7181, wherein an address included in the
                          “Attached Network Set” is advertised by an
                          OLSRv2 router....in this case, the equivalent
                          would be “for each address in the Attached
                          Network Set of an AODVv2 router the router
                          MUST respond authoritatively to a RREQ, and
                          MUST maintain the corresponding sequence
                          number”.<br>
                          The text, as it currently is, is really hard
                          to read, and a re-edit along these lines would
                          go a long way.”<br>
                          <br>
                          I note that the terms “Node” and “Router
                          Client” are still used, in their original
                          form, and that other than some slight
                          wordsmithing this comment has not been
                          addressed in the document.<br>
                          <br>
                          I reiterate that the need to use router, host,
                          node, and router client in and by itself
                          should be an indicator that tightening up of
                          terminology is required.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: See 5. The use of “node” has been
                          addressed.<br>
                          <br>
                          10. Terminology and elsewhere - address<br>
                          Thomas: I made the following comment to
                          Routable Unicast IP Address:<br>
                          “Are there any technical reason why not simply
                          *any* address could be considered by the
                          routing protocol?<br>
                          My understanding, but correct me if I am
                          wrong, is that all that is required is that
                          all interfaces in a given AODVv2 routing
                          domain has an unique address.<br>
                          That some of these addresses (by an IP
                          addressing architecture document) has special
                          semantics associated (such as are link locals,
                          or are for private use, or are for example use
                          only, or are for multicast) is out of scope
                          here?<br>
                          I see nothing has changed on the above, so let
                          me be more explicit: the routing protocol
                          itself probably) should not care about what
                          kind of addresses are filled into it. Is an
                          192.16./16 address appropriate? Not across the
                          internet, but it may be in somebody’s private
                          deployments. Should the routing protocol be
                          “address police” and is implementation of a “I
                          refuse to route these addresses…” a
                          requirement for claiming conformance? Suggest
                          simply stating what the requirements are under
                          which the routing protocol will work — and
                          leave “address assignment politics” aside.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We ask for clarification on this
                          issue. We use the phrase “routable and
                          unicast” in the draft with respect to OrigAddr
                          and TargAddr. We dont mean to exclude
                          addresses from the private address ranges. But
                          we dont want to request routes for multicast,
                          indeterminate, link-local, or loopback
                          addresses. This is not about router interface
                          addresses which are used for AODVv2.<br>
                          <br>
                          11. Multiple interfaces with the same IP
                          address, 6621 implications<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I also continued:<br>
                          Now, with that being said also, the WG wanted
                          that RFC7181 supports not just multiple
                          interfaces, but also the same address used on
                          multiple interfaces of the same router. There
                          were good reasons for that, and while it was
                          not trivial to implement, it turned out to be
                          the right thing to support. If there are
                          technical reasons why this is not supported in
                          AODVv2 (for example, if this cannot be made
                          work because of &lt;reason&gt;) then that
                          should be called out in the applicability
                          statement also?<br>
                          Conversely, if it is possible in AODVv2, then
                          I do not believe that it is clearly specified
                          how (at least, in the “naive” on paper
                          examples I drew up, something ended up not
                          working). So either the protocol as-is does
                          not support it (but could be made to?) or it
                          is supported (but just need to be spelled
                          out), or is not possible (and need to be
                          disclaimed in the applicability statement).<br>
                          Stan Ratliff was a driving force in holding
                          the WG’s collective feet to the fire in
                          getting this support included in RFC7181, and
                          would likely be the right person to consult on
                          this matter?<br>
                          I actually have not seen changes, or comments,
                          on this. In OLSRv2, the WG was making it a
                          strong requirement that it should be possible
                          to use the same IP address on different
                          interfaces of a router. It was somewhat
                          tedious to design around, but it was worked
                          out, and the conditions under which that was
                          possible were defined and documented.<br>
                          I would like to see the same done for this
                          protocol.<br>
                          I also note that this is not unrelated to
                          RFC6621-discussions. For example, when
                          selecting S-MPRs on a multi-interface and
                          multi-address-per-interface router, care must
                          be taken least things won’t work. So, if (and
                          this links back to previous mails) RFC6621 is
                          a requirement or desire for this protocol,
                          then there are some considerations required
                          here.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We have removed references to RFC
                          6621.<br>
                          Initial thoughts on this topic of multiple
                          interfaces using the same IP address, is that
                          this wouldn’t cause a problem, if the router
                          has only one sequence number. However, this is
                          up for further discussion.<br>
                          <br>
                          12. Interfaces configured as router clients<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I see that the definition of “Router
                          Client” has changed to be<br>
                          “An address or address range…the AODVv2
                          router’s interface addresses are also
                          configured as router clients”<br>
                          Better than before, but still missing the
                          target. The term “Router Client” is, as I
                          indicated numerous times before, odd.<br>
                          But the second part of the sentence, does that
                          mean (what it says) that the interfaces must
                          be configured specially, so as to be able to
                          be “router clients”? That can’t be true.<br>
                          What you likely mean is:<br>
                          An AODVv2 router is configured so as to
                          consider its own interfaces as part of the
                          locally attached network set” ?<br>
                          You configure the router, right? No special
                          “interface configuration properties” are
                          required for an interface to be announcable
                          by  an AODVv2 router? (And, getting rid of
                          node would actually make the definition
                          shorter and nicer)<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The wording we use says: "The IP
                          Addresses of the router's interfaces will
                          appear in the Router Client Table." and in the
                          Terminology: "The AODVv2 router's interface
                          addresses are also configured as Router
                          Clients." Both statements say that ‘interface
                          addresses are configured as router clients’
                          ...we are not sure why this is misunderstood.
                          We have a router client list, and the AODVv2
                          router’s interface addresses are included in
                          this list. The interface itself doesn’t have
                          special “interface configuration properties”.<br>
                          <br>
                          13 - more on router clients<br>
                          Thomas: Now, snipping out from the
                          applicability statement:<br>
                          "Multi-homing of an IP address is not
                          supported by AODVv2, and therefore a Router
                          Client, i.e. an IP Address,  … "<br>
                          …evidence to there being some redundant
                          terminology here to weed away.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: That was there as a reminder that a
                          router client is based on IP address, even
                          though the device with that IP address may
                          have other IP addresses too. It’s the IP
                          address that is the router client, not the
                          device as a whole with its entire collection
                          of configured IP addresses. One IP address of
                          that device might be configured as a router
                          client on one router, and a different IP
                          address of that device could be configured as
                          a router client on another router. The IP
                          addresses would seem to AODVv2 to be on
                          different devices.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          14. data elements<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: The below is a little bit of a
                          meta-comment, I am not quite sure what I think
                          here. The definitions for Target Node and such
                          were confusing before. They still are,
                          somewhat.<br>
                          I think that it may be because the definitions
                          now used are simply copy-pasted out from the
                          tables in the previous version, for example:<br>
                             “An AODVv2 Data Element containing the
                          destination address of the IP packet
                          triggering route discovery.”<br>
                          OK, I can trace back and see that a Data
                          Element is something that exists inside a
                          protocol message. To me, however, that’s not
                          really general terminology as such, but part
                          of the specification of a packet format - or
                          rather, it is the notation that you use when
                          describing an algorithm. By the way, why are
                          some notations in CamelCase whereas others
                          have a space in them, e.g. “Target Node” and
                          “TargMetric”, both of which are Data Elements?
                          Would be good with a consistent approach here.<br>
                          I *think* that it would be better to take all
                          those “Data Element” bits and move to a
                          separate section (or subsection) to the
                          terminology, and then keep all the “other
                          stuff” (Neighbor, …) in its own section.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Your comment from draft 11 where we
                          already had data elements in a separate table,
                          says:<br>
                          "Also suggest abolishing this table and
                          folding the definitions in with the other
                          definitions in the terminology section."<br>
                          We have updated to not refer so heavily to the
                          term Data Element. All the terms are described
                          in the Terminology section. Those in CamelCase
                          are used as message fields.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          15. Route “to a specific address”<br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I made a comment: Second, should “valid route”
                          not be qualified by “to a specific address”?”<br>
                          Which was not addressed.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Every route is to a specific
                          address...the address is specified by
                          Route.Address and Route.PrefixLength.<br>
                          Do you mean that routes are to the address
                          TargAddr or OrigAddr and therefore to a
                          specific host address rather than to a network
                          prefix? This is not the case. Prefix Length is
                          included in AODVv2 messages so that the route
                          learned from the message represents the prefix
                          which OrigAddr or TargAddr resides on (if the
                          router client entry corresponding to OrigAddr
                          at RREQ_Gen or TargAddr at RREP_Gen is
                          configured with a prefix length). e.g.
                          OrigAddr is 10.0.0.1 but the corresponding
                          router client entry at RREQ_Gen could be<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://10.0.0.0/8"><span>10.0.0.0/8</span></a>.
                          So when constructing the RREQ you include a
                          prefix length of 8, and when receiving the
                          RREQ and learning the route to OrigAddr, you
                          can install a route to<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><a
                            moz-do-not-send="true"
                            href="http://10.0.0.0/8"><span>10.0.0.0/8</span></a>. 
                          Text has been updated to make this more
                          obvious.<br>
                          <br>
                          16. unreachable address<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I also made a comment on "Unreachable
                          Address” - I am glad I did, because I
                          apparently had a different understanding than
                          what was intended. I now see that an
                          Unreachable Address by definition is an
                          address listed in a RERR message, and not the
                          same as an address to which no route has yet 
                          been discovered? If yes, then please use a
                          different term, such as
                          FormerlyReachableAddress” or something of the
                          sort?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: "Formerly reachable" is inaccurate...
                          we send a RERR if another router forwards a
                          packet via us, and we dont have a route, not
                          just when we lose a route. We might never have
                          had a route, or might never have had a valid
                          route, so the address may not have been
                          "formerly reachable". Also, I think
                          "FormerlyReachableAddress" is a really ugly
                          term. Unreachable means "we don’t have a route
                          and we aren’t going to request one" or "we
                          lost this route" (depending on why the RERR is
                          being sent). It doesn’t mean "we didn’t
                          request one yet", and it would be wrong to
                          class an address as unreachable because we
                          hadn’t requested a route for it yet, that is,
                          assuming it’s configured as a router client.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          <br>
                          If a better term is suggested we could
                          consider changing but at the moment we have
                          kept “Unreachable Address”.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          17. Applicability - multiple interfaces same
                          address, 6621 again<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: Applicability statement: First, I
                          would like to recognize the efforts made to
                          improve this since last review. Thanks<br>
                          Second, the document states: "AODVv2 supports
                          routers with multiple interfaces, as long as
                          each interface configured for AODVv2 has a
                          unicast IP address.  A router may use the same
                          IP address on multiple interfaces.  Address
                          assignment procedures are out of scope for
                          AODVv2.”<br>
                          Is that true? Granted, I have not worked this
                          through in detail, but I can present a
                          counter-example: the use of RFC6621 means that
                          there certainly are some constraints that must
                          be respected least various flooding
                          optimizations may not work.<br>
                          Secondly, if the
                          multiple-interfaces-with-same-address are on
                          the same L2, and this is what I have not
                          worked through, are there any situations that
                          will not work?<br>
                          The immediately previous version of this
                          specification read:<br>
                          "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple
                          interfaces, as long as each interface
                          configured for AODVv2 has its own unicast
                          routable IP address"<br>
                          So what changed that means that each interface
                          no longer needs its *own* unicast address?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Well, based on previous questions on
                          this, we talked it through and decided there
                          shouldn’t be an issue if different interfaces
                          of a router used the same IP address. Note
                          that we changed AODVv2 so that there is one
                          sequence number per router. No longer can a
                          router use different sequence numbers on
                          different interfaces. If an RREQ went out of
                          two interfaces using the same address, we
                          worked it through and decided the request
                          would be processed correctly.<span
                            class="apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
                          Also, text referring to RFC 6621 has been
                          removed.<br>
                          <br>
                          18. Applicability and appendix - multihoming<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I pointed out to the Applicability
                          Statement:<br>
                          I think that appendix B needs to be removed.
                          Essentially, it makes claims that it is
                          possible to do multi-homing — but neither
                          specifies how it is done, nor gives pointers
                          to documents that justify the claim.<br>
                          AODVv2 does not support multi-homing — that’s
                          clear, and it is fine that it is called out
                          here. Thank you for that.<br>
                          Now, with that being said, I am torn between
                          being satisfied that it is called out on one
                          hand, and wanting to have “multi homing” on
                          the other hand. RFC7181 supports multi-homing,
                          FWIW.<br>
                          I believe that this also would merit some
                          explicit discussion by the WG, in order to
                          understand if this design decision is
                          acceptable?<br>
                          I see that Appendix B still is in the
                          document, and I do not recall having seen this
                          discussed on the mailing list. Simply removing
                          the reference from the Applicability Statement
                          to Appendix B does not address the issue that
                          I raised in my previous review.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Appendix has been removed and may
                          appear in a future informational document.<br>
                          <br>
                          19. interfaces list - use of “SHOULD”<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To 4.1, I made the following comment:<br>
                          "Is this a should, or a SHOULD? If the latter,
                          should it be a MUST?<br>
                          In general, there are a lot of such “maybe
                          normative language” through the document, and
                          I would much like to see an editorial pass —
                          essentially all may/should/ must and friends
                          carefully evaluated as if they should become
                          2119-terms, and ... more importantly (it has
                          been called out before, fwiw) quite a bit of
                          should/SHOULD which ought to be transformed
                          into MUST.<br>
                          Generally, aiming for a very a low number of
                          SHOULD is a good design metric for a document”<br>
                          Aside from the general comment on
                          2119-language, why is this a SHOULD?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We changed this instance to a MUST and
                          will be checking for “maybe normative
                          language”.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          20. Router client - Local Attached Network Set<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:<br>
                          As indicated earlier, I believe that the term
                          “Router Client” is ill chosen. I believe that
                          it is more appropriately an “Attached Network
                          Set” since — as indicated previously — the
                          term “Router Client” is ambiguous. I am
                          pleased to see, though, that this “Router
                          Client List” in reality is an “Attached
                          Network Set” and so that change should be
                          (relatively) easy.<br>
                          The above comment still is applicable to this
                          revision,<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: See 5,9,12,13.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          21. Subnet<br>
                          Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:<br>
                          Also, I recommend to not say “subnet” — how
                          about rephrasing to “If a prefix is included
                          in the attached network set of an AODVv2
                          router, then that AODVv2 router MUST provide
                          connectivity for, i.e. answer to RREQs and
                          maintain sequence numbers for, all addresses
                          from within that prefix.”<br>
                          I note that while the term has been removed
                          from section 4, there’re 4 lingering instances
                          of this term in the document, that could
                          easily be removed.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: All mentions of "subnet" were in the
                          ENAR section. They have been updated to say
                          network, or "networks attached to the routers"<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          22. relocating router client<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I Also made a comment about Appendix B
                          in my previous review, which is referenced
                          here. That comment still applies.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Moved into main draft.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          23. Neighbor Monitoring<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To Section 4.3, I noticed:<br>
                          Does section 6.2 describe how to monitor an
                          established adjacency only, or how to discover
                          neighbouring AODVv2 routers? Looking in 6.2, I
                          see<br>
                          “Not every pair of neighboring routers will
                          necessarily form an adjacency,” — so it likely
                          isn’t 6.2 that tells me how to maintain this
                          table?<br>
                          In short, “A neighbour table MUST be
                          maintained” — where can I find information on
                          how to do this?<br>
                          Section 6.2 states:<br>
                          “The default approach for monitoring
                          bidirectional connectivity to the next hop
                          toward OrigAddr is to request acknowledgement
                          of Route Reply messages.”<br>
                          That certainly will tell me if a link over
                          which an RREP is sent is bi-directional, but
                          will not maintain a “neighbor table”.<br>
                          So how is this done? Or, is the “Neighbor
                          Table” not supposed to contain the complete
                          set of neighbours? What information “...MUST
                          be maintained” then, in this table?<br>
                          This is very unclear, I would not know how to
                          implement a mechanism that populates this
                          “Neighbor Table” with the needed information
                          here.<br>
                          I see no (relevant) changes to 6.2 nor to 4.3
                          so I assume that this comment has not been
                          addressed<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: A new section was added to show how to
                          update the neighbour table. There have also
                          been updates to this entire section since
                          version 12.<br>
                          <br>
                          24.     pseudo-code<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I am throwing this in here, as I am sure that
                          I commented on that in the previous review,
                          but I do not see that addressed: is Appendix C
                          normative, or not? It represents “ a second
                          specification of the protocol, in a different
                          language” from the main part of the
                          specification. I have not walked through and
                          made 200% sure that both are perfectly aligned
                          and that there are no ambiguities, but having
                          two different specifications of a protocol is
                          a recipe for disaster.  Please either make
                          2000% sure that they are specifying the same
                          thing without ambiguities, or remove one.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Removed - maybe to include in an
                          informational document in future.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          25. seqnum as 16 bit unsigned integer<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To section 4.4, I wrote:<br>
                          "would like to nit-pick that: the router can
                          maintain this sequence number in whatever
                          format it pleases — but, when it includes it
                          in control messages, it must be representable
                          in a specified format, respecting certain
                          rules.”<br>
                          I see that there were no changes following
                          this comment.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Why store it as anything other than
                          what it needs to be when it goes into a
                          message? However, we now state "MUST report
                          its own sequence number as a 16
                          bit....whenever it creates a RREQ or RREP
                          message".<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          26. multiple seqnums?<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          To section 4.4 I asked for clarification as to
                          if sequence numbers were per interface or per
                          router, as the specification was unclear on
                          that. The words has changed, but it still is
                          unclear: how many sequence numbers does a
                          router maintain? One? One per interface?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We tried to start discussion on that
                          point, and in the meantime we reverted to
                          having 1 seqnum per router. We think the text
                          is clear... we refer to "the routers sequence
                          number" or "its sequence number" - never
                          hinting that there could be multiple seqnums
                          per router (as far as I'm aware).<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          27. sets/lists/tables<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          In my previous review, I expressed that it
                          would be preferential to use “a notation of
                          Sets” rather than tables. I see that this has
                          not changed.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: You preferred sets rather than lists
                          in your previous review...and explained our
                          reasoning for this in responses to the MANET
                          list, and we did not receive further comments.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          28. use of “node”<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I made a comment on node and address, let me
                          pick this up again. The following:<br>
                          RteMsg.OrigAddr<br>
                          An IP address of the node which requires the
                          route, i.e., the source address of the IP
                          packet triggering the route request.<br>
                          would be more compact and clear if getting rid
                          of the term “node” and said:<br>
                          RteMsg.OrigAddr<br>
                          The source address of the IP packet triggering
                          the route request.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Change made as suggested.<br>
                          <br>
                          29. route table/rib/routing set<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To section 4.6, and I (and others)
                          have commented on this before:<br>
                          All AODVv2 routers MUST maintain a route
                          table.  The route table entry is a conceptual
                          data structure.  Implementations MAY use any
                          internal representation but MUST contain the
                          following information:<br>
                          In order to avoid confusion, rename this to
                          “Routing Information Base” or “Routing Set” —
                          a Routing Table is an operating system
                          construct, whereon operations directly
                          influence packet forwarding. What you are
                          defining here is a RIB/an RS.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Done in version 13.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          30. rreq for prefix, use of “ip address” and
                          “address"<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          The confusion that I pointed out in my
                          previous review on “IP address” and “Address”
                          being used a bit haphazardly persists, fwiw.
                          It makes me think, can a router send an RREQ
                          for a prefix?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: See also #15. RREQ_Gen can include the
                          prefix associated with OrigAddr by adding a
                          prefix length to the message, the prefix
                          length associated with the router client entry
                          corresponding to OrigAddr. So all routers
                          which receive it can learn a route to the
                          prefix on which OrigAddr resides. But for
                          TargAddr... the RREQ only has one target IP
                          address - the destination IP address of the
                          packet requiring the route... so what prefix
                          length would it use? The RREQ requests a route
                          to a single IP address. However, when the RREP
                          is created, RREP_Gen should include the prefix
                          length associated with the router client entry
                          for TargAddr. So all routers which receive
                          this RREP learn a route to the prefix TargAddr
                          is part of (if the router client entry is
                          configured with a prefix length). The text has
                          been updated to make this more obvious.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          31. next hop ip address wording<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I also called this out in my previous review
                          as incorrect, and despite wordsmithing it
                          still is:<br>
                          <br>
                                  Route.NextHop<br>
                                        The source IP address of the
                          message advertising the route to<br>
                                        Route.Address, i.e. an IP
                          address of the AODVv2 router used for<br>
                                        the next hop on the path toward
                          Route.Address.<br>
                          <br>
                          If that “message” is an RFC5444 entity, then
                          it does to have a “source IP Address” — the
                          encapsulating IP datagram containing the
                          packet containing the message does. And the
                          message MAY have an Originator Address<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Updated to say “the source IP address
                          of the IP packet containing the message
                          advertising...”<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                        </p>
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--------------020806090600040805000409--

--------------020203080901040503000406--


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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:28:41 +0000
To: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/F_m1N5ju8-gLJhcyEAuTBNF8-3Q>
Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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You said that the paper hadn't identified a loop. If you'd stopped there, th=
at would have been fine. I think I can see where they were assuming rather s=
trange behaviour.

But you then went on to say "Other discussion about routing loops has not id=
entified routing loop problems in the existing specification." That goes fur=
ther and indicates no other discussion about loops. But Lotte has just said t=
hat there was other discussion. More, she says two loops were identified (an=
d now fixed).

In addition, you're now saying that unconfirmed routes can't form a loop. Th=
at may be so, as I said I haven't considered the case. But Lotte just said t=
here were two loops that needed fixing.

The problem is that the statements the authors are making are contradictory.=
 And that leads to a lack of confidence.

--=20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com



-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone)
chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home)
> On 16 Mar 2016, at 20:32, Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net> w=
rote:
>=20
>=20
> Hello Chris,
>=20
> I stand by my statement.  The cited paper did not identify a loop.  Most i=
mportantly, the crucial part about route looping being prevented by sequence=
 number still stands.  I also point out that the authors of that paper were c=
onstructive and complimentary to the clarity of the AODVv2 specification.  I=
 truly hope we can work together with them to further prove the correctness o=
f the protocol.
>=20
> Regarding the situation with unconfirmed routes, please not that unconfirm=
ed routes can never be part of a routing loop because they don't carry data.=

>=20
> Regarding the off-list discussion, it is our online equivalent of a hallwa=
y discussion, and a manageable, constructive environment for us to produce r=
esponsive resolutions to the comments from you and others.  I hope we will s=
ee the rest of your comments soon because we want to resolve them as soon as=
 possible.  We were honor-bound to not disclose private information to the l=
ist, but as you can see we also work hard to resolve privately submitted com=
ments.
>=20
> Regards,
> Charlie P.
>=20
>=20
>> On 3/16/2016 10:22 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but that=E2=
=80=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing algorithm, b=
eing discussed by the authors off-list, while in parallel assuring the list t=
hat =E2=80=9COther discussion about routing loops has not identified routing=
 loop problems in the existing specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain belo=
w).
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to P=
roposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> (I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even write up comments on the perhaps=
 one third of the draft I have read through yet.)
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --
>>=20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
_
>>=20
>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo=
w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>> www.baesystems.com/ai
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>>=20
>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de]=20
>> Sent: 16 March 2016 17:13
>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
>> Cc: Charlie Perkins; manet
>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> *** WARNING ***
>>=20
>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext=
ernal partner or the internet.
>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach=
ments or reply.
>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y=
ou receive, click here.
>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>=20
>> Hi Christopher,
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Am 02.03.2016 um 11:36 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove=
@baesystems.com>:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> My concerns have been that your co-authors have continued to discuss whet=
her looping could occur since you published to the list saying all was well.=
 (An issue to do with multiple unconfirmed routes.) Maybe that=E2=80=99s a p=
roblem, maybe it isn=E2=80=99t. But it lacks transparency, because it hasn=E2=
=80=99t been discussed here.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The loop possibility you=E2=80=99re referring to was a different one than=
 the one discussed by Charlie. We=E2=80=99ve been contacted by researchers w=
ho are model checking MANET protocols to see if they permit any unwanted beh=
aviour. They=E2=80=99ve used AODVv2 as a case study for the framework they=E2=
=80=99ve implemented to do this, and they=E2=80=99ve found the following loo=
p:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> <mime-attachment.jpg>
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> 1. n2 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination n3 by broadca=
sting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message.
>>=20
>> 2. n1 and n4 upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message, add a rou=
te to their routing tables towards n2 and store n2 as their next hop. Since i=
t is the first time that these nodes have received a message from n2, the ne=
ighbor state of n2 is set to unconfirmed. Therefore, the route state is unco=
nfirmed.
>>=20
>> 3. As n1 and n4 are not the intended               destination of the rou=
te request, they rebroadcast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message.
>>=20
>> 4. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n4 and since th=
e route to n2 is unconfirmed it adds n4 as new next hop to n2.
>>=20
>> 5. n4 also adds n1 as the new next hop towards n2 after processing the =E2=
=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D sent by node1. At this point a loop is formed between n1=
 and n4 but not used yet.
>>=20
>> 6. n3 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n1 and since it=
 is the destination, it sends a =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message towards n1.
>>=20
>> 7. n2 moves out of n1 and n4 communication range.
>>=20
>> 8. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message sent by n3 and as the r=
oute state towards n2 is unconfirmed it multicasts the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D=
 message to the existing next hops, n2 and n4. Since n4 is adjacent to n1, i=
t receives the message and then sends an ack to n1. Therefore, n1 sets the n=
eighbor state of n4 to confirm and subsequently the route state towards n2 t=
o valid. Then expunge the next hop n2 which has not received an ack from.
>>=20
>> 9. n4 by receiving the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message from n1 multicasts i=
t to its next hops towards n1 and n2,
>> and similar to n1 it updates its routing table by validating n1 as its ne=
xt hop to n2. At this point, a loop between n1 and n4 becomes valid.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> In response to these findings, we've changed 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route Inf=
ormation in -13, so that LoopFree() is *always* considered before adding a n=
ew route, even if all known routes to date are Unconfirmed.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Following up, they=E2=80=99ve found another loop in -13:
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> <mime-attachment.jpg>
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> At first nodes are connected to each other as shown in Fig1.a.
>> n0 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination n3 by multicasti=
ng a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message to n2 with sq=3D2.
>> n2 after updating its routing table, multicast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D=
 to its neighbors, n1 and n3.
>> n1 upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by n2 updates i=
ts routing table and adds a route with hop-count=3D2, sq=3D2 and next-hope=3D=
2
>> Consider that topology changes at this point and n1 moves into communicat=
ion range of n0, gets connected to                 n0, and n2 leaves n0 comm=
unication range, gets disconnected from n0, which leads to network topology s=
hown in Fig1.b.
>> n0, which hasn=E2=80=99t received an =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D yet, resend t=
he =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message after increasing its sequence number to 3.=

>> n1 receives the new =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message, with sq=3D3, next-hop=
=3D0 and hop-count=3D1, since it=E2=80=99s a better route it would be added t=
o the routing table. Then n1 multicast the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message to=
 its neighbors, n2 and n3.
>> n2 evaluate the received message sent by n1 and adds a new route to its r=
outing table with sq=3D3, next-hop=3D1 and hop-count=3D2 since the sequence n=
umber of the received message is greater than the stored one.
>> At this point a loop has been formed between nodes n1 and n2.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Since we=E2=80=99ve moved to disallowing multiple Unconfirmed routes (in -=
14, which isn=E2=80=99t published yet), this one is resolved already as well=
.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> The reason we didn=E2=80=99t discuss this earlier on [manet] was that the=
 authors hadn=E2=80=99t submitted their paper yet (and I didn=E2=80=99t want=
 to leak their work). They=E2=80=99ve done so now, and will send us a link t=
o their paper once it=E2=80=99s available. I=E2=80=99m guessing it=E2=80=99l=
l take a while to be published properly, but it should be enough for for our=
 purposes for the paper to appear on arxiv.org for now=E2=80=A6
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>> Lotte
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --
>>=20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
_
>>=20
>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo=
w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>> www.baesystems.com/ai
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>>=20
>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: Charlie Perkins [mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net]=20
>> Sent: 01 March 2016 01:08
>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); manet
>> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> *** WARNING ***
>>=20
>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext=
ernal partner or the internet.
>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach=
ments or reply.
>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y=
ou receive, click here.
>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>=20
>> Hello Chris,
>>=20
>> On 1/19/2016 5:37 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote:
>>=20
>> And outside those 31, that we=E2=80=99re at this position with a suggesti=
on there=E2=80=99s possible looping (about which I have no idea) isn=E2=80=99=
t that comforting.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I hope your concerns have been resolved on this matter.  The paper mentio=
ned on the mailing list pointed out various ambiguities in RFC 3561 describe=
d how the ambiguities might be construed to install self-routes and, combine=
d with possible inconsistent choices for sequence number, loops could result=
.  But the email to the list several weeks ago indicated that these ambiguit=
ies do not exist in AODVv2.  The authors of that paper have expressed intere=
st in doing a similar analysis on AODVv2.
>>=20
>> Other discussion about routing loops has not identified routing loop prob=
lems in the existing specification.  Use of unconfirmed or invalid routes fo=
r routing might lead to errors, but that doesn't carry over to produce loops=
 in the route table.
>>=20
>> I'm looking for any other open issues outside of the Security Considerati=
ons which is being reworked according to recent comments but should be submi=
tted soon.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Charlie P.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> There=E2=80=99s also a lot of document to review. Which of course I haven=
=E2=80=99t done at this time. But my attention did alight on the IANA consid=
erations section, and I noted there that:
>>=20
>> - Not sure why the jump to 10 for message types, though I=E2=80=99m not o=
pposed.
>>=20
>> - The PATH_METRIC TLV can=E2=80=99t be type 10, that=E2=80=99s already ta=
ken. See IANA register.
>>=20
>> - We previously pointed out that CONT_SEQ_NUM (COMPLETE) already exists a=
nd does the job that SEQ_NUM is doing, so why allocate another TLV? (You cou=
ld avoid the necessity of repeating (COMPLETE) by simply commenting once and=
 thereafter omitting.)
>>=20
>> - Why the suggested skipping of types 12 to 14?
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --
>>=20
>> Christopher Dearlove
>> Senior Principal Engineer
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>> _________________________________________________________________________=
_
>>=20
>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo=
w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>> www.baesystems.com/ai
>>=20
>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>>=20
>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Victoria Merciec=
a
>> Sent: 18 January 2016 21:45
>> To: manet
>> Subject: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> *** WARNING ***
>>=20
>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext=
ernal partner or the internet.
>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach=
ments or reply.
>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y=
ou receive, click here.
>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.
>>=20
>> *** WARNING ***
>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> Hi all,
>>=20
>> We have just released the newest AODVv2 draft. The major update is the se=
paration of the AODVv2 route set from the RIB.
>>=20
>> Here are also responses to the comments received before Christmas. This s=
hould include all the points from Thomas Clausen regarding versions 11 and 1=
2, and also a couple of other points which have been brought up since. Apolo=
gies for the huge email. For issues that need further discussion, I have tri=
ed to include the main points of the discussion so far. Please feel free to c=
reate a separate thread for any further discussion.
>>=20
>> We are still looking into the loop conditions recently reported for AODV,=
 also still working on the text about security, and use of msg-hop-limit.
>>=20
>> Kind regards,
>>=20
>> Victoria.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 1. End-to-end / hop-by-hop acks - issue when a route is marked as confirm=
ed and valid when the link to the next hop is confirmed as bidirectional (bu=
t the links downstream have not yet been verified as bidirectional).
>>=20
>> AODVv2: The authors believe this is an issue which would not occur freque=
ntly, and would right itself.=20
>>=20
>> This only occurs for the route to OrigAddr. What needs to happen for this=
 to occur is that an intermediate node that takes part in the route discover=
y between OrigAddr and TargAddr coincidentally has packets to send to OrigAd=
dr in the time between confirming the link to its own next hop toward OrigAd=
dr is bidirectional, and the time taken for all other routers on the path to=
 confirm their next hops too. If the route is used to forward packets before=
 every other link in the path is confirmed as bidirectional, and the data pa=
ckets are forwarded faster than the RREP and any RREP_Acks, then yes they co=
uld be delivered to a router without a valid route to OrigAddr. Alternativel=
y if one of the links turns out to be unidirectional then the data packets w=
ill also arrive at a router without a valid route. In these cases, RERR mess=
ages will be generated toward the source of the traffic, the route to OrigAd=
dr will be deleted at routers back toward TargAddr, but if data packets are s=
till flowing from any source to OrigAddr, the route will be re-requested by t=
he router responsible for discovering routes for the source of the data.
>>=20
>> The changes required to make acknowledgements end-to-end would require a l=
ot more control traffic and be necessary for every route discovery and in al=
most all cases would be unnecessary.
>>=20
>> Text has been added to the draft in =E2=80=9CLocal Route State Changes=E2=
=80=9D to describe this.
>>=20
>> 2. Buffering
>> =EF=BB=BFThomas:
>> =E2=80=9CIt would seem that buffering, as specified, does not accomplish w=
hat=20
>> it states that it accomplishes: packets are (as you describe) still being=

>> sent while no route is available, and therefore will be dropped later.
>> =3D> Consequently, it seems that buffering is a futile exercise?=E2=80=9D=

>>=20
>> AODVv2: =EF=BB=BFPackets are buffered before a route exists. A router onl=
y begins sending them when it deems the route to be valid. In general, buffe=
ring is not futile.
>>=20
>> True, there is this case outlined above where the router could deem the r=
oute valid before the bidirectionality check has happened for each and every=
 hop. If the links chosen for the route are not all bidirectional, then yes,=
 any data packets forwarded along this route will end up being dropped at so=
me point on that path.=20
>> This case is caused by the RREP_Ack being hop-by-hop, and not caused by b=
uffering.
>>=20
>> Thomas: =EF=BB=BF
>> =E2=80=9CBuffers have huge impacts on TCP performance, and I doubt if the=
 issues on e.g. TCP are well enough understood by this WG (Bufferbloat was a=
n example of where people got it wrong, despite having extensive experience)=
.=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Packets will only be buffered while a route is requested. The TCP=
 packets buffered will be packets for session initialisation. The authors be=
lieve that buffering these will have a positive effect. Some references have=
 been suggested, listed here, the first of which has been included in the dr=
aft:
>> http://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodl=
i.pdf
>> Mobile Internetworking with IPv6: Concepts, Principles and Practices {Koo=
dli, Perkins}
>> disc.ece.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt
>> Analysis of TCP performance over mobile ad hoc networks http://dl.acm.org=
/citation.cfm?id=3D313540
>> Alternatively, we could remove the mention of TCP, and instead state that=
 buffering MAY be used for packets awaiting a route, but that implementation=
 and implications of this are out of scope for AODVv2.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 3. Use of msg-hop-limit and msg-hop-count:
>> Thomas:
>> But, either way, as according to your model messages are never forwarded,=
 but always are intended for receipt by a router which is a direct neighbor,=
 then a <msg-hop-limit> >1 (which applies to the message) seems inappropriat=
e.=20
>> Actually, according to that model, I would even say that receipt of a mes=
sage with a <msg-hop-count> >1 should be interpreted as a malfunction.
>> As you refer to RFC5444 appendix B, do note that Appendix B of RFC5444 (a=
nd, note the errata 4003) talks about:
>>       <msg-hop-limit> field, if present, contains the number of hops on w=
hich the message is allowed to travel before being discarded by a MANET rout=
er.  The <msg-hop-limit> is set by the message originator and is used to pre=
vent messages from endlessly circulating in a MANET.=20
>> Specifically =E2=80=9Cset by the message originator=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C=
number of hops on which the message is allowed to travel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 w=
ith your control messages traveling just one hop, I believe that setting <ms=
g-hop-limit> =3D 1 is correct.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Discussion is still needed here. We wonder if these fields are ne=
cessary at all for AODVv2. We were using them to limit the number of regener=
ations of a RREQ. However, the hop limit value needs to be large enough to a=
llow a RREQ from one side of the network to another. It might be the case th=
at using the hop limit, almost every router in the network would receive tha=
t RREQ anyway, and by using the redundancy check, we already stop RREQs from=
 circulating endlessly.
>>=20
>> 4. Abstract
>> Thomas:
>> =E2=80=9CI made the following comment, which still applies:
>> =E2=80=9CThis is a little over-stating the applicability: these statement=
s may be true in some scenarios (for example, when there are few concurrent t=
raffic flows, and therefore few routes to repair, and therefore few flooding=
 operations to contend for channel access). As a general statement, this las=
t sentence is incorrect=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> AODVv2: The text has been removed and the abstract now states: =E2=80=9C T=
he Ad Hoc On-demand Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing protocol is i=
ntended for use by mobile routers in wireless, multihop networks.  AODVv2 de=
termines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers within the network in an on-dem=
and fashion.=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> 5,9,12,13,20. Router Client
>> Thomas:=20
>> =E2=80=9CI made a comment previously that =E2=80=9CRouter client=E2=80=9D=
 is a poorly chosen term, and have proposed alternatives. I=E2=80=99ve seen s=
ome attempts on the list at rather than change the term, explain it =E2=80=94=
 some of which is in this document. The =E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=9D still tal=
ks about =E2=80=9Ca router=E2=80=A6one of its clients=E2=80=9D - which is no=
 less confusing than last time Iw went through it.
>> I reiterate, why not use =E2=80=9CLocal Attached Network Set=E2=80=9D, wh=
ich is the term used by other documents from this WG?=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> AODVv2: We already answered this suggestion on the MANET list and asked f=
or comments and suggestions, and no responses were received. We have defined=
 what we mean by Router Client, and the terminology has so far not changed. H=
owever, some alternatives have been suggested, so if you feel any of these a=
re more effective, please let us know:
>> =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2    Advertised IP Address: puts the emphasis on adverti=
sement rather than topological connection
>> =E2=80=A2    Accessible IP Address: puts the emphasis on accessibility th=
rough the particular router =E2=80=93 not bad
>> =E2=80=A2    Reduced Function Device [RFD]: doesn=E2=80=99t roll off the t=
ongue, but this is terminology used for L2R in IEEE 802 Wireless for a simil=
ar situation
>> =E2=80=A2    Accessible Device Address: adds some emphasis for the device=
 as well as the address
>> =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2    Stably Connected IP Address: nothing is permanent, o=
f course, but the router client set is thought to be relatively stable
>> =E2=80=A2    Topologically Connected IP address: ... suggests that a "top=
ological connection" is stable compared to wireless
>> =E2=80=A2    Administratively Assigned IP address: ... somehow does not c=
onnote the "otherness" of the router client devices.
>>=20
>> 6. Overview - adjacency
>> Thomas:=20
>> The term =E2=80=9Cconfirming adjacency=E2=80=9D is gone, and is now repla=
ced by =E2=80=9Cconfirming bidirectionality=E2=80=9D - which, alas, still so=
unds like there is some active monitoring (HELLO message exchange) going on.=
 Unless that is the case, then please be more specific here.
>> I note that the term adjacency is used through and through the document, b=
tw.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: The text has been updated to avoid the word adjacency. We do not b=
elieve the text implies active monitoring through HELLO messages.
>>=20
>> 7. Overview - forwarding plane
>> Thomas: I suggested in my last review: The overview must also include a p=
aragraph on the intersections between this protocol and the forwarding plane=
 =E2=80=94 this, as it is different (and more invasive) from that which is t=
ypically seen in routing protocols.
>> Specifically, as a reactive protocol, it is required (at least) that the f=
orwarding plane is modified :
>> 1) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when looking up a next hop for a data packet t=
o be forwarded, is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to permit that rout=
e discovery be launched;
>> 2) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when attempting to deliver a data packet to a=
 next hop, which was recorded in the routing table, is signalled to the AODV=
v2 process so as to permit that a route repair be initiated and/or a Route E=
rror be generated.
>> 3) A =E2=80=9Chit=E2=80=9D when looking up a next hop for a data packet t=
o be forwarded to a destination is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to p=
ermit maintenance of =E2=80=9Cactive route=E2=80=9D Route State, timers and s=
uch.
>> Note that these things are necessary to call out in the =E2=80=9Coverview=
=E2=80=9D and in the =E2=80=9Capplicability statement=E2=80=9D, both: it is n=
ot that they are negatives per se, but that they are important factors gover=
ning the applicability of this protocol: will a given platform permit such a=
ccess to the forwarding plane, for example? Important to understand if for t=
hat platform this protocol is apple
>> I see that this was not addressed in the overview, nor in the applicabili=
ty other than by a forward reference to section 6.4. While it is positive th=
at there is a section 6.4, this does not exonerate the overview and the appl=
icability statement for being honest about the requirements (notably to the p=
latform/os) that this protocol has for being applicable
>>=20
>> AODVv2: The Overview and the Applicability Statement now refer to these b=
asic requirements for the interaction with the forwarding plane. The Applica=
bility Statement also contains the reference to the later section which desc=
ribes this in more detail.
>>=20
>> 8. 7182 and security
>>=20
>> Thomas: I suggested in my last review: It is important to do more than th=
is: 7182 does only provide =E2=80=9Ccontainers=E2=80=9D for ICVs and timesta=
mps, and does not specify how to use them to obtain specific security proper=
ties. RFC7182 may be a tool that can be used, but how* that tool is used is w=
hat determines the security properties.
>> Therefore, saying that =E2=80=9Csecurity is dealt with by using RFC7182=E2=
=80=9D is either an incomplete statement, or is indicative of insufficient s=
ecurity considerations.=E2=80=9D
>> The actual sentence in the I-D has been changed, now it explicitly names t=
he two TLVs from 7182 that it uses. That is, alas, still not sufficient.
>> Making the aside that was discussed recently on the list, that (i) contro=
l messages are not forwarded, and that (ii) they are modified in transit, th=
e security/trust model is somewhat different from that of 7181 and consequen=
tly for what 7182 was initially written for. I think that  calling out the t=
rust model, and how 7182 actually is used here, might be what is called for.=

>> Continuing with the aside, this *especially* as the applicability stateme=
nt says: "Providing security for a reactive routing protocol can be difficul=
t=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> =EF=BB=BFOK, so assume that I understand regeneration as per my previous e=
mail, as meaning =E2=80=9Cgenerate a new message and send to my neighbors, b=
ased on what I learned when processing a received message=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
 just like any distance vector protocol does.
>> In that model, what you write makes sense: each originator of a control m=
essage (i.e., whoever generates or regenerates it) is free to include the in=
formation it desires, such as the 4 points you list above. No issues with th=
at.
>> However, and this joins what I pointed out in a previous email, you write=
 in the applicability statement: "Providing security for a reactive routing p=
rotocol can be difficult."
>> While we can discuss if the nature of =E2=80=9Creactive routing protocol=E2=
=80=9D generates particular difficulties, we certainly can agree that this p=
rotocol has the same =E2=80=9Cdifficulties=E2=80=9D as a distance vector pro=
tocol: routing topology information (by definition) not being exchanged end-=
to-end, but between neighbors (who do calculations and generate their own an=
nouncements =E2=80=94 regeneration, as you call it).=20
>> This means that a specific security model of transitive trust must be ass=
umed, no? I trust Victoria, therefore when Victoria says =E2=80=9CStan told m=
e=E2=80=9D then I trust that she actually verified that "it was indeed Stan w=
ho told her =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 and either way, I have no way of ve=
rifying?
>> I did not see the trust model / trust assumption discussed in the specifi=
cation (specifically not in applicability and in section 13, both of where i=
t should be called out), but I think that this is actually a crucial point t=
o get right, in order to approach developing the MTI security mechanisms.
>> Anyways, that observation actually contrasts strongly with what the appli=
cability statement then goes on to say, namely:
>>    AODVv2 provides for message integrity and security against replay
>>    attacks by using integrity check values, timestamps and sequence
>>    numbers, as described in Section 13.
>> This is true only in as much as messages are indeed exchanged between nei=
ghbors: when you =E2=80=9Cregenerate=E2=80=9D a message, i.e., generate a ne=
w message in response to receipt of a message, you generate brand new payloa=
d (but possibly including some of the data from the received message, of cou=
rse): thus, any ICVs =E2=80=9Cfrom farther away than the neighbor=E2=80=9D w=
ill be useless (or, if you zero out the parts that you change, these parts w=
ill not be protected).
>> The above sentence, quoted from the applicability statement, and that whi=
ch transpires from section 13, seems - certainly, absent the trust model ass=
umed - to suggest that end-to-end protection/validation is provided. But, th=
is is not the case.
>> Finally to the applicability statement, a question:
>> If security associations can be established, encryption can be used for A=
ODVv2 messages to ensure that only trusted routers participate in routing op=
erations.
>> What you want to say here is that =E2=80=9Cif all trusted routers have a s=
hared secret, then we=E2=80=99re able to use that shared secret to ignore no=
n-trusted routers=E2=80=9D, right?=20
>> While =E2=80=9Csecurity associations=E2=80=9D that do not pass through a s=
hared secret probably can be thought up, it=E2=80=99s not trivial and I did n=
ot find any discussion of that in the document?
>> Having, on the topic of security, re-read Section 13, which starts:
>>    This section describes various security considerations and potential
>>    avenues to secure AODVv2 routing. =20
>> While this is an honest description of what follows, I remain convinced t=
hat this is not sufficient. So let me ask as precisely as I can:
>> o what is the MTI security mechanism that a conformant implementation mus=
t provide? Specifically: - which are the processing steps (for example in se=
ction 7.2.1 and section 7.2.2 for RREP - and similarly for the other message=
 types) that define that security mechanism
>> o what protection is offered by that MTI security mechanism? And what rem=
ains vulnerable.
>> If this specification targets std.track, then it should include (reasonab=
ly solid, but definitely well specified) MTI security.
>>=20
>> Chris Dearlove:
>> =EF=BB=BFThere are two potential choices:
>>=20
>> - RREQ has an integrity check value to indicate that someone trusted crea=
ted it, if not necessarily the destination. That someone might be identifiab=
le or not.
>> - RREQ has a signature that indicates that the destination created it.
>>=20
>> Unfortunately, an RREQ that changes as it is forwarded (aggregating data o=
f any sort) makes the second option tricky, unless there=E2=80=99s some sort=
 of aggregating signature as it is forwarded. But I=E2=80=99m not an expert o=
n the latter.
>>=20
>> The most trivial case of the former is simply that everyone trusted has a=
 single shared key. That has obvious issues =E2=80=93 although it was good e=
nough that embodied as RFC 7183 we could get 7181 through the system (as a =E2=
=80=9Cmust implement, do not need to use=E2=80=9D minimal case). Alternative=
ly something identity-based (e.g. draft-ietf-manet-ibs) could be used, so yo=
u know who created the message you received, but you are relying on a chain o=
f trust, hop by hop. At which point you might as well just sign packets (see=
 RFC 7182).
>>=20
>> But in even the weakest case (the single shared key used hop by hop) ther=
e has to be a failure for things to go wrong - either loss of key (in which c=
ase all bets are off) or suborning one router (who can do quite a lot of dam=
age).
>>=20
>> I haven't read the latest AODVv2 draft yet, but this sort of thing should=
 be described in its security considerations - the previous draft though did=
n't discuss this as far as I                           recall.
>>=20
>> Chris Dearlove:
>> =EF=BB=BFIf you go down this route of assuming transitive trust, then you=
 might as well use 7182=E2=80=99s packet ICV and timestamp rather than messa=
ge ICV and timestamp.
>> =20
>> There is a complication (mostly one of presentation) that the 5444 multip=
lexer (rather than AODVv2) needs to do this, at least for packets containing=
 AODVv2 messages (but at which point, probably all 5444 packets). So you eit=
her, depending on your point of view, need to request it to do that, or (adm=
inistratively) decline to operate except over a 5444 multiplexer that is doi=
ng this.
>> =20
>> The advantage is one of saved space and time when packets contain more th=
an one message. Plus slightly better protection (hop count and limit are cov=
ered) but which probably doesn=E2=80=99t matter here.
>> =20
>> If messages are changed/replaced on a one-to-one basis as forwarded, then=
 the only solutions I can see are hop by hop transitive trust (packets or me=
ssages per hop), or something complicated involving aggregation and knowledg=
e of changes. But the latter would be a research task to develop, so let=E2=80=
=99s not try that.
>>=20
>> Jiazi Yi:
>> I=EF=BB=BF agree with Chris and Thomas on their concerns on the hop-by-ho=
p security issue.=20
>> This is very different from classical DV protocol, in which the vector in=
formation is designed to be exchanged between neighbours.=20
>> In AODVv2, the RREQ/RREP/RERR are to be forwarded through multiple hops. A=
 router can sign a message that isn't actually initialised by itself -- this=
 is, at least, against intuition.=20
>> This can be an issue if we have compromised routers in the network. Of co=
urse, a compromised router is a problem for every protocol, like OLSRv2. But=
 in OLSRv2, a compromised router can only speak on behalf of itself -- howev=
er, in AODVv2, a compromised/mis-configured router can pretend to be any oth=
er router (for example, generate RREQ messages using another address as     =
                      OrigAddr).  The consequence will be much more serious i=
f that happens.=20
>>=20
>> AODVv2: This is not yet addressed.
>>=20
>> 9. Terminology - host, routers, router clients:=20
>>=20
>> Thomas: My last review suggested:
>> =E2=80=9CThis has been brought up on the list several times in the past, w=
ithout having been addressed.
>> There are =E2=80=9Chosts=E2=80=9D and there are =E2=80=9Crouters=E2=80=9D=
 =E2=80=94 whose roles are well defined. Node=E2=80=9D not so much =E2=80=94=
 which is clear from looking at the definition here: =E2=80=9Ceither AODVv2 r=
outers or router clients=E2=80=9D (with =E2=80=9Crouter clients=E2=80=9D bei=
ng defined as =E2=80=9Can AODVv2 router is also its own router client=E2=80=9D=
).
>>=20
>> This is very much related to the use of =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D, a=
nd both that term, and =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D indicative that some clarity i=
s needed here.
>>=20
>> All a router cares about is =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D. If that address=
 is of a network, or a router, or an interface (and, if said interface is in=
stalled in a router or a host) doesn=E2=80=99t matter.
>>=20
>> So, =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D is something that the routing protocol s=
hould care about finding paths to. Which means that each address that should=
 be made reachable by the routing protocol should be advertised by (at least=
) one router in the network.
>>=20
>> One way of doing that would be to simply talk about =E2=80=9CAttached Net=
works=E2=80=9D as is done in RFC7181, wherein an address included in the =E2=
=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D is advertised by an OLSRv2 router....in t=
his case, the equivalent would be =E2=80=9Cfor each address in the Attached N=
etwork Set of an AODVv2 router the router MUST respond authoritatively to a R=
REQ, and MUST maintain the corresponding sequence number=E2=80=9D.
>> The text, as it currently is, is really hard to read, and a re-edit along=
 these lines would go a long way.=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> I note that the terms =E2=80=9CNode=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=
=80=9D are still used, in their original form, and that other than some slig=
ht wordsmithing this comment has not been addressed in the document.
>>=20
>> I reiterate that the need to use router, host, node, and router client in=
 and by itself should be an indicator that tightening up of terminology is r=
equired.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: See 5. The use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D has been addressed.
>>=20
>> 10. Terminology and elsewhere - address
>> Thomas: I made the following comment to Routable Unicast IP Address:
>> =E2=80=9CAre there any technical reason why not simply *any* address coul=
d be considered by the routing protocol?
>> My understanding, but correct me if I am wrong, is that all that is requi=
red is that all interfaces in a given AODVv2 routing domain has an unique ad=
dress.
>> That some of these addresses (by an IP addressing architecture document) h=
as special semantics associated (such as are link locals, or are for private=
 use, or are for example use only, or are for multicast) is out of scope her=
e?
>> I see nothing has changed on the above, so let me be more explicit: the r=
outing protocol itself probably) should not care about what kind of addresse=
s are filled into it. Is an 192.16./16 address appropriate? Not across the i=
nternet, but it may be in somebody=E2=80=99s private deployments. Should the=
 routing protocol be =E2=80=9Caddress police=E2=80=9D and is implementation o=
f a =E2=80=9CI refuse to route these addresses=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D a requireme=
nt for claiming conformance? Suggest simply stating what the requirements ar=
e under which the routing protocol will work =E2=80=94 and leave =E2=80=9Cad=
dress assignment politics=E2=80=9D aside.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: We ask for clarification on this issue. We use the phrase =E2=80=9C=
routable and unicast=E2=80=9D in the draft with respect to OrigAddr and Targ=
Addr. We dont mean to exclude                           addresses from the p=
rivate address ranges. But we dont want to request routes for multicast, ind=
eterminate, link-local, or loopback addresses. This is not about router inte=
rface addresses which are used for AODVv2.
>>=20
>> 11. Multiple interfaces with the same IP address, 6621 implications
>>=20
>> Thomas: I also continued:
>> Now, with that being said also, the WG wanted that RFC7181 supports not j=
ust multiple interfaces, but also the same address used on multiple interfac=
es of the same router. There                           were good reasons for=
 that, and while it was not trivial to implement, it turned out to be the ri=
ght thing to support. If there are technical reasons why this is not support=
ed in                           AODVv2 (for example, if this cannot be made w=
ork because of <reason>) then that should be called out in the applicability=
 statement also?
>> Conversely, if it is possible in AODVv2, then I do not believe that it is=
 clearly specified how (at least, in the =E2=80=9Cnaive=E2=80=9D on paper ex=
amples I drew up, something ended up not working). So either the protocol as=
-is does not support it (but could be made to?) or it is supported (but just=
 need to be spelled out), or is not possible (and need to be disclaimed in t=
he applicability statement).
>> Stan Ratliff was a driving force in holding the WG=E2=80=99s collective f=
eet to the fire in getting this support included in RFC7181, and would likel=
y be the right person to consult on this matter?
>> I actually have not seen changes, or comments, on this. In OLSRv2, the WG=
 was making it a strong requirement that it should be possible to use the sa=
me IP address on different interfaces of a router. It was somewhat tedious t=
o design around, but it was worked out, and the conditions under which that w=
as possible were defined and documented.
>> I would like to see the same done for this protocol.
>> I also note that this is not unrelated to RFC6621-discussions. For exampl=
e, when selecting S-MPRs on a multi-interface and multi-address-per-interfac=
e router, care must be taken least things won=E2=80=99t work. So, if (and th=
is links back to previous mails) RFC6621 is a requirement or desire for this=
 protocol, then there are some considerations required here.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: We have removed references to RFC 6621.
>> Initial thoughts on this topic of multiple interfaces using the same IP a=
ddress, is that this wouldn=E2=80=99t cause a problem, if the router has onl=
y one sequence number. However, this is up for further discussion.
>>=20
>> 12. Interfaces configured as router clients
>>=20
>> Thomas: I see that the definition of =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D has c=
hanged to be
>> =E2=80=9CAn address or address range=E2=80=A6the AODVv2 router=E2=80=99s i=
nterface addresses are also configured as router clients=E2=80=9D
>> Better than before, but still missing the target. The term =E2=80=9CRoute=
r Client=E2=80=9D is, as I indicated numerous times before, odd.
>> But the second part of the sentence, does that mean (what it says) that t=
he interfaces must be configured specially, so as to be able to be =E2=80=9C=
router clients=E2=80=9D? That can=E2=80=99t be true.
>> What you likely mean is:
>> An AODVv2 router is configured so as to consider its own interfaces as pa=
rt of the locally attached network set=E2=80=9D ?
>> You configure the router, right? No special =E2=80=9Cinterface configurat=
ion properties=E2=80=9D are required for an interface to be announcable by  a=
n AODVv2 router? (And, getting rid of                           node would a=
ctually make the definition shorter and nicer)
>>=20
>> AODVv2: The wording we use says: "The IP Addresses of the router's interf=
aces will appear in the Router Client Table." and in the Terminology: "The A=
ODVv2 router's interface addresses are also configured as Router Clients." B=
oth statements say that =E2=80=98interface addresses are configured as route=
r clients=E2=80=99 ...we are not sure why this is misunderstood. We have a r=
outer client list, and the AODVv2 router=E2=80=99s interface addresses are i=
ncluded in this list. The interface itself doesn=E2=80=99t have special =E2=80=
=9Cinterface configuration properties=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>> 13 - more on router clients
>> Thomas: Now, snipping out from the applicability statement:
>> "Multi-homing of an IP address is not supported by AODVv2, and therefore a=
 Router Client, i.e. an IP Address,  =E2=80=A6 "
>> =E2=80=A6evidence to there being some redundant terminology here to weed a=
way.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: That was there as a reminder that a router client is based on IP a=
ddress, even though the device with that IP address may have other IP addres=
ses too. It=E2=80=99s the IP address that is the router client, not the devi=
ce as a whole with its entire collection of configured IP addresses. One IP a=
ddress of that device might be configured as a router client on one router, a=
nd a different IP address of that device could be configured as a router cli=
ent on another router. The IP addresses would seem to AODVv2 to be on differ=
ent devices.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 14. data elements
>>=20
>> Thomas: The below is a little bit of a                           meta-com=
ment, I am not quite sure what I think here. The definitions for Target Node=
 and such were confusing before. They still are, somewhat.
>> I think that it may be because the definitions now used are simply copy-p=
asted out from the tables in the previous version, for example:
>>    =E2=80=9CAn AODVv2 Data Element containing the destination address of t=
he IP packet triggering route discovery.=E2=80=9D
>> OK, I can trace back and see that a Data Element is something that exists=
 inside a protocol message. To me, however, that=E2=80=99s not really genera=
l terminology as such, but part of the specification of a packet format - or=
 rather, it is the notation that you use when describing an algorithm. By th=
e way, why are some notations in CamelCase whereas others have a space in th=
em, e.g. =E2=80=9CTarget Node=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CTargMetric=E2=80=9D, bot=
h of which are Data Elements? Would be good with a consistent approach here.=

>> I *think* that it would be better to take all those =E2=80=9CData Element=
=E2=80=9D bits and move to a separate section (or subsection) to the termino=
logy, and then keep all the =E2=80=9Cother stuff=E2=80=9D (Neighbor, =E2=80=A6=
) in its own section.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Your comment from draft 11 where we already had data elements in a=
 separate table, says:
>> "Also suggest abolishing this table and folding the definitions in with t=
he other definitions in the terminology section."
>> We have updated to not refer so heavily to the term Data Element. All the=
 terms are described in the Terminology section. Those in CamelCase are used=
 as message fields.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 15. Route =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D
>> Thomas:
>> I made a comment: Second, should =E2=80=9Cvalid route=E2=80=9D not be qua=
lified by =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D?=E2=80=9D
>> Which was not addressed.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Every route is to a specific                           address...=
the address is specified by Route.Address and Route.PrefixLength.
>> Do you mean that routes are to the address TargAddr or OrigAddr and there=
fore to a specific host address rather than to a network prefix? This is not=
 the case. Prefix Length is                           included in AODVv2 mes=
sages so that the route learned from the message represents the prefix which=
 OrigAddr or TargAddr resides on (if the router client entry corresponding t=
o OrigAddr at RREQ_Gen or TargAddr at RREP_Gen is configured with a prefix l=
ength). e.g. OrigAddr is 10.0.0.1 but the corresponding router client entry a=
t RREQ_Gen could be 10.0.0.0/8. So when constructing the RREQ you include a p=
refix length of 8, and when receiving the RREQ and learning the route to Ori=
gAddr, you can install a route to 10.0.0.0/8.  Text has been updated to make=
 this more obvious.
>>=20
>> 16. unreachable address
>>=20
>> Thomas: I also made a comment on "Unreachable Address=E2=80=9D - I am gla=
d I did, because I apparently had a different understanding than what was in=
tended. I now see that an Unreachable Address by definition is an address li=
sted in a RERR message, and not the same as an address to which no route has=
 yet  been discovered? If yes, then please use a different term, such as    =
                       FormerlyReachableAddress=E2=80=9D or something of the=
 sort?
>>=20
>> AODVv2: "Formerly reachable" is inaccurate... we send a RERR if another r=
outer forwards a packet via us, and we dont have a route, not just when we l=
ose a route. We might never have had a route, or might never have had a vali=
d route, so the address may not have been "formerly reachable". Also, I thin=
k "FormerlyReachableAddress" is a really ugly term. Unreachable means "we do=
n=E2=80=99t have a route and we aren=E2=80=99t going to request one" or "we l=
ost this route" (depending on why the RERR is being sent). It doesn=E2=80=99=
t mean "we didn=E2=80=99t request one yet", and it would be wrong to class a=
n address as unreachable because we hadn=E2=80=99t requested a route for it y=
et, that is, assuming it=E2=80=99s configured as a router client.=20
>>=20
>> If a better term is suggested we could consider changing but at the momen=
t we have kept =E2=80=9CUnreachable Address=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 17. Applicability - multiple interfaces same address, 6621 again
>>=20
>> Thomas: Applicability statement: First, I would like to recognize the eff=
orts made to improve this since last review. Thanks
>> Second, the document states: "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple inter=
faces, as long as each interface configured for AODVv2 has a unicast IP addr=
ess.  A router may use the same IP address on multiple interfaces.  Address a=
ssignment procedures are out of scope for AODVv2.=E2=80=9D
>> Is that true? Granted, I have not worked this through in detail, but I ca=
n present a counter-example: the use of RFC6621 means that there certainly a=
re some constraints that must be respected least various flooding optimizati=
ons may not work.
>> Secondly, if the multiple-interfaces-with-same-address are on the same L2=
, and this is what I have not worked through, are there any situations that w=
ill not work?
>> The immediately previous version of this specification read:
>> "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple interfaces, as long as each interf=
ace configured for AODVv2 has its own unicast routable IP address"
>> So what changed that means that each interface no longer needs its *own* u=
nicast address?
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Well, based on previous questions on this, we talked it through a=
nd decided there shouldn=E2=80=99t be an issue if different interfaces of a r=
outer used the same IP address. Note that we changed AODVv2 so that there is=
 one sequence number per router. No longer can a router use different sequen=
ce numbers on different interfaces. If an RREQ went out of two interfaces us=
ing the same address, we worked it through and decided the request would be p=
rocessed correctly.=20
>> Also, text referring to RFC 6621 has been removed.
>>=20
>> 18. Applicability and appendix - multihoming
>>=20
>> Thomas: I pointed out to the Applicability Statement:
>> I think that appendix B needs to be removed. Essentially, it makes claims=
 that it is possible to do multi-homing =E2=80=94 but neither specifies how i=
t is done, nor gives pointers to documents that justify the claim.
>> AODVv2 does not support multi-homing =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s clear, and i=
t is fine that it is called out here. Thank you for that.
>> Now, with that being said, I am torn between being satisfied that it is c=
alled out on one hand, and wanting to have =E2=80=9Cmulti homing=E2=80=9D on=
 the other hand. RFC7181 supports multi-homing, FWIW.
>> I believe that this also would merit some explicit discussion by the WG, i=
n order to understand if this design decision is acceptable?
>> I see that Appendix B still is in the document, and I do not recall havin=
g seen this discussed on the mailing list. Simply removing the reference fro=
m the Applicability Statement to Appendix B does not address the issue that I=
 raised in my previous review.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Appendix has been removed and may appear in a future informationa=
l document.
>>=20
>> 19. interfaces list - use of =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> Thomas: To 4.1, I made the following comment:
>> "Is this a should, or a SHOULD? If the latter, should it be a MUST?
>> In general, there are a lot of such =E2=80=9Cmaybe normative language=E2=80=
=9D through the document, and I would much like to see an editorial pass =E2=
=80=94                           essentially all may/should/ must and friend=
s carefully evaluated as if they should become 2119-terms, and ... more impo=
rtantly (it has been called out before, fwiw) quite a bit of should/SHOULD w=
hich ought to be transformed into MUST.
>> Generally, aiming for a very a low number of SHOULD is a good design metr=
ic for a document=E2=80=9D
>> Aside from the general comment on                           2119-language=
, why is this a SHOULD?
>>=20
>> AODVv2: We changed this instance to a MUST and will be checking for =E2=80=
=9Cmaybe normative language=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 20. Router client - Local Attached Network Set
>>=20
>> Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:
>> As indicated earlier, I believe that the term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=
=9D is ill chosen. I believe that it is more appropriately an =E2=80=9CAttac=
hed Network                           Set=E2=80=9D since =E2=80=94 as indica=
ted previously =E2=80=94 the term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D is ambiguo=
us. I am pleased to see, though, that this =E2=80=9CRouter Client List=E2=80=
=9D in reality is an =E2=80=9CAttached                           Network Set=
=E2=80=9D and so that change should be (relatively) easy.
>> The above comment still is applicable to this revision,
>>=20
>> AODVv2: See 5,9,12,13.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 21. Subnet
>> Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:
>> Also, I recommend to not say =E2=80=9Csubnet=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 how about=
 rephrasing to =E2=80=9CIf a prefix is included in the attached network set o=
f an AODVv2                           router, then that AODVv2 router MUST p=
rovide connectivity for, i.e. answer to RREQs and maintain sequence numbers f=
or, all addresses from within that prefix.=E2=80=9D
>> I note that while the term has been removed from section 4, there=E2=80=99=
re 4 lingering instances of this term in the document, that could easily be r=
emoved.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: All mentions of "subnet" were in the ENAR section. They have been=
 updated to say network, or "networks attached to the routers"
>>=20
>>=20
>> 22. relocating router client
>>=20
>> Thomas: I Also made a comment about Appendix B in my previous review, whi=
ch is referenced here. That comment still applies.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Moved into main draft.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 23. Neighbor Monitoring
>>=20
>> Thomas: To Section 4.3, I noticed:
>> Does section 6.2 describe how to monitor an established adjacency only, o=
r how to discover neighbouring AODVv2 routers? Looking in 6.2, I see
>> =E2=80=9CNot every pair of neighboring routers will necessarily form an a=
djacency,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 so it likely isn=E2=80=99t 6.2 that tells me ho=
w to maintain this table?
>> In short, =E2=80=9CA neighbour table MUST be maintained=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
 where can I find information on how to do this?
>> Section 6.2 states:
>> =E2=80=9CThe default approach for monitoring bidirectional connectivity t=
o the next hop toward OrigAddr is to request acknowledgement of Route Reply m=
essages.=E2=80=9D
>> That certainly will tell me if a link over which an RREP is sent is bi-di=
rectional, but will not maintain a =E2=80=9Cneighbor table=E2=80=9D.
>> So how is this done? Or, is the =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=9D not supp=
osed to contain the complete set of neighbours? What information =E2=80=9C..=
.MUST be maintained=E2=80=9D then, in this table?
>> This is very unclear, I would not know how to implement a mechanism that p=
opulates this =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=9D with the needed information h=
ere.
>> I see no (relevant) changes to 6.2 nor to 4.3 so I assume that this comme=
nt has not been addressed
>>=20
>> AODVv2: A new section was added to show how to update the neighbour table=
. There have also been updates to this entire section since version 12.
>>=20
>> 24.     pseudo-code
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> I am throwing this in here, as I am sure that I commented on that in the p=
revious review, but I do not see that addressed: is Appendix C normative, or=
 not? It represents =E2=80=9C a second specification of the protocol, in a d=
ifferent language=E2=80=9D from the main part of the specification. I have n=
ot walked through and made 200% sure that both are perfectly aligned and tha=
t there are no ambiguities, but having                           two differe=
nt specifications of a protocol is a recipe for disaster.  Please either mak=
e 2000% sure that they are specifying the same thing without ambiguities, or=
 remove one.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Removed - maybe to include in an informational document in future=
.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 25. seqnum as 16 bit unsigned integer
>>=20
>> Thomas: To section 4.4, I wrote:
>> "would like to nit-pick that: the router can maintain this sequence numbe=
r in whatever format it pleases =E2=80=94 but, when it includes it in contro=
l messages, it must be representable in a specified format, respecting certa=
in rules.=E2=80=9D
>> I see that there were no changes following this comment.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Why store it as anything other than what it needs to be when it g=
oes into a message? However, we now state "MUST report its own sequence numb=
er as a 16 bit....whenever it creates a RREQ or RREP message".
>>=20
>>=20
>> 26. multiple seqnums?
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> To section 4.4 I asked for clarification as to if sequence numbers were p=
er interface or per router, as the specification was unclear on that. The wo=
rds has changed, but it still is unclear: how many sequence numbers does a r=
outer maintain? One? One per interface?
>>=20
>> AODVv2: We tried to start discussion on that point, and in the meantime w=
e reverted to having 1 seqnum per router. We think the text is clear... we r=
efer to "the routers sequence number" or "its sequence number" - never hinti=
ng that there could be multiple seqnums per router (as far as I'm aware).
>>=20
>>=20
>> 27. sets/lists/tables
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> In my previous review, I expressed that it would be preferential to use =E2=
=80=9Ca notation of Sets=E2=80=9D rather than tables. I see that this has no=
t changed.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: You preferred sets rather than lists in your previous review...an=
d explained our reasoning for this in responses to the MANET list, and we di=
d not receive further comments.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 28. use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> I made a comment on node and address, let me pick this up again. The foll=
owing:
>> RteMsg.OrigAddr
>> An IP address of the node which requires the route, i.e., the source addr=
ess of the IP packet triggering the route request.
>> would be more compact and clear if getting rid of the term =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=
=80=9D and said:
>> RteMsg.OrigAddr
>> The source address of the IP packet triggering the route request.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Change made as suggested.
>>=20
>> 29. route table/rib/routing set
>>=20
>> Thomas: To section 4.6, and I (and others) have commented on this before:=

>> All AODVv2 routers MUST maintain a route table.  The route table entry is=
 a conceptual data structure.  Implementations MAY use any internal represen=
tation but MUST contain the following information:
>> In order to avoid confusion, rename this to =E2=80=9CRouting Information B=
ase=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CRouting Set=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a Routing Table is a=
n operating system construct, whereon operations directly influence packet f=
orwarding. What you are defining here is a RIB/an RS.
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Done in version 13.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 30. rreq for prefix, use of =E2=80=9Cip address=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cadd=
ress"
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> The confusion that I pointed out in my previous review on =E2=80=9CIP add=
ress=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CAddress=E2=80=9D being used a bit haphazardly per=
sists, fwiw. It makes me think, can a router send an RREQ for a prefix?
>>=20
>> AODVv2: See also #15. RREQ_Gen can include the prefix associated with Ori=
gAddr by adding a prefix length to the message, the prefix length associated=
 with the router client entry corresponding to OrigAddr. So all routers whic=
h receive it can learn a route to the prefix on which OrigAddr resides. But f=
or TargAddr... the RREQ only has one target IP address - the destination IP a=
ddress of the packet requiring the route... so what prefix length would it u=
se? The RREQ requests a route to a single IP address. However, when the RREP=
 is created, RREP_Gen should include the prefix length associated with the r=
outer client entry for TargAddr. So all routers which receive this RREP lear=
n a route to the prefix TargAddr is part of (if the router client entry is c=
onfigured with a prefix length). The text has been updated to make this more=
 obvious.
>>=20
>>=20
>> 31. next hop ip address wording
>>=20
>> Thomas:
>> I also called this out in my previous review as incorrect, and despite wo=
rdsmithing it still is:
>>=20
>>         Route.NextHop
>>               The source IP address of the message advertising the route t=
o
>>               Route.Address, i.e. an IP address of the AODVv2 router used=
 for
>>               the next hop on the path toward Route.Address.
>>=20
>> If that =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D is an RFC5444 entity, then it does to h=
ave a =E2=80=9Csource IP Address=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 the encapsulating IP dat=
agram containing the packet containing the message does. And the message MAY=
 have an Originator Address
>>=20
>> AODVv2: Updated to say =E2=80=9Cthe source IP address of the IP packet co=
ntaining the message advertising...=E2=80=9D
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ********************************************************************
>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>> ********************************************************************
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>> =20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
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>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--Apple-Mail-A922C76D-BA11-4AE6-86AB-1E7178146A49
Content-Type: text/html;
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><span></span></div><div><meta http-equ=
iv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">You said that the paper h=
adn't identified a loop. If you'd stopped there, that would have been fine. I=
 think I can see where they were assuming rather strange behaviour.</span></=
div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></spa=
n></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">But y=
ou then went on to say "Other discussion about routing loops has not identif=
ied routing loop problems in the existing specification." That goes further a=
nd indicates no other discussion about loops. But Lotte has just said that t=
here was other discussion.&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"background-color: rgba=
(255, 255, 255, 0);">More, she says two loops were identified (and now fixed=
).</span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);=
"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,=
 0);">In addition, you're now saying that unconfirmed routes can't form a lo=
op. That may be so, as I said I haven't considered the case. But Lotte just s=
aid there were two loops that needed fixing.</span></div><div><span style=3D=
"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></span></div><div><span styl=
e=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The problem is that the stat=
ements the authors are making are contradictory. And that leads to a lack of=
 confidence.</span></div><br>--&nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><div><a h=
ref=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com=
</a></div></div><div><br><div><br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</di=
v><div><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlov=
e@gmail.com</a> (iPhone)</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.c=
o.uk">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a> (home)</div></div>On 16 Mar 2016, at 2=
0:32, Charlie Perkins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">c=
harles.perkins@earthlink.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
 =20
 =20
    <br>
    Hello Chris,<br>
    <br>
    I stand by my statement.&nbsp; The cited paper did not identify a loop.&=
nbsp;
    Most importantly, the crucial part about route looping being
    prevented by sequence number still stands.&nbsp; I also point out that
    the authors of that paper were constructive and complimentary to the
    clarity of the AODVv2 specification.&nbsp; I truly hope we can work
    together with them to further prove the correctness of the protocol.<br>=

