From nobody Wed Jun 1 02:54:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CB0D12D098; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 02:53:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Benoit Claise" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160601095358.16155.90619.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 02:53:58 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org, chris.dearlove@baesystems.com, manet@ietf.org, mrm@vmware.com, draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 09:53:58 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The introduction in section 1 needs to mention this message: This revision to RFC 6779 is necessitated by the update to RFC 6130 specified in RFC 7466. Thanks for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06#section-1.1 The MIB doctor review was done by Mike MacFaden. And the rfcdiff between RFC6779 and this document looks about right. Finally, keeping https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/writable-mib-module.html in consideration, I believe this work is clearly justified as it updates an existing MIB module. From nobody Wed Jun 1 07:21:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B5E012D53D for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rfy6cACnyZ_T for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (ukmta2.baesystems.com [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8857D12D1CD for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 07:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,401,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="36368866" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2016 15:21:45 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,401,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="120422800" Received: from glkxh0002v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.33]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 01 Jun 2016 15:21:43 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.197]) by GLKXH0002V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 15:21:42 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Jiazi YI , manet Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished Thread-Index: AQHRurnUJxZ+3Pf6F0etY/0fOqARKZ/Uqg4g Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:21:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] 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11:21:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9311012D0A8; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 11:21:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Stephen Farrell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160601182154.16139.60497.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 11:21:54 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, chris.dearlove@baesystems.com, draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 18:21:54 -0000 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - My review is based on the diff at [1] - The security considerations section doesn't seem to reflect the latest boilerplate. [2] Should it? I'm not making this a discuss as it's a minor change to a MIB and I accept that it's arguable that folks might not update their SNMP security code whilst doing this. But I don't think I've seen this case before (minor update to MIB without changed security boilerplate) so maybe the IESG should chat about it to decide if there's anything to be done here. [1] https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=rfc6779&url2=draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06 [2] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/mib-security From nobody Wed Jun 1 12:04:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D33F12D169; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nn5w12doi7nX; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56C2112D105; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:04:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1742; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1464807856; x=1466017456; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=sqXmVPHPaTwJe480RXbfWM9Z0wKP1EKqEf2BZ2VqQYE=; b=RcSiDr0X4b0zbKEpJjoExwRYZZEORcxo7qLt6f04ZT1shEJguhVTdUcO R+Hu3S+zJKFgYlK72H1/nabZuZbDbaGI1W9q6EmcUYRUy29CuItSzg7NQ tPm+Gj1ilLBFHpmVCzOWHjOSosRicDyh6IQCw3E2iwMYvAs07z8Ygcro3 o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AUAgC/ME9X/4ENJK1dgz1WfQa4B4IPA?= =?us-ascii?q?Q2BeiKFbwKBMzgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhEYBAQQ6PxACAQg2EDIlAgQBDQWILw7BRQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARcFhieETYoaAQSTN4UAAYV/iCCBaY0zhjOJG?= =?us-ascii?q?AEeAQFCgjiBNW4BiTd/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,402,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="108752418" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jun 2016 19:04:15 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com (xch-aln-005.cisco.com [173.36.7.15]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u51J4F65012612 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:04:15 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:04:14 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 14:04:14 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG Thread-Topic: Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHRvDJ9CFMjRTaJCkyR1x/XY1vj8J/VCSGA Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 19:04:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160601182154.16139.60497.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160601182154.16139.60497.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <8F54062C465471488F8C94FC70F95512@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" , "manet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:04:18 -0000 On 6/1/16, 2:21 PM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell" wrote: Stephen: Hi! >- The security considerations section doesn't seem to >reflect the latest boilerplate. [2] Should it? I'm not >making this a discuss as it's a minor change to a MIB and >I accept that it's arguable that folks might not update >their SNMP security code whilst doing this. But I don't >think I've seen this case before (minor update to MIB >without changed security boilerplate) so maybe the IESG >should chat about it to decide if there's anything to be >done here. The variations from the boilerplate are minimal: Boilerplate> ...The support for SET operations in a non-secure environment without proper protection opens devices to attack. ... Implementations SHOULD provide the security features described by the SNMPv3 framework (see [RFC3410]), and implementations claiming compliance=20 to the SNMPv3 standard MUST include full support for authentication and privacy via the User-based Security Model (USM) [RFC3414] with the AES cipher algorithm [RFC3826]. rfc6779bis> ...The support for SET operations in a non-secure environment without proper protection can have a negative effect on network operations. ... Implementations MUST provide the security features described by the SNMPv3 framework (see [RFC3410]), including full support for authentication and privacy via the User-based Security Model (USM) [RFC3414] with the AES cipher algorithm [RFC3826]. I don't have any issues with making the text match. Alvaro. > [2] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/mib-security From nobody Wed Jun 1 12:14:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E50D12B011; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:14:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Kathleen Moriarty" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160601191400.16077.83083.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 12:14:00 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, chris.dearlove@baesystems.com, draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:14:00 -0000 Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I'll wait for the response to Stephen's question as I also noticed the boilerplate wasn't used (SecDir review did too, kinda). I do appreciate the descriptions provided for the threats associated with the read/write read/create objects. Thanks for that. From nobody Wed Jun 1 12:15:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2AC612D50E; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dQj3iVlTAB1S; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AAE6412D1A8; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 12:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68BF5BE33; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:15:20 +0100 (IST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7x7owH6lVC6T; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:15:18 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.87.48.210] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 372DFBE2F; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:15:18 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1464808518; bh=ZJwDgA1iBXMbfvHEpSFVS5KyfC9fYRSuDPdXjH1fz0M=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=RnytARqgNJmkxQXV7VKlukYQ0yefF6jJ2+C/YvEadK7V/b4EqeFp6xPJCXN5zbNdo 0FhgSqG53pf8UxTRMACurEcrlPSiodv0+1yaE8fhvmBWMtVaD1B1hDe0lNfg9kafrs 4ivQkTvYHPdy4TBiM1aH9HWFmBnSV50+PrZ/SJDg= To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , The IESG References: <20160601182154.16139.60497.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <574F3446.5010803@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 20:15:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms050901030605030809040702" Archived-At: Cc: "chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" , "manet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 19:15:24 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms050901030605030809040702 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01/06/16 20:04, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/1/16, 2:21 PM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: >=20 > Stephen: >=20 > Hi! >=20 >> - The security considerations section doesn't seem to >> reflect the latest boilerplate. [2] Should it? I'm not >> making this a discuss as it's a minor change to a MIB and >> I accept that it's arguable that folks might not update >> their SNMP security code whilst doing this. But I don't >> think I've seen this case before (minor update to MIB >> without changed security boilerplate) so maybe the IESG >> should chat about it to decide if there's anything to be >> done here. >=20 > The variations from the boilerplate are minimal: (But represent some arm-wrestling effort between SEC and OPS ads:-) >=20 > Boilerplate> > ...The support for SET operations in a non-secure > environment without proper protection opens devices to attack. >=20 > ... > Implementations SHOULD provide the security features described by th= e > SNMPv3 framework (see [RFC3410]), and implementations claiming > compliance=20 > to the SNMPv3 standard MUST include full support for authentication = and > privacy via the User-based Security Model (USM) [RFC3414] with the A= ES > cipher algorithm [RFC3826]. >=20 >=20 >=20 > rfc6779bis> > ...The support for SET operations in a non-secure > environment without proper protection can have a negative effect on > network operations. >=20 > ... > Implementations MUST provide the security features described by the > SNMPv3 framework (see [RFC3410]), including full support for > authentication and privacy via the User-based Security Model (USM) > [RFC3414] with the AES cipher algorithm [RFC3826]. >=20 >=20 > I don't have any issues with making the text match. Great. Like I said I don't think this is discuss-worthy, but OTOH, if someone's updating their code then that is a good time to update the security stuff too. Cheers, S. >=20 > Alvaro. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> [2] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/mib-security >=20 --------------ms050901030605030809040702 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra C9F2RjGdQZjNALLcW9C3WKTwYII3wBslobmHuPEYE5JaGItmzuKnAW619R1rD/kfoNWC19N3 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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5203412D611 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z5ci2vrZvvpA for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by 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bh=CPpJR2U08lpmLRR9ohl1c5GsvG3FCj2JvU8NV4s/4H4=; b=DUgq28pe3XwQzcoPFsq5Dw+gADi/mtECNkVPdhTCB3CsMaLbtc4yL9UiGkysTl0dmz Y9DGgxa3MQArB9RzkU98no39n3u4ED/RmNIe7iFWh754AJmwjeuKA2GOoTu69z0/bWHH oPB9C9qvylhfUmmpXoFPUJCAeGUKQg8C17Gfrfl7k3qhTGqUfGUMk/US+va8UqvCc82y 4w0KLp3gH+xYOH/D0jDryJSESt6IaSJHsX6QTKrsGK6Rr6heyxW+krpvySxsxvl5/irf 2DPDMNftSH0NFCmeswxzhjaR82mGTMpt/qeYKUUybWUMkl/iJBCI/Ck4Hr0ENaFAUlX6 AM2g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKeWaMiX1aRxKzbSmIdWoF+aSQI4HvZNsngN8UfUDPQaV4Vd0BaS+AY5Khq9rGTwRF9NY798qdCi6fPGQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.46.5.194 with SMTP id 185mr2695936ljf.65.1464814732753; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 13:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.77.4 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 13:58:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:58:52 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: MUVKpECxNlVW6IkH0hyEULnww3Q Message-ID: From: Jiazi YI To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a6aaccec1cc05343dc157 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2016 20:58:58 -0000 --001a114a6aaccec1cc05343dc157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > I will at some point find my editorial comments. > Thanks very much. > > > While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the > SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. > In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR. The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators support source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messages. best Jiazi > > > We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have > long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about thos= e > links, they can be chosen by pot luck. > > > > (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are > not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 > chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) > > > > So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link could, > then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about > convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval= .) > If not, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like a= ny > other. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2= =80=99s > the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. > > > > You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on > scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic > TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where > there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the probl= em case > here. > > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence Laboratories * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI > *Sent:* 30 May 2016 22:25 > *To:* manet > *Subject:* [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > **** **WARNING ****** > EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. > > > > Hi all, > > > > The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got > valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! > > > > Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon wit= h > following updates: > > > > - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite. > > > > - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive and > reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact > interoperability. > > > > - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL. > > > > - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is > related to reactive/proactive calculation also) > > > > - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm > > > > - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on > multipath calculation. As indicated in > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038.html , with > non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this has been > reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm used, we can > put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay attention to > it, so that new issues can be reported. > > > > regards > > > > Jiazi > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > --001a114a6aaccec1cc05343dc157 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris,=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (U= K) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find my editorial comme= nts.


Thanks very muc= h.
=C2=A0=C2=A0

<= /span>

=C2=A0

While the below is generally as discussed, I= don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern.



In fac= t, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn'= t imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the MP-OLSR r= outers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR.=C2=A0
The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise = SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators = support source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messa= ges.=C2=A0

best

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=

=C2=A0

We have some routers putting out infrequent = TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inh= erently different about those links, they can be chosen by pot luck.

=C2=A0

(Example, four routers in a square, all side= s are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Eac= h link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.)<= /p>

=C2=A0

So why can we accept some links having long = durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhe= re? (If worried about convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then co= nsider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like any other. And may= have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situ= ation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

=C2=A0

You note simulations done. But what simulati= ons have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility = such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not pi= cked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher De= arlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_____________________________________________________= _____________________

T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194<= /a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, = Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office= : Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished<= u>

=C2=A0

= =C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either f= rom an external partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether= you should click on any links, open any attachments or reply.<= br> For information regarding = Red Flags that you = can look out for in emails you receive, click here.
If you feel the email is s= uspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***<= br> EXTERNAL= EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Hi all,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has= finished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= u>

=C2=A0

Based on the comments received, a new revision will = be submitted soon with following updates:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the style more consistent with o= ther OLSRv2-RFC suite.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the reactive multipath calculati= on optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modi= fication won't impact interoperability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the generation/update of Mult= i-path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of fp and fe in the m= ultipath Dijkstra algorithm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chris raised the concern about impact= partial topology map on multipath calculation. As indicated in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038= .html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this ha= s been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion to it, so that new issues can be reported.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************


--001a114a6aaccec1cc05343dc157-- From nobody Wed Jun 1 22:17:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2EE12D0DE for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:17:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=herberg.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DoembDdzOfBQ for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A9ED12B020 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id k19so23427528ioi.3 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 22:17:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=n5DBQwz2wWsVjHYGaM1CMZBzdu5+werlxuEvbTmQz6g=; b=EZHWcAeM+RJFINBhQSw3xBM14tOXidKcLtwwqRtYMtG0EXBWRbqlKfg4Okra0FKEm6 TC5N5mu1/0jhFssL8XPZwNOu3MAXuc1jF0/rt87gCcloBIQ43MsVe+jfyknKhKmf1enU 5/VEGZnmujio88v+D3J1W7agQ6rzglUnTjCGc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=n5DBQwz2wWsVjHYGaM1CMZBzdu5+werlxuEvbTmQz6g=; b=gWE2RXKnZrhOQml65ozjuRTljcXiCJ0kFMcxGhnXten9+/quaVAMZTk4rh21aSDQZL mD3mSKucrGc75Sn9DkUMrEO2cQ1mb4QG5fdAyfJy8+gmxHoeeUWU5Cl+/e+4DrM/USp3 7tGzKEVLTf/tpgKn69r61D98mV2xamT+B5hf1SEtga5s/zqamYuZz09ggX0hrjYVptfi K9lif6rSLQuywi/itULPceyuLVzHXrI/GiuBhMvi5dKOHu9rGcetOK8+1c5vxuLUPmde F6kA+HVyEb6ul/62d9lpmDTC1JJuk9L9M6TE3jtNfJysNJLe4GxrdNIKj7w7Fl3ONiDP T89g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI7shnzkho0zo9S5yrXxlQknFhbVv8wIPZ79zkPRqsNMywY6YlWkaVKz0y/fRKEgVYihfD/gmhx5MKB6g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.180.11 with SMTP id d11mr1137834iof.151.1464844650126; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 22:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.86.146 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:17:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <574F3446.5010803@cs.tcd.ie> References: <20160601182154.16139.60497.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <574F3446.5010803@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:17:30 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: Stephen Farrell Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "chris.dearlove@baesystems.com" , "manet@ietf.org" , "draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org" , The IESG Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 05:17:35 -0000 Stephen, I have no concerns with matching the text to the boilerplate. There is one extra paragraph in addition to the minimal differences that Alvaro pointed out: "MANET technology is often deployed to support communications of emergency services or military tactical applications. In these applications, it is imperative to maintain the proper operation of the communications network and to protect sensitive information related to its operation. Therefore, it is RECOMMENDED to provide support for the Transport Security Model (TSM) [RFC5591] in combination with TLS/DTLS [RFC6353]." I am fine with removing this also to match the boiler plate 100%. Best regards Ulrich On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > > On 01/06/16 20:04, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: >> On 6/1/16, 2:21 PM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell" >> > stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: >> >> Stephen: >> >> Hi! >> >>> - The security considerations section doesn't seem to >>> reflect the latest boilerplate. [2] Should it? I'm not >>> making this a discuss as it's a minor change to a MIB and >>> I accept that it's arguable that folks might not update >>> their SNMP security code whilst doing this. But I don't >>> think I've seen this case before (minor update to MIB >>> without changed security boilerplate) so maybe the IESG >>> should chat about it to decide if there's anything to be >>> done here. >> >> The variations from the boilerplate are minimal: > > (But represent some arm-wrestling effort between SEC > and OPS ads:-) > >> >> Boilerplate> >> ...The support for SET operations in a non-secure >> environment without proper protection opens devices to attack. >> >> ... >> Implementations SHOULD provide the security features described by the >> SNMPv3 framework (see [RFC3410]), and implementations claiming >> compliance >> to the SNMPv3 standard MUST include full support for authentication and >> privacy via the User-based Security Model (USM) [RFC3414] with the AES >> cipher algorithm [RFC3826]. >> >> >> >> rfc6779bis> >> ...The support for SET operations in a non-secure >> environment without proper protection can have a negative effect on >> network operations. >> >> ... >> Implementations MUST provide the security features described by the >> SNMPv3 framework (see [RFC3410]), including full support for >> authentication and privacy via the User-based Security Model (USM) >> [RFC3414] with the AES cipher algorithm [RFC3826]. >> >> >> I don't have any issues with making the text match. > > Great. Like I said I don't think this is discuss-worthy, > but OTOH, if someone's updating their code then that is > a good time to update the security stuff too. > > Cheers, > S. > >> >> Alvaro. >> >> >> >>> [2] https://trac.tools.ietf.org/area/ops/trac/wiki/mib-security >> > From nobody Wed Jun 1 22:22:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC5F812D166 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:22:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=herberg.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 53mQuP5nRKd1 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x231.google.com (mail-io0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B1C512B068 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x231.google.com with SMTP id o189so26408899ioe.2 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 22:22:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=dF1zDOoJmCC6QpXxIzo/AXT2d9Xnep5ze7DtP8mh5XI=; b=PEeH/72XNHfjV8krqi0pMDlwKv+eRuBfVq5XNbwRBH09wqredTzKyAdClYYcGhL/f3 BNVFy1epc2RJuXIrnWgC9wYitAOBvZmFz4Q55Wk0+pTEAIcqFY34fynerbnsGTMLDPJU qMsyGaTGxUJ+ncjzGnZ3AcYyBb08wxg7d+LQI= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=dF1zDOoJmCC6QpXxIzo/AXT2d9Xnep5ze7DtP8mh5XI=; b=CS1AlnML1k1kpLOUVsKx1JriKcm82cHbdvAwdmZaAMJi5BCMWZSvo5xzUmeMt9I1FS JDCEjX91ntx5MDRQ4qxMAmAugy2feFWbH+ClMCOZBCQ8wX9n58XWY2QvU77UW3iiz2uM ydOr45H1F3NzMCmUseavCcf6mv90qJ0dt1UX9SXBo8XM2+OC3xZUHz7nw3W49y0JMxfk VWDvy7bADQBdt35L2XYU5gc6ZFaf2hOauZVlTRaJDwxt9HMCxwN81lJlIYA1smeHwy6d +wnA+xWa2KzpwcYDaIEtovoCFi+LGb3d/N5QXzqOvuhxtMx9imkQCLIMoG0++aCJzdb8 tyYw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK+WbLWeSz08jR2MagY781AyPnpJOaZirPu6dVPl0y5Fx8CI3KvonfueomSQnzHWLz7AfVQNzFDn5QP9w== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.180.11 with SMTP id d11mr1151770iof.151.1464844962920; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 22:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.86.146 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:22:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160601095358.16155.90619.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20160601095358.16155.90619.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:22:42 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: Benoit Claise Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org, Christopher Dearlove , manet@ietf.org, Michael MacFaden , The IESG , draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 05:22:46 -0000 Benoit, thanks, I have added that sentence after the first sentence in section 1.1 (assuming that this is where you wanted to add it). Best regards Ulrich On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 2:53 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: > Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > The introduction in section 1 needs to mention this message: This > revision to RFC 6779 is necessitated by the update to RFC 6130 specified > in RFC 7466. > > Thanks for > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06#section-1.1 > > The MIB doctor review was done by Mike MacFaden. > And the rfcdiff between RFC6779 and this document looks about right. > > Finally, keeping > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/writable-mib-module.html in > consideration, I believe this work is clearly justified as it updates an > existing MIB module. > > From nobody Wed Jun 1 22:25:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CCDB12B03E for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:25:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=herberg.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7xE0veG_7gM0 for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E35912D55D for ; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x234.google.com with SMTP id o189so26449049ioe.2 for ; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 22:25:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc; bh=q/fZzyzE+xpqQeQaHwMPF+BPawN1kHk/IgrodBko+E4=; b=h+4pjE/OU7S2BMg7RPpRTWRocgd56wmCk7yWnEHoZgbTkux/I/srEzH3S2vD6z4gQg Jvq//LLnRcMLtvIMoXT8XbK71hDEiNXGijaHRJk7hAZwhVXGSUzqvdFGBRcdGCtd8EkV fs+mL6XV3gERSWjpN3RcvuMtwyaAacG1Xt91E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc; bh=q/fZzyzE+xpqQeQaHwMPF+BPawN1kHk/IgrodBko+E4=; b=ifQExI5fZ13p/idccjUg7vtBOm7yrQ0TZ5tmaz7ysgG1jLksj3chS040JBn6oKk8zl KS1R1g7xqMlxdJiqlFoehtjA8pNvn6MEoJ6sVF6lckZeqdQAVkV4dBUWGSIiuZVEQcGn p7HMiZeUJfw/6wgkBEKZoqm48tANSCjshXsJqT7Z454UjA1pLDeOngEdhvIF7OrpADS3 xgU9M0wJmhYGOh+KwlcTgPiuEXOpXM0zhlhBDe81mvP5VwChl49uj9dOZYWo6zUuYtm3 rhdxOu49Z0P0+OJqdgQMf/vDYTW4ZDrIP4pWTOJGYD+9vthJxY38HMR5kpoczH+B1HQC zd5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJZS968GhTKWxY/IJSzUjR3zsRvTcWec+sX8dpG9hCTZRbWIj9CIf165YX7MOlRDZG8wt8wSXy0Aos+cw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.3.18 with SMTP id 18mr1266178iod.40.1464845144721; Wed, 01 Jun 2016 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.36.86.146 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:25:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20160601191400.16077.83083.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <20160601191400.16077.83083.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:25:44 -0700 Message-ID: From: Ulrich Herberg To: Kathleen Moriarty Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org, Christopher Dearlove , manet@ietf.org, The IESG , draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 05:25:51 -0000 Kathleen, I wouldn't go as far as saying that "the boilerplate wasn't used"; there was only a minor difference to the boilerplate. I am not sure where it came from. We copied that section from RFC6779, so my only guess is that the boilerplate has changed since then (but I haven't verified). Either way, I have prepared a new revision that uses the same text as in the boilerplate. Best regards Ulrich On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for > draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this > introductory paragraph, however.) > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I'll wait for the response to Stephen's question as I also noticed the > boilerplate wasn't used (SecDir review did too, kinda). > > I do appreciate the descriptions provided for the threats associated with > the read/write read/create objects. Thanks for that. > > From nobody Wed Jun 1 22:31:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02A812B020; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:30:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dWK5V2DujaID; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aer-iport-4.cisco.com (aer-iport-4.cisco.com [173.38.203.54]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BBB112B03E; Wed, 1 Jun 2016 22:30:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1671; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1464845455; x=1466055055; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date: mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=h7w6fZanmNJRv2ySK5egPbeC7G79fkchWgoFcsnyoZk=; b=koPKxQfwSnfFXRXUAuOjor2fJtyKeG49DzWCqx/fxTuKfMRt42VijBM5 cFVBsxRJIPqnNJ3B02oDPyg0AEHTs5feR9x9KU52UmAiM4LbpovBh66bi hsTYdqm7q57707mg687CgsPXTeorgMIz4/54iOUdQ1eTUS8OgbEw+zF7/ M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,404,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="637791665" Received: from aer-iport-nat.cisco.com (HELO aer-core-3.cisco.com) ([173.38.203.22]) by aer-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Jun 2016 05:30:52 +0000 Received: from [10.60.67.86] (ams-bclaise-8915.cisco.com [10.60.67.86]) by aer-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u525UqBl028495; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 05:30:52 GMT To: Ulrich Herberg References: <20160601095358.16155.90619.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Benoit Claise Message-ID: <9ef27b05-2398-2d30-8715-4e9a36dd8ad7@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 07:30:52 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org, Christopher Dearlove , manet@ietf.org, Michael MacFaden , The IESG , draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 05:30:59 -0000 Thank you Ulrich. Regards, B. > Benoit, > > thanks, I have added that sentence after the first sentence in section > 1.1 (assuming that this is where you wanted to add it). > > Best regards > Ulrich > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 2:53 AM, Benoit Claise wrote: >> Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> The introduction in section 1 needs to mention this message: This >> revision to RFC 6779 is necessitated by the update to RFC 6130 specified >> in RFC 7466. >> >> Thanks for >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06#section-1.1 >> >> The MIB doctor review was done by Mike MacFaden. >> And the rfcdiff between RFC6779 and this document looks about right. >> >> Finally, keeping >> https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/writable-mib-module.html in >> consideration, I believe this work is clearly justified as it updates an >> existing MIB module. >> >> > . > From nobody Thu Jun 2 01:46:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 322B112D639 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:46:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5IzwRjE-90hh for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (ukmta2.baesystems.com [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EABC012D0F8 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 01:46:00 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,405,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="36397170" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2016 09:46:00 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,405,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="120519699" Received: from glkxh0003v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.34]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 02 Jun 2016 09:45:59 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.197]) by GLKXH0003V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 09:45:58 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Jiazi YI Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished Thread-Index: AQHRurnUJxZ+3Pf6F0etY/0fOqARKZ/Uqg4ggABgiACAANRKcA== Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 08:45:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: 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dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id evO0kg04TMD6; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 06:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3FC912D194; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 06:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n63so36447540qkf.0; Thu, 02 Jun 2016 06:34:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=/lagJSoD3nqpLAdg5+v3hp/dQtrZKXPfaq++0oE7JGc=; b=VDSvihAawaz0/4H24/sXOt3dJ+JOk/O3LXVl7a60ndjhtRQ0OUS2dLNLfa6UCpSVsv 9zXXNjWYJuPBuzdtFYMD58VHo8AKXJycG0HyT/w3GXveSxvMAcWhcJlbS+vRO8m8+HLz 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[209.6.124.204]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b188sm1685788qkg.8.2016.06.02.06.34.39 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 02 Jun 2016 06:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (12H143) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2016 09:34:38 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <074A9E01-07E5-4AE1-8447-7A9ABB883E89@gmail.com> References: <20160601191400.16077.83083.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Ulrich Herberg Archived-At: Cc: "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , Christopher Dearlove , "manet@ietf.org" , The IESG , "draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Kathleen Moriarty's No Objection on draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 13:34:53 -0000 Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 2, 2016, at 1:25 AM, Ulrich Herberg wrote: > > Kathleen, > > I wouldn't go as far as saying that "the boilerplate wasn't used"; > there was only a minor difference to the boilerplate. I am not sure > where it came from. We copied that section from RFC6779, so my only > guess is that the boilerplate has changed since then (but I haven't > verified). Either way, I have prepared a new revision that uses the > same text as in the boilerplate. Thanks for using the updated boilerplate. Best regards, Kathleen > > Best regards > Ulrich > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Kathleen Moriarty > wrote: >> Kathleen Moriarty has entered the following ballot position for >> draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-06: No Objection >> >> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all >> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this >> introductory paragraph, however.) >> >> >> Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html >> for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >> >> >> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ >> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> COMMENT: >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> I'll wait for the response to Stephen's question as I also noticed the >> boilerplate wasn't used (SecDir review did too, kinda). >> >> I do appreciate the descriptions provided for the threats associated with >> the read/write read/create objects. Thanks for that. >> >> From nobody Thu Jun 2 08:28:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06DFB12D76A for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 08:28:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FROM_MISSP_DKIM=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KnNaa0AdMoVg for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 08:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mxbk.iit.cnr.it (mxbk.iit.cnr.it [146.48.98.159]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4BB612D59E for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 08:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from turig.iit.cnr.it (turig.iit.cnr.it [146.48.98.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mxbk.iit.cnr.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7E4B5C0B91 for ; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 17:28:11 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 17:34:01 +0200 From: Elisabetta Biondi To: manet@ietf.org Message-ID: <575051e9.Cr2AhZqLRAoZtp6O%chants16_publicity@iit.cnr.it> User-Agent: Heirloom mailx 12.4 7/29/08 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [manet] ACM CHANTS 2016 (colocated with ACM MobiCom'16): Call for Papers and Demos - Deadline extended X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 15:28:21 -0000 =============================================================================== * *** NEW SUBMISSION DEADLINE: June 23, 2016 *** * Please register your paper early, updates are possible until the deadline! =============================================================================== =============================================================================== ACM CHANTS 2016 - 11th Workshop on Challenged Networks co-located with ACM MobiCom 2016 October 7, 2016, New York, USA www.acm-chants.org =============================================================================== =============================================================================== Challenged networks comprise those situations where communication is desired, but traditional Internet architectures fail to provide it effectively. Such networks may be characterized by intermittent connectivity, a heterogeneous mix of nodes, frequent nodal churn, and widely varying network conditions. Examples of challenged networks include deployments in rural and remote areas, networks to support emergency response operations, inter-planetary networks, sensor and wildlife monitoring networks, underwater networks, road vehicle networks, and, more recently, networks of micro aerial vehicles. The applications of challenged networks range from time-critical communications such as for disaster relief to delay-tolerant transmission in poorly connected regions or where censorship should be counteracted. However, challenged networking has also found many applications in everyday settings, for which they were not initially conceived, such as opportunistic networking supporting data-centric communications, traffic offloading from cellular networks, mobile cloud/edge computing, opportunistic and participatory sensing, challenged IoT. The increasing availability of wireless communications in embedded devices as well as integration of technologies such as Wi-Fi direct on Android platforms and LTE's D2D (device-to-device) communication on general purpose mobile devices, will further push the development of challenged networking solutions. Challenged networking has also chartered new directions for inter-disciplinary research, e.g., applying findings from social networks and network science. This workshop builds on the success of the ten previous CHANTS workshops, and WDTN 2005, and aims to stimulate research on the most novel topics of challenged networking research. This year's edition encourages submission of theoretical and experimental work (including studies of real deployment), with a primary interest in the **new directions of challenged networking such as mobile cloud/mobile edge computing, IoT, mobile data offloading, and challenged SDN**. The workshop seeks original work presented in the form of research papers describing new research approaches and results, as well as demo submissions. Highly disruptive work-in-progress and position papers are also welcome, provided they focus on particularly innovative, out-of-the-box, solutions or applications for challenged networks. All papers shall be forward-looking, describe their relationship to existing work, and shall argue their impact and implications for ongoing or future research. Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: - Delay/disruption-tolerant networks (DTNs), opportunistic communication and computing - Architecture, design, and implementation of communication systems for challenged networks - Modeling, analysis, and characterization of challenged networks and protocols - Challenged networking techniques for mobile cloud computing - Mobile data offloading via challenged networks - Challenged networking techniques for participatory and opportunistic sensing - Challenged networking in the Internet of Things - Big data analytics in challenged networking - Software-defined networking in challenged environments - Security/trust/privacy concerns and solutions in challenged networks - Energy-efficient communication in challenged networks - Information centric and content-centric networking in challenged networks - Real-world mobility trace collection, analysis, and modeling for challenged environments - Network science methods for challenged networks - Network coding in challenged networks - Novel challenged networking systems (e.g., networks of micro aerial vehicles) - Real deployment and case studies in various stages of use - Disrupted scenarios for challenged networks (e.g., disaster relief and emergency management) - Daily use applications (e.g., mobile social networking, crowdsourcing, censorship evasion, sensor networks, smart cities) - Test and simulation tools for evaluating challenged network systems - Configuration, management, and monitoring of challenged networks. PAPER FORMAT AND SUBMISSION INSTRUCTIONS ---------------------------------------- Submitted papers must be no longer than 6 pages, and should adhere to the standard ACM conference proceedings format. Demo proposals (to be published as part of the proceedings) must not be longer than 2 pages plus 1 page description of the precise setup and requirements (the 1-page setup description will not be published in the proceedings). Reviews will be single-blinded. Papers should neither have been published elsewhere nor being currently under review by another conference or journal. EDITORIAL FOLLOW-UPS -------------------- Extended versions of the selected workshop papers will be considered for possible fast track publication on the Computer Communications Journal (Elsevier), in a special section on Challenged Networks. IMPORTANT DATES --------------- - Submission Deadline (extended): 23 June 2016 - Acceptance Notification: 22 July 2016 - Camera Ready Due: 5 August 2016 - Workshop: 7 October 2016 PROGRAM COMMITTEE CHAIRS ------------------------ Chiara Boldrini (IIT-CNR, Italy) Marcelo Dias de Amorim (UPMC and CNRS, France) TECHNICAL PROGRAM COMMITTEE --------------------------- Kevin Almeroth (UC-Santa Barbara, USA) Mostafa Ammar (Georgia Institute of Technology, USA) Fehmi Ben Abdesslem (SICS Swedish ICT, Sweden) Guohong Cao (The Pennsylvania State University, USA) Marco Cello (Nokia Bell Labs) Vania Conan (Thales Communications & Security, France) Luis Costa (Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro, Brazil) Do Young Eun (North Carolina State University, USA) Kevin Fall (Carnegie Mellon University, USA) Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) Domenico Giustiniano (IMDEA Networks Institute, Spain) Tristan Henderson (University of St Andrews, UK) Andrea Hess (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) Pan Hui (Hong Kong Unive. of Science and Technology) Karin Anna Hummel (JKU Linz, Austria) Mohan Kumar (Rochester Institute of Technology, USA) Kyunghan Lee (UNIST, Korea) Anders Lindgren (SICS Swedish ICT, Sweden) Mirco Musolesi (University College London, UK) Katia Obraczka (UC Santa Cruz, USA) Melek Onen (Eurecom, France) Joerg Ott (Technische Universitat Munchen, Germany) Elena Pagani (Universita degli Studi di Milano, Italy) Andrea Passarella (IIT-CNR, Italy) Eric Rozner (IBM Research, USA) Pavlos Sermpezis (FORTH, Greece) Thrasyvoulos Spyropoulos (Eurecom, France) Stavros Toumpis (Athens University of Economics and Business, Greece) Thierry Turletti (INRIA, France) Yu Wang (University of North Carolina at Charlotte, USA) Eiko Yoneki (University of Cambridge, UK) Xiaolan Zhang (Fordham University, USA) WEB CHAIR --------- Fehmi Ben Abdesslem (SICS Swedish ICT, Sweden) PUBLICITY CHAIR --------------- Elisabetta Biondi (IIT-CNR, Italy) STEERING COMMITTEE ------------------ Kevin Almeroth (UC Santa Barbara, USA) Kevin Fall (Carnegie Mellon University, USA) Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) Jorg Ott (Technische Universitat Munchen, Germany) Andrea Passarella (IIT-CNR, Italy) From nobody Thu Jun 2 09:08:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 229F112D534; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 09:08:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Meeting Session Request Tool\"" To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160602160809.8789.75336.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 09:08:09 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org, manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] manet - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 96 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 16:08:09 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Justin Dean, a Chair of the manet working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Justin Dean Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: 6lo pim homenet roll gaia rtgarea Second Priority: lwig pce spring i2rs rtgwg Third Priority: idr anima netconf Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Thu Jun 2 10:51:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA6512B047; Thu, 2 Jun 2016 10:51:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160602175131.8813.63847.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 10:51:31 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-07.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2016 17:51:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF. Title : Definition of Managed Objects for the Neighborhood Discovery Protocol Authors : Ulrich Herberg Robert G. Cole Ian D Chakeres Thomas Heide Clausen Filename : draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-07.txt Pages : 71 Date : 2016-06-02 Abstract: This document revises, extends, and replaces RFC 6779. It defines a portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. In particular, it describes objects for configuring parameters of the Neighborhood Discovery Protocol (NHDP) process on a router. The extensions described in this document add objects and values to support the NHDP optimization specified in RFC 7466. The MIB module defined in this document, denoted NHDP-MIB, also reports state, performance information, and notifications about NHDP. This additional state and performance information is useful to troubleshoot problems and performance issues during neighbor discovery. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-07 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-07 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Jun 3 13:25:20 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF2A712D80E for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yZKETi943pEb for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x232.google.com (mail-lf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 215BE12D7CE for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id b73so61428367lfb.3 for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2016 13:25:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=/Wi9UlyFxXm1xwJIrNPRAQoDe/Y89wni9496R5NxLV4=; b=Ez7R//RC2yxOpwzzdNhHmzbiwRHwwgCv+8AsGuTJuDuJwFv2vX3bXQ2mxQXcgqBfrg HBQ/lUG3g5fC/qpMLSACF+Ec9hIAfLt1pumDBJWQ8BrthMwj3nz1payQvsY0ZQgf0XwE W0vsScUMVopoTM81rfxP0oc1wIllKAO+t6WeC5oA/FDO5esdVZ3KyZJ3SomIUwGcWXsV p1Qk2O3KhrR5GpRBKHaXHvwErrscOvVc8wwXVTiEb0/s3Hj4dCUwOErA55gtrEZ9FiG4 9uQZC+F9fdFRnM4jJVdY4fzVWLxnRLxi1cN1DM51cKCi6AyRaJlQpZpS853hInmrRnzh uitQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/Wi9UlyFxXm1xwJIrNPRAQoDe/Y89wni9496R5NxLV4=; b=YEbawydFX3rbXVxi6DBQIBE3vhqA7H8tgsHx0+JX4zi3aDmDXxMfYCTDwgorVd5jbq cqbHwE5D3xAvV1W/4jrYOf6eukoTgcyZn3Gu0yULnM7G01N4H6DqhVyxEKu8MACCSfnK CI+UbkltmtVcc46SSEAxzgoE6kNvSS//hXj6sfVR7DtO+5ThL7fzLgWlSpUtVMWItYSu idWvjVvBpTSwV7D6xWPU1lZnrw75r4SoTZE9K9OTOwy7QmQfm6/GJ3kFoqo9YCNaqnEW NRnNZVMWrsDoHifx98hiVahlbaY2Ygj074a7pOFy5HBDi8VZiS24pX5cc1XvXQ1MlclY 15ZA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIYkCxxkJEFZlvrI/DmUN8XIvn9H4jdNTmF9fnqB2+H/z5uDbuI13W+6HEIF0K4i5lrCg3sDBWEyQin3g== X-Received: by 10.25.33.133 with SMTP id h127mr1272962lfh.82.1464985513109; Fri, 03 Jun 2016 13:25:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.77.4 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 13:25:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jiazi YI Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 22:25:12 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 1ui9git7jAgO3wR3looZELscJ94 Message-ID: To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f18881c31550534658581 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 20:25:19 -0000 --001a113f18881c31550534658581 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps > some guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. > > > > I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses either > gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with a short > validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea. > > > > I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested > words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will > nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold > time) then the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the lin= ks > are known to be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included o= r > excluded. It=E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can= be broken > sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, > supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much > detail to go into. > Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means that there is no link to report. Jiazi > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence Laboratories * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Jia= zi > YI > *Sent:* 01 June 2016 21:59 > *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > *Cc:* manet > *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > Hi Chris, > > > > On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > > I will at some point find my editorial comments. > > > > Thanks very much. > > > > > > While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the > SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. > > > > > > In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL > doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the > MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR. > > > > The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUT= E > TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators support > source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messages. > > > > best > > > > Jiazi > > > > > > > > We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have > long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about thos= e > links, they can be chosen by pot luck. > > > > (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are > not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 > chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) > > > > So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link could, > then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about > convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval= .) > If not, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like a= ny > other. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2= =80=99s > the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. > > > > You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on > scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic > TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where > there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the probl= em case > here. > > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence Laboratories * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI > *Sent:* 30 May 2016 22:25 > *To:* manet > *Subject:* [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > **** **WARNING ****** > EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. > > > > Hi all, > > > > The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got > valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! > > > > Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon wit= h > following updates: > > > > - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite. > > > > - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive and > reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact > interoperability. > > > > - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL. > > > > - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is > related to reactive/proactive calculation also) > > > > - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm > > > > - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on > multipath calculation. As indicated in > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038.html , with > non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this has been > reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm used, we can > put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay attention to > it, so that new issues can be reported. > > > > regards > > > > Jiazi > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > > --001a113f18881c31550534658581 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is jus= t to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it shou= ld advertise as neighbours.

=C2=A0

I think if advertising at= a slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I descr= ibed, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.

=C2=A0

I think what you want is = something like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is mu= ch greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mes= sage SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be exce= ptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80= =99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local lin= k information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be= too much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report= addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC m= essage anyways? Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC= _INTERVAL, it generally means that there is no link to report.=C2=A0
<= div>
Jiazi
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finis= hed

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***<= /b>

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.=

Hi Chris,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christophe= r (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find= my editorial comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks very much.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

While the below is genera= lly as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures a= ll of my concern.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the lon= ger SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer val= idity time. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as require= d by OLSR.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to = advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the or= iginators support source routing), in case they are not required to generat= e TC messages.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We have some routers putt= ing out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chose= n by pot luck.

=C2=A0

(Example, four routers in= a square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neigh= bour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each di= rection, all else being equal.)

=C2=A0

So why can we accept some= links having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short = initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP = router. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long valid= ity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

=C2=A0

You note simulations done= . But what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overs= hort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? = Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)12= 45 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside ou= r organization.

=C2=A0

Hi all,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has= finished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= u>

=C2=A0

Based on the comments received, a new revision will = be submitted soon with following updates:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the style more consistent with o= ther OLSRv2-RFC suite.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the reactive multipath calculati= on optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modi= fication won't impact interoperability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the generation/update of Mult= i-path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of fp and fe in the m= ultipath Dijkstra algorithm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chris raised the concern about impact= partial topology map on multipath calculation. As indicated in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038= .html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this ha= s been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion to it, so that new issues can be reported.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************=

=C2=A0


--001a113f18881c31550534658581-- From nobody Fri Jun 3 14:04:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B77B12D992 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qr6e6buQ3qYG for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x231.google.com (mail-wm0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EF5A12B011 for ; Fri, 3 Jun 2016 14:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x231.google.com with SMTP id n184so12636406wmn.1 for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2016 14:04:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=SC3Kkoj52PVVRbrWumczWL7UH9gOUIYQUhq1Vy/eVGA=; b=iTHXdJQ43E4hs9+DG7C4yuTnpRDvqf85OfYbUM83ULCWtJndHTV3Wv6EHEJtdmYKQd d6y4lgPbXd7MK8mVCvcFCl3LXeJpX5h8cnoIHiwzdeaZETnOCEQKE6cWN3PK3rthQ9nD 7JjcUL3RiPLU0UVQyI0HJ4JKMDiV0dlrIDq6mkUXe2usmmEx9a1w6NJEpviH7D7zws/1 WNrwo3266Ga3FkqdqovJNvZtHsa7j+guUCCNvDpqhDSlqW9jUNsMneYSYYS/n4H62QvL vZoEMOLR3z28XdqkQzyGKP5ijI86fn8Opi7/rFpzIzmiwlql6fYdDVc+yazdq6HZtpfH X6LA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=SC3Kkoj52PVVRbrWumczWL7UH9gOUIYQUhq1Vy/eVGA=; b=cjxtw3ozsbK6R/AGPeJ5mHckVYd682AsTneqDfkmkLFIFDyFPKESTcpumkGPe0uUKa KthdKLqgbLNQ4zTogn9M7uCGpOlfHnnYFfupyDMi+poh5iwwusN66xqtb75JLypxT6RH RLr7QqN2tUMuFGsX7tYbxt1EvM7jZFENQa7BobU59hhy+iMtfrEnlZRtmDEMNinGA1NM 9mOZTpbDuw9j5p4tkv75TCfAR0tUf5UXKbLeqt54KuJwKXRHOq8d/SsC5NE1jQTddU66 MAeFS5Q12eKpwaP7WzeE69zdV4TFZie5GHQkBjao4Q8IiNz01+AAK+QKXRxEhXk/eMMo WULQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIL/XlHVEbVtXTuhE1EMz0SFx2SeBUSs2wESn7NOkvTM4NdTNjqRbPknG+wlVTslQ== X-Received: by 10.28.19.210 with SMTP id 201mr1192005wmt.49.1464987891983; Fri, 03 Jun 2016 14:04:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (host86-173-133-145.range86-173.btcentralplus.com. [86.173.133.145]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s1sm3818225wjf.43.2016.06.03.14.04.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 03 Jun 2016 14:04:51 -0700 (PDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-B15F99D9-39FF-47F6-85FC-880F4FDE138B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <378F0B9F-BCA5-4F56-9150-BD1EEEA0500D@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13F69) From: Christopher Dearlove Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2016 22:04:49 +0100 To: Jiazi YI Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2016 21:04:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail-B15F99D9-39FF-47F6-85FC-880F4FDE138B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here we're into the subtleties of advertised neighbours versus MPR selectors= . The point is to make sure people don't send rare TCs, then decide because th= ey are sending them they might as well advertise some addresses (because tha= t's allowed, see the point above). But those advertisements can be positivel= y harmful. -- =20 Christopher Dearlove christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone) chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home) > On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps so= me guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses either= gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with a short va= lidity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested wor= ds) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick= over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then t= he TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to= be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2= =80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibl= y. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, supplied by n= eighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much detail to go into. >>=20 >=20 > Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses" i= n this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because if a r= outer doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means that t= here is no link to report.=20 >=20 > Jiazi > =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Christopher Dearlove >> Senior Principal Engineer >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >> _________________________________________________________________________= _ >>=20 >> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >> www.baesystems.com/ai >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>=20 >> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi Y= I >> Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59 >> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >> Cc: manet >> Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> *** WARNING *** >>=20 >> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext= ernal partner or the internet. >> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach= ments or reply. >> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou receive, click here. >> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>=20 >> Hi Chris,=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >>=20 >> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Thanks very much. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_T= C_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL do= esn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the MP-OLS= R routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUT= E TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators support sour= ce routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messages.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> best >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Jiazi >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have= long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those l= inks, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are no= t. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance o= f being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link could,= then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about converge= nce, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, t= hen consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like any other. An= d may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the s= ituation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on scenari= os with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL i= s appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where there are MP ro= uters not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Christopher Dearlove >> Senior Principal Engineer >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >> _________________________________________________________________________= _ >>=20 >> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >> www.baesystems.com/ai >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>=20 >> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI >> Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25 >> To: manet >> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> *** WARNING *** >>=20 >> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext= ernal partner or the internet. >> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach= ments or reply. >> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou receive, click here. >> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>=20 >> *** WARNING *** >> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Hi all,=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got val= uable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon wit= h following updates: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive and= reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact interopera= bility.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is rel= ated to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on multip= ath calculation. As indicated in https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet= /current/msg19038.html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no iss= ue related to this has been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selecti= on algorithm used, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make p= eople pay attention to it, so that new issues can be reported.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> regards >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Jiazi >>=20 >> ******************************************************************** >> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >> distribute its contents to any other person. >> ******************************************************************** >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --Apple-Mail-B15F99D9-39FF-47F6-85FC-880F4FDE138B Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here we're into the subtleties of adve= rtised neighbours versus MPR selectors.
=
The point is to make sure people do= n't send rare TCs, then decide because they are sending them they might as w= ell advertise some addresses (because that's allowed, see the point above). B= ut those advertisements can be positively harmful.

--  
Chri= stopher Dearlove
=

On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:



On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is just t= o advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it should a= dvertise as neighbours.

 =

I think if advertising at a= slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I describe= d, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.=

 =

I think what you want is so= mething like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much g= reater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mess= age SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be except= ionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80=99s b= asically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link= information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be t= oo much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresse= s" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because i= f a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means t= hat there is no link to report. 

Jiazi
 

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris= .dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"= ,"sans-serif""> yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finish= ed

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

Hi Chris, 

 

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher= (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find m= y editorial comments.

 

Thanks very much.

  

 =

While the below is generall= y as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all o= f my concern.

 

 

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the long= er SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity t= ime. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLS= R. 

 

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to a= dvertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the orig= inators support source routing), in case they are not required to generate T= C messages. 

 

best

 

Jiazi

 

 

 =

We have some routers puttin= g out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chosen= by pot luck.

 =

(Example, four routers in a= square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neighbou= r as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each dir= ection, all else being equal.)

 =

So why can we accept some l= inks having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short i= nitial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP ro= uter. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long validity= time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

 =

You note simulations done. B= ut what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not oversh= ort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Be= cause that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 2= 42194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From: manet [mailto:manet-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our o= rganization.

 

Hi all, 

 

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has f= inished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= /u>

 

Based on the comments received, a new revision will b= e submitted soon with following updates:

 

   - Make the style more consistent with ot= her OLSRv2-RFC suite. 

 

   - Make the reactive multipath calculatio= n optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modifi= cation won't impact interoperability. 

 

   - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.&nbs= p;

 

   - Clarify the generation/update of Multi= -path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)

 

   - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the mu= ltipath Dijkstra algorithm

 

 

regards

 

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************<= u>

 


= --Apple-Mail-B15F99D9-39FF-47F6-85FC-880F4FDE138B-- From nobody Sat Jun 4 00:04:51 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C8D12B042 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 00:04:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 57YgfHlX6FSQ for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 00:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B3A612B019 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 00:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id m124so13696920wme.1 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 00:04:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=kgjynwPhATXXiNIEt2TQSWIWDidDgTOJKWCcaLTYu5w=; b=EI3pU0tEugMPw6rcE02RgYZInxNlMb9g5Y2GRTxV8f3NtV5d6tGcGe+iWCTXlgJYSK gzG6QY26UBOHTeNWIncN2xCf8vI200t+OVnxBDvkA97w7ymzoWXqEKgOTL5tA+P/uRW6 P0P6UXsTD9LAnNRZ0tJxPlBQ7v0aw6cXz37MBI9nhZYJ6w7RBh1dlj9Ikz3KlgZw7T54 EDkfhqiZGzxkz8QeeDAaR5QeFeZY12+Vkni7LqqYyO1U1hGz1ehRuczGKoigKNzyue2N VN6AsiZNafRF+YquN3OamfM7igwpeMXbU5UwuyMh1G+ni/B/Lmbh12Ynqz0V6h9ER7dk +pPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=kgjynwPhATXXiNIEt2TQSWIWDidDgTOJKWCcaLTYu5w=; b=ftgHAWspTc4HP3nrsWTrSAvuznJK2ll6DS0i4zUO5Cv3Mliiv9BorHOW1ioLaFEnci XqD5KFyCkiDnxkp++3I8aT1g8SJ1w1FjBFkjkiu7j+9sq/LjYOepM4SO0MglB90dQXIW cmfa7k1/4BcGLqL2CrzIfaiJPQjuTDouy0YSNhRydB8n/UFFKmZe6YXuK2IGoqLNvifE SqPBdDxKY1QFH5o9pVicoBu+jHrUlSf2lKcUq+guEwEnNMjiIWZV2T212aWy5mRfArl0 MmmuYEL/tb2XSWeZf35NH17En+3djXovgFcUaMRMQ2vus4F13lv2xwv8m/ZvmsqSrE1l tEOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI5D74Acj73Og2pbewcf0JTq9MRmxY43coq/EZsaBFbmq9v8BZJlhVLEWwimS+dnA== X-Received: by 10.28.36.8 with SMTP id k8mr2773787wmk.66.1465023884806; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 00:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.6.28.72] ([82.132.187.165]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r76sm1275634wme.14.2016.06.04.00.04.43 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 04 Jun 2016 00:04:44 -0700 (PDT) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-381204E6-E7F1-4715-ABCA-8DA68946AD61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13F69) From: Christopher Dearlove Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 08:04:40 +0100 To: Jiazi YI Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 07:04:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail-381204E6-E7F1-4715-ABCA-8DA68946AD61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertising ju= st the source route TLV? A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an in= termediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed usin= g HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) So what's the use case for this feature? --=20 Christopher Dearlove > On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps so= me guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses either= gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with a short va= lidity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested wor= ds) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick= over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then t= he TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to= be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2= =80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibl= y. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, supplied by n= eighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much detail to go into. >>=20 >=20 > Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses" i= n this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because if a r= outer doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means that t= here is no link to report.=20 >=20 > Jiazi > =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Christopher Dearlove >> Senior Principal Engineer >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >> _________________________________________________________________________= _ >>=20 >> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >> www.baesystems.com/ai >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>=20 >> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi Y= I >> Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59 >> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >> Cc: manet >> Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> *** WARNING *** >>=20 >> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext= ernal partner or the internet. >> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach= ments or reply. >> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou receive, click here. >> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>=20 >> Hi Chris,=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >>=20 >> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Thanks very much. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_T= C_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL do= esn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the MP-OLS= R routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUT= E TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators support sour= ce routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messages.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> best >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Jiazi >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have= long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those l= inks, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are no= t. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance o= f being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link could,= then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about converge= nce, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, t= hen consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like any other. An= d may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the s= ituation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on scenari= os with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL i= s appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where there are MP ro= uters not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> -- >>=20 >> Christopher Dearlove >> Senior Principal Engineer >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >> _________________________________________________________________________= _ >>=20 >> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >> www.baesystems.com/ai >>=20 >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>=20 >> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI >> Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25 >> To: manet >> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> *** WARNING *** >>=20 >> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an ext= ernal partner or the internet. >> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach= ments or reply. >> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails y= ou receive, click here. >> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>=20 >> *** WARNING *** >> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Hi all,=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got val= uable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon wit= h following updates: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive and= reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact interopera= bility.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is rel= ated to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on multip= ath calculation. As indicated in https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet= /current/msg19038.html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no iss= ue related to this has been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selecti= on algorithm used, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make p= eople pay attention to it, so that new issues can be reported.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> regards >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Jiazi >>=20 >> ******************************************************************** >> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >> distribute its contents to any other person. >> ******************************************************************** >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --Apple-Mail-381204E6-E7F1-4715-ABCA-8DA68946AD61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Actually, as I should have thought ear= lier, what's the use of advertising just the source route TLV?

A router that d= oesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an intermediate rout= er on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed using HELLO message= s, but those should only be transient.)
=
So what's the use case for this fea= ture?

-- 
Christopher Dearlove

On 3 Jun 2= 016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi= .com> wrote:



On Thu, J= un 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlov= e@baesystems.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is just t= o advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it should a= dvertise as neighbours.

 =

I think if advertising at a= slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I describe= d, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.=

 =

I think what you want is so= mething like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much g= reater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mess= age SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be except= ionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80=99s b= asically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link= information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be t= oo much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresse= s" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because i= f a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means t= hat there is no link to report. 

Jiazi
 

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris= .dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"= ,"sans-serif""> yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finish= ed

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

Hi Chris, 

 

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher= (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find m= y editorial comments.

 

Thanks very much.

  

 =

While the below is generall= y as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all o= f my concern.

 

 

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the long= er SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity t= ime. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLS= R. 

 

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to a= dvertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the orig= inators support source routing), in case they are not required to generate T= C messages. 

 

best

 

Jiazi

 

 

 =

We have some routers puttin= g out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chosen= by pot luck.

 =

(Example, four routers in a= square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neighbou= r as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each dir= ection, all else being equal.)

 =

So why can we accept some l= inks having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short i= nitial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP ro= uter. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long validity= time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

 =

You note simulations done. B= ut what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not oversh= ort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Be= cause that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 2= 42194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From: manet [mailto:manet-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our o= rganization.

 

Hi all, 

 

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has f= inished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= /u>

 

Based on the comments received, a new revision will b= e submitted soon with following updates:

 

   - Make the style more consistent with ot= her OLSRv2-RFC suite. 

 

   - Make the reactive multipath calculatio= n optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modifi= cation won't impact interoperability. 

 

   - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.&nbs= p;

 

   - Clarify the generation/update of Multi= -path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)

 

   - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the mu= ltipath Dijkstra algorithm

 

 

regards

 

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************<= u>

 


= --Apple-Mail-381204E6-E7F1-4715-ABCA-8DA68946AD61-- From nobody Sat Jun 4 13:15:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDAA12B03A for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:15:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z6CUM6tEKlo6 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x236.google.com (mail-lf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AECF012B00E for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id s64so73405936lfe.0 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 13:15:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ghwq+DUXql0CqRVecyz39HV9x46Rz6Rq5qpq9WDAWhw=; b=RMKfSHRUS+jK29xfZgSYhBDuQ/Ata1QId0kKDwvoe75xssXkReNvVwcyXAilCU5XA7 Wmshe+w1SchdY2fzq6siKi18xxdQloutaIpJRMY8u6dI7CIehn3WJXeEW96rr+CPEs1Y yOSQZs4lJ4GKtgPzUmcgHAV+AlyNWqvZPSyVLosFHgKvsqTDuluL+unZWxJ7OYAf4LL/ uSk9c7nC8D7FgcUESbiaxigNQduaRrpsBuS26LbDO4tVecvR4GAcy5n1YEJBrwVRHl/v DZ2ahTcEw6UJJKy1ZuAQM9orD2kpEAiAx3jW2BehGrY9SM/IVcDHvhYJMMkR4vTmbKc1 0vKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ghwq+DUXql0CqRVecyz39HV9x46Rz6Rq5qpq9WDAWhw=; b=dvSHjBCghDDAmIORmzsdmhhgTrfqqHra1dd5CP1Q2FgfQwpUe+eL62k4frb7K8xLht AfD5zJeXg4KN9nhlqP/zN3u+UJnpys88MfteRvhP+0/oOAYPEyuOpGNjr+UUWlEe25bq HhEUoLPcRY/85QqSrs2/nGpb1q8bDxpN03O7zdKc2r9HBJRfVSQk5DMHGejcnK3c3zm6 /z/6u8rDWio9Pex0vx4S9PFzeWOWrLW0b1BiJTucdDAY8Bsp1D4x8sHYjqgmwPwYUUqA yVKWb09arsll0nRQuv3etYiNDOG1uIh8B9YYaEnXoPQU+F4bbEAmEWo6Om/soOJA36Qg PdpA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL+W0PW3gAdttCtZ3Qn4MMk2VDnTnA6S+lS6lMLGnw1buHdJA2ynkYLxUKHLJ5hEjCKGrSCF1lKFqOZ6A== X-Received: by 10.25.24.95 with SMTP id o92mr264004lfi.58.1465071313844; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 13:15:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.77.4 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 13:15:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jiazi YI Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 22:15:12 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Dztu5YfZt_5MppTM2UDzf1TBKQo Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114082203b7f830534797fbb Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 20:15:20 -0000 --001a114082203b7f830534797fbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right? An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC message will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages. Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to know the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not. Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can provide such information. Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know a destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to such destination. best Jiazi On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove < christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertising > just the source route TLV? > > A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an > intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed > using HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) > > So what's the use case for this feature? > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > > On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > >> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps >> some guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >> >> >> >> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses eithe= r >> gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with a short >> validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea. >> >> >> >> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested >> words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will >> nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold >> time) then the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the li= nks >> are known to be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included = or >> excluded. It=E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT ca= n be broken >> sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, >> supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much >> detail to go into. >> > > Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses" > in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because i= f > a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means > that there is no link to report. > > Jiazi > > >> >> >> *-- * >> >> >> >> >> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >> Intelligence Laboratories * >> *_______________________________________________________________________= ___ >> * >> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >> >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >> www.baesystems.com/ai >> >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >> >> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >> >> >> >> *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *Ji= azi >> YI >> *Sent:* 01 June 2016 21:59 >> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >> *Cc:* manet >> *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finishe= d >> >> >> >> >> >> **** WARNING **** >> >> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an >> external partner or the internet.* >> >> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you >> can look out for in emails you receive, click here >> .* >> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >> .* >> >> Hi Chris, >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >> >> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >> >> >> >> Thanks very much. >> >> >> >> >> >> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the >> SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >> >> >> >> >> >> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL >> doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the >> MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR. >> >> >> >> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise >> SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originato= rs >> support source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC >> messages. >> >> >> >> best >> >> >> >> Jiazi >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they hav= e >> long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about tho= se >> links, they can be chosen by pot luck. >> >> >> >> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are >> not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 >> chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >> >> >> >> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link could= , >> then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about >> convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interva= l.) >> If not, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like = any >> other. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that= =E2=80=99s >> the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >> >> >> >> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on >> scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic >> TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density wher= e >> there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the prob= lem case >> here. >> >> >> >> *-- * >> >> >> >> >> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >> Intelligence Laboratories * >> *_______________________________________________________________________= ___ >> * >> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >> >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >> www.baesystems.com/ai >> >> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >> >> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >> >> >> >> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI >> *Sent:* 30 May 2016 22:25 >> *To:* manet >> *Subject:* [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >> >> >> >> >> >> **** WARNING **** >> >> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an >> external partner or the internet.* >> >> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you >> can look out for in emails you receive, click here >> .* >> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >> .* >> >> **** **WARNING ****** >> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> >> >> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got >> valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >> >> >> >> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon >> with following updates: >> >> >> >> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite. >> >> >> >> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive an= d >> reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact >> interoperability. >> >> >> >> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL. >> >> >> >> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is >> related to reactive/proactive calculation also) >> >> >> >> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >> >> >> >> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on >> multipath calculation. As indicated in >> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038.html , with >> non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this has bee= n >> reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm used, we ca= n >> put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay attention to >> it, so that new issues can be reported. >> >> >> >> regards >> >> >> >> Jiazi >> >> ******************************************************************** >> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >> distribute its contents to any other person. >> ******************************************************************** >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > --001a114082203b7f830534797fbb Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the &qu= ot;topology graph" constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a = route, right?

An MP-OLSR router that doesn't adverti= se any neighbors in its own TC message will be advertised in other router&#= 39;s (or routers') TC messages.=C2=A0
Of course, the router r= eceiving such TC messages won't be able to know the neighbors are MP-OL= SR enabled or not.=C2=A0
Having the MP-OLSR originating TC messag= e carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can provide such information.=C2=A0
=
Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to= know a destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routin= g to such destination.=C2=A0

best

Jiazi=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
Actually, as I should have t= hought earlier, what's the use of advertising just the source route TLV= ?

A router that doesn't advertise any neighbou= rs in TC messages can't be an intermediate router on a route. (Exceptio= n for two hop routes constructed using HELLO messages, but those should onl= y be transient.)

So what's the use case for th= is feature?

--=C2=A0<= div>Christopher Dearlove
On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

=


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at= 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesyste= ms.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is jus= t to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it shou= ld advertise as neighbours.

=C2=A0

I think if advertising at= a slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I descr= ibed, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.

