From nobody Thu Apr 4 12:12:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B005B120092 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 12:12:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NnkXQV50eZwn for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 12:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E9FD120074 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 12:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6593038277 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 46B96DF2; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42FC891 for ; Thu, 4 Apr 2019 15:12:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: manycouches@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] Fifty Years X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2019 19:12:28 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain I saw my IETF draft mirror job mirror: draft-flanagan-fiftyyears-03 which contains the text: But we did come to one conclusion: we ought to meet again. Over the next several months, we met at each of our sites, thereby setting the precedent for regular face to face meetings. We also instantly felt the irony. This new network was supposed to make it possible to work together at a distance, and the first thing we did was schedule a significant amount of travel. !! -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAlymVxcACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUPOQgAjsCcLxE193x7eDCs5unhpFo4Qa1AE6u9QSeU31S4wKbzY3dWXRxTQVbN NcenCkfaH6dovX22pV4cBuwn/iOc6zXz3jVfkkihwROI8Qiv/b0Io7fJA0xQIXlQ Pq6KnylOqgWghi7sgt5d+nQbDruvwJ85+4svnvX2e96rQQCjOxgv3mAeSTasdO10 /fvl8u8CNDnSXiTchYhHIkXJMgaM9tAr5x4/dOWH0MGfik+PhVv1ovBqD8dWBKg4 F6Z8FW96z2YcQ8BbdzK0jlRrm5OZQnsl0AIzQYHDcxvBPIiwz05AUNe5vFFLK9ul PsRDgOP00LTw59xu4JN7uLEO98HdpA== =Gt1e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Apr 10 05:38:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A621202E4 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 05:38:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QTNLcTPB_jZ7 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 05:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com (mail-qk1-x72f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EE3A120072 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 05:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id c189so1072179qke.6 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 05:38:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=Z0VMeyp9ZPOhXQjmsUgwEsSokRjyayovYMHjxUlZQMY=; b=Kn+Qww9t881AGyO5WMZmoaDS2Ta7vLc1rg6l1inAFITCFHaorvyB5Eti6bnV0QlKdV ofW5axpOpWklqhhcDsf/gm06qG3zYISmKViLJs0d1R9P1KLgkMLfZvj7vYvTvJf2fLZW d4+qCHRHWuj8UfzHXCwtwndrQe7HRRHfVSDq5ZFHyhBp19MwPbJJtGrrN/QwYVbRTAHd G6At/n+GcTjVSI1FjVUdHE3sS/5qsS3/LV01h3hIDyf+cPKrcc+JdoBlP8PcPcYzIA87 wSIXBFcFJTud8vKx3KcuZi+7XnBKDLFVjZhtijBk4TS+vaDr/IT6D0YOnsSSdxRQ231W EMIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=Z0VMeyp9ZPOhXQjmsUgwEsSokRjyayovYMHjxUlZQMY=; b=VP249oBeu+adEQ9uLFWYziKpjeM+N8AhwPJtrCdilLrq5QvtHXgQUq/YsT6ZmXv6Fz TraHL1qTwHIdOLifHTQnvO0SgEezRdr8MGeljF3pD7qtg943eisF+LPREp7QBcfiUiP9 qQ96c7B6jFWpYWgvBbpiGEAx6vLYUGUSLy9efyIteBsuKEO/9/DrzjdiEn+xqJC6f0Zk +EZrH9NG4goVsFbthzVNh7rGA7NcFN07EsHd1f85ErbE2qr9VZo6ZyOw53TMZ9B3O4EN HyZPd9LQaEgbhqx/jmWjNXfDlBOasNfSOlbxGyD4OVdZnqB37fs1i1nfS8I+G9XT+Z8J YItg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUeI27KXEKZYiFQ1nJmt+WjCCxb3pL4eormuCPtUsw6173Mnsu9 iPRHGJtZSqd5GjyCUfpvcHoOQE4x1wqE5A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwmi5zmG9ZkUTf6NkVIviR7POMQ4/cMeyv5+JEeGTw07YVdlZP8TWTeVdcFdYyMK9sK5hmHzQ== X-Received: by 2002:a37:27d4:: with SMTP id n203mr32670486qkn.105.1554899932236; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 05:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s50sm24471264qts.39.2019.04.10.05.38.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Apr 2019 05:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0985C6BB-9FD7-49D0-8F1A-03D0326EB667" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 08:38:49 -0400 Message-Id: To: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:38:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0985C6BB-9FD7-49D0-8F1A-03D0326EB667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 At IETF we had a bar BoF which hopefully quite a few people on this = mailing list attended. At the BoF we had a round table discussion = about what peoples ideas were for getting the IETF into a new mode of = operation that makes better use of the technology we=E2=80=99ve = developed, rather than requiring in-person meetings as a driver for = getting work done. At the BoF we agreed to have a virtual BoF online in about a month. = It=E2=80=99s about two weeks before the deadline for that, so I wanted = to have a quick discussion about what to do at this BoF before = announcing it. Because this is not an IETF working group, the usual = notification requirements don=E2=80=99t technically apply, but on a = practical level I think two weeks notice is just as necessary for a = virtual BoF as for a virtual interim, so I=E2=80=99m going to ask the = secretariat to announce it the same way. I would like to try out some of the stuff that Wes talked about in his = presentation at HotRFC: rather than just doing a normal BoF, I=E2=80=99d = like to see if we can use existing tools to achieve some of what Wes = described. We will still want to do some online video discussion, but = I=E2=80=99d also like to try using a Wiki and an interim-only mailing = list as the primary communication method, and do the BoF over two days = to give us time to participate in the way Wes described. This may fail = miserably or may go well=E2=80=94we can only find out by trying. If we go ahead with this, one of the things I will ask is that you add = to the Wiki your recollection of what you said in the bar BoF. I at = least didn=E2=80=99t take notes, and I don=E2=80=99t think Wes did = either, but I think there was a lot of useful stuff exchanged there. Does anybody object to this approach? If I don=E2=80=99t hear loud = objections, I=E2=80=99ll set up a wiki and ask people to work on it; = I=E2=80=99d like it if we could do that work before the interim so that = at the interim we can talk about it and form some ideas for = experimentation. Thanks! --Apple-Mail=_0985C6BB-9FD7-49D0-8F1A-03D0326EB667 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 At = IETF we had a bar BoF which hopefully quite a few people on this mailing = list attended.   At the BoF we had a round table discussion about = what peoples ideas were for getting the IETF into a new mode of = operation that makes better use of the technology we=E2=80=99ve = developed, rather than requiring in-person meetings as a driver for = getting work done.