    <br>
    Regarding the situation with unconfirmed routes, please not that
    unconfirmed routes can never be part of a routing loop because they
    don't carry data.<br>
    <br>
    Regarding the off-list discussion, it is our online equivalent of a
    hallway discussion, and a manageable, constructive environment for
    us to produce responsive resolutions to the comments from you and
    others.&nbsp; I hope we will see the rest of your comments soon because
    we want to resolve them as soon as possible.&nbsp; We were honor-bound t=
o
    not disclose private information to the list, but as you can see we
    also work hard to resolve privately submitted comments.<br>
    <br>
    Regards,<br>
    Charlie P.<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 3/16/2016 10:22 AM, Dearlove,
      Christopher (UK) wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote cite=3D"mid:B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D9237C4D5@GLKXM00=
02V.GREENLNK.net" type=3D"cite">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Context-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-=
8">
      <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 14 (filtered
        medium)">
      <div class=3D"WordSection1">
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (=
I
            hope to find time - but that=E2=80=99s true of too many things, w=
ith
            DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>But we have a loop, a pretty
            fundamental problem in a routing algorithm, being discussed
            by the authors off-list, while in parallel assuring the list
            that =E2=80=9COther discussion about routing loops has not
            identified routing loop problems in the existing
            specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain below).</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I think we have a real problem with
            what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to Proposed Standard soon, in
            terms of process and confidence.</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>(I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to eve=
n
            write up comments on the perhaps one third of the draft I
            have read through yet.)</span></p>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span>--
              </span></b></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span>Christopher Dearlove<br>
                Senior Principal Engineer<br>
                BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
              </span></b><b><span>__________________________________________=
________________________________<br>
              </span></b><span><br>
            </span><b><span>T</span></b><span>: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194 &nb=
sp;| &nbsp;<b>E:
              </b><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@=
baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br>
            </span><span><br>
            </span><span>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford
              Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br>
              <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/=
ai"><span>www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
              Limited<br>
              Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</span></p>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Registered Office: Surrey Research
              Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span></p>
        </div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><=
span lang=3D"EN-US"> Lotte Steenbrink
                [<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:lotte.ste=
enbrink@fu-berlin.de">mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>]
                <br>
                <b>Sent:</b> 16 March 2016 17:13<br>
                <b>To:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
                <b>Cc:</b> Charlie Perkins; manet<br>
                <b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent
                comments</span></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span>*** WARNING ***</span></b></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">
              <em><span>This message originates from outside our
                  organisation, either from an external partner or the
                  internet.</span></em><i><span><br>
                  <em><span>Consider carefully whether you should click
                      on any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></e=
m><br>
                  <em><span>For information regarding </span>
                  </em></span></i><strong><i><span>Red Flags</span></i></str=
ong><em><span>
                  that you can look out for in emails you receive, click
                  <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://intranet.ent.ba=
esystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf">here</=
a>.</span></em><i><span><br>
                  <em><span>If you feel the email is suspicious, please
                      follow
                      <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://intranet.en=
t.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Su=
spicious%20Emails.pdf">this
                        process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span></span></p>=

          </div>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Christopher,</p>
        </div>
        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        <div>
          <blockquote>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Am 02.03.2016 um 11:36 schrieb
                Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" h=
ref=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</=
a>&gt;:</p>
            </div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>My concerns have been that
                    your co-authors have continued to discuss whether
                    looping could occur since you published to the list
                    saying all was well. (An issue to do with multiple
                    unconfirmed routes.) Maybe that=E2=80=99s a problem, may=
be
                    it isn=E2=80=99t. But it lacks transparency, because it
                    hasn=E2=80=99t been discussed here.</span></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The loop possibility you=E2=80=99re refer=
ring
              to was a different one than the one discussed by Charlie.
              We=E2=80=99ve been contacted by researchers who are model chec=
king
              MANET protocols to see if they permit any unwanted
              behaviour. They=E2=80=99ve used AODVv2 as a case study for the=

              framework they=E2=80=99ve implemented to do this, and they=E2=80=
=99ve
              found the following loop:</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;mime-attachment.jpg&gt;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. n2 initiates a route discovery
              procedure for destination n3 by broadcasting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=
=80=9D
              message.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. n1 and n4 upon receiving the =E2=80=9C=
rreq=E2=80=9D
              message, add a route to their routing tables towards n2
              and store n2 as their next hop. Since it is the first time
              that these nodes have received a message from n2, the
              neighbor state of n2 is set to unconfirmed. Therefore, the
              route state is unconfirmed.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. As n1 and n4 are not the intended
              destination of the route request, they rebroadcast the
              =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D=
 message sent
              by n4 and since the route to n2 is unconfirmed it adds n4
              as new next hop to n2.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">5. n4 also adds n1 as the new next hop
              towards n2 after processing the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D sent by=
 node1. At
              this point a loop is formed between n1 and n4 but not used
              yet.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">6. n3 receives the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D=
 message sent
              by n1 and since it is the destination, it sends a =E2=80=9Crre=
p=E2=80=9D
              message towards n1.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">7. n2 moves out of n1 and n4
              communication range.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">8. n1 receives the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D=
 message sent
              by n3 and as the route state towards n2 is unconfirmed it
              multicasts the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D message to the existing n=
ext hops,
              n2 and n4. Since n4 is adjacent to n1, it receives the
              message and then sends an ack to n1. Therefore, n1 sets
              the neighbor state of n4 to confirm and subsequently the
              route state towards n2 to valid. Then expunge the next hop
              n2 which has not received an ack from.<span></span></p>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">9. n4 by receiving the =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=
=9D message
              from n1 multicasts it to its next hops towards n1 and n2,<br i=
d=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1450131411997_2543">
              and similar to n1 it updates its routing table by
              validating n1 as its next hop to n2. At this point, a loop
              between n1 and n4 becomes valid.<span></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>In response to these findings,
                we've changed&nbsp;6.7.1. &nbsp;Evaluating Route Information=
 in
                -13,&nbsp;so that LoopFree() is *always* considered before
                adding a new route, even if all known routes to date are
                Unconfirmed.</span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Following up, they=E2=80=99ve found=

                another loop in -13:</span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;mime-attachment.jpg&gt;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <ol start=3D"1" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14504" type=3D"=
1">
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14773=
">
                At first nodes are connected to each other as shown in
                Fig1.a.<span></span></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14563=
">
                n0 initiates a route discovery procedure for destination
                n3 by multicasting a =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message to n2 wi=
th sq=3D2.<span></span></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14565=
">
                n2 after updating its routing table, multicast the
                =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D to its neighbors, n1 and n3.<span></s=
pan></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14503=
">
                n1 upon receiving the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message sent by=
 n2 updates
                its routing table and adds a route with hop-count=3D2,
                sq=3D2 and next-hope=3D2<span></span></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14561=
">
                Consider that topology changes at this point and n1
                moves into communication range of n0, gets connected to
                n0, and n2 leaves n0 communication range, gets
                disconnected from n0, which leads to network topology
                shown in Fig1.b.<span></span></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14536=
">
                n0, which hasn=E2=80=99t received an =E2=80=9Crrep=E2=80=9D y=
et, resend the
                =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message after increasing its sequence=
 number to
                3.<span></span></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14538=
">
                n1 receives the new =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message, with sq=3D=
3,
                next-hop=3D0 and hop-count=3D1, since it=E2=80=99s a better r=
oute it
                would be added to the routing table. Then n1 multicast
                the =E2=80=9Crreq=E2=80=9D message to its neighbors, n2 and n=
3.<span></span></li>
              <li class=3D"MsoNormal" id=3D"yui_3_16_0_1_1457457231998_14534=
">
                n2 evaluate the received message sent by n1 and adds a
                new route to its routing table with sq=3D3, next-hop=3D1 and=

                hop-count=3D2 since the sequence number of the received
                message is greater than the stored one.<span></span></li>
            </ol>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">At this point a loop has been formed
              between nodes n1 and n2.<span></span></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Since we=E2=80=99ve moved to disall=
owing
                multiple Unconfirmed routes (in -14, which isn=E2=80=99t
                published yet), this one is resolved already as well.</span>=
</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
          </div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">The reason we didn=E2=80=99t discuss this e=
arlier
            on [manet] was that the authors hadn=E2=80=99t submitted their p=
aper
            yet (and I didn=E2=80=99t want to leak their work). They=E2=80=99=
ve done so
            now, and will send us a link to their paper once it=E2=80=99s
            available. I=E2=80=99m guessing it=E2=80=99ll take a while to be=
 published
            properly, but it should be enough for for our purposes for
            the paper to appear on
            <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://arxiv.org">arxiv.org<=
/a>
            for now=E2=80=A6</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards,</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lotte</p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
            <br>
          </p>
          <div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span>--</span></b></p>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span>Christopher Dearlove<br>
                    Senior Principal Engineer<br>
                    BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
                  </span></b><b><span>______________________________________=
____________________________________<br>
                  </span></b><span><br>
                </span><b><span>T</span></b><span>: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194=

                  &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span></b><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@ba=
esystems.com"><span></span></a><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D=
"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a></sp=
an><br>
                <span><br>
                </span><span>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence,
                  Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford,
                  Essex CM2 8HN.<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://www.baesystems.=
com/ai"><span>www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span></p>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>BAE Systems Applied
                    Intelligence Limited<br>
                    Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</span></p=
>
              </div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Registered Office: Surrey
                  Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span=
></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span=
></span><span lang=3D"EN-US">Charlie Perkins [<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" hr=
ef=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net"><span></span></a><a class=3D"moz=
-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"mailto:charles.perkins@earthlink.net">mailto:cha=
rles.perkins@earthlink.net</a></span>]<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=
&nbsp;</span><br>
                      <b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span>01
                      March 2016 01:08<br>
                      <b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>Dearlove,
                      Christopher (UK); manet<br>
                      <b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&=
nbsp;</span>Re:
                      [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments</p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>&nbsp;</span></p>
              <div>
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              </div>
            </div>
            <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello Chris,</p>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 1/19/2016 5:37 AM, Dearlove,
                  Christopher (UK) wrote:</p>
              </div>
            </div>
            <blockquote>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">And outside those 31, that we=E2=80=
=99re
                    at this position with a suggestion there=E2=80=99s possi=
ble
                    looping (about which I have no idea) isn=E2=80=99t that
                    comforting.</p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </blockquote>
            <div>
              <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
                I hope your concerns have been resolved on this matter.&nbsp=
;
                The paper mentioned on the mailing list pointed out
                various ambiguities in RFC 3561 described how the
                ambiguities might be construed to install self-routes
                and, combined with possible inconsistent choices for
                sequence number, loops could result.&nbsp; But the email to
                the list several weeks ago indicated that these
                ambiguities do not exist in AODVv2.&nbsp; The authors of tha=
t
                paper have expressed interest in doing a similar
                analysis on AODVv2.<br>
                <br>
                Other discussion about routing loops has not identified
                routing loop problems in the existing specification.&nbsp;
                Use of unconfirmed or invalid routes for routing might
                lead to errors, but that doesn't carry over to produce
                loops in the route table.<br>
                <br>
                I'm looking for any other open issues outside of the
                Security Considerations which is being reworked
                according to recent comments but should be submitted
                soon.<br>
                <br>
                Regards,<br>
                Charlie P.<br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
                <br>
              </p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">There=E2=80=99s also a lot of documen=
t to
                  review. Which of course I haven=E2=80=99t done at this tim=
e.
                  But my attention did alight on the IANA considerations
                  section, and I noted there that:</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Not sure why the jump to 10 for
                  message types, though I=E2=80=99m not opposed.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- The PATH_METRIC TLV can=E2=80=99t b=
e type
                  10, that=E2=80=99s already taken. See IANA register.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- We previously pointed out that
                  CONT_SEQ_NUM (COMPLETE) already exists and does the
                  job that SEQ_NUM is doing, so why allocate another
                  TLV? (You could avoid the necessity of repeating
                  (COMPLETE) by simply commenting once and thereafter
                  omitting.)</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Why the suggested skipping of
                  types 12 to 14?</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>--</b></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Christopher Dearlove<br>
                    Senior Principal Engineer<br>
                    BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
__________________________________________________________________________<b=
r>
                  </b><br>
                  <b>T</b>: &nbsp;+44 (0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b>E:<spa=
n class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a moz-do-not-send=3D"tru=
e" href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com"><span></span></a><a class=3D=
"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com">chr=
is.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br>
                  <br>
                  BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford
                  Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2
                  8HN.<br>
                  <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://www.baesystems.=
com/ai"><span>www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence
                  Limited<br>
                  Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Registered Office: Surrey Research
                  Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span><=
/b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><=
/span><span lang=3D"EN-US">manet [<a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"mailto=
:manet-bounces@ietf.org"><span>mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<spa=
n class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf
                      Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><=
/b>Victoria
                    Mercieca<br>
                    <b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;=
</span>18
                    January 2016 21:45<br>
                    <b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</=
span>manet<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span>[manet]
                    AODVv2 responses to recent comments</span></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>*** WARNING ***</b></p>
                  </div>
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                        from outside our organisation, either from an
                        external partner or the internet.</em><i><br>
                        <em>Consider carefully whether you should click
                          on any links, open any attachments or reply.</em><=
br>
                        <em>For information regarding</em><span class=3D"app=
le-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><strong>Red
                          Flags</strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><em>that
                          you can look out for in emails you receive,
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                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">*<strong>** WARNING ***</strong><=
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                      EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from
                      outside our organization.</p>
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                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                </div>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all,</p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have just released the
                        newest AODVv2 draft. The major update is the
                        separation of the AODVv2 route set from the RIB.<br>=

                        <br>
                        Here are also responses to the comments received
                        before Christmas. This should include all the
                        points from Thomas Clausen regarding versions 11
                        and 12, and also a couple of other points which
                        have been brought up since. Apologies for the
                        huge email. For issues that need further
                        discussion, I have tried to include the main
                        points of the discussion so far. Please feel
                        free to create a separate thread for any further
                        discussion.<br>
                        <br>
                        We are still looking into the loop conditions
                        recently reported for AODV, also still working
                        on the text about security, and use of
                        msg-hop-limit.</p>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards,</p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Victoria.</p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <div>
                      <p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                    </div>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
                          1. End-to-end / hop-by-hop acks - issue when a
                          route is marked as confirmed and valid when
                          the link to the next hop is confirmed as
                          bidirectional (but the links downstream have
                          not yet been verified as bidirectional).<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The authors believe this is an issue
                          which would not occur frequently, and would
                          right itself.<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"=
>&nbsp;</span><br>
                          <br>
                          This only occurs for the route to OrigAddr.
                          What needs to happen for this to occur is that
                          an intermediate node that takes part in the
                          route discovery between OrigAddr and TargAddr
                          coincidentally has packets to send to OrigAddr
                          in the time between confirming the link to its
                          own next hop toward OrigAddr is bidirectional,
                          and the time taken for all other routers on
                          the path to confirm their next hops too. If
                          the route is used to forward packets before
                          every other link in the path is confirmed as
                          bidirectional, and the data packets are
                          forwarded faster than the RREP and any
                          RREP_Acks, then yes they could be delivered to
                          a router without a valid route to OrigAddr.
                          Alternatively if one of the links turns out to
                          be unidirectional then the data packets will
                          also arrive at a router without a valid route.
                          In these cases, RERR messages will be
                          generated toward the source of the traffic,
                          the route to OrigAddr will be deleted at
                          routers back toward TargAddr, but if data
                          packets are still flowing from any source to
                          OrigAddr, the route will be re-requested by
                          the router responsible for discovering routes
                          for the source of the data.<br>
                          <br>
                          The changes required to make acknowledgements
                          end-to-end would require a lot more control
                          traffic and be necessary for every route
                          discovery and in almost all cases would be
                          unnecessary.<br>
                          <br>
                          Text has been added to the draft in =E2=80=9CLocal=

                          Route State Changes=E2=80=9D to describe this.<br>=

                          <br>
                          2. Buffering<br>
                          =EF=BB=BFThomas:<br>
                          =E2=80=9CIt would seem that buffering, as specifie=
d,
                          does not accomplish what<span class=3D"apple-conve=
rted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          it states that it accomplishes: packets are
                          (as you describe) still being<br>
                          sent while no route is available, and
                          therefore will be dropped later.<br>
                          =3D&gt; Consequently, it seems that buffering is
                          a futile exercise?=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: =EF=BB=BFPackets are buffered before a rou=
te
                          exists. A router only begins sending them when
                          it deems the route to be valid. In general,
                          buffering is not futile.<br>
                          <br>
                          True, there is this case outlined above where
                          the router could deem the route valid before
                          the bidirectionality check has happened for
                          each and every hop. If the links chosen for
                          the route are not all bidirectional, then yes,
                          any data packets forwarded along this route
                          will end up being dropped at some point on
                          that path.<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span><br>
                          This case is caused by the RREP_Ack being
                          hop-by-hop, and not caused by buffering.<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: =EF=BB=BF<br>
                          =E2=80=9CBuffers have huge impacts on TCP performa=
nce,
                          and I doubt if the issues on e.g. TCP are well
                          enough understood by this WG (Bufferbloat was
                          an example of where people got it wrong,
                          despite having extensive experience).=E2=80=9D<br>=

                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Packets will only be buffered while a
                          route is requested. The TCP packets buffered
                          will be packets for session initialisation.
                          The authors believe that buffering these will
                          have a positive effect. Some references have
                          been suggested, listed here, the first of
                          which has been included in the draft:<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://www.iee=
e802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodli.pdf"><span>http=
://www.ieee802.org/21/archived_docs/2003-09_incoming/ccr-200109-koodli.pdf</=
span></a><br>
                          Mobile Internetworking with IPv6: Concepts,
                          Principles and Practices {Koodli, Perkins}<br>
                          <a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://disc.ec=
e.illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt"><span>disc.ece.=
illinois.edu/seminars_tutorials/tcp-wireless-tutorial.ppt</span></a><br>
                          Analysis of TCP performance over mobile ad hoc
                          networks<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?=
id=3D313540"><span></span></a><a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"htt=
p://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D313540">http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=3D=
313540</a><br>
                          Alternatively, we could remove the mention of
                          TCP, and instead state that buffering MAY be
                          used for packets awaiting a route, but that
                          implementation and implications of this are
                          out of scope for AODVv2.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          3. Use of msg-hop-limit and msg-hop-count:<br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          But, either way, as according to your model
                          messages are never forwarded, but always are
                          intended for receipt by a router which is a
                          direct neighbor, then a &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt;
                          &gt;1 (which applies to the message) seems
                          inappropriate.<span class=3D"apple-converted-space=
">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          Actually, according to that model, I would
                          even say that receipt of a message with a
                          &lt;msg-hop-count&gt; &gt;1 should be
                          interpreted as a malfunction.<br>
                          As you refer to RFC5444 appendix B, do note
                          that Appendix B of RFC5444 (and, note the
                          errata 4003) talks about:<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;msg-hop-limit&g=
t; field, if present,
                          contains the number of hops on which the
                          message is allowed to travel before being
                          discarded by a MANET router.&nbsp; The
                          &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; is set by the message
                          originator and is used to prevent messages
                          from endlessly circulating in a MANET.<span class=3D=
"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          Specifically =E2=80=9Cset by the message originato=
r=E2=80=9D
                          and =E2=80=9Cnumber of hops on which the message i=
s
                          allowed to travel=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 with your con=
trol
                          messages traveling just one hop, I believe
                          that setting &lt;msg-hop-limit&gt; =3D 1 is
                          correct.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Discussion is still needed here. We
                          wonder if these fields are necessary at all
                          for AODVv2. We were using them to limit the
                          number of regenerations of a RREQ. However,
                          the hop limit value needs to be large enough
                          to allow a RREQ from one side of the network
                          to another. It might be the case that using
                          the hop limit, almost every router in the
                          network would receive that RREQ anyway, and by
                          using the redundancy check, we already stop
                          RREQs from circulating endlessly.<br>
                          <br>
                          4. Abstract<br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          =E2=80=9CI made the following comment, which still=

                          applies:<br>
                          =E2=80=9CThis is a little over-stating the
                          applicability: these statements may be true in
                          some scenarios (for example, when there are
                          few concurrent traffic flows, and therefore
                          few routes to repair, and therefore few
                          flooding operations to contend for channel
                          access). As a general statement, this last
                          sentence is incorrect=E2=80=9D=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The text has been removed and the
                          abstract now states: =E2=80=9C The Ad Hoc On-deman=
d
                          Distance Vector Version 2 (AODVv2) routing
                          protocol is intended for use by mobile routers
                          in wireless, multihop networks.&nbsp; AODVv2
                          determines unicast routes among AODVv2 routers
                          within the network in an on-demand fashion.=E2=80=9D=
<br>
                          <br>
                          5,9,12,13,20. Router Client<br>
                          Thomas:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span><br>
                          =E2=80=9CI made a comment previously that =E2=80=9C=
Router
                          client=E2=80=9D is a poorly chosen term, and have
                          proposed alternatives. I=E2=80=99ve seen some atte=
mpts
                          on the list at rather than change the term,
                          explain it =E2=80=94 some of which is in this
                          document. The =E2=80=9COverview=E2=80=9D still tal=
ks about =E2=80=9Ca
                          router=E2=80=A6one of its clients=E2=80=9D - which=
 is no less
                          confusing than last time Iw went through it.<br>
                          I reiterate, why not use =E2=80=9CLocal Attached
                          Network Set=E2=80=9D, which is the term used by ot=
her
                          documents from this WG?=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We already answered this suggestion on
                          the MANET list and asked for comments and
                          suggestions, and no responses were received.
                          We have defined what we mean by Router Client,
                          and the terminology has so far not changed.
                          However, some alternatives have been
                          suggested, so if you feel any of these are
                          more effective, please let us know:<br>
                          =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Advertised IP=
 Address: puts the emphasis
                          on advertisement rather than topological
                          connection<br>
                          =E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Accessible IP Address:=
 puts the emphasis
                          on accessibility through the particular router
                          =E2=80=93 not bad<br>
                          =E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Reduced Function Devic=
e [RFD]: doesn=E2=80=99t
                          roll off the tongue, but this is terminology
                          used for L2R in IEEE 802 Wireless for a
                          similar situation<br>
                          =E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Accessible Device Addr=
ess: adds some
                          emphasis for the device as well as the address<br>=

                          =EF=BB=BF=E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Stably Connec=
ted IP Address: nothing is
                          permanent, of course, but the router client
                          set is thought to be relatively stable<br>
                          =E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Topologically Connecte=
d IP address: ...
                          suggests that a "topological connection" is
                          stable compared to wireless<br>
                          =E2=80=A2&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Administratively Assig=
ned IP address: ...
                          somehow does not connote the "otherness" of
                          the router client devices.<br>
                          <br>
                          6. Overview - adjacency<br>
                          Thomas:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp=
;</span><br>
                          The term =E2=80=9Cconfirming adjacency=E2=80=9D is=
 gone, and
                          is now replaced by =E2=80=9Cconfirming
                          bidirectionality=E2=80=9D - which, alas, still sou=
nds
                          like there is some active monitoring (HELLO
                          message exchange) going on. Unless that is the
                          case, then please be more specific here.<br>
                          I note that the term adjacency is used through
                          and through the document, btw.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The text has been updated to avoid the
                          word adjacency. We do not believe the text
                          implies active monitoring through HELLO
                          messages.<br>
                          <br>
                          7. Overview - forwarding plane<br>
                          Thomas: I suggested in my last review: The
                          overview must also include a paragraph on the
                          intersections between this protocol and the
                          forwarding plane =E2=80=94 this, as it is differen=
t
                          (and more invasive) from that which is
                          typically seen in routing protocols.<br>
                          Specifically, as a reactive protocol, it is
                          required (at least) that the forwarding plane
                          is modified :<br>
                          1) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when looking up a next=
 hop for a
                          data packet to be forwarded, is signalled to
                          the AODVv2 process so as to permit that route
                          discovery be launched;<br>
                          2) A =E2=80=9Cmiss=E2=80=9D when attempting to del=
iver a data
                          packet to a next hop, which was recorded in
                          the routing table, is signalled to the AODVv2
                          process so as to permit that a route repair be
                          initiated and/or a Route Error be generated.<br>
                          3) A =E2=80=9Chit=E2=80=9D when looking up a next h=
op for a
                          data packet to be forwarded to a destination
                          is signalled to the AODVv2 process so as to
                          permit maintenance of =E2=80=9Cactive route=E2=80=9D=
 Route
                          State, timers and such.<br>
                          Note that these things are necessary to call
                          out in the =E2=80=9Coverview=E2=80=9D and in the
                          =E2=80=9Capplicability statement=E2=80=9D, both: i=
t is not
                          that they are negatives per se, but that they
                          are important factors governing the
                          applicability of this protocol: will a given
                          platform permit such access to the forwarding
                          plane, for example? Important to understand if
                          for that platform this protocol is apple<br>
                          I see that this was not addressed in the
                          overview, nor in the applicability other than
                          by a forward reference to section 6.4. While
                          it is positive that there is a section 6.4,
                          this does not exonerate the overview and the
                          applicability statement for being honest about
                          the requirements (notably to the platform/os)
                          that this protocol has for being applicable<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The Overview and the Applicability
                          Statement now refer to these basic
                          requirements for the interaction with the
                          forwarding plane. The Applicability Statement
                          also contains the reference to the later
                          section which describes this in more detail.<br>
                          <br>
                          8. 7182 and security<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I suggested in my last review: It is
                          important to do more than this: 7182 does only
                          provide =E2=80=9Ccontainers=E2=80=9D for ICVs and t=
imestamps,
                          and does not specify how to use them to obtain
                          specific security properties. RFC7182 may be a
                          tool that can be used, but how* that tool is
                          used is what determines the security
                          properties.<br>
                          Therefore, saying that =E2=80=9Csecurity is dealt w=
ith
                          by using RFC7182=E2=80=9D is either an incomplete
                          statement, or is indicative of insufficient
                          security considerations.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          The actual sentence in the I-D has been
                          changed, now it explicitly names the two TLVs
                          from 7182 that it uses. That is, alas, still
                          not sufficient.<br>
                          Making the aside that was discussed recently
                          on the list, that (i) control messages are not
                          forwarded, and that (ii) they are modified in
                          transit, the security/trust model is somewhat
                          different from that of 7181 and consequently
                          for what 7182 was initially written for. I
                          think that&nbsp; calling out the trust model, and
                          how 7182 actually is used here, might be what
                          is called for.<br>
                          Continuing with the aside, this *especially*
                          as the applicability statement says:
                          "Providing security for a reactive routing
                          protocol can be difficult=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          =EF=BB=BFOK, so assume that I understand regenerat=
ion
                          as per my previous email, as meaning =E2=80=9Cgene=
rate
                          a new message and send to my neighbors, based
                          on what I learned when processing a received
                          message=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 just like any distance v=
ector
                          protocol does.<br>
                          In that model, what you write makes sense:
                          each originator of a control message (i.e.,
                          whoever generates or regenerates it) is free
                          to include the information it desires, such as
                          the 4 points you list above. No issues with
                          that.<br>
                          However, and this joins what I pointed out in
                          a previous email, you write in the
                          applicability statement: "Providing security
                          for a reactive routing protocol can be
                          difficult."<br>
                          While we can discuss if the nature
                          of&nbsp;=E2=80=9Creactive routing protocol=E2=80=9D=
 generates
                          particular difficulties, we certainly can
                          agree that this protocol has the
                          same&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cdifficulties=E2=80=9D as a dist=
ance vector
                          protocol: routing&nbsp;topology information (by
                          definition) not being exchanged end-to-end,
                          but between neighbors (who do&nbsp;calculations an=
d
                          generate their own announcements&nbsp;=E2=80=94
                          regeneration, as you call it).<span class=3D"apple=
-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          This means that a specific security model of
                          transitive trust must be assumed, no? I trust
                          Victoria,&nbsp;therefore when Victoria says&nbsp;=E2=
=80=9CStan
                          told me=E2=80=9D&nbsp;then I trust that she&nbsp;a=
ctually
                          verified that "it was indeed Stan who told
                          her&nbsp;=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D&nbsp;=E2=80=94 and eit=
her way, I have no way of
                          verifying?<br>
                          I did not see the trust model / trust
                          assumption discussed in the specification
                          (specifically not in applicability and in
                          section 13, both of where it should be called
                          out), but I think that this is actually a
                          crucial point to get right, in order to
                          approach developing the MTI security
                          mechanisms.<br>
                          Anyways, that observation actually contrasts
                          strongly with what the applicability statement
                          then goes on to say, namely:<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 provides for message integrity=
 and
                          security against replay<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp; attacks by using integrity check valu=
es,
                          timestamps and sequence<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp; numbers, as described in Section 13.<=
br>
                          This is true only in as much as messages are
                          indeed exchanged between neighbors: when
                          you&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cregenerate=E2=80=9D a message, i=
.e., generate a
                          new&nbsp;message in response to receipt of a
                          message, you generate brand new payload (but
                          possibly including some of&nbsp;the data from the
                          received message, of course): thus, any
                          ICVs&nbsp;=E2=80=9Cfrom farther away than the
                          neighbor=E2=80=9D&nbsp;will be useless (or, if you=
 zero out
                          the parts that you change, these parts will
                          not be protected).<br>
                          The above sentence, quoted from the
                          applicability statement, and that which
                          transpires from section 13, seems - certainly,
                          absent the trust model assumed - to suggest
                          that end-to-end protection/validation is
                          provided. But, this is not the case.<br>
                          Finally to the applicability statement, a
                          question:<br>
                          If security associations can be established,
                          encryption can be used for AODVv2 messages to
                          ensure that only trusted routers participate
                          in routing operations.<br>
                          What you want to say here is that =E2=80=9Cif all
                          trusted routers have a shared secret, then
                          we=E2=80=99re able to use that shared secret to ig=
nore
                          non-trusted routers=E2=80=9D, right?<span class=3D=
"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          While =E2=80=9Csecurity associations=E2=80=9D that=
 do not pass
                          through a shared secret probably can be
                          thought up, it=E2=80=99s not trivial and I did not=

                          find any discussion of that in the document?<br>
                          Having, on the topic of security, re-read
                          Section 13, which starts:<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp; This section describes various securi=
ty
                          considerations and potential<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp; avenues to secure AODVv2 routing.&nbs=
p;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          While this is an honest description of what
                          follows, I remain convinced that this is not
                          sufficient. So let me ask as precisely as I
                          can:<br>
                          o what is the MTI security mechanism that a
                          conformant implementation must
                          provide?&nbsp;Specifically: - which are the
                          processing steps (for example in section
                          7.2.1&nbsp;and section 7.2.2 for RREP - and
                          similarly for the other message&nbsp;types) that
                          define that security mechanism<br>
                          o what protection is offered by that MTI
                          security mechanism? And what remains
                          vulnerable.<br>
                          If this specification targets std.track, then
                          it should include (reasonably solid, but
                          definitely well specified) MTI security.<br>
                          <br>
                          Chris Dearlove:<br>
                          =EF=BB=BFThere are two potential choices:<br>
                          <br>
                          - RREQ has an integrity check value to
                          indicate that someone trusted created it, if
                          not necessarily the destination. That someone
                          might be identifiable or not.<br>
                          - RREQ has a signature that indicates that the
                          destination created it.<br>
                          <br>
                          Unfortunately, an RREQ that changes as it is
                          forwarded (aggregating data of any sort) makes
                          the second option tricky, unless there=E2=80=99s s=
ome
                          sort of aggregating signature as it is
                          forwarded. But I=E2=80=99m not an expert on the
                          latter.<br>
                          <br>
                          The most trivial case of the former is simply
                          that everyone trusted has a single shared key.
                          That has obvious issues =E2=80=93 although it was g=
ood
                          enough that embodied as RFC 7183 we could get
                          7181 through the system (as a =E2=80=9Cmust implem=
ent,
                          do not need to use=E2=80=9D minimal case).
                          Alternatively something identity-based (e.g.
                          draft-ietf-manet-ibs) could be used, so you
                          know who created the message you received, but
                          you are relying on a chain of trust, hop by
                          hop. At which point you might as well just
                          sign packets (see RFC 7182).<br>
                          <br>
                          But in even the weakest case (the single
                          shared key used hop by hop) there has to be a
                          failure for things to go wrong - either loss
                          of key (in which case all bets are off) or
                          suborning one router (who can do quite a lot
                          of damage).<br>
                          <br>
                          I haven't read the latest AODVv2 draft yet,
                          but this sort of thing should be described in
                          its security considerations - the previous
                          draft though didn't discuss this as far as I
                          recall.<br>
                          <br>
                          Chris Dearlove:<br>
                          =EF=BB=BFIf you go down this route of assuming
                          transitive trust, then you might as well use
                          7182=E2=80=99s packet ICV and timestamp rather tha=
n
                          message ICV and timestamp.<br>
                          &nbsp;<br>
                          There is a complication (mostly one of
                          presentation) that the 5444 multiplexer
                          (rather than AODVv2) needs to do this, at
                          least for packets containing AODVv2 messages
                          (but at which point, probably all 5444
                          packets). So you either, depending on your
                          point of view, need to request it to do that,
                          or (administratively) decline to operate
                          except over a 5444 multiplexer that is doing
                          this.<br>
                          &nbsp;<br>
                          The advantage is one of saved space and time
                          when packets contain more than one message.
                          Plus slightly better protection (hop count and
                          limit are covered) but which probably doesn=E2=80=99=
t
                          matter here.<br>
                          &nbsp;<br>
                          If messages are changed/replaced on a
                          one-to-one basis as forwarded, then the only
                          solutions I can see are hop by hop transitive
                          trust (packets or messages per hop), or
                          something complicated involving aggregation
                          and knowledge of changes. But the latter would
                          be a research task to develop, so let=E2=80=99s no=
t
                          try that.<br>
                          <br>
                          Jiazi Yi:<br>
                          I=EF=BB=BF agree with Chris and Thomas on their
                          concerns on the hop-by-hop security issue.<span cl=
ass=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          This is very different from classical DV
                          protocol, in which the vector information is
                          designed to be exchanged between neighbours.<span c=
lass=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          In AODVv2, the RREQ/RREP/RERR are to be
                          forwarded through multiple hops. A router can
                          sign a message that isn't actually initialised
                          by itself -- this is, at least, against
                          intuition.<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&n=
bsp;</span><br>
                          This can be an issue if we have compromised
                          routers in the network. Of course, a
                          compromised router is a problem for every
                          protocol, like OLSRv2. But in OLSRv2, a
                          compromised router can only speak on behalf of
                          itself -- however, in AODVv2, a
                          compromised/mis-configured router can pretend
                          to be any other router (for example, generate
                          RREQ messages using another address as
                          OrigAddr).&nbsp; The consequence will be much more=

                          serious if that happens.<span class=3D"apple-conve=
rted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: This is not yet addressed.<br>
                          <br>
                          9. Terminology - host, routers, router
                          clients:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbs=
p;</span><br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: My last review suggested:<br>
                          =E2=80=9CThis has been brought up on the list seve=
ral
                          times in the past, without having been
                          addressed.<br>
                          There are =E2=80=9Chosts=E2=80=9D and there are =E2=
=80=9Crouters=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94
                          whose roles are well defined. Node=E2=80=9D not so=

                          much =E2=80=94 which is clear from looking at the
                          definition here: =E2=80=9Ceither AODVv2 routers or=

                          router clients=E2=80=9D (with =E2=80=9Crouter clie=
nts=E2=80=9D being
                          defined as =E2=80=9Can AODVv2 router is also its o=
wn
                          router client=E2=80=9D).<br>
                          <br>
                          This is very much related to the use of
                          =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D, and both that ter=
m, and
                          =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D indicative that some clarit=
y is needed
                          here.<br>
                          <br>
                          All a router cares about is =E2=80=9Can address=E2=
=80=9D. If
                          that address is of a network, or a router, or
                          an interface (and, if said interface is
                          installed in a router or a host) doesn=E2=80=99t
                          matter.<br>
                          <br>
                          So, =E2=80=9Can address=E2=80=9D is something that=
 the routing
                          protocol should care about finding paths to.
                          Which means that each address that should be
                          made reachable by the routing protocol should
                          be advertised by (at least) one router in the
                          network.<br>
                          <br>
                          One way of doing that would be to simply talk
                          about =E2=80=9CAttached Networks=E2=80=9D as is do=
ne in
                          RFC7181, wherein an address included in the
                          =E2=80=9CAttached Network Set=E2=80=9D is advertis=
ed by an
                          OLSRv2 router....in this case, the equivalent
                          would be =E2=80=9Cfor each address in the Attached=

                          Network Set of an AODVv2 router the router
                          MUST respond authoritatively to a RREQ, and
                          MUST maintain the corresponding sequence
                          number=E2=80=9D.<br>
                          The text, as it currently is, is really hard
                          to read, and a re-edit along these lines would
                          go a long way.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          I note that the terms =E2=80=9CNode=E2=80=9D and =E2=
=80=9CRouter
                          Client=E2=80=9D are still used, in their original
                          form, and that other than some slight
                          wordsmithing this comment has not been
                          addressed in the document.<br>
                          <br>
                          I reiterate that the need to use router, host,
                          node, and router client in and by itself
                          should be an indicator that tightening up of
                          terminology is required.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: See 5. The use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D h=
as been
                          addressed.<br>
                          <br>
                          10. Terminology and elsewhere - address<br>
                          Thomas: I made the following comment to
                          Routable Unicast IP Address:<br>
                          =E2=80=9CAre there any technical reason why not si=
mply
                          *any* address could be considered by the
                          routing protocol?<br>
                          My understanding, but correct me if I am
                          wrong, is that all that is required is that
                          all interfaces in a given AODVv2 routing
                          domain has an unique address.<br>
                          That some of these addresses (by an IP
                          addressing architecture document) has special
                          semantics associated (such as are link locals,
                          or are for private use, or are for example use
                          only, or are for multicast) is out of scope
                          here?<br>
                          I see nothing has changed on the above, so let
                          me be more explicit: the routing protocol
                          itself probably) should not care about what
                          kind of addresses are filled into it. Is an
                          192.16./16 address appropriate? Not across the
                          internet, but it may be in somebody=E2=80=99s priv=
ate
                          deployments. Should the routing protocol be
                          =E2=80=9Caddress police=E2=80=9D and is implementa=
tion of a =E2=80=9CI
                          refuse to route these addresses=E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D a=

                          requirement for claiming conformance? Suggest
                          simply stating what the requirements are under
                          which the routing protocol will work =E2=80=94 and=

                          leave =E2=80=9Caddress assignment politics=E2=80=9D=
 aside.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We ask for clarification on this
                          issue. We use the phrase =E2=80=9Croutable and
                          unicast=E2=80=9D in the draft with respect to Orig=
Addr
                          and TargAddr. We dont mean to exclude
                          addresses from the private address ranges. But
                          we dont want to request routes for multicast,
                          indeterminate, link-local, or loopback
                          addresses. This is not about router interface
                          addresses which are used for AODVv2.<br>
                          <br>
                          11. Multiple interfaces with the same IP
                          address, 6621 implications<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I also continued:<br>
                          Now, with that being said also, the WG wanted
                          that RFC7181 supports not just multiple
                          interfaces, but also the same address used on
                          multiple interfaces of the same router. There
                          were good reasons for that, and while it was
                          not trivial to implement, it turned out to be
                          the right thing to support. If there are
                          technical reasons why this is not supported in
                          AODVv2 (for example, if this cannot be made
                          work because of &lt;reason&gt;) then that
                          should be called out in the applicability
                          statement also?<br>
                          Conversely, if it is possible in AODVv2, then
                          I do not believe that it is clearly specified
                          how (at least, in the =E2=80=9Cnaive=E2=80=9D on p=
aper
                          examples I drew up, something ended up not
                          working). So either the protocol as-is does
                          not support it (but could be made to?) or it
                          is supported (but just need to be spelled
                          out), or is not possible (and need to be
                          disclaimed in the applicability statement).<br>
                          Stan Ratliff was a driving force in holding
                          the WG=E2=80=99s collective feet to the fire in
                          getting this support included in RFC7181, and
                          would likely be the right person to consult on
                          this matter?<br>
                          I actually have not seen changes, or comments,
                          on this. In OLSRv2, the WG was making it a
                          strong requirement that it should be possible
                          to use the same IP address on different
                          interfaces of a router. It was somewhat
                          tedious to design around, but it was worked
                          out, and the conditions under which that was
                          possible were defined and documented.<br>
                          I would like to see the same done for this
                          protocol.<br>
                          I also note that this is not unrelated to
                          RFC6621-discussions. For example, when
                          selecting S-MPRs on a multi-interface and
                          multi-address-per-interface router, care must
                          be taken least things won=E2=80=99t work. So, if (=
and
                          this links back to previous mails) RFC6621 is
                          a requirement or desire for this protocol,
                          then there are some considerations required
                          here.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We have removed references to RFC
                          6621.<br>
                          Initial thoughts on this topic of multiple
                          interfaces using the same IP address, is that
                          this wouldn=E2=80=99t cause a problem, if the rout=
er
                          has only one sequence number. However, this is
                          up for further discussion.<br>
                          <br>
                          12. Interfaces configured as router clients<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I see that the definition of =E2=80=9CRout=
er
                          Client=E2=80=9D has changed to be<br>
                          =E2=80=9CAn address or address range=E2=80=A6the A=
ODVv2
                          router=E2=80=99s interface addresses are also
                          configured as router clients=E2=80=9D<br>
                          Better than before, but still missing the
                          target. The term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D i=
s, as I
                          indicated numerous times before, odd.<br>
                          But the second part of the sentence, does that
                          mean (what it says) that the interfaces must
                          be configured specially, so as to be able to
                          be =E2=80=9Crouter clients=E2=80=9D? That can=E2=80=
=99t be true.<br>
                          What you likely mean is:<br>
                          An AODVv2 router is configured so as to
                          consider its own interfaces as part of the
                          locally attached network set=E2=80=9D ?<br>
                          You configure the router, right? No special
                          =E2=80=9Cinterface configuration properties=E2=80=9D=
 are
                          required for an interface to be announcable
                          by&nbsp; an AODVv2 router? (And, getting rid of
                          node would actually make the definition
                          shorter and nicer)<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: The wording we use says: "The IP
                          Addresses of the router's interfaces will
                          appear in the Router Client Table." and in the
                          Terminology: "The AODVv2 router's interface
                          addresses are also configured as Router
                          Clients." Both statements say that =E2=80=98interf=
ace
                          addresses are configured as router clients=E2=80=99=

                          ...we are not sure why this is misunderstood.
                          We have a router client list, and the AODVv2
                          router=E2=80=99s interface addresses are included i=
n
                          this list. The interface itself doesn=E2=80=99t ha=
ve
                          special =E2=80=9Cinterface configuration propertie=
s=E2=80=9D.<br>
                          <br>
                          13 - more on router clients<br>
                          Thomas: Now, snipping out from the
                          applicability statement:<br>
                          "Multi-homing of an IP address is not
                          supported by AODVv2, and therefore a Router
                          Client, i.e. an IP Address,&nbsp; =E2=80=A6 "<br>
                          =E2=80=A6evidence to there being some redundant
                          terminology here to weed away.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: That was there as a reminder that a
                          router client is based on IP address, even
                          though the device with that IP address may
                          have other IP addresses too. It=E2=80=99s the IP
                          address that is the router client, not the
                          device as a whole with its entire collection
                          of configured IP addresses. One IP address of
                          that device might be configured as a router
                          client on one router, and a different IP
                          address of that device could be configured as
                          a router client on another router. The IP
                          addresses would seem to AODVv2 to be on
                          different devices.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          14. data elements<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: The below is a little bit of a
                          meta-comment, I am not quite sure what I think
                          here. The definitions for Target Node and such
                          were confusing before. They still are,
                          somewhat.<br>
                          I think that it may be because the definitions
                          now used are simply copy-pasted out from the
                          tables in the previous version, for example:<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp; =E2=80=9CAn AODVv2 Data Element conta=
ining the
                          destination address of the IP packet
                          triggering route discovery.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          OK, I can trace back and see that a Data
                          Element is something that exists inside a
                          protocol message. To me, however, that=E2=80=99s n=
ot
                          really general terminology as such, but part
                          of the specification of a packet format - or
                          rather, it is the notation that you use when
                          describing an algorithm. By the way, why are
                          some notations in CamelCase whereas others
                          have a space in them, e.g. =E2=80=9CTarget Node=E2=
=80=9D and
                          =E2=80=9CTargMetric=E2=80=9D, both of which are Da=
ta Elements?
                          Would be good with a consistent approach here.<br>=

                          I *think* that it would be better to take all
                          those =E2=80=9CData Element=E2=80=9D bits and move=
 to a
                          separate section (or subsection) to the
                          terminology, and then keep all the =E2=80=9Cother
                          stuff=E2=80=9D (Neighbor, =E2=80=A6) in its own se=
ction.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Your comment from draft 11 where we
                          already had data elements in a separate table,
                          says:<br>
                          "Also suggest abolishing this table and
                          folding the definitions in with the other
                          definitions in the terminology section."<br>
                          We have updated to not refer so heavily to the
                          term Data Element. All the terms are described
                          in the Terminology section. Those in CamelCase
                          are used as message fields.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          15. Route =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=E2=80=9D<=
br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I made a comment: Second, should =E2=80=9Cvalid ro=
ute=E2=80=9D
                          not be qualified by =E2=80=9Cto a specific address=
=E2=80=9D?=E2=80=9D<br>
                          Which was not addressed.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Every route is to a specific
                          address...the address is specified by
                          Route.Address and Route.PrefixLength.<br>
                          Do you mean that routes are to the address
                          TargAddr or OrigAddr and therefore to a
                          specific host address rather than to a network
                          prefix? This is not the case. Prefix Length is
                          included in AODVv2 messages so that the route
                          learned from the message represents the prefix
                          which OrigAddr or TargAddr resides on (if the
                          router client entry corresponding to OrigAddr
                          at RREQ_Gen or TargAddr at RREP_Gen is
                          configured with a prefix length). e.g.
                          OrigAddr is 10.0.0.1 but the corresponding
                          router client entry at RREQ_Gen could be<span clas=
s=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D=
"http://10.0.0.0/8"><span>10.0.0.0/8</span></a>.
                          So when constructing the RREQ you include a
                          prefix length of 8, and when receiving the
                          RREQ and learning the route to OrigAddr, you
                          can install a route to<span class=3D"apple-convert=
ed-space">&nbsp;</span><a moz-do-not-send=3D"true" href=3D"http://10.0.0.0/8=
"><span>10.0.0.0/8</span></a>.&nbsp;
                          Text has been updated to make this more
                          obvious.<br>
                          <br>
                          16. unreachable address<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I also made a comment on "Unreachable
                          Address=E2=80=9D - I am glad I did, because I
                          apparently had a different understanding than
                          what was intended. I now see that an
                          Unreachable Address by definition is an
                          address listed in a RERR message, and not the
                          same as an address to which no route has yet&nbsp;=

                          been discovered? If yes, then please use a
                          different term, such as
                          FormerlyReachableAddress=E2=80=9D or something of t=
he
                          sort?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: "Formerly reachable" is inaccurate...
                          we send a RERR if another router forwards a
                          packet via us, and we dont have a route, not
                          just when we lose a route. We might never have
                          had a route, or might never have had a valid
                          route, so the address may not have been
                          "formerly reachable". Also, I think
                          "FormerlyReachableAddress" is a really ugly
                          term. Unreachable means "we don=E2=80=99t have a r=
oute
                          and we aren=E2=80=99t going to request one" or "we=

                          lost this route" (depending on why the RERR is
                          being sent). It doesn=E2=80=99t mean "we didn=E2=80=
=99t
                          request one yet", and it would be wrong to
                          class an address as unreachable because we
                          hadn=E2=80=99t requested a route for it yet, that i=
s,
                          assuming it=E2=80=99s configured as a router clien=
t.<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          <br>
                          If a better term is suggested we could
                          consider changing but at the moment we have
                          kept =E2=80=9CUnreachable Address=E2=80=9D.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          17. Applicability - multiple interfaces same
                          address, 6621 again<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: Applicability statement: First, I
                          would like to recognize the efforts made to
                          improve this since last review. Thanks<br>
                          Second, the document states: "AODVv2 supports
                          routers with multiple interfaces, as long as
                          each interface configured for AODVv2 has a
                          unicast IP address.&nbsp; A router may use the sam=
e
                          IP address on multiple interfaces.&nbsp; Address
                          assignment procedures are out of scope for
                          AODVv2.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          Is that true? Granted, I have not worked this
                          through in detail, but I can present a
                          counter-example: the use of RFC6621 means that
                          there certainly are some constraints that must
                          be respected least various flooding
                          optimizations may not work.<br>
                          Secondly, if the
                          multiple-interfaces-with-same-address are on
                          the same L2, and this is what I have not
                          worked through, are there any situations that
                          will not work?<br>
                          The immediately previous version of this
                          specification read:<br>
                          "AODVv2 supports routers with multiple
                          interfaces, as long as each interface
                          configured for AODVv2 has its own unicast
                          routable IP address"<br>
                          So what changed that means that each interface
                          no longer needs its *own* unicast address?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Well, based on previous questions on
                          this, we talked it through and decided there
                          shouldn=E2=80=99t be an issue if different interfa=
ces
                          of a router used the same IP address. Note
                          that we changed AODVv2 so that there is one
                          sequence number per router. No longer can a
                          router use different sequence numbers on
                          different interfaces. If an RREQ went out of
                          two interfaces using the same address, we
                          worked it through and decided the request
                          would be processed correctly.<span class=3D"apple-=
converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br>
                          Also, text referring to RFC 6621 has been
                          removed.<br>
                          <br>
                          18. Applicability and appendix - multihoming<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I pointed out to the Applicability
                          Statement:<br>
                          I think that appendix B needs to be removed.
                          Essentially, it makes claims that it is
                          possible to do multi-homing =E2=80=94 but neither
                          specifies how it is done, nor gives pointers
                          to documents that justify the claim.<br>
                          AODVv2 does not support multi-homing =E2=80=94 tha=
t=E2=80=99s
                          clear, and it is fine that it is called out
                          here. Thank you for that.<br>
                          Now, with that being said, I am torn between
                          being satisfied that it is called out on one
                          hand, and wanting to have =E2=80=9Cmulti homing=E2=
=80=9D on
                          the other hand. RFC7181 supports multi-homing,
                          FWIW.<br>
                          I believe that this also would merit some
                          explicit discussion by the WG, in order to
                          understand if this design decision is
                          acceptable?<br>
                          I see that Appendix B still is in the
                          document, and I do not recall having seen this
                          discussed on the mailing list. Simply removing
                          the reference from the Applicability Statement
                          to Appendix B does not address the issue that
                          I raised in my previous review.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Appendix has been removed and may
                          appear in a future informational document.<br>
                          <br>
                          19. interfaces list - use of =E2=80=9CSHOULD=E2=80=
=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To 4.1, I made the following comment:<br>
                          "Is this a should, or a SHOULD? If the latter,
                          should it be a MUST?<br>
                          In general, there are a lot of such =E2=80=9Cmaybe=

                          normative language=E2=80=9D through the document, a=
nd
                          I would much like to see an editorial pass =E2=80=94=

                          essentially all may/should/ must and friends
                          carefully evaluated as if they should become
                          2119-terms, and ... more importantly (it has
                          been called out before, fwiw) quite a bit of
                          should/SHOULD which ought to be transformed
                          into MUST.<br>
                          Generally, aiming for a very a low number of
                          SHOULD is a good design metric for a document=E2=80=
=9D<br>
                          Aside from the general comment on
                          2119-language, why is this a SHOULD?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We changed this instance to a MUST and
                          will be checking for =E2=80=9Cmaybe normative
                          language=E2=80=9D.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          20. Router client - Local Attached Network Set<br>=

                          <br>
                          Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:<br>
                          As indicated earlier, I believe that the term
                          =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D is ill chosen. I b=
elieve that
                          it is more appropriately an =E2=80=9CAttached Netw=
ork
                          Set=E2=80=9D since =E2=80=94 as indicated previous=
ly =E2=80=94 the
                          term =E2=80=9CRouter Client=E2=80=9D is ambiguous.=
 I am
                          pleased to see, though, that this =E2=80=9CRouter
                          Client List=E2=80=9D in reality is an =E2=80=9CAtt=
ached
                          Network Set=E2=80=9D and so that change should be
                          (relatively) easy.<br>
                          The above comment still is applicable to this
                          revision,<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: See 5,9,12,13.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          21. Subnet<br>
                          Thomas: To 4.2, I made the following comment:<br>
                          Also, I recommend to not say =E2=80=9Csubnet=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=94 how
                          about rephrasing to =E2=80=9CIf a prefix is includ=
ed
                          in the attached network set of an AODVv2
                          router, then that AODVv2 router MUST provide
                          connectivity for, i.e. answer to RREQs and
                          maintain sequence numbers for, all addresses
                          from within that prefix.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          I note that while the term has been removed
                          from section 4, there=E2=80=99re 4 lingering insta=
nces
                          of this term in the document, that could
                          easily be removed.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: All mentions of "subnet" were in the
                          ENAR section. They have been updated to say
                          network, or "networks attached to the routers"<br>=

                          <br>
                          <br>
                          22. relocating router client<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: I Also made a comment about Appendix B
                          in my previous review, which is referenced
                          here. That comment still applies.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Moved into main draft.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          23. Neighbor Monitoring<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To Section 4.3, I noticed:<br>
                          Does section 6.2 describe how to monitor an
                          established adjacency only, or how to discover
                          neighbouring AODVv2 routers? Looking in 6.2, I
                          see<br>
                          =E2=80=9CNot every pair of neighboring routers wil=
l
                          necessarily form an adjacency,=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 s=
o it likely
                          isn=E2=80=99t 6.2 that tells me how to maintain th=
is
                          table?<br>
                          In short, =E2=80=9CA neighbour table MUST be
                          maintained=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 where can I find inf=
ormation on
                          how to do this?<br>
                          Section 6.2 states:<br>
                          =E2=80=9CThe default approach for monitoring
                          bidirectional connectivity to the next hop
                          toward OrigAddr is to request acknowledgement
                          of Route Reply messages.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          That certainly will tell me if a link over
                          which an RREP is sent is bi-directional, but
                          will not maintain a =E2=80=9Cneighbor table=E2=80=9D=
.<br>
                          So how is this done? Or, is the =E2=80=9CNeighbor
                          Table=E2=80=9D not supposed to contain the complet=
e
                          set of neighbours? What information =E2=80=9C...MU=
ST
                          be maintained=E2=80=9D then, in this table?<br>
                          This is very unclear, I would not know how to
                          implement a mechanism that populates this
                          =E2=80=9CNeighbor Table=E2=80=9D with the needed i=
nformation
                          here.<br>
                          I see no (relevant) changes to 6.2 nor to 4.3
                          so I assume that this comment has not been
                          addressed<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: A new section was added to show how to
                          update the neighbour table. There have also
                          been updates to this entire section since
                          version 12.<br>
                          <br>
                          24. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; pseudo-code<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I am throwing this in here, as I am sure that
                          I commented on that in the previous review,
                          but I do not see that addressed: is Appendix C
                          normative, or not? It represents =E2=80=9C a secon=
d
                          specification of the protocol, in a different
                          language=E2=80=9D from the main part of the
                          specification. I have not walked through and
                          made 200% sure that both are perfectly aligned
                          and that there are no ambiguities, but having
                          two different specifications of a protocol is
                          a recipe for disaster.&nbsp; Please either make
                          2000% sure that they are specifying the same
                          thing without ambiguities, or remove one.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Removed - maybe to include in an
                          informational document in future.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          25. seqnum as 16 bit unsigned integer<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To section 4.4, I wrote:<br>
                          "would like to nit-pick that: the router can
                          maintain this sequence number in whatever
                          format it pleases =E2=80=94 but, when it includes i=
t
                          in control messages, it must be representable
                          in a specified format, respecting certain
                          rules.=E2=80=9D<br>
                          I see that there were no changes following
                          this comment.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Why store it as anything other than
                          what it needs to be when it goes into a
                          message? However, we now state "MUST report
                          its own sequence number as a 16
                          bit....whenever it creates a RREQ or RREP
                          message".<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          26. multiple seqnums?<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          To section 4.4 I asked for clarification as to
                          if sequence numbers were per interface or per
                          router, as the specification was unclear on
                          that. The words has changed, but it still is
                          unclear: how many sequence numbers does a
                          router maintain? One? One per interface?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: We tried to start discussion on that
                          point, and in the meantime we reverted to
                          having 1 seqnum per router. We think the text
                          is clear... we refer to "the routers sequence
                          number" or "its sequence number" - never
                          hinting that there could be multiple seqnums
                          per router (as far as I'm aware).<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          27. sets/lists/tables<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          In my previous review, I expressed that it
                          would be preferential to use =E2=80=9Ca notation o=
f
                          Sets=E2=80=9D rather than tables. I see that this h=
as
                          not changed.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: You preferred sets rather than lists
                          in your previous review...and explained our
                          reasoning for this in responses to the MANET
                          list, and we did not receive further comments.<br>=

                          <br>
                          <br>
                          28. use of =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I made a comment on node and address, let me
                          pick this up again. The following:<br>
                          RteMsg.OrigAddr<br>
                          An IP address of the node which requires the
                          route, i.e., the source address of the IP
                          packet triggering the route request.<br>
                          would be more compact and clear if getting rid
                          of the term =E2=80=9Cnode=E2=80=9D and said:<br>
                          RteMsg.OrigAddr<br>
                          The source address of the IP packet triggering
                          the route request.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Change made as suggested.<br>
                          <br>
                          29. route table/rib/routing set<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas: To section 4.6, and I (and others)
                          have commented on this before:<br>
                          All AODVv2 routers MUST maintain a route
                          table.&nbsp; The route table entry is a conceptual=

                          data structure.&nbsp; Implementations MAY use any
                          internal representation but MUST contain the
                          following information:<br>
                          In order to avoid confusion, rename this to
                          =E2=80=9CRouting Information Base=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=
=9CRouting Set=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94
                          a Routing Table is an operating system
                          construct, whereon operations directly
                          influence packet forwarding. What you are
                          defining here is a RIB/an RS.<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Done in version 13.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          30. rreq for prefix, use of =E2=80=9Cip address=E2=
=80=9D and
                          =E2=80=9Caddress"<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          The confusion that I pointed out in my
                          previous review on =E2=80=9CIP address=E2=80=9D an=
d =E2=80=9CAddress=E2=80=9D
                          being used a bit haphazardly persists, fwiw.
                          It makes me think, can a router send an RREQ
                          for a prefix?<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: See also #15. RREQ_Gen can include the
                          prefix associated with OrigAddr by adding a
                          prefix length to the message, the prefix
                          length associated with the router client entry
                          corresponding to OrigAddr. So all routers
                          which receive it can learn a route to the
                          prefix on which OrigAddr resides. But for
                          TargAddr... the RREQ only has one target IP
                          address - the destination IP address of the
                          packet requiring the route... so what prefix
                          length would it use? The RREQ requests a route
                          to a single IP address. However, when the RREP
                          is created, RREP_Gen should include the prefix
                          length associated with the router client entry
                          for TargAddr. So all routers which receive
                          this RREP learn a route to the prefix TargAddr
                          is part of (if the router client entry is
                          configured with a prefix length). The text has
                          been updated to make this more obvious.<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          31. next hop ip address wording<br>
                          <br>
                          Thomas:<br>
                          I also called this out in my previous review
                          as incorrect, and despite wordsmithing it
                          still is:<br>
                          <br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Route.N=
extHop<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The source IP address of the
                          message advertising the route to<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Route.Address, i.e. an IP
                          address of the AODVv2 router used for<br>
                          &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; the next hop on the path toward
                          Route.Address.<br>
                          <br>
                          If that =E2=80=9Cmessage=E2=80=9D is an RFC5444 en=
tity, then
                          it does to have a =E2=80=9Csource IP Address=E2=80=
=9D =E2=80=94 the
                          encapsulating IP datagram containing the
                          packet containing the message does. And the
                          message MAY have an Originator Address<br>
                          <br>
                          AODVv2: Updated to say =E2=80=9Cthe source IP addr=
ess
                          of the IP packet containing the message
                          advertising...=E2=80=9D<br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <br>
                        </p>
                      </div>
                    </div>
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Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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Dear all,

Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.

I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of those =
have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, but =
should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut parts =
of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.

With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.

I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.

Loops
Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D

I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6


Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=9D=
, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20

Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops above, =
intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for loops.

Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way that =
can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=
=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), etc.


Forwarding-vs-regeneration
Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.

I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:


	o	It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.
		This would not be bad if the functionality offered by =
those fields was not useful
		=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope limited =
flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
		such) which may be of interest, and which require =
hop-limit.=20
		A hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D=
 (in terms of overhead) additional piece
		of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=
=80=9D metric.

		The only practical solution would be to re-introduce =
these functions by way of inserting a
		MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this =
document, and (ii) which would just
		serve to render messages bigger than strictly needed.

		Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a necessary =
requirement, if for no
		other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.

	o	It makes end-to-end authentication unnecessarily hard.
		I think Chris called this out already, but it bears =
repeating: S generates a message=20
		(say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated over the =
content of the message.
		For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the =
message has to be exactly
		the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in structure =
=E2=80=94 as what was generated.

		=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
		router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose =
a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
		in a different order).

		The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
		is to add constraints on (i) the set of elements to =
include in a signature and (ii) the
		order of these elements.

		One problem with that approach is (i): if an extension =
adds a message TLV, or an=20
		Address TLV, to a message, then that will not be =
=E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
		Rather for *each* extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates=
 e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.

		I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to =
errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
		of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a =
message being generated by the
		source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, for example) =
would allow ICV TLVs=20
		(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for =
covering a message and=20
		extensions.

		=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will =
change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
		Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply =
zero out the value of that TLV when
		generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use =
Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
		authentication, if needed (but, see below).

	o	It prevents the use of more clever/advanced signature =
schemes/ICVs
		Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
		exist, and an interesting use-case can be found in also =
reactive protocols, allowing verifying
		not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but also the =
intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D
		discussed above, or something smarter).
		Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, =
renders that impossible (or, if used,
		updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)

There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.

I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.

Security Considerations
This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.

A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration from =
RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that went =
through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to =
implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.

As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:

      On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
      message is invalid for processing by this router

and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead to =
a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.

If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly into =
the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and slow =
down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.

Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.

For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and *not* =
regenerated), this could be one option:

		o	When a RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an =
ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
			 =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)

		o	When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted  (by =
the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
			in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added =
to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6

		o	When an RFC5444 packet is received, validate the =
ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,
			discard the contained messages.

		o	When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as =
destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
			<this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate, discard the message, do not process, do not forward.

This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.

Metrics
I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?

   [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
              and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path Calculation
              in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
              RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March 2012,
              <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.


Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:

   Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable in =
ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?

 I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?

Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.

RFC6621 (SMF) usage
As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20

Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.


And quoting an email from myself:
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.

I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree of =
configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different relay =
set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected flooding =
domain).

In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.

Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)

This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of =
the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20

I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =
=E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able =
to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface =
configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces must be =
worked out.

Prefixes & Gateways
A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from =
reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =
=E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a =
/<128 in IPv6)?

	o	If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set =
of a single router,=20
		then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the =
case?

	o	If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network =
set of a single router,=20
		and the other half is part of the attached network set =
of another  single router,=20
		then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?

	o	More generally, will I get a tree build through the =
network here?

Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).

But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far =
far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would =
be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20

Is this a supported configuration?=20
	o	If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some =
complications) handled?=20
	o	If not, where is it stated that this configuration is =
not possible with this protocol?


The applicability statement says:

   AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.

I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not =
a transit network)?

=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20

As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.

Best,

Thomas




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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Dear all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job =
leaving few spare cycles.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and =
some of those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others =
have not, but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to =
rebut parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to =
that.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With =
that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the document, and =
full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a couple of =
big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up front, as I =
believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be useless to go =
into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an exhaustive list of =
=E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s as far as I have =
gotten in thinking this through.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are items =
that have been brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not =
resolved nor discussed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about =
conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere =
are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two =
situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still =
investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a =
discussion had in public, but apparently in some other =
forum=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section =
10</u></b></div><div class=3D"">Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvagu=
ely specified extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended =
status indicated for this document.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated =
to the point about loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a =
potential source for loops.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in =
a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</b></u></div><div =
class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol =
control messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then =
a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated =
and transmitted.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; read some of the =
exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I =
am convinced that this is not the right way to go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at =
least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the =
RFC5444 message header useless.</b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>This would not be bad if the functionality offered by those =
fields was not useful</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. =
For example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>A =
hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D =
metric.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>The only practical solution would be to re-introduce these =
functions by way of inserting a</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this document, =
and (ii) which would just</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>serve to render messages bigger than strictly needed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Scope limited flooding &nbsp;does seem to be a necessary =
requirement, if for no</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>I =
think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S generates =
a message&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>(say, a RREQ), and =
includes an ICV calculated over the content of the message.</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the message has =
to be exactly</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>the same =E2=80=94 not =
just in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was =
generated.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=
=9D messages means, that the intermediate</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose a =
different structure (e.g., include TLVs</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>in a different order).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>order of these elements.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>One&nbsp;problem with =
that approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or =
an&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>Address TLV, to a =
message, then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed =
e2esec TLV.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>Rather for *each* =
extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to =
be done.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94=
 and add entropy to the process</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a message =
being generated by the</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>source and *forwarded* =
(as we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for covering a =
message and&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>extensions.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will change on =
each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply zero out =
the value of that TLV when</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs =
for hop-by-hop&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more =
clever/advanced signature schemes/ICVs</u></b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Aggregate signature algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</a>)</di=
v><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing =
verifying</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>discussed above, or something smarter).</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, renders that =
impossible (or, if used,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a>)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are =
other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as immediate =
show-stoppers.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=
 do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b></div><div class=3D"">This is an always thorny =
subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the process we got a thorough =
education in how little we knew about security from the SEC-ADs, and had =
to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183. The bottom line is, that =
this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 &nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, =
either as part of the main document, or as an independent document. =
currently, that is not the case.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =
=E2=80=94 taking inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that =
was the most recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, =
however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism =
most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, =
SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that =
that:</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... message, a router =
MUST first check if the</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
message is invalid for processing by this router</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">and then proceed to give a number of =
conditions that, each, will lead to a rejection of the message as "badly =
formed and therefore invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list =
which RFC7183 then amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for =
RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message =
generation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly into =
the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and slow =
down publication anyways) to do it as separate =
documents.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what =
ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that =
brings.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For =
example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and *not* =
regenerated), this could be one option:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or =
forwarded by an intermediary)</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, =
which is calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>discard the contained messages.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard =
the message, do not process, do not forward.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a different (and more =
flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is =
enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described =
previously.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Metrics</u></b></div><div class=3D"">I have =
asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre=
 class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]  =
Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,
              and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path Calculation
              in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" class=3D"">RFC 6551</a>, =
DOI 10.17487/
              <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
class=3D"">RFC6551</a>, March 2012,
              &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</a>&gt;.</pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the =
ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">   Low-Power and Lossy =
Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints.  </pre><div =
class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are<u =
class=3D""><b class=3D""> not applicable in ad hoc networks</b></u> =E2=80=
=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since the publication of =
RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at =
(and, perhaps, using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not =
a possibility?</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) usage</u></b></div><div class=3D"">As late as =
earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing list. I =
understand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction as part =
of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol MUST =
specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to =
the list:</div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The =
network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to =
AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be =
said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel =
one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is =
creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific =
handling.</blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If protocol X relies on =
using a flooding operation, then it certainly is protocol X's =
responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at =
least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out =
that RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, =
for example, pick two different relay set selection algorithms, as that =
may produce a disconnected flooding domain).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In other words, what the authors =
propose in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</a>&nbsp;is insufficient.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple interfaces configured =
with the same address(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b></div><div class=3D"">I =
think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and =
that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to =
flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that =
just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per =
interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirectionality of =
links.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =
=E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able =
to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface =
configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces must be =
worked out.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes &amp; Gateways</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer =
that from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a =
single router,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If "half the prefix" &nbsp;is =
part of the attached network set of a single router,&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>and the other half is part of the attached network set of another =
&nbsp;single router,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>More generally, will I get a tree =
build through the network here?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also =
not explicit enough about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 =
i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D=
, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how =
the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it =
should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET =
prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is =
close to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metric =
used) within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from =
A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I =
would expect some complications) handled?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The applicability statement =
says:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   AODVv2 is designed =
for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
class=3D"">Section 9</a>.
</pre></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not a =
transit network)?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the =
big-picture issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to =
write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but =
those were the ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to =
resolve.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thomas</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:19:28 +0100
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Cc: Charlie Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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Hello Christopher,

> Am 16.03.2016 um 18:22 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>:
>=20
> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but =
that=E2=80=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on =
this list).
> =20
> But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing =
algorithm, being discussed by the authors off-list,

If we could=E2=80=99ve, I would=E2=80=99ve loved to share this with the =
list immediately. I=E2=80=99m not sure if there=E2=80=99s a procedure =
for this kind of situation we should=E2=80=99ve followed? If there is, =
I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to learn from it and do better next time.

> while in parallel assuring the list that =E2=80=9COther discussion =
about routing loops has not identified routing loop problems in the =
existing specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain below).
> =20
> I think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance =
to Proposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.

I think I understand where your worries come from. However, I do think =
our efforts to improve our communication are visible, and apart from the =
communication delay, the fact that this research exists actually =
improves my confidence in the document: It found loops that were (imho) =
pretty tricky to come up with by thinking hard about the problem alone, =
and we=E2=80=99ve been able to fix them, making AODVv2 more solid.

> =20
> (I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even write up comments on the =
perhaps one third of the draft I have read through yet.)

Personally, I=E2=80=99d be happy to go through them in chunks as well :) =
Maybe that could also speed up the back and forth of =E2=80=9Ex isn=E2=80=99=
t quite right=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Ewould y resolve the issue?=E2=80=9C =
=E2=80=9Eyes/no=E2=80=9C, which would in turn speed up the progress of =
this document? Anyhow, all feedback is very welcome.

Best regards,
Lotte Steenbrink


> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_76571450-7767-4005-81C1-99DCBD123DB4
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello Christopher,</div><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
16.03.2016 um 18:22 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but that=E2=80=
=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this =
list).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But we have a loop, a =
pretty fundamental problem in a routing algorithm, being discussed by =
the authors off-list,</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If we could=E2=80=99ve, I would=E2=80=99ve loved =
to share this with the list immediately. I=E2=80=99m not sure if =
there=E2=80=99s a procedure for this kind of situation we should=E2=80=99v=
e followed? If there is, I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to learn from it =
and do better next time.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">while in parallel =
assuring the list that =E2=80=9COther discussion about routing loops has =
not identified routing loop problems in the existing specification.=E2=80=9D=
 (see email chain below).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I think we have a real =
problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to Proposed Standard =
soon, in terms of process and confidence.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I think I understand where your worries come from. =
However, I do think our efforts to improve our communication are =
visible, and apart from the communication delay, the fact that this =
research exists actually improves my confidence in the document: It =
found loops that were (imho) pretty tricky to come up with by thinking =
hard about the problem alone, and we=E2=80=99ve been able to fix them, =
making AODVv2 more solid.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">(I still haven=E2=80=99t =
managed to even write up comments on the perhaps one third of the draft =
I have read through yet.)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Personally, I=E2=80=99d be happy to go through =
them in chunks as well :) Maybe that could also speed up the back and =
forth of =E2=80=9Ex isn=E2=80=99t quite right=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Ewould y =
resolve the issue?=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Eyes/no=E2=80=9C, which would in =
turn speed up the progress of this document? Anyhow, all feedback is =
very welcome.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Best =
regards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior =
Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence =
Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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Hi Thomas,=20

> Am 17.03.2016 um 17:00 schrieb ietf@thomasclausen.org:
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
>=20
> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
>=20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
>=20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D

Just one thing until I can go through your entire review: the conflict =
was between =E2=80=9EThere are no loops possible=E2=80=9C and =E2=80=9EThe=
re were two loops possible and we=E2=80=99ve fixed them.=E2=80=9C. =
I=E2=80=99ve written down the fixes for said loops under the description =
how they can occur.