=C2=A0

I think what you want is = something like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is mu= ch greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mes= sage SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be exce= ptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80= =99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local lin= k information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be= too much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report= addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC m= essage anyways? Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC= _INTERVAL, it generally means that there is no link to report.=C2=A0
<= div>
Jiazi
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finis= hed

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***<= /b>

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.=

Hi Chris,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christophe= r (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find= my editorial comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks very much.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

While the below is genera= lly as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures a= ll of my concern.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the lon= ger SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer val= idity time. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as require= d by OLSR.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to = advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the or= iginators support source routing), in case they are not required to generat= e TC messages.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We have some routers putt= ing out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chose= n by pot luck.

=C2=A0

(Example, four routers in= a square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neigh= bour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each di= rection, all else being equal.)

=C2=A0

So why can we accept some= links having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short = initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP = router. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long valid= ity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

=C2=A0

You note simulations done= . But what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overs= hort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? = Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)12= 45 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside ou= r organization.

=C2=A0

Hi all,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has= finished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= u>

=C2=A0

Based on the comments received, a new revision will = be submitted soon with following updates:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the style more consistent with o= ther OLSRv2-RFC suite.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the reactive multipath calculati= on optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modi= fication won't impact interoperability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the generation/update of Mult= i-path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of fp and fe in the m= ultipath Dijkstra algorithm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chris raised the concern about impact= partial topology map on multipath calculation. As indicated in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038= .html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this ha= s been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion to it, so that new issues can be reported.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************=

=C2=A0


<= div>_______________________________________________
m= anet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/= listinfo/manet
<= /div>
--001a114082203b7f830534797fbb-- From nobody Sat Jun 4 15:39:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0052B12D679 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oZld408TO9kl for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA90412D66D for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s64so74344010lfe.0 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:39:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=rrFcscZMkllAUH+xuM3mWoFZzyvuQ5uCwnv0gNdgmso=; b=G6sT6lozklRCrE3MrRBoswz4GJZZxg8mE31iAdK1qJbn+AduQAXJqvatwXFwSLTzPr ETIYNyBvqnKAlzKXhi+FU2I0pIUt2lFlIzhGF5ApXwRzXzxnFTlRzaUr5ft72Tj7nxPw 14jyVX7iP8ypGlnon+7I51ucrWkhZuAaiuCXRGSRoo0U8WQ9NiESDP2Cb28V1hXlNEpc Cnag50Ax37uriefRasUUBAiCbPRNpmuQaQ4ae+6jXJArswF8IBnUr5K9AuKLUMeZbdCi LGaRK3vqzuqdTed92YFWrqqcCkZpOIZ0Cb2YA+DaVJmRlcFmLMMqJqMxYUZfIMYy4rO0 gbcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rrFcscZMkllAUH+xuM3mWoFZzyvuQ5uCwnv0gNdgmso=; b=gsJm8KXPBlbuDPwt1dnaQc4c9l4dK5j/S6ZyzonUT6gwudbLqfWp7jNevcy5qf92W1 iWROIXDxjzkyEqMHfhtE20P9HLi/Ld7NWlIcNicoFcY/1zMPXrPIcXn7Isk9GKIpch8l 6uNHFRrJTFx/tzIYzVZS88cA0XokFGiqqH4Q25+SUmv6uOsNru5WUUg2wN7qN4ATGrqq a/Mn9fZd2exLkMOAuMOuO6q/EokEJibb9EYdQV9GInTIl+5DkViaJWJDRkVU8/akx8cR tvvqTp64Bpm1BOr7fmRjEVs7tyOOp5i4BR+SIE+O7qAV/AsxXpmOLaNay5hU+bezW7Nj r7mg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKvoW6F7MOnyx0X2mvtyHHkplCQLMLnJanTtMkeltuPYFq5/G9BRCgU0s9FjDdmDniULLWl+S9VKSMVuA== X-Received: by 10.46.5.194 with SMTP id 185mr2623146ljf.65.1465079983041; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:39:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.77.4 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:39:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9E43B0B9-6E89-4EBA-BCD3-D217673912B9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> References: <9E43B0B9-6E89-4EBA-BCD3-D217673912B9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> From: Jiazi YI Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 00:39:42 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Hn1QkAm_liTGwK97JUfYNgIDqYY Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a6aacf4f09305347b83e9 Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , Christopher Dearlove , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 22:39:49 -0000 --001a114a6aacf4f09305347b83e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove < chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote: > Being advertised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to > look at the directionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgoin= g, > not incoming. > > If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter. But why? > All a destination needs to do is receive packets. > There is a source routing header in the packets, the destination needs to know how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviour would be unpredictable. > > However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise other addresses. > Which is back at the point I was making about not advertising other > addresses. Not needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated. > I would agree with not advertising other addresses. Jiazi > > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > > On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI wrote: > > As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" > constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right? > > An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC > message will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages. > Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to know th= e > neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not. > Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can > provide such information. > > Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know a > destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to > such destination. > > best > > Jiazi > > On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove < > christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertisin= g >> just the source route TLV? >> >> A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be a= n >> intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructe= d >> using HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) >> >> So what's the use case for this feature? >> >> -- >> Christopher Dearlove >> >> On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >> >>> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps >>> some guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses >>> either gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with= a >>> short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad = idea. >>> >>> >>> >>> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested >>> words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will >>> nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold >>> time) then the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the l= inks >>> are known to be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included= or >>> excluded. It=E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT c= an be broken >>> sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, >>> supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much >>> detail to go into. >>> >> >> Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses" >> in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because = if >> a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally mean= s >> that there is no link to report. >> >> Jiazi >> >> >>> >>> >>> *-- * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >>> Intelligence Laboratories * >>> *______________________________________________________________________= ____ >>> * >>> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>> >>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >>> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>> >>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>> >>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *J= iazi >>> YI >>> *Sent:* 01 June 2016 21:59 >>> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >>> *Cc:* manet >>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC >>> finished >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> **** WARNING **** >>> >>> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an >>> external partner or the internet.* >>> >>> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >>> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you >>> can look out for in emails you receive, click here >>> .* >>> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >>> .* >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >>> >>> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks very much. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the >>> SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL >>> doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the >>> MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR. >>> >>> >>> >>> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise >>> SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originat= ors >>> support source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC >>> messages. >>> >>> >>> >>> best >>> >>> >>> >>> Jiazi >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they >>> have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different abo= ut >>> those links, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>> >>> >>> >>> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are >>> not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 >>> chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>> >>> >>> >>> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link >>> could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried abo= ut >>> convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interv= al.) >>> If not, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like= any >>> other. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that= =E2=80=99s >>> the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>> >>> >>> >>> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on >>> scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic >>> TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density whe= re >>> there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the pro= blem case >>> here. >>> >>> >>> >>> *-- * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >>> Intelligence Laboratories * >>> *______________________________________________________________________= ____ >>> * >>> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>> >>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >>> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>> >>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>> >>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI >>> *Sent:* 30 May 2016 22:25 >>> *To:* manet >>> *Subject:* [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> **** WARNING **** >>> >>> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an >>> external partner or the internet.* >>> >>> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >>> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you >>> can look out for in emails you receive, click here >>> .* >>> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >>> .* >>> >>> **** **WARNING ****** >>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization= . >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> >>> >>> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got >>> valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>> >>> >>> >>> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon >>> with following updates: >>> >>> >>> >>> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite. >>> >>> >>> >>> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive >>> and reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact >>> interoperability. >>> >>> >>> >>> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL. >>> >>> >>> >>> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is >>> related to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>> >>> >>> >>> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >>> >>> >>> >>> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on >>> multipath calculation. As indicated in >>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038.html , >>> with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this h= as >>> been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm used,= we >>> can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay attenti= on >>> to it, so that new issues can be reported. >>> >>> >>> >>> regards >>> >>> >>> >>> Jiazi >>> >>> ******************************************************************** >>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >>> distribute its contents to any other person. >>> ******************************************************************** >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> manet mailing list >> manet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >> >> > --001a114a6aacf4f09305347b83e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Being advertised in other routers&#= 39; messages doesn't help - you need to look at the directionality of t= he links, links in TC messages are outgoing, not incoming.

If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter.= But why? All a destination needs to do is receive packets.

There is a source routing header in the packet= s, the destination needs to know how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviou= r would be unpredictable.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

However suppose that it is = needed, no need to advertise other addresses. Which is back at the point I = was making about not advertising other addresses. Not needed, even harmful,= in the cases I indicated.

I wo= uld agree with not advertising other addresses.=C2=A0

<= div>Jiazi
=C2=A0


--=C2=A0<= div>Christopher Dearlove

On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

As long as a router has more than= two neighbors in the "topology graph" constructed, it can be an = intermediate router on a route, right?

An MP-OLSR router= that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC message will be adv= ertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages.=C2=A0
Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to kno= w the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not.=C2=A0
Having the MP-O= LSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can provide such info= rmation.=C2=A0

Other than being intermediate route= rs, it's important to know a destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want= to use multi-path routing to such destination.=C2=A0

<= div>best

Jiazi=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Chr= istopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
Actuall= y, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertising just= the source route TLV?

A router that doesn't a= dvertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an intermediate router = on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed using HELLO messages,= but those should only be transient.)

So what'= s the use case for this feature?

--=C2= =A0
Christopher Dearlove

On 3 J= un 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

<= blockquote type=3D"cite">


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove= , Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is jus= t to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it shou= ld advertise as neighbours.

=C2=A0

I think if advertising at= a slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I descr= ibed, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.

=C2=A0

I think what you want is = something like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is mu= ch greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mes= sage SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be exce= ptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80= =99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local lin= k information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be= too much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report= addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC m= essage anyways? Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC= _INTERVAL, it generally means that there is no link to report.=C2=A0
<= div>
Jiazi
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finis= hed

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***<= /b>

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.=

Hi Chris,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christophe= r (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find= my editorial comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks very much.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

While the below is genera= lly as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures a= ll of my concern.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the lon= ger SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer val= idity time. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as require= d by OLSR.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to = advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the or= iginators support source routing), in case they are not required to generat= e TC messages.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We have some routers putt= ing out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chose= n by pot luck.

=C2=A0

(Example, four routers in= a square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neigh= bour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each di= rection, all else being equal.)

=C2=A0

So why can we accept some= links having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short = initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP = router. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long valid= ity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

=C2=A0

You note simulations done= . But what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overs= hort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? = Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)12= 45 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside ou= r organization.

=C2=A0

Hi all,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has= finished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= u>

=C2=A0

Based on the comments received, a new revision will = be submitted soon with following updates:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the style more consistent with o= ther OLSRv2-RFC suite.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the reactive multipath calculati= on optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modi= fication won't impact interoperability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the generation/update of Mult= i-path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of fp and fe in the m= ultipath Dijkstra algorithm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chris raised the concern about impact= partial topology map on multipath calculation. As indicated in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038= .html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this ha= s been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion to it, so that new issues can be reported.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************=

=C2=A0


_= ______________________________________________
manet mailin= g list
= manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/man= et


--001a114a6aacf4f09305347b83e9-- From nobody Sat Jun 4 15:42:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5663812D690 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mTZvNfSTuyzd for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com (mail-wm0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6761612D689 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 15:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id m124so29200237wme.1 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:42:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=qPemHZgtmiOeikeG+v+uVXCZA9XW1twbXUaCF3BU0T4=; b=XJJJiNKnnlA4yHZ4fKSLTCjG2GtpX2rTkk/cpe6WL+ZvUikuhgnBGQMYb5tts0ydpf VT4Pndp2dnJL4E6zByfYDiVKXjDekeJAC/9KatLjpNkn+thpJdU/DwrP54hd7lZ2BEPZ QByrDhjw72nmplVT96hP577d4cxzk8YiJsJXcREB0xpx8AN1B6KISyydPdKiYNuhZeKu npCwwwpZy8CXeK2FzIV2dh1rDcuApkO0Y6qxZAyI1Qe76AY9pWEFGYq/8CjJsF1QadX6 soN2vf9DRf8i5BwT8HERKMubAhfV0PiNCkp08ZDAeJIhWJVh3N44oKv1N6qybEDX4wph GVYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:from:subject:date:to; bh=qPemHZgtmiOeikeG+v+uVXCZA9XW1twbXUaCF3BU0T4=; b=DhGCHLv++VfdmXUSh7PVldBcxUlW/CfbOO2RRFI7cC7lD9RBVwiHjnOoagQPjaWNtS xnrRMb4mA7dkv9mQE2Q8orYsnb1RNxHw+fmJ+YbLf3O5PKGCD7S2RzQ8MNu+8nAl1sv2 vljyCyK3pSoDXAhCQR4PKW44lEUuHyIMuP9zw5PIzzhXideekjbH0UrE4W3z33nMDny+ eGa15RicPp9B2Dm1eL6Zc0f5+PwjbltXy7xW0IAQ1sUutY1OJtynfWaRadRX3QCz5oIv yTc0JCBJ3GOKQs/ufh++i2tFLqMtzhEb7ZWy8RPmjXDlP0kN2husvxBnitgepO71IkxD HoOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tL/oB9xhZ//scbjvbfZPenXXXSZFykZX+SgOzb+OyJBxy8CatPjDdCGH91pmGRRjQ== X-Received: by 10.28.125.86 with SMTP id y83mr4989162wmc.8.1465080146756; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.64] (host86-176-31-214.range86-176.btcentralplus.com. [86.176.31.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e133sm3292871wma.6.2016.06.04.15.42.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:42:25 -0700 (PDT) References: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-AE35FC25-629D-4E46-88B7-C6F5ED01F41D Message-Id: <51482846-4FC8-4EF5-88A1-873D19ACC498@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13F69) From: Christopher Dearlove Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 23:42:24 +0100 To: Jiazi YI Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , Christopher Dearlove , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 22:42:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail-AE35FC25-629D-4E46-88B7-C6F5ED01F41D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Being advertised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to look a= t the directionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgoing, not in= coming. If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter. But why? All a= destination needs to do is receive packets. However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise other addresses. Whi= ch is back at the point I was making about not advertising other addresses. N= ot needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated. --=20 Christopher Dearlove -- =20 Christopher Dearlove christopher.dearlove@gmail.com (iPhone) chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk (home) > On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI wrote: >=20 > As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" co= nstructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right? >=20 > An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC messa= ge will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages.=20 > Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to know the= neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not.=20 > Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can p= rovide such information.=20 >=20 > Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know a destinatio= n is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to such destinati= on.=20 >=20 > best >=20 > Jiazi=20 >=20 >> On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote: >> Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertising= just the source route TLV? >>=20 >> A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an= intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed u= sing HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) >>=20 >> So what's the use case for this feature? >>=20 >> --=20 >> Christopher Dearlove >>=20 >>> On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >>>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >>>> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps s= ome guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses eith= er gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with a short v= alidity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested w= ords) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpi= ck over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then= the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known t= o be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It= =E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sens= ibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, supplied b= y neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much detail to go int= o. >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses"= in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because if a= router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means tha= t there is no link to report.=20 >>>=20 >>> Jiazi >>> =20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>>=20 >>>> Christopher Dearlove >>>> Senior Principal Engineer >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >>>> _______________________________________________________________________= ___ >>>>=20 >>>> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>>=20 >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Bad= dow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>>=20 >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>>=20 >>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi= YI >>>> Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59 >>>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >>>> Cc: manet >>>> Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished= >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> *** WARNING *** >>>>=20 >>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an e= xternal partner or the internet. >>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any atta= chments or reply. >>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails= you receive, click here. >>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Chris,=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks very much. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR= _TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL d= oesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the MP-OL= SR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise SOURCE_RO= UTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators support so= urce routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messages.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> best >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Jiazi >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they ha= ve long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about thos= e links, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are n= ot. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance= of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link coul= d, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about conver= gence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not= , then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like any other.= And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s t= he situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on scena= rios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL i= s appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where there are MP ro= uters not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here. >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> -- >>>>=20 >>>> Christopher Dearlove >>>> Senior Principal Engineer >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >>>> _______________________________________________________________________= ___ >>>>=20 >>>> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>>=20 >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Bad= dow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>>=20 >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>>=20 >>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI >>>> Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25 >>>> To: manet >>>> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> *** WARNING *** >>>>=20 >>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an e= xternal partner or the internet. >>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any atta= chments or reply. >>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails= you receive, click here. >>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>>>=20 >>>> *** WARNING *** >>>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization= . >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Hi all,=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got v= aluable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon w= ith following updates: >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive a= nd reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact interope= rability.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is r= elated to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on mult= ipath calculation. As indicated in https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/man= et/current/msg19038.html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no i= ssue related to this has been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selec= tion algorithm used, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make= people pay attention to it, so that new issues can be reported.=20 >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> regards >>>>=20 >>>> =20 >>>>=20 >>>> Jiazi >>>>=20 >>>> ******************************************************************** >>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >>>> distribute its contents to any other person. >>>> ******************************************************************** >>>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> manet mailing list >>> manet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >=20 --Apple-Mail-AE35FC25-629D-4E46-88B7-C6F5ED01F41D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Being advert= ised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to look at the direc= tionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgoing, not incoming.

If you need to know destinations are MP that's another= matter. But why? All a destination needs to do is receive packets.

However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise oth= er addresses. Which is back at the point I was making about not advertising o= ther addresses. Not needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated.

-= - 
Christopher Dearlove



--  <= div>Christopher Dearlove
On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "= topology graph" constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, ri= ght?

An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbo= rs in its own TC message will be advertised in other router's (or routers') T= C messages. 
Of course, the router receiving such TC messages= won't be able to know the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not. 
=
Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV ca= n provide such information. 

Other than being i= ntermediate routers, it's important to know a destination is MP-OLSR enabled= , if we want to use multi-path routing to such destination. 
=
best

Jiazi 

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:0= 4 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
Ac= tually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertising just= the source route TLV?

A router that doesn't advert= ise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an intermediate router on a route= . (Exception for two hop routes constructed using HELLO messages, but those s= hould only be transient.)

So what's the use case fo= r this feature?

--&nbs= p;
Christopher Dearlove
<= br>On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

=


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 1= 0:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.c= om> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is just t= o advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it should a= dvertise as neighbours.

 =

I think if advertising at a= slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I describe= d, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.=

 =

I think what you want is so= mething like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much g= reater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mess= age SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be except= ionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80=99s b= asically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link= information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be t= oo much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresse= s" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because i= f a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means t= hat there is no link to report. 

Jiazi
 

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris= .dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"= ,"sans-serif""> yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finish= ed

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

Hi Chris, 

 

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher= (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find m= y editorial comments.

 

Thanks very much.

  

 =

While the below is generall= y as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all o= f my concern.

 

 

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the long= er SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity t= ime. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLS= R. 

 

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to a= dvertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the orig= inators support source routing), in case they are not required to generate T= C messages. 

 

best

 

Jiazi

 

 

 =

We have some routers puttin= g out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chosen= by pot luck.

 =

(Example, four routers in a= square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neighbou= r as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each dir= ection, all else being equal.)

 =

So why can we accept some l= inks having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short i= nitial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP ro= uter. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long validity= time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

 =

You note simulations done. B= ut what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not oversh= ort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Be= cause that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 2= 42194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From: manet [mailto:manet-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our o= rganization.

 

Hi all, 

 

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has f= inished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= /u>

 

Based on the comments received, a new revision will b= e submitted soon with following updates:

 

   - Make the style more consistent with ot= her OLSRv2-RFC suite. 

 

   - Make the reactive multipath calculatio= n optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modifi= cation won't impact interoperability. 

 

   - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.&nbs= p;

 

   - Clarify the generation/update of Multi= -path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)

 

   - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the mu= ltipath Dijkstra algorithm

 

 

regards

 

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************<= u>

 


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[86.176.31.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id xz3sm12584013wjb.35.2016.06.04.15.53.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 04 Jun 2016 15:53:18 -0700 (PDT) References: <9E43B0B9-6E89-4EBA-BCD3-D217673912B9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-29FC8AC3-F2D2-4134-995F-7686489D722D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <53AFB51F-32DE-418D-95DB-C666E33AA8BC@gmail.com> X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13F69) From: Christopher Dearlove Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2016 23:53:15 +0100 To: Jiazi YI Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , Christopher Dearlove , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 22:53:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail-29FC8AC3-F2D2-4134-995F-7686489D722D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There we need to know what behaviour is. But there's no need for the destina= tion to care - the packet is for it, it's not being forwarded, who cares if t= here's a source routing header or not? Or at least that's a sensible way to i= mplement. What do real implementations do? But that's an aside from the point I made about indicating about not adverti= sing neighbours. Which you challenged, but I think are now indicating you ca= n see why. In fact I think I understated it.=20 Advertising addresses in such a TC message is almost never of any use. Almos= t never? If other routers only advertise MPR selectors, never useful. If the= y might advertise other links, possibly useful. Except likely damaging if wi= th a significantly longer interval. Which reinforces an earlier made point that discussing advertised links is s= omething this draft should do, and doesn't. In addition to these extra TC me= ssages not advertising links if at a significantly longer interval. -- =20 Christopher Dearlove > On 4 Jun 2016, at 23:39, Jiazi YI wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote: >> Being advertised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to lo= ok at the directionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgoing, no= t incoming. >>=20 >> If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter. But why? A= ll a destination needs to do is receive packets. >=20 > There is a source routing header in the packets, the destination needs to k= now how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviour would be unpredictable.=20 > =20 >>=20 >> However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise other addresses. W= hich is back at the point I was making about not advertising other addresses= . Not needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated. >=20 > I would agree with not advertising other addresses.=20 >=20 > Jiazi > =20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> Christopher Dearlove >>=20 >>> On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI wrote: >>>=20 >>> As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" c= onstructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right? >>>=20 >>> An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC mes= sage will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages.=20 >>> Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to know t= he neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not.=20 >>> Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can= provide such information.=20 >>>=20 >>> Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know a destinat= ion is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to such destina= tion.=20 >>>=20 >>> best >>>=20 >>> Jiazi=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove wrote: >>>> Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertisi= ng just the source route TLV? >>>>=20 >>>> A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be a= n intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed u= sing HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) >>>>=20 >>>> So what's the use case for this feature? >>>>=20 >>>> --=20 >>>> Christopher Dearlove >>>>=20 >>>>> On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >>>>>> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhap= s some guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses ei= ther gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised with a shor= t validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested= words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nit= pick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) th= en the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are know= n to be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded.= It=E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken s= ensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, suppli= ed by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much detail to go= into. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresse= s" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because i= f a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means t= hat there is no link to report.=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> Jiazi >>>>> =20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Christopher Dearlove >>>>>> Senior Principal Engineer >>>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >>>>>> _____________________________________________________________________= _____ >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great B= addow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jia= zi YI >>>>>> Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59 >>>>>> To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >>>>>> Cc: manet >>>>>> Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finish= ed >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *** WARNING *** >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an= external partner or the internet. >>>>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any at= tachments or reply. >>>>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emai= ls you receive, click here. >>>>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi Chris,=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thanks very much. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the S= R_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVA= L doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All the MP= -OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise SOURCE_= ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the originators support s= ource routing), in case they are not required to generate TC messages.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> best >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Jiazi >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they h= ave long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about tho= se links, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals ar= e not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 cha= nce of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link co= uld, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about conv= ergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum interval.) If n= ot, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links like any othe= r. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s= the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on sce= narios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVA= L is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density where there are MP= routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> -- >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Christopher Dearlove >>>>>> Senior Principal Engineer >>>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories >>>>>> _____________________________________________________________________= _____ >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great B= addow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI >>>>>> Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25 >>>>>> To: manet >>>>>> Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *** WARNING *** >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an= external partner or the internet. >>>>>> Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any at= tachments or reply. >>>>>> For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emai= ls you receive, click here. >>>>>> If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> *** WARNING *** >>>>>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organizati= on. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Hi all,=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got= valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon= with following updates: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive= and reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact intero= perability.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is= related to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm= >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on mu= ltipath calculation. As indicated in https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/m= anet/current/msg19038.html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no= issue related to this has been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-sel= ection algorithm used, we can put it as one of the experimental points to ma= ke people pay attention to it, so that new issues can be reported.=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> regards >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> =20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Jiazi >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> ******************************************************************** >>>>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >>>>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >>>>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >>>>>> distribute its contents to any other person. >>>>>> ******************************************************************** >>>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> manet mailing list >>>>> manet@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >=20 --Apple-Mail-29FC8AC3-F2D2-4134-995F-7686489D722D Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There we need to know what behaviour i= s. But there's no need for the destination to care - the packet is for it, i= t's not being forwarded, who cares if there's a source routing header or not= ? Or at least that's a sensible way to implement. What do real implementatio= ns do?

But that's an aside from the point I made about indicating about not= advertising neighbours. Which you challenged, but I think are now indicatin= g you can see why.

In fact I think I understated it. 

Advertising add= resses in such a TC message is almost never of any use. Almost never? If oth= er routers only advertise MPR selectors, never useful. If they might adverti= se other links, possibly useful. Except likely damaging if with a significan= tly longer interval.

Which reinforces an earlier made point that discussing a= dvertised links is something this draft should do, and doesn't. In addition t= o these extra TC messages not advertising links if at a significantly longer= interval.

--  
Christopher= Dearlove

On 4 Jun 2016, at 23:39, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:



On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christ= opher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote:<= br>
Being advertised in o= ther routers' messages doesn't help - you need to look at the directionality= of the links, links in TC messages are outgoing, not incoming.
If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter. B= ut why? All a destination needs to do is receive packets.

There is a source routing header in the packets, t= he destination needs to know how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviour wou= ld be unpredictable. 
 

However suppose that it is needed, n= o need to advertise other addresses. Which is back at the point I was making= about not advertising other addresses. Not needed, even harmful, in the cas= es I indicated.

I would agree wi= th not advertising other addresses. 

Jiazi
 


-- 
Christopher D= earlove

On 4 Jun 20= 16, at 21:15, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

=
As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the= "topology graph" constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, r= ight?

An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighb= ors in its own TC message will be advertised in other router's (or routers')= TC messages. 
Of course, the router receiving such TC messag= es won't be able to know the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not. 
Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV c= an provide such information. 

Other than being= intermediate routers, it's important to know a destination is MP-OLSR enabl= ed, if we want to use multi-path routing to such destination. 

best

Jiazi 

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9= :04 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
= Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of advertising ju= st the source route TLV?

A router that doesn't adve= rtise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an intermediate router on a rou= te. (Exception for two hop routes constructed using HELLO messages, but thos= e should only be transient.)

So what's the use case= for this feature?

-- 
Christo= pher Dearlove


On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is just t= o advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it should a= dvertise as neighbours.

 =

I think if advertising at a= slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I describe= d, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.=

 =

I think what you want is so= mething like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much g= reater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mess= age SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be except= ionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80=99s b= asically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link= information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be t= oo much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresse= s" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because i= f a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally means t= hat there is no link to report. 

Jiazi
 

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris= .dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From:<= span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma"= ,"sans-serif""> yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finish= ed

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

Hi Chris, 

 

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher= (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find m= y editorial comments.

 

Thanks very much.

  

 =

While the below is generall= y as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all o= f my concern.

 

 

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the long= er SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity t= ime. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLS= R. 

 

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to a= dvertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the orig= inators support source routing), in case they are not required to generate T= C messages. 

 

best

 

Jiazi

 

 

 =

We have some routers puttin= g out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chosen= by pot luck.

 =

(Example, four routers in a= square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neighbou= r as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each dir= ection, all else being equal.)

 =

So why can we accept some l= inks having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short i= nitial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP ro= uter. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long validity= time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

 =

You note simulations done. B= ut what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not oversh= ort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Be= cause that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

 =

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
______________________________________= ____________________________________

T:  = +44 (0)1245 2= 42194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford T= echnology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP<= u>

 =

From: manet [mailto:manet-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Con= sider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachments o= r reply.
For= information regarding Red Flags= that you can look out for in emails you receive= , click here.
If y= ou feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our o= rganization.

 

Hi all, 

 

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has f= inished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= /u>

 

Based on the comments received, a new revision will b= e submitted soon with following updates:

 

   - Make the style more consistent with ot= her OLSRv2-RFC suite. 

 

   - Make the reactive multipath calculatio= n optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modifi= cation won't impact interoperability. 

 

   - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.&nbs= p;

 

   - Clarify the generation/update of Multi= -path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)

 

   - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the mu= ltipath Dijkstra algorithm

 

 

regards

 

Jiazi

********************************************************************
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= --Apple-Mail-29FC8AC3-F2D2-4134-995F-7686489D722D-- From nobody Sat Jun 4 16:17:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCC112D609 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 16:16:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yfc_JRB7iPfq for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 16:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2ED5B12B043 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id w16so74427561lfd.2 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 16:16:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=b4YJFIeXOma6hZQuAxyF1aYe+8xZZvIFjTMH8IyJ1pk=; b=j9A4Ne7yXduhBoFw16yUJKLJaymzSzkbdiY/3+HVw3TXhT+Z9Zd6EDQ52BGeX7a1mr JfH5VXYMYVp+igvPFCWwMmNadTP9DYTFNC2c1hG2s00T+H52iXphDR/iSIXmHxrIvmWG T7K2+b0BdP7U2uR5rnAGpkH0yR/rdqrDQ+NKWUblP7XBA0RAndZ3ZRD1se688gvft3zo pkvljunv5/N+zBVsx3ZAnuJ/cZFUYizpFKMNxR37QNgLgD4eauIOPIgQukkBq46vLWdU p9sI0xT9l4JjgYnKCDAN84QPyMFDAPFsvWwzF1MU/ZeE0PQu3ODBe0i7k1fX9spYM1J9 vEqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=b4YJFIeXOma6hZQuAxyF1aYe+8xZZvIFjTMH8IyJ1pk=; b=QV6kihWE1zhX1XeQ+iBP2RGFfGK5ooX9xSX0uydLG0qEuMN8ibK0Ijd782MCDGpIhm TCFmZvsISFeaV77UpfCpCzHtoiP63HGJL3hzgDSJJzl0TUB4IDA4eEhCXV1tNbGIzKxM MCAM95m1AJXEkZcQQFRArpJ7R5OEH/soICDMzsPr4z+ZTNuqH+8yDTfx0IM/rVoIQRQA hVXgRJypOzieobdn5PsrOE76muaeJ3RCIncBH6/Yb5+UgAgMR3fLED+0VStNmzRAB5Id cp72Btezl3xJTLK6vlt/mjvJIeXRXYabiSMTh5WXT1V8ZGIKKyAyZtTFWHeIMgU66Zzn UKLw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJEURE0IndMfpHjF7yc9bo6Oe+6HqY1RWScVIQsbVL24tTbuBa5Eri/uYymloQo+maKnreyTGQBKescfg== X-Received: by 10.25.24.95 with SMTP id o92mr382736lfi.58.1465082211283; Sat, 04 Jun 2016 16:16:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.77.4 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Jun 2016 16:16:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <53AFB51F-32DE-418D-95DB-C666E33AA8BC@gmail.com> References: <9E43B0B9-6E89-4EBA-BCD3-D217673912B9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <53AFB51F-32DE-418D-95DB-C666E33AA8BC@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 01:16:50 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: Grpt7b6JwJon_fsHs3INkyDI3lI Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11408220c53fd305347c0865 Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2016 23:16:58 -0000 --001a11408220c53fd305347c0865 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Christopher Dearlove < christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > There we need to know what behaviour is. But there's no need for the > destination to care - the packet is for it, it's not being forwarded, who > cares if there's a source routing header or not? Or at least that's a > sensible way to implement. What do real implementations do? > It's *possible* that the destination doesn't understand the source routing header and dropped it directly. It really depends on the implementation. To make sure that the packet is delivered, we use multipath only to the SRC_ROUTE supported routers -- or else, falling back to single path. > > But that's an aside from the point I made about indicating about not > advertising neighbours. Which you challenged, but I think are now > indicating you can see why. > > In fact I think I understated it. > > Advertising addresses in such a TC message is almost never of any use. > Almost never? If other routers only advertise MPR selectors, never useful= . > If they might advertise other links, possibly useful. Except likely > damaging if with a significantly longer interval. > > Which reinforces an earlier made point that discussing advertised links i= s > something this draft should do, and doesn't. In addition to these extra T= C > messages not advertising links if at a significantly longer interval. > We will add some text about that. best Jiazi > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > > On 4 Jun 2016, at 23:39, Jiazi YI wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove < > chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote: > >> Being advertised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to >> look at the directionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgoi= ng, >> not incoming. >> >> If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter. But why? >> All a destination needs to do is receive packets. >> > > There is a source routing header in the packets, the destination needs to > know how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviour would be unpredictable. > > >> >> However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise other addresses. >> Which is back at the point I was making about not advertising other >> addresses. Not needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated. >> > > I would agree with not advertising other addresses. > > Jiazi > > >> >> >> -- >> Christopher Dearlove >> >> On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI wrote: >> >> As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" >> constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right? >> >> An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC >> message will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages. >> Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to know >> the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not. >> Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can >> provide such information. >> >> Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know a >> destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to >> such destination. >> >> best >> >> Jiazi >> >> On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove < >> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of >>> advertising just the source route TLV? >>> >>> A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be >>> an intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes >>> constructed using HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) >>> >>> So what's the use case for this feature? >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Dearlove >>> >>> On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >>> >>>> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps >>>> some guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses >>>> either gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised wit= h a >>>> short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad= idea. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested >>>> words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone wil= l >>>> nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold >>>> time) then the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the = links >>>> are known to be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be include= d or >>>> excluded. It=E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT = can be broken >>>> sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information, >>>> supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much >>>> detail to go into. >>>> >>> >>> Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report addresses= " >>> in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyways? Because= if >>> a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it generally mea= ns >>> that there is no link to report. >>> >>> Jiazi >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *-- * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >>>> Intelligence Laboratories * >>>> *_____________________________________________________________________= _____ >>>> * >>>> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>> >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >>>> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>> >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>> >>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of *= Jiazi >>>> YI >>>> *Sent:* 01 June 2016 21:59 >>>> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >>>> *Cc:* manet >>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC >>>> finished >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> **** WARNING **** >>>> >>>> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an >>>> external partner or the internet.* >>>> >>>> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >>>> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you >>>> can look out for in emails you receive, click here >>>> .* >>>> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >>>> .* >>>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks very much. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the >>>> SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVAL >>>> doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All th= e >>>> MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise >>>> SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the origina= tors >>>> support source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC >>>> messages. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> best >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jiazi >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they >>>> have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different ab= out >>>> those links, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals are >>>> not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 >>>> chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link >>>> could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried ab= out >>>> convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum inter= val.) >>>> If not, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links lik= e any >>>> other. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (that= =E2=80=99s >>>> the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on >>>> scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic >>>> TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density wh= ere >>>> there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the pr= oblem case >>>> here. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *-- * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >>>> Intelligence Laboratories * >>>> *_____________________________________________________________________= _____ >>>> * >>>> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>> >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >>>> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>> >>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>> >>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI >>>> *Sent:* 30 May 2016 22:25 >>>> *To:* manet >>>> *Subject:* [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> **** WARNING **** >>>> >>>> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an >>>> external partner or the internet.* >>>> >>>> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >>>> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you >>>> can look out for in emails you receive, click here >>>> .* >>>> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >>>> .* >>>> >>>> **** **WARNING ****** >>>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organizatio= n >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got >>>> valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon >>>> with following updates: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive >>>> and reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact >>>> interoperability. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is >>>> related to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on >>>> multipath calculation. As indicated in >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038.html , >>>> with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this = has >>>> been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm used= , we >>>> can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay attent= ion >>>> to it, so that new issues can be reported. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> regards >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Jiazi >>>> >>>> ******************************************************************** >>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >>>> distribute its contents to any other person. >>>> ******************************************************************** >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> manet mailing list >>> manet@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >>> >>> >> > --001a11408220c53fd305347c0865 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Christopher Dearlove <= ;christ= opher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
There we need to know what behaviour is. But t= here's no need for the destination to care - the packet is for it, it&#= 39;s not being forwarded, who cares if there's a source routing header = or not? Or at least that's a sensible way to implement. What do real im= plementations do?

It's *pos= sible* that the destination doesn't understand the source routing heade= r and dropped it directly. It really depends on the implementation. To make= sure that the packet is delivered, we use multipath only to the SRC_ROUTE = supported routers -- or else, falling back to single path.=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0

But that's an aside from the point I made about in= dicating about not advertising neighbours. Which you challenged, but I thin= k are now indicating you can see why.

In fact I th= ink I understated it.=C2=A0

Advertising addresses = in such a TC message is almost never of any use. Almost never? If other rou= ters only advertise MPR selectors, never useful. If they might advertise ot= her links, possibly useful. Except likely damaging if with a significantly = longer interval.

Which reinforces an earlier made = point that discussing advertised links is something this draft should do, a= nd doesn't. In addition to these extra TC messages not advertising link= s if at a significantly longer interval.

<= /div>
We will add some text about that.=C2=A0

= best

Jiazi
=C2=A0

-- =C2=A0
Christopher Dearlove

On 4 Jun 2016, at 23:39, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wro= te:


<= /div>

On Sun, Jun = 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon= .co.uk> wrote:
Being advertised in other routers' messages doesn't help= - you need to look at the directionality of the links, links in TC message= s are outgoing, not incoming.

If you need to know = destinations are MP that's another matter. But why? All a destination n= eeds to do is receive packets.

= There is a source routing header in the packets, the destination needs to k= now how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviour would be unpredictable.=C2= =A0
=C2=A0
=

However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise= other addresses. Which is back at the point I was making about not adverti= sing other addresses. Not needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated.

I would agree with not advertisi= ng other addresses.=C2=A0

Jiazi
=C2=A0


--=C2=A0
Christopher Dearlove
<= /div>

On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:
As long as a rou= ter has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" construct= ed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right?

= An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC me= ssage will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC message= s.=C2=A0
Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won'= ;t be able to know the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not.=C2=A0
Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can = provide such information.=C2=A0

Other than being i= ntermediate routers, it's important to know a destination is MP-OLSR en= abled, if we want to use multi-path routing to such destination.=C2=A0

best

Jiazi=C2=A0
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Sat, Jun 4, 201= 6 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmai= l.com> wrote:
Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of= advertising just the source route TLV?

A router t= hat doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be an int= ermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes constructed usin= g HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.)

=
So what's the use case for this feature?

--=C2=A0
Christopher Dearlove

On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:



On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10= :45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.= com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is jus= t to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it shou= ld advertise as neighbours.

=C2=A0

I think if advertising at= a slower rate, advertising any addresses either gets into the trap I descr= ibed, or alternatively advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.

=C2=A0

I think what you want is = something like (this is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is mu= ch greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mes= sage SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be exce= ptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80= =99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local lin= k information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be= too much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report= addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC m= essage anyways? Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC= _INTERVAL, it generally means that there is no link to report.=C2=A0
<= div>
Jiazi
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finis= hed

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***<= /b>

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.=

Hi Chris,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christophe= r (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find= my editorial comments.

=C2=A0

Thanks very much.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

While the below is genera= lly as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures a= ll of my concern.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the lon= ger SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer val= idity time. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as require= d by OLSR.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to = advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the or= iginators support source routing), in case they are not required to generat= e TC messages.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We have some routers putt= ing out infrequent TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chose= n by pot luck.

=C2=A0

(Example, four routers in= a square, all sides are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neigh= bour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each di= rection, all else being equal.)

=C2=A0

So why can we accept some= links having long durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short = initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP = router. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long valid= ity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

=C2=A0

You note simulations done= . But what simulations have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overs= hort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? = Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: =C2= =A0+44 (0)12= 45 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside ou= r organization.

=C2=A0

Hi all,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has= finished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= u>

=C2=A0

Based on the comments received, a new revision will = be submitted soon with following updates:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the style more consistent with o= ther OLSRv2-RFC suite.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the reactive multipath calculati= on optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modi= fication won't impact interoperability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the generation/update of Mult= i-path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of fp and fe in the m= ultipath Dijkstra algorithm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chris raised the concern about impact= partial topology map on multipath calculation. As indicated in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038= .html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this ha= s been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion to it, so that new issues can be reported.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************=

=C2=A0


_= ______________________________________________
manet mailin= g list
= manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/man= et



--001a11408220c53fd305347c0865-- From nobody Sun Jun 5 02:52:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0AE612D115 for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2016 02:52:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id typJR-Y0dq5b for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2016 02:52:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x231.google.com (mail-lf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0902812D0EA for ; Sun, 5 Jun 2016 02:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id w16so78190948lfd.2 for ; Sun, 05 Jun 2016 02:52:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=1z6zuK9iRp7COLXhYFvJUs602V+vXvU/lUZh7SO+za0=; b=JcqQ6cVbjeeArkAUKnH7e+pvVmfPPk4GykabSR6rWzv5AeqimuLwjvEZLGyB/oxVd6 uAg5uvoWbGA2RdWyV0l5DNx8Fou5k1z7DNKVZWaush0QcxS0MexqiUjWdNtnF+Drmf49 90/8CpI8V+LweDHFVagSRtk9Ry7VGqXGcoLpFeOvomqo+iFzKO7bRI4yumFJGsvie8pU FbwiOXbjC+U1CG7a1g0Z9EXiOv8z8d4FicUHmACEqzQb2PxjOweUC7weg95A07lF+Zha BJYwgWTwwjtIb+1qV91dIDiJNxg/4MeE6ICEn5B/gYzRz3GgnEMF2rVEUpYXJhnOKxN9 ti6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1z6zuK9iRp7COLXhYFvJUs602V+vXvU/lUZh7SO+za0=; b=XXi9BZx5BST7JBhrEtfXHk9m1DtlMTbsjV2KGs8YozVfHiVysEskcwEd/0QBPF+Gm8 cAYpl7D+SLtS/cVADu2PQnAtHIEVUCobRlg+Oq2jap0eJWq4gZzFKRh8ETQJ6HVQppzd Cw/pte6Y2lQNGrLQuiIC6j0kpVWnanSaCWbdC8+otS+NpM6sIc1sRVfy/j109GclDy+9 P0Rn1eDuyqkqHq9OucfLHAfXy8+H0X4TW326SAs6RkqmiC2dnJZi5dix24VWP2jSCIYV Wvnhv+Mla7xsDIRLyaoeC/eQetk7boF//k64vkJePs0+7yq3r87TPPLJSQ15Ye0VDRGz EVyg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK7rFzKJ5OQLeFfonO4qi+xcjEGH9OaXvOXxbqeiJ3nglFRHLagQD8eejyqRV0avK/gnYd+rVMG2wfzrQ== X-Received: by 10.25.209.4 with SMTP id i4mr5523lfg.20.1465120360028; Sun, 05 Jun 2016 02:52:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.77.4 with HTTP; Sun, 5 Jun 2016 02:52:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9E43B0B9-6E89-4EBA-BCD3-D217673912B9@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> <53AFB51F-32DE-418D-95DB-C666E33AA8BC@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2016 11:52:38 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: R6pfKvdPtyf_fxVDcekk8x-hEXc Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001a114128209d05e2053484ea47 Archived-At: Cc: manet Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2016 09:52:50 -0000 --001a114128209d05e2053484ea47 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114128209d05dd053484ea45 --001a114128209d05dd053484ea45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is the text that we proposed: TC message are generated according to the Section 16.1 of [RFC7181]. As least one TC message MUST be generated by an MP-OLSRv2 Routing Process during SR_TC_INTERVAL. Please note that the TC message generation based on SR_TC_INTERVAL does not replace the ordinary TC message generation specified in [RFC7181] and does not carry any address. This is due to the fact that not all routers will generate TC messages based on OLSRv2. The TC generation based on SR_TC_INTERVAL serves for those routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV so that the other routers can be aware of the source-route enabled routers so as to be used as destinations of multipath routing. The SR_TC_INTERVAL is normally set to a longer value than TC_INTERVAL. I aslo have a -09alpha revision attached. We will submit a new revision soon. If there are any further comments, please let us know. regards Jiazi On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 1:16 AM, Jiazi YI wrote: > > On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Christopher Dearlove < > christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > >> There we need to know what behaviour is. But there's no need for the >> destination to care - the packet is for it, it's not being forwarded, wh= o >> cares if there's a source routing header or not? Or at least that's a >> sensible way to implement. What do real implementations do? >> > > It's *possible* that the destination doesn't understand the source routin= g > header and dropped it directly. It really depends on the implementation. = To > make sure that the packet is delivered, we use multipath only to the > SRC_ROUTE supported routers -- or else, falling back to single path. > > > >> >> But that's an aside from the point I made about indicating about not >> advertising neighbours. Which you challenged, but I think are now >> indicating you can see why. >> >> In fact I think I understated it. >> >> Advertising addresses in such a TC message is almost never of any use. >> Almost never? If other routers only advertise MPR selectors, never usefu= l. >> If they might advertise other links, possibly useful. Except likely >> damaging if with a significantly longer interval. >> >> Which reinforces an earlier made point that discussing advertised links >> is something this draft should do, and doesn't. In addition to these ext= ra >> TC messages not advertising links if at a significantly longer interval. >> > > We will add some text about that. > > best > > Jiazi > > >> >> -- >> Christopher Dearlove >> >> On 4 Jun 2016, at 23:39, Jiazi YI wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove < >> chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> Being advertised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to >>> look at the directionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgo= ing, >>> not incoming. >>> >>> If you need to know destinations are MP that's another matter. But why? >>> All a destination needs to do is receive packets. >>> >> >> There is a source routing header in the packets, the destination needs t= o >> know how to deal with it. Or else, the behaviour would be unpredictable. >> >> >>> >>> However suppose that it is needed, no need to advertise other addresses= . >>> Which is back at the point I was making about not advertising other >>> addresses. Not needed, even harmful, in the cases I indicated. >>> >> >> I would agree with not advertising other addresses. >> >> Jiazi >> >> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Christopher Dearlove >>> >>> On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15, Jiazi YI wrote: >>> >>> As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "topology graph" >>> constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route, right? >>> >>> An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any neighbors in its own TC >>> message will be advertised in other router's (or routers') TC messages. >>> Of course, the router receiving such TC messages won't be able to know >>> the neighbors are MP-OLSR enabled or not. >>> Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carrying the SRC_ROUTE TLV ca= n >>> provide such information. >>> >>> Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know a >>> destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to >>> such destination. >>> >>> best >>> >>> Jiazi >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove < >>> christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what's the use of >>>> advertising just the source route TLV? >>>> >>>> A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can't be >>>> an intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes >>>> constructed using HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.) >>>> >>>> So what's the use case for this feature? >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Christopher Dearlove >>>> >>>> On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV, then perhap= s >>>>> some guidance on what it should advertise as neighbours. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think if advertising at a slower rate, advertising any addresses >>>>> either gets into the trap I described, or alternatively advertised wi= th a >>>>> short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a ba= d idea. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think what you want is something like (this is not actual suggested >>>>> words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_INTERVAL (someone wi= ll >>>>> nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hol= d >>>>> time) then the TC message SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the= links >>>>> are known to be exceptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be includ= ed or >>>>> excluded. It=E2=80=99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT= can be broken >>>>> sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local link information= , >>>>> supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be too much >>>>> detail to go into. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report >>>> addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC message anyw= ays? >>>> Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC_INTERVAL, it >>>> generally means that there is no link to report. >>>> >>>> Jiazi >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *-- * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >>>>> Intelligence Laboratories * >>>>> *____________________________________________________________________= ______ >>>>> * >>>>> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>>> >>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >>>>> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>>> >>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>>> >>>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] *On Behalf Of = *Jiazi >>>>> YI >>>>> *Sent:* 01 June 2016 21:59 >>>>> *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK) >>>>> *Cc:* manet >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC >>>>> finished >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> **** WARNING **** >>>>> >>>>> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from a= n >>>>> external partner or the internet.* >>>>> >>>>> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >>>>> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that >>>>> you can look out for in emails you receive, click here >>>>> .* >>>>> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >>>>> .* >>>>> >>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < >>>>> chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I will at some point find my editorial comments. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks very much. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> While the below is generally as discussed, I don=E2=80=99t think the >>>>> SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the longer SR_TC_INTERVA= L >>>>> doesn't imply that the related links have longer validity time. All t= he >>>>> MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as required by OLSR. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to advertise >>>>> SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the origin= ators >>>>> support source routing), in case they are not required to generate TC >>>>> messages. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> best >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jiazi >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We have some routers putting out infrequent TCs. This must mean they >>>>> have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different a= bout >>>>> those links, they can be chosen by pot luck. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Example, four routers in a square, all sides are links, diagonals ar= e >>>>> not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/= 2 >>>>> chance of being advertised in each direction, all else being equal.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So why can we accept some links having long durations? If any link >>>>> could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried a= bout >>>>> convergence, set either a short initial value or a short minimum inte= rval.) >>>>> If not, then consider a non-MP router. To it, those are just links li= ke any >>>>> other. And may have long validity time but short useful lifetime (tha= t=E2=80=99s >>>>> the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You note simulations done. But what simulations have been done on >>>>> scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic >>>>> TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overshort, and scenarios/density w= here >>>>> there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? Because that=E2=80=99s the p= roblem case >>>>> here. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *-- * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied >>>>> Intelligence Laboratories * >>>>> *____________________________________________________________________= ______ >>>>> * >>>>> *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >>>>> >>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great >>>>> Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. >>>>> www.baesystems.com/ai >>>>> >>>>> BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited >>>>> Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >>>>> >>>>> Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI >>>>> *Sent:* 30 May 2016 22:25 >>>>> *To:* manet >>>>> *Subject:* [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> **** WARNING **** >>>>> >>>>> *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from a= n >>>>> external partner or the internet.* >>>>> >>>>> * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any >>>>> attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that >>>>> you can look out for in emails you receive, click here >>>>> .* >>>>> * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process >>>>> .* >>>>> >>>>> **** **WARNING ****** >>>>> EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organizati= on >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has finished. We got >>>>> valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Based on the comments received, a new revision will be submitted soon >>>>> with following updates: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Make the style more consistent with other OLSRv2-RFC suite. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Make the reactive multipath calculation optional. Both proactive >>>>> and reactive calculation can be used. Such modification won't impact >>>>> interoperability. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Clarify the generation/update of Multi-path routing Set (this is >>>>> related to reactive/proactive calculation also) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Clarify the use of fp and fe in the multipath Dijkstra algorithm >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Chris raised the concern about impact partial topology map on >>>>> multipath calculation. As indicated in >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038.html , >>>>> with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this= has >>>>> been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we >>>>> can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion >>>>> to it, so that new issues can be reported. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> regards >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Jiazi >>>>> >>>>> ******************************************************************** >>>>> This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended >>>>> recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >>>>> recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. >>>>> You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or >>>>> distribute its contents to any other person. >>>>> ******************************************************************** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> manet mailing list >>>> manet@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >>>> >>>> >>> >> > --001a114128209d05dd053484ea45 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here is the text that we proposed:

TC m= essage are generated according to the Section 16.1 of [RFC7181]. As least o= ne TC message MUST be generated by an MP-OLSRv2 Routing Process during SR_T= C_INTERVAL. Please note that the TC message generation based on SR_TC_INTER= VAL does not replace the ordinary TC message generation specified in [RFC71= 81] and does not carry any address. This is due to the fact that not all ro= uters will generate TC messages based on OLSRv2. The TC generation based on= SR_TC_INTERVAL serves for those routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV so t= hat the other routers can be aware of the source-route enabled routers so a= s to be used as destinations of multipath routing. The SR_TC_INTERVAL is no= rmally set to a longer value than TC_INTERVAL.

I a= slo have a -09alpha revision attached. We will submit a new revision soon. = If there are any further comments, please let us know.=C2=A0

=
regards

Jiazi

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 1:16 AM, = Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 12:53 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
There we need to know what behaviour is. But th= ere's no need for the destination to care - the packet is for it, it= 9;s not being forwarded, who cares if there's a source routing header o= r not? Or at least that's a sensible way to implement. What do real imp= lementations do?

It'= s *possible* that the destination doesn't understand the source routing= header and dropped it directly. It really depends on the implementation. T= o make sure that the packet is delivered, we use multipath only to the SRC_= ROUTE supported routers -- or else, falling back to single path.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

But that's an aside from the point I made= about indicating about not advertising neighbours. Which you challenged, b= ut I think are now indicating you can see why.

In = fact I think I understated it.=C2=A0

Advertising a= ddresses in such a TC message is almost never of any use. Almost never? If = other routers only advertise MPR selectors, never useful. If they might adv= ertise other links, possibly useful. Except likely damaging if with a signi= ficantly longer interval.

Which reinforces an earl= ier made point that discussing advertised links is something this draft sho= uld do, and doesn't. In addition to these extra TC messages not adverti= sing links if at a significantly longer interval.
<= div>
We will add some text about that.=C2=A0

best

Jiazi<= /div>
=C2=A0

-- =C2=A0=
Christopher Dearlove
=

On 4 Jun 2016, at 23:39, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

=

On Sun, Jun 5, 20= 16 at 12:23 AM, Christopher Dearlove <chris@mnemosyne.demon.co.u= k> wrote:
Being ad= vertised in other routers' messages doesn't help - you need to look= at the directionality of the links, links in TC messages are outgoing, not= incoming.

If you need to know destinations are MP= that's another matter. But why? All a destination needs to do is recei= ve packets.

There is a source r= outing header in the packets, the destination needs to know how to deal wit= h it. Or else, the behaviour would be unpredictable.=C2=A0
=C2=A0=

However suppos= e that it is needed, no need to advertise other addresses. Which is back at= the point I was making about not advertising other addresses. Not needed, = even harmful, in the cases I indicated.

I would agree with not advertising other addresses.=C2=A0

Jiazi
=C2=A0


--=C2=A0
Christopher De= arlove

On 4 Jun 2016, at 21:15,= Jiazi YI <ietf@ji= aziyi.com> wrote:

As long as a router has more than two neighbors in the "top= ology graph" constructed, it can be an intermediate router on a route,= right?

An MP-OLSR router that doesn't advertise any= neighbors in its own TC message will be advertised in other router's (= or routers') TC messages.=C2=A0
Of course, the router receivi= ng such TC messages won't be able to know the neighbors are MP-OLSR ena= bled or not.=C2=A0
Having the MP-OLSR originating TC message carr= ying the SRC_ROUTE TLV can provide such information.=C2=A0

Other than being intermediate routers, it's important to know = a destination is MP-OLSR enabled, if we want to use multi-path routing to s= uch destination.=C2=A0

best

Jiazi=C2=A0

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Actually, as I should have thought earlier, what'= ;s the use of advertising just the source route TLV?

A router that doesn't advertise any neighbours in TC messages can= 9;t be an intermediate router on a route. (Exception for two hop routes con= structed using HELLO messages, but those should only be transient.)

So what's the use case for this feature?

--=C2=A0
Christopher Dearlove

On 3 Jun 2016, at 21:25, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:


On Thu, Jun = 2, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlov= e@baesystems.com> wrote:

OK, if the purpose is just to advertise SOUR= CE_ROUTE TLV, then perhaps some guidance on what it should advertise as nei= ghbours.

=C2=A0

I think if advertising at a slower rate, adv= ertising any addresses either gets into the trap I described, or alternativ= ely advertised with a short validity time then those links will be transient, which is a bad idea.

=C2=A0

I think what you want is something like (thi= s is not actual suggested words) if SR_TC_INTERVAL is much greater than TC_= INTERVAL (someone will nitpick over much greater, so perhaps in terms of the appropriate hold time) then the TC mes= sage SHOULD NOT report any addresses [unless the links are known to be exce= ptionally stable] - the bit in [] could be included or excluded. It=E2=80= =99s basically an indication of when the SHOULD NOT can be broken sensibly. Known to be stable can be taken from local lin= k information, supplied by neighbour, plus local knowledge. But that may be= too much detail to go into.


Is it necessary to specify that the router "SHOULD NOT report= addresses" in this case? I think it will be an "empty" TC m= essage anyways? Because if a router doesn't generate TC message with TC= _INTERVAL, it generally means that there is no link to report.=C2=A0
<= div>
Jiazi
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--

Christopher De= arlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_____________________________________________________= _____________________

T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194<= /a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, = Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office= : Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 01 June 2016 21:59
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finis= hed

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either f= rom an external partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether= you should click on any links, open any attachments or reply.<= br> For information regarding = Red Flags that you = can look out for in emails you receive, click here.
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Hi Chris,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 4:21 PM, Dearlove, Christophe= r (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I will at some point find my editorial comme= nts.

=C2=A0

Thanks very much.

=C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

While the below is generally as discussed, I= don=E2=80=99t think the SR_TC_INTERVAL point captures all of my concern.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

In fact, as I mentioned in my previous post, the lon= ger SR_TC_INTERVAL doesn't imply that the related links have longer val= idity time. All the MP-OLSR routers have to generate TC messages as require= d by OLSR.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The SR_TC_INTERVAL is mainly for MP-OLSR routers to = advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV (so that the other routers can learn that the or= iginators support source routing), in case they are not required to generat= e TC messages.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We have some routers putting out infrequent = TCs. This must mean they have long validity times. But there is nothing inherently different about those links, they can be chose= n by pot luck.

=C2=A0

(Example, four routers in a square, all side= s are links, diagonals are not. Each will pick one neighbour as an MPR. Each link will have a 1/2 chance of being advertised in each di= rection, all else being equal.)

=C2=A0

So why can we accept some links having long = durations? If any link could, then why not have a long TC_INTERVAL everywhere? (If worried about convergence, set either a short = initial value or a short minimum interval.) If not, then consider a non-MP = router. To it, those are just links like any other. And may have long valid= ity time but short useful lifetime (that=E2=80=99s the situation we=E2=80=99ve reached here). Which is bad.