At = the BoF we agreed to have a virtual BoF online in about a month.   = It=E2=80=99s about two weeks before the deadline for that, so I wanted = to have a quick discussion about what to do at this BoF before = announcing it.  Because this is not an IETF working group, the = usual notification requirements don=E2=80=99t technically apply, but on = a practical level I think two weeks notice is just as necessary for a = virtual BoF as for a virtual interim, so I=E2=80=99m going to ask the = secretariat to announce it the same way.

I would like to try out some of the = stuff that Wes talked about in his presentation at HotRFC: rather than = just doing a normal BoF, I=E2=80=99d like to see if we can use existing = tools to achieve some of what Wes described.   We will still want = to do some online video discussion, but I=E2=80=99d also like to try = using a Wiki and an interim-only mailing list as the primary = communication method, and do the BoF over two days to give us time to = participate in the way Wes described.   This may fail miserably or = may go well=E2=80=94we can only find out by trying.

If we go ahead with = this, one of the things I will ask is that you add to the Wiki your = recollection of what you said in the bar BoF.   I at least didn=E2=80= =99t take notes, and I don=E2=80=99t think Wes did either, but I think = there was a lot of useful stuff exchanged there.

Does anybody object to = this approach?   If I don=E2=80=99t hear loud objections, I=E2=80=99l= l set up a wiki and ask people to work on it; I=E2=80=99d like it if we = could do that work before the interim so that at the interim we can talk = about it and form some ideas for experimentation.

Thanks!

= --Apple-Mail=_0985C6BB-9FD7-49D0-8F1A-03D0326EB667-- From nobody Wed Apr 10 06:06:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4965120072 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:06:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uVsfJgYbLcry for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CCD912037C for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [209.52.88.152]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2A071F459; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:06:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 4BF2A2268; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 15:06:32 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Ted Lemon cc: manycouches@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Ted Lemon message dated "Wed, 10 Apr 2019 08:38:49 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 09:06:32 -0400 Message-ID: <14814.1554901592@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:06:35 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted Lemon wrote: > Does anybody object to this approach? If I don=E2=80=99t hear loud o= bjections, > I=E2=80=99ll set up a wiki and ask people to work on it; I=E2=80=99d = like it if we > could do that work before the interim so that at the interim we can > talk about it and form some ideas for experimentation. Does this include a daily summary? Was that part of the process? =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAlyt6lcACgkQlUzhVv38 QpA5Ggf/btYBKzIlUCx1xwfKsLzqJAxjs1c1a+6XHZ/AiXw0vYx/6kwY5Mjcujso kh/YVylN97N2lr7HMamU0stXXL3iqhnoIJHORiow+Uvw58nZkwI/4L8b2e7TCpPG my7QYsZEdKyc2hv51rGx5MNmMJMjxfbWVbMTzRjvwK7HP3Q0JQZPprtU1SG0romx f6VIMbNahR3NbRU15DAk8/5m5GFB+hOnZbiB0OQ3SDRXxhL/G0z7y7Q7+lwI7oEO V5EMdItUazRD+fiPgn5DV3jpxBVmIUSIz9HjFiZ4GWZlk/oVj300qwbAp10bcLIr /5B5pVzhCqdLJN1Q4ywQ0ocXkLroGw== =GvnG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Apr 10 06:10:01 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE9DD120072 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:09:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1FFQZv7lNeaC for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5BA5E12006F for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id z17so2649611qts.13 for ; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:09:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5seC7qqDwcjb8U1cXRer3k3LOBtG+0WfrLjrf1nZZD0=; b=YW5q9cHBQjdmuOQFRO7faedk572EtWB7IjGN5Lg0C1CTj/Rbr7IPKOsxcofG0C03/k NDtMQ0vxzvovifd+1I6PghbE16hAbBrr/asGly9dDtWXnKvrgzZ1UjSqcvbmeA3rbaB9 TwM9tnl91VvaRWCgtDFcGvdguqoFY5y+z2zP2y0ps36S8xS4TK3Dq1Qf5m9JNuRaD9lp T4ksPVmN1Glwk0b11WWx6Ufg2q8L7LCTezHvFdYCq6TBs+ycETcr/jzefVNEhA3oIyTs hTXAn4l1MEWjrTbX2AGVEEwED9fdWipIghRemmCP4l+Izvu+HDySd4rBf1YYZl5BfxLH rq4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5seC7qqDwcjb8U1cXRer3k3LOBtG+0WfrLjrf1nZZD0=; b=Q40y9tmFQ18kFf9G6aOQ1hNP57i1uuw1duS6O0qSOtwtbbzr65Yhkh71DHLTU4REBh 2XMs2e8fhaQcSpM/lPIvObMS0D8WjaIS8t11wNda6qMmP+LH9zpRWK8ow+4nGTOi1xf0 plMphR9+3QQH0AAvJnJLE44fjov9nhIIFRXDzQFrjcsuExkxSYq3y+wJW64KdcbzzdUr d7+PgXFviHvvzj9Iep3YUHvyRXKrd/U7n+fOn5xEXDs3nbg7g6ViM5QWSBbY3S47ARS7 R/KI3aLKofruE8IFyxw3qp2pjJNU7nX1wfTMlsVymFgSaKlsktM/DYvmM6rMdKgB/5wS YvYA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWqskSqBURaPaJdUpJXJSfKCOs0HlEs3Lo59fRIEQvASRu+Javo 8fX9AHxkw+WUCexLh+r7wU9xkhAsPGW4eg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxw7vJpQiPZ6UlxJU9C0r0rClDDwhlRGy8gkjAcEewGEf5Mr7KjOhwHqEgDodj8w7gRtkKVlA== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:d483:: with SMTP id u3mr34485084qvh.54.1554901795075; Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.100.12] (c-73-186-137-119.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.186.137.119]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n201sm19944601qka.10.2019.04.10.06.09.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 10 Apr 2019 06:09:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_31DEA295-1704-4696-AC6A-24415CB6F358" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.2\)) Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 09:09:52 -0400 In-Reply-To: <14814.1554901592@dooku.sandelman.ca> Cc: manycouches@ietf.org To: Michael Richardson References: <14814.1554901592@dooku.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:09:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_31DEA295-1704-4696-AC6A-24415CB6F358 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Apr 10, 2019, at 9:06 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: > Does this include a daily summary? Was that part of the process? It could be. That raises the question of whether =E2=80=9Cdaily=E2=80=9D= is the right frequency, though. Possibly it should be more like = work-daily, since if we account for time zones, there are arguably three = work days per calendar day and in a virtual interim of the type Wes = described, all of those hours would potentially be active. So having a = person who volunteers to do the summary for each of the three time = intervals would probably be good. Alternatively, we could do a running summary in the wiki. More work, = but probably more effective. --Apple-Mail=_31DEA295-1704-4696-AC6A-24415CB6F358 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Apr 10, 2019, at 9:06 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
Does this include a daily summary?  Was that part of the = process?