>=20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
>=20
>=20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
>=20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
>=20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
>=20
>=20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.
>=20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
>=20
>=20
> 	o	It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.
> 		This would not be bad if the functionality offered by =
those fields was not useful
> 		=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope limited =
flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
> 		such) which may be of interest, and which require =
hop-limit.=20
> 		A hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D=
 (in terms of overhead) additional piece
> 		of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=
=80=9D metric.
>=20
> 		The only practical solution would be to re-introduce =
these functions by way of inserting a
> 		MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this =
document, and (ii) which would just
> 		serve to render messages bigger than strictly needed.
>=20
> 		Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a necessary =
requirement, if for no
> 		other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> 	o	It makes end-to-end authentication unnecessarily hard.
> 		I think Chris called this out already, but it bears =
repeating: S generates a message=20
> 		(say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated over the =
content of the message.
> 		For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the =
message has to be exactly
> 		the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in structure =
=E2=80=94 as what was generated.
>=20
> 		=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
> 		router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose =
a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
> 		in a different order).
>=20
> 		The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
> 		is to add constraints on (i) the set of elements to =
include in a signature and (ii) the
> 		order of these elements.
>=20
> 		One problem with that approach is (i): if an extension =
adds a message TLV, or an=20
> 		Address TLV, to a message, then that will not be =
=E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
> 		Rather for *each* extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates=
 e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
>=20
> 		I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to =
errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
> 		of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a =
message being generated by the
> 		source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, for example) =
would allow ICV TLVs=20
> 		(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for =
covering a message and=20
> 		extensions.
>=20
> 		=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will =
change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
> 		Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply =
zero out the value of that TLV when
> 		generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use =
Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
> 		authentication, if needed (but, see below).
>=20
> 	o	It prevents the use of more clever/advanced signature =
schemes/ICVs
> 		Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
> 		exist, and an interesting use-case can be found in also =
reactive protocols, allowing verifying
> 		not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but also the =
intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D
> 		discussed above, or something smarter).
> 		Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, =
renders that impossible (or, if used,
> 		updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
>=20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
>=20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
>=20
> Security Considerations
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
>=20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
>=20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
>=20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
>=20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
>=20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
>=20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
>=20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
>=20
> 		o	When a RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an =
ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
> 			 =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)
>=20
> 		o	When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted  (by =
the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
> 			in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added =
to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6
>=20
> 		o	When an RFC5444 packet is received, validate the =
ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,
> 			discard the contained messages.
>=20
> 		o	When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as =
destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
> 			<this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate, discard the message, do not process, do not forward.
>=20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
>=20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
>=20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
>=20
>=20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
>=20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
>=20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
>=20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
>=20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
>=20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
>> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
>=20
>=20
> And quoting an email from myself:
>> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
>=20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
>=20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
>=20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
>=20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
>=20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
>=20
> 	o	If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set =
of a single router,=20
> 		then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the =
case?
>=20
> 	o	If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network =
set of a single router,=20
> 		and the other half is part of the attached network set =
of another  single router,=20
> 		then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
>=20
> 	o	More generally, will I get a tree build through the =
network here?
>=20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
>=20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
>=20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
> 	o	If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some =
complications) handled?=20
> 	o	If not, where is it stated that this configuration is =
not possible with this protocol?
>=20
>=20
> The applicability statement says:
>=20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
>=20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
>=20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
>=20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Thomas,&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am 17.03.2016 um 17:00 schrieb =
<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Dear all,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Apologies for not having =
gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few spare cycles.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously =
offered reviews and comments, and some of those have been addressed in =
the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, but should be. I recall that =
there was some mail attempting to rebut parts of the review, and I will =
dig it out and reply to that.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed =
the latest version of the document, and full details will be =
forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a couple of big-ticket/architectural items =
that I want to address up front, as I believe that before we have those =
hammered out, it will be useless to go into details. Note, I do not =
claim that this is an exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D=
, but that=E2=80=99s as far as I have gotten in thinking this =
through.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor =
discussed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b></div><div class=3D"">Just to =
bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting and =
concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops =
possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where loops =
can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some loop =
conditions=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Just one thing until I can go through your entire =
review: the conflict was between =E2=80=9EThere are no loops possible=E2=80=
=9C and =E2=80=9EThere were two loops possible and we=E2=80=99ve fixed =
them.=E2=80=9C. I=E2=80=99ve written down the fixes for said loops under =
the description how they can occur.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in =
public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Intermediate =
Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b></div><div class=3D"">Section =
10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=9D, =
which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about =
loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source =
for loops.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in =
a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</b></u></div><div =
class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol =
control messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then =
a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated =
and transmitted.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; read some of the =
exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I =
am convinced that this is not the right way to go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at =
least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the =
RFC5444 message header useless.</b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>This would not be bad if the functionality offered by those =
fields was not useful</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. =
For example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>A =
hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D =
metric.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>The only practical solution would be to re-introduce these =
functions by way of inserting a</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this document, =
and (ii) which would just</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>serve to render messages bigger than strictly needed.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Scope limited flooding &nbsp;does seem to be a necessary =
requirement, if for no</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>I =
think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S generates =
a message&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>(say, a RREQ), and =
includes an ICV calculated over the content of the message.</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the message has =
to be exactly</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>the same =E2=80=94 not =
just in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was =
generated.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=
=9D messages means, that the intermediate</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose a =
different structure (e.g., include TLVs</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>in a different order).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>order of these elements.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>One&nbsp;problem with =
that approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or =
an&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>Address TLV, to a =
message, then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed =
e2esec TLV.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>Rather for *each* =
extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to =
be done.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94=
 and add entropy to the process</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a message =
being generated by the</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>source and *forwarded* =
(as we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for covering a =
message and&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>extensions.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will change on =
each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply zero out =
the value of that TLV when</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs =
for hop-by-hop&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more =
clever/advanced signature schemes/ICVs</u></b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Aggregate signature algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</a>)</di=
v><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing =
verifying</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>discussed above, or something smarter).</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, renders that =
impossible (or, if used,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a>)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are =
other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as immediate =
show-stoppers.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=
 do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b></div><div class=3D"">This is an always thorny =
subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the process we got a thorough =
education in how little we knew about security from the SEC-ADs, and had =
to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183. The bottom line is, that =
this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 &nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, =
either as part of the main document, or as an independent document. =
currently, that is not the case.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =
=E2=80=94 taking inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that =
was the most recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, =
however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism =
most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, =
SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that =
that:</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... message, a router =
MUST first check if the</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
message is invalid for processing by this router</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">and then proceed to give a number of =
conditions that, each, will lead to a rejection of the message as "badly =
formed and therefore invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list =
which RFC7183 then amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for =
RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message =
generation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly into =
the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and slow =
down publication anyways) to do it as separate =
documents.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what =
ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that =
brings.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For =
example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and *not* =
regenerated), this could be one option:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or =
forwarded by an intermediary)</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, =
which is calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>discard the contained messages.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard =
the message, do not process, do not forward.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a different (and more =
flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is =
enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described =
previously.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Metrics</u></b></div><div class=3D"">I have =
asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre=
 class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]  =
Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,
              and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path Calculation
              in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" class=3D"">RFC 6551</a>, =
DOI 10.17487/
              <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
class=3D"">RFC6551</a>, March 2012,
              &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</a>&gt;.</pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the =
ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">   Low-Power and Lossy =
Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints.  </pre><div =
class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are<u =
class=3D""><b class=3D""> not applicable in ad hoc networks</b></u> =E2=80=
=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since the publication of =
RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at =
(and, perhaps, using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not =
a possibility?</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) usage</u></b></div><div class=3D"">As late as =
earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing list. I =
understand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction as part =
of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol MUST =
specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to =
the list:</div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The =
network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to =
AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be =
said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel =
one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is =
creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific =
handling.</blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If protocol X relies on =
using a flooding operation, then it certainly is protocol X's =
responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at =
least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out =
that RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, =
for example, pick two different relay set selection algorithms, as that =
may produce a disconnected flooding domain).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In other words, what the authors =
propose in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</a>&nbsp;is insufficient.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple interfaces configured =
with the same address(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b></div><div class=3D"">I =
think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and =
that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to =
flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that =
just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per =
interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirectionality of =
links.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =
=E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able =
to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface =
configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces must be =
worked out.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes &amp; Gateways</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer =
that from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a =
single router,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If "half the prefix" &nbsp;is =
part of the attached network set of a single router,&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>and the other half is part of the attached network set of another =
&nbsp;single router,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>More generally, will I get a tree =
build through the network here?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also =
not explicit enough about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 =
i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D=
, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how =
the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it =
should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET =
prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is =
close to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metric =
used) within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from =
A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I =
would expect some complications) handled?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The applicability statement =
says:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   AODVv2 is designed =
for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
class=3D"">Section 9</a>.
</pre></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not a =
transit network)?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the =
big-picture issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to =
write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but =
those were the ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to =
resolve.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thomas</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">manet mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "ietf@thomasclausen.org" <ietf@thomasclausen.org>, "Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Subject: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of =
message regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.
> =20
> The issues over end to end authentication and more advanced signatures =
are valid. I need to read the given reference on aggregate signatures to =
increase my knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the =
possibilities in this field may offer a solution to the problem, but =
with some other issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).
> =20
> But the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you =
can regenerate with an incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves =
the ability to prevent messages propagating indefinitely, including =
expanding ring searches, and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 =
interval and validity times that might be useful with an expanding ring =
search (or might not).
> =20
> But the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still =
haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s =
for the moment just consider that conceptually.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft =
attempts to do an end to end of some information, not this information. =
I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised =
format is better avoided if possible). Other approaches are hop by hop =
(might as well use packet signatures) and shared key (might as well go =
hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m =
discounting as scaling terribly. In the interests of completeness =
let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating metrics, which puts us back to =
hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal either.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99=
ve seen about aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even =
apart from computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - =
someone with the perfect solution to come along.
> =20
> Which means that either we make an arbitrary choice - which will be =
disagreed with, but needs discussing first - or create something =
flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that regard constrains in others, =
e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating signatures need fixed data sizes =
(which we can do by defining a TLV that =E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with =
hop count, but that has a cost too).

I have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.

That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does =
that mean that the message grows as it is being forwarded, and that the =
recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the individual costs of each path =
segment? My understanding is, that the recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe =
sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D which should be fitting =
within a fixed size?

Thomas


> =20
> Sorry, no answers, just comments. And I=E2=80=99m not addressing =
Thomas=E2=80=99s later points here.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of ietf@thomasclausen.org =
<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:00
> To: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big =
ticket Items
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
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s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> *** WARNING ***
> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization.
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
> =20
> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
> =20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
> =20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D
> =20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
> =20
> =20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
> =20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
> =20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
> =20
> =20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.
> =20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
> =20
> =20
>             o          It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in =
the RFC5444 message header useless.
>                         This would not be bad if the functionality =
offered by those fields was not useful
>                         =E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope =
limited flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
>                         such) which may be of interest, and which =
require hop-limit.=20
>                         A hop-count field may also provide a =
=E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of overhead) additional piece
>                         of information to use conjunctively with a =
=E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.
> =20
>                         The only practical solution would be to =
re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a
>                         MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not =
specified in this document, and (ii) which would just
>                         serve to render messages bigger than strictly =
needed.
> =20
>                         Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a =
necessary requirement, if for no
>                         other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.
> =20
>             o          It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.
>                         I think Chris called this out already, but it =
bears repeating: S generates a message=20
>                         (say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated =
over the content of the message.
>                         For any recipient to be able to validate the =
ICV, the message has to be exactly
>                         the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in =
structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
>                         router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ =
may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
>                         in a different order).
> =20
>                         The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
>                         is to add constraints on (i) the set of =
elements to include in a signature and (ii) the
>                         order of these elements.
> =20
>                         One problem with that approach is (i): if an =
extension adds a message TLV, or an=20
>                         Address TLV, to a message, then that will not =
be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
>                         Rather for *each* extension developed, an =
=E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
> =20
>                         I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be =
prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
>                         of designing protocol extensions. The =
alternative, a message being generated by the
>                         source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, =
for example) would allow ICV TLVs=20
>                         (even, allow reuse of those specified for =
OLSRv2) for covering a message and=20
>                         extensions.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value =
which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
>                         Fortunately, that is relatively easy to =
handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV when
>                         generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. =
And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
>                         authentication, if needed (but, see below).
> =20
>             o          It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs
>                         Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
>                         exist, and an interesting use-case can be =
found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying
>                         not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but =
also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero =
out=E2=80=9D
>                         discussed above, or something smarter).
>                         Regeneration of messages, rather than =
forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,
>                         updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
> =20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
> =20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
> =20
> Security Considerations
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
> =20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
> =20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
> =20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
> =20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
> =20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
> =20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
> =20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
>                                      =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from =
RFC7183 here)
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
transmitted  (by the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
>                                     in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV =
Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6=

> =20
>                         o          When an RFC5444 packet is received, =
validate the ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate,
>                                     discard the contained messages.
> =20
>                         o          When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either =
as destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
>                                     <this way> and if the ICV =
doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do not =
forward.
> =20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
> =20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
> =20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
> =20
> =20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
> =20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
> =20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
> =20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
> =20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
> =20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
> =20
> And quoting an email from myself:
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
> =20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
> =20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
> =20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
> =20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
> =20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
> =20
>             o          If the whole prefix is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         then I expect to get a single RREP back, is =
that the case?
> =20
>             o          If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         and the other half is part of the attached =
network set of another  single router,=20
>                         then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
> =20
>             o          More generally, will I get a tree build through =
the network here?
> =20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
> =20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
> =20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>             o          If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect =
some complications) handled?=20
>             o          If not, where is it stated that this =
configuration is not possible with this protocol?
> =20
> =20
> The applicability statement says:
> =20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
> =20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
> =20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
> =20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
> =20
> Best,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_A27B376D-DB6C-4361-9D57-952A6DDAAF76
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of message =
regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The issues over end to =
end authentication and more advanced signatures are valid. I need to =
read the given reference on aggregate signatures to increase my =
knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the possibilities in =
this field may offer a solution to the problem, but with some other =
issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the hop count/limit =
point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you can regenerate with an =
incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves the ability to prevent =
messages propagating indefinitely, including expanding ring searches, =
and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 interval and validity times that =
might be useful with an expanding ring search (or might not).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the key issue is =
that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still haven=E2=80=99t got to =
the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s for the moment just =
consider that conceptually.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s hard to =
handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft attempts to do an end to end =
of some information, not this information. I=E2=80=99m not sure if =
that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised format is better avoided if =
possible). Other approaches are hop by hop (might as well use packet =
signatures) and shared key (might as well go hop by hop). Pairwise =
signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m discounting as scaling =
terribly. In the interests of completeness let=E2=80=99s mention not =
accumulating metrics, which puts us back to hop count and that=E2=80=99s =
not ideal either.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think =
there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99ve seen about =
aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even apart from =
computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - someone with =
the perfect solution to come along.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Which means that either =
we make an arbitrary choice - which will be disagreed with, but needs =
discussing first - or create something flexible. Unfortunately flexible =
in that regard constrains in others, e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating =
signatures need fixed data sizes (which we can do by defining a TLV that =
=E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with hop count, but that has a cost =
too).</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I =
have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.</div><div><=
br class=3D""></div><div>That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate =
metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does that mean that the message grows as it =
is being forwarded, and that the recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the =
individual costs of each path segment? My understanding is, that the =
recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D=
 which should be fitting within a fixed size?</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Sorry, no answers, just =
comments. And I=E2=80=99m not addressing Thomas=E2=80=99s later points =
here.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 March 2016 16:00<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid windowtext; padding: 1pt 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; text-align: center;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">*<strong =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">**<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></strong></span><stron=
g class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">WARNING<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></strong><strong =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization</span><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Dear all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - =
day-job leaving few spare cycles.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, =
and some of those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others =
have not, but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to =
rebut parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed the =
latest version of the document, and full details will be forthcoming. =
There=E2=80=99re a couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want =
to address up front, as I believe that before we have those hammered =
out, it will be useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that =
this is an exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but =
that=E2=80=99s as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are items =
that have been brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not =
resolved nor discussed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about =
conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere =
are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two =
situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still =
investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a =
discussion had in public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Intermediate =
Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified =
extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status =
indicated for this document.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point =
about loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential =
source for loops.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not =
documented in a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol =
control messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then =
a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated =
and transmitted.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; read some of =
the exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), =
and I am convinced that this is not the right way to go,&nbsp;<b =
class=3D"">at least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b =
class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>This would not be =
bad if the functionality offered by those fields was not useful<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it =
is. For example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>such) which may be =
of interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>A=
 hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>of information to =
use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>The only practical =
solution would be to re-introduce these functions by way of inserting =
a<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 =
which (i) is not specified in this document, and (ii) which would =
just<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>serve to render =
messages bigger than strictly needed.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Scope limited =
flooding &nbsp;does seem to be a necessary requirement, if for no<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>I=
 think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S =
generates a message&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>(say, a RREQ), and =
includes an ICV calculated over the content of the message.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>For any recipient to =
be able to validate the ICV, the message has to be exactly<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>the same =E2=80=94 =
not just in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was =
generated.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=
=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the =
intermediate<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>router =
=E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose a different structure =
(e.g., include TLVs<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>in a different =
order).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>The proposal =
from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>is to add =
constraints on (i) the set of elements to include in a signature and =
(ii) the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>order of these =
elements.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>One&nbsp;problem =
with that approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or =
an&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Address TLV, to a =
message, then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed =
e2esec TLV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Rather for *each* =
extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to =
be done.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>I=E2=80=99d say that =
this approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the =
process<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>of designing =
protocol extensions. The alternative, a message being generated by =
the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>source and =
*forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV =
TLVs&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>(even, allow reuse =
of those specified for OLSRv2) for covering a message and&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>extensions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=E2=80=9CBut what =
about the metrics value which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may =
say?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Fortunately, that is =
relatively easy to handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV =
when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>generating or =
verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for =
hop-by-hop&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>authentication, if =
needed (but, see below).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Aggregate signature =
algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</a>)<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>exist, and an =
interesting use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing =
verifying<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=
=9D the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the =
appropriate =E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>discussed above, or =
something smarter).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Regeneration of =
messages, rather than forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if =
used,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">There are other reasons, but the above are those that =
jump at me as immediate show-stoppers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I do honestly not see what possible =
benefit there is from =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see =
very clear inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. =
Insisting on =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =
=E2=80=9Cnon-general workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is an always =
thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the process we got a =
thorough education in how little we knew about security from the =
SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183. The =
bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 =
&nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=
=94 taking inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was =
the most recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, =
however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism =
most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, =
SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out =
that that:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... message, a =
router MUST first check if the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
message is invalid for processing by this router<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">and then proceed to give a number of =
conditions that, each, will lead to a rejection of the message as "badly =
formed and therefore invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list =
which RFC7183 then amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for =
RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message =
generation.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include =
that directly into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more =
overhead (and slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate =
documents.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of =
what ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">For example (with the assumption that =
messages are *forwarded* and *not* regenerated), this could be one =
option:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take =
inspiration from RFC7183 here)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or forwarded by =
an intermediary)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>in =
an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>discard the =
contained messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>&lt;this way&gt; and =
if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not =
process, do not forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is enabled by the =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described previously.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Metrics</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I have asked this =
numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am escalating this =
again. Why is this document having a normative reference to RFC6551?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]&nbsp; =
Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RFC 6551</a>, DOI 10.17487/<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">RFC6551</a>, March 2012,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</a>&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And =
the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique =
characteristics<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; compared with traditional wired and ad hoc =
networks that require the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; specification of new routing metrics and =
constraints.&nbsp; <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that =
these metrics are<b class=3D""><u class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>not applicable in ad hoc =
networks</u></b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94=
 and, I am wondering, what has changed since the publication of RFC6551 =
to suddenly make these applicable?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at (and, =
perhaps, using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a =
possibility?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) =
usage</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 =
reared its head again on the mailing list. I understand that the authors =
are set on using flooding reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If =
that is the case, then this protocol MUST specify that flooding =
reduction.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t =
work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The network does not and fundamentally =
cannot offer multicast suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, =
but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in =
5444 packets, and those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for =
suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. =
That needs AODVv2 specific handling.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If protocol X relies on using a flooding =
operation, then it certainly is protocol X's responsibility to =
&nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at least,&nbsp;the =
requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct functioning of =
protocol X.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve =
previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree of =
configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different relay =
set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected flooding =
domain).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">In other words, what the authors propose in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</a>&nbsp;is insufficient.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple interfaces =
configured with the same address(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I think that it has been established that the ability to use =
the same address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s =
not clear to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor =
that the =E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for =
example, will it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two =
interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to =
flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that =
just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per =
interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirectionality of =
links.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I have not worked out all the details of how this =
impacts this protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially =
when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, =
then the interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple =
interfaces must be worked out.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes &amp; =
Gateways</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A question to my mind, and I am not sure =
I know how to answer that from reading the draft since it is not =
discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a =
RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>If the =
whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>then I expect to get =
a single RREP back, is that the case?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>If "half =
the prefix" &nbsp;is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>and the other half =
is part of the attached network set of another &nbsp;single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>then I expect two =
RREPs, is that the case?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>More =
generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also =
not explicit enough about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 =
i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D=
, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how =
the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it =
should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET =
prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close =
to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metric used) =
within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from A to =
B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>If yes, =
how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications) =
handled?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The applicability =
statement says:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 is designed =
for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; i.e., non-transit networks or those not =
connected to the internet.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; attached to external networks, as discussed in =
<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">Section =
9</a>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a =
stub network (and not a transit network)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the big-picture =
issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. =
I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but those were the =
ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><p style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">***************************************************************=
*****<br class=3D"">This email and any attachments are confidential to =
the intended<br class=3D"">recipient and may also be privileged. If you =
are not the intended<br class=3D"">recipient please delete it from your =
system and notify the sender.<br class=3D"">You should not copy it or =
use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br class=3D"">distribute its =
contents to any other person.<br =
class=3D"">***************************************************************=
*****</p></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: "ietf@thomasclausen.org" <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
Thread-Topic: Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:45:17 +0100
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Cc: Charles Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, manet <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:40, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> There is a problem when you have information that isn=E2=80=99t =
public. Though if it=E2=80=99s sent to you wearing IETF hat, is it =
covered by Note Well?

This is actually an interesting point. As one of the WG chairs is also =
an author, I would assume that he=E2=80=99d have been a recipient of =
this information, and that therefore very much should be covered by Note =
Well?

> But let=E2=80=99s suppose you=E2=80=99ve decided you can=E2=80=99t =
give details. You probably can still say =E2=80=9CSomeone has raised an =
issue with us, we=E2=80=99re trying to get it handled.=E2=80=9D. What =
you (one) can definitely do is bear that in mind and not makes =
statements that will later appear to be at odds with what you then knew.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m still not clear as to whether there was a late discovered =
real problem that needed fixing.

I=E2=80=99m with you on that one, coming down on the =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6nee=
d to be convinced=E2=80=9D side of the fence, however.

Thomas
=20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de =
<mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:19
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Charlie Perkins; manet
> Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> Hello Christopher,
> =20
> Am 16.03.2016 um 18:22 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
> =20
> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but =
that=E2=80=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on =
this list).
> =20
> But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing =
algorithm, being discussed by the authors off-list,
> =20
> If we could=E2=80=99ve, I would=E2=80=99ve loved to share this with =
the list immediately. I=E2=80=99m not sure if there=E2=80=99s a =
procedure for this kind of situation we should=E2=80=99ve followed? If =
there is, I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to learn from it and do better =
next time.
>=20
>=20
> while in parallel assuring the list that =E2=80=9COther discussion =
about routing loops has not identified routing loop problems in the =
existing specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain below).
> =20
> I think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance =
to Proposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.
> =20
> I think I understand where your worries come from. However, I do think =
our efforts to improve our communication are visible, and apart from the =
communication delay, the fact that this research exists actually =
improves my confidence in the document: It found loops that were (imho) =
pretty tricky to come up with by thinking hard about the problem alone, =
and we=E2=80=99ve been able to fix them, making AODVv2 more solid.
>=20
>=20
> =20
> (I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even write up comments on the =
perhaps one third of the draft I have read through yet.)
> =20
> Personally, I=E2=80=99d be happy to go through them in chunks as well =
:) Maybe that could also speed up the back and forth of =E2=80=9Ex =
isn=E2=80=99t quite right=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Ewould y resolve the =
issue?=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Eyes/no=E2=80=9C, which would in turn speed up =
the progress of this document? Anyhow, all feedback is very welcome.
> =20
> Best regards,
> Lotte Steenbrink
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>

--Apple-Mail=_37498805-7607-4E10-A895-32EC22D7D3D5
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:40, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">There is a problem when you have information that isn=E2=80=99t=
 public. Though if it=E2=80=99s sent to you wearing IETF hat, is it =
covered by Note Well?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>This is actually an interesting point. As one of the WG =
chairs is also an author, I would assume that he=E2=80=99d have been a =
recipient of this information, and that therefore very much should be =
covered by Note Well?</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But let=E2=80=99s suppose you=E2=80=99ve =
decided you can=E2=80=99t give details. You probably can still say =
=E2=80=9CSomeone has raised an issue with us, we=E2=80=99re trying to =
get it handled.=E2=80=9D. What you (one) can definitely do is bear that =
in mind and not makes statements that will later appear to be at odds =
with what you then knew.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m still not =
clear as to whether there was a late discovered real problem that needed =
fixing.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I=E2=80=99=
m with you on that one, coming down on the =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6need to be =
convinced=E2=80=9D side of the fence, however.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thomas</div><div><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lotte Steenbrink [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:19<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Charlie Perkins; manet<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] AODVv2 =
responses to recent comments<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Hello Christopher,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Am 16.03.2016 um =
18:22 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but that=E2=80=
=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this =
list).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental =
problem in a routing algorithm, being discussed by the authors =
off-list,</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">If we could=E2=80=99ve, I would=E2=80=99ve loved to =
share this with the list immediately. I=E2=80=99m not sure if there=E2=80=99=
s a procedure for this kind of situation we should=E2=80=99ve followed? =
If there is, I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to learn from it and do =
better next time.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">while in parallel assuring the list that =E2=80=9COther =
discussion about routing loops has not identified routing loop problems =
in the existing specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain =
below).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to =
Proposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I think I understand where your worries come from. =
However, I do think our efforts to improve our communication are =
visible, and apart from the communication delay, the fact that this =
research exists actually improves my confidence in the document: It =
found loops that were (imho) pretty tricky to come up with by thinking =
hard about the problem alone, and we=E2=80=99ve been able to fix them, =
making AODVv2 more solid.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">(I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even =
write up comments on the perhaps one third of the draft I have read =
through yet.)</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Personally, I=E2=80=99d be happy to go through them =
in chunks as well :) Maybe that could also speed up the back and forth =
of =E2=80=9Ex isn=E2=80=99t quite right=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Ewould y =
resolve the issue?=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Eyes/no=E2=80=9C, which would in =
turn speed up the progress of this document? Anyhow, all feedback is =
very welcome.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
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class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
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class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
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> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:44, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set of costs. =
As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. One cost =
is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated signatures =
problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational load.

Again, by people much smarter than I, I have been told that =E2=80=9Cit=E2=
=80=99s not free, but it=E2=80=99s not as bad as it used to be =
either=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s probably as far as I am going on that =
topic. Suffice to say, though, that it=E2=80=99s something that =
absolutely must be supported and possible, IMO


> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org> =
[mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:38
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: [manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
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s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
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s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> =20
> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> =
wrote:
> =20
> I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of =
message regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.
> =20
> The issues over end to end authentication and more advanced signatures =
are valid. I need to read the given reference on aggregate signatures to =
increase my knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the =
possibilities in this field may offer a solution to the problem, but =
with some other issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).
> =20
> But the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you =
can regenerate with an incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves =
the ability to prevent messages propagating indefinitely, including =
expanding ring searches, and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 =
interval and validity times that might be useful with an expanding ring =
search (or might not).
> =20
> But the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still =
haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s =
for the moment just consider that conceptually.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft =
attempts to do an end to end of some information, not this information. =
I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised =
format is better avoided if possible). Other approaches are hop by hop =
(might as well use packet signatures) and shared key (might as well go =
hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m =
discounting as scaling terribly. In the interests of completeness =
let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating metrics, which puts us back to =
hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal either.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99=
ve seen about aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even =
apart from computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - =
someone with the perfect solution to come along.
> =20
> Which means that either we make an arbitrary choice - which will be =
disagreed with, but needs discussing first - or create something =
flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that regard constrains in others, =
e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating signatures need fixed data sizes =
(which we can do by defining a TLV that =E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with =
hop count, but that has a cost too).
> =20
> I have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does =
that mean that the message grows as it is being forwarded, and that the =
recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the individual costs of each path =
segment? My understanding is, that the recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe =
sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D which should be fitting =
within a fixed size?
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Sorry, no answers, just comments. And I=E2=80=99m not addressing =
Thomas=E2=80=99s later points here.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of ietf@thomasclausen.org =
<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:00
> To: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big =
ticket Items
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
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s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> *** WARNING ***
> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization.
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
> =20
> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
> =20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
> =20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D
> =20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
> =20
> =20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
> =20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
> =20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
> =20
> =20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.
> =20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
> =20
> =20
>             o          It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in =
the RFC5444 message header useless.
>                         This would not be bad if the functionality =
offered by those fields was not useful
>                         =E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope =
limited flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
>                         such) which may be of interest, and which =
require hop-limit.=20
>                         A hop-count field may also provide a =
=E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of overhead) additional piece
>                         of information to use conjunctively with a =
=E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.
> =20
>                         The only practical solution would be to =
re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a
>                         MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not =
specified in this document, and (ii) which would just
>                         serve to render messages bigger than strictly =
needed.
> =20
>                         Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a =
necessary requirement, if for no
>                         other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.
> =20
>             o          It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.
>                         I think Chris called this out already, but it =
bears repeating: S generates a message=20
>                         (say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated =
over the content of the message.
>                         For any recipient to be able to validate the =
ICV, the message has to be exactly
>                         the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in =
structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
>                         router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ =
may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
>                         in a different order).
> =20
>                         The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
>                         is to add constraints on (i) the set of =
elements to include in a signature and (ii) the
>                         order of these elements.
> =20
>                         One problem with that approach is (i): if an =
extension adds a message TLV, or an=20
>                         Address TLV, to a message, then that will not =
be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
>                         Rather for *each* extension developed, an =
=E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
> =20
>                         I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be =
prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
>                         of designing protocol extensions. The =
alternative, a message being generated by the
>                         source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, =
for example) would allow ICV TLVs=20
>                         (even, allow reuse of those specified for =
OLSRv2) for covering a message and=20
>                         extensions.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value =
which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
>                         Fortunately, that is relatively easy to =
handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV when
>                         generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. =
And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
>                         authentication, if needed (but, see below).
> =20
>             o          It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs
>                         Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
>                         exist, and an interesting use-case can be =
found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying
>                         not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but =
also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero =
out=E2=80=9D
>                         discussed above, or something smarter).
>                         Regeneration of messages, rather than =
forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,
>                         updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
> =20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
> =20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
> =20
> Security Considerations
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
> =20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
> =20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
> =20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
> =20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
> =20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
> =20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
> =20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
>                                      =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from =
RFC7183 here)
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
transmitted  (by the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
>                                     in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV =
Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6=

> =20
>                         o          When an RFC5444 packet is received, =
validate the ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate,
>                                     discard the contained messages.
> =20
>                         o          When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either =
as destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
>                                     <this way> and if the ICV =
doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do not =
forward.
> =20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
> =20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
> =20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
> =20
> =20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
> =20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
> =20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
> =20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
> =20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
> =20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
> =20
> And quoting an email from myself:
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
> =20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
> =20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
> =20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
> =20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
> =20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
> =20
>             o          If the whole prefix is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         then I expect to get a single RREP back, is =
that the case?
> =20
>             o          If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         and the other half is part of the attached =
network set of another  single router,=20
>                         then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
> =20
>             o          More generally, will I get a tree build through =
the network here?
> =20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
> =20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
> =20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>             o          If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect =
some complications) handled?=20
>             o          If not, where is it stated that this =
configuration is not possible with this protocol?
> =20
> =20
> The applicability statement says:
> =20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
> =20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
> =20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
> =20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
> =20
> Best,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:44, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set =
of costs. As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. =
One cost is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated =
signatures problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational =
load.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Again, by people much smarter than I, I have been =
told that =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=99s not free, but it=E2=80=99s not as bad as =
it used to be either=E2=80=9D. That=E2=80=99s probably as far as I am =
going on that topic. Suffice to say, though, that it=E2=80=99s something =
that absolutely must be supported and possible, IMO</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: Message integrity and =
message mutability (was RE: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - =
a couple of big ticket Items)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
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class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
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center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
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rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at =
17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of message =
regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The issues over end to =
end authentication and more advanced signatures are valid. I need to =
read the given reference on aggregate signatures to increase my =
knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the possibilities in =
this field may offer a solution to the problem, but with some other =
issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the hop count/limit =
point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you can regenerate with an =
incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves the ability to prevent =
messages propagating indefinitely, including expanding ring searches, =
and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 interval and validity times that =
might be useful with an expanding ring search (or might not).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the key issue is =
that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still haven=E2=80=99t got to =
the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s for the moment just =
consider that conceptually.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s hard to =
handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft attempts to do an end to end =
of some information, not this information. I=E2=80=99m not sure if =
that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised format is better avoided if =
possible). Other approaches are hop by hop (might as well use packet =
signatures) and shared key (might as well go hop by hop). Pairwise =
signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m discounting as scaling =
terribly. In the interests of completeness let=E2=80=99s mention not =
accumulating metrics, which puts us back to hop count and that=E2=80=99s =
not ideal either.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think =
there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99ve seen about =
aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even apart from =
computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - someone with =
the perfect solution to come along.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Which means that either =
we make an arbitrary choice - which will be disagreed with, but needs =
discussing first - or create something flexible. Unfortunately flexible =
in that regard constrains in others, e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating =
signatures need fixed data sizes (which we can do by defining a TLV that =
=E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with hop count, but that has a cost =
too).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I have been told by people much more well versed in this than =
I in cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate =
metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does that mean that the message grows as it =
is being forwarded, and that the recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the =
individual costs of each path segment? My understanding is, that the =
recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D=
 which should be fitting within a fixed size?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Sorry, no answers, just comments. And =
I=E2=80=99m not addressing Thomas=E2=80=99s later points =
here.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D"">Senior Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: =
Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:00<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket =
Items</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; =
padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border: =
1pt solid windowtext; padding: 1pt 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">*<strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">**</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</b></span></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">WARNING</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization</span><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Dear all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job =
leaving few spare cycles.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of those have =
been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, but should =
be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut parts of the =
review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed the =
latest version of the document, and full details will be forthcoming. =
There=E2=80=99re a couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want =
to address up front, as I believe that before we have those hammered =
out, it will be useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that =
this is an exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but =
that=E2=80=99s as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are items =
that have been brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not =
resolved nor discussed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=
=99 worry about conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors =
on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to =
fix two situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are =
still investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a =
discussion had in public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvague=
ly specified extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended =
status indicated for this document.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated =
to the point about loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a =
potential source for loops.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in =
a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me =
understand that protocol control messages are *not* forwarded, but are =
consumed at each hop, then a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the =
same content is generated and transmitted.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; =
read some of the exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, =
and others), and I am convinced that this is not the right way to =
go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>This would not be bad if =
the functionality offered by those fields was not useful<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For =
example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>A=
 hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of information to use =
conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The only practical solution =
would be to re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which =
(i) is not specified in this document, and (ii) which would just<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>serve to render messages =
bigger than strictly needed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Scope limited flooding =
&nbsp;does seem to be a necessary requirement, if for no<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=
 think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S =
generates a message&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(say, a RREQ), and includes =
an ICV calculated over the content of the message.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>For any recipient to be =
able to validate the ICV, the message has to be exactly<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the same =E2=80=94 not just =
in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D=
 rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the =
intermediate<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=
=80=9D the RREQ may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in a different order).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>order of these =
elements.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>One&nbsp;problem with that =
approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or an&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Address TLV, to a message, =
then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec =
TLV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Rather for *each* extension =
developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be =
done.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this =
approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the =
process<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of designing protocol =
extensions. The alternative, a message being generated by the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>source and *forwarded* (as =
we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(even, allow reuse of those =
specified for OLSRv2) for covering a message and&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>extensions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the =
metrics value which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fortunately, that is =
relatively easy to handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV =
when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>generating or verifying the =
ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Aggregate signature =
algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</span></=
a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discussed above, or =
something smarter).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Regeneration of messages, =
rather than forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">There are other reasons, but the above =
are those that jump at me as immediate show-stoppers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I do honestly not see what possible =
benefit there is from =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see =
very clear inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. =
Insisting on =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =
=E2=80=9Cnon-general workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This =
is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the process =
we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security from =
the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183. The =
bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 =
&nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=
=94 taking inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was =
the most recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, =
however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism =
most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, =
SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As =
an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... =
message, a router MUST first check if the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; message is invalid =
for processing by this router<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">and =
then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead to a =
rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I =
would include that directly into the protocol specifications. It turned =
out to be more overhead (and slow down publication anyways) to do it as =
separate documents.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what =
ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">For example (with the assumption that =
messages are *forwarded* and *not* regenerated), this could be one =
option:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take =
inspiration from RFC7183 here)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or forwarded by =
an intermediary)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in =
an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discard the contained =
messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the =
ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do =
not forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is a different (and more flexible?) =
model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=
=9D end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is enabled by the =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described previously.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Metrics</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]&nbsp; =
Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">RFC 6551</span></a>, DOI 10.17487/<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">RFC6551</span></a>, March 2012,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</span></a>&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the =
ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
specification of new routing metrics and constraints.&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that =
these metrics are<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</u></b></span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">not =
applicable in ad hoc networks</u></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 and, I am =
wondering, what has changed since the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly =
make these applicable?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, =
using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a =
possibility?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Either=
 way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) =
usage</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As late as earlier =
this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing list. I =
understand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction as part =
of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol MUST =
specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to =
the list:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The =
network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to =
AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be =
said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel =
one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is =
creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If protocol X relies =
on using a flooding operation, then it certainly is protocol X's =
responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at =
least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that =
RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for =
example, pick two different relay set selection algorithms, as that may =
produce a disconnected flooding domain).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In other words, what the authors propose =
in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</span></a>&nbsp;is insufficient.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple =
interfaces configured with the same address(es) - &amp; =
RFC6621</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and =
that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to =
flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that =
just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per =
interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirectionality of =
links.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I have not worked out all the details of =
how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. =
Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use =
RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints when =
faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes =
&amp; Gateways</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A =
question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from =
reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =
=E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a =
/&lt;128 in IPv6)?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If the =
whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If "half =
the prefix" &nbsp;is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and the other half is part =
of the attached network set of another &nbsp;single router,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect two RREPs, is =
that the case?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>More =
generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also =
not explicit enough about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 =
i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D=
, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how =
the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it =
should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET =
prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close =
to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metric used) =
within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from A to =
B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If yes, =
how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications) =
handled?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The applicability statement says:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 is designed =
for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; i.e., non-transit networks or those not =
connected to the internet.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; attached to external networks, as discussed in =
<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Section 9</span></a>.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I believe that the scenario I describe is =
indeed a stub network (and not a transit network)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the big-picture =
issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. =
I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but those were the =
ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-spacing: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***************************************************************=
*****<br class=3D"">This email and any attachments are confidential to =
the intended<br class=3D"">recipient and may also be privileged. If you =
are not the intended<br class=3D"">recipient please delete it from your =
system and notify the sender.<br class=3D"">You should not copy it or =
use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br class=3D"">distribute its =
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Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Hi all,

> Am 17.03.2016 um 17:44 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>:
>=20
> Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set of costs. =
As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. One cost =
is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated signatures =
problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational load.

For the record, Thomas=E2=80=99 understanding is correct; the cost is =
one aggregated value.=20

Best regards,=20
Lotte Steenrbink

> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org> =
[mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:38
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: [manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
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>=20
> =20
> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> =
wrote:
> =20
> I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of =
message regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.
> =20
> The issues over end to end authentication and more advanced signatures =
are valid. I need to read the given reference on aggregate signatures to =
increase my knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the =
possibilities in this field may offer a solution to the problem, but =
with some other issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).
> =20
> But the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you =
can regenerate with an incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves =
the ability to prevent messages propagating indefinitely, including =
expanding ring searches, and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 =
interval and validity times that might be useful with an expanding ring =
search (or might not).
> =20
> But the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still =
haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s =
for the moment just consider that conceptually.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft =
attempts to do an end to end of some information, not this information. =
I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised =
format is better avoided if possible). Other approaches are hop by hop =
(might as well use packet signatures) and shared key (might as well go =
hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m =
discounting as scaling terribly. In the interests of completeness =
let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating metrics, which puts us back to =
hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal either.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99=
ve seen about aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even =
apart from computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - =
someone with the perfect solution to come along.
> =20
> Which means that either we make an arbitrary choice - which will be =
disagreed with, but needs discussing first - or create something =
flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that regard constrains in others, =
e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating signatures need fixed data sizes =
(which we can do by defining a TLV that =E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with =
hop count, but that has a cost too).
> =20
> I have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does =
that mean that the message grows as it is being forwarded, and that the =
recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the individual costs of each path =
segment? My understanding is, that the recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe =
sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D which should be fitting =
within a fixed size?
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Sorry, no answers, just comments. And I=E2=80=99m not addressing =
Thomas=E2=80=99s later points here.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
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>=20
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of ietf@thomasclausen.org =
<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:00
> To: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big =
ticket Items
> =20
> =20
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> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
> =20
> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
> =20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
> =20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D
> =20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
> =20
> =20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
> =20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
> =20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
> =20
> =20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.
> =20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
> =20
> =20
>             o          It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in =
the RFC5444 message header useless.
>                         This would not be bad if the functionality =
offered by those fields was not useful
>                         =E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope =
limited flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
>                         such) which may be of interest, and which =
require hop-limit.=20
>                         A hop-count field may also provide a =
=E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of overhead) additional piece
>                         of information to use conjunctively with a =
=E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.
> =20
>                         The only practical solution would be to =
re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a
>                         MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not =
specified in this document, and (ii) which would just
>                         serve to render messages bigger than strictly =
needed.
> =20
>                         Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a =
necessary requirement, if for no
>                         other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.
> =20
>             o          It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.
>                         I think Chris called this out already, but it =
bears repeating: S generates a message=20
>                         (say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated =
over the content of the message.
>                         For any recipient to be able to validate the =
ICV, the message has to be exactly
>                         the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in =
structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
>                         router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ =
may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
>                         in a different order).
> =20
>                         The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
>                         is to add constraints on (i) the set of =
elements to include in a signature and (ii) the
>                         order of these elements.
> =20
>                         One problem with that approach is (i): if an =
extension adds a message TLV, or an=20
>                         Address TLV, to a message, then that will not =
be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
>                         Rather for *each* extension developed, an =
=E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
> =20
>                         I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be =
prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
>                         of designing protocol extensions. The =
alternative, a message being generated by the
>                         source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, =
for example) would allow ICV TLVs=20
>                         (even, allow reuse of those specified for =
OLSRv2) for covering a message and=20
>                         extensions.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value =
which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
>                         Fortunately, that is relatively easy to =
handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV when
>                         generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. =
And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
>                         authentication, if needed (but, see below).
> =20
>             o          It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs
>                         Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
>                         exist, and an interesting use-case can be =
found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying
>                         not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but =
also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero =
out=E2=80=9D
>                         discussed above, or something smarter).
>                         Regeneration of messages, rather than =
forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,
>                         updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
> =20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
> =20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
> =20
> Security Considerations
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
> =20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
> =20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
> =20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
> =20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
> =20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
> =20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
> =20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
>                                      =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from =
RFC7183 here)
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
transmitted  (by the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
>                                     in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV =
Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6=

> =20
>                         o          When an RFC5444 packet is received, =
validate the ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate,
>                                     discard the contained messages.
> =20
>                         o          When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either =
as destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
>                                     <this way> and if the ICV =
doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do not =
forward.
> =20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
> =20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
> =20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
> =20
> =20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
> =20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
> =20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
> =20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
> =20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
> =20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
> =20
> And quoting an email from myself:
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
> =20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
> =20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
> =20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
> =20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
> =20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
> =20
>             o          If the whole prefix is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         then I expect to get a single RREP back, is =
that the case?
> =20
>             o          If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         and the other half is part of the attached =
network set of another  single router,=20
>                         then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
> =20
>             o          More generally, will I get a tree build through =
the network here?
> =20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
> =20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
> =20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>             o          If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect =
some complications) handled?=20
>             o          If not, where is it stated that this =
configuration is not possible with this protocol?
> =20
> =20
> The applicability statement says:
> =20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
> =20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
> =20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
> =20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
> =20
> Best,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am 17.03.2016 um 17:44 schrieb =
Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set =
of costs. As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. =
One cost is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated =
signatures problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational =
load.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>For the record, Thomas=E2=80=99 understanding is =
correct; the cost is one aggregated value.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Best regards,&nbsp;</div><div>Lotte =
Steenrbink</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior =
Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence =
Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
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font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
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class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
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139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: Message integrity and =
message mutability (was RE: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - =
a couple of big ticket Items)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at =
17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of message =
regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The issues over end to =
end authentication and more advanced signatures are valid. I need to =
read the given reference on aggregate signatures to increase my =
knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the possibilities in =
this field may offer a solution to the problem, but with some other =
issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the hop count/limit =
point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you can regenerate with an =
incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves the ability to prevent =
messages propagating indefinitely, including expanding ring searches, =
and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 interval and validity times that =
might be useful with an expanding ring search (or might not).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the key issue is =
that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still haven=E2=80=99t got to =
the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s for the moment just =
consider that conceptually.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s hard to =
handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft attempts to do an end to end =
of some information, not this information. I=E2=80=99m not sure if =
that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised format is better avoided if =
possible). Other approaches are hop by hop (might as well use packet =
signatures) and shared key (might as well go hop by hop). Pairwise =
signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m discounting as scaling =
terribly. In the interests of completeness let=E2=80=99s mention not =
accumulating metrics, which puts us back to hop count and that=E2=80=99s =
not ideal either.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think =
there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99ve seen about =
aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even apart from =
computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - someone with =
the perfect solution to come along.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Which means that either =
we make an arbitrary choice - which will be disagreed with, but needs =
discussing first - or create something flexible. Unfortunately flexible =
in that regard constrains in others, e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating =
signatures need fixed data sizes (which we can do by defining a TLV that =
=E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with hop count, but that has a cost =
too).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I have been told by people much more well versed in this than =
I in cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate =
metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does that mean that the message grows as it =
is being forwarded, and that the recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the =
individual costs of each path segment? My understanding is, that the =
recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D=
 which should be fitting within a fixed size?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Sorry, no answers, just comments. And =
I=E2=80=99m not addressing Thomas=E2=80=99s later points =
here.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D"">Senior Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: =
Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">manet [<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:00<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket =
Items</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; =
padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border: =
1pt solid windowtext; padding: 1pt 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">*<strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">**</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</b></span></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">WARNING</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization</span><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Dear all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job =
leaving few spare cycles.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of those have =
been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, but should =
be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut parts of the =
review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed the =
latest version of the document, and full details will be forthcoming. =
There=E2=80=99re a couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want =
to address up front, as I believe that before we have those hammered =
out, it will be useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that =
this is an exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but =
that=E2=80=99s as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are items =
that have been brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not =
resolved nor discussed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=
=99 worry about conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors =
on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to =
fix two situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are =
still investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a =
discussion had in public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvague=
ly specified extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended =
status indicated for this document.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated =
to the point about loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a =
potential source for loops.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in =
a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me =
understand that protocol control messages are *not* forwarded, but are =
consumed at each hop, then a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the =
same content is generated and transmitted.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; =
read some of the exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, =
and others), and I am convinced that this is not the right way to =
go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>This would not be bad if =
the functionality offered by those fields was not useful<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For =
example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>A=
 hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of information to use =
conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The only practical solution =
would be to re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which =
(i) is not specified in this document, and (ii) which would just<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>serve to render messages =
bigger than strictly needed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Scope limited flooding =
&nbsp;does seem to be a necessary requirement, if for no<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=
 think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S =
generates a message&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(say, a RREQ), and includes =
an ICV calculated over the content of the message.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>For any recipient to be =
able to validate the ICV, the message has to be exactly<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the same =E2=80=94 not just =
in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D=
 rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the =
intermediate<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=
=80=9D the RREQ may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in a different order).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>order of these =
elements.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>One&nbsp;problem with that =
approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or an&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Address TLV, to a message, =
then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec =
TLV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Rather for *each* extension =
developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be =
done.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this =
approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the =
process<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of designing protocol =
extensions. The alternative, a message being generated by the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>source and *forwarded* (as =
we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(even, allow reuse of those =
specified for OLSRv2) for covering a message and&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>extensions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the =
metrics value which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fortunately, that is =
relatively easy to handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV =
when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>generating or verifying the =
ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Aggregate signature =
algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</span></=
a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discussed above, or =
something smarter).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Regeneration of messages, =
rather than forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">There are other reasons, but the above =
are those that jump at me as immediate show-stoppers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I do honestly not see what possible =
benefit there is from =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see =
very clear inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. =
Insisting on =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =
=E2=80=9Cnon-general workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This =
is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the process =
we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security from =
the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183. The =
bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 =
&nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=
=94 taking inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was =
the most recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, =
however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism =
most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, =
SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As =
an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... =
message, a router MUST first check if the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; message is invalid =
for processing by this router<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">and =
then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead to a =
rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I =
would include that directly into the protocol specifications. It turned =
out to be more overhead (and slow down publication anyways) to do it as =
separate documents.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what =
ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">For example (with the assumption that =
messages are *forwarded* and *not* regenerated), this could be one =
option:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take =
inspiration from RFC7183 here)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or forwarded by =
an intermediary)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in =
an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discard the contained =
messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the =
ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do =
not forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is a different (and more flexible?) =
model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=
=9D end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is enabled by the =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described previously.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Metrics</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]&nbsp; =
Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">RFC 6551</span></a>, DOI 10.17487/<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">RFC6551</span></a>, March 2012,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</span></a>&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the =
ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
word-wrap: break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
specification of new routing metrics and constraints.&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that =
these metrics are<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</u></b></span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">not =
applicable in ad hoc networks</u></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 and, I am =
wondering, what has changed since the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly =
make these applicable?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, =
using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a =
possibility?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Either=
 way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) =
usage</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As late as earlier =
this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing list. I =
understand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction as part =
of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol MUST =
specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to =
the list:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The =
network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to =
AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be =
said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel =
one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is =
creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If protocol X relies =
on using a flooding operation, then it certainly is protocol X's =
responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at =
least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that =
RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for =
example, pick two different relay set selection algorithms, as that may =
produce a disconnected flooding domain).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In other words, what the authors propose =
in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</span></a>&nbsp;is insufficient.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple =
interfaces configured with the same address(es) - &amp; =
RFC6621</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and =
that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to =
flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that =
just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per =
interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirectionality of =
links.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I have not worked out all the details of =
how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. =
Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use =
RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints when =
faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes =
&amp; Gateways</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">A =
question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from =
reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =
=E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a =
/&lt;128 in IPv6)?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If the =
whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If "half =
the prefix" &nbsp;is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and the other half is part =
of the attached network set of another &nbsp;single router,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect two RREPs, is =
that the case?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>More =
generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also =
not explicit enough about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 =
i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D=
, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how =
the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it =
should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET =
prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close =
to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metric used) =
within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from A to =
B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If yes, =
how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications) =
handled?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The applicability statement says:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 is designed =
for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; i.e., non-transit networks or those not =
connected to the internet.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; attached to external networks, as discussed in =
<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Section 9</span></a>.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I believe that the scenario I describe is =
indeed a stub network (and not a transit network)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the big-picture =
issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. =
I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but those were the =
ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; widows: auto; =
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style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***************************************************************=
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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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> On 17 Mar 2016, at 18:04, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> OK, so we have a message that mutates by:
> - Modifying hop count/limit.
> - Modifying a metric value.
> Anything else?
> =20
> As mutating (other than hop count/limit) messages aren=E2=80=99t =
covered by 5444 or any derivative document (but only recommended =
against, not banned) that you may need to make the message otherwise =
immutable (no deconstruction and rebuilding, other than guaranteed =
unchanging) that would have to be specified by AODVv2. (Easy to say, but =
needs saying.)

With you so far.

> Then that information is not in a guaranteed fixed location given by a =
simple offset. So any signature algorithm that finds it and ignores it =
or aggregates on it is specific to OLSRv2.

Surely you mean AODVv2

> So standard 7182 ICVs don=E2=80=99t do the job, you would need an =
AODVv2 specialised variant. Which is the sort of thing that the message =
specific TLV space is there for, I=E2=80=99d be strongly against a =
=E2=80=9Cbut ignore the value of this specific TLV should it occur=E2=80=9D=
 being in the general space. However it can easily be defined by =
reference to 7182 (=E2=80=9Cthis TLV is like that TLV, except if an X =
TLV is present, set its value field to zero=E2=80=9D).
> =20
> Messy, but could work.

Not that messy, actually, although clearly not as nice as =E2=80=9Cfixed =
offset=E2=80=9D.

That said, I am arguing for the base spec being:

	=E2=80=9Cmake the message otherwise immutable (no deconstruction =
and rebuilding, other=20
	 than guaranteed unchanging)=E2=80=9D which is afforded by =
forwarding

			+

	RFC7182 Timestamps and ICVs.

			+

	RFC7183 style text bringing it all together.

The =E2=80=9Caggregated signatures around mutable field=E2=80=9D would =
very be an experimental extension.

What I object to is, if the base spec specifically renders such =
extensions impossible


> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de =
<mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:48
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>; Mobile Ad =
Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
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s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> Hi all,
> =20
> Am 17.03.2016 um 17:44 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
> =20
> Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set of costs. =
As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. One cost =
is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated signatures =
problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational load.
> =20
> For the record, Thomas=E2=80=99 understanding is correct; the cost is =
one aggregated value.=20
> =20
> Best regards,=20
> Lotte Steenrbink
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org> =
[mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:38
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: [manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
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external partner or the internet.
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attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
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>=20
> =20
> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> =
wrote:
> =20
> I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of =
message regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.
> =20
> The issues over end to end authentication and more advanced signatures =
are valid. I need to read the given reference on aggregate signatures to =
increase my knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the =
possibilities in this field may offer a solution to the problem, but =
with some other issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).
> =20
> But the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you =
can regenerate with an incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves =
the ability to prevent messages propagating indefinitely, including =
expanding ring searches, and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 =
interval and validity times that might be useful with an expanding ring =
search (or might not).
> =20
> But the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still =
haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s =
for the moment just consider that conceptually.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft =
attempts to do an end to end of some information, not this information. =
I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised =
format is better avoided if possible). Other approaches are hop by hop =
(might as well use packet signatures) and shared key (might as well go =
hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m =
discounting as scaling terribly. In the interests of completeness =
let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating metrics, which puts us back to =
hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal either.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99=
ve seen about aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even =
apart from computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - =
someone with the perfect solution to come along.
> =20
> Which means that either we make an arbitrary choice - which will be =
disagreed with, but needs discussing first - or create something =
flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that regard constrains in others, =
e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating signatures need fixed data sizes =
(which we can do by defining a TLV that =E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with =
hop count, but that has a cost too).
> =20
> I have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does =
that mean that the message grows as it is being forwarded, and that the =
recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the individual costs of each path =
segment? My understanding is, that the recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe =
sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D which should be fitting =
within a fixed size?
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Sorry, no answers, just comments. And I=E2=80=99m not addressing =
Thomas=E2=80=99s later points here.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of ietf@thomasclausen.org =
<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:00
> To: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big =
ticket Items
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
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> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
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> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
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>=20
> *** WARNING ***
> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization.
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
> =20
> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
> =20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
> =20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D
> =20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
> =20
> =20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
> =20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
> =20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
> =20
> =20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.
> =20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
> =20
> =20
>             o          It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in =
the RFC5444 message header useless.
>                         This would not be bad if the functionality =
offered by those fields was not useful
>                         =E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope =
limited flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
>                         such) which may be of interest, and which =
require hop-limit.=20
>                         A hop-count field may also provide a =
=E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of overhead) additional piece
>                         of information to use conjunctively with a =
=E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.
> =20
>                         The only practical solution would be to =
re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a
>                         MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not =
specified in this document, and (ii) which would just
>                         serve to render messages bigger than strictly =
needed.
> =20
>                         Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a =
necessary requirement, if for no
>                         other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.
> =20
>             o          It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.
>                         I think Chris called this out already, but it =
bears repeating: S generates a message=20
>                         (say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated =
over the content of the message.
>                         For any recipient to be able to validate the =
ICV, the message has to be exactly
>                         the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in =
structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
>                         router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ =
may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
>                         in a different order).
> =20
>                         The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
>                         is to add constraints on (i) the set of =
elements to include in a signature and (ii) the
>                         order of these elements.
> =20
>                         One problem with that approach is (i): if an =
extension adds a message TLV, or an=20
>                         Address TLV, to a message, then that will not =
be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
>                         Rather for *each* extension developed, an =
=E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
> =20
>                         I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be =
prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
>                         of designing protocol extensions. The =
alternative, a message being generated by the
>                         source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, =
for example) would allow ICV TLVs=20
>                         (even, allow reuse of those specified for =
OLSRv2) for covering a message and=20
>                         extensions.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value =
which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
>                         Fortunately, that is relatively easy to =
handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV when
>                         generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. =
And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
>                         authentication, if needed (but, see below).
> =20
>             o          It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs
>                         Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
>                         exist, and an interesting use-case can be =
found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying
>                         not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but =
also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero =
out=E2=80=9D
>                         discussed above, or something smarter).
>                         Regeneration of messages, rather than =
forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,
>                         updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
> =20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
> =20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
> =20
> Security Considerations
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
> =20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
> =20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
> =20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
> =20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
> =20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
> =20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
> =20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
>                                      =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from =
RFC7183 here)
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
transmitted  (by the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
>                                     in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV =
Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6=

> =20
>                         o          When an RFC5444 packet is received, =
validate the ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate,
>                                     discard the contained messages.
> =20
>                         o          When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either =
as destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
>                                     <this way> and if the ICV =
doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do not =
forward.
> =20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
> =20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
> =20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
> =20
> =20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
> =20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
> =20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
> =20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
> =20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
> =20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
> =20
> And quoting an email from myself:
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
> =20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
> =20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
> =20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
> =20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
> =20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
> =20
>             o          If the whole prefix is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         then I expect to get a single RREP back, is =
that the case?
> =20
>             o          If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         and the other half is part of the attached =
network set of another  single router,=20
>                         then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
> =20
>             o          More generally, will I get a tree build through =
the network here?
> =20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
> =20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
> =20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>             o          If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect =
some complications) handled?=20
>             o          If not, where is it stated that this =
configuration is not possible with this protocol?
> =20
> =20
> The applicability statement says:
> =20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
> =20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
> =20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
> =20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
> =20
> Best,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
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> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
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> =20
> _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 18:04, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">OK,=
 so we have a message that mutates by:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">- Modifying hop count/limit.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">- Modifying a metric value.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Anything else?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">As mutating (other than =
hop count/limit) messages aren=E2=80=99t covered by 5444 or any =
derivative document (but only recommended against, not banned) that you =
may need to make the message otherwise immutable (no deconstruction and =
rebuilding, other than guaranteed unchanging) that would have to be =
specified by AODVv2. (Easy to say, but needs saying.)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>With you so far.</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Then that information is not in =
a guaranteed fixed location given by a simple offset. So any signature =
algorithm that finds it and ignores it or aggregates on it is specific =
to OLSRv2.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Surely=
 you mean AODVv2</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""> So standard 7182 ICVs don=E2=80=99t do the =
job, you would need an AODVv2 specialised variant. Which is the sort of =
thing that the message specific TLV space is there for, I=E2=80=99d be =
strongly against a =E2=80=9Cbut ignore the value of this specific TLV =
should it occur=E2=80=9D being in the general space. However it can =
easily be defined by reference to 7182 (=E2=80=9Cthis TLV is like that =
TLV, except if an X TLV is present, set its value field to =
zero=E2=80=9D).</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Messy, but could =
work.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Not =
that messy, actually, although clearly not as nice as =E2=80=9Cfixed =
offset=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>That said, I am =
arguing for the base spec being:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>=E2=80=9Cma=
ke the message otherwise immutable (no deconstruction and rebuilding, =
other&nbsp;</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>&nbsp;than guaranteed =
unchanging)=E2=80=9D which is afforded by forwarding</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">			</span>+</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>RFC7182 Timestamps and =
ICVs.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">			</span>+</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>RFC7183 style text bringing it =
all together.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =E2=80=9Caggregated =
signatures around mutable field=E2=80=9D would very be an experimental =
extension.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>What I object to is, if =
the base spec specifically renders such extensions =
impossible</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lotte Steenbrink [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:48<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>; =
Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Message =
integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 =
review - a couple of big ticket Items)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Am =
17.03.2016 um 17:44 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set =
of costs. As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. =
One cost is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated =
signatures problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational =
load.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">For the record, Thomas=E2=80=99 understanding is =
correct; the cost is one aggregated value.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best regards,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Lotte Steenrbink<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D"">Senior Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: =
Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: Message integrity and =
message mutability (was RE: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - =
a couple of big ticket Items)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; =
padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=
=99s comments about the limitations of message regeneration, but I would =
be a bit less absolute.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The=
 issues over end to end authentication and more advanced signatures are =
valid. I need to read the given reference on aggregate signatures to =
increase my knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the =
possibilities in this field may offer a solution to the problem, but =
with some other issues (possibly including a new type of =
TLV).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But=
 the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you can =
regenerate with an incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves the =
ability to prevent messages propagating indefinitely, including =
expanding ring searches, and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 =
interval and validity times that might be useful with an expanding ring =
search (or might not).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But=
 the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still =
haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s =
for the moment just consider that conceptually.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. =
Charlie=E2=80=99s draft attempts to do an end to end of some =
information, not this information. I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s =
useful (and the specialised format is better avoided if possible). Other =
approaches are hop by hop (might as well use packet signatures) and =
shared key (might as well go hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each =
pair of routers I=E2=80=99m discounting as scaling terribly. In the =
interests of completeness let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating =
metrics, which puts us back to hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal =
either.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I =
don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99ve=
 seen about aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even apart =
from computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - someone =
with the perfect solution to come along.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Which means that either we make an =
arbitrary choice - which will be disagreed with, but needs discussing =
first - or create something flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that =
regard constrains in others, e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating =
signatures need fixed data sizes (which we can do by defining a TLV that =
=E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with hop count, but that has a cost =
too).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">I have been told by people much more well versed in =
this than I in cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D=
.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate =
metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does that mean that the message grows as it =
is being forwarded, and that the recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the =
individual costs of each path segment? My understanding is, that the =
recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D=
 which should be fitting within a fixed size?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Sorry, no answers, just comments. And I=E2=80=99m not =
addressing Thomas=E2=80=99s later points here.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D"">Senior Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, =
GU2 7YP</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:00<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket =
Items</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border: =
1pt solid windowtext; padding: 1pt 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">*<strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">**</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</b></span></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">WARNING</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization</span><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Dear =
all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job =
leaving few spare cycles.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and =
some of those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others =
have not, but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to =
rebut parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of =
the document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are items that have been =
brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor =
discussed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Just =
to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting and =
concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops =
possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where loops =
can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some loop =
conditions=E2=80=9D<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in =
public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Intermediate =
Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified =
extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status =
indicated for this document.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about =
loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source =
for loops.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in =
a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Recent=
 exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control messages =
are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new message =
with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; read some of the =
exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I =
am convinced that this is not the right way to go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at =
least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.</b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>This would not be bad if =
the functionality offered by those fields was not useful<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For =
example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>A=
 hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of information to use =
conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The only practical solution =
would be to re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which =
(i) is not specified in this document, and (ii) which would just<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>serve to render messages =
bigger than strictly needed.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Scope limited flooding =
&nbsp;does seem to be a necessary requirement, if for no<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=
 think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S =
generates a message&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(say, a RREQ), and includes =
an ICV calculated over the content of the message.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>For any recipient to be =
able to validate the ICV, the message has to be exactly<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the same =E2=80=94 not just =
in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D=
 rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the =
intermediate<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=
=80=9D the RREQ may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in a different order).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>order of these =
elements.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>One&nbsp;problem with that =
approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or an&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Address TLV, to a message, =
then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec =
TLV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Rather for *each* extension =
developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be =
done.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this =
approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the =
process<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of designing protocol =
extensions. The alternative, a message being generated by the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>source and *forwarded* (as =
we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(even, allow reuse of those =
specified for OLSRv2) for covering a message and&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>extensions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the =
metrics value which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fortunately, that is =
relatively easy to handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV =
when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>generating or verifying the =
ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Aggregate signature =
algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</span></=
a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discussed above, or =
something smarter).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Regeneration of messages, =
rather than forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at =
me as immediate show-stoppers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going =
through the process we got a thorough education in how little we knew =
about security from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so =
developing RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =
=E2=80=9CRFC7183 &nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main =
document, or as an independent document. currently, that is not the =
case.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking =
inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most =
recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =
=E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be =
specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD =
use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that =
that:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... message, a router =
MUST first check if the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; message is invalid for processing by =
this router<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, =
will lead to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore =
invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then =
amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =
=E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that =
directly into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more =
overhead (and slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate =
documents.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what =
ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">For example (with the assumption that messages are =
*forwarded* and *not* regenerated), this could be one option:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take =
inspiration from RFC7183 here)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or forwarded by =
an intermediary)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in =
an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discard the contained =
messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the =
ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do =
not forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is enabled by the =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described previously.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Metrics</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" =
class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]&nbsp; Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, =
K., Dejean, N.,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">RFC 6551</span></a>, DOI 10.17487/<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">RFC6551</span></a>, March 2012,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</span></a>&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the =
abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: =
pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) =
have unique characteristics<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; compared with traditional wired =
and ad hoc networks that require the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; specification of new routing =
metrics and constraints.&nbsp; <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</u></b></span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">not =
applicable in ad hoc networks</u></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 and, I am =
wondering, what has changed since the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly =
make these applicable?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, =
using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a =
possibility?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) usage</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As =
late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing =
list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction =
as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol =
MUST specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for =
reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The =
network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to =
AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be =
said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel =
one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is =
creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If =
protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly is =
protocol X's responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree of =
configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different relay =
set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected flooding =
domain).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">In other words, what the authors propose in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</span></a>&nbsp;is insufficient.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple interfaces configured =
with the same address(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and =
that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and =
RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for =
example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful =
in how it detects bidirectionality of links.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts =
this protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when =
wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then =
the interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple =
interfaces must be worked out.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes &amp; =
Gateways</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer =
that from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If the =
whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If "half =
the prefix" &nbsp;is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and the other half is part =
of the attached network set of another &nbsp;single router,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect two RREPs, is =
that the case?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>More =
generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough =
about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external =
network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there =
being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets =
to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the =
destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is =
configured=E2=80=9D).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B =
being far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, =
then it would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Is this a supported configuration?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If yes, =
how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications) =
handled?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">The applicability statement says:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected =
mobile ad hoc networks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; i.e., non-transit =
networks or those not connected to the internet.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform =
gateway functions when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; attached to external =
networks, as discussed in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Section 9</span></a>.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not a =
transit network)?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have =
gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not =
through working through the document, but those were the ones that came =
to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Best,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:25, Lotte Steenbrink =
<lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Thomas,=20
>=20
>> Am 17.03.2016 um 17:00 schrieb ietf@thomasclausen.org =
<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>:
>>=20
>> Dear all,
>>=20
>> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving =
few spare cycles.
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
>>=20
>> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
>>=20
>> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
>>=20
>> Loops
>> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about =
conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere =
are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two =
situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still =
investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D
>=20
> Just one thing until I can go through your entire review: the conflict =
was between =E2=80=9EThere are no loops possible=E2=80=9C and =E2=80=9EThe=
re were two loops possible and we=E2=80=99ve fixed them.=E2=80=9C. =
I=E2=80=99ve written down the fixes for said loops under the description =
how they can occur.

On March 1, Perkins wrote:
> Other discussion about routing loops has not identified routing loop =
problems in the existing specification.  Use of unconfirmed or invalid =
routes for routing might lead to errors, but that doesn't carry over to =
produce loops in the route table.

On March 2, Chris wrote:
> My concerns have been that your co-authors have continued to discuss =
whether looping could occur since you published to the list saying all =
was well. (An issue to do with multiple unconfirmed routes.) Maybe =
that=E2=80=99s a problem, maybe it isn=E2=80=99t. But it lacks =
transparency, because it hasn=E2=80=99t been discussed here.

Which yesterday, March 16, you replied to by saying:
> The loop possibility you=E2=80=99re referring to was a different one =
than the one discussed by Charlie. We=E2=80=99ve been contacted by =
researchers who are model checking MANET protocols to see if they permit =
any unwanted behaviour. They=E2=80=99ve used AODVv2 as a case study for =
the framework they=E2=80=99ve implemented to do this, and they=E2=80=99ve =
found the following loop:



Of course, not being privy to non-mane-list-discussions,  all I can go =
by is public record. Which is that Perkins clearly affirmed (on the =
list) that there had been looping discussions, but no loop possibilities =
identified, on March 1, and you wrote March 16 that apparently there was =
another loop possibility discussed, brought t you by some researchers =
=E2=80=A6=20=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, =
255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:25, Lotte =
Steenbrink &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" =
class=3D"">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Hi Thomas,&nbsp;</span><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
17.03.2016 um 17:00 schrieb<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Dear all,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this =
done sooner - day-job leaving few spare cycles.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews =
and comments, and some of those have been addressed in the latest I-D =
=E2=80=94 others have not, but should be. I recall that there was some =
mail attempting to rebut parts of the review, and I will dig it out and =
reply to that.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of =
the document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are =
items that have been brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not =
resolved nor discussed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about =
conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere =
are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two =
situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still =
investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></blockquote>=
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just one thing =
until I can go through your entire review: the conflict was between =
=E2=80=9EThere are no loops possible=E2=80=9C and =E2=80=9EThere were =
two loops possible and we=E2=80=99ve fixed them.=E2=80=9C. I=E2=80=99ve =
written down the fixes for said loops under the description how they can =
occur.</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">On March 1, Perkins wrote:<div class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, =
255);" class=3D"">Other discussion about routing loops has not =
identified routing loop problems in the existing specification.&nbsp; =
Use of unconfirmed or invalid routes for routing might lead to errors, =
but that doesn't carry over to produce loops in the route =
table.</span></blockquote><div class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color:=
 rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">On March 2, Chris wrote:</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">My concerns have been that your co-authors have =
continued to discuss whether looping could occur since =
you&nbsp;published to the list saying all was well. (An issue to do with =
multiple unconfirmed routes.) Maybe that=E2=80=99s a&nbsp;problem, maybe =
it isn=E2=80=99t. But it lacks transparency, because it hasn=E2=80=99t =
been discussed here.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>Which&nbsp;yesterday, March 16, you replied to by =
saying:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The loop =
possibility you=E2=80=99re referring to was a different&nbsp;one than =
the one discussed by Charlie. We=E2=80=99ve been contacted by =
researchers who are&nbsp;model checking MANET protocols to see if they =
permit any unwanted behaviour. They=E2=80=99ve used AODVv2 as a case =
study for the framework&nbsp;they=E2=80=99ve implemented to do this, and =
they=E2=80=99ve found the&nbsp;following =
loop:</blockquote></span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: =
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D"">Of course, not being privy to&nbsp;non-mane-list-discussions, =
&nbsp;all I can go by is public record. Which is that&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">Perkins =
clearly affirmed (on the list) that there had been looping discussions, =
but no loop possibilities identified, on March 1, and you wrote March 16 =
that apparently there was another loop possibility discussed, brought t =
you by some researchers&nbsp;=E2=80=A6&nbsp;</span></div></div></body></ht=
ml>=

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Thread-Topic: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
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> On 17 Mar 2016, at 18:17, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>=20
> Yes, I meant AODVv2, thanks for the catch.
> =20
> So is your (Thomas) proposed base specification a hop count only =
metric?

No, the would be silly as base specification, given that hop count =
mostly is useless.

As base specification I would simply say =E2=80=9CInclude a Metric Type =
Message TLV with a value field, and a 7182 Message TLV & Timestamp=E2=80=9D=
 as we do in OLSRv2 (with the appropriate verbiage as to generation and =
processing).=20

With the message generated by the originator of the RREQ/RREP and *not* =
deconstructed/reconstructed/reordered (as is the risk with =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration) allows knowing that it would be *only* that =
metric field being modified (other than hop count/limit) for when =
eventually writing up the extension.
=20
> (Actually doesn=E2=80=99t the current specification only define hop =
count, or has that changed in latest draft?)

No. That is one of the issues I raise in my original. For some reason, =
it cites RFC6551, which is a ROLL document and which has in its abstract =
that:

   Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints.=20

I.e. this document cites a metric document which clearly claims to be =
inapplicable in ad hoc networks. I note that this is another thing =
I=E2=80=99ve raised for years without seeing it attempted resolved.

