Received: from smtp015.mail.yahoo.com (smtp015.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.173.59]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with SMTP id j9RKnaWl012468 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:49:36 -0700 Received: (qmail 44647 invoked from network); 27 Oct 2005 20:48:51 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=snake; d=yahoo-inc.com; h=Received:Message-ID:Date:From:Organization:User-Agent:X-Accept-Language:MIME-Version:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=oD7LW70/UqG+jhdpFDKhezre6aNgdLESyD6Y7nNVDjwo8p961tVXqUrQht0ufHey ; Received: from unknown (HELO ?66.228.167.95?) (jdfalk@66.228.167.95 with plain) by smtp015.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 27 Oct 2005 20:48:51 -0000 Message-ID: <43613D30.9020904@yahoo-inc.com> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:48:48 -0700 From: "J.D. Falk" Organization: Yahoo! User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.7.5) Gecko/20041206 Thunderbird/1.0 Mnenhy/0.6.0.104 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org Subject: Re: [feedback-report] Feedback-Type - any traction on others besides abuse? References: <1130426802.18605.11.camel@jmacdonald-work.e-dialog.com> In-Reply-To: <1130426802.18605.11.camel@jmacdonald-work.e-dialog.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: jdfalk@yahoo-inc.com X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:49:38 -0000 On 2005-10-27 08:26, Jeff Macdonald wrote: > I see that outblaze has adopted ARF. Luckily I didn't need to modify one > line of code to handle the new format. However, I realized that my > system will handle all reports as abuse reports, since that is what the > mailbox is for. We'd imagined that most Report Receivers would add some simple code to detect the various feedback types and deal with each as appropriate per their own policies. The feedback types are merely advisory; if you as Report Receiver want to receive different types at a different address, that's between you and the Report Generator. The format itself doesn't care. -- J.D. Falk, Anti-Spam Product Manager Yahoo! Communications Platform Team Received: from pix525.e-dialog.com (pix525.e-dialog.com [64.28.75.220]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9RFRSU3008384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:27:28 -0700 Received: from sneezy.e-dialog.com (sneezy.ad.e-dialog.com [10.0.30.80]) by pix525.e-dialog.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9RFVdM6004168 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:31:39 -0400 Received: from jm-node4.e-dialog.com ([10.0.40.189]) by sneezy.e-dialog.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:26:43 -0400 From: Jeff Macdonald To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org Content-Type: text/plain Organization: E-Dialog Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:26:42 -0400 Message-Id: <1130426802.18605.11.camel@jmacdonald-work.e-dialog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Evolution 2.0.2 (2.0.2-22) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Oct 2005 15:26:43.0363 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5D59F30:01C5DB0A] X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: jmacdonald@e-dialog.com Subject: [feedback-report] Feedback-Type - any traction on others besides abuse? X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:27:44 -0000 I see that outblaze has adopted ARF. Luckily I didn't need to modify one line of code to handle the new format. However, I realized that my system will handle all reports as abuse reports, since that is what the mailbox is for. Have the early adopters expressed willingness to send other report types besides abuse? -- :: Jeff Macdonald | Principal Engineer, Messaging Technologies :: e-Dialog | jmacdonald@e-dialog.com :: 131 Hartwell Ave. | Lexington, MA 02421 :: v: 781-372-1922 | f: 781-863-8118 :: www.e-dialog.com Received: from gp.word-to-the-wise.com (gp.word-to-the-wise.com [64.71.176.18]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9RE3smR030128 for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:03:54 -0700 Received: by gp.word-to-the-wise.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 69FEE8FC07F; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 07:00:02 -0700 From: Steve Atkins To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org Subject: Re: [feedback-report] Changes to web site, group name, etc Message-ID: <20051027140002.GA13904@gp.word-to-the-wise.