It could be.   That raises the question of whether = =E2=80=9Cdaily=E2=80=9D is the right frequency, though.   Possibly = it should be more like work-daily, since if we account for time zones, = there are arguably three work days per calendar day and in a virtual = interim of the type Wes described, all of those hours would potentially = be active.   So having a person who volunteers to do the summary = for each of the three time intervals would probably be good.

Alternatively, we could = do a running summary in the wiki.   More work, but probably more = effective.

= --Apple-Mail=_31DEA295-1704-4696-AC6A-24415CB6F358-- From nobody Tue Apr 16 22:27:39 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADFE12045D for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:27:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q5cpRblM_rAq for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.hardakers.net (mail.hardakers.net [168.150.192.181]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0A08120451 for ; Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [10.0.0.3]) by mail.hardakers.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 256C62798D; Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:27:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Wes Hardaker To: Ted Lemon Cc: manycouches@ietf.org References: Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:27:34 -0700 In-Reply-To: (Ted Lemon's message of "Wed, 10 Apr 2019 08:38:49 -0400") Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 05:27:38 -0000 Ted Lemon writes: Thanks Ted for poking us (and sorry for the delay on my end). I've been giving this a lot of thought since our couch/comfy-chairs discussion at IETF104. > I would like to try out some of the stuff that Wes talked about in his pr= esentation at > HotRFC: rather than just doing a normal BoF, I=E2=80=99d like to see if w= e can use existing > tools to achieve some of what Wes described. We will still want to do s= ome online > video discussion, but I=E2=80=99d also like to try using a Wiki and an in= terim-only mailing > list as the primary communication method, and do the BoF over two days to= give us time > to participate in the way Wes described. This may fail miserably or may= go well=E2=80=94we > can only find out by trying. I think that sounds like a good approach to try. We have to experiment somehow, so lets try it! My thoughts last week actually turned toward: we should hold an interim every month-ish, for a limited time (I was thinking 24hrs, but your 48 does make more sense to get at least 1 RTT per person). But I'd also like to ask people to think about what they want to do for that 48hrs and make each one different. Let's collect experiment results, essentially, and try new things every time and see what works and what doesn't. So, the first one is already laid out: your wiki idea is an intriguing one, so I'm all for it! --=20 Wes Hardaker USC/ISI From nobody Wed Apr 17 08:12:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E01120369 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:12:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hUtBJ8ykQcUY for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x236.google.com (mail-oi1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57C63120465 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x236.google.com with SMTP id e5so20332829oii.0 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:12:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AzE1X/J62zqNpgFzPzMcmPZ+Oktte1qiH4NF9HOsLCA=; b=MiYzOWhWctyNdjDYrE7EyqMJpOUYe94tHnQ25n5NZnfd7Uw3hYM4Un15SXVZdMXLH5 1W1DWSkeIktslHF4P8b4QY+OZec/W2dwaAvsgDxgift5fuDFCQRFLED4Nd2ofMeRMjDA k6XBzaHRqnTvkmko/xnNymt00eEDH1zMPPoeHsW8vDqqbWrFue0iLuT20dxK5eao6v6x 04cQXtW/A3ZiQq7efZtiLeMA9UklF9SbJH6RUmpU6UwPTzKrJ+roTOMOHE5PE6hfhyvS fqGZ6p/OlNHNMLGefKlfpcopLfVn36rp53aT6BaKhi6rHtk/6kqSP8EVXK65Zvm2qmWJ cflg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AzE1X/J62zqNpgFzPzMcmPZ+Oktte1qiH4NF9HOsLCA=; b=PtzhcEn6YETsuREwn8eMnOs2XFVFOcEc5miiXxveCskEdFPw4w6OiquY/D0+sQcHLK F5LlkQi+YhPpjyONbJxP/yVwtdB64HnEzV/+eGiPVuE5iq3tu44XOaxWDOpw8NmY/9Cm afIno92OmT1SZ6OQ/pcr6faeOOEVfyPPgL3YjagH52GBy5MXx9fsCZ7wQAqlpoQsB4o0 SJGg4AbmBrertHc5QecZJForbxiphCbd77YCOWPkPkPv+6RKsQBkENp4cJ/A0fFi29PR tmCvp0ZfEJwp2gvRFte/w+Kd98giiV/x9s0KhF1JLiHCBJXsa9txKM95fCjaJVppo/UW PR0w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVT5m3qUKI6uREtKW9UVJDvPBCcIrQm986sOI5iFvoqvc7sHQ6j ZU2WN05dkPGYm/FaE/MZKyyfItQ68PfFxXneaXuLuZd+Wbw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyliGanT/4jZnRljRG2mE/vb1uOt93NkpobBbvTw3L2nY0Eblht6Q/loAb1dy+fKIT0OWW5gvnZKNJ1KE+emeA= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4a0a:: with SMTP id x10mr26121959oia.82.1555513924185; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 08:12:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: "Mukom Akong T." Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:11:32 +0400 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4f9240586bb4e8e" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:12:15 -0000 --000000000000e4f9240586bb4e8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 at 16:39, Ted Lemon wrote: > At the BoF we had a round table discussion about what peoples ideas were > for getting the IETF into a new mode of operation that makes better use o= f > the technology we=E2=80=99ve developed, > I think we ought to question even the tools and not assume that the current tools as we have now are the best ones for the new approach we want to try. If there's some more effective tool out there, let's find it and try it. It's better to settle on current tools with the secure knowledge that we've tried the alternatives. > > I would like to try out some of the stuff that Wes talked about in his > presentation at HotRFC: rather than just doing a normal BoF, I=E2=80=99d = like to > see if we can use existing tools to achieve some of what Wes described. > We will still want to do some online video discussion, but I=E2=80=99d al= so like to > try using a Wiki and an interim-only mailing list as the primary > communication method, and do the BoF over two days to give us time to > participate in the way Wes described. This may fail miserably or may go > well=E2=80=94we can only find out by trying. > Agree about moving into action. Could we start by having an online page somewhere which states what we're trying to accomplish and gives context? An email chain might not be the best way to do this. It could be - wiki - dropbox paper - google doc - etc etc I'd suggest it be structured in the form of an experiment in a form like Objective: Run a BoF completely with no travel =E2=94=9C Key Result #1: 100% of BOF planning and execution done completely= online =E2=94=9C Key Result #2: 50% of those who sign up for the BoF stick through= till the end =E2=94=9C Key Result #3: 75% of those who stick to the end agree to sign up= for a second BoF The numbers we can play with. > > If we go ahead with this, one of the things I will ask is that you add to > the Wiki your recollection of what you said in the bar BoF. I at least > didn=E2=80=99t take notes, and I don=E2=80=99t think Wes did either, but = I think there was > a lot of useful stuff exchanged there. > I sure will > > Does anybody object to this approach? If I don=E2=80=99t hear loud obje= ctions, > I=E2=80=99ll set up a wiki and ask people to work on it; I=E2=80=99d like= it if we could do > that work *before* the interim so that at the interim we can talk about > it and form some ideas for experimentation. > > Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --=20 Mukom Akong T. LinkedIn:Mukom | twitter: @perfexcellent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------- =E2=80=9CWhen you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whisperin= g of the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------- --000000000000e4f9240586bb4e8e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 = at 16:39, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.co= m> wrote:
=C2=A0At the BoF we had a round = table discussion about what peoples ideas were for getting the IETF into a = new mode of operation that makes better use of the technology we=E2=80=99ve= developed,