Best,

Thomas


> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org> =
[mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 17:10
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Lotte Steenbrink; Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
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> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
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>=20
> =20
> On 17 Mar 2016, at 18:04, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> =
wrote:
> =20
> OK, so we have a message that mutates by:
> - Modifying hop count/limit.
> - Modifying a metric value.
> Anything else?
> =20
> As mutating (other than hop count/limit) messages aren=E2=80=99t =
covered by 5444 or any derivative document (but only recommended =
against, not banned) that you may need to make the message otherwise =
immutable (no deconstruction and rebuilding, other than guaranteed =
unchanging) that would have to be specified by AODVv2. (Easy to say, but =
needs saying.)
> =20
> With you so far.
>=20
>=20
> Then that information is not in a guaranteed fixed location given by a =
simple offset. So any signature algorithm that finds it and ignores it =
or aggregates on it is specific to OLSRv2.
> =20
> Surely you mean AODVv2
>=20
>=20
> So standard 7182 ICVs don=E2=80=99t do the job, you would need an =
AODVv2 specialised variant. Which is the sort of thing that the message =
specific TLV space is there for, I=E2=80=99d be strongly against a =
=E2=80=9Cbut ignore the value of this specific TLV should it occur=E2=80=9D=
 being in the general space. However it can easily be defined by =
reference to 7182 (=E2=80=9Cthis TLV is like that TLV, except if an X =
TLV is present, set its value field to zero=E2=80=9D).
> =20
> Messy, but could work.
> =20
> Not that messy, actually, although clearly not as nice as =E2=80=9Cfixed=
 offset=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> That said, I am arguing for the base spec being:
> =20
>             =E2=80=9Cmake the message otherwise immutable (no =
deconstruction and rebuilding, other=20
>              than guaranteed unchanging)=E2=80=9D which is afforded by =
forwarding
> =20
>                                     +
> =20
>             RFC7182 Timestamps and ICVs.
> =20
>                                     +
> =20
>             RFC7183 style text bringing it all together.
> =20
> The =E2=80=9Caggregated signatures around mutable field=E2=80=9D would =
very be an experimental extension.
> =20
> What I object to is, if the base spec specifically renders such =
extensions impossible
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de =
<mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:48
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>; Mobile Ad =
Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: [manet] Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
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s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> Hi all,
> =20
> Am 17.03.2016 um 17:44 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
> =20
> Good point about whether you just pass on one cost or a set of costs. =
As I said, not looked at details - I will, when time permits. One cost =
is much easier, and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated signatures =
problem to =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational load.
> =20
> For the record, Thomas=E2=80=99 understanding is correct; the cost is =
one aggregated value.=20
> =20
> Best regards,=20
> Lotte Steenrbink
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org> =
[mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org <mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>]=20
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:38
> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: Re: Message integrity and message mutability (was RE: [manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items)
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.
>=20
> =20
> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>> =
wrote:
> =20
> I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments about the limitations of =
message regeneration, but I would be a bit less absolute.
> =20
> The issues over end to end authentication and more advanced signatures =
are valid. I need to read the given reference on aggregate signatures to =
increase my knowledge (thanks for it), but my understanding of the =
possibilities in this field may offer a solution to the problem, but =
with some other issues (possibly including a new type of TLV).
> =20
> But the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99t fully agree with, you =
can regenerate with an incremented/decremented count/limit, which leaves =
the ability to prevent messages propagating indefinitely, including =
expanding ring searches, and retains the ability to use RFC 5497 =
interval and validity times that might be useful with an expanding ring =
search (or might not).
> =20
> But the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics. I still =
haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many details here, but let=E2=80=99s =
for the moment just consider that conceptually.
> =20
> It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. Charlie=E2=80=99s draft =
attempts to do an end to end of some information, not this information. =
I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s useful (and the specialised =
format is better avoided if possible). Other approaches are hop by hop =
(might as well use packet signatures) and shared key (might as well go =
hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each pair of routers I=E2=80=99m =
discounting as scaling terribly. In the interests of completeness =
let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating metrics, which puts us back to =
hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal either.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99=
ve seen about aggregating, but that has some issues of its own, even =
apart from computational load.) I=E2=80=99d love to be proved wrong - =
someone with the perfect solution to come along.
> =20
> Which means that either we make an arbitrary choice - which will be =
disagreed with, but needs discussing first - or create something =
flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that regard constrains in others, =
e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating signatures need fixed data sizes =
(which we can do by defining a TLV that =E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with =
hop count, but that has a cost too).
> =20
> I have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 does =
that mean that the message grows as it is being forwarded, and that the =
recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the individual costs of each path =
segment? My understanding is, that the recipient will get =E2=80=9Cthe =
sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D which should be fitting =
within a fixed size?
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Sorry, no answers, just comments. And I=E2=80=99m not addressing =
Thomas=E2=80=99s later points here.
> =20
> --
>=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> Senior Principal Engineer
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>=20
> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>=20
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>=20
> =20
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of ietf@thomasclausen.org =
<mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org>
> Sent: 17 March 2016 16:00
> To: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list
> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big =
ticket Items
> =20
> =20
> *** WARNING ***
> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an =
external partner or the internet.
> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any =
attachments or reply.
> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in =
emails you receive, click here =
<http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Document=
s/Red%20Flags.pdf>.
> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process =
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>=20
> *** WARNING ***
> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization.
> =20
> Dear all,
> =20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
> =20
> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
> =20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
> =20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D
> =20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
> =20
> =20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
> =20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
> =20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
> =20
> =20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.
> =20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
> =20
> =20
>             o          It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in =
the RFC5444 message header useless.
>                         This would not be bad if the functionality =
offered by those fields was not useful
>                         =E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope =
limited flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
>                         such) which may be of interest, and which =
require hop-limit.=20
>                         A hop-count field may also provide a =
=E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of overhead) additional piece
>                         of information to use conjunctively with a =
=E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.
> =20
>                         The only practical solution would be to =
re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a
>                         MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not =
specified in this document, and (ii) which would just
>                         serve to render messages bigger than strictly =
needed.
> =20
>                         Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a =
necessary requirement, if for no
>                         other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.
> =20
>             o          It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.
>                         I think Chris called this out already, but it =
bears repeating: S generates a message=20
>                         (say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated =
over the content of the message.
>                         For any recipient to be able to validate the =
ICV, the message has to be exactly
>                         the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in =
structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
>                         router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ =
may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
>                         in a different order).
> =20
>                         The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
>                         is to add constraints on (i) the set of =
elements to include in a signature and (ii) the
>                         order of these elements.
> =20
>                         One problem with that approach is (i): if an =
extension adds a message TLV, or an=20
>                         Address TLV, to a message, then that will not =
be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
>                         Rather for *each* extension developed, an =
=E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
> =20
>                         I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be =
prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
>                         of designing protocol extensions. The =
alternative, a message being generated by the
>                         source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, =
for example) would allow ICV TLVs=20
>                         (even, allow reuse of those specified for =
OLSRv2) for covering a message and=20
>                         extensions.
> =20
>                         =E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value =
which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
>                         Fortunately, that is relatively easy to =
handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV when
>                         generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. =
And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
>                         authentication, if needed (but, see below).
> =20
>             o          It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs
>                         Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
>                         exist, and an interesting use-case can be =
found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying
>                         not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but =
also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero =
out=E2=80=9D
>                         discussed above, or something smarter).
>                         Regeneration of messages, rather than =
forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,
>                         updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
> =20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
> =20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
> =20
> Security Considerations
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
> =20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
> =20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
> =20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
> =20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
> =20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
> =20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
> =20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
>                                      =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from =
RFC7183 here)
> =20
>                         o          When a RREQ, RREP message is =
transmitted  (by the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
>                                     in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV =
Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6=

> =20
>                         o          When an RFC5444 packet is received, =
validate the ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate,
>                                     discard the contained messages.
> =20
>                         o          When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either =
as destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
>                                     <this way> and if the ICV =
doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do not =
forward.
> =20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
> =20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
> =20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
> =20
> =20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
> =20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
> =20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
> =20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
> =20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
> =20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
> =20
> And quoting an email from myself:
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
> =20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
> =20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
> =20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
> =20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
> =20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
> =20
>             o          If the whole prefix is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         then I expect to get a single RREP back, is =
that the case?
> =20
>             o          If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=20
>                         and the other half is part of the attached =
network set of another  single router,=20
>                         then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
> =20
>             o          More generally, will I get a tree build through =
the network here?
> =20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
> =20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
> =20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>             o          If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect =
some complications) handled?=20
>             o          If not, where is it stated that this =
configuration is not possible with this protocol?
> =20
> =20
> The applicability statement says:
> =20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
> =20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
> =20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
> =20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
> =20
> Best,
> =20
> Thomas
> =20
> =20
> =20
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>

--Apple-Mail=_D76C79F4-4149-4669-B82A-A63925CF1BDB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 18:17, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Yes, I meant AODVv2, thanks for the catch.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">So is your (Thomas) =
proposed base specification a hop count only metric?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>No, the would be silly as base specification, given =
that hop count mostly is useless.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>As =
base specification I would simply say =E2=80=9CInclude a Metric Type =
Message TLV with a value field, and a 7182 Message TLV &amp; =
Timestamp=E2=80=9D as we do in OLSRv2 (with the appropriate verbiage as =
to generation and processing).&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>With the message generated by the originator of =
the RREQ/RREP and *not* deconstructed/reconstructed/reordered (as is the =
risk with =E2=80=9Cregeneration) allows knowing that it would be *only* =
that metric field being modified (other than hop count/limit) for when =
eventually writing up the extension.</div><div><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">(Actually doesn=E2=80=99t the current =
specification only define hop count, or has that changed in latest =
draft?)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>No. =
That is one of the issues I raise in my original. For some reason, it =
cites RFC6551, which is a ROLL document and which has in its abstract =
that:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">   Low-Power and Lossy =
Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints. </pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I.e. this document cites =
a metric document which clearly claims to be inapplicable in ad hoc =
networks. I note that this is another thing I=E2=80=99ve raised for =
years without seeing it attempted resolved.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best,</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thomas</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
 style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: =
8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, =
Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br =
class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research =
Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 17:10<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lotte Steenbrink; Mobile Ad =
Hoc Networks mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Message =
integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 =
review - a couple of big ticket Items)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt =
solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING ***<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></em></span></i><stron=
g class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>that you =
can look out for in emails you receive, click<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">here</a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">this =
process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at =
18:04, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">OK,=
 so we have a message that mutates by:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">- Modifying hop =
count/limit.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">- =
Modifying a metric value.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Anything else?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">As mutating (other than =
hop count/limit) messages aren=E2=80=99t covered by 5444 or any =
derivative document (but only recommended against, not banned) that you =
may need to make the message otherwise immutable (no deconstruction and =
rebuilding, other than guaranteed unchanging) that would have to be =
specified by AODVv2. (Easy to say, but needs saying.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">With you so far.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Then that information is not in a guaranteed fixed location =
given by a simple offset. So any signature algorithm that finds it and =
ignores it or aggregates on it is specific to OLSRv2.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Surely you mean AODVv2<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">So standard 7182 ICVs don=E2=80=99t do the =
job, you would need an AODVv2 specialised variant. Which is the sort of =
thing that the message specific TLV space is there for, I=E2=80=99d be =
strongly against a =E2=80=9Cbut ignore the value of this specific TLV =
should it occur=E2=80=9D being in the general space. However it can =
easily be defined by reference to 7182 (=E2=80=9Cthis TLV is like that =
TLV, except if an X TLV is present, set its value field to =
zero=E2=80=9D).</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Messy, but could =
work.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Not that messy, actually, although clearly not as nice as =
=E2=80=9Cfixed offset=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">That said, I am arguing for the base spec being:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>=E2=80=9Cmake the =
message otherwise immutable (no deconstruction and rebuilding, =
other&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>&nbsp;than =
guaranteed unchanging)=E2=80=9D which is afforded by forwarding<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>+<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>RFC7182 Timestamps =
and ICVs.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>+<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>RFC7183 style text =
bringing it all together.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">The =E2=80=9Caggregated signatures around mutable =
field=E2=80=9D would very be an experimental extension.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">What I object to is, if the base spec =
specifically renders such extensions impossible<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: =
Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: =
1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Lotte Steenbrink [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:48<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a>; Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [manet] Message =
integrity and message mutability (was RE: draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 =
review - a couple of big ticket Items)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; =
padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">Hi all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Am 17.03.2016 um 17:44 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt;:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Good point about =
whether you just pass on one cost or a set of costs. As I said, not =
looked at details - I will, when time permits. One cost is much easier, =
and yes, it reduces the fixed size aggregated signatures problem to =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D one of computational load.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">For the record, Thomas=E2=80=99 =
understanding is correct; the cost is one aggregated value.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best regards,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Lotte Steenrbink<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior Principal =
Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br =
class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England &amp; Wales No: =
01337451</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" =
class=3D"">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, =
GU2 7YP</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:38<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dearlove, Christopher =
(UK)<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: Message integrity and =
message mutability (was RE: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - =
a couple of big ticket Items)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"border: 1pt solid =
black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
text-align: center; background-color: white;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:30, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I appreciate Thomas=E2=80=99s comments =
about the limitations of message regeneration, but I would be a bit less =
absolute.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">The issues over end to end authentication =
and more advanced signatures are valid. I need to read the given =
reference on aggregate signatures to increase my knowledge (thanks for =
it), but my understanding of the possibilities in this field may offer a =
solution to the problem, but with some other issues (possibly including =
a new type of TLV).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the hop count/limit point I don=E2=80=99=
t fully agree with, you can regenerate with an incremented/decremented =
count/limit, which leaves the ability to prevent messages propagating =
indefinitely, including expanding ring searches, and retains the ability =
to use RFC 5497 interval and validity times that might be useful with an =
expanding ring search (or might not).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">But the key issue is that AODVv2 wants to =
accumulate metrics. I still haven=E2=80=99t got to the bottom of many =
details here, but let=E2=80=99s for the moment just consider that =
conceptually.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s hard to handle end to end. =
Charlie=E2=80=99s draft attempts to do an end to end of some =
information, not this information. I=E2=80=99m not sure if that=E2=80=99s =
useful (and the specialised format is better avoided if possible). Other =
approaches are hop by hop (might as well use packet signatures) and =
shared key (might as well go hop by hop). Pairwise signatures for each =
pair of routers I=E2=80=99m discounting as scaling terribly. In the =
interests of completeness let=E2=80=99s mention not accumulating =
metrics, which puts us back to hop count and that=E2=80=99s not ideal =
either.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think there is an ideal =
solution. (I like ideas I=E2=80=99ve seen about aggregating, but that =
has some issues of its own, even apart from computational load.) I=E2=80=99=
d love to be proved wrong - someone with the perfect solution to come =
along.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Which means that either we make an =
arbitrary choice - which will be disagreed with, but needs discussing =
first - or create something flexible. Unfortunately flexible in that =
regard constrains in others, e.g. some (many? most?) aggregating =
signatures need fixed data sizes (which we can do by defining a TLV that =
=E2=80=9Cfills up=E2=80=9D with hop count, but that has a cost =
too).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I =
have been told by people much more well versed in this than I in =
cryptology, that the correct answer is =E2=80=9Csome=E2=80=9D.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">That said, "AODVv2 wants to accumulate metrics=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94=
 does that mean that the message grows as it is being forwarded, and =
that the recipient of a RREQ/RREP will know the individual costs of each =
path segment? My understanding is, that the recipient will get =E2=80=9Cth=
e sum the costs of each path segment=E2=80=9D which should be fitting =
within a fixed size?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Thomas<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">Sorry, no answers, just comments. And =
I=E2=80=99m not addressing Thomas=E2=80=99s later points =
here.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">--</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, =
126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br class=3D"">Senior =
Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence =
Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________________________=
___________<br class=3D""></span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" =
class=3D"">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(125, 125, 125);" class=3D"">: &nbsp;+44 =
(0)1245 242194 &nbsp;| &nbsp;<b class=3D"">E:<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</span></a><br =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 0, 126);" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span=
 style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford =
Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(58, =
139, 146);" class=3D"">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">BAE =
Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br class=3D"">Registered in England =
&amp; Wales No: 01337451</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif;"><span style=3D"font-size: 8pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(58, 139, 146);" class=3D"">Registered Office: =
Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;" class=3D"">manet [<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>]<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b><a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>17 =
March 2016 16:00<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mobile Ad Hoc Networks =
mailing list<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[manet] =
draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket =
Items</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"border: 1pt solid black; padding: 2pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; text-align: center; background-color: white;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 15pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">*** WARNING =
***</span></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-align: =
center; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;"><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">This message originates from outside our =
organisation, either from an external partner or the =
internet.</span></em><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><em class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Consider carefully whether you should click on =
any links, open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br class=3D""><em =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">For =
information regarding</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></i><strong =
class=3D""><i class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif; color: red;" class=3D"">Red =
Flags</span></i></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D"">that you can look out for in emails you =
receive, click</span></em><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><i =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 57, 114);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></i></span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">here</span></a>.</span></em><i class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(51, 57, 114);" class=3D""><br class=3D""><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you feel the =
email is suspicious, please follow</span></em><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><em class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/D=
ocuments/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">this process</span></a>.</span></em></span></i><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border: =
1pt solid windowtext; padding: 1pt 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; text-align: center;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">*<strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">**</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</b></span></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">WARNING</span></strong><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b=
 class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></b></span><strong class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">***</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our =
organization</span><span style=3D"font-size: 8.5pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Dear all,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job =
leaving few spare cycles.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews =
and comments, and some of those have been addressed in the latest I-D =
=E2=80=94 others have not, but should be. I recall that there was some =
mail attempting to rebut parts of the review, and I will dig it out and =
reply to that.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of =
the document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I also bring these up as they are items =
that have been brought up repeatedly over the past years, but not =
resolved nor discussed.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Loops</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about =
conflicting and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere =
are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two =
situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still =
investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a =
discussion had in public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Intermediate =
Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified =
extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status =
indicated for this document.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated =
to the point about loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a =
potential source for loops.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) =
is not documented in a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol =
control messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then =
a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated =
and transmitted.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I have thought some more on this (&amp; read some of the =
exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I =
am convinced that this is not the right way to go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at =
least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.</b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>This would not be bad if =
the functionality offered by those fields was not useful<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For =
example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>A=
 hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of information to use =
conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The only practical solution =
would be to re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which =
(i) is not specified in this document, and (ii) which would just<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>serve to render messages =
bigger than strictly needed.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Scope limited flooding =
&nbsp;does seem to be a necessary requirement, if for no<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It makes end-to-end authentication =
unnecessarily hard.</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=
 think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S =
generates a message&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(say, a RREQ), and includes =
an ICV calculated over the content of the message.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>For any recipient to be =
able to validate the ICV, the message has to be exactly<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>the same =E2=80=94 not just =
in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was generated.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D=
 rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the =
intermediate<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=
=80=9D the RREQ may chose a different structure (e.g., include TLVs<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in a different order).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>order of these =
elements.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>One&nbsp;problem with that =
approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or an&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Address TLV, to a message, =
then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec =
TLV.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Rather for *each* extension =
developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be =
done.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this =
approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the =
process<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of designing protocol =
extensions. The alternative, a message being generated by the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>source and *forwarded* (as =
we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>(even, allow reuse of those =
specified for OLSRv2) for covering a message and&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>extensions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the =
metrics value which will change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fortunately, that is =
relatively easy to handle: simply zero out the value of that TLV =
when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>generating or verifying the =
ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more clever/advanced =
signature schemes/ICVs</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Aggregate signature =
algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</span></=
a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing verifying<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discussed above, or =
something smarter).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Regeneration of messages, =
rather than forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/span></a>)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at =
me as immediate show-stoppers.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I do honestly not see what possible =
benefit there is from =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see =
very clear inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. =
Insisting on =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =
=E2=80=9Cnon-general workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going =
through the process we got a thorough education in how little we knew =
about security from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so =
developing RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =
=E2=80=9CRFC7183 &nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main =
document, or as an independent document. currently, that is not the =
case.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking =
inspiration from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most =
recent that went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =
=E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be =
specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD =
use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that =
that:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... message, a router =
MUST first check if the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; message is invalid for processing by =
this router<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, =
will lead to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore =
invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then =
amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =
=E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I =
would include that directly into the protocol specifications. It turned =
out to be more overhead (and slow down publication anyways) to do it as =
separate documents.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid =
in terms of what ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that =
brings.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">For example (with the assumption that messages are =
*forwarded* and *not* regenerated), this could be one option:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take =
inspiration from RFC7183 here)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When a =
RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or forwarded by =
an intermediary)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>in =
an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is =
calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>discard the contained =
messages.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the =
ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, do not process, do =
not forward.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is enabled by the =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described previously.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Metrics</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any =
answer so I am escalating this again. Why is this document having a =
normative reference to RFC6551?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [<a name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" =
class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]&nbsp; Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, =
K., Dejean, N.,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">RFC 6551</span></a>, DOI 10.17487/<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">RFC6551</span></a>, March 2012,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</span></a>&gt;.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the =
ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; word-wrap: break-word; white-space: =
pre-wrap;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) =
have unique characteristics<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; compared with traditional wired =
and ad hoc networks that require the<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; specification of new routing =
metrics and constraints.&nbsp; <o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that =
these metrics are<span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</u></b></span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">not =
applicable in ad hoc networks</u></b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>=E2=80=94 and, I am =
wondering, what has changed since the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly =
make these applicable?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at =
(and, perhaps, using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not =
a possibility?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is =
wrong.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) usage</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again =
on the mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using =
flooding reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, =
then this protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to =
the list:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The network does not and fundamentally =
cannot offer multicast suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, =
but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in =
5444 packets, and those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for =
suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. =
That needs AODVv2 specific handling.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><blockquote=
 style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it =
certainly is protocol X's responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding =
operation (or, at least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation =
) for correct functioning of protocol X.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that =
RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for =
example, pick two different relay set selection algorithms, as that may =
produce a disconnected flooding domain).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">In other words, what the authors propose =
in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</span></a>&nbsp;is insufficient.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple =
interfaces configured with the same address(es) - &amp; =
RFC6621</u></b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I think that it has been established that =
the ability to use the same address on multiple interfaces is a =
requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear to me that a single way of doing so =
has been proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D =
are called out (for example, will it work &nbsp;if router A and router B =
both have two interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the same IP =
address?)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and =
RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for =
example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful =
in how it detects bidirectionality of links.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I have not worked out all the details of =
how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. =
Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use =
RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints when =
faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes =
&amp; Gateways</u></b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer =
that from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If the =
whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If "half =
the prefix" &nbsp;is part of the attached network set of a single =
router,&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>and the other half is part =
of the attached network set of another &nbsp;single router,&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>then I expect two RREPs, is =
that the case?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>More =
generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also =
not explicit enough about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 =
i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D=
, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how =
the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it =
should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET =
prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close =
to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metric used) =
within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from A to =
B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If yes, =
how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications) =
handled?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>o<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;</span><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">The applicability statement says:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected =
mobile ad hoc networks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; i.e., non-transit =
networks or those not connected to the internet.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; page-break-before: always;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform =
gateway functions when<o:p class=3D""></o:p></pre><pre style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; =
page-break-before: always;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; attached to external =
networks, as discussed in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">Section 9</span></a>.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></pre></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">I believe that the scenario I describe is =
indeed a stub network (and not a transit network)?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the big-picture =
issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. =
I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but those were the =
ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Best,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">Thomas<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
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class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">manet mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" style=3D"color: =
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From nobody Fri Mar 18 06:05:38 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: DLEP last call
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Hi All,=0A=
=0A=
As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance =
=0A=
to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get =0A=
draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.=0A=
=0A=
The same applies to the credit windowing draft.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


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To: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
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From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Subject: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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Stan, (Rick),
    One additional question WRT credit windows.  The text says:

   The number of credits needed for a given transmission is the length
   of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.  When sending
   data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the
   appropriate window by the size of the data being sent, prior to
   encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is received, the
   receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation at the MAC
   layer.


Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps padding as
they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small packet/frame? 
Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF channel?  If
this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how does it impact
processing?

Thanks,
Lou

On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance 
> to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get 
> draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>
> The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
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References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:20:01 -0400
Message-ID: <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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Lou,


On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> Stan, (Rick),
>     One additional question WRT credit windows.  The text says:
>
>    The number of credits needed for a given transmission is the length
>    of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.  When sending
>    data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the
>    appropriate window by the size of the data being sent, prior to
>    encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is received, the
>    receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation at the MAC
>    layer.
>
>
> Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps padding as
> they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small packet/frame?
> Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF channel?  If
> this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how does it impact
> processing?
>

The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The intent was to
count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or sent up after
L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's indicated in the Peer
Init/Peer Init response (you either support the extension or you don't),
then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce.

Regards,
Stan



>
> Thanks,
> Lou
>
> On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance
> > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
> > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
> >
> > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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--089e013a1a2032c992052e57a234
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Lou,=C2=A0<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Stan, (Rick),=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One additional question WRT credit windows.=C2=A0 The text sa=
ys:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The number of credits needed for a given transmission is the l=
ength<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.=C2=A0 When=
 sending<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0appropriate window by the size of the data being sent, prior t=
o<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0encapsulation at the MAC layer.=C2=A0 When traffic is received=
, the<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation at =
the MAC<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0layer.<br>
<br>
<br>
Doesn&#39;t it make sense to include the MAC header &amp; perhaps padding a=
s<br>
they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small packet/frame?<br>
Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF channel?=C2=A0 I=
f<br>
this is a per radio &#39;thing&#39; how is this indicated and how does it i=
mpact<br>
processing?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The MAC header is fixed. Sa=
me with the Ethernet header. The intent was to count the bytes that are que=
ued to go into L2/L1 encap (or sent up after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As fo=
r &quot;per radio&quot;, it&#39;s indicated in the Peer Init/Peer Init resp=
onse (you either support the extension or you don&#39;t), then again at Des=
tination Up/Destination Announce.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<b=
r>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Lou<br>
<br>
On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chan=
ce<br>
&gt; to read and submit any review comments, as I&#39;d ideally like to get=
<br>
&gt; draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--089e013a1a2032c992052e57a234--


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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:29:02 -0400
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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Stan,

Let me try a different tact:

    Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted over the air?

    If sometimes, under what conditions?

Thanks,
Lou

On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> Lou, 
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
>
>     Stan, (Rick),
>         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The text says:
>
>        The number of credits needed for a given transmission is the length
>        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.  When sending
>        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the
>        appropriate window by the size of the data being sent, prior to
>        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is received, the
>        receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation at
>     the MAC
>        layer.
>
>
>     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps padding as
>     they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small packet/frame?
>     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF
>     channel?  If
>     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how does it
>     impact
>     processing?
>
>
> The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The intent was
> to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or sent up
> after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's indicated in
> the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the extension or
> you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce. 
>
> Regards,
> Stan
>
>  
>
>
>     Thanks,
>     Lou
>
>     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>     > Hi All,
>     >
>     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had
>     a chance
>     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
>     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>     >
>     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>     >
>     > Cheers,
>     >
>     > Rick
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > manet mailing list
>     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     manet mailing list
>     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>



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References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net>
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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--001a113fbcc2fb309c052e57d098
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> Stan,
>
> Let me try a different tact:
>
>     Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted over the air?
>

OTA - depends on the radio architecture.


>
>     If sometimes, under what conditions?
>

802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.

Regards,
Stan




>
> Thanks,
> Lou
>
> On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> > Lou,
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> > <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
> >
> >     Stan, (Rick),
> >         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The text says:
> >
> >        The number of credits needed for a given transmission is the
> length
> >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.  When sending
> >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the
> >        appropriate window by the size of the data being sent, prior to
> >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is received, the
> >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation at
> >     the MAC
> >        layer.
> >
> >
> >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps padding as
> >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small
> packet/frame?
> >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF
> >     channel?  If
> >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how does it
> >     impact
> >     processing?
> >
> >
> > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The intent was
> > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or sent up
> > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's indicated in
> > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the extension or
> > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Stan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >     Lou
> >
> >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> >     > Hi All,
> >     >
> >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had
> >     a chance
> >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
> >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
> >     >
> >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >     >
> >     > Cheers,
> >     >
> >     > Rick
> >     >
> >     > _______________________________________________
> >     > manet mailing list
> >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >
> >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     manet mailing list
> >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
> >
>
>
>

--001a113fbcc2fb309c052e57d098
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Stan,<br>
<br>
Let me try a different tact:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted over the=
 air?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>OTA - depends on the radio archit=
ecture.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If sometimes, under what conditions?<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.=C2=A0</div><div><br=
></div><div>Regards,<br>Stan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Lou<br>
<br>
On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt; Lou,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lber=
ger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stan, (Rick),<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One additional question WRT credit wi=
ndows.=C2=A0 The text says:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The number of credits needed for a given tr=
ansmission is the length<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the data portion of the packet at the MA=
C layer.=C2=A0 When sending<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data to a credit enabled peer, the sender M=
UST decrement the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate window by the size of the data =
being sent, prior to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapsulation at the MAC layer.=C2=A0 When =
traffic is received, the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver MUST decrement its own window afte=
r decapsulation at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 layer.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doesn&#39;t it make sense to include the MAC header=
 &amp; perhaps padding as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they may account for a non-negligible portion of a =
small packet/frame?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over=
 the RF<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0channel?=C2=A0 If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this is a per radio &#39;thing&#39; how is this ind=
icated and how does it<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The intent was=
<br>
&gt; to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or sent up<=
br>
&gt; after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for &quot;per radio&quot;, it&#39;s =
indicated in<br>
&gt; the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the extension or<=
br>
&gt; you don&#39;t), then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Hi All,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP,=
 has everyone had<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a chance<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; to read and submit any review comments, as I&#=
39;d ideally like to get<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the=
 chain.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The same applies to the credit windowing draft=
.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; ______________________________________________=
_<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.o=
rg</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin=
fo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0manet mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ma=
net" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
info/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
>
>     Stan,
>
>     Let me try a different tact:
>
>         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted over the air?
>
>
> OTA - depends on the radio architecture. 
>  
>
>
>         If sometimes, under what conditions?
>
>
> 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA. 
>

doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and padding, need
to be part of the credits?

eg I have 1000bytes of credits. 

In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte header and 4 bytes
trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the credit allows:
-  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1, including IP
header), or
- 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690 total length
(64-18 * 15, including IP header),

or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get transmitted,
the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.

How is a router to know what to include?  I think the router needs to be
told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the router how many
bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes) and if frame
padding is included in the credits?

Lou

> Regards,
> Stan
>
>
>  
>
>
>     Thanks,
>     Lou
>
>     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     > Lou,
>     >
>     >
>     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     Stan, (Rick),
>     >         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The text says:
>     >
>     >        The number of credits needed for a given transmission is
>     the length
>     >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.  When
>     sending
>     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the
>     >        appropriate window by the size of the data being sent,
>     prior to
>     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is
>     received, the
>     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation at
>     >     the MAC
>     >        layer.
>     >
>     >
>     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps
>     padding as
>     >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small
>     packet/frame?
>     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF
>     >     channel?  If
>     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how
>     does it
>     >     impact
>     >     processing?
>     >
>     >
>     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The
>     intent was
>     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or
>     sent up
>     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's indicated in
>     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the
>     extension or
>     > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce.
>     >
>     > Regards,
>     > Stan
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Thanks,
>     >     Lou
>     >
>     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>     >     > Hi All,
>     >     >
>     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has
>     everyone had
>     >     a chance
>     >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally
>     like to get
>     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>     >     >
>     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>     >     >
>     >     > Cheers,
>     >     >
>     >     > Rick
>     >     >
>     >     > _______________________________________________
>     >     > manet mailing list
>     >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     _______________________________________________
>     >     manet mailing list
>     >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >
>     >
>
>
>



From nobody Fri Mar 18 13:03:15 2016
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References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:03:11 -0400
Message-ID: <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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--047d7bdc184a8bfcf8052e583c55
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> > <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
> >
> >     Stan,
> >
> >     Let me try a different tact:
> >
> >         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted over the
> air?
> >
> >
> > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
> >
> >
> >
> >         If sometimes, under what conditions?
> >
> >
> > 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.
> >
>
> doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and padding, need
> to be part of the credits?
>
> eg I have 1000bytes of credits.
>
> In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte header and 4 bytes
> trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the credit allows:
> -  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1, including IP
> header), or
> - 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690 total length
> (64-18 * 15, including IP header),
>
> or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get transmitted,
> the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.
>
> How is a router to know what to include?  I think the router needs to be
> told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the router how many
> bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes) and if frame
> padding is included in the credits?
>

I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the credit
counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer. Padding, if it occurs
at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the draft, IMO.

Regards,
Stan



>
> Lou
>
> > Regards,
> > Stan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >     Lou
> >
> >     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >     > Lou,
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Stan, (Rick),
> >     >         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The text says:
> >     >
> >     >        The number of credits needed for a given transmission is
> >     the length
> >     >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC layer.  When
> >     sending
> >     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST decrement the
> >     >        appropriate window by the size of the data being sent,
> >     prior to
> >     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is
> >     received, the
> >     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after decapsulation
> at
> >     >     the MAC
> >     >        layer.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps
> >     padding as
> >     >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small
> >     packet/frame?
> >     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF
> >     >     channel?  If
> >     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how
> >     does it
> >     >     impact
> >     >     processing?
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The
> >     intent was
> >     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or
> >     sent up
> >     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's indicated
> in
> >     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the
> >     extension or
> >     > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce.
> >     >
> >     > Regards,
> >     > Stan
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     Thanks,
> >     >     Lou
> >     >
> >     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> >     >     > Hi All,
> >     >     >
> >     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has
> >     everyone had
> >     >     a chance
> >     >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally
> >     like to get
> >     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Cheers,
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Rick
> >     >     >
> >     >     > _______________________________________________
> >     >     > manet mailing list
> >     >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     _______________________________________________
> >     >     manet mailing list
> >     >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

--047d7bdc184a8bfcf8052e583c55
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lber=
ger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stan,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Let me try a different tact:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the MAC header sometimes/never/alw=
ays transmitted over the air?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; OTA - depends on the radio architecture.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If sometimes, under what conditions?<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
doesn&#39;t whatever goes over the air, including header and padding, need<=
br>
to be part of the credits?<br>
<br>
eg I have 1000bytes of credits.<br>
<br>
In the case of a radio that=C2=A0 that includes 14byte header and 4 bytes<b=
r>
trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.=C2=A0 This means the credit allows:=
<br>
-=C2=A0 one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1, including IP<=
br>
header), or<br>
- 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690 total length<br>
(64-18 * 15, including IP header),<br>
<br>
or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don&#39;t get transmitted,<=
br>
the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.<br>
<br>
How is a router to know what to include?=C2=A0 I think the router needs to =
be<br>
told what to do.=C2=A0 Perhaps have the radio just tell the router how many=
<br>
bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,=C2=A0 38 bytes) and if frame<br>
padding is included in the credits?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I c=
an go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the credit counts. =
That gets everything through the MAC layer. Padding, if it occurs at Layer =
1, is outside the scope of the draft, IMO.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>R=
egards,</div><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">
<br>
Lou<br>
<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Lou,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net"=
>lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberge=
r@labn.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stan, (Rick),<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One additiona=
l question WRT credit windows.=C2=A0 The text says:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The number of credi=
ts needed for a given transmission is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the length<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the data portion=
 of the packet at the MAC layer.=C2=A0 When<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sending<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data to a credit en=
abled peer, the sender MUST decrement the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate window =
by the size of the data being sent,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prior to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapsulation at th=
e MAC layer.=C2=A0 When traffic is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0received, the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver MUST decre=
ment its own window after decapsulation at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 layer.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doesn&#39;t it make sense t=
o include the MAC header &amp; perhaps<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they may account for a non-=
negligible portion of a small<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet/frame?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Or are ethernet headers and=
 padding never sent over the RF<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0channel?=C2=A0 If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this is a per radio &#39;th=
ing&#39; how is this indicated and how<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does it<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Etherne=
t header. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intent was<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; to count the bytes that are queued to go into =
L2/L1 encap (or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sent up<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for &quot;pe=
r radio&quot;, it&#39;s indicated in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either s=
upport the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extension or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; you don&#39;t), then again at Destination Up/D=
estination Announce.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick =
Taylor wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Hi All,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; As we are looking to e=
xit last-call with DLEP, has<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0everyone had<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a chance<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; to read and submit any=
 review comments, as I&#39;d ideally<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like to get<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; draft-21 out ASAP and =
move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The same applies to th=
e credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; ______________________=
_________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; manet mailing list<br>
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t@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org"=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://www=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0___________________________=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0manet mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:manet@iet=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://w=
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&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--047d7bdc184a8bfcf8052e583c55--


From nobody Fri Mar 18 13:20:45 2016
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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net> <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
Message-ID: <56EC630C.1020604@labn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:20:28 -0400
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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Stan,


On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     Stan,
>     >
>     >     Let me try a different tact:
>     >
>     >         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted
>     over the air?
>     >
>     >
>     > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >         If sometimes, under what conditions?
>     >
>     >
>     > 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.
>     >
>
>     doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and padding, need
>     to be part of the credits?
>
>     eg I have 1000bytes of credits.
>
>     In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte header and 4 bytes
>     trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the credit allows:
>     -  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1, including IP
>     header), or
>     - 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690 total length
>     (64-18 * 15, including IP header),
>
>     or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get transmitted,
>     the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.
>
>     How is a router to know what to include?  I think the router needs
>     to be
>     told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the router how many
>     bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes) and if frame
>     padding is included in the credits?
>
>
> I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the credit
> counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer.
Isn't this per radio? if so, doesn't it need to be indicated in the
protocol?

> Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the draft, IMO. 
>
l2 padding.  L1 encoding expansion is another matter that I wasn't
planning on bringing up...

Thanks,
Lou


> Regards,
> Stan
>
>  
>
>
>     Lou
>
>     > Regards,
>     > Stan
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Thanks,
>     >     Lou
>     >
>     >     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >     > Lou,
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger
>     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>> wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >     Stan, (Rick),
>     >     >         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The
>     text says:
>     >     >
>     >     >        The number of credits needed for a given
>     transmission is
>     >     the length
>     >     >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC
>     layer.  When
>     >     sending
>     >     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST
>     decrement the
>     >     >        appropriate window by the size of the data being sent,
>     >     prior to
>     >     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is
>     >     received, the
>     >     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after
>     decapsulation at
>     >     >     the MAC
>     >     >        layer.
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps
>     >     padding as
>     >     >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small
>     >     packet/frame?
>     >     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF
>     >     >     channel?  If
>     >     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how
>     >     does it
>     >     >     impact
>     >     >     processing?
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The
>     >     intent was
>     >     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or
>     >     sent up
>     >     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's
>     indicated in
>     >     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the
>     >     extension or
>     >     > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination Announce.
>     >     >
>     >     > Regards,
>     >     > Stan
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     Thanks,
>     >     >     Lou
>     >     >
>     >     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>     >     >     > Hi All,
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has
>     >     everyone had
>     >     >     a chance
>     >     >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally
>     >     like to get
>     >     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > Cheers,
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > Rick
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > _______________________________________________
>     >     >     > manet mailing list
>     >     >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
>     >     >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     _______________________________________________
>     >     >     manet mailing list
>     >     >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
>     >     >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>
>



From nobody Fri Mar 18 13:21:50 2016
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From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>,  Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP last call
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP last call
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I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).  The Credit
Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message
instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).  As I
read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request
messages, so modems can't request credits.

I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state
that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics
Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.  (I assume
we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)

This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so
hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.

David

On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"
<manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance
>to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
>draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>
>The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Rick
>
>_______________________________________________
>manet mailing list
>manet@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net> <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com> <56EC630C.1020604@labn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

> Stan,
>
>
> On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> > <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >     On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >     Stan,
> >     >
> >     >     Let me try a different tact:
> >     >
> >     >         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted
> >     over the air?
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >         If sometimes, under what conditions?
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.
> >     >
> >
> >     doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and padding,
> need
> >     to be part of the credits?
> >
> >     eg I have 1000bytes of credits.
> >
> >     In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte header and 4 bytes
> >     trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the credit
> allows:
> >     -  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1, including IP
> >     header), or
> >     - 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690 total
> length
> >     (64-18 * 15, including IP header),
> >
> >     or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get
> transmitted,
> >     the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.
> >
> >     How is a router to know what to include?  I think the router needs
> >     to be
> >     told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the router how
> many
> >     bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes) and if frame
> >     padding is included in the credits?
> >
> >
> > I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the credit
> > counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer.
> Isn't this per radio? if so, doesn't it need to be indicated in the
> protocol?
>
> > Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the draft, IMO.
> >
> l2 padding.  L1 encoding expansion is another matter that I wasn't
> planning on bringing up...
>

Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's rear'...
however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the lines of
"Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding
included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???

Regards,
Stan



>
> Thanks,
> Lou
>
>
> > Regards,
> > Stan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Lou
> >
> >     > Regards,
> >     > Stan
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     Thanks,
> >     >     Lou
> >     >
> >     >     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >     >     > Lou,
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger
> >     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
> >     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Stan, (Rick),
> >     >     >         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The
> >     text says:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >        The number of credits needed for a given
> >     transmission is
> >     >     the length
> >     >     >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC
> >     layer.  When
> >     >     sending
> >     >     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST
> >     decrement the
> >     >     >        appropriate window by the size of the data being sent,
> >     >     prior to
> >     >     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is
> >     >     received, the
> >     >     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after
> >     decapsulation at
> >     >     >     the MAC
> >     >     >        layer.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header & perhaps
> >     >     padding as
> >     >     >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of a small
> >     >     packet/frame?
> >     >     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the
> RF
> >     >     >     channel?  If
> >     >     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this indicated and how
> >     >     does it
> >     >     >     impact
> >     >     >     processing?
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet header. The
> >     >     intent was
> >     >     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or
> >     >     sent up
> >     >     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's
> >     indicated in
> >     >     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the
> >     >     extension or
> >     >     > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination
> Announce.
> >     >     >
> >     >     > Regards,
> >     >     > Stan
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Thanks,
> >     >     >     Lou
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> >     >     >     > Hi All,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has
> >     >     everyone had
> >     >     >     a chance
> >     >     >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally
> >     >     like to get
> >     >     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Cheers,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Rick
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > _______________________________________________
> >     >     >     > manet mailing list
> >     >     >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
> >     >     >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     _______________________________________________
> >     >     >     manet mailing list
> >     >     >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
> >     >     >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Lou Berger <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Stan,<br>
<br>
<br>
On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lber=
ger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net"=
>lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberge=
r@labn.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stan,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Let me try a different tact=
:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the MAC he=
ader sometimes/never/always transmitted<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over the air?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; OTA - depends on the radio architecture.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0If sometimes,=
 under what conditions?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn&#39;t whatever goes over the air, including h=
eader and padding, need<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be part of the credits?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0eg I have 1000bytes of credits.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the case of a radio that=C2=A0 that includes 14b=
yte header and 4 bytes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.=C2=A0 This =
means the credit allows:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (10=
00-18 * 1, including IP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0header), or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total =
of 690 total length<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(64-18 * 15, including IP header),<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don=
&#39;t get transmitted,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How is a router to know what to include?=C2=A0 I th=
ink the router needs<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0told what to do.=C2=A0 Perhaps have the radio just =
tell the router how many<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,=C2=A0 38 =
bytes) and if frame<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding is included in the credits?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the credit<=
br>
&gt; counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer.<br>
Isn&#39;t this per radio? if so, doesn&#39;t it need to be indicated in the=
<br>
protocol?<br>
<br>
&gt; Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the draft, I=
MO.<br>
&gt;<br>
l2 padding.=C2=A0 L1 encoding expansion is another matter that I wasn&#39;t=
<br>
planning on bringing up...<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Seems like s=
omething that is a statistical &#39;fly on the elephant&#39;s rear&#39;... =
however, to reach a conclusion - =C2=A0would adding some text along the lin=
es of &quot;Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any=
 padding included at the MAC layer.&quot; allay your concern???=C2=A0</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Lou<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan =
Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Lou,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 a=
t 3:14 PM, Lou Berger<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberg=
er@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sta=
n, (Rick),<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0One additional question WRT credit windows.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text says:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 The number of credits needed for a given<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmission is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the length<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 of the data portion of the packet at the MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer.=C2=A0 When<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sending<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decrement the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 appropriate window by the size of the data being sent,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0prior to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 encapsulation at the MAC layer.=C2=A0 When traffic is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0received, the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 receiver MUST decrement its own window after<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decapsulation at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the=
 MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 layer.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doe=
sn&#39;t it make sense to include the MAC header &amp; perhaps<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the=
y may account for a non-negligible portion of a small<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0packet/frame?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Or =
are ethernet headers and padding never sent over the RF<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cha=
nnel?=C2=A0 If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thi=
s is a per radio &#39;thing&#39; how is this indicated and how<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0does it<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0imp=
act<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pro=
cessing?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The MAC header is fixe=
d. Same with the Ethernet header. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0intent was<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; to count the bytes tha=
t are queued to go into L2/L1 encap (or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sent up<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; after L1/L2 de-encapsu=
lation). As for &quot;per radio&quot;, it&#39;s<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0indicated in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; the Peer Init/Peer Ini=
t response (you either support the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0extension or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; you don&#39;t), then a=
gain at Destination Up/Destination Announce.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tha=
nks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On =
3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; Hi All,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0everyone had<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a c=
hance<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; to read and submit any review comments, as I&#39;d ideally<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like to get<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; Cheers,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; Rick<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:25:55 -0400
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP last call
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David,

Yes, I think we can include that.

Regards,
Stan


On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <
David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

> I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).  The Credit
> Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message
> instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).  As I
> read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request
> messages, so modems can't request credits.
>
> I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state
> that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics
> Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.  (I assume
> we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)
>
> This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so
> hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.
>
> David
>
> On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"
> <manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance
> >to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
> >draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
> >
> >The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >manet mailing list
> >manet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">David,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Yes, I think we can includ=
e that.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,<br>Stan</div><div><br></div=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Ma=
r 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">David.Wiggins=
@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I just =
found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).=C2=A0 The Credit<br=
>
Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message<b=
r>
instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).=C2=A0 As I=
<br>
read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request<br>
messages, so modems can&#39;t request credits.<br>
<br>
I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state<=
br>
that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics<br>
Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.=C2=A0 (I assume<=
br>
we&#39;re allowing extensions to make such changes.)<br>
<br>
This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so<br>
hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, &quot;manet on behalf of Rick Taylor&quot;<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a> on=
 behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">rick@tropicals=
tormsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chanc=
e<br>
&gt;to read and submit any review comments, as I&#39;d ideally like to get<=
br>
&gt;draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 20:37:18 +0000
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
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I can't see the point of having a base draft that introduces a rule and a si=
multaneously published extension that modifies that rule. If the rule needs c=
hanging and that's known now, put it in the base specification.

-- =20
Christopher Dearlove
christopher.dearlove@gmail.com

> On 18 Mar 2016, at 20:25, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> David,=20
>=20
> Yes, I think we can include that.=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Stan
>=20
>=20
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <David.Wig=
gins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:
>> I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).  The Credi=
t
>> Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message=

>> instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).  As I
>> read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request
>> messages, so modems can't request credits.
>>=20
>> I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension stat=
e
>> that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics
>> Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.  (I assume
>> we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)
>>=20
>> This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so
>> hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.
>>=20
>> David
>>=20
>> On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"
>> <manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrot=
e:
>>=20
>> >Hi All,
>> >
>> >As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance=

>> >to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
>> >draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>> >
>> >The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >
>> >Rick
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >manet mailing list
>> >manet@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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	charset=utf-8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I can't see the point of having a base=
 draft that introduces a rule and a simultaneously published extension that m=
odifies that rule. If the rule needs changing and that's known now, put it i=
n the base specification.<br><br>-- &nbsp;<div>Christopher Dearlove</div><di=
v><a href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com">christopher.dearlove@gma=
il.com</a></div></div><div><br>On 18 Mar 2016, at 20:25, Stan Ratliff &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">David,&nbsp;<di=
v><br></div><div>Yes, I think we can include that.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div=
><div>Regards,<br>Stan</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, Dav=
id - 0665 - MITLL <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.m=
it.edu" target=3D"_blank">David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I just found a small issue in the credit windo=
wing draft (02).&nbsp; The Credit<br>
Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message<br=
>
instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).&nbsp; As I<=
br>
read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request<br>
messages, so modems can't request credits.<br>
<br>
I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state<b=
r>
that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics<br>
Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.&nbsp; (I assume<b=
r>
we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)<br>
<br>
This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so<br>
hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a> on b=
ehalf of <a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">rick@tropicalstor=
msoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance=
<br>
&gt;to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get<br>
&gt;draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>manet mailing list</span><br><sp=
an><a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a></span><br><span><a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet">https://www.ietf.org/mai=
lman/listinfo/manet</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>=

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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net> <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com> <56EC630C.1020604@labn.net> <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:52:25 -0400
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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On 3/18/2016 4:25 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
>
>     Stan,
>
>
>     On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger
>     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>> wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >     Stan,
>     >     >
>     >     >     Let me try a different tact:
>     >     >
>     >     >         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted
>     >     over the air?
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >         If sometimes, under what conditions?
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.
>     >     >
>     >
>     >     doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and
>     padding, need
>     >     to be part of the credits?
>     >
>     >     eg I have 1000bytes of credits.
>     >
>     >     In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte header and
>     4 bytes
>     >     trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the
>     credit allows:
>     >     -  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1,
>     including IP
>     >     header), or
>     >     - 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690
>     total length
>     >     (64-18 * 15, including IP header),
>     >
>     >     or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get
>     transmitted,
>     >     the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.
>     >
>     >     How is a router to know what to include?  I think the router
>     needs
>     >     to be
>     >     told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the
>     router how many
>     >     bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes) and if
>     frame
>     >     padding is included in the credits?
>     >
>     >
>     > I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the
>     credit
>     > counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer.
>     Isn't this per radio? if so, doesn't it need to be indicated in the
>     protocol?
>
>     > Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the
>     draft, IMO.
>     >
>     l2 padding.  L1 encoding expansion is another matter that I wasn't
>     planning on bringing up...
>
>
> Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's rear'
whatever.

> ... however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the
> lines of "Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and
> any padding included at the MAC layer." allay your concern??? 
>
If the macs over went over the air, i.e., the resource being metered ,
then yes. *But* you said:
 > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
So I don't understand how it can't be an indicated thing.

Either add a bit to the Credit Grant or add two extension types and move on.

Lou

> Regards,
> Stan
>
>  
>
>
>     Thanks,
>     Lou
>
>
>     > Regards,
>     > Stan
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Lou
>     >
>     >     > Regards,
>     >     > Stan
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     Thanks,
>     >     >     Lou
>     >     >
>     >     >     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >     >     > Lou,
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger
>     >     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>
>     >     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>>> wrote:
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     Stan, (Rick),
>     >     >     >         One additional question WRT credit windows.  The
>     >     text says:
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >        The number of credits needed for a given
>     >     transmission is
>     >     >     the length
>     >     >     >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC
>     >     layer.  When
>     >     >     sending
>     >     >     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST
>     >     decrement the
>     >     >     >        appropriate window by the size of the data
>     being sent,
>     >     >     prior to
>     >     >     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is
>     >     >     received, the
>     >     >     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after
>     >     decapsulation at
>     >     >     >     the MAC
>     >     >     >        layer.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header
>     & perhaps
>     >     >     padding as
>     >     >     >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of
>     a small
>     >     >     packet/frame?
>     >     >     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent
>     over the RF
>     >     >     >     channel?  If
>     >     >     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this
>     indicated and how
>     >     >     does it
>     >     >     >     impact
>     >     >     >     processing?
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet
>     header. The
>     >     >     intent was
>     >     >     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1
>     encap (or
>     >     >     sent up
>     >     >     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's
>     >     indicated in
>     >     >     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the
>     >     >     extension or
>     >     >     > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination
>     Announce.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > Regards,
>     >     >     > Stan
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     Thanks,
>     >     >     >     Lou
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>     >     >     >     > Hi All,
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has
>     >     >     everyone had
>     >     >     >     a chance
>     >     >     >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd
>     ideally
>     >     >     like to get
>     >     >     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the
>     chain.
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > Cheers,
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > Rick
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > _______________________________________________
>     >     >     >     > manet mailing list
>     >     >     >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
>     >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>>
>     >     >     >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     _______________________________________________
>     >     >     >     manet mailing list
>     >     >     >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
>     >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
>     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>>
>     >     >     >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>
>
>



From nobody Fri Mar 18 14:02:43 2016
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In-Reply-To: <56EC6A89.8020405@labn.net>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net> <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com> <56EC630C.1020604@labn.net> <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com> <56EC6A89.8020405@labn.net>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 17:02:37 -0400
Message-ID: <CALtoyonyOEONdviidN5QArMKJi8CuEDgpYvC8jPPv0=n2tuT+g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/i7z_LI5tkiWrTKRIiC0VnIHyAss>
Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net> wrote:

>
>
> On 3/18/2016 4:25 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> > <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
> >
> >     Stan,
> >
> >
> >     On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger
> >     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
> >     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Stan,
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Let me try a different tact:
> >     >     >
> >     >     >         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted
> >     >     over the air?
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >         If sometimes, under what conditions?
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     > 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >     doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and
> >     padding, need
> >     >     to be part of the credits?
> >     >
> >     >     eg I have 1000bytes of credits.
> >     >
> >     >     In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte header and
> >     4 bytes
> >     >     trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the
> >     credit allows:
> >     >     -  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1,
> >     including IP
> >     >     header), or
> >     >     - 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690
> >     total length
> >     >     (64-18 * 15, including IP header),
> >     >
> >     >     or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get
> >     transmitted,
> >     >     the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.
> >     >
> >     >     How is a router to know what to include?  I think the router
> >     needs
> >     >     to be
> >     >     told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the
> >     router how many
> >     >     bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes) and if
> >     frame
> >     >     padding is included in the credits?
> >     >
> >     >
> >     > I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the
> >     credit
> >     > counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer.
> >     Isn't this per radio? if so, doesn't it need to be indicated in the
> >     protocol?
> >
> >     > Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the
> >     draft, IMO.
> >     >
> >     l2 padding.  L1 encoding expansion is another matter that I wasn't
> >     planning on bringing up...
> >
> >
> > Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's rear'
> whatever.
>
> > ... however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the
> > lines of "Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and
> > any padding included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???
> >
> If the macs over went over the air, i.e., the resource being metered ,
> then yes. *But* you said:
>  > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
> So I don't understand how it can't be an indicated thing.
>


Credits aren't intended to compensate for OTA transmission - they're only
good between local modem and router. This is just intended to say, at the
link level between the DLEP partners, "send me <blah> octets, then pause
unless/until I tell you to send me more" Nothing about OTA expressed or
implied.

Stan



>
> Either add a bit to the Credit Grant or add two extension types and move
> on.
>
> Lou
>
> > Regards,
> > Stan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Thanks,
> >     Lou
> >
> >
> >     > Regards,
> >     > Stan
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >     Lou
> >     >
> >     >     > Regards,
> >     >     > Stan
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     Thanks,
> >     >     >     Lou
> >     >     >
> >     >     >     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
> >     >     >     > Lou,
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger
> >     >     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>
> >     >     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
> >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
> >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>>> wrote:
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Stan, (Rick),
> >     >     >     >         One additional question WRT credit windows.
> The
> >     >     text says:
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >        The number of credits needed for a given
> >     >     transmission is
> >     >     >     the length
> >     >     >     >        of the data portion of the packet at the MAC
> >     >     layer.  When
> >     >     >     sending
> >     >     >     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST
> >     >     decrement the
> >     >     >     >        appropriate window by the size of the data
> >     being sent,
> >     >     >     prior to
> >     >     >     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When traffic is
> >     >     >     received, the
> >     >     >     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window after
> >     >     decapsulation at
> >     >     >     >     the MAC
> >     >     >     >        layer.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC header
> >     & perhaps
> >     >     >     padding as
> >     >     >     >     they may account for a non-negligible portion of
> >     a small
> >     >     >     packet/frame?
> >     >     >     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent
> >     over the RF
> >     >     >     >     channel?  If
> >     >     >     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this
> >     indicated and how
> >     >     >     does it
> >     >     >     >     impact
> >     >     >     >     processing?
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet
> >     header. The
> >     >     >     intent was
> >     >     >     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1
> >     encap (or
> >     >     >     sent up
> >     >     >     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per radio", it's
> >     >     indicated in
> >     >     >     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support
> the
> >     >     >     extension or
> >     >     >     > you don't), then again at Destination Up/Destination
> >     Announce.
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     > Regards,
> >     >     >     > Stan
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     Thanks,
> >     >     >     >     Lou
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
> >     >     >     >     > Hi All,
> >     >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP,
> has
> >     >     >     everyone had
> >     >     >     >     a chance
> >     >     >     >     > to read and submit any review comments, as I'd
> >     ideally
> >     >     >     like to get
> >     >     >     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the
> >     chain.
> >     >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >     >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     > Cheers,
> >     >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     > Rick
> >     >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     > _______________________________________________
> >     >     >     >     > manet mailing list
> >     >     >     >     > manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>>
> >     >     >     >     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >     _______________________________________________
> >     >     >     >     manet mailing list
> >     >     >     >     manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>
> >     >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>
> >     >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>>>>
> >     >     >     >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >     >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

--001a1135f1461ebe25052e5911cb
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Lou Berger <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net" target=3D"_blank">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 3/18/2016 4:25 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Lou Berger &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lber=
ger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stan,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net"=
>lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberge=
r@labn.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan =
Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 a=
t 3:29 PM, Lou Berger<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</=
a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberg=
er@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"=
mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:=
lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sta=
n,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Let=
 me try a different tact:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always transmitted<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over the air?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; OTA - depends on the r=
adio architecture.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0If sometimes, under what conditions?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; 802.11, for example, t=
ransmits the MAC OTA.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn&#39;t whatever goes o=
ver the air, including header and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding, need<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be part of the credits?<=
br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0eg I have 1000bytes of cred=
its.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In the case of a radio that=
=C2=A0 that includes 14byte header and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A04 bytes<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trailer on -air and no prea=
mble of IPG.=C2=A0 This means the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0credit allows:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 one IP packet of 98=
2 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0including IP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0header), or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- 15 minimum size packets w=
/o padding for at total of 690<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0total length<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(64-18 * 15, including IP h=
eader),<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0or in the case where the MA=
C header and trailer don&#39;t get<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmitted,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the router can send a 1000 =
byte IP packet.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0How is a router to know wha=
t to include?=C2=A0 I think the router<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0needs<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to be<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0told what to do.=C2=A0 Perh=
aps have the radio just tell the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0router how many<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0bytes to include per packet=
 (e.g., 0, 18,=C2=A0 38 bytes) and if<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0frame<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0padding is included in the =
credits?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is=
 included in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0credit<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; counts. That gets everything through the MAC l=
ayer.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Isn&#39;t this per radio? if so, doesn&#39;t it nee=
d to be indicated in the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0protocol?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside t=
he scope of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft, IMO.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0l2 padding.=C2=A0 L1 encoding expansion is another =
matter that I wasn&#39;t<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0planning on bringing up...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Seems like something that is a statistical &#39;fly on the elephant&#3=
9;s rear&#39;<br>
whatever.<br>
<br>
&gt; ... however, to reach a conclusion -=C2=A0 would adding some text alon=
g the<br>
&gt; lines of &quot;Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header,=
 and<br>
&gt; any padding included at the MAC layer.&quot; allay your concern???<br>
&gt;<br>
If the macs over went over the air, i.e., the resource being metered ,<br>
then yes. *But* you said:<br>
=C2=A0&gt; OTA - depends on the radio architecture.<br>
So I don&#39;t understand how it can&#39;t be an indicated thing.<br></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Credits aren&#39;t intended to co=
mpensate for OTA transmission - they&#39;re only good between local modem a=
nd router. This is just intended to say, at the link level between the DLEP=
 partners, &quot;send me &lt;blah&gt; octets, then pause unless/until I tel=
l you to send me more&quot; Nothing about OTA expressed or implied.=C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Either add a bit to the Credit Grant or add two extension types and move on=
.<br>
<br>
Lou<br>
<br>
&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tha=
nks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On =
3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; Lou,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lberg=
er@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn=
.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto=
:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;m=
ailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:lberger@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberg=
er@labn.net">lberger@labn.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lber=
ger@labn.net</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lberger@labn.net">lberger@lab=
n.net</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stan, (Rick),<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0One additional question WRT credit windo=
ws.=C2=A0 The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0text says:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 The number of credits needed for a given<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transmission is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the=
 length<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the data portion of the packet at the MAC<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0layer.=C2=A0 When<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sen=
ding<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 data to a credit enabled peer, the sender MUST=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decrement the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 appropriate window by the size of the data<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0being sent,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pri=
or to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encapsulation at the MAC layer.=C2=A0 When tra=
ffic is<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rec=
eived, the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 receiver MUST decrement its own window after<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0decapsulation at<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the MAC<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 layer.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Doesn&#39;t it make sense to include the MAC header<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&amp; perhaps<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pad=
ding as<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0they may account for a non-negligible portion of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a small<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pac=
ket/frame?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0over the RF<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0channel?=C2=A0 If<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this is a per radio &#39;thing&#39; how is this<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0indicated and how<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doe=
s it<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0impact<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0processing?<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0header. The<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0int=
ent was<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; to count the bytes that are queued to go into L2/L1<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0encap (or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sen=
t up<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for &quot;per radio&quot;, it&#39;s<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0indicated in<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either support the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ext=
ension or<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; you don&#39;t), then again at Destination Up/Destination<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Announce.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; Regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
; Stan<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Lou<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Hi All,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, ha=
s<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0eve=
ryone had<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0a chance<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; to read and submit any review comments, as I&#39;=
d<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ideally<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lik=
e to get<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0chain.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; _______________________________________________<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org<=
/a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@iet=
f.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@iet=
f.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/=
manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0manet mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &=
lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@iet=
f.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt=
;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@iet=
f.org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@=
ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/manet</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt=
;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1135f1461ebe25052e5911cb--


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From: "James A. (Jim) Stevens" <james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
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--001a11419184413280052e59bb9b
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>Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400
>From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
>Message-ID:
        <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com=
>
>
>Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's rear'...
>however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the lines o=
f
>"Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding
>included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???
>
>Regards,
>Stan

Because some radio networks have their own over-the-air (OTA) MAC and MAC
addressing between Modem devices (radios) different than they use for the
baseband (BB) MAC between the Modem device and Router (this is like the
logical tunneling between Modem devices mentioned in section 2 of DLEP-20),
I want to reiterate that we are talking about the BB MAC and not the OTA
MAC.



Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router

           BB                  OTA                 BB



I work with a variety of different non-commercial MANET waveforms that have
different ways of sending the BB data OTA.  Most use IEEE 802.3 Ethernet or
PPP as the BB MAC between the Router and Modem.



Many send the entire BB MAC header + IP header + IP payload encapsulated in
the OTA MAC payload.



 Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

                             | OTA MAC|

                             +--------+



Others compress the BB MAC header and only send the IP header + IP payload
encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload



 Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         | BB MAC |          |compress|          | BB MAC |

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

                             | OTA MAC|

                             +--------+



Others compress both the BB MAC and IP headers before sending the
compressed header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.



 Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         | IP Hdr |          |compress|          | IP Hdr |

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+

         | BB MAC |          | OTA MAC|          | BB MAC |

         +--------+          +--------+          +--------+



And the size of the compression can vary depending upon the prior and
current state of the headers and compression.



So of the choices



(1) include IP payload, IP header, and BB MAC in credit window



(2) include only the IP payload and IP header in the credit window



(3) include only the IP payload in the credit window



I RECOMMEND choice (1)because if the Modem does compression, then sometimes
the Router is paced even when it might have had space to send a little bit
more traffic.



But that is better than choices (2) or (3) because either

(a) cases arise where the headers have to be sent uncompressed and hence
the Router might think it has space to send more data when it really
didn=E2=80=99t, or

(b) the Modem always reserved extra space for uncompressed headers =E2=80=
=93 but
because it doesn=E2=80=99t know if they are long or short IP packets, it ha=
s to
include a lot of excessive padding and hence could flow control the Router
when it doesn=E2=80=99t need to

--=20
James A. (Jim) Stevens, PhD
Network Architect / Technical Fellow
Rockwell Collins Government Systems

--001a11419184413280052e59bb9b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-size:small"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;;background-image:in=
itial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Date: Fri, 18
Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#=
39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;"><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;From=
:
Stan Ratliff &lt;</span></span><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Arial monosp=
aced for SAP&#39;"><a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com"><span style=3D"=
font-size:9.5pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">ratliff=
stan@gmail.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:=
&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;;background-image:initial;background-repe=
at:initial">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Aria=
l monospaced for SAP&#39;"><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Mess=
age-ID:</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;</span></span><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Aria=
l monospaced for SAP&#39;"><a href=3D"mailto:CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx%2B%2Bi_K4=
k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;ba=
ckground-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K=
4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;;background-im=
age:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;"><br>
&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Seem=
s
like something that is a statistical &#39;fly on the elephant&#39;s rear&#3=
9;...</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;howe=
ver,
to reach a conclusion -=C2=A0 would adding some text along the lines of</sp=
an><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;&quo=
t;Credit
counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;incl=
uded
at the MAC layer.&quot; allay your concern???</span><br>
&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Rega=
rds,</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Stan=
</span><br>
<br>
</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Because some ra=
dio networks have
their own over-the-air (OTA) MAC and MAC addressing between Modem devices
(radios) different than they use for the baseband (BB) MAC between the Mode=
m
device and Router (this is like the logical tunneling between Modem devices
mentioned in section 2 of DLEP-20), I want to reiterate that we are talking
about the BB MAC and not the OTA MAC.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Router &lt;=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BB=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 OTA=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BB<b></b></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">I work with a v=
ariety of different non-commercial
MANET waveforms that have different ways of sending the BB data OTA.=C2=A0 =
Most use IEEE 802.3 Ethernet or PPP as the BB
MAC between the Router and Modem.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Many send the e=
ntire BB MAC header +
IP header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0Router &l=
t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+------=
--+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0| OTA MAC|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 +--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Others compress=
 the BB MAC header and
only send the IP header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload</s=
pan></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0Router &l=
t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+------=
--+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|compress|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0| OTA MAC|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 +--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Others compress=
 both the BB MAC and
IP headers before sending the compressed header + IP payload encapsulated i=
n
the OTA MAC payload.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0Router &l=
t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|compress|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+------=
--+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| OTA MAC|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">And the size of=
 the compression can
vary depending upon the prior and current state of the headers and compress=
ion.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">So of the choic=
es</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(1) include IP =
payload, IP header,
and BB MAC in credit window</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(2) include onl=
y the IP payload and
IP header in the credit window</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(3) include onl=
y the IP payload in
the credit window</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">I RECOMMEND cho=
ice (1)because if the
Modem does compression, then sometimes the Router is paced even when it mig=
ht
have had space to send a little bit more traffic.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">But that is bet=
ter than choices (2)
or (3) because either </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(a) cases arise=
 where the headers
have to be sent uncompressed and hence the Router might think it has space =
to
send more data when it really didn=E2=80=99t, or</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(b) the Modem a=
lways reserved extra
space for uncompressed headers =E2=80=93 but because it doesn=E2=80=99t kno=
w if they are long
or short IP packets, it has to include a lot of excessive padding and hence=
 could flow control
the Router when it doesn=E2=80=99t need to</span></p></div><div><br></div>-=
- <br><div class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr">James A. (Jim) Steven=
s, PhD<div>Network Architect / Technical Fellow</div><div>Rockwell Collins =
Government Systems</div><div><br></div></div></div>
</div>

--001a11419184413280052e59bb9b--


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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net> <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com> <56EC630C.1020604@labn.net> <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com> <56EC6A89.8020405@labn.net> <CALtoyonyOEONdviidN5QArMKJi8CuEDgpYvC8jPPv0=n2tuT+g@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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Stan,

On 3/18/2016 5:02 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
> <mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote:
>
>
>
>     On 3/18/2016 4:25 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >
>     >
>     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:20 PM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     Stan,
>     >
>     >
>     >     On 3/18/2016 4:03 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Lou Berger
>     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>> wrote:
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     On 3/18/2016 3:33 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:29 PM, Lou Berger
>     >     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>
>     >     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>>> wrote:
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     Stan,
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     Let me try a different tact:
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >         Is the MAC header sometimes/never/always
>     transmitted
>     >     >     over the air?
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >         If sometimes, under what conditions?
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     > 802.11, for example, transmits the MAC OTA.
>     >     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     doesn't whatever goes over the air, including header and
>     >     padding, need
>     >     >     to be part of the credits?
>     >     >
>     >     >     eg I have 1000bytes of credits.
>     >     >
>     >     >     In the case of a radio that  that includes 14byte
>     header and
>     >     4 bytes
>     >     >     trailer on -air and no preamble of IPG.  This means the
>     >     credit allows:
>     >     >     -  one IP packet of 982 bytes total length (1000-18 * 1,
>     >     including IP
>     >     >     header), or
>     >     >     - 15 minimum size packets w/o padding for at total of 690
>     >     total length
>     >     >     (64-18 * 15, including IP header),
>     >     >
>     >     >     or in the case where the MAC header and trailer don't get
>     >     transmitted,
>     >     >     the router can send a 1000 byte IP packet.
>     >     >
>     >     >     How is a router to know what to include?  I think the
>     router
>     >     needs
>     >     >     to be
>     >     >     told what to do.  Perhaps have the radio just tell the
>     >     router how many
>     >     >     bytes to include per packet (e.g., 0, 18,  38 bytes)
>     and if
>     >     frame
>     >     >     padding is included in the credits?
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     > I can go with a scheme where the MAC header is included in the
>     >     credit
>     >     > counts. That gets everything through the MAC layer.
>     >     Isn't this per radio? if so, doesn't it need to be indicated
>     in the
>     >     protocol?
>     >
>     >     > Padding, if it occurs at Layer 1, is outside the scope of the
>     >     draft, IMO.
>     >     >
>     >     l2 padding.  L1 encoding expansion is another matter that I
>     wasn't
>     >     planning on bringing up...
>     >
>     >
>     > Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the
>     elephant's rear'
>     whatever.
>
>     > ... however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text
>     along the
>     > lines of "Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC
>     header, and
>     > any padding included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???
>     >
>     If the macs over went over the air, i.e., the resource being metered ,
>     then yes. *But* you said:
>      > OTA - depends on the radio architecture.
>     So I don't understand how it can't be an indicated thing.
>
>
>
> Credits aren't intended to compensate for OTA transmission - they're
> only good between local modem and router.

huh?  I think you lost me.

> This is just intended to say, at the link level between the DLEP
> partners, "send me <blah> octets, then pause unless/until I tell you
> to send me more" Nothing about OTA expressed or implied. 
>

Then what's the purpose of this extension?  I thought it was all about
OTA (RF) bandwidth usage?

BTW

  1.  Introduction

   In the world of radio-based networking, there are modems that need
   fine-grained flow control over traffic ingressing from a LAN
   connection, bound for transmission over the RF.  The need for such
   fine-grained control can exist for multiple reasons.  For example,
   radio devices are typically connected to the network by Ethernet.
   The capacity of an Ethernet link is normally far superior to that of
   the RF, leading to the possibility of overruns and dropped traffic.
   This is exacerbated by the fact that RF link capacity can vary from
   moment to moment, for an indeterminate amount of time.  Additionally,
   the capacity of the link can vary greatly depending on the
   destination, due to factors such as obstructions or multipath fading.

   These challenges motivate the requirement for a fine-grained flow
   control in radio-based communications - one that can support
   different window sizes for each destination accessed across the RF
   network.  To address this requirement, this document describes an
   extension to the Dynamic Link Event Protocol ([DLEP]), allowing for a
   Credit windowing scheme to be implemented on a destination-by-
   destination basis.


Lou

> Stan
>
>  
>
>
>     Either add a bit to the Credit Grant or add two extension types
>     and move on.
>
>     Lou
>
>     > Regards,
>     > Stan
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >     Thanks,
>     >     Lou
>     >
>     >
>     >     > Regards,
>     >     > Stan
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >
>     >     >     Lou
>     >     >
>     >     >     > Regards,
>     >     >     > Stan
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     Thanks,
>     >     >     >     Lou
>     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     On 3/18/2016 3:20 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>     >     >     >     > Lou,
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Lou Berger
>     >     >     <lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>
>     >     >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net> <mailto:lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>>
>     >     >     >     > <mailto:lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net> <mailto:lberger@labn.net
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>
>     >     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>
>     >     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>
>     <mailto:lberger@labn.net <mailto:lberger@labn.net>>>>>> wrote:
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     Stan, (Rick),
>     >     >     >     >         One additional question WRT credit
>     windows.  The
>     >     >     text says:
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >        The number of credits needed for a given
>     >     >     transmission is
>     >     >     >     the length
>     >     >     >     >        of the data portion of the packet at
>     the MAC
>     >     >     layer.  When
>     >     >     >     sending
>     >     >     >     >        data to a credit enabled peer, the
>     sender MUST
>     >     >     decrement the
>     >     >     >     >        appropriate window by the size of the data
>     >     being sent,
>     >     >     >     prior to
>     >     >     >     >        encapsulation at the MAC layer.  When
>     traffic is
>     >     >     >     received, the
>     >     >     >     >        receiver MUST decrement its own window
>     after
>     >     >     decapsulation at
>     >     >     >     >     the MAC
>     >     >     >     >        layer.
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     Doesn't it make sense to include the MAC
>     header
>     >     & perhaps
>     >     >     >     padding as
>     >     >     >     >     they may account for a non-negligible
>     portion of
>     >     a small
>     >     >     >     packet/frame?
>     >     >     >     >     Or are ethernet headers and padding never sent
>     >     over the RF
>     >     >     >     >     channel?  If
>     >     >     >     >     this is a per radio 'thing' how is this
>     >     indicated and how
>     >     >     >     does it
>     >     >     >     >     impact
>     >     >     >     >     processing?
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > The MAC header is fixed. Same with the Ethernet
>     >     header. The
>     >     >     >     intent was
>     >     >     >     > to count the bytes that are queued to go into
>     L2/L1
>     >     encap (or
>     >     >     >     sent up
>     >     >     >     > after L1/L2 de-encapsulation). As for "per
>     radio", it's
>     >     >     indicated in
>     >     >     >     > the Peer Init/Peer Init response (you either
>     support the
>     >     >     >     extension or
>     >     >     >     > you don't), then again at Destination
>     Up/Destination
>     >     Announce.
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     > Regards,
>     >     >     >     > Stan
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     Thanks,
>     >     >     >     >     Lou
>     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     On 3/18/2016 9:05 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>     >     >     >     >     > Hi All,
>     >     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     > As we are looking to exit last-call with
>     DLEP, has
>     >     >     >     everyone had
>     >     >     >     >     a chance
>     >     >     >     >     > to read and submit any review comments,
>     as I'd
>     >     ideally
>     >     >     >     like to get
>     >     >     >     >     > draft-21 out ASAP and move the document
>     up the
>     >     chain.
>     >     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     > The same applies to the credit windowing
>     draft.
>     >     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     > Cheers,
>     >     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     > Rick
>     >     >     >     >     >
>     >     >     >     >     >
>     _______________________________________________
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
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Jim,

Thanks for that info. I'll be crafting text this weekend.