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: steve@word-to-the-wise.com X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:04:00 -0000 On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 06:42:18AM -0700, Dave Crocker wrote: > Folks, > > I should have queried about all this sooner. There seems to be some > interest in making some changes to the ARF web page and maybe even to the > mailing list name. I've modified the web page title to reflect what seems > to be your current full name for the group. > > Changing the mailing list name requires creating an entirely new list. > > Changes to the web page are easier, of course, but I'm not sure what > changes you folk want. I need to see something that looks like rough > consensus among the group in order to gauge what changes to make. (My > natural inclination to charge ahead without worrying about group opinion is > frustrated by not have one of my own...) > > The only warning I'll give is to repeat what has already been noted on the > list, namely that there is already established practice, reference, etc. > for this discussion list and you want to be careful not to confuse the > community. I've been talking to a lot of people about ARF. I don't think anyone cares what it stands for, but the acronym is how I've been identifying the format to people. If the name changes then much of that work will be lost, and need to start over. It's likely to be less successful the second time around. Cheers, Steve Received: from [192.168.0.2] (adsl-71-131-29-61.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net [71.131.29.61]) (authenticated bits=0) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9RDh3GL028154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:43:03 -0700 Message-ID: <4360D93A.4060809@dcrocker.net> Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 06:42:18 -0700 From: Dave Crocker Organization: Brandenburg InternetWorking User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.4 (Windows/20050908) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Priority: 2 (High) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: dhc@dcrocker.net Subject: [feedback-report] Changes to web site, group name, etc X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: dcrocker@bbiw.net List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:43:10 -0000 Folks, I should have queried about all this sooner. There seems to be some interest in making some changes to the ARF web page and maybe even to the mailing list name. I've modified the web page title to reflect what seems to be your current full name for the group. Changing the mailing list name requires creating an entirely new list. Changes to the web page are easier, of course, but I'm not sure what changes you folk want. I need to see something that looks like rough consensus among the group in order to gauge what changes to make. (My natural inclination to charge ahead without worrying about group opinion is frustrated by not have one of my own...) The only warning I'll give is to repeat what has already been noted on the list, namely that there is already established practice, reference, etc. for this discussion list and you want to be careful not to confuse the community. d/ ps. I'm not sure the web page points to the current version of the doc. Please let me know if that needs changing, too. Received: from gp.word-to-the-wise.com (gp.word-to-the-wise.com [64.71.176.18]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9P5ltEM009510 for ; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:47:55 -0700 Received: by gp.word-to-the-wise.com (Postfix, from userid 500) id 55C358FC09C; Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:44:06 -0700 From: Steve Atkins To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org Message-ID: <20051025054406.GA17697@gp.word-to-the-wise.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: steve@word-to-the-wise.com Subject: [feedback-report] Another ARF resource X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 05:47:59 -0000 I've cleaned up http://arf.word-to-the-wise.com/ and provided some tools and links to assorted ARF information. If there's anything I'm missing, I'd appreciate an update. Also, if anyone is offering ARF based feedback loops I'd be happy to provide detailed information as to how to sign up for those loops. I haven't linked to the site from anywhere yet; if people could check it for accuracy before I do that'd be a good thing. Cheers, Steve Received: from mta1.habeas.com (mta1.habeas.com [208.184.22.25]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9HHcBMR004295 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:38:11 -0700 Received: from ofw1.habeas.com (63-207-218-130.ded.pacbell.net [63.207.218.130]) by mta1.habeas.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D94CF1BE8; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.9.8.20] (heceta.habeas.com [10.9.8.20]) by ofw1.habeas.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA355139F; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4353E156.7040105@habeas.