I think we= ought to question even the tools and not assume that the current tools as = we have now are the best ones for the new approach we want to try.
If there's some more effective tool out there, let's find it and = try it. It's better to settle on current tools with the secure knowledg= e that we've tried the alternatives.


=C2=A0

I would like to try = out some of the stuff that Wes talked about in his presentation at HotRFC: = rather than just doing a normal BoF, I=E2=80=99d like to see if we can use = existing tools to achieve some of what Wes described. =C2=A0 We will still = want to do some online video discussion, but I=E2=80=99d also like to try u= sing a Wiki and an interim-only mailing list as the primary communication m= ethod, and do the BoF over two days to give us time to participate in the w= ay Wes described. =C2=A0 This may fail miserably or may go well=E2=80=94we = can only find out by trying.

Agree about moving into action. Could we start by having an on= line page somewhere which states what we're trying to accomplish and gi= ves context? An email chain might not be the best way to do this. It could = be

- wiki
- dropbox paper
- go= ogle doc
- etc etc

I'd suggest it be= structured in the form of an experiment in a form like

Objective: Run a BoF completely with no travel
=E2=94=9C Ke= y Result #1: 100% of BOF planning and execution done completely online
=E2=94=9C Key Result #2: 50% of those who sign up for the BoF stick t= hrough till the end
=E2=94=9C Key Result #3: 75% of those who sti= ck to the end agree to sign up for a second BoF

Th= e numbers we can play with.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=

If we go ahead with this, one of the things I will ask = is that you add to the Wiki your recollection of what you said in the bar B= oF. =C2=A0 I at least didn=E2=80=99t take notes, and I don=E2=80=99t think = Wes did either, but I think there was a lot of useful stuff exchanged there= .

I sure will
=C2=A0<= /div>

Does anybody object to this = approach? =C2=A0 If I don=E2=80=99t hear loud objections, I=E2=80=99ll set = up a wiki and ask people to work on it; I=E2=80=99d like it if we could do = that work before=C2=A0the interim = so that at the interim we can talk about it and form some ideas for experim= entation.

Thanks!

____________________= ___________________________
Manycouches mailing list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


--

Mukom Akong T.