Regards,
Stan

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 5:50 PM, James A. (Jim) Stevens <
james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com> wrote:

> >Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400
> >From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
> >Message-ID:
>         <
> CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com>
> >
> >Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's rear'.=
..
> >however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the lines
> of
> >"Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding
> >included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???
> >
> >Regards,
> >Stan
>
> Because some radio networks have their own over-the-air (OTA) MAC and MAC
> addressing between Modem devices (radios) different than they use for the
> baseband (BB) MAC between the Modem device and Router (this is like the
> logical tunneling between Modem devices mentioned in section 2 of DLEP-20=
),
> I want to reiterate that we are talking about the BB MAC and not the OTA
> MAC.
>
>
>
> Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>            BB                  OTA                 BB
>
>
>
> I work with a variety of different non-commercial MANET waveforms that
> have different ways of sending the BB data OTA.  Most use IEEE 802.3
> Ethernet or PPP as the BB MAC between the Router and Modem.
>
>
>
> Many send the entire BB MAC header + IP header + IP payload encapsulated
> in the OTA MAC payload.
>
>
>
>  Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>                              | OTA MAC|
>
>                              +--------+
>
>
>
> Others compress the BB MAC header and only send the IP header + IP payloa=
d
> encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload
>
>
>
>  Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          |compress|          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>                              | OTA MAC|
>
>                              +--------+
>
>
>
> Others compress both the BB MAC and IP headers before sending the
> compressed header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.
>
>
>
>  Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          |compress|          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          | OTA MAC|          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>
>
> And the size of the compression can vary depending upon the prior and
> current state of the headers and compression.
>
>
>
> So of the choices
>
>
>
> (1) include IP payload, IP header, and BB MAC in credit window
>
>
>
> (2) include only the IP payload and IP header in the credit window
>
>
>
> (3) include only the IP payload in the credit window
>
>
>
> I RECOMMEND choice (1)because if the Modem does compression, then
> sometimes the Router is paced even when it might have had space to send a
> little bit more traffic.
>
>
>
> But that is better than choices (2) or (3) because either
>
> (a) cases arise where the headers have to be sent uncompressed and hence
> the Router might think it has space to send more data when it really
> didn=E2=80=99t, or
>
> (b) the Modem always reserved extra space for uncompressed headers =E2=80=
=93 but
> because it doesn=E2=80=99t know if they are long or short IP packets, it =
has to
> include a lot of excessive padding and hence could flow control the Route=
r
> when it doesn=E2=80=99t need to
>
> --
> James A. (Jim) Stevens, PhD
> Network Architect / Technical Fellow
> Rockwell Collins Government Systems
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--001a1141f3560f113c052e5db5df
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Jim,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Thanks for that info. I&#39;=
ll be crafting text this weekend.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</=
div><div>Stan</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 5:50 PM, James A. (Jim) Stevens <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com" target=
=3D"_blank">james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-size:small"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0=
001pt"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for=
 SAP&#39;;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Date: Fri=
, 18
Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#=
39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;"><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;From=
:
Stan Ratliff &lt;</span></span><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Arial monosp=
aced for SAP&#39;"><a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k"><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;background-image:initial;background-repea=
t:initial">ratliffstan@gmail.com</span></a></span><span style=3D"font-size:=
9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;;background-image:initi=
al;background-repeat:initial">&gt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;"><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Mess=
age-ID:</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;</span></span><span style=3D"font-family:&#39;Aria=
l monospaced for SAP&#39;"><a href=3D"mailto:CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx%2B%2Bi_K4=
k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"=
font-size:9.5pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">CALtoyo=
k6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com</span></a></spa=
n><span style=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&=
#39;;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;"><br=
>
&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Seem=
s
like something that is a statistical &#39;fly on the elephant&#39;s rear&#3=
9;...</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;howe=
ver,
to reach a conclusion -=C2=A0 would adding some text along the lines of</sp=
an><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;&quo=
t;Credit
counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;incl=
uded
at the MAC layer.&quot; allay your concern???</span><br>
&gt;<br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Rega=
rds,</span><br>
<span style=3D"background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">&gt;Stan=
</span><br>
<br>
</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Because some ra=
dio networks have
their own over-the-air (OTA) MAC and MAC addressing between Modem devices
(radios) different than they use for the baseband (BB) MAC between the Mode=
m
device and Router (this is like the logical tunneling between Modem devices
mentioned in section 2 of DLEP-20), I want to reiterate that we are talking
about the BB MAC and not the OTA MAC.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Router &lt;=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BB=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 OTA=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 BB<b></b></span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">I work with a v=
ariety of different non-commercial
MANET waveforms that have different ways of sending the BB data OTA.=C2=A0 =
Most use IEEE 802.3 Ethernet or PPP as the BB
MAC between the Router and Modem.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Many send the e=
ntire BB MAC header +
IP header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0Router &l=
t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+------=
--+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0| OTA MAC|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 +--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Others compress=
 the BB MAC header and
only send the IP header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload</s=
pan></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0Router &l=
t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+------=
--+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|compress|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0| OTA MAC|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 +--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">Others compress=
 both the BB MAC and
IP headers before sending the compressed header + IP payload encapsulated i=
n
the OTA MAC payload.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0Router &l=
t;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D&gt;
Modem &lt;=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D&gt; Router </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|IP payld|</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|compress|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| IP Hdr |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+ =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+------=
--+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0| OTA MAC|=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0| BB MAC |</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0+--------+</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">And the size of=
 the compression can
vary depending upon the prior and current state of the headers and compress=
ion.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">So of the choic=
es</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(1) include IP =
payload, IP header,
and BB MAC in credit window</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(2) include onl=
y the IP payload and
IP header in the credit window</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(3) include onl=
y the IP payload in
the credit window</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">I RECOMMEND cho=
ice (1)because if the
Modem does compression, then sometimes the Router is paced even when it mig=
ht
have had space to send a little bit more traffic.</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">=C2=A0</span></=
p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">But that is bet=
ter than choices (2)
or (3) because either </span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(a) cases arise=
 where the headers
have to be sent uncompressed and hence the Router might think it has space =
to
send more data when it really didn=E2=80=99t, or</span></p>

<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style=3D"font=
-size:9.5pt;font-family:&#39;Arial monospaced for SAP&#39;">(b) the Modem a=
lways reserved extra
space for uncompressed headers =E2=80=93 but because it doesn=E2=80=99t kno=
w if they are long
or short IP packets, it has to include a lot of excessive padding and hence=
 could flow control
the Router when it doesn=E2=80=99t need to</span></p></div><span class=3D"H=
OEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div>-- <br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
James A. (Jim) Stevens, PhD<div>Network Architect / Technical Fellow</div><=
div>Rockwell Collins Government Systems</div><div><br></div></div></div>
</font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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In-Reply-To: <D311D6C2.195C%David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
References: <D311D6C2.195C%David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 22:43:10 -0400
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP last call
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David,

I went back and looked at the draft. Here is what I find (in part) in -02
Credit Windowing on Credit Request:

8.3 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02#section-8.3>.
Credit Request

   The Credit Request data item MAY be sent from either DLEP
   participant, as a data item in a DLEP Destination Update message, to
   indicate the desire for the partner to grant additional credits in
   order for data transfer to proceed on the session.



So, I'm not seeing a problem? Perhaps the text above should also include
Link Characteristics Request, but the original intent was to use
Destination Update, which is still bo-directional.

Regards,
Stan


On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <
David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

> I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).  The Credit
> Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message
> instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).  As I
> read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request
> messages, so modems can't request credits.
>
> I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state
> that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics
> Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.  (I assume
> we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)
>
> This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so
> hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.
>
> David
>
> On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"
> <manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi All,
> >
> >As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance
> >to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
> >draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
> >
> >The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >manet mailing list
> >manet@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--089e013c6f5e05dff7052e5dd3bf
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">David,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>I went back and looked at =
the draft. Here is what I find (in part) in -02 Credit Windowing on Credit =
Request:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><pre class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:=
13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D=
"" style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold">=
<h3 style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"" na=
me=3D"section-8.3" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-cre=
dit-window-02#section-8.3" style=3D"color:black;text-decoration:none">8.3</=
a>.  Credit Request</h3></span>

   The Credit Request data item MAY be sent from either DLEP
   participant, as a data item in a DLEP Destination Update message, to
   indicate the desire for the partner to grant additional credits in
   order for data transfer to proceed on the session.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So, I&#39;m not seeing a pro=
blem? Perhaps the text above should also include Link Characteristics Reque=
st, but the original intent was to use Destination Update, which is still b=
o-directional.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div>=
<div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">David=
.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).=C2=A0 The C=
redit<br>
Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message<b=
r>
instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).=C2=A0 As I=
<br>
read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request<br>
messages, so modems can&#39;t request credits.<br>
<br>
I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state<=
br>
that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics<br>
Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.=C2=A0 (I assume<=
br>
we&#39;re allowing extensions to make such changes.)<br>
<br>
This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so<br>
hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.<br>
<br>
David<br>
<br>
On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, &quot;manet on behalf of Rick Taylor&quot;<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a> on=
 behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">rick@tropicals=
tormsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chanc=
e<br>
&gt;to read and submit any review comments, as I&#39;d ideally like to get<=
br>
&gt;draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 12:34:39 +0100
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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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Hi Thomas,
thank you for reviewing AODVv2 yet again :) Some answers below:

> Am 17.03.2016 um 17:00 schrieb ietf@thomasclausen.org:
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Apologies for not having gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few =
spare cycles.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously offered reviews and comments, and some of =
those have been addressed in the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, =
but should be. I recall that there was some mail attempting to rebut =
parts of the review, and I will dig it out and reply to that.
>=20

That wold be great.

> With that being said, I have reviewed the latest version of the =
document, and full details will be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a =
couple of big-ticket/architectural items that I want to address up =
front, as I believe that before we have those hammered out, it will be =
useless to go into details. Note, I do not claim that this is an =
exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s =
as far as I have gotten in thinking this through.
>=20
> I also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor discussed.
>=20
> Loops
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting =
and concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no =
loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where =
loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some =
loop conditions=E2=80=9D
>=20
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but =
apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
>=20
>=20
> Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.=20
>=20
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops =
above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for =
loops.
>=20
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way =
that can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=
=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), =
etc.
>=20
>=20
> Forwarding-vs-regeneration
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new =
message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and =
transmitted.

That=E2=80=99s what we=E2=80=99ve been trying to say all along! I=E2=80=99=
m really glad we=E2=80=99re having this conversation.

>=20
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the =
list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced =
that this is not the right way to go, at least for the following =
reasons:
>=20
>=20
> 	o	It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 =
message header useless.
> 		This would not be bad if the functionality offered by =
those fields was not useful
> 		=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope limited =
flooding (expanding ring search, and=20
> 		such) which may be of interest, and which require =
hop-limit.=20
> 		A hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D=
 (in terms of overhead) additional piece
> 		of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=
=80=9D metric.
>=20

I agree on the usefulness, which is why we were puzzled when we were =
told we weren=E2=80=99t allowed to use those fields (or, rather, that we =
were using them wrong, but that the right way to use them doesn=E2=80=99t =
work for AODvv2). I believe Vicky has written about this in more detail =
in previous discussions, and we were/are looking forward to reading your =
answers...

> 		The only practical solution would be to re-introduce =
these functions by way of inserting a
> 		MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this =
document, and (ii) which would just
> 		serve to render messages bigger than strictly needed.

Exactly; we=E2=80=99d really like to avoid this as well.

>=20
> 		Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a necessary =
requirement, if for no
> 		other reason than to prevent information from =
=E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the network=E2=80=9D.

AODVv2=E2=80=99s duplicated detection hopefully should take care of =
that. Iirc, We interpreted your earlier E-Mails to (implicitly) mean =
that you think we should rely on that, since you said we can=E2=80=99t =
use the hop-limit/hop-count fields.

>=20
> 	o	It makes end-to-end authentication unnecessarily hard.
> 		I think Chris called this out already, but it bears =
repeating: S generates a message=20
> 		(say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated over the =
content of the message.
> 		For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the =
message has to be exactly
> 		the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in structure =
=E2=80=94 as what was generated.
>=20
> 		=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =
=E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D messages means, that the intermediate
> 		router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose =
a different structure (e.g., include TLVs
> 		in a different order).
>=20
> 		The proposal from =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>
> 		is to add constraints on (i) the set of elements to =
include in a signature and (ii) the
> 		order of these elements.
>=20
> 		One problem with that approach is (i): if an extension =
adds a message TLV, or an=20
> 		Address TLV, to a message, then that will not be =
=E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed e2esec TLV.
> 		Rather for *each* extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates=
 e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to be done.
>=20
> 		I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to =
errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process
> 		of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a =
message being generated by the
> 		source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, for example) =
would allow ICV TLVs=20
> 		(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for =
covering a message and=20
> 		extensions.
>=20
> 		=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will =
change on each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?
> 		Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply =
zero out the value of that TLV when
> 		generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use =
Packet-TLVs for hop-by-hop=20
> 		authentication, if needed (but, see below).
>=20
> 	o	It prevents the use of more clever/advanced signature =
schemes/ICVs
> 		Aggregate signature algorithms ( =
https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf =
<https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf>)
> 		exist, and an interesting use-case can be found in also =
reactive protocols, allowing verifying
> 		not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but also the =
intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D
> 		discussed above, or something smarter).
> 		Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, =
renders that impossible (or, if used,
> 		updating to  =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00>)
>=20
> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as =
immediate show-stoppers.
>=20
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.

The possible benefit is that we need to accumulate & transport metric =
values somehow, and we can=E2=80=99t do that without regenerating at =
least parts of the message.
If we=E2=80=99re missing a solution here, please share it with us.

>=20
> Security Considerations

Just for context=E2=80=99s sake, did you review the security =
considerations in draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 or the ones proposed in the =
thread =E2=80=9EAODVv2: Security considerations update=E2=80=9C?

> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the =
process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security =
from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing =
RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183=
  equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an =
independent document. currently, that is not the case.
>=20
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration =
from RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that =
went through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory =
to implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implementations.
>=20
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
>=20
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
>=20
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead =
to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for =
processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That =
gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=
=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.
>=20
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly =
into the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and =
slow down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
>=20
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, =
Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
>=20
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and =
*not* regenerated), this could be one option:
>=20
> 		o	When a RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an =
ICV Message TLV, which is calculated <this way>
> 			 =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)
>=20
> 		o	When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted  (by =
the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)
> 			in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added =
to the packet, which is calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6
>=20
> 		o	When an RFC5444 packet is received, validate the =
ICV Packet TLV <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,
> 			discard the contained messages.
>=20
> 		o	When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as =
destination, or as an intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV=20
> 			<this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t =
validate, discard the message, do not process, do not forward.
>=20
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D=
 transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed =
previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit =
described previously.
>=20
> Metrics
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I =
am escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative =
reference to RFC6551?
>=20
>    [RFC6551 <>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, =
N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path =
Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March =
2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551 =
<http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>>.
>=20
>=20
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to =
RFC6551 explicitly reads:
>=20
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require =
the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints. =20
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are not applicable =
in ad hoc networks =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since =
the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
>=20
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same =
metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
>=20
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
>=20
> RFC6621 (SMF) usage
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the =
mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding =
reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this =
protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.=20
>=20
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons =
Chris point out in an email earlier to the list:
>> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast =
suppression to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep =
having to be said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and =
those only travel one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression. =
Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 =
specific handling.
>=20
>=20
> And quoting an email from myself:
>> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly =
is protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, =
at least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree =
of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different =
relay set selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected =
flooding domain).
>=20
> In other words, what the authors propose in =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00> is =
insufficient.
>=20
> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work  if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all =
4 interfaces use the same IP address?)
>=20
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One =
of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it =
detects bidirectionality of links.=20
>=20
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this =
protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting =
to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the =
interface configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces =
must be worked out.
>=20
> Prefixes & Gateways
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that =
from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /<128 in IPv6)?
>=20
> 	o	If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set =
of a single router,=20
> 		then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the =
case?
>=20
> 	o	If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network =
set of a single router,=20
> 		and the other half is part of the attached network set =
of another  single router,=20
> 		then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
>=20
> 	o	More generally, will I get a tree build through the =
network here?

AODVv2 currently doesn=E2=80=99t support RREQs for prefixes. I=E2=80=99ve =
already added =E2=80=9EIf RteMsg is a RREQ, RteMsg.TargPrefixLen SHOULD =
equal address length.=E2=80=9C to RteMsg.TargPrefixLen in section 4.6 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-4.6>. =
Multicast Route Message Table in response to Justin=E2=80=99s comments, =
but I=E2=80=99ll go through the draft again and see where we need to =
state this more clearly.

Best regards,
Lotte Steenbrink

>=20
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about =
multiple  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =
=E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple =
gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, =
and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is =
not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D=
).
>=20
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being =
far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it =
would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=20
>=20
> Is this a supported configuration?=20
> 	o	If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some =
complications) handled?=20
> 	o	If not, where is it stated that this configuration is =
not possible with this protocol?
>=20
>=20
> The applicability statement says:
>=20
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions =
when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
>=20
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and =
not a transit network)?
>=20
> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
>=20
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten =
around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through =
working through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, =
and which seem imperative to resolve.
>=20
> Best,
>=20
> Thomas
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Thomas,<div class=3D"">thank you for reviewing AODVv2 yet =
again :) Some answers below:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
17.03.2016 um 17:00 schrieb <a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" =
class=3D"">ietf@thomasclausen.org</a>:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Dear all,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Apologies for not having =
gotten this done sooner - day-job leaving few spare cycles.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously =
offered reviews and comments, and some of those have been addressed in =
the latest I-D =E2=80=94 others have not, but should be. I recall that =
there was some mail attempting to rebut parts of the review, and I will =
dig it out and reply to that.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That wold be great.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">With that being said, I =
have reviewed the latest version of the document, and full details will =
be forthcoming. There=E2=80=99re a couple of big-ticket/architectural =
items that I want to address up front, as I believe that before we have =
those hammered out, it will be useless to go into details. Note, I do =
not claim that this is an exhaustive list of =E2=80=9Cbig ticket =
items=E2=80=9D, but that=E2=80=99s as far as I have gotten in thinking =
this through.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
also bring these up as they are items that have been brought up =
repeatedly over the past years, but not resolved nor =
discussed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Loops</u></b></div><div class=3D"">Just to =
bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting and =
concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops =
possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where loops =
can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cwe are still investigating some loop =
conditions=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in =
public, but apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Intermediate =
Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b></div><div class=3D"">Section =
10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=9D, =
which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this =
document.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about =
loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source =
for loops.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in =
a way that can be implemented (and also, see =
=E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the present =
form of this protocol impossible), etc.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Forwarding-vs-regeneration</b></u></div><div =
class=3D"">Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol =
control messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then =
a new message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated =
and transmitted.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That=E2=80=99s what we=E2=80=99ve been trying to =
say all along! I=E2=80=99m really glad we=E2=80=99re having this =
conversation.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have =
thought some more on this (&amp; read some of the exchanges on the list =
on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced that =
this is not the right way to go,&nbsp;<b class=3D"">at =
least</b>&nbsp;for the following reasons:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D"">It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the =
RFC5444 message header useless.</b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>This would not be bad if the functionality offered by those =
fields was not useful</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. =
For example, for scope limited flooding (expanding ring search, =
and&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>such) which may be of =
interest, and which require hop-limit.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>A =
hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of =
overhead) additional piece</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D =
metric.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=
 agree on the usefulness, which is why we were puzzled when we were told =
we weren=E2=80=99t allowed to use those fields (or, rather, that we were =
using them wrong, but that the right way to use them doesn=E2=80=99t =
work for AODvv2). I believe Vicky has written about this in more detail =
in previous discussions, and we were/are looking forward to reading your =
answers...</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>The only practical solution would be to re-introduce these =
functions by way of inserting a</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this document, =
and (ii) which would just</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>serve to render messages bigger than strictly =
needed.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Exactly; we=E2=80=99d really like to avoid this as =
well.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Scope limited flooding &nbsp;does seem to be a necessary =
requirement, if for no</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>other reason than to =
prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating forever in the =
network=E2=80=9D.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>AODVv2=E2=80=99s duplicated detection hopefully =
should take care of that. Iirc, We interpreted your earlier E-Mails to =
(implicitly) mean that you think we should rely on that, since you said =
we can=E2=80=99t use the hop-limit/hop-count fields.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">It =
makes end-to-end authentication unnecessarily hard.</u></b></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>I think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S =
generates a message&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>(say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated over the content of =
the message.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>For any recipient to be =
able to validate the ICV, the message has to be exactly</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 =
as what was generated.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=
=9D messages means, that the intermediate</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose a =
different structure (e.g., include TLVs</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>in a different order).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>The proposal from&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>is to add constraints on =
(i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>order of these elements.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>One&nbsp;problem with =
that approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV, or =
an&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>Address TLV, to a =
message, then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by the proposed =
e2esec TLV.</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>Rather for *each* =
extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=9D clause needs to =
be done.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94=
 and add entropy to the process</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a message =
being generated by the</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>source and *forwarded* =
(as we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV TLVs&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for covering a =
message and&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>extensions.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will change on =
each hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply zero out =
the value of that TLV when</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs =
for hop-by-hop&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>authentication, if needed =
(but, see below).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">It prevents the use of more =
clever/advanced signature schemes/ICVs</u></b></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Aggregate signature algorithms (&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf" =
class=3D"">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf</a>)</di=
v><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>exist, and an interesting =
use-case can be found in also reactive protocols, allowing =
verifying</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D =
the end points, but also the intermediaries (again, with the appropriate =
=E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>discussed above, or something smarter).</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, renders that =
impossible (or, if used,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>updating to &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00<=
/a>)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are =
other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as immediate =
show-stoppers.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=
 do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear =
inconveniences, and security is not the least of these. Insisting on =
=E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development of =E2=80=9Cnon-genera=
l workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out =
above.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The =
possible benefit is that we need to accumulate &amp; transport metric =
values somehow, and we can=E2=80=99t do that without regenerating at =
least parts of the message.</div><div>If we=E2=80=99re missing a =
solution here, please share it with us.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</u></b></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Just for context=E2=80=99s sake, did you review =
the security considerations in&nbsp;draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 or the =
ones proposed in the thread =E2=80=9EAODVv2: Security considerations =
update=E2=80=9C?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 =
was going through the process we got a thorough education in how little =
we knew about security from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year =
or so developing RFC7183. The bottom line is, that this protocol needs =
its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 &nbsp;equivalent=E2=80=9D, either as part of the =
main document, or as an independent document. currently, that is not the =
case.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A =
minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration from =
RFC7183 might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that went =
through the SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to =
implement=E2=80=9D security mechanism most be specified (I think the =
right term was =E2=80=9CMUST implement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in =
sufficient detail to ensure interoperable =
implementations.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As an =
example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if =
the</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; message is invalid for =
processing by this router</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, =
will lead to a rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore =
invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then =
amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =
=E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If I was to do =
RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly into the protocol =
specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and slow down =
publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Secondly, we need to be =
a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs, Timestamps, etc. are =
added/removed, and what that brings.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For example (with the assumption that =
messages are *forwarded* and *not* regenerated), this could be one =
option:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>When a RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, =
which is calculated &lt;this way&gt;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>&nbsp;=E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted &nbsp;(by the source, or =
forwarded by an intermediary)</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, =
which is calculated &lt;this way&gt; =E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When an =
RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; =
and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>discard the contained messages.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>When =
receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermediary), =
validate the ICV Message TLV&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">			=
</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard =
the message, do not process, do not forward.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is a different (and more =
flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =
=E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed previously, and is =
enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described =
previously.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Metrics</u></b></div><div class=3D"">I have =
asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to RFC6551?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre=
 class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC6551" id=3D"ref-RFC6551" class=3D"">RFC6551</a>]  =
Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,
              and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path Calculation
              in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" class=3D"">RFC 6551</a>, =
DOI 10.17487/
              <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" =
class=3D"">RFC6551</a>, March 2012,
              &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" =
class=3D"">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</a>&gt;.</pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Unless I am mistaken, this is not the =
ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; white-space: pre-wrap;" class=3D"">   Low-Power and Lossy =
Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints.  </pre><div =
class=3D"">Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are<u =
class=3D""><b class=3D""> not applicable in ad hoc networks</b></u> =E2=80=
=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since the publication of =
RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;I am also wondering if looking at =
(and, perhaps, using?) the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not =
a possibility?</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">RFC6621 (SMF) usage</u></b></div><div class=3D"">As late as =
earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing list. I =
understand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction as part =
of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol MUST =
specify that flooding reduction.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D =
won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email earlier to =
the list:</div><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The =
network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to =
AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep&nbsp;having to be =
said. AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel =
one hop. That doesn't allow for suppression.&nbsp;Furthermore AODVv2 is =
creating new messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific =
handling.</blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">And quoting an email from myself:</div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">If protocol X relies on =
using a flooding operation, then it certainly is protocol X's =
responsibility to &nbsp;specify the flooding operation (or, at =
least,&nbsp;the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct =
functioning of protocol X.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out =
that RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, =
for example, pick two different relay set selection algorithms, as that =
may produce a disconnected flooding domain).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In other words, what the authors =
propose in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-0=
0</a>&nbsp;is insufficient.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Multiple interfaces configured =
with the same address(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b></div><div class=3D"">I =
think that it has been established that the ability to use the same =
address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =
=E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will =
it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and =
that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is not entirely unrelated to =
flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that =
just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flooding-MPRs per =
interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirectionality of =
links.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =
=E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able =
to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface =
configuration constraints when faced with multiple interfaces must be =
worked out.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><u class=3D"">Prefixes &amp; Gateways</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer =
that from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at =
least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D =
(i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a =
single router,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>then I expect to get a =
single RREP back, is that the case?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If "half the prefix" &nbsp;is =
part of the attached network set of a single router,&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>and the other half is part of the attached network set of another =
&nbsp;single router,&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>More generally, will I get a tree =
build through the network here?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>AODVv2 currently doesn=E2=80=99t support RREQs for =
prefixes. I=E2=80=99ve already added =E2=80=9E<font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">If RteMsg is a RREQ, RteMsg.TargPrefixLen SHOULD equal =
address length.</font>=E2=80=9C to RteMsg.TargPrefixLen in =
section&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-4.6" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-4.6=
" style=3D"font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; color: black; =
text-decoration: none;">4.6</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  Multicast Route Message =
Table</span>&nbsp;in response to Justin=E2=80=99s comments, but I=E2=80=99=
ll go through the draft again and see where we need to state this more =
clearly.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Best =
regards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough =
about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external =
network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there =
being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets =
to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it should respond (the =
destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is =
configured=E2=80=9D).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B =
being far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, =
then it would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via =
GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is this a supported =
configuration?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I =
would expect some complications) handled?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>o<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>If not, =
where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this =
protocol?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The applicability statement =
says:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   AODVv2 is designed =
for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" =
class=3D"">Section 9</a>.
</pre></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not a =
transit network)?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I indicated, these are the =
big-picture issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to =
write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but =
those were the ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to =
resolve.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thomas</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">manet mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" class=3D"">manet@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_EB9E7E54-84A5-455C-994B-EA8FBAB1E34E--


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To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
References: <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384CF5A@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56EC539D.6010203@labn.net> <CALtoyokEDWDKAfsWwjGMYApydua_=8aPF5f84_8GQxn7dE0m5A@mail.gmail.com> <56EC56FE.2050009@labn.net> <CALtoyoneW0xz4keHCrZ614HyRt-WnKn59kr7vPO4Fk2gNQpG9Q@mail.gmail.com> <56EC5E43.3000803@labn.net> <CALtoyo=SznQSJAcKkjMcaQwZ_Bw9ifkv6-PAp3AS27D_ie6-CA@mail.gmail.com> <56EC630C.1020604@labn.net> <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 08:36:42 -0400
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Cc: manet IETF <manet@ietf.org>, draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02 (was DLEP last call)
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Stan,

On second thought:

On 3/18/2016 4:25 PM, Stan Ratliff wrote:
>
> ...-  would adding some text along the lines of "Credit counts MUST
> include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding included at the
> MAC layer." allay your concern???
> ...

This works for me. 

Lou




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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, "James A. (Jim) Stevens" <james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
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To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, "James A. (Jim) Stevens" <james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com>
References: <CAH8Jh6CDprKt4ZjNMtQgLO2dUcaNZhxry0g6HACGkDcUgziaxw@mail.gmail.com> <CALtoyokvZjjbV4rCfWiD=YvhG4AnPM1V2cuQidX1FNDoP+ZHTQ@mail.gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384E162@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com>
From: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
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Rick,
    Take a look at the bandwidth impact of headers on small frames and
you'll see it's pretty significant.  If credits relate to OTA bandwidth,
IMO headers have to be included.  I don't have any strong
opinions/preferences on how this should be done for DLEP.  If credit
window does *not* relate to OTA bandwidth, then I personally think the
extension is overkill and I'd go for a PAUSE/PFC based approach.

Lou

PS we had the basically same drawn out "discussion" when defining
intserv and eventually agreed that headers have to taken into account as
part of bandwidth calculations.

On 3/19/2016 8:51 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>
> I’m mostly on the side-lines for credit-windowing, but Jim’s choice 2
> is what I have always assumed.
>
>  
>
> Given that the Layer-2 header size is known already by the router and
> modem, due to the single layer-2 requirement of DLEP, I don’t think it
> should be included in **any** metrics concerning ‘amounts of data’,
> e.g. Credit-windowing, CDR or MTU.  Even if the modem does clever
> compression/aggregation of headers (from any layer), that bit only
> runs between modems, and the DLEP data items are associated with
> Destinations, and the destination is not the remote modem, hence the
> ‘flow’ is:
>
>  
>
> BB MAC + IP Header + IP Payload<-local-> OTA Mac/Magic + Payload
> <-air-> OTA Mac/Magic + Payload <-local-> BB MAC + IP Header + IP Payload.
>
>  
>
> sizeof(BB Mac) is well-known by all DLEP participants, and sizeof(OTA
> MAC/Magic) is private to the modem implementation, hence credits
> should refer to sizeof(IP Header + IP Payload).
>
>  
>
> When comparing this to dlep-draft-20, the core spec makes no mention
> of layer-2 headers in the CDR/MDR data items (which also talk about
> ‘amounts of data’ – perhaps this needs clarifying), and explicitly
> excludes layer-2 headers in the MTU data item (as that is what is
> generally understood by MTU).
>
>  
>
> Cheers,
>
>  
>
> Rick
>
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> *From:*manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Stan Ratliff
> *Sent:* 19 March 2016 02:35
> *To:* James A. (Jim) Stevens
> *Cc:* MANET IETF
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
>
>  
>
> Jim, 
>
>  
>
> Thanks for that info. I'll be crafting text this weekend. 
>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>
>  
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 5:50 PM, James A. (Jim) Stevens
> <james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com
> <mailto:james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com>> wrote:
>
> >Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400
> >From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com <mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com>>
> >Message-ID:
>        
> <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx%2B%2Bi_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com>>
> >
> >Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's
> rear'...
> >however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the
> lines of
> >"Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any padding
> >included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???
> >
> >Regards,
> >Stan
>
> Because some radio networks have their own over-the-air (OTA) MAC and
> MAC addressing between Modem devices (radios) different than they use
> for the baseband (BB) MAC between the Modem device and Router (this is
> like the logical tunneling between Modem devices mentioned in section
> 2 of DLEP-20), I want to reiterate that we are talking about the BB
> MAC and not the OTA MAC.
>
>  
>
> Router <==========> Modem <===========> Modem <===========> Router
>
>            BB                  OTA                 BB
>
>  
>
> I work with a variety of different non-commercial MANET waveforms that
> have different ways of sending the BB data OTA.  Most use IEEE 802.3
> Ethernet or PPP as the BB MAC between the Router and Modem.
>
>  
>
> Many send the entire BB MAC header + IP header + IP payload
> encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.
>
>  
>
>  Router <==========> Modem <===========> Modem <===========> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>                              | OTA MAC|
>
>                              +--------+
>
>  
>
> Others compress the BB MAC header and only send the IP header + IP
> payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload
>
>  
>
>  Router <==========> Modem <===========> Modem <===========> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          |compress|          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>                              | OTA MAC|
>
>                              +--------+
>
>  
>
> Others compress both the BB MAC and IP headers before sending the
> compressed header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.
>
>  
>
>  Router <==========> Modem <===========> Modem <===========> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          |compress|          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          | OTA MAC|          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>  
>
> And the size of the compression can vary depending upon the prior and
> current state of the headers and compression.
>
>  
>
> So of the choices
>
>  
>
> (1) include IP payload, IP header, and BB MAC in credit window
>
>  
>
> (2) include only the IP payload and IP header in the credit window
>
>  
>
> (3) include only the IP payload in the credit window
>
>  
>
> I RECOMMEND choice (1)because if the Modem does compression, then
> sometimes the Router is paced even when it might have had space to
> send a little bit more traffic.
>
>  
>
> But that is better than choices (2) or (3) because either
>
> (a) cases arise where the headers have to be sent uncompressed and
> hence the Router might think it has space to send more data when it
> really didn’t, or
>
> (b) the Modem always reserved extra space for uncompressed headers –
> but because it doesn’t know if they are long or short IP packets, it
> has to include a lot of excessive padding and hence could flow control
> the Router when it doesn’t need to
>
>  
>
> -- 
>
> James A. (Jim) Stevens, PhD
>
> Network Architect / Technical Fellow
>
> Rockwell Collins Government Systems
>
>  
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



From nobody Sat Mar 19 06:51:36 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, "James A. (Jim) Stevens" <james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
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References: <CAH8Jh6CDprKt4ZjNMtQgLO2dUcaNZhxry0g6HACGkDcUgziaxw@mail.gmail.com> <CALtoyokvZjjbV4rCfWiD=YvhG4AnPM1V2cuQidX1FNDoP+ZHTQ@mail.gmail.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C384E162@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <56ED523D.8040901@labn.net>
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Cc: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
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Lou,

As mentioned before, credit windowing is not my document, and I may have mi=
sunderstood some of the fine details, but:

I believe credits do not directly map to OTA bandwidth (where I agree heade=
rs have a massive impact with small frames), and hence sub-IP headers shoul=
d not be counted.

Yes, avoiding overloading of the OTA bandwidth is the purpose, but credit-w=
indowing attempts to solve that problem by throttling at the LAN interface =
to the modem rather than the RF interface, and therefore flow control shoul=
d be done with metrics that make sense on the LAN side.  Yes, any smart mod=
em is going to have to do some on-the-fly calculation of credit windows giv=
en a clever OTA compression scheme, but that's the modem's business.  In my=
 opinion, DLEP cannot make assumptions about what happens between modems - =
that way madness lies...

I agree, PAUSE/PFC is a viable alternative to what is being proposed in thi=
s draft, and hence I'm watching the new proposed DLEP extensions covering i=
t with interest, but that doesn't invalidate this approach.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net]=20
Sent: 19 March 2016 13:21
To: Rick Taylor; Stan Ratliff; James A. (Jim) Stevens
Cc: MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02

Rick,
    Take a look at the bandwidth impact of headers on small frames and you'=
ll see it's pretty significant.  If credits relate to OTA bandwidth, IMO he=
aders have to be included.  I don't have any strong opinions/preferences on=
 how this should be done for DLEP.  If credit window does *not* relate to O=
TA bandwidth, then I personally think the extension is overkill and I'd go =
for a PAUSE/PFC based approach.

Lou

PS we had the basically same drawn out "discussion" when defining intserv a=
nd eventually agreed that headers have to taken into account as part of ban=
dwidth calculations.

On 3/19/2016 8:51 AM, Rick Taylor wrote:
>
> I'm mostly on the side-lines for credit-windowing, but Jim's choice 2=20
> is what I have always assumed.
>
> =20
>
> Given that the Layer-2 header size is known already by the router and=20
> modem, due to the single layer-2 requirement of DLEP, I don't think it=20
> should be included in **any** metrics concerning 'amounts of data',=20
> e.g. Credit-windowing, CDR or MTU.  Even if the modem does clever=20
> compression/aggregation of headers (from any layer), that bit only=20
> runs between modems, and the DLEP data items are associated with=20
> Destinations, and the destination is not the remote modem, hence the=20
> 'flow' is:
>
> =20
>
> BB MAC + IP Header + IP Payload<-local-> OTA Mac/Magic + Payload=20
> <-air-> OTA Mac/Magic + Payload <-local-> BB MAC + IP Header + IP Payload=
.
>
> =20
>
> sizeof(BB Mac) is well-known by all DLEP participants, and sizeof(OTA
> MAC/Magic) is private to the modem implementation, hence credits=20
> should refer to sizeof(IP Header + IP Payload).
>
> =20
>
> When comparing this to dlep-draft-20, the core spec makes no mention=20
> of layer-2 headers in the CDR/MDR data items (which also talk about=20
> 'amounts of data' - perhaps this needs clarifying), and explicitly=20
> excludes layer-2 headers in the MTU data item (as that is what is=20
> generally understood by MTU).
>
> =20
>
> Cheers,
>
> =20
>
> Rick
>
> =20
>
> =20
>
> =20
>
> *From:*manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Stan=20
> Ratliff
> *Sent:* 19 March 2016 02:35
> *To:* James A. (Jim) Stevens
> *Cc:* MANET IETF
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] Question on draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02
>
> =20
>
> Jim,
>
> =20
>
> Thanks for that info. I'll be crafting text this weekend.=20
>
> =20
>
> Regards,
>
> Stan
>
> =20
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 5:50 PM, James A. (Jim) Stevens=20
> <james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com
> <mailto:james.a.stevens@rockwellcollins.com>> wrote:
>
> >Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:25:32 -0400
> >From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com=20
> ><mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com>>
> >Message-ID:
>       =20
> <CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx++i_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:CALtoyok6eh0dXQzxWCx%2B%2Bi_K4k0dtenthXheuLEQFYcVdrmdhg@mail.g
> mail.com>>
> >
> >Seems like something that is a statistical 'fly on the elephant's
> rear'...
> >however, to reach a conclusion -  would adding some text along the
> lines of
> >"Credit counts MUST include the payload, the MAC header, and any=20
> >padding included at the MAC layer." allay your concern???
> >
> >Regards,
> >Stan
>
> Because some radio networks have their own over-the-air (OTA) MAC and=20
> MAC addressing between Modem devices (radios) different than they use=20
> for the baseband (BB) MAC between the Modem device and Router (this is=20
> like the logical tunneling between Modem devices mentioned in section
> 2 of DLEP-20), I want to reiterate that we are talking about the BB=20
> MAC and not the OTA MAC.
>
> =20
>
> Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>            BB                  OTA                 BB
>
> =20
>
> I work with a variety of different non-commercial MANET waveforms that=20
> have different ways of sending the BB data OTA.  Most use IEEE 802.3=20
> Ethernet or PPP as the BB MAC between the Router and Modem.
>
> =20
>
> Many send the entire BB MAC header + IP header + IP payload=20
> encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.
>
> =20
>
>  Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>                              | OTA MAC|
>
>                              +--------+
>
> =20
>
> Others compress the BB MAC header and only send the IP header + IP=20
> payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload
>
> =20
>
>  Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          |compress|          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>                              | OTA MAC|
>
>                              +--------+
>
> =20
>
> Others compress both the BB MAC and IP headers before sending the=20
> compressed header + IP payload encapsulated in the OTA MAC payload.
>
> =20
>
>  Router <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D> Modem <=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> Router
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          |IP payld|          |IP payld|          |IP payld|
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | IP Hdr |          |compress|          | IP Hdr |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
>          | BB MAC |          | OTA MAC|          | BB MAC |
>
>          +--------+          +--------+          +--------+
>
> =20
>
> And the size of the compression can vary depending upon the prior and=20
> current state of the headers and compression.
>
> =20
>
> So of the choices
>
> =20
>
> (1) include IP payload, IP header, and BB MAC in credit window
>
> =20
>
> (2) include only the IP payload and IP header in the credit window
>
> =20
>
> (3) include only the IP payload in the credit window
>
> =20
>
> I RECOMMEND choice (1)because if the Modem does compression, then=20
> sometimes the Router is paced even when it might have had space to=20
> send a little bit more traffic.
>
> =20
>
> But that is better than choices (2) or (3) because either
>
> (a) cases arise where the headers have to be sent uncompressed and=20
> hence the Router might think it has space to send more data when it=20
> really didn't, or
>
> (b) the Modem always reserved extra space for uncompressed headers -=20
> but because it doesn't know if they are long or short IP packets, it=20
> has to include a lot of excessive padding and hence could flow control=20
> the Router when it doesn't need to
>
> =20
>
> --
>
> James A. (Jim) Stevens, PhD
>
> Network Architect / Technical Fellow
>
> Rockwell Collins Government Systems
>
> =20
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=20
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> =20
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet



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Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 15:47:11 +0200
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
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Cc: Charles Perkins <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>, Christopher Dearlove <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
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Hi All,

I did not read on the list that AODVv2 has problems in loops (IMO: no
participant reported this), it may happen outside the IETF because some
people may not understand AODV and we can advise them. I don't know why
participants are discussing a loop-problem that was not reported in details
in IETF.

Sorry that I don't understand the discussion of a problem that was not
defined, please help (I hope the participant that has the loop-problem to
respond because I still don't know who was the implementor)

AB

AB

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM, <ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:

>
> On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:40, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
>
> There is a problem when you have information that isn=E2=80=99t public. T=
hough if
> it=E2=80=99s sent to you wearing IETF hat, is it covered by Note Well?
>
>
> This is actually an interesting point. As one of the WG chairs is also an
> author, I would assume that he=E2=80=99d have been a recipient of this in=
formation,
> and that therefore very much should be covered by Note Well?
>
> But let=E2=80=99s suppose you=E2=80=99ve decided you can=E2=80=99t give d=
etails. You probably can
> still say =E2=80=9CSomeone has raised an issue with us, we=E2=80=99re try=
ing to get it
> handled.=E2=80=9D. What you (one) can definitely do is bear that in mind =
and not
> makes statements that will later appear to be at odds with what you then
> knew.
>
> I=E2=80=99m still not clear as to whether there was a late discovered rea=
l problem
> that needed fixing.
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m with you on that one, coming down on the =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6ne=
ed to be convinced=E2=80=9D side
> of the fence, however.
>
> Thomas
>
>
> *--*
>
>
>
>
> *Christopher DearloveSenior Principal EngineerBAE Systems Applied
> Intelligence Laboratories*
>
> *________________________________________________________________________=
__*
> *T*:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>
> *From:* Lotte Steenbrink [mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de
> <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>]
> *Sent:* 17 March 2016 16:19
> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> *Cc:* Charlie Perkins; manet
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments
>
>
> **** WARNING ****
>
> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an
> external partner or the internet.*
>
> *Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any
> attachments or reply.For information regarding **Red Flags** that you can
> look out for in emails you receive, click here
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> *If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process
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ts/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf>.*
> Hello Christopher,
>
>
> Am 16.03.2016 um 18:22 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>:
>
> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to find time - but that=E2=
=80=99s true of
> too many things, with DLEP ahead of AODVv2 on this list).
>
> But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing algorithm,
> being discussed by the authors off-list,
>
>
> If we could=E2=80=99ve, I would=E2=80=99ve loved to share this with the l=
ist immediately.
> I=E2=80=99m not sure if there=E2=80=99s a procedure for this kind of situ=
ation we should=E2=80=99ve
> followed? If there is, I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to learn from it an=
d do
> better next time.
>
>
> while in parallel assuring the list that =E2=80=9COther discussion about =
routing
> loops has not identified routing loop problems in the existing
> specification.=E2=80=9D (see email chain below).
>
>
> I think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s wanting to advance to =
Proposed
> Standard soon, in terms of process and confidence.
>
>
> I think I understand where your worries come from. However, I do think ou=
r
> efforts to improve our communication are visible, and apart from the
> communication delay, the fact that this research exists actually improves
> my confidence in the document: It found loops that were (imho) pretty
> tricky to come up with by thinking hard about the problem alone, and we=
=E2=80=99ve
> been able to fix them, making AODVv2 more solid.
>
>
>
> (I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even write up comments on the perhaps=
 one
> third of the draft I have read through yet.)
>
> Personally, I=E2=80=99d be happy to go through them in chunks as well :) =
Maybe
> that could also speed up the back and forth of =E2=80=9Ex isn=E2=80=99t q=
uite right=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Ewould
> y resolve the issue?=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Eyes/no=E2=80=9C, which would in tu=
rn speed up the progress
> of this document? Anyhow, all feedback is very welcome.
>
> Best regards,
> Lotte Steenbrink
>
>
>
>
>
> *--*
>
>
>
>
> *Christopher DearloveSenior Principal EngineerBAE Systems Applied
> Intelligence Laboratories*
>
> *________________________________________________________________________=
__*
> *T*:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>
>
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--001a113773608a9785052e7b37e2
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Hi All,<br><br></div>I did not read on the list =
that AODVv2 has problems in loops (IMO: no participant reported this), it m=
ay happen outside the IETF because some people may not understand AODV and =
we can advise them. I don&#39;t know why participants are discussing a loop=
-problem that was not reported in details in IETF. <br><br>Sorry that I don=
&#39;t understand the discussion of a problem that was not defined, please =
help (I hope the participant that has the loop-problem to respond because I=
 still don&#39;t know who was the implementor)<br><br></div><div>AB<br></di=
v><div><br></div>AB<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 6:45 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclausen.org=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word"><br><div><span class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
On 17 Mar 2016, at 17:40, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-sp=
acing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spa=
ce:normal;word-spacing:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">There is a probl=
em when you have information that isn=E2=80=99t public. Though if it=E2=80=
=99s sent to you wearing IETF hat, is it covered by Note Well?<u></u><u></u=
></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fam=
ily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-fam=
ily:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div></span>This is actually an interesting point. As one=
 of the WG chairs is also an author, I would assume that he=E2=80=99d have =
been a recipient of this information, and that therefore very much should b=
e covered by Note Well?</div><div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"=
><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Time=
s New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,s=
ans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">But let=E2=80=99s suppose you=E2=80=99ve de=
cided you can=E2=80=99t give details. You probably can still say =E2=80=9CS=
omeone has raised an issue with us, we=E2=80=99re trying to get it handled.=
=E2=80=9D. What you (one) can definitely do is bear that in mind and not ma=
kes statements that will later appear to be at odds with what you then knew=
.<u></u><u></u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size=
:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-=
family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I=E2=80=99m still not clear=
 as to whether there was a late discovered real problem that needed fixing.=
</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span>I=E2=80=99m with you =
on that one, coming down on the =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6need to be convinced=E2=
=80=9D side of the fence, however.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><di=
v><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-s=
ize:11pt">=C2=A0</span></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=
=3D"h5"><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;=
font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10=
pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)">--<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12p=
t;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:=
10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,126,126)">Christopher Dearlov=
e<br>Senior Principal Engineer<br>BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laborato=
ries<br></span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-=
serif;color:rgb(190,190,190)">_____________________________________________=
_____________________________<br></span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;fo=
nt-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,126)"><br></span><b><span style=3D=
"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(125,125,125)">T</span=
></b><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(12=
5,125,125)">: =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%291245%20242194" value=3D"+=
441245242194" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0)1245 242194</a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0<b>E:<=
span>=C2=A0</span></b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" styl=
e=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlo=
ve@baesystems.com</a><br></span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Ar=
ial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,126)"><br></span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;=
font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(58,139,146)">BAE Systems Applied Int=
elligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 =
8HN.<br><a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color:purple;text=
-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:rgb(58,139,14=
6)">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p><div style=3D"=
margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(58,139,146)">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>Registered in En=
gland &amp; Wales No: 01337451<u></u><u></u></span></div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New=
 Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(58,139,146)">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford=
, Surrey, GU2 7YP<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0c=
m 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,12=
5)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"border-style:solid =
none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3p=
t 0cm 0cm"><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-fam=
ily:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10pt;font-family:Tahoma,sans-serif" lang=3D"EN-US"><span>=C2=A0</span>L=
otte Steenbrink [<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" style=3D"=
color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">mailto:lotte.stee=
nbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>]<span>=C2=A0</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span>=C2=A0</sp=
an>17 March 2016 16:19<br><b>To:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Dearlove, Christophe=
r (UK)<br><b>Cc:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Charlie Perkins; manet<br><b>Subject=
:</b><span>=C2=A0</span>Re: [manet] AODVv2 responses to recent comments<u><=
/u><u></u></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fo=
nt-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u><=
/u></div><div style=3D"border:1pt solid black;padding:2pt"><div style=3D"ma=
rgin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,=
serif;text-align:center;background-color:white"><span style=3D"font-family:=
Arial,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></div><div><div style=3D"margi=
n:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,ser=
if;text-align:center;background-color:white"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15=
pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,57,114)">*** WARNING ***<u></u=
><u></u></span></b></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif;tex=
t-align:center;background-color:white;background-position:initial initial;b=
ackground-repeat:initial initial" align=3D"center"><em><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,57,114)">This message=
 originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner =
or the internet.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:=
Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,57,114)"><br><em><span style=3D"font-family:A=
rial,sans-serif">Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, =
open any attachments or reply.</span></em><br><em><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Arial,sans-serif">For information regarding<span>=C2=A0</span></span></em=
></span></i><strong><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sa=
ns-serif;color:red">Red Flags</span></i></strong><em><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,57,114)"><span>=C2=A0</=
span>that you can look out for in emails you receive, click<span>=C2=A0</sp=
an><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlig=
hts/Documents/Red%20Flags.pdf" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underl=
ine" target=3D"_blank">here</a>.</span></em><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,57,114)"><br><em><span style=
=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif">If you feel the email is suspicious, plea=
se follow<span>=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/h=
owwework/security/spotlights/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails=
.pdf" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline" target=3D"_blank">th=
is process</a>.</span></em></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(51,57,114)"><u></u><u></u></span></p></di=
v></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fami=
ly:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Hello Christopher,<u></u><u></u></div><=
/div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;=
Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><blockquote styl=
e=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.=
0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Am 16.03=
.2016 um 18:22 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chr=
is.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
" target=3D"_blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:<u></u><u></u></d=
iv></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&=
#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Ro=
man&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I haven=E2=80=99t followed the example (I hope to f=
ind time - but that=E2=80=99s true of too many things, with DLEP ahead of A=
ODVv2 on this list).</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rg=
b(31,73,125)">But we have a loop, a pretty fundamental problem in a routing=
 algorithm, being discussed by the authors off-list,</span><u></u><u></u></=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;fon=
t-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></=
u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;fon=
t-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">If we could=E2=80=99ve, I would=
=E2=80=99ve loved to share this with the list immediately. I=E2=80=99m not =
sure if there=E2=80=99s a procedure for this kind of situation we should=E2=
=80=99ve followed? If there is, I=E2=80=99d be more than happy to learn fro=
m it and do better next time.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"margin=
:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,seri=
f"><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.000=
1pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">whi=
le in parallel assuring the list that =E2=80=9COther discussion about routi=
ng loops has not identified routing loop problems in the existing specifica=
tion.=E2=80=9D (see email chain below).</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Tim=
es New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></d=
iv><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Ro=
man&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-seri=
f;color:rgb(31,73,125)">I think we have a real problem with what=E2=80=99s =
wanting to advance to Proposed Standard soon, in terms of process and confi=
dence.</span><u></u><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">I =
think I understand where your worries come from. However, I do think our ef=
forts to improve our communication are visible, and apart from the communic=
ation delay, the fact that this research exists actually improves my confid=
ence in the document: It found loops that were (imho) pretty tricky to come=
 up with by thinking hard about the problem alone, and we=E2=80=99ve been a=
ble to fix them, making AODVv2 more solid.<u></u><u></u></div></div><div st=
yle=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Ro=
man&#39;,serif"><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31=
,73,125)">(I still haven=E2=80=99t managed to even write up comments on the=
 perhaps one third of the draft I have read through yet.)</span><u></u><u><=
/u></div></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:1=
2pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div>=
</div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family=
:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Personally, I=E2=80=99d be happy to go th=
rough them in chunks as well :) Maybe that could also speed up the back and=
 forth of =E2=80=9Ex isn=E2=80=99t quite right=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Ewould y re=
solve the issue?=E2=80=9C =E2=80=9Eyes/no=E2=80=9C, which would in turn spe=
ed up the progress of this document? Anyhow, all feedback is very welcome.<=
u></u><u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-fa=
mily:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></div></di=
v><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#3=
9;Times New Roman&#39;,serif">Lotte Steenbrink<u></u><u></u></div></div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Tim=
es New Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div style=3D"marg=
in:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,se=
rif"><br><br><u></u><u></u></div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;,s=
erif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:r=
gb(0,126,126)">--</span></b><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39=
;,serif"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;colo=
r:rgb(0,126,126)">Christopher Dearlove<br>Senior Principal Engineer<br>BAE =
Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br></span></b><b><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(190,190,190)">________=
__________________________________________________________________<br></spa=
n></b><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(0=
,0,126)"><br></span><b><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-=
serif;color:rgb(125,125,125)">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font=
-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(125,125,125)">: =C2=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B=
44%20%280%291245%20242194" value=3D"+441245242194" target=3D"_blank">+44 (0=
)1245 242194</a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0<b>E:<span>=C2=A0</span></b><a href=3D"mailt=
o:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:unde=
rline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:purple">chris.dearlove@baesys=
tems.com</span></a><br></span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Aria=
l,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,126)"><br></span><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;fo=
nt-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(58,139,146)">BAE Systems Applied Intel=
ligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8H=
N.<br><a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" style=3D"color:purple;text-d=
ecoration:underline" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"color:rgb(58,139,146)=
">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div style=
=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New Roman=
&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;colo=
r:rgb(58,139,146)">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited<br>Registered i=
n England &amp; Wales No: 01337451</span><u></u><u></u></div></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 12pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39=
;Times New Roman&#39;,serif"><span style=3D"font-size:8pt;font-family:Arial=
,sans-serif;color:rgb(58,139,146)">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park,=
 Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:12pt;font-family:&#39;Times New =
Roman&#39;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><p style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:n=
ormal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform=
:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">********************************=
************************************<br>This email and any attachments are =
confidential to the intended<br>recipient and may also be privileged. If yo=
u are not the intended<br>recipient please delete it from your system and n=
otify the sender.<br>You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor d=
isclose or<br>distribute its contents to any other person.<br>*************=
*******************************************************</p></div></div><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:non=
e;display:inline!important">_______________________________________________=
</span><span class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;f=
ont-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-=
style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
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<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a hre=
f=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" style=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline=
;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
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manet@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" style=
=3D"color:purple;text-decoration:underline;font-family:Helvetica;font-size:=
12px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacin=
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ormal;word-spacing:0px" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/list=
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__________________________<br>
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--001a113773608a9785052e7b37e2--


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From: Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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--001a114b15845d1f33052e82da8a
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>
> *Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10*
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is
> incoherent with the intended status indicated for this document.
>
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops above,
> intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for loops.
>
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way that
> can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=
=80=9D below, it is
> in the present form of this protocol impossible), etc.
>

On those optional features, from the point of view of an engineer, I would
like to see:

   - how the features should be implemented. i.e., they should be clearly
specified.

   - What's the "benefit" of those features, as well as the "cost" -- for
example, message overhead, processing delay, complexity, etc., so that I
can decide if I need/should implement those features or not. If the
feature(s) has no cost but only benefit, it should go to the core
specification directly.

   - The interoperability with the implementations without the optional
features.

   - If the feature brings additional security threats. If yes, what's them
and how to mitigate them.

best

Jiazi

--001a114b15845d1f33052e82da8a
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><b><u>I=
ntermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10</u></b><br></div><div><div=
>Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is incoherent with the intended status indicated for this docume=
nt.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Specifically, and this is not unrelated =
to the point about loops above, intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a pot=
ential source for loops.</div><div><br></div><div>Expanding Ring Multicast =
(section 10.1) is not documented in a way that can be implemented (and also=
, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=80=9D below, it is in the pres=
ent form of this protocol impossible), etc.</div></div></div></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>On those optional features, from the point of view of an=
 engineer, I would like to see:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- how=
 the features should be implemented. i.e., they should be clearly specified=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- What&#39;s the &quot;benefi=
t&quot; of those features, as well as the &quot;cost&quot; -- for example, =
message overhead, processing delay, complexity, etc., so that I can decide =
if I need/should implement those features or not. If the feature(s) has no =
cost but only benefit, it should go to the core specification directly.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- The interoperability with the i=
mplementations without the optional features.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0- If the feature brings additional security threats. If yes,=
 what&#39;s them and how to mitigate them.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>b=
est</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div><br></div></=
div>

--001a114b15845d1f33052e82da8a--


From nobody Mon Mar 21 06:39:45 2016
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Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

        Title           : Identity-Based Signatures for MANET Routing Protocols
        Author          : Christopher Dearlove
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2016-03-21

Abstract:
   This document extends RFC7182, which specifies a framework for, and
   specific examples of, integrity check values (ICVs) for packets and
   messages using the generalized packet/message format specified in
   RFC5444.  It does so by defining an additional cryptographic function
   that allows the creation of an ICV that is an identity-based
   signature, defined according to the ECCSI (Elliptic Curve-Based
   Certificateless Signatures for Identity-Based Encryption) algorithm
   specified in RFC6507.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-ibs/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Stephen Farrell's Discuss on draft-ietf-manet-ibs-04: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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From nobody Mon Mar 21 07:15:21 2016
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Subject: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Abstain on draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05: (with COMMENT)
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Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05: Abstain

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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
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The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-ibs/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks for adding the text about public analysis being needed as part
of the experiment. I've cleared my DISCUSS on that basis.

I do think the text you've used in -05 could be improved still though,
you say that "it is intended" to promote this to the standards track,
but, while that is of course a good intention for the authors, I do not
think that the IETF can be said to have that intention - whether or
not that'll happen will depend on the experiment surely and the IETF
is not making promises about that. So I'd prefer if you had said "it
may be appropriate" instead, as suggested below. But I'm fine with
letting whoever is the sponsoring AD handle that as it'd not be 
reasonable to block an experimental RFC on just that basis.

I'm also moving to an ABSTAIN on this, as I'm not convinced that 
IBE is at all valuable here, given it's IMO fatal flaws in terms of
inherent key escrow. That is also not a DISCUSS as a) that's my
personal opinion and we don't have an IETF consensus against
IBE for that reason, and b) this is experimental so even if we did
have such a consensus, I'd bet it'd be limited to standards track
specifications. If you do intend for this to end up on the standards
track, then I'd suggest you also try to establish some IETF 
consensus for when it is appropriate (if ever) for an IETF 
standards-track specification to incorporate inherent key escrow.
(But, I would imagine establishing such a consensus would be
hard, if it's even possible.)

--- OLD DISCUSS BELOW

My main discuss point on -02 of this was:

(1) I am concerned that RFC6507 may not be ready for use in
standards-track RFCs. So far it has not been and I have found
no peer reviewed security or cryptographic analysis that
indicates that it is has been studied to see if it is good
enough for that. I've also not seen any MANET list discussion
of that aspect (and indeed the MANET list discussion I did
see seems to involve very few people).  I asked on the CFRG
list about RFC6507 and it seems [1] to be the case that
no-one has so far really evaluated its security, other than
folks associated with the author's institution. (Which
applies to both 6507 and this I think.) I also didn't find
any references to 6507 in Google scholar.  Lastly, I think we
should be, and be seen to be, more careful than usual with
this draft - given the situation with DUAL-EC-DRBG, and that
this is a new signature scheme that allows the KMS to fake
anyone's signature and the author involved.  Note that that
last is not any imputation of misbehaviour, but the IETF
would not be  doing due-dilligence if we didn't explicitly
consider that aspect.

  [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/cfrg/current/msg05540.html

The authors have added section 6.1 and changed the intended
status to experimental which does almost entirely resolve the
above. I have one issue with the text of 6.1 though that I think
needs fixing before we can proceed. I'll state that in the form of
an OLD/NEW suggestion in case that just works:

OLD:
	   This specification is thus published as experimental, in order to	
 	   encourage its use and reports of its use.  Once experiments have
been	
 	   carried out and reported, it is intended to advance this	
 	   specification, with any changes identified by such
experimentation,	
 	   to standards track.

NEW:
	   This specification is thus published as experimental, in order to	
 	   encourage its use and reports on its use.  Once experiments have
been	
 	   carried out and reported, and when some public analysis of the
underlying 
           cryptographic algorithms is available, it may be appropriate 
to advance this	
 	   specification, with any changes identified by such experimentation
and
           analysis, to standards track.

My reasoning is as follows: the main problem (I see) with this being on
the standards track is the total lack of public analysis of the signature

algorithm. That is not fixed via usage or reports of usage.

-- OLD COMMENTS BELOW

The text below were additional discuss points. 

While I'm ok with these not being specified in an experimental 
RFC, I think the absence of those bits of specification means 
that this is clearly not a complete spec that'd allow interop. 
(So that would need to be fixed before trying to get this back on 
the standards track.) The text does now at least ack that the 
revocation trick or some equivalent is needed, but fails to 
specify a concrete way of doing that. And while the authors don't
agree with me that private key provisioning needs to be
specified in an interoperable manner, I think that if one
was to produce any IBC standard that has to be a part of
the work, otherwise nodes are limited to working with a
KMS in a proprietary fashion, which is a kind of vendor
lockin.

The old discuss points are below. I think this would be
better if these issues were also called out in section
6.1 but I'll not block on that basis. Perhaps the responsible
AD might think about whether that really needs to be
mentioned or not.

(2) How does a router get its private key? Why is it ok to
not specify that? Seems like an interop fail if that is not
done.

(4) 4.1: The usual revocation trick of including a time value
in the name is referred to at the end of this section but
without sufficient detail to allow interop. Why is that ok?



From nobody Mon Mar 21 07:37:28 2016
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From: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP last call
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Hi Stan,

Looking at it more closely, I think there is some inconsistency in the use
of Credit Request between Destination Update and Link Characteristics
Request.

7.3 DLEP Destination Update Message does not mention the possibility of
sending a Credit Request data item.

7.4. DLEP Link Characteristics Request Message does allow sending a Credit
Request data item.

8.3 only mentions Credit Request in a Destination Update, as you noted.

My reading is that 8.3 conflicts with both 7.3 and 7.4

I think we should decide which message the Credit Request belongs in,
Destination Update or Link Char Request, and then make everything consistent
with that choice.  (I don't think it should go in both, on the general
principle of not having two different ways of doing the same thing.)  If the
decision is for Destination Update, then 7.3 needs to allow Credit Request
and 7.4 probably goes away entirely.  If we go for Link Char Request, then
8.3 just needs to say that instead of Destination Update.

David

From:  Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
Date:  Friday, March 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM
To:  David Wiggins <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
Cc:  Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, manet IETF
<manet@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: [manet] DLEP last call

David, 

I went back and looked at the draft. Here is what I find (in part) in -02
Credit Windowing on Credit Request:

8.3 
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02#section-8.3>
.  Credit Request


   The Credit Request data item MAY be sent from either DLEP
   participant, as a data item in a DLEP Destination Update message, to
   indicate the desire for the partner to grant additional credits in
   order for data transfer to proceed on the session.


So, I'm not seeing a problem? Perhaps the text above should also include
Link Characteristics Request, but the original intent was to use Destination
Update, which is still bo-directional.

Regards,
Stan


On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL
<David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:
> I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).  The Credit
> Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message
> instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).  As I
> read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request
> messages, so modems can't request credits.
> 
> I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state
> that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics
> Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.  (I assume
> we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)
> 
> This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so
> hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.
> 
> David
> 
> On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"
> <manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:
> 
>> >Hi All,
>> >
>> >As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance
>> >to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
>> >draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>> >
>> >The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >
>> >Rick
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >manet mailing list
>> >manet@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet




--B_3541401435_17336291
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	charset="US-ASCII"
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf=
-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -we=
bkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">Hi Stan,</div><div style=3D"colo=
r: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></d=
iv><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-s=
ize: 14px;">Looking at it more closely, I think there is some inconsistency =
in the use of Credit Request between Destination Update and Link Characteris=
tics Request.</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">7.3 DLEP Destination Update M=
essage does not mention the possibility of sending a Credit Request data ite=
m.</div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; f=
ont-size: 14px;"><br></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">7.4. DLEP Li=
nk Characteristics Request Message does allow&nbsp;</font><span style=3D"font-=
family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">sending a Credit Request data=
 item.</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-=
size: 14px;"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; font-size: 14px;">8.3 only mentions Credit Request in a Destination Up=
date, as you noted.</span></div><div><br></div><div>My reading is that 8.3 c=
onflicts with both 7.3 and 7.4</div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,=
sans-serif">I think we should decide which message the Credit Request belong=
s in, Destination Update or Link Char Request, and then make everything cons=
istent with that choice. &nbsp;(I don't think it should go in both, on the g=
eneral principle of not having two different ways of doing the same thing.) =
&nbsp;If the decision is for Destination Update, then 7.3 needs to allow Cre=
dit Request and 7.4 probably goes away entirely. &nbsp;If we go for Link Cha=
r Request, then 8.3 just needs to say that instead of Destination Update.</f=
ont></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font f=
ace=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">David</font></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_=
SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 14px;"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-=
align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium non=
e; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #=
b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold">From: </span> Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan=
@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">=
Date: </span> Friday, March 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM<br><span style=3D"font-weight=
:bold">To: </span> David Wiggins &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.ed=
u">David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </=
span> Rick Taylor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">rick@t=
ropicalstormsoftware.com</a>&gt;, manet IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.=
org">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </spa=
n> Re: [manet] DLEP last call<br></div><div><br></div><div><meta http-equiv=3D=
"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">David,=
&nbsp;
<div><br></div><div>I went back and looked at the draft. Here is what I fin=
d (in part) in -02 Credit Windowing on Credit Request:&nbsp;</div><div><br><=
/div><div><pre class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span class=3D"" style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inli=
ne;font-size:1em;font-weight:bold"><h3 style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline=
;font-size:1em"><a class=3D"" name=3D"section-8.3" href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02#section-8.3" style=3D"color:black;text-=
decoration:none">8.3</a>.  Credit Request</h3></span>

   The Credit Request data item MAY be sent from either DLEP
   participant, as a data item in a DLEP Destination Update message, to
   indicate the desire for the partner to grant additional credits in
   order for data transfer to proceed on the session.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So, I'm not seeing a problem=
? Perhaps the text above should also include Link Characteristics Request, b=
ut the original intent was to use Destination Update, which is still bo-dire=
ctional.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div><div><b=
r></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 18=
, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu" target=3D"_blan=
k">David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).&nbsp; The Cr=
edit<br>
Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message<b=
r>
instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).&nbsp; As I=
<br>
read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request<br>=

messages, so modems can't request credits.<br><br>
I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state<=
br>
that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics<br>=

Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.&nbsp; (I assume<=
br>
we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)<br><br>
This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so<br>
hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.<br><br>
David<br><br>
On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bounces@ietf.org</a> on b=
ehalf of <a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">
rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
&gt;Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chanc=
e<br>
&gt;to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get<br>
&gt;draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br></blockqu=
ote></div><br></div></div></div></div></span></body></html>

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Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 10:47:23 -0400
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: "Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL" <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP last call
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David,


On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <
David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:

> Hi Stan,
>
> Looking at it more closely, I think there is some inconsistency in the use
> of Credit Request between Destination Update and Link Characteristics
> Request.
>
> 7.3 DLEP Destination Update Message does not mention the possibility of
> sending a Credit Request data item.
>

Good catch. I'll add that.

>
> 7.4. DLEP Link Characteristics Request Message does allow sending a
> Credit Request data item.
>
> 8.3 only mentions Credit Request in a Destination Update, as you noted.
>

Fixed in my current -03 draft, but I'll double-check.



>
> My reading is that 8.3 conflicts with both 7.3 and 7.4
>
> I think we should decide which message the Credit Request belongs in,
> Destination Update or Link Char Request, and then make everything
> consistent with that choice.  (I don't think it should go in both, on the
> general principle of not having two different ways of doing the same
> thing.)  If the decision is for Destination Update, then 7.3 needs to allow
> Credit Request and 7.4 probably goes away entirely.  If we go for Link Char
> Request, then 8.3 just needs to say that instead of Destination Update.
>


Here I disagree. The use cases (Destination Update vs. LCR) are slightly
different. And at the end of the day, I don't believe there's two ways of
doing the same thing - to request an increase in the Credit Window, you use
a Credit Request TLV. It can just "piggyback" on multiple carriers.

Regards,
Stan



>
> David
>
> From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, March 18, 2016 at 10:43 PM
> To: David Wiggins <David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu>
> Cc: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, manet IETF <
> manet@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP last call
>
> David,
>
> I went back and looked at the draft. Here is what I find (in part) in -02
> Credit Windowing on Credit Request:
>
> 8.3 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02#section-8.3>.  Credit Request
>
>    The Credit Request data item MAY be sent from either DLEP
>    participant, as a data item in a DLEP Destination Update message, to
>    indicate the desire for the partner to grant additional credits in
>    order for data transfer to proceed on the session.
>
>
>
> So, I'm not seeing a problem? Perhaps the text above should also include
> Link Characteristics Request, but the original intent was to use
> Destination Update, which is still bo-directional.
>
> Regards,
> Stan
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL <
> David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).  The Credit
>> Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message
>> instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).  As I
>> read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request
>> messages, so modems can't request credits.
>>
>> I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state
>> that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics
>> Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.  (I assume
>> we're allowing extensions to make such changes.)
>>
>> This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so
>> hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.
>>
>> David
>>
>> On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, "manet on behalf of Rick Taylor"
>> <manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi All,
>> >
>> >As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chance
>> >to read and submit any review comments, as I'd ideally like to get
>> >draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.
>> >
>> >The same applies to the credit windowing draft.
>> >
>> >Cheers,
>> >
>> >Rick
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >manet mailing list
>> >manet@ietf.org
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>
>

--001a113fbcc2abd992052e902c6d
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">David,=C2=A0<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Wiggins, David - 066=
5 - MITLL <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu"=
 target=3D"_blank">David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">Hi Stan,</d=
iv><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:=
14px"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if;font-size:14px">Looking at it more closely, I think there is some incons=
istency in the use of Credit Request between Destination Update and Link Ch=
aracteristics Request.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fon=
t-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">7.3 DLEP Destination Update Mes=
sage does not mention the possibility of sending a Credit Request data item=
.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Good catch. I&#39;ll add that=
. =C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:14px"><br></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">7.4. DLEP Link Ch=
aracteristics Request Message does allow=C2=A0</font><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px">sending a Credit Request data item.=
</span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:1=
4px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:14px">8.3 only mentions Credit Request in a Destination Update, as =
you noted.</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Fixed in my c=
urrent -03 draft, but I&#39;ll double-check.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-w=
ord"><div><br></div><div>My reading is that 8.3 conflicts with both 7.3 and=
 7.4</div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">I think we =
should decide which message the Credit Request belongs in, Destination Upda=
te or Link Char Request, and then make everything consistent with that choi=
ce. =C2=A0(I don&#39;t think it should go in both, on the general principle=
 of not having two different ways of doing the same thing.) =C2=A0If the de=
cision is for Destination Update, then 7.3 needs to allow Credit Request an=
d 7.4 probably goes away entirely.=C2=A0 If we go for Link Char Request, th=
en 8.3 just needs to say that instead of Destination Update.</font></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Here I disagree. The us=
e cases (Destination Update vs. LCR) are slightly different. And at the end=
 of the day, I don&#39;t believe there&#39;s two ways of doing the same thi=
ng - to request an increase in the Credit Window, you use a Credit Request =
TLV. It can just &quot;piggyback&quot; on multiple carriers.=C2=A0</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Regards,<br>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><font f=
ace=3D"Calibri,sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans=
-serif">David</font></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><br></div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14px"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibr=
i;font-size:11pt;text-align:left;color:black;BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORD=
ER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;B=
ORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Stan Ratliff &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br=
><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Friday, March 18, 2016 at 1=
0:43 PM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> David Wiggins &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">David.Wiggins@=
ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Rick Tay=
lor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>&gt;, manet IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
anet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight:bold">Subject: </span> Re: [manet] DLEP last call<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr">David,=C2=A0
<div><br></div><div>I went back and looked at the draft. Here is what I fin=
d (in part) in -02 Credit Windowing on Credit Request:=C2=A0</div><div><br>=
</div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline;font-siz=
e:1em;font-weight:bold"><h3 style=3D"line-height:0pt;display:inline;font-si=
ze:1em"><a name=3D"7335932492997826141_section-8.3" href=3D"https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-02#section-8.3" style=3D"color:=
black;text-decoration:none" target=3D"_blank">8.3</a>.  Credit Request</h3>=
</span>

   The Credit Request data item MAY be sent from either DLEP
   participant, as a data item in a DLEP Destination Update message, to
   indicate the desire for the partner to grant additional credits in
   order for data transfer to proceed on the session.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>So, I&#39;m not seeing a pro=
blem? Perhaps the text above should also include Link Characteristics Reque=
st, but the original intent was to use Destination Update, which is still b=
o-directional.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div>=
<div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Wiggins, David - 0665 - MITLL
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu" target=3D=
"_blank">David.Wiggins@ll.mit.edu</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">
I just found a small issue in the credit windowing draft (02).=C2=A0 The Cr=
edit<br>
Request data item is now sent in the Link Characteristics Request message<b=
r>
instead of the Destination Update message (as of -01, it seems).=C2=A0 As I=
<br>
read the DLEP draft, only routers can send Link Characteristics Request<br>
messages, so modems can&#39;t request credits.<br><br>
I think this could be fixed by having the credit windowing extension state<=
br>
that it is changing the core protocol to allow the Link Characteristics<br>
Request (and Response) messages to be sent by either side.=C2=A0 (I assume<=
br>
we&#39;re allowing extensions to make such changes.)<br><br>
This draft has to be updated anyway to put in Destination Announce, so<br>
hopefully this can be worked in at the same time.<br><br>
David<br><br>
On 3/18/16, 9:05 AM, &quot;manet on behalf of Rick Taylor&quot;<br>
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">
rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
&gt;Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;As we are looking to exit last-call with DLEP, has everyone had a chanc=
e<br>
&gt;to read and submit any review comments, as I&#39;d ideally like to get<=
br>
&gt;draft-21 out ASAP and move the document up the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;The same applies to the credit windowing draft.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;manet mailing list<br>
&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><=
br>
&gt;<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br></=
blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></span></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

        Title           : Credit Windowing extension for DLEP
        Author          : Stan Ratliff
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
	Pages           : 12
	Date            : 2016-03-21

Abstract:
   This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to provide a
   credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for destination-
   specific flow control.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

        Title           : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP)
        Authors         : Stan Ratliff
                          Bo Berry
                          Cisco Systems
                          Darryl Satterwhite
                          Rick Taylor
	Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt
	Pages           : 63
	Date            : 2016-03-21

Abstract:
   When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over
   wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the
   characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make
   routing decisions.  In mobile or other environments where these
   characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the
   inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not
   allow the router to make the best decisions.  A bidirectional, event-
   driven communication channel between the router and the modem is
   necessary.


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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
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All,

Just posted an updated version of the Credit Windowing draft. This draft
does *not* include the proposed updated verbiage in the email exchange with
Lou Berger - Lou, I had a conversation with Rick Taylor where he talked me
out of it... ;-)

So, this proposes what was referred to as "Option 2" in James Stevens'
email. I believe it addresses the comments from David Wiggins as well.