=C2=A0

You note simulations done. But what simulati= ons have been done on scenarios with mixed MP and non-MP routers, mobility such that basic TC_INTERVAL is appropriate but not overs= hort, and scenarios/density where there are MP routers not picked as MPRs? = Because that=E2=80=99s the problem case here.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher De= arlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_____________________________________________________= _____________________

T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, = Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office= : Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-= bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 30 May 2016 22:25
To: manet
Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 WGLC finished<= /span>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either f= rom an external partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether= you should click on any links, open any attachments or reply.<= br> For information regarding = Red Flags that you = can look out for in emails you receive, click here.
If you feel the email is s= uspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***<= br> EXTERNAL= EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Hi all,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

The WGLC of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-08 has= finished. We got valuable comments from Chris -- thanks very much!<= u>

=C2=A0

Based on the comments received, a new revision will = be submitted soon with following updates:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the style more consistent with o= ther OLSRv2-RFC suite.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Make the reactive multipath calculati= on optional. Both proactive and reactive calculation can be used. Such modi= fication won't impact interoperability.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of SR_TC_INTERVAL.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the generation/update of Mult= i-path routing Set (this is related to reactive/proactive calculation also)=

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Clarify the use of fp and fe in the m= ultipath Dijkstra algorithm

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Chris raised the concern about impact= partial topology map on multipath calculation. As indicated in=C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg19038= .html , with non-trival amount of studies performed, no issue related to this ha= s been reported yet. As it's related to the MPR-selection algorithm use= d, we can put it as one of the experimental points to make people pay atten= tion to it, so that new issues can be reported.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

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=C2=A0


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15:01:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A79012B051; Mon, 6 Jun 2016 15:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: The IESG To: "IETF-Announce" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160606220126.20931.64194.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 15:01:26 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org, chris.dearlove@baesystems.com, manet@ietf.org, The IESG , rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org, draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Protocol Action: 'Definition of Managed Objects for the Neighborhood Discovery Protocol' to Proposed Standard (draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-07.txt) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2016 22:01:26 -0000 The IESG has approved the following document: - 'Definition of Managed Objects for the Neighborhood Discovery Protocol' (draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis-07.txt) as Proposed Standard This document is the product of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Working Group. The IESG contact persons are Alvaro Retana, Alia Atlas and Deborah Brungard. A URL of this Internet Draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-rfc6779bis/ Technical Summary This document revises, extends, and replaces RFC 6779, which defined the NHDP (RFC6130) related portion of the Management Information Base (MIB) for use with network management protocols in the Internet community. This revision is needed by the update to RFC6130 specified in draft-ietf-manet-nhdp-optimization. Working Group Summary Nothing special to note. Document Quality There is at least one implementation of NHDP-MIB that has been updated according to this specification. A MIB Doctor has reviewed this document. Personnel Document shepherd: Christopher Dearlove. Responsible Area Director is: Alvaro Retana. From nobody Wed Jun 8 15:17:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6F412D736; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:17:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.21.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160608221720.20039.88690.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2016 15:17:20 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2016 22:17:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF. Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) Authors : Jiazi Yi Benoit Parrein Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2016-06-08 Abstract: This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jun 8 15:56:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ACDD12B03F for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:56:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=herberg.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hdRGZ4xwBDGn for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x232.google.com (mail-io0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 874A812D7FC for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x232.google.com with SMTP id m62so23118670iof.0 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=457q6rKdGwUCBnZErO2IzCwfzaQ+s1k++DZHXpekWRw=; b=1+Ers8VxWN+kkw9PgawGEr1j/3PxqYb+84V9BGUi+OqbpcLnyF0bpHkZQomU0rcMZ2 Wk/DY63+ynoPCJFVmTQ+Aud7Aq1kYI1hCiCPS0oD8Kl+NKT6MrmJKI6FBYG9JtNmsGgV c6qraEAzKK3IYfL+cGPkw0whvRqGRGbRJkhCg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=457q6rKdGwUCBnZErO2IzCwfzaQ+s1k++DZHXpekWRw=; b=avyfVHUIvlDhnCL6H87qyc9N3LSAPokavTniK0K1FUkBXczXETWxoqSn+hvAYGqb6P sNy7vn9MmF/7fx7CIOflg4JLy4RDjEEU72JSHa065uegj04t9844R0kSiP4mM9ACp55W F1q5GRAfRWnepbvVwrlnmJ3TmBg/DU6LKwA0lhhQzXEwPnwdOmcCFLI3dPpHie7UGFN4 mZuhQVlY7XddXDcPxFwxLVjy8oP1Jj8srniFu4Niwl9+6W1oygzSwLmY/jXKDFbch7ri v3tK2MQ9227xLvFXKS0A7E4qHcxtcd5N8A+eBIIwALSRaNWckwOJGAOvkxxBGjEjJImb z+Ww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLY0kKA50x4QwlFvMioK3qQw5CmFd9eFh3ces6t05t0GvdtEMjgWk0b5Dbjk23jH9qxg6yjML6rjJKK0g== X-Received: by 10.107.3.104 with SMTP id 101mr12507462iod.40.1465426600646; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 15:56:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.86.146 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:56:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Ulrich Herberg Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 15:56:40 -0700 Message-ID: To: Thomas Clausen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] WGLC request for draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-sec-threats-02 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2016 22:56:43 -0000 (admittedly biased as author), I am also in favor of starting a WGLC. Best regards Ulrich On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 1:38 PM, Thomas Clausen wrote: > > On 31 mai 2016, at 21:43, Jiazi YI wrote: > > Hi, > > We submitted a new revision of draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-sec-threats at the > begin of May. The authors believe that the document is ready for WGLC. > > We would like to ask the WG chairs for a WGLC on the document. > > > +1 > > Other recently-WGLCed documents are either forwarded to the AD, or are > returned to the authors for a revision, so a WGLC of this document would > seem a good way of "keeping the pipeline moving". > > Best, > > Thomas > > > Here is the link to the draft: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-sec-threats-02 . > It tends for informational track. > > regards > > Jiazi > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > From nobody Wed Jun 8 19:51:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33FFA12D68B for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:51:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X6i9mJH4o1w0 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED04F12D181 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id z189so143355799itg.0 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:51:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=MgZ0Wuz1MJy3TFOYcn8pxmifb+cUCIo/T7O0QrX0AQ4=; b=mVzwGK8hFYCT7O+b5s64LM6y0ak0TM/p9mp4cS5gTSuozEMamzIrs5jZ/EfmGAqdBN KqwYlMOs02ur0gNgPZz5Xm8LJG9cZT3XWgyLj43fmpENSt1L5QPr/1jYXMKGo3IHfegg JAz8sGatC4qrMYXESAYas16mpoV18hj333k3Vt8Aq03jLDfVaztpLsS3TBPuDjB81Wvl QVKP6tlLIk1qEBpnbOLF7Bb2kaX7fRjbTfFAdUWuCDQ2LnIuebXDDXNmzJPg9BJSmbdn uAkMWj+r8gqrvcGmFJbpFpYudA5em+Qgh2j75P4RHqh09Iw+WX+0OsSc5jVyEvASUV0C EIbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=MgZ0Wuz1MJy3TFOYcn8pxmifb+cUCIo/T7O0QrX0AQ4=; b=AWyOb9jj/VtvcrptfyS21trqoBpepXgHRSdvn34SW2r38rVUwUIvqfPIcY3zvT9vbd byj+igFKzIQm6/sokhzjozBWQvT50Cog/7lx5PsibAcSxpGdCf8UyAB6cecaVV1dIKtF o46sU/YuEgX8zwAUWaqLjQcX/0Z8f/bS3IgeuhYgf2aCvY5+/qHOAbTaOQHnR3nzkSlQ yR2mFTAygfSqGrLXT9RJf87F8o0msQd0h4bLKvA3bEjecd1tqjmqKvSPRFvxdgKEha09 PbSlBOpLmrfThU2hWsNNyt3CxKu4Zbs3f7FWQu9ceiyVR0Sw4ksK0YzYd4HcfwxFyewT Onww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tICuBR8iWFoCFlLLs6PcF2XYitag5+GZYM7ENw3b4MBEXfCMejoBrEEGNnDtHi4ZunM5zAdLBCwqe2omA== X-Received: by 10.36.47.136 with SMTP id j130mr14139168itj.48.1465440669068; Wed, 08 Jun 2016 19:51:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.84.194 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Jun 2016 19:51:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2bdhdkue4igbxdpmj9rl811f.1465436944797@email.android.com> References: <2bdhdkue4igbxdpmj9rl811f.1465436944797@email.android.com> From: Stan Ratliff Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2016 22:51:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: MANET IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114417fe84f41b0534cf7efd Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Fwd: Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.txt X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2016 02:51:12 -0000 --001a114417fe84f41b0534cf7efd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello MANET WG participants, First off, thanks to Chris Dearlove for his input, and also thanks to Jiazi and Benoit for working on getting the document updated. Since there was quite a bit changed, Justin and myself feel it appropriate to give the WG 1 week, ending on June 15, as another WGLC. Please review and comment. Regards, Stan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Date: Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:17 AM Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.txt To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: manet@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF. Title : Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) Authors : Jiazi Yi Benoit Parrein Filename : draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.txt Pages : 23 Date : 2016-06-08 Abstract: This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 protocol. The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ manet mailing list manet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --001a114417fe84f41b0534cf7efd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello MANET WG participants= ,

First off, thanks to Chris Dearl= ove for his input, and also thanks to Jiazi and Benoit for working on getti= ng the document updated.

Since the= re was quite a bit changed, Justin and myself feel it appropriate to give t= he WG 1 week, ending on June 15, as another WGLC. Please review and comment= .

Regards,
Stan
---------- Forwa= rded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 12:1= 7 AM
Subject: [manet] I-D Action: draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.t= xt
To: i-d-an= nounce@ietf.org
Cc: manet@ietf.org



A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director= ies.
This draft is a work item of the Mobile Ad-hoc Networks of the IETF.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= Multi-path Extension for the Optimized Link State Routing Protocol version= 2 (OLSRv2)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Jiaz= i Yi
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Benoit Parrein
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet= f-manet-olsrv2-multipath-09.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:= 23
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 := 2016-06-08

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This document specifies a multi-path extension for the Optimiz= ed Link
=C2=A0 =C2=A0State Routing Protocol version 2 (OLSRv2) to discover multiple=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0disjoint paths, so as to improve reliability of the OLSRv2 pro= tocol.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The interoperability with OLSRv2 is retained.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath/

There's also a htmlized version available at:
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--001a114417fe84f41b0534cf7efd-- From nobody Fri Jun 10 12:16:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 435D612D526 for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:16:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ac74JU71wUG for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.idirect.net (smtp2.idirect.net [198.180.159.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B28D812D1BC for ; Fri, 10 Jun 2016 12:16:34 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,451,1459828800"; 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[82.132.230.139]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a4sm6932373wjq.40.2016.06.13.14.53.18 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Jun 2016 14:53:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 22:53:01 +0100 To: MANET IETF Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 21:54:34 -0000 I=E2=80=99v looked at draft -09, and I think it still needs work. I have = some followups from previous comments, some new comments, and some = editorial comments that I didn=E2=80=99t get round to making last time. = And this may not be complete, but I=E2=80=99m up against the too short = one week limit set. (I=E2=80=99m afraid we just aren=E2=80=99t getting = given the necessary time in this group. And I seem to be the only one = commenting.) Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? = Not justified. And should make it clear this applies to FEC applied = across packets, not within a packet. Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count = limited, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case. Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? Page 5, fourth bullet, add =E2=80=9Cwith=E2=80=9D after = =E2=80=9Cexperiment=E2=80=9D. Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low = data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small = factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style. Section 4, first paragraph, not requires, perhaps uses. The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The = requirements this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This = point was made about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80= =99t identical, but need to be specified. MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11. CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one. Section 6.1.1, last word, messages. Section 7, capitalise Base. Section 7.1. No need for OLSR in element names, never used anywhere = else. Usual OLSRv2 style is SR_time without valid. Also SR_orig_addr (we = are careful about usage). Delete =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D in multiple element definitions after - PT_=E2=80=A6 Explain n. Note that n may not be same in all cases. PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as = well (e.g Routing Set). Various places, delete =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before Section. Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged = in TC messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on = strongly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added. Section 8.2 Setting what should be SR_orig_addr, add address after = originator. A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry = times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting = sets change. If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike = the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent = on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to = document - and implement. You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases = while waiting. The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this = protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP = process, why mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s = no signalling that includes it. Capitalise all instances of Tuple for consistency. Page 13. Brutally is not really appropriate language. Section 8.5.2, I haven=E2=80=99t had time to review this. Section 9, delete track after experimental. Section 9, related to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how = the final bullet points arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D = mean? Section 10, not reviewed. Appendices, not reviewed. From nobody Mon Jun 13 15:38:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E273D12D732 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f8dObFH9_1Qd for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:38:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE9C612DAD3 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id a5so62168564ita.1 for ; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:38:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=enNmaaKPINSoSsiwd7tL4k/lV7a/3K5uOVM6eMfP0S0=; b=susxWJa5nB30L0y+CzU/xF5AJfMwoLhnkKZkKxGirCfVyQDRG8fE2wqRpgk5TMPpea b2RQ9wH5EUV8L/n5HReQKKwUCVS2qaM/ASDTj3rdUK0yY8kyx3IDaKHP1QlogAd+5XiS WZwy4jwjarLquRD2Z3I74Ik8GGUGMj/tGL+/ZTfZS9fcKca94Y0lRhqJiy9QM1E0VrtH WLDoGNqSBzIqbmMbk37ThPZDCiGhlY9bvUtr6u7t0JKEUSDIh1Bb7xrT3wYXkwzYxbDd oj6NXtMHBTyyJXwFyzYXlWC983m8ZdvxpCaIWPYk4PLitBX2aO0p2AvrtMesUxfUB75a p7Tg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=enNmaaKPINSoSsiwd7tL4k/lV7a/3K5uOVM6eMfP0S0=; b=jUbknEXQm02/6rM9fon4dKtfv+Ejlb3SIMnJcp4QjdLXGbtWjj9pLbEtLvCHav/4rg SIn+wtK0RI7TisI4KZRFuUs8SxEAQwW9+qBCXzl5iazovrhaE8uGRRzF4fGPxscdyC83 KqFfT2l9F2R7D29r39IySRExlPD7gOUmcsmQaleUhoDUIWdMHHyxzpT4QJ0TW4111qnh lsw2dZ0KcK2JbQOFXZ5dNUVmInc7pHhFjdvZpVZO+HqVNKH2pldAO3X8GuiBuZjyfK5g xzHC5R2pbiRjnQoVgUlXDhgAkinBrHAJ4ia9y2Zl9F0L62H8TOj/fI7wD4R0j46PRude ggag== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI2QygGBOR5A+ZWwbfGQB9TIh3vKyOKP+nDZ9Q+cPepZ95HFOjTGaAYHweYsO8NX6aYzyjnfxVOIJ9iyg== X-Received: by 10.36.83.199 with SMTP id n190mr22376238itb.61.1465857482100; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:38:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.84.194 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:38:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Stan Ratliff Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:38:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114047228317440535308a18 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2016 22:38:14 -0000 --001a114047228317440535308a18 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, The 1-week WGLC was predicated on the thought that we had basically concluded - that your issues had been addressed, and therefore, what was needed was a "once-over" check. Apparently, that's not the case. Having said that, the desire is not to set unreasonable timeframes, but to make progress, and produce a quality document. So, if the conversation and revisions take more than the 1-week period, so be it. Let's get it right. Regards, Stan On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Christopher Dearlove < christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > I=E2=80=99v looked at draft -09, and I think it still needs work. I have = some > followups from previous comments, some new comments, and some editorial > comments that I didn=E2=80=99t get round to making last time. And this ma= y not be > complete, but I=E2=80=99m up against the too short one week limit set. (I= =E2=80=99m afraid > we just aren=E2=80=99t getting given the necessary time in this group. An= d I seem > to be the only one commenting.) > > Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? Not= justified. And > should make it clear this applies to FEC applied across packets, not with= in > a packet. > > Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count > limited, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case. > > Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? > > Page 5, fourth bullet, add =E2=80=9Cwith=E2=80=9D after =E2=80=9Cexperime= nt=E2=80=9D. > > Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data > rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, n= ot > the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. > > RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style. > > Section 4, first paragraph, not requires, perhaps uses. > > The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The > requirements this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This poi= nt > was made about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80=99t = identical, > but need to be specified. > > MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11. > > CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one. > > Section 6.1.1, last word, messages. > > Section 7, capitalise Base. > > Section 7.1. No need for OLSR in element names, never used anywhere else. > Usual OLSRv2 style is SR_time without valid. Also SR_orig_addr (we are > careful about usage). > > Delete =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D in multiple element definitions after - > > PT_=E2=80=A6 Explain n. Note that n may not be same in all cases. > > PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as = well (e.g > Routing Set). > > Various places, delete =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before Section. > > Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged in > TC messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on > strongly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added. > > Section 8.2 Setting what should be SR_orig_addr, add address after > originator. > > A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry > times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting s= ets > change. If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the re= active > mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flo= w > then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and impleme= nt. > > You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases whil= e > waiting. > > The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this > protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP proces= s, why > mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? > > Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s no > signalling that includes it. > > Capitalise all instances of Tuple for consistency. > > Page 13. Brutally is not really appropriate language. > > Section 8.5.2, I haven=E2=80=99t had time to review this. > > Section 9, delete track after experimental. > > Section 9, related to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how the= final > bullet points arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D mean? > > Section 10, not reviewed. > > Appendices, not reviewed. > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --001a114047228317440535308a18 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,

The 1-week WGLC w= as predicated on the thought that we had basically concluded - that your is= sues had been addressed, and therefore, what was needed was a "once-ov= er" check. Apparently, that's not the case.

Having sa= id that, the desire is not to set unreasonable timeframes, but to make prog= ress, and produce a quality document. So, if the conversation and revisions= take more than the 1-week period, so be it. Let's get it right.
Regards,
Stan


On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 5:5= 3 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
I=E2=80=99v looked at= draft -09, and I think it still needs work. I have some followups from pre= vious comments, some new comments, and some editorial comments that I didn= =E2=80=99t get round to making last time. And this may not be complete, but= I=E2=80=99m up against the too short one week limit set. (I=E2=80=99m afra= id we just aren=E2=80=99t getting given the necessary time in this group. A= nd I seem to be the only one commenting.)

Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? Not j= ustified. And should make it clear this applies to FEC applied across packe= ts, not within a packet.

Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count limite= d, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case.

Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?

Page 5, fourth bullet, add =E2=80=9Cwith=E2=80=9D after =E2=80=9Cexperiment= =E2=80=9D.

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data r= ate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, not = the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style.

Section 4, first paragraph, not requires, perhaps uses.

The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The requireme= nts this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This point was made= about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80=99t identical,= but need to be specified.

MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11.

CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one.

Section 6.1.1, last word, messages.

Section 7, capitalise Base.

Section 7.1. No need for OLSR in element names, never used anywhere else. U= sual OLSRv2 style is SR_time without valid. Also SR_orig_addr (we are caref= ul about usage).

Delete =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D in multiple element definitions after -

PT_=E2=80=A6 Explain n. Note that n may not be same in all cases.

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as we= ll (e.g Routing Set).

Various places, delete =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before Section.

Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged in T= C messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on strong= ly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added.

Section 8.2 Setting what should be SR_orig_addr, add address after originat= or.

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times= . If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets cha= nge. If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactiv= e mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flo= w then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and impleme= nt.

You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while = waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this prot= ocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why= mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s no s= ignalling that includes it.

Capitalise all instances of Tuple for consistency.

Page 13. Brutally is not really appropriate language.

Section 8.5.2, I haven=E2=80=99t had time to review this.

Section 9, delete track after experimental.

Section 9, related to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how the f= inal bullet points arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D mean?

Section 10, not reviewed.

Appendices, not reviewed.

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

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(Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C5AC12D0EB for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 01:43:54 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,470,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="37054904" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2016 09:43:52 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,470,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="121951929" Received: from glkxh0003v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.34]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 14 Jun 2016 09:43:52 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.120]) by GLKXH0003V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 09:43:52 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Stan Ratliff , Christopher Dearlove Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4vIPs5E88YPkOnu3lAZD3QM5/n7DuAgAC5lDA= Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 08:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, 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DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D04B6GLKXM0002VGREEN_-- From nobody Tue Jun 14 10:22:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94EA712D0AE; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:22:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Spencer Dawkins" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.22.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160614172230.19274.62724.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 10:22:30 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 17:22:30 -0000 Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Just as a nit, the charter spells out FIB as "forwarding information base", but does not spell out or give references for several acronyms that are quite a bit less well known. If the text could either expand them or give references, that would help people who aren't skilled in the art ... From nobody Tue Jun 14 15:05:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0774D12D909 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:05:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IZ9Vjcsw7RNv for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x231.google.com (mail-lb0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c04::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FFCC12D9B1 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lb0-x231.google.com with SMTP id xp5so925294lbb.0 for ; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:04:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=TOUbad9Wmh5aF7E5PRRiZHr5WmzEdUTu6v70210SBh8=; b=eO3XWL165ZehYocqlNuSNHLjliDm95fFx4dAusV8W10Ej8xByDMfZsBf7nq7/pMlEX O2M5B3yz3+wiiUAwxI7tE73Lm/IUN+6TqDc0PI4NQ8zCDOv76dAAhIrwUSLH+Iy92um0 fKAz6aWYTFhKOz8MZfVl3nlENeqNzb+SISVwbP236tOOygHIP4X10MNLj4FY6XegyNaS h4UKyanXjYp+vGH/OcRWcv//zOh6ziThsoM2XPc8p7P7PoX8UdqRN1Ni9viob2TbGBFS MkF8Fdv8NrcVxa9cidEAUiNxYm/CSle3MCrWQdVeR6re5YtP2/BC4WP3RcGERFGbVP+u LoSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TOUbad9Wmh5aF7E5PRRiZHr5WmzEdUTu6v70210SBh8=; b=DCpBcYJUzTeVvWaKiDeyyKirQEvkBwauK8CFcFqOp+ghhCDhOPJEur39LYcmub0bvV U+8yF1JndDoknguHOqQe8VkeyZbO+7899GL3aBuWKHq79eE17qA+mfyX5xKSlcVHfNk6 9O5f7Dtu7+vtU9JCtZ3guM4OZXlR/JSVkjFV84/EKGRXg+6G34dmjbgdKKjtHTuWU2+e j+/5j4iuf5H+8Hk7V5RrngZCH8xDrQEMcBgJw6m1r1pLJu/veDCG2bugXJ9l4amaN0Le HE+ZtZysP9k1xiMIL25VKVJegHrwp4RSesUxKTs3fXRQMAsYvn5IHg/snAOVf3G+Rc5K rcfg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJSZf10LkvB9WvNH2ae2sp8u2I1ZRw19H8DIkyLRu5h3zmSVAsNNbzGtLWnVSBJgj5WlQ0HqTT/d+wZ2w== X-Received: by 10.25.210.20 with SMTP id j20mr618139lfg.139.1465941838531; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:03:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.231 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:03:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 00:03:57 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: 0MhxS0bSjan7hn9NwDa2PleUTac Message-ID: To: Stan Ratliff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114003c68c141a0535442e37 Archived-At: Cc: Christopher Dearlove , MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 22:05:35 -0000 --001a114003c68c141a0535442e37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Stan, Chris: firstly, thanks very much for the comments and reply. On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Stan Ratliff wrote: > Chris, > > The 1-week WGLC was predicated on the thought that we had basically > concluded - that your issues had been addressed, and therefore, what was > needed was a "once-over" check. > I kinda have the same impression because we didn't get much feedback several days after we replied Chris' post and released a -09alpha revision on the mailing list. But of course, we all have other work to do, so it's totally understandable. > Apparently, that's not the case. > > Having said that, the desire is not to set unreasonable timeframes, but t= o > make progress, and produce a quality document. So, if the conversation an= d > revisions take more than the 1-week period, so be it. Let's get it right. > sure We will make further updates based on the comments received, and provide a detailed reply. cheers Jiazi > > Regards, > Stan > > > > On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Christopher Dearlove < > christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I=E2=80=99v looked at draft -09, and I think it still needs work. I have= some >> followups from previous comments, some new comments, and some editorial >> comments that I didn=E2=80=99t get round to making last time. And this m= ay not be >> complete, but I=E2=80=99m up against the too short one week limit set. (= I=E2=80=99m afraid >> we just aren=E2=80=99t getting given the necessary time in this group. A= nd I seem >> to be the only one commenting.) >> >> Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? No= t justified. And >> should make it clear this applies to FEC applied across packets, not wit= hin >> a packet. >> >> Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count >> limited, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case. >> >> Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? >> >> Page 5, fourth bullet, add =E2=80=9Cwith=E2=80=9D after =E2=80=9Cexperim= ent=E2=80=9D. >> >> Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low dat= a >> rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, = not >> the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. >> >> RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style. >> >> Section 4, first paragraph, not requires, perhaps uses. >> >> The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The >> requirements this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This po= int >> was made about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80=99t= identical, >> but need to be specified. >> >> MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11. >> >> CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one. >> >> Section 6.1.1, last word, messages. >> >> Section 7, capitalise Base. >> >> Section 7.1. No need for OLSR in element names, never used anywhere else= . >> Usual OLSRv2 style is SR_time without valid. Also SR_orig_addr (we are >> careful about usage). >> >> Delete =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D in multiple element definitions after - >> >> PT_=E2=80=A6 Explain n. Note that n may not be same in all cases. >> >> PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as= well >> (e.g Routing Set). >> >> Various places, delete =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before Section. >> >> Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged i= n >> TC messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on >> strongly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added. >> >> Section 8.2 Setting what should be SR_orig_addr, add address after >> originator. >> >> A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry >> times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting = sets >> change. If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the r= eactive >> mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet fl= ow >> then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and implem= ent. >> >> You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases >> while waiting. >> >> The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this >> protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP proce= ss, why >> mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? >> >> Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s n= o >> signalling that includes it. >> >> Capitalise all instances of Tuple for consistency. >> >> Page 13. Brutally is not really appropriate language. >> >> Section 8.5.2, I haven=E2=80=99t had time to review this. >> >> Section 9, delete track after experimental. >> >> Section 9, related to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how th= e final >> bullet points arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D mean? >> >> Section 10, not reviewed. >> >> Appendices, not reviewed. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> manet mailing list >> manet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >> > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > --001a114003c68c141a0535442e37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Stan, Chris:

firstly, thanks very mu= ch for the comments and reply.=C2=A0
<= br>

On Tue, = Jun 14, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Stan Ratliff <ratliffstan@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:
Chri= s,

The 1-week WGLC was predicated on the thought that we had = basically concluded - that your issues had been addressed, and therefore, w= hat was needed was a "once-over" check.
<= /blockquote>

I kinda have the same impression because we= didn't get much feedback several days after we replied Chris' post= and released a -09alpha revision on the mailing list.=C2=A0
But = of course, we all have other work to do, so it's totally understandable= .=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<= div>Apparently, that's not the case.

Having said that, the= desire is not to set unreasonable timeframes, but to make progress, and pr= oduce a quality document. So, if the conversation and revisions take more t= han the 1-week period, so be it. Let's get it right.

sure

We will = make further updates based on the comments received, and provide a detailed= reply.=C2=A0

cheers

Jiaz= i
=C2=A0

Regards,
Stan



On Mon, Jun= 13, 2016 at 5:53 PM, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearl= ove@gmail.com> wrote:
I=E2=80=99v looked = at draft -09, and I think it still needs work. I have some followups from p= revious comments, some new comments, and some editorial comments that I did= n=E2=80=99t get round to making last time. And this may not be complete, bu= t I=E2=80=99m up against the too short one week limit set. (I=E2=80=99m afr= aid we just aren=E2=80=99t getting given the necessary time in this group. = And I seem to be the only one commenting.)

Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? Not j= ustified. And should make it clear this applies to FEC applied across packe= ts, not within a packet.

Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count limite= d, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case.

Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?

Page 5, fourth bullet, add =E2=80=9Cwith=E2=80=9D after =E2=80=9Cexperiment= =E2=80=9D.

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data r= ate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, not = the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style.

Section 4, first paragraph, not requires, perhaps uses.

The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The requireme= nts this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This point was made= about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80=99t identical,= but need to be specified.

MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11.

CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one.

Section 6.1.1, last word, messages.

Section 7, capitalise Base.

Section 7.1. No need for OLSR in element names, never used anywhere else. U= sual OLSRv2 style is SR_time without valid. Also SR_orig_addr (we are caref= ul about usage).

Delete =E2=80=9Cit=E2=80=9D in multiple element definitions after -

PT_=E2=80=A6 Explain n. Note that n may not be same in all cases.

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as we= ll (e.g Routing Set).

Various places, delete =E2=80=9Cthe=E2=80=9D before Section.

Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged in T= C messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on strong= ly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added.

Section 8.2 Setting what should be SR_orig_addr, add address after originat= or.

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times= . If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets cha= nge. If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactiv= e mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flo= w then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and impleme= nt.

You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while = waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this prot= ocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why= mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s no s= ignalling that includes it.

Capitalise all instances of Tuple for consistency.

Page 13. Brutally is not really appropriate language.

Section 8.5.2, I haven=E2=80=99t had time to review this.

Section 9, delete track after experimental.

Section 9, related to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how the f= inal bullet points arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D mean?

Section 10, not reviewed.

Appendices, not reviewed.

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


--001a114003c68c141a0535442e37-- From nobody Wed Jun 15 06:10:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4414412D68D; Wed, 15 Jun 2016 06:10:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Benoit Claise" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.22.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160615131043.20256.69357.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 06:10:43 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-03: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:10:43 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-03: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- As for other charters, the expected status of the work items is a plus (experimental, informational, proposed standard) ex: to the IESG for publication as Proposed Standard RFC From nobody Thu Jun 16 05:47:26 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E3712D5A4; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 05:47:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Stephen Farrell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.22.2 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 05:47:21 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 12:47:21 -0000 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-05: Block When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- BLOCK: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Apologies if I'm getting the wrong thing here, but what is DLEP? I seem to recall there being something similarly named that had potentially significant security affects, so if this is the same thing, then maybe the charter needs to say some more about that and what the WG need to do about it. (Again, sorry if I'm getting the wrong end of the wrong stick here but we can chat about it on the call;-) From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:07:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B8CE12D5BC; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:07:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QXnN68TSzNte; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9F1512D576; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:01:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1366; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466082067; x=1467291667; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=l1jJdQLnvK53/L8pwdcHIOIyoJ2L+20E/RYD2RAOcTk=; b=by5eBtsQfjmk2rd/aWn7IJnJn9whpKT6VcPoYsrA/Gj/eZYUqLMPbKqP y6s0Yn4CgBRjREbev7mGETo74Ss8g/gvqSgXpWzNrViwr1ml1/2mcemWt RCXP2OrC8TI9WFNwkJGs6ojnKF4H8T/PVtDbDZpLMBDBNq2zbF+kj33m8 E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D+AQBoomJX/4gNJK1egz5WfQa4RoIPg?= =?us-ascii?q?XoihXUCgSY4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RMAQEEOj8QAgEINhAyJQIEAQ0FiDAOv2wBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXBYYnhE2KGwEEiBGLNoUqAYYEiCSPIo90AR42g?= =?us-ascii?q?3BuiQV/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,480,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="113617310" Received: from alln-core-3.cisco.com ([173.36.13.136]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Jun 2016 13:01:06 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (xch-rcd-001.cisco.com [173.37.102.11]) by alln-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5GD16tu022903 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:01:06 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:01:06 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:01:06 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG Thread-Topic: Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRx808dRYa405TGUKSCC5Bq/PV8J/sDqmA Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:01:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.232.140] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:07:29 -0000 On 6/16/16, 7:47 AM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell" wrote: Stephen: Hi! >-------------------------------------------------------------- >BLOCK: >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Apologies if I'm getting the wrong thing here, but what is DLEP? >I seem to recall there being something similarly named that had >potentially significant security affects, so if this is the same thing, >then maybe the charter needs to say some more about that and >what the WG need to do about it. (Again, sorry if I'm getting the >wrong end of the wrong stick here but we can chat about it on >the call;-) https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ I think you're thinking of the right document. It is currently in my publication queue, the authors are addressing my comments (some in fact security related) -- hopefully we'll have it in a Telechat in a couple of cycles. We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG is done with the base specification. I don't have a problem if you think we should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we can put more details in at this point. Thoughts? Thanks! Alvaro. From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:31:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA1C512D5F9; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:31:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.727 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.727 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LIK7rOoax4sj; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A1D5112D60A; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35280BE2D; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:31:32 +0100 (IST) Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aqIrYPqCmHqZ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:31:32 +0100 (IST) Received: from [134.226.62.192] (cswireless62-192.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.62.192]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9720BBDD0; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:31:31 +0100 (IST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1466083892; bh=wxfzlCTmMXFiB6Wn460pim0/TMMHfG8sALEGusUau9k=; h=Subject:To:References:Cc:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=s6Zj35PjceT2rQVC3zKmhDAT7t+VIDxTVQnUHDLNmZNCAOMDQRWxzsI/2T6hwmRtq WBaWsOt7itSxGy+N79Pnmb0MrRzlCsuvcLAOFJ5CkE36SXlrWmkTPmtIFLapNyIKMk m3Yn1WVxOgle8K8I9uCB3UutwRL1KYo6exIgLO3U= To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , The IESG References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=D66EA7906F0B897FB2E97D582F3C8736805F8DA2; url= Message-ID: <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:31:30 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms080100030600020808000002" Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:31:37 -0000 This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms080100030600020808000002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 16/06/16 14:01, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/16/16, 7:47 AM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > wrote: >=20 > Stephen: >=20 > Hi! >=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------- >> BLOCK: >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= >> >> Apologies if I'm getting the wrong thing here, but what is DLEP? >> I seem to recall there being something similarly named that had >> potentially significant security affects, so if this is the same thing= , >> then maybe the charter needs to say some more about that and >> what the WG need to do about it. (Again, sorry if I'm getting the >> wrong end of the wrong stick here but we can chat about it on >> the call;-) >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ >=20 > I think you're thinking of the right document.=20 Ah good:-) > It is currently in my > publication queue, the authors are addressing my comments (some in fact= > security related) -- hopefully we'll have it in a Telechat in a couple = of > cycles. >=20 > We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its > maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG = is > done with the base specification. I don't have a problem if you think = we > should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we ca= n > put more details in at this point. Was DLEP ever mentioned before in the MANET WG charter? I guess I'm wondering if it's really MANET specific and whether, if it was more broadly used, it'd also have potential privacy issues. S. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Alvaro. >=20 --------------ms080100030600020808000002 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCC CvIwggUIMIID8KADAgECAhBPzaE7pzYviUJyhmHTFBdnMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMHUxCzAJ BgNVBAYTAklMMRYwFAYDVQQKEw1TdGFydENvbSBMdGQuMSkwJwYDVQQLEyBTdGFydENvbSBD ZXJ0aWZpY2F0aW9uIEF1dGhvcml0eTEjMCEGA1UEAxMaU3RhcnRDb20gQ2xhc3MgMSBDbGll bnQgQ0EwHhcNMTYwMjA5MDkyODE1WhcNMTcwMjA5MDkyODE1WjBOMSIwIAYDVQQDDBlzdGVw aGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllMSgwJgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFhlzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxA Y3MudGNkLmllMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAtuC0rYze/2JinSra C9F2RjGdQZjNALLcW9C3WKTwYII3wBslobmHuPEYE5JaGItmzuKnAW619R1rD/kfoNWC19N3 rBZ6UX9Cmb9D9exCwYIwVuSwjrCQWGxgCtNQTrwKzCCpI790GRiMTvxvO7UmzmBrCaBLiZW5 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/4S39PZ91A2es2HVyKU0PHguo33M7LtNa25Z2aBnmAg+s899xgWhwrkbxP6s2/ScJOwZ f8BUdSoz6j3ZPBkAX8tYKYLBJXmVCQD5ZGYvigyzCBhSTg1dH1SzH8fm0SkjL6tKsZxU Y3PYEt5AmICyJi+hkfIATGr7xW1mweurmaHypp/4lKcPP6FIs482U63zvWXZCmUjAzPc ij2sTX3EnAPvb2vBj6JP9Kfi6qbOWfF8mqNK3LEvEEsAGztxEdsA3KPqJ8u1Dyb9mAlk 6uGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKHP7lyY0lYk4peIVaE7kgrKMXQ/x47rxzS+g4WYvrjzFOJXtjPmZXRCl6zjk50Z+jChndq16Qg1pnk0g== X-Received: by 10.176.66.1 with SMTP id i1mr1724084uai.116.1466084178810; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:36:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Dean Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:36:09 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , Stephen Farrell , The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114be688b05d9f0535655245 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:36:22 -0000 --001a114be688b05d9f0535655245 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 We do have a DLEP extension listed as a deliverable. There is quite a bit of interest and effort regarding extending it from various person/organizations. It's a safe bet that some drafts WILL be produced. Some history regarding DLEP (dynamic link exchange protocol). It was not mentioned previously in the WG charter. The draft had cleared WG last call over a year ago but after an extensive directorate review was sent back and reworked to address those conserns. Security related issues have be raised both in last call, and most recently in Alvaro's comments. I do believe the remaining issues will be resolved as the working group has multiple options ready to go, as it has been discussed at length and rough. Justin On Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 9:07 AM Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/16/16, 7:47 AM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell" > wrote: > > Stephen: > > Hi! > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- > >BLOCK: > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Apologies if I'm getting the wrong thing here, but what is DLEP? > >I seem to recall there being something similarly named that had > >potentially significant security affects, so if this is the same thing, > >then maybe the charter needs to say some more about that and > >what the WG need to do about it. (Again, sorry if I'm getting the > >wrong end of the wrong stick here but we can chat about it on > >the call;-) > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-dlep/ > > I think you're thinking of the right document. It is currently in my > publication queue, the authors are addressing my comments (some in fact > security related) -- hopefully we'll have it in a Telechat in a couple of > cycles. > > We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its > maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG is > done with the base specification. I don't have a problem if you think we > should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we can > put more details in at this point. > > Thoughts? > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > --001a114be688b05d9f0535655245 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

We do have a DLEP extension listed as a deliverable. There i= s quite a bit of interest and effort regarding extending it from various pe= rson/organizations. It's a safe bet that some drafts WILL be produced.<= /p>

Some history regarding DLEP (dynamic link exchange protocol)= . It was not mentioned previously in the WG charter. The draft had cleared = WG last call over a year ago but after an extensive directorate review was = sent back and reworked to address those conserns. Security related issues h= ave be raised both in last call, and most recently in Alvaro's comments= . I do believe the remaining issues will be resolved as the working group h= as multiple options ready to go, as it has been discussed at length and rou= gh.

Justin


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 9:07 = AM Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana= @cisco.com> wrote:
On 6/16/= 16, 7:47 AM, "iesg on behalf of Stephen Farrell"
<iesg-bounces= @ietf.org on behalf of stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Stephen:

Hi!

>--------------------------------------------------------------
>BLOCK:
>----------------------------------------------------------------------<= br> >
>Apologies if I'm getting the wrong thing here, but what is DLEP? >I seem to recall there being something similarly named that had
>potentially significant security affects, so if this is the same thing,=
>then maybe the charter needs to say some more about that and
>what the WG need to do about it. (Again, sorry if I'm getting the >wrong end of the wrong stick here but we can chat about it on
>the call;-)

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-m= anet-dlep/

I think you're thinking of the right document.=C2=A0 It is currently in= my
publication queue, the authors are addressing my comments (some in fact
security related) -- hopefully we'll have it in a Telechat in a couple = of
cycles.

We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its
maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG is done with the base specification.=C2=A0 I don't have a problem if you t= hink we
should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we ca= n
put more details in at this point.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a114be688b05d9f0535655245-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 06:52:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5013B12D620; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:52:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2_PhHdtilNqK; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0252612D60D; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 06:51:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1340; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466085118; x=1467294718; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=8ozc39CYjtmIC860hMus89o2Jm7ynkKSiJng9StSqw4=; b=kJ2F7z9QJ3Vp9H3UduwB7tervyCEwTXaGUMhYXZovpjp/EKRc1jdY5c5 Eo8SWxqOIS5v4q+htvGSVhahk1IJuJxAAVAS7nWanaNdSbOdIeXVL6o9G Xv4zAPZSi4cTFyvZWNi1S2KmjejnTldk2TNA5vYzDijopVNq5YFUmQbHF 8=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D9AQClrmJX/4QNJK1egz6BUwa4RoIPg?= =?us-ascii?q?XqGFwKBJzgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhEwBAQQ6PxACAQg2EDIlAgQBDQWIMMAKAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBHIYnhE2KGwEEk0eFKgGOKI8ij3QBHjaDcG6JBX8BA?= =?us-ascii?q?QE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,480,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="115758830" Received: from alln-core-10.cisco.com ([173.36.13.132]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Jun 2016 13:51:58 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (xch-aln-002.cisco.com [173.36.7.12]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5GDpwCx022380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:51:58 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:51:57 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 08:51:57 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG Thread-Topic: Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRx808dRYa405TGUKSCC5Bq/PV8J/sDqmAgABcVgD//7HggA== Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:51:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.232.140] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 13:52:00 -0000 On 6/16/16, 8:31 AM, "Stephen Farrell" wrote: Hi! >>We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its >>maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG is >>done with the base specification. I don't have a problem if you think we >>should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we can >>put more details in at this point. > >Was DLEP ever mentioned before in the MANET WG charter? No, but AFAIK manet-type applications where the radio and the router are not in the same box are the only ones requiring the functionality, which is why the WG took on the work (several years ago) -- and had done other related work before. >I guess I'm >wondering if it's really MANET specific and whether, if it was more >broadly used, it'd also have potential privacy issues. Note that while MANET means "mobile..", mobility is of course relative and anyone can successfully argue that any network "moves"... So, yes, it could be used in other scenarios. One of my review comments was precisely about that: if DLEP is used outside the expected deployment scenario, what changes? Back to the charter... Should we explicitly list DLEP (not just extensions, as Justin pointed out) as one of the deliverables? Thanks! Alvaro. From nobody Thu Jun 16 07:02:12 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8F3312D66A; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7xv_w6PK8a4O; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x233.google.com (mail-vk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A53312D664; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id u64so74355696vkf.3; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:02:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=woGcbeMUwq4XtWetH3wm7OPDtWaC7Llc5rfYk2pGFvY=; b=Ff+OwPv0jO1Ur61goayvWk399T2CZwea/1zpQ1YKNaA3uxDB0F+YNgjVOaf0FyH0wr lU0l2c2xY2tMct9q21AZlnGpujkiaBva0OdbDU2Gfmo+X/j/+2dPkzYTRTeTxeWJiisS vYdnJ5UIhVD4qrbgSB+AQucwNvB1ZZQUTEa5m9nyJm1uTaoJgauF14rCaYk4e2i3eLei hm7MqZTek0bogEKQmWkZga8+BgaeujjpBYLXXrRHqqCAzy5ywXQ4GJT6W3bN1GljMMiu gD0HwKXuTAR+HnNzoJbQww3O0CRY3keUj0XKpIqWPOJmnkkvItDPPZzr6AV9S6LANbIJ l1ZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=woGcbeMUwq4XtWetH3wm7OPDtWaC7Llc5rfYk2pGFvY=; b=EzKNxDO6oqQ2zh87px9VRB4slqbBOrv2CMI6G3mQUEpZet39HiBpUG1LB1RtHGB2sT 6VINp4mc/qgSTFRYWGkQWEsD0BKpkxSXCK68gkZrCEEx1j+lRyNadalJ3lweBDcR4CZG YgHJ2zGr8GqkTQmTWZnWMPoozYM0o3qbn/lfBJTFzBVAJ9qr83vFhN5BIERFLaGP3tOG DJ4lMjrB3J3xqLqjRKOMKu3+h6s8DDJW2mqHLQ7//PDf95srhcmA15MwDmcK2EMI6uhz qn9qcLwd8nXwS97EnpUqhAB8o6tfWLk8yAWkWKs9ydqsRCTE35M0wUyBgIB3juXyN099 zfHA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI9jhawxsFoTjKcHs6M/j2ncPq5cuoqM4c1Y9QX86BY43EzVLuzq6Q8ioduZqEYnmfhTsNHjXtVO4QZ0w== X-Received: by 10.31.206.4 with SMTP id e4mr98123vkg.130.1466085727384; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:02:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Dean Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:01:57 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , Stephen Farrell , The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e4e06fdb754053565ae38 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:02:10 -0000 --001a114e4e06fdb754053565ae38 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 If that is the only option to move it forward than I'm okay removing it. I do like having a deadline for producing something though. Stan and others likely has a strong opinion than myself. As long as we are charted to do the work I'm okay. Justin On Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 9:52 AM Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/16/16, 8:31 AM, "Stephen Farrell" wrote: > > Hi! > > >>We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its > >>maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG is > >>done with the base specification. I don't have a problem if you think we > >>should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we can > >>put more details in at this point. > > > >Was DLEP ever mentioned before in the MANET WG charter? > > No, but AFAIK manet-type applications where the radio and the router are > not in the same box are the only ones requiring the functionality, which > is why the WG took on the work (several years ago) -- and had done other > related work before. > > > >I guess I'm > >wondering if it's really MANET specific and whether, if it was more > >broadly used, it'd also have potential privacy issues. > > Note that while MANET means "mobile..", mobility is of course relative and > anyone can successfully argue that any network "moves"... So, yes, it > could be used in other scenarios. One of my review comments was precisely > about that: if DLEP is used outside the expected deployment scenario, what > changes? > > > > Back to the charter... Should we explicitly list DLEP (not just > extensions, as Justin pointed out) as one of the deliverables? > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > --001a114e4e06fdb754053565ae38 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If that is the only option to move it forward than I'm o= kay removing it. I do like having a deadline for producing something though= . Stan and others likely has a strong opinion than myself. As long as we ar= e charted to do the work I'm okay.

Justin


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 9:52 = AM Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana= @cisco.com> wrote:
On 6/16/= 16, 8:31 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:
Hi!

>>We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its<= br> >>maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the= WG is
>>done with the base specification.=C2=A0 I don't have a problem = if you think we
>>should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't thi= nk we can
>>put more details in at this point.
>
>Was DLEP ever mentioned before in the MANET WG charter?

No, but AFAIK manet-type applications where the radio and the router are not in the same box are the only ones requiring the functionality, which is why the WG took on the work (several years ago) -- and had done other related work before.


>I guess I'm
>wondering if it's really MANET specific and whether, if it was more=
>broadly used, it'd also have potential privacy issues.

Note that while MANET means "mobile..", mobility is of course rel= ative and
anyone can successfully argue that any network "moves"...=C2=A0 S= o, yes, it
could be used in other scenarios.=C2=A0 One of my review comments was preci= sely
about that: if DLEP is used outside the expected deployment scenario, what<= br> changes?



Back to the charter...=C2=A0 Should we explicitly list DLEP (not just
extensions, as Justin pointed out) as one of the deliverables?

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a114e4e06fdb754053565ae38-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 07:16:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7154112D739; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6_CDAWFANfEv; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com [173.37.86.80]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4AB3212D6AE; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:16:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2629; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466086573; x=1467296173; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=SCEKBnYGRR12djOXugGXB1cLh8opHLGomnWAnGL88qs=; b=YC6e062q79x/CQJv8nl0V218U8PlOCiE6QGNhqsagPs4A8eHj+DNwJsP ksJC5NJUYjPMmn3qOfK8xR+2qbPp96HDc3yjEy6YGQ2IvuTrC303im2dX KJmwDVleJoRgBTEFN8e90mKoQKma7b//Fypi79aQev4VglFbsyi+KMhxC c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CAAgD3s2JX/5FdJa1egnBOgVMGrlOHA?= =?us-ascii?q?YJygg+BeoYXAoEoOBQBAQEBAQEBZSeETAEBBHkQAgEIBAoxByERFBECBAENBYg?= =?us-ascii?q?WAxe8JA2DZAEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARyGJ4RNgkOHWAWOLIUbhHY0A?= =?us-ascii?q?YwugXqPIogIh2wBHjaDcG6JBX8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,480,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="113645854" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by rcdn-iport-9.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Jun 2016 14:16:12 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (xch-aln-003.cisco.com [173.36.7.13]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5GEGC77003972 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:16:12 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:16:11 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:16:11 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Justin Dean , Stephen Farrell , The IESG Thread-Topic: Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRx808dRYa405TGUKSCC5Bq/PV8J/sDqmAgABcVgD//7HggIAAVqKA//+wHoA= Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:16:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.232.140] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3881E8512E885aretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:16:14 -0000 --_000_D3881E8512E885aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/16/16, 9:01 AM, "Justin Dean" > wrote: Justin: Hi! If that is the only option to move it forward than I'm okay removing it. I = do like having a deadline for producing something though. Stan and others l= ikely has a strong opinion than myself. As long as we are charted to do the= work I'm okay My proposal to Stephen is not to take anything off, but to explicitly add D= LEP (the base document) as a deliverable. I'm on the IESG Telechat with Stephen right now...we should talk about it i= n a few minutes. Alvaro. --_000_D3881E8512E885aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <0D559BF777B0164880A4273DC1609CF6@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6/16/16, 9:01 AM, "Justin Dean" <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:

Justin:

Hi!

If that is the only option to move it forward than I'm okay removing it. I = do like having a deadline for producing something though. Stan and others l= ikely has a strong opinion than myself. As long as we are charted to do the= work I'm okay
My proposal to Stephen is not to take anything off, but to explicitly = add DLEP (the base document) as a deliverable.

I'm on the IESG Telechat with Stephen right now…we should talk a= bout it in a few minutes.

Alvaro.
--_000_D3881E8512E885aretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 07:29:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F09112D587; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p0Hq2jpo14Uk; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F070F12D18C; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id t129so75681393vka.1; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:29:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=w300cINpYZPacc1yHVTbMjQHhcLPXkZjpT8wEYYxcZU=; b=E7+leBsaB3d0by733/cVx7m4XsOYLzcTVewyweb/Q/zZtA1wVXQJta7IZAqOPGsUNl e3eqzlztlGKXEDIOsYfb5wK5Y5X7zcfEqb83hWoJglrEGo/bf21Zi7rY9txnK366rJV5 lN/C22ho9FE2GdNku7YdpTaKMiEtSphYT5hWGNgW9m9JJ3HCsF5WtAh22XM5VKbfuHT5 Ub0E1/ftT2UITXOWpj117gh37B4Kw+kE8dqXe4nbJ+8MoUzzyLhClDg3xL2EaMjilHdo 4sHS4EPvwmeMq/gWtutWIufHsC/L3zCrnz7DlEsAwaFxLhRXg8R1va/kIn9rDuVlHqOr t3GQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=w300cINpYZPacc1yHVTbMjQHhcLPXkZjpT8wEYYxcZU=; b=LrjiQDAAX4BCW1SvAiH8VOSGHRptYL7GDNHtUyLTi4iEtliQq1bvZXB+IzZ+rjRYP1 7+cG5ZY7MiZD3Mhcf+WU2rXHzYjJoTSwNi4Wazu4lFVFRzl0PP1alM/FMrLaAR9Mh79q OPJC5cCVCkH4Xu9sPrRVP/J5kY/5NhYrGQ4wHtQXZr+JUgINLxgffxs5z4ran72VOElV FKw4mG4lC2iFHZ9cpJZs7r1hCNgZWUZy8ddmzmrJZ3B+vq3t2O9NEFiC/GAWuYbquHVR Zuurt5AmTGYs3as4uGPZ3kaJIiD0JdZ0WxrSAc1RfTIoS0olRu8pzRW+6k7W/CZP2+kk Z/Ng== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tKVqdrwGMohJV4sc2HtpxqSHv+MJ0VTQKM8maX4DNFezQenxW21S2Y0qSoz/pWlYOuAswflH5BR+IEWNg== X-Received: by 10.176.2.242 with SMTP id 105mr2180066uah.151.1466087378089; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:29:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: From: Justin Dean Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:29:28 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , Stephen Farrell , The IESG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142e550617d0b05356611bc Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:29:40 -0000 --001a1142e550617d0b05356611bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sounds good to me. On Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:16 AM Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/16/16, 9:01 AM, "Justin Dean" wrote: > > Justin: > > Hi! > > If that is the only option to move it forward than I'm okay removing it. = I > do like having a deadline for producing something though. Stan and others > likely has a strong opinion than myself. As long as we are charted to do > the work I'm okay > > My proposal to Stephen is not to take anything off, but to explicitly add > DLEP (the base document) as a deliverable. > > I'm on the IESG Telechat with Stephen right now=E2=80=A6we should talk ab= out it in > a few minutes. > > Alvaro. > --001a1142e550617d0b05356611bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sounds good to me.


On Thu, Jun 16, 2016, 10:16= AM Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretan= a@cisco.com> wrote:
On 6/16/16, 9:01 AM, "Justin Dean" <bebemaster@gmail.com> wrote:

Justin:

Hi!

If that is the only option to move it forward than I'm okay removing it= . I do like having a deadline for producing something though. Stan and othe= rs likely has a strong opinion than myself. As long as we are charted to do= the work I'm okay
My proposal to Stephen is not to take an= ything off, but to explicitly add DLEP (the base document) as a deliverable= .

I'm on the IESG Telechat with Stephen right now=E2=80=A6we should = talk about it in a few minutes.

Alvaro.
--001a1142e550617d0b05356611bc-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 07:56:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3203512D819; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O8HAFrSongAT; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AF5112D80B; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb-2.local ([IPv6:2601:b00:c500:8b41:6526:c1d9:4ec9:1e0]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id u5GEtZwi034920 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:55:36 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [IPv6:2601:b00:c500:8b41:6526:c1d9:4ec9:1e0] claimed to be mb-2.local To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: joel jaeggli Message-ID: <1965a7fc-2853-ded2-e7b8-45d0b5bec281@bogus.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:55:33 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="maw83th7eCol8m3VQV4daldTKJjthpN1u" Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 14:55:52 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --maw83th7eCol8m3VQV4daldTKJjthpN1u Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="N8HjvBEDE1CDfeDuT6oA6pviCesxGvLN9" From: joel jaeggli To: Stephen Farrell , The IESG Cc: aretana@cisco.com, manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Message-ID: <1965a7fc-2853-ded2-e7b8-45d0b5bec281@bogus.com> Subject: Re: Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> --N8HjvBEDE1CDfeDuT6oA6pviCesxGvLN9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/16/16 5:47 AM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-manet-03-05: Block >=20 > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this= > introductory paragraph, however.) >=20 >=20 >=20 > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ >=20 >=20 >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > BLOCK: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 > Apologies if I'm getting the wrong thing here, but what is DLEP? > I seem to recall there being something similarly named that had > potentially significant security affects, so if this is the same thing,= =20 > then maybe the charter needs to say some more about that and=20 > what the WG need to do about it. (Again, sorry if I'm getting the=20 > wrong end of the wrong stick here but we can chat about it on=20 > the call;-) imho dlep is about extending adjecency detection to adjacent radios attached to a router, rather than requiring that it (the routing function) be embedded in the radio itself. it may extend to the other end of the radio link. enumerating prefixes that are offlink (by which we mean not bounded by the common broadcast domain) is really the domain of a routing protocol running over the link e.g. olsrv2 ospf etc. >=20 >=20 >=20 --N8HjvBEDE1CDfeDuT6oA6pviCesxGvLN9-- --maw83th7eCol8m3VQV4daldTKJjthpN1u Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAldiveYACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrKFZgCfXRhK0rG7wJ7noLMcnonupA7m PPQAn0VWVNcHWSk6tD0uggXSMBlZu5mC =Iwq1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --maw83th7eCol8m3VQV4daldTKJjthpN1u-- From nobody Thu Jun 16 15:30:10 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37A412DCF5 for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:30:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NgmKvr1D8RJn for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from korolev.univ-paris7.fr (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [IPv6:2001:660:3301:8000::1:2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 760E312DC2B for ; Thu, 16 Jun 2016 15:30:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [81.194.30.253]) by korolev.univ-paris7.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4/relay1/56228) with ESMTP id u5GMTwDZ031829; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:29:58 +0200 Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F9761FA1; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:29:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at math.univ-paris-diderot.fr Received: from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr ([127.0.0.1]) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10023) with ESMTP id sLCTsagDmt8j; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:29:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from trurl.pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr (col75-1-78-194-40-74.fbxo.proxad.net [78.194.40.74]) (Authenticated sender: jch) by mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C288661FA2; Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:29:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:29:55 +0200 Message-ID: <87y464ahss.wl-jch@pps.univ-paris-diderot.fr> From: Juliusz Chroboczek To: Stan Ratliff In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.15.9 MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI-EPG 1.14.7 - "Harue") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (korolev.univ-paris7.fr [194.254.61.138]); Fri, 17 Jun 2016 00:29:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Miltered: at korolev with ID 57632866.000 by Joe's j-chkmail (http : // j-chkmail dot ensmp dot fr)! X-j-chkmail-Enveloppe: 57632866.000 from mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/null/mailhub.math.univ-paris-diderot.fr/ X-j-chkmail-Score: MSGID : 57632866.000 on korolev.univ-paris7.fr : j-chkmail score : . : R=. U=. O=. B=0.000 -> S=0.000 X-j-chkmail-Status: Ham Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" Subject: Re: [manet] Updated after meeting Draft Recharter X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2016 22:30:09 -0000 >> You could take coalition force communication as an example. You could also formulate the example in more neutral terms. > The usual answer given in cases like this is to exploit route redistribution - > each protocol takes the other's routes as external. In mobile scenarios, > there's a whole host of problems associated with that. > > It quickly gets to a "boiling the ocean" scenario, so I wonder if > there's an approach to bound at least part of the problem in order to > focus on it and get a resolution. What implementation experience do we have? (FWIW, I know that the Italian community meshes are using multiple routing protocols and doing redistribution at a large scale, but I'm not sure what their policies are.) -- Juliusz From nobody Sun Jun 19 08:52:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D93F312D568; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d0mgw-nxe7hE; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x235.google.com (mail-qk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B5AD12D56E; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id t127so13804714qkf.1; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:52:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dzwVwnSq+UYjmIl1syWumHmeZRBYVZrmTcEoCPr/qWQ=; b=CiyO1/zxk3dFqmEYSg6kaLnFbJprcKhGBy2VSzye/qPHpO9E3xKDOoGIdssY5jttJt 1lP3G+0AfE9x1pm902XFbbgF+r40GJmUsK1PTfS9KcvViAq1udCWZrSOsmLAPX0AIFu/ cS/gfsAtaLIpNo6KUiAx5YqSWMJiQH9aJlkb+IKsq2505TGJYCezIPd5DPEgxXkDvrgl RY/nVq9gJZNF+tQVBHm3AfMz+Z2u+i0IyuI3PPafIkW0VzerZfV8d/imVyFrzrq/N7in C8ss7MMoedpRc0ZFD78y+PMQnYC1O2KIyRjGcRCF5VHy9gHvX6KxLOKAHVCmC/1uF4bL b/pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dzwVwnSq+UYjmIl1syWumHmeZRBYVZrmTcEoCPr/qWQ=; b=cCl68PTlHNWD3tOZO0UTf17L0I58KBO7RFXOOQY7ElC0Z6yXcMRUNljRuEG6DsSazX 8oBPkkHZC3iospRUAwEMtGzHfbnwnJ6bx15F/1gLBev6D2PJP+JRjqo8qp7dphCtl2S8 roSJqgYmh6ksEyDpiZVv2A7+iFw0YWHMmVz6IVJ2xqiCAV0lP6A6NoI/UxFroOE9bYqF UX3wm8P57nr9J9+DwMfCwtYS3ZaUtUUF3CV2AmBEnO0SHNpkCSmBuGEyg1haQmNkiXe5 n0+jtYZX+crsNgLxXS48YBlhYxt6cguOmAWCZ6OvVevkuZa7+1zA34E2qiZ3nTmPSj/s w5HA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tJ+vmo+co5UL/nT2pBsDI767vhzCEsWcac5++hUbIkqgwZwRpNab5JmtSK3pHqhc2na6rxtk9+HomvV0w== X-Received: by 10.55.212.133 with SMTP id s5mr14923626qks.85.1466351535326; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:52:15 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.84.37 with HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2016 08:52:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 17:52:14 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1149a60a61098c0535a39227 Archived-At: Cc: "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , The IESG , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2016 15:52:19 -0000 --001a1149a60a61098c0535a39227 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Alvaro, I get distracted by many work items Last-calls/large-volume when they submited without priority and specially when we work in MANET WG. Is their priority in approving items/efforts. Management needs priority and clear work path, specially when group of remote participants are working. I would recommend to your management that they focus the recharter to list item works per schedule/periority. IMHO, in MANET one important job of AODVv2 was not completed because of past other works that were not listed in charter and no priorities in WG efforts. I think that All ADs look into priorities of jobs in each WG and work in line with Chairs, but it is not clear if we don't write it down in your approval. I am sorry that IESG approval has no priorities or words of instructions per recharter, but please advise if I am wrong, I just see approvals without conditions and guidance. I think that there are many work in MANET WG that can be accepted because the group works are about mobile protocols, that is a problem. Mobile and dynamic does not mean having dynamic in management of our projects. I did mention before about not to take many work in MANET WG but the ADs/Chairs did not follow my discussion on the discuss-list. I think in future work that ADs and chair need to follow up seriously with items in each meeting. I think this WG needs to get approval from IESG of some focused and important MANET drafts, one is maintenance of OLSRv2 and other MANET protocol. I proposed before that this WG needs a clear use case which is focused in a draft, while the old draft of our manet-use case should be updated as recharter. Only then we can see the priorities per items. I remember when the DLEP item was accepted I was wondering why me as remote participant was not asked to accept or note. I propose that DLEP should not continue in MANET only if the WG completes the multicast routing issues (so it should have less priority). Please IESG look into priority and schedules of work items per WGs. Please draw per recharter a clear approval with guidance and conditions, as it is done in many other organisations. In this way we can force the WG to focus their efforts and times. Still the IESG and IETF WGs are following authors to focus/work, so if the participant is bussy with less periority wg-item he/she must give more effort to most-priority and help authors in editting that. Please this needs to change especially in our MANET which seems dynamic in work and submission. Overall, WG participants should follow WG-schedules and IESG-approvals per priority. I advise that this charter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it seems dynamic recharter with future random flow), How can we fix this dynamic in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed items in the charter to be approved. What do you think? Best Regards AB On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/16/16, 8:31 AM, "Stephen Farrell" wrote: > > Hi! > > >>We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its > >>maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the WG is > >>done with the base specification. I don't have a problem if you think we > >>should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't think we can > >>put more details in at this point. > > > >Was DLEP ever mentioned before in the MANET WG charter? > > No, but AFAIK manet-type applications where the radio and the router are > not in the same box are the only ones requiring the functionality, which > is why the WG took on the work (several years ago) -- and had done other > related work before. > > > >I guess I'm > >wondering if it's really MANET specific and whether, if it was more > >broadly used, it'd also have potential privacy issues. > > Note that while MANET means "mobile..", mobility is of course relative and > anyone can successfully argue that any network "moves"... So, yes, it > could be used in other scenarios. One of my review comments was precisely > about that: if DLEP is used outside the expected deployment scenario, what > changes? > > > > Back to the charter... Should we explicitly list DLEP (not just > extensions, as Justin pointed out) as one of the deliverables? > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --001a1149a60a61098c0535a39227 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alvaro,

I get distracted by= many work items Last-calls/large-volume when they submited without priorit= y and specially when we work in MANET WG. Is their priority in approving it= ems/efforts. Management needs priority and clear work path, specially when = group of remote participants are working.

I would recommend to your = management that they focus the recharter to list item works per schedule/pe= riority. IMHO, in MANET one important job of AODVv2 was not completed becau= se of past other works that were not listed in charter and no priorities in= WG efforts.

=C2=A0I think that All ADs look into priorities of jobs= in each WG and work in line with Chairs, but it is not clear if we don'= ;t write it down in your approval. I am sorry that IESG approval has no pri= orities or words of instructions per recharter, but please advise if I am w= rong, I just see approvals without conditions and guidance. I think that th= ere are many work in MANET WG that can be accepted because the group works = are about mobile protocols, that is a problem. Mobile and dynamic does not = mean having dynamic in management of our projects. I did mention before abo= ut not to take many work in MANET WG but the ADs/Chairs did not follow my d= iscussion on the discuss-list. I think in future work that ADs and chair ne= ed to follow up seriously with items in each meeting.

I t= hink this WG needs to get approval from IESG of some focused and important = MANET drafts, one is maintenance of OLSRv2 and other MANET protocol. I prop= osed before that this WG needs a clear use case which is focused in a draft= , while the old draft of our manet-use case should be updated as recharter.= Only then we can see the priorities per items.=C2=A0 I remember when the D= LEP item was accepted I was wondering why me=20 as remote participant was not asked to accept or note.=C2=A0 I propose that= =20 DLEP should not continue in MANET only if the WG completes the multicast routing issues (so it should have less priority).

Please IESG look into priority and schedules of work items per WGs. Please= draw per recharter a clear approval with guidance and conditions, as it is= done in many other organisations. In this way we can force the WG to focus= their efforts and times. Still the IESG and IETF WGs are following authors= to focus/work, so if the participant is bussy with less periority wg-item = he/she must give more effort to most-priority and help authors in editting = that. Please this needs to change especially in our MANET which seems dynam= ic in work and submission. Overall, WG participants should follow WG-schedu= les and IESG-approvals per priority.

I advise that this charte= r needs more focused item works, clear draft (it seems dynamic recharter wi= th future random flow), How can we fix this dynamic in work submission/list= s/proposals without priorities or listed items in the charter to be approve= d. What do you think?

Best Regards

AB

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 3:51 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <are= tana@cisco.com> wrote:
On 6= /16/16, 8:31 AM, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote:

Hi!

>>We didn't explicitly put DLEP in the updated charter (just its<= br> >>maintenance) because the work passed WGLC, etc., so (hopefully) the= WG is
>>done with the base specification.=C2=A0 I don't have a problem = if you think we
>>should explicitly call out DLEP as a deliverable -- I don't thi= nk we can
>>put more details in at this point.
>
>Was DLEP ever mentioned before in the MANET WG charter?

No, but AFAIK manet-type applications where the radio and the router= are
not in the same box are the only ones requiring the functionality, which is why the WG took on the work (several years ago) -- and had done other related work before.


>I guess I'm
>wondering if it's really MANET specific and whether, if it was more=
>broadly used, it'd also have potential privacy issues.

Note that while MANET means "mobile..", mobility is of cou= rse relative and
anyone can successfully argue that any network "moves"...=C2=A0 S= o, yes, it
could be used in other scenarios.=C2=A0 One of my review comments was preci= sely
about that: if DLEP is used outside the expected deployment scenario, what<= br> changes?



Back to the charter...=C2=A0 Should we explicitly list DLEP (not just
extensions, as Justin pointed out) as one of the deliverables?

Thanks!

Alvaro.

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet

--001a1149a60a61098c0535a39227-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 06:23:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1D8E12D0C2; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:23:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d9h29IBqRGYK; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88F6612D107; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:23:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3660; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466428997; x=1467638597; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=5qEhw3JES6UkaSgTFpjCgi1rNzdyNl/1lT+vF6hZvt8=; b=C13kvYj+kAvMD4n+Ckp8ZxXmx7P03RR0towt6cFQ4qOc627nI3cN6gmY gwQWCMRZwrVbaGUtXMOSPfxBHhrUTIJ1ZLsIiF/6h+tS2ws4AdmJm7vLh mc4UnZqMeDKHh7rvfF3f5qaBaZOKzDxApJgFB/9wEJYwyAyQyqCgEJ1So w=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B5AgAE7mdX/5FdJa1egnBOVn0Grl2HA?= =?us-ascii?q?YJygg+BeiKFdQKBMTgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhEwBAQR5EAIBCAQ7ByERFBECBA4FiBY?= =?us-ascii?q?DFw68SA2DXgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARcFhieETYJDh1gFji2FG4R6N?= =?us-ascii?q?AGGBYYqgXqBaYd/hTqICodsAR42g3BuiUl/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,498,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="287743689" Received: from rcdn-core-9.cisco.com ([173.37.93.145]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jun 2016 13:23:15 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by rcdn-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5KDNFOk031345 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:23:15 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:23:14 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:23:14 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Abdussalam Baryun Thread-Topic: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRx808dRYa405TGUKSCC5Bq/PV8J/sDqmAgABcVgD//7HggIAFLHAAgAElm4A= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:23:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38D651912F446aretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , The IESG , Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:23:22 -0000 --_000_D38D651912F446aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/19/16, 11:52 AM, "Abdussalam Baryun" > wrote: AB: Hi! How are you? I advise that this charter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it s= eems dynamic recharter with future random flow), How can we fix this dynami= c in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed items in = the charter to be approved. What do you think? I'm sure you've seen the current version of the proposed charter: https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, which a= re the focused work items the WG has agreed on. I read the milestones as a= n indication of priorities - with the description in the charter of what th= e items are. Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list? Or mayb= e items that you think don't belong? Or is the milestones indication of pr= iorities not clear enough? Thanks! Alvaro. --_000_D38D651912F446aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6/19/16, 11:52 AM, "Abdussalam Baryun" <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

AB:

Hi!  How are you?

= I advise that this charter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it se= ems dynamic recharter with future random flow), How can we fix this dynamic= in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed items in t= he charter to be approved. What do you think?

I'm sure you've seen the current version of the proposed charter: = ;https://da= tatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/

As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, wh= ich are the focused work items the WG has agreed on.  I read the miles= tones as an indication of priorities — with the description in the ch= arter of what the items are.

Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list? &nb= sp;Or maybe items that you think don't belong?  Or is the milestones i= ndication of priorities not clear enough?

Thanks!

Alvaro.
--_000_D38D651912F446aretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 06:46:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2337712D0F4; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:45:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cgmjTCS7B3iP; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (ukmta2.baesystems.com [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D3E812D0C7; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:45:50 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,498,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="37386823" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 14:45:49 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,498,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="122760569" Received: from glkxh0003v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.34]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 14:45:49 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0003V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:45:49 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , Abdussalam Baryun Thread-Topic: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRykKsAVY7lK8bukOogefDWUqOZZ/ySIMAgAAVGEA= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:45:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D11E9GLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: Stephen Farrell , "manet@ietf.org" , The IESG , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:45:56 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D11E9GLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My comment is that the charter wording is the first place I've noticed that= it's been "baked in" that the multicast approach is to be based on SMF. SM= F is good within a MANET, except for the real problems of recognising dupli= cate packets which is why SMF has multiple incompatible mechanisms there. (= I presume getting that down to one for each of IPv4 and IPv6 would be a req= uirement.) But SMF may not help as much for groups that are inside and outside the MAN= ET. What's the design space here? (This also excludes ODMRP, which was in this group many years ago, dropped = out, resurfaced more recently, then went away again. Is that a decision? - = I'm not saying it's the wrong one, just wanting to check.) -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories __________________________________________________________________________ T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana (are= tana) Sent: 20 June 2016 14:23 To: Abdussalam Baryun Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; The IESG; Stephen Farrell Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (= with BLOCK) *** WARNING *** EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter= nal partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply. For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you= receive, click here. If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. On 6/19/16, 11:52 AM, "Abdussalam Baryun" > wrote: AB: Hi! How are you? I advise that this charter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it s= eems dynamic recharter with future random flow), How can we fix this dynami= c in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed items in = the charter to be approved. What do you think? I'm sure you've seen the current version of the proposed charter: https://d= atatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, which a= re the focused work items the WG has agreed on. I read the milestones as a= n indication of priorities - with the description in the charter of what th= e items are. Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list? Or mayb= e items that you think don't belong? Or is the milestones indication of pr= iorities not clear enough? Thanks! Alvaro. ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D11E9GLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My comment is that the ch= arter wording is the first place I’ve noticed that it’s been &#= 8220;baked in” that the multicast approach is to be based on SMF. SMF= is good within a MANET, except for the real problems of recognising duplicate pack= ets which is why SMF has multiple incompatible mechanisms there. (I presume= getting that down to one for each of IPv4 and IPv6 would be a requirement.= )

 <= /p>

But SMF may not help as m= uch for groups that are inside and outside the MANET. What’s the desi= gn space here?

 <= /p>

(This also excludes ODMRP= , which was in this group many years ago, dropped out, resurfaced more rece= ntly, then went away again. Is that a decision? - I’m not saying it’s the wrong one, just wanting to check.)=

 <= /p>

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: &nb= sp;+44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesyst= ems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.= baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP=

 <= /p>

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana (aretana)
Sent: 20 June 2016 14:23
To: Abdussalam Baryun
Cc: manet-chairs@ietf.org; manet@ietf.org; The IESG; Stephen Farrell=
Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-0= 3-05: (with BLOCK)

 

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside ou= r organization.

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

On 6/19/16, 11:52 AM, "= ;Abdussalam Baryun" <= abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

 

AB:

 

Hi!  How are you?=

 

I advise that this char= ter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it seems dynamic recharter = with future random flow), How can we fix this dynamic in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed items in the = charter to be approved. What do you think?<= o:p>

 

I'm sure you've seen the cu= rrent version of the proposed charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-i= etf-manet/

 

As you can see, there are s= pecific milestones listed at the bottom, which are the focused work items t= he WG has agreed on.  I read the milestones as an indication of priorities — with the description in the charter of what the item= s are.

 

Do you have specific work i= tems that you think belong on the list?  Or maybe items that you think= don't belong?  Or is the milestones indication of priorities not clear enough?

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
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--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D11E9GLKXM0002VGREEN_-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 06:56:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D2FD12D5C4 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:56:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.346 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.346 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DEgH3zyDG2aC for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta1.baesystems.com (ukmta1.baesystems.com [20.133.0.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D246212D591 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 06:56:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,498,1459810800"; d="scan'208";a="80717483" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 14:56:07 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,498,1459810800"; d="scan'208";a="122762880" Received: from glkxh0005v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.36]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 14:56:07 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0005V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:56:07 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Christopher Dearlove , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4vIPs5E88YPkOnu3lAZD3QM5/yapsw Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:56:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 13:56:16 -0000 T25lIGZvbGxvd3VwIHRvIHRoYXQuIEkgaW5kaWNhdGVkIEkgZGlkbid0IHRoaW5rIGEgcmVmZXJl bmNlIG9mIHRoZSBmb3JtIFtSRkMwNzkxXSwgcmF0aGVyIHRoYW4gW1JGQzc5MV0gd2FzIHVzdWFs LiBJJ20gc3RpbGwgbm90IHN1cmUgb2YgdGhhdC4gQnV0IGEgKGhpZ2ggcmVwdXRhdGlvbikgYm9v ayBJJ20gY3VycmVudGx5IHJlYWRpbmcsIGFuZCB0aGUgbGFzdCBJRCAoYnV0IG5vdCBSRkMpIHRo YXQgSSBqdXN0IGxvb2tlZCBhdCBkbyB0aGUgc2FtZS4gVWx0aW1hdGVseSBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIGRv 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10.25.209.71 with SMTP id i68mr4568401lfg.20.1466432361098; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:19:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.231 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:19:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:19:19 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: SFSnThPXa-jCp7lbCvRxkm_MbkA Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001a11412ba8f8985f0535b66383 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:19:34 -0000 --001a11412ba8f8985f0535b66383 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11412ba8f898580535b66381 --001a11412ba8f898580535b66381 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Chris, Thanks very much for your detailed review. I have updated the draft according to your comments. Please check our reply inline. A preliminary draft is also attached. On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:53 PM, Christopher Dearlove < christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > I=E2=80=99v looked at draft -09, and I think it still needs work. I have = some > followups from previous comments, some new comments, and some editorial > comments that I didn=E2=80=99t get round to making last time. And this ma= y not be > complete, but I=E2=80=99m up against the too short one week limit set. (I= =E2=80=99m afraid > we just aren=E2=80=99t getting given the necessary time in this group. An= d I seem > to be the only one commenting.) > > Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? Not= justified. And > should make it clear this applies to FEC applied across packets, not with= in > a packet. > removed "very important" to make it more neutral. Clarified that it's FEC across packets. > > Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count > limited, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case. > removed the text related to hop count. We agree that hop count is infamous :) > > Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? > Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" is less important. > Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data > rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, n= ot > the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. > We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated throughput and load balancing. So what do you think of: MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. > > RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style. > hmm... actually, the 0 is generated automatically by xml2rfc, as we simply used the reference to bibxml: in the reference, we put: ... &RFC791; ... and in the begin of the document, we put: then we got RFC0791 in the draft, because in the xml link provided by IETF, it's > > The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The > requirements this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This poi= nt > was made about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80=99t = identical, > but need to be specified. > We added the text: *In the reactive approach, a multi-path algorithm is invoked on demand, i.e., only when there is a datagram to be sent from the source to the destination, and there is no available Routing Tuple in the Multi-path Routing Set. This requires the IP to trigger the multi-path calculation specified in Section 8.5 when no Multi-path Routing Tuple is available.* Based on our experience, this is enough. Unlike AODVv2, which needs to wait for the route discovery), no buffering is required for olsrv2-multipath. > > MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11. > this is due to the limit of IPv4 header length. Explained in the draft. > > CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one. > Setting CUTOFF_RATIO to one means looking for disjoint equal length paths. If we are not using hop-count as metric type, it would be rare to get two equal metric paths. We modified the text to "equal to or greater than one", with a note "Note that setting the value to 1 means looking for equal length paths, which may not be possible in some networks. " > > PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as = well (e.g > Routing Set). > Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an additional field? It is not used anyways. > > Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged in > TC messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on > strongly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added. > hmmm... in the text, we now have: Please note that the TC message generation based on SR_TC_INTERVAL *does not replace the ordinary TC message generation specified in [RFC7181] and does not carry any address.* This is due to the fact that not all routers will generate TC messages based on OLSRv2. The TC generation based on SR_TC_INTERVAL serves for those routers to advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV so that the other routers can be aware of the source-route enabled routers so as to be used as destinations of multipath routing. The SR_TC_INTERVAL is set to a longer value than TC_INTERVAL. it should be OK, no? Well, it's probably more accurate by saying "*does not carry any advised address*", because there will be at least originator address. > A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry > times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting s= ets > change. If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactive mec= hanism). > When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flow then that= =E2=80=99s > another interaction with IP to document - and implement. The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no expiry timer is used. Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the multi-path routing set is updated. In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the "topology graph" is changed. The new tuples are recreated "on-demand". > > You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases whil= e > waiting. > > The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this > protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP proces= s, why > mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? > Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also: > > > > * Different path-selection schedulers. By default, Round-Robin > scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams. In so= me > scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for example, the > paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can transfer more > datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics.* > > Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s no > signalling that includes it. > The second bullet was: o If the length of the path (n) is greater than MAX_SRC_HOPS, only the "key" routers in the path are kept. The key routers can be chosen based on the capacity of the routers (e.g., battery life) or the router's willingness in forwarding data. If no such information is available, the key routers are uniformly chosen in the path. The point we want to make is: if there is such information available (based on metrics or other extensions), it can be used. If no, then choose uniformly. We rephrased the text a bit: * o If the length of the path (n) is greater than MAX_SRC_HOPS, only the "key" routers in the path are kept. By default, the key routers are uniformly chosen in the path. If further information such as capacity of the routers (e.g., battery life) or the routers' willingness in forwarding data is available, the routers with higher capacity and willingness are preferred.* > Section 9, related to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how the= final > bullet points arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D mean? > Those parameters defines different possible settings of multiple paths to be calculated by using different punish functions. We added more precise text for this part. Again, we appreciate your review. If you have any further comments, please let us know. regards Jiazi > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > --001a11412ba8f898580535b66381 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --001a11412ba8f898580535b66381-- --001a11412ba8f8985f0535b66383 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath.txt" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 X-Attachment-Id: f_ipo3yjhk0 CgoKTmV0d29yayBXb3JraW5nIEdyb3VwICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgIEouIFlpCkludGVybmV0LURyYWZ0ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgRWNvbGUgUG9seXRlY2huaXF1ZQpJbnRlbmRlZCBzdGF0dXM6IEV4cGVy aW1lbnRhbCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIEIuIFBhcnJlaW4KRXhwaXJl 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ICAgIFtQYWdlIDIzXQoMCg== --001a11412ba8f8985f0535b66383-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 07:43:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC7812D0C1; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:43:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Stephen Farrell" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.23.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160620144350.30162.92157.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:43:50 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Stephen Farrell's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-06: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:43:50 -0000 Stephen Farrell has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for handling my DLEP comment. From nobody Mon Jun 20 07:45:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28C9D12D113; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vWB60xbleIQb; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3688012D0C1; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:45:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10367; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466433935; x=1467643535; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=06PmrYyx2fwvrZg+sOflCr6AdD/b5oiJd6X7B0f0evA=; b=jf/zguSBBmwm7tUHxKwNZtP22fC9+vZfUAG4LHrveJ2vZ4IEDAzRLCsf 4PSvM2FdHW/VzoaHMmYjmCtzsrFh2nBRxb7f1mOn6/Uxxsqo2L1TttiHY tgr+57B19ZAF1zfxSK2WUEnZy/DMXu25KQvAD4AB5sQRld4yPJkBriDCW I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B5AgBKAGhX/49dJa1dgnBOVn0GtV+Cc?= =?us-ascii?q?oIPgXoihXUCgTI4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RMAQEEeRACAQg/BzIUEQIEDgWIMA7ASgE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARcFhieETYobBY4thRuFLgGGBYgkgWmEUohnj?= =?us-ascii?q?3YBHjaCCByBTG6JSX8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,499,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="285879515" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 20 Jun 2016 14:45:34 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5KEjYpL007448 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:45:34 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:45:33 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:45:33 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Thread-Topic: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRx808dRYa405TGUKSCC5Bq/PV8J/sDqmAgABcVgD//7HggIAFLHAAgAElm4CAAElnAP//zZsA Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:45:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38D735712F4BAaretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:45:43 -0000 --_000_D38D735712F4BAaretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/20/16, 9:45 AM, "iesg on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" on behalf of chris.dearlove@b= aesystems.com> wrote: [Took the IESG off as there's no need for them in this discussion.] Christopher: Hi! My comment is that the charter wording is the first place I've noticed that= it's been "baked in" that the multicast approach is to be based on SMF. SM= F is good within a MANET, except for the real problems of recognising dupli= cate packets which is why SMF has multiple incompatible mechanisms there. (= I presume getting that down to one for each of IPv4 and IPv6 would be a req= uirement.) But SMF may not help as much for groups that are inside and outside the MAN= ET. What's the design space here? (This also excludes ODMRP, which was in this group many years ago, dropped = out, resurfaced more recently, then went away again. Is that a decision? - = I'm not saying it's the wrong one, just wanting to check.) The charter text that was discussed on the list said: "The MANET WG will st= andardize a multicast MANET protocol framework based on previous work and l= essons learned for scoped forwarding within MANET networks." When reviewing it with the chairs, I asked: "Will SMF be used as a base ("b= ased on previous work and lessons learned") or what? If so, let's call it = out." That resulted in: "Standardize a multicast MANET protocol framework = based on Simplified Multicast Forwarding [RFC 6621] for scoped forwarding w= ithin MANET networks." I think a charter should be as specific and focused as possible, which is w= hy I asked the question. However, it is just a starting point - if, as you= point out, there are issues that the WG should consider and decides that S= MF is not the way to go then that will be the consensus and the way forward= . Even if specific, the charter is not meant to solve the work items for t= he WG. In other words, I don't think that calling out a starting point sho= uld preclude the WG from deciding to use a different base. Having said that, if you have better wording that is not as vague as "based= on previous work and lessons learned", and doesn't require the listing of = every possible starting point (I'm sure there may be others besides ODMRP),= please suggest it. We still have to time to play with words. The question about the design space is again one that the WG will have to r= esolve. One of the potential outcomes (obviously!) is to treat inside and = outside as separate problems (just an observation as a WG participant) -- t= he latest version [1] (resulting from the BLOCK) includes a little text abo= ut the manet WG interacting with others on potentially common issues, in th= is case the pim WG. That doesn't mean that you must agree with the pim WG = on every step, but that they are a resource that could be used because they= too have done previous work on multicast and have learned from it. Thanks! Alvaro. [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ --_000_D38D735712F4BAaretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <1AB9335C96F93F4E86E63CAC11927BE7@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6/20/16, 9:45 AM, "iesg on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK= )" <iesg-bounces@ietf.org<= /a> on behalf of chris.dearlove@baesystems.= com> wrote:

[Took the IESG off as there's no need for them in this discussion.]

Christopher:

Hi!

My comment is that the charter wording is the first place = I’ve noticed that it’s been “baked in” that the mul= ticast approach is to be based on SMF. SMF is good within a MANET, except for the real problems of recognising duplicate packets whi= ch is why SMF has multiple incompatible mechanisms there. (I presume gettin= g that down to one for each of IPv4 and IPv6 would be a requirement.)<= /o:p>

 

But SMF may not help as much for groups that are inside an= d outside the MANET. What’s the design space here?<= /p>

 

(This also excludes ODMRP, which was in this group many ye= ars ago, dropped out, resurfaced more recently, then went away again. Is th= at a decision? - I’m not saying it’s the wrong one, just wanting to check.)

The charter text that was discussed on the list said: "The MANET = WG will standardize a multicast MANET protocol framework based on previous = work and lessons learned for scoped forwarding within MANET networks."=

When reviewing it with the chairs, I asked: "Will SMF be used as = a base ("based on previous work and lessons learned") or what? &n= bsp;If so, let's call it out."  That resulted in: "Standardi= ze a multicast MANET protocol framework based on Simplified Multicast Forwarding [RFC 6621] for scoped forwarding within MANET networks."

I think a charter should be as specific and focused as possible, which= is why I asked the question.  However, it is just a starting point &#= 8212; if, as you point out, there are issues that the WG should consider an= d decides that SMF is not the way to go then that will be the consensus and the way forward.  Even if specific, th= e charter is not meant to solve the work items for the WG.  In other w= ords, I don't think that calling out a starting point should preclude the W= G from deciding to use a different base.

Having said that, if you have better wording that is not as vague as&n= bsp;"based on previous work and lessons learned", and doesn't req= uire the listing of every possible starting point (I'm sure there may be ot= hers besides ODMRP), please suggest it.  We still have to time to play with words.

The question about the design space is again one that the WG will have= to resolve.  One of the potential outcomes (obviously!) is to treat i= nside and outside as separate problems (just an observation as a WG partici= pant) -- the latest version [1] (resulting from the BLOCK) includes a little text about the manet WG interacting with= others on potentially common issues, in this case the pim WG.  That d= oesn't mean that you must agree with the pim WG on every step, but that the= y are a resource that could be used because they too have done previous work on multicast and have learned from it.

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--_000_D38D735712F4BAaretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 07:51:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 393C812B064; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:51:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hxipv4uWM2nC; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta1.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB55612B015; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 07:51:35 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,499,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="80743220" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 15:51:36 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,499,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="122776562" Received: from glkxh0002v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.33]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 15:51:34 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0002V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:51:33 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Thread-Topic: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRykKsAVY7lK8bukOogefDWUqOZZ/ySIMAgAAVGECAAAHngIAAEQfQ Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:51:33 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1235GLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:51:39 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1235GLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Yes, I should have removed the IESG. Apologies for that - though they won'= t see the apology.) I think I might use different words than "based on". I appreciate we don't = want to ignore SMF, and if we can manage a good uniqueness test I think it'= s a good solution for its part of the problem. But because of the "if" and = "part" I'd use perhaps "starting from". But it is the position rather than the words that really matter, and you've= summarised the position. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories __________________________________________________________________________ T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] Sent: 20 June 2016 15:46 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK) Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (= with BLOCK) *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter= nal partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply. For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you= receive, click here. If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. On 6/20/16, 9:45 AM, "iesg on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" on behalf of chris.dearlove@b= aesystems.com> wrote: [Took the IESG off as there's no need for them in this discussion.] Christopher: Hi! My comment is that the charter wording is the first place I've noticed that= it's been "baked in" that the multicast approach is to be based on SMF. SM= F is good within a MANET, except for the real problems of recognising dupli= cate packets which is why SMF has multiple incompatible mechanisms there. (= I presume getting that down to one for each of IPv4 and IPv6 would be a req= uirement.) But SMF may not help as much for groups that are inside and outside the MAN= ET. What's the design space here? (This also excludes ODMRP, which was in this group many years ago, dropped = out, resurfaced more recently, then went away again. Is that a decision? - = I'm not saying it's the wrong one, just wanting to check.) The charter text that was discussed on the list said: "The MANET WG will st= andardize a multicast MANET protocol framework based on previous work and l= essons learned for scoped forwarding within MANET networks." When reviewing it with the chairs, I asked: "Will SMF be used as a base ("b= ased on previous work and lessons learned") or what? If so, let's call it = out." That resulted in: "Standardize a multicast MANET protocol framework = based on Simplified Multicast Forwarding [RFC 6621] for scoped forwarding w= ithin MANET networks." I think a charter should be as specific and focused as possible, which is w= hy I asked the question. However, it is just a starting point - if, as you= point out, there are issues that the WG should consider and decides that S= MF is not the way to go then that will be the consensus and the way forward= . Even if specific, the charter is not meant to solve the work items for t= he WG. In other words, I don't think that calling out a starting point sho= uld preclude the WG from deciding to use a different base. Having said that, if you have better wording that is not as vague as "based= on previous work and lessons learned", and doesn't require the listing of = every possible starting point (I'm sure there may be others besides ODMRP),= please suggest it. We still have to time to play with words. The question about the design space is again one that the WG will have to r= esolve. One of the potential outcomes (obviously!) is to treat inside and = outside as separate problems (just an observation as a WG participant) -- t= he latest version [1] (resulting from the BLOCK) includes a little text abo= ut the manet WG interacting with others on potentially common issues, in th= is case the pim WG. That doesn't mean that you must agree with the pim WG = on every step, but that they are a resource that could be used because they= too have done previous work on multicast and have learned from it. Thanks! Alvaro. [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1235GLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

(Yes, I should have remov= ed the IESG. Apologies for that - though they won’t see the apology.)=

 <= /p>

I think I might use diffe= rent words than “based on”. I appreciate we don’t want to= ignore SMF, and if we can manage a good uniqueness test I think it’s= a good solution for its part of the problem. But because of the “if” = and “part” I’d use perhaps “starting from”.

 <= /p>

But it is the position ra= ther than the words that really matter, and you’ve summarised the pos= ition.

 <= /p>

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: &nb= sp;+44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesyst= ems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.= baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP=

 <= /p>

From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]
Sent: 20 June 2016 15:46
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-0= 3-05: (with BLOCK)

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

On 6/20/16, 9:45 AM, "= iesg on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <iesg-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of chris.dearlove@baesystems.= com> wrote:

 

[Took the IESG off as there= 's no need for them in this discussion.]

 

Christopher:

 

Hi!

 

My comment is that the charter wording is the fi= rst place I’ve noticed that it’s been “baked in” th= at the multicast approach is to be based on SMF. SMF is good within a MANET= , except for the real problems of recognising duplicate packets which is why SMF ha= s multiple incompatible mechanisms there. (I presume getting that down to o= ne for each of IPv4 and IPv6 would be a requirement.)

 

But SMF may not help as much for groups that are= inside and outside the MANET. What’s the design space here?

 

(This also excludes ODMRP, which was in this gro= up many years ago, dropped out, resurfaced more recently, then went away ag= ain. Is that a decision? - I’m not saying it’s the wrong one, just wanting to check.)=

 

The charter text that was d= iscussed on the list said: "The MANET WG will standardize a multicast = MANET protocol framework based on previous work and lessons learned for scoped forwarding within MANET networks."

 

When reviewing it with the = chairs, I asked: "Will SMF be used as a base ("based on previous = work and lessons learned") or what?  If so, let's call it out.&qu= ot;  That resulted in: "Standardize a multicast MANET protocol framework based = on Simplified Multicast Forwarding [RFC 6621] for scoped forwarding within = MANET networks."

 

I think a charter should be= as specific and focused as possible, which is why I asked the question. &n= bsp;However, it is just a starting point — if, as you point out, there are issues that the WG should consider and decides that SMF is not t= he way to go then that will be the consensus and the way forward.  Eve= n if specific, the charter is not meant to solve the work items for the WG.=  In other words, I don't think that calling out a starting point should preclude the WG from deciding to use a= different base.

 

Having said that, if you ha= ve better wording that is not as vague as "based on previous work= and lessons learned", and doesn't require the listing of every possib= le starting point (I'm sure there may be others besides ODMRP), please sugges= t it.  We still have to time to play with words.

 

The question about the desi= gn space is again one that the WG will have to resolve.  One of the po= tential outcomes (obviously!) is to treat inside and outside as separate problems (just an observation as a WG participant) -- the late= st version [1] (resulting from the BLOCK) includes a little text about the = manet WG interacting with others on potentially common issues, in this case= the pim WG.  That doesn't mean that you must agree with the pim WG on every step, but that they are a res= ource that could be used because they too have done previous work on multic= ast and have learned from it.

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************

--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1235GLKXM0002VGREEN_-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 08:56:08 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E094512D1B8 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:56:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.345 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.345 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bRGqt2932yX7 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta2.baesystems.com (ukmta2.baesystems.com [20.133.0.56]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA11E12D1B1 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 08:56:03 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,499,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="37401686" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta2.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 16:56:02 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,499,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="122788139" Received: from glkxh0003v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.34]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 20 Jun 2016 16:56:03 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0003V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:56:02 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Jiazi YI , Christopher Dearlove Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4vIPs5E88YPkOnu3lAZD3QM5/yYTeAgAAlw0A= Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:56:01 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1304GLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:56:08 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1304GLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Q29tbWVudHMgYmVsb3cuDQoNClNob3J0IHZlcnNpb24sIHN0aWxsIHNvbWUgcG9pbnRzIEkgdGhp bmsgY2FuIGJlIGltcHJvdmVkLiBEb3duIHRvIG9uZSBzdGlja2luZyBwb2ludCwgb24gZGVjaWRp bmcgb24gaG93IHRvIGhhbmRsZSBjaGFuZ2VzIHRvLCBhbmQgY2Vzc2F0aW9uIG9mLCB0aGUgcmVh 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Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:21:20 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] WG Review: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks (manet) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:21:21 -0000 The Mobile Ad-hoc Networks (manet) WG in the Routing Area of the IETF is undergoing rechartering. The IESG has not made any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2016-06-30. Mobile Ad-hoc Networks (manet) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Current status: Active WG Chairs: Stan Ratliff Justin Dean Secretaries: Ulrich Herberg Assigned Area Director: Alvaro Retana Routing Area Directors: Alia Atlas Alvaro Retana Deborah Brungard Mailing list: Address: manet@ietf.org To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/manet/ Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ The purpose of the MANET working group is to standardize IP routing protocol functionality suitable for wireless routing applications within both static and dynamic topologies with increased dynamics due to node motion or other factors. Approaches are intended to be relatively lightweight in nature, suitable for multiple hardware and wireless environments, and address scenarios where MANETs are deployed at the edges of an IP infrastructure. Hybrid mesh infrastructures (e.g., a mixture of fixed and mobile routers) should also be supported by MANET specifications and management features. When routing devices rely on modems to effect communications over wireless links, they need timely and accurate knowledge of the characteristics of the link (speed, state, etc.) in order to make routing decisions. In mobile or other environments where these characteristics change frequently, manual configurations or the inference of state through routing or transport protocols does not allow the router to make the best decisions. The WG will put special attention on the standardization of a bidirectional, dynamic link exchange protocol (DLEP) between the router and the modem. The MANET WG will coordinate with other Working Groups, such as the pim WG for multicast support, and the Routing Area WG (rtgwg), OSPF WG and Babel WG on the general use of DLEP. The MANET WG is responsible for the maintenance of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181], NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444], and their extensions. Work Items: - Develop a dynamic link exchange protocol (DLEP). - DLEP extension to provide a credit-windowing scheme for destination-specific flow control. - DLEP extensions for reporting statistics by traffic classification. - Multicast MANET protocol framework based on Simplified Multicast Forwarding [RFC 6621] for scoped forwarding within MANET networks. As part of this framework the WG will produce a well defined MANET multicast forwarding information base (FIB). - Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and managing MANET networks. Milestones: Nov 2016 - MANET Management Document (Informational) Nov 2016 - DLEP Credit Windowing Extensions (Standards Track) Nov 2016 - DLEP (Standards Track) Jul 2017 - DLEP traffic extensions (Standards Track) Nov 2017 - Multicast FIB (Standards Track) From nobody Mon Jun 20 09:53:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A908012D7D6 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:53:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4H7tP_MDOjTe for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FB4812D5D1 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:53:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id p10so170026641qke.3 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:53:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NS1z3SSJvsfnvcve4ZcZ8Txqsl0cLZVBab9fOgjOQMY=; b=uqNhvx88H+Vv0gnmFIdo6y3qU0th02L56xerVOyNpd8YctFEXbnHWCCZGhUrJfWOAY oKFpVJ42dOTQzDkTmU/xdFkeSHkYZlhNK+9LnGC49P9Tv5OPUhuxSSjR4hvJ8fUerPyE rDE3etW8IH/Giy03mu3hgdrQBfoWTHLRiQAveRl/FBkghrHUTfVXAju5Tnyh60+Jamgf BDiD8Vg96d/bsdfnlHcDhrGLeQKrz94a0TYZArHuACwUcmCSOxySS/i13obK1FT06LCp krX1GDZLnTamDqg+sly90h9LExqJ5KqfYldQe+c5pcBawJc+PqPAB6gezR7rXoQwkSoH VCJA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NS1z3SSJvsfnvcve4ZcZ8Txqsl0cLZVBab9fOgjOQMY=; b=DYgFSkb9GlmSDtzNZ2SX1bW7R2puprYqStjY94I6P2NtIqSWcnScWLFnzmSuhHRWJ/ NRntUY14NPLloLZW0pWq9R3QLNwAuky3rXjkH4JqM3TYAMN9Pzzb4O6S2F2lnWu80Cws 1MFLKkFYL2oYQcwLd+PCh4/RSpPVBFIGx/A2toATsgsfl5giej7BIzeK+Zi7Aeee/fLa 5yi+419qXFOCisjZhluHZvFluLzmCFkt0h/+jEeeLyIj6c8Nqo6TGN+DxuH70XnRaRcF 1aDftpRQ8ID8Bqwk005UdSJBl5Qo+35Mjbk95ZvDM2qHdI3/HGRQGqxnNT7vwn4PFEq2 B0/A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK5aq1udJAmMfeIIb/tDsDkYRonab4or4szcHUjzZOUpWEgsEri0HWAQxLw5p4XSHLGmg6908cElbMDig== X-Received: by 10.55.93.134 with SMTP id r128mr14471667qkb.16.1466441613742; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.140.84.37 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 09:53:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> From: Abdussalam Baryun Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:53:32 +0300 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e7a3c7b271a0535b88b06 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:53:39 -0000 --001a114e7a3c7b271a0535b88b06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Alvaro, I am ok, unfortunately I cannot attend this meeting because I am fasting Ramadan, but hope to join in other opportunities. On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/19/16, 11:52 AM, "Abdussalam Baryun" > wrote: > > AB: > > Hi! How are you? > > I advise that this charter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it > seems dynamic recharter with future random flow), How can we fix this > dynamic in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed > items in the charter to be approved. What do you think? > > > I'm sure you've seen the current version of the proposed charter: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ > yes > > As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, which > are the focused work items the WG has agreed on. I read the milestones a= s > an indication of priorities =E2=80=94 with the description in the charter= of what > the items are. > Milestones in my opinion are not priority indications, because in project management work-items mostly work in parallel, so milestones do not show priority, and in the past practice of MANET WG there are many later milestones that were advanced old milestones. I suggest that IETF and IESG change plans for approvals to add priority especial for groups like MANET WG. > > Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list? Or > maybe items that you think don't belong? Or is the milestones indication > of priorities not clear enough? > Yes, we worked MANET unicast manet routing; reactive and proactive, experimentals and standards but submitted successfully only the proactive as standard, so we need to work multicast manet routing now. So we need multicast reactive and multicast proactive routing, usually multicast routing is the most important routing in MANET environment. However, it was a great plan that MANET WG started in the past with unicast and now the new issue is multicast routing. We need multicast for reactive routing and multicast for proactive, we got a proposal before for a multicast routing which was presented in IETF89 meeting. Therefore, this group needs to focus on two new routing: 1- Multicast Reactive Routing, 2- Multicast Proactive Routing, in addition we may add 3- Hybrid Routing. The multicast routing is with high priority, because we only have very simple multicast, which MANET needs multicast because most use cases depend on group communication. IMHO, our group needs an information draft for MANET considerations and use cases. We had separate considerations in RFCs and we need to add uses of our past done protocols and looking to the future work use cases. This draft needs to work in parallel with updating RFC2501, which needs update specially that it ignore the new MANET packet and MANET interfaces. For example, in MANET WG the 5148 was just for jitter, and to solve issues related to a protocol, but we need a full picture of other considerations, and one place to have all consideration, not many documents with considerations. However, we need to separate a one item that covers MANET security considerations related to the MANET protocol, and security related to the MANET packet. Therefore, my overall suggestion is that the work items with priority are as follows: 1- MANET considerations and use cases (highest priority, p=3D1) 2- update of RFC2501 (p=3D2) 3- Multicast Reactive Routing (p=3D3) 4- Multicast Proactive Routing (p=3D3) 5- MANET security considerations (p=3D4) 6- Maintenance of OLSRv2 (p=3D3) Best Regards AB AB > --001a114e7a3c7b271a0535b88b06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alvaro,

I am ok, unfortunately I cann= ot attend this meeting because I am fasting Ramadan, but hope to join in ot= her opportunities.

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana@ci= sco.com> wrote:
On 6/19/16, 11:52 AM, "Abdussalam Baryun" <abdussalambaryun@gmail.co= m> wrote:

AB:

Hi!=C2=A0 How are you?

I advise that this charter needs more focused item works, clear draft (it se= ems dynamic recharter with future random flow), How can we fix this dynamic= in work submission/lists/proposals without priorities or listed items in t= he charter to be approved. What do you think?

I'm sure you've seen the current version of the propose= d charter:=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet<= /a>/



IMHO, our group needs an information draft = for MANET considerations and use cases. We had separate considerations in R= FCs and we need to add uses of our past done protocols and looking to the f= uture work use cases. This draft needs to work in parallel with updating RF= C2501, which needs update specially that it ignore the new MANET packet and= MANET interfaces. For example, in MANET WG the 5148 was just for jitter, a= nd to solve issues related to a protocol, but we need a full picture of oth= er considerations, and one place to have all consideration, not many docume= nts with considerations. However, we need to separate a one item that cover= s MANET security considerations related to the MANET protocol, and security= related to the MANET packet. Therefore, my overall suggestion is that the = work items with priority are as follows:

6- Maintenance of OLSRv2 (p=3D3)

<= div>AB



--001a114e7a3c7b271a0535b88b06-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 12:19:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 246D312D65E for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:19:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XpbNdsV8pdUa for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F33A112D73C for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10398; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466450338; x=1467659938; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=4e2jV8fB9dmrCYv94hEYcqj9lH83/I1+IVT+NlQksH0=; b=Zy/pWtcuqfQcPKhr7ydIb8bwmXbQZ+X2woYoZW/OT83wVO57rEF3db84 S/p4DaZ7YHhy0d1g6NUP7yLrYfiN3/tFtHXwYmADtNyOUySp7/7pJhwhG o4haXzW6Wcm2Ap5KFYcUFTfeLzSZ9mcAjKMWDAGQnYF5GlA4nzwQNOkLQ c=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CAAgADQWhX/4UNJK1dgnBOgVMGrmuHA?= =?us-ascii?q?YJygg+BeoYXAoE1OBQBAQEBAQEBZSeETAEBBHkQAgEIPwchERQRAgQOBYgWAxe?= =?us-ascii?q?9UA2DagEBAQEBAQQBAQEBAQEBAQEehieDSoEDgkOHWAWOLYUbhHo0AYwvgXqBa?= =?us-ascii?q?Yd/hTqGUIE6h2wBHjaCCByBTG6JSX8BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,500,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="285989742" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 20 Jun 2016 19:18:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5KJIuIn009139 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:18:56 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:18:56 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 14:18:55 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Abdussalam Baryun Thread-Topic: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) Thread-Index: AQHRx808dRYa405TGUKSCC5Bq/PV8J/sDqmAgABcVgD//7HggIAFLHAAgAElm4CAAH3bAP//5YuA Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:18:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D38D994712F61Faretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 19:19:00 -0000 --_000_D38D994712F61Faretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/20/16, 12:53 PM, "Abdussalam Baryun" > wrote: AB: Hi! ... As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, which a= re the focused work items the WG has agreed on. I read the milestones as a= n indication of priorities - with the description in the charter of what th= e items are. Milestones in my opinion are not priority indications, because in project m= anagement work-items mostly work in parallel, so milestones do not show pri= ority, and in the past practice of MANET WG there are many later milestones= that were advanced old milestones. I suggest that IETF and IESG change pla= ns for approvals to add priority especial for groups like MANET WG. I think that those are great comments for the WG Chairs to keep in mind, af= ter all, there are the ones responsible for the progress of the WG (rfc2418= ). Besides using milestones, the WG Chairs can use any other project mana= gement methodology to keep the WG on track. On the other hand, I don't think the IEFT/IESG should make special provisio= ns for any specific WG. Having said that, the WG Chairs and I will be work= ing together to make sure the focus of the WG is applied to the agreed upon= priorities. Some of your other suggestions (I left them below for reference) I think ma= y fit in items that are already in the charter. The WG may want to discuss= others and their priority - but that is something I will leave to the Chai= rs and the WG to decide. Thanks! Alvaro. Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list? Or mayb= e items that you think don't belong? Or is the milestones indication of pr= iorities not clear enough? Yes, we worked MANET unicast manet routing; reactive and proactive, experim= entals and standards but submitted successfully only the proactive as stand= ard, so we need to work multicast manet routing now. So we need multicast r= eactive and multicast proactive routing, usually multicast routing is the m= ost important routing in MANET environment. However, it was a great plan th= at MANET WG started in the past with unicast and now the new issue is multi= cast routing. We need multicast for reactive routing and multicast for proa= ctive, we got a proposal before for a multicast routing which was presented= in IETF89 meeting. Therefore, this group needs to focus on two new routing: 1- Multicast React= ive Routing, 2- Multicast Proactive Routing, in addition we may add 3- Hybr= id Routing. The multicast routing is with high priority, because we only ha= ve very simple multicast, which MANET needs multicast because most use case= s depend on group communication. IMHO, our group needs an information draft for MANET considerations and use= cases. We had separate considerations in RFCs and we need to add uses of o= ur past done protocols and looking to the future work use cases. This draft= needs to work in parallel with updating RFC2501, which needs update specia= lly that it ignore the new MANET packet and MANET interfaces. For example, = in MANET WG the 5148 was just for jitter, and to solve issues related to a = protocol, but we need a full picture of other considerations, and one place= to have all consideration, not many documents with considerations. However= , we need to separate a one item that covers MANET security considerations = related to the MANET protocol, and security related to the MANET packet. Th= erefore, my overall suggestion is that the work items with priority are as = follows: 1- MANET considerations and use cases (highest priority, p=3D1) 2- update of RFC2501 (p=3D2) 3- Multicast Reactive Routing (p=3D3) 4- Multicast Proactive Routing (p=3D3) 5- MANET security considerations (p=3D4) 6- Maintenance of OLSRv2 (p=3D3) Best Regards AB --_000_D38D994712F61Faretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6/20/16, 12:53 PM, "Abdussalam Baryun" <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> wrote:

AB:

Hi!

…


As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, wh= ich are the focused work items the WG has agreed on.  I read the miles= tones as an indication of priorities — with the description in the ch= arter of what the items are.

Milestones in my opinion are not priority indications, because in proj= ect management work-items mostly work in parallel, so milestones do not sho= w priority, and in the past practice of MANET WG there are many later miles= tones that were advanced old milestones. I suggest that IETF and IESG change plans for approvals to add priority es= pecial for groups like MANET WG.

I think that those are great comments for the WG Chairs to keep in min= d, after all, there are the ones responsible for the progress of the WG (rf= c2418).   Besides using milestones, the WG Chairs can use any other pr= oject management methodology to keep the WG on track.

On the other hand, I don't think the IEFT/IESG should make special pro= visions for any specific WG.  Having said that, the WG Chairs and I wi= ll be working together to make sure the focus of the WG is applied to the a= greed upon priorities.


Some of your other suggestions (I left them below for reference) I thi= nk may fit in items that are already in the charter.  The WG may want = to discuss others and their priority — but that is something I will l= eave to the Chairs and the WG to decide.

Thanks!

Alvaro.




Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list?&nbs= p; Or maybe items that you think don't belong?  Or is the milestones i= ndication of priorities not clear enough?

Yes, we worked MANET unicast manet routing; reactive and proactive, ex= perimentals and standards but submitted successfully only the proactive as = standard, so we need to work multicast manet routing now. So we need multic= ast reactive and multicast proactive routing, usually multicast routing is the most important routing in MANET = environment. However, it was a great plan that MANET WG started in the past= with unicast and now the new issue is multicast routing. We need multicast= for reactive routing and multicast for proactive, we got a proposal before for a multicast routing which was = presented in IETF89 meeting.

Therefore, this group needs to focus on two new routing: 1- Multicast = Reactive Routing, 2- Multicast Proactive Routing, in addition we may add 3-= Hybrid Routing. The multicast routing is with high priority, because we on= ly have very simple multicast, which MANET needs multicast because most use cases depend on group communication= .

IMHO, our group needs an information draft for MANET considerations an= d use cases. We had separate considerations in RFCs and we need to add uses= of our past done protocols and looking to the future work use cases. This = draft needs to work in parallel with updating RFC2501, which needs update specially that it ignore the new= MANET packet and MANET interfaces. For example, in MANET WG the 5148 was j= ust for jitter, and to solve issues related to a protocol, but we need a fu= ll picture of other considerations, and one place to have all consideration, not many documents with considera= tions. However, we need to separate a one item that covers MANET security c= onsiderations related to the MANET protocol, and security related to the MA= NET packet. Therefore, my overall suggestion is that the work items with priority are as follows:

1- MANET considerations and use cases   (highest priority, p= =3D1)
2- update of RFC2501     (p=3D2)
3- Multicast Reactive Routing (p=3D3)
4- Multicast Proactive Routing (p=3D3)
5- MANET security considerations (p=3D4)
6- Maintenance of OLSRv2 (p=3D3)

Best Regards
AB
 --_000_D38D994712F61Faretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Mon Jun 20 15:41:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FEC912D83F for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:41:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xIB5GnzJsJXL for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95DC412D1B7 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:41:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l188so49505019lfe.2 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:41:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=h38eQMyHWPgHKKKeLRxOqAw9symOI2EkogmORgwhSkw=; b=KRBRz1BVpgUBYHmgffaXF4UBoqZHxLDlRaP94lyewxf9WxAc+CXCVQB0myftDbaoIs U5xdjHO9ONQiyyXvsUioXjcCr3VI7aWSRIJr1rWC8CZ7CrAWZG8MbpaJH/pfwemtYrFz t32TlngRSomq7BDmjLioYjz+bfSV8UHMn+xAjCcUwppUNikcOxLvFRAykFBMkzRZXDjy j7BC1/0wBpjExbrmfyz74Ih/PZvSDGONYB6RyFplTfr0A578XaHhX6r8RiiFxl+GErMw YEjy72udQpsBi6L4WitpODt3XPgKyEA4FmBjPhhFCFnINVLnCtCS/Y7hXlUhCuPTTk6x 1YDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h38eQMyHWPgHKKKeLRxOqAw9symOI2EkogmORgwhSkw=; b=JlcT4117T1gEY3tk787TopoDv+xs5voAnncJhdhWIqn3MsEwGYMjIJznxKLPTZRgXL vjJfkbmnnk15BzY89m/ZjSMKh89cfVUX1YsAnH7X1/6C2AeIuUwho2BmXNsOlyo4xIqs NaMph0wdHLHLU7YM0Zs5GqHpaGpNecTKmFbUTW2k+kg4ExkpuMlXJbS7GjqPeiwnb5Lr ZTi7S3hIiLbsPPQtIjd0M93xYos+/Zo5ws+VbyqByhpoF40meU1QYSMTqlfmDLX3f08T HAPBkDkRfieOpyWh1ORd0kAzlD0E9tk0C/fdXRjfOZ9YKneGIQbuyo1FfnOAXjBE7Qjc 9ihA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK8zBhKBE8GJo0liF9VZE7XtC7nR/KOTh2E+8r/C3GGKJf9v/0co8Z4jHZ1GCdbRRoatW4WcNSoQ7FNNw== X-Received: by 10.25.214.161 with SMTP id p33mr3921523lfi.169.1466462505682; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:41:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.231 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2016 15:41:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 00:41:44 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: gcmX1J3-lL47mj_gOlLWM-ZoGyQ Message-ID: To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=001a1140d2beba71150535bd685c Archived-At: Cc: Christopher Dearlove , MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 22:41:53 -0000 --001a1140d2beba71150535bd685c Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1140d2beba710f0535bd685a --001a1140d2beba710f0535bd685a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > Comments below. > > > > Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down to one > sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation of= , > the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take= a > look at what you do in your implementation - now see if someone could wor= k > out to do that from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can. > > > we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed reply below. > > Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? > > > > Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks ar= e > transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" is > less important. > > > > CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it helps with packet re-ordering. > When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) doesn't really matter. > > > > > Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data > rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, n= ot > the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. > > > > We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link capacitie= s > span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated throughput and load > balancing. > > > > So what do you think of: > > > > MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding > single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput an= d > load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. > > > > CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate links. The issues ar= e > ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if there are > underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if > packets do not all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate > networks as much as low data rate ones. > > > It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low data rate links. > PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as = well (e.g > Routing Set). > > > > Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already > gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an > additional field? It is not used anyways. > > > > CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 = as a > suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d= made a > comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combin= e with that > Yes. we added some text on what "n" is. > A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry > times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting s= ets > change. > > If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactive > mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flo= w > then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and impleme= nt. > > > > The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6. > The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. O= ne > of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which = no > expiry timer is used. > > Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism as > OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the > multi-path routing set is updated. > > In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the > "topology graph" is changed. The new tuples are recreated "on-demand". > > > > CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that in the reactive case. (Proactive = is easy, > but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you gen= erate it > on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate > the set? > No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set. > If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and the > set disappears and you need to trigger it again. > Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required is trivial, because this is only local: no additional message exchange with other routers is required. > Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its start. > We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or not. There is no much difference from checking the FIB for IP. > If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know > when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops. > And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is required -= some changes to > the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a > link not being used). But it=E2=80=99s hard to specify. > For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", because even links that not used might matters: for example, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that introduces a better path. It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and could be optimised in the future, but considering it's a reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable. On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indicate > that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t matter= is > probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more importa= nt > - and needs text discussing it. > > > > You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases whil= e > waiting. > > The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this > protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP proces= s, why > mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? > > > > Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is > olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course, > using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact > the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points al= so: > > > > > > > > * Different path-selection schedulers. By default, Round-Robin > scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams. In > some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for example, > the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can transfer mo= re > datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics.* > > > > CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s not the round-robin that matt= ers, it=E2=80=99s > that IP needs to do anything. That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried.= Putting > together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, = perhaps in the > applicability section, is needed. > > > We added the following text in the applicability statement: *MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths to all the destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive calculation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. The proactive approach requires more computational resources than the reactive one. The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-path calculation.* *MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding plan to be able to choose which source route to be put in the source routing header based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, implementation of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source routing is required following [RFC6554].* As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed. regards Jiazi --001a1140d2beba710f0535bd685a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Comments below.

=C2=A0

Short version, still some points I think can= be improved. Down to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle chan= ges to, and cessation of, the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look at wha= t you do in your implementation - now see if someone could work out to do t= hat from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can.

=

=C2=A0

<= /blockquote>

we clarified this in the draft. Please chec= k the our detailed reply below.=C2=A0

<snip>= =C2=A0


Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?=

=C2=A0

Normally, the packets are coded in different "b= locks" and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The arrivi= ng order of those "blocks" is less important.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how= it helps with packet re-ordering.

=

When FEC is applied, the encod= er takes one or several packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted b= lock-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams i= n the disjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the= arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) doesn't rea= lly matter.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<snip>

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with chara= cterising as low data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity = by a small factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

=C2=A0

We won't claim that there will be orders of magn= itude that link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggrega= ted throughput and load balancing.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So what do you think of:

=C2=A0

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topo= logy by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregate= d throughput and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate link= s. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> Still not convinced by the ph= rase low data rate links. The issues are ones of load relative to network c= apacity, and in particular if there are underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if packets do not = all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate networks as much = as low data rate ones.

=C2=A0


It makes sense. I'm OK with rem= oving the text related to low data rate links.=C2=A0

<snip>
=C2=A0

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop coun= t? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as well (e.g Routing Set).<= /u>

=C2=A0

Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_ad= dress[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the i= nformation with an additional field? It is not used anyways.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could= be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some= tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d made a comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combine with that

Dear Chris,=C2=A0

Thanks very much for = your detailed review. I have updated the draft according to your comments.<= /div>

Please check our reply inline.=C2=A0 A preliminary= draft is also attached.=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 13, 2016 at 11:53 PM, Christopher Dearl= ove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:
=
I=E2=80=99v looked at draft -09, and I think it still need= s work. I have some followups from previous comments, some new comments, an= d some editorial comments that I didn=E2=80=99t get round to making last ti= me. And this may not be complete, but I=E2=80=99m up against the too short = one week limit set. (I=E2=80=99m afraid we just aren=E2=80=99t getting give= n the necessary time in this group. And I seem to be the only one commentin= g.)

Section 1.1, fifth bullet, =E2=80=9Cvery important=E2=80=9D. To whom? Not j= ustified. And should make it clear this applies to FEC applied across packe= ts, not within a packet.

removed "= very important" to make it more neutral. Clarified that it's FEC a= cross packets.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Page 4, third bullet, why discuss hop count? OLSRv2 is not hop count limite= d, it=E2=80=99s not even an explicit special case.
removed the text related to hop count. We agree that hop count = is infamous :)
=C2=A0

Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?

Normally, the packets are coded in different &qu= ot;blocks" and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The ar= riving order of those "blocks" is less important.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<snip>
Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data r= ate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, not = the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.
We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that = link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated through= put and load balancing.=C2=A0

So what do you think= of:

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding sing= le route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput and load= balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. =C2=A0
= =C2=A0

RFC0791, I think omitting the 0 is usual style.

hmm... actually, the 0 is generated automatically by xml2rfc, as w= e simply used the reference to bibxml:

in the refe= rence, we put:

<references title=3D"N= ormative References">
...=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 &a= mp;RFC791;
...
</references>
= =C2=A0
and in the begin of the document, we put:
then we got RFC0791 in the draft, because in the xml lin= k provided by IETF, it's=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <reference anchor=3D"RFC0791" target=3D"http://www= .rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791">


=
<snip>=C2=A0

The reactive approach in particular has interactions with IP. The requireme= nts this protocol imposes on IP need to be documented. (This point was made= about AODVv2, it applies here - the interactions aren=E2=80=99t identical,= but need to be specified.

We added the= text:

In the reactive approach, a multi-path a= lgorithm is invoked on demand, i.e., only when there is a datagram to be se= nt from the source to the destination, and there is no available Routing Tu= ple in the Multi-path Routing Set. This requires the IP to trigger the mult= i-path calculation specified in Section 8.5 when no Multi-path Routing Tupl= e is available.

Based on our experience, t= his is enough. Unlike AODVv2, which needs to wait for the route discovery),= no buffering is required for olsrv2-multipath.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

MAX_SRC_HOPS - explain 11.

this is due = to the limit of IPv4 header length. Explained in the draft.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

CUTOFF_RATIO - why strictly greater than one? Should work equal to one.
=

Setting CUTOFF_RATIO to one means looking = for disjoint equal length paths. If we are not using hop-count as metric ty= pe, it would be rare to get two equal metric paths.=C2=A0
We modi= fied the text to "equal to or greater than one", with a note &quo= t;Note that setting the value to 1 means looking for equal length paths, wh= ich may not be possible in some networks. "
=C2=A0
<snip>=C2=A0

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as we= ll (e.g Routing Set).

Actually, the num= ber of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already gives the hop count= -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an additional field? It = is not used anyways.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
<snip>=C2=A0

Still no discussion of advertised addresses, should they be encouraged in T= C messages. Except SR required TC messages, see previous proposal on strong= ly recommending against them. I can=E2=80=99t see that added.

hmmm... in the text, we now have:

Please note that the TC message generation based on SR_TC_INTERVAL <= b>does not replace the ordinary TC message generation specified in [RFC7181= ] and does not carry any address. This i= s due to the fact that not all routers will generate TC messages based on O= LSRv2. The TC generation based on SR_TC_INTERVAL serves for those routers t= o advertise SOURCE_ROUTE TLV so that the other routers can be aware of the = source-route enabled routers so as to be used as destinations of multipath = routing. The SR_TC_INTERVAL is set to a longer value than TC_INTERVAL.
<= /div>

it should be OK, no? Well, it's probably more = accurate by saying "does not carry any advised address", b= ecause there will be at least originator address. =C2=A0


A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times= . If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets cha= nge.=C2=A0
If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a m= ess (a reason I dislike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to r= ecreate? If dependent on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interactio= n with IP to document - and implement.

The = update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6. The e= xpiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. One of t= he reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no exp= iry timer is used.=C2=A0
Generally speaking, in proactive mode, i= t follows the same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update= the OLSRv2 routing set, the multi-path routing set is updated.=C2=A0
=
In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when t= he "topology graph" is changed.=C2=A0 The new tuples are recreate= d "on-demand".=C2=A0
=C2=A0

You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while = waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this prot= ocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why= mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is olsrv2-multipat= h specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course, using round-robi= n is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact the compatibi= lity. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also:
<= br>
=C2=A0Different path-selection schedulers= .=C2=A0 By default, Round-Robin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scheduling is used = to select a path to be used for datagrams.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transfer more datagrams compared to paths with hig= her metrics.
=C2=A0

Page 12, second bullet. How is this information known? There=E2=80=99s no s= ignalling that includes it.

The second = bullet was:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0o =C2=A0If the lengt= h of the path (n) is greater than MAX_SRC_HOPS, only
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 the "key" routers in the path are kept.=C2=A0 The key = routers can be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 chosen based on the capacity = of the routers (e.g., battery life)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or the r= outer's willingness in forwarding data.=C2=A0 If no such
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 information is available, the key routers are uniformly c= hosen in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the path.

The point we want to make is: if there is such information available = (based on metrics or other extensions), it can be used. If no, then choose = uniformly. We rephrased the text a bit:

=C2=A0 = o =C2=A0If the length of the path (n) is greater than MAX_SRC_HOPS, only th= e "key" routers in the path are kept. By default, the key routers= are uniformly chosen in the path. If further information such as capacity = of the routers (e.g., battery life) or the routers' willingness in forw= arding data is available, the routers with higher capacity and willingness = are preferred.
=C2=A0

<snip>
=C2=A0
Section 9, rel= ated to not reviewing 8.5.2, it=E2=80=99s not clear how the final bullet po= ints arise. And what does =E2=80=9Ctend to=E2=80=9D mean?
<= div>
Those parameters defines different possible settings of = multiple paths to be calculated by using different punish functions.=C2=A0<= /div>
We added more precise text for this part.=C2=A0

Again, we appreciate your review. If you have any further comments,= please let us know.=C2=A0

regards

<= /div>
Jiazi


=C2=A0
=C2=A0

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manet mailing list
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


Yes. we added some text on what "n" is.=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
<snip>

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times= . If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets cha= nge.=C2=A0

If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I d= islike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If depen= dent on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to docu= ment - and implement.

=C2=A0

The update of the the Multi-path routing set is desc= ribed in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the = comments received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 r= outing set, in which no expiry timer is used.=C2=A0

Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows th= e same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 = routing set, the multi-path routing set is updated.=C2=A0

In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples = are removed when the "topology graph" is changed.=C2=A0 The new t= uples are recreated "on-demand".=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about= that in the reactive case. (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, wh= ich it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set?


No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set= .=C2=A0
=C2=A0

If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing an= d the set disappears and you need to trigger it again.


Yes, it n= ecessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required is trivial= , because this is only local: no additional message exchange with other rou= ters is required.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow,= not just at its start.


We don't actually have the concept "flow&qu= ot; in this extension. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check = if a tuple exist or not. There is no much difference from checking the FIB = for IP.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how d= o you know when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the fl= ow stops.=C2=A0

<= div>

And =E2=80=9Ct= he Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is required - some changes = to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a link not being used). But = it=E2=80=99s hard to specify.


For the moment, we simply take &qu= ot;the topology graph changes", because even links that not used might= matters: for example, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that int= roduces a better path. =C2=A0
It's true that it's possibl= e that it's more than required and could be optimised in the future, bu= t considering it's a reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable.= =C2=A0

On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indi= cate that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t mat= ter is probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more important - and needs text d= iscussing it.=C2=A0

<= /u>

=C2=A0


You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while = waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this prot= ocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why= mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

=C2=A0

Choosing which path to put in the source routing hea= der is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of co= urse, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won'= t impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0Different path-selection schedulers.=C2=A0 = By default, Round-Robin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scheduling is used to select a path to be used for dat= agrams.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered:= for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher qu= ality) can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher = metrics.

=C2=A0

CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80= =99s not the round-robin that matters, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do any= thing. That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, perhaps in= the applicability section, is needed.

=C2=A0


We added the followi= ng text in the applicability statement:

MP= -OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation ap= proaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths t= o all the destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive calcul= ation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. T= he proactive approach requires more computational resources than the reacti= ve one. The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger th= e multi-path calculation.

MP-OLSRv2 = forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there are multiple p= aths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding plan to be a= ble to choose which source route to be put in the source routing header bas= ed on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, implement= ation of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 net= works, implementation of strict source routing is required following [RFC65= 54].

As usual, an updated draft is attac= hed, in case needed.=C2=A0

regards

<= /div>
Jiazi


=C2=A0
<= /div>
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[82.132.246.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id yr4sm54430147wjc.18.2016.06.20.16.02.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:02:21 -0700 (PDT) References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-41545777-D556-443D-A7B6-1D31DD5545DD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (13F69) From: Christopher Dearlove Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 00:02:12 +0100 To: Jiazi YI Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , Christopher Dearlove , MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2016 23:02:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail-41545777-D556-443D-A7B6-1D31DD5545DD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, only applica= ble to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal. -- =20 Christopher Dearlove > On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI wrote: >=20 > Hi,=20 >=20 >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >> Comments below. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down to one sti= cking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation of, the r= eactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look a= t what you do in your implementation - now see if someone could work out to d= o that from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can. >>=20 >=20 > we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed reply below.= =20 >=20 > =20 >>=20 >> Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks ar= e transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" is le= ss important.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it helps with packet re-ordering. >>=20 >=20 > When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets and produce s= everal coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks ar= e forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. Because the encoded block= s are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of the sam= e packet(s) doesn't really matter.=20 > =20 >> =20 >>=20 >> >>=20 >> Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data= rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, not= the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link capacitie= s span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated throughput and load ba= lancing.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> So what do you think of: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding sing= le route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput and load b= alancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. =20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate links. The issues ar= e ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if there are u= nderutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if pack= ets do not all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate network= s as much as low data rate ones. >>=20 >=20 > It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low data rate lin= ks.=20 >=20 > > =20 >> PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as w= ell (e.g Routing Set). >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already g= ives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an addi= tional field? It is not used anyways.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 a= s a suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99= d made a comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can c= ombine with that >>=20 >=20 > Yes. we added some text on what "n" is.=20 > =20 > >> A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry tim= es. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets ch= ange.=20 >>=20 >> If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactive m= echanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flow th= en that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and implement. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6.= The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. One= of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no= expiry timer is used.=20 >>=20 >> Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism as O= LSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the multi= -path routing set is updated.=20 >>=20 >> In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the "= topology graph" is changed. The new tuples are recreated "on-demand".=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that in the reactive case. (Proactive i= s easy, but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, yo= u generate it on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you r= ecalculate the set? >>=20 >=20 > No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set.=20 > =20 >> If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and the s= et disappears and you need to trigger it again. >>=20 >=20 > Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required i= s trivial, because this is only local: no additional message exchange with o= ther routers is required.=20 > =20 >> Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its start.= >>=20 >=20 > We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. For each data= gram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or not. There is no much= difference from checking the FIB for IP.=20 > =20 >> If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know wh= en to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops.=20 >>=20 >> And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is required= - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase i= n metric of a link not being used). But it=E2=80=99s hard to specify. >>=20 >=20 > For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", because even l= inks that not used might matters: for example, the decrease in metric of a n= ot used metric that introduces a better path. =20 > It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and could be opt= imised in the future, but considering it's a reactive approach, I believe it= 's acceptable.=20 >=20 >> On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indicate= that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t matter i= s probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more importan= t - and needs text discussing it.=20 >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >>=20 >> You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases whil= e waiting. >>=20 >> The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this pr= otocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, wh= y mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is olsrv2-multipa= th specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course, using round-robi= n is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact the compatibility.= Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also: >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> Different path-selection schedulers. By default, Round-Robin >> scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams. In >> some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for >> example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can >> transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics. >>=20 >> =20 >>=20 >> CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s not the round-robin that matt= ers, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do anything. That=E2=80=99s what needs no= t to be buried. Putting together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D= section early on, perhaps in the applicability section, is needed. >>=20 >=20 > We added the following text in the applicability statement: >=20 > MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation= approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths= to all the destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive calcu= lation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. T= he proactive approach requires more computational resources than the reactiv= e one. The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the m= ulti-path calculation. >=20 > MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there are= multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding pl= an to be able to choose which source route to be put in the source routing h= eader based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, i= mplementation of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. For I= Pv6 networks, implementation of strict source routing is required following [= RFC6554]. >=20 > As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed.=20 >=20 > regards >=20 > Jiazi >=20 >=20 > =20 > --Apple-Mail-41545777-D556-443D-A7B6-1D31DD5545DD Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
"Because the encoded blocks are unorde= red for FEC" is, at best, only applicable to some FEC methods, it's definite= ly not universal.

--  
Christopher Dearlove
=
On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

=
Hi, 

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Comments below.

 

Short version, still some points I think can b= e improved. Down to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes= to, and cessation of, the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look at what= you do in your implementation - now see if someone could work out to do tha= t from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can.

 


we clarified this in the draft. Please check t= he our detailed reply below. 

<snip>&nbs= p;


Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?<= /u>

 

Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks"= and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of t= hose "blocks" is less important. 

 

CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how i= t helps with packet re-ordering.


When FEC is applied, the encoder t= akes one or several packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted block-= 1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams in the d= isjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the arrivin= g order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) doesn't really matter.&n= bsp;
 

=

 

<snip>

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with charac= terising as low data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by= a small factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

 

We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude= that link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated th= roughput and load balancing. 

 

So what do you think of:

 

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topol= ogy by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated t= hroughput and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. &= nbsp;

 

CMD> Still not convinced by the phra= se low data rate links. The issues are ones of load relative to network capa= city, and in particular if there are underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if packets do not a= ll need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate networks as much as= low data rate ones.

 

=

It makes sense. I'm OK with removing t= he text related to low data rate links. 

<s= nip>
 

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in= OLSRv2 we record that as well (e.g Routing Set).

 

Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_add= ress[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the inf= ormation with an additional field? It is not used anyways. 

 

CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could b= e called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some to= ols might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d made a comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combine with that


<= div>Yes. we added some text on what "n" is. 
 
<snip>

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times.= If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets chang= e. 

If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I di= slike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If depende= nt on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to documen= t - and implement.

 

The update of the the Multi-path routing set is descr= ibed in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the co= mments received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 rout= ing set, in which no expiry timer is used. 

Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the= same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 ro= uting set, the multi-path routing set is updated. 

In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples a= re removed when the "topology graph" is changed.  The new tuples are re= created "on-demand". 

 

CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about t= hat in the reactive case. (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, which= it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set?


No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set.&n= bsp;
 

= If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and the set d= isappears and you need to trigger it again.


Yes, it necessary to t= rigger the calculation again. But the time required is trivial, because this= is only local: no additional message exchange with other routers is require= d. 
 

Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its start.


We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this exte= nsion. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or n= ot. There is no much difference from checking the FIB for IP. 
 

If you do (re= calculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know when to stop calcu= lating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops. 

And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is m= ore than is required - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a link not being used). But i= t=E2=80=99s hard to specify.

=

For the moment, we simply take "the t= opology graph changes", because even links that not used might matters: for e= xample, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that introduces a better= path.  
It's true that it's possible that it's more than req= uired and could be optimised in the future, but considering it's a reactive a= pproach, I believe it's acceptable. 

On this point (which changes) some sort o= f permissive wording to indicate that you can avoid making changes when you k= now they don=E2=80=99t matter is probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more important - and needs text di= scussing it. 

 


You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while w= aiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this proto= col. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why m= andate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

 

Choosing which path to put in the source routing head= er is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of cour= se, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impac= t the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also:

 

 Different path-selection schedulers.  B= y default, Round-Robin
      scheduling is used to select a path to be used for data= grams.  In
      some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: f= or
      example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher qua= lity) can
      transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher m= etrics.

 =

CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s= not the round-robin that matters, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do anything= . That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, perhaps in t= he applicability section, is needed.

 


We added the following t= ext in the applicability statement:

MP-OLSR= v2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation approach= es: proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths to all t= he destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive calculation, o= nly the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. The proact= ive approach requires more computational resources than the reactive one. Th= e reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-pat= h calculation.

MP-OLSRv2 forwards dat= agrams using the source routing header. As there are multiple paths to each d= estination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding plan to be able to choose w= hich source route to be put in the source routing header based on the path s= cheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, implementation of loose so= urce routing is required following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementat= ion of strict source routing is required following [RFC6554].

As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed.=  

regards

Jiazi
=


 
<draft-ietf-manet-olsrv= 2-multipath.txt>
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smtp-tls.univ-nantes.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E534940170D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:26:48 +0200 (CEST) To: manet@ietf.org References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> <9B1ED0B1-E672-4BAA-9B06-DC4A7870D456@univ-nantes.fr> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Beno=c3=aet_Parrein?= Message-ID: <57691666.9070209@polytech.univ-nantes.fr> Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 12:26:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040908070500020607050502" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 10:26:57 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040908070500020607050502 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit we talk about packet erasure coding there with an identifier of received packets. the bytes arrive in order and correctly (if they arrive). a reformulation about this point will be done. cheers bparrein Le 21/06/2016 10:39, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) a écrit : > > Reed Solomon itself needs the bytes in order. Possibly a packaging of > it may be able to cope. > > *-- * > > *Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories > **__________________________________________________________________________ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > *From:*Benoit Parrein [mailto:benoit.parrein@univ-nantes.fr] > *Sent:* 21 June 2016 08:14 > *To:* Christopher Dearlove > *Cc:* Jiazi YI; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF > *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 > > **** WARNING **** > > /This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.// > /Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply./ > /For information regarding //*/Red Flags/*/that you can look out for > in emails you receive, click here > .// > /If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .// > > hi christopher > > you are right. a reformulation seems to be necessary. > > but most of fec methods (reed solomon, ldpc, mojette...) can decode in > any order of reception (hopefully) > > thanks for your comment > > bparrein > > > Le 21 juin 2016 à 01:02, Christopher Dearlove > > a écrit : > > "Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, > only applicable to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal. > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > > > On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI > wrote: > > Hi, > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > > wrote: > > Comments below. > > Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down > to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes > to, and cessation of, the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I > think this is a real issue. Take a look at what you do in your > implementation - now see if someone could work out to do that > from the text. I don’t think they can. > > we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed > reply below. > > > > > Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet > re-ordering? > > Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and > those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The > arriving order of those "blocks" is less important. > > CMD> I still don’t see how it helps with packet re-ordering. > > When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets > and produce several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, > ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams in > the disjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are unordered > for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same > packet(s) doesn't really matter. > > > > Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with > characterising as low data rate links. At most the > protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, not > the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. > > We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that > link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have > aggregated throughput and load balancing. > > So what do you think of: > > MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology > by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide > higher aggregated throughput and load balancing, which is > beneficial for low data rate links. > > CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate > links. The issues are ones of load relative to network > capacity, and in particular if there are underutilised > parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if > packets do not all need to arrive. These can all occur in > high data rate networks as much as low data rate ones. > > It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low > data rate links. > > > > PT_… What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we > record that as well (e.g Routing Set). > > Actually, the number of the items in the array > PT_address[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it > necessary to repeat the information with an additional > field? It is not used anyways. > > CMD> That it’s there could be called out. It gets used in > OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might > use it. I thought I’d made a comment to say what n is, > which I don’t see here. This can combine with that > > Yes. we added some text on what "n" is. > > > > A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples > without expiry times. If proactive you can (but don’t) > discuss when supporting sets change. > > If reactive it’s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the > reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to > recreate? If dependent on packet flow then that’s > another interaction with IP to document - and implement. > > The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described > in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 > based on the comments received. One of the reasons is to > be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no > expiry timer is used. > > Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same > mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update > the OLSRv2 routing set, the multi-path routing set is > updated. > > In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are > removed when the "topology graph" is changed. The new > tuples are recreated "on-demand". > > CMD> OK, let’s think about that in the reactive case. > (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, which it > isn’t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. There > is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate > the set? > > No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing > Set. > > If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are > flowing and the set disappears and you need to trigger it > again. > > Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the > time required is trivial, because this is only local: no > additional message exchange with other routers is required. > > Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not > just at its start. > > We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. > For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple > exist or not. There is no much difference from checking the > FIB for IP. > > If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how > do you know when to stop calculating it? That depends on > knowing when the flow stops. > > And “the Topology Graph changes” is more than is required > - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for > example the increase in metric of a link not being used). > But it’s hard to specify. > > For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", > because even links that not used might matters: for example, > the decrease in metric of a not used metric that introduces a > better path. > > It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and > could be optimised in the future, but considering it's a > reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable. > > On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive > wording to indicate that you can avoid making changes when > you know they don’t matter is probably right. The when do > you stop calculating question is more important - and > needs text discussing it. > > > You could when acting reactively forward by usual > means in all cases while waiting. > > The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP > process, not this protocol. Needs to not be buried in > 8.4. And if it’s an IP process, why mandate exactly > how it’s used? > > Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is > olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of > them. Of course, using round-robin is not mandatory -- > using other schedulers won't impact the compatibility. > Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also: > > / Different path-selection schedulers. By default, > Round-Robin > scheduling is used to select a path to be used > for datagrams. In > some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be > considered: for > example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., > higher quality) can > transfer more datagrams compared to paths with > higher metrics./ > > CMD> This is missing my point. It’s not the round-robin > that matters, it’s that IP needs to do anything. That’s > what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear > “what IP needs to do” section early on, perhaps in the > applicability section, is needed. > > We added the following text in the applicability statement: > > /MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable > multi-path calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In > the proactive calculation, the paths to all the destinations > are calculated before needed. In the reactive calculation, > only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on > demand. The proactive approach requires more computational > resources than the reactive one. The reactive approach > requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-path > calculation./ > > /MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. > As there are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 > requires the IP forwarding plan to be able to choose which > source route to be put in the source routing header based on > the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, > implementation of loose source routing is required following > [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source > routing is required following [RFC6554]./ > > As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed. > > regards > > Jiazi > > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet -- ---------------- Benoît Parrein Maître de Conférences (HDR) Université de Nantes (Polytech Nantes), laboratoire IRCCyN web: http://www.irccyn.ec-nantes.fr/~parrein/ tel: +33(0)240683050 --------------040908070500020607050502 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit we talk about packet erasure coding there with an identifier of received packets. the bytes arrive in order and correctly (if they arrive). a reformulation about this point will be done.

cheers
bparrein


Le 21/06/2016 10:39, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) a écrit :

Reed Solomon itself needs the bytes in order. Possibly a packaging of it may be able to cope.

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
__________________________________________________________________________

T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

 

From: Benoit Parrein [mailto:benoit.parrein@univ-nantes.fr]
Sent: 21 June 2016 08:14
To: Christopher Dearlove
Cc: Jiazi YI; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or the internet.
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hi christopher

you are right. a reformulation seems to be necessary.

but most of fec methods (reed solomon, ldpc, mojette...) can decode in any order of reception (hopefully)

thanks for your comment

bparrein


Le 21 juin 2016 à 01:02, Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> a écrit :

"Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, only applicable to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal.

--  

Christopher Dearlove


On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

Hi, 

 

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Comments below.

 

Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation of, the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look at what you do in your implementation - now see if someone could work out to do that from the text. I don’t think they can.

 

 

we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed reply below. 

 

<snip> 


Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?

 

Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" is less important. 

 

CMD> I still don’t see how it helps with packet re-ordering.

 

When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) doesn't really matter. 

 

 

<snip>

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

 

We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated throughput and load balancing. 

 

So what do you think of:

 

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links.  

 

CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate links. The issues are ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if there are underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if packets do not all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate networks as much as low data rate ones.

 

 

It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low data rate links. 

 

<snip>

 

PT_… What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as well (e.g Routing Set).

 

Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an additional field? It is not used anyways. 

 

CMD> That it’s there could be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I’d made a comment to say what n is, which I don’t see here. This can combine with that

 

Yes. we added some text on what "n" is. 

 

<snip>

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times. If proactive you can (but don’t) discuss when supporting sets change. 

If reactive it’s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flow then that’s another interaction with IP to document - and implement.

 

The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no expiry timer is used. 

Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the multi-path routing set is updated. 

In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the "topology graph" is changed.  The new tuples are recreated "on-demand". 

 

CMD> OK, let’s think about that in the reactive case. (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, which it isn’t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set?

 

No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set. 

 

If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and the set disappears and you need to trigger it again.

 

Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required is trivial, because this is only local: no additional message exchange with other routers is required. 

 

Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its start.

 

We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or not. There is no much difference from checking the FIB for IP. 

 

If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops. 

And “the Topology Graph changes” is more than is required - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a link not being used). But it’s hard to specify.

 

For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", because even links that not used might matters: for example, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that introduces a better path.  

It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and could be optimised in the future, but considering it's a reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable. 

 

On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indicate that you can avoid making changes when you know they don’t matter is probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more important - and needs text discussing it. 

 


You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it’s an IP process, why mandate exactly how it’s used?

 

Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also:

 

 Different path-selection schedulers.  By default, Round-Robin
      scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams.  In
      some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for
      example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can
      transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics.

 

CMD> This is missing my point. It’s not the round-robin that matters, it’s that IP needs to do anything. That’s what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear “what IP needs to do” section early on, perhaps in the applicability section, is needed.

 

 

We added the following text in the applicability statement:

 

MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths to all the destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive calculation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. The proactive approach requires more computational resources than the reactive one. The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-path calculation.

 

MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding plan to be able to choose which source route to be put in the source routing header based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, implementation of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source routing is required following [RFC6554].

 

As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed. 

 

regards

 

Jiazi

 

 

 

<draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath.txt>

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-- 
----------------
Benoît Parrein
Maître de Conférences (HDR)
Université de Nantes (Polytech Nantes), laboratoire IRCCyN
web: http://www.irccyn.ec-nantes.fr/~parrein/
tel: +33(0)240683050
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Topics of interest include, but are not limited to: - Delay/disruption-tolerant networks (DTNs), opportunistic communication and computing - Architecture, design, and implementation of communication systems for challenged networks - Modeling, analysis, and characterization of challenged networks and protocols - Challenged networking techniques for mobile cloud computing - Mobile data offloading via challenged networks - Challenged networking techniques for participatory and opportunistic sensing - Challenged networking in the Internet of Things - Big data analytics in challenged networking - Software-defined networking in challenged environments - Security/trust/privacy concerns and solutions in challenged networks - Energy-efficient communication in challenged networks - Information centric and content-centric networking in challenged networks - Real-world mobility trace collection, analysis, and modeling for challenged environments - Network science methods for challenged networks - Network coding in challenged networks - Novel challenged networking systems (e.g., networks of micro aerial vehicles) - Real deployment and case studies in various stages of use - Disrupted scenarios for challenged networks (e.g., disaster relief and emergency management) - Daily use applications (e.g., mobile social networking, crowdsourcing, censorship evasion, sensor networks, smart cities) - Test and simulation tools for evaluating challenged network systems - Configuration, management, and monitoring of challenged networks. PAPER FORMAT AND SUBMISSION INSTRUCTIONS ---------------------------------------- Submitted papers must be no longer than 6 pages, and should adhere to the standard ACM conference proceedings format. Demo proposals (to be published as part of the proceedings) must not be longer than 2 pages plus 1 page description of the precise setup and requirements (the 1-page setup description will not be published in the proceedings). Reviews will be single-blinded. Papers should neither have been published elsewhere nor being currently under review by another conference or journal. EDITORIAL FOLLOW-UPS -------------------- Extended versions of the selected workshop papers will be considered for possible fast track publication on the Computer Communications Journal (Elsevier), in a special section on Challenged Networks. IMPORTANT DATES --------------- - Submission Deadline (extended): 23 June 2016 - Acceptance Notification: 22 July 2016 - Camera Ready Due: 5 August 2016 - Workshop: 7 October 2016 PROGRAM COMMITTEE CHAIRS ------------------------ Chiara Boldrini (IIT-CNR, Italy) Marcelo Dias de Amorim (UPMC and CNRS, France) TECHNICAL PROGRAM COMMITTEE --------------------------- Kevin Almeroth (UC-Santa Barbara, USA) Mostafa Ammar (Georgia Institute of Technology, USA) Fehmi Ben Abdesslem (SICS Swedish ICT, Sweden) Guohong Cao (The Pennsylvania State University, USA) Marco Cello (Nokia Bell Labs) Vania Conan (Thales Communications & Security, France) Luis Costa (Universidade Federal do Rio de Janeiro, Brazil) Do Young Eun (North Carolina State University, USA) Kevin Fall (Carnegie Mellon University, USA) Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) Domenico Giustiniano (IMDEA Networks Institute, Spain) Tristan Henderson (University of St Andrews, UK) Andrea Hess (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) Pan Hui (Hong Kong Unive. of Science and Technology) Karin Anna Hummel (JKU Linz, Austria) Mohan Kumar (Rochester Institute of Technology, USA) Kyunghan Lee (UNIST, Korea) Anders Lindgren (SICS Swedish ICT, Sweden) Mirco Musolesi (University College London, UK) Katia Obraczka (UC Santa Cruz, USA) Melek Onen (Eurecom, France) Joerg Ott (Technische Universitat Munchen, Germany) Elena Pagani (Universita degli Studi di Milano, Italy) Andrea Passarella (IIT-CNR, Italy) Eric Rozner (IBM Research, USA) Pavlos Sermpezis (FORTH, Greece) Thrasyvoulos Spyropoulos (Eurecom, France) Stavros Toumpis (Athens University of Economics and Business, Greece) Thierry Turletti (INRIA, France) Yu Wang (University of North Carolina at Charlotte, USA) Eiko Yoneki (University of Cambridge, UK) Xiaolan Zhang (Fordham University, USA) WEB CHAIR --------- Fehmi Ben Abdesslem (SICS Swedish ICT, Sweden) PUBLICITY CHAIR --------------- Elisabetta Biondi (IIT-CNR, Italy) STEERING COMMITTEE ------------------ Kevin Almeroth (UC Santa Barbara, USA) Kevin Fall (Carnegie Mellon University, USA) Stephen Farrell (Trinity College Dublin, Ireland) Jorg Ott (Technische Universitat Munchen, Germany) Andrea Passarella (IIT-CNR, Italy) From nobody Tue Jun 21 08:19:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC59012D95F for ; 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Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:19:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.39.73 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 08:19:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin Dean Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:19:28 -0400 Message-ID: To: "manet@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e59d0d9c8bc0535cb5802 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] OLSR Sec threats comments X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:19:31 -0000 --001a114e59d0d9c8bc0535cb5802 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 We have issued a last call on OLSR sec threats but haven't had any feedback from the list (unless I missed something.) We will be moving this draft forward tonight unless someone has something critical to say. Please take a look at the draft and post comments ASAP even if they are not show stopping; the more eyes on the document and the more comments the better the MANET drafts will be. Justin --001a114e59d0d9c8bc0535cb5802 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We have issued a last call on OLSR sec threats but haven&#= 39;t had any feedback from the list (unless I missed something.) =C2=A0We w= ill be moving this draft forward tonight unless someone has something criti= cal to say.=C2=A0 Please take a look at the draft and post comments ASAP ev= en if they are not show stopping; the more eyes on the document and the mor= e comments the better the MANET drafts will be.

Justin
--001a114e59d0d9c8bc0535cb5802-- From nobody Tue Jun 21 11:37:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E652112D5D7; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:37:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YyoM7Z7hi_Nr; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33C9512D81D; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 11:37:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=22666; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466534267; x=1467743867; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:mime-version; bh=RmdOOVh+NV2CDFx4GxzZFX9t190GycIkaf2aWWCsT3o=; b=MnCdGkPJGWkOotr8E0FRE9XEugQHhtmwVgCGSCrDVBaF5g7xY04CITV0 OSZNGuOcDqe3SU7yTtS6CIE9unpYGy7PW8i+h2k0zjLq4gZRnUpfo6SE+ DIUenSSGvE05xt14gCl6Ji58P4WuN2xUuvAKhC+V8JpN0Vtt1xeikXLOu Q=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D0AQB2iGlX/4kNJK1dgnBOgVm6b4F6h?= =?us-ascii?q?heBOTgUAQEBAQEBAWUcC4RSeRIBgQAXAQ8EDog1wk0BAQEBAQUBAQEBAQEBIIY?= =?us-ascii?q?njmgFiAkThwuEIYUxAYh/hSyBaYRTiGeGUYkmAR42gggcgUyKN38BAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,505,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="288388657" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 21 Jun 2016 18:37:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (xch-rcd-004.cisco.com [173.37.102.14]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5LIbjZ2008997 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:37:45 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (173.37.102.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:37:45 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 13:37:45 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 Thread-Index: AQHRy+wAa7+0C+fEHkOeHxNkPsT4mg== Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:37:45 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3874F5312E5F6aretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: [manet] AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:37:54 -0000 --_000_D3874F5312E5F6aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stan: Hi! How are you? I just finished reading this document. First of all, thanks for taking thi= s work on! Please see my comments below. I think many of the comments (even the Major= ones) should be easy to address. However, I am specially concerned about = the actions (terminate) to be taken in some of the cases =97 which, I think= , make DLEP vulnerable. After you address the Major comments and provide a revised ID, I will want = to get a review from the Transport Area, probably in parallel with the IETF= Last Call (depending on where we are with the DLEP document). Thanks! Alvaro. Major: M1. "Credit Use Rejected" Status. When should this Status be used? I'm gu= essing that maybe windowing is not supported (the router understands the fe= ature, but doesn't support it) -- what else? I suspect that it is up to th= e receiver to use this status as it sees fit, is that the intent? If so, p= lease clearly say so. Are there any well-known reasons that might be benef= icial to mention? M2. Both Sections 8.1. (DLEP Destination Up Message) and 8.2. (DLEP Destina= tion Announce Message) say that "MUST use the value in Credit Grant as the = initial value=85". But given that the credit use can be rejected, the "MUS= T" is misleading. s/MUST/SHOULD or clarify "=85if accepted=85" M3. It is not a requirement that Credit Windows be always implemented in bo= th directions, right? M3.1. Sections 5. (Operation), 8.3. (DLEP Destination Up Response Message) = and 8.4. (DLEP Destination Announce Response Message) all say that after re= ceiving a Credit Grant data item "the receiver MUST respond=85with a respon= se message that contains a Credit Grant data item". However, Section 9.1. = (Credit Grant) says that "the receiver MUST respond with a message containi= ng a Credit Window Status data item", which seems to be the right thing. M3.2. It seems to me that (in 8.3 and 8.4) this text should also talk about= the Credit Window Status data item: M3.2.1. (in the response): "=85if the corresponding=85message did not conta= in a Credit Grant=85Response message MUST NOT contain a Credit Grant (Secti= on 9.1) data item". M3.2.2. "receiver of=85Response MUST use the received Credit Grant value to= initialize=85". M3.3. Related to this point, Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) says that the "Cre= dit Grant data item MAY appear in the DLEP Destination Up, Destination Anno= unce, and Destination Update messages." No response messages are listed, = which is ok. I would suggest you stress that those are the only messages w= hich can contain the data item. Either s/MAY/MAY only, or (even better) s/= MAY/MUST only [I think the "MUST" is ok because the Operation section alr= eady talks about not every destination needing credit windowing.] M4. Credit Window Out of Sync status code. Both 8.3 and 8.4 say that if a = peer "detects a mismatch in the presence or absence of credit window data i= tems=85MUST terminate the session". M4.1. Section 7. (DLEP Status Codes for Credit-Window Extension) says lists= the failure mode as "Continue". Please correct that and make sure that th= e registration request explicitly tells IANA which range to assign the stat= us codes from. M4.2. It seems to me that using a "terminate" failure mode may be overkill.= It also seems to me that it would be straight forward to require a Credit= Grant data item to be sent after receiving this status code and let the se= ssion resync on its own (or send a Credit Grant if the lack of sync is dete= cted locally) =97 it looks like the potential impact of resetting the sessi= on may not be justified for a single stream. I note in the DLEP spec that = even refusing to do something (Request Denied) has a failure mode of Contin= ue. M5. Section 9.2. (Credit Window Status) says that if the "local credit coun= ts are not synchronized=85MAY either=85or o Issue a DLEP Destination Down m= essage, to clear credit counts on the session." M5.1. [nit] was this intended to be a bulleted list? M5.2. The "MAY" indicates that both actions are optional. IOW, it says tha= t neither action has to be performed. If that is so, then how do we get th= e session back in sync? M5.3. That second option (Destination Down) could also result in the routin= g protocol (or anyone else listening to DLEP) to reset their adjacency. As= I mentioned above, this action seems to be too drastic because of the effe= ct. Or am I missing something? M5.4. Going back to the "MAY either" part. When (Why) would an implementat= ion chose not to use the least intrusive option? M5.5. Given the potential problems with falling out to sync, why is this se= ction not more prescriptive: "It is recommended that implementations issue = a DLEP Destination Update with a Credit Window Status data item at a config= urable multiple of the DLEP Heartbeat timer=85" Maybe s/recommended/RECOMM= ENDED M6. Section 9.3. (Credit Request) M6.1. "If the corresponding=85message for this session did not contain a Cr= edit Grant data item=85then receipt of the Credit Request data item MUST be= considered as an error by the receiver, requiring termination of the DLEP = peer session." Same comment as before; very disruptive! M6.2. There's no guidance as to what should be done when receiving a Credit= Request. M7. Section 10. (Security Considerations) M7.1. "The extension does not introduce any additional threats above those = documented in [DLEP]." I disagree. The extra opportunities to reset the D= LEP session create a potential DoS attack: a peer can (for example) send a = Credit Request for any destination not using credits and the whole session = is reset, potentially affecting other flows. M7.2. "The mitigation strategy documented in that document is sufficient to= secure operation of this extension." Neither "mitigation" nor "strategy" = show up in the DLEP document =97 you'll have to be more specific. Minor: p1. For ease of tracking, please number the TBD values (for example TBD1, T= BD2, etc.) throughout the document to match the requests to IANA. p2. Section 6 is superfluous, please delete it. p3. "Descriptions of the data items are included below." Please put a refe= rence. p4. The format in Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) shows two "Credit Increment" = fields. From the explanation which indicates a "64-bit quantity), I'm assu= ming that these are really not 2 independent fields, but one big (64-bits) = "Credit Increment" field. Please fix the figure. P4.1. The MRW/RRW in the figure in Section 9.2 have the same problem. p5. I don't think the reference to RFC5578 is needed. Pointing to another = scheme may create confusion. Nits: n1. Please expand on first mention: DLEP (in the abstract), RF. n2. s/Dynamic Link Event Protocol/Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol n3. s/draft/document n4. Change the order of the sections putting "Credit Window Data Item Defin= itions" before "DLEP Data Items for Credit-Window Extension". --_000_D3874F5312E5F6aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Stan:

Hi!  How are you?

I just finished reading this document.  First of all, thanks for takin= g this work on!

Please see my comments below.  I think many of the comments (even the = Major ones) should be easy to address.  However, I am specially concer= ned about the actions (terminate) to be taken in some of the cases =97 whic= h, I think, make DLEP vulnerable.

After you address the Major comments and provide a revised ID, I will want = to get a review from the Transport Area, probably in parallel with the IETF= Last Call (depending on where we are with the DLEP document).

Thanks!

Alvaro.


Major:

M1. "Credit Use Rejected" Status.  When should this Status b= e used?  I'm guessing that maybe windowing is not supported (the route= r understands the feature, but doesn't support it) -- what else?  I su= spect that it is up to the receiver to use this status as it sees fit, is that the intent?  If so, please clearly say so.  = ;Are there any well-known reasons that might be beneficial to mention?


M2. Both Sections 8.1. (= DLEP Destination Up Message) and 8.2. (DLEP Destination Announce Messa= ge) say that "MUST use the value in Credit Grant as the initial value=85".  But given t= hat the credit use can be rejected, the "MUST" is misleading. &nb= sp;s/MUST/SHOULD or clarify "= =85if accepted=85"


M3. It is not a requirement that Cre= dit Windows be always implemented in both directions, right? 

M3.1. Sections 5. (Operation),&= nbsp;8.3. (DLEP Destination Up Response Message) and 8.4. (DLEP Destination= Announce Response Message) all say that after receiving a Credit Gran= t data item "the receiver MUST respond=85with a response message that contains a Credit Grant data item".  However, Secti= on 9.1. (Credit Grant) says that "the receiver MUST respond with = a message containing a Credit Window Status data item", which seems to= be the right thing.

M3.2. It seems to me that (in 8.3 an= d 8.4) this text should also talk about the Credit Window Status data item:=
M3.2.1. (in the response): "=85if the corresponding=85messag= e did not contain a Credit Gr= ant=85Response M3.2.2. "receiver of=85Response= MUST use the received Credit Grant value to initialize=85".

M3.3. Related to this point, Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) says tha= t the "Credit Grant data item MAY appear in the DLEP Destination Up, D= estination Announce, and Destination Update messages."  No  = response messages are listed, which is ok.  I would suggest you stress that those are the only messages which can contain the data ite= m.  Either s/MAY/MAY only, or (even better) s/MAY/MUST only   [I = think the "MUST" is ok because the Operation section already talk= s about not every destination needing credit windowing.]


M4. Credit Window Out of Sync status= code.  Both 8.3 and 8.4 say that if a peer "detects a mismatch in the presence o= r absence of credit window data items=85MUST t= erminate the session".

M4.1. Section 7. (DLEP Status Codes for Credit-Window Extension) = says lists the failure mode as "Continue".  Please correct t= hat and make sure that the registration request explicitly tells IANA which range to assign the status codes from.

M4.2. It seems to me that using a "terminate" failure mode m= ay be overkill.  It also seems to me that it would be straight forward= to require a Credit Grant data item to be sent after receiving this status= code and let the session resync on its own (or send a Credit Grant if the lack of sync is detected locally) =97 it looks = like the potential impact of resetting the session may not be justified for= a single stream.  I note in the DLEP spec that even refusing to do so= mething (Request Denied) has a failure mode of Continue.


M5. Section 9.2. (Credit Window= Status) says that if the "local credit counts are not synchronized=85MAY either=85or o Issue a DLEP Destin= ation Down me= ssage, to clear credit counts on the session."

M5.1. [nit] was this intended t= o be a bulleted list?

M5.2. The "MAY" indicates that both actions are optional. &n= bsp;IOW, it says that neither action has to be performed.  If that is = so, then how do we get the session back in sync?

M5.3. That second option (Destination Down) could also result in the r= outing protocol (or anyone else listening to DLEP) to reset their adjacency= .  As I mentioned above, this action seems to be too drastic because o= f the effect.  Or am I missing something?

M5.4. Going back to the "MAY either" part.  When (Why) = would an implementation chose not to use the least intrusive option?

M5.5. Given the potential problems w= ith falling out to sync, why is this section not more prescriptive: "<= /font>It is recommended that implementations issue a DLEP Destination = Update with a Credit Window Status data item at a configurable multiple of the D= LEP Heartbeat timer=85"  = ;Maybe s/recommended/RECOMMENDED


M6. Section 9.3. (Credit Request) 

M6.1. "If the corresponding=85message for this session did not contain a Credit Grant data item=85then receipt of the Credit Request data item MUST be considered as an error by the receiver, requirin= g termination of the DLEP peer session."  Same comment as before;= very disruptive!

M6.2. There's no guidance as to what should be done when receiving a C= redit Request.


M7. Section 10. (Security Considerations)

M7.1. "The extension does not introduce any additional threats= above those documented in [DLEP]."  I disagree.  The extra opportunities to reset = the DLEP session create a potential DoS attack: a peer can (for exampl= e) send a Credit Request for any destination not using credits and the whol= e session is reset, potentially affecting other flows.

M7.2. "The mitigation strategy documented in that document is suf= ficient to secure operation o= f this extension."  Neither "mitigation" nor "stra= tegy" show up in the DLEP document =97 you'll have to be more specific= .



Minor:

p1. For ease of tracking, please number the TBD values (for example TB= D1, TBD2, etc.) throughout the document to match the requests to IANA.

p2. Section 6 is superfluous, please delete it.

p3. "Descriptions of the data items are included below." &nb= sp;Please put a reference.

p4. The format in Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) sho= ws two "Credit Increment"= ; fields.  From the explanation which indicates a "64-bit quantity), I'm assuming that these are really not 2 independent field= s, but one big (64-bits) "Cre= dit Increment" field.  Please fix the figure.
P4.1. The MRW/RRW in the figure in S= ection 9.2 have the same problem.

p5. I don't think the reference to R= FC5578 is needed.  Pointing to another scheme may create confusion.



Nits:

n1. Please expand on first mention: DLEP (in the abstract), RF.

n2. s/Dynamic Link Event Protocol/Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol

n3. s/draft/document

n4. Change the order of the sections putting "Credit Window Data = Item Definitions" before "DLEP Data Items for Credit-Window Exten= sion".
--_000_D3874F5312E5F6aretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Tue Jun 21 14:23:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B19F512DA09 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tnSvD-pnLpOO for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22b.google.com (mail-lf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 134C612DE1D for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id q132so44327982lfe.3 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:23:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=Pt5QDwVWvQFYZ/p+c2yD0uw/276GfEFdqH21rK8p8T4=; b=JilpDEPTJ8tEY/15JZjvABcLMRpov8FRvkhwY+AT5NBzyVnMI33hoxx45xdz1Zx1GH Q9TprWGtvwkGQj2y0i4mYZvqnpaVqSpy+Ip6uKCYSL61vjzVAvgB1PRiHrAL4S60bqH7 wym30G0RTpsiOotcXDt4bVJxPNM+WRNcx0L8daFKBrNWNxz49zGeUwU76RoJN7vRxzSx jJgwSZMA0kMM/eTk66lvM+3/yhCKgLir5C6+cQW5bl9JpKuyCs+a9Lq7J6+UngNekCz5 L1n1peck4t4zUWs179Ur2Tw8TGDuFA/uQI1hXR4IjuJ1J0fOz/jc3tzb+b/cP54vvpOk HEmQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Pt5QDwVWvQFYZ/p+c2yD0uw/276GfEFdqH21rK8p8T4=; b=OBQC0l93DcZ8Tt33ny8jIQGk/LQG6ITpKpDhmRsb9W3LNZ2QK+Q4tPbLwUK7qs0aNH Shor4uizCfdhC8YBAFlT8hGSUnWdmP+Eg79v5qt42o1ijUAYt3eO7ZilDL3YkY/ODOsL LbIYBEtLAIZRAqcVBXXjtioi8FD2NDdlOv6H7jKWIjZzJZQSmtvXODgtnqWGj7+cdO+n 8iXkVzpfGEvZmM0OjSkLdH0v1UZcz5T2Opy+Z8LJLOlJnKo1xKopysrEBXLktNDH/hKa 48CplOoubbM7qAbHVWT+CFKxivbCP0T691OMgFS9MRzuub4dpl9S8SUBvMeItdEYqiYX U1Jw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tK8/GLA3+dm8unD04nRw4RpHCY595SUU6aH5/mq2yFPT/QnhoHizxskgx6MC3FmaF7C6cetzU5TXOuvKQ== X-Received: by 10.46.0.225 with SMTP id e94mr7197851lji.58.1466544219806; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:23:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.231 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:23:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:23:38 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ckBK1Dgv2_ltisiuKGO6k6d_l3A Message-ID: To: Christopher Dearlove Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142c52e44e0610535d06f15 Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:23:46 -0000 --001a1142c52e44e0610535d06f15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We will add some text to make it more precise. best Jiazi On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Christopher Dearlove < christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > "Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, only > applicable to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal. > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > > On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI wrote: > > Hi, > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > >> Comments below. >> >> >> >> Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down to one >> sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation o= f, >> the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Tak= e a >> look at what you do in your implementation - now see if someone could wo= rk >> out to do that from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can. >> >> >> > > we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed reply below= . > > > >> >> Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? >> >> >> >> Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks >> are transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks"= is >> less important. >> >> >> >> CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it helps with packet re-ordering. >> > > When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets and produce > several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those block= s > are forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. Because the encoded > blocks are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of > the same packet(s) doesn't really matter. > > >> >> >> >> >> Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low dat= a >> rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, = not >> the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. >> >> >> >> We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link >> capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated throughpu= t >> and load balancing. >> >> >> >> So what do you think of: >> >> >> >> MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding >> single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput a= nd >> load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. >> >> >> >> CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate links. The issues >> are ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if ther= e >> are underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issu= e >> if packets do not all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data r= ate >> networks as much as low data rate ones. >> >> >> > > It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low data rate > links. > > > > >> PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as= well >> (e.g Routing Set). >> >> >> >> Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already >> gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an >> additional field? It is not used anyways. >> >> >> >> CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2= as a >> suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99= d made a >> comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combi= ne with that >> > > Yes. we added some text on what "n" is. > > > >> A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry >> times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting = sets >> change. >> >> If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactive >> mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet fl= ow >> then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and implem= ent. >> >> >> >> The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6= . >> The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. = One >> of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which= no >> expiry timer is used. >> >> Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism as >> OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the >> multi-path routing set is updated. >> >> In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the >> "topology graph" is changed. The new tuples are recreated "on-demand". >> >> >> >> CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that in the reactive case. (Proactive= is easy, >> but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you ge= nerate it >> on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculat= e >> the set? >> > > No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set. > > >> If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and the >> set disappears and you need to trigger it again. >> > > Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required > is trivial, because this is only local: no additional message exchange wi= th > other routers is required. > > >> Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its start= . >> > > We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. For each > datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or not. There is = no > much difference from checking the FIB for IP. > > >> If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know >> when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops= . >> >> > And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is required= - some changes >> to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of= a >> link not being used). But it=E2=80=99s hard to specify. >> > > For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", because even > links that not used might matters: for example, the decrease in metric of= a > not used metric that introduces a better path. > It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and could be > optimised in the future, but considering it's a reactive approach, I > believe it's acceptable. > > On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indicate >> that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t matte= r is >> probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more import= ant >> - and needs text discussing it. >> > >> >> >> You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases >> while waiting. >> >> The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this >> protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP proce= ss, why >> mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? >> >> >> >> Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is >> olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course= , >> using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impac= t >> the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points a= lso: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> * Different path-selection schedulers. By default, Round-Robin >> scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams. In >> some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for example= , >> the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can transfer m= ore >> datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics.* >> >> >> >> CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s not the round-robin that mat= ters, >> it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do anything. That=E2=80=99s what needs not= to be buried. >> Putting together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section e= arly on, perhaps in >> the applicability section, is needed. >> >> >> > > We added the following text in the applicability statement: > > *MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path > calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive > calculation, the paths to all the destinations are calculated before > needed. In the reactive calculation, only the paths to desired > destination(s) are calculated on demand. The proactive approach requires > more computational resources than the reactive one. The reactive approach > requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-path calculation.* > > *MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there > are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP > forwarding plan to be able to choose which source route to be put in the > source routing header based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. F= or > IPv4 networks, implementation of loose source routing is required followi= ng > [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source routing is > required following [RFC6554].* > > As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed. > > regards > > Jiazi > > > > > > > --001a1142c52e44e0610535d06f15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We will add some text to make it more precise.=C2=A0
<= br>
best

Jiazi
<draft-iet= f-manet-olsrv2-multipath.txt>

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:02 AM= , Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
&q= uot;Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, onl= y applicable to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal.
-- =C2=A0
Christopher Dearlove
=
On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

Hi,=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlo= ve, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Comments below.

=C2=A0

Short version, still some points I think can= be improved. Down to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle chan= ges to, and cessation of, the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look at wha= t you do in your implementation - now see if someone could work out to do t= hat from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can.

=

=C2=A0

<= /blockquote>

we clarified this in the draft. Please chec= k the our detailed reply below.=C2=A0

<snip>= =C2=A0


Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?=

=C2=A0

Normally, the packets are coded in different "b= locks" and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The arrivi= ng order of those "blocks" is less important.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how= it helps with packet re-ordering.

=

When FEC is applied, the encod= er takes one or several packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted b= lock-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams i= n the disjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the= arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) doesn't rea= lly matter.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<snip>

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with chara= cterising as low data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity = by a small factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

=C2=A0

We won't claim that there will be orders of magn= itude that link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggrega= ted throughput and load balancing.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So what do you think of:

=C2=A0

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topo= logy by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregate= d throughput and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate link= s. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> Still not convinced by the ph= rase low data rate links. The issues are ones of load relative to network c= apacity, and in particular if there are underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if packets do not = all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate networks as much = as low data rate ones.

=C2=A0


It makes sense. I'm OK with rem= oving the text related to low data rate links.=C2=A0

<snip>
=C2=A0

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewher= e in OLSRv2 we record that as well (e.g Routing Set).

=C2=A0

Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_ad= dress[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the i= nformation with an additional field? It is not used anyways.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could= be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some= tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d made a comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combine with that


Yes. we added some text on what "n" is.=C2=A0
=C2= =A0
<snip>

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry times= . If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting sets cha= nge.=C2=A0

If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I d= islike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If depen= dent on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to docu= ment - and implement.

=C2=A0

The update of the the Multi-path routing set is desc= ribed in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the = comments received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 r= outing set, in which no expiry timer is used.=C2=A0

Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows th= e same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 = routing set, the multi-path routing set is updated.=C2=A0

In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples = are removed when the "topology graph" is changed.=C2=A0 The new t= uples are recreated "on-demand".=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about= that in the reactive case. (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, wh= ich it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set?


No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set= .=C2=A0
=C2=A0

If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing an= d the set disappears and you need to trigger it again.


Yes, it n= ecessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required is trivial= , because this is only local: no additional message exchange with other rou= ters is required.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow,= not just at its start.


We don't actually have the concept "flow&qu= ot; in this extension. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check = if a tuple exist or not. There is no much difference from checking the FIB = for IP.=C2=A0
=C2=A0

If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how d= o you know when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the fl= ow stops.=C2=A0

<= div>

And =E2=80=9Ct= he Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is required - some changes = to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a link not being used). But = it=E2=80=99s hard to specify.


For the moment, we simply take &qu= ot;the topology graph changes", because even links that not used might= matters: for example, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that int= roduces a better path. =C2=A0
It's true that it's possibl= e that it's more than required and could be optimised in the future, bu= t considering it's a reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable.= =C2=A0

On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indi= cate that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t mat= ter is probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more important - and needs text d= iscussing it.=C2=A0

<= /u>

=C2=A0


You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while = waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this prot= ocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why= mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

=C2=A0

Choosing which path to put in the source routing hea= der is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of co= urse, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won'= t impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points also:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0Different path-selection schedulers.=C2=A0 = By default, Round-Robin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scheduling is used to select a path to be used for dat= agrams.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered:= for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher qu= ality) can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher = metrics.

=C2=A0

CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80= =99s not the round-robin that matters, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do any= thing. That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, perhaps in= the applicability section, is needed.

=C2=A0


We added the followi= ng text in the applicability statement:

MP= -OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation ap= proaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths t= o all the destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive calcul= ation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. T= he proactive approach requires more computational resources than the reacti= ve one. The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger th= e multi-path calculation.

MP-OLSRv2 = forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there are multiple p= aths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding plan to be a= ble to choose which source route to be put in the source routing header bas= ed on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, implement= ation of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 net= works, implementation of strict source routing is required following [RFC65= 54].

As usual, an updated draft is attac= hed, in case needed.=C2=A0

regards

<= /div>
Jiazi


=C2=A0
<= /div>

--001a1142c52e44e0610535d06f15-- From nobody Tue Jun 21 15:46:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC3C12DA85 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:46:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RuDu5zWlKy5O for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy5-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [67.222.38.55]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2764412DE9C for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 15:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 14609 invoked by uid 0); 21 Jun 2016 22:46:40 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO CMOut01) (10.0.90.82) by gproxy5.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 21 Jun 2016 22:46:40 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by CMOut01 with id 9amb1t00t2SSUrH01ameCD; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:46:38 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=OPe0g0qB c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=pD_ry4oyNxEA:10 a=mTOx1OXKxrNHJ8I6_GcA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Date: Message-ID:Subject:From:To; bh=YPrx3fZiaQ1t2ePA9R2XimjDeceuz66viLclhGtVpd4=; b=19Ccm28kMPIYBbjfUYUwis6qtZIvImoJSe4HSXVtKYGsGm4kRvEFjc7CxRY0BkSKSHmbeeQVNq PTiEFkmEnw6L5Rjwv6oUvkf2vXJBJrIwKjCIKF2kMq3TtYxjxEtd4f; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:55648 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bFURI-0002tX-RX; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:46:36 -0600 To: "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , MANET IETF From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:46:31 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 22:46:43 -0000 Hi, Please excuse me if we already covered this ground and have forgotten the answers. I have two questions on DLEP: 1) How does a router correlate a received Destination Announce Response Message (sent by a modem) to its Destination Announce Message? - A possible answer is it, doesn't; but then why have a Status data item? 2) Shouldn't a Destination Announce Response Message include the same optional parameters as a Destination Up message? (Notably absent are IP addresses and subnets). - If omission is intentional, how does router provide reachable address and prefix information? (A required subsequent Update? - yuch!) Thanks, Lou From nobody Tue Jun 21 16:56:06 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E54212D85C; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:56:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MMorbluexWDO; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp1.idirect.net (smtp1.idirect.net [198.180.159.61]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18A1612D84E; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 16:56:04 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,507,1459828800"; d="scan'208";a="6033875" IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3AR78HchCWEc9UNAKFxnF4UyQJP3N1i/DPJgcQr6Af?= =?us-ascii?q?oPdwSP/8pcbcNUDSrc9gkEXOFd2CrakV06yO6uu7AyQp2tWojjMrSNR0TRgLiM?= =?us-ascii?q?EbzUQLIfWuLgnFFsPsdDEwB89YVVVorDmROElRH9viNRWJ+iXhpQAbFhi3Dwdp?= =?us-ascii?q?POO9QteU1JXvkbjrsMaJKyxzxxODIppKZC2sqgvQssREyaBDEY0WjiXzn31TZu?= =?us-ascii?q?5NznlpL1/A1zz158O34YIxu38I46Fp34d6XK77Z6U1S6BDRHRjajhtpZ6jiR6W?= =?us-ascii?q?aQySrlERSGobiFIcBwLI9h73RL/1uyH88OxwxH/edYf6V7k6RXGj4rtlDRrhji?= =?us-ascii?q?obcjI9/Xn/i8FsguRcuh3r70hz2YfafMSUOeZwO6bUe94GAGZFU955ViFdDMW7?= =?us-ascii?q?dYRZS6IkFMB1k8Hcimcg5U+7DA+hGMvuxyNGwHjs0vtp/f4mFFSM5gU8G9MAvj?= =?us-ascii?q?Ccl8n8MqMfQKr9mLLSxCnHbv1Y8Tbx6ZLFeQxnp/yQC+EjOfHNwFUiQluWxm6b?= =?us-ascii?q?rpboanbMjrwA?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2CHAQD50mlX/8r6+gpdGwEBAYRzBo0kq0CCD4F6hhcCHIF?= =?us-ascii?q?TFAEBAQEBAQEBgQuCMYIaAQEBAQMjEVEEAgEIDgMEAQEDAiMDAgICMBQBCAgCB?= =?us-ascii?q?AESCLpHkEoBAQEBAQEBAwEBAQEBAQEBH4EBhSeETIdBgloFmHMGAY4kgXCEU4h?= =?us-ascii?q?nhlGJJx6EJm6JSX8BAQE?= From: "Ratliff, Stanley" To: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: DLEP question Thread-Index: AQHRzA7Nwoeuk5LAXEuopotE78FYX5/0lMGw Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:55:46 +0000 Message-ID: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.250.250.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 23:56:05 -0000 TG91LCANCg0KMS4gVGhlIHJlcXVlc3QvcmVzcG9uc2UgaXMgY29ycmVsYXRlZCwgc2luY2Ugb25s eSAxIHRyYW5zYWN0aW9uIGNhbiBiZSBvdXRzdGFuZGluZyAodGhlIHRyYW5zYWN0aW9uIG1vZGVs IGZpeGVzIGl0IGZvciB1cykuIA0KDQoyLiAgVGhlIEFubm91bmNlIG1lc3NhZ2UgZG9lcyBpbmNs dWRlIElQdjQgYW5kIElQdjYgQWRkcmVzcyBkYXRhIGl0ZW1zIChTZWN0aW9uIDkuMTMsIDV0aCBw YXJhZ3JhcGgpLiBZb3UgYXJlIGNvcnJlY3QgdGhhdCB0aGUgRGVzdCBBbm5vdW5jZSBkb2Vzbid0 IGN1cnJlbnRseSBpbmNsdWRlIHRoZSBJUHY0L0lQdjYgQXR0YWNoZWQgU3VibmV0IGRhdGEgaXRl bXMuIFRCSCwgSSBkb24ndCByZW1lbWJlciBpZiB0aGF0IHdhcyBpbnRlbnRpb25hbCBvciBub3Qg LSBJIGtub3cgdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gd2VudCBvbiBmb3IgYSBsb25nIHRpbWUgYWJvdXQgd2hl dGhlciB0aGUgYXR0YWNoZWQgc3VibmV0IFRMVnMgZWZmZWN0aXZlbHkgbWFkZSBETEVQIGEgcm91 dGluZyBwcm90b2NvbC4gSUlSQywgYmVjYXVzZSBvZiB0aGF0LCB0aGVyZSB3ZXJlIGl0ZXJhdGlv bnMgd2hlcmUgdGhlIEF0dGFjaGVkIFN1Ym5ldCBpdGVtcyB3ZXJlIGluY2x1ZGVkLCBhbmQgb25l cyB3aGVyZSBpdCB3YXMgcmVtb3ZlZC4gSSBqdXN0IGRvbid0IHJlbWVtYmVyIHdoZXJlIHdlIGZp bmFsbHkgbGFuZGVkLiBBcyBmb3IgYWxsb3dpbmcgb3RoZXIgZGF0YSBpdGVtcyBvbiBEZXN0aW5h dGlvbiBBbm5vdW5jZSAobGlrZSB0aGUgc2FtZSBkYXRhIGl0ZW1zIHRoYXQgYXJlIG9uIERlc3Rp bmF0aW9uIFVwL0Rlc3RpbmF0aW9uIFVwZGF0ZSksIHRoZSByYXRpb25hbGUgd2FzIHRoYXQgYWxs b3dpbmcgYSByb3V0ZXIgdG8gc2VuZCBtZXRyaWNzICp0byogdGhlIG1vZGVtIGRpZG4ndCBtYWtl IGEgd2hvbGUgbG90IG9mIHNlbnNlIC0gbm8gb25lIHdhcyBzdXJlIHdoYXQgdGhlIG1vZGVtIHdv dWxkIGRvIHdpdGggdGhvc2UgbWV0cmljcy4gDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsDQpTdGFuDQoNCg0KPiAtLS0t LU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KPiBGcm9tOiBMb3UgQmVyZ2VyIFttYWlsdG86bGJlcmdl ckBsYWJuLm5ldF0NCj4gU2VudDogVHVlc2RheSwgSnVuZSAyMSwgMjAxNiA2OjQ3IFBNDQo+IFRv OiBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW1hbmV0LWRsZXBAaWV0Zi5vcmc7IE1BTkVUIElFVEYgPG1hbmV0QGlldGYu b3JnPg0KPiBTdWJqZWN0OiBETEVQIHF1ZXN0aW9uDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gSGksDQo+IA0KPiAgICAg UGxlYXNlIGV4Y3VzZSBtZSBpZiB3ZSBhbHJlYWR5IGNvdmVyZWQgdGhpcyBncm91bmQgYW5kIGhh dmUgZm9yZ290dGVuDQo+IHRoZSBhbnN3ZXJzLiAgSSBoYXZlIHR3byBxdWVzdGlvbnMgb24gRExF UDoNCj4gDQo+IDEpIEhvdyBkb2VzIGEgcm91dGVyIGNvcnJlbGF0ZSBhIHJlY2VpdmVkIERlc3Rp bmF0aW9uIEFubm91bmNlIFJlc3BvbnNlDQo+IE1lc3NhZ2UgKHNlbnQgYnkgYSBtb2RlbSkgdG8g aXRzIERlc3RpbmF0aW9uIEFubm91bmNlIE1lc3NhZ2U/DQo+IA0KPiAtIEEgcG9zc2libGUgYW5z d2VyIGlzIGl0LCBkb2Vzbid0OyBidXQgdGhlbiB3aHkgaGF2ZSBhIFN0YXR1cyBkYXRhIGl0ZW0/ DQo+IA0KPiAyKSBTaG91bGRuJ3QgYSBEZXN0aW5hdGlvbiBBbm5vdW5jZSBSZXNwb25zZSBNZXNz YWdlIGluY2x1ZGUgdGhlIHNhbWUNCj4gb3B0aW9uYWwgcGFyYW1ldGVycyBhcyBhIERlc3RpbmF0 aW9uIFVwIG1lc3NhZ2U/IChOb3RhYmx5IGFic2VudCBhcmUgSVANCj4gYWRkcmVzc2VzIGFuZCBz dWJuZXRzKS4NCj4gDQo+IC0gSWYgb21pc3Npb24gaXMgaW50ZW50aW9uYWwsIGhvdyBkb2VzIHJv dXRlciBwcm92aWRlIHJlYWNoYWJsZSBhZGRyZXNzIGFuZA0KPiBwcmVmaXggaW5mb3JtYXRpb24/ IChBIHJlcXVpcmVkIHN1YnNlcXVlbnQgVXBkYXRlPyAtIHl1Y2ghKQ0KPiANCj4gVGhhbmtzLA0K PiANCj4gTG91DQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQoNCgpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXwpUaGlzIGVsZWN0cm9uaWMgbWVzc2FnZSBhbmQgYW55IGZp bGVzIHRyYW5zbWl0dGVkIHdpdGggaXQgY29udGFpbnMKaW5mb3JtYXRpb24gZnJvbSBpRGlyZWN0 LCB3aGljaCBtYXkgYmUgcHJpdmlsZWdlZCwgcHJvcHJpZXRhcnkKYW5kL29yIGNvbmZpZGVudGlh bC4gSXQgaXMgaW50ZW5kZWQgc29sZWx5IGZvciB0aGUgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBpbmRpdmlkdWFsCm9y IGVudGl0eSB0byB3aG9tIHRoZXkgYXJlIGFkZHJlc3NlZC4gSWYgeW91IGFyZSBub3QgdGhlIG9y aWdpbmFsCnJlY2lwaWVudCBvciB0aGUgcGVyc29uIHJlc3BvbnNpYmxlIGZvciBkZWxpdmVyaW5n IHRoZSBlbWFpbCB0byB0aGUKaW50ZW5kZWQgcmVjaXBpZW50LCBiZSBhZHZpc2VkIHRoYXQgeW91 IGhhdmUgcmVjZWl2ZWQgdGhpcyBlbWFpbAppbiBlcnJvciwgYW5kIHRoYXQgYW55IHVzZSwgZGlz c2VtaW5hdGlvbiwgZm9yd2FyZGluZywgcHJpbnRpbmcsIG9yCmNvcHlpbmcgb2YgdGhpcyBlbWFp bCBpcyBzdHJpY3RseSBwcm9oaWJpdGVkLiBJZiB5b3UgcmVjZWl2ZWQgdGhpcyBlbWFpbAppbiBl cnJvciwgcGxlYXNlIGRlbGV0ZSBpdCBhbmQgaW1tZWRpYXRlbHkgbm90aWZ5IHRoZSBzZW5kZXIu Cl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCg== From nobody Tue Jun 21 17:26:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2381612DEC0 for ; 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Tue, 21 Jun 2016 18:26:28 -0600 To: "Ratliff, Stanley" , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , MANET IETF References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:26:22 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 00:26:37 -0000 Hi Stan, Thanks for the quick response. On 6/21/2016 7:55 PM, Ratliff, Stanley wrote: > Lou, > > 1. The request/response is correlated, since only 1 transaction can be outstanding (the transaction model fixes it for us). umm, the doc says: Only one request per destination may be in progress at a time per session. As a Destination Announce Message relates to a single destination, can't an implementation send multiple of these in parallel? If not, where does the document say this? > > 2. The Announce message does include IPv4 and IPv6 Address data items (Section 9.13, 5th paragraph). You are correct that the Dest Announce doesn't currently include the IPv4/IPv6 Attached Subnet data items. My question what the router sends, i.e., the Destination Announce Response Message. > TBH, I don't remember if that was intentional or not - I know the discussion went on for a long time about whether the attached subnet TLVs effectively made DLEP a routing protocol. IIRC, because of that, there were iterations where the Attached Subnet items were included, and ones where it was removed. I just don't remember where we finally landed. As for allowing other data items on Destination Announce (like the same data items that are on Destination Up/Destination Update), the rationale was that allowing a router to send metrics *to* the modem didn't make a whole lot of sense - no one was sure what the modem would do with those metrics. Again, I'm asking about what the modem sends the router and the difference in the information provided based on which initiates the "destination". In modem initiated, the up includes IP address & prefix, plus metrics; while in the Destination Announce Response Message only metrics are provided -- yet the same action is expected, i.e.,: the router should add knowledge of the available destination to its information base. If the same action is expected for the Up and the response, shouldn't the same info be available? Thanks, Lou PS If so, this is a minor doc fix IMO... > > Regards, > Stan > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 6:47 PM >> To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org; MANET IETF >> Subject: DLEP question >> >> >> Hi, >> >> Please excuse me if we already covered this ground and have forgotten >> the answers. I have two questions on DLEP: >> >> 1) How does a router correlate a received Destination Announce Response >> Message (sent by a modem) to its Destination Announce Message? >> >> - A possible answer is it, doesn't; but then why have a Status data item? >> >> 2) Shouldn't a Destination Announce Response Message include the same >> optional parameters as a Destination Up message? (Notably absent are IP >> addresses and subnets). >> >> - If omission is intentional, how does router provide reachable address and >> prefix information? (A required subsequent Update? - yuch!) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lou >> >> >> > > _____________________________________________________ > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary > and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual > or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email > in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email > in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. > _____________________________________________________ From nobody Tue Jun 21 17:35:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECE012DAAF; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:35:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFCxaxtc5iOp; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.idirect.net (smtp2.idirect.net [198.180.159.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 023C412D822; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 17:35:10 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,507,1459828800"; d="scan'208";a="1320783" IronPort-PHdr: =?us-ascii?q?9a23=3Ah8AafhUpSH6ToIQ0DzMOzx4FMjjV8LGtZVwlr6E/?= =?us-ascii?q?grcLSJyIuqrYZxOFt8tkgFKBZ4jH8fUM07OQ6PG4HzRZqs3b+Fk5M7VyFDY9wf?= =?us-ascii?q?0MmAIhBMPXQWbaF9XNKxIAIcJZSVV+9Gu6O0UGUOz3ZlnVv2HgpWVKQka3CwN5?= =?us-ascii?q?K6zPF5LIiIzvjqbpqsWVO1wD32D1SIgxBSv1hD2ZjtMRj4pmJ/R54TryiVwMRd?= =?us-ascii?q?5rw3h1L0mYhRf265T41pdi9yNNp6BprJYYAu3SNp41Rr1ADTkgL3t9pIiy7UGC?= =?us-ascii?q?HkOz4S44VXheuBdSDAXfpEX+VJrrvSbgnu500i/cO8DqG/R8Ezi45ql3DR7llC?= =?us-ascii?q?lCMjc//X2Shsh9lIparQ6v4RtlzMScNI2PPfRiO6LQYd1fQGNHU9oUWyhMGqu9?= =?us-ascii?q?YpcBSe0bMrAc56zUgXYy5TqTOSfkUObmzDJUrn77waN81P4uR1LoxgslSpg0uW?= =?us-ascii?q?jQrdv7cO8pTemzyKTZh32XdOlfxTP85obgcxwgu/yHQfR2fNaHmhpnLB/MkljF?= =?us-ascii?q?8d+tBDiSzOlY9jHDt+c=3D?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2BNAQAR3GlX/8r6+gpdGgEBAQGEcwaNJKs/gg+BeoYXAhy?= =?us-ascii?q?BUxQBAQEBAQEBAYELgjKCGgEBAQECASMRUQQCAQgOAwQBAQECAiMDAgICMBQBC?= =?us-ascii?q?AgCBAESCIggshOQSgEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEegQGFJ4RMhBIRATMVglW?= =?us-ascii?q?CWgWYdgYBjiWBcIRTiGeGUYkpHoQmboktBwg2fwEBAQ?= From: "Ratliff, Stanley" To: Lou Berger , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: DLEP question Thread-Index: AQHRzA7Nwoeuk5LAXEuopotE78FYX5/0lMGwgABPlwD//73KwA== Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 00:35:07 +0000 Message-ID: <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.250.250.20] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org 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(TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bFXCp-0001CP-6f; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 19:43:51 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: "Ratliff, Stanley" , , MANET IETF Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:43:46 -0400 Message-ID: <15575c70850.2818.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.6.2.3 (build: 27000203) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 172.58.185.75 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 01:44:05 -0000 Stan, On June 21, 2016 8:35:34 PM "Ratliff, Stanley" wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] >> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 8:26 PM >> To: Ratliff, Stanley ; draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org; >> MANET IETF >> Subject: Re: DLEP question >> >> Hi Stan, >> >> Thanks for the quick response. >> >> >> On 6/21/2016 7:55 PM, Ratliff, Stanley wrote: >> > Lou, >> > >> > 1. The request/response is correlated, since only 1 transaction can be >> outstanding (the transaction model fixes it for us). >> umm, the doc says: >> >> Only one request per >> destination may be in progress at a time per session. >> >> As a Destination Announce Message relates to a single destination, can't an >> implementation send multiple of these in parallel? If not, where does the >> document say this? > > Fair point. The doc isn't clear on that topic. > >> >> > >> > 2. The Announce message does include IPv4 and IPv6 Address data items >> (Section 9.13, 5th paragraph). You are correct that the Dest Announce >> doesn't currently include the IPv4/IPv6 Attached Subnet data items. >> My question what the router sends, i.e., the Destination Announce >> Response Message. >> >> > TBH, I don't remember if that was intentional or not - I know the discussion >> went on for a long time about whether the attached subnet TLVs effectively >> made DLEP a routing protocol. IIRC, because of that, there were iterations >> where the Attached Subnet items were included, and ones where it was >> removed. I just don't remember where we finally landed. As for allowing >> other data items on Destination Announce (like the same data items that are >> on Destination Up/Destination Update), the rationale was that allowing a >> router to send metrics *to* the modem didn't make a whole lot of sense - no >> one was sure what the modem would do with those metrics. >> >> Again, I'm asking about what the modem sends the router and the >> difference in the information provided based on which initiates the >> "destination". In modem initiated, the up includes IP address & prefix, plus >> metrics; while in the Destination Announce Response Message only metrics >> are provided -- yet the same action is expected, i.e.,: >> >> the router should add knowledge of the available destination to its >> information base. >> >> >> If the same action is expected for the Up and the response, shouldn't the >> same info be available? > > Ahh, I understand now. Yes, I agree - metrics should be allowed on the > response. I'm still not clear on the Attached Subnet TLVs - if a router > says "I found the following destination", does it make sense for the modem > to respond "Yeah, and I've got the following subnets attached to it"? What > would a router do with a Destination Announce Response that has subnet info > attached to it? > Perhaps a misunderstanding the intent of the message, but I see the destination announce message as basically a query to trigger an up message. So I think a router would do the same thing that it does when it receives an up with a subnet. Am I missing something? Lou > Regards, > Stan > > > >> >> Thanks, >> >> Lou >> >> PS If so, this is a minor doc fix IMO... >> >> > >> > Regards, >> > Stan >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] >> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 6:47 PM >> >> To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org; MANET IETF >> >> Subject: DLEP question >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> Please excuse me if we already covered this ground and have >> >> forgotten the answers. I have two questions on DLEP: >> >> >> >> 1) How does a router correlate a received Destination Announce >> >> Response Message (sent by a modem) to its Destination Announce >> Message? >> >> >> >> - A possible answer is it, doesn't; but then why have a Status data item? >> >> >> >> 2) Shouldn't a Destination Announce Response Message include the same >> >> optional parameters as a Destination Up message? (Notably absent are >> >> IP addresses and subnets). >> >> >> >> - If omission is intentional, how does router provide reachable >> >> address and prefix information? (A required subsequent Update? - >> >> yuch!) >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> Lou >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _____________________________________________________ >> > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains >> > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary and/or >> > confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or >> > entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original >> > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the >> > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in >> > error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or >> > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this >> > email in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. >> > _____________________________________________________ >> >> > > > _____________________________________________________ > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary > and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual > or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email > in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email > in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. > _____________________________________________________ From nobody Tue Jun 21 21:21:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CC0412D1C7; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:21:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I2LIlgSCX94H; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AD55212D1AD; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:21:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id p10so49783147qke.3; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:21:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UBt/X5X5lnqNOnJ+ghbhjUA187okt4nrfzWL/Hn85KY=; b=bR6MUKqAAiym+OgIufZs8y0xgKl1SIRnMHpwl9tHlwAYdf9Hqk5JM48T0qVGbld/u4 fGP6H6qyAxElu1V7RTdxtXGSTF13TssanNH4SUgq/et6f+3gf/kXT99wZuYAX2dFDKkV tFUIN0lL5zoa7dT9oiIIvX7J9m3KOLkaaIiefJt86XDb/2udEDwlwMwYRyZYMdQEzQhm LvrF+43XObmsNY6JAU7+2zAty+nD1x6l9MUl4VIMqGIWX6gXWlu2hRFm0AR2OUiToGpx HGKB6NFHbTcYAznMwpnsk81vuLodF31n4z852OUoXkgSKVyqYDUT7kT9l4EZBCaEMsmj UcQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UBt/X5X5lnqNOnJ+ghbhjUA187okt4nrfzWL/Hn85KY=; b=iu1zkY+oUhwPkoEYKQZyew0KPeYqA2jo1zzzrBk2fqVxOyp8AtG1WI994evrPSTVEe hpqCQ3xA2sJorZ6CkmYIhyxZh8/Pfa/g57q3xF1MFMAP2OxPii32bXKWKzkiplwv6Ssh YMr+OFWnbWceAUX1xA+w6dUoGcRDe1jzY5XCQDvpGllr/xu1DdLPjJNSjIyBY/duooEl +o9THeE15fK03pBlcG1XXsCF3IGSge3nHMs/9lWly9gVq94673YE8f0l4PzC5IYvsNor 3nbFLV71fe78iUO2Q0XIITvv3AeGUYWTooS9VmZA6+1L7lblJ6Inzr29uYMOl8bW8LKk M1VQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLjAnVc18oN0msOSCR1oHSRyXSfoOc0/ZQjlcgGLICIn24qdfug5pQE0OiCYnKSoeipdr4Dbep1kR4HJA== X-Received: by 10.55.188.198 with SMTP id m189mr33371788qkf.205.1466569299588; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:21:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.51.131 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:21:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> From: Henning Rogge Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:21:10 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Ratliff, Stanley" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:21:42 -0000 On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 1:55 AM, Ratliff, Stanley wrote: > Lou, > > 1. The request/response is correlated, since only 1 transaction can be outstanding (the transaction model fixes it for us). Wouldn't the ORDER or arrivals for the answers be enough to correlate them, even with multiple in flight? That is why we switched to TCP (reliable transport), so we can have multiple messages in flight. Henning Rogge From nobody Wed Jun 22 02:12:40 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B551912D094; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 02:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FSL_HELO_HOME=1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gpb2kyHfDQe6; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 02:12:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D732812B060; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 02:12:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 10:12:12 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , "sratliff@idirect.net" , "lberger@labn.net" Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP question Thread-Index: AQHRzGYomCZFzPj0W0eRWhFX+szX4Q== Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:11:24 +0000 Message-ID: <1466586684.28636.15.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> In-Reply-To: <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gVGhpcyBlbGVjdHJvbmlj IG1lc3NhZ2UgYW5kIGFueSBmaWxlcyB0cmFuc21pdHRlZCB3aXRoIGl0IGNvbnRhaW5zDQo+IGlu Zm9ybWF0aW9uIGZyb20gaURpcmVjdCwgd2hpY2ggbWF5IGJlIHByaXZpbGVnZWQsIHByb3ByaWV0 YXJ5DQo+IGFuZC9vciBjb25maWRlbnRpYWwuIEl0IGlzIGludGVuZGVkIHNvbGVseSBmb3IgdGhl IHVzZSBvZiB0aGUNCj4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbA0KPiBvciBlbnRpdHkgdG8gd2hvbSB0aGV5IGFyZSBh ZGRyZXNzZWQuIElmIHlvdSBhcmUgbm90IHRoZSBvcmlnaW5hbA0KPiByZWNpcGllbnQgb3IgdGhl IHBlcnNvbiByZXNwb25zaWJsZSBmb3IgZGVsaXZlcmluZyB0aGUgZW1haWwgdG8gdGhlDQo+IGlu dGVuZGVkIHJlY2lwaWVudCwgYmUgYWR2aXNlZCB0aGF0IHlvdSBoYXZlIHJlY2VpdmVkIHRoaXMg ZW1haWwNCj4gaW4gZXJyb3IsIGFuZCB0aGF0IGFueSB1c2UsIGRpc3NlbWluYXRpb24sIGZvcndh cmRpbmcsIHByaW50aW5nLCBvcg0KPiBjb3B5aW5nIG9mIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgaXMgc3RyaWN0bHkg cHJvaGliaXRlZC4gSWYgeW91IHJlY2VpdmVkIHRoaXMNCj4gZW1haWwNCj4gaW4gZXJyb3IsIHBs ZWFzZSBkZWxldGUgaXQgYW5kIGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5IG5vdGlmeSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyLg0KPiBfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBfX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiBtYW5ldCBtYWls aW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gbWFuZXRAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1h bi9saXN0aW5mby9tYW5ldA== From nobody Wed Jun 22 04:36:45 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A24BB12D106 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 04:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP 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DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:References:To:Subject:From; bh=IjPgcLH0lZOQfrebgUJCpnEaolZzJyj0dBaSW1rF0HI=; b=YF2F81ZRB7WOUSRmzKxwukinJU Tr3Wti1PHFDmChqHPNPf4/jQxrO57SsJGhP8BCITIDnHkwjlQj64VEdDELC4Al9smXJWWHAR4RmiD MVKI4BHYnaY4ID5yoqHO4W1XA; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:36034 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bFgSF-0002t4-G5; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 05:36:23 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: Rick Taylor , draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org, manet@ietf.org, sratliff@idirect.net References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <1466586684.28636.15.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> Message-ID: <725f8efa-993f-e1d8-39ff-2e722294b63b@labn.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 07:36:17 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1466586684.28636.15.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 11:36:43 -0000 Hi Rick, Wrt question 1 - correlation of a router sent announce and the modem sent response, I missed the mac address in the announce (consistent formatting wrt data items or bnf would have made it more obvious) -- this answers both the correlation and transaction model questions. So no change needed here. See below for question 2 On June 22, 2016 5:12:43 AM Rick Taylor wrote: > Hi Lou, > > Due to time-zones, I'll add some late comments myself, inline.. > Hardly late - and certainly helpful. > On Wed, 2016-06-22 at 00:35 +0000, Ratliff, Stanley wrote: >> >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] >> > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 8:26 PM >> > To: Ratliff, Stanley ; draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ >> > ietf.org; >> > MANET IETF >> > Subject: Re: DLEP question >> > >> > Hi Stan, >> > >> > Thanks for the quick response. >> > >> > >> > On 6/21/2016 7:55 PM, Ratliff, Stanley wrote: >> > > >> > > ..... >> > > 2. The Announce message does include IPv4 and IPv6 Address data >> > > items >> > (Section 9.13, 5th paragraph). You are correct that the Dest >> > Announce >> > doesn't currently include the IPv4/IPv6 Attached Subnet data items. >> > My question what the router sends, i.e., the Destination Announce >> > Response Message. >... > > >> > > >> > > TBH, I don't remember if that was intentional or not - I know >> > > the discussion >> > went on for a long time about whether the attached subnet TLVs >> > effectively >> > made DLEP a routing protocol. IIRC, because of that, there were >> > iterations >> > where the Attached Subnet items were included, and ones where it >> > was >> > removed. I just don't remember where we finally landed. As for >> > allowing >> > other data items on Destination Announce (like the same data items >> > that are >> > on Destination Up/Destination Update), the rationale was that >> > allowing a >> > router to send metrics *to* the modem didn't make a whole lot of >> > sense - no >> > one was sure what the modem would do with those metrics. > > It wasn't clear to me at the time of writing that attached subnets made > any sense in the use-case of multicast that Announce was designed to > solve, but I can see no harm in allowing them (as a "MAY contain...") > in the response message. > While announce may have been targeted at multicast originally, and this is covered in the 1st paragraph in section 9.13, it also supports the case where a router previously nacked an Up and is now interested in hearing about that mac: A Destination Announce Message MAY also be sent by a router to request information concerning a destination in which it has previously declined interest, via the 1 'Not Interested' status code in a Destination Up Response Message (Section 9.12), see Table 4, or declared as 'down', via the Destination Down Message (Section 9.15). It's in this case that it would seem that the router would need to hear the same information as is in the Up message. >> > >> > Again, I'm asking about what the modem sends the router and the >> > difference in the information provided based on which initiates the >> > "destination". In modem initiated, the up includes IP address & >> > prefix, plus >> > metrics; while in the Destination Announce Response Message only >> > metrics >> > are provided -- yet the same action is expected, i.e.,: >> > >> > the router should add knowledge of the available destination to >> > its >> > information base. > > It's the difference between the modem discovering a unicast neighbour = > Dest_Up; and the router discovering the need (IGMP snooping) for > metrics to a logical (multicast/broadcast) destination = > Dest_Announce. > > Because of the different use-cases the message contents are different, > hence the different messages. > Right, the problem is that both use cases are now supported by announce, and in the second the information is incomplete. > The 'knowledge' mentioned in the text is the link metrics and > availability status. > >> > >> > >> > If the same action is expected for the Up and the response, >> > shouldn't the >> > same info be available? > > No, different use-case. Each party already has different partial > information, so only the missing information needs to be exchanged. > >> Ahh, I understand now. Yes, I agree - metrics should be allowed on >> the response. I'm still not clear on the Attached Subnet TLVs - if a >> router says "I found the following destination", does it make sense >> for the modem to respond "Yeah, and I've got the following subnets >> attached to it"? What would a router do with a Destination Announce >> Response that has subnet info attached to it? > > Metrics are already allowed on the response (Sec 9.14). See above for > my comments on attached subnets. > > The Status data item is in the Announce Response so the modem has some > way to say "No, I don't do multicast" or suchlike. > I think this is addressed above too. > Hope that helps? Yes. Thank you. Lou > > Rick > > > >> >> Regards, >> Stan >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > Lou >> > >> > PS If so, this is a minor doc fix IMO... >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Stan >> > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: Lou Berger [mailto:lberger@labn.net] >> > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 6:47 PM >> > > > To: draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org; MANET IETF >> > > > Subject: DLEP question >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Hi, >> > > > >> > > > Please excuse me if we already covered this ground and have >> > > > forgotten the answers. I have two questions on DLEP: >> > > > >> > > > 1) How does a router correlate a received Destination Announce >> > > > Response Message (sent by a modem) to its Destination Announce >> > Message? >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > - A possible answer is it, doesn't; but then why have a Status >> > > > data item? >> > > > >> > > > 2) Shouldn't a Destination Announce Response Message include >> > > > the same >> > > > optional parameters as a Destination Up message? (Notably >> > > > absent are >> > > > IP addresses and subnets). >> > > > >> > > > - If omission is intentional, how does router provide reachable >> > > > address and prefix information? (A required subsequent Update? >> > > > - >> > > > yuch!) >> > > > >> > > > Thanks, >> > > > >> > > > Lou >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _____________________________________________________ >> > > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it >> > > contains >> > > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary >> > > and/or >> > > confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual >> > > or >> > > entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original >> > > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to >> > > the >> > > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email >> > > in >> > > error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or >> > > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received >> > > this >> > > email in error, please delete it and immediately notify the >> > > sender. >> > > _____________________________________________________ >> > >> >> _____________________________________________________ >> This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains >> information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary >> and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the >> individual >> or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original >> recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the >> intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email >> in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or >> copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this >> email >> in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. >> _____________________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ >> manet mailing list >> manet@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet From nobody Wed Jun 22 06:39:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3F412D16D; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:39:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FSL_HELO_HOME=1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xNoowVSiHURb; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23BDA12D178; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d]) by tss-server1.home.tropicalstormsoftware.com ([fe80::753b:fa82:5c0:af0d%10]) with mapi; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 14:39:00 +0100 From: Rick Taylor To: "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , "sratliff@idirect.net" , "lberger@labn.net" Thread-Topic: [manet] DLEP question Thread-Index: AQHRzGYomCZFzPj0W0eRWhFX+szX4Z/1SwSAgAAiEYA= Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:38:13 +0000 Message-ID: <1466602693.28636.41.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <1466586684.28636.15.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> <725f8efa-993f-e1d8-39ff-2e722294b63b@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <725f8efa-993f-e1d8-39ff-2e722294b63b@labn.net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <12c15a71-8168-4363-9426-8183b48b9ea1> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:39:30 -0000 SGkgTG91LA0KDQpDb21tZW50cyBpbmxpbmUNCg0KT24gV2VkLCAyMDE2LTA2LTIyIGF0IDA3OjM2 IC0wNDAwLCBMb3UgQmVyZ2VyIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBIaSBSaWNrLA0KPiANCj4gV3J0IHF1ZXN0aW9u IDEgLSBjb3JyZWxhdGlvbiBvZiBhIHJvdXRlciBzZW50IGFubm91bmNlIGFuZCB0aGUgbW9kZW0N Cj4gc2VudCByZXNwb25zZSwgSSBtaXNzZWQgdGhlIG1hYyBhZGRyZXNzIGluIHRoZSBhbm5vdW5j 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IG9mIHRoaXMgZW1haWwgaXMgc3RyaWN0bHkgcHJvaGliaXRlZC4gSWYgeW91IHJlY2VpdmVkDQo+ ID4gPiB0aGlzDQo+ID4gPiBlbWFpbA0KPiA+ID4gaW4gZXJyb3IsIHBsZWFzZSBkZWxldGUgaXQg YW5kIGltbWVkaWF0ZWx5IG5vdGlmeSB0aGUgc2VuZGVyLg0KPiA+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ID4gPiBtYW5ldCBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4gPiA+IG1hbmV0QGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9t YWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL21hbmV0DQo+IA== From nobody Wed Jun 22 06:56:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28E7812D511 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:56:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T0qjzFMtj0FM for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22a.google.com (mail-vk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8359A12D19E for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id j2so62854160vkg.2 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:56:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=BNpGWfv62Ig1+hJPVnxtnHwiUdMf820dF5KDYYts5bI=; 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ALyK8tKj1SHNl7U91PO5wsS9Z8I23QkumWrTBAulJcwk0MDfMZCUXSwjX3A7YCTZOCovD5UPa/DDohOt/ng6MQ== X-Received: by 10.31.96.70 with SMTP id u67mr11397188vkb.107.1466603794568; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:56:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.39.73 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 06:56:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Justin Dean Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 09:56:34 -0400 Message-ID: To: "manet@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e5d28339c090535de4ee6 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] Last call on OLSRv2 Sec Threats still open X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:56:37 -0000 --001a114e5d28339c090535de4ee6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There was a mixup. Last Call for OLSRv2-Sec-Threats document is still open and will end on July 1st. I'll take this opportunity to again remind people to please read and comment to the list. Justin --001a114e5d28339c090535de4ee6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There was a mixup.=C2=A0 Last Call for OLSRv2-Sec-Threats = document is still open and will end on July 1st.=C2=A0 I'll take this o= pportunity to again remind people to please read and comment to the list.
Justin
--001a114e5d28339c090535de4ee6-- From nobody Wed Jun 22 12:24:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D74212B05A for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:24:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.792 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.792 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (768-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5XVduifSsGeC for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:24:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy7-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [70.40.196.235]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A78A212D7B7 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 12:24:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24920 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jun 2016 19:24:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw2) (10.0.90.83) by gproxy7.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 22 Jun 2016 19:24:48 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw2 with id 9vQf1t00l2SSUrH01vQi8e; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:24:46 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=ff4+lSgF c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=uEJ9t1CZtbIA:10 a=pD_ry4oyNxEA:10 a=hLQQqnHMeT5USLfEge4A:9 a=Tsh9OZ5hd0PBi_Rd:21 a=mikdsu80X8OAy7UK:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version :Date:Message-ID:From:References:To:Subject; bh=H2eXOskKQ7Aivu/ON/y5fkoBZQ8PL8qIcQc/+DPTgwc=; b=ilqhWcfAmCcPo3evYbvhR5c7HG Y7mkC97eloCewAlvL0QTHZdW17EOasD7dmhmc5oSpHvP6S14Welqb/Vxnh/3aNBeOloQEan3r3b13 MpwdB2EqR6VAmj2iurIbHzaab; Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]:37594 helo=[127.0.0.1]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bFnlR-00057R-6I; Wed, 22 Jun 2016 13:24:41 -0600 To: Rick Taylor , "draft-ietf-manet-dlep@ietf.org" , "manet@ietf.org" , "sratliff@idirect.net" References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <1466586684.28636.15.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> <725f8efa-993f-e1d8-39ff-2e722294b63b@labn.net> <1466602693.28636.41.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> From: Lou Berger Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 15:24:35 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1466602693.28636.41.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 69.89.31.113 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2016 19:24:50 -0000 Rick, see below. On 6/22/2016 9:38 AM, Rick Taylor wrote: > ... >>>>>> 2. The Announce message does include IPv4 and IPv6 Address >>>>>> data >>>>>> items >>>>> (Section 9.13, 5th paragraph). You are correct that the Dest >>>>> Announce >>>>> doesn't currently include the IPv4/IPv6 Attached Subnet data >>>>> items. >>>>> My question what the router sends, i.e., the Destination >>>>> Announce >>>>> Response Message. >>> ... >>> >>> >>>>>> >>>>>> TBH, I don't remember if that was intentional or not - I >>>>>> know >>>>>> the discussion >>>>> went on for a long time about whether the attached subnet TLVs >>>>> effectively >>>>> made DLEP a routing protocol. IIRC, because of that, there were >>>>> iterations >>>>> where the Attached Subnet items were included, and ones where >>>>> it >>>>> was >>>>> removed. I just don't remember where we finally landed. As for >>>>> allowing >>>>> other data items on Destination Announce (like the same data >>>>> items >>>>> that are >>>>> on Destination Up/Destination Update), the rationale was that >>>>> allowing a >>>>> router to send metrics *to* the modem didn't make a whole lot >>>>> of >>>>> sense - no >>>>> one was sure what the modem would do with those metrics. >>> It wasn't clear to me at the time of writing that attached subnets >>> made >>> any sense in the use-case of multicast that Announce was designed >>> to >>> solve, but I can see no harm in allowing them (as a "MAY >>> contain...") >>> in the response message. >>> >> While announce may have been targeted at multicast originally, and >> this >> is covered in the 1st paragraph in section 9.13, it also supports the >> case where a router previously nacked an Up and is now interested in >> hearing about that mac: >> >> A Destination Announce Message MAY also be sent by a router to >> request information concerning a destination in which it has >> previously declined interest, via the 1 'Not Interested' status >> code >> in a Destination Up Response Message (Section 9.12), see Table 4, >> or >> declared as 'down', via the Destination Down Message (Section >> 9.15). >> >> It's in this case that it would seem that the router would need to >> hear >> the same information as is in the Up message. > I disagree, if the router is using Destination Announce to request the > resumption of Destination Updates concerning a Destination it *already* > knows about, we decided it was best to only provide the mutable (link) > information in the response. this works for IP addresses, but not subnets -- as I read the spec. > However, comparing Destination Announce Response with the Destination > Update message, it could be argued IP address is mutable; but I suggest > that in the (expected to be unlikely) case that a Destination has > changed IP addresses (and remained up) between a router sending a 'shut > up' Destination Down and a later 'resume' Destination Announce, an > extra Destination Update is all it takes to update the router, and this > applies to Attached Subnets as well. this means that you assume a router maintains state for a destination it is *not* tracking???? This isn't stated in the spec, nor do I think it is particularly obvious. > I think we may be arguing over two different ways of providing the same > functionality, I agree, but read the spec as saying that an announce response needs to be followed by the modem sending a destination update to provide the latest IP information. This should be clarified IMO, or the requirement for a router to store state even for destinations which it rejects -- but honestly think this makes little sense. > and I believe Stan and I are both in the "many small > messages with few options" camp, rather than the "one big message with > all options" camp. Sure, but in this case I personally would have just had a destination announce trigger a destination up... >>>>> >>>>> Again, I'm asking about what the modem sends the router and the >>>>> difference in the information provided based on which initiates >>>>> the >>>>> "destination". In modem initiated, the up includes IP address >>>>> & >>>>> prefix, plus >>>>> metrics; while in the Destination Announce Response Message >>>>> only >>>>> metrics >>>>> are provided -- yet the same action is expected, i.e.,: >>>>> >>>>> the router should add knowledge of the available destination >>>>> to >>>>> its >>>>> information base. >>> It's the difference between the modem discovering a unicast >>> neighbour = >>> Dest_Up; and the router discovering the need (IGMP snooping) for >>> metrics to a logical (multicast/broadcast) destination = >>> Dest_Announce. >>> >>> Because of the different use-cases the message contents are >>> different, >>> hence the different messages. >>> >> Right, the problem is that both use cases are now supported by >> announce, >> and in the second the information is incomplete. > No, sorry, I disagree, they are different use-cases. I'm sorry, I just don't see how IP addresses and subnets are covered in the 'now interested' case based on the current document. I think there is at a minimum some (minor) clarifications / changes to the doc to clear this up, which should be doable before the next step, i.e., IETF last call. Thanks, Lou From nobody Thu Jun 23 01:55:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6AC12DF90; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 01:55:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gwEJyQ_zFgT6; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 01:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta1.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DD2D12DF8A; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 01:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,509,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="81770103" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 23 Jun 2016 09:55:01 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,515,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="123224969" Received: from glkxh0005v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.36]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 23 Jun 2016 09:54:45 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0005V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 09:54:45 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , "draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 Thread-Index: AQHRy+wAa7+0C+fEHkOeHxNkPsT4mp/2wBsw Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 08:54:44 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D19DCGLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 08:55:13 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D19DCGLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Termination is, unless a late change that I've missed was made, a standard = DLEP behaviour. So if there's an issue, it's probably a general DLEP issue = rather than just a credit window issue. That said, I think the DLEP security model is to assume that there won't be= anything injected on a dedicated radio (*) to router link. I don't recall = how clearly that's said in the DLEP draft. But if that is accepted from DLE= P, I don't think it's new to credit window (though a reference could be mad= e to that). (*) DLEP uses modem. I continue to think radio, while not ideal, is a bette= r word. This is supported by that some non-IETF work I'm aware of (and the = authors are aware of) that discussed DLEP translated modem to radio to pres= ent to a customer community (even in quotations from the draft). However th= at view didn't gain traction in this WG. -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories __________________________________________________________________________ T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana (are= tana) Sent: 21 June 2016 19:38 To: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 *** WARNING *** EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter= nal partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply. For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you= receive, click here. If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. Stan: Hi! How are you? I just finished reading this document. First of all, thanks for taking thi= s work on! Please see my comments below. I think many of the comments (even the Major= ones) should be easy to address. However, I am specially concerned about = the actions (terminate) to be taken in some of the cases - which, I think, = make DLEP vulnerable. After you address the Major comments and provide a revised ID, I will want = to get a review from the Transport Area, probably in parallel with the IETF= Last Call (depending on where we are with the DLEP document). Thanks! Alvaro. Major: M1. "Credit Use Rejected" Status. When should this Status be used? I'm gu= essing that maybe windowing is not supported (the router understands the fe= ature, but doesn't support it) -- what else? I suspect that it is up to th= e receiver to use this status as it sees fit, is that the intent? If so, p= lease clearly say so. Are there any well-known reasons that might be benef= icial to mention? M2. Both Sections 8.1. (DLEP Destination Up Message) and 8.2. (DLEP Destina= tion Announce Message) say that "MUST use the value in Credit Grant as the = initial value...". But given that the credit use can be rejected, the "MUS= T" is misleading. s/MUST/SHOULD or clarify "...if accepted..." M3. It is not a requirement that Credit Windows be always implemented in bo= th directions, right? M3.1. Sections 5. (Operation), 8.3. (DLEP Destination Up Response Message) = and 8.4. (DLEP Destination Announce Response Message) all say that after re= ceiving a Credit Grant data item "the receiver MUST respond...with a respon= se message that contains a Credit Grant data item". However, Section 9.1. = (Credit Grant) says that "the receiver MUST respond with a message containi= ng a Credit Window Status data item", which seems to be the right thing. M3.2. It seems to me that (in 8.3 and 8.4) this text should also talk about= the Credit Window Status data item: M3.2.1. (in the response): "...if the corresponding...message did not conta= in a Credit Grant...Response message MUST NOT contain a Credit Grant (Secti= on 9.1) data item". M3.2.2. "receiver of...Response MUST use the received Credit Grant value to= initialize...". M3.3. Related to this point, Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) says that the "Cre= dit Grant data item MAY appear in the DLEP Destination Up, Destination Anno= unce, and Destination Update messages." No response messages are listed, = which is ok. I would suggest you stress that those are the only messages w= hich can contain the data item. Either s/MAY/MAY only, or (even better) s/= MAY/MUST only [I think the "MUST" is ok because the Operation section alr= eady talks about not every destination needing credit windowing.] M4. Credit Window Out of Sync status code. Both 8.3 and 8.4 say that if a = peer "detects a mismatch in the presence or absence of credit window data i= tems...MUST terminate the session". M4.1. Section 7. (DLEP Status Codes for Credit-Window Extension) says lists= the failure mode as "Continue". Please correct that and make sure that th= e registration request explicitly tells IANA which range to assign the stat= us codes from. M4.2. It seems to me that using a "terminate" failure mode may be overkill.= It also seems to me that it would be straight forward to require a Credit= Grant data item to be sent after receiving this status code and let the se= ssion resync on its own (or send a Credit Grant if the lack of sync is dete= cted locally) - it looks like the potential impact of resetting the session= may not be justified for a single stream. I note in the DLEP spec that ev= en refusing to do something (Request Denied) has a failure mode of Continue. M5. Section 9.2. (Credit Window Status) says that if the "local credit coun= ts are not synchronized...MAY either...or o Issue a DLEP Destination Down m= essage, to clear credit counts on the session." M5.1. [nit] was this intended to be a bulleted list? M5.2. The "MAY" indicates that both actions are optional. IOW, it says tha= t neither action has to be performed. If that is so, then how do we get th= e session back in sync? M5.3. That second option (Destination Down) could also result in the routin= g protocol (or anyone else listening to DLEP) to reset their adjacency. As= I mentioned above, this action seems to be too drastic because of the effe= ct. Or am I missing something? M5.4. Going back to the "MAY either" part. When (Why) would an implementat= ion chose not to use the least intrusive option? M5.5. Given the potential problems with falling out to sync, why is this se= ction not more prescriptive: "It is recommended that implementations issue = a DLEP Destination Update with a Credit Window Status data item at a config= urable multiple of the DLEP Heartbeat timer..." Maybe s/recommended/RECOMM= ENDED M6. Section 9.3. (Credit Request) M6.1. "If the corresponding...message for this session did not contain a Cr= edit Grant data item...then receipt of the Credit Request data item MUST be= considered as an error by the receiver, requiring termination of the DLEP = peer session." Same comment as before; very disruptive! M6.2. There's no guidance as to what should be done when receiving a Credit= Request. M7. Section 10. (Security Considerations) M7.1. "The extension does not introduce any additional threats above those = documented in [DLEP]." I disagree. The extra opportunities to reset the D= LEP session create a potential DoS attack: a peer can (for example) send a = Credit Request for any destination not using credits and the whole session = is reset, potentially affecting other flows. M7.2. "The mitigation strategy documented in that document is sufficient to= secure operation of this extension." Neither "mitigation" nor "strategy" = show up in the DLEP document - you'll have to be more specific. Minor: p1. For ease of tracking, please number the TBD values (for example TBD1, T= BD2, etc.) throughout the document to match the requests to IANA. p2. Section 6 is superfluous, please delete it. p3. "Descriptions of the data items are included below." Please put a refe= rence. p4. The format in Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) shows two "Credit Increment" = fields. From the explanation which indicates a "64-bit quantity), I'm assu= ming that these are really not 2 independent fields, but one big (64-bits) = "Credit Increment" field. Please fix the figure. P4.1. The MRW/RRW in the figure in Section 9.2 have the same problem. p5. I don't think the reference to RFC5578 is needed. Pointing to another = scheme may create confusion. Nits: n1. Please expand on first mention: DLEP (in the abstract), RF. n2. s/Dynamic Link Event Protocol/Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol n3. s/draft/document n4. Change the order of the sections putting "Credit Window Data Item Defin= itions" before "DLEP Data Items for Credit-Window Extension". ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. 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--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D19DCGLKXM0002VGREEN_-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 02:16:11 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E94D12E0BC; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 02:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.327 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.327 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FSL_HELO_HOME=1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7Ix7jITt4kR5; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 02:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com (mail.tropicalstormsoftware.com [188.94.42.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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d="scan'208,217"; a="81795699" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 23 Jun 2016 10:39:21 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,509,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="123236022" Received: from glkxh0005v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.36]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 23 Jun 2016 10:39:21 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0005V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.36]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 10:39:21 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Jiazi YI , Christopher Dearlove Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4vIPs5E88YPkOnu3lAZD3QM5/yYTeAgAAlw0CAAGadAIAABbgAgAF2ygCAAm368A== Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 09:39:20 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] 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KioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqPC9wPjwvYm9keT4NCjwvaHRtbD4NCg== --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1A4DGLKXM0002VGREEN_-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 04:00:17 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCDB612E2AB; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:00:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bo0M_CrJro8s; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B23C7127058; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:00:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4481; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466679614; x=1467889214; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=lst5x2DzkXbSPrgTo43mw6sgh1EZGoKV8hwQ6xWERgM=; b=OPwhp8tYZZGWzKU41G2Ru163jrFTcdtORNmBk9nfkGjQ+Ux9TKzPFBtN lEKgVGQe+39DTllmEfq7IVYsrgHY9DxXljNOFDVFTmgdMXrZVPYgsemev gSkoUGg2FDWicrKD+jfqDVSM0/lhak7IMizunMG6QCDulplG97rY/o4mb o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0CvBQCIwGtX/4ENJK1dgnBOVn0GtTKFA?= =?us-ascii?q?YF6hhcCgS45EwEBAQEBAQFlJ4RNAQEELUwQAgEIPwcyFBECBAENBYgwxkQBAQE?= 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Thread-Topic: AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 Thread-Index: AQHRy+wAa7+0C+fEHkOeHxNkPsT4mp/2wBswgAA1noA= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:00:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D391368F13058Earetanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:00:16 -0000 --_000_D391368F13058Earetanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/23/16, 4:54 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" > wrote: Christopher: Hi! Termination is, unless a late change that I've missed was made, a standard = DLEP behaviour. So if there's an issue, it's probably a general DLEP issue = rather than just a credit window issue. I don't have an issue with the Terminate Failure Mode; you're right, it is = in the base spec. I have an issue with using the Terminate Failure Mode to reset the DLEP ses= sion if one of the credit windows falls out of sync (the ID says "...mismat= ch in the presence or absence of credit window data items..."). I have an = issue with that because terminating the DLEP session would have an impact w= ell beyond the one destination credit window we're trying to fix. Alvaro. --_000_D391368F13058Earetanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6/23/16, 4:54 AM, "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Christopher:

Hi!

Termination is, unless a late chang= e that I’ve missed was made, a standard DLEP behaviour. So if there&#= 8217;s an issue, it’s probably a general DLEP issue rather than just a credit window issue.

I don't have an issue with the Terminate Failure Mode; you're right, i= t is in the base spec.

I have an issue with using the Terminate Failure Mode to reset the DLE= P session if one of the credit windows falls out of sync (the ID says "= ;…mismatch in the presence or absence of credit window data itemsR= 30;").  I have an issue with that because terminating the DLEP session would have an impact well beyond the one destination cred= it window we're trying to fix.

Alvaro.
--_000_D391368F13058Earetanaciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 04:04:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D4EC12E2B8 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:04:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=labn.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MZoZrMOBk8z9 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com (gproxy1-pub.mail.unifiedlayer.com [69.89.25.95]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8797C12E2B6 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 04:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 4910 invoked by uid 0); 23 Jun 2016 11:04:15 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cmgw3) (10.0.90.84) by gproxy1.mail.unifiedlayer.com with SMTP; 23 Jun 2016 11:04:15 -0000 Received: from box313.bluehost.com ([69.89.31.113]) by cmgw3 with id AB471t00f2SSUrH01B4AT2; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:04:15 -0600 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.1 cv=KpLehwmN c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:117 a=h1BC+oY+fLhyFmnTBx92Jg==:17 a=L9H7d07YOLsA:10 a=9cW_t1CCXrUA:10 a=s5jvgZ67dGcA:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=-NfooI8aBGcA:10 a=oK_VWpv5GtAA:10 a=pD_ry4oyNxEA:10 a=5vjwwrbCAAAA:8 a=pHW5-u6uWmw8iMO9hMcA:9 a=0DF7lxeZDAXR7b2F:21 a=U3ATvw68yNsbacJl:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=pV4yRLctw-KkoPKGQz8o:22 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=labn.net; s=default; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Subject: References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Date:To:From; bh=jsD3vfPyxWtwRtY+OmfRLXnU+CS4FmQ9Qmya5aQsm4E=; b=VgSP0yUgb0tZsBnvGaZZrsv7r9 ZB8kTC4xCxcnlTuq4bihTJCYzhXH49BWJeFAkOoJyeofQIM0D5PQquhkCf1OPWU4pDnpQkmu7421l NeU/L83Kl19HJT5/hOeSaCPIq; Received: from [100.15.89.178] (port=41368 helo=[11.4.0.238]) by box313.bluehost.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bG2QZ-000159-FB; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 05:04:07 -0600 From: Lou Berger To: Rick Taylor , , , Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 07:04:04 -0400 Message-ID: <1557cee5ca0.2818.9b4188e636579690ba6c69f2c8a0f1fd@labn.net> In-Reply-To: <1466673041.28636.63.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> References: <3ca9ff337d414c9499cb7c0e34867971@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <25f3b91480d64425b4ec774506208029@VAUSDITCHM2.idirect.net> <1466586684.28636.15.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> <725f8efa-993f-e1d8-39ff-2e722294b63b@labn.net> <1466602693.28636.41.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> <1466673041.28636.63.camel@tropicalstormsoftware.com> User-Agent: AquaMail/1.6.2.3 (build: 27000203) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Identified-User: {1038:box313.bluehost.com:labnmobi:labn.net} {sentby:smtp auth 100.15.89.178 authed with lberger@labn.net} Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] DLEP question X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:04:21 -0000 Rick, the proposed change will resolve my comment/concern. Thank you, Lou On June 23, 2016 5:11:59 AM Rick Taylor wrote: ... > > However, adding optional IP address/subnet information to the announce > response is a minor change, and may cover a use-case we have not > considered, and aligns the content with Destination Update.  > > We will most likely be issuing an update to take onboard the AD > comments we have received, so we have a good opportunity to address > this. > > Thanks for really having a good look at the doc! > > Rick > >> >> Thanks, >> Lou >>   >> From nobody Thu Jun 23 06:49:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F370E12D0A0 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 06:49:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, 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Christopher (UK)" , MANET IETF Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb45nN25WZgMK06m1fJHx+MHXJ/ytQmAgAAbBICAAHFbAIAABbgAgAF2ywCAAl/iAIAARf0A//+/nFA= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:02:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.250.250.20] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ecaf7affc20c4f9088cbb33ebb7f6f53VAUSDITCHM2idirectnet_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:02:41 -0000 --_000_ecaf7affc20c4f9088cbb33ebb7f6f53VAUSDITCHM2idirectnet_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2Z-BhLI5-I6q for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8B9612D6A7 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:24:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id h129so104306943lfh.1 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:24:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=QjP1P1VOAITBWd/pqZ94Zrot8yXGPtzaf6kEAKT9JSk=; b=dd/5mvJ0Blh37JQBK+Y9y2d2Clxy++Tt7hml25Kg/6qDvmK6V5UP8b2ai5vXvxq3Eu 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10.25.18.35 with SMTP id h35mr188907lfi.82.1466717088165; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:24:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.182.166 with HTTP; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:24:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:24:45 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: oQAIXOsSjpNzWoNGISeCKsboxTQ Message-ID: To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , "Ratliff, Stanley" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fbed206b4650535f8af6a Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 21:24:57 -0000 --001a113fbed206b4650535f8af6a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chris, Stan: It's good point that we need to add some text about applying RFC6554 to MANET. We will make a proposal later. Regarding the issues of "referencing an RPL RFC", the problem we have with AODVv2 is very different from this. AODVv2 tries to reference RFC6551, which defines a set of metric types and it states * Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics* * compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the* * specification of new routing metrics and constraints. * as the first sentence in the abstract. For olsrv2-multipath, it has a reference to RFC6554, which defines a source routing header with address compression. Although it has "RPL" in its title, the format itself is protocol-neutral. I would imagine if someone want to implement DSR with IPv6, the RFC6554 would be a natural choice. As we will restrict the header to be used only in foo-protocol routing domain, there won't be any interoperability issue. We can, of course, proposal another RFC and ask for new "IPv6 Routing Type" to support source routing in IPv6 by just removing RPL-related clause in RFC6554. But it would be the same packet format, except the "IPv6 Routing Type" number --- personally, I don't think it's necessary. I'm having Alvaro in cc also, because it's kind of cross WG issue. Alvaro: Using source routing is not a rare case in IPv6. Only considering MANET WG, there is DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's now off the charter) also discussed possible extension with path accumulation. Personally, I believe having a reference to RFC6554 should be OK, with some explanations in the draft. Your advice would be appreciated. cheers Jiazi On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > I think this is really a comment for Jiazi. I=E2=80=99m not suggesting ad= ding a > reference to RFC 6554, that reference is already in the draft. > > > > I=E2=80=99m saying that if you reference RFC 6554, you=E2=80=99re referen= cing something > that doesn=E2=80=99t apply unless and until you add some text to make it = apply. > > > > Whether that is a terrible awful thing that should not be done (not my > words - in fact I don=E2=80=99t recall commenting on that aspect of AODVv= 2) is up > to the community to judge. > > > > But input from the people who have implemented this draft would be useful= . > Did they find RFC 6554 already in place? Already implemented and portable > to in place? Had to write in from scratch? Didn=E2=80=99t actually use RF= C 6554 but > something else (e.g. deprecated RH0)? Only implemented for IPv4? > > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence Laboratories * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > *From:* Ratliff, Stanley [mailto:sratliff@idirect.net] > *Sent:* 23 June 2016 15:02 > *To:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF > *Subject:* RE: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > Chris, > > > > I see your point on RFC 6554. But didn=E2=80=99t we **just** go through a= n > exercise with AODVv2 where that draft attempted to reference a RPL RFC, a= nd > the consensus of the WG was that this was a =E2=80=9Cterrible, awful thin= g that > should not be done=E2=80=9D????? > > > > Regards, > > Stan > > > > *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > *Sent:* Thursday, June 23, 2016 9:50 AM > *To:* MANET IETF > *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 > > > > Digging further, there was a draft-reitzel-ipv4-source-routing-is-evil-00 > that pointed out that IPv4 source routing had exactly the same problems a= s > the deprecated RH0 IPv6 source routing, and recommended deprecating that. > But the draft never preceded further. I don=E2=80=99t know why. I have se= en it > indicated that most operators drop such packets, so maybe it wasn=E2=80= =99t felt > necessary. > > > > As for why RFC 6554 avoids the RH0 problem, essentially it defines it > away: =E2=80=9Ca RPL router drops datagrams that include multiple address= es > assigned to any interfaces on that router to avoid forwarding loops=E2=80= =9D Note > that=E2=80=99s not as simple as dropping datagrams with duplicate address= es, it > also includes dropping datagrams with two addresses of the same interface= - > which only that router can do. > > > > So, in order to use RFC 6554 source routing here, we need to (a) say that > a required condition is that the MANET routers support RFC 6554, because > that RFC itself only specifies this for RPL routers, and (b) that they mu= st > support the required features in particular the datagram suppression note= d > above. > > > > But, I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect a typical router currently to do this, bec= ause it > won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Can RPL router=E2=80=9D - here input from people= who have done this hands > on would be useful, did they have to add this functionality? > > > > And for IPv4, need (loose) source routing to be supported within the > MANET, which again it may or may not be. > > > > (Note that RFC 6554 source routing isn=E2=80=99t the same as RH0 source r= outing, > because RFC 6554 source routing includes compression.) > > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence Laboratories * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > *From:* manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > *Sent:* 23 June 2016 10:39 > *To:* Jiazi YI; Christopher Dearlove > *Cc:* MANET IETF > *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > **** **WARNING ****** > EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. > > > > Coincidentally, I was reading about IPv6 source routing, and the > deprecation of RH0 in RFC 5095. RFC 6554 that you refer to claims to have > resolved the security concerns that led to that deprecation. Part of that > is that RFC 6554 is only defined as working in an RPL domain. Now that ca= n > probably be generalised to a MANET - but I don=E2=80=99t think you=E2=80= =99ve done that, > and so I think that needs doing. > > > > I=E2=80=99m then left wondering if the security threat described in RFC 5= 095 > applies to IPv4 source routing. (I=E2=80=99m afraid I haven=E2=80=99t had= time to dig into > this, the coincidence has only just happened, and I thought better to get > an incomplete question out.) RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t discuss IPv4 at all= , but the > basic problem (repeating an address in a source route as an attack) would > appear to still apply. I haven=E2=80=99t understood yet how RFC 6554 avoi= ds this. > It=E2=80=99s possible that RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t consider IPv4 on the = basis that most > people have given up on it, or just it wasn=E2=80=99t of interest to the = authors. > > > > At the minimum I think the draft needs to comment on extending RFC 6554 t= o > MANETs not RPL domains. Ideally (this may or may not cause added security > considerations) someone with a better knowledge of this area (practical a= s > well as theoretical) will comment on the above. > > > > *-- * > > > > > *Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied > Intelligence Laboratories * > *________________________________________________________________________= __ > * > *T*: +44 (0)1245 242194 | *E: *chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great > Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > > > *From:* yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com ] > *On Behalf Of *Jiazi YI > *Sent:* 21 June 2016 22:24 > *To:* Christopher Dearlove > *Cc:* Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF > *Subject:* Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 > > > > > > **** WARNING **** > > *This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an > external partner or the internet.* > > * Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any > attachments or reply. For information regarding **Red Flags** that you > can look out for in emails you receive, click here > .* > * If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process > .* > > We will add some text to make it more precise. > > > > best > > > > Jiazi > > > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Christopher Dearlove < > christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote: > > "Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, only > applicable to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal. > > -- > > Christopher Dearlove > > > On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) < > chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote: > > Comments below. > > > > Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down to one > sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation of= , > the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take= a > look at what you do in your implementation - now see if someone could wor= k > out to do that from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can. > > > > > > we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed reply below= . > > > > > > > Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? > > > > Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks ar= e > transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" is > less important. > > > > CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it helps with packet re-ordering. > > > > When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets and produce > several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those block= s > are forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. Because the encoded > blocks are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of > the same packet(s) doesn't really matter. > > > > > > > > Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low data > rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small factor, n= ot > the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. > > > > We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link capacitie= s > span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated throughput and load > balancing. > > > > So what do you think of: > > > > MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding > single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput an= d > load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. > > > > CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate links. The issues ar= e > ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if there are > underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if > packets do not all need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate > networks as much as low data rate ones. > > > > > > It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low data rate > links. > > > > > > > > PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that as = well (e.g > Routing Set). > > > > Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] already > gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information with an > additional field? It is not used anyways. > > > > CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be called out. It gets used in OLSRv2 = as a > suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d= made a > comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combin= e with that > > > > Yes. we added some text on what "n" is. > > > > > > A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry > times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting s= ets > change. > > If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the reactive > mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on packet flo= w > then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and impleme= nt. > > > > The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section 8.6. > The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments received. O= ne > of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which = no > expiry timer is used. > > Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism as > OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the > multi-path routing set is updated. > > In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the > "topology graph" is changed. The new tuples are recreated "on-demand". > > > > CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that in the reactive case. (Proactive = is easy, > but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you gen= erate it > on demand. There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate > the set? > > > > No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set. > > > > If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and the > set disappears and you need to trigger it again. > > > > Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time required > is trivial, because this is only local: no additional message exchange wi= th > other routers is required. > > > > Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its start. > > > > We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. For each > datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or not. There is = no > much difference from checking the FIB for IP. > > > > If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know > when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops. > > And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is required= - some changes > to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of = a > link not being used). But it=E2=80=99s hard to specify. > > > > For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", because even > links that not used might matters: for example, the decrease in metric of= a > not used metric that introduces a better path. > > It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and could be > optimised in the future, but considering it's a reactive approach, I > believe it's acceptable. > > > > On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to indicate > that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t matter= is > probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is more importa= nt > - and needs text discussing it. > > > > > You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases whil= e > waiting. > > The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this > protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP proces= s, why > mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? > > > > Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is > olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of course, > using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact > the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the experiment points al= so: > > > > > > > > * Different path-selection schedulers. By default, Round-Robin > scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams. In > some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for example, > the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can transfer mo= re > datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics.* > > > > CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s not the round-robin that matt= ers, it=E2=80=99s > that IP needs to do anything. That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried.= Putting > together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, = perhaps in the > applicability section, is needed. > > > > > > We added the following text in the applicability statement: > > > > *MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path > calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive > calculation, the paths to all the destinations are calculated before > needed. In the reactive calculation, only the paths to desired > destination(s) are calculated on demand. The proactive approach requires > more computational resources than the reactive one. The reactive approach > requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-path calculation.* > > > > *MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there > are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP > forwarding plan to be able to choose which source route to be put in the > source routing header based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. F= or > IPv4 networks, implementation of loose source routing is required followi= ng > [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source routing is > required following [RFC6554].* > > > > As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed. > > > > regards > > > > Jiazi > > > > > > > > > > > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > > > _____________________________________________________ > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary > and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual > or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email > in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this email > in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. > _____________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > --001a113fbed206b4650535f8af6a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Chris, Stan:

It's good point tha= t we need to add some text about applying RFC6554 to MANET. We will make a = proposal later.=C2=A0

Regarding the issues of &quo= t;referencing an RPL RFC", the problem we have with AODVv2 is very dif= ferent from this.=C2=A0

AODVv2 tries to reference = RFC6551, which defines a set of metric types and it states=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) h= ave unique characteristics
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compared with tra= ditional wired and ad hoc networks that require the
=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0specification of new routing metrics and constraints.=C2=A0

as = the first sentence in the abstract.=C2=A0
<= br>
For olsrv2-multipath, it has a referenc= e to RFC6554, which defines a source routing header with address compressio= n. Although it has "RPL" in its title, the format itself is proto= col-neutral. I would imagine if someone want to implement DSR with IPv6, th= e RFC6554 would be a natural choice.=C2=A0
= As we will restrict the header to be used only in foo-protocol routing doma= in, there won't be any interoperability issue.=C2=A0
We can, of course, proposal another RFC and ask for new "= ;IPv6 Routing Type" to support source routing in IPv6 by just removing= RPL-related clause in RFC6554. But it would be the same packet format, exc= ept the "IPv6 Routing Type" number --- personally, I don't th= ink it's necessary. =C2=A0

I'm having Alvaro in cc also, because it's= kind of cross WG issue.=C2=A0
Alvaro: Usin= g source routing is not a rare case in IPv6. Only considering MANET WG, the= re is DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's now off the charter) also discusse= d possible extension with path accumulation.=C2=A0
Personally, I believe having a reference to RFC6554 should be OK, w= ith some explanations in the draft. Your advice would be appreciated.=C2=A0=

cheer= s

Jiaz= i

On Thu, Ju= n 23, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearl= ove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I think this is really a comment for Jiazi. = I=E2=80=99m not suggesting adding a reference to RFC 6554, that reference i= s already in the draft.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m saying that if you reference RFC= 6554, you=E2=80=99re referencing something that doesn=E2=80=99t apply unle= ss and until you add some text to make it apply.

=C2=A0

Whether that is a terrible awful thing that = should not be done (not my words - in fact I don=E2=80=99t recall commentin= g on that aspect of AODVv2) is up to the community to judge.

=C2=A0

But input from the people who have implement= ed this draft would be useful. Did they find RFC 6554 already in place? Alr= eady implemented and portable to in place? Had to write in from scratch? Didn=E2=80=99t actually use RFC 6554 but som= ething else (e.g. deprecated RH0)? Only implemented for IPv4?=

=C2=A0

--

Christopher De= arlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_____________________________________________________= _____________________

T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194<= /a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, = Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office= : Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Chris,

=C2=A0

I see your point on RFC 6554.= But didn=E2=80=99t we *just* go through an exercise with AODVv2 whe= re that draft attempted to reference a RPL RFC, and the consensus of the WG was that this was a =E2=80=9Cterrible, awful t= hing that should not be done=E2=80=9D?????

=C2=A0

Regards,=

Stan

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

=C2=A0

Digging further, there was a draft-reitzel-i= pv4-source-routing-is-evil-00 that pointed out that IPv4 source routing had= exactly the same problems as the deprecated RH0 IPv6 source routing, and recommended deprecating that. But the draft n= ever preceded further. I don=E2=80=99t know why. I have seen it indicated t= hat most operators drop such packets, so maybe it wasn=E2=80=99t felt neces= sary.

=C2=A0

As for why RFC 6554 avoids the RH0 problem, = essentially it defines it away: =E2=80=9Ca RPL router drops datagrams that = include multiple addresses assigned to any interfaces on that router to avoid forwarding loops=E2=80=9D Note that=E2=80=99s not = as simple as dropping datagrams with duplicate addresses, it also includes = dropping datagrams with two addresses of the same interface - which only th= at router can do.

=C2=A0

So, in order to use RFC 6554 source routing = here, we need to (a) say that a required condition is that the MANET router= s support RFC 6554, because that RFC itself only specifies this for RPL routers, and (b) that they must support= the required features in particular the datagram suppression noted above.<= u>

=C2=A0

But, I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect a typical rou= ter currently to do this, because it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Can RPL route= r=E2=80=9D - here input from people who have done this hands on would be useful, did they have to add this functionality?

=C2=A0

And for IPv4, need (loose) source routing to= be supported within the MANET, which again it may or may not be.=

=C2=A0

(Note that RFC 6554 source routing isn=E2=80= =99t the same as RH0 source routing, because RFC 6554 source routing includ= es compression.)

=C2=A0

--

Christopher De= arlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_____________________________________________________= _____________________

T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194<= /a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, = Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office= : Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: 23 June 2016 10:39
To: Jiazi YI; Christopher Dearlove
Cc: MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either f= rom an external partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether= you should click on any links, open any attachments or reply.<= br> For information regarding = Red Flags that you = can look out for in emails you receive, click here.
If you feel the email is s= uspicious, please follow this process.

*** WARNING ***<= br> EXTERNAL= EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization.<= /u>

=C2=A0

Coincidentally, I was reading about IPv6 sou= rce routing, and the deprecation of RH0 in RFC 5095. RFC 6554 that you refe= r to claims to have resolved the security concerns that led to that deprecation. Part of that is that RFC 6554 is on= ly defined as working in an RPL domain. Now that can probably be generalise= d to a MANET - but I don=E2=80=99t think you=E2=80=99ve done that, and so I= think that needs doing.

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m then left wondering if the secur= ity threat described in RFC 5095 applies to IPv4 source routing. (I=E2=80= =99m afraid I haven=E2=80=99t had time to dig into this, the coincidence has only just happened, and I thought better to get an incomplete question= out.) RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t discuss IPv4 at all, but the basic problem = (repeating an address in a source route as an attack) would appear to still= apply. I haven=E2=80=99t understood yet how RFC 6554 avoids this. It=E2=80=99s possible that RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t cons= ider IPv4 on the basis that most people have given up on it, or just it was= n=E2=80=99t of interest to the authors.

=C2=A0

At the minimum I think the draft needs to co= mment on extending RFC 6554 to MANETs not RPL domains. Ideally (this may or= may not cause added security considerations) someone with a better knowledge of this area (practical as well as theoret= ical) will comment on the above.

=C2=A0

--

Christopher De= arlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_____________________________________________________= _____________________

T: =C2=A0+44 (0)1245 242194<= /a> =C2=A0| =C2=A0E: chri= s.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, = Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai=

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office= : Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

=C2=A0

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com<= /a> [mailto:yi.jiaz= i@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 21 June 2016 22:24
To: Christopher Dearlove
Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, either f= rom an external partner or the internet.
Consider carefully whether= you should click on any links, open any attachments or reply.<= br> For information regarding = Red Flags that you = can look out for in emails you receive, click here.
If you feel the email is s= uspicious, please follow this process.

We will add some text to make it more precise.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

best

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Christopher Dearlov= e <c= hristopher.dearlove@gmail.com> wrote:

"Because the encoded blocks are unordered for F= EC" is, at best, only applicable to some FEC methods, it's definit= ely not universal.

-- =C2=A0

Christopher Dearlove


On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

Hi,=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christoph= er (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Comments below.

=C2=A0

Short version, still some points I think can= be improved. Down to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation of, the reactive set. (Longer t= ext below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look at what you do in you= r implementation - now see if someone could work out to do that from the te= xt. I don=E2=80=99t think they can.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our= detailed reply below.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<snip>=C2=A0


Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?=

=C2=A0

Normally, the packets are coded in different "b= locks" and those blocks are transmitted in different paths. The arrivi= ng order of those "blocks" is less important.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0

CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it hel= ps with packet re-ordering.

=C2=A0

When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or severa= l packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... b= lock-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. = Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) do= esn't really matter.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<snip>

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with chara= cterising as low data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity = by a small factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

=C2=A0

We won't claim that there will be orders of magn= itude that link capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggrega= ted throughput and load balancing.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

So what do you think of:

=C2=A0

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topo= logy by avoiding single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregate= d throughput and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. =C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase lo= w data rate links. The issues are ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if there are underutilised parts of= the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if packets do not all need = to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate networks as much as low da= ta rate ones.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text re= lated to low data rate links.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<snip>

=C2=A0

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSR= v2 we record that as well (e.g Routing Set).

=C2=A0

Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_ad= dress[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the i= nformation with an additional field? It is not used anyways.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be cal= led out. It gets used in OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d made a comment to say what = n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combine with that<= /u>

=C2=A0

Yes. we added some text on what "n" is.=C2= =A0

=C2=A0

<snip>

A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tupl= es without expiry times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss w= hen supporting sets change.=C2=A0

If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I d= islike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If depen= dent on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and implement.

=C2=A0

The update of the the Multi-path routing set is desc= ribed in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the = comments received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no expiry timer is used.=C2=A0

Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows th= e same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 = routing set, the multi-path routing set is updated.=C2=A0

In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples = are removed when the "topology graph" is changed.=C2=A0 The new t= uples are recreated "on-demand".=C2=A0

=C2=A0

CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that i= n the reactive case. (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. There = is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set?

=C2=A0

No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-pa= th Routing Set.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If not then you introduce a stutter, as the = packets are flowing and the set disappears and you need to trigger it again.

=C2=A0

Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. = But the time required is trivial, because this is only local: no additional= message exchange with other routers is required.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

Which means monitoring for that throughout a= flow, not just at its start.

=C2=A0

We don't actually have the concept "flow&qu= ot; in this extension. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary to check = if a tuple exist or not. There is no much difference from checking the FIB = for IP.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

If you do (recalculate the set when the grap= h changes) how do you know when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops.=C2=A0

And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2= =80=9D is more than is required - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a link not being used). B= ut it=E2=80=99s hard to specify.

=C2=A0

For the moment, we simply take "the topology gr= aph changes", because even links that not used might matters: for exam= ple, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that introduces a better p= ath. =C2=A0

It's true that it's possible that it's m= ore than required and could be optimised in the future, but considering it&= #39;s a reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On this point (which changes) some sort of p= ermissive wording to indicate that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t matter is probably right. The whe= n do you stop calculating question is more important - and needs text discu= ssing it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0


You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases while = waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this prot= ocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP process, why= mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

=C2=A0

Choosing which path to put in the source routing hea= der is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of co= urse, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it a= s one of the experiment points also:

=C2=A0

=C2=A0Different path-selection schedulers.=C2=A0 = By default, Round-Robin
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 scheduling is used to select a path to be used for dat= agrams.=C2=A0 In
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered:= for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher qu= ality) can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher = metrics.

=C2=A0

CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80= =99s not the round-robin that matters, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do any= thing. That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear =E2= =80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, perhaps in the applica= bility section, is needed.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

We added the following text in the applicability sta= tement:

=C2=A0

MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperab= le multi-path calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proact= ive calculation, the paths to all the destinations are calculated before ne= eded. In the reactive calculation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. The pro= active approach requires more computational resources than the reactive one= . The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the mult= i-path calculation.

=C2=A0

MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source rou= ting header. As there are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 req= uires the IP forwarding plan to be able to choose which source route to be = put in the source routing header based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, implementat= ion of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 netwo= rks, implementation of strict source routing is required following [RFC6554= ].

=C2=A0

As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case need= ed.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

regards

=C2=A0

Jiazi

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

<draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath.txt>=

=C2=A0

********************************************************************
This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its contents to any other person.
********************************************************************=


_________________________________________________= ____
This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains
information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary
and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original
recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the
intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email
in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or
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Termination is, unless a = late change that I’ve missed was made, a standard DLEP behaviour. So = if there’s an issue, it’s probably a general DLEP issue rather than just a credit window issue.

 <= /p>

That said, I think the DL= EP security model is to assume that there won’t be anything injected = on a dedicated radio (*) to router link. I don’t recall how clearly that’s said in the DLEP draft. But if that is accepted from DLEP, I = don’t think it’s new to credit window (though a reference could= be made to that).

 <= /p>

(*) DLEP uses modem. I co= ntinue to think radio, while not ideal, is a better word. This is supported= by that some non-IETF work I’m aware of (and the authors are aware of) that discussed DLEP translated modem to radio to present to = a customer community (even in quotations from the draft). However that view= didn’t gain traction in this WG.

 <= /p>

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: &nb= sp;+44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesyst= ems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.= baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP=

 <= /p>

From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana (aretana)
Sent: 21 June 2016 19:38
To: draft-ietf-manet-credit-window@ietf.org
Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org
Subject: [manet] AD Review of draft-ietf-manet-credit-window-04=

 

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Stan:

 

Hi!  How are you?=

 

I just finished reading thi= s document.  First of all, thanks for taking this work on!<= /span>

 

Please see my comments belo= w.  I think many of the comments (even the Major ones) should be easy = to address.  However, I am specially concerned about the actions (terminate) to be taken in some of the cases — which, I think, make = DLEP vulnerable.

 

After you address the Major= comments and provide a revised ID, I will want to get a review from the Tr= ansport Area, probably in parallel with the IETF Last Call (depending on where we are with the DLEP document).

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

 

Major:

 

M1. "Credit Use Reject= ed" Status.  When should this Status be used?  I'm guessing = that maybe windowing is not supported (the router understands the feature, = but doesn't support it) -- what else?  I suspect that it is up to the rec= eiver to use this status as it sees fit, is that the intent?  If so, p= lease clearly say so.  Are there any well-known reasons that might be = beneficial to mention?

 

 

M2. Both Sections 8.1.= (DLEP Destination Up Message) and 8.2. (DLEP Destination Announce Mes= sage) say that "MUST use the value in Credit Grant as the initial value…".  But given that the credit use can be rejected, t= he "MUST" is misleading.  s/MUST/SHOULD or clarify "= 230;if accepted…"

 

 

M3. It is not a requirement= that Credit Windows be always implemented in both directions, right? =

 

M3.1. Sections 5. (Ope= ration), 8.3. (DLEP Destination Up Response Message) and 8.4. (DLEP De= stination Announce Response Message) all say that after receiving a Credit Grant data item "the receiver MUST respond…with a resp= onse message that contains a Credit Grant data item".  However, S= ection 9.1. (Credit Grant) says that "the receiver MUST respond w= ith a message containing a Credit Window Status data item", which seems to be the right thing.

 

M3.2. It seems to me that (= in 8.3 and 8.4) this text should also talk about the Credit Window Status d= ata item:

M3.2.1. (in the respon= se): "…if the corresponding…message did not contain a= Credit Grant…Response message MUST NOT contain a Credit Grant (= Section 9.1) data item".

M3.2.2. "receiver of&#= 8230;Response MUST use the received Credit Grant value to initialize&#= 8230;".

 

M3.3. Related to this point= , Section 9.1. (Credit Grant) says that the "Credit Grant data it= em MAY appear in the DLEP Destination Up, Destination Announce, and Destination Update messages."  No  response messages are li= sted, which is ok.  I would suggest you stress that those are the only= messages which can contain the data item.  Either s/MAY/MAY only, or = (even better) s/MAY/MUST only   [I think the "MUST" is ok because the Operation section already talks about not every destination ne= eding credit windowing.]

 

 

M4. Credit Window Out of Sy= nc status code.  Both 8.3 and 8.4 say that if a peer "detects a m= ismatch in the presence or absence of credit window data items…M= UST terminate the session".

 

M4.1. Section 7. (DLEP= Status Codes for Credit-Window Extension) says lists the failure mode as &= quot;Continue".  Please correct that and make sure that the regis= tration request explicitly tells IANA which range to assign the status codes from.=

 

M4.2. It seems to me that u= sing a "terminate" failure mode may be overkill.  It also se= ems to me that it would be straight forward to require a Credit Grant data item to be sent after receiving this status code and let the session resyn= c on its own (or send a Credit Grant if the lack of sync is detected locall= y) — it looks like the potential impact of resetting the session may = not be justified for a single stream.  I note in the DLEP spec that even refusing to do something (Request = Denied) has a failure mode of Continue.

 

 

M5. Section 9.2. (Cred= it Window Status) says that if the "local credit counts are not s= ynchronized…MAY either…or o Issue a DLEP Destination Down = message, to clear credit counts on the session."

 

M5.1. [nit] was this i= ntended to be a bulleted list?

 

M5.2. The "MAY" i= ndicates that both actions are optional.  IOW, it says that neither ac= tion has to be performed.  If that is so, then how do we get the sessi= on back in sync?

 

M5.3. That second option (D= estination Down) could also result in the routing protocol (or anyone else = listening to DLEP) to reset their adjacency.  As I mentioned above, this action seems to be too drastic because of the effect.  Or= am I missing something?

 

M5.4. Going back to the &qu= ot;MAY either" part.  When (Why) would an implementation chose no= t to use the least intrusive option?

 

M5.5. Given the potential p= roblems with falling out to sync, why is this section not more prescriptive= : "It is recommended that implementations issue a DLEP Destination&nbs= p;Update with a Credit Window Status data item at a configurable multiple of t= he DLEP Heartbeat timer…"  Maybe s/recommended/RECOMMENDED<= o:p>

 

 

M6. Section 9.3. (Cred= it Request) 

 

M6.1. "If the correspo= nding…message for this session did not contain a Credit Grant da= ta item…then receipt of the Credit Request data item MUST be consider= ed as an error by the receiver, requiring termination of the DLEP peer sessio= n."  Same comment as before; very disruptive!

 

M6.2. There's no guidance a= s to what should be done when receiving a Credit Request.=

 

 

M7. Section 10. (Secur= ity Considerations)

 

M7.1. "The extens= ion does not introduce any additional threats above those documented i= n [DLEP]."  I disagree.  The extra opportunities to reset th= e DLEP session create a potential DoS attack: a peer can (for example) send a Credit= Request for any destination not using credits and the whole session is res= et, potentially affecting other flows.

 

M7.2. "The mitigation = strategy documented in that document is sufficient to secure operation= of this extension."  Neither "mitigation" nor "st= rategy" show up in the DLEP document — you'll have to be more specific.

 

 

 

Minor:

 

p1. For ease of tracking, p= lease number the TBD values (for example TBD1, TBD2, etc.) throughout the d= ocument to match the requests to IANA.

 

p2. Section 6 is superfluou= s, please delete it.

 

p3. "Descriptions of t= he data items are included below."  Please put a reference.<= /o:p>

 

p4. The format in Section&n= bsp;9.1. (Credit Grant) shows two "Credit Increment" fields. &nbs= p;From the explanation which indicates a "64-bit quantity), I'm a= ssuming that these are really not 2 independent fields, but one big (64-bits) "Cre= dit Increment" field.  Please fix the figure.

P4.1. The MRW/RRW in the fi= gure in Section 9.2 have the same problem.

 

p5. I don't think the refer= ence to RFC5578 is needed.  Pointing to another scheme may create conf= usion.

 

 

 

Nits:

 

n1. Please expand on first = mention: DLEP (in the abstract), RF.

 

n2. s/Dynamic Link Event Pr= otocol/Dynamic Link Exchange Protocol

 

n3. s/draft/document

 

n4. Change the order of the= sections putting "Credit Window Data Item Definitions" before &q= uot;DLEP Data Items for Credit-Window Extension".

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[86.187.169.242]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i14sm5701950wmg.7.2016.06.23.14.31.31 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Jun 2016 14:31:31 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6786D6BF-7CB7-4429-A9DB-1E7A7FF0CC54" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Christopher Dearlove In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 22:31:29 +0100 Message-Id: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> To: MANET IETF X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 21:31:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6786D6BF-7CB7-4429-A9DB-1E7A7FF0CC54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 What I didn=E2=80=99t say was that this (the RFC 6554 packet discard as = a security feature) is part of the =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do to = support this protocol=E2=80=9D rather than being this protocol itself. > On 23 Jun 2016, at 22:24, Jiazi YI wrote: >=20 > Hi Chris, Stan: >=20 > It's good point that we need to add some text about applying RFC6554 = to MANET. We will make a proposal later.=20 >=20 > Regarding the issues of "referencing an RPL RFC", the problem we have = with AODVv2 is very different from this.=20 >=20 > AODVv2 tries to reference RFC6551, which defines a set of metric types = and it states=20 >=20 > Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have unique characteristics > compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require = the > specification of new routing metrics and constraints.=20 >=20 > as the first sentence in the abstract.=20 >=20 > For olsrv2-multipath, it has a reference to RFC6554, which defines a = source routing header with address compression. Although it has "RPL" in = its title, the format itself is protocol-neutral. I would imagine if = someone want to implement DSR with IPv6, the RFC6554 would be a natural = choice.=20 > As we will restrict the header to be used only in foo-protocol routing = domain, there won't be any interoperability issue.=20 > We can, of course, proposal another RFC and ask for new "IPv6 Routing = Type" to support source routing in IPv6 by just removing RPL-related = clause in RFC6554. But it would be the same packet format, except the = "IPv6 Routing Type" number --- personally, I don't think it's necessary. = =20 >=20 > I'm having Alvaro in cc also, because it's kind of cross WG issue.=20 > Alvaro: Using source routing is not a rare case in IPv6. Only = considering MANET WG, there is DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's now off = the charter) also discussed possible extension with path accumulation.=20= > Personally, I believe having a reference to RFC6554 should be OK, with = some explanations in the draft. Your advice would be appreciated.=20 >=20 > cheers >=20 > Jiazi >=20 > On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) = > = wrote: > I think this is really a comment for Jiazi. I=E2=80=99m not suggesting = adding a reference to RFC 6554, that reference is already in the draft. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m saying that if you reference RFC 6554, you=E2=80=99re = referencing something that doesn=E2=80=99t apply unless and until you = add some text to make it apply. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Whether that is a terrible awful thing that should not be done (not my = words - in fact I don=E2=80=99t recall commenting on that aspect of = AODVv2) is up to the community to judge. >=20 > =20 >=20 > But input from the people who have implemented this draft would be = useful. Did they find RFC 6554 already in place? Already implemented and = portable to in place? Had to write in from scratch? Didn=E2=80=99t = actually use RFC 6554 but something else (e.g. deprecated RH0)? Only = implemented for IPv4? >=20 > =20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories > = __________________________________________________________________________= >=20 > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: = chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >=20 > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great = Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >=20 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: Ratliff, Stanley [mailto:sratliff@idirect.net = ]=20 > Sent: 23 June 2016 15:02 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF > Subject: RE: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > *** WARNING *** >=20 > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an = external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any = attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in = emails you receive, click here = . > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process = . >=20 > Chris, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I see your point on RFC 6554. But didn=E2=80=99t we *just* go through = an exercise with AODVv2 where that draft attempted to reference a RPL = RFC, and the consensus of the WG was that this was a =E2=80=9Cterrible, = awful thing that should not be done=E2=80=9D????? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Regards, >=20 > Stan >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 9:50 AM > To: MANET IETF > > Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Digging further, there was a = draft-reitzel-ipv4-source-routing-is-evil-00 that pointed out that IPv4 = source routing had exactly the same problems as the deprecated RH0 IPv6 = source routing, and recommended deprecating that. But the draft never = preceded further. I don=E2=80=99t know why. I have seen it indicated = that most operators drop such packets, so maybe it wasn=E2=80=99t felt = necessary. >=20 > =20 >=20 > As for why RFC 6554 avoids the RH0 problem, essentially it defines it = away: =E2=80=9Ca RPL router drops datagrams that include multiple = addresses assigned to any interfaces on that router to avoid forwarding = loops=E2=80=9D Note that=E2=80=99s not as simple as dropping datagrams = with duplicate addresses, it also includes dropping datagrams with two = addresses of the same interface - which only that router can do. >=20 > =20 >=20 > So, in order to use RFC 6554 source routing here, we need to (a) say = that a required condition is that the MANET routers support RFC 6554, = because that RFC itself only specifies this for RPL routers, and (b) = that they must support the required features in particular the datagram = suppression noted above. >=20 > =20 >=20 > But, I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect a typical router currently to do this, = because it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Can RPL router=E2=80=9D - here input = from people who have done this hands on would be useful, did they have = to add this functionality? >=20 > =20 >=20 > And for IPv4, need (loose) source routing to be supported within the = MANET, which again it may or may not be. >=20 > =20 >=20 > (Note that RFC 6554 source routing isn=E2=80=99t the same as RH0 = source routing, because RFC 6554 source routing includes compression.) >=20 > =20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories > = __________________________________________________________________________= >=20 > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: = chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >=20 > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great = Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >=20 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org = ] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christopher (UK) > Sent: 23 June 2016 10:39 > To: Jiazi YI; Christopher Dearlove > Cc: MANET IETF > Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > *** WARNING *** >=20 > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an = external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any = attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in = emails you receive, click here = . > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process = . >=20 > *** WARNING *** > EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our = organization. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Coincidentally, I was reading about IPv6 source routing, and the = deprecation of RH0 in RFC 5095. RFC 6554 that you refer to claims to = have resolved the security concerns that led to that deprecation. Part = of that is that RFC 6554 is only defined as working in an RPL domain. = Now that can probably be generalised to a MANET - but I don=E2=80=99t = think you=E2=80=99ve done that, and so I think that needs doing. >=20 > =20 >=20 > I=E2=80=99m then left wondering if the security threat described in = RFC 5095 applies to IPv4 source routing. (I=E2=80=99m afraid I haven=E2=80= =99t had time to dig into this, the coincidence has only just happened, = and I thought better to get an incomplete question out.) RFC 5095 = doesn=E2=80=99t discuss IPv4 at all, but the basic problem (repeating an = address in a source route as an attack) would appear to still apply. I = haven=E2=80=99t understood yet how RFC 6554 avoids this. It=E2=80=99s = possible that RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t consider IPv4 on the basis that = most people have given up on it, or just it wasn=E2=80=99t of interest = to the authors. >=20 > =20 >=20 > At the minimum I think the draft needs to comment on extending RFC = 6554 to MANETs not RPL domains. Ideally (this may or may not cause added = security considerations) someone with a better knowledge of this area = (practical as well as theoretical) will comment on the above. >=20 > =20 >=20 > -- >=20 > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories > = __________________________________________________________________________= >=20 > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: = chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >=20 > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great = Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 >=20 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >=20 > =20 >=20 > From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com = [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com ] On Behalf Of = Jiazi YI > Sent: 21 June 2016 22:24 > To: Christopher Dearlove > Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF > Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > *** WARNING *** >=20 > This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an = external partner or the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any = attachments or reply. > For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in = emails you receive, click here = . > If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process = . >=20 > We will add some text to make it more precise.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > best >=20 > =20 >=20 > Jiazi >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:02 AM, Christopher Dearlove = > = wrote: >=20 > "Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC" is, at best, only = applicable to some FEC methods, it's definitely not universal. >=20 > -- =20 >=20 > Christopher Dearlove >=20 >=20 > On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI > wrote: >=20 > Hi,=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) = > = wrote: >=20 > Comments below. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Short version, still some points I think can be improved. Down to one = sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation = of, the reactive set. (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. = Take a look at what you do in your implementation - now see if someone = could work out to do that from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > we clarified this in the draft. Please check the our detailed reply = below.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Normally, the packets are coded in different "blocks" and those blocks = are transmitted in different paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" = is less important.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it helps with packet re-ordering. >=20 > =20 >=20 > When FEC is applied, the encoder takes one or several packets and = produce several coded blocks (denoted block-1, block-2, ... block-n). = Those blocks are forwarded as IP datagrams in the disjoint paths. = Because the encoded blocks are unordered for FEC, the arriving order of = the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) doesn't really matter.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > >=20 > Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with characterising as low = data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies capacity by a small = factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We won't claim that there will be orders of magnitude that link = capacities span, but it would be beneficial to have aggregated = throughput and load balancing.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > So what do you think of: >=20 > =20 >=20 > MP-OLSRv2 is designed for networks with dynamic topology by avoiding = single route failure. It can also provide higher aggregated throughput = and load balancing, which is beneficial for low data rate links. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate links. The issues = are ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if = there are underutilised parts of the network. Plus of course a = redundancy issue if packets do not all need to arrive. These can all = occur in high data rate networks as much as low data rate ones. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > It makes sense. I'm OK with removing the text related to low data rate = links.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > >=20 > =20 >=20 > PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in OLSRv2 we record that = as well (e.g Routing Set). >=20 > =20 >=20 > Actually, the number of the items in the array PT_address[1...n] = already gives the hop count -- is it necessary to repeat the information = with an additional field? It is not used anyways.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be called out. It gets used in = OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I = thought I=E2=80=99d made a comment to say what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t= see here. This can combine with that >=20 > =20 >=20 > Yes. we added some text on what "n" is.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > >=20 > A major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry = times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting = sets change.=20 >=20 > If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I dislike the = reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If dependent on = packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document = - and implement. >=20 > =20 >=20 > The update of the the Multi-path routing set is described in section = 8.6. The expiry timers are removed since -07 based on the comments = received. One of the reasons is to be consistent with the OLSRv2 routing = set, in which no expiry timer is used.=20 >=20 > Generally speaking, in proactive mode, it follows the same mechanism = as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need to update the OLSRv2 routing set, = the multi-path routing set is updated.=20 >=20 > In reactive mode, all the Multi-path routing tuples are removed when = the "topology graph" is changed. The new tuples are recreated = "on-demand".=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that in the reactive case. = (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) = You want a set, you generate it on demand. There is a change to the = Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set? >=20 > =20 >=20 > No, at this point, we only clear the entire Multi-path Routing Set.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are flowing and = the set disappears and you need to trigger it again. >=20 > =20 >=20 > Yes, it necessary to trigger the calculation again. But the time = required is trivial, because this is only local: no additional message = exchange with other routers is required.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not just at its = start. >=20 > =20 >=20 > We don't actually have the concept "flow" in this extension. For each = datagram, yes, it's necessary to check if a tuple exist or not. There is = no much difference from checking the FIB for IP.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how do you know = when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow = stops.=20 >=20 > And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more than is = required - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for example = the increase in metric of a link not being used). But it=E2=80=99s hard = to specify. >=20 > =20 >=20 > For the moment, we simply take "the topology graph changes", because = even links that not used might matters: for example, the decrease in = metric of a not used metric that introduces a better path. =20 >=20 > It's true that it's possible that it's more than required and could be = optimised in the future, but considering it's a reactive approach, I = believe it's acceptable.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive wording to = indicate that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99= t matter is probably right. The when do you stop calculating question is = more important - and needs text discussing it.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 >=20 > You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases = while waiting. >=20 > The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this = protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP = process, why mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used? >=20 > =20 >=20 > Choosing which path to put in the source routing header is = olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are multiple of them. Of = course, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers = won't impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it as one of the = experiment points also: >=20 > =20 >=20 > Different path-selection schedulers. By default, Round-Robin > scheduling is used to select a path to be used for datagrams. = In > some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be considered: for > example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher quality) can > transfer more datagrams compared to paths with higher metrics. >=20 > =20 >=20 > CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s not the round-robin that = matters, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do anything. That=E2=80=99s what = needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs = to do=E2=80=9D section early on, perhaps in the applicability section, = is needed. >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > We added the following text in the applicability statement: >=20 > =20 >=20 > MP-OLSRv2 supports two different, but interoperable multi-path = calculation approaches: proactive and reactive. In the proactive = calculation, the paths to all the destinations are calculated before = needed. In the reactive calculation, only the paths to desired = destination(s) are calculated on demand. The proactive approach requires = more computational resources than the reactive one. The reactive = approach requires the IP forwarding plan to trigger the multi-path = calculation. >=20 > =20 >=20 > MP-OLSRv2 forwards datagrams using the source routing header. As there = are multiple paths to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP = forwarding plan to be able to choose which source route to be put in the = source routing header based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. = For IPv4 networks, implementation of loose source routing is required = following [RFC0791]. For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source = routing is required following [RFC6554]. >=20 > =20 >=20 > As usual, an updated draft is attached, in case needed.=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > regards >=20 > =20 >=20 > Jiazi >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > >=20 > =20 >=20 > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** >=20 >=20 > _____________________________________________________ > This electronic message and any files transmitted with it contains > information from iDirect, which may be privileged, proprietary > and/or confidential. It is intended solely for the use of the = individual > or entity to whom they are addressed. If you are not the original > recipient or the person responsible for delivering the email to the > intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email > in error, and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or > copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you received this = email > in error, please delete it and immediately notify the sender. > _____________________________________________________ >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet = >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --Apple-Mail=_6786D6BF-7CB7-4429-A9DB-1E7A7FF0CC54 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
What I didn=E2=80=99t say was that this (the = RFC 6554 packet discard as a security feature) is part of the =E2=80=9Cwha= t IP needs to do to support this protocol=E2=80=9D rather than being = this protocol itself.

On 23 Jun 2016, at 22:24, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> = wrote:

Hi Chris, Stan:

It's good point that we need to add = some text about applying RFC6554 to MANET. We will make a proposal = later. 

Regarding the issues of "referencing an RPL RFC", the problem = we have with AODVv2 is very different from this. 

AODVv2 tries to = reference RFC6551, which defines a set of metric types and it = states 

     Low-Power and Lossy Networks (LLNs) have = unique characteristics
    =  compared with traditional wired and ad hoc networks that require = the
    =  specification of new routing metrics and = constraints. 

as the first sentence in the = abstract. 

For olsrv2-multipath, it has a reference to = RFC6554, which defines a source routing header with address compression. = Although it has "RPL" in its title, the format itself is = protocol-neutral. I would imagine if someone want to implement DSR with = IPv6, the RFC6554 would be a natural choice. 
As we will restrict the header to be used only in = foo-protocol routing domain, there won't be any interoperability = issue. 
We can, of course, proposal = another RFC and ask for new "IPv6 Routing Type" to support source = routing in IPv6 by just removing RPL-related clause in RFC6554. But it = would be the same packet format, except the "IPv6 Routing Type" number = --- personally, I don't think it's necessary.  

I'm = having Alvaro in cc also, because it's kind of cross WG = issue. 
Alvaro: Using source = routing is not a rare case in IPv6. Only considering MANET WG, there is = DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's now off the charter) also discussed = possible extension with path accumulation. 
Personally, I believe having a reference to = RFC6554 should be OK, with some explanations in the draft. Your advice = would be appreciated. 

cheers

Jiazi

On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 4:08 PM, = Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

I think this is really a comment for Jiazi. I=E2=80=99m = not suggesting adding a reference to RFC 6554, that reference is already = in the draft.

 

I=E2=80=99m saying that if you reference RFC 6554, = you=E2=80=99re referencing something that doesn=E2=80=99t apply unless = and until you add some text to make it apply.

 

Whether that is a terrible awful thing that should not be = done (not my words - in fact I don=E2=80=99t recall commenting on that = aspect of AODVv2) is up to the community to judge.

 

But input from the people who have implemented this draft = would be useful. Did they find RFC 6554 already in place? Already = implemented and portable to in place? Had to write in from scratch? Didn=E2=80=99t actually use RFC 6554 but = something else (e.g. deprecated RH0)? Only implemented for IPv4?

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_______________________________________________________________= ___________

T:  +44 (0)1245 = 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology = Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, = GU2 7YP

 

From: = Ratliff, Stanley [mailto:sratliff@idirect.net]
Sent: 23 June 2016 15:02
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF
Subject: RE: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

 

 

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Chris,

 

I see your point on RFC 6554. But didn=E2=80=99t we *just* go through an exercise with AODVv2 where that draft = attempted to reference a RPL RFC, and the consensus of the WG was that this was a =E2=80=9Cterrible, = awful thing that should not be done=E2=80=9D?????

 

Regards,

Stan

 

From: = manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2016 9:50 AM
To: MANET IETF <manet@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

 

Digging further, there was a = draft-reitzel-ipv4-source-routing-is-evil-00 that pointed out that IPv4 = source routing had exactly the same problems as the deprecated RH0 IPv6 source routing, and recommended deprecating that. But the = draft never preceded further. I don=E2=80=99t know why. I have seen it = indicated that most operators drop such packets, so maybe it wasn=E2=80=99= t felt necessary.

 

As for why RFC 6554 avoids the RH0 problem, essentially it = defines it away: =E2=80=9Ca RPL router drops datagrams that include = multiple addresses assigned to any interfaces on that router to avoid forwarding loops=E2=80=9D Note that=E2=80=99s = not as simple as dropping datagrams with duplicate addresses, it also = includes dropping datagrams with two addresses of the same interface - = which only that router can do.

 

So, in order to use RFC 6554 source routing here, we need = to (a) say that a required condition is that the MANET routers support = RFC 6554, because that RFC itself only specifies this for RPL routers, and (b) that they must = support the required features in particular the datagram suppression = noted above.

 

But, I wouldn=E2=80=99t expect a typical router currently = to do this, because it won=E2=80=99t be =E2=80=9Can RPL router=E2=80=9D = - here input from people who have done this hands on would be useful, did they have to add this functionality?

 

And for IPv4, need (loose) source routing to be supported = within the MANET, which again it may or may not be.

 

(Note that RFC 6554 source routing isn=E2=80=99t the same = as RH0 source routing, because RFC 6554 source routing includes = compression.)

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_______________________________________________________________= ___________

T:  +44 (0)1245 = 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology = Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, = GU2 7YP

 

From: manet = [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
Sent: 23 June 2016 10:39
To: Jiazi YI; Christopher Dearlove
Cc: MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

 

 

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Coincidentally, I was reading about IPv6 source routing, = and the deprecation of RH0 in RFC 5095. RFC 6554 that you refer to = claims to have resolved the security concerns that led to that deprecation. Part of that is that RFC 6554 is = only defined as working in an RPL domain. Now that can probably be = generalised to a MANET - but I don=E2=80=99t think you=E2=80=99ve done = that, and so I think that needs doing.

 

I=E2=80=99m then left wondering if the security threat = described in RFC 5095 applies to IPv4 source routing. (I=E2=80=99m = afraid I haven=E2=80=99t had time to dig into this, the coincidence has only just happened, and I thought better to get an incomplete = question out.) RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t discuss IPv4 at all, but the = basic problem (repeating an address in a source route as an attack) = would appear to still apply. I haven=E2=80=99t understood yet how RFC 6554 avoids this. It=E2=80=99s possible that RFC 5095 doesn=E2=80=99t = consider IPv4 on the basis that most people have given up on it, or just = it wasn=E2=80=99t of interest to the authors.

 

At the minimum I think the draft needs to comment on = extending RFC 6554 to MANETs not RPL domains. Ideally (this may or may = not cause added security considerations) someone with a better knowledge of this area (practical as well as = theoretical) will comment on the above.

 

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
_______________________________________________________________= ___________

T:  +44 (0)1245 = 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology = Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, = GU2 7YP

 

From: yi.jiazi@gmail.com [mailto:yi.jiazi@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Jiazi YI
Sent: 21 June 2016 22:24
To: Christopher Dearlove
Cc: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); MANET IETF
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

 

 

*** WARNING ***

This message originates from outside our organisation, = either from an external partner or the internet.
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We will add some text to make it = more precise. 

 

best

 

Jiazi

 

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 1:02 AM, = Christopher Dearlove <christopher.dearlove@gmail.com> = wrote:

"Because the encoded blocks are = unordered for FEC" is, at best, only applicable to some FEC methods, = it's definitely not universal.

--  

Christopher Dearlove


On 20 Jun 2016, at 23:41, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

Hi, 

 

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:56 PM, = Dearlove, Christopher (UK) <chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Comments below.

 

Short version, still some points I think can be improved. = Down to one sticking point, on deciding on how to handle changes to, and cessation of, the reactive set. = (Longer text below.) I think this is a real issue. Take a look at what = you do in your implementation - now see if someone could work out to do = that from the text. I don=E2=80=99t think they can.

 

 

we clarified this in the draft. = Please check the our detailed reply below. 

 

<snip> 


Page 5, second bullet. How does FEC help with packet re-ordering?

 

Normally, the packets are coded = in different "blocks" and those blocks are transmitted in different = paths. The arriving order of those "blocks" is less important. 

 

CMD> I still don=E2=80=99t see how it helps with packet = re-ordering.

 

When FEC is applied, the encoder = takes one or several packets and produce several coded blocks (denoted = block-1, block-2, ... block-n). Those blocks are forwarded as IP = datagrams in the disjoint paths. Because the encoded blocks are = unordered for FEC, the arriving order of the encoded blocks of the same packet(s) = doesn't really matter. 

 

 

<snip>

Page 6, first paragraph. I still disagree with = characterising as low data rate links. At most the protocol multiplies = capacity by a small factor, not the orders pf magnitude that link capacities span.

 

We won't claim that there will be = orders of magnitude that link capacities span, but it would be = beneficial to have aggregated throughput and load balancing. 

 

So what do you think of:

 

MP-OLSRv2 is designed for = networks with dynamic topology by avoiding single route failure. It can = also provide higher aggregated throughput and load balancing, which is = beneficial for low data rate links.  

 

CMD> Still not convinced by the phrase low data rate = links. The issues are ones of load relative to network capacity, and in particular if there are underutilised parts = of the network. Plus of course a redundancy issue if packets do not all = need to arrive. These can all occur in high data rate networks as much = as low data rate ones.

 

 

It makes sense. I'm OK with = removing the text related to low data rate links. 

 

<snip>

 

PT_=E2=80=A6 What about hop count? Elsewhere in = OLSRv2 we record that as well (e.g Routing Set).

 

Actually, the number of the items = in the array PT_address[1...n] already gives the hop count -- is it = necessary to repeat the information with an additional field? It is not = used anyways. 

 

CMD> That it=E2=80=99s there could be called out. It = gets used in OLSRv2 as a suggested tie-breaker, and some tools might use it. I thought I=E2=80=99d made a comment to say = what n is, which I don=E2=80=99t see here. This can combine with = that

 

Yes. we added some text on what = "n" is. 

 

<snip>

A= major omission is discussion of expiry of new Tuples without expiry = times. If proactive you can (but don=E2=80=99t) discuss when supporting = sets change. 

If reactive it=E2=80=99s rather a mess (a reason I = dislike the reactive mechanism). When to discard? When to recreate? If = dependent on packet flow then that=E2=80=99s another interaction with IP to document - and implement.

 

The update of the the Multi-path = routing set is described in section 8.6. The expiry timers are removed = since -07 based on the comments received. One of the reasons is to be = consistent with the OLSRv2 routing set, in which no expiry timer is used. 

Generally speaking, in proactive = mode, it follows the same mechanism as OLSRv2: when ever there is a need = to update the OLSRv2 routing set, the multi-path routing set is = updated. 

In reactive mode, all the = Multi-path routing tuples are removed when the "topology graph" is = changed.  The new tuples are recreated "on-demand". 

 

CMD> OK, let=E2=80=99s think about that in the reactive = case. (Proactive is easy, but it needs to be said, which it isn=E2=80=99t.) You want a set, you generate it on demand. = There is a change to the Topology Graph. So do you recalculate the set?

 

No, at this point, we only clear = the entire Multi-path Routing Set. 

 

If not then you introduce a stutter, as the packets are = flowing and the set disappears and you need to trigger it again.

 

Yes, it necessary to trigger the = calculation again. But the time required is trivial, because this is = only local: no additional message exchange with other routers is = required. 

 

Which means monitoring for that throughout a flow, not = just at its start.

 

We don't actually have the = concept "flow" in this extension. For each datagram, yes, it's necessary = to check if a tuple exist or not. There is no much difference from = checking the FIB for IP. 

 

If you do (recalculate the set when the graph changes) how = do you know when to stop calculating it? That depends on knowing when the flow stops. 

And =E2=80=9Cthe Topology Graph changes=E2=80=9D is more = than is required - some changes to the graph would have no effect (for example the increase in metric of a link not being = used). But it=E2=80=99s hard to specify.

 

For the moment, we simply take = "the topology graph changes", because even links that not used might = matters: for example, the decrease in metric of a not used metric that = introduces a better path.  

It's true that it's possible that = it's more than required and could be optimised in the future, but = considering it's a reactive approach, I believe it's acceptable. 

 

On this point (which changes) some sort of permissive = wording to indicate that you can avoid making changes when you know they don=E2=80=99t matter is probably right. The = when do you stop calculating question is more important - and needs text = discussing it. 

 


You could when acting reactively forward by usual means in all cases = while waiting.

The actual packet forwarding by round-robin is an IP process, not this = protocol. Needs to not be buried in 8.4. And if it=E2=80=99s an IP = process, why mandate exactly how it=E2=80=99s used?

 

Choosing which path to put in the = source routing header is olsrv2-multipath specific, because there are = multiple of them. Of course, using round-robin is not mandatory -- using other schedulers won't impact the compatibility. Actually, we put it as = one of the experiment points also:

=

 

 Different path-selection = schedulers.  By default, Round-Robin
      scheduling is used to select a path to be used for = datagrams.  In
      some scenarios, weighted scheduling can be = considered: for
      example, the paths with lower metrics (i.e., higher = quality) can
      transfer more datagrams compared to paths with = higher metrics.

 

CMD> This is missing my point. It=E2=80=99s not the = round-robin that matters, it=E2=80=99s that IP needs to do anything. That=E2=80=99s what needs not to be buried. Putting together a clear = =E2=80=9Cwhat IP needs to do=E2=80=9D section early on, perhaps in the = applicability section, is needed.

 

 

We added the following text in = the applicability statement:

 

MP-OLSRv2 supports = two different, but interoperable multi-path calculation approaches: = proactive and reactive. In the proactive calculation, the paths to all = the destinations are calculated before needed. In the reactive = calculation, only the paths to desired destination(s) are calculated on demand. The = proactive approach requires more computational resources than the = reactive one. The reactive approach requires the IP forwarding plan to = trigger the multi-path calculation.

 

MP-OLSRv2 forwards = datagrams using the source routing header. As there are multiple paths = to each destination, MP-OLSRv2 requires the IP forwarding plan to be = able to choose which source route to be put in the source routing header = based on the path scheduler defined by MP-OLSRv2. For IPv4 networks, = implementation of loose source routing is required following [RFC0791]. = For IPv6 networks, implementation of strict source routing is required = following [RFC6554].

 

As usual, an updated draft is = attached, in case needed. 

 

regards

 

Jiazi

 

 

 

<draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-multipath.txt>

 

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= --Apple-Mail=_6786D6BF-7CB7-4429-A9DB-1E7A7FF0CC54-- From nobody Thu Jun 23 16:10:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB2712D8B6 for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:10:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uzHJsklxA5xD for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 899B812D51C for ; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 16:10:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10886; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466723424; x=1467933024; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=EXZP6Zah6SxdhLBOZqUJSjNPKedz2f7On43080aN16Y=; b=V4SoG6cgzyVxu9g+r0AgzC6g5v/Id+zRq7f6GATTnTd8wt9K7HOtnqWr I9oWzqSO7ckEQe24ln6QPl4kkgO5+tDQrxZM2dD6Xjgl+mdBb/giFX48f qAvjDJSNN2oluk92rQns8cxCtb5cuGReGCCrXrp2RrmFfrDoPtobdR3s7 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D2AQAUbGxX/5JdJa1dgnBOVn0GrjKHB?= =?us-ascii?q?YUBgXsihXYCgTI4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RNAQEEeRACAQg/ByERFBECBA4FiBYDFw7?= =?us-ascii?q?DIQ2DfQEBAQEBAQEDAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXBYYohE2CQ4dYBY4xhRqFADQBhgeGK?= =?us-ascii?q?4F+gWmIAYU5hlOBPIduAR42gggcgUxuiQF/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,518,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="289390977" Received: from rcdn-core-10.cisco.com ([173.37.93.146]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jun 2016 23:10:14 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by rcdn-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5NNAE2r021299 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:10:14 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:10:13 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 23 Jun 2016 18:10:13 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Jiazi YI , "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , "Ratliff, Stanley" Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4y90juFWZxy0qmGpyLOtNgNp/yxcyAgAAbBYCAAHFbAIAABbgAgAF2ygCAAl/jAIAARf0AgAADiYCAAAGuAIAAeeOA///aeIA= Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:10:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.252.64] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D391D9FD1309C9aretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2016 23:10:26 -0000 --_000_D391D9FD1309C9aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/23/16, 5:24 PM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on beha= lf of Jiazi YI" on behalf of= ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote: Jiazi: Hi! Disclaimer: I'm jumping in the middle of the thread here... ... I'm having Alvaro in cc also, because it's kind of cross WG issue. Alvaro: Using source routing is not a rare case in IPv6. Only considering M= ANET WG, there is DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's now off the charter) also = discussed possible extension with path accumulation. Personally, I believe having a reference to RFC6554 should be OK, with some= explanations in the draft. Your advice would be appreciated. I don't think that "referencing RFC6554" is as simple as referencing any ot= her RFC. First of all, there's the (already mentioned) issue of the RPL-sp= ecific language in RFC6554, which means that (potentially) extensive update= s would have to be put in place to clearly have MANET (OLSR or otherwise) r= outers apply it properly. Then there is the huge issue of RH0 being deprecated deprecated [rfc5095]. = RFC6554 went through significant discussion at the time (not just within r= oll, but in 6man/v6ops, etc.) because it is basically resurrecting function= ality that the IETF already said shouldn't be. Clearly, RFC6554 defies spe= cific RPL-related behaviors, for example "RPL routers implement a strict so= urce route policy where each and every IPv6 hop between the source and dest= ination of the source route is specified within the SRH" -- IOW, roll clear= ly defined use cases and conditions that required source routing and could = be controlled in the network. I think that the use cases and justification= s for a MANET network are different. I don't think that putting MANET-spec= ific language as an update to RFC6554 would be enough for the IETF to appro= ve - it feels to me like trying to run around the process. Roll is not the only WG that has successfully justified needs for source ro= uting functionality. The spring WG is in the process of also adding IPv6 e= xtensions for source routing [1] [2] -- it justified the need and (similar = to RFC6554) includes segment routing-speficic behavior to reduce concerns a= bout rfc5095. I believe that to add source routing functionality to anything new (beyond = rpl and segment routing networks), we will have to go through the same proc= ess: justify the functionality/needs and work with 6man on the extension. If I read this thread correctly, part of the reason for referencing RFC6554= is to use the format and other functionality (compression?) in MANET netwo= rks. I don't see (provided the right justification) a reason for not reuse= the packets and compression mechanisms specified there (if that is what MA= NET needs/wants). Having said all that, I think that a good first step would be to talk to th= e 6man Chairs about the need/intent. They will probably want clear justifi= cation (use cases) and, eventually, the specification (which I think can po= int to RFC6554 for packet format, etc). I think both could be covered I a = single document. I suggest having the WG Chairs do that initial approach. Now to a slightly separate topic. Even though the WG (in the updated chart= er [3]) is responsible to work on "maintenance of OLSR", this work really g= oes beyond my definition of "maintenance" because of the significant effort= that may be needed (not just in writing, but cross-WG coordination, etc.).= I really want the WG to focus on the specifically chartered items and hop= e that we can complete them within the milestone dates. To be clear: I'm n= ot asking you not to do this work, I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appro= priately and this work (draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath) being currently tagged= as Experimental doesn't seem to raise in priority to me [*]. Thanks! Alvaro. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ [*] I doubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's alread= y defied in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort. I of course may be wrong = and the Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply refe= rence RFC6554. --_000_D391D9FD1309C9aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 6/23/16, 5:24 PM, "yi.ji= azi@gmail.com on behalf of Jiazi YI" <yi.jiazi@gmail.com on behalf of ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote:

Jiazi:

Hi!

Disclaimer:  I'm jumping in the middle of the thread here…<= /div>

…
I'm having Alvaro in cc also, because it's kind = of cross WG issue. 
Alvaro: Using source routing is not a rare case = in IPv6. Only considering MANET WG, there is DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's= now off the charter) also discussed possible extension with path accumulat= ion. 
Personally, I believe having a reference to RFC6= 554 should be OK, with some explanations in the draft. Your advice would be= appreciated. 

I don't think that "referencing RFC6554" is as simple as ref= erencing any other RFC.  First of all, there's the (already mentioned)= issue of the RPL-specific language in RFC6554, which means that (potential= ly) extensive updates would have to be put in place to clearly have MANET (OLSR or otherwise) routers apply it properly.

Then there is the huge issue of RH0 being deprecated deprecated [rfc50= 95].  RFC6554 went through significant discussion at the time (not jus= t within roll, but in 6man/v6ops, etc.) because it is basically resurrectin= g functionality that the IETF already said shouldn't be.  Clearly, RFC6554 defies specific RPL-related beha= viors, for example "RPL routers implement a strict source route policy= where each and every IPv6 hop between the source and destination of the so= urce route is specified within the SRH" -- IOW, roll clearly defined use cases and conditions that required source ro= uting and could be controlled in the network.  I think that the use ca= ses and justifications for a MANET network are different.  I don't thi= nk that putting MANET-specific language as an update to RFC6554 would be enough for the IETF to approve — it fe= els to me like trying to run around the process.

Roll is not the only WG that has successfully justified needs for sour= ce routing functionality.  The spring WG is in the process of also add= ing IPv6 extensions for source routing [1] [2] -- it justified the need and= (similar to RFC6554) includes segment routing-speficic behavior to reduce concerns about rfc5095.


I believe that to add source routing functionality to anything new (be= yond rpl and segment routing networks), we will have to go through the same= process: justify the functionality/needs and work with 6man on the extensi= on.

If I read this thread correctly, part of the reason for referencing RF= C6554 is to use the format and other functionality (compression?) in MANET = networks.  I don't see (provided the right justification) a reason for= not reuse the packets and compression mechanisms specified there (if that is what MANET needs/wants).


Having said all that, I think that a good first step would be to talk = to the 6man Chairs about the need/intent.  They will probably want cle= ar justification (use cases) and, eventually, the specification (which I th= ink can point to RFC6554 for packet format, etc).  I think both could be covered I a single document.  I sug= gest having the WG Chairs do that initial approach.


Now to a slightly separate topic.  Even though the WG (in the upd= ated charter [3]) is responsible to work on "maintenance of OLSR"= , this work really goes beyond my definition of "maintenance" bec= ause of the significant effort that may be needed (not just in writing, but cross-WG coordination, etc.).  I really want the WG t= o focus on the specifically chartered items and hope that we can complete t= hem within the milestone dates.  To be clear: I'm not asking you not t= o do this work, I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately and this work (draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath) being currently = tagged as Experimental doesn't seem to raise in priority to me [*].

Thanks!

Alvaro.



[*] I doubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's a= lready defied in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort.  I of course may= be wrong and the Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to s= imply reference RFC6554.
--_000_D391D9FD1309C9aretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jun 24 01:55:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3774912D9F9 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:55:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.126 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.126 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dBK5bv5F3_iG for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta1.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE56E12D6AA for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 01:55:51 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos; i="5.26,518,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217"; a="82144599" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 24 Jun 2016 09:55:42 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,518,1459810800"; d="scan'208,217";a="123384663" Received: from glkxh0003v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.34]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 24 Jun 2016 09:55:42 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0003V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:55:42 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , Jiazi YI , "Ratliff, Stanley" Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4vIPs5E88YPkOnu3lAZD3QM5/yYTeAgAAlw0CAAGadAIAABbgAgAF2ygCAAm368IAARMRA///2qoCAABDskIAAaqaAgAAdd4CAALBxEA== Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:55:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1E0AGLKXM0002VGREEN_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 08:55:56 -0000 --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1E0AGLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While I don't have anything concrete to bring to the WG at this time, and m= ight never, in discussion on the charter the chairs gave the impression, to= me at least, that OLSRv2 maintenance didn't exclude new items. How much any such new item would impact other work would, I agree, be an is= sue. Here we do (at the last minute, and partly by chance - though someone = outside the WG would probably have spotted the issue later) have something = that's cross-WG and is therefore a bigger issue. But I would hope that some= thing that is self-contained would be acceptable. And while I've had my iss= ues with this draft, they've been about making it better (in some places, g= ood enough). -- Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories __________________________________________________________________________ T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com] Sent: 24 June 2016 00:10 To: Jiazi YI; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Ratliff, Stanley Cc: MANET IETF; Justin Dean Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 *** WARNING *** This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an exter= nal partner or the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply. For information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you= receive, click here. If you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process. On 6/23/16, 5:24 PM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on beha= lf of Jiazi YI" on behalf of= ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote: Jiazi: Hi! Disclaimer: I'm jumping in the middle of the thread here... ... I'm having Alvaro in cc also, because it's kind of cross WG issue. Alvaro: Using source routing is not a rare case in IPv6. Only considering M= ANET WG, there is DSR, and AODVv2 (although it's now off the charter) also = discussed possible extension with path accumulation. Personally, I believe having a reference to RFC6554 should be OK, with some= explanations in the draft. Your advice would be appreciated. I don't think that "referencing RFC6554" is as simple as referencing any ot= her RFC. First of all, there's the (already mentioned) issue of the RPL-sp= ecific language in RFC6554, which means that (potentially) extensive update= s would have to be put in place to clearly have MANET (OLSR or otherwise) r= outers apply it properly. Then there is the huge issue of RH0 being deprecated deprecated [rfc5095]. = RFC6554 went through significant discussion at the time (not just within r= oll, but in 6man/v6ops, etc.) because it is basically resurrecting function= ality that the IETF already said shouldn't be. Clearly, RFC6554 defies spe= cific RPL-related behaviors, for example "RPL routers implement a strict so= urce route policy where each and every IPv6 hop between the source and dest= ination of the source route is specified within the SRH" -- IOW, roll clear= ly defined use cases and conditions that required source routing and could = be controlled in the network. I think that the use cases and justification= s for a MANET network are different. I don't think that putting MANET-spec= ific language as an update to RFC6554 would be enough for the IETF to appro= ve - it feels to me like trying to run around the process. Roll is not the only WG that has successfully justified needs for source ro= uting functionality. The spring WG is in the process of also adding IPv6 e= xtensions for source routing [1] [2] -- it justified the need and (similar = to RFC6554) includes segment routing-speficic behavior to reduce concerns a= bout rfc5095. I believe that to add source routing functionality to anything new (beyond = rpl and segment routing networks), we will have to go through the same proc= ess: justify the functionality/needs and work with 6man on the extension. If I read this thread correctly, part of the reason for referencing RFC6554= is to use the format and other functionality (compression?) in MANET netwo= rks. I don't see (provided the right justification) a reason for not reuse= the packets and compression mechanisms specified there (if that is what MA= NET needs/wants). Having said all that, I think that a good first step would be to talk to th= e 6man Chairs about the need/intent. They will probably want clear justifi= cation (use cases) and, eventually, the specification (which I think can po= int to RFC6554 for packet format, etc). I think both could be covered I a = single document. I suggest having the WG Chairs do that initial approach. Now to a slightly separate topic. Even though the WG (in the updated chart= er [3]) is responsible to work on "maintenance of OLSR", this work really g= oes beyond my definition of "maintenance" because of the significant effort= that may be needed (not just in writing, but cross-WG coordination, etc.).= I really want the WG to focus on the specifically chartered items and hop= e that we can complete them within the milestone dates. To be clear: I'm n= ot asking you not to do this work, I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appro= priately and this work (draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath) being currently tagged= as Experimental doesn't seem to raise in priority to me [*]. Thanks! Alvaro. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ [*] I doubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's alread= y defied in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort. I of course may be wrong = and the Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply refe= rence RFC6554. ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** --_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1E0AGLKXM0002VGREEN_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

While I don’t have = anything concrete to bring to the WG at this time, and might never, in disc= ussion on the charter the chairs gave the impression, to me at least, that OLSRv2 maintenance didn’t exclude new items.<= /span>

 <= /p>

How much any such new ite= m would impact other work would, I agree, be an issue. Here we do (at the l= ast minute, and partly by chance - though someone outside the WG would probably have spotted the issue later) have something that= 217;s cross-WG and is therefore a bigger issue. But I would hope that somet= hing that is self-contained would be acceptable. And while I’ve had m= y issues with this draft, they’ve been about making it better (in some places, good enough).

 <= /p>

--

Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engineer
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
____________________________________= ______________________________________

T: &nb= sp;+44 (0)1245 242194  |  E: chris.dearlove@baesyst= ems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford= Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.= baesystems.com/ai

BAE Systems Applied Intellig= ence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451

Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP=

 <= /p>

From: Alvaro Retana (aretana) [mailto:aretana@cisco.com]
Sent: 24 June 2016 00:10
To: Jiazi YI; Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Ratliff, Stanley
Cc: MANET IETF; Justin Dean
Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09

 

 

*** WARNING ***=

This message originates from outside our organ= isation, either from an external partner or the internet.
Co= nsider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachment= s or reply.
Fo= r information regarding Red Flags that you can look out for in emails you rec= eive, click here.
If= you feel the email is suspicious, please follow this process.

On 6/23/16, 5:24 PM, "= yi.jiazi@gmail.com on behalf of J= iazi YI" <yi.jiazi@gmail.com<= /a> on behalf of ietf@jiaziyi.com> = wrote:

 

Jiazi:

 

Hi!

 

Disclaimer:  I'm jumpi= ng in the middle of the thread here…

 

…

I'm having Alvaro in cc als= o, because it's kind of cross WG issue. 

Alvaro: Using source routin= g is not a rare case in IPv6. Only considering MANET WG, there is DSR, and = AODVv2 (although it's now off the charter) also discussed possible extension with path accumulation. 

Personally, I believe havin= g a reference to RFC6554 should be OK, with some explanations in the draft.= Your advice would be appreciated. 

 

I don't think that "re= ferencing RFC6554" is as simple as referencing any other RFC.  Fi= rst of all, there's the (already mentioned) issue of the RPL-specific langu= age in RFC6554, which means that (potentially) extensive updates would have to= be put in place to clearly have MANET (OLSR or otherwise) routers apply it= properly.

 

Then there is the huge issu= e of RH0 being deprecated deprecated [rfc5095].  RFC6554 went through = significant discussion at the time (not just within roll, but in 6man/v6ops, etc.) because it is basically resurrecting functionality th= at the IETF already said shouldn't be.  Clearly, RFC6554 defies specif= ic RPL-related behaviors, for example "RPL routers implement a strict = source route policy where each and every IPv6 hop between the source and destination of the source route is specified wi= thin the SRH" -- IOW, roll clearly defined use cases and conditions th= at required source routing and could be controlled in the network.  I = think that the use cases and justifications for a MANET network are different.  I don't think that putting MANET-= specific language as an update to RFC6554 would be enough for the IETF to a= pprove — it feels to me like trying to run around the process.

 

Roll is not the only WG tha= t has successfully justified needs for source routing functionality.  = The spring WG is in the process of also adding IPv6 extensions for source routing [1] [2] -- it justified the need and (similar to RFC655= 4) includes segment routing-speficic behavior to reduce concerns about = ;rfc5095.

 

 

I believe that to add sourc= e routing functionality to anything new (beyond rpl and segment routing net= works), we will have to go through the same process: justify the functionality/needs and work with 6man on the extension.

 

If I read this thread corre= ctly, part of the reason for referencing RFC6554 is to use the format and o= ther functionality (compression?) in MANET networks.  I don't see (provided the right justification) a reason for not reuse the pa= ckets and compression mechanisms specified there (if that is what MANET nee= ds/wants).

 

 

Having said all that, I thi= nk that a good first step would be to talk to the 6man Chairs about the nee= d/intent.  They will probably want clear justification (use cases) and, eventually, the specification (which I think can point to RFC6= 554 for packet format, etc).  I think both could be covered I a single= document.  I suggest having the WG Chairs do that initial approach.

 

 

Now to a slightly separate = topic.  Even though the WG (in the updated charter [3]) is responsible= to work on "maintenance of OLSR", this work really goes beyond my definition of "maintenance" because of the significant effort= that may be needed (not just in writing, but cross-WG coordination, etc.).=  I really want the WG to focus on the specifically chartered items an= d hope that we can complete them within the milestone dates.  To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, I want t= he WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately and this work (draft-ietf-olsrv2-m= ultipath) being currently tagged as Experimental doesn't seem to raise in p= riority to me [*].

 

Thanks!

 

Alvaro.

 

 

 

[*] I doubt that 6man will = want to put in an extension (even if it's already defied in RFC6554) for an= Experimental effort.  I of course may be wrong and the Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply reference R= FC6554.

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--_000_B31EEDDDB8ED7E4A93FDF12A4EECD30D923D1E0AGLKXM0002VGREEN_-- From nobody Fri Jun 24 02:16:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2E0E12D9FA for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:16:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MDoPMVge-etX for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x233.google.com (mail-lf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF06112D8EF for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id l188so111085878lfe.2 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:16:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=H5P0kyisB3OiuDv4328AlHP2F4+ixOO5zWROzaLY9fg=; b=hAZ0+FunX6zSJ5+fUU42CkTNQfvrrllHXDvMTrtqPcdksvPCQmtWcJxeXs1aH8Xn4u 21zr688ERRHXS33nPtrvpqnZgqNB/1fDFC4U1uyCup62nliYCk1fTsVngAG3lwJegXxH BcZE/d+LWmZrwKZFFgtIt3zS9NwUM+TpMeYyG0+TaIo3N5PwcErdhEDOnpkrJnthx8op UcXWewP2ULaCzeWhX1vAtp5f9Ju/XyweHpS2pjjJQ9Gn6TKxgdZI10phqnk/xUcy+Qf3 dd0fZVea9wUQR0CLJ3CcE6F2HKo0xv/ixLtytCLyj4+9+5UJXrJ6L/PaRKZ/I+Znb7h4 mOZg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=H5P0kyisB3OiuDv4328AlHP2F4+ixOO5zWROzaLY9fg=; b=To7FzpWiYYEuG0kZfMXg02ZN8z2pQWaoZM5vALL2+U3/xCyPyQ+2h08ZKk9hjtAv3F aWMzXj+I0xEfeDK+SKHr6VaIylzRto+FwlWfhJz7Osq+vUB8rVD0Gf6ZZeRIxmB8ilRn BWJV6Vu9Uo8Qrq4Z4X21SydhVfGjkPu1jsPG5XgysE8npZ3kwwUzvZozufwtZ9ny588Y zbIoWka7ur+eWZpsthoB+KRI8SWjDYvrldsNaLKjEP4gbnRKuJDIfHAJYUrjQeDciJWZ yYjo32/k3G2NwFv5GoVilLdboV92YIDN6z6D56eqirbUmw4e1NNVuQ5zE6PfA2l4ImJK TUYg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tI1D2gaLiRd+zFwbIEvCjMiXihcRSqd9ZiXILRH8lPIPEiocVBH55fcdYUsfljraVCMb/aJIcZzA/mCOg== X-Received: by 10.46.1.196 with SMTP id f65mr938118lji.24.1466759769570; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:16:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.231 with HTTP; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 02:16:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:16:07 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: uInZ_heo7PzkNhamcGbeN-e_Els Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142b99e0941600536029fea Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:16:14 -0000 --001a1142b99e0941600536029fea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hi Alvaro: Thanks very much for your advices. > If I read this thread correctly, part of the reason for referencing > RFC6554 is to use the format and other functionality (compression?) in > MANET networks. I don't see (provided the right justification) a reason > for not reuse the packets and compression mechanisms specified there (if > that is what MANET needs/wants). > Yes, correct. > > > Having said all that, I think that a good first step would be to talk to > the 6man Chairs about the need/intent. They will probably want clear > justification (use cases) and, eventually, the specification (which I think > can point to RFC6554 for packet format, etc). I think both could be > covered I a single document. I suggest having the WG Chairs do that > initial approach. > We will discuss with the WG chairs to see how to communicate with the 6man chairs and ask for their advices. > > > Now to a slightly separate topic. Even though the WG (in the updated > charter [3]) is responsible to work on "maintenance of OLSR", this work > really goes beyond my definition of "maintenance" because of the > significant effort that may be needed (not just in writing, but cross-WG > coordination, etc.). I really want the WG to focus on the specifically > chartered items and hope that we can complete them within the milestone > dates. To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, I want the WG > Chairs to prioritize appropriately and this work > (draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath) being currently tagged as Experimental > doesn't seem to raise in priority to me [*]. > The multipath routing in MANET has attracted lots of interests in academia. olsrv2-multipath has already several implementations, verified in both field tests and simulations. We believe now it's the right time to have it clearly specified and request for more experience from the community -- that's why we prudently aim for experimental track. Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't think it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the charter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several extensions for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANET WG is responsible for the *maintenance* of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181], NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444], and their *extensions*.", instead of listing possible extensions explicitly. regards Jiazi > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-ipv6-use-cases > [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-segment-routing-header > [3] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ > > [*] I doubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's > already defied in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort. I of course may be > wrong and the Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to > simply reference RFC6554. > --001a1142b99e0941600536029fea Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Alvaro:

Thanks very much for your advices.=C2=A0

<snip>=C2=A0
If I read this thread correctly, part of the reason for referencing RF= C6554 is to use the format and other functionality (compression?) in MANET = networks.=C2=A0 I don't see (provided the right justification) a reason= for not reuse the packets and compression mechanisms specified there (if that is what MANET needs/wants).

Yes, correct.=C2=A0
=C2=A0


Having said all that, I think that a good first step would be to talk = to the 6man Chairs about the need/intent.=C2=A0 They will probably want cle= ar justification (use cases) and, eventually, the specification (which I th= ink can point to RFC6554 for packet format, etc).=C2=A0 I think both could be covered I a single document.=C2=A0 I sug= gest having the WG Chairs do that initial approach.

We will discuss with the WG chairs to see how to commu= nicate with the 6man chairs and ask for their advices.=C2=A0
=C2= =A0


Now to a slightly separate topic.=C2=A0 Even though the WG (in the upd= ated charter [3]) is responsible to work on "maintenance of OLSR"= , this work really goes beyond my definition of "maintenance" bec= ause of the significant effort that may be needed (not just in writing, but cross-WG coordination, etc.).=C2=A0 I really want the WG t= o focus on the specifically chartered items and hope that we can complete t= hem within the milestone dates.=C2=A0 To be clear: I'm not asking you n= ot to do this work, I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately and this work (draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath) being currently = tagged as Experimental doesn't seem to raise in priority to me [*].

The multipath routing in MANET has= attracted lots of interests in academia. olsrv2-multipath has already seve= ral implementations, verified in both field tests and simulations.=C2=A0 We= believe now it's the right time to have it clearly specified and reque= st for more experience from the community -- that's why we prudently ai= m for experimental track.=C2=A0

Of course, As a WG= , the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't think it would = preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the charter also. In= fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several extensions for OLSRv2= were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANET WG is r= esponsible for the maintenance of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181],
NHDP = [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444],=C2=A0=
and their extensions.", instead of listing possible = extensions explicitly.=C2=A0

regards
Jiazi
=C2=A0

--001a1142b99e0941600536029fea-- From nobody Fri Jun 24 04:40:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EAEC12D0E2 for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 04:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vH_Vwa7M62oN for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 04:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A843812B04D for ; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 04:40:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=6384; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1466768428; x=1467978028; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=2NRIWwjKkIrERBSuFEFa17PlqytVE7sgqKGrhWv7U3o=; b=U8JASFzc1gZeyrYX1zCA7SVwF6+GmPpJt9Z1xQL152tY1F5JaMVafoWG QC7aynwriZ+XPaPHlkR/WjlkYAbAVxCiRkPfzrdpO+MpvfJs05W5Wd0Ib zJajgeBd9xfYitPHNhxNWpVEisXefv7hsHW088G9+KnnDzNhhuzrkyae4 M=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BiAgDzGm1X/49dJa1dgnBOgVMGrhmHB?= =?us-ascii?q?oUBgXuGGAKBNjgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhE0BAQR5EAIBCD8HIREUEQIEDgWIFgMXwjw?= =?us-ascii?q?Ng30BAQEBAQEBAwEBAQEBAQEBAR6GKIRNgkOCM4UlBY4yhRqFADQBjDKCAY8ji?= =?us-ascii?q?A+HbgEeNoIIHIFMbogxfwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,520,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="289589117" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Jun 2016 11:40:25 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (xch-rcd-003.cisco.com [173.37.102.13]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5OBePNs013358 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:40:25 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-003.cisco.com (173.37.102.13) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 06:40:24 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 06:40:24 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Jiazi YI Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHRxb4y90juFWZxy0qmGpyLOtNgNp/yxcyAgAAbBYCAAHFbAIAABbgAgAF2ygCAAl/jAIAARf0AgAADiYCAAAGuAIAAeeOA///aeICAAOxJgP//5TyA Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:40:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D3929075130AE7aretanaciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 11:40:30 -0000 --_000_D3929075130AE7aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 6/24/16, 5:16 AM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on beha= lf of Jiazi YI" on behalf of= ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote: Hi! Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't t= hink it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the ch= arter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several extensi= ons for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANE= T WG is responsible for the maintenance of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181], NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444], and their extensions.", instead of listing possible extensions explicitly. As I said: "To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, I want the= WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately..." That's it! If the WG wants to = take this work on, I don't have a problem - it is with in the charter. Let= 's just not forget about the other work we have... The second part of the point I tried to make was, I think, more important: = extensions to IPv6 are not within the manet WG's charter, but they belong = to 6man. It would probably be more effective if the source routing work wa= s in the Standards Track. I'm assuming that Multi-path is just one use cas= e for source routing, but there are probably more. I also wrote: "[*] I do= ubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's already defied= in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort. I of course may be wrong and the = Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply reference RF= C6554." Note that what I'm suggesting is not to put the Multi-path work in the Stan= dards Track (that is a separate discussion) - but to justify source routing= for MANET networks as a larger need (including multi-path, but bigger than= that). Thanks! Alvaro. --_000_D3929075130AE7aretanaciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <60DB44E5C132DA4F9DDB6DE62EF02C10@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi!

Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't t= hink it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the ch= arter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several extensi= ons for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANET WG is responsible for the<= span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> maintenance of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181],
NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444],&= nbsp;
and their extensions.", instead of listing possible extensions explicitly. 

As I said: "To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, = I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately…"  That's = it!  If the WG wants to take this work on, I don't have a problem R= 12; it is with in the charter.  Let's just not forget about the other work we have… 

The second part of the point I tried to make was, I think, more import= ant:  extensions to IPv6 are not within the manet WG's ch= arter, but they belong to 6man.  It would probably be more effective i= f the source routing work was in the Standards Track.  I'm assuming th= at Multi-path is just one use case for source routing, but there are probably more.  I also wrote: "[*] I doubt that 6m= an will want to put in an extension (even if it's already defied in RFC6554= ) for an Experimental effort.  I of course may be wrong and the Experi= mental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply reference RFC6554."

Note that what I'm suggesting is not to put the Multi-path work in the= Standards Track (that is a separate discussion) — but to justify source routing for MANET networks=  as a larger need (including multi-path, but bigger than that).

Thanks!

Alvaro.
--_000_D3929075130AE7aretanaciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Jun 24 09:03:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6542A12DC7D; Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:00:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160624160042.10933.561.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 09:00:42 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org Subject: [manet] manet - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 96 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2016 16:00:42 -0000 Dear Justin Dean, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. manet Session 1 (1:00:00) Wednesday, Afternoon Session I 1400-1530 Room Name: Charlottenburg I size: 80 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks Area Name: Routing Area Session Requester: Justin Dean Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 1 Hour Number of Attendees: 30 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: rtgarea gaia roll homenet pim 6lo Second Priority: rtgwg i2rs spring pce lwig Third Priority: netconf anima idr Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Mon Jun 27 03:01:01 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D5B012B071; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 03:01:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4ZgxXhqo9W-j; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 03:00:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com [173.37.86.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EB5C12D0B5; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 03:00:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1727; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1467021651; x=1468231251; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: content-id:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=NzgB05ndXFvAal4UowvSzWYZjNI3QBf7owvP0AcMbaM=; b=Br5zmsbyN8XZOEJ11NH+TueqAk6HVT/S2CL6hFFFVAdSW2AtBYRPpiMK eVc8t3lqA62cS9t1lQI2Za5R6eTktAX0Wez4XoMxGrxkV+fF4vLpOXC6Y xLY1Hgjt2cPyCfvtI45bijl4/6BtH2BpHI85mCsuq6Dq51H09TM5qpBEz 0=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BlBwB7+HBX/4cNJK1bgz5WfQa5K4JxF?= =?us-ascii?q?wuFF18CgSw7EQEBAQEBAQFlJ4RNAQEEAQEBNzQbAgEINhAnCxsBBgMCBAESFIg?= =?us-ascii?q?cDr4iAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEdhiiETYE5iGIFmQEBhgeIL4I3jG2Pf?= =?us-ascii?q?gE0IIIVgVtuAYh3fwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,536,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="119373810" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 27 Jun 2016 10:00:49 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (xch-aln-004.cisco.com [173.36.7.14]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5RA0ndA027946 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:00:49 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-ALN-004.cisco.com (173.36.7.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 05:00:49 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 05:00:49 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "manet@ietf.org" , "babel@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [gaia] GAIA RG Meeting Agenda - July 21, 2016 (IETF 96) Thread-Index: AQHR0FSREAYA3HsqykGckTlF86lSF5/9JaWA Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:00:49 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <9368B80CDB590E449A48487FD32C45F8@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [manet] FW: [gaia] GAIA RG Meeting Agenda - July 21, 2016 (IETF 96) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:01:00 -0000 FYI.. On 6/27/16, 5:15 AM, "gaia on behalf of Matthew Ford" wrote: >Folks, > >This is the draft agenda for our meeting which will take place during >IETF 96 in Berlin next month. I have included links to the remote >participation tools. I hope to see some of you there, both physically and >virtually. > >Regards, >Mat > >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >Preliminary Agenda >GAIARG Meeting @ IETF-96 >Berlin, Germany >Thursday, July 21, 2016 (CEST) >14:00-16:00 Thursday Afternoon session I >Location: Schoeneberg >Audio: http://ietf96streaming.dnsalias.net/ietf/ietf968.m3u >Video: http://www.meetecho.com/ietf96/gaia >Etherpad: http://etherpad.tools.ietf.org:9000/p/notes-ietf-96-gaia >Jabber: gaia@jabber.ietf.org > >Welcome, Agenda Bashing, Minutes taker, Blue sheets, Status > Chairs > 10 mins > >Refugee Hotspot - providing Internet connectivity to Refugees and Migrants > Niels ten Oever & Shane Kerr > 20 mins > >The dual role of community networks: Internet access vs. local services > Panayotis Antoniadis > 30 mins > >FreeSurf: Application-Centric Wireless Access > Zhen Cao > 20 mins > >Sustainability in guifi.net: Initial results of cost sharing > Roger Baig > 20 mins=20 > >Wi-5: Advanced Features for Low-cost Wi-Fi APs > Jose Saldana, University of Zaragoza. > 5 mins + Q&A > >Open discussion of next steps for GAIARG > Chairs > 15 mins > >_______________________________________________ >gaia mailing list >gaia@irtf.org >https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia From nobody Mon Jun 27 10:31:29 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A79FB12D669 for ; 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Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:31:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.79.13.200 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2016 10:31:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160616124721.10516.61164.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <5762AA32.9030204@cs.tcd.ie> From: James Nguyen Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 13:31:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , "manet@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ef634a3323c053645e37a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] Stephen Farrell's Block on charter-ietf-manet-03-05: (with BLOCK) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 17:31:27 -0000 --001a113ef634a3323c053645e37a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I notice that the MANET Management Document is back on the work item list, but I thought that we wouldn't work on this as we discussed during the last interim. Please advise. Work Items: ... - Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and managing MANET networks. Milestones ... - Nov 2016 MANET Management Document (Informational) Thanks, James On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/20/16, 12:53 PM, "Abdussalam Baryun" > wrote: > > AB: > > Hi! > > =E2=80=A6 > > > >> As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, whic= h >> are the focused work items the WG has agreed on. I read the milestones = as >> an indication of priorities =E2=80=94 with the description in the charte= r of what >> the items are. >> > > Milestones in my opinion are not priority indications, because in project > management work-items mostly work in parallel, so milestones do not show > priority, and in the past practice of MANET WG there are many later > milestones that were advanced old milestones. I suggest that IETF and IES= G > change plans for approvals to add priority especial for groups like MANET > WG. > > > I think that those are great comments for the WG Chairs to keep in mind, > after all, there are the ones responsible for the progress of the WG > (rfc2418). Besides using milestones, the WG Chairs can use any other > project management methodology to keep the WG on track. > > On the other hand, I don't think the IEFT/IESG should make special > provisions for any specific WG. Having said that, the WG Chairs and I wi= ll > be working together to make sure the focus of the WG is applied to the > agreed upon priorities. > > > Some of your other suggestions (I left them below for reference) I think > may fit in items that are already in the charter. The WG may want to > discuss others and their priority =E2=80=94 but that is something I will = leave to > the Chairs and the WG to decide. > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > > > >> Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list? Or >> maybe items that you think don't belong? Or is the milestones indicatio= n >> of priorities not clear enough? >> > > Yes, we worked MANET unicast manet routing; reactive and proactive, > experimentals and standards but submitted successfully only the proactive > as standard, so we need to work multicast manet routing now. So we need > multicast reactive and multicast proactive routing, usually multicast > routing is the most important routing in MANET environment. However, it w= as > a great plan that MANET WG started in the past with unicast and now the n= ew > issue is multicast routing. We need multicast for reactive routing and > multicast for proactive, we got a proposal before for a multicast routing > which was presented in IETF89 meeting. > > Therefore, this group needs to focus on two new routing: 1- Multicast > Reactive Routing, 2- Multicast Proactive Routing, in addition we may add = 3- > Hybrid Routing. The multicast routing is with high priority, because we > only have very simple multicast, which MANET needs multicast because most > use cases depend on group communication. > > IMHO, our group needs an information draft for MANET considerations and > use cases. We had separate considerations in RFCs and we need to add uses > of our past done protocols and looking to the future work use cases. This > draft needs to work in parallel with updating RFC2501, which needs update > specially that it ignore the new MANET packet and MANET interfaces. For > example, in MANET WG the 5148 was just for jitter, and to solve issues > related to a protocol, but we need a full picture of other considerations= , > and one place to have all consideration, not many documents with > considerations. However, we need to separate a one item that covers MANET > security considerations related to the MANET protocol, and security relat= ed > to the MANET packet. Therefore, my overall suggestion is that the work > items with priority are as follows: > > 1- MANET considerations and use cases (highest priority, p=3D1) > 2- update of RFC2501 (p=3D2) > 3- Multicast Reactive Routing (p=3D3) > 4- Multicast Proactive Routing (p=3D3) > 5- MANET security considerations (p=3D4) > 6- Maintenance of OLSRv2 (p=3D3) > > Best Regards > AB > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > --=20 James Nguyen Email: james.huy.nguyen@gmail.com --001a113ef634a3323c053645e37a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I notice that the MANET Management D= ocument is back on the work item list, but I thought that we wouldn't w= ork on this as we discussed during the last interim.=C2=A0 Please advise.
Work Items:
...

- Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and=20
managing MANET networks.=C2=A0

Milestones
...
- Nov = 2016 =20 =20 =20 MANET Management Document (Informational) =20

Thanks,

James

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <= span dir=3D"ltr"><aretana@cisco.com> wrote:
On 6/20/16, 12:53 PM, "Abdussalam Baryun" <abdussalambaryun@gmail.co= m> wrote:

AB:

Hi!

=E2=80=A6


As you can see, there are specific milestones listed at the bottom, wh= ich are the focused work items the WG has agreed on.=C2=A0 I read the miles= tones as an indication of priorities =E2=80=94 with the description in the = charter of what the items are.

Milestones in my opinion are not priority indications, because in proj= ect management work-items mostly work in parallel, so milestones do not sho= w priority, and in the past practice of MANET WG there are many later miles= tones that were advanced old milestones. I suggest that IETF and IESG change plans for approvals to add priority es= pecial for groups like MANET WG.

I think that those are great comments for the WG Chairs to keep= in mind, after all, there are the ones responsible for the progress of the= WG (rfc2418). =C2=A0 Besides using milestones, the WG Chairs can use any o= ther project management methodology to keep the WG on track.

On the other hand, I don't think the IEFT/IESG should make special= provisions for any specific WG.=C2=A0 Having said that, the WG Chairs and = I will be working together to make sure the focus of the WG is applied to t= he agreed upon priorities.


Some of your other suggestions (I left them below for reference) I thi= nk may fit in items that are already in the charter.=C2=A0 The WG may want = to discuss others and their priority =E2=80=94 but that is something I will= leave to the Chairs and the WG to decide.

Thanks!

Alvaro.




Do you have specific work items that you think belong on the list?=C2= =A0 Or maybe items that you think don't belong?=C2=A0 Or is the milesto= nes indication of priorities not clear enough?

Yes, we worked MANET unicast manet routing; reactive and proactive, ex= perimentals and standards but submitted successfully only the proactive as = standard, so we need to work multicast manet routing now. So we need multic= ast reactive and multicast proactive routing, usually multicast routing is the most important routing in MANET = environment. However, it was a great plan that MANET WG started in the past= with unicast and now the new issue is multicast routing. We need multicast= for reactive routing and multicast for proactive, we got a proposal before for a multicast routing which was = presented in IETF89 meeting.

Therefore, this group needs to focus on two new routing: 1- Multicast = Reactive Routing, 2- Multicast Proactive Routing, in addition we may add 3-= Hybrid Routing. The multicast routing is with high priority, because we on= ly have very simple multicast, which MANET needs multicast because most use cases depend on group communication= .

IMHO, our group needs an information draft for MANET considerations an= d use cases. We had separate considerations in RFCs and we need to add uses= of our past done protocols and looking to the future work use cases. This = draft needs to work in parallel with updating RFC2501, which needs update specially that it ignore the new= MANET packet and MANET interfaces. For example, in MANET WG the 5148 was j= ust for jitter, and to solve issues related to a protocol, but we need a fu= ll picture of other considerations, and one place to have all consideration, not many documents with considera= tions. However, we need to separate a one item that covers MANET security c= onsiderations related to the MANET protocol, and security related to the MA= NET packet. Therefore, my overall suggestion is that the work items with priority are as follows:

1- MANET considerations and use cases=C2=A0=C2=A0 (highest priority, p= =3D1)
2- update of RFC2501=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (p=3D2)
3- Multicast Reactive Routing (p=3D3)
4- Multicast Proactive Routing (p=3D3)
5- MANET security considerations (p=3D4)
6- Maintenance of OLSRv2 (p=3D3)

Best Regards
AB

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet




--
James Nguyen
Email: james.huy.nguyen= @gmail.com
--001a113ef634a3323c053645e37a-- From nobody Tue Jun 28 04:03:43 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A36C812D0CE; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 04:03:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: "Mirja Kuehlewind" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.24.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160628110337.24151.88400.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 04:03:37 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_charte?= =?utf-8?q?r-ietf-manet-03-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 11:03:37 -0000 Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-06: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry for my late comment: On "reporting statistics by traffic classification" MANET should probably cooperate with IPPM. Should that be mentioned in the charter? From nobody Tue Jun 28 08:25:02 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F90112D512; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 08:25:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jx3H_NSg8B8P; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 08:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D16812D135; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 08:24:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=242; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1467127499; x=1468337099; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=5DOWXBUd3Y+hvS9SY2o3lkhcCV19XTWwT6QlvyQRoeA=; b=hhm8Pc8ep2cHAKaDUrrQfzIhaUqRFQb+bphhOdqy8ZMa96KKoaB/Tdxt EpjyDsvfcpqhnZn43dZIFj5bexwugocj8mlLtjJzNa15iuZLtwKAU2cqk DGKlsVYhLpmMPR39ItPzFAa3uSC8WUCr5zmqZmzvnEX2QZEYEwUSanV33 o=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BPBQDylXJX/49dJa1bgz6BUwa4HYIPg?= =?us-ascii?q?XuGGAKBLzkTAQEBAQEBAWUnhE0BAQR5EAIBCA44MiUCBAENBYgww14BAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEchiiETYobAQSOM4UahTUBjjmBUwGNUI9+ASACMoNwb?= =?us-ascii?q?ogxfwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,541,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="289203818" Received: from rcdn-core-7.cisco.com ([173.37.93.143]) by alln-iport-5.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 28 Jun 2016 15:24:58 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (xch-rcd-005.cisco.com [173.37.102.15]) by rcdn-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5SFOwoE027544 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:24:58 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-005.cisco.com (173.37.102.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:24:57 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Tue, 28 Jun 2016 10:24:57 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Mirja Kuehlewind , The IESG Thread-Topic: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind's_No_Objection_on_charter-ietf-manet-03-?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?06:_(with_COMMENT)?= Thread-Index: AQHR0Sy+FLkoid4VDk+t3B8z0fr7L5//ENgA Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:24:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160628110337.24151.88400.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160628110337.24151.88400.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] =?iso-8859-1?q?Mirja_K=FChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_char?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ter-ietf-manet-03-06=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?= X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2016 15:25:01 -0000 On 6/28/16, 7:03 AM, "Mirja Kuehlewind" wrote: >On "reporting statistics by traffic classification" MANET should probably >cooperate with IPPM. Should that be mentioned in the charter? Done! Thanks!! Alvaro. From nobody Thu Jun 30 00:11:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietf.org Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AF412DA51; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:11:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Benoit Claise" To: "The IESG" X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.25.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 00:11:34 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: manet@ietf.org, manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 07:11:34 -0000 Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for this addition: - Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and managing MANET networks. This is long overdue, and promised for so many years. Regards, Benoit From nobody Thu Jun 30 02:24:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B5212D736; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 02:24:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Trfx17WgAs8o; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 02:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta1.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C4F812D9EE; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 02:24:22 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,551,1459810800"; d="scan'208";a="83979502" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 30 Jun 2016 10:24:20 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,551,1459810800"; d="scan'208";a="124140260" Received: from glkxh0004v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.35]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 30 Jun 2016 10:24:20 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.104]) by GLKXH0004V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.35]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:24:20 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: Benoit Claise Thread-Topic: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHR0p6upCer+4ca8U+ND10ao19QYKABrbsQ Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:24:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:24:25 -0000 Given that the only standards track routing protocol that has been defined = in the group is OLSRv2, there was an OLSRv2 management draft produced (I wa= s not an author). It was blocked from proceeding by the then AD (I forget w= hich one). So I think the suggestion that promises were made (and implicitly, that the= y were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those authors (two of the OLSR= v2 author team). There wasn't even the suggestion that the document evolve = to something else, just blocked. -- = Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories __________________________________________________________________________ T: =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =A0| =A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP -----Original Message----- From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise Sent: 30 June 2016 08:12 To: The IESG Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: = (with COMMENT) ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi= nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro= m the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions o= n reporting suspicious email messages. -------------------------------------------------------- *** WARNING *** EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for charter-ietf-manet-03-07: No Objection When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all email= addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introduc= tory paragraph, however.) The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENT: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for this addition: - Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and managi= ng MANET networks. = This is long overdue, and promised for so many years. Regards, Benoit _______________________________________________ manet mailing list manet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From nobody Thu Jun 30 08:20:47 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E680812DA96 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=herberg.name Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aySeq6QFNa-b for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x232.google.com (mail-io0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6658F12DAA0 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x232.google.com with SMTP id t74so74784027ioi.0 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=herberg.name; s=dkim; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y8Da+9+M7a3gQngL4rVr0oHzPx81SWVynBHpokm+a/I=; b=uqS+nEyK3KJKSPwAjUUes3eujf48cEqZW7WFBTmfI2nijE1QoyasArZU+OWvbZJyav 9lsPW3nak08adjXBfCrb6ilpamzDBPliCdvvDcip7XmOysMFW8m0eyhK+CBQZmqC+KoX hPT1Leh47k9nVSRTAoSNtkyKzsB3tD1rbE86g= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Y8Da+9+M7a3gQngL4rVr0oHzPx81SWVynBHpokm+a/I=; b=FmMWIGg/bTXM/x5EydZNrlZUnfTOps+T1ONC7dvkeWTgXXdioByBQ22YefdL4SZz4/ YxvwOYjWM2ViD3gyAYRLWMxY/wkAOFoI4jJMboUcJuv1jrH+2w9cFZw8IfP05zO1MrQu /c9dqOwZ0mJFon8WFbdl+ShL2k6w4tDSiWBG1Nz1g1CciW2sZV56qcEQF6bjbfTw3NNz r8k2E90nJTkhwmNeBblVdusTEx3/Hf+nGYDJYXGfM0N+o2Z5ThJtqc0Tcx5vmYmyO7n1 4kP8oKh9PeqrrxTEuDmX9mnTJA6hdz4w2awDkKBOoB5NctbO1i4DgMgWxxguN5WR5INw TB6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIGU9Sly/HmRw95p3AHQIFSJMs3R+X/YTNEa93CWbtLcYysZSup8KBctbgDBFdZA+4V0vuScvWLbLS/WQ== X-Received: by 10.107.3.104 with SMTP id 101mr15467406iod.40.1467300042691; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.36.86.146 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Ulrich Herberg Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:20:42 -0700 Message-ID: To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: Benoit Claise , "manet@ietf.org" , Thomas Heide Clausen , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:20:46 -0000 I agree with Christopher that this is an unfair statement. We delivered what was promised, but Benoit had a much wider document in mind, despite the fact that no other standard routing protocols have been developed in this WG. I am not sure how to produce a document that describes to how manage MANETs in general for standard protocols that don't even exist. So I also don't know how this item in the charter will be addressed. And who will write that document? I can't speak for the other co-author of the management draft we have written (and which was killed by AD), but I have no interest in writing a new draft that addresses best practices for hypothetical, not existing routing standards in MANETs. We can resubmit our draft explaining best practices for how to manage OLSRv2 networks if requested by the AD, since that is what this WG knows how to do. Regards Ulrich On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 2:24 AM, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: > Given that the only standards track routing protocol that has been define= d in the group is OLSRv2, there was an OLSRv2 management draft produced (I = was not an author). It was blocked from proceeding by the then AD (I forget= which one). > > So I think the suggestion that promises were made (and implicitly, that t= hey were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those authors (two of the OL= SRv2 author team). There wasn't even the suggestion that the document evolv= e to something else, just blocked. > > -- > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories > _________________________________________________________________________= _ > > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com > > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddo= w, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP > > -----Original Message----- > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Benoit Claise > Sent: 30 June 2016 08:12 > To: The IESG > Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07= : (with COMMENT) > > ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message ori= ginates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or f= rom the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attach= ments or reply. > Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions= on reporting suspicious email messages. > -------------------------------------------------------- > > *** WARNING *** > EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. > > > Benoit Claise has entered the following ballot position for > charter-ietf-manet-03-07: No Objection > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all ema= il addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this introd= uctory paragraph, however.) > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-manet/ > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > COMMENT: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thank you for this addition: > - Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and mana= ging MANET networks. > > This is long overdue, and promised for so many years. > > Regards, Benoit > > > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet > > > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** > From nobody Thu Jun 30 08:23:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92E212D198; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:23:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SXOXhF_edqZU; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2861C12D1A1; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 08:23:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1078; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1467300232; x=1468509832; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=GcDCWxWx4csCQh8+vk4+kZrFT+wREhpkd1qWr5IXW6c=; b=FFIFDgfS+406IPynSLTfHCE3L7HfF0fv06kHBVVLjiKzpoAL68219RrB WJ6sEDLcdqDXo+jriA4rQi6zf/+Hnxw0oy+31TGys9Lan3gvBnvU/xBUN D44voMcMzAT+Q8Z2IG3AMyvcWwEnSIClJlNp6pdc9SP45gA5hYXbQdeyu k=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BDAgArOXVX/4cNJK1bgz5WfQa3NoIPg?= =?us-ascii?q?XwkhXMCgTs4FAEBAQEBAQFlJ4RNAQEEOj8QAgEINhAyJQIEAQ0FiDAOw0YBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEXBYYohE2KGwEEk1WFNgGGB4g5jyqQBAEeNoI7g?= =?us-ascii?q?TVuiEJ/AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,552,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="123608414" Received: from alln-core-2.cisco.com ([173.36.13.135]) by rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 30 Jun 2016 15:23:51 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (xch-rcd-006.cisco.com [173.37.102.16]) by alln-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5UFNpdj029150 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:23:51 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-006.cisco.com (173.37.102.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:23:50 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:23:50 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" , "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" Thread-Topic: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHR0p6merD+zouQbUmglT88FjjU3KACEO+AgAAhXgA= Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:23:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <645F22EB5CC0FA43813CBF2937AD0CA9@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 15:23:55 -0000 On 6/30/16, 5:24 AM, "manet on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" wrote: Christopher: Hi! >Given that the only standards track routing protocol that has been >defined in the group is OLSRv2, there was an OLSRv2 management draft >produced (I was not an author). It was blocked from proceeding by the >then AD (I forget which one). The document wasn't blocked, I declared it "Dead" -- which basically means that even though publication was requested the IESG is no longer tracking it. >So I think the suggestion that promises were made (and implicitly, that >they were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those authors (two of the >OLSRv2 author team). There wasn't even the suggestion that the document >evolve to something else, just blocked. If anyone else is interested, take a look at the history of the document, which includes a note about the reasoning at the time: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-management-snapsho t/history/ Alvaro. From nobody Thu Jun 30 09:06:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4587812D1A2; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:06:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.947 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.947 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CJGDpqo9CqJI; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.86.77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A95AB12D82F; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:06:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1677; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1467302801; x=1468512401; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=Qib9cxx63bSN9IE9s1kTNQSrkfLsrS/mFb85w1+lOyA=; b=LbdqIjPgIhoSQx4YkmNfvzUa3Mrb8KwjRr+sKutr2aq5/RiFnzWHg4kI /ggPPOuxZZ4iE/WIBCtiTfbhr+1rrkbcgbiqs1t8qVFO7SLw9/v1aQiJN oFVG++fKm8MWZmFiZZlMID50OOWtyvt6byPHa7dXJePflMnsxw4pEHUYd 4=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BDAgBJQ3VX/5xdJa1bgz6BUwa3N4IPg?= =?us-ascii?q?XyGFwKBOzgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhE0BAQQ6PxACAQg2EDIlAgQOBYgww1QBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAwEBAQEBAQEBH4YohE2KGwEEjgCFVYU2AY5AgWqEVohqkAQBHjaCO4E1bohCf?= =?us-ascii?q?wEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,552,1459814400"; d="scan'208";a="120789384" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rcdn-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 30 Jun 2016 16:06:13 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (xch-rcd-007.cisco.com [173.37.102.17]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u5UG6DiP015182 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:06:13 GMT Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com (173.36.7.12) by XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com (173.37.102.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:06:12 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) by XCH-ALN-002.cisco.com ([173.36.7.12]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 11:06:12 -0500 From: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" To: Ulrich Herberg , "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Thread-Topic: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHR0p6merD+zouQbUmglT88FjjU3KACEO+AgABjkwD//8mkAA== Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:06:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.2.160219 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.117.15.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <4BE3F4D429966144A0ADCA7F50C9B018@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , "manet@ietf.org" , Thomas Heide Clausen , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:06:43 -0000 On 6/30/16, 11:20 AM, "manet on behalf of Ulrich Herberg" wrote: Ulrich: Hi! >I am not sure how to produce a document >that describes to how manage MANETs in general for standard protocols >that don't even exist. >So I also don't know how this item in the charter will be addressed. Please note that the charter item says: "Document outlining challenges and best practices for deploying and managing MANET networks." It doesn't say anything about a network using protocol A or protocol B. You and I (and the rest of the WG of course) know that the protocols developed in this WG are not the only manet protocols that exist -- in fact, the protocols discussed in the WG are not the only protocols that exist. And a routing protocol is not the only part that needs management in a network. To be clear, the item is not about managing OLSRv2 in a network (or any other protocol). MANET networks are not fully understood outside this WG, which sometimes results in improper (or even unrealistic) expectations of what is required/possible. This document gives the WG the opportunity to clearly spell out the "challenges and best practices". Even though the WG is inside the routing area and generally focuses on routing protocols, it is clearly the one place where people with deployment and management of MANET networks work -- which is why it is chartered with this work. I am sure that the WG will benefit from the experience of deploying OLSRv2, which obviously should be taken into consideration. However, the intent goes beyond a single protocol... Thanks! Alvaro. From nobody Thu Jun 30 09:22:13 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8976B12D1AD; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RDNS_NONE=0.793] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bjub5ZXXr-Tl; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ukmta1.baesystems.com (unknown [20.133.0.55]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0A812D135; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 09:22:08 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,552,1459810800"; d="scan'208";a="84184350" Received: from unknown (HELO baemasmds016.greenlnk.net) ([10.15.207.101]) by ukmta1.baesystems.com with ESMTP; 30 Jun 2016 17:22:07 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,552,1459810800"; d="scan'208";a="124233962" Received: from glkxh0002v.greenlnk.net ([10.109.2.33]) by baemasmds016.greenlnk.net with ESMTP; 30 Jun 2016 17:22:07 +0100 Received: from GLKXM0002V.GREENLNK.net ([169.254.5.56]) by GLKXH0002V.GREENLNK.net ([10.109.2.33]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 17:22:07 +0100 From: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" , "Benoit Claise (bclaise)" Thread-Topic: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) Thread-Index: AQHR0p6upCer+4ca8U+ND10ao19QYKABrbsQgABjEgCAACADEA== Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:22:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.109.62.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:22:12 -0000 Sorry, I'm sure there is a subtlety in being declared dead rather than bloc= ked, but I don't know what it is. But as I said, I wasn't an author, so was= n't involved in any detailed discussions over why it died. -- = Christopher Dearlove Senior Principal Engineer BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories __________________________________________________________________________ T: =A0+44 (0)1245 242194 =A0| =A0E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow,= Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. www.baesystems.com/ai BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP -----Original Message----- From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana (are= tana) Sent: 30 June 2016 16:24 To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Benoit Claise (bclaise) Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-= 07: (with COMMENT) ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message origi= nates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro= m the internet. Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions o= n reporting suspicious email messages. -------------------------------------------------------- *** WARNING *** EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. On 6/30/16, 5:24 AM, "manet on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" wrote: Christopher: Hi! >Given that the only standards track routing protocol that has been = >defined in the group is OLSRv2, there was an OLSRv2 management draft = >produced (I was not an author). It was blocked from proceeding by the = >then AD (I forget which one). The document wasn't blocked, I declared it "Dead" -- which basically means = that even though publication was requested the IESG is no longer tracking i= t. >So I think the suggestion that promises were made (and implicitly, that = >they were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those authors (two of = >the >OLSRv2 author team). There wasn't even the suggestion that the document = >evolve to something else, just blocked. If anyone else is interested, take a look at the history of the document, w= hich includes a note about the reasoning at the time: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-management-snapsho t/history/ Alvaro. _______________________________________________ manet mailing list manet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet ******************************************************************** This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. ******************************************************************** From nobody Thu Jun 30 10:46:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1443112D110; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:46:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YoEWkNLF_X-C; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99D4612DB27; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u68so77632443vkf.2; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:45:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JucX4lsbw6IlRPOVrNUSNK8iBT39pBOLt7RGnboDME8=; b=aP1Vfdz6rjshOKRCDlGW9JU/iBz9Oh77p5BMeKtpV7vbJulOh0dK35iMDsE0I74dA5 67FsaTMUpdzg7BNaV6Xef0OmLW26J3qvdruMKDDlnzGU0jwfN/rajHvU44aPoANG2OVN JhfuCIIVkct7DRdPqWQ6Xb04XUuZ8K+tplXGsjkBUROkehC/R3wbj20q8Wdp1A/RDs5w x+3a+Uy9Je4LFkPZeJiOQ2f+zTBYNE14mLdZ3S0+LuQqP4gXxDa1JLZp6ql9rq6WlieB cccLsCpFZwVV7YV9gLSkLn/lgqq2LvNj2tUvVK/hATzqWGsEA92FQwTpi6FYu2VjZ/86 DHwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JucX4lsbw6IlRPOVrNUSNK8iBT39pBOLt7RGnboDME8=; b=Y/cbTpRf814Yk5+b8dT1rND3a7YW68/fbOi3pLFR3GsaSWXa3aqdSUp6RlZSfO10Uw KZRWv8rFd/eeakwR++sMHl8y7Yv6RB3+VnCbBjO+TpmmdBXRrg/Era+VeOACi0FojMOz px+vGEC6uAlBOXz/QPRZOUwo8s+cNjRc9zKHE3l7/AUnIWPaXC6jzaBugyNjvv9xt63b BrYiVo2ZWtA/TgnT5Nvm5Jhrn6rzoO7SVMC5zsmG7b5scvBBvIHkHzqetzga/uFahNHA 0mfitlm7sSLiKilHoO6xjLQYAk3BdKSsfNMJf8JR15LG9129cBlzQ58SutLxuBIHSVO3 7Rsg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLrV3aLkvdBjqtboZ5Au+fE4kcn+mVEAoJbJa3FD1ooAkyTeRjhRBQetXkIHGsU4DB2JWdJXw71K3ofFA== X-Received: by 10.176.67.199 with SMTP id l65mr7144287ual.61.1467308750724; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:45:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.54.165 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 10:45:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Justin Dean Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 13:45:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d826adce6740536827023 Archived-At: Cc: "manet-chairs@ietf.org" , "Dearlove, Christopher \(UK\)" , "manet@ietf.org" , Thomas Heide Clausen , "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 17:46:30 -0000 --001a114d826adce6740536827023 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 There is value in providing a document which can help explain to the wider IETF what MANET is and can and can't do. What the limitations are and possible gaps in technologies that may possibly be. We have previously produced two different management documents both of which didn't come to fruition. I think something of a mixture of the two as well as details regarding HOW people have deployed and managed these networks and what are the limitations/advantages/disadvantages in those deployments. Parts of the OLSRv2 management draft can be taken as concrete example use cases using the only standard MANET protocol but there are properties of a MANET that are independent of the protocol: interment connectivity, address management, transit issues, protocol management, non-typical "link" properties, etc. We should be able to address what these challenges are and how we (those that have deployed MANET networks) have overcome those challenges. I think this is an opportunity and we have most of the pieces and all of the right people already. Justin On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/30/16, 11:20 AM, "manet on behalf of Ulrich Herberg" > wrote: > > Ulrich: > > Hi! > > >I am not sure how to produce a document > >that describes to how manage MANETs in general for standard protocols > >that don't even exist. > >So I also don't know how this item in the charter will be addressed. > > Please note that the charter item says: "Document outlining challenges and > best practices for deploying and > managing MANET networks." > > It doesn't say anything about a network using protocol A or protocol B. > You and I (and the rest of the WG of course) know that the protocols > developed in this WG are not the only manet protocols that exist -- in > fact, the protocols discussed in the WG are not the only protocols that > exist. And a routing protocol is not the only part that needs management > in a network. To be clear, the item is not about managing OLSRv2 in a > network (or any other protocol). > > MANET networks are not fully understood outside this WG, which sometimes > results in improper (or even unrealistic) expectations of what is > required/possible. This document gives the WG the opportunity to clearly > spell out the "challenges and best practices". Even though the WG is > inside the routing area and generally focuses on routing protocols, it is > clearly the one place where people with deployment and management of MANET > networks work -- which is why it is chartered with this work. > > I am sure that the WG will benefit from the experience of deploying > OLSRv2, which obviously should be taken into consideration. However, the > intent goes beyond a single protocol... > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > > --001a114d826adce6740536827023 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is value in providing a document which can help expl= ain to the wider IETF what MANET is and can and can't do.=C2=A0 What th= e limitations are and possible gaps in technologies that may possibly be.= =C2=A0 We have previously produced two different management documents both = of which didn't come to fruition.=C2=A0 I think something of a mixture = of the two as well as details regarding HOW people have deployed and manage= d these networks and what are the limitations/advantages/disadvantages in t= hose deployments.=C2=A0 Parts of the OLSRv2 management draft can be taken a= s concrete example use cases using the only standard MANET protocol but the= re are properties of a MANET that are independent of the protocol: intermen= t connectivity, address management, transit issues, protocol management, no= n-typical "link" properties, etc.=C2=A0 We should be able to addr= ess what these challenges are and how we (those that have deployed MANET ne= tworks) have overcome those challenges.=C2=A0

I think this is an opp= ortunity and we have most of the pieces and all of the right people already= .

Justin

On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana@cis= co.com> wrote:
On 6/30/16, 11:20 AM, "manet on behalf of Ulrich Herberg" <manet-bounces@ietf.org on= behalf of ulrich@herberg.name&g= t; wrote:

Ulrich:

Hi!

>I am not sure how to produce a document
>that describes to how manage MANETs in general for standard protocols >that don't even exist.
>So I also don't know how this item in the charter will be addressed= .

Please note that the charter item says: "Document outlining cha= llenges and
best practices for deploying and
managing MANET networks."

It doesn't say anything about a network using protocol A or prot= ocol B.
You and I (and the rest of the WG of course) know that the protocols
developed in this WG are not the only manet protocols that exist -- in
fact, the protocols discussed in the WG are not the only protocols that
exist.=C2=A0 And a routing protocol is not the only part that needs managem= ent
in a network.=C2=A0 To be clear, the item is not about managing OLSRv2 in a=
network (or any other protocol).

MANET networks are not fully understood outside this WG, which sometimes results in improper (or even unrealistic) expectations of what is
required/possible.=C2=A0 This document gives the WG the opportunity to clea= rly
spell out the "challenges and best practices".=C2=A0 Even though = the WG is
inside the routing area and generally focuses on routing protocols, it is clearly the one place where people with deployment and management of MANET<= br> networks work -- which is why it is chartered with this work.

I am sure that the WG will benefit from the experience of deploying
OLSRv2, which obviously should be taken into consideration.=C2=A0 However, = the
intent goes beyond a single protocol...

Thanks!

Alvaro.


--001a114d826adce6740536827023-- From nobody Thu Jun 30 12:00:27 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6054812DB90; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:00:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=thomasclausen.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2KLDdy_ujTLO; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:00:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailb2.tigertech.net (mailb2.tigertech.net [208.80.4.154]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF8C612DB84; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C585446508A; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:00:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=thomasclausen.org; s=1.tigertech; t=1467313221; bh=m6Eg0pyI3hHcpwisRVoC6g5vfs64HSMTgdWfgOz8wqc=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=WXg1itqRqw8B24C0/Uotj//c1onsEH8ThrwbBwNsseZW4zcLM3c/hLtyiRFY407+G 21PGPWD4b0l9y9bBWw87jMBL0dHVtU0UMgVpkW+IrtR6ZzHlp670TpWq1xvCQkaLv3 iBGv7A7KP3nFOJxl+xCl7OAOghB7pzz73IidIjJM= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at b2.tigertech.net Received: from [192.168.147.246] (mtg91-1-82-227-24-173.fbx.proxad.net [82.227.24.173]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailb2.tigertech.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2DD44465093; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 12:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7B612115-A602-4E2A-A046-448D1AA93C1E Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Thomas Heide Clausen X-Mailer: iPad Mail (14A5261v) In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 21:00:19 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <8F745D5C-2F77-4929-9A05-160C051B5581@thomasclausen.org> References: <20160630071134.29630.40419.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" Archived-At: Cc: "Benoit Claise \(bclaise\)" , "manet@ietf.org" , "manet-chairs@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (with COMMENT) X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 19:00:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail-7B612115-A602-4E2A-A046-448D1AA93C1E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 30 Jun 2016, at 18:22, Dearlove, Christopher (UK) wrote: >=20 > Sorry, I'm sure there is a subtlety in being declared dead rather than blo= cked, but I don't know what it is. But as I said, I wasn't an author, so was= n't involved in any detailed discussions over why it died. I am an author of this document. I remember the process of it being written,= from its inception in discussion w/ the AD who requested it, and until it w= as declared dead by another AD -- thus preventing (or, blocking) the IESG fr= om discussing it. I believe that the history and the reasons, as have been presented in this d= iscussion, are, at best, *very* partial. You wrote: > "So I think the suggestion that promises were made (and implicitly, that > they were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those authors (two of the > OLSRv2 author team). " As one of the authors, I do indeed find that suggestion to be both unfair an= d offensive. Thomas > --=20 > Christopher Dearlove > Senior Principal Engineer > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories > __________________________________________________________________________= >=20 > T: +44 (0)1245 242194 | E: chris.dearlove@baesystems.com >=20 > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow= , Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN. > www.baesystems.com/ai > BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited > Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451 > Registered Office: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alvaro Retana (ar= etana) > Sent: 30 June 2016 16:24 > To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Benoit Claise (bclaise) > Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03= -07: (with COMMENT) >=20 > ----------------------! WARNING ! ---------------------- This message orig= inates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or fro= m the internet. > Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachm= ents or reply. > Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions o= n reporting suspicious email messages. > -------------------------------------------------------- >=20 > *** WARNING *** > EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This message originates from outside our organization. >=20 >=20 > On 6/30/16, 5:24 AM, "manet on behalf of Dearlove, Christopher (UK)" > wrote:= >=20 > Christopher: >=20 > Hi! >=20 >> Given that the only standards track routing protocol that has been=20 >> defined in the group is OLSRv2, there was an OLSRv2 management draft=20 >> produced (I was not an author). It was blocked from proceeding by the=20 >> then AD (I forget which one). >=20 > The document wasn't blocked, I declared it "Dead" -- which basically means= that even though publication was requested the IESG is no longer tracking i= t. >=20 >=20 >> So I think the suggestion that promises were made (and implicitly, that=20= >> they were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those authors (two of=20 >> the >> OLSRv2 author team). There wasn't even the suggestion that the document=20= >> evolve to something else, just blocked. >=20 > If anyone else is interested, take a look at the history of the document, w= hich includes a note about the reasoning at the time: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-management-snapsh= o > t/history/ >=20 >=20 > Alvaro. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet >=20 >=20 > ******************************************************************** > This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended > recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. > You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or > distribute its contents to any other person. > ******************************************************************** >=20 > _______________________________________________ > manet mailing list > manet@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --Apple-Mail-7B612115-A602-4E2A-A046-448D1AA93C1E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On 30 Jun 2016, at 18:22, Dearlove, Chris= topher (UK) <chris.dearl= ove@baesystems.com> wrote:

Sorry, I'm sure there is a subtlety in being declared dead rather th= an blocked, but I don't know what it is. But as I said, I wasn't an author, s= o wasn't involved in any detailed discussions over why it died.


I am an author of this docu= ment. I remember the process of it being written, from its inception in disc= ussion w/ the AD who requested it, and until it was declared dead by another= AD -- thus preventing (or, blocking) the IESG from discussing it.

<= /div>
I believe that the history and the reasons, as have been presented= in this discussion, are, at best, *very* partial.

= You wrote:

"So I think the suggestion that promi= ses were made (and implicitly, that
they were broken) is rather unfai= r, at least to those authors (two of the
OLSRv2 author team). "

As one of the authors, I= do indeed find that suggestion to be both unfair and offensive.
<= br>
Thomas

-- <= /span>
Christopher Dearlove
Senior Principal Engine= er
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Laboratories
<= span>_______________________________________________________________________= ___

T:  +44 (0)1245 242194  | &nb= sp;E: chris.dearlove@baesys= tems.com

BAE Systems Applied Intelligen= ce, Chelmsford Technology Park, Great Baddow, Chelmsford, Essex CM2 8HN.
www.baesystems.com/ai<= /a>
BAE Systems Applied Intelligence Limited
Registered in England & Wales No: 01337451
Registered O= ffice: Surrey Research Park, Guildford, Surrey, GU2 7YP

-----Original Message-----
From: manet [mailto:manet-bounces@ietf.org] On Beh= alf Of Alvaro Retana (aretana)
Sent: 30 June 2016 16:24
To: Dearlove, Christopher (UK); Benoit Claise (bclaise)Cc: manet@ietf.org; manet-chairs@ietf.org
Sub= ject: Re: [manet] Benoit Claise's No Objection on charter-ietf-manet-03-07: (= with COMMENT)

----------------------! WARNI= NG ! ---------------------- This message originates from outside our organis= ation, either from an external partner or from the internet.
Consider carefully whether you should click on any links, open any attachme= nts or reply.
Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on I= T matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages.--------------------------------------------------------

*** WARNING ***
EXTERNAL EMAIL -- This m= essage originates from outside our organization.

=
On 6/30/16, 5:24 AM, "manet on behalf of Dearlove, Ch= ristopher (UK)"
<manet-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of chris.dearlove@baesystems.com> wrote:
=
Christopher:

Hi!
Given that the only standa= rds track routing protocol that has been
defined in the group is OLSRv2, there was an OLSRv2 man= agement draft
produc= ed (I was not an author). It was blocked from proceeding by the
<= /blockquote>
then AD (I forget which one).

The document wasn't blocked, I d= eclared it "Dead" -- which basically means that even though publication was r= equested the IESG is no longer tracking it.


So I think the suggestion that p= romises were made (and implicitly, that
they were broken) is rather unfair, at least to those aut= hors (two of
the
OLSRv2 author team). The= re wasn't even the suggestion that the document
evolve to something else, just blocked.

If anyone else is interested, take a l= ook at the history of the document, which includes a note about the reasonin= g at the time:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/= draft-ietf-manet-olsrv2-management-snapsho
t/history/


Alvaro.

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
manet@= ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet


*********************************************= ***********************
This email and any attachments are c= onfidential to the intended
recipient and may also be privil= eged. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete it= from your system and notify the sender.
You should not copy= it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
distribute its= contents to any other person.
*****************************= ***************************************

___= ____________________________________________
manet mailing l= ist
manet@ietf.org
https:/= /www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet
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= --Apple-Mail-7B612115-A602-4E2A-A046-448D1AA93C1E-- From nobody Thu Jun 30 16:05:32 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B1112B019 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.198, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6eY2mozNgupU for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x234.google.com (mail-lf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0A3EB127058 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id l188so65827432lfe.2 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to; bh=ot0CsHlPNHKv5ndj7TkkyOFf1WseNcf5CDNVT9M+m+0=; b=bAwxB/MrLYuZv8Wm842LFoydA1ZLKO5srHDU8L6+6Y5/ef1XrcN3hkhp/ttgB4ELMM 3GkTS8bOL4H8ksB0rTqTIxMq8VhRY7SZSw78Qhh+XmopNVQ+LHz256uTHnRYRQNXIAaj 7R+WKlVA9F2lf1dfg3ixgfbrMtLqsjeXvgG1pSxNIw0X8gVricDDo/gmOK3dpzduegKB ZoLjALzTJRnwfRwD+2Lx+3twEGA+PrkbrsjK/LPoKvzGIxMIdP9Uq057wxDaLoafOTlC BF71ZpmRhztL9yviLnYTB6SQXLo9MI+soawSwbX1aXHM8MKgE4dmzTsq0OHVWpD6X2cA xglg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ot0CsHlPNHKv5ndj7TkkyOFf1WseNcf5CDNVT9M+m+0=; b=bqSchBwQ7e5pAhCHaFzuxjJXxaRm/uSAT2Nt3xXZrORY/hyp1ljsKvnUA9OVTWn8nK WsgLjsiooSHG7Vb5Qy3i1qiWJie8BrYlD+bM968aoDHOoxcFgir6eU93r42h5gbElidC U2W7vy0Np1putpvbjR//V9fOiApky8wgTi0YhrWmglbx0M7abb9bZ/+IPRrHINENviIz CEkHxirfYkCGDWpdFLlnda22FXHO7z37WBgmjFmykxp+u6rDCiSdH8vE4XjrSUgrFrmS KgC38Jo+/hqqW5Dbk783QjsgIGZgql0s6VB/Yftzn+K2pdk1fmLb6hOLnNRVbgvKpn4q Pfvg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLT4vdJm8GKLnzBebs6qYiZxzQBP9E8XH5ZNI6diQpftNDtqb3SIn/sMia/L0ylbF4RWR5PhRFhrYSW6g== X-Received: by 10.46.5.136 with SMTP id 130mr4991054ljf.13.1467327926713; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: yi.jiazi@gmail.com Received: by 10.114.2.231 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 16:05:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> From: Jiazi YI Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 01:05:24 +0200 X-Google-Sender-Auth: k0t1aHGYqRnSWll0QCemxKvBCTg Message-ID: To: MANET IETF Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114a69b2d743d9053686e767 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2016 23:05:31 -0000 --001a114a69b2d743d9053686e767 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Regarding the use of source routing header in IPv6 and the reference to RFC6554, we have contacted the 6man chairs. The answer from Ole (one of the chairs) was that he didn't see why it can't be used, and suggested the experimental code points of the IPv6 Routing Types. So in the next revision of the olsrv2-multipath, we will: - Use the experimental code point of IPv6 Routing Types for SRH. - Have a well scoped reference to RFC6554: for example, for SRH format, use section 3, for SRH processing, use section 4, etc. Other than that, the olsrv2-multipath would be self-contained. - Have a well defined scope of the use of the SRH: only the OLSRv2/MP-OLSRv2 routing domain. Any other comments on the approach? best Jiazi On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) wrote: > On 6/24/16, 5:16 AM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on behalf of Jiazi YI" < > yi.jiazi@gmail.com on behalf of ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote: > > Hi! > > Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't > think it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the > charter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several > extensions for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term > "The MANET WG is responsible for the *maintenance* of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181], > NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444]= , > and their *extensions*.", instead of listing possible extensions > explicitly. > > > As I said: "To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, I want > the WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately=E2=80=A6" That's it! If the W= G wants to > take this work on, I don't have a problem =E2=80=94 it is with in the cha= rter. > Let's just not forget about the other work we have=E2=80=A6 > > The second part of the point I tried to make was, I think, more important= : > extensions to IPv6 are not within the manet WG's charter, but they > belong to 6man. It would probably be more effective if the source routin= g > work was in the Standards Track. I'm assuming that Multi-path is just on= e > use case for source routing, but there are probably more. I also wrote: > "[*] I doubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's > already defied in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort. I of course may b= e > wrong and the Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to > simply reference RFC6554." > > Note that what I'm suggesting is not to put the Multi-path work in the > Standards Track (that is a separate discussion) =E2=80=94 but to justify = source > routing for MANET networks as a larger need (including multi-path, but > bigger than that). > > Thanks! > > Alvaro. > --001a114a69b2d743d9053686e767 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,=C2=A0

Regarding the use of source r= outing header in IPv6 and the reference to RFC6554, we have contacted the 6= man chairs.=C2=A0

The answer from Ole (one of the = chairs) was that he didn't see why it can't be used, and suggested = the experimental code points of the IPv6 Routing Types.=C2=A0
So in the next revision of the olsrv2-multipath, we will:
=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Use the experimental code = point of IPv6 Routing Types for SRH.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0Have a well scoped reference to RFC6554: for example,= for SRH format, use section 3, for SRH processing, use section 4, etc. Oth= er than that, the olsrv2-multipath would be self-contained.=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0Have a well def= ined scope of the use of the SRH: only the OLSRv2/MP-OLSRv2 routing domain.=

Any other comments on t= he approach?

best=

Jiazi

On Fri, Jun 24,= 2016 at 1:40 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) <aretana@cisco.com> wrote:
On 6/24/16, 5:16 AM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on behalf of Jiazi YI" <yi.jiazi@gmail.com on = behalf of ietf@jiaziyi.com&= gt; wrote:

Hi!

Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don'= ;t think it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of th= e charter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several ext= ensions for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANET WG is responsible for the<= span>=C2=A0maintenance=C2=A0of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181]= ,
NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444],= =C2=A0
and their=C2=A0extensions.", instead of listing po= ssible extensions explicitly.=C2=A0

As I said: "To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do = this work, I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately=E2=80=A6" = =C2=A0That's it!=C2=A0 If the WG wants to take this work on, I don'= t have a problem =E2=80=94 it is with in the charter.=C2=A0 Let's just = not forget about the other work we have=E2=80=A6=C2=A0

The second part of the point I tried to make was, I think, more import= ant: =C2=A0extensions to IPv6 are not=C2=A0within the manet WG's = charter, but they belong to 6man.=C2=A0 It would probably be more effective= if the source routing work was in the Standards Track.=C2=A0 I'm assum= ing that Multi-path is just one use case for source routing, but there are probably more.=C2=A0 I also wrote: "[*] I doubt that 6m= an will want to put in an extension (even if it's already defied in RFC= 6554) for an Experimental effort.=C2=A0 I of course may be wrong and the Ex= perimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply reference RFC6554."

Note that what I'm suggesting is not to put the Multi-path work in= the Standards Track (that is a separate discussion) =E2=80=94 but to justi= fy source routing for MANET networks= =C2=A0as a larger need (including multi-path, but bigger than that).

Thanks!

Alvaro.

--001a114a69b2d743d9053686e767-- From nobody Thu Jun 30 22:33:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17C4912D17B for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:32:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -15.946 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.946 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.426, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vkAuRK8QVksQ for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:32:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com [173.37.86.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AD7412D151 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:32:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10942; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1467351176; x=1468560776; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=vNWF63ywDTsSTvxM3rkbPNAo3VKMbSSERe/S8XjjStE=; b=URE5m3MvBBeRBQLqq2KDPOWQvleOU8NI4oPdQmk8V4MpMm+Hqe0td8Jc djm53NWJf/T/ki2D7bbBVivkE/LreWuPxjmYKj8jV/+17Y3a0BqFUU1As Fiww/v9VMkIkIgcdkPcvxlkOTDwQdkusYt6jGJvXwnOzzfS9jMU9Onqmt I=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0BvAgBc/3VX/40NJK1bgnBOVnytRIcPh?= =?us-ascii?q?QGBeyKFdgKBMzgUAQEBAQEBAWUnhE0BBQEBbAsQAgEIPwchBgsUEQIEDgWIFgM?= =?us-ascii?q?XDr9kDYQbAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBFwWGKIF3CIJOgkOCM4J2gi8Fk?= =?us-ascii?q?1aFAzQBjDWCC48qiBWHcgEeNoIIHIFMboh0AQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.26,555,1459814400"; d="scan'208,217";a="124602224" Received: from alln-core-8.cisco.com ([173.36.13.141]) by rcdn-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 01 Jul 2016 05:32:55 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id u615WtHi022759 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 1 Jul 2016 05:32:55 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com (173.37.102.11) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Fri, 1 Jul 2016 00:32:54 -0500 Received: from xch-rcd-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) by XCH-RCD-001.cisco.com ([173.37.102.11]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 1 Jul 2016 00:32:54 -0500 From: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" To: Jiazi YI Thread-Topic: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 Thread-Index: AQHR0yPr4AACWZ1mFkO8y3AHh0avDqADDcDS Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 05:32:54 +0000 Message-ID: <9E1B5776-D8D8-4697-9BF4-EA24A84EF8A7@cisco.com> References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9E1B5776D8D846979BF4EA24A84EF8A7ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2016 05:32:59 -0000 --_000_9E1B5776D8D846979BF4EA24A84EF8A7ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks good, Jiazi. I wonder if in the future we can create deeper bounds between an OLSR core = and a RPL edge, make that a combined domain where SRH can be used end to en= d. Maybe on occasion we can chat about the way RPL handles instances, which ar= e like L3 VLANs. Take care, Pascal Le 1 juil. 2016 ? 01:05, Jiazi YI > a ?crit : Hi, Regarding the use of source routing header in IPv6 and the reference to RFC= 6554, we have contacted the 6man chairs. The answer from Ole (one of the chairs) was that he didn't see why it can't= be used, and suggested the experimental code points of the IPv6 Routing Ty= pes. So in the next revision of the olsrv2-multipath, we will: - Use the experimental code point of IPv6 Routing Types for SRH. - Have a well scoped reference to RFC6554: for example, for SRH form= at, use section 3, for SRH processing, use section 4, etc. Other than that,= the olsrv2-multipath would be self-contained. - Have a well defined scope of the use of the SRH: only the OLSRv2/M= P-OLSRv2 routing domain. Any other comments on the approach? best Jiazi On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) > wrote: On 6/24/16, 5:16 AM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on beha= lf of Jiazi YI" on behalf of= ietf@jiaziyi.com> wrote: Hi! Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't t= hink it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the ch= arter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several extensi= ons for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANE= T WG is responsible for the maintenance of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181], NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444], and their extensions.", instead of listing possible extensions explicitly. As I said: "To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, I want the= WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately..." That's it! If the WG wants to = take this work on, I don't have a problem - it is with in the charter. Let= 's just not forget about the other work we have... The second part of the point I tried to make was, I think, more important: = extensions to IPv6 are not within the manet WG's charter, but they belong = to 6man. It would probably be more effective if the source routing work wa= s in the Standards Track. I'm assuming that Multi-path is just one use cas= e for source routing, but there are probably more. I also wrote: "[*] I do= ubt that 6man will want to put in an extension (even if it's already defied= in RFC6554) for an Experimental effort. I of course may be wrong and the = Experimental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply reference RF= C6554." Note that what I'm suggesting is not to put the Multi-path work in the Stan= dards Track (that is a separate discussion) - but to justify source routing= for MANET networks as a larger need (including multi-path, but bigger than= that). Thanks! Alvaro. _______________________________________________ manet mailing list manet@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manet --_000_9E1B5776D8D846979BF4EA24A84EF8A7ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Looks good, Jiazi.

I wonder if in the future we can create deep= er bounds between an OLSR core and a RPL edge, make that a combined domain = where SRH can be used end to end.

Maybe on occasion we can chat about the way RPL handles instances, which ar= e like L3 VLANs.

Take care,

Pascal

Le 1 juil. 2016 à 01:05, Jiazi YI <ietf@jiaziyi.com> a écrit :

Hi, 

Regarding the use of source routing header in IPv6 and the reference t= o RFC6554, we have contacted the 6man chairs. 

The answer from Ole (one of the chairs) was that he didn't see why it = can't be used, and suggested the experimental code points of the IPv6 Routi= ng Types. 

So in the next revision of the olsrv2-multipath, we will:

       - Use the experimental code point of IPv6 R= outing Types for SRH. 

       - Have a well scoped reference to RFC6554: = for example, for SRH format, use section 3, for SRH processing, use section= 4, etc. Other than that, the olsrv2-multipath would be self-contained.&nbs= p;
=
=        - Have a well defined scope of the us= e of the SRH: only the OLSRv2/MP-OLSRv2 routing domain.

Any other comments on the approach?

best

Jiazi

On Fri, Jun 24, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Alvaro Retana (= aretana) <aretana@cisco.com> wrote:
On 6/24/16, 5:16 AM, "yi.jiazi@gmail.com on behalf of Jiazi YI" <yi.jiazi@gmail.com on = behalf of ietf@jiaziyi.com&= gt; wrote:

Hi!

Of course, As a WG, the priority is achieving the milestones, but I don't t= hink it would preclude having extensions to OLSRv2, which is part of the ch= arter also. In fact, IIRC, during the recharter discussion, several extensi= ons for OLSRv2 were proposed. The WG finished with using the term "The MANET WG is responsible for the<= span> maintenance of OLSRv2 [RFC 7181]= ,
NHDP [RFC 6130] and the Generalized MANET Packet/Message Format [RFC5444],&= nbsp;
and their extensions.", instead of listing po= ssible extensions explicitly. 

As I said: "To be clear: I'm not asking you not to do this work, = I want the WG Chairs to prioritize appropriately…"  That's = it!  If the WG wants to take this work on, I don't have a problem R= 12; it is with in the charter.  Let's just not forget about the other work we have… 

The second part of the point I tried to make was, I think, more import= ant:  extensions to IPv6 are not within the manet WG's char= ter, but they belong to 6man.  It would probably be more effective if = the source routing work was in the Standards Track.  I'm assuming that= Multi-path is just one use case for source routing, but there are probably more.  I also wrote: "[*] I doubt that 6m= an will want to put in an extension (even if it's already defied in RFC6554= ) for an Experimental effort.  I of course may be wrong and the Experi= mental nature may make it easier in their eyes to simply reference RFC6554."

Note that what I'm suggesting is not to put the Multi-path work in the= Standards Track (that is a separate discussion) — but to justify source routing for MANET networks&n= bsp;as a larger need (including multi-path, but bigger than that).

Thanks!

Alvaro.

_______________________________________________
manet mailing list
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--_000_9E1B5776D8D846979BF4EA24A84EF8A7ciscocom_-- From nobody Thu Jun 30 22:41:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manet@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CFDC12D182 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:41:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hx0YjLXs8BJH for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:41:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x22d.google.com (mail-qk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6A2612D17E for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:41:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id j2so130640877qkf.3 for ; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:41:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=okYgO0COh+zYwf+Kx2B20DlML5FnWgtzURkNkpFS0tU=; b=GjHBMSXHAJxCzVwcu7SxbALILqA3u4g28oqwZc6p40rezBHXIRGRfK7vTZwAzM1YEX sbAOshv//1FQyiAnXXB/H5wR7X5TWVtEEOik8rnHFtdjw1PWm/i4KiKdHyZK1SD6BisY 6D6uEE9kv77jWR9wXejsF3n4ZRzCgPhRiFaJGCdZ8Qra7ytj5Y2iwCzMlsmejfLzOUOV flcNam+Zpis9XjZJHqT7dSI5Oj/2E+QFtSRA+1Qtpc+6qv8DOTkq08to2RZgpzSkCQoj cVnGQqXmZmQCZH/gvoawYEmQ6lzuq3CWz36n6WoFx8VAkgzQZ2kuodFsJAACToouB1Kl 38TA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=okYgO0COh+zYwf+Kx2B20DlML5FnWgtzURkNkpFS0tU=; b=lwCqgvfXAINVw4fp/ssnNBg+QLNPd1odPIWsTfXcSjjUT8tpqs6xiZfeLAD8bpPok2 PYvh3Bsk+X14Kn+El7j80bDW1B6PMeFRFCdbWFfrtEDDt+RGtpzlh+SDWs5DSYn2th6L YSVNzUPSvBuBa7hASrEn0Yup0T3ry7ysfqZ07McamiSHdRZcJHbCjc+YsWbBBft/pMuH vhJF3ecS8eoPeQZ2IdjXZYyExXNkXY4B4049ZFnZPvDTchZKxHgeJhtuwHABzELjNl/4 VaPtKYELPuvWuuAH5L+mBy5h/pVE0hzCxmaZBK4jXApvzFCc36nnOa3MPqsIl5WHmED3 J7ww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tIWY8CnSbJ88plNfKtcBo+nh6Njm7q0qhLm4W8c5dY6WkPIPJJoRV+2+mjKniJETRZOEMyjH/h9P74rIA== X-Received: by 10.55.112.2 with SMTP id l2mr25306898qkc.185.1467351662648; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:41:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.237.51.131 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jun 2016 22:40:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9E1B5776-D8D8-4697-9BF4-EA24A84EF8A7@cisco.com> References: <9CC61969-5F6A-4F14-87C6-99B47080DDB3@gmail.com> <9E1B5776-D8D8-4697-9BF4-EA24A84EF8A7@cisco.com> From: Henning Rogge Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2016 07:40:33 +0200 Message-ID: To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: MANET IETF Subject: Re: [manet] draft-ietf-olsrv2-multipath-09 X-BeenThere: manet@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Mobile Ad-hoc Networks List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2016 05:41:06 -0000 On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Pascal Thubert (pthubert) wrote: > Maybe on occasion we can chat about the way RPL handles instances, which are > like L3 VLANs. Wouldn't the multi-topology extension of OLSRv2 having a similar effect? Multiple (partly) overlapping routing topologies with the same routing agent. Henning Rogge