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:37:26 -0700 From: "Carl S. Gutekunst" Organization: Habeas, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.7 (X11/20050923) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dennis Dayman Subject: Re: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft References: <01ad01c5d33b$964606b0$027ba8c0@LAPTOP> In-Reply-To: <01ad01c5d33b$964606b0$027ba8c0@LAPTOP> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: csg@habeas.com Cc: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:38:21 -0000 Dennis Dayman wrote: >They state that the word "abuse" is a report-type and because the reporting >standard reports on more than just abuse, we should change the >name to something like "Feedback-Report-Format" or something >other than a name that contains one of the report-types in it > > How would you pronounce it? "Ferf" ? :-) The original name of the working group and Yakov's original draft was "abuse reporting." At my request and with the consent of the group, Yakov changed the name and language of the draft to "feedback reporting" and added the feedback type field. My intent in doing so was to remove the stigma associated with the term "abuse" (most of the "complaints" we receive here at Habeas are really unsubscribe requests) and to provide the opportunity for Receivers (e.g., AOL and Outblaze) to differentiate among different complaint streams. (We'd love it if the clients had seperate buttons for "this is spam" and "remove me from this list.") The name "ARF" was coined by Steve Atkins: >I propose "ARF". > >It's an acronynm for "abuse reporting format" and the sound made by >a small, annoying dog, both of which seem quite appropriate. > >(If you don't like "abuse reporting format", how about "arbitrary > reporting format" or "accessible reporting format"?) > Dave Crocker further commented: >thank heavens it isn't a binary format. > >but i suppose your current acronym suggests that the internet is going >to the dogs. > At this point, the name "ARF" is so well established amongst non-technical folks that I'm loath to change it. If someone wants to substitute a different word for the "A", be my guest. Received: from thenose.net (thenose.net [63.96.51.162]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9HHa3NE003981 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:36:03 -0700 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=thenose.net; s=mail; x=1130175303; i=dennis@thenose.net; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=F/VIpTfS3Q9gSdYBaqoULzHoaK98g/GDqWDIuv8ta9HIAEl1Xv/j5Ubqxk8LMHcO YNskO0ea57fq0MnytSJjqcQd5g9IIqGDebB41ydXonCxnG+ngQjGLHcCyYY7a5cG JL2a8TC8gKoeSFCt5Lv26OR5EnaIFqSc/04Pgkn/Zzg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=thenose.net; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=hfxBVGSDLkx6Sb28UTOSzS75zYt/YpBVL2blwfTyIbWtrFsIOYnPWoVGllPGgb+Nae6u802t1bflT1HZ23kyb1TGxlGgxCunKhAymrCcAyRbkeKyUsSXD+cshkikg6usnWiHU09nIq+Ks9RcgAp0sbUz/4sbzXFKFvbzlBYsN+c=; Received: from LAPTOP by thenose.net (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.2.R) with ESMTP id md50000017233.msg for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:02 -0500 From: "Dennis Dayman" To: "'McKenna Gene - gemcke'" , "'Yakov Shafranovich'" , Subject: RE: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01b201c5d341$1d1668b0$027ba8c0@LAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcXS1iVEWD7zNqRYRh6Jxs+ku0GUugAZTBmgAAAnyzAAAUMLQA== X-Authenticated-Sender: dennis@thenose.net X-Spam-Processed: mail.thenose.net, Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:02 -0500 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 71.14.131.214 X-Return-Path: dennis@thenose.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail.thenose.net, Mon, 17 Oct 2005 12:35:03 -0500 X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: dennis@thenose.net Cc: X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:36:09 -0000 Thanks for the clue-batting Gene! Sorry for the confusion. -Dennis > -----Original Message----- > From: McKenna Gene - gemcke [mailto:Gene.McKenna@acxiom.com] > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 12:08 PM > To: Dennis Dayman; Yakov Shafranovich; > abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > Subject: RE: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft > > > Actually the document is fine. The current draft is titled > "An Extensible Format for Email Feedback Reports". It is all > the other external references to the document that seem to > still be using a name like "Abuse Report". I believe the > document changed some time ago and external links, references > and personal habits have not been updated. > > Feedback is the more general term. Abuse is one type of > feedback that may be communicated in these feedback reports. > > Here are some examples where confusion might come in. One can > follow a link at http://www.mipassoc.org/arf/index.html that > says "Abuse Reporting Format" but leads to a document called > "An Extensible Format for Email Feedback Reports". > > Down with ARF > Viva FRF > > Gene > > > Gene McKenna > VP Product Management > Digital Impact Inc. an ACXIOM Company > (650) 356-3661 > > -----Original Message----- > From: abuse-feedback-report-bounces@mipassoc.org > [mailto:abuse-feedback-report-bounces@mipassoc.org] On Behalf > Of Dennis Dayman > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 9:56 AM > To: 'Yakov