Regards,
Stan


On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Credit Windowing extension for DLEP
>         Author          : Stan Ratliff
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
>         Pages           : 12
>         Date            : 2016-03-21
>
> Abstract:
>    This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to provide a
>    credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for destination-
>    specific flow control.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div>All, <br><br></div>Just posted an upda=
ted version of the Credit Windowing draft. This draft does *not* include th=
e proposed updated verbiage in the email exchange with Lou Berger - Lou, I =
had a conversation with Rick Taylor where he talked me out of it... ;-) <br=
><br></div>So, this proposes what was referred to as &quot;Option 2&quot; i=
n James Stevens&#39; email. I believe it addresses the comments from David =
Wiggins as well. <br><br></div>Regards,<br></div>Stan<br><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM=
,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Credit Windowing extension for DLEP<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Stan=
 Ratliff<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-manet-credit-window-03.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 12<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2016-03-21<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to prov=
ide a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for desti=
nation-<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific flow control.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra=
ft-ietf-manet-credit-window/</a><br>
<br>
There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03" r=
el=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-=
manet-credit-window-03</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-credit-wind=
ow-03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?ur=
l2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--047d7bdc15bacd9a3f052e9245e3--


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References: <RT-Ticket-116874@www.ietf.org/rt> <20160321171400.31965.49741.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <CALtoyonzaTTdTq=g=xWVmnEN=t0hmnxcjC9rQZU-dCOAsc4KOg@mail.gmail.com> <rt-4.0.8-17764-1458580680-281.116874-3-0@www.ietf.org/rt>
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
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Hello WG,

Oops. Sent this to the wrong address. Correcting here.

Regards,
Stan


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: IETF-Draft Submission Queue via RT <ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:18 PM
Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #116874] AutoReply: Re: [manet] I-D Action:
draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
To: ratliffstan@gmail.com



Greetings,

This message has been automatically generated in response to the
creation of a trouble ticket regarding:
        "Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt",
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                        Thank you,
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------
All,

Just posted an updated version of the Credit Windowing draft. This draft
does *not* include the proposed updated verbiage in the email exchange with
Lou Berger - Lou, I had a conversation with Rick Taylor where he talked me
out of it... ;-)

So, this proposes what was referred to as "Option 2" in James Stevens'
email. I believe it addresses the comments from David Wiggins as well.

Regards,
Stan


On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Credit Windowing extension for DLEP
>         Author          : Stan Ratliff
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
>         Pages           : 12
>         Date            : 2016-03-21
>
> Abstract:
>    This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to provide a
>    credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for destination-
>    specific flow control.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hello WG, <br><br></div>Oops. Sent this to =
the wrong address. Correcting here. <br><br></div>Regards,<br></div>Stan<br=
><br><br><div><div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarde=
d message ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">IETF-Draft Subm=
ission Queue via RT</b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-draft-=
submission@ietf.org">ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date:=
 Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:18 PM<br>Subject: [<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/r=
t">www.ietf.org/rt</a> #116874] AutoReply: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ie=
tf-manet-credit-window-03.txt<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.co=
m">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a><br><br><br><br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
This message has been automatically generated in response to the<br>
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-=
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=A0 =C2=A0 Thank you,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org">ietf-draft-sub=
mission@ietf.org</a><br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
All,<br>
<br>
Just posted an updated version of the Credit Windowing draft. This draft<br=
>
does *not* include the proposed updated verbiage in the email exchange with=
<br>
Lou Berger - Lou, I had a conversation with Rick Taylor where he talked me<=
br>
out of it... ;-)<br>
<br>
So, this proposes what was referred to as &quot;Option 2&quot; in James Ste=
vens&#39;<br>
email. I believe it addresses the comments from David Wiggins as well.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Stan<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf=
.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts<br>
&gt; directories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: Credit Windowing extension for DLEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: 12<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 : 2016-03-21<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to=
 provide a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for =
destination-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specific flow control.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-wi=
ndow/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-=
03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-manet-credit-window-03</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-credit=
-window-03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdi=
ff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of<br>
&gt; submission<br>
&gt; until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http:/=
/tools.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" tar=
get=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div><br></div></div></div></div></div>

--047d7bdc15baaa8a67052e924f6a--


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From: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@airbus.com>
To: "'internet-drafts@ietf.org'" <internet-drafts@ietf.org>, "i-d-announce@ietf.org" <i-d-announce@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt
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Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt
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A couple of nits (sorry!) :

9.20 - Missing parenthesis around Section 4.3.1. in final para
12.1 - Dynamic Link Event Protocol should be Dynamic Link Exchange Protoc=
ol
12.5- 132 is listed twice. I think the range for "Specification Required"=
 should be 133 - 239
12.8 (very minor) "a IPv4" and "a IPv6" -> "an IPv4" and "an IPv6"

Steve

>-----Original Message-----
>From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-
>drafts@ietf.org
>Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 5:14 PM
>To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>Cc: manet@ietf.org
>Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt
>
>
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direc=
tories.
>This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.
>
>        Title           : Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol (DLEP)
>        Authors         : Stan Ratliff
>                          Bo Berry
>                          Cisco Systems
>                          Darryl Satterwhite
>                          Rick Taylor
>=09Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt
>=09Pages           : 63
>=09Date            : 2016-03-21
>
>Abstract:
>   When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over
>   wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the
>   characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make
>   routing decisions.  In mobile or other environments where these
>   characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the
>   inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not
>   allow the router to make the best decisions.  A bidirectional, event-
>   driven communication channel between the router and the modem is
>   necessary.
>
>
>The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/
>
>There's also a htmlized version available at:
>https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21
>
>A diff from the previous version is available at:
>https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-dlep-21
>
>
>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submis=
sion
>until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>_______________________________________________
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Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07.txt
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Hi,

The coauthors of olsrv2-multipath believe that the issues raised on the
draft have been addressed (some nits have been found after the submission
of -07, which will be improved in -08).

Although we know that having the second WGLC is a good way to trigger
comments :) , it's still appreciated that we can have some feedbacks on the
solution that we proposed before the next WGLC.

For your convenience, if you want to have an idea about how the major
issues are addressed and clarified, taking a look at the post below should
be enough.

regards

Jiazi


On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 11:45 PM, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> As you has seen, a new revision of the olsrv2-multipath draft was just
> submitted.
> Lots of modifications have been made based on Ulrich and Chris' comments
> -- thanks very much!
>
> For your convenience, here is a reply to the comments, explaining how the=
y
> are updated in the new draft.
>
> Two major issues raised:
>
> *1. Issues related to Source Routing*
>
> Both Chris and Ulrich raised their concern on the source routing. The
> MP-OLSR extension uses standard IP source routing, which is clarified and
> improved in the new revision of the draft.
> For IPv4 networks, the datagram is forwarded using RFC 791 IPv4 loose
> source routing. This is due to the limitation of the IPv4 header length. =
If
> the number of intermediate routers exceed the capacity of the IP header,
> loose source routing is applied.
> For IPv6 networks, IPv6 strict source routing based on RFC6554 is used,
> because IPv6 header has no strict limit on the length and RFC6554 support=
s
> address compression. A difference it would make compared to loose source
> routing is when they are non-source-routing routers in the network: those
> routers won't be taken into account when calculating multiple paths. This
> will impact the performance of multipath routing, which I'll discuss in
> detail in the issues related to interoperability.
> In the new revision, the use of IP source routing is clarified.
>
> *2. Interoperability with OLSRv2 / MPR selection*
>
> Only a new message TLV is added to TC/HELLO messages. All the information
> bases of OLSRv2 are kept and used in MP-OLSRv2. In fact, MP-OLSRv2 is not
> designed to replace OLSRv2, but more as an extension to improve the
> performance of certain applications. If necessary, MP-OLSRv2 will fall ba=
ck
> to OLSRv2. In the new revision, a new CUTOFF_RATIO is used: when the
> multiple paths to be obtained are worse than the cutoff value, the router
> will fall back to OLSRv2 automatically.
>
> Specifically, to answer Thomas' questions:
>
> "Will the presence of an OLSRv2 router in an OLSRv2-MP network break the
>> -MP network"?
>>
>
> No
>
>
>> "Will the presence of an OLSRv2-MP router in an OLSRv2 network break the
>> OLSRv2 network"?
>>
>
> No
>
>
>> "Will an OLSRv2-MP router be able to function in an OLSRv2 network"?
>>
>
> Yes
>
>
>> "Will an OLSRv2 router be able to function in an OLSRv2-MP network"?
>
>
> Yes.
>
>
>> And then, of course, what happens if it's not "a single" but "a bunch of=
"
>> ....
>
>
> Yes.
> One case that need to pay attention is that, if there are too many OLSRv2
> routers in the network, the multipath routing won't work effectively -- i=
t
> will degrade (IPv4 loose source routing case) or fall back (IPv6 strict
> loose source routing case) to single path routing. But all those won't
> break the network.
>
> Chris mentioned an issue related to MPR selection. Generally speaking, as
> OLSRv2 uses a reduced topology graph (in terms of both vertex and edges) =
,
> not every MP-OLSR router can be recognized as source-routing enabled,
> unless it generates a HELLO or TC message. The solution that we proposed =
is:
>    - MP-OLSR enabled routers MUST generate TC messages even it's not
> required to do so according to normal OLSR process, but with longer
> interval. This is because the change from MP-OLSR enabled to OLSR-only
> router is very rare compared to topology changes. The corresponding
> SR_OLSR_HOLD_TIME will be set to longer value also.
>     - During routing MPR selection, an MP-OLSR enabled router SHOULD be
> firstly considered. The number of MP-OLSR enabled MPRs MUST be equal or
> greater than NUMBER_OF_PATHS, providing there are enough MP-OLSR symmetri=
c
> neighbors. Or else, all the MP-OLSR routers are selected as MPR.
> ----------
> Steps above can have MP-OLSR enabled routers and links be discovered as
> much as possible, while retaining the benefits of OLSRv2 topology
> reduction. In the worst case, we fall back to single path OLSRv2, and the
> network won't break.
>
> Chris also mentioned the interoperability between the multipath extension
> and the multi-topology extension. As far as I can see, there is no issue
> for them working together. In fact, it might even interesting to build
> mutiple paths using the multi-topology information, which is added as an
> item of the "experimental points".
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D
>
> Other questions and clarifications:
>
>
>> o NUMBER_OF_PATHS: Is this a constant? Can it change during router
>> operations? If so what are the constraints, and how does the change
>> impact existing routes? Is this a constant per router, or could I
>> have, say, 3 paths for a certain destination that I need a lot, but
>> only 1 for others?
>
>
> Generally speaking, there is no strict constraints on this value.
> Different routers using different values, or a router changing it won't
> impact the interoperability.
>
> o MAX_SRC_HOPS: same as above. (constant? constraints?)
>> Do these two parameters have to be negotiated between all routers or are
>> there no interop problems if routers use different values in the network=
?
>
>
> The don't have to be negotiated. But for better support of IPv6 source
> routing, a the MAX_SRC_HOPS must be set to 0 (see the consideration of IP
> source routing).
>
> o fp/fe: This is a function (of what?). I am not sure I understand
>> why this is listed under a section Parameters. How can I implement this?
>
> As it's more algorithm specific, it's now moved to the section of the
> algorithm.
>
>> - section 7.2 Multi-path Routing Set:
>> How does this interact with the Routing Set in OLSRv2? Is this used
>> instead?
>
>
>  There is no direct interact with the routing set in OLSRv2, and doesn't
> replace OLSRv2's Routing Set.
>
> - "PT_cost -   the cost of the path to the destination"
>> Cost in what? Hops? Does this support metrics other than hop count?
>
> ...
>
>> 7.2 has costs of paths. If this is OLSRv2 path metric, use that term. If
>> not, why not?
>
>
> As an extension to OLSRv2, MP-OLSR uses the same metric type as OLSRv2.
> For consistency, we now use "metric", rather than "cost" in the draft.
> The example in the appendix is also updated using an arbitrary metric.
>
> - Section 8.2.: SR_OLSR_HOLD_TIME
>> What is the relationship with other OLSRv2 information sets? Could
>> there be a situation where I still have an SR-OLSR Router Tuple, but
>> the same destination is not present anymore in other OLSRv2 sets
>> (Routing Set, Topology Set etc). Since the hold_time can be chosen
>> independently, that seems possible.
>
> ...
>
> Does the MR_valid_time have to be the same as the timeout on
>> the Routing Set?
>
>
> The following updates are made:
>
> For the SR_OLSR_HOLD_TIME, it's set to 3*SR_TC_INTERVAL, in which
> SR_TC_INATERVAL is 10*TC_INTERVAL. The SR-OLSRv2 Router Set only servers
> for identifying if a router is source-routing enabled or not, which won't
> be changed frequently.
>
> For the tuples in Multi-path Routing set, they won't subject to
> timer-based expiration (like the OLSRv2 Routing Set). Instead, all the
> tuple will be removed whenever there is need to update the OLSRv2 Routing
> Set -- and the new tuples of Multi-path routing set will be recalculated
> on-demand. This can make it more reactive to the topology changes.
>
> - "   o  If the length of the path (n) is greater than MAX_SRC_HOPS, only
>>       the key routers in the path are kept.  By default, the key routers
>>       are uniformly chosen in the path."
>> What are key routers? How does this work?
>>    o  The routers with higher priority (such as higher routing
>>       willingness defined in [RFC7181]) are preferred.
>> How?
>
> Generally speaking, routers with greater capacity (such as higher
> transmission power, longer battery life, etc) and greater willingness in
> forwarding packets are preferred.
> Of course, those information is not always available. By default, the
> "key" routers are chosen uniformly in the path.
> We clarified it in the new revision.
>
> Section 1.1, first list, point 3. I don=E2=80=99t see this as a motivatio=
n for
>> multiple path routing. If routers are not to be used, that=E2=80=99s an =
issue for
>> single path routing too.
>
> The point 3 is: Certain scenarios require some routers must (or must not)
> be used.
>
> It's a motivation for source routing.
>
> Appendix, I haven=E2=80=99t studied, but I=E2=80=99d like to see an examp=
le not using hop
>> count. There=E2=80=99s a lot at the end that raises more questions than =
it answers.
>> Delay isn=E2=80=99t just about number of hops (and 50 is an exceptional =
case). If
>> delay matters, it should be part of your metric and handled that way.
>
>
> fixed by using an arbitrary metric.
>
> - Section 8.4: This doesn't use the information bases that have been
>> defined before. How can I implement this using the existing
>> information form the protocol? (without all that abstraction)
>
>
> Now it's separated into two subsection, one for requirements of the
> algorithm, and one for the default multipath dijkstra algorithm. The
> connection with the information bases is also built.
>
> security consideration section
>
>
> The security consideration section is updated a bit. Compared to OLSRv2,
> the vulnerability mainly comes from the source routing. Is it adequate?
> Let's leave it as an open question for the moment.
>
> Thanks again for your valuable comments. I'm looking forward to your
> further suggestions.
>
> regards
>
> Jiazi
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 11:29 PM
> Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07.txt
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
>
>
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>  This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group of
> the IETF.
>
>         Title           : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link
> State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2)
>         Authors         : Jiazi Yi
>                           Benoit Parrein
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07.txt
>         Pages           : 21
>         Date            : 2016-01-20
>
> Abstract:
>    This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link
>    State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple
>    disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol.
>    The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained.
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/
>
> There's also a htmlized version available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07
>
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>The coauthors of olsrv2-multi=
path believe that the issues raised on the draft have been addressed (some =
nits have been found after the submission of -07, which will be improved in=
 -08).=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Although we know that having the seco=
nd WGLC is a good way to trigger comments :) , it&#39;s still appreciated t=
hat we can have some feedbacks on the solution that we proposed before the =
next WGLC.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>For your convenience, if you want=
 to have an idea about how the major issues are addressed and clarified, ta=
king a look at the post below should be enough.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><=
div>regards</div><div><br></div><div>Jiazi</div><div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 11:45 PM, J=
iazi YI <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@jiaziyi.com" target=3D=
"_blank">ietf@jiaziyi.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Dear all,=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=
As you has seen, a new revision of the olsrv2-multipath draft was just subm=
itted.=C2=A0</div><div>Lots of modifications have been made based on Ulrich=
 and Chris&#39; comments -- thanks very much!</div><div><br></div><div>For =
your convenience, here is a reply to the comments, explaining how they are =
updated in the new draft.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Two major issues r=
aised:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>1. Issues related to Source Routin=
g</b></div><div><br></div><div>Both Chris and Ulrich raised their concern o=
n the source routing. The MP-OLSR extension uses standard IP source routing=
, which is clarified and improved in the new revision of the draft.=C2=A0</=
div><div>For IPv4 networks, the datagram is forwarded using RFC 791 IPv4 lo=
ose source routing. This is due to the limitation of the IPv4 header length=
. If the number of intermediate routers exceed the capacity of the IP heade=
r, loose source routing is applied. =C2=A0</div><div>For IPv6 networks, IPv=
6 strict source routing based on RFC6554 is used, because IPv6 header has n=
o strict limit on the length and RFC6554 supports address compression. A di=
fference it would make compared to loose source routing is when they are no=
n-source-routing routers in the network: those routers won&#39;t be taken i=
nto account when calculating multiple paths. This will impact the performan=
ce of multipath routing, which I&#39;ll discuss in detail in the issues rel=
ated to interoperability.=C2=A0</div><div>In the new revision, the use of I=
P source routing is clarified.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>2. Interop=
erability with OLSRv2 / MPR selection</b></div><div><b><br></b></div><div>O=
nly a new message TLV is added to TC/HELLO messages. All the information ba=
ses of OLSRv2 are kept and used in MP-OLSRv2. In fact, MP-OLSRv2 is not des=
igned to replace OLSRv2, but more as an extension to improve the performanc=
e of certain applications. If necessary, MP-OLSRv2 will fall back to OLSRv2=
. In the new revision, a new CUTOFF_RATIO is used: when the multiple paths =
to be obtained are worse than the cutoff value, the router will fall back t=
o OLSRv2 automatically.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Specifically, to ans=
wer Thomas&#39; questions:</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">&quot;=
Will the presence of an OLSRv2 router in an OLSRv2-MP network break the -MP=
 network&quot;?=C2=A0<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>No</div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex">&quot;Will the presence of an OLSRv2-MP router in=
 an OLSRv2 network break the OLSRv2 network&quot;?<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>No</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(2=
04,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">&quot;Will an OLSRv2-=
MP router be able to function in an OLSRv2 network&quot;?<br></blockquote><=
div><br></div><div>Yes</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-col=
or:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">&quot;Will an=
 OLSRv2 router be able to function in an OLSRv2-MP network&quot;?=C2=A0</bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1p=
x;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1=
ex">And then, of course, what happens if it&#39;s not &quot;a single&quot; =
but &quot;a bunch of&quot; ....</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes.=C2=A0<=
/div><div>One case that need to pay attention is that, if there are too man=
y OLSRv2 routers in the network, the multipath routing won&#39;t work effec=
tively -- it will degrade (IPv4 loose source routing case) or fall back (IP=
v6 strict loose source routing case) to single path routing. But all those =
won&#39;t break the network. =C2=A0</div></div><div><br></div><div>Chris me=
ntioned an issue related to MPR selection. Generally speaking, as OLSRv2 us=
es a reduced topology graph (in terms of both vertex and edges) , not every=
 MP-OLSR router can be recognized as source-routing enabled, unless it gene=
rates a HELLO or TC message. The solution that we proposed is:</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0- MP-OLSR enabled routers MUST generate TC messages even it&#3=
9;s not required to do so according to normal OLSR process, but with longer=
 interval. This is because the change from MP-OLSR enabled to OLSR-only rou=
ter is very rare compared to topology changes. The corresponding SR_OLSR_HO=
LD_TIME will be set to longer value also.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 - D=
uring routing MPR selection, an MP-OLSR enabled router SHOULD be firstly co=
nsidered. The number of MP-OLSR enabled MPRs MUST be equal or greater than =
NUMBER_OF_PATHS, providing there are enough MP-OLSR symmetric neighbors. Or=
 else, all the MP-OLSR routers are selected as MPR.</div><div>----------</d=
iv><div>Steps above can have MP-OLSR enabled routers and links be discovere=
d as much as possible, while retaining the benefits of OLSRv2 topology redu=
ction. In the worst case, we fall back to single path OLSRv2, and the netwo=
rk won&#39;t break.=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div>Chris also mentioned=
 the interoperability between the multipath extension and the multi-topolog=
y extension. As far as I can see, there is no issue for them working togeth=
er. In fact, it might even interesting to build mutiple paths using the mul=
ti-topology information, which is added as an item of the &quot;experimenta=
l points&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Other questions and clarifications:=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-w=
idth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding=
-left:1ex">o NUMBER_OF_PATHS: Is this a constant? Can it change during rout=
er<br>operations? If so what are the constraints, and how does the change<b=
r>impact existing routes? Is this a constant per router, or could I<br>have=
, say, 3 paths for a certain destination that I need a lot, but<br>only 1 f=
or others?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>Generally speaking, there is no =
strict constraints on this value. Different routers using different values,=
 or a router changing it won&#39;t impact the interoperability.=C2=A0</div>=
<div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">o MAX_SRC_HOPS: same as above. (consta=
nt? constraints?)<br>Do these two parameters have to be negotiated between =
all routers or=C2=A0are there no interop problems if routers use different =
values in the network?</blockquote><div><br></div><div>The don&#39;t have t=
o be negotiated. But for better support of IPv6 source routing, a the MAX_S=
RC_HOPS must be set to 0 (see the consideration of IP source routing).=C2=
=A0<br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">o fp/fe: This is a functi=
on (of what?). I am not sure I understand why=C2=A0this is listed under a s=
ection Parameters. How can I implement this?</blockquote><p>As it&#39;s mor=
e algorithm specific, it&#39;s now moved to the section of the algorithm.=
=C2=A0</p><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-sty=
le:solid;padding-left:1ex">- section 7.2 Multi-path Routing Set:<br>How doe=
s this interact with the Routing Set in OLSRv2? Is this used<br>instead?=C2=
=A0</blockquote><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0There is no direct interact with =
the routing set in OLSRv2, and doesn&#39;t replace OLSRv2&#39;s Routing Set=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,2=
04,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">- &quot;PT_cost - =C2=A0 =
the cost of the path to the destination&quot;<br>Cost in what? Hops? Does t=
his support metrics other than hop count?</blockquote><div>...</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex">7.2 has costs of paths. If this is OLSRv2 path metric, use that t=
erm. If not, why not?=C2=A0</blockquote><div><br></div><div>As an extension=
 to OLSRv2, MP-OLSR uses the same metric type as OLSRv2.=C2=A0</div><div>Fo=
r consistency, we now use &quot;metric&quot;, rather than &quot;cost&quot; =
in the draft.=C2=A0</div><div>The example in the appendix is also updated u=
sing an arbitrary metric.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
- Section 8.2.: SR_OLSR_HOLD_TIME<br>What is the relationship with other OL=
SRv2 information sets? Could<br>there be a situation where I still have an =
SR-OLSR Router Tuple, but<br>the same destination is not present anymore in=
 other OLSRv2 sets<br>(Routing Set, Topology Set etc). Since the hold_time =
can be chosen<br>independently, that seems possible.</blockquote><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">...=C2=A0</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,2=
04);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Does the MR_valid_time have t=
o be the same as the timeout on<br>the Routing Set?=C2=A0</blockquote></div=
><div><br></div><div>The following updates are made:</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>For the SR_OLSR_HOLD_TIME, it&#39;s set to 3*SR_TC_INTERVAL, in which SR=
_TC_INATERVAL is 10*TC_INTERVAL. The SR-OLSRv2 Router Set only servers for =
identifying if a router is source-routing enabled or not, which won&#39;t b=
e changed frequently.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>For the tuples in Mult=
i-path Routing set, they won&#39;t subject to timer-based expiration (like =
the OLSRv2 Routing Set). Instead, all the tuple will be removed whenever th=
ere is need to update the OLSRv2 Routing Set -- and the new tuples of Multi=
-path routing set will be recalculated on-demand. This can make it more rea=
ctive to the topology changes.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1p=
x;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1=
ex">- &quot; =C2=A0 o=C2=A0 If the length of the path (n) is greater than M=
AX_SRC_HOPS, only<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the key routers in the path are k=
ept.=C2=A0 By default, the key routers<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 are uniforml=
y chosen in the path.&quot;<br>What are key routers? How does this work?<br=
>=C2=A0=C2=A0 o=C2=A0 The routers with higher priority (such as higher rout=
ing<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 willingness defined in [RFC7181]) are preferred=
.<br>How?</blockquote><p></p><p></p><p></p></div><div>Generally speaking, r=
outers with greater capacity (such as higher transmission power, longer bat=
tery life, etc) and greater willingness in forwarding packets are preferred=
.=C2=A0</div><div>Of course, those information is not always available. By =
default, the &quot;key&quot; routers are chosen uniformly in the path.=C2=
=A0</div><div>We clarified it in the new revision.=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:=
solid;padding-left:1ex">Section 1.1, first list, point 3. I don=E2=80=99t s=
ee this as a motivation for multiple path routing. If routers are not to be=
 used, that=E2=80=99s an issue for single path routing too.</blockquote><p>=
The point 3 is:=C2=A0Certain scenarios require some routers must (or must n=
ot) be used.<br></p><p>It&#39;s a motivation for source routing.=C2=A0</p><=
p></p><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">Appendix, I haven=E2=80=99t studied, but I=E2=80=99d=
 like to see an example not using hop count. There=E2=80=99s a lot at the e=
nd that raises more questions than it answers. Delay isn=E2=80=99t just abo=
ut number of hops (and 50 is an exceptional case). If delay matters, it sho=
uld be part of your metric and handled that way.</blockquote></div><div><br=
></div><div>fixed by using an arbitrary metric.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">- Section 8.4: This doesn&#39;t use the information ba=
ses that have been<br>defined before. How can I implement this using the ex=
isting<br>information form the protocol? (without all that abstraction)</bl=
ockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Now it&#39;s separated into two subsecti=
on, one for requirements of the algorithm, and one for the default multipat=
h dijkstra algorithm. The connection with the information bases is also bui=
lt.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">security consideration=
 section</blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>The security consideration s=
ection is updated a bit. Compared to OLSRv2, the vulnerability mainly comes=
 from the source routing. Is it adequate? Let&#39;s leave it as an open que=
stion for the moment.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again for your =
valuable comments. I&#39;m looking forward to your further suggestions.=C2=
=A0</div><div><br></div><div>regards</div><span><font color=3D"#888888"><di=
v><br></div><div>Jiazi</div></font></span></div></div></div></div><div><div=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>=
From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername"></b> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 11:29 PM<br>Subject: [manet] I=
-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07.txt<br>To: <a href=3D"mailt=
o:i-d-announce@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">i-d-announce@ietf.org</a><br>Cc:=
 <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>=
<br><br><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
=C2=A0This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group=
 of the IETF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version=
 2 (OLSRv2)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Jiaz=
i Yi<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Benoit Parrein<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 21<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2016-01-20<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimiz=
ed Link<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple=
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 pro=
tocol.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained.<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipa=
th/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/=
draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/</a><br>
<br>
There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ie=
tf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07</a><br>
<br>
A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-mult=
ipath-07" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff=
?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-07</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</div><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--047d7b5d9c3b6318b5052e96993b--


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Subject: Re: [manet] Fwd: [www.ietf.org/rt #116874] AutoReply: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
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--001a113d5edc98a738052e9bdcef
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Big thanks for the recent turn around and revisions to both the editors and
the reviewers.  The rough consensus seems to be it's not perfect but good
enough/better than it was.  I didn't read anything either in the draft or
comments from other reviewers that was a show stopper so this will (again)
be sent on up.  Note to the editors this isn't finished yet but with the
continued effort being currently put in it should be done soon.

Justin

On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello WG,
>
> Oops. Sent this to the wrong address. Correcting here.
>
> Regards,
> Stan
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: IETF-Draft Submission Queue via RT <ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org>
> Date: Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:18 PM
> Subject: [www.ietf.org/rt #116874] AutoReply: Re: [manet] I-D Action:
> draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
> To: ratliffstan@gmail.com
>
>
>
> Greetings,
>
> This message has been automatically generated in response to the
> creation of a trouble ticket regarding:
>         "Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt",
> a summary of which appears below.
>
> There is no need to reply to this message right now.  Your ticket has been
> assigned an ID of [www.ietf.org/rt #116874].
>
> Please include the string:
>
>          [www.ietf.org/rt #116874]
>
> in the subject line of all future correspondence about this issue. To do
> so,
> you may reply to this message.
>
>
>                         Thank you,
>                         ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> All,
>
> Just posted an updated version of the Credit Windowing draft. This draft
> does *not* include the proposed updated verbiage in the email exchange with
> Lou Berger - Lou, I had a conversation with Rick Taylor where he talked me
> out of it... ;-)
>
> So, this proposes what was referred to as "Option 2" in James Stevens'
> email. I believe it addresses the comments from David Wiggins as well.
>
> Regards,
> Stan
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> > directories.
> > This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.
> >
> >         Title           : Credit Windowing extension for DLEP
> >         Author          : Stan Ratliff
> >         Filename        : draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt
> >         Pages           : 12
> >         Date            : 2016-03-21
> >
> > Abstract:
> >    This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to provide a
> >    credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for destination-
> >    specific flow control.
> >
> >
> > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/
> >
> > There's also a htmlized version available at:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03
> >
> > A diff from the previous version is available at:
> > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03
> >
> >
> > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > submission
> > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
> >
> > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
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--001a113d5edc98a738052e9bdcef
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Big thanks for the recent turn around and revisi=
ons to both the editors and the reviewers.=C2=A0 The rough consensus seems =
to be it&#39;s not perfect but good enough/better than it was.=C2=A0 I didn=
&#39;t read anything either in the draft or comments from other reviewers t=
hat was a show stopper so this will (again) be sent on up.=C2=A0 Note to th=
e editors this isn&#39;t finished yet but with the continued effort being c=
urrently put in it should be done soon.<br></div><br></div>Justin<br><div><=
div><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On =
Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:20 PM, Stan Ratliff <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
div><div>Hello WG, <br><br></div>Oops. Sent this to the wrong address. Corr=
ecting here. <br><br></div>Regards,<br></div>Stan<br><br><br><div><div><div=
><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br=
>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">IETF-Draft Submission Queue via RT</b>=
 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span><br>Date: Mon,=
 Mar 21, 2016 at 1:18 PM<br>Subject: [<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rt" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">www.ietf.org/rt</a> #116874] AutoReply: Re: [manet] I-D Act=
ion: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ratliff=
stan@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a><br><br><br><br>
Greetings,<br>
<br>
This message has been automatically generated in response to the<br>
creation of a trouble ticket regarding:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-=
credit-window-03.txt&quot;,<br>
a summary of which appears below.<br>
<br>
There is no need to reply to this message right now.=C2=A0 Your ticket has =
been<br>
assigned an ID of [<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rt" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">www.ietf.org/rt</a> #116874].<br>
<br>
Please include the string:<br>
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rt" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">www.ietf.org/rt</a> #116874]<br>
<br>
in the subject line of all future correspondence about this issue. To do so=
,<br>
you may reply to this message.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Thank you,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ietf-draft-submission@ietf.org</a><br>
<br>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------<b=
r>
All,<br>
<br>
Just posted an updated version of the Credit Windowing draft. This draft<br=
>
does *not* include the proposed updated verbiage in the email exchange with=
<br>
Lou Berger - Lou, I had a conversation with Rick Taylor where he talked me<=
br>
out of it... ;-)<br>
<br>
So, this proposes what was referred to as &quot;Option 2&quot; in James Ste=
vens&#39;<br>
email. I believe it addresses the comments from David Wiggins as well.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
Stan<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts<br>
&gt; directories.<br>
&gt; This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: Credit Windowing extension for DLEP<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Author=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 : Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-03.txt<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0: 12<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 : 2016-03-21<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This draft describes an extension to the DLEP protocol to=
 provide a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 credit-windowing scheme analogous to that in RFC5578 for =
destination-<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specific flow control.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-credit-wi=
ndow/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window/</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-=
03" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-manet-credit-window-03</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-manet-credit=
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Subject: [manet] AODVv2 status
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The intent of my review of AODVv2 was to give me better clarity on if the
draft should be killed or was worth pursuing. Unfortunately for me it
didn't do that and it fit nearly perfectly into very small area of not bad
enough to really die but not really good enough to be a standards document
(in it's reviewed state).  I've been pleased with the amount of work
ongoing to address my and others comments and update the draft.  The turn
around has been much more prompt and meaningful than in past iterations.
There will be a WG last call on AODVv2.  That doesn't mean that it will get
sent on but will allow the rest of the WG members to voice there comments
and reviews a final time with the most recent draft (which is much
improved)

I would like to see more on-list discussions from the AODVv2 team.  It's
okay to have separate discussions but the WG members are the ones who will
have to agree that the draft and the decisions in it are the correct ones,
not just the editor team.   If someone has a comment and the editors
convince themselves that it's not an issue it's not really fixed yet.

The flip side of that coin. WG members we can help make this a good draft
by providing meaningful and helpful comments. Remember that this is a WG
document not the editors document.

Justin

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The intent of my review of AODVv2 was to give me bett=
er clarity on if the draft should be killed or was worth pursuing. Unfortun=
ately for me it didn&#39;t do that and it fit nearly perfectly into very sm=
all area of not bad enough to really die but not really good enough to be a=
 standards document (in it&#39;s reviewed state).=C2=A0 I&#39;ve been pleas=
ed with the amount of work ongoing to address my and others comments and up=
date the draft.=C2=A0 The turn around has been much more prompt and meaning=
ful than in past iterations.=C2=A0 There will be a WG last call on AODVv2.=
=C2=A0 That doesn&#39;t mean that it will get sent on but will allow the re=
st of the WG members to voice there comments and reviews a final time with =
the most recent draft (which is much improved) <br><br>I would like to see =
more on-list discussions from the AODVv2 team.=C2=A0 It&#39;s okay to have =
separate discussions but the WG members are the ones who will have to agree=
 that the draft and the decisions in it are the correct ones, not just the =
editor team.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If someone has a comment and the editors convince =
themselves that it&#39;s not an issue it&#39;s not really fixed yet.<br><br=
>The flip side of that coin. WG members we can help make this a good draft =
by providing meaningful and helpful comments. Remember that this is a WG do=
cument not the editors document.<br><br></div><div>Justin<br></div></div>

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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>
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Responses inline.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Lotte Steenbrink <
lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> Hello Justin,
> thank you very much for your thorough and helpful review. We've adopted
> most of your editorial changes and are currently mulling over the larger
> ones.
> Some questions & comments for clarification:
>
> From  2. Terminology:
> ------------------------------------
>
>    Local Route
>       An entry in the Local Route Set. (Local Route Set should have an
> entry, something simple and pointing to the section JWD)
> (Later in the document LocalRoute is used pick one JWD)
>
> LocalRoutes are not the same as the Local Route set, as they're actually
> entries of the Set, which is explained in section 4.5.  Local Route Set.
> Since LocalRoute is used before its explanation (in the     RERR (Route
> Error) definition of section 2), I can see how this is confusing. If my
> co-authors don't protest, I guess we can just eliminate that mention by
> changing "a valid LocalRoute" to "a valid route". Would that resolve this
> issue?
>
> JWD: This was mostly about introduction of the terms and the difference
between Local Route Set having a space between "Local" and "Route" and an
entry being a LocalRoute with no space.  I'm happy with just adding a
reference to the section in which the Local Route Set is defined the first
time the term is used.

>
> From  3.  Applicability Statement:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>  (This should go in the intro JWD)
>
> Which paragraph(s) are you referring to here?
>
JWD: The deleted text as seen in the diff.

Although AODVv2 is closely related to AODV [RFC3561], and shares some
   features of DSR [RFC4728], AODVv2 is not interoperable with either of
   those protocols.

   The routing algorithm in AODVv2 MAY be operated at layers other than
   the network layer, using layer-appropriate addresses.

The diff also shows that I moved/edited it to right after the (we jumped
right in here) comment.


> From  4.5.  Local Route Set:
> ------------------------------------------
>
> (I=E2=80=99m assuming this is here to hint at the possibility of a unifie=
d router
> with multiple routing protocols playing nicely together JWD)
>
> Yup. Should we be more explicit there?
>
> JWD: Yes.  Don't make it complicated just mention that other routing
protocols may also be operating on the same device and it may be a better
approach in these cases.


> (I noticed that Unconfirmed is the only state that uses Route Request
> message instead of route message, is that intended?  Can unconfirmed rout=
e
> state only be reached through Route Request messages? JWD)
>
> Yes. Until a route learned through a RREQ is validated by a RREP/RREP_Ack
> exchange, it is marked as unconfirmed (so that it can't erroneously be us=
ed
> until we know it is useful)
>
> JWD: My point was that I had to infer this add a bit making this explicit
and things are much easier for the reader.

>
> (this seems like an entry that would always be full 1s on a route request
> if true that should be stated to make things more clear JWD)
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, I'm assuming that
> prefixlength =3D=3D address length with RREQs?
>
> JWD: Yes but even more forceful.  Unless you plan on allowing route
requests for networks prefixlengths (which I strongly discourage), full
prefixlengths for RREQs MUST be used.

>
> From 4.6.  Multicast Route Message Table:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (would this ever be in a RREQ? If no then I suggest using words similar t=
o
> =E2=80=9Cif RteMsg is an RREP JWD)
>
> It would. RREQs can include the last known sequence number associated wit=
h
> TargSeqNum. see 7.1.1.  RREQ Generation:
>
>    6.  For TargSeqNum:
>
>        *  If an Invalid route exists in the Local Route Set matching
>           TargAddr using longest prefix matching and has a valid
>           sequence number, set TargSeqNum :=3D LocalRoute.SeqNum.
>
> JWD: Okay.

>From 5.  Metrics:
> -----------------------
>
> AODVv2 enables the use of multiple metric types.  Each route
> discovery attempt indicates the metric type which is requested for
> the route.  Only one metric type may be used in each route discovery
> attempt.   (Already said this no need to say it again. JWD)
>
> I don't quite understand this one=E2=80=93 with the exception of =E2=80=
=9COnly one metric
> type may be used in each route discovery attempt=E2=80=9D, yes,
> the rest of the information in this paragraph may be puzzled together
> using bits and pieces spread across the document=E2=80=93 but previous cr=
iticism
> (also from me) has been that this is very confusing, tiresome and
> error-prone... Or did I misunderstand your comment here?
>
> JWD: I deleted:
However, routes to a single destination might be requested
   and created in the Local Route Set for multiple metric types.  The
   decision of which of these routes to install in the Routing
   Information Base to use for forwarding is outside the scope of
   AODVv2.

>From 6.1.  Initialization:
> -------------------------------
>
> Until MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME after its sequence number is reset, the
> router SHOULD NOT create RREQ or RREP messages.
> (Just to be clear one MUST wait 5 mins before starting to request any
> route without a persistent store of the seq num, yes? JWD)
>
> Yes... That mini paragraph is a bit redundant & contradictory, isn't it?
> I've taken it out and the "must" in "must wait for MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME
> before it creates any messages" was changed to a MUST.
>
> JWD: Good

> From 6.2.  Next Hop Monitoring:
> ------------------------------------------
>
> (I can=E2=80=99t see how the above would be helpful at all JWD)
>
> I'm assuming that "the above" refers to the text you've deleted, not the
> general idea of leveraging external mechanisms to monitor connectivity,
> correct?
>
> JWD: Yes.

>
> From 6.6.  Route Discovery, Retries and Buffering:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> (is there some table that lists routes that are being waited on? JWD)
>
> Currently not, we're reshuffling things in order to make it more clear ho=
w
> to do all of that.
>
> JWD: Looking forward to seeing that.

>
> From 6.7.  Processing Received Route Information
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> (MAY not MUST? Why wouldn=E2=80=99t one update it according to section 6.=
7.2? JWD)
>
> No idea. This is a MUST now.
>
>
JWD: Good

>
> From 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route Information:
> --------------------------------------------------------
>
> (does processing stop here?  It seems like it hsould be that isn=E2=80=99=
t stated.
> JWD)
>
> It does, in both instances. Since the if statements following those
> paragraphs wouldn't match, there are nor no further processing instructio=
ns
> for the loop-causing AdvRte, essentially terminating the processing
> procedure. This pattern is employed in different places across the
> document; if that's desired by the WG I can add "Stop processing AdvRte" =
or
> something similar.
>
> JWD: I think an explicit "Stop processing AdvRte" (or whatever applicable
message) would add clarity as there may be some more complicated steps that
don't stop right away.

>
> From 6.7.2.  Applying Route Updates:
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> (we seem to be missing when the Route Information Base should be updated
> based on the new Local Route Set.  JWD)
>
> 4.5.  Local Route Set says:
>
>    When the Local Route State is stored separately from the Routing
>    Information Base, routes are added to the Routing Information Base
>    when LocalRoute.State is valid (set to Active or Idle), and removed
>    from the Routing Information Base LocalRoute.State becomes Invalid.
>
>
> To me, the connection to the RIB is more of an issue connected to the
> general architecture of the Local Route Set rather than the nitty gritty =
of
> detailed update instructions, so I think that section 4.5 is the right
> place for this information...
>
> JWD I see you're point. A reminder here or reference to 4.5 would be
helpful.


> From 6.9.1.  Local Route State Changes:
> ------------------------------------------------------
>
> (it=E2=80=99s not clear to me how the RERR=E2=80=99s are identified consi=
der rewording to
> make it more clear. JWD)
>
> I'm not quite sure what' s unclear here=E2=80=93 would something like
>
>    o  If a Route Error (RERR) message reporting the route as broken is
> received,
>       either from LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a Router
>       Client address, LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to
>       Invalid.
>
> improve things?
>
> JWD: Something like....
If a Route Error (RERR) message containing a route, matching a LocalRoute
is received, either from LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a
Router
      Client address, the matching LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set
to Invalid.

is close but what specifically in a RERR message matches what specifically
to a LocalRoute to give a match.

(Shouldn=E2=80=99t they also be removed from the Route Information Base? JW=
D)
>
> No=E2=80=93 Unconfirmed routes can't be used for forwarding, and therefor=
e
> shouldn't be in the RIB in the first place.
>
> JWD yep.


> 7.1.1.  RREQ Generation:
> ----------------------------------
>
> (perhaps I=E2=80=99m missing a table or something but I don=E2=80=99t rem=
ember any RREQ
> table or list being described which i can check if a RREQ has been recent=
ly
> sent with associated timers. If there is such a table then it should be
> mentioned here. If there isn=E2=80=99t aon there should be. JWD!)
>
> The table in question is the Multicast Route Message Table and you're
> absolutely right=E2=80=93 that should be stated explicitly.  We've done s=
o now.
>
> JWD: good.

>
> 7.2.3.  RREP Regeneration:
> --------------------------------------
>
> (This seems like a bad idea to do on the reverse path. It would be a good
> way to attack a network Forward RREQ and drop all RREP. JWD)
>
> Wouldn't this attack be possible no matter if we allow RREPs to be droppe=
d
> or not? What am I missing here?
>
> JWD: It would be operating correctly as specified but would be hurting th=
e
network if a router would send all RREQ messages but drop all RREP
messages. They shouldn't regenerate RREP AND RREQ messages if they aren't
willing to forward.


> 7.4.2.  RERR Reception:
> ---------------------------------
>
> (it=E2=80=99s not clear to me what the point of this invalid route is. It=
 doesn=E2=80=99t
> get used and doesn=E2=80=99t remove any existing routes. JWD)
>
> The point of that invalid route is to keep the Sequence Number.  One poin=
t
> of keeping Sequence Numbers is to avoid processing stale messages that
> might be received after long queuing delays.
>
> JWD: It would be useful to have simple statement pointing this out.
Invalid routes are retained to avoid processing stale messages.

(How do we check? It=E2=80=99s not at all clear how this is done. JWD! )
>
> The word "check" perhaps is misleading, as the check has already taken
> place a few paragraphs above.
> I've reworded the paragraph in question to:
>
>    3.  If there are previously Active LocalRoutes that MUST be reported,
>        as identified in step 2.:
>
>        *  Regenerate the RERR as detailed in Section 7.4.3.
>
> , does that resolve the issue?
>
> JWD: That helps yes.  My confusion actually came from a bit further up.

If any of the above are false, a matching LocalRoute MUST NOT be
       made Invalid and the unreachable address MUST NOT be advertised
       in a regenerated RERR.
If all of the above are true, the LocalRoute is no longer valid.

change to...
If any of the above are false the address does not match a LocalRoute and
MUST NOT be processed or regenerated in a RERR.
If all of the above are true, the LocalRoute which matches the address is
no longer valid.

JWD: this is actually a really big change in terms of readability and
understanding IMO.  Please go back and check the language of RREQ and RREP
in the "to process or not to process sections" and see if the language can
be updated in a similar way.  The key part is the address along with the
checks (seqno/metric/previous hop) then matches a LocalRoute with
attributes. Refer to addresses in the message and matching LocalRoutes only
after the checks pass otherwise it should just be an ignored address.


> 7.4.3.  RERR Regeneration:
> -------------------------------------
>
> (it=E2=80=99s not clear how we know which localroutes need to be reported=
 JWD!
>
> again, missing reference here, I've changed that to
>
>    2.  For each LocalRoute that needs to be reported as identified in
>        Section 7.4.1:
>
> , is that better?
>
> JWD: yep

>
> Kind regards,
> Lotte Steenbrink
>
> Thanks for the comments.

Justin

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Responses inline.<br><br><=
/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 8, 2=
016 at 4:37 PM, Lotte Steenbrink <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lo=
tte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" target=3D"_blank">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.d=
e</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Hello Justin,<div>thank you very much=
 for your thorough and helpful review. We&#39;ve adopted most of your edito=
rial changes and are currently mulling over the larger ones.</div><div>Some=
 questions &amp; comments for clarification:</div><div><br></div><div>From =
=C2=A02. Terminology:</div><div>------------------------------------</div><=
div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Local Route</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 An entry in the Local Route Set. (Local Route Set should have an ent=
ry, something simple and pointing to the section JWD)</div><div>(Later in t=
he document LocalRoute is used pick one JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div=
>LocalRoutes are not the same as the Local Route set, as they&#39;re actual=
ly entries of the Set, which is explained in section 4.5.=C2=A0 Local Route=
 Set. Since LocalRoute is used before its explanation (in the =C2=A0=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0RERR (Route Error) definition of section 2), I can see how this is co=
nfusing. If my co-authors don&#39;t protest, I guess we can just eliminate =
that mention by changing &quot;a valid LocalRoute&quot; to &quot;a valid ro=
ute&quot;. Would that resolve this issue?<br><br></div></div></blockquote><=
div>JWD: This was mostly about introduction of the terms and the difference=
 between Local Route Set having a space between &quot;Local&quot; and &quot=
;Route&quot; and an entry being a LocalRoute with no space.=C2=A0 I&#39;m h=
appy with just adding a reference to the section in which the Local Route S=
et is defined the first time the term is used.<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><br><d=
iv><div>From =C2=A03.=C2=A0 Applicability Statement:</div><div>------------=
--------------------------------------</div></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0(This should go in the intro JWD)</div><div><br></div><div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word">Which paragraph(s) are you referring to here?<div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: The deleted text as seen in the diff.=C2=
=A0 <br><br>Although AODVv2 is closely related to AODV [RFC3561], and share=
s some<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 features of DSR [RFC4728], AODVv2 is not interoperab=
le with either of<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 those protocols.<br><br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 The =
routing algorithm in AODVv2 MAY be operated at layers other than<br>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 the network layer, using layer-appropriate addresses.<br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>The diff also shows that I moved/edited it to right after th=
e (we jumped right in here) comment.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><=
div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>From =C2=A04.5.=C2=A0 Local Route S=
et:</div><div>------------------------------------------</div><div><br></di=
v><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(I=E2=80=99m assuming t=
his is here to hint at the possibility of a unified router with multiple ro=
uting protocols playing nicely together JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Yup. =
Should we be more explicit there?</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div>JWD: Yes.=C2=A0 Don&#39;t make it complicated just mention that ot=
her routing protocols may also be operating on the same device and it may b=
e a better approach in these cases.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px soli=
d rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><span style=3D"white-spac=
e:pre-wrap">	</span>(I noticed that Unconfirmed is the only state that uses=
 Route Request message instead of route message, is that intended?=C2=A0 Ca=
n unconfirmed route state only be reached through Route Request messages? J=
WD)</div><div><br></div><div>Yes. Until a route learned through a RREQ is v=
alidated by a RREP/RREP_Ack exchange, it is marked as unconfirmed (so that =
it can&#39;t erroneously be used until we know it is useful)</div><div><br>=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: My point was that I had to infer t=
his add a bit making this explicit and things are much easier for the reade=
r. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><d=
iv><br></div><div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(this s=
eems like an entry that would always be full 1s on a route request if true =
that should be stated to make things more clear JWD)</div></div><div><br></=
div><div>I&#39;m not sure I understand what you mean here, I&#39;m assuming=
 that prefixlength =3D=3D address length with RREQs?</div><div><br></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: Yes but even more forceful.=C2=A0 Unless y=
ou plan on allowing route requests for networks prefixlengths (which I stro=
ngly discourage), full prefixlengths for RREQs MUST be used. <br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><br></div><div>F=
rom 4.6.=C2=A0 Multicast Route Message Table:</div><div>-------------------=
--------------------------------------------</div><div><br></div><div><span=
 style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(would this ever be in a RREQ?  If =
no then I suggest using words similar to =E2=80=9Cif RteMsg is an RREP JWD)=
</div>=C2=A0<div>It would. RREQs can include the last known sequence number=
 associated with TargSeqNum. see=C2=A07.1.1.=C2=A0 RREQ Generation:</div><d=
iv><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A06.=C2=A0 For TargSeqNum:</div><div><br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0If an Invalid route exists in=
 the Local Route Set matching</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
TargAddr using longest prefix matching and has a valid</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 sequence number, set TargSeqNum :=3D LocalRoute.Se=
qNum.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: Okay.<br=
><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"=
word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><=
div><div>From 5.=C2=A0 Metrics:</div><div>-----------------------</div></di=
v><div><br></div><div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>AOD=
Vv2 enables the use of multiple metric types.=C2=A0 Each route</div><div><s=
pan style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>discovery attempt indicates the =
metric type which is requested for</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre=
-wrap">	</span>the route.=C2=A0 Only one metric type may be used in each ro=
ute discovery</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>attemp=
t. =C2=A0 (Already said this no need to say it again. JWD)</div></div><div>=
<br></div><div>I don&#39;t quite understand this one=E2=80=93 with the exce=
ption of =E2=80=9COnly one metric type may be used in each route discovery =
attempt=E2=80=9D, yes,</div><div>the rest of the information in this paragr=
aph may be puzzled together using bits and pieces spread across the documen=
t=E2=80=93 but previous criticism</div><div>(also from me) has been that th=
is is very confusing, tiresome and error-prone... Or did I misunderstand yo=
ur comment here?</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JW=
D: I deleted:<br>However, routes to a single destination might be requested=
<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 and created in the Local Route Set for multiple metric typ=
es.=C2=A0 The<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 decision of which of these routes to install =
in the Routing<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 Information Base to use for forwarding is ou=
tside the scope of<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0 AODVv2.<br><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div>From=C2=A06.1.=C2=A0 Ini=
tialization:</div><div>-------------------------------</div><div><br></div>=
<div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Until MAX_SEQNUM_LIF=
ETIME after its sequence number is reset, the</div><div><span style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">	</span>router SHOULD NOT create RREQ or RREP messages.</=
div></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(Just to be cle=
ar one MUST wait 5 mins before starting to request any route without a pers=
istent store of the seq num, yes? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Yes... That=
 mini paragraph is a bit redundant &amp; contradictory, isn&#39;t it? I&#39=
;ve taken it out and the &quot;must&quot; in &quot;must wait for MAX_SEQNUM=
_LIFETIME before it creates any messages&quot; was changed to a MUST.</div>=
<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: Good <br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div>From 6.2.=
=C2=A0 Next Hop Monitoring:</div><div>-------------------------------------=
-----</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span=
>(I can=E2=80=99t see how the above would be helpful at all JWD)</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I&#39;m assuming that &quot;the above&quot; refers to the te=
xt you&#39;ve deleted, not the general idea of leveraging external mechanis=
ms to monitor connectivity, correct?</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div>JWD: Yes. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddi=
ng-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div><div><br></div><div>From=C2=A06.6.=C2=A0 Route Discovery, Re=
tries and Buffering:</div><div>--------------------------------------------=
----------------------</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:=
pre-wrap">	</span>(is there some table that lists routes that are being wai=
ted on? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Currently not, we&#39;re reshuffling =
things in order to make it more clear how to do all of that.</div><div><br>=
</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: Looking forward to seeing th=
at. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br=
></div><div><div>From 6.7.=C2=A0 Processing Received Route Information</div=
><div>--------------------------------------------------------</div></div><=
div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(MAY not MU=
ST? Why wouldn=E2=80=99t one update it according to section 6.7.2? JWD)</di=
v><div><br></div><div>No idea. This is a MUST now.</div>=C2=A0<br></div></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div>JWD: Good <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"wor=
d-wrap:break-word"><div><div><br></div><div>From 6.7.1.=C2=A0 Evaluating Ro=
ute Information:</div><div>------------------------------------------------=
--------</div><div><br></div><div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"=
>	</span>(does processing stop here?=C2=A0 It seems like it hsould be that =
isn=E2=80=99t stated. JWD)</div></div><div><br></div><div>It does, in both =
instances. Since the if statements following those paragraphs wouldn&#39;t =
match, there are nor no further processing instructions for the loop-causin=
g AdvRte, essentially terminating the processing procedure. This pattern is=
 employed in different places across the document; if that&#39;s desired by=
 the WG I can add &quot;Stop processing AdvRte&quot; or something similar.<=
/div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: I think an exp=
licit &quot;Stop processing AdvRte&quot; (or whatever applicable message) w=
ould add clarity as there may be some more complicated steps that don&#39;t=
 stop right away.<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><=
div><div></div><div><br></div><div>From=C2=A06.7.2.=C2=A0 Applying Route Up=
dates:</div><div>--------------------------------------------------</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(we seem to =
be missing when the Route Information Base should be updated based on the n=
ew Local Route Set.=C2=A0 JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>4.5.=C2=A0 Local Ro=
ute Set says:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-=
top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   When the Local Route State is stored separate=
ly from the Routing
   Information Base, routes are added to the Routing Information Base
   when LocalRoute.State is valid (set to Active or Idle), and removed
   from the Routing Information Base LocalRoute.State becomes Invalid.</pre=
></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div>To me, the connect=
ion to the RIB is more of an issue connected to the general architecture of=
 the Local Route Set rather than the nitty gritty of detailed update instru=
ctions, so I think that section 4.5 is the right place for this information=
...</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD I see you&#=
39;re point. A reminder here or reference to 4.5 would be helpful. <br>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"wo=
rd-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><di=
v>From 6.9.1.=C2=A0 Local Route State Changes:</div><div>------------------=
------------------------------------</div><div><br></div><div><div><span st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(it=E2=80=99s not clear to me how the =
RERR=E2=80=99s are identified consider rewording to make it more clear. JWD=
)</div></div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not quite sure what&#39; s unclear=
 here=E2=80=93 would something like=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0If a Route Error (RERR) message reporting the route as br=
oken is received,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 either from LocalRoute.Nex=
tHop, or with PktSource set to a Router</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Clie=
nt address, LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Invalid.</div></div><div><br></div><div>improve things?</div>=
<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: Something like....<=
br>If a Route Error (RERR) message containing a route, matching a LocalRout=
e=C2=A0 is received, either from LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set =
to a Router<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Client address, the matching =
LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to Invalid.=C2=A0 <br></div><div>=
=C2=A0<br></div><div>is close but what specifically in a RERR message match=
es what specifically to a LocalRoute to give a match.=C2=A0 <br><br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div><span st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(Shouldn=E2=80=99t they also be remove=
d from the Route Information Base? JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>No=E2=80=
=93 Unconfirmed routes can&#39;t be used for forwarding, and therefore shou=
ldn&#39;t be in the RIB in the first place.</div><div><br></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote><div>JWD yep.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div>7.1.1.=C2=A0 RREQ Gene=
ration:</div><div>----------------------------------</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(perhaps I=E2=80=99m missin=
g a table or something but I don=E2=80=99t remember any RREQ table or list =
being described which i can check if a RREQ has been recently sent with ass=
ociated timers. If there is such a table then it should be mentioned here. =
If there isn=E2=80=99t aon there should be. JWD!)</div><div><br></div><div>=
The table in question is the Multicast Route Message Table and you&#39;re a=
bsolutely right=E2=80=93 that should be stated explicitly.=C2=A0 We&#39;ve =
done so now.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: g=
ood. <br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>7.2.3.=C2=A0 RREP Regeneration:</div><div>----------=
----------------------------</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">	</span>(This seems like a bad idea to do on the reverse pa=
th.  It would be a good way to attack a network Forward RREQ and drop all R=
REP.  JWD)</div><div><br></div><div>Wouldn&#39;t this attack be possible no=
 matter if we allow RREPs to be dropped or not? What am I missing here?</di=
v><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: It would be opera=
ting correctly as specified but would be hurting the network if a router wo=
uld send all RREQ messages but drop all RREP messages. They shouldn&#39;t r=
egenerate RREP AND RREQ messages if they aren&#39;t willing to forward.<br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div>=
<div></div><div>7.4.2.=C2=A0 RERR Reception:</div><div>--------------------=
-------------</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"=
>	</span>(it=E2=80=99s not clear to me what the point of this invalid route=
 is. It doesn=E2=80=99t get used and doesn=E2=80=99t remove any existing ro=
utes. JWD)</div>=C2=A0</div><div>The point of that invalid route is to keep=
 the Sequence Number.=C2=A0 One point of keeping Sequence Numbers is to avo=
id processing stale messages that might be received after long queuing dela=
ys.<br><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: It would be =
useful to have simple statement pointing this out.=C2=A0 Invalid routes are=
 retained to avoid processing stale messages. <br><br></div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div=
 style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div><span style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span>(How do we check? It=E2=80=99s not at all clear how =
this is done. JWD! )</div></div><div><br></div><div>The word &quot;check&qu=
ot; perhaps is misleading, as the check has already taken place a few parag=
raphs above.</div><div>I&#39;ve reworded the paragraph in question to:</div=
><div><br></div><div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A03.=C2=A0 If there are previousl=
y Active LocalRoutes that MUST be reported,</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0as identified in step 2.:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0* =C2=A0Regenerate the RERR as detailed in Section 7.4.3.</div></=
div></div><div><br></div><div>, does that resolve the issue?</div><div><br>=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: That helps yes.=C2=A0 My confusion=
 actually came from a bit further up. <br><br>If any of the above are false=
, a matching LocalRoute MUST NOT be<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 made Invalid and the unreachable address MUST NOT be advertised<br>=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in a regenerated RERR.<br>If all of the abov=
e are true, the LocalRoute is no longer valid.<br><br></div><div>change to.=
..<br></div><div>If any of the above are false the address does not match a=
 LocalRoute and MUST NOT be processed or regenerated in a RERR.<br></div><d=
iv>If all of the above are true, the LocalRoute which matches the address i=
s no longer valid.<br></div><div><br></div><div>JWD: this is actually a rea=
lly big change in terms of readability and understanding IMO.=C2=A0 Please =
go back and check the language of RREQ and RREP in the &quot;to process or =
not to process sections&quot; and see if the language can be updated in a s=
imilar way.=C2=A0 The key part is the address along with the checks (seqno/=
metric/previous hop) then matches a LocalRoute with attributes. Refer to ad=
dresses in the message and matching LocalRoutes only after the checks pass =
otherwise it should just be an ignored address.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l=
eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>7.4.3.=C2=A0 =
RERR Regeneration:</div><div>-------------------------------------</div><di=
v><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>(it=E2=80=99s=
 not clear how we know which localroutes need to be reported JWD!</div><div=
><br></div><div><div>again, missing reference here, I&#39;ve changed that t=
o</div><div><br></div><div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A02.=C2=A0 For each LocalRoute t=
hat needs to be reported as identified in</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Section 7.4.1:</div></div><div><br></div><div>, is that better?</div>=
<div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: yep <br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><div></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Kind regards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><div><br></div></div></div=
></div></blockquote></div>Thanks for the comments.<br><br></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra">Justin <br></div></div></div>

--001a1142e9ec74a0e4052e9ceef9--


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From: Thomas Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 status
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> On 22 Mar 2016, at 06:03, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> The intent of my review of AODVv2 was to give me better clarity on if the d=
raft should be killed or was worth pursuing. Unfortunately for me it didn't d=
o that and it fit nearly perfectly into very small area of not bad enough to=
 really die but not really good enough to be a standards document (in it's r=
eviewed state).  I've been pleased with the amount of work ongoing to addres=
s my and others comments and update the draft.  The turn around has been muc=
h more prompt and meaningful than in past iterations.  There will be a WG la=
st call on AODVv2.  That doesn't mean that it will get sent on but will allo=
w the rest of the WG members to voice there comments and reviews a final tim=
e with the most recent draft (which is much improved)

Given the number of outstanding major issues, considering a WGLC is extremel=
y premature.

Thomas

> I would like to see more on-list discussions from the AODVv2 team.  It's o=
kay to have separate discussions but the WG members are the ones who will ha=
ve to agree that the draft and the decisions in it are the correct ones, not=
 just the editor team.   If someone has a comment and the editors convince t=
hemselves that it's not an issue it's not really fixed yet.
>=20
> The flip side of that coin. WG members we can help make this a good draft b=
y providing meaningful and helpful comments. Remember that this is a WG docu=
ment not the editors document.
>=20
> Justin
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "MATTY, Steven" <steven.matty@airbus.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt
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Thanks Steve,=0A=
=0A=
Comments inline...=0A=
=0A=
On 21/03/16 18:10, MATTY, Steven wrote:=0A=
> A couple of nits (sorry!) :=0A=
=0A=
Not your fault!=0A=
=0A=
>=0A=
> 9.20 - Missing parenthesis around Section 4.3.1. in final para=0A=
=0A=
Actually I've just found a couple of these, replaced with ", see Section =
=0A=
XXX"=0A=
=0A=
> 12.1 - Dynamic Link Event Protocol should be Dynamic Link Exchange Protoc=
ol=0A=
=0A=
Doh!=0A=
=0A=
> 12.5- 132 is listed twice. I think the range for "Specification Required"=
 should be 133 - 239=0A=
=0A=
Yes, that's the problem with having these values in 2 tables.  Fixed=0A=
=0A=
> 12.8 (very minor) "a IPv4" and "a IPv6" -> "an IPv4" and "an IPv6"=0A=
=0A=
I'm not sure, you and I (as Brits) would agree, not sure how the rest of =
=0A=
the WG feel.=0A=
=0A=
I will be holding off an uplift to let others have a read, and wait for =0A=
feedback on credit-windowing as well.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


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--001a1141d074dbf4b9052ea4707e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Rick Taylor <
rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com> wrote:

> Thanks Steve,
>
> Comments inline...
>
> On 21/03/16 18:10, MATTY, Steven wrote:
> > A couple of nits (sorry!) :
>
> Not your fault!
>
> >
> > 9.20 - Missing parenthesis around Section 4.3.1. in final para
>
> Actually I've just found a couple of these, replaced with ", see Section
> XXX"
>
> > 12.1 - Dynamic Link Event Protocol should be Dynamic Link Exchange
> Protocol
>
> Doh!
>
> > 12.5- 132 is listed twice. I think the range for "Specification
> Required" should be 133 - 239
>
> Yes, that's the problem with having these values in 2 tables.  Fixed
>
> > 12.8 (very minor) "a IPv4" and "a IPv6" -> "an IPv4" and "an IPv6"
>
> I'm not sure, you and I (as Brits) would agree, not sure how the rest of
> the WG feel.
>
> I will be holding off an uplift to let others have a read, and wait for
> feedback on credit-windowing as well.
>

Just an FYI - this is stuff we can fix as publication progresses. There are
going to be nits along the way...

Regards,
Stan



>
> Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

--001a1141d074dbf4b9052ea4707e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Rick Taylor <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com" target=3D"_blank">rick@tropi=
calstormsoftware.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">Thanks Steve,<br>
<br>
Comments inline...<br>
<br>
On 21/03/16 18:10, MATTY, Steven wrote:<br>
&gt; A couple of nits (sorry!) :<br>
<br>
Not your fault!<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 9.20 - Missing parenthesis around Section 4.3.1. in final para<br>
<br>
Actually I&#39;ve just found a couple of these, replaced with &quot;, see S=
ection<br>
XXX&quot;<br>
<br>
&gt; 12.1 - Dynamic Link Event Protocol should be Dynamic Link Exchange Pro=
tocol<br>
<br>
Doh!<br>
<br>
&gt; 12.5- 132 is listed twice. I think the range for &quot;Specification R=
equired&quot; should be 133 - 239<br>
<br>
Yes, that&#39;s the problem with having these values in 2 tables.=C2=A0 Fix=
ed<br>
<br>
&gt; 12.8 (very minor) &quot;a IPv4&quot; and &quot;a IPv6&quot; -&gt; &quo=
t;an IPv4&quot; and &quot;an IPv6&quot;<br>
<br>
I&#39;m not sure, you and I (as Brits) would agree, not sure how the rest o=
f<br>
the WG feel.<br>
<br>
I will be holding off an uplift to let others have a read, and wait for<br>
feedback on credit-windowing as well.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>J=
ust an FYI - this is stuff we can fix as publication progresses. There are =
going to be nits along the way...=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</=
div><div>Stan</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<br>
Rick<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1141d074dbf4b9052ea4707e--


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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
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On 22/03/16 14:58, Stan Ratliff wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:52 AM, Rick Taylor=0A=
> <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com <mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>>=
=0A=
> wrote:=0A=
>=0A=
>     Thanks Steve,=0A=
>=0A=
>     Comments inline...=0A=
>=0A=
>     On 21/03/16 18:10, MATTY, Steven wrote:=0A=
>      > A couple of nits (sorry!) :=0A=
>=0A=
>     Not your fault!=0A=
>=0A=
>      >=0A=
>      > 9.20 - Missing parenthesis around Section 4.3.1. in final para=0A=
>=0A=
>     Actually I've just found a couple of these, replaced with ", see Sect=
ion=0A=
>     XXX"=0A=
>=0A=
>      > 12.1 - Dynamic Link Event Protocol should be Dynamic Link=0A=
>     Exchange Protocol=0A=
>=0A=
>     Doh!=0A=
>=0A=
>      > 12.5- 132 is listed twice. I think the range for "Specification=0A=
>     Required" should be 133 - 239=0A=
>=0A=
>     Yes, that's the problem with having these values in 2 tables.  Fixed=
=0A=
>=0A=
>      > 12.8 (very minor) "a IPv4" and "a IPv6" -> "an IPv4" and "an IPv6"=
=0A=
>=0A=
>     I'm not sure, you and I (as Brits) would agree, not sure how the rest=
 of=0A=
>     the WG feel.=0A=
>=0A=
>     I will be holding off an uplift to let others have a read, and wait f=
or=0A=
>     feedback on credit-windowing as well.=0A=
>=0A=
>=0A=
> Just an FYI - this is stuff we can fix as publication progresses. There=
=0A=
> are going to be nits along the way...=0A=
=0A=
I agree, this shouldn't block the document IMHO.=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=


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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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I think "an IP ..." is pretty clear, whether you go by spelling or pronunci=
ation.

We had a trickier case in OLSRv2, where we use "an MPR", because we expect =
that to be read as "an em-pee-arr".

-- =

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
__________________________________________________________________________

T: =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =A0| =A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,=
 Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
Sent: 22 March 2016 14:52
To: MATTY, Steven
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21.txt

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Thanks Steve,

Comments inline...

On 21/03/16 18:10, MATTY, Steven wrote:
> A couple of nits (sorry!) :

Not your fault!

>
> 9.20 - Missing parenthesis around Section 4.3.1. in final para

Actually I've just found a couple of these, replaced with ", see Section XX=
X"

> 12.1 - Dynamic Link Event Protocol should be Dynamic Link Exchange =

> Protocol

Doh!

> 12.5- 132 is listed twice. I think the range for "Specification =

> Required" should be 133 - 239

Yes, that's the problem with having these values in 2 tables.  Fixed

> 12.8 (very minor) "a IPv4" and "a IPv6" -> "an IPv4" and "an IPv6"

I'm not sure, you and I (as Brits) would agree, not sure how the rest of th=
e WG feel.

I will be holding off an uplift to let others have a read, and wait for fee=
dback on credit-windowing as well.

Rick

_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


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--001a1134f182950da5052ea6be21
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Justin,

I agree totally that this document is our group document not only for
editors, and we accepted as a group this draft, so no doubt that the draft
has acceptance by the group and that we need reasonable comments that has
details of problems not just thoughts or questions. The discussion problem
is because it is becoming more idea-discussion not a text-discussion. I
remember that when I was questioning a group draft of multi-topology with
many comments with questions the chair stopped my participation because he
wants clear technical issues/example of fault with advise of suggested
text/deletes.

 I ask all participants to suggest text to solve routing-issues if any, not
just say there is a problem in our draft. I think if we/you find a problem,
you/we need to suggest to fix it by add-text/delete into our-draft. Mostly
in routing we can understand the issue better when we see the suggested
solution or if we get an example of fault.