= LinkedIn:Mukom=C2=A0=C2=A0| =C2=A0twitter: @perfexc= ellent =C2=A0
-------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------
=E2=80=9CWhen you work, you are the FLUTE thr= ough whose lungs the whispering of the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil = Gibran
-----------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------------------<= br>
--000000000000e4f9240586bb4e8e-- From nobody Wed Apr 17 09:41:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 403BA120483 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CNfo5kHE3uWR for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23AEC120477 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 407714EB; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:40:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=+x1wk+a4GHwCVxuBetYnv5Hk4nV4yP5Kk5MGZMZr6 zk=; b=Wu8XGr1Z94Kimsa2RoZg69JqWo2kjQ36zae46gYA0J6CKRQLfVQY0zLeP WPPFRWauyO6gM6VBZKywQ20x20kn9w22wuZd2xTVMChdhe2FCgWjvQrkatY1T/D8 6eaVv1TJb8aCKuMTJlApGMaso/xThXzwXkgP/G7PzOEeQP0G9mgyy3sey+oqXhw8 qnljsZZ1cxTwrY4v/IHpxe2YE1Alf2Jgz65UAOxMViwQd1zdivrWLEYAbsjc0U7U P4e0tL1VZR1SEkIR+jgVYKjR6hxZyvbLwszO8GY8GWVN0RfxZSPFEMtNW+9gXiWG 94xdSfGzrK8oPGYIs+79CJbwlc2iA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddrfeefgddutdefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.66] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id DA6A3E44A1; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:40:55 -0400 (EDT) To: manycouches@ietf.org References: From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:40:55 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:40:59 -0000 I think we have to start somewhere, so starting with some base case - say just email - makes more sense than trying every tool right off the bat. Or _maybe_ email and some sort of shared editor that can keep track of what's been concluded. but even then we need to have some discipline for what to put where.   Also, if we use multiple tools without some kind of integration between them I don't think we'll find that collection of tools very useful.   Sometimes even when sticking to one tool - say slack - I find that the information that emerges from the discussion is so scattered that it's nearly unusable. I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity, and would not want to see IETF adopt such tools.  So, for instance, google anything is (IMO) not appropriate. We should decide what kind of tools we need rather than insisting on shoehorning our activity into existing tools.   And I'm not aware of an existing tool that would do the job well. On 4/17/19 11:11 AM, Mukom Akong T. wrote: > I think we ought to question even the tools and not assume that the > current tools as we have now are the best ones for the new approach we > want to try. > If there's some more effective tool out there, let's find it and try > it. It's better to settle on current tools with the secure knowledge > that we've tried the alternatives. > From nobody Wed Apr 17 12:34:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03A5F12046F for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:34:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VEjSoucpUSoY for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5637C120463 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 12:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2:56b2:3ff:fe0b:d84]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 115E63808A; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 1F6373A26; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:34:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sandelman.ca (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CF73DBF; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 15:34:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Michael Richardson To: Keith Moore cc: manycouches@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> References: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:34:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Keith Moore wrote: > I think we have to start somewhere, so starting with some base case - > say just email - makes more sense than trying every tool right off the > bat. > Or _maybe_ email and some sort of shared editor that can keep track o= f what's > been concluded. but even then we need to have some discipline for wha= t to put > where.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, if we use multiple tools without some kind of > integration It sounds like we want a wiki technology that uses git as a backend. The repo can be cloned, and the history can be a signed commit/tag giving a clear statement as to what has been concluded. There are quite few options, including what github offers via host jekyll: https://www.google.com/search?q=3Dwiki+with+git+backend https://duckduckgo.com/?q=3Dwiki+with+git+backend&t=3Dh_&ia=3Dweb > I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity, and= would > not want to see IETF adopt such tools.=C2=A0 So, for instance, google= anything is > (IMO) not appropriate. I understand your view. This view has become a barrier to entry for many. I wish that weren't so. > We should decide what kind of tools we need rather than insisting on > shoehorning our activity into existing tools.=C2=A0=C2=A0 And I'm not= aware of an > existing tool that would do the job well. =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAly3f8sACgkQgItw+93Q 3WVwAQgAiYfidY7GZuXcaErg/0QYXboqcfQErmRXIXuco9pHVrlLb+ypKsiJa/P3 Wk4bBYl4YXNRr11jPjsBjR7xPQMruzjbem5BS1Ionbw/lJ3Hj5PVS1kveFEsPZ8z zvNHRsKZUzwzRRwdIZozeF/MoZw0UAhiCtXJMyCrjBTLZj70z3svm2DB76nJeGpp p2AVHBRT2a9yZXcvEzdb18jdB7hAh79hK/t3Pq+g0pbOKMWP80+T9aSfAhH54fUP 9/eqRfR2garZNF+MNJn5qiVK5vukwDbIKcNqrO83QhlOye17zC/lxEaULCCtTSvm Cj10OMQs9omXQsK6ZQysUMo4Vxma9A== =KU0Z -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Apr 17 13:42:20 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BA961203E9 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:42:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V2SE25UHxrM9 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C23AA1203E7 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5FA452D; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:42:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=XBGmPpzybLgiRZqnBmc56sBS/dy9al1waRdGH5UTT 1E=; b=a1aMBccmNj7ejS4nhGZySl6fQUlNLeyWFjPp+6R2QDhAmtRs3yBnTNBGY 4Cff4OaxeYfJmu0JmVLhnf1fjXPDSPNtpM2Zh2XqdZgZpqKnYsQQYzUdwaeEmJga hVqBvr9eFusC9B3JRYuQn22CGPdhFhhiIH9rH2SVGatLgdtxH8iXs7epoPV2zsug IFz0ajJk9zgeblv6mojJfSmqlARn+3cG9thiepx8128iLuwicpfJA4FYjVqhXHrx v/l/DBxtJewakX+cK5xhh1Slr2gRvELpEwn7LHqJq9ZQtnSMj/8WOkxfu6wT+F0T aEJdCFwEDcw3QUPMpD1bzu06lIYRQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddrfeefgdduhedvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefuvfhfhffkffgfgggjtgfgsehtke ertddtfeejnecuhfhrohhmpefmvghithhhucfoohhorhgvuceomhhoohhrvgesnhgvthif ohhrkhdqhhgvrhgvthhitghsrdgtohhmqeenucfkphepuddtkedrvddvuddrudektddrud ehnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfihorhhkqdhhvghr vghtihgtshdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.66] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 962FF103CD; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:42:14 -0400 (EDT) To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> <8873.1555529676@localhost> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <3c554414-d96b-b8a9-d8c2-6aedb433230a@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 16:42:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8873.1555529676@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 20:42:19 -0000 On 4/17/19 3:34 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity, and would > > not want to see IETF adopt such tools.  So, for instance, google anything is > > (IMO) not appropriate. > > I understand your view. > This view has become a barrier to entry for many. I wish that weren't so. I wish more people respected others' privacy. And BTW, I also wouldn't consider using any service owned by Microsoft. From nobody Wed Apr 17 19:41:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E86C4120158 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:41:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9d7tNQbFPl2i for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x336.google.com (mail-ot1-x336.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::336]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2193C120088 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x336.google.com with SMTP id u15so436116otq.10 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:40:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UCEmts5fOrHghzsfACO4HWVX9dJpOOYra0CssnFeuxg=; b=NsA2O3u39DRFf12z7nH6UpSwb7Qs61CxAnmeByVaN3NFFxpYFWWU8a9wIXh0b6KG/I CIEnVl03QD3qgd0ORgCnyV0X7MFIibsrrtDbAWmPuvDo3vhD4eAewOE9UcSOIfC4XdKx wM8vbXX9E5rauWC6wdd8Zm/v6tNFKq8gTQ5S7yRKfXUv6/yyuvhinlZ7yhckE9he94o6 YT2DKVxp4Nu183eXRSKVV3ZTC7oYWtzIeX/PC0El8cstwccsotTeUL1VxL7Cmen4PmyB U5DxmuoJqJO/AyWFrBZqXRN5vmkbMR/ysq3RT+fnLuGyrfGtbVrBaP8MkTFx3Jh47nwM yAQQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UCEmts5fOrHghzsfACO4HWVX9dJpOOYra0CssnFeuxg=; b=gv4/yVnV+EVlAQgEtm4kN9t7Clky92Yfj6C7/qgRZypL2KAf8/N14Wb8mzYkDLeIQx dmmWMpx2gDdCBT8y1NKlo1xsTQIq8KaWwJ4p0eY3J2wXwFClvOS+y9aHu2HT8JrX3lax /80fPVueGEPYi3/3SDaLjmIIWb5ZXkOO2v+EDm9TdZ8H8EZMYOtXkwB7kvnXvE7kFsKB ICQcBG44Xi2i7w/u+Fo/rFfkcin3r11sDniJMicSWGmajG8oavAp1P7HLy6pXy46rSw8 hry+fhN5UGL2Ud8Yyoz6yqiVNnIzOhOAoqeaTzPbXlx1kQzv9rdMH4OySU2Pw3GY9bvN +aSg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWj3lb9AlG+QGuvPvgRUd7MKkSMbyJorjjF/LUuxHsDqJn65DGs i4Qdsr6oSpmrbUBQyUpcIy6fuqmved7kThAFMpE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw4OsMFyOH631ujz+HDwp/Zjrg1geQtCybrditUEZI3N75NlGa3+P4+HJBWac0siUqN7q8CZEZSzssKPg1nECs= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7e91:: with SMTP id m17mr54831408otp.78.1555555257033; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:40:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> From: "Mukom Akong T." Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 06:40:26 +0400 Message-ID: To: Keith Moore Cc: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000862c370586c4eeb0" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:41:03 -0000 --000000000000862c370586c4eeb0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 20:41, Keith Moore wrote: > I think we have to start somewhere, so starting with some base case - > say just email - makes more sense than trying every tool right off the ba= t. > trying "every other tool" for say X months is starting somewhere and will enable us to pick the most effective tool with the confidence of experience= . > > shared editor that can keep track of > what's been concluded. this looks like a good requirement. > but even then we need to have some discipline for > what to put where. Also, if we use multiple tools without some kind of > integration between them I don't think we'll find that collection of > tools very useful. tech integration between multiple tools is a good requirement at a future state. in the beginning and for a small number of people, that discipline can be provided with a imple process that we all agree to follow. > Sometimes even when sticking to one tool - say > slack - I find that the information that emerges from the discussion is > so scattered that it's nearly unusable. > i use slack extensively at work, we define clearly what needs to conversations that happen in slack - if it's a key decision, someone gets an action item to make an entry into the team's "Decision Log" (a wiki page) - if it's a set of tasks that need to be done, someone gets an action item to create those as tasks in a project management system (JIRA) with a due date and assignee most "tool problems" are really just a lack of discipline in following a pre-agreed upon process. > > I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity, and > would not want to see IETF adopt such tools. So, for instance, google > anything is (IMO) not appropriate. > that's fair and we can use that as a requirement for evaluating different tools: "does not track user activity" > > We should decide what kind of tools we need rather than insisting on > shoehorning our activity into existing tools. And I'm not aware of an > existing tool that would do the job well. > thank you. this is the thinking behind my suggestion. if we are trying to do something different, it _may_ not be possible to use existing tools, thinking and processes. > > On 4/17/19 11:11 AM, Mukom Akong T. wrote: > > I think we ought to question even the tools and not assume that the > > current tools as we have now are the best ones for the new approach we > > want to try. > > If there's some more effective tool out there, let's find it and try > > it. It's better to settle on current tools with the secure knowledge > > that we've tried the alternatives. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --=20 Mukom Akong T. LinkedIn:Mukom | twitter: @perfexcellent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------- =E2=80=9CWhen you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whisperin= g of the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------- --000000000000862c370586c4eeb0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 at 20:41, Keith M= oore <moore@network-hereti= cs.com> wrote:
I think we have to start somewhere, so starting with some base case -=
say just email - makes more sense than trying every tool right off the= bat.