Shafranovich'; abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > Subject: RE: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft > > Some people have expressed concerns in terms of confusion > around the naming of the document. > > They state that the word "abuse" is a report-type and because > the reporting standard reports on more than just abuse, we > should change the name to something like > "Feedback-Report-Format" or something other than a name that > contains one of the report-types in it > > -Dennis > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: abuse-feedback-report-bounces@mipassoc.org > > [mailto:abuse-feedback-report-bounces@mipassoc.org] On > Behalf Of Yakov > > Shafranovich > > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:48 PM > > To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > > Subject: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft > > > > The existing -01 draft will expire on November 13th, 2005 > and I have > > been working on the new -02 draft. I am hoping to get a -02pre1 > > version out some time in the next two weeks with the final draft > > hopefully finished before the -01 expires. > > > > First of all, I wanted to mention that the standard itself is not > > changing. I haven't seen any significant issues or feedback > with the > > way it is setup now, therefore I do not plan on changing the actual > > format. > > The version number will therefore stay the same ("0.1"). > > > > HOWEVER, what I do plan on doing is making the actual draft more > > readable, addressing some of the comments from the > IETF-SMTP list and > > explaining how extensibility works (see my other list > message). I also > > want to add an ABNF section if possible. > > > > I also would like to know whether any other changes are necessary. > > > > Yakov > > > > _______________________________________________ > > abuse-feedback-report mailing list > > abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > > http://mipassoc.org/mailman/listinfo/abuse-feedback-report > > > > > _______________________________________________ > abuse-feedback-report mailing list > abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > http://mipassoc.org/mailman/listinfo/abuse-feedback-report > ************************************************************** > ************ > The information contained in this communication is > confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient > named above, and may be legally privileged. > > If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, > you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution > or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > > If you have received this communication in error, please > resend this communication to the sender and delete the > original message or any copy of it from your computer system. > > Thank You. > ************************************************************** > ************ > Received: from b.mail.sonic.net (b.mail.sonic.net [64.142.19.5]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9HHF0GB001592 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=OK) for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:15:01 -0700 Received: from [168.61.10.151] (SJC-Office-DHCP-151.Mail-Abuse.ORG [168.61.10.151]) (authenticated bits=0) by b.mail.sonic.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9HHEEBQ003674 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:14:15 -0700 In-Reply-To: <43532D12.5020807@solidmatrix.com> References: <43532D12.5020807@solidmatrix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <687AB216-535D-4209-8E27-1B84FE1820AF@mail-abuse.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Douglas Otis Subject: Re: [feedback-report] ARF Extensibility Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:14:12 -0700 To: Yakov Shafranovich X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: dotis@mail-abuse.org Cc: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:15:04 -0000 On Oct 16, 2005, at 9:48 PM, Yakov Shafranovich wrote: > > c. The new header must be in use on the Internet itself (as opposed to > some private network where only a set number of players participate > in). I find this definition offering little in the way of guidance. Of course the headers would be seen on the Internet, and not some private network. By limited number of players, what does that mean? Would Apple, Microsoft, and Sun be a limited number of players? -Doug Received: from a.mail.sonic.net (a.mail.sonic.net [64.142.16.245]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9HH76WC000360 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:07:06 -0700 Received: from [168.61.10.151] (SJC-Office-DHCP-151.Mail-Abuse.ORG [168.61.10.151]) (authenticated bits=0) by a.mail.sonic.