AB

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 7:03 AM, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:

> The intent of my review of AODVv2 was to give me better clarity on if the
> draft should be killed or was worth pursuing. Unfortunately for me it
> didn't do that and it fit nearly perfectly into very small area of not bad
> enough to really die but not really good enough to be a standards document
> (in it's reviewed state).  I've been pleased with the amount of work
> ongoing to address my and others comments and update the draft.  The turn
> around has been much more prompt and meaningful than in past iterations.
> There will be a WG last call on AODVv2.  That doesn't mean that it will get
> sent on but will allow the rest of the WG members to voice there comments
> and reviews a final time with the most recent draft (which is much
> improved)
>
> I would like to see more on-list discussions from the AODVv2 team.  It's
> okay to have separate discussions but the WG members are the ones who will
> have to agree that the draft and the decisions in it are the correct ones,
> not just the editor team.   If someone has a comment and the editors
> convince themselves that it's not an issue it's not really fixed yet.
>
> The flip side of that coin. WG members we can help make this a good draft
> by providing meaningful and helpful comments. Remember that this is a WG
> document not the editors document.
>
> Justin
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

--001a1134f182950da5052ea6be21
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div>Hi Justin,<br><br></div>I agree totally tha=
t this document is our group document not only for editors, and we accepted=
 as a group this draft, so no doubt that the draft has acceptance by the gr=
oup and that we need reasonable comments that has details of problems not j=
ust thoughts or questions. The discussion problem is because it is becoming=
 more idea-discussion not a text-discussion. I remember that when I was que=
stioning a group draft of multi-topology with many comments with questions =
the chair stopped my participation because he wants clear technical issues/=
example of fault with advise of suggested text/deletes. <br><br></div>=C2=
=A0I ask all participants to suggest text to solve routing-issues if any, n=
ot just say there is a problem in our draft. I think if we/you find a probl=
em, you/we need to suggest to fix it by add-text/delete into our-draft. Mos=
tly in routing we can understand the issue better when we see the suggested=
 solution or if we get an example of fault.<br><br></div>AB<br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at=
 7:03 AM, Justin Dean <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gm=
ail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>The intent of my review =
of AODVv2 was to give me better clarity on if the draft should be killed or=
 was worth pursuing. Unfortunately for me it didn&#39;t do that and it fit =
nearly perfectly into very small area of not bad enough to really die but n=
ot really good enough to be a standards document (in it&#39;s reviewed stat=
e).=C2=A0 I&#39;ve been pleased with the amount of work ongoing to address =
my and others comments and update the draft.=C2=A0 The turn around has been=
 much more prompt and meaningful than in past iterations.=C2=A0 There will =
be a WG last call on AODVv2.=C2=A0 That doesn&#39;t mean that it will get s=
ent on but will allow the rest of the WG members to voice there comments an=
d reviews a final time with the most recent draft (which is much improved) =
<br><br>I would like to see more on-list discussions from the AODVv2 team.=
=C2=A0 It&#39;s okay to have separate discussions but the WG members are th=
e ones who will have to agree that the draft and the decisions in it are th=
e correct ones, not just the editor team.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If someone has a comm=
ent and the editors convince themselves that it&#39;s not an issue it&#39;s=
 not really fixed yet.<br><br>The flip side of that coin. WG members we can=
 help make this a good draft by providing meaningful and helpful comments. =
Remember that this is a WG document not the editors document.<span class=3D=
"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span class=3D=
"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Justin<br></div></font></span></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

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Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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Hi Christopher, hi all,

I=E2=80=99m very happy about the discussion going on in this thread but =
I=E2=80=99m afraid I=E2=80=99ve steered off topic a bit with my remarks =
about the 5444-usage draft=E2=80=93 I was wondering if you=E2=80=99d had =
a chance to review my proposed changes yet and if so, do they make sense =
(and/or what could we do better)? I=E2=80=99d really like to fix this =
issue. :)

Best regards,
Lotte


> Am 08.03.2016 um 12:59 schrieb Christopher Dearlove =
<chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk>:
>=20
> I'm reading this on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it =
better for longer comment.
>=20
> But there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, =
two things in 5444. One is about formats, one is about multiplexing.
>=20
> Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as formats. =
Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general 5444 =
formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to decide what to make it =
do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the formatter, or not =
at all. (Personally I have some inside, some outside.)
>=20
> The other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That =
takes 5444 formatted messages (and  possibly some other things) and =
forms 5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns =
messages as delivered to it (hop count and limit apart of course). =
Otherwise security features in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't =
prevent the multiplexer modifying the message before putting it on the =
wire, that just needs to be reversible. And obvious example is if you =
implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it adds them, =
it also needs to remove them before handing the message to the protocol. =
(You may instead put this in the protocol.)
>=20
> Yes, I think the usage document could gain from adding this. Note, =
that's personal only, my co-authors haven't agreed to that yet. But =
largely because I haven't asked them yet (with one partial exception).
>=20
> The points I think are:
> - Two things in 5444. Format and multiplex.
> - Generic formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation =
optional.
> - Multiplexer must deliver messages as sent (hop exception). But may =
modify reversibly. 7182 example (could implement message level in =
multiplexer, must implement packet level there).
>=20
> --=20
> Christopher Dearlove
> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com <mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>
>=20
> On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink =
<lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de <mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>> =
wrote:
>=20
>> Hello Christopher,
>>=20
>> Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) =
<chris.dearlove@baesystems.com <mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>>:
>>=20
>>> I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments (which =
won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than =
attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at =
the earliest.
>>> =20
>>> But one to kick off.
>>> =20
>>> The architecture mandated by 5498 is that AODVv2 creates messages, =
it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In due course it receives =
messages from there. There are some other details, but that=E2=80=99s =
the most important.
>>> =20
>>> The 5444 multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses =
and so on. It doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets =
(which may contain multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go =
one hop.
>>> =20
>>> There are other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most =
obviously which interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =
=E2=80=9Cplease try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there =
are any additional requests that should be supported, and are not =
incompatible with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good =
opportunity to get those in.
>>> =20
>>> But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D (as a =
whole or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:
>>> =20
>>>    [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple =
protocols.
>>>    An [RFC5444] multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>>    certain message elements to reduce control message overhead.
>>> =20
>>> I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s the =
role of the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from =
addresses and attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole =
message from a protocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that =
I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opinion, though a quite strong one. A =
protocol might apply some sort of specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99=
t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 =
ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove them before the protocol =
gets the packet again.)
>>=20
>> True. If I remember it correctly (Co-Authors, please stop me if I =
don't), what we were trying to say was "The message contents MAY be =
reshuffled during message creation, but please pay attention that some =
things MUST be kept in one message in order to form a coherent AODVv2 =
message." This is especially important for RERR messages, which could =
easily get chopped up into multiple messages if the underlying MTU is =
small.
>>=20
>> If we change that paragraph to
>>=20
>>    [RFC5444 <>] provides a multiplexed transport for multiple =
protocols.
>>    An [RFC5444 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>] implementation =
MAY choose to optimize the content of
>>    certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.
>>   =20
>> and the language of, say,  7.1.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1.3>. =
RREQ Regeneration from
>>=20
>>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>]
>>    message (see Section 8 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8>) =
which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
>>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  =
However,
>>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>>=20
>> to something like
>>=20
>>    This AODVv2 message is used to create a corresponding [RFC5444 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444>]
>>    message (see Section 8 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8>), =
which is handed to the RFC5444 multiplexer
>>    for further processing.
>>    By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message =
to LL-MANET-
>>    Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  =
However,
>>    the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
>>    LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.
>>=20
>> (and the same thing for 7.2.3 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2.3>. =
RREP Regeneration, 6.5 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5>. =
Message Transmission, etc.), would that resolve the issue?
>>=20
>>> =20
>>> This is probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage =
draft. If it gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself =
and the rest of the author team.
>>> =20
>>> So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the =
multiplexer. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always =
better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it does.
>>=20
>> I've always assumed the 5444 message creation process to be part of =
the "RFC5444 component" rather than part of the "AODVv2 component", =
which is why I thought the AODVv2<->RFC5444 interaction that should be =
described clearly was the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message =
creation process what a message looks like (and where it should be =
sent). I've assumed that this is the part where AODVv2 hands over all =
control to 5444, so obviously it wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, =
it would instruct the multiplexer to do so. I wasn't aware that this =
must be stated explicitly.
>>=20
>> I'm not sure if this is a subtlety or a misconception that should be =
clarified in the 5444-usage draft...
>>=20
>> With kind regards,
>> Lotte Steenbrink
>>=20
>>> But unfortunately the draft still has material that contradicts that =
model, which needs to go. In particular (but not only) the first two =
paragraphs of section 6.5. This is an essential change.
>>> =20
>>> --
>>>=20
>>> Christopher Dearlove
>>> Senior Principal Engineer
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=

>>>=20
>>> T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com =
<mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
>>>=20
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great =
Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
>>> www.baesystems.com/ai <http://www.baesystems.com/ai>
>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> ********************************************************************
>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
>>> distribute its contents to any other person.
>>> ********************************************************************
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> manet mailing list
>>> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet>


--Apple-Mail=_B986858E-89E1-477D-9203-54302923649D
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Christopher, hi all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m very happy about the discussion going on in this =
thread but I=E2=80=99m afraid I=E2=80=99ve steered off topic a bit with =
my remarks about the 5444-usage draft=E2=80=93 I was wondering if =
you=E2=80=99d had a chance to review my proposed changes yet and if so, =
do they make sense (and/or what could we do better)? I=E2=80=99d really =
like to fix this issue. :)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Best regards,</div><div class=3D"">Lotte</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
08.03.2016 um 12:59 schrieb Christopher Dearlove &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk" =
class=3D"">chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><div class=3D"">I'm reading this =
on a phone, so I'm going to wait until I can read it better for longer =
comment.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But =
there are, and I think this is a potential source for confusion, two =
things in 5444. One is about formats, one is about =
multiplexing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Formatting (and parsing) isn't defined as a process, but as =
formats. Many people (everyone?) who uses 5444 will create a general =
5444 formatter/parser. That's up to the implementer to decide what to =
make it do, whether to optimise in that formatter, outside the =
formatter, or not at all. (Personally I have some inside, some =
outside.)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
other component is the 5444 multiplexer (and denultiplexer). That takes =
5444 formatted messages (and &nbsp;possibly some other things) and forms =
5444 packets. It is important that the 5444 multiplexer returns messages =
as delivered to it (hop count and limit apart of course). Otherwise =
security features in the protocol may fail. Note that doesn't prevent =
the multiplexer modifying the message before putting it on the wire, =
that just needs to be reversible. And obvious example is if you =
implement 7182 ICVs and TIMESTAMPs in the multiplexer, if it adds them, =
it also needs to remove them before handing the message to the protocol. =
(You may instead put this in the protocol.)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, I think the usage document could =
gain from adding this. Note, that's personal only, my co-authors haven't =
agreed to that yet. But largely because I haven't asked them yet (with =
one partial exception).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The points I think are:</div><div class=3D"">- Two things in =
5444. Format and multiplex.</div><div class=3D"">- Generic =
formatter/parser not required, but recommended. Optimisation =
optional.</div><div class=3D"">- Multiplexer must deliver messages as =
sent (hop exception). But may modify reversibly. 7182 example (could =
implement message level in multiplexer, must implement packet level =
there).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">--&nbsp;<div =
class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove</div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:christopher.dearlove@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">christopher.dearlove@gmail.com</a></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 8 Mar 2016, at 11:09, Lotte Steenbrink =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" =
class=3D"">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DWindows-1252" class=3D"">Hello Christopher,<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am 04.03.2016 um 17:19 =
schrieb Dearlove, Christopher (UK) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" =
class=3D"">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99ve read some of draft -13. I will provide comments =
(which won=E2=80=99t be comprehensive) in bite sized chunks rather than =
attempting anything consolidated. And most can wait until next week at =
the earliest.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">But one to kick off.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The architecture mandated by 5498 is =
that AODVv2 creates messages, it passes them to the 5444 multiplexer. In =
due course it receives messages from there. There are some other =
details, but that=E2=80=99s the most important.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The 5444 =
multiplexer is what handles UDP ports, multicast addresses and so on. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t handle flooding, because its packets (which may contain =
multiple messages, from AODVv2 and elsewhere) only go one hop.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are =
other requests that can be made to the multiplexer, most obviously which =
interface(s) this message is for, but also things like =E2=80=9Cplease =
try to keep these messages together=E2=80=9D. If there are any =
additional requests that should be supported, and are not incompatible =
with the architecture, then the 5444 usage draft is a good opportunity =
to get those in.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">But, looking at the AODVv2 draft, =E2=80=9Cmultiplex=E2=80=9D =
(as a whole or part word) only appears twice, both in the paragraph:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5444] provides a multiplexed transport for =
multiple protocols.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: 'Courier New';" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; An [RFC5444] =
multiplexer MAY choose to optimize the content of<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; certain message elements to reduce control =
message overhead.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think that=E2=80=99s not how I see it, that that=E2=80=99s =
the role of the (subtlely different) 5444 message creation process from =
addresses and attributes. I think the multiplexer itself, given a whole =
message from a protocol shouldn=E2=80=99t be modifying it. Note that =
I=E2=80=99ve expressed that as an opinion, though a quite strong one. A =
protocol might apply some sort of specialised signature, and we can=E2=80=99=
t let the multiplexer destroy that. (The multiplexer might add a 7182 =
ICV and/or timestamp, but it will then remove them before the protocol =
gets the packet again.)</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">True. If I remember it correctly =
(Co-Authors, please stop me if I don't), what we were trying to say was =
"The message contents MAY be reshuffled during message creation, but =
please pay attention that some things MUST be kept in one message in =
order to form a coherent AODVv2 message." This is especially important =
for RERR messages, which could easily get chopped up into multiple =
messages if the underlying MTU is small.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we change that paragraph =
to</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   [<a =
name=3D"ref-RFC5444" id=3D"ref-RFC5444" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>] provides =
a multiplexed transport for multiple protocols.
   An [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>] implementation MAY choose to =
optimize the content of
   certain elements during message creation to reduce control message =
overhead.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   =
</pre></div><div class=3D"">and the language of, say, &nbsp;<a =
class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.1.3" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.1=
.3" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; =
text-decoration: none;">7.1.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  RREQ =
Regeneration&nbsp;</span>from</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message is used to create a =
corresponding [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8" =
class=3D"">Section 8</a>) which is multicast, by default, to LL-MANET-
   Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">to something like</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
page-break-before: always;">   This AODVv2 message is used to create a =
corresponding [<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5444" =
title=3D"&quot;Generalized Mobile Ad Hoc Network (MANET) Packet/Message =
Format&quot;" class=3D"">RFC5444</a>]
   message (see <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-8" =
class=3D"">Section 8</a>), which is handed to the&nbsp;RFC5444 =
multiplexer</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   for =
further processing.</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">  =
 By default, the multiplexer is instructed to multicast the message to =
LL-MANET-</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13px; =
margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; page-break-before: always;">   =
Routers on all interfaces configured for AODVv2 operation.  However,
   the regenerated RREQ can be unicast to the next hop address of the
   LocalRoute toward TargAddr, if known.</pre></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">(and the same thing for&nbsp;<a =
class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-7.2.3" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-7.2=
.3" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; =
text-decoration: none;">7.2.3</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  RREP =
Regeneration</span>,&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-6.5" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5=
" style=3D"font-size: 1em; line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold; =
text-decoration: none;">6.5</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  Message =
Transmission,</span>&nbsp;etc.), would that resolve the issue?</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This is =
probably something that could/should be in the 5444 usage draft. If it =
gets WGLCed as requested, I=E2=80=99ll submit it to myself and the rest =
of the author team.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So there is nothing describing how AODVv2 interacts with the =
multiplexer. That shouldn=E2=80=99t matter (though it=E2=80=99s always =
better to have it) if you assume 5498 applies, as it =
does.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I've always assumed the 5444 message =
creation process to be part of the "RFC5444 component" rather than part =
of the "AODVv2 component", which is why I thought the =
AODVv2&lt;-&gt;RFC5444 interaction that should be described clearly was =
the part where AODVv2 tells the 5444 message creation process what a =
message looks like (and where it should be sent). I've assumed that this =
is the part where AODVv2 hands over all control to 5444, so obviously it =
wouldn't multicast a message *itself*, it would instruct the multiplexer =
to do so. I wasn't aware that this must be stated explicitly.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm not sure if this is =
a subtlety or a misconception that should be clarified in the 5444-usage =
draft...</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">With =
kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Lotte Steenbrink</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""> But unfortunately the =
draft still has material that contradicts that model, which needs to go. =
In particular (but not only) the first two paragraphs of section 6.5. =
This is an essential change.</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-GB" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">--<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(0, 126, 126);" class=3D"">Christopher Dearlove<br =
class=3D"">Senior Principal Engineer<br class=3D"">BAE Systems Applied =
Intelligence Laboratories<br class=3D""></span></b><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(190, 190, 190);" =
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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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A few comments from me inline.

*Loops*
> Just to bring this out: I share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting an=
d
> concurrent statements from the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops pos=
sible=E2=80=9D and
> =E2=80=9CWe need to fix two situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and=
 =E2=80=9Cwe are still
> investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D
>
> I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but
> apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6
>
> Discussions on list are key.  This needs to happen more.


>
> *Intermediate Route Replies, and all of section 10*
> Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvaguely specified extensions=E2=80=
=9D, which is
> incoherent with the intended status indicated for this document.
>
> Specifically, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops above,
> intermediate RREPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for loops.
>
> Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way that
> can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=
=80=9D below, it is
> in the present form of this protocol impossible), etc.
>
> I'm all for removal of vaguely specified extensions.  The use of reduced
relay sets is one of those that should be cut at this time.  Expanding Ring
Multicast could be kept IMO.  It's not much different than the way OLSR
specifies that MPR selectors can be chosen in different ways but must cover
all the 2 hop neighbors.  Something as simple as.  If limited scope RREQ
are sent each successive RREQ for the same address MUST at least double the
hop count.

>
> *Forwarding-vs-regeneration*
> Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control
> messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new
> message with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and
> transmitted.
>
> I have thought some more on this (& read some of the exchanges on the lis=
t
> on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others), and I am convinced that this
> is not the right way to go, *at least* for the following reasons:
>
>
> o *It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5444 message
> header useless.*
> This would not be bad if the functionality offered by those fields was no=
t
> useful
> =E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope limited flooding (expandin=
g ring
> search, and
> such) which may be of interest, and which require hop-limit.
> A hop-count field may also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of=
 overhead)
> additional piece
> of information to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.
>
> The only practical solution would be to re-introduce these functions by
> way of inserting a
> MessageTLV =E2=80=94 which (i) is not specified in this document, and (ii=
) which
> would just
> serve to render messages bigger than strictly needed.
>
> Scope limited flooding  does seem to be a necessary requirement, if for n=
o
> other reason than to prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculating foreve=
r in the
> network=E2=80=9D.
>
> JWD: I partly disagree that it can't be used for this purpose.  RFC5444
specifies:
 <msg-hop-limit> is omitted if the mhashoplimit flag is cleared

      '0'); otherwise, is an 8-bit unsigned integer field that can
      contain the maximum number of hops that the message should be
      further transmitted.


which in retrospect was a mistake as 5444 was meant to be a format and not
a protocol specification as we mentioned many times.  No other  protocol
message is going to forward these messages as AODVv2 "owns" the message
type so I don't see an issue with bending the terms in 5444 to allow this
forwarding of "information"  The way multiplexers work messages can get
torn apart and sent back out in a different way.  My OLSRv2 with another
version will likely do just that.

o *It makes end-to-end authentication unnecessarily hard.*
> I think Chris called this out already, but it bears repeating: S generate=
s
> a message
> (say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated over the content of the
> message.
> For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the message has to be
> exactly
> the same =E2=80=94 not just in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as wha=
t was generated.
>
> =E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D m=
essages means, that the
> intermediate
> router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose a different stru=
cture (e.g.,
> include TLVs
> in a different order).
>
> The proposal from
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00
> is to add constraints on (i) the set of elements to include in a signatur=
e
> and (ii) the
> order of these elements.
>
> One problem with that approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV=
,
> or an
> Address TLV, to a message, then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=
=9D by the proposed
> e2esec TLV.
> Rather for *each* extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=
=9D clause needs to
> be done.
>
> I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone to errors =E2=80=94 and=
 add entropy to
> the process
> of designing protocol extensions. The alternative, a message being
> generated by the
> source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, for example) would allow ICV
> TLVs
> (even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for covering a message
> and
> extensions.
>
> =E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will change on each hop=
=E2=80=9D, you may
> say?
> Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply zero out the value
> of that TLV when
> generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for
> hop-by-hop
> authentication, if needed (but, see below).
>
> o *It prevents the use of more clever/advanced signature schemes/ICVs*
> Aggregate signature algorithms (
> https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/papers/aggsurvey.pdf)
> exist, and an interesting use-case can be found in also reactive
> protocols, allowing verifying
> not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but also the intermediaries (a=
gain, with the
> appropriate =E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D
> discussed above, or something smarter).
> Regeneration of messages, rather than forwarding, renders that impossible
> (or, if used,
> updating to
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00)
>
> JWD: this is IMO the big issue.


> There are other reasons, but the above are those that jump at me as
> immediate show-stoppers.
>
> I do honestly not see what possible benefit there is from =E2=80=9Cregene=
ration=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94
> but I see very clear inconveniences, and security is not the least of
> these. Insisting on =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires development o=
f =E2=80=9Cnon-general
> workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out above.
>
> *Security Considerations*
> This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the
> process we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security
> from the SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183.
> The bottom line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183  equiva=
lent=E2=80=9D,
> either as part of the main document, or as an independent document.
> currently, that is not the case.
>
> A minima, looking at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration from R=
FC7183
> might be aw good idea, as that was the most recent that went through the
> SEC AD. Regardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=
=80=9D security
> mechanism most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST imp=
lement,
> SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable implem=
entations.
>
> As an example, both [RFC6130] and [RFC7181] set out that that:
>
>       On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the
>       message is invalid for processing by this router
>
> and then proceed to give a number of conditions that, each, will lead to =
a
> rejection of the message as "badly formed and therefore invalid for
> processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 then amended. That gav=
e a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for
> RFC7183 for inserting =E2=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message gener=
ation.
>
> If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly into
> the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and slow
> down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.
>
> Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what ICVs,
> Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.
>
> For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* and *not*
> regenerated), this could be one option:
>
> o When a RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message TLV, which
> is calculated <this way>
>  =E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here)
>
> o When a RREQ, RREP message is transmitted  (by the source, or forwarded
> by an intermediary)
> in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is
> calculated <this way> =E2=80=A6
>
> o When an RFC5444 packet is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV <this
> way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate,
> discard the contained messages.
>
> o When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an
> intermediary), validate the ICV Message TLV
> <this way> and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t validate, discard the message, =
do not
> process, do not forward.
>
> This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=
=9D transitive
> trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust discussed previously, a=
nd is enabled by
> the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit described previously.
>
> *Metrics*
> I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am
> escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference =
to
> RFC6551?
>
>    [RFC6551]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,
>               and D. Barthel, "Routing Metrics Used for Path Calculation
>               in Low-Power and Lossy Networks", RFC 6551 <https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/rfc6551>, DOI 10.17487/
>               RFC6551 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551>, March 2012,
>               <http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551>.
>
>
>
> Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL WG. And the abstract to RFC655=
1
> explicitly reads:
>
>    Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
>    compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
>    specification of new routing metrics and constraints.
>
> Which explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are* not applicable in
> ad hoc networks* =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since th=
e
> publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?
>
>  I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?) the same metric
> type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?
>
> Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.
>
> *RFC6621 (SMF) usage*
> As late as earlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the
> mailing list. I understand that the authors are set on using flooding
> reduction as part of RREQ distribution. If that is the case, then this
> protocol MUST specify that flooding reduction.
>
> Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC6621=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chri=
s point out in an email
> earlier to the list:
>
> The network does not and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression
> to AODVv2. This isn't a hard concept, but seems to keep having to be said=
.
> AODVv2 messages are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel one ho=
p.
> That doesn't allow for suppression. Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new
> messages each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.
>
>
> And quoting an email from myself:
>
> If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainly is
> protocol X's responsibility to  specify the flooding operation (or, at
> least, the requirements to the flooding operation ) for correct functioni=
ng
> of protocol X.
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree of
> configuration (can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different relay =
set
> selection algorithms, as that may produce a disconnected flooding domain)=
.
>
> In other words, what the authors propose in
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00 is
> insufficient.
>
> JWD: I agree references to RFC6621 should be removed and use of reduced
relay sets should be work for an extension draft.  All that's is needed to
to allow AODVv2 routers to not regenerate RREQ which is already the case.


> *Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621*
> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same
> address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear t=
o me that
> a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperati=
ng
> conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will it work  if router =
A and
> router B both have two interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the same
> IP address?)
>
> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of
> the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example -
> calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it
> detects bidirectionality of links.
>
> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =
=E2=80=94
> but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=A6use
> RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints when faced=
 with
> multiple interfaces must be worked out.
>
> JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is to mandate that any
interface which shares an address with another much be bridged.  Then you
really only have a single interface again. Or just say it's not allowed.
Other more complex methods may be possible but we are honestly past time
for that and as Thomas points out there are corner cases that we will
likely miss and its past time for that.


> *Prefixes & Gateways*
> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from
> reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is:
> =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /<12=
8 in IPv6)?
>
> JWD: I believe Lotte answered this in that it's not allowed.  Simple fix.

> o If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single
> router,
> then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the case?
>
> o If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network set of a single
> router,
> and the other half is part of the attached network set of another  single
> router,
> then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
>
> o More generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?
>
> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about multiple
>  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Ct=
he rest of the
> Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I u=
nderstand
> how the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it
> should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix,=
 with
> which it is configured=E2=80=9D).
>
> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far
> far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would =
be
> preferential for the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Interne=
t=E2=80=9D-GW2?
>
> Is this a supported configuration?
> o If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications)
> handled?
> o If not, where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with
> this protocol?
>
>
> The applicability statement says:
>
>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 <https://tool=
s.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
>
>
> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not =
a
> transit network)?
>
> JWD: I'd change it to be configured to perform limited gateway functions
when attached to external networks.

> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94
>
> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten aroun=
d
> to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working thr=
ough the
> document, but those were the ones that came to mind, and which seem
> imperative to resolve.
>
> Best,
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">A few comments from me inline.<br><div class=3D"gmail_extr=
a"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20=
4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wra=
p:break-word"><div><b><u>Loops</u></b></div><div>Just to bring this out: I =
share Chris=E2=80=99 worry about conflicting and concurrent statements from=
 the authors on =E2=80=9CThere are no loops possible=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9C=
We need to fix two situations where loops can occur=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cw=
e are still investigating some loop conditions=E2=80=9D</div><div><br></div=
><div>I particularly worry that this is not a discussion had in public, but=
 apparently in some other forum=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div></div></blockq=
uote><div>Discussions on list are key.=C2=A0 This needs to happen more.</di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v></div><div><br></div><div><div><b><u>Intermediate Route Replies, and all =
of section 10</u></b></div><div>Section 10 contains a set of =E2=80=9Cvague=
ly specified extensions=E2=80=9D, which is incoherent with the intended sta=
tus indicated for this document.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Specificall=
y, and this is not unrelated to the point about loops above, intermediate R=
REPs (section 10.3) are a potential source for loops.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Expanding Ring Multicast (section 10.1) is not documented in a way that=
 can be implemented (and also, see =E2=80=9CForwarding-vs-regeneration=E2=
=80=9D below, it is in the present form of this protocol impossible), etc.<=
/div></div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>I&#39;m all for removal o=
f vaguely specified extensions.=C2=A0 The use of reduced relay sets is one =
of those that should be cut at this time.=C2=A0 Expanding Ring Multicast co=
uld be kept IMO.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not much different than the way OLSR specif=
ies that MPR selectors can be chosen in different ways but must cover all t=
he 2 hop neighbors.=C2=A0 Something as simple as.=C2=A0 If limited scope RR=
EQ are sent each successive RREQ for the same address MUST at least double =
the hop count.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);borde=
r-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><d=
iv></div><div><br></div><div><u><b>Forwarding-vs-regeneration</b></u></div>=
<div>Recent exchanges on the list made me understand that protocol control =
messages are *not* forwarded, but are consumed at each hop, then a new mess=
age with (almost-but-not-quite) the same content is generated and transmitt=
ed.</div><div><br></div><div>I have thought some more on this (&amp; read s=
ome of the exchanges on the list on this topic by Chris, Ulrich, and others=
), and I am convinced that this is not the right way to go,=C2=A0<b>at leas=
t</b>=C2=A0for the following reasons:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">	</span><b>It renders the hop-limit/hop-count fields in the RFC5=
444 message header useless.</b></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap">		</span>This would not be bad if the functionality offered by those fi=
elds was not useful</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span=
>=E2=80=94 sadly, it is. For example, for scope limited flooding (expanding=
 ring search, and=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</=
span>such) which may be of interest, and which require hop-limit.=C2=A0</di=
v><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>A hop-count field may =
also provide a =E2=80=9Ccheap=E2=80=9D (in terms of overhead) additional pi=
ece</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>of information =
to use conjunctively with a =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D metric.</div><div><br></=
div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>The only practical s=
olution would be to re-introduce these functions by way of inserting a</div=
><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>MessageTLV =E2=80=94 wh=
ich (i) is not specified in this document, and (ii) which would just</div><=
div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>serve to render messages =
bigger than strictly needed.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">		</span>Scope limited flooding =C2=A0does seem to be a nec=
essary requirement, if for no</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap=
">		</span>other reason than to prevent information from =E2=80=9Ccirculati=
ng forever in the network=E2=80=9D.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote>=
<div>JWD: I partly disagree that it can&#39;t be used for this purpose.=C2=
=A0 RFC5444 specifies:<br>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:1=
3.3333px">&lt;msg-hop-limit&gt;  is omitted if the mhashoplimit flag is cle=
ared</span></div><pre class=3D"" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">      &#39;0&#39;); otherwise, is an =
8-bit unsigned integer field that can
      contain the maximum number of hops that the message should be
      further transmitted.
</pre><div><br></div><div>which in retrospect was a mistake as 5444 was mea=
nt to be a format and not a protocol specification as we mentioned many tim=
es.=C2=A0 No other =C2=A0protocol message is going to forward these message=
s as AODVv2 &quot;owns&quot; the message type so I don&#39;t see an issue w=
ith bending the terms in 5444 to allow this forwarding of &quot;information=
&quot; =C2=A0The way multiplexers work messages can get torn apart and sent=
 back out in a different way.=C2=A0 My OLSRv2 with another version will lik=
ely do just that.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(=
204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-w=
rap:break-word"><div></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</spa=
n>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><b><u>It makes end-to-end a=
uthentication unnecessarily hard.</u></b></div><div><span style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">		</span>I think Chris called this out already, but it bears =
repeating: S generates a message=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">		</span>(say, a RREQ), and includes an ICV calculated over the =
content of the message.</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</=
span>For any recipient to be able to validate the ICV, the message has to b=
e exactly</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>the same =
=E2=80=94 not just in content, but in structure =E2=80=94 as what was gener=
ated.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</spa=
n>=E2=80=9CRegenerating=E2=80=9D rather than =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D m=
essages means, that the intermediate</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:p=
re-wrap">		</span>router =E2=80=9Cregenerating=E2=80=9D the RREQ may chose =
a different structure (e.g., include TLVs</div><div><span style=3D"white-sp=
ace:pre-wrap">		</span>in a different order).</div><div><br></div><div><spa=
n style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>The proposal from=C2=A0<a href=3D=
"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00</a><=
/div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>is to add constrain=
ts on (i) the set of elements to include in a signature and (ii) the</div><=
div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>order of these elements.<=
/div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>One=
=C2=A0problem with that approach is (i): if an extension adds a message TLV=
, or an=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>Addre=
ss TLV, to a message, then that will not be =E2=80=9Ccovered=E2=80=9D by th=
e proposed e2esec TLV.</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</s=
pan>Rather for *each* extension developed, an =E2=80=9Cupdates e2esec=E2=80=
=9D clause needs to be done.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">		</span>I=E2=80=99d say that this approach would be prone =
to errors =E2=80=94 and add entropy to the process</div><div><span style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>of designing protocol extensions. The alter=
native, a message being generated by the</div><div><span style=3D"white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">		</span>source and *forwarded* (as we do in OLSRv2, for examp=
le) would allow ICV TLVs=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">		</span>(even, allow reuse of those specified for OLSRv2) for covering =
a message and=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span=
>extensions.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=
		</span>=E2=80=9CBut what about the metrics value which will change on eac=
h hop=E2=80=9D, you may say?</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"=
>		</span>Fortunately, that is relatively easy to handle: simply zero out t=
he value of that TLV when</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		=
</span>generating or verifying the ICV MessageTLV. And use Packet-TLVs for =
hop-by-hop=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>au=
thentication, if needed (but, see below).</div><div><br></div></div></block=
quote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</=
span><b><u>It prevents the use of more clever/advanced signature schemes/IC=
Vs</u></b></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>Aggregat=
e signature algorithms (=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/=
papers/aggsurvey.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/p=
apers/aggsurvey.pdf</a>)</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		<=
/span>exist, and an interesting use-case can be found in also reactive prot=
ocols, allowing verifying</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		=
</span>not =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D the end points, but also the intermediari=
es (again, with the appropriate =E2=80=9Czero out=E2=80=9D</div><div><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>discussed above, or something smart=
er).</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>Regeneration o=
f messages, rather than forwarding, renders that impossible (or, if used,</=
div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>updating to =C2=A0<a=
 href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec-00" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-aodv-e2esec=
-00</a>)</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: this is IMO the b=
ig issue.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:br=
eak-word"><div></div><div>There are other reasons, but the above are those =
that jump at me as immediate show-stoppers.</div><div><br></div><div>I do h=
onestly not see what possible benefit there is from =E2=80=9Cregeneration=
=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 but I see very clear inconveniences, and security is no=
t the least of these. Insisting on =E2=80=9Cregeneration=E2=80=9D requires =
development of =E2=80=9Cnon-general workarounds=E2=80=9D as pointed out abo=
ve.</div><div><br></div><div><b><u>Security Considerations</u></b></div><di=
v>This is an always thorny subject. When OLSRv2 was going through the proce=
ss we got a thorough education in how little we knew about security from th=
e SEC-ADs, and had to spend about a year or so developing RFC7183. The bott=
om line is, that this protocol needs its =E2=80=9CRFC7183 =C2=A0equivalent=
=E2=80=9D, either as part of the main document, or as an independent docume=
nt. currently, that is not the case.</div><div><br></div><div>A minima, loo=
king at BCP72 and BCP107 =E2=80=94 taking inspiration from RFC7183 might be=
 aw good idea, as that was the most recent that went through the SEC AD. Re=
gardless of how, however, a =E2=80=9Cmandatory to implement=E2=80=9D securi=
ty mechanism most be specified (I think the right term was =E2=80=9CMUST im=
plement, SHOULD use=E2=80=9D), in sufficient detail to ensure interoperable=
 implementations.</div><div><br></div><div>As an example, both [RFC6130] an=
d [RFC7181] set out that that:</div><div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 On receiving a ... message, a router MUST first check if the</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 message is invalid for processing by this router</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>and then proceed to give a number of conditions that=
, each, will lead to a rejection of the message as &quot;badly formed and t=
herefore invalid for processing=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 a list which RFC7183 the=
n amended. That gave a =E2=80=9Chook=E2=80=9D for RFC7183 for inserting =E2=
=80=9Crejection=E2=80=9D. Idem for message generation.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>If I was to do RFC7181/RFC6130 today, I would include that directly in=
to the protocol specifications. It turned out to be more overhead (and slow=
 down publication anyways) to do it as separate documents.</div></div><div>=
<br></div><div>Secondly, we need to be a lot more rigid in terms of what IC=
Vs, Timestamps, etc. are added/removed, and what that brings.</div><div><br=
></div><div>For example (with the assumption that messages are *forwarded* =
and *not* regenerated), this could be one option:</div><div><br></div><div>=
<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:p=
re-wrap">	</span>When a RREQ, RREP message is generated, add an ICV Message=
 TLV, which is calculated &lt;this way&gt;</div><div><span style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">			</span>=C2=A0=E2=80=A6(take inspiration from RFC7183 here=
)</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>o<=
span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>When a RREQ, RREP message is tr=
ansmitted =C2=A0(by the source, or forwarded by an intermediary)</div><div>=
<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">			</span>in an RFC5444 packet, an ICV=
 Packet TLV is added to the packet, which is calculated &lt;this way&gt; =
=E2=80=A6</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		<=
/span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>When an RFC5444 packet =
is received, validate the ICV Packet TLV &lt;this way&gt; and if the ICV do=
esn=E2=80=99t validate,</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">			<=
/span>discard the contained messages.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	<=
/span>When receiving a RREQ/RREP (either as destination, or as an intermedi=
ary), validate the ICV Message TLV=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-spa=
ce:pre-wrap">			</span>&lt;this way&gt; and if the ICV doesn=E2=80=99t vali=
date, discard the message, do not process, do not forward.</div><div><br></=
div><div>This is a different (and more flexible?) model than =E2=80=9Cjust=
=E2=80=9D transitive trust and =E2=80=9Cjust=E2=80=9D end-to-end trust disc=
ussed previously, and is enabled by the =E2=80=9Cforwarding=E2=80=9D bit de=
scribed previously.</div><div><br></div><div><b><u>Metrics</u></b></div><di=
v>I have asked this numerous times, but have not gotten any answer so I am =
escalating this again. Why is this document having a normative reference to=
 RFC6551?</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:=
0px;margin-bottom:0px">   [<a name=3D"-8904636296196833863_ref-RFC6551">RFC=
6551</a>]  Vasseur, JP., Ed., Kim, M., Ed., Pister, K., Dejean, N.,
              and D. Barthel, &quot;Routing Metrics Used for Path Calculati=
on
              in Low-Power and Lossy Networks&quot;, <a href=3D"https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" target=3D"_blank">RFC 6551</a>, DOI 10.17487/
              <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6551" target=3D"_bl=
ank">RFC6551</a>, March 2012,
              &lt;<a href=3D"http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551" target=
=3D"_blank">http://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6551</a>&gt;.</pre><div><br><=
/div></div><div><br></div><div>Unless I am mistaken, this is not the ROLL W=
G. And the abstract to RFC6551 explicitly reads:</div><div><br></div><div><=
pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap">   Low-Power and Lo=
ssy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics
   compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
   specification of new routing metrics and constraints.  </pre><div>Which =
explicitly is disclaiming that these metrics are<u><b> not applicable in ad=
 hoc networks</b></u> =E2=80=94 and, I am wondering, what has changed since=
 the publication of RFC6551 to suddenly make these applicable?</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0I am also wondering if looking at (and, perhaps, using?)=
 the same metric type TLV type as in OLSRv2 is not a possibility?</div></di=
v><div><br></div><div>Either way, referencing RFC6551 here is wrong.</div><=
div><br></div><div><b><u>RFC6621 (SMF) usage</u></b></div><div>As late as e=
arlier this month, RFC6621 reared its head again on the mailing list. I und=
erstand that the authors are set on using flooding reduction as part of RRE=
Q distribution. If that is the case, then this protocol MUST specify that f=
looding reduction.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Saying =E2=80=9CUse RFC66=
21=E2=80=9D won=E2=80=99t work, for reasons Chris point out in an email ear=
lier to the list:</div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">The network does not =
and fundamentally cannot offer multicast suppression to AODVv2. This isn&#3=
9;t a hard concept, but seems to keep=C2=A0having to be said. AODVv2 messag=
es are carried in 5444 packets, and those only travel one hop. That doesn&#=
39;t allow for suppression.=C2=A0Furthermore AODVv2 is creating new message=
s each hop. That needs AODVv2 specific handling.</blockquote></div><div><br=
></div><div>And quoting an email from myself:</div><div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite">If protocol X relies on using a flooding operation, then it certainl=
y is protocol X&#39;s responsibility to =C2=A0specify the flooding operatio=
n (or, at least,=C2=A0the requirements to the flooding operation ) for corr=
ect functioning of protocol X.<br></blockquote><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99ve =
previously pointed out that RFC6621 requires some degree of configuration (=
can=E2=80=99t just, for example, pick two different relay set selection alg=
orithms, as that may produce a disconnected flooding domain).</div><div><br=
></div><div>In other words, what the authors propose in=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-perkins-manet-using-rfc6621-00</a>=
=C2=A0is insufficient.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: I a=
gree references to RFC6621 should be removed and use of reduced relay sets =
should be work for an extension draft.=C2=A0 All that&#39;s is needed to to=
 allow AODVv2 routers to not regenerate RREQ which is already the case.</di=
v><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><di=
v></div><div><b><u>Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es)=
 - &amp; RFC6621</u></b></div><div>I think that it has been established tha=
t the ability to use the same address on multiple interfaces is a requireme=
nt. It=E2=80=99s not clear to me that a single way of doing so has been pro=
posed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (=
for example, will it work =C2=A0if router A and router B both have two inte=
rfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div><div><br><=
/div><div>This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621.=
 One of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - =
calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it de=
tects bidirectionality of links.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I have not =
worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94 but,=
 it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=
=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints=
 when faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.</div><div><br></di=
v></div></blockquote><div>JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is t=
o mandate that any interface which shares an address with another much be b=
ridged.=C2=A0 Then you really only have a single interface again. Or just s=
ay it&#39;s not allowed.=C2=A0 Other more complex methods may be possible b=
ut we are honestly past time for that and as Thomas points out there are co=
rner cases that we will likely miss and its past time for that.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s=
tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div=
><div><b><u>Prefixes &amp; Gateways</u></b></div><div>A question to my mind=
, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from reading the draft since =
it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I=
 send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?</div><div><br=
></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: I believe Lotte answered this in that i=
t&#39;s not allowed.=C2=A0 Simple fix.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-lef=
t-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If the whole pr=
efix is part of the attached network set of a single router,=C2=A0</div><di=
v><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>then I expect to get a sing=
le RREP back, is that the case?</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If=
 &quot;half the prefix&quot; =C2=A0is part of the attached network set of a=
 single router,=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</sp=
an>and the other half is part of the attached network set of another =C2=A0=
single router,=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</spa=
n>then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?</div><div><br></div><div><span=
 style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wra=
p">	</span>More generally, will I get a tree build through the network here=
?</div><div><br></div><div>Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not expli=
cit enough about multiple =C2=A0&quot;default gateways&quot; =E2=80=94 i.e.=
, the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, an=
d there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ =
gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it should respond (t=
he destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is c=
onfigured=E2=80=9D).</div><div><br></div><div>But, if A is close to GW1, an=
d B is close to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (according to the metr=
ic used) within the MANET, then it would be preferential for the route from=
 A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>Is this a supported configuration?=C2=A0</div><div><span styl=
e=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	<=
/span>If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications) hand=
led?=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span st=
yle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If not, where is it stated that this c=
onfiguration is not possible with this protocol?</div><div><br></div><div><=
br></div><div>The applicability statement says:</div><div><br></div><div><p=
re style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   AODVv2 is d=
esigned for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" target=3D"_blank">Secti=
on 9</a>.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I believe that the scenario I describe is i=
ndeed a stub network (and not a transit network)?</div><div><br></div></div=
></blockquote><div>JWD: I&#39;d change it to be configured to perform limit=
ed gateway functions when attached to external networks.=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>=E2=80=94 =E2=
=80=94 =E2=80=94=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As I indicated, these are t=
he big-picture issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to=
 write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but those =
were the ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________=
________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/manet/N3UEpcmf9lo4uz73d4fV5DS1ugU>
Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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I will get to the rest of your mail some other time, but one point...

> =20
>> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
>> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same add=
ress on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear to me t=
hat a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperat=
ing conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will it work  if router=
 A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the s=
ame IP address?)
>>=20
>> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of t=
he complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates=
 Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidir=
ectionality of links.=20
>>=20
>> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =E2=
=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to say=
 =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration co=
nstraints when faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.
>>=20
> JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is to mandate that any interf=
ace which shares an address with another much be bridged.  Then you really o=
nly have a single interface again. Or just say it's not allowed.  Other more=
 complex methods may be possible but we are honestly past time for that and a=
s Thomas points out there are corner cases that we will likely miss and its p=
ast time for that.

You do simply not get to say that it is "past time" for this, given that I h=
ave been pointing the need for this to be resolved out, on the list, repeate=
dly and for ages -- only to have the authors ignore it.

To declare that "it is past time for that" when the issue in question has be=
en raised in public and for a long time is, I believe, grounds for a process=
 appeal.

Thomas

> =20
>> Prefixes & Gateways
>> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from r=
eading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =E2=80=
=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /<128 in IPv6=
)?
>>=20
> JWD: I believe Lotte answered this in that it's not allowed.  Simple fix.=20=

>> 	o	If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a=
 single router,=20
>> 		then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the case?
>>=20
>> 	o	If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network set o=
f a single router,=20
>> 		and the other half is part of the attached network set of a=
nother  single router,=20
>> 		then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
>>=20
>> 	o	More generally, will I get a tree build through the network=
 here?
>>=20
>> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about multiple=
  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe=
 rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple gateways to the Int=
ernet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway de=
termines if it should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe M=
ANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).
>>=20
>> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far f=
ar apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would be p=
referential for the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=
=80=9D-GW2?=20
>>=20
>> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>> 	o	If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complicat=
ions) handled?=20
>> 	o	If not, where is it stated that this configuration is not p=
ossible with this protocol?
>>=20
>>=20
>> The applicability statement says:
>>=20
>>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
>>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9.
>>=20
>> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not a=
 transit network)?
>>=20
> JWD: I'd change it to be configured to perform limited gateway functions w=
hen attached to external networks.=20
>> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
>>=20
>> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten aroun=
d to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working thro=
ugh the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, and which seem i=
mperative to resolve.
>>=20
>> Best,
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-F01C20DB-34D3-4D97-91D2-16F13AC14912
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	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I will get to the rest of your mail so=
me other time, but one point...</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></di=
v><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(=
204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wr=
ap:break-word"><div></div><div><b><u>Multiple interfaces configured with the=
 same address(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b></div><div>I think that it has been=
 established that the ability to use the same address on multiple interfaces=
 is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear to me that a single way of doing s=
o has been proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are=
 called out (for example, will it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both h=
ave two interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div=
><div><br></div><div>This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction an=
d RFC6621. One of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for e=
xample - calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in h=
ow it detects bidirectionality of links.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I ha=
ve not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94=
 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=
=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constrain=
ts when faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.</div><div><br></d=
iv></div></blockquote><div>JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is t=
o mandate that any interface which shares an address with another much be br=
idged.&nbsp; Then you really only have a single interface again. Or just say=
 it's not allowed.&nbsp; Other more complex methods may be possible but we a=
re honestly past time for that and as Thomas points out there are corner cas=
es that we will likely miss and its past time for that.</div></div></div></d=
iv></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You do simply not get to say that it is "=
past time" for this, given that I have been pointing the need for this to be=
 resolved out, on the list, repeatedly and for ages -- only to have the auth=
ors ignore it.</div><div><br></div><div>To declare that "it is past time for=
 that" when the issue in question has been raised in public and for a long t=
ime is, I believe, grounds for a process appeal.</div><div><br></div><div>Th=
omas</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px=
;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><b><u>Prefixes &amp; G=
ateways</u></b></div><div>A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know ho=
w to answer that from reading the draft since it is not discussed in section=
 9 (at least), is: =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D=
 (i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD=
: I believe Lotte answered this in that it's not allowed.&nbsp; Simple fix.&=
nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-styl=
e:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><di=
v><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:=
pre-wrap">	</span>If the whole prefix is part of the attached network s=
et of a single router,&nbsp;</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=
		</span>then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the=
 case?</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If "half the prefix"=
 &nbsp;is part of the attached network set of a single router,&nbsp;</div><d=
iv><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>and the othe=
r half is part of the attached network set of another &nbsp;single router,&n=
bsp;</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>then=
 I expect two RREPs, is that the case?</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D=
"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan>More generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?</div><=
div><br></div><div>Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enoug=
h about multiple &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external netwo=
rk being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multipl=
e gateways to the Internet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, a=
nd how the gateway determines if it should respond (the destination is not p=
art of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).</di=
v><div><br></div><div>But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A=
 and B being far far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, t=
hen it would be preferential for the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9C=
the-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Is this a supporte=
d configuration?&nbsp;</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</s=
pan>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If yes, how is it (s=
eq# wise, I would expect some complications) handled?&nbsp;</div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap=
">	</span>If not, where is it stated that this configuration is not po=
ssible with this protocol?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The appli=
cability statement says:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13=
px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">   AODVv2 is designed for stub or disco=
nnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a href=3D"https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" target=3D"_blank">Section=
 9</a>.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I believe that the scenario I describe is in=
deed a stub network (and not a transit network)?</div><div><br></div></div><=
/blockquote><div>JWD: I'd change it to be configured to perform limited gate=
way functions when attached to external networks.&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;b=
order-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=
=94&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>As I indicated, these are the big-picture=
 issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=
=80=99m not through working through the document, but those were the ones th=
at came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br=
>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:51:25 +0000
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To: Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
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Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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I think you're misunderstanding my point. It's my opinion that it's past
time to come up with some elegant and complex solution to fix this issue.
Simple and safe solutions should be preferred as we'd likely miss
something. This is regardless of when the outstanding problem was first
raised.

Justin

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 4:36 PM Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.org>
wrote:

> I will get to the rest of your mail some other time, but one point...
>
>
>
>> *Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621*
>> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same
>> address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear =
to me that
>> a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperat=
ing
>> conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will it work  if router=
 A and
>> router B both have two interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the sam=
e
>> IP address?)
>>
>> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of
>> the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example -
>> calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it
>> detects bidirectionality of links.
>>
>> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =
=E2=80=94
>> but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to say =
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use
>> RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints when face=
d with
>> multiple interfaces must be worked out.
>>
>> JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is to mandate that any
> interface which shares an address with another much be bridged.  Then you
> really only have a single interface again. Or just say it's not allowed.
> Other more complex methods may be possible but we are honestly past time
> for that and as Thomas points out there are corner cases that we will
> likely miss and its past time for that.
>
>
> You do simply not get to say that it is "past time" for this, given that =
I
> have been pointing the need for this to be resolved out, on the list,
> repeatedly and for ages -- only to have the authors ignore it.
>
> To declare that "it is past time for that" when the issue in question has
> been raised in public and for a long time is, I believe, grounds for a
> process appeal.
>
> Thomas
>
>
>
>> *Prefixes & Gateways*
>> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from
>> reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is:
>> =E2=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /<1=
28 in IPv6)?
>>
>> JWD: I believe Lotte answered this in that it's not allowed.  Simple fix=
.
>
>> o If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single
>> router,
>> then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the case?
>>
>> o If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network set of a single
>> router,
>> and the other half is part of the attached network set of another  singl=
e
>> router,
>> then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
>>
>> o More generally, will I get a tree build through the network here?
>>
>> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about multipl=
e
>>  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9C=
the rest of the
>> Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I =
understand
>> how the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it
>> should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix=
, with
>> which it is configured=E2=80=9D).
>>
>> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far
>> far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would=
 be
>> preferential for the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Intern=
et=E2=80=9D-GW2?
>>
>> Is this a supported configuration?
>> o If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complications)
>> handled?
>> o If not, where is it stated that this configuration is not possible
>> with this protocol?
>>
>>
>> The applicability statement says:
>>
>>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
>>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9 <https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9>.
>>
>>
>> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and not
>> a transit network)?
>>
>> JWD: I'd change it to be configured to perform limited gateway functions
> when attached to external networks.
>
>> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94
>>
>> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten
>> around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through wor=
king
>> through the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, and whi=
ch
>> seem imperative to resolve.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> manet mailing list
>> manet@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>
>>
>

--089e01176311fa4d78052ea96005
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<p dir=3D"ltr">I think you&#39;re misunderstanding my point. It&#39;s my op=
inion that it&#39;s past time to come up with some elegant and complex solu=
tion to fix this issue. Simple and safe solutions should be preferred as we=
&#39;d likely miss something. This is regardless of when the outstanding pr=
oblem was first raised.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Justin</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 4:36 =
PM Thomas Heide Clausen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@=
thomasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv dir=3D"auto"><div>I will get to the rest of your mail some other time, b=
ut one point...</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);b=
order-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word=
"><div></div><div><b><u>Multiple interfaces configured with the same addres=
s(es) - &amp; RFC6621</u></b></div><div>I think that it has been establishe=
d that the ability to use the same address on multiple interfaces is a requ=
irement. It=E2=80=99s not clear to me that a single way of doing so has bee=
n proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called =
out (for example, will it work =C2=A0if router A and router B both have two=
 interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div><div>=
<br></div><div>This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC=
6621. One of the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for examp=
le - calculates Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how =
it detects bidirectionality of links.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I have=
 not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94=
 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=
=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration const=
raints when faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.</div><div><b=
r></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing thi=
s is to mandate that any interface which shares an address with another muc=
h be bridged.=C2=A0 Then you really only have a single interface again. Or =
just say it&#39;s not allowed.=C2=A0 Other more complex methods may be poss=
ible but we are honestly past time for that and as Thomas points out there =
are corner cases that we will likely miss and its past time for that.</div>=
</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div>=
You do simply not get to say that it is &quot;past time&quot; for this, giv=
en that I have been pointing the need for this to be resolved out, on the l=
ist, repeatedly and for ages -- only to have the authors ignore it.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>To declare that &quot;it is past time for that&quot; when=
 the issue in question has been raised in public and for a long time is, I =
believe, grounds for a process appeal.</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><b=
r></div><div>Thomas</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,20=
4);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word"><div></div><div><b><u>Prefixes &amp; Gateways</u></b></div><div>A que=
stion to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from reading =
the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =E2=80=9CW=
hat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6=
)?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: I believe Lotte answere=
d this in that it&#39;s not allowed.=C2=A0 Simple fix.=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-widt=
h:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><span style=3D"=
white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span=
>If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single router=
,=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>then I expe=
ct to get a single RREP back, is that the case?</div><div><br></div><div><s=
pan style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-=
wrap">	</span>If &quot;half the prefix&quot; =C2=A0is part of the attached =
network set of a single router,=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:=
pre-wrap">		</span>and the other half is part of the attached network set o=
f another =C2=A0single router,=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:p=
re-wrap">		</span>then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?</div><div><br>=
</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"whi=
te-space:pre-wrap">	</span>More generally, will I get a tree build through =
the network here?</div><div><br></div><div>Section 9 (or, the whole spec) i=
s also not explicit enough about multiple =C2=A0&quot;default gateways&quot=
; =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Cthe rest of the Inter=
net=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple gateways to the Internet. I understa=
nd how the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway determines if it s=
hould respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe MANET prefix, wi=
th which it is configured=E2=80=9D).</div><div><br></div><div>But, if A is =
close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far far apart (accor=
ding to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would be preferential fo=
r the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=9D-GW2?=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Is this a supported configuration?=C2=A0</d=
iv><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">	</span>If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some c=
omplications) handled?=C2=A0</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap"=
>	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If not, where is it =
stated that this configuration is not possible with this protocol?</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>The applicability statement says:</div><div=
><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px">   AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" target=3D"_blank">Secti=
on 9</a>.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I believe that the scenario I describe is i=
ndeed a stub network (and not a transit network)?</div><div><br></div></div=
></blockquote><div>JWD: I&#39;d change it to be configured to perform limit=
ed gateway functions when attached to external networks.=C2=A0</div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-wi=
dth:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>=E2=80=94 =E2=
=80=94 =E2=80=94=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>As I indicated, these are t=
he big-picture issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to=
 write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working through the document, but those =
were the ones that came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.</div=
><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________=
________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div>

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Cc: Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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> On 22 Mar 2016, at 21:51, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I think you're misunderstanding my point. It's my opinion that it's past t=
ime to come up with some elegant and complex solution to fix this issue. Sim=
ple and safe solutions should be preferred as we'd likely miss something. Th=
is is regardless of when the outstanding problem was first raised.
>=20

My point is that it is an issue that must be addressed: the requirements tha=
t multiple interfaces can be sharing the same address is old, I have raised i=
t multiple times over the years. OLSRv2 was built to support it. Henning rep=
orted an additional use case.

The WG chair suggesting to disallow it, or to "bridge it", is *not* solving t=
he issue raised. It is the WG chair ignoring legitimate requirements from th=
e WG, which does not strike me as aligned with proper process.

The WG chair saying "it is past time to solve" a long raised (and ignored) i=
ssue does not strike me as being aligned with proper process either.

Thomas

> Justin
>=20
>=20
>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 4:36 PM Thomas Heide Clausen <ietf@thomasclausen.or=
g> wrote:
>> I will get to the rest of your mail some other time, but one point...
>>=20
>>> =20
>>>> Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - & RFC6621
>>>> I think that it has been established that the ability to use the same a=
ddress on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=80=99s not clear to me=
 that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor that the =E2=80=9Coper=
ating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example, will it work  if rout=
er A and router B both have two interfaces, and that all 4 interfaces use th=
e same IP address?)
>>>>=20
>>>> This is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One o=
f the complexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calcula=
tes Flooding-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bi=
directionality of links.=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I have not worked out all the details of how this impacts this protocol=
 =E2=80=94 but, it requires attention. Especially when wanting to be able to=
 say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuratio=
n constraints when faced with multiple interfaces must be worked out.
>>>>=20
>>> JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is to mandate that any inte=
rface which shares an address with another much be bridged.  Then you really=
 only have a single interface again. Or just say it's not allowed.  Other mo=
re complex methods may be possible but we are honestly past time for that an=
d as Thomas points out there are corner cases that we will likely miss and i=
ts past time for that.
>>=20
>> You do simply not get to say that it is "past time" for this, given that I=
 have been pointing the need for this to be resolved out, on the list, repea=
tedly and for ages -- only to have the authors ignore it.
>>=20
>> To declare that "it is past time for that" when the issue in question has=
 been raised in public and for a long time is, I believe, grounds for a proc=
ess appeal.
>>=20
>> Thomas
>>=20
>>> =20
>>>> Prefixes & Gateways
>>>> A question to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from=
 reading the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =E2=
=80=9CWhat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /<128 in I=
Pv6)?
>>>>=20
>>> JWD: I believe Lotte answered this in that it's not allowed.  Simple fix=
.=20
>>>> 	o	If the whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a=
 single router,=20
>>>> 		then I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the case?
>>>>=20
>>>> 	o	If "half the prefix"  is part of the attached network set o=
f a single router,=20
>>>> 		and the other half is part of the attached network set of a=
nother  single router,=20
>>>> 		then I expect two RREPs, is that the case?
>>>>=20
>>>> 	o	More generally, will I get a tree build through the network=
 here?
>>>>=20
>>>> Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about multip=
le  "default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9Ct=
he rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple gateways to the I=
nternet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway d=
etermines if it should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe M=
ANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).
>>>>=20
>>>> But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far=
 far apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would be=
 preferential for the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=
=80=9D-GW2?=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Is this a supported configuration?=20
>>>> 	o	If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I would expect some complicat=
ions) handled?=20
>>>> 	o	If not, where is it stated that this configuration is not p=
ossible with this protocol?
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The applicability statement says:
>>>>=20
>>>>    AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad hoc networks,
>>>>    i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
>>>>    AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when=

>>>>    attached to external networks, as discussed in Section 9.
>>>>=20
>>>> I believe that the scenario I describe is indeed a stub network (and no=
t a transit network)?
>>>>=20
>>> JWD: I'd change it to be configured to perform limited gateway functions=
 when attached to external networks.=20
>>>> =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=94=20
>>>>=20
>>>> As I indicated, these are the big-picture issues that I have gotten aro=
und to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=80=99m not through working th=
rough the document, but those were the ones that came to mind, and which see=
m imperative to resolve.
>>>>=20
>>>> Best,
>>>>=20
>>>> Thomas
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> manet mailing list
>>>> manet@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>=20
>>>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><div><br>On 22 Mar 2016, at 2=
1:51, Justin Dean &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com">bebemaster@gma=
il.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p dir=3D"=
ltr">I think you're misunderstanding my point. It's my opinion that it's pas=
t time to come up with some elegant and complex solution to fix this issue. S=
imple and safe solutions should be preferred as we'd likely miss something. T=
his is regardless of when the outstanding problem was first raised.</p></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>My point is that it is an issue that must b=
e addressed: the requirements that multiple interfaces can be sharing the sa=
me address is old, I have raised it multiple times over the years. OLSRv2 wa=
s built to support it. Henning reported an additional use case.</div><div><b=
r></div><div>The WG chair suggesting to disallow it, or to "bridge it", is *=
not* solving the issue raised. It is the WG chair ignoring legitimate requir=
ements from the WG, which does not strike me as aligned with proper process.=
</div><div><br></div><div>The WG chair saying "it is past time to solve" a l=
ong raised (and ignored) issue does not strike me as being aligned with prop=
er process either.</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><div>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Justin</p>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Mar 22, 2016, 4:36 P=
M Thomas Heide Clausen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org">ietf@th=
omasclausen.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"auto"><div>I will get to the rest of your mail some other time, but on=
e point...</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></d=
iv><div><b><u>Multiple interfaces configured with the same address(es) - &am=
p; RFC6621</u></b></div><div>I think that it has been established that the a=
bility to use the same address on multiple interfaces is a requirement. It=E2=
=80=99s not clear to me that a single way of doing so has been proposed, nor=
 that the =E2=80=9Coperating conditions=E2=80=9D are called out (for example=
, will it work &nbsp;if router A and router B both have two interfaces, and t=
hat all 4 interfaces use the same IP address?)</div><div><br></div><div>This=
 is not entirely unrelated to flooding reduction and RFC6621. One of the com=
plexities is to get that just right: OLSRv2 - for example - calculates Flood=
ing-MPRs per interface, and RFC6130 is careful in how it detects bidirection=
ality of links.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>I have not worked out all the=
 details of how this impacts this protocol =E2=80=94 but, it requires attent=
ion. Especially when wanting to be able to say =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6use RFC6621=
=E2=80=9D, then the interface configuration constraints when faced with mult=
iple interfaces must be worked out.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><=
div>JWD: The super simple dumb way of doing this is to mandate that any inte=
rface which shares an address with another much be bridged.&nbsp; Then you r=
eally only have a single interface again. Or just say it's not allowed.&nbsp=
; Other more complex methods may be possible but we are honestly past time f=
or that and as Thomas points out there are corner cases that we will likely m=
iss and its past time for that.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div>You do simply not get to say that it is "=
past time" for this, given that I have been pointing the need for this to be=
 resolved out, on the list, repeatedly and for ages -- only to have the auth=
ors ignore it.</div><div><br></div><div>To declare that "it is past time for=
 that" when the issue in question has been raised in public and for a long t=
ime is, I believe, grounds for a process appeal.</div></div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br></div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote"><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D=
"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,20=
4,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:bre=
ak-word"><div></div><div><b><u>Prefixes &amp; Gateways</u></b></div><div>A q=
uestion to my mind, and I am not sure I know how to answer that from reading=
 the draft since it is not discussed in section 9 (at least), is: =E2=80=9CW=
hat happens if I send a RREQ to a prefix=E2=80=9D (i.e., a /&lt;128 in IPv6)=
?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>JWD: I believe Lotte answered t=
his in that it's not allowed.&nbsp; Simple fix.&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;bor=
der-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div><span style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If t=
he whole prefix is part of the attached network set of a single router,&nbsp=
;</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>then=
 I expect to get a single RREP back, is that the case?</div><div><br></div><=
div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"whit=
e-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If "half the prefix" &nbsp;is part of the at=
tached network set of a single router,&nbsp;</div><div><span style=3D"white-=
space:pre-wrap">		</span>and the other half is part of the at=
tached network set of another &nbsp;single router,&nbsp;</div><div><span sty=
le=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">		</span>then I expect two RREPs, is t=
hat the case?</div><div><br></div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">=
	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>More general=
ly, will I get a tree build through the network here?</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Section 9 (or, the whole spec) is also not explicit enough about multiple=
 &nbsp;"default gateways" =E2=80=94 i.e., the external network being =E2=80=9C=
the rest of the Internet=E2=80=9D, and there being multiple gateways to the I=
nternet. I understand how the RREQ gets to the gateway, and how the gateway d=
etermines if it should respond (the destination is not part of =E2=80=9Cthe M=
ANET prefix, with which it is configured=E2=80=9D).</div><div><br></div><div=
>But, if A is close to GW1, and B is close to GW2, but A and B being far far=
 apart (according to the metric used) within the MANET, then it would be pre=
ferential for the route from A to B to go via GW1-=E2=80=9Cthe-Internet=E2=80=
=9D-GW2?&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Is this a supported configuration?&n=
bsp;</div><div><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=
=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If yes, how is it (seq# wise, I woul=
d expect some complications) handled?&nbsp;</div><div><span style=3D"white-s=
pace:pre-wrap">	</span>o<span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>If n=
ot, where is it stated that this configuration is not possible with this pro=
tocol?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The applicability statement s=
ays:</div><div><br></div><div><pre style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:0px;ma=
rgin-bottom:0px">   AODVv2 is designed for stub or disconnected mobile ad ho=
c networks,
   i.e., non-transit networks or those not connected to the internet.
   AODVv2 can, however, be configured to perform gateway functions when
   attached to external networks, as discussed in <a href=3D"https://tools.i=
etf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-9" target=3D"_blank">Section=
 9</a>.
</pre></div><div><br></div><div>I believe that the scenario I describe is in=
deed a stub network (and not a transit network)?</div><div><br></div></div><=
/blockquote><div>JWD: I'd change it to be configured to perform limited gate=
way functions when attached to external networks.&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;b=
order-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">=
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div></div><div>=E2=80=94 =E2=80=94 =E2=80=
=94&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>As I indicated, these are the big-picture=
 issues that I have gotten around to thinking about enough to write up. I=E2=
=80=99m not through working through the document, but those were the ones th=
at came to mind, and which seem imperative to resolve.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div><div><br></div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br=
>
manet mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Lotte Steenbrink <lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>, "Mobile Ad Hoc Networks mailing list" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] AODVv2 - first comment (5444 multiplexer)
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--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923817D7GLKXM0002VGREEN_--


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From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, "Thomas Heide Clausen \(Thomas.Clausen@polytechnique.edu\)" <Thomas.Clausen@polytechnique.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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References: <8C311D85-5C5A-4155-9705-6B09D0AA588B@thomasclausen.org> <CA+-pDCds+kZy2LUz_A0c3_sJKF03NFroh5oXXgQP0fw=aGRNxg@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D92381821@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net> <CA+-pDCcJwyOZeMEGOx_DeYMrQ0_ANNsqi4pjbQUgO21y3s1ZFg@mail.gmail.com> <B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D92381902@GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 08:40:25 -0400
Message-ID: <CA+-pDCc2a62e-abpyjnt-ERPE6FhD-txMa5JgnwxPK6r0eZtpg@mail.gmail.com>
From: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com>
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Cc: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>, "Thomas Heide Clausen \(Thomas.Clausen@polytechnique.edu\)" <Thomas.Clausen@polytechnique.edu>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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RFC 7182 is mandatory to RFC 7181.  In violent agreement.  OLSRv2 MUST NOT
do that.  5444 doesn't generate/forward messages though 7181 does.  Clearly
there should be a way for a process sitting on the multiplexer to tell it
that a message is immutable.  But in other cases a message does get
change/added to (e.g. 6121 (SMF) tlvs attached to 6130 (NHDP) hello
messages).  In the end we all seem to agree end-to-end security is a
problem currently for AODVv2.

Justin

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <
chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

> I=E2=80=99ve put the MANET list back on distribution.
>
>
>
> As Thomas has pointed out to me, RFC 7182 is mandatory to implement as
> specified in RFC 7181. Thus =E2=80=9Cwithout ICVs=E2=80=9D is not an opti=
on, and anything
> that breaks 7182 breaks compliance with 7181. And changing a message brea=
ks
> 7181, in addition to it being directly indicated that messages are
> forwarded unchanged (hop count/limit aside).
>
>
>
> Or in other words, OLSRv2 MUST NOT do this, and 5444 multiplexer MUST NOT
> change messages (as visible from protocol). I have an updated 5444 usage
> draft that makes this clearer for the multiplexer, waiting on co-authors =
to
> review.
>
>
>
> *-- *
>
>
>
>
> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied
> Intelligence Laboratories *
> *________________________________________________________________________=
__
> *
> *T*:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great
> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
> www.baesystems.com/ai
>
> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
>
> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP
>
>
>
> *From:* Justin Dean [mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 23 March 2016 12:23
> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
> *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of
> big ticket Items
>
>
>
>
>
> **** WARNING ****
>
> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an
> external partner or the internet.*
>
> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any
> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you
> can look out for in emails you receive, click here
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documen=
ts/Red%20Flags.pdf>.*
> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process
> <http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights/Documen=
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>
> CMD> I think this comes under the heading of =E2=80=9Cnot prohibited but
> undesirable=E2=80=9D but also that all options I can see involve somethin=
g
> undesirable, or worse, so this may be the least undesirable
>
> JWD: check.
>
>
>
> JWD> The way multiplexers work messages can get torn apart and sent back
> out in a different way.  My OLSRv2 with another version will likely do ju=
st
> that.
>
> CMD> Absolutely not, that is a violation of OLSRv2 rules and unacceptable=
,
> because OLSRv2 specifies forwarding messages unchanged. That completely
> breaks use of RFC 7182 message ICVs - which might be applied by the
> multiplexer. Please do not even consider this.
>
> JWD: you are correct.  ICVs disallow this behavior.  In my own code the
> messages are not changed because I generated them in the first place.
> Without ICVs though it's quite natural.  I've personally seen three
> different packetbb parsers (one my own) which by default will rearrange a
> message if processed and regenerated  (actually caused some headache when
> trying to debug and getting different generated message outputs).  If the=
re
> are no ICVs and it doesn't matter, but that's throwing all of end to end
> security out the window.  End to end security is an issue.
>
> ********************************************************************
> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
> distribute its contents to any other person.
> ********************************************************************
>

--001a1142e9ec4c4715052eb6a223
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>RFC 7182 is mandatory to RFC 7181.=C2=A0 In violent a=
greement.=C2=A0 OLSRv2 MUST NOT do that.=C2=A0 5444 doesn&#39;t generate/fo=
rward messages though 7181 does.=C2=A0 Clearly there should be a way for a =
process sitting on the multiplexer to tell it that a message is immutable.=
=C2=A0 But in other cases a message does get change/added to (e.g. 6121 (SM=
F) tlvs attached to 6130 (NHDP) hello messages).=C2=A0 In the end we all se=
em to agree end-to-end security is a problem currently for AODVv2.<br><br><=
/div>Justin<br><div><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 8:29 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_=
blank">chris.dearlove@baesystems.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-GB">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">I=E2=80=99ve put the MANE=
T list back on distribution.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">As Thomas has pointed out=
 to me, RFC 7182 is mandatory to implement as specified in RFC 7181. Thus =
=E2=80=9Cwithout ICVs=E2=80=9D is not an option, and anything that breaks
 7182 breaks compliance with 7181. And changing a message breaks 7181, in a=
ddition to it being directly indicated that messages are forwarded unchange=
d (hop count/limit aside).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Or in other words, OLSRv2=
 MUST NOT do this, and 5444 multiplexer MUST NOT change messages (as visibl=
e from protocol). I have an updated 5444 usage draft that
 makes this clearer for the multiplexer, waiting on co-authors to review.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0=
07e7e">--
<u></u><u></u></span></b></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#0=
07e7e">Christopher Dearlove<br>
Senior Principal Engineer<br>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories<br>
</span></b><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;=
,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#bebebe">____________________________________=
______________________________________<br>
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#00007e"><br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quo=
t;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7d7d7d">T</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:8.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#7d7d7d">: =C2=
=A0<a href=3D"tel:%2B44%20%280%291245%20242194" value=3D"+441245242194" tar=
get=3D"_blank">+44 (0)1245 242194</a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0<b>E:
</b><a href=3D"mailto:chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" target=3D"_blank">chri=
s.dearlove@baesystems.com</a><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#00007e"><br>
</span><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#3a8b92">BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford=
 Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.baesystems.com/ai" target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D"c=
olor:#3a8b92">www.baesystems.com/ai</span></a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ari=
al&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3a8b92">BAE Systems Applied Intellig=
ence Limited<br>
Registered in England &amp; Wales No: 01337451<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:8.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#3a8b9=
2">Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<u></=
u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;" lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;" lang=3D"EN-US"> Justin Dean [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmai=
l.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 23 March 2016 12:23<br>
<b>To:</b> Dearlove, Christopher (UK)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of=
 big ticket Items<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border:solid black 1.0pt;padding:2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt 2.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;background:white" align=
=3D"center"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&q=
uot;;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center;background:white" align=
=3D"center"><b><span style=3D"font-size:15.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot=
;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972">*** WARNING ***<u></u><u></u></span=
></b></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-align:center;back=
ground:white" align=3D"center">
<i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;;color:#333972">This message originates from outside our organi=
sation, either from an external partner or the internet.</span></i><i><span=
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sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments=
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ot;;color:#333972"> that you can look out for in emails you receive,
 click <a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spo=
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here</a>.</span></i><i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><br>
<i><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">If =
you feel the email is suspicious, please follow
<a href=3D"http://intranet.ent.baesystems.com/howwework/security/spotlights=
/Documents/Dealing%20With%20Suspicious%20Emails.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
this process</a>.</span></i></span></i><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font=
-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#333972"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">CMD&gt; I think this comes under the heading of =E2=
=80=9Cnot prohibited but undesirable=E2=80=9D but also that all options I c=
an see involve something undesirable, or worse, so this may be the least un=
desirable<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">JWD: check.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">JWD&gt; The way multiplexers work messages can get t=
orn apart and sent back out in a different way.=C2=A0 My OLSRv2 with anothe=
r version will likely do just that.<br>
<br>
CMD&gt; Absolutely not, that is a violation of OLSRv2 rules and unacceptabl=
e, because OLSRv2 specifies forwarding messages unchanged. That completely =
breaks use of RFC 7182 message ICVs - which might be applied by the multipl=
exer. Please do not even consider this.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">JWD: you are correct.=C2=A0 ICVs disallow this behav=
ior.=C2=A0 In my own code the messages are not changed because I generated =
them in the first place.=C2=A0 Without ICVs though it&#39;s quite natural.=
=C2=A0 I&#39;ve personally seen three different packetbb parsers
 (one my own) which by default will rearrange a message if processed and re=
generated=C2=A0 (actually caused some headache when trying to debug and get=
ting different generated message outputs).=C2=A0 If there are no ICVs and i=
t doesn&#39;t matter, but that&#39;s throwing all
 of end to end security out the window.=C2=A0 End to end security is an iss=
ue.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
<p>********************************************************************<spa=
n class=3D""><br>
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended<br>
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended<br>
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.<br>
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or<br>
distribute its contents to any other person.<br>
********************************************************************</span>=
</p></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>

--001a1142e9ec4c4715052eb6a223--


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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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--001a11408a040f952d052eb6e6b6
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On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <
ietf@thomasclausen.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 22 Mar 2016, at 21:51, Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think you're misunderstanding my point. It's my opinion that it's past
> time to come up with some elegant and complex solution to fix this issue.
> Simple and safe solutions should be preferred as we'd likely miss
> something. This is regardless of when the outstanding problem was first
> raised.
>
> My point is that it is an issue that must be addressed: the requirements
> that multiple interfaces can be sharing the same address is old, I have
> raised it multiple times over the years. OLSRv2 was built to support it.
> Henning reported an additional use case.
>
> The WG chair suggesting to disallow it, or to "bridge it", is *not*
> solving the issue raised. It is the WG chair ignoring legitimate
> requirements from the WG, which does not strike me as aligned with proper
> process.
>
> The WG chair saying "it is past time to solve" a long raised (and ignored)
> issue does not strike me as being aligned with proper process either.
>
> Thomas
>
> Since you seem quite passionate about this issue let's work on fixing it
then.  I looked back over NHDP to see how we "solved" this issue (vaguely
remembering something about limiting the address assignment when two
interfaces on a node could reach the same medium but was unable to find
that).  It works because we tag neighboring addresses with either link or
neighbor status based on the incoming interface on which we received hello
messages. It seems to me that if AODVv2 limited RREP messages to the
interface on which the RREQ came in on (multicast or otherwise) that this
would fix the issue.

To do this the Neighbor Table (section 6.3) would have to be updated to
include the local interface on which this neighbor is associated with.
When attempting to check bidirectionality messages would only be sent out
on the listed interface.  This would be similar to the link table in NHDP
and link tlv types.

Justin

--001a11408a040f952d052eb6e6b6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Heide Clausen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@thomasclausen.org" target=3D"_blank">ietf@thomasclausen=
.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"au=
to"><span><div><br></div><div><br>On 22 Mar 2016, at 21:51, Justin Dean &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bebemaster@gmail=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><p dir=3D"l=
tr">I think you&#39;re misunderstanding my point. It&#39;s my opinion that =
it&#39;s past time to come up with some elegant and complex solution to fix=
 this issue. Simple and safe solutions should be preferred as we&#39;d like=
ly miss something. This is regardless of when the outstanding problem was f=
irst raised.</p></div></blockquote><div></div></span><div>My point is that =
it is an issue that must be addressed: the requirements that multiple inter=
faces can be sharing the same address is old, I have raised it multiple tim=
es over the years. OLSRv2 was built to support it. Henning reported an addi=
tional use case.</div><div><br></div><div>The WG chair suggesting to disall=
ow it, or to &quot;bridge it&quot;, is *not* solving the issue raised. It i=
s the WG chair ignoring legitimate requirements from the WG, which does not=
 strike me as aligned with proper process.</div><div><br></div><div>The WG =
chair saying &quot;it is past time to solve&quot; a long raised (and ignore=
d) issue does not strike me as being aligned with proper process either.</d=
iv><span><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Thomas</div></font></s=
pan><br></div></blockquote><div>Since you seem quite passionate about this =
issue let&#39;s work on fixing it then.=C2=A0 I looked back over NHDP to se=
e how we &quot;solved&quot; this issue (vaguely remembering something about=
 limiting the address assignment when two interfaces on a node could reach =
the same medium but was unable to find that).=C2=A0 It works because we tag=
 neighboring addresses with either link or neighbor status based on the inc=
oming interface on which we received hello messages. It seems to me that if=
 AODVv2 limited RREP messages to the interface on which the RREQ came in on=
 (multicast or otherwise) that this would fix the issue.=C2=A0 <br><br>To d=
o this the Neighbor Table (section 6.3) would have to be updated to include=
 the local interface on which this neighbor is associated with.=C2=A0 When =
attempting to check bidirectionality messages would only be sent out on the=
 listed interface.=C2=A0 This would be similar to the link table in NHDP an=
d link tlv types.<br><br></div><div>Justin<br></div></div></div></div>

--001a11408a040f952d052eb6e6b6--


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To: Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13 review - a couple of big ticket Items
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Justin Dean has requested publication of draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21 as
Proposed Standard on behalf of the MANET working group.

Please verify the document's state at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/

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<div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote">Justin Dean has requested publication of draft-ietf-manet-dlep-21 as Proposed Standard on behalf of the MANET working group.<br>
<br>
Please verify the document&#39;s state at <a href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/</a><br>
<br>
</div><br></div>

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Hi Justin, Hi all,
again, thank you for your super helpful and detailed reply! Answers =
inline.

> Am 22.03.2016 um 07:00 schrieb Justin Dean <bebemaster@gmail.com>:
>=20
> Responses inline.
>=20
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Lotte Steenbrink =
<lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de <mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de>> =
wrote:
> Hello Justin,
> thank you very much for your thorough and helpful review. We've =
adopted most of your editorial changes and are currently mulling over =
the larger ones.
> Some questions & comments for clarification:
>=20
> =46rom  2. Terminology:
> ------------------------------------
>=20
>    Local Route
>       An entry in the Local Route Set. (Local Route Set should have an =
entry, something simple and pointing to the section JWD)
> (Later in the document LocalRoute is used pick one JWD)
>=20
> LocalRoutes are not the same as the Local Route set, as they're =
actually entries of the Set, which is explained in section 4.5.  Local =
Route Set. Since LocalRoute is used before its explanation (in the     =
RERR (Route Error) definition of section 2), I can see how this is =
confusing. If my co-authors don't protest, I guess we can just eliminate =
that mention by changing "a valid LocalRoute" to "a valid route". Would =
that resolve this issue?
>=20
> JWD: This was mostly about introduction of the terms and the =
difference between Local Route Set having a space between "Local" and =
"Route" and an entry being a LocalRoute with no space.  I'm happy with =
just adding a reference to the section in which the Local Route Set is =
defined the first time the term is used.

Whoops, I totally missed that! Thanks for the clarification, LocalRoute =
is now space-free throughout the document; reference has been added.

>=20
> =46rom  3.  Applicability Statement:
> --------------------------------------------------
>=20
>  (This should go in the intro JWD)
>=20
> Which paragraph(s) are you referring to here?
> JWD: The deleted text as seen in the diff. =20
>=20
> Although AODVv2 is closely related to AODV [RFC3561], and shares some
>    features of DSR [RFC4728], AODVv2 is not interoperable with either =
of
>    those protocols.
>=20
>    The routing algorithm in AODVv2 MAY be operated at layers other =
than
>    the network layer, using layer-appropriate addresses.
>=20
> The diff also shows that I moved/edited it to right after the (we =
jumped right in here) comment.

Yes, and those changes have been adopted (I=E2=80=99ve assumed Intro to =
mean Overview?), I just wanted to make sure I understood you correctly =
there.

> =20
> =46rom  4.5.  Local Route Set:
> ------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(I=E2=80=99m assuming this is here to hint at the possibility of =
a unified router with multiple routing protocols playing nicely together =
JWD)
>=20
> Yup. Should we be more explicit there?
>=20
> JWD: Yes.  Don't make it complicated just mention that other routing =
protocols may also be operating on the same device

done.

> and it may be a better approach in these cases.
> =20

with =E2=80=9Eit=E2=80=9C being the division between local route set and =
RIB?

> 	(I noticed that Unconfirmed is the only state that uses Route =
Request message instead of route message, is that intended?  Can =
unconfirmed route state only be reached through Route Request messages? =
JWD)
>=20
> Yes. Until a route learned through a RREQ is validated by a =
RREP/RREP_Ack exchange, it is marked as unconfirmed (so that it can't =
erroneously be used until we know it is useful)
>=20
> JWD: My point was that I had to infer this add a bit making this =
explicit and things are much easier for the reader.=20

Done: I=E2=80=99ve added =E2=80=9EThis state only applies to routes =
learned through RREQ messages.=E2=80=9C to the description.

>=20
> 	(this seems like an entry that would always be full 1s on a =
route request if true that should be stated to make things more clear =
JWD)
>=20
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here, I'm assuming that =
prefixlength =3D=3D address length with RREQs?
>=20
> JWD: Yes but even more forceful.  Unless you plan on allowing route =
requests for networks prefixlengths (which I strongly discourage), full =
prefixlengths for RREQs MUST be used.=20

Done.

>=20
> =46rom 4.6.  Multicast Route Message Table:
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(would this ever be in a RREQ? If no then I suggest using words =
similar to =E2=80=9Cif RteMsg is an RREP JWD)
> =20
> It would. RREQs can include the last known sequence number associated =
with TargSeqNum. see 7.1.1.  RREQ Generation:
>=20
>    6.  For TargSeqNum:
>=20
>        *  If an Invalid route exists in the Local Route Set matching
>           TargAddr using longest prefix matching and has a valid
>           sequence number, set TargSeqNum :=3D LocalRoute.SeqNum.
>=20
> JWD: Okay.
>=20
> =46rom 5.  Metrics:
> -----------------------
>=20
> 	AODVv2 enables the use of multiple metric types.  Each route
> 	discovery attempt indicates the metric type which is requested =
for
> 	the route.  Only one metric type may be used in each route =
discovery
> 	attempt.   (Already said this no need to say it again. JWD)
>=20
> I don't quite understand this one=E2=80=93 with the exception of =
=E2=80=9COnly one metric type may be used in each route discovery =
attempt=E2=80=9D, yes,
> the rest of the information in this paragraph may be puzzled together =
using bits and pieces spread across the document=E2=80=93 but previous =
criticism
> (also from me) has been that this is very confusing, tiresome and =
error-prone... Or did I misunderstand your comment here?
>=20
> JWD: I deleted:
> However, routes to a single destination might be requested
>    and created in the Local Route Set for multiple metric types.  The
>    decision of which of these routes to install in the Routing
>    Information Base to use for forwarding is outside the scope of
>    AODVv2.

Done (deleted it too).

>=20
> =46rom 6.1.  Initialization:
> -------------------------------
>=20
> 	Until MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME after its sequence number is reset, =
the
> 	router SHOULD NOT create RREQ or RREP messages.
> 	(Just to be clear one MUST wait 5 mins before starting to =
request any route without a persistent store of the seq num, yes? JWD)
>=20
> Yes... That mini paragraph is a bit redundant & contradictory, isn't =
it? I've taken it out and the "must" in "must wait for =
MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME before it creates any messages" was changed to a =
MUST.
>=20
> JWD: Good=20
> =46rom 6.2.  Next Hop Monitoring:
> ------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(I can=E2=80=99t see how the above would be helpful at all JWD)
>=20
> I'm assuming that "the above" refers to the text you've deleted, not =
the general idea of leveraging external mechanisms to monitor =
connectivity, correct?
>=20
> JWD: Yes.=20

OK cool, then that one=E2=80=99s taken care of as well. :)

>=20
> =46rom 6.6.  Route Discovery, Retries and Buffering:
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(is there some table that lists routes that are being waited on? =
JWD)
>=20
> Currently not, we're reshuffling things in order to make it more clear =
how to do all of that.
>=20
> JWD: Looking forward to seeing that.=20
>=20
> =46rom 6.7.  Processing Received Route Information
> --------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(MAY not MUST? Why wouldn=E2=80=99t one update it according to =
section 6.7.2? JWD)
>=20
> No idea. This is a MUST now.
> =20
> JWD: Good=20
>=20
> =46rom 6.7.1.  Evaluating Route Information:
> --------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(does processing stop here?  It seems like it hsould be that =
isn=E2=80=99t stated. JWD)
>=20
> It does, in both instances. Since the if statements following those =
paragraphs wouldn't match, there are nor no further processing =
instructions for the loop-causing AdvRte, essentially terminating the =
processing procedure. This pattern is employed in different places =
across the document; if that's desired by the WG I can add "Stop =
processing AdvRte" or something similar.
>=20
> JWD: I think an explicit "Stop processing AdvRte" (or whatever =
applicable message) would add clarity as there may be some more =
complicated steps that don't stop right away.

Done.

>=20
> =46rom 6.7.2.  Applying Route Updates:
> --------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(we seem to be missing when the Route Information Base should be =
updated based on the new Local Route Set.  JWD)
>=20
> 4.5.  Local Route Set says:
>=20
>    When the Local Route State is stored separately from the Routing
>    Information Base, routes are added to the Routing Information Base
>    when LocalRoute.State is valid (set to Active or Idle), and removed
>    from the Routing Information Base LocalRoute.State becomes Invalid.
>=20
> To me, the connection to the RIB is more of an issue connected to the =
general architecture of the Local Route Set rather than the nitty gritty =
of detailed update instructions, so I think that section 4.5 is the =
right place for this information...
>=20
> JWD I see you're point. A reminder here or reference to 4.5 would be =
helpful.=20

Done: I=E2=80=99ve added =E2=80=9CFor information on how to apply these =
changes to the Routing Information Base, see Section 4.5.=E2=80=9D

> =20
> =46rom 6.9.1.  Local Route State Changes:
> ------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(it=E2=80=99s not clear to me how the RERR=E2=80=99s are =
identified consider rewording to make it more clear. JWD)
>=20
> I'm not quite sure what' s unclear here=E2=80=93 would something like=20=

>=20
>    o  If a Route Error (RERR) message reporting the route as broken is =
received,
>       either from LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a =
Router
>       Client address, LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to
>       Invalid.
>=20
> improve things?
>=20
> JWD: Something like....
> If a Route Error (RERR) message containing a route, matching a =
LocalRoute  is received, either from LocalRoute.NextHop, or with =
PktSource set to a Router
>       Client address, the matching LocalRoute.State MUST immediately =
be set to Invalid. =20
> =20
> is close but what specifically in a RERR message matches what =
specifically to a LocalRoute to give a match. =20

I=E2=80=99ve reworded this to

   o  LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to Invalid if a Route
      Error (RERR) message is received where:

      *  The sender is LocalRoute.NextHop or PktSource is a Router
         Client address

      *  There is an Address in AddressList which matches
         LocalRoute.Address, and:

         +  The prefix length associated with this Address, if any,
            matches LocalRoute.PrefixLength

         +  The sequence number associated with this Address, if any, is
            newer or equal to LocalRoute.SeqNum (see Section 4.4)

         +  The metric type associated with this Address matches
            LocalRoute.MetricType

, what do you think?

>=20
> 	(Shouldn=E2=80=99t they also be removed from the Route =
Information Base? JWD)
>=20
> No=E2=80=93 Unconfirmed routes can't be used for forwarding, and =
therefore shouldn't be in the RIB in the first place.
>=20
> JWD yep.
> =20
> 7.1.1.  RREQ Generation:
> ----------------------------------
>=20
> 	(perhaps I=E2=80=99m missing a table or something but I don=E2=80=99=
t remember any RREQ table or list being described which i can check if a =
RREQ has been recently sent with associated timers. If there is such a =
table then it should be mentioned here. If there isn=E2=80=99t aon there =
should be. JWD!)
>=20
> The table in question is the Multicast Route Message Table and you're =
absolutely right=E2=80=93 that should be stated explicitly.  We've done =
so now.
>=20
> JWD: good.=20
>=20
> 7.2.3.  RREP Regeneration:
> --------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(This seems like a bad idea to do on the reverse path. It would =
be a good way to attack a network Forward RREQ and drop all RREP. JWD)
>=20
> Wouldn't this attack be possible no matter if we allow RREPs to be =
dropped or not? What am I missing here?
>=20
> JWD: It would be operating correctly as specified but would be hurting =
the network if a router would send all RREQ messages but drop all RREP =
messages. They shouldn't regenerate RREP AND RREQ messages if they =
aren't willing to forward.

True. I suppose the MAYs here correspond to the priorities described in =
6.5 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5>. =
Message Transmission=E2=80=93 if a router simply cannot send a RREP =
because it has reached CONTROL_TRAFFIC_LIMIT, there=E2=80=99s no point =
in regenerating it. So we can=E2=80=99t completely forbid choosing not =
to regenerate, can we?
I=E2=80=99ve reworded the paragraph(s) to

   A received Route Reply message is regenerated toward OrigAddr.  By
   regenerating a RREP, a router advertises that it will forward IP
   packets to TargAddr.

   The RREP SHOULD NOT be regenerated if CONTROL_TRAFFIC_LIMIT has been
   reached.  If approaching the limit, the message should be sent if the
   priorities in Section 6.5 allow it.  Otherwise, the router MUST
   regenerate the RREP.

for now...

> =20
> 7.4.2.  RERR Reception:
> ---------------------------------
>=20
> 	(it=E2=80=99s not clear to me what the point of this invalid =
route is. It doesn=E2=80=99t get used and doesn=E2=80=99t remove any =
existing routes. JWD)
> =20
> The point of that invalid route is to keep the Sequence Number.  One =
point of keeping Sequence Numbers is to avoid processing stale messages =
that might be received after long queuing delays.
>=20
> JWD: It would be useful to have simple statement pointing this out.  =
Invalid routes are retained to avoid processing stale messages.=20

Done.

>=20
> 	(How do we check? It=E2=80=99s not at all clear how this is =
done. JWD! )
>=20
> The word "check" perhaps is misleading, as the check has already taken =
place a few paragraphs above.
> I've reworded the paragraph in question to:
>=20
>    3.  If there are previously Active LocalRoutes that MUST be =
reported,
>        as identified in step 2.:
>=20
>        *  Regenerate the RERR as detailed in Section 7.4.3.
>=20
> , does that resolve the issue?
>=20
> JWD: That helps yes.  My confusion actually came from a bit further =
up.=20
>=20
> If any of the above are false, a matching LocalRoute MUST NOT be
>        made Invalid and the unreachable address MUST NOT be advertised
>        in a regenerated RERR.
> If all of the above are true, the LocalRoute is no longer valid.
>=20
> change to...
> If any of the above are false the address does not match a LocalRoute =
and MUST NOT be processed or regenerated in a RERR.
> If all of the above are true, the LocalRoute which matches the address =
is no longer valid.
>=20

Done.

> JWD: this is actually a really big change in terms of readability and =
understanding IMO.  Please go back and check the language of RREQ and =
RREP in the "to process or not to process sections" and see if the =
language can be updated in a similar way.  The key part is the address =
along with the checks (seqno/metric/previous hop) then matches a =
LocalRoute with attributes. Refer to addresses in the message and =
matching LocalRoutes only after the checks pass otherwise it should just =
be an ignored address.

Done=E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve checked the sections RREQ Reception, RREP =
Reception, Evaluating Route Information, Applying Route Updates and =
Processing Received Route Information and made some small changes:

in Processing Received Route Information:
---------------------------------------------------------

-to use and offers an improvement to existing information, as explained =
in [](#test). The Local Route Set MUST then be updated according to =
[](#update_rte).
+to use and offers an improvement to existing information, as explained =
in [](#test).
+If these checks pass, the Local Route Set MUST be updated according to =
[](#update_rte).


in Evaluating Route Information:
------------------------------------------

-An incoming advertised route (AdvRte) is compared to existing =
LocalRoutes to determine whether the advertised route is to be used to
-update the AODVv2 Local Route Set. The incoming route information MUST =
be processed as follows:
+An incoming advertised route (AdvRte) is compared to existing =
LocalRoutes to determine whether the advertised route is to be used to =
update the AODVv2 Local Route Set. The incoming route information MUST =
be processed as follows:

-    *   If no matching LocalRoute exists, AdvRte MUST be used to update =
the Local Route Set.
+    *   If no matching LocalRoute exists, AdvRte MUST be used to update =
the Local Route Set and no further checks are required.

-    *   If AdvRte is more recent than all matching LocalRoutes, AdvRte =
MUST be used to update the Local Route Set.
-    *   If AdvRte is stale, AdvRte MUST NOT be used to update the Local =
Route Set.
+    *   If AdvRte is more recent than all matching LocalRoutes, AdvRte =
MUST be used to update the Local Route Set and no further checks are =
required.
+    *   If AdvRte is stale, AdvRte MUST NOT be used to update the Local =
Route Set. Ignore AdvRte for further processing.


in RERR Reception:
---------------------------

     *  If the prefix length is different, create a new LocalRoute with =
the unreachable address,
        and its prefix length and sequence number, and set =
LocalRoute.State to Invalid.
+       These Invalid routes are retained to avoid processing stale =
messages.


Best regards,
Lotte Steenbrink

> =20
> 7.4.3.  RERR Regeneration:
> -------------------------------------
>=20
> 	(it=E2=80=99s not clear how we know which localroutes need to be =
reported JWD!
>=20
> again, missing reference here, I've changed that to
>=20
>    2.  For each LocalRoute that needs to be reported as identified in
>        Section 7.4.1:
>=20
> , is that better?
>=20
> JWD: yep=20
>=20
> Kind regards,
> Lotte Steenbrink
>=20
> Thanks for the comments.
>=20
> Justin=20


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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><style type=3D"text/css">body { background: rgba(255, =
255, 255, 255); }</style></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi Justin, Hi all,<div class=3D"">again, thank you for your =
super helpful and detailed reply! Answers inline.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Am =
22.03.2016 um 07:00 schrieb Justin Dean &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bebemaster@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">bebemaster@gmail.com</a>&gt;:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Responses =
inline.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 4:37 PM, Lotte Steenbrink =
<span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">lotte.steenbrink@fu-berlin.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Hello Justin,<div =
class=3D"">thank you very much for your thorough and helpful review. =
We've adopted most of your editorial changes and are currently mulling =
over the larger ones.</div><div class=3D"">Some questions &amp; comments =
for clarification:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=46rom &nbsp;2. Terminology:</div><div =
class=3D"">------------------------------------</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;Local =
Route</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; An entry in the Local =
Route Set. (Local Route Set should have an entry, something simple and =
pointing to the section JWD)</div><div class=3D"">(Later in the document =
LocalRoute is used pick one JWD)</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LocalRoutes are not the same as the =
Local Route set, as they're actually entries of the Set, which is =
explained in section 4.5.&nbsp; Local Route Set. Since LocalRoute is =
used before its explanation (in the &nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;RERR (Route =
Error) definition of section 2), I can see how this is confusing. If my =
co-authors don't protest, I guess we can just eliminate that mention by =
changing "a valid LocalRoute" to "a valid route". Would that resolve =
this issue?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">JWD: This was mostly about introduction of the terms and the =
difference between Local Route Set having a space between "Local" and =
"Route" and an entry being a LocalRoute with no space.&nbsp; I'm happy =
with just adding a reference to the section in which the Local Route Set =
is defined the first time the term is used.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Whoops, I totally missed that! Thanks for the =
clarification, LocalRoute is now space-free throughout the document; =
reference has been added.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=46rom =
&nbsp;3.&nbsp; Applicability Statement:</div><div =
class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------</div></div><=
div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;(This should =
go in the intro JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Which paragraph(s) are you =
referring to here?<div class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">JWD: The deleted text as seen in the diff.&nbsp; <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Although AODVv2 is closely related to AODV =
[RFC3561], and shares some<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; features of DSR =
[RFC4728], AODVv2 is not interoperable with either of<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; those protocols.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; The routing algorithm in AODVv2 MAY be operated =
at layers other than<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the network layer, using =
layer-appropriate addresses.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The diff also shows that I moved/edited =
it to right after the (we jumped right in here) comment.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, and those changes have been adopted (I=E2=80=99=
ve assumed Intro to mean Overview?), I just wanted to make sure I =
understood you correctly there.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">=46rom &nbsp;4.5.&nbsp; Local Route Set:</div><div =
class=3D"">------------------------------------------</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(I=E2=80=99m =
assuming this is here to hint at the possibility of a unified router =
with multiple routing protocols playing nicely together JWD)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yup. Should we be more =
explicit there?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
Yes.&nbsp; Don't make it complicated just mention that other routing =
protocols may also be operating on the same device =
</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>done.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">and it may be a better approach in these cases.<br =
class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
 class=3D""></div><div>with =E2=80=9Eit=E2=80=9C being the division =
between local route set and RIB?</div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>(I noticed that Unconfirmed is the only state =
that uses Route Request message instead of route message, is that =
intended?&nbsp; Can unconfirmed route state only be reached through =
Route Request messages? JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes. Until a route learned through a =
RREQ is validated by a RREP/RREP_Ack exchange, it is marked as =
unconfirmed (so that it can't erroneously be used until we know it is =
useful)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: My point =
was that I had to infer this add a bit making this explicit and things =
are much easier for the reader. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done: I=E2=80=99ve added =E2=80=9EThis state only =
applies to routes learned through RREQ messages.=E2=80=9C to the =
description.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(this seems like =
an entry that would always be full 1s on a route request if true that =
should be stated to make things more clear JWD)</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm not sure I =
understand what you mean here, I'm assuming that prefixlength =3D=3D =
address length with RREQs?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: Yes but =
even more forceful.&nbsp; Unless you plan on allowing route requests for =
networks prefixlengths (which I strongly discourage), full prefixlengths =
for RREQs MUST be used. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46r=
om 4.6.&nbsp; Multicast Route Message Table:</div><div =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(would this ever =
be in a RREQ?  If no then I suggest using words similar to =E2=80=9Cif =
RteMsg is an RREP JWD)</div>&nbsp;<div class=3D"">It would. RREQs can =
include the last known sequence number associated with TargSeqNum. =
see&nbsp;7.1.1.&nbsp; RREQ Generation:</div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;6.&nbsp; =
For TargSeqNum:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp;If an Invalid route exists =
in the Local Route Set matching</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TargAddr using longest prefix matching and has a =
valid</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; sequence =
number, set TargSeqNum :=3D LocalRoute.SeqNum.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
Okay.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=46rom =
5.&nbsp; Metrics:</div><div =
class=3D"">-----------------------</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>AODVv2 enables =
the use of multiple metric types.&nbsp; Each route</div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	=
</span>discovery attempt indicates the metric type which is requested =
for</div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	=
</span>the route.&nbsp; Only one metric type may be used in each route =
discovery</div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>attempt. &nbsp; (Already said this no need to say =
it again. JWD)</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I don't quite understand this one=E2=80=93 with the exception =
of =E2=80=9COnly one metric type may be used in each route discovery =
attempt=E2=80=9D, yes,</div><div class=3D"">the rest of the information =
in this paragraph may be puzzled together using bits and pieces spread =
across the document=E2=80=93 but previous criticism</div><div =
class=3D"">(also from me) has been that this is very confusing, tiresome =
and error-prone... Or did I misunderstand your comment here?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">JWD: I deleted:<br class=3D"">However, routes to a single =
destination might be requested<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; and created in =
the Local Route Set for multiple metric types.&nbsp; The<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; decision of which of these routes to install in =
the Routing<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Information Base to use for =
forwarding is outside the scope of<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; AODVv2.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done (deleted it too).</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">From&nbsp;6.1.&nbsp; =
Initialization:</div><div =
class=3D"">-------------------------------</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>Until =
MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME after its sequence number is reset, the</div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	=
</span>router SHOULD NOT create RREQ or RREP messages.</div></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	=
</span>(Just to be clear one MUST wait 5 mins before starting to request =
any route without a persistent store of the seq num, yes? JWD)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes... That mini =
paragraph is a bit redundant &amp; contradictory, isn't it? I've taken =
it out and the "must" in "must wait for MAX_SEQNUM_LIFETIME before it =
creates any messages" was changed to a MUST.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
Good <br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom 6.2.&nbsp; Next =
Hop Monitoring:</div><div =
class=3D"">------------------------------------------</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(I can=E2=80=99t =
see how the above would be helpful at all JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm assuming that "the above" refers to =
the text you've deleted, not the general idea of leveraging external =
mechanisms to monitor connectivity, correct?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
Yes. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>OK cool, then that one=E2=80=99s taken care of as =
well. :)</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">From&nbsp;6.6.&nbsp; =
Route Discovery, Retries and Buffering:</div><div =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
---</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(is there some =
table that lists routes that are being waited on? JWD)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Currently not, we're =
reshuffling things in order to make it more clear how to do all of =
that.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
Looking forward to seeing that. <br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=46rom =
6.7.&nbsp; Processing Received Route Information</div><div =
class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------------</div><=
/div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(MAY not MUST? =
Why wouldn=E2=80=99t one update it according to section 6.7.2? =
JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">No idea. =
This is a MUST now.</div>&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: Good <br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom =
6.7.1.&nbsp; Evaluating Route Information:</div><div =
class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------------</div><=
div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(does processing =
stop here?&nbsp; It seems like it hsould be that isn=E2=80=99t stated. =
JWD)</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It =
does, in both instances. Since the if statements following those =
paragraphs wouldn't match, there are nor no further processing =
instructions for the loop-causing AdvRte, essentially terminating the =
processing procedure. This pattern is employed in different places =
across the document; if that's desired by the WG I can add "Stop =
processing AdvRte" or something similar.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: I =
think an explicit "Stop processing AdvRte" (or whatever applicable =
message) would add clarity as there may be some more complicated steps =
that don't stop right away.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">From&nbsp;6.7.2.&nbsp; Applying Route Updates:</div><div =
class=3D"">--------------------------------------------------</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(we seem to be =
missing when the Route Information Base should be updated based on the =
new Local Route Set.&nbsp; JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">4.5.&nbsp; Local Route Set =
says:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
style=3D"font-size:13px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px" class=3D"">   =
When the Local Route State is stored separately from the Routing
   Information Base, routes are added to the Routing Information Base
   when LocalRoute.State is valid (set to Active or Idle), and removed
   from the Routing Information Base LocalRoute.State becomes =
Invalid.</pre></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To me, the connection =
to the RIB is more of an issue connected to the general architecture of =
the Local Route Set rather than the nitty gritty of detailed update =
instructions, so I think that section 4.5 is the right place for this =
information...</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD I =
see you're point. A reminder here or reference to 4.5 would be helpful. =
<br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done: I=E2=80=99ve added =E2=80=9CFor information =
on how to apply these changes to the Routing Information Base, see =
Section 4.5.=E2=80=9D</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=46rom 6.9.1.&nbsp; =
Local Route State Changes:</div><div =
class=3D"">------------------------------------------------------</div><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(it=E2=80=99s not =
clear to me how the RERR=E2=80=99s are identified consider rewording to =
make it more clear. JWD)</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm not quite sure what' s unclear =
here=E2=80=93 would something like&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;o &nbsp;If =
a Route Error (RERR) message reporting the route as broken is =
received,</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; either from =
LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a Router</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Client address, LocalRoute.State MUST =
immediately be set to</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Invalid.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">improve things?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
Something like....<br class=3D"">If a Route Error (RERR) message =
containing a route, matching a LocalRoute&nbsp; is received, either from =
LocalRoute.NextHop, or with PktSource set to a Router<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Client address, the matching =
LocalRoute.State MUST immediately be set to Invalid.&nbsp; <br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;<br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">is close but what specifically in a RERR message matches what =
specifically to a LocalRoute to give a match.&nbsp; <br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99ve reworded this to</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;o &nbsp;LocalRoute.State MUST =
immediately be set to Invalid if a Route</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
Error (RERR) message is received where:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * &nbsp;The sender =
is LocalRoute.NextHop or PktSource is a Router</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Client address</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; * &nbsp;There is an Address =
in AddressList which matches</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;LocalRoute.Address, and:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+ &nbsp;The prefix length associated with =
this Address, if any,</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; matches LocalRoute.PrefixLength</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+ &nbsp;The =
sequence number associated with this Address, if any, =
is</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; newer or equal to =
LocalRoute.SeqNum (see Section 4.4)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+ &nbsp;The =
metric type associated with this Address matches</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; LocalRoute.MetricType</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div></div><div>, what do you think?</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>(Shouldn=E2=80=99t they also be removed from the =
Route Information Base? JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">No=E2=80=93 Unconfirmed routes can't be =
used for forwarding, and therefore shouldn't be in the RIB in the first =
place.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD =
yep.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">7.1.1.&nbsp; RREQ Generation:</div><div =
class=3D"">----------------------------------</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>(perhaps I=E2=80=99m missing a table or something =
but I don=E2=80=99t remember any RREQ table or list being described =
which i can check if a RREQ has been recently sent with associated =
timers. If there is such a table then it should be mentioned here. If =
there isn=E2=80=99t aon there should be. JWD!)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The table in question is the Multicast =
Route Message Table and you're absolutely right=E2=80=93 that should be =
stated explicitly.&nbsp; We've done so now.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: =
good. <br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">7.2.3.&nbsp; RREP Regeneration:</div><div =
class=3D"">--------------------------------------</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>(This seems like a bad idea to do on the reverse =
path.  It would be a good way to attack a network Forward RREQ and drop =
all RREP.  JWD)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Wouldn't this attack be possible no matter if we allow RREPs =
to be dropped or not? What am I missing here?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: It =
would be operating correctly as specified but would be hurting the =
network if a router would send all RREQ messages but drop all RREP =
messages. They shouldn't regenerate RREP AND RREQ messages if they =
aren't willing to forward.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>True. I suppose the MAYs here correspond to the =
priorities described in&nbsp;<a class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-6.5" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-aodvv2-13#section-6.5=
" style=3D"font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold; color: black; =
text-decoration: none;">6.5</a><span style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
font-weight: bold;" class=3D"">.  Message Transmission</span>=E2=80=93 =
if a router simply cannot send a RREP because it has reached&nbsp;<font =
size=3D"2" class=3D"">CONTROL_TRAFFIC_LIMIT, there=E2=80=99s no point in =
regenerating it. So we can=E2=80=99t completely forbid choosing not to =
regenerate, can we?</font></div><div><font size=3D"2" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
ve reworded the paragraph(s) to</font></div><div><font size=3D"2" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div><div><font face=3D"Courier" =
size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;A received Route Reply message is =
regenerated toward OrigAddr. &nbsp;By</font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;regenerating a RREP, =
a router advertises that it will forward IP</font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;packets to =
TargAddr.</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"2" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" =
size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;The RREP SHOULD NOT be regenerated if =
CONTROL_TRAFFIC_LIMIT has been</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" =
size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;reached. &nbsp;If approaching the =
limit, the message should be sent if the</font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Courier" size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;priorities in =
Section 6.5 allow it. &nbsp;Otherwise, the router =
MUST</font></div><div><font face=3D"Courier" size=3D"2" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;regenerate the RREP.</font></div></div><div><font size=3D"2" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div><font size=3D"2" =
class=3D"">for now...</font></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">7.4.2.&nbsp; RERR =
Reception:</div><div =
class=3D"">---------------------------------</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>(it=E2=80=99s not clear to me what the point of =
this invalid route is. It doesn=E2=80=99t get used and doesn=E2=80=99t =
remove any existing routes. JWD)</div>&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">The =
point of that invalid route is to keep the Sequence Number.&nbsp; One =
point of keeping Sequence Numbers is to avoid processing stale messages =
that might be received after long queuing delays.<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">JWD: It would be useful to have simple statement pointing =
this out.&nbsp; Invalid routes are retained to avoid processing stale =
messages. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" class=3D"">	</span>(How do we check? =
It=E2=80=99s not at all clear how this is done. JWD! )</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The word "check" perhaps =
is misleading, as the check has already taken place a few paragraphs =
above.</div><div class=3D"">I've reworded the paragraph in question =
to:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;3.&nbsp; If there are previously =
Active LocalRoutes that MUST be reported,</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;as identified in step 2.:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;* =
&nbsp;Regenerate the RERR as detailed in Section =
7.4.3.</div></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">, does that resolve the issue?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: That =
helps yes.&nbsp; My confusion actually came from a bit further up. <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">If any of the above are false, a matching =
LocalRoute MUST NOT be<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
made Invalid and the unreachable address MUST NOT be advertised<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; in a regenerated =
RERR.<br class=3D"">If all of the above are true, the LocalRoute is no =
longer valid.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">change =
to...<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If any of the above are false =
the address does not match a LocalRoute and MUST NOT be processed or =
regenerated in a RERR.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If all of the =
above are true, the LocalRoute which matches the address is no longer =
valid.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div =
class=3D"">JWD: this is actually a really big change in terms of =
readability and understanding IMO.&nbsp; Please go back and check the =
language of RREQ and RREP in the "to process or not to process sections" =
and see if the language can be updated in a similar way.&nbsp; The key =
part is the address along with the checks (seqno/metric/previous hop) =
then matches a LocalRoute with attributes. Refer to addresses in the =
message and matching LocalRoutes only after the checks pass otherwise it =
should just be an ignored address.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Done=E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve checked the sections =
RREQ Reception, RREP Reception, Evaluating Route Information, Applying =
Route Updates&nbsp;and&nbsp;Processing Received Route Information and =
made some small changes:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>in&nbsp;Processing Received Route =
Information:</div><div>---------------------------------------------------=
------</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div>-to use and offers an =
improvement to existing information, as explained in [](#test). The =
Local Route Set MUST then be updated according to =
[](#update_rte).</div><div>+to use and offers an improvement to existing =
information, as explained in [](#test).</div><div>+If these checks pass, =
the Local Route Set MUST be updated according to =
[](#update_rte).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>in&nbsp;Evaluating Route =
Information:</div><div>------------------------------------------</div><di=
v><br class=3D""></div><div><div>-An incoming advertised route (AdvRte) =
is compared to existing LocalRoutes to determine whether the advertised =
route is to be used to</div><div>-update the AODVv2 Local Route Set. The =
incoming route information MUST be processed as follows:</div><div>+An =
incoming advertised route (AdvRte) is compared to existing LocalRoutes =
to determine whether the advertised route is to be used to update the =
AODVv2 Local Route Set. The incoming route information MUST be processed =
as follows:</div></div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div>- =
&nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp; If no matching LocalRoute exists, AdvRte MUST be =
used to update the Local Route Set.</div><div>+ &nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp; If =
no matching LocalRoute exists, AdvRte MUST be used to update the Local =
Route Set and no further checks are required.</div></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div>- &nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp; If AdvRte is more =
recent than all matching LocalRoutes, AdvRte MUST be used to update the =
Local Route Set.</div><div>- &nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp; If AdvRte is stale, =
AdvRte MUST NOT be used to update the Local Route Set.</div><div>+ =
&nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp; If AdvRte is more recent than all matching =
LocalRoutes, AdvRte MUST be used to update the Local Route Set and no =
further checks are required.</div><div>+ &nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp; If AdvRte =
is stale, AdvRte MUST NOT be used to update the Local Route Set. Ignore =
AdvRte for further processing.</div></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>in&nbsp;RERR =
Reception:</div><div>---------------------------</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;* &nbsp;If the prefix =
length is different, create a new LocalRoute with the unreachable =
address,</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and its prefix length and =
sequence number, and set LocalRoute.State to Invalid.</div><div>+ &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; These Invalid routes are retained to avoid processing =
stale messages.</div></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Lotte Steenbrink</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">7.4.3.&nbsp; RERR Regeneration:</div><div =
class=3D"">-------------------------------------</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap" =
class=3D"">	</span>(it=E2=80=99s not clear how we know which =
localroutes need to be reported JWD!</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">again, missing =
reference here, I've changed that to</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;2.&nbsp; =
For each LocalRoute that needs to be reported as identified in</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Section 7.4.1:</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">, is that =
better?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">JWD: yep =
<br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">Kind regards,</div><div class=3D"">Lotte =
Steenbrink</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div>Thanks for the =
comments.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra">Justin <br class=3D""></div></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_0F0EBCCB-CE15-46D3-AF7F-4FC8010A769B--


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From: "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>
To: "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi All,

Has everyone had chance to read and submit the review comments, we would li=
ke to hear comments/concerns before we take these two documents further in =
the chain.

1. VLANs and DLEP draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-an=
d-dlep-01
2. Flow Control draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-=
control-02

-Arun

-----Original Message-----
From: Arun Parashar (arparash)=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:10 PM
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan=
@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org; Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Rick, Stan,

Per comments, VLAN topic is dealt in separate draft and flow control draft =
is updated accordingly.

1. VLANs and DLEP draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-an=
d-dlep-01
2. Flow Control draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-=
control-02

Request comments.

-Arun

-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ashish Dalela (ada=
lela)
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:21 PM
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan=
@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Rick,

Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback on wh=
at is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome, including =
"this is a very bad idea" :-)

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM
To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@=
gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Cc: manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Ashish,

Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My issue w=
ith them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your method is =
not allowed.

However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as you=
 have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without PFC, and =
PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs doesn't work.

I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that covers=
 the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your draft coverin=
g PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension if VLANs are in u=
se.

Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems excell=
ent.

Cheers,

Rick

On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the modem=
. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on =
the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding =
packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (towa=
rds another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarificatio=
n can be added to the next version if that would help.
>
> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class e=
ach. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's =
why it is important to combine them.
>
> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN=
. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.
>
> Thanks
> Ashish
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Ashish,
>
> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from core=
 DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that ar=
e MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP peer=
s.
>
> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like=20
> the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP
> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I propo=
sed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, just=
 an identifying unique sequence of octets.
>
> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC becomes=
 the unique destination identifier.
>
> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:
> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the d=
ocument into two might be clearer for the readers?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>> Hi Rick,
>>
>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VLA=
N 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbors=
, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Ashish
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
>> Cc: manet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>
>> Hi Ashish,
>>
>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.
>>
>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but one=
 thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically sectio=
n 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betwe=
en router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in so=
me way?
>>
>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see this=
 working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or h=
ave I misunderstood what you are proposing?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>>> Hello Stan,
>>>
>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=20
>>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!
>>>
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
>>>
>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=20
>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.
>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=20
>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=20
>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
>>> PFC).
>>>
>>> Request comments.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> -Ashish
>>>
>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>> Ashish,
>>>
>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=20
>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=20
>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.
>>>
>>> Stan
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=20
>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The contro=
l
>>>       and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
>>>       pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the air.=
 If
>>>       desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
>>>       priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
>>>
>>>       Sent from Samsung Mobile
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       -------- Original message --------
>>>       From: Henning Rogge
>>>       Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
>>>       To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
>>>       Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>       Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>>       On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
>>>       <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>       > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 802=
.3 PAUSE
>>>       > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) m=
echanism. In
>>>       > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. Ra=
ther we pause
>>>       > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buffer=
s are full.
>>>       > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scenari=
os today.
>>>
>>>       Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control channel=
?
>>>
>>>       Henning Rogge
>>>
>>>
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       manet mailing list
>>>       manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>       https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
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Subject: [manet] SMARTCOMP 2016 | PH.D. FORUM ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: April 4, 2016
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[Apologies for possible multiple copies]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

             	  Call for Ph.D. Forum Abstracts

                             SMARTCOMP 2016
                  Second IEEE International Conference on
			          Smart Computing

                      http://www.smart-comp.org/

                            May 18-20, 2016
                        St. Louis, Missouri, USA


*******    PH.D. FORUM ABSTRACT SUBMISSION DEADLINE: April 4, 2016
*******

                 Conference Proceedings in IEEE Xplore

	NSF student travel grants available for US based students

------------------------------------------------------------------------


The 2nd IEEE International Conference on Smart Computing (SMARTCOMP
2016) draws upon many application disciplines such as transportation,
energy, environmental protection, resource management, healthcare,
security, banking, entertainment, and social media.

The Ph.D. Forum at SMARTCOMP 2016 provides an opportunity for Ph.D.
students to present their work in progress to the scientific community
and obtain individual feedback from leading researchers in the field.

The Forum will be structured as a poster presentation session by the
students, followed by collective discussions. The student presentations
will be interleaved with speeches by leading researchers, who will
provide their own perspectives on current and future research in the
field, as well as on how to best purse a Ph.D. in this context.

Current Ph.D. students in the early stages of their career are
encouraged to submit a 2-page abstract about their research to be
considered for the Ph.D. Forum. The student should be the sole author,
although contributions of the advisor and others should be acknowledged.

NSF student travel grants are available for US based students.
Instructions on how to apply for the travel grant are available on the
conference website:
http://www.smart-comp.org/nsf-student-travel-grant-applications.html


SUBMISSION GUIDELINES:
Ph.D. Forum abstracts may be no more than 2 pages in length, including
figures, tables, and references.

Submissions will be reviewed by the Ph.D. Forum committee to ensure
quality, relevance, and potential benefit from attendance to the Forum.
There will be no separate registration fee for the Forum. Participating
students will only need to register to the main SMARTCOMP conference.
Authors of accepted submissions are expected to participate in person to
the Forum.

Authors are requested to submit manuscripts in standard IEEE proceedings
format in PDF. All submissions must be typeset in double-column IEEE
format using 10pt fonts on US letter paper, with all fonts embedded.
Submitted abstracts must include the contact information of the authors.
Please make sure you use the latest version of the templates to prepare
your submissions.

The IEEE LaTeX and Microsoft Word templates for conferences can be found
at IEEE Manuscript Templates for Conference Proceedings at
http://www.ieee.org/conferences_events/conferences/publishing/templates.html

Further information for authors may be found at the IEEE Computer
Society Information for Authors for Conference Publishing Services:
http://www.computer.org/web/cs-cps/authors

Submissions must be made via EasyChair:
https://easychair.org/conferences/?conf=smartcomp2016

When submitting, please select the appropriate Track for your paper
(i.e., SMARTCOMP 2016 - PhD Forum).


IMPORTANT DATES:
Abstract submissions:        	April 4, 2016
Notification of acceptance: 	April 12, 2016
Conference date:         	May 18-20, 2016


PHD FORUM COMMITTEE:
Hassan Ghasemzadeh (hassan@eecs.wsu.edu), Washington State University, USA
Sejun Song (songsej@umkc.edu), University of Missouri-Kansas City, USA


From nobody Tue Mar 29 05:28:13 2016
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From: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>
To: "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
Thread-Index: AQHRB0pTS0nD4ts8fk69I2irNQDYGw==
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:27:28 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hi Arun,=0A=
=0A=
I have two concerns regarding your drafts:=0A=
=0A=
1) DLEP isn't finished yet, and so I don't think any extensions will =0A=
proceed until then.=0A=
=0A=
2) I still have worries about the use of VLANs per neighbour.  Given the =
=0A=
single layer-2 requirement of DLEP, I don't see how this will work.=0A=
=0A=
Will you be in Argentina?  If so, I would be happy to talk over my =0A=
concerns face to face.=0A=
=0A=
Cheers,=0A=
=0A=
Rick=0A=
=0A=
On 28/03/16 06:50, Arun Parashar (arparash) wrote:=0A=
> Hi All,=0A=
>=0A=
> Has everyone had chance to read and submit the review comments, we would =
like to hear comments/concerns before we take these two documents further i=
n the chain.=0A=
>=0A=
> 1. VLANs and DLEP draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-=
and-dlep-01=0A=
> 2. Flow Control draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flo=
w-control-02=0A=
>=0A=
> -Arun=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: Arun Parashar (arparash)=0A=
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:10 PM=0A=
> To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffst=
an@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
> Cc: manet@ietf.org; Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>=0A=
> Subject: RE: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi Rick, Stan,=0A=
>=0A=
> Per comments, VLAN topic is dealt in separate draft and flow control draf=
t is updated accordingly.=0A=
>=0A=
> 1. VLANs and DLEP draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-=
and-dlep-01=0A=
> 2. Flow Control draft - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flo=
w-control-02=0A=
>=0A=
> Request comments.=0A=
>=0A=
> -Arun=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ashish Dalela (a=
dalela)=0A=
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:21 PM=0A=
> To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffst=
an@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi Rick,=0A=
>=0A=
> Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback on =
what is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome, includin=
g "this is a very bad idea" :-)=0A=
>=0A=
> Thanks=0A=
>=0A=
> -----Original Message-----=0A=
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=0A=
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM=0A=
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff <ratliffsta=
n@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>=0A=
> Hi Ashish,=0A=
>=0A=
> Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My issue=
 with them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your method i=
s not allowed.=0A=
>=0A=
> However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as y=
ou have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without PFC, an=
d PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs doesn't wor=
k.=0A=
>=0A=
> I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that cove=
rs the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your draft cover=
ing PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension if VLANs are in=
 use.=0A=
>=0A=
> Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems exce=
llent.=0A=
>=0A=
> Cheers,=0A=
>=0A=
> Rick=0A=
>=0A=
> On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
>> Hi Rick,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the mode=
m. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on=
 the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding=
 packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (tow=
ards another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarificati=
on can be added to the next version if that would help.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class =
each. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's=
 why it is important to combine them.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLA=
N. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Thanks=0A=
>> Ashish=0A=
>>=0A=
>> -----Original Message-----=0A=
>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=0A=
>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM=0A=
>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=0A=
>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
>> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Hi Ashish,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from cor=
e DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that a=
re MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP pee=
rs.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more like=
=0A=
>> the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP=0A=
>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I prop=
osed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, jus=
t an identifying unique sequence of octets.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC become=
s the unique destination identifier.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:=
=0A=
>> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the =
document into two might be clearer for the readers?=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Cheers,=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Rick=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
>>> Hi Rick,=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VL=
AN 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbor=
s, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Thanks=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Ashish=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> -----Original Message-----=0A=
>>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]=0A=
>>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM=0A=
>>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=0A=
>>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>=0A=
>>> Cc: manet@ietf.org=0A=
>>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Hi Ashish,=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but on=
e thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically secti=
on 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betw=
een router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in s=
ome way?=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see thi=
s working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or =
have I misunderstood what you are proposing?=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Regards=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Rick=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:=0A=
>>>> Hello Stan,=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow control=
=0A=
>>>> mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late than never!=
=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=0A=
>>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.=0A=
>>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=0A=
>>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=0A=
>>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.=
=0A=
>>>> PFC).=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> Request comments.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> Thanks=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> -Ashish=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]=0A=
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM=0A=
>>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>=0A=
>>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org=0A=
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> Ashish,=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=0A=
>>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=0A=
>>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> Stan=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The cont=
rol=0A=
>>>>        and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never=
=0A=
>>>>        pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the ai=
r. If=0A=
>>>>        desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different=
=0A=
>>>>        priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        Sent from Samsung Mobile=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        -------- Original message --------=0A=
>>>>        From: Henning Rogge=0A=
>>>>        Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)=0A=
>>>>        To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"=0A=
>>>>        Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>>>        Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=0A=
>>>>        <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:=0A=
>>>>        > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 8=
02.3 PAUSE=0A=
>>>>        > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb)=
 mechanism. In=0A=
>>>>        > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. =
Rather we pause=0A=
>>>>        > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buff=
ers are full.=0A=
>>>>        > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scena=
rios today.=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control chann=
el?=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        Henning Rogge=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>>        _______________________________________________=0A=
>>>>        manet mailing list=0A=
>>>>        manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>=0A=
>>>>        https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>=0A=
> _______________________________________________=0A=
> manet mailing list=0A=
> manet@ietf.org=0A=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet=0A=
>=0A=
=0A=


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From: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>, "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>, "manet@ietf.org" <manet@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:12:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Hello Rick,

Arun and I are co-authors. So, let me try to respond to you. The proposal f=
or VLAN came about because we wanted to implement PFC as the flow-control m=
echanism instead of the credit-windowing scheme currently proposed. The rea=
son is that if we separate control and data planes, then holding a TCP wind=
ow in the data plane is very hard to achieve. HW based data planes, don't s=
upport TCP windows. Moreover, PFC is the standard way of dealing with flow-=
control over Ethernet.=20

Now, the issue is that PFC allows only 8 CoS queues, so that would limit us=
 to only 8 neighbors and/or flows. That was perceived as a limitation. Henc=
e the use of VLANs to identify neighbors.

We understand that in current DLEP a single L2 network is assumed between t=
he radios and the radio/router. So, VLANs can be used only between the radi=
o and router, in case there are no VLANs between the radios. These VLANs wi=
ll help us identify multiple neighbors, and PFC + VLAN will help us pause a=
 particular neighbor. If, however, someone feels the need to use multiple V=
LANs between the radios, that would be achieved by VLAN-in-VLAN, and so for=
th.=20

Bottom line, the VLAN proposal is driven by the need for flow-control, usin=
g a standard Ethernet based scheme, because in the control-data plane separ=
ation scenario, we don't have the alternative to use the current credit-win=
dow scheme.

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 5:57 PM
To: Arun Parashar (arparash) <arparash@cisco.com>; manet@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing

Hi Arun,

I have two concerns regarding your drafts:

1) DLEP isn't finished yet, and so I don't think any extensions will procee=
d until then.

2) I still have worries about the use of VLANs per neighbour.  Given the si=
ngle layer-2 requirement of DLEP, I don't see how this will work.

Will you be in Argentina?  If so, I would be happy to talk over my concerns=
 face to face.

Cheers,

Rick

On 28/03/16 06:50, Arun Parashar (arparash) wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Has everyone had chance to read and submit the review comments, we would =
like to hear comments/concerns before we take these two documents further i=
n the chain.
>
> 1. VLANs and DLEP draft -=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-and-dlep-01
> 2. Flow Control draft -=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control-02
>
> -Arun
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Arun Parashar (arparash)
> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:10 PM
> To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org; Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
> Subject: RE: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Rick, Stan,
>
> Per comments, VLAN topic is dealt in separate draft and flow control draf=
t is updated accordingly.
>
> 1. VLANs and DLEP draft -=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-and-dlep-01
> 2. Flow Control draft -=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control-02
>
> Request comments.
>
> -Arun
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ashish Dalela=20
> (adalela)
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:21 PM
> To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Rick,
>
> Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback=20
> on what is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome,=20
> including "this is a very bad idea" :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM
> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Ashish,
>
> Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My issue=
 with them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your method i=
s not allowed.
>
> However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as y=
ou have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without PFC, an=
d PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs doesn't wor=
k.
>
> I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that cove=
rs the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your draft cover=
ing PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension if VLANs are in=
 use.
>
> Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems exce=
llent.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
> On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>> Hi Rick,
>>
>> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the mode=
m. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not seen on=
 the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when forwarding=
 packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the router (tow=
ards another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This clarificati=
on can be added to the next version if that would help.
>>
>> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class =
each. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's=
 why it is important to combine them.
>>
>> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without VLA=
N. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Ashish
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM
>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
>> Cc: manet@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>
>> Hi Ashish,
>>
>> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from cor=
e DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs that a=
re MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the DLEP pee=
rs.
>>
>> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more=20
>> like the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP
>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I prop=
osed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC, jus=
t an identifying unique sequence of octets.
>>
>> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC become=
s the unique destination identifier.
>>
>> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:
>> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the =
document into two might be clearer for the readers?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rick
>>
>> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>>> Hi Rick,
>>>
>>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default VL=
AN 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K neighbor=
s, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Ashish
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
>>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff=20
>>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
>>> Cc: manet@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>
>>> Hi Ashish,
>>>
>>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.
>>>
>>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but on=
e thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically secti=
on 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk betw=
een router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem in s=
ome way?
>>>
>>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see thi=
s working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control), or =
have I misunderstood what you are proposing?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Rick
>>>
>>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
>>>> Hello Stan,
>>>>
>>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow=20
>>>> control mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late tha=
n never!
>>>>
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
>>>>
>>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP=20
>>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.
>>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path=20
>>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are=20
>>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
>>>> PFC).
>>>>
>>>> Request comments.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> -Ashish
>>>>
>>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
>>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>>
>>>> Ashish,
>>>>
>>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I=20
>>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow=20
>>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.
>>>>
>>>> Stan
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)=20
>>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The cont=
rol
>>>>        and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
>>>>        pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the ai=
r. If
>>>>        desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
>>>>        priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
>>>>
>>>>        Sent from Samsung Mobile
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        -------- Original message --------
>>>>        From: Henning Rogge
>>>>        Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
>>>>        To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
>>>>        Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>>        Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>>>>
>>>>        On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
>>>>        <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>>        > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of 8=
02.3 PAUSE
>>>>        > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb)=
 mechanism. In
>>>>        > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded. =
Rather we pause
>>>>        > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the buff=
ers are full.
>>>>        > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control scena=
rios today.
>>>>
>>>>        Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control chann=
el?
>>>>
>>>>        Henning Rogge
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        _______________________________________________
>>>>        manet mailing list
>>>>        manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
>>>>        https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
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References: <842811b9f2ec4385b25bfdc02f6bdb09@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <CAGnRvuoqWqAk8bEsurdYU-546BO=LNtFA1Ywr_qnNyaz9jPNiw@mail.gmail.com> <30lejepapqucojc0oo0juiov.1444920593548@email.android.com> <CALtoyo=0cw3zjRwiMEASO25kOo9jDJEWDggMGDToSWvrGtSWTQ@mail.gmail.com> <6cf459def84e464a92a94a321b9b4adc@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EB381@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <d4c2cfd4507d4644909a72eceba534c2@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EB9B9@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <051ad977f5a5488b9622ccb5ef25883c@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C37EBCA1@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <b0c57bcbb28b4dc587fe53dc5bf769bc@XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com> <59e4135701054951a5b61fef04393dac@XCH-RCD-020.cisco.com> <38A5475DE83986499AEACD2CFAFC3F9801C385E127@tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com> <68edf7efadb04df3b127936b86921284@XCH-RTP-005.cisco.com>
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From: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>
To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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Ashish,


On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com
> wrote:

> Hello Rick,
>
> Arun and I are co-authors. So, let me try to respond to you. The proposal
> for VLAN came about because we wanted to implement PFC as the flow-control
> mechanism instead of the credit-windowing scheme currently proposed. The
> reason is that if we separate control and data planes, then holding a TCP
> window in the data plane is very hard to achieve.


I'm afraid I must have missed something - the original Credit Windowing
draft has no requirement to hold a TCP window in the data plane. I guess
there would be an issue if the DLEP code itself was in the control plane,
which would necessitate control plane/data plane chatter to keep counts
consistent, but you'll have that problem irrespective of the approach,
wouldn't you?

One other point I've neglected to mention - the current Credit Windowing
draft allows a partner to flow-control a single MAC address, while keeping
traffic to other destinations (via the same radio). I don't believe PFC
allows for that level of granularity.

Regards,
Stan



> HW based data planes, don't support TCP windows. Moreover, PFC is the
> standard way of dealing with flow-control over Ethernet.
>
> Now, the issue is that PFC allows only 8 CoS queues, so that would limit
> us to only 8 neighbors and/or flows. That was perceived as a limitation.
> Hence the use of VLANs to identify neighbors.
>
> We understand that in current DLEP a single L2 network is assumed between
> the radios and the radio/router. So, VLANs can be used only between the
> radio and router, in case there are no VLANs between the radios. These
> VLANs will help us identify multiple neighbors, and PFC + VLAN will help us
> pause a particular neighbor. If, however, someone feels the need to use
> multiple VLANs between the radios, that would be achieved by VLAN-in-VLAN,
> and so forth.
>
> Bottom line, the VLAN proposal is driven by the need for flow-control,
> using a standard Ethernet based scheme, because in the control-data plane
> separation scenario, we don't have the alternative to use the current
> credit-window scheme.
>
> Thanks
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Rick Taylor
> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 5:57 PM
> To: Arun Parashar (arparash) <arparash@cisco.com>; manet@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
>
> Hi Arun,
>
> I have two concerns regarding your drafts:
>
> 1) DLEP isn't finished yet, and so I don't think any extensions will
> proceed until then.
>
> 2) I still have worries about the use of VLANs per neighbour.  Given the
> single layer-2 requirement of DLEP, I don't see how this will work.
>
> Will you be in Argentina?  If so, I would be happy to talk over my
> concerns face to face.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rick
>
> On 28/03/16 06:50, Arun Parashar (arparash) wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Has everyone had chance to read and submit the review comments, we would
> like to hear comments/concerns before we take these two documents further
> in the chain.
> >
> > 1. VLANs and DLEP draft -
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-and-dlep-01
> > 2. Flow Control draft -
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control-02
> >
> > -Arun
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Arun Parashar (arparash)
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:10 PM
> > To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff
> > <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> > Cc: manet@ietf.org; Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
> > Subject: RE: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >
> > Hi Rick, Stan,
> >
> > Per comments, VLAN topic is dealt in separate draft and flow control
> draft is updated accordingly.
> >
> > 1. VLANs and DLEP draft -
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-and-dlep-01
> > 2. Flow Control draft -
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control-02
> >
> > Request comments.
> >
> > -Arun
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ashish Dalela
> > (adalela)
> > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:21 PM
> > To: Rick Taylor <rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com>; Stan Ratliff
> > <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> > Cc: manet@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >
> > Hi Rick,
> >
> > Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback
> > on what is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome,
> > including "this is a very bad idea" :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM
> > To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff
> > <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> > Cc: manet@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >
> > Hi Ashish,
> >
> > Okay, I understand that the VLAN's don't extend over the 'air'.  My
> issue with them is between router and modem - as core DLEP stands, your
> method is not allowed.
> >
> > However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, as
> you have already done.  My concern is not "VLANs can be used without PFC,
> and PFC can be used without VLAN", it is that core DLEP and VLANs doesn't
> work.
> >
> > I would much rather have an extension entitled "VLANs and DLEP" that
> covers the VLAN topic in isolation.  And an updated version of your draft
> covering PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extension if VLANs
> are in use.
> >
> > Sorry, I don't mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft seems
> excellent.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Rick
> >
> > On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> >> Hi Rick,
> >>
> >> The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and the
> modem. It doesn't stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is not
> seen on the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when
> forwarding packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the
> router (towards another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This
> clarification can be added to the next version if that would help.
> >>
> >> PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic class
> each. And usage of VLAN alone doesn't imply the use of PFC per VLAN. That's
> why it is important to combine them.
> >>
> >> Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used without
> VLAN. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow control.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Ashish
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM
> >> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff
> >> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> >> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> >> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >>
> >> Hi Ashish,
> >>
> >> Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change from
> core DLEP.  Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by MACs
> that are MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as the
> DLEP peers.
> >>
> >> What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more
> >> like the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP
> >> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00) where I
> proposed the workaround of stating that the MAC address is no longer a MAC,
> just an identifying unique sequence of octets.
> >>
> >> In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC
> becomes the unique destination identifier.
> >>
> >> Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one draft:
> >> Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?  Maybe splitting the
> document into two might be clearer for the readers?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Rick
> >>
> >> On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> >>> Hi Rick,
> >>>
> >>> Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The default
> VLAN 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K
> neighbors, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>>
> >>> Ashish
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Rick Taylor [mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com]
> >>> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM
> >>> To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>; Stan Ratliff
> >>> <ratliffstan@gmail.com>; Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
> >>> Cc: manet@ietf.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ashish,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously I haven't had a chance to completely digest the draft, but
> one thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, specifically
> section 7.  Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over a VLAN trunk
> between router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out at the modem
> in some way?
> >>>
> >>> Given the 'transparent layer-2' requirement of DLEP, how do you see
> this working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for flow control),
> or have I misunderstood what you are proposing?
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Rick
> >>>
> >>> On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:
> >>>> Hello Stan,
> >>>>
> >>>> We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC flow
> >>>> control mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but better late
> than never!
> >>>>
> >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/
> >>>>
> >>>> Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The current DLEP
> >>>> credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP session.
> >>>> This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many data path
> >>>> implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. So we are
> >>>> suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.1Qbb (a.k.a.
> >>>> PFC).
> >>>>
> >>>> Request comments.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> -Ashish
> >>>>
> >>>> *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com]
> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM
> >>>> *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) <adalela@cisco.com>
> >>>> *Cc:* Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>; manet@ietf.org
> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >>>>
> >>>> Ashish,
> >>>>
> >>>> If you'd like to write a proposed DLEP extension using PFC, I
> >>>> encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 flow
> >>>> control mechanism is likely for DLEP.
> >>>>
> >>>> Stan
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
> >>>> <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>        Yes it will and that's why I suggested the use of PFC. The
> control
> >>>>        and data planes will have different priorities. The radio never
> >>>>        pauses the control channel because it is never sent over the
> air. If
> >>>>        desired,  the data packets themselves could be given different
> >>>>        priorities allowing some flows to be selectively paused.
> >>>>
> >>>>        Sent from Samsung Mobile
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        -------- Original message --------
> >>>>        From: Henning Rogge
> >>>>        Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:30)
> >>>>        To: "Ashish Dalela (adalela)"
> >>>>        Cc: manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >>>>        Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
> >>>>
> >>>>        On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)
> >>>>        <adalela@cisco.com <mailto:adalela@cisco.com>> wrote:
> >>>>        > The ideal mechanism for Ethernet flow control is the use of
> 802.3 PAUSE
> >>>>        > frames, which has further been enhanced by the PFC
> (802.1Qbb) mechanism. In
> >>>>        > essence, we don't send credits before packets are forwarded.
> Rather we pause
> >>>>        > the traffic when the traffic cannot be forwarded and the
> buffers are full.
> >>>>        > PFC is widely used in a number of Ethernet flow-control
> scenarios today.
> >>>>
> >>>>        Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not also block the DLEP control
> channel?
> >>>>
> >>>>        Henning Rogge
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>        _______________________________________________
> >>>>        manet mailing list
> >>>>        manet@ietf.org <mailto:manet@ietf.org>
> >>>>        https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > manet mailing list
> > manet@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> manet mailing list
> manet@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Ashish,<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 11:12 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela) =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank=
">adalela@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>Hello Rick,<br>
<br>
Arun and I are co-authors. So, let me try to respond to you. The proposal f=
or VLAN came about because we wanted to implement PFC as the flow-control m=
echanism instead of the credit-windowing scheme currently proposed. The rea=
son is that if we separate control and data planes, then holding a TCP wind=
ow in the data plane is very hard to achieve. </blockquote><div><br></div><=
div>I&#39;m afraid I must have missed something - the original Credit Windo=
wing draft has no requirement to hold a TCP window in the data plane. I gue=
ss there would be an issue if the DLEP code itself was in the control plane=
, which would necessitate control plane/data plane chatter to keep counts c=
onsistent, but you&#39;ll have that problem irrespective of the approach, w=
ouldn&#39;t you?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>One other point I&#39;ve ne=
glected to mention - the current Credit Windowing draft allows a partner to=
 flow-control a single MAC address, while keeping traffic to other destinat=
ions (via the same radio). I don&#39;t believe PFC allows for that level of=
 granularity.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div>Stan</div><=
div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">HW based data=
 planes, don&#39;t support TCP windows. Moreover, PFC is the standard way o=
f dealing with flow-control over Ethernet.<br>
<br>
Now, the issue is that PFC allows only 8 CoS queues, so that would limit us=
 to only 8 neighbors and/or flows. That was perceived as a limitation. Henc=
e the use of VLANs to identify neighbors.<br>
<br>
We understand that in current DLEP a single L2 network is assumed between t=
he radios and the radio/router. So, VLANs can be used only between the radi=
o and router, in case there are no VLANs between the radios. These VLANs wi=
ll help us identify multiple neighbors, and PFC + VLAN will help us pause a=
 particular neighbor. If, however, someone feels the need to use multiple V=
LANs between the radios, that would be achieved by VLAN-in-VLAN, and so for=
th.<br>
<br>
Bottom line, the VLAN proposal is driven by the need for flow-control, usin=
g a standard Ethernet based scheme, because in the control-data plane separ=
ation scenario, we don&#39;t have the alternative to use the current credit=
-window scheme.<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bounces=
@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Rick Taylor<br>
Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 5:57 PM<br>
To: Arun Parashar (arparash) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:arparash@cisco.com">arpa=
rash@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
<br>
Hi Arun,<br>
<br>
I have two concerns regarding your drafts:<br>
<br>
1) DLEP isn&#39;t finished yet, and so I don&#39;t think any extensions wil=
l proceed until then.<br>
<br>
2) I still have worries about the use of VLANs per neighbour.=C2=A0 Given t=
he single layer-2 requirement of DLEP, I don&#39;t see how this will work.<=
br>
<br>
Will you be in Argentina?=C2=A0 If so, I would be happy to talk over my con=
cerns face to face.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Rick<br>
<br>
On 28/03/16 06:50, Arun Parashar (arparash) wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi All,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Has everyone had chance to read and submit the review comments, we wou=
ld like to hear comments/concerns before we take these two documents furthe=
r in the chain.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1. VLANs and DLEP draft -<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-and-dlep-01"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dal=
ela-vlans-and-dlep-01</a><br>
&gt; 2. Flow Control draft -<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control-=
02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
dalela-dlep-flow-control-02</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -Arun<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Arun Parashar (arparash)<br>
&gt; Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:10 PM<br>
&gt; To: Rick Taylor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">=
rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>&gt;; Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a>; Ashish Dalel=
a (adalela) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.com">adalela@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt; Subject: RE: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Rick, Stan,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Per comments, VLAN topic is dealt in separate draft and flow control d=
raft is updated accordingly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1. VLANs and DLEP draft -<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-vlans-and-dlep-01"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dal=
ela-vlans-and-dlep-01</a><br>
&gt; 2. Flow Control draft -<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control-=
02" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
dalela-dlep-flow-control-02</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Request comments.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -Arun<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: manet [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org">manet-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Ashish Dalela<br>
&gt; (adalela)<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:21 PM<br>
&gt; To: Rick Taylor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com">=
rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>&gt;; Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Rick,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sure, that can be done. This draft is to seek the inputs and feedback<=
br>
&gt; on what is the best path for us. Any and all suggestions are welcome,<=
br>
&gt; including &quot;this is a very bad idea&quot; :-)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: Rick Taylor [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoftware=
.com">rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>]<br>
&gt; Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 8:32 PM<br>
&gt; To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.com">a=
dalela@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Ashish,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Okay, I understand that the VLAN&#39;s don&#39;t extend over the &#39;=
air&#39;.=C2=A0 My issue with them is between router and modem - as core DL=
EP stands, your method is not allowed.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; However, it can be allowed in the way you describe via an extension, a=
s you have already done.=C2=A0 My concern is not &quot;VLANs can be used wi=
thout PFC, and PFC can be used without VLAN&quot;, it is that core DLEP and=
 VLANs doesn&#39;t work.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I would much rather have an extension entitled &quot;VLANs and DLEP&qu=
ot; that covers the VLAN topic in isolation.=C2=A0 And an updated version o=
f your draft covering PFC-based flow control, referring to the VLAN extensi=
on if VLANs are in use.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Sorry, I don&#39;t mean to be negative, the PFC part of your draft see=
ms excellent.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 04/03/16 14:20, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Rick,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The usage of the VLAN is limited to that between the router and th=
e modem. It doesn&#39;t stretch to neighbors. In other words, the VLAN is n=
ot seen on the radio network. It is added by the modem and the router when =
forwarding packets to each other, and stripped when then packet exits the r=
outer (towards another router) or the modem (towards another modem). This c=
larification can be added to the next version if that would help.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; PFC based flow-control only gives us 8 neighbors with one traffic =
class each. And usage of VLAN alone doesn&#39;t imply the use of PFC per VL=
AN. That&#39;s why it is important to combine them.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Currently VLANs can be used without PFC, and PFC can be used witho=
ut VLAN. So, separating them will not achieve the key purpose of flow contr=
ol.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;&gt; Ashish<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Rick Taylor [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstormsoft=
ware.com">rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 7:28 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.co=
m">adalela@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;; Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Ashish,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Introducing a VLAN per neighbour is actually quite a big change fr=
om core DLEP.=C2=A0 Destinations (neighbours) in DLEP are distinguished by =
MACs that are MUST be addressable/reachable on the same (V)LAN segment as t=
he DLEP peers.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; What you are proposing with VLAN-per-destination looks a lot more<=
br>
&gt;&gt; like the draft extension I put forward for layer-3 DLEP<br>
&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-taylor-manet-l3-dlep=
-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-taylor-manet-l3-dlep-00</a>) where I proposed the workaround of stating th=
at the MAC address is no longer a MAC, just an identifying unique sequence =
of octets.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; In your case the additional VLAN-Id data item paired with the MAC =
becomes the unique destination identifier.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Might I suggest that you actually have 2 extensions in this one dr=
aft:<br>
&gt;&gt; Per-VLAN destinations, and PFC based flow control?=C2=A0 Maybe spl=
itting the document into two might be clearer for the readers?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 04/03/16 12:26, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Rick,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Yes, one of the proposals is to use a VLAN per neighbor. The d=
efault VLAN 1 will be used for the control plane. That allows us to have 4K=
 neighbors, each distinguished by a unique VLAN ID.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Ashish<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; From: Rick Taylor [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rick@tropicalstorm=
software.com">rick@tropicalstormsoftware.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 5:17 PM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; To: Ashish Dalela (adalela) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisc=
o.com">adalela@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Stan Ratliff<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;; Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com">hrogge@=
gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Ashish,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thank you for this, it looks extremely interesting.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Obviously I haven&#39;t had a chance to completely digest the =
draft, but one thing that leaps out to me is the use of VLAN tagging, speci=
fically section 7.=C2=A0 Are you suggesting that the DLEP session runs over=
 a VLAN trunk between router and modem (somehow) and the VLANs then fan out=
 at the modem in some way?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Given the &#39;transparent layer-2&#39; requirement of DLEP, h=
ow do you see this working with your model of a VLAN per destination (for f=
low control), or have I misunderstood what you are proposing?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Regards<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Rick<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 04/03/16 10:43, Ashish Dalela (adalela) wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello Stan,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; We have submitted a new draft today to describe the PFC fl=
ow<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; control mechanism. Sorry, this was long due on me; but bet=
ter late than never!<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-d=
lep-flow-control/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/doc/draft-dalela-dlep-flow-control/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Here is the quick rationale underlying this draft. The cur=
rent DLEP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; credit window scheme requires credits exchanged over a TCP=
 session.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This is harder to achieve in many scenarios because many d=
ata path<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; implementations are incapable of handling TCP windowing. S=
o we are<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; suggesting an alternative approach that utilizes IEEE 802.=
1Qbb (a.k.a.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; PFC).<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Request comments.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; -Ashish<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *From:*Stan Ratliff [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ratliffstan@=
gmail.com">ratliffstan@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Sent:* Friday, October 16, 2015 2:34 AM<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *To:* Ashish Dalela (adalela) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalel=
a@cisco.com">adalela@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Cc:* Henning Rogge &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hrogge@gmail.com=
">hrogge@gmail.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.or=
g</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; *Subject:* Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Ashish,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; If you&#39;d like to write a proposed DLEP extension using=
 PFC, I<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; encourage you to do so. As Henning mentioned, more than 1 =
flow<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; control mechanism is likely for DLEP.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Stan<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 10:49 AM, Ashish Dalela (adalela)<=
br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.com">adalela@cisco.com=
</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.com">adalela@cisco.com</a>&=
gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes it will and that&#39;s why =
I suggested the use of PFC. The control<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 and data planes will have diffe=
rent priorities. The radio never<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 pauses the control channel beca=
use it is never sent over the air. If<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 desired,=C2=A0 the data packets=
 themselves could be given different<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 priorities allowing some flows =
to be selectively paused.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent from Samsung Mobile<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -------- Original message -----=
---<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date:15/10/2015 18:36 (GMT+05:3=
0)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: &quot;Ashish Dalela (adalel=
a)&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:manet@iet=
f.org">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">mane=
t@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credi=
t Windowing<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 2:25 PM=
, Ashish Dalela (adalela)<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@c=
isco.com">adalela@cisco.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:adalela@cisco.=
com">adalela@cisco.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; The ideal mechanism for Et=
hernet flow control is the use of 802.3 PAUSE<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; frames, which has further =
been enhanced by the PFC (802.1Qbb) mechanism. In<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; essence, we don&#39;t send=
 credits before packets are forwarded. Rather we pause<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; the traffic when the traff=
ic cannot be forwarded and the buffers are full.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; PFC is widely used in a nu=
mber of Ethernet flow-control scenarios today.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Would a 802.3 PAUSE Frame not a=
lso block the DLEP control channel?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Henning Rogge<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________=
________________<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 manet mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.or=
g">manet@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.i=
etf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; manet mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:manet@ietf.org">manet@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet</a><br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
manet mailing list<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

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From: "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>
To: Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com>, "Ashish Dalela (adalela)" <adalela@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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From: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 07:54:57 +0200
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To: "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP Credit Windowing
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On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:33 AM, Arun Parashar (arparash)
<arparash@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Rick,
> Let=E2=80=99s take the case of data plane is handled in asic (which is no=
rmally the
> case), how does asic handle dlep credit windowing exchange credits? This
> problem requires control plane involvement and thereby the chatter betwee=
n
> control/data plane to calculate and sync credits, which is why we are
> proposing to use what is now the standard for ethernet flow control
> (802.1Qbb aka PFC). PFC based schemes don=E2=80=99t have any control plan=
e
> involvement, PFC pause/resume packets are handled at L2 layer itself (a w=
ide
> support of it is already there).

If I remember the draft correctly it does use the PFC frames a bit
different than normal... what guarantee is there that an ASIC can
handle these frames?

Henning Rogge


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From: "Ananth Laxminarasimhan (alaxmina)" <alaxmina@cisco.com>
To: Henning Rogge <hrogge@gmail.com>, "Arun Parashar (arparash)" <arparash@cisco.com>
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Subject: [manet] Document Action: 'Identity-Based Signatures for MANET Routing Protocols' to Experimental RFC (draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05.txt)
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The IESG has approved the following document:
- 'Identity-Based Signatures for MANET Routing Protocols'
  (draft-ietf-manet-ibs-05.txt) as Experimental RFC

This document is the product of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group.

The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Alia Atlas and Deborah
Brungard.

A URL of this Internet Draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-ibs/




Technical Summary

   This document updates RFC7182, which specifies a framework for, and
   specific examples of, integrity check values (ICVs) for packets and
   messages using the generalized packet/message format specified in
   RFC5444.  It does so by defining an additional cryptographic function
   that allows the creation of an ICV that is an identity-based
   signature, defined according to the ECCSI (Elliptic Curve-Based
   Certificateless Signatures for Identity-Based Encryption) algorithm
   specified in RFC6507.

Working Group Summary:

     The document was presented at the WG meeting at 
     IETF’90, and had reasonable discussion both before
     and after this meeting. There were significant 
     expression of support for adoption as WG document,
     a couple of reviews posted after adoption, which were
     addressed. On the author’s initiative, external
     verification of the example provided in Appendix A
     was sought from a crypto-expert.

     WGLC saw positive support for publication, with 
     nobody appearing to be “in the rough"

Document Quality:

     There are existing implementations of this extension 
     mechanism, known to the document shepherd. 

     Dr. Benjamin Smith provided independent verification 
     of the example provided in Appendix A, and is 
     recognized for this in the acknowledgements.

     No media type, nor MIB doctor, review done, as this
     was not needed

     This document contains a downward normative reference
     to the informational RFC 6507. This was explicitly called
     out in the IETF last call.

Personnel:

     The document shepherd is:
          Thomas Clausen

     The responsible Area Director is:
          Adrian Farrel

