Subject: RE: [midcom] Out-of-Path Midcom Agents in framework-02

From: "Zmolek, Andrew (Andrew)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:31:51 -0600

...and your contribution below would be characterized as what?

The idea that we need more precise description of these middlebox
operations is a good one IMHO. Debate about the validity of middlebox
implementations belongs elsewhere. This group was chartered to deal with
middlebox communication and while contrarian commentary from a crusty
old purist is entertaining, I think it's time for you to find a new
forum to attack the use of NATs or ALGs themselves.

If the IPv6 network is as well-engineered as you hope, NATs and ALGs
will disappear on their own. Go grind your axe somewhere else, Keith. 

--Andy Zmolek
    Technology & Standards Engineer
      CTO Standards
        Avaya Inc.

            [email-masked]
              +1 720 444 4001

-----Original Message-----
From: Keith Moore [mailto:[email-masked]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2001 9:59 AM
To: Zmolek, Andrew (Andrew)
Cc: Pyda Srisuresh; Brian E Carpenter; Melinda Shore; Fleischman, Eric
W; Andrew Molitor; [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [midcom] Out-of-Path Midcom Agents in framework-02 

> And the idea of "end-to-end transparency" is debatable. If anything,
ALG+NAT
> provides a degree of transparency and typically compatibility across
IP
> realms. 

such barefaced lies do not contribute usefully to the discussion.

Keith

---

From: Keith Moore <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:45:24 -0400

> ...and your contribution below would be characterized as what?

exasperation.  my apologies to the group.

> The idea that we need more precise description of these middlebox operations
> is a good one IMHO.

IMHO also.  I think the group needs a very clear picture of what it is doing,
and having well-defined terms is a necessary first step.

but folks who don't understand the utility of end-to-end transparency aren't 
going to be able to evaluate the cost versus benefit of anything that this 
group proposes. 

Keith

p.s. Just to be clear, I was attacking *your misrepresenation* of NATs and ALGs,
not NATs and ALGs themselves.

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