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j9HH6KUM019901 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:06:21 -0700 In-Reply-To: <01ad01c5d33b$964606b0$027ba8c0@LAPTOP> References: <01ad01c5d33b$964606b0$027ba8c0@LAPTOP> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v734) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <482D847B-FB48-450E-BEFF-C8E630ECF7CA@mail-abuse.org> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Douglas Otis Subject: Re: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:06:18 -0700 To: Dennis Dayman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.734) X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: dotis@mail-abuse.org Cc: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 17:07:08 -0000 On Oct 17, 2005, at 9:55 AM, Dennis Dayman wrote: > Some people have expressed concerns in terms of confusion around > the naming > of the document. > > They state that the word "abuse" is a report-type and because the > reporting > standard reports on more than just abuse, we should change the > name to something like "Feedback-Report-Format" or something > other than a name that contains one of the report-types in it > Our interest in this report form is only with respect to abuse reporting. The draft also makes that the primary objective. There are other forms that are intended to be general purpose. The point was to make this report more specific for abuse reporting. -Doug Received: from thenose.net (thenose.net [63.96.51.162]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9HGuW55031330 for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 09:56:32 -0700 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=thenose.net; s=mail; x=1130172932; i=dennis@thenose.net; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:From:To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:In-Reply-To:Thread-Index; b=n1+wnIfA+4Kf1FJV8TRf+TnBR+jHcg7TvBJaiNyHT/eQynujNaGm5ZzZm1Qm9UDE LiPqT/Jn0oJJrDH77EWAI5H0Mi0GGOh2yMzi+M8gFoWcDB56wQer4h8e5ihmsrHg ICJFp70PvD6MFB8U+iwYPxJSAOt4oY2VExUVQ/lE8R8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=mail; d=thenose.net; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=hNFuWxtE9btQAajc47IBuWPH0NYffo9xBqFiBNmDFL7LxKzUkvtRTKIfOQIq0odeBwi/ZEebeJvevHbFDBz0ndfQPda+CgpaAgnpe4+PZuyWaVUcj1NVlOtyhOd4gvcCH62A9klfcGrxDkY41FS7rFXI5t2ORm61X08fziqf68E=; Received: from LAPTOP by thenose.net (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.2.R) with ESMTP id md50000017216.msg for ; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:55:31 -0500 From: "Dennis Dayman" To: "'Yakov Shafranovich'" , Subject: RE: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:55:32 -0500 Message-ID: <01ad01c5d33b$964606b0$027ba8c0@LAPTOP> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <43532D1D.8080005@solidmatrix.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcXS1iVEWD7zNqRYRh6Jxs+ku0GUugAZTBmg X-Authenticated-Sender: dennis@thenose.net X-Spam-Processed: mail.thenose.net, Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:55:31 -0500 (not processed: message from valid local sender) X-MDRemoteIP: 71.14.131.214 X-Return-Path: dennis@thenose.net X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-MDAV-Processed: mail.thenose.net, Mon, 17 Oct 2005 11:55:32 -0500 X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: dennis@thenose.net Cc: X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 16:56:44 -0000 Some people have expressed concerns in terms of confusion around the naming of the document. They state that the word "abuse" is a report-type and because the reporting standard reports on more than just abuse, we should change the name to something like "Feedback-Report-Format" or something other than a name that contains one of the report-types in it -Dennis > -----Original Message----- > From: abuse-feedback-report-bounces@mipassoc.org > [mailto:abuse-feedback-report-bounces@mipassoc.org] On Behalf > Of Yakov Shafranovich > Sent: Sunday, October 16, 2005 11:48 PM > To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > Subject: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft > > The existing -01 draft will expire on November 13th, 2005 and > I have been working on the new -02 draft. I am hoping to get > a -02pre1 version out some time in the next two weeks with > the final draft hopefully finished before the -01 expires. > > First of all, I wanted to mention that the standard itself is > not changing. I haven't seen any significant issues or > feedback with the way it is setup now, therefore I do not > plan on changing the actual format. > The version number will therefore stay the same ("0.1"). > > HOWEVER, what I do plan on doing is making the actual draft > more readable, addressing some of the comments from the > IETF-SMTP list and explaining how extensibility works (see my > other list message). I also want to add an ABNF section if possible. > > I also would like to know whether any other changes are necessary. > > Yakov > > _______________________________________________ > abuse-feedback-report mailing list > abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org > http://mipassoc.org/mailman/listinfo/abuse-feedback-report > Received: from manet.hmdnsgroup.com (manet.hmdnsgroup.com [63.247.133.3]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9H4nNpW022138 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:49:24 -0700 Received: from pool-70-22-27-115.balt.east.verizon.net ([70.22.27.115] helo=[192.168.1.2]) by manet.hmdnsgroup.