trying "every= other tool" for say X months is starting somewhere and will enable us= to pick the most effective tool with the confidence of experience.

=C2=A0

shared editor that can keep track of
what's been concluded.


this looks like a good requirem= ent.

=C2=A0
but even then we need to have some discipline for
what= to put where.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Also, if we use multiple tools without some kind= of
integration between them I don't think we'll find that coll= ection of
tools very useful.


=
tech integration between multiple tools is a good requirement at a fut= ure state. in the beginning and for a small number of people, that discipli= ne can be provided with a imple process that we all agree to follow.
<= div>
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sometimes even when sticking to one tool - say
slack= - I find that the information that emerges from the discussion is
so s= cattered that it's nearly unusable.

i use slack extensively at work, we define clearly what needs to conversat= ions that happen in slack

- if it's a key deci= sion, someone gets an action item to make an entry into the team's &quo= t;Decision Log"=C2=A0 (a wiki page)
- if it's a set of t= asks that need to be done, someone gets an action item to create those as t= asks in a project management system (JIRA) with a due date and assignee

most "tool problems" are really just a lack= of discipline in following a pre-agreed upon process.
=C2=A0

I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity, and <= br>would not want to see IETF adopt such tools.=C2=A0 So, for instance, goo= gle
anything is (IMO) not appropriate.

<= div>that's fair and we can use that as a requirement for evaluating dif= ferent tools: "does not track user activity"
=C2=A0

We should decide what kind of tools we need rather than insisting on shoehorning our activity into existing tools.=C2=A0=C2=A0 And I'm not= aware of an
existing tool that would do the job well.
=


thank you. this is the thinking behind m= y suggestion. if we are trying to do something different, it _may_ not be p= ossible to use existing tools, thinking and processes.
=C2=A0

On 4/17/19 11:11 AM, Mukom Akong T. wrote:
> I think we ought to = question even the tools and not assume that the
> current tools as w= e have now are the best ones for the new approach we
> want to try.<= br>> If there's some more effective tool out there, let's find i= t and try
> it. It's better to settle on current tools with the = secure knowledge
> that we've tried the alternatives.
>
_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing = list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


--

Mukom Akong T.

= LinkedIn:Mukom=C2=A0=C2=A0| =C2=A0twitter: @perfexc= ellent =C2=A0
-------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------
=E2=80=9CWhen you work, you are the FLUTE thr= ough whose lungs the whispering of the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil = Gibran
-----------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------------------<= br>
--000000000000862c370586c4eeb0-- From nobody Wed Apr 17 19:46:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9032F120158 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:46:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id By08T4h8vdR9 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22a.google.com (mail-oi1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C59B120074 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id w139so437724oie.9 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QsP7cS5gWgioxAQPcCnIig7FNF6fQGpIDNGJJa5DmBg=; b=QXgroqCn3RCkcTYDK/9aNXlQ6xXtLt+3ugHGlG2QO/KHgCeJahc4XESQEc1Ryf/9wh PwBLl5mfHDigRtYXKzgEIE1KJhKhS9Be51lmgHHQ22dCCkB9DEpmQOq1XFGOeOEr6H0s 4kL8VtbHYwnHZHjk90KAhlnnE+K2F8pwuWK60i2uOp5SDcrCCq7GyNtjPNBtl9tfyn2Q rGVfJAW94oiZTCdtOpTHI8RCWMRkeZRQwgBT3evPicjoTvZWuQFf9W23GX0u8ybCvH0R QZp2AWJIv97BRV6CbvkBEC1R64CGfghedw2z2VMpun2k63w1sbPInfF9n3la3Ze2D/KM 2IlQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=QsP7cS5gWgioxAQPcCnIig7FNF6fQGpIDNGJJa5DmBg=; b=Dq4fb6dXsZRkCI1/t+N3AbVTjpgyAxXfNtQEJfl3o9dB0olmkQXXr2UsUk/OwlK2R/ ek2660A3pGZ2MNlEy9WPELAeXlIndIcY8w59OB3zcj1BK0jCKQ73PF8x7pqsuPHHuH4n XNo0oJ/327qcBGY+A7P5PSFyJ92/QLI3k4kvxe7Brm8UdQyEBN1iYV1/IjVkX3fF5GTl yTO+VexRdeYBKsrD0llh+N5IsmLxwTKde8KYrkPFrfZwBqzFZ2O/cohbJdnX5gZLKOou zPMqHMOsZFJRdBCZzyl2w/nKo+nNiRNSClVKrAkbhT29wsLeSMDK9RuaEJFIzVTrYt+G 3qNA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXP+YfFRxgbFvgwnalocHTlr6cp9isLkkCHtsZhDtj5I3y6fB/u HqrQ394+atSWnxCSYnH2hjynTQhNFPPlIPIcZYdKa2LK X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwzJSpo4I1nn3RBIRYf6SqgelVEsSMTXRYiquBvpc0THcTbe7nveKRoPNAKrbqJKibi5swidigzK9yI2pcin3o= X-Received: by 2002:aca:db57:: with SMTP id s84mr437593oig.101.1555555589320; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:46:29 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> <8873.1555529676@localhost> <3c554414-d96b-b8a9-d8c2-6aedb433230a@network-heretics.com> In-Reply-To: <3c554414-d96b-b8a9-d8c2-6aedb433230a@network-heretics.com> From: "Mukom Akong T." Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 06:45:58 +0400 Message-ID: To: manycouches@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000054737e0586c502dc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:46:35 -0000 --00000000000054737e0586c502dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable One of the issues that Ted raised that got me to come to the BoF is the fact that not enough new people are coming into the IETF. Also bear in mind that while I respect everyone's desire for privacy and thus not use tools from Google or Microsoft or Facebook, those tools might be the only options available right now affordable to lots and lots and lots of engineers. If we want to open up the work we do, we will have to find an answer to that. On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 00:42, Keith Moore wrote: > On 4/17/19 3:34 PM, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity= , > and would > > > not want to see IETF adopt such tools. So, for instance, google > anything is > > > (IMO) not appropriate. > > > > I understand your view. > > This view has become a barrier to entry for many. I wish that weren't > so. > > I wish more people respected others' privacy. > > And BTW, I also wouldn't consider using any service owned by Microsoft. > > > _______________________________________________ > Manycouches mailing list > Manycouches@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches > --=20 Mukom Akong T. LinkedIn:Mukom | twitter: @perfexcellent ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------- =E2=80=9CWhen you work, you are the FLUTE through whose lungs the whisperin= g of the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil Gibran ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------- --00000000000054737e0586c502dc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

One of the issues that Ted= raised that got me to come to the BoF is the fact that not enough new peop= le are coming into the IETF.

Also bear in mind tha= t while I respect everyone's desire for privacy and thus not use tools = from Google or Microsoft or Facebook, those tools might be the only options= available right now affordable to lots and lots and lots of engineers.=C2= =A0

If we want to open up the work we do, we will = have to find an answer to that.


On Thu, 18 Apr 2019 at 00:42,= Keith Moore <moore@networ= k-heretics.com> wrote:
On 4/17/19 3:34 PM, Michael Richardson wrote:

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I also am loathe to use third-party tools= that track my activity, and would
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > not wan= t to see IETF adopt such tools.=C2=A0 So, for instance, google anything is<= br>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > (IMO) not appropriate.
>
> I u= nderstand your view.
> This view has become a barrier to entry for ma= ny.=C2=A0 I wish that weren't so.

I wish more people respected others' privacy.

And BTW, I also wouldn't consider using any service owned by Micros= oft.


_______________________________________________
Manycouches mailing = list
Manycouches@ietf.= org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/manycouches


--

Mukom Akong T.

= LinkedIn:Mukom=C2=A0=C2=A0| =C2=A0twitter: @perfexc= ellent =C2=A0
-------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------
=E2=80=9CWhen you work, you are the FLUTE thr= ough whose lungs the whispering of the hours turns to MUSIC" - Kahlil = Gibran
-----------------------------------------------------------------= --------------------------------------------------------------------------<= br>
--00000000000054737e0586c502dc-- From nobody Wed Apr 17 19:55:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44BAC1201B0 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:55:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, GB_AFFORDABLE=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 31vWc8vRqzP5 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F38C120074 for ; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 19:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compute6.internal (compute6.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89D6857F; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 22:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute6.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 17 Apr 2019 22:55:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=ZTAeLLpEJyhvWgu9uZvGxJVwkBPC6bOaseAKZec1g SM=; b=zYyq7TXATgQ7Hc9Pbmo0xrG1qPbN0Y/i2Uibi49AxY+LuIwIRtRVv/OwY ngcEFtHdYIl0jK5YU2OhFiI09q6BSMRDhDf9OODp27TiJ2ePRFJ2LG6nQz6AMVBD 1dK/gLS2zGhzCx4jIANUY0EgQm7qwSxIkzQG9XjA/kmVAyYsVISm/ACtmID2nq1n nKCFnbfl+s8RMmrS20kAJRT6kGpINTa1LxAMXRQ6Jkj75f/axqHCyFOObJwDRiVQ yZdEikTZ6FWmfbnz9XYZYqEz40RH/Ga/kvBg00yL5nFknAk8GT+9tVZxSuKEMrrq FpAZX0/9IKFzShiOmVpZYkJGjLtWw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduuddrfeeggdeivdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthekre dttdefjeenucfhrhhomhepmfgvihhthhcuofhoohhrvgcuoehmohhorhgvsehnvghtfiho rhhkqdhhvghrvghtihgtshdrtghomheqnecukfhppedutdekrddvvddurddukedtrdduhe enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhoohhrvgesnhgvthifohhrkhdqhhgvrhgv thhitghsrdgtohhmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.1.66] (108-221-180-15.lightspeed.knvltn.sbcglobal.net [108.221.180.15]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA096103C8; Wed, 17 Apr 2019 22:55:45 -0400 (EDT) To: manycouches@ietf.org References: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> <8873.1555529676@localhost> <3c554414-d96b-b8a9-d8c2-6aedb433230a@network-heretics.com> From: Keith Moore Message-ID: <107e2c12-7e74-6670-4884-5dc373d75f3b@network-heretics.com> Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2019 22:55:44 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.6.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:55:50 -0000 On 4/17/19 10:45 PM, Mukom Akong T. wrote: > One of the issues that Ted raised that got me to come to the BoF is > the fact that not enough new people are coming into the IETF. > > Also bear in mind that while I respect everyone's desire for privacy > and thus not use tools from Google or Microsoft or Facebook, those > tools might be the only options available right now affordable to lots > and lots and lots of engineers. > > If we want to open up the work we do, we will have to find an answer > to that. I still remember the days when we were able to effectively collaborate using just email, so I guess I think it's probably still possible.   That said, there are some things that email can't do well. Also, IETF has its own tools for several things already, so I'm not sure why it should be out-of-scope to add another tool or two.   There are advantages and disadvantages to that (e.g. I hate that people pretty much have to learn a special dialect of XML to write internet-drafts), but it should be within the realm of consideration. Keith From nobody Thu Apr 18 02:34:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: manycouches@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B856120123 for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:34:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2s2u7cdLp0CV for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [IPv6:2001:638:a000:4134::ffff:40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D62112016D for ; Thu, 18 Apr 2019 02:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de [131.188.34.52]) by faui40.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3507D548560; Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:34:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: by faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Postfix, from userid 10463) id 1B321440036; Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:34:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:34:27 +0200 From: Toerless Eckert To: "Mukom Akong T." Cc: Keith Moore , manycouches@ietf.org Message-ID: <20190418093426.6ieph5oz274fj6at@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <7b4e4551-3d10-0b6e-91c1-4bc51c8d0831@network-heretics.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Manycouches] DOGFOOD Virtual BoF X-BeenThere: manycouches@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "List is a design team list to identify issues that would arise should an IETF meeting ever be held with O\(1000\) 'remote' participants." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 09:34:35 -0000 On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 06:40:26AM +0400, Mukom Akong T. wrote: > > shared editor that can keep track of > > what's been concluded. > this looks like a good requirement. compared to IMHO the tooling issues in other areas, i think etherpad is doing pretty well. The main problem IMHO is the logistics discipline to set up manually some wiki page for some effort in which to collect all relevant URLs for the effort at hand so that not every participant needs to bookmark everything and newcomers don't have to beg to figure out how an efforts toling is structured. > tech integration between multiple tools is a good requirement at a future > state. in the beginning and for a small number of people, that discipline > can be provided with a imple process that we all agree to follow. See above. One single URL for an effort to remember, rest of logistics should follow from there. IMHO that means root URL is on a wiki. > > Sometimes even when sticking to one tool - say > > slack - I find that the information that emerges from the discussion is > > so scattered that it's nearly unusable. > i use slack extensively at work, we define clearly what needs to > conversations that happen in slack Never used slack. Would love to see someone giving a summary of best practices and what it achieves and what not. > - if it's a key decision, someone gets an action item to make an entry into > the team's "Decision Log" (a wiki page) > - if it's a set of tasks that need to be done, someone gets an action item > to create those as tasks in a project management system (JIRA) with a due > date and assignee > > most "tool problems" are really just a lack of discipline in following a > pre-agreed upon process. consumer instead of contributor mentality ;-) Who can take minutes at a wg meeting.... ;-)) > > I also am loathe to use third-party tools that track my activity, and > > would not want to see IETF adopt such tools. So, for instance, google > > anything is (IMO) not appropriate. > > that's fair and we can use that as a requirement for evaluating different > tools: "does not track user activity" How much is an effort willing to pay for or contribute to tools whose business model is not tracking or advertisement ? Lets start with creating awareness of the tools business model and judge later. The interest in not being tracked would IMHO also differ widely based on what a particular effort is. > > We should decide what kind of tools we need rather than insisting on > > shoehorning our activity into existing tools. And I'm not aware of an > > existing tool that would do the job well. > > thank you. this is the thinking behind my suggestion. if we are trying to > do something different, it _may_ not be possible to use existing tools, > thinking and processes. Its always good to have convincing justification to do something new. Nobody can of course be stopped to reinvent the weel unnecessarily, but if there are any spare resources for creating something new, it would be great if those resources could be steered to where the biggest gaps are, and not just where the most fun in unnecessary repetitious work is. [ can we please spend 10x the work for the web-page to re-skin it... every 3..4 years.. and taking the web-page repeatedly down in the process... and make it actually worse afterwards... except in the eyes of whoever seems to judge how much money our company is worth... ] sorry, couldn't resist. ;-)) Cheers Toerless