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.52) id 1ERMvN-0001pD-Vj for abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:48:38 -0400 Message-ID: <43532D1D.8080005@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:48:29 -0400 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: yakovs@solidmatrix.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - manet.hmdnsgroup.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - mipassoc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - solidmatrix.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: yakovs@solidmatrix.com Subject: [feedback-report] Upcoming -02 ARF draft X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:49:25 -0000 The existing -01 draft will expire on November 13th, 2005 and I have been working on the new -02 draft. I am hoping to get a -02pre1 version out some time in the next two weeks with the final draft hopefully finished before the -01 expires. First of all, I wanted to mention that the standard itself is not changing. I haven't seen any significant issues or feedback with the way it is setup now, therefore I do not plan on changing the actual format. The version number will therefore stay the same ("0.1"). HOWEVER, what I do plan on doing is making the actual draft more readable, addressing some of the comments from the IETF-SMTP list and explaining how extensibility works (see my other list message). I also want to add an ABNF section if possible. I also would like to know whether any other changes are necessary. Yakov Received: from manet.hmdnsgroup.com (manet.hmdnsgroup.com [63.247.133.3]) by sb7.songbird.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j9H4nHCS022136 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2005 21:49:17 -0700 Received: from pool-70-22-27-115.balt.east.verizon.net ([70.22.27.115] helo=[192.168.1.2]) by manet.hmdnsgroup.com with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.52) id 1ERMvD-0001o8-46 for abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org; Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:48:27 -0400 Message-ID: <43532D12.5020807@solidmatrix.com> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 00:48:18 -0400 From: Yakov Shafranovich Organization: SolidMatrix Technologies, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.2 (Windows/20050317) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-HMDNSGroup-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: yakovs@solidmatrix.com X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - manet.hmdnsgroup.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - mipassoc.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - solidmatrix.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-SongbirdInformation: support@songbird.com for more information X-Songbird: Found to be clean X-Songbird-From: yakovs@solidmatrix.com Subject: [feedback-report] ARF Extensibility X-BeenThere: abuse-feedback-report@mipassoc.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Public forum for discussion on the feedback-report draft List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 04:49:25 -0000 There has been some talk off and on list about ARF extensibility. Since I am working on the -02 draft, I wanted to clear this up: There are two areas where ARF is extensible: new headers and new feed back types. Both are to be maintained via an IANA registry, however to make it easier additions to the registries will only need approval of an IESG designated expert - a process which is much shorter than the full IETF gamut. Additionally, I have been thinking about the following two set of guidelines for these registries (please let me know if I am off-key here): 1. Header registry - ARF headers included in part 2 of the format provide meta data which is not readily available in the original email message itself (part 3). Therefore to me it seems logical that the following guidelines should be used by the IESG expert in deciding on new additions to the header registry (which I will hopefully put into the -02 draft): a. The new header must provide metadata not already available in the email message itself (or readily). b. The new header must be intended for public use (two organizations using a private header have to relevance to the public Internet). c. The new header must be in use on the Internet itself (as opposed to some private network where only a set number of players participate in). d. The new header must not replicate information already provided by an existing header. 2. Feedback type registry: a. The new type must be unique and not covered by any existing type. b. The new type must be intended for public use. c. The new type must be intended for use on the Internet. These are some of my thoughts, and I am wondering if I am off